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Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2687	Posted - 2014.08.12 02:22:00 - [1] - Quote Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 623	Posted - 2014.08.12 02:24:00 - [2] - Quote In!
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 409	Posted - 2014.08.12 02:27:00 - [3] - Quote Logistics suits - need more ehp* shield logi suits(caldari.. and minmatar in charlie) will need extra shield hp as armor buffer is vastly superior to shield aka no one runs shield - possably add sidearm *and cpu pg to compensate nanohives -compact nanohive is a level 2 hive i think it needs to be changed to be in-line with the level 4 armor repairing hive Drop uplinks - pg/cpu use a tad high -spawn time modifer makes spawnign a little too slow [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD come join the fun
Cass Caul 488	Posted - 2014.08.12 02:59:00 - [4] - Quote Main support suits: Logistics gk.0 and Logistics ck.0 HP shouldn't be a concern, as although survivability is important, their capacity for out-tanking Assault was a primary cause for Slayer-Logi being a thing. Nanite Injector: It's a ***** piece of **. It's been 2 years. The guys on the CPM0 were telling CCP even before it was released how aboslute game-breaking terrible it would be if you can just pick up anyone. ATM terribads and troll are the only ones that carry them. More than any thing else there needs to be a way to avoid some prick with a dirty needle. Secondly, the nanite injector is just terrible in that it only provides armor HP. It needs to provide Shield HP as well. Active Scanner: Needs to be re-balanced to detect medium frames. Best solution to that is to take away Gallente Logistics Scan Precision bonus and replace it with increased scan angle. The recharge/duration needs to be closer. Not so you can constantly spam it. So long as Gal-Logi has a bonus to precision Medium Frames cannot participate in stealth. 1.4-1.7 had many Assaults or Logistics running 2 dampeners. It was a much healthier game in that tacnet exchange. Removal of squad-shared passive scanning will also significantly improve the desireablity of Active Scanner Skill Bonus. It's been 9 months of me saying this: They need to be comprehensive. The Logistics suits need to be the best at using all equipment. Not just a single one. Fire the idiot, even if it was LogiBro, that thought it was a good idea or even acceptable to have these split up. It's not even complicated. - Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive maximum nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and 5% to repair amount per leveland +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to maximum spawn count per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level Math is easy, you're just stupid. The Empress of Alts
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 410	Posted - 2014.08.12 03:22:00 - [5] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Main support suits: Logistics gk.0 and Logistics ck.0 HP shouldn't be a concern, as although survivability is important, their capacity for out-tanking Assault was a primary cause for Slayer-Logi being a thing. Nanite Injector: It's a ***** piece of **. It's been 2 years. The guys on the CPM0 were telling CCP even before it was released how aboslute game-breaking terrible it would be if you can just pick up anyone. ATM terribads and troll are the only ones that carry them. More than any thing else there needs to be a way to avoid some prick with a dirty needle. Secondly, the nanite injector is just terrible in that it only provides armor HP. It needs to provide Shield HP as well. Active Scanner: Needs to be re-balanced to detect medium frames. Best solution to that is to take away Gallente Logistics Scan Precision bonus and replace it with increased scan angle. The recharge/duration needs to be closer. Not so you can constantly spam it. So long as Gal-Logi has a bonus to precision Medium Frames cannot participate in stealth. 1.4-1.7 had many Assaults or Logistics running 2 dampeners. It was a much healthier game in that tacnet exchange. Removal of squad-shared passive scanning will also significantly improve the desireablity of Active Scanner Skill Bonus. It's been 9 months of me saying this: They need to be comprehensive. The Logistics suits need to be the best at using all equipment. Not just a single one. Fire the idiot, even if it was LogiBro, that thought it was a good idea or even acceptable to have these split up. It's not even complicated. - Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive maximum nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and 5% to repair amount per leveland +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to maximum spawn count per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level the suit extra bonuses smell like homogenization but i can dig it. as for Injectors i disagree somewhat but maybe it should give 50% shield on top of the armor amount rezzed with.. just gotta finish people off so they cannot be rezzed.. ie.. flux nades are best for this if there is multiple..or if lonewolf double-tap them.. after the teabagging of course. i fully agree with removing shared passive scan.. active scan however needs to put the scanned targets on the Tacnet for ALL the team as well as give the intel-kill assist points from even NON squad assist kills.. maybe bump up the in-squad intel-kill assists to compensate(WP wont be a problem due to proposed WP Cose hike on Orbitals) PS. as for EHP on logi with Charlie assaults rocking UP TO 1600ish EHP logi do need a EHP buff seriously! [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD come join the fun
Cass Caul 488	Posted - 2014.08.12 03:29:00 - [6] - Quote How about you not make **** up. 399.05 shields and 987.75 armor on an Amarr Assault is the max you can dual tank an assault suit. that's 1386.8 Total HP. against Laser Weapons its 1504 Effective HP. You're a hundred off by the rarest weapon profile. An HP buff is only being requested by people that want to salvage their precious slayer-logis Math is easy, you're just stupid. The Empress of Alts
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 411	Posted - 2014.08.12 03:49:00 - [7] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: How about you not make **** up. 399.05 shields and 987.75 armor on an Amarr Assault is the max you can dual tank an assault suit. that's 1386.8 Total HP. against Laser Weapons its 1504 Effective HP. You're a hundred off by the rarest weapon profile. -Check the sig. An HP buff is only being requested by people that want to salvage their precious slayer-logis im talkign about charlie and i didnt make it up it was stated in a rather legit and math heavy thread hotfix charlie+amarr assault = 1608 EHP. ps. no need to be an *******, go take your meds. [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD come join the fun
Llast 326 An Arkhos 4110	Posted - 2014.08.12 03:52:00 - [8] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Cass Caul wrote: How about you not make **** up. 399.05 shields and 987.75 armor on an Amarr Assault is the max you can dual tank an assault suit. that's 1386.8 Total HP. against Laser Weapons its 1504 Effective HP. You're a hundred off by the rarest weapon profile. -Check the sig. An HP buff is only being requested by people that want to salvage their precious slayer-logis im talkign about charlie and i didnt make it up it was stated in a rather legit and math heavy thread hotfix charlie+amarr assault = 1608 EHP. ps. no need to be an *******, go take your meds. EHP = Effective Hit Points and varies by the weapon profile used against you. Laser at 120/80 is different from CR at whatever it is i forgetGÇª you get the point though? KRRROOOOOOM
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1244	Posted - 2014.08.12 03:56:00 - [9] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross I run support logi and AV the vast majority of the time and dabble in Commando, Scout, and Assaults. For context, my comments are made in light of the recently released Hotfix Charlie notes as well. Logi Suit Balancing and Optimization: 1) If we go with Rattati's concept that frames tiers should have standardized slot layouts then we clearly need to ensure the suits are carrying the appropriate reservoir of CPU and PG. I suspect all Logi suits should be tweaked a bit but the most obvious concern is the Cal Logi - if you drop a low slot you clearly need to increase the CPU of the suit. 2) Survivability should be competitive with other suits...if you can't survive long enough to deliver equipment, reps, and revives then you have limited viability. Broadly, buffer will be more important than regen and regen is arguably more important to assault flavor suits. Recommendation would be to buff the base tank style of the racial suit or give an efficacy bonus to extenders and plates per logi level. 3) Equipment bonuses (beyond CPU/PG reduction) should clearly be broadened to more than a single equipment flavor which clearly advantages some racial options over others, i.e. Min Logi. I would recommend taking a look at Cass Caul's proposal on broadening the bonus as a start point. Equipment Comments 1) It may create some hate eye pointed at me but we should make RE's an option to carry in the Grenade slot instead of an equipment slot. Hear me out...you skill into it via the weapon tree and it uses the same access skills as the grenade. Why is it considered an equipment slot? There is also something about making you choose between your Core Locus, Wyrikomi AV grenade, or standard variant RE (that is more lethal then either of those two previously noted offerings!). Commando Optimization: 1) Recommend that Min / Cal get share the damage bonus on Swarms and Amarr / Gal share the damage bonus on PLC. These pushes the needle slightly in favor of the Commando suppression / combat support role. Swarm Launchers 1) Velocity of swarm missiles needs to noticeably increase...Drop ships outrunning swarms borders on the ridiculous. I'm pretty deep into SP investment for SLs and honestly the damage they deliver now is adequate but delivering the damage to a drop ship in particular is very sketchy. 2) Lock range of SLs need a very mild increase. Recommendation would be to increase the lock range to 200m...the additional 25m's of range would be very well received and open up engagement opportunities noticeably. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3916	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:01:00 - [10] - Quote 100% lack of confidence in Apothecary Za'ki (poor track record). 100% confidence in Shayz (stellar track record). - 50M SP Scout Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2689	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:02:00 - [11] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: How about you not make **** up. 399.05 shields and 987.75 armor on an Amarr Assault is the max you can dual tank an assault suit. that's 1386.8 Total HP. against Laser Weapons its 1504 Effective HP. You're a hundred off by the rarest weapon profile. -Check the sig. An HP buff is only being requested by people that want to salvage their precious slayer-logis I'd like to request/reiterate that we keep this thread constructive, courteous, and on topic. Please do feel free to call out instances where flawed data is seen, and where/why that data is flawed specifically but let's aim to do so diplomatically and with an eye to conversation. Also, on the note of calling out flawed data, I can state empirically that the final statement of the quoted post Cass Caul wrote: An HP buff is only being requested by people that want to salvage their precious slayer-logis is demonstrably inaccurate. Three data points indicating that; 1. I have never been a 'slayer logi' 2. I have long held, and still hold, that logi survivability is in an inadequate space and needs reworked (all of this is within the context of running a full support fit) 3. I am not the only player numbers 1 & 2 apply to. Precision, especially when it comes to numbers, is useful and welcome, but no amount of precision can create a constructive discourse if we let the environment turn overtly hostile, let's focus on precluding such an event. Thanks, Cross EDIT: Despite my above post quoting Cass it should NOT be misconstrued as a request only applying to Appia, it is a general thread request to all posters. Let us all please keep a focus on constructive presentation and information so that threads like this can be more effective and frequent. The more constructive the thread, the more useful, and the more often the CPM will be able to employ them and bring community input to CCP. Conversely the more hostility and hyperbole the more time and energy will be spent sifting through the dross to get the actual feedback and the less resources remain to do the actual work that benefits the game and the community. To steal an old movie quote help me help you See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 412	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:02:00 - [12] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Cass Caul wrote: How about you not make **** up. 399.05 shields and 987.75 armor on an Amarr Assault is the max you can dual tank an assault suit. that's 1386.8 Total HP. against Laser Weapons its 1504 Effective HP. You're a hundred off by the rarest weapon profile. -Check the sig. An HP buff is only being requested by people that want to salvage their precious slayer-logis im talkign about charlie and i didnt make it up it was stated in a rather legit and math heavy thread hotfix charlie+amarr assault = 1608 EHP. ps. no need to be an ******, go take your meds. EHP = Effective Hit Points and varies by the weapon profile used against you. Laser at 120/80 is different from CR at whatever it is i forgetGÇª you get the point though? every one uses RR or CR which are both baller VS armor so were boned either way but yes i probably read wrong and mixed up EHP and raw HP but i still feel that with the new assaults huge hp boost logi will be left in the dust and no one will want to play them.. save a few hardcore logi players cough* me cough but i did recall seeing a ccp mentioning they might be looking at Logi for Delta.. so fingers crossed. [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD come join the fun
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 412	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:06:00 - [13] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Cass Caul wrote: How about you not make **** up. 399.05 shields and 987.75 armor on an Amarr Assault is the max you can dual tank an assault suit. that's 1386.8 Total HP. against Laser Weapons its 1504 Effective HP. You're a hundred off by the rarest weapon profile. -Check the sig. An HP buff is only being requested by people that want to salvage their precious slayer-logis I'd like to request/reiterate that we keep this thread constructive, courteous, and on topic. Please do feel free to call out instances where flawed data is seen, and where/why that data is flawed specifically but let's aim to do so diplomatically and with an eye to conversation. Also, on the note of calling out flawed data, I can state empirically that the final statement of the quoted post Cass Caul wrote: An HP buff is only being requested by people that want to salvage their precious slayer-logis is demonstrably inaccurate. Three data points indicating that; 1. I have never been a 'slayer logi' 2. I have long held, and still hold, that logi survivability is in an inadequate space and needs reworked (all of this is within the context of running a full support fit) 3. I am not the only player numbers 1 & 2 apply to. Precision, especially when it comes to numbers, is useful and welcome, but no amount of precision can create a constructive discourse if we let the environment turn overtly hostile, let's focus on precluding such an event. Thanks, Cross i play in a somewhat support+agressive way.. i have my 2 drop uplinks running i try to be with the frey so i can get the reps and drop the hives rez the dead and maybe get a few kills.. most of my WP is from uplink+rez as i cap out on Points/time on Repair tool alot which sucks.. of which i do hope they raise the cap when they increase the orbital bombardment WP cost from 2500 to 5000(proposed, i counter proposed 3000-4000 WP to the ccp post) [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD come join the fun
Jack 3enimble Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 157	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:08:00 - [14] - Quote I like the ideas i've read. Now one thing that bugs the hell out of me is that my logi Ck.0 is so damn slow. I have to use a CPU mod since my suit was robbed of CPU and I carry proto equipment. In the other 3 lows I NEED to have a reactive plate, cardiac reg and a kincat so I can keep up with the heavy I'm repping. I'd love to see my logi get a little bit faster.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 415	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:10:00 - [15] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: 100% lack of confidence in Apothecary Za'ki (poor track record). 100% confidence in Shayz (stellar track record). - 50M SP Scout idk where that lack of confidence came from.. but yes shayz is a good logi and quite a few of his posts have helped me improve little by little. as for your being a scout do you even have logi experance? [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD come join the fun
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2689	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:14:00 - [16] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 100% lack of confidence in Apothecary Za'ki (poor track record). 100% confidence in Shayz (stellar track record). - 50M SP Scout idk where that lack of confidence came from.. but yes shayz is a good logi and quite a few of his posts have helped me improve little by little. as for your being a scout do you even have logi experance? I believe Adipems scout reference was simply a means of provided the context for feedback that I requested in my OP. And while I can fully understand the desire to respond directly to his post I'd like to request that we refocus the thread back to the primary subject rather than a debate regarding any given players specific credibility. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 415	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:14:00 - [17] - Quote Jack 3enimble wrote: I like the ideas i've read. Now one thing that bugs the hell out of me is that my logi Ck.0 is so damn slow. I have to use a CPU mod since my suit was robbed of CPU and I carry proto equipment. In the other 3 lows I NEED to have a reactive plate, cardiac reg and a kincat so I can keep up with the heavy I'm repping. I'd love to see my logi get a little bit faster. i couldnt agree more. i hate how slow we are.. though granted minmatar logi gets it easier with longer range tool. and i have noticed caldari did get shafted on CPU :/ even at advanced level.. though at standard level with standard gear there is no problems. perhaps logi need a bonus to movement speed while weilding/useing repair tool to compensate? [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD come join the fun
Alena Ventrallis S0VER31GN 1542	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:23:00 - [18] - Quote Logo mko A fix to the "false positive" revive indicators. Easier lock on mechanic for rep tools (prioritizing in crowds, etc.) Actual bonuses on equipment skills, like more precision on scanners, more nanites on nanohives, more reps on repair tool, etc. Rattati has spoken. CalScout hitbox is fine. You're gun game is broken.
Jack 3enimble Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 158	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:32:00 - [19] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Logo mko A fix to the "false positive" revive indicators. Easier lock on mechanic for rep tools (prioritizing in crowds, etc.) Actual bonuses on equipment skills, like more precision on scanners, more nanites on nanohives, more reps on repair tool, etc. The Minlogi + sentinel combo is arguebly the best duo in the game, because of the bonus the min has on the reptool and the speedy nature of the suit compared with 4 equipment slots. Now imagine a Core focus reptool with the suit bonus of Pro Min logi and a extra lvl 5 reptool operation bonus. To me that sounds OP and if people would call that OP they're right for once.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 416	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:33:00 - [20] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross I run support logi and AV the vast majority of the time and dabble in Commando, Scout, and Assaults. For context, my comments are made in light of the recently released Hotfix Charlie notes as well. Logi Suit Balancing and Optimization: 1) If we go with Rattati's concept that frames tiers should have standardized slot layouts then we clearly need to ensure the suits are carrying the appropriate reservoir of CPU and PG. I suspect all Logi suits should be tweaked a bit but the most obvious concern is the Cal Logi - if you drop a low slot you clearly need to increase the CPU of the suit. 2) Survivability should be competitive with other suits...if you can't survive long enough to deliver equipment, reps, and revives then you have limited viability. Broadly, buffer will be more important than regen and regen is arguably more important to assault flavor suits. Recommendation would be to buff the base tank style of the racial suit or give an efficacy bonus to extenders and plates per logi level. 3) Equipment bonuses (beyond CPU/PG reduction) should clearly be broadened to more than a single equipment flavor which clearly advantages some racial options over others, i.e. Min Logi. I would recommend taking a look at Cass Caul's proposal on broadening the bonus as a start point. Equipment Comments 1) It may create some hate eye pointed at me but we should make RE's an option to carry in the Grenade slot instead of an equipment slot. Hear me out...you skill into it via the weapon tree and it uses the same access skills as the grenade. Why is it considered an equipment slot? There is also something about making you choose between your Core Locus, Wyrikomi AV grenade, or standard variant RE (that is more lethal then either of those two previously noted offerings!). Commando Optimization: 1) Recommend that Min / Cal get share the damage bonus on Swarms and Amarr / Gal share the damage bonus on PLC. These pushes the needle slightly in favor of the Commando suppression / combat support role. Swarm Launchers 1) Velocity of swarm missiles needs to noticeably increase...Drop ships outrunning swarms borders on the ridiculous. I'm pretty deep into SP investment for SLs and honestly the damage they deliver now is adequate but delivering the damage to a drop ship in particular is very sketchy. 2) Lock range of SLs need a very mild increase. Recommendation would be to increase the lock range to 200m...the additional 25m's of range would be very well received and open up engagement opportunities noticeably. this feedback seems to be excellent save for the RE in grenade slot(good idea but not sure how it would work technically as needs 2 buttons to operate RE's. as for commando i can agree to that as gal/min get 4 while cal/am only get 3.. and as commandos we can typically forgo even thinking about sidearms on them.. i do strongly believe Commando should be more specialized combat support having their main rifle+and AV weapon at all times as they are an important part of a team yet sadly they are under used as most heavy suit users prefer sentinel+rifle+side+nade for the stupid raw hp and the heavy damage reduction(which in charlie should be harder to do hopfully having more heavy suit users play commando) [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD come join the fun

Cass Caul 500	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:34:00 - [21] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: 1) It may create some hate eye pointed at me but we should make RE's an option to carry in the Grenade slot instead of an equipment slot. Hear me out...you skill into it via the weapon tree and it uses the same access skills as the grenade. Why is it considered an equipment slot? There is also something about making you choose between your Core Locus, Wyrikomi AV grenade, or standard variant RE (that is more lethal then either of those two previously noted offerings!) And how would you propose one uses the grenade slot to activate remotes? Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Swarm Launchers 1) Velocity of swarm missiles needs to noticeably increase...Drop ships outrunning swarms borders on the ridiculous. I'm pretty deep into SP investment for SLs and honestly the damage they deliver now is adequate but delivering the damage to a drop ship in particular is very sketchy. 2) Lock range of SLs need a very mild increase. Recommendation would be to increase the lock range to 200m...the additional 25m's of range would be very well received and open up engagement opportunities noticeably. Anything less than 300m is just ineffectual. Lock-on range and travel-speed are nearly a singular issue Bah! I nearly forgot about my Logistics ak.0. I was wondering why a Logi would carry swarms. Math is easy, you're just stupid. The Empress of Alts
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 416	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:37:00 - [22] - Quote Jack 3enimble wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Logo mko A fix to the "false positive" revive indicators. Easier lock on mechanic for rep tools (prioritizing in crowds, etc.) Actual bonuses on equipment skills, like more precision on scanners, more nanites on nanohives, more reps on repair tool, etc. The Minlogi + sentinel combo is arguebly the best duo in the game, because of the bonus the min has on the reptool and the speedy nature of the suit compared with 4 equipment slots. Now imagine a Core focus reptool with the suit bonus of Pro Min logi and a extra lvl 5 reptool operation bonus. To me that sounds OP and if people would call that OP they're right for once. i agree somewhat because of rep+range but if we are fit for HP we are just as slow as any other logi.. and if useing core focused 7.5m range+min-logi bonus its still a very short distance and even heavy suits will out pace you and then suddenly get out of range and die cause of no reps/fail reps.. the idea of logi having a full homogenized set of bonuses to all equipment is starting to sound much better every minute i see the flawless logic behind that suggestion [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD come join the fun
Andris Kronis Legio DXIV 60	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:39:00 - [23] - Quote Min-logi = me = all possible roles including assault dropship pilot when it absolutely has to be there ... right now. I agree with comments about ehp buffs, regardless of minutae about maths. Its hard to support your buddies when you are dead. I agree that some sort of logi role homogenisation would be good, allowing logi to excel at one support role and compete with the other logi suits, leaving the remainder of non logi suits a close 3rd in capability. Switching equipment seems laggy with me, it could be that there is a server side request to check if I have the equipment, making it slower (about 350 miliseconds) and if so I expect there is little I can do aboout that. Seemless switching between logi equipment would be a boon. A massive change in passive EWAR mechanics would help all classes but especially the fragile logi suits. Give the vehicles an appropriate signature. Make the vehicles show up at a much greater distance. Make all suits more scannable at closer ranges, the equation should be fairly simple to get right. If a scout is standing next to me I expect to be able to see him on my passive, at that point he is taking up a significant portion of my passive scan radius and it should be obvious he is there. Tanks are especially bad for zooming in at high speed with no signature until they are within meters of you. Better EWAR capabilities for Logi suits would be much appreciated but I don't have an exact mechanic in mind. It seems like a dedicated support character should be able to do better than it currently does. While you are at it with EWAR, please make all hostile and allied turrets show up on TACNET and in the overview map, nice big glowing icons, all the time please. They have infinite ammunition and lots of HP, we should be able to detect them at great distances. Anyone standing within 10m of a drop link should show up on it's passive scan, it can see them (except for cloaked scouts though) people camping links is silly, it should be noticable. Let us restock HAV and LAV ammunition with prototype nanohives. Just a little bit. Give the logi "feedback repair" while actively repairing other suits with a rep tool. % based on suits and skills of course. 5-10% total perhaps? From the AV support role, Swarm Launcher missiles fly far too slow, they can already be easily defeated by going round obstacles, they should at least be able to catch up with fleeing vehicles much faster than they currently do. Reduce the fire rate of all (non assault) scrambler rifles by 50%. If no one has told you already, they are being massively abused, people are using modded controllers etc and firing at the same rate as an assault scrambler for (approx) X2 the DPS of any rifle weapon. Not directly related to Logi I know but thought I would slip it in here ;) "Corporation slogan coming to a sig near you"
Midnight Cardinal UNITED MERCINARY AND PILOTS ALLIANCE 7	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:41:00 - [24] - Quote Main Role: Support Scout (And before all of you scout haters start harping, please know that I seriously run a scout suit to SUPPORT my squad. You will not see me in a bricked out scout suit, running around the frontline Cloakgunning everyone. I do old-fashioned infiltration, and I am never using the shotgun/cloak combo, regardless of its effectiveness.) Equipment: Nanohives- For nanohives I must rely on the information the prior posters have given. I only run Hives on demand, as they are a detriment to any infiltration tasks I am assigned. Drop Uplinks- Drop Uplinks should have a minimal restock at supply depots. Perhaps half of the original amount you can carry. Nanite Injectors- I don't agree that these should restore some sheilds, but perhaps when used on a downed teammate, they can give a temporary boost to shield regeneration speed or total amount recieved upon recharge. Again, only for a short time. Active Scanners- For the advanced varients, I think a slight boost in the time you can see an enemy signature should be implemented on the regular one, while the Advanced Stable varient retains the 5sec scan time. (I figured this due to the Stable varients costing less CPU and PG for the same performance, but it's just my perspective) Repair Tools- Refer to the real Logistics characters, I use these when my squadlead says he needs a little 'Umph'. Cloaks- Honestly, I think these are fine. I can run an advanced cloak on an advanced suit with minimal skills, and I can still pack things like REs, Enhanced Ferroscale, Enhanced Shield Extender, Basic Shield Recharger, and a Basic Profile Dampener. Alongside my Advanced Combat Rifle and Basic Nova Knives, if you're not full or even near proto heavy, or a scout of equal or greater caliber, you're mine. Remote Explosives- I hate that I can use these as primary weapons, so please implement some sort of throw distance limit. Proximity Mines- Could these be a little more powerful? I'm not looking for tanks to explode while I'm using basic, but making a dent would be nice. ADV/PROTO are the varients that should keep vehiclists in their place. Make advanced give LAVs a two-dollar tune up, and put a nice change of color on a tank's paintjob. Prototype should, as it should, destroy all but the most outrageous armor counts. I don't mean by themselves, you should still have to use multiples. Grenades- Flux) When you've made shield tanking possible again, we'll talk. AV) Little increase to damage, slight damage to Infantry. It's still an explosive, so a 50-70 damage to infantry sheilds or armor shouldn't **** too many people off. Locus) I'm so not touching this. Whomever uses these, get your ass over here. Your heart pumps faster, you feel the power and energy of pure adrenaline. You're in my sights, you're gone in a moment.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 419	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:44:00 - [25] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Logo mko A fix to the "false positive" revive indicators. Easier lock on mechanic for rep tools (prioritizing in crowds, etc.) Actual bonuses on equipment skills, like more precision on scanners, more nanites on nanohives, more reps on repair tool, etc. omg yes.. its a nightmare to target a low armor suit in a Fuster Cluck of dropsuits.. i thought the false positives on revive indicators was on all suits wielding an injector? hmm interesting [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD come join the fun
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 419	Posted - 2014.08.12 04:51:00 - [26] - Quote Andris Kronis wrote: Min-logi = me = all possible roles including assault dropship pilot when it absolutely has to be there ... right now. I agree with comments about ehp buffs, regardless of minutae about maths. Its hard to support your buddies when you are dead. I agree that some sort of logi role homogenisation would be good, allowing logi to excel at one support role and compete with the other logi suits, leaving the remainder of non logi suits a close 3rd in capability. Switching equipment seems laggy with me, it could be that there is a server side request to check if I have the equipment, making it slower (about 350 miliseconds) and if so I expect there is little I can do aboout that. Seemless switching between logi equipment would be a boon. A massive change in passive EWAR mechanics would help all classes but especially the fragile logi suits. Give the vehicles an appropriate signature. Make the vehicles show up at a much greater distance. Make all suits more scannable at closer ranges, the equation should be fairly simple to get right. If a scout is standing next to me I expect to be able to see him on my passive, at that point he is taking up a significant portion of my passive scan radius and it should be obvious he is there. Tanks are especially bad for zooming in at high speed with no signature until they are within meters of you. Better EWAR capabilities for Logi suits would be much appreciated but I don't have an exact mechanic in mind. It seems like a dedicated support character should be able to do better than it currently does. While you are at it with EWAR, please make all hostile and allied turrets show up on TACNET and in the overview map, nice big glowing icons, all the time please. They have infinite ammunition and lots of HP, we should be able to detect them at great distances. Anyone standing within 10m of a drop link should show up on it's passive scan, it can see them (except for cloaked scouts though) people camping links is silly, it should be noticable. Let us restock HAV and LAV ammunition with prototype nanohives. Just a little bit. Give the logi "feedback repair" while actively repairing other suits with a rep tool. % based on suits and skills of course. 5-10% total perhaps? From the AV support role, Swarm Launcher missiles fly far too slow, they can already be easily defeated by going round obstacles, they should at least be able to catch up with fleeing vehicles much faster than they currently do. Reduce the fire rate of all (non assault) scrambler rifles by 50%. If no one has told you already, they are being massively abused, people are using modded controllers etc and firing at the same rate as an assault scrambler for (approx) X2 the DPS of any rifle weapon. Not directly related to Logi I know but thought I would slip it in here ;) i agree on the SCR its like 800 dps on the semi auto varient while all other rifles are like 400-500. and +1 for proto hives resupplying vehicles.. perhaps buff vehicle repair amount for repair tools thus effectively giving leeway to buffer tank instead of active tank HAVs? as for equipment switching it does seem slow.. only time it isnt is when im in the middle of the Revive animation and i open the menu to switch to rep-tool to repair the guy as he/she is getting up.. but i HATE the sprint bug associated with tryign to sprint in the middle of an equipment animation (see tech/bug forum for thread/video) [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1246	Posted - 2014.08.12 05:07:00 - [27] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: 1) It may create some hate eye pointed at me but we should make RE's an option to carry in the Grenade slot instead of an equipment slot. Hear me out...you skill into it via the weapon tree and it uses the same access skills as the grenade. Why is it considered an equipment slot? There is also something about making you choose between your Core Locus, Wyrikomi AV grenade, or standard variant RE (that is more lethal then either of those two previously noted offerings!) And how would you propose one uses the grenade slot to activate remotes? Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Swarm Launchers 1) Velocity of swarm missiles needs to noticeably increase...Drop ships outrunning swarms borders on the ridiculous. I'm pretty deep into SP investment for SLs and honestly the damage they deliver now is adequate but delivering the damage to a drop ship in particular is very sketchy. 2) Lock range of SLs need a very mild increase. Recommendation would be to increase the lock range to 200m...the additional 25m's of range would be very well received and open up engagement opportunities noticeably. Anything less than 300m is just ineffectual. Lock-on range and travel-speed are nearly a singular issue Bah! I nearly forgot about my Logistics ak.0. I was wondering why a Logi would carry swarms. Good comments. 1) Short answer on RE "one buttoning" is I don't know. I'm just commenting on the fact the RE is skilled via the weapons tree and is the only equipment option that doesn't give some kinda of bonus based on racial / role bonuses. As for ideally how I would like to see the RE be used in a 'nade slot you have a few options (most of which I assume you won't like ) such as using the grenade button essentially as a weapon switch function for REs, or perhaps it's an instant toss (similar to nades or REs in hand now) and if you want to go to the detonator you use normal control schemata or if you've emplaced your limit the detonator automatically comes up. Either way it's not a major issue for me....toss range is more sketchy as far as REs go. Honestly, I would like you to have to emplace them by holding down the trigger for 2 or 3 seconds (with skill investment to bring the time down). 2) Trust me...way on board with longer lock range. Is 300m the right range, I don't know, but I figured that 200m was much more palatable than 300m since that would be a pretty serious adjustment. Again...missile velocity is a higher priority for me personally but they both really need to be buffed. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2774	Posted - 2014.08.12 05:19:00 - [28] - Quote Equipment I worry about making Logistics too homogenized by giving them bonuses to ALL equipment. Their bonuses are however a bit too focused so I'd like to see that fleshed out. Essentially I feel that the Repair Tool is the quintessential Logistics tool and I think you would be hard pressed to find a Logi that doesn't have one on most of their fits. That being said, I think we see an excess of Minmatar Logistics because of this fact, because their bonuses to the repair tool is very good. I'd like to see all Logistics receive not only the reduction to fitting, but also gain the Minmatar's bonuses to repair rate and range of the repair tool. The Minmatar would then need a replacement bonus, and I'd prefer something more like the a bonus to remote explosives and proximity mines, to hammer in that sense of "Indirect Combat Support". This gives all Logi suits bonuses to at least 2 equipment as well as the reduction bonus to all equipment. General Logi Bonus: Reduction to Equipment Fitting Cost Bonus to Range and Rate of Repair Tools Gallente Logi Bonus: Bonus to Scanners Precision and Duration Caldari Logi Bonus to Nanohive Rate and Capacity Amarr Logi Bonus Bonus to Uplink Speed and Capacity Minmatar Bonus Bonus to Remote/Proxy Damage and Carry Capacity Defenses Logi suits also need to be brought up with the Assaults in terms of survivability. At the very least I'd like to see the same amount of addition eHP added to Logis as their Assault counterparts. This is doubly important with the addition of additional Assault slots as well as the buff to Light Damage mods, lest the Logistics quickly fall behind and spend most of their time dead on the ground. The increase to slots and fitting make Assaults difficult to beat in terms of defense, but you need to take a VERY careful look at how fitting is working with Logistics and make sure that it can fit slightly inferior but comparable defense to their Assault brothers.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 420	Posted - 2014.08.12 05:19:00 - [29] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Cass Caul wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: 1) It may create some hate eye pointed at me but we should make RE's an option to carry in the Grenade slot instead of an equipment slot. Hear me out...you skill into it via the weapon tree and it uses the same access skills as the grenade. Why is it considered an equipment slot? There is also something about making you choose between your Core Locus, Wyrikomi AV grenade, or standard variant RE (that is more lethal then either of those two previously noted offerings!) And how would you propose one uses the grenade slot to activate remotes? Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Swarm Launchers 1) Velocity of swarm missiles needs to noticeably increase...Drop ships outrunning swarms borders on the ridiculous. I'm pretty deep into SP investment for SLs and honestly the damage they deliver now is adequate but delivering the damage to a drop ship in particular is very sketchy. 2) Lock range of SLs need a very mild increase. Recommendation would be to increase the lock range to 200m...the additional 25m's of range would be very well received and open up engagement opportunities noticeably. Anything less than 300m is just ineffectual. Lock-on range and travel-speed are nearly a singular issue Bah! I nearly forgot about my Logistics ak.0. I was wondering why a Logi would carry swarms. Good comments. 1) Short answer on RE "one buttoning" is I don't know. I'm just commenting on the fact the RE is skilled via the weapons tree and is the only equipment option that doesn't give some kinda of bonus based on racial / role bonuses. As for ideally how I would like to see the RE be used in a 'nade slot you have a few options (most of which I assume you won't like ) such as using the grenade button essentially as a weapon switch function for REs, or perhaps it's an instant toss (similar to nades or REs in hand now) and if you want to go to the detonator you use normal control schemata or if you've emplaced your limit the detonator automatically comes up. Either way it's not a major issue for me....toss range is more sketchy as far as REs go. Honestly, I would like you to have to emplace them by holding down the trigger for 2 or 3 seconds (with skill investment to bring the time down). 2) Trust me...way on board with longer lock range. Is 300m the right range, I don't know, but I figured that 200m was much more palatable than 300m since that would be a pretty serious adjustment. Again...missile velocity is a higher priority for me personally but they both really need to be buffed. perhaps Tap to throw.. Hold to Blow? [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 420	Posted - 2014.08.12 05:23:00 - [30] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Cass Caul wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: 1) It may create some hate eye pointed at me but we should make RE's an option to carry in the Grenade slot instead of an equipment slot. Hear me out...you skill into it via the weapon tree and it uses the same access skills as the grenade. Why is it considered an equipment slot? There is also something about making you choose between your Core Locus, Wyrikomi AV grenade, or standard variant RE (that is more lethal then either of those two previously noted offerings!) And how would you propose one uses the grenade slot to activate remotes? Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Swarm Launchers 1) Velocity of swarm missiles needs to noticeably increase...Drop ships outrunning swarms borders on the ridiculous. I'm pretty deep into SP investment for SLs and honestly the damage they deliver now is adequate but delivering the damage to a drop ship in particular is very sketchy. 2) Lock range of SLs need a very mild increase. Recommendation would be to increase the lock range to 200m...the additional 25m's of range would be very well received and open up engagement opportunities noticeably. Anything less than 300m is just ineffectual. Lock-on range and travel-speed are nearly a singular issue Bah! I nearly forgot about my Logistics ak.0. I was wondering why a Logi would carry swarms. Good comments. 1) Short answer on RE "one buttoning" is I don't know. I'm just commenting on the fact the RE is skilled via the weapons tree and is the only equipment option that doesn't give some kinda of bonus based on racial / role bonuses. As for ideally how I would like to see the RE be used in a 'nade slot you have a few options (most of which I assume you won't like ) such as using the grenade button essentially as a weapon switch function for REs, or perhaps it's an instant toss (similar to nades or REs in hand now) and if you want to go to the detonator you use normal control schemata or if you've emplaced your limit the detonator automatically comes up. Either way it's not a major issue for me....toss range is more sketchy as far as REs go. Honestly, I would like you to have to emplace them by holding down the trigger for 2 or 3 seconds (with skill investment to bring the time down). 2) Trust me...way on board with longer lock range. Is 300m the right range, I don't know, but I figured that 200m was much more palatable than 300m since that would be a pretty serious adjustment. Again...missile velocity is a higher priority for me personally but they both really need to be buffed. the 2 to 3 seconds to place them would effectivly kill their use vs HAV's or tossing some onto a low flying dropship [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD

Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 195	Posted - 2014.08.12 07:51:00 - [31] - Quote Minmatar Logi mk.0, Amarr Logi ak.0, Caldari Logi C/1(adv). I also run Minmatar assault and scout. I am able to run proto ( as above ) but in all honesty I tend to run adv and scale back on the modules to ensure good equipment goes on. It also helps keep the cost down. For Minmatar I focus on mobility over tanking out my suit using biotics, ferroscale and reps in the lows. Then shield extenders and recharge/energiser(?) in highs. I always carry a 6 kin dual beam, proto needle then one of hive/link. At proto it'll be both. At this point it is basic CR, to help keep the PG/CPU costs down and I have prof 4 so basic is still good IF I need to dish it out. This gets me about 550HP with a reasonable walk/sprint speed. This is my support logi and the main suit I use. Before we go any further I would like to say a couple of things. Over the 2 years I have been here I have heard some **** spouted on these forums about logi's. Please do not bring up "slayer logi" nothing we have at the moment compares to those fits of 12 month ago and any real logi ran pretty much as they do now focussing on equipment and support. Just because I am a logi DOES NOT mean I can't kill you it also does not make me a "slayer". Also playing asupport role does not mean I can't hack, kill, drive vehicles, blow you up, blow your toy tanks up etc With that off my chest. A logi's main bonus should be to the rep tool, we can argue about shield and armour of course, but every logi then would have the opportunity to rep efficiently giving the chance for all logi's to be on the field. THEN each logi could do with a flavour whatever that may be. Pokey threw a few ideas around a couple of weeks back, which were good. Logi's could either do with a small HP buff or look at rep/recharge for armour or shield. I am not wanting HF Charlie assault HP value. Any logi is a target because of the support they can give can turn the tide of a battle. I am after a little boost to allow me to fulfil my role. Scouts have less hit point but for that advantage they get a bunch of e war to facilatate it. I have EQ slots if I don't get a HP buff then drop the price of equipment or something. I understand people's frustrations with multiple logi's and heavies murdering people but they are counterable. I would love for the lock on when using the rep tool to be less clunky. When there is a group of people I often end up repping the wrong person and often have to reposition to get a lock again. The dual beam allows for some hilarious moments as you try an d tag the second person and some one walks in front. I would like to be able to tag people with the command wheel to make it easier to pick out squad mates etc Enough rambling, more later. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers 769	Posted - 2014.08.12 08:00:00 - [32] - Quote I could go on about all the things that are really wrong, like the false revive indicators and the ****** reptool lock on mechanics and the laggy equipment selection etc. But there is not much point in talking about actually fixing anything in Dust, as that won't ever happen, so I'll stick to things Rattati might be able to affect by fiddling with some numbers server side. How to actually improve the experience and effectiveness of the Logistics role? Despite some people jumping up and crying about slayer logis (what slayer logis? I think you'll find they, for the most part, moved over to scout suits months ago) I do think the survivability of the Logi suits needs to be looked at. Now, a direct HP buff is not the only way to do that, necessarily, as there are other things that affect survivability, like regen or resists for instance. Now, for an example, a reasonable amount of resistance to projectiles/explosives would serve a minlogi well in the role CCP has assigned it as the designated heavy repper. Queue the "But that's OP!" What's the point in having a support role in a game if most that support player is good for is providing kills for the enemy team? I won't claim to have some sort of magical solution to this, and I personally don't like this trend that we're on of HP buff for one class, then another, then another... straight up HP buffs shouldn't be the only solution to everything. Anyway, I am just going to assume that actual buff to logi suits won't happen, as there will always be people who will start screaming about slayer logis (which, again, haven't really been an issue since 1.8, but who cares to consider that). And CCP does seem to listen to the loudest mob anyway. So, how to improve the Logistics ROLE without buffing the oh so scary logistic suit? How about, for a start, improve equipment, make it more worthwhile to carry even in a suit that doesn't have a bonus to that specific equipment. Also, decrease the cost of the equipment, why does the most fragile suit in the game have to be the most expensive by far (when, you know, actually fitted to fill its role)? Make one of the scout suits' equipment slots cloak only, so that people won't find it as easy to cover the Logistics role without actually using a Logi suit? I even do that myself, I don't use a cloak on my scout, I run it with uplinks and hives in situations where I know running my Logi would be pointless. And the scout is, in almost all circumstances, the best suit for repping heavies there is currently. Now, I don't really feel like going into too much detail about the Logi suit bonuses, that'd be enough for a whole another long winded post, but I will say I don't think all the suits should have the same bonuses as much as I don't like the whole bonus to one equipment only thing either. And someone in this thread suggested something I have actually made jokes about many times, as in, giving Minlogi a bonus to REs/Proxies... this would actually make sense, much more than the reptool, as the REs are actually Minmatar tech in spirit too, unlike the reptool. And I don't see this ever happening, can you imagine the QQ? But, oh, it would be glorious. -Support Logi since Fall 2012 Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1950	Posted - 2014.08.12 08:13:00 - [33] - Quote Role: priority target, AV, Sentinel CQC, Commando suppressor. Mostly of note are drop uplinks. They diminish the value of needles, rep tools and map control by making it easy to spam out seemingly dozens of the things into an area making it almost impodsible to clear them. Needles are in disfavor because uplinks are cleaner and more reliable. Rep tools: easy to use. Rarely deployed. There needs to be a shield rep tool badly so shield tankeers can compete with active rep armor suits. Nanohives: armor rep hives allow solo pubstars to eliminate the need for squad support. Most players use them in preference to rep tools as dropping two armor hives is more efficient than a rep logi. Needles: hardly anyone uses em. Most people prefer using uplink respawns. Scanners: have replaved most battlefield resupply and support tools as preferred method Commandos: have no functional value over the new assaults beyond better weapon selection and poorer fitting capability. The slower speed is going to kill them.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers 769	Posted - 2014.08.12 08:22:00 - [34] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Nanite Injector: It's a ***** piece of . It's been 2 years. The guys on the CPM0 were telling CCP even before it was released how aboslute game-breaking terrible it would be if you can just pick up anyone. ATM terribads and troll are the only ones that carry them. Have to just say... Just because you use a needle for "trolling"/grieving doesn't mean everyone else holds that same mentality, and also, most people don't have nearly as hilarious ** fit reaction to being revived as you do, so I think you are overestimating the trolling potential of the needle. But thanks for calling me a terribad, sweetie ;) Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 195	Posted - 2014.08.12 08:46:00 - [35] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cass Caul wrote: Nanite Injector: It's a ***** piece of . It's been 2 years. The guys on the CPM0 were telling CCP even before it was released how aboslute game-breaking terrible it would be if you can just pick up anyone. ATM terribads and troll are the only ones that carry them. Have to just say... Just because you use a needle for "trolling"/grieving doesn't mean everyone else holds that same mentality, and also, most people don't have nearly as hilarious ** fit reaction to being revived as you do, so I think you are overestimating the trolling potential of the needle. But thanks for calling me a terribad, sweetie ;) I was going to mention something but it seems to be the norm on these forums that if one logi has 1k HP they all do, if one scout shoguns from cloaked they all do, if one person trolls with a needle everyone does etc etc etc. There are quite a few posters that lack any sort of perspective and some times common sense. Still I live in hope. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 195	Posted - 2014.08.12 08:57:00 - [36] - Quote I would honestly like the idea of recharge/energiser/rep boost as oppose to a straight up HP buff. Maybe an efficiency bonus in the use of these modules? Also all equipment needs to be useful and used when deployed as opposed to sitting around being useless. How about some sort of timer on the 'life' of equipment so if it isn't depleted in a certain time it will decay. This may promote a more tactical deployment as oppose to spam. Not sure if possible. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Juno Tristan Inner.Hell 60	Posted - 2014.08.12 09:42:00 - [37] - Quote Bring back the rep tool visualisation on the suit being rep'd so that they know they still have logi support before they dive into a room full of red dots
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1950	Posted - 2014.08.12 10:01:00 - [38] - Quote Scanners need to have a margin for error, allowing suits to sometimes spoof the radar instead of being autodetection. I would make the chance low . Make the scanner light up the user on the radar to his targets. Rather like active sonar, it should work both ways. You pinpoint THEM, but they pinpoint YOU.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers 769	Posted - 2014.08.12 10:48:00 - [39] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Make the scanner light up the user on the radar to his targets. Rather like active sonar, it should work both ways. You pinpoint THEM, but they pinpoint YOU. Great idea! ...as long as it applies to passive scans as well, not just the active scanner :P Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers 769	Posted - 2014.08.12 11:07:00 - [40] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Scanners need to have a margin for error, allowing suits to sometimes spoof the radar instead of being autodetection. I would make the chance low . Make the scanner light up the user on the radar to his targets. Rather like active sonar, it should work both ways. You pinpoint THEM, but they pinpoint YOU. Scanning in Dust should have worked at least a little bit more like ewar in Eve, with things like optimal and falloff ranges for scans. So you would introduce a sliding scale of uncertainty in scans based on distance, for instance. And then things like sprinting, using equipment, firing a weapon could increase a suit's profile temporarily, kind of like the cloak reduces the profile for its duration, and certain mods could have penalties to profile too. These thing would make the stealth game dynamic and actually interesting, as opposed to the 100% on/off it is now. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"

SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 992	Posted - 2014.08.12 11:16:00 - [41] - Quote Gal Logi here. I often run dual scanners. Apothecary Za'ki wrote: the suit extra bonuses smell like homogenization but i can dig it. IMO, off-racial bonuses should be half that of racial suits; enough to get a bonus from anything you'd fit, but also worth putting your racial equipment on for an extra boost. Regarding injectors: I don't agree with them providing shields, but I do think they should rez you with +1 shield so recharge immediately kicks in. Regarding scanners: These things are ridiculously powerful, but in turn, it's really difficult to get war points from since it's restricted to kills from your squad. I'm okay with this dichotomy, but if active scans provide shared team scan, then that +15WP bonus should also be extended to kills from the entire team. However, I am in favour of changing some of the stats of the active scanners because the stats of the various active scanners are not aligned with their use cases. The use cases of active scanners call for different scanner types: 1. snapshot: Finding bad guys. This use case needs long range and/or relatively fast recharge, but doesn't need to light up the enemies for more than a second or two. Scan angle is also not such an issue. 2. Fire and Forget: for lighting bad guys up. This use case is for logos whose primary task is not scanning, but repairing, AV or whatever. When you know where the bad guys are, you use this scanner and light them up for ages and switch back to primary. Scan duration is really important here, as is scan angle (because you can't afford to miss), recharge rate and long range is not. 3. Permascanning: for those who use the scanner all the time. Recharge rate is ultra important (bearing in mind that the scanner has a nontrivial activation animation), as is precision: you have to be a credible threat to scan scouts down. Scan angle is also important due to the snapshot nature of scans - you can't afford to miss an uncloaked scout flanking you. Range is not important at all. Currently, the active scanners have a hodgepodge of stats that don't really align with the use cases and I'd be happy to suggest better ones. Oh, and the proximity active scanner is way too expensive. Dust/Eve transfers
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1951	Posted - 2014.08.12 11:38:00 - [42] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Great idea! ...as long as it applies to passive scans as well, not just the active scanner :P Negative sir, rather like passive sonar, if you aren't actively pinging you can sit and listen all damn day without alerting anyone so long as you don't fart too loudly. Passive scans are your sensors listening for EM feedback whether that feedback be some jerk broadcasting homoerotic slashfic over their comms or the energy signature of a charging forge gun. Since your passive sensors are not pinging nois out (hence passive) there is nothing to detect from them. But since an active scanner is pinging it should flash your ass to the enemy team.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers 770	Posted - 2014.08.12 11:43:00 - [43] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Great idea! ...as long as it applies to passive scans as well, not just the active scanner :P Negative sir, rather like passive sonar, if you aren't actively pinging you can sit and listen all damn day without alerting anyone so long as you don't fart too loudly. Passive scans are your sensors listening for EM feedback whether that feedback be some jerk broadcasting homoerotic slashfic over their comms or the energy signature of a charging forge gun. Since your passive sensors are not pinging nois out (hence passive) there is nothing to detect from them. But since an active scanner is pinging it should flash your ass to the enemy team. Well, I thought was kind of clearly being facetious there... Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4542	Posted - 2014.08.12 12:02:00 - [44] - Quote First of all, some links that I will be refering to: Changing WP values of support actions: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168287 WP potential for different roles is unbalanced: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1550428#post1550428 Support WP/D ratio possible? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=171243&find=unread Hey Cross! Here's a nice summary for you (btw I have subscribed to this thread to stay updated): Quick important things that need to be adressed: Increasing logistics "sight"/range from 40 meters to at least 100 meters...downed player icons and visible health bars when a repair tool is equipped are currently limited to 40 meters Fixing the sprint glitch. Adjusting wp sources to reward more difficult to earn tasks, while decreasing the reward for simple tanks (increasing scan assists and transport assist, decreasing triage, etc) Adjusting wp sources to actually make sense (75 wp for damaging LAV, only 40 for destruction? Hack 100 wp, hack assist 50...counter hack 80 wp, counter hack assist 65?) Making Proximity Explosives useful, rather than "triggers" for RE's Fixing the less useful variants (flux nanohive, proximity scanner, vehicle repair tool, etc) Cool ideas that would be nice to see implemented down the road: Racial Logistics to get "themed" bonuses (Caldari get bonuses to longer range, Amarr have higher quantity/supply, Gallente offer the best armor repair, Minmatar are all about speed) Introducing new WP bonuses for other support actions or skilled gameplay (backstabbing for scouts, bonus points for defending the objectives on skirmish, points for absorbing damage for sentinels, etc) A complete rework of squad orders (increasing effect of attack order, decreasing defend order, etc) In-game player stats such as Support wp/d at end of match screen if possible Icons that pop up when a player needs health/ammo similar to Resistance 2 Co-op Hope this helps :D Also, here's the discussion we had on Logistics stuff if you ever want to re-listen to your own thoughts/ideas: Part 1: http://youtu.be/V-zjzy3--Eg Part 2: http://youtu.be/fLO85L2s5YA Part 3: http://youtu.be/OahOkoznxMs If you'd like me to elaborate further on any of these subjects I'd be glad to. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 979	Posted - 2014.08.12 12:32:00 - [45] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross Logistics Mk.0 Injectors: WP as incentive is nice,but if a MLT frame can walk up and tap O to negate your Pro needle then the problem still remains. Doesn't really help shield tankers. -Need a needle priority system that uses the HIGHEST level needle when reviving. -Possibly reduce the amount of armor refilled and give a comperable amount of shields instead. Rep tool: Neon "kill me" sign. Can't outrep a MLT weapon with a Pro rep tool. Places logistics firmly on the frontlines of combat with its insanely short reach. Provides 0 incentive other than WP farming. Allies don't know they're being repaired. Doesn't really help shield tankers. -Remove the rep tool line to aid in logistics survival,leave the lock on boxes. -Give damage resistance while using (something like 65% to all damage) -Increase range by dramatic amounts for the logistics class. -Return the rep tool glow,but have it work like hit detection so an ally can see which side they are being repaired from -Negate shield recharge delays while used on allies,or recharge 25% of shields per hp/s restored. (eg sixkin 88 hp/s so 25% of 88) possibly reduce armor repair rate to compensate. Presto a rep tool that helps shield and armor. Hives - Any- Too easily destroyed by any stray explosions. Low carrying capacity. Low refilling amounts. (nanites) Annoying when a MLT frame stands on top throwing grenades at no one to use them faster. -Explosive resistance increase so it actually takes effort to destroy them. -+1 carried per level logistics bonus -Increased nanites -or- burst variants that refill faster but have lower nanites (think compact nanohives). -Disable grenades being refilled Scanners: Dat cooldown. -Nuff' said Uplinks: Actually alright R.E.s: The description says volitile chemicals yet i see scouts throw them from hights taller than their own suit,and sling them as if they are throwing frisbees. Are considered equipment yet can be refilled at nanohives. -Have them explode killing only the thrower if dropped from too high a height or slung with too much momentum -Disable refilling from hives Logistics suits: 30 more eHP than a scout Slower than heavier tanked mediums Bigger hitbox despite having less eHP Doesn't have the best regen despite having less eHP Doesn't have the best eHP despite its speed. When run as a support unit it costs easily 2x as much with 1/2 the survival Since logistics has more in common with scouts (ewar,equipment) logistics should be made to mimic them. -Keep the low eHP but in exchange give speed/stamina,regen amount and speed,and a smaller hitbox. This way it establishes a theme,support is fast and evasive,while killing is strong and durable. -Cut equipment costs by 50% minimal Based on personal experience,i would prefer to be harder to hit with better regen than have higher eHP. eHP just makes it too tempting to fight instead of support. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Alena Ventrallis S0VER31GN 1547	Posted - 2014.08.12 14:32:00 - [46] - Quote Jack 3enimble wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Logo mko A fix to the "false positive" revive indicators. Easier lock on mechanic for rep tools (prioritizing in crowds, etc.) Actual bonuses on equipment skills, like more precision on scanners, more nanites on nanohives, more reps on repair tool, etc. The Minlogi + sentinel combo is arguebly the best duo in the game, because of the bonus the min has on the reptool and the speedy nature of the suit compared with 4 equipment slots. Now imagine a Core focus reptool with the suit bonus of Pro Min logi and a extra lvl 5 reptool operation bonus. To me that sounds OP and if people would call that OP they're right for once. Just an example. The point is, give equipment a bonus for skilling into it. Hell, even just fitting reduction, but something. Rattati has spoken. CalScout hitbox is fine. You're gun game is broken.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 2605	Posted - 2014.08.12 14:40:00 - [47] - Quote I am, by no means, a logistics merc, but I would like the WP rewards for equipment to be closely reviewed. Triage and Guardian WP's seem to be incredibly high while Intel Kill Assists are pathetically low. He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 197	Posted - 2014.08.12 14:48:00 - [48] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: I am, by no means, a logistics merc, but I would like the WP rewards for equipment to be closely reviewed. Triage and Guardian WP's seem to be incredibly high while Intel Kill Assists are pathetically low. I Shayz has a post about WP linked above. Also are you saying that you think you don't get rewarded enough or that logi's get rewarded too much? Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3909	Posted - 2014.08.12 14:52:00 - [49] - Quote A increase in max stamina or stamina regeneration is the only thing that I wanted as a logi. P.s. and a speed boost (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!!
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5051	Posted - 2014.08.12 15:05:00 - [50] - Quote Proto min logi. High - 3 complex extenders/1 enhanced energizer. Lows - 1 enhanced armour repair/2 basic plates/1 complex shield regulator Weapon - whatever fits and is suitable Equipment - 1 proto injector/1 proto repair tool/1 proto hives/1 advanced uplinks HP seems too balanced across each suit. I would like to see HP values that reflect the racial logi suits better, like the other suit specialisations. I also think that an extra 100 of armour or shield HP relative to each racial suit would be good. I know that this will get abused but EVERYTHING in dust is abused if possible. This would really be nice for the actual support Logis because we are getting left behind in the HP department. I don't care about brick tankers, they brick tank any suit anyway so they should never be used as a point of reference for balance. They will always be there. This could kind of be fixed if we had a built in repair again but I'm on the fence about that one as it impeaches on gallentes bonus. Other than that, everything is good. PS. Actually maybe it would be nice for repair tools to have their number of targets tiered. Std/Adv/proto 1/2/3 Be vigilant!, for there are those that remove the teabag BEFORE adding milk!. This is unacceptable!.

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1249	Posted - 2014.08.12 15:05:00 - [51] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: A increase in max stamina or stamina regeneration is the only thing that I wanted as a logi. P.s. and a speed boost That's actually a key point to not overlook... my base speed is adequate (Cal Logi mostly) but the ridiculously low stamina pool and regen is a big pain in the a$$. Speed is the domain of the scouts but I see no reason why Logi's can have high level base stamina and assaults split the difference. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5051	Posted - 2014.08.12 15:08:00 - [52] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: I am, by no means, a logistics merc, but I would like the WP rewards for equipment to be closely reviewed. Triage and Guardian WP's seem to be incredibly high while Intel Kill Assists are pathetically low. That's because its risk vs reward. Pointing and clicking for instant wp VS risking getting shot at every turn or blown up to resupply and heal team mates. Think about it. Be vigilant!, for there are those that remove the teabag BEFORE adding milk!. This is unacceptable!.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2777	Posted - 2014.08.12 15:35:00 - [53] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: A increase in max stamina or stamina regeneration is the only thing that I wanted as a logi. P.s. and a speed boost That's actually a key point to not overlook... my base speed is adequate (Cal Logi mostly) but the ridiculously low stamina pool and regen is a big pain in the a$$. Speed is the domain of the scouts but I see no reason why Logi's can have high level base stamina and assaults split the difference. I'd say in general, a feature of the medium suits as a whole should be an ample stamina pool to encourage a more mobile gameplay style.
Doc DDD TeamPlayers 272	Posted - 2014.08.12 15:35:00 - [54] - Quote I didn't read anyones post above me so may be repeating someone else: Logis should have High ehp with crappy recharge/repair rates to take some hits while doing logi work so the logi/slayer role would be less desirable than pure slayer (assault). Logis spamming equipment is still ridiculous, 4 different SETS of hives spammed, go to supply depot, 4 more SETS, go to supply depot, 4 SETS of uplinks, go to supply depot, 4 more SETS of links, and suddenly the enemy team hits a LAG WALL when they get in range of all the spam. Would love to see a hard cap on equipment one player can drop to keep the garbage spam logis from filling rooms/areas with so much equipment that one flux gives the other team an orbital ( if you manage to get close enough to the lag wall to limp arm a flux) Please fix lame spam/glitch 9 uplinks at the highest point of a map, usually 2 feet inside a wall texture where even a flux can't remove it. Don't know if it is fixable but how about you need a 3 meter radius of flat ground surrounding an area for an uplink to 'stick'.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2715	Posted - 2014.08.12 15:41:00 - [55] - Quote Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to post feedback, it's really great to see this thread picking up momentum. I'd also like to add an additional thinks to I-Shayz-I the quality and format of your post is highly useful and appreciated. Keep it up folks and as inspired by I-Shayz-I if you have feedback on something specific, and there's already a quality thread on the subject, feel free to add a link to that as well (but please keep providing at least a summery directly in this thread). Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6546	Posted - 2014.08.12 15:45:00 - [56] - Quote Personally, I've always been a fan of cross-racial bonuses so that the Logis aren't shoe-horned into one particular type of equipment. On the other hand, and I'm speaking as a part-time Logi player so take this as a grain of salt, I kind of feel that the Gallente Logi would do better with a cooldown reduction or a target visibility increase as opposed to a precision bonus, at this point. Mostly because now we've established a mechanic for -all- Scouts to be able to EWAR tank a Gal Logi with active scanners, there's really no point in trying to defeat it. It goes back to the age old argument of "if the scanner can always beat the profile, why bother and if the profile can always beat the scanner, why bother?" Honestly, knowing in the back of my mind that all I'm doing as a Gallente Logi with a precision bonus is just forcing scouts to go full EWAR and then my role is kind of useless..? I'd much rather just have a general application bonus so that I can constantly and consistently use the -one- scanner instead of having to sport multiple, thereby using my equipment slots for other things. Just my amateur input though. No More Excuses
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 423	Posted - 2014.08.12 15:50:00 - [57] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Role: priority target, AV, Sentinel CQC, Commando suppressor. Mostly of note are drop uplinks. They diminish the value of needles, rep tools and map control by making it easy to spam out seemingly dozens of the things into an area making it almost impodsible to clear them. Needles are in disfavor because uplinks are cleaner and more reliable. Rep tools: easy to use. Rarely deployed. There needs to be a shield rep tool badly so shield tankeers can compete with active rep armor suits. Nanohives: armor rep hives allow solo pubstars to eliminate the need for squad support. Most players use them in preference to rep tools as dropping two armor hives is more efficient than a rep logi. Needles: hardly anyone uses em. Most people prefer using uplink respawns. Scanners: have replaved most battlefield resupply and support tools as preferred method Commandos: have no functional value over the new assaults beyond better weapon selection and poorer fitting capability. The slower speed is going to kill them. very wrong.. needles are good. they save clones ticking down in all game modes most notably ambush while uplinks are there to give players a faster way back to the hot zone at the time and most every logi should be running with a needle at all times.. typical loadout would be Needle rep-tool uplink.. or Needle, reptool,hive.. or sometimes in amboosh Needle, uplink,hive [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 423	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:03:00 - [58] - Quote Meee One wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross Logistics Mk.0 Injectors: WP as incentive is nice,but if a MLT frame can walk up and tap O to negate your Pro needle then the problem still remains. Doesn't really help shield tankers. -Need a needle priority system that uses the HIGHEST level needle when reviving. -Possibly reduce the amount of armor refilled and give a comperable amount of shields instead. Rep tool: Neon "kill me" sign. Can't outrep a MLT weapon with a Pro rep tool. Places logistics firmly on the frontlines of combat with its insanely short reach. Provides 0 incentive other than WP farming. Allies don't know they're being repaired. Doesn't really help shield tankers. -Remove the rep tool line to aid in logistics survival,leave the lock on boxes. -Give damage resistance while using (something like 65% to all damage) -Increase range by dramatic amounts for the logistics class. -Return the rep tool glow,but have it work like hit detection so an ally can see which side they are being repaired from -Negate shield recharge delays while used on allies,or recharge 25% of shields per hp/s restored. (eg sixkin 88 hp/s so 25% of 88) possibly reduce armor repair rate to compensate. Presto a rep tool that helps shield and armor. Hives - Any- Too easily destroyed by any stray explosions. Low carrying capacity. Low refilling amounts. (nanites) Annoying when a MLT frame stands on top throwing grenades at no one to use them faster. -Explosive resistance increase so it actually takes effort to destroy them. -+1 carried per level logistics bonus -Increased nanites -or- burst variants that refill faster but have lower nanites (think compact nanohives). -Disable grenades being refilled Scanners: Dat cooldown. -Nuff' said Uplinks: Actually alright R.E.s: The description says volitile chemicals yet i see scouts throw them from hights taller than their own suit,and sling them as if they are throwing frisbees. Are considered equipment yet can be refilled at nanohives. -Have them explode killing only the thrower if dropped from too high a height or slung with too much momentum -Disable refilling from hives Logistics suits: 30 more eHP than a scout Slower than heavier tanked mediums Bigger hitbox despite having less eHP Doesn't have the best regen despite having less eHP Doesn't have the best eHP despite its speed. When run as a support unit it costs easily 2x as much with 1/2 the survival Since logistics has more in common with scouts (ewar,equipment) logistics should be made to mimic them. -Keep the low eHP but in exchange give speed/stamina,regen amount and speed,and a smaller hitbox. This way it establishes a theme,support is fast and evasive,while killing is strong and durable. -Cut equipment costs by 50% minimal Based on personal experience,i would prefer to be harder to hit with better regen than have higher eHP. eHP just makes it too tempting to fight instead of support. i disagree with your injector rant.. in charlie(or was it delta) they are getting changed.. pro get more WP as standard/mil get less.. OH and lets not forget Pro also Rep80%+ of the persons armor [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1961	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:05:00 - [59] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Role: priority target, AV, Sentinel CQC, Commando suppressor. Mostly of note are drop uplinks. They diminish the value of needles, rep tools and map control by making it easy to spam out seemingly dozens of the things into an area making it almost impodsible to clear them. Needles are in disfavor because uplinks are cleaner and more reliable. Rep tools: easy to use. Rarely deployed. There needs to be a shield rep tool badly so shield tankeers can compete with active rep armor suits. Nanohives: armor rep hives allow solo pubstars to eliminate the need for squad support. Most players use them in preference to rep tools as dropping two armor hives is more efficient than a rep logi. Needles: hardly anyone uses em. Most people prefer using uplink respawns. Scanners: have replaved most battlefield resupply and support tools as preferred method Commandos: have no functional value over the new assaults beyond better weapon selection and poorer fitting capability. The slower speed is going to kill them. very wrong.. needles are good. they save clones ticking down in all game modes most notably ambush while uplinks are there to give players a faster way back to the hot zone at the time and most every logi should be running with a needle at all times.. typical loadout would be Needle rep-tool uplink.. or Needle, reptool,hive.. or sometimes in amboosh Needle, uplink,hive My point was uplinks as mobile spawn points that can be dropped a dozen at a time lessen the need for recovery equipment. It's often faster to have four people revive at an uplink than to needle and rep each one. Also uplinks reduce the need for map control and good movement habits. because uplink spam means you can instapop back up right on top of a contested objective. In all cases except outliers, he who spams links wins. I don't think one piece of equipment should overshadow all others that much.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 423	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:05:00 - [60] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: I am, by no means, a logistics merc, but I would like the WP rewards for equipment to be closely reviewed. Triage and Guardian WP's seem to be incredibly high while Intel Kill Assists are pathetically low. triage and guardian isnt high.. Triage has a points per minute CAP. while guardian requires the repee to kill some one. but i do however agree on the Intell-kill assist points.. more so due to CCP planning on raising WP cost of OB to 5000 points [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD

Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 424	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:10:00 - [61] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Role: priority target, AV, Sentinel CQC, Commando suppressor. Mostly of note are drop uplinks. They diminish the value of needles, rep tools and map control by making it easy to spam out seemingly dozens of the things into an area making it almost impodsible to clear them. Needles are in disfavor because uplinks are cleaner and more reliable. Rep tools: easy to use. Rarely deployed. There needs to be a shield rep tool badly so shield tankeers can compete with active rep armor suits. Nanohives: armor rep hives allow solo pubstars to eliminate the need for squad support. Most players use them in preference to rep tools as dropping two armor hives is more efficient than a rep logi. Needles: hardly anyone uses em. Most people prefer using uplink respawns. Scanners: have replaved most battlefield resupply and support tools as preferred method Commandos: have no functional value over the new assaults beyond better weapon selection and poorer fitting capability. The slower speed is going to kill them. very wrong.. needles are good. they save clones ticking down in all game modes most notably ambush while uplinks are there to give players a faster way back to the hot zone at the time and most every logi should be running with a needle at all times.. typical loadout would be Needle rep-tool uplink.. or Needle, reptool,hive.. or sometimes in amboosh Needle, uplink,hive My point was uplinks as mobile spawn points that can be dropped a dozen at a time lessen the need for recovery equipment. It's often faster to have four people revive at an uplink than to needle and rep each one. Also uplinks reduce the need for map control and good movement habits. because uplink spam means you can instapop back up right on top of a contested objective. In all cases except outliers, he who spams links wins. I don't think one piece of equipment should overshadow all others that much. i still disagree as on field recovery is less of a chore then waiting 3 to 15 seconds to drop back.. or even spawning at a CRU and running back or getting camped at the CRU by cloaky scout or heavy. [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 762	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:12:00 - [62] - Quote I primarily run Min Logi. STD in Pubs, ADV/PRO in FW, and PRO in PC. 1. Equipment spam has got to go. Hey, hey, ho, ho! Even something as simple as removing all dropped equipment when changing fits. Respawn in the same fit? Equipment stays. Not sure how easy of a hotfix this would be. This is a double edged sword, as my Link Spam fit and Hive Spam fit would not be usable one right after the other, but maybe this is a good thing? 2. One equipment bonus on a suit that is made to carry a wide range of equipment? That makes no sense to me, especially when two races get the better end of it with rep tools and links. A flat 15% bonus to all equipment (while still keeping the current main equipment bonus) would go a long way in helping out the pack mules. 3. eHP has been "king" for a while, but I am not looking for Logis to have any extra HP. They should be able to regen much faster than other suits imho. They are already slower, with less HP, and no sidearm. What is the big deal if they can duck behind cover and quickly get back to supporting their team? A slow speed, low HP, slow regen suit in combat is a terrible support suit if it can't stay alive long enough to do its damn job. Provide efficacy bonuses to Shield and Armor Regen modules? I started a thread on this subject and it turned into Slayer Logi QQ... 4. Add. An. Accept. Revive. Prompt. Good lord, why is this not a thing yet? 5. Quick switch to favorite equipment. We have no sidearm, so why can't we add a favorite equipment slot, that pressing R2 will quick switch to? This idea has been brought up many times, and always seems to fall by the wayside. 6. Please dial in the select wheel, I swear that thing is more finicky than that gold digging Kate Upton. The delay and lack of accuracy makes switching equipment frustrating sometimes in the heat of battle. See number 5 above. There are a lot of good ideas in this thread so far. Shayz also has some great suggestion threads as well. How many of these are feasible to implement, I have no idea. I'm just glad it is finally on the table. Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2717	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:12:00 - [63] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: i disagree with your injector rant.. in charlie(or was it delta) they are getting changed.. pro get more WP as standard/mil get less.. OH and lets not forget Pro also Rep80%+ of the persons armor This has been delayed due to an unexpected tech barrier. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 424	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:12:00 - [64] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: I didn't read anyones post above me so may be repeating someone else: Logis should have High ehp with crappy recharge/repair rates to take some hits while doing logi work so the logi/slayer role would be less desirable than pure slayer (assault). Logis spamming equipment is still ridiculous, 4 different SETS of hives spammed, go to supply depot, 4 more SETS, go to supply depot, 4 SETS of uplinks, go to supply depot, 4 more SETS of links, and suddenly the enemy team hits a LAG WALL when they get in range of all the spam. Would love to see a hard cap on equipment one player can drop to keep the garbage spam logis from filling rooms/areas with so much equipment that one flux gives the other team an orbital ( if you manage to get close enough to the lag wall to limp arm a flux) Please fix lame spam/glitch 9 uplinks at the highest point of a map, usually 2 feet inside a wall texture where even a flux can't remove it. Don't know if it is fixable but how about you need a 3 meter radius of flat ground surrounding an area for an uplink to 'stick'. 1 flux nade wipes out everything around a supply depo but yes it does get a little laggy at times [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2717	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:18:00 - [65] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Doc DDD wrote: I didn't read anyones post above me so may be repeating someone else: Logis should have High ehp with crappy recharge/repair rates to take some hits while doing logi work so the logi/slayer role would be less desirable than pure slayer (assault). Logis spamming equipment is still ridiculous, 4 different SETS of hives spammed, go to supply depot, 4 more SETS, go to supply depot, 4 SETS of uplinks, go to supply depot, 4 more SETS of links, and suddenly the enemy team hits a LAG WALL when they get in range of all the spam. Would love to see a hard cap on equipment one player can drop to keep the garbage spam logis from filling rooms/areas with so much equipment that one flux gives the other team an orbital ( if you manage to get close enough to the lag wall to limp arm a flux) Please fix lame spam/glitch 9 uplinks at the highest point of a map, usually 2 feet inside a wall texture where even a flux can't remove it. Don't know if it is fixable but how about you need a 3 meter radius of flat ground surrounding an area for an uplink to 'stick'. 1 flux nade wipes out everything around a supply depo but yes it does get a little laggy at times Perhaps I'm just lucky but even when actively trying to create the equipment lag situation (several full proto logi deploying everything they could around the underground bunker depot) I have yet to encounter this myself which makes me strongly wonder if the equipment/lag correlation isn't either a false positive or more complex than simply 'more equip = more lag'. However, even with my own testing regimes giving a negative result on that correlation, there is clearly still something happening and this serves as a good reminder to investigate further and talk with CCP about it in greater depth. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2717	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:20:00 - [66] - Quote Keep it coming folks, and tell the support players you know to get in here. I want to catch all perspectives, Assaults/Heavy receiving support, Scouts running light-support, new bro logi just starting out, long time logi vets, let's get it all. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 126	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:22:00 - [67] - Quote Primarily a Min logi, but run Cal or Amarr if hives or uplinks are needed more than reps. The repair tool The more I think about logi squishiness, the more I think the solution is adding a self-repair function to the repair tool. When a logi hits their aim down sights button with the repair tool equipped, it should repair their own armor, perhaps at a reduced repair rate. When a target's armor is at full value, the repair tool should reduce the shield repair delay. Please note, a logi's ability to tank damage would improve, but using this improvement would necessitate equipping the rep tool, instead of a primary or secondary weapon, improving a logi's tank, without directly recreating the "slayer logi" problem. If logis with repair tools that could self-repair the logi were at all OP, a very modest range nerf (starting around 5%) for whatever primary and secondary weapon a logi carries should reign in any slayer logis, without completely gutting their ability to defend themselves. War Points I'd like to see war points earned for repairing other people's armor drop from +25 per tick down to +22. A very modest drop. I'd like to see war points for scanned targets killed rise from +15 to +20. A good match where I do lots of repairing might still put me at the top of the WP list, but not by the slightly ridiculous margin I sometimes see. I'm not contributing more to the team than the guys getting 40+ kills, just because I'm following them around repping them. When I team up with a heavy like that, and he leads the match for kills, and I'm repping him; we should be close to a tie for WP earned. If I also manage my time well enough to do other support work (nanohives, uplinks, needling people) I should be able to make it to the top of the WP list. Doing so pretty regularly by a margin of more than 1k, suggests to me that I might be getting a little too many WP for reps. I should be encouraged to play a logi, without discouraging the slayers I'm supporting. When I have a mediocre game, I shouldn't still outscore them on WP easily. the Needle Injecting people shouldn't be this hard for logis or the people getting griefed by bad logis. Constructive criticism is abundant on this subject; the problem seems to be CCP not having the resources to fix it. I'd love to learn whether there is something the player base can do to help. I think we can reasonably expect minor tweaks, like to the numbers suggested above. I don't expect to see any added rep tool functionality before Legion; but I'd love for there to be a process in place, like a test server, like a somewhat open source environment where players can present mods/solutions to CCP. The Eve player base is weirdly amazing in some ways that CCP hasn't fully tapped. The nanite injector is perhaps the best example of the kind of persistent failure Legion's development process should be shaped to avoid. I don't know, but suspect this is a problem that's easily solved once we get away from the PS3. One of the really good signs that CCP hasn't screwed up Legion, will be if it releases with a properly functional injector, with minimap and flags for people who actually need a rez (no ghosts), and a process to let rezed people accept or reject the rez. Different people value different things, but this kind of basic functionality is wildly more important to me than the aesthetics of various racial suits or lore. Thanks for your attention to this stuff, Cross. Polling the players, so you can hash out what to emphasize when expressing the community's concerns to CCP, so they can allocate their limited resources well, is important.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2778	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:26:00 - [68] - Quote I'm fine with bonuses to regen over the increase in HP as well, though I urge you to avoid just boosting the base stats per level. Things like adding in a +HP/second passive armor regen doesn't encourage repping fits, in fact it does the opposite. If a player can get +5HP/s passive repair, they're less encouraged to actually use armor repairs because they're no longer necessary to fit in order to have armor reps. This in turn allows Logis to stack on MORE HP than an Assault, because they don't need to use the repairer/recharger to get the same level of reps than Assault would have with the modules equipped. So if you go the regen route, I do encourage you to tie the bonus to specific modules, and not just a bonus to the base regen of the suit.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 424	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:31:00 - [69] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: i disagree with your injector rant.. in charlie(or was it delta) they are getting changed.. pro get more WP as standard/mil get less.. OH and lets not forget Pro also Rep80%+ of the persons armor This has been delayed due to an unexpected tech barrier. meh shame.. we might see it in delta with the rest of the supposed logi love/balances [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD
Brush Master HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 1280	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:34:00 - [70] - Quote As far as some simple things that could improve a support logi: Increase base stamina and sprints speeds so we can get to people we are supporting faster. Like others have said, we feel pretty slow for having to move between squadmates that are spread out. Survivability increase, whether this is through some minor buffs to hp / reg, resistances, etc. More complex improvements would include: More skills bonuses on logi skills geared towards support and survival Player visual feedback when being locked on by a repair tool, this use to exist. Restore WP rewards for repairing vehicles / installations in a limited fashion( since there is already a global limit) possible limits like only enemy damage counts, outside of red zone, etc. Dust Veteran. June 2012 - ? True Logi. Flying DS from the start. @dustreports

Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 424	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:35:00 - [71] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Doc DDD wrote: I didn't read anyones post above me so may be repeating someone else: Logis should have High ehp with crappy recharge/repair rates to take some hits while doing logi work so the logi/slayer role would be less desirable than pure slayer (assault). Logis spamming equipment is still ridiculous, 4 different SETS of hives spammed, go to supply depot, 4 more SETS, go to supply depot, 4 SETS of uplinks, go to supply depot, 4 more SETS of links, and suddenly the enemy team hits a LAG WALL when they get in range of all the spam. Would love to see a hard cap on equipment one player can drop to keep the garbage spam logis from filling rooms/areas with so much equipment that one flux gives the other team an orbital ( if you manage to get close enough to the lag wall to limp arm a flux) Please fix lame spam/glitch 9 uplinks at the highest point of a map, usually 2 feet inside a wall texture where even a flux can't remove it. Don't know if it is fixable but how about you need a 3 meter radius of flat ground surrounding an area for an uplink to 'stick'. 1 flux nade wipes out everything around a supply depo but yes it does get a little laggy at times Perhaps I'm just lucky but even when actively trying to create the equipment lag situation (several full proto logi deploying everything they could around the underground bunker depot) I have yet to encounter this myself which makes me strongly wonder if the equipment/lag correlation isn't either a false positive or more complex than simply 'more equip = more lag'. However, even with my own testing regimes giving a negative result on that correlation, there is clearly still something happening and this serves as a good reminder to investigate further and talk with CCP about it in greater depth. Cheers, Cross perhaps the lag is due to people on one side of the atlantic putting down dozens of deployables and people on the other side beign effective due to ping/latency? [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 424	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:41:00 - [72] - Quote random Injector idea.. maybe if they had a charge up timer a little akin to active scanners.. (warning, math isnt a strong suit of mine) Mil - 10sec (7.5) std - 8sec (6) adv - 6sec (4.5) pro - 4sec (3) these times will be effected by Logi bonus so they would be 25% less at Logi 5 on logi suit so this way they cannot be troll-whored like in FW and there is more reason to use higher level injectors over lower level* pending WP balance on reviveing players [LogiBro in Training]* channel: BP SQUAD
Major IMPACT Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 5	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:49:00 - [73] - Quote Caldari Ck.0 Logi Suits : -In my opinion, logi suits are supposed to be the support role, not to be the greatest customization in the game with the highest equipment slots and many H/L slots. Might get mixed feedback, but I suggest adding a sidearm to all logi race suits- MIn, Amarr, Cal, Gal. -Decreased ammo capacity for primary weapon per clip by 15% or so (Got to be for the exchange of firepower for equipment) -Increased movement speed and maximum stamina Equipment: -Remote Explosives really needs to be regulated. As suggested in earlier comments, REs should not be resupplied on hives or supply depot. I agree with it transferred to grenades (It is the only equipment that can both kill infantry, destroy tanks, and are conveniently resupplied on hives and supply depot) -Nanite injectors- A per-charge, like the nova knifes. The more charged, the more armor is repaired. (I suggest a new, different type of needle) -Knife Sharpener- Sharpens nova knifes for more trouble ............(dont take this one) *PS I havent read ALL the comments. I apologize if an idea is repeated. Caldari logi- Ruler of Nanites
Major IMPACT Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 5	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:51:00 - [74] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: random Injector idea.. maybe if they had a charge up timer a little akin to active scanners.. (warning, math isnt a strong suit of mine) Mil - 10sec (7.5) std - 8sec (6) adv - 6sec (4.5) pro - 4sec (3) these times will be effected by Logi bonus so they would be 25% less at Logi 5 on logi suit so this way they cannot be troll-whored like in FW and there is more reason to use higher level injectors over lower level* *pending WP balance on reviveing players Lol, had the same thought. Caldari logi- Ruler of Nanites
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 201	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:52:00 - [75] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I'm fine with bonuses to regen over the increase in HP as well, though I urge you to avoid just boosting the base stats per level. Things like adding in a +HP/second passive armor regen doesn't encourage repping fits, in fact it does the opposite. If a player can get +5HP/s passive repair, they're less encouraged to actually use armor repairs because they're no longer necessary to fit in order to have armor reps. This in turn allows Logis to stack on MORE HP than an Assault, because they don't need to use the repairer/recharger to get the same level of reps than Assault would have with the modules equipped. So if you go the regen route, I do encourage you to tie the bonus to specific modules, and not just a bonus to the base regen of the suit. I agree that I it does go regen it is module/race specific. Things have been HP buffed before and it doesn't necessarily solve issues, it often creates more. The thing with a straight up HP buff is it will allow the QQ crowd to ***** and moan more about the "slayer" logi and 1k HP logi's following 1.5k heavies Also regarding equipment spam, I posted earlier about a timed decay on deployed equipment. As an example uplinks and hives dropped and forgotten, if they are not depleted within a certain time frame then they decay & pop. Not sure on whether that is even possible in the current HF route. But it may encourage a more tactical deployment of equipment as and when is needed as oppose to a drop and forget mechanic. It's a shame about the nanite injector WP not coming through in Charlie. There are some very good ideas knocking about all of which would give a positive effect to the logi class. However I would like to hear what CCP have in mind as what they think the logi/support role is all about. Some of the biggest issues I have seen is how everyone perceives a role. So I'm kinda asking for that feedback from CCP as it could help to focus what is and isn't possible. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Doc DDD TeamPlayers 273	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:53:00 - [76] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Doc DDD wrote: I didn't read anyones post above me so may be repeating someone else: Logis should have High ehp with crappy recharge/repair rates to take some hits while doing logi work so the logi/slayer role would be less desirable than pure slayer (assault). Logis spamming equipment is still ridiculous, 4 different SETS of hives spammed, go to supply depot, 4 more SETS, go to supply depot, 4 SETS of uplinks, go to supply depot, 4 more SETS of links, and suddenly the enemy team hits a LAG WALL when they get in range of all the spam. Would love to see a hard cap on equipment one player can drop to keep the garbage spam logis from filling rooms/areas with so much equipment that one flux gives the other team an orbital ( if you manage to get close enough to the lag wall to limp arm a flux) Please fix lame spam/glitch 9 uplinks at the highest point of a map, usually 2 feet inside a wall texture where even a flux can't remove it. Don't know if it is fixable but how about you need a 3 meter radius of flat ground surrounding an area for an uplink to 'stick'. 1 flux nade wipes out everything around a supply depo but yes it does get a little laggy at times Perhaps I'm just lucky but even when actively trying to create the equipment lag situation (several full proto logi deploying everything they could around the underground bunker depot) I have yet to encounter this myself which makes me strongly wonder if the equipment/lag correlation isn't either a false positive or more complex than simply 'more equip = more lag'. However, even with my own testing regimes giving a negative result on that correlation, there is clearly still something happening and this serves as a good reminder to investigate further and talk with CCP about it in greater depth. Cheers, Cross You lag less when you are actually "IN" the area of the spammed equipment, but if you are around 100m away on the opposite team and then approach the area that has been equipment spammed the ps3 starts puking and shaking.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 424	Posted - 2014.08.12 17:00:00 - [77] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: I primarily run Min Logi. STD in Pubs, ADV/PRO in FW, and PRO in PC. 1. Equipment spam has got to go. Hey, hey, ho, ho! Even something as simple as removing all dropped equipment when changing fits. Respawn in the same fit? Equipment stays. Not sure how easy of a hotfix this would be. This is a double edged sword, as my Link Spam fit and Hive Spam fit would not be usable one right after the other, but maybe this is a good thing? 2. One equipment bonus on a suit that is made to carry a wide range of equipment? That makes no sense to me, especially when two races get the better end of it with rep tools and links. A flat 15% bonus to all equipment (while still keeping the current main equipment bonus) would go a long way in helping out the pack mules. 3. eHP has been "king" for a while, but I am not looking for Logis to have any extra HP. They should be able to regen much faster than other suits imho. They are already slower, with less HP, and no sidearm. What is the big deal if they can duck behind cover and quickly get back to supporting their team? A slow speed, low HP, slow regen suit in combat is a terrible support suit if it can't stay alive long enough to do its damn job. Provide efficacy bonuses to Shield and Armor Regen modules? I started a thread on this subject and it turned into Slayer Logi QQ... 4. Add. An. Accept. Revive. Prompt. Good lord, why is this not a thing yet? 5. Quick switch to favorite equipment. We have no sidearm, so why can't we add a favorite equipment slot, that pressing R2 will quick switch to? This idea has been brought up many times, and always seems to fall by the wayside. 6. Please dial in the select wheel, I swear that thing is more finicky than that gold digging Kate Upton. The delay and lack of accuracy makes switching equipment frustrating sometimes in the heat of battle. See number 5 above. There are a lot of good ideas in this thread so far. Shayz also has some great suggestion threads as well. How many of these are feasible to implement, I have no idea. I'm just glad it is finally on the table. 1. i somewhat disagree.. the spam is mainly around supply depos for people to try bolster their WPs.. if we could carry more equipment (see max carried) it could be less of an issue. 2.i do agree with a level of homogenization on equipment across all 4 logi suits.. maybe a medium bonus to everything while racial specific is slightly higher. 3.with assault scouts and cloak scouts and HMGs and redline snipers we need all the hp we can get..yet that hp does nothing if its low and SLOWLY repairing.. so i would propose a 2x modifier to self armor rep modules so that would be 30hp/s on pro repper on a logi suit i believe since L5 rep skill makes complex reps 14.7hp/s or something 4.Good god yes.. this needs to be done SOON AS POSSABLE! 5.i have no issue with switching gear except on amarr logi when i sometimes switch to sidearm instead of equip 6.in the heat of battle logi needs to stay in cover alot of the time but the speed of which the window opens coudl be addressed [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 424	Posted - 2014.08.12 17:03:00 - [78] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I'm fine with bonuses to regen over the increase in HP as well, though I urge you to avoid just boosting the base stats per level. Things like adding in a +HP/second passive armor regen doesn't encourage repping fits, in fact it does the opposite. If a player can get +5HP/s passive repair, they're less encouraged to actually use armor repairs because they're no longer necessary to fit in order to have armor reps. This in turn allows Logis to stack on MORE HP than an Assault, because they don't need to use the repairer/recharger to get the same level of reps than Assault would have with the modules equipped. So if you go the regen route, I do encourage you to tie the bonus to specific modules, and not just a bonus to the base regen of the suit. I agree that I it does go regen it is module/race specific. Things have been HP buffed before and it doesn't necessarily solve issues, it often creates more. The thing with a straight up HP buff is it will allow the QQ crowd to *** and moan more about the "slayer" logi and 1k HP logi's following 1.5k heavies Also regarding equipment spam, I posted earlier about a timed decay on deployed equipment. As an example uplinks and hives dropped and forgotten, if they are not depleted within a certain time frame then they decay & pop. Not sure on whether that is even possible in the current HF route. But it may encourage a more tactical deployment of equipment as and when is needed as oppose to a drop and forget mechanic. It's a shame about the nanite injector WP not coming through in Charlie. There are some very good ideas knocking about all of which would give a positive effect to the logi class. However I would like to hear what CCP have in mind as what they think the logi/support role is all about. Some of the biggest issues I have seen is how everyone perceives a role. So I'm kinda asking for that feedback from CCP as it could help to focus what is and isn't possible. insted of hp buff why not damage reduction bonus? [LogiBro in Training]** channel: BP SQUAD
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 201	Posted - 2014.08.12 17:09:00 - [79] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I'm fine with bonuses to regen over the increase in HP as well, though I urge you to avoid just boosting the base stats per level. Things like adding in a +HP/second passive armor regen doesn't encourage repping fits, in fact it does the opposite. If a player can get +5HP/s passive repair, they're less encouraged to actually use armor repairs because they're no longer necessary to fit in order to have armor reps. This in turn allows Logis to stack on MORE HP than an Assault, because they don't need to use the repairer/recharger to get the same level of reps than Assault would have with the modules equipped. So if you go the regen route, I do encourage you to tie the bonus to specific modules, and not just a bonus to the base regen of the suit. I agree that I it does go regen it is module/race specific. Things have been HP buffed before and it doesn't necessarily solve issues, it often creates more. The thing with a straight up HP buff is it will allow the QQ crowd to ***** and moan more about the "slayer" logi and 1k HP logi's following 1.5k heavies Also regarding equipment spam, I posted earlier about a timed decay on deployed equipment. As an example uplinks and hives dropped and forgotten, if they are not depleted within a certain time frame then they decay & pop. Not sure on whether that is even possible in the current HF route. But it may encourage a more tactical deployment of equipment as and when is needed as oppose to a drop and forget mechanic. It's a shame about the nanite injector WP not coming through in Charlie. There are some very good ideas knocking about all of which would give a positive effect to the logi class. However I would like to hear what CCP have in mind as what they think the logi/support role is all about. Some of the biggest issues I have seen is how everyone perceives a role. So I'm kinda asking for that feedback from CCP as it could help to focus what is and isn't possible. insted of hp buff why not damage reduction bonus? Mainly because I don't see why I shouldn't be able to kill some one to defend myself. A damage reduction invalidates the SP I have invested into a weapon. Any slayer suit has a bonus to a weapon type, mine doesn't so anyone who gets a logi suit knows it is not combat efficient but can be effective. Hope that clarifies it a bit. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 424	Posted - 2014.08.12 17:12:00 - [80] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I'm fine with bonuses to regen over the increase in HP as well, though I urge you to avoid just boosting the base stats per level. Things like adding in a +HP/second passive armor regen doesn't encourage repping fits, in fact it does the opposite. If a player can get +5HP/s passive repair, they're less encouraged to actually use armor repairs because they're no longer necessary to fit in order to have armor reps. This in turn allows Logis to stack on MORE HP than an Assault, because they don't need to use the repairer/recharger to get the same level of reps than Assault would have with the modules equipped. So if you go the regen route, I do encourage you to tie the bonus to specific modules, and not just a bonus to the base regen of the suit. I agree that I it does go regen it is module/race specific. Things have been HP buffed before and it doesn't necessarily solve issues, it often creates more. The thing with a straight up HP buff is it will allow the QQ crowd to *** and moan more about the "slayer" logi and 1k HP logi's following 1.5k heavies Also regarding equipment spam, I posted earlier about a timed decay on deployed equipment. As an example uplinks and hives dropped and forgotten, if they are not depleted within a certain time frame then they decay & pop. Not sure on whether that is even possible in the current HF route. But it may encourage a more tactical deployment of equipment as and when is needed as oppose to a drop and forget mechanic. It's a shame about the nanite injector WP not coming through in Charlie. There are some very good ideas knocking about all of which would give a positive effect to the logi class. However I would like to hear what CCP have in mind as what they think the logi/support role is all about. Some of the biggest issues I have seen is how everyone perceives a role. So I'm kinda asking for that feedback from CCP as it could help to focus what is and isn't possible. insted of hp buff why not damage reduction bonus? Mainly because I don't see why I shouldn't be able to kill some one to defend myself. A damage reduction invalidates the SP I have invested into a weapon. Any slayer suit has a bonus to a weapon type, mine doesn't so anyone who gets a logi suit knows it is not combat efficient but can be effective. Hope that clarifies it a bit. you missunderstand.. i ment like a Sentinel buff.. incomming damage for them is like -25% .. i was not refferign to damage OUTPUT at all. [LogiBro in Training]** channel: BP SQUAD

Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 201	Posted - 2014.08.12 17:23:00 - [81] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I'm fine with bonuses to regen over the increase in HP as well, though I urge you to avoid just boosting the base stats per level. Things like adding in a +HP/second passive armor regen doesn't encourage repping fits, in fact it does the opposite. If a player can get +5HP/s passive repair, they're less encouraged to actually use armor repairs because they're no longer necessary to fit in order to have armor reps. This in turn allows Logis to stack on MORE HP than an Assault, because they don't need to use the repairer/recharger to get the same level of reps than Assault would have with the modules equipped. So if you go the regen route, I do encourage you to tie the bonus to specific modules, and not just a bonus to the base regen of the suit. I agree that I it does go regen it is module/race specific. Things have been HP buffed before and it doesn't necessarily solve issues, it often creates more. The thing with a straight up HP buff is it will allow the QQ crowd to ***** and moan more about the "slayer" logi and 1k HP logi's following 1.5k heavies Also regarding equipment spam, I posted earlier about a timed decay on deployed equipment. As an example uplinks and hives dropped and forgotten, if they are not depleted within a certain time frame then they decay & pop. Not sure on whether that is even possible in the current HF route. But it may encourage a more tactical deployment of equipment as and when is needed as oppose to a drop and forget mechanic. It's a shame about the nanite injector WP not coming through in Charlie. There are some very good ideas knocking about all of which would give a positive effect to the logi class. However I would like to hear what CCP have in mind as what they think the logi/support role is all about. Some of the biggest issues I have seen is how everyone perceives a role. So I'm kinda asking for that feedback from CCP as it could help to focus what is and isn't possible. insted of hp buff why not damage reduction bonus? Mainly because I don't see why I shouldn't be able to kill some one to defend myself. A damage reduction invalidates the SP I have invested into a weapon. Any slayer suit has a bonus to a weapon type, mine doesn't so anyone who gets a logi suit knows it is not combat efficient but can be effective. Hope that clarifies it a bit. you missunderstand.. i ment like a Sentinel buff.. incomming damage for them is like -25% .. i was not refferign to damage OUTPUT at all. Apologies, yeah I see what you mean. It would be interesting topic all on its own that one. I could certainly see how it could be useful but the QQ level would be unprecedented and may encourage a slayer use. The question would be how to have that bonus and not have it abused in a non support role? Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 2605	Posted - 2014.08.12 17:40:00 - [82] - Quote I would like to see skills to further specialist in one equipment type. Call the skills (Equipment Type) Calibration or (Equipment Type) Proficiency. These skills would further allow logistic specialists to be the absolute best at what they do. For example... Repair Gun Calibration Prerequisite: Repair Tool Operation IV Rank x5 +2% to repair gun amount per level This is obviously something off the cuff, but you get the idea. Some other thoughts: eHP for logisitic dropsuits should not increase Increasing movement speed for logistic dropsuits would be useful and fair WP from equipment needs to be closely evaluated. Triage and Guardian rewards are too high. Intel Kill Assist is too low. Logistics dropsuits do not need a sidearm He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2779	Posted - 2014.08.12 18:08:00 - [83] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: insted of hp buff why not damage reduction bonus? HP and Damage reduction both increase effective HP. If 100 HP has 25% reduction, that means you need to do 25% more damage to kill them If 100 HP gets a 25% increase to HP, it has 125 HP and thus you need to do 25% more damage to kill them If anything Damage Reduction is better than raw HP increase, because damage reduction increases effective HP without increasing the amount of HP that needs to be repped back, meaning that your Effective Reps are also increased.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 424	Posted - 2014.08.12 18:23:00 - [84] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: I would like to see skills to further specialist in one equipment type. Call the skills (Equipment Type) Calibration or (Equipment Type) Proficiency. These skills would further allow logistic specialists to be the absolute best at what they do. For example... Repair Gun Calibration Prerequisite: Repair Tool Operation IV Rank x5 +2% to repair gun amount per level This is obviously something off the cuff, but you get the idea. Some other thoughts: eHP for logisitic dropsuits should not increase Increasing movement speed for logistic dropsuits would be useful and fair WP from equipment needs to be closely evaluated. Triage and Guardian rewards are too high. Intel Kill Assist is too low. Logistics dropsuits do not need a sidearm theres an idea... but insted of level 4 how about level 3.. and then..something of the same for other equipment Repair tool L3 -> Repair tool harmonizing +5% rep and 10% range per level nanocircuitry L3 -> Nano-proficiancy this will increase the speed of which armor is repaired by armor repairing hives and increase the max carried by 1 per level and max clusters by 2 per level a bit like caldari bonus but more useful(also change description to reflect the "hidden" 5% cpu use per level) uplink deployment L3 -> Uplink efficiency this will increase max amount of people able to use the uplink by 2 per level and decrease spawn time by 10% per level. and max carried by 1 basically amarr bonus but as a skill Active scanner operation L3 -> scanner pinpointing 10% visability duration and 5% precision per level and 10% cooldown per level basically just gallente bonus with a little extra System hacking L3 -> Virus Countermeasures Increases counter-hack speed by 15% per level(maybe 10% idk yet) a little bonus for Minja's or ewar scouts with hacker tool Cloak field op L3 -> Cloaking optimization -10% cpu and 5% pg per level a little something for scouts to stop their QQing now with these changes to skills the actual logi bonus would need to be addressed Logi suit bonus 5% reduction to PG/cpu cost of equipment(as normal) 2x modifier to armor repair modules -50% speed penalty for fitting armor plates. +100% bonus to repair tool repair amount to vehicles (perhaps opens up team play for BUFFER tank HAVs.. 25 points per 500-750 hp repaired) remove or tone down racial logi bonuses. [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1047	Posted - 2014.08.12 18:24:00 - [85] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Swarm Launchers 1) Velocity of swarm missiles needs to noticeably increase...Drop ships outrunning swarms borders on the ridiculous. I'm pretty deep into SP investment for SLs and honestly the damage they deliver now is adequate but delivering the damage to a drop ship in particular is very sketchy. Question : Wouldn't this kill the ground support ..??.. seeing as they are already at a disadvantage compared to ground vehicles V.S air support in comparison to all anti-vehicle weapons , meaning .. their are far more ways to destroy ground vehicles compared to air vehicles . The only weapons that are active in attempts at destroying air vehicles are swarms , PC ( Good luck with that ) and the forge gun , where ground vehicles have in addition RE's and NK's . Speeding up swarms would put ground vehicles at a even greater disadvantage V.S air vehicles . How about increasing closing speed the longer the swarms are in flight , so it doesn't effect the current state of swarms V.S ground vehicles but increases the chance to catch up to air vehicles the longer the swarm is active in flight . The goal should be to catch up to air vehicles and their ability to maneuver , which is far greater than ground vehicles . The longer the swarms are in flight , the faster their closing speed should be in respects to catching an air vehicle while it's trying to out maneuver the closing speed of the swarm before it self destructs . Just flat out increasing the speed would kill ground vehicles and still not solve the overall problem of air vehicles and their continued flight while trying to out maneuver the oncoming swarm attack . You have some good pilots who just know how to avoid these things where as if you increase the flight time as well as the closing speed when in flight for say , after 5 seconds or more of flight , should not throw off the fragile state of ground vehicles and what they face compared to air vehicles . You would think that CCP would have given the infantry refund that should have been in 1.8.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1048	Posted - 2014.08.12 19:01:00 - [86] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Mainly because I don't see why I shouldn't be able to kill some one to defend myself. A damage reduction invalidates the SP I have invested into a weapon. I don't get the first statement . Logistics by far is the weakest suit , even compared to scouts and some scouts can logi better than a logi since you have to pick a particular race to perform a certain logi role , where as scouts do not have such restrictions .. they can lay hives , rep and revive , use scanners and spawns but not get the same results as a level 5 logi and only at level 5 can you actually tell the difference . Their speed and elusiveness can get them in and out of situations faster then a logi but most of the time they have the same amount of HP's so scouts are out preforming logi's at their own role and their deadlier . I just can't understand those who suggest that Logi's should have a ammo decrease or not be able to defend themselves while they are the most defenseless role in the game by far . So what your reaping a heavy because if that heavy dies then you ability to defend yourself is decreased because you just lost your cover fire , I'm not the type of logi that doesn't help in defense while just reaping .. if I'm defending as well the chances of defeating the supposed threats increases , while reaping when needed . I play heavy so I don't expect any heavy that I reap to kill three or more adversaries while I sit there and do nothing besides reaping , I get in there as well ... granted using cover , to help rid the situation , less time fighting more adversaries the less time help can come and reinforce their numbers . A logistics trooper should be able to defend themselves . Second , so a damage increase or increase in ammo that other roles get is a validation ??? To me in most cases , that hides the fact that most people ignore skilling into increasing ammo or reload speed in their own particular weapons skill tree from the fact that a bonus from a role that they play can hide the fact that they don't are are not making that investment . Most go for just the prof and that's it in most cases , only taking reload and ammo to level 3 at the most . They should have a damage reduction of some sort and not have to trade that off in a ammo decrease or in some sort of barrier that hinders their own self-defense . Everyone is not a prototype logi and basic and standard should stand for something and be used as well , besides being a stone to stand on the way to prototype . Basic and advanced are already at a disadvantage . The sectioning off of skills i.e , reps or hives or spawns ect .. is killing the representation of all races of Logi because some bonuses ( Min and Amarr ) are clearly better than others . I for one , am tired of seeing mostly Min and Ammar logis , Gal and Amarr heavies , Gal and Cal scouts and assaults I don't see too many of them but after Charlie it will clearly be Min , Amarr and then Gal's ... there needs to be a greater representation of all races on the battlefield . You would think that CCP would have given the infantry refund that should have been in 1.8.
Bishop Harcourt K-A-O-S theory 17	Posted - 2014.08.12 19:01:00 - [87] - Quote Howdy Ya'll, Proto Minmatar logibro here. I had an idea based on what I perceived each races combat philosophy to be. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Amar: Mid range, slow moving continuous firefights. Give the (it hurts to type this) repp tool bonus that the Minlogi has to them. It never made much sense to give it to the logi with the lowest health and have them in the front lines. It would be better served on the most combat oriented Logistics suit, paired with the Sentinel with the highest armor HP. They would be a terror on the battlefield. Caldari: Long ranged, sustained engagements Keep the bonus to nanite injectors. Also the one to ammo nanohives, but add increase amount carried buy 1 per lvl. This would help when setting up forward and defensive positions. It will also allow for the Calogi to move with the battle as the situation dictates. Gallente: Short range, quick CQ brawlers I always thought the Galogi bonus was a little weak(the fact that its tied to the scanner, not the bonus itself), so I suggest also giving them the Calogi bonus to Armor Repair nano-hives. Give them this, but not the +1 per. This would help get Federation soldiers back in the fight faster after a brush up as well as allowing the them to know weather a counter offensive was inbound. Minmatar: Quick, hit and run Guerrilla warfare While the repper bonus is awesome, giving it to the Amlogi is (IMO) the best thing to do. So what about the Minlogi? Give them a minor(very minor I.E +1% damage per lvl) bonus to remotes/proxies and also the Amlogi's droplink bonus. Now before True starts with the "the droplinks are Amar tech" jabba wabba, hear me out. The Minmatar are about speed. Hit them hard, fast, and bug out. The bonuses I described would best fit their guerrilla tactic style of play. Setting an ambush on a supply convoy with proxie's, RE's in and around the road, with droplinks set in strategic locations. Then spawning in just as the frist proxy's blow. That to me sounds very Matari. So you other logi's mull it over and let me know. Logibro, Director, KAOS THEORY's Official Minister of Science and Magic.
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 283	Posted - 2014.08.12 19:16:00 - [88] - Quote Main role: sniper. for squad play purposes a shared tacnet scan from scope or at least a tagging system would be of great use. bonus points for shooting a red dot that is attacking or within a radius of my squad, or for a revenge kill on an enemy that killed a squadmate. Secondary role: Calsent, We desperately need a shield tool on our logi bros. as our main form of tank is our shields. even with the best logi bro we have to keep taking cover, which is fine but other heavies don't. my suggestion is instead of a rep tool, a shield regulator tool which makes our kick starts our recharge. so we still have to use cover, and the shields would recharge at whatever rate our fit out uses. but as soon as we get into cover the logi bro could get our shields going. it would also mean that the logi can keep reps on the heavy for guardian points without it being op (as in infinate shields)
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 762	Posted - 2014.08.12 19:21:00 - [89] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: i disagree with your injector rant.. in charlie(or was it delta) they are getting changed.. pro get more WP as standard/mil get less.. OH and lets not forget Pro also Rep80%+ of the persons armor This has been delayed due to an unexpected tech barrier. This is the saddest thing I have read in a while. That's what I get for getting my hopes up... Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
RKKR The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1008	Posted - 2014.08.12 19:48:00 - [90] - Quote Cal Logi lately (Well I usually swap out to a different suit because I'm more usefull that way after I deploy all my equipment) See that phrase between the parentheses? That shouldn't be necessary if one decides to spawn in with a support role. I recently made a quick post in this thread. Added the posts at the end of this post for your convenience (actually I don't feel like spending the energy to go to deep into this topic before we get a glimpse that CCP changes their attitude towards the support role: eg. The original idea of reducing speed of logis, just to make assault more viable & ignoring all feedback from the 1.8 changes) Besides that...I'm supposed to support the team...I need to run around the battlefield from ally to ally...I can't with the current pool of stamina and regen...(the suit is called LOGISTICS for fucks sake) unless I sacrifice all my low slots to some modules. RKKR wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: This is a good age for a logi. I'm not feeling the passive VS active Logi idea... In short: The passive logi will just become a much worse version of an assault/scout after all his equipment is used. The current mechanics don't even allow the passive logi to switch suits or he will lose his racial bonus. All this while the active logi will have benefits from their undestroyable/mobile/infinite usage equipment. Callogi will need even more CPU for it's sidearm, while it's not even 100% sure they wil adjust the crap CPU of the suit after all the warnings just out of fear of a slayer logi and shield tanking is still too CPU extensive en suckt compared to armor tanking. Seems that an assault with a rep tool might be more useful than my callogi. This game is getting more cookie cutter like with every update. RKKR wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: So besides the bonuses what needs to be fixed with logis? Because the next hotfix PG/CPU adjustments are due and a few other changes. Lets be ready. Just some unlikely idea: If we have to keep our bonuses...maybe they could change the way how equipment works. Make all equipment unlimited use but with some kind of cool-down period for it's next usage, more like the scanner and cloak. Limit maximum active equipment of deployable items per type and maybe let them be destroyed when switching to another suit that hasn't got the equipment currently deployed (fixes spamming aswell, win-win), this way the caldari/amarr logi can keep it's bonus playing the game without needing to restock at the supply depot and losing their bonus. Scanners are squad only, maybe allow it to be visual for a few seconds for the whole team aswell? In short: CCP drop the passive support role thing, it's not even a thing and drives the 'experience and effectives' to the lowest point it can get.

Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 426	Posted - 2014.08.12 20:18:00 - [91] - Quote Bishop Harcourt wrote: Howdy Ya'll, Proto Minmatar logibro here. I had an idea based on what I perceived each races combat philosophy to be. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Amar: Mid range, slow moving continuous firefights. Give the (it hurts to type this) repp tool bonus that the Minlogi has to them. It never made much sense to give it to the logi with the lowest health and have them in the front lines. It would be better served on the most combat oriented Logistics suit, paired with the Sentinel with the highest armor HP. They would be a terror on the battlefield. Caldari: Long ranged, sustained engagements Keep the bonus to nanite injectors. Also the one to ammo nanohives, but add increase amount carried buy 1 per lvl. This would help when setting up forward and defensive positions. It will also allow for the Calogi to move with the battle as the situation dictates. Gallente: Short range, quick CQ brawlers I always thought the Galogi bonus was a little weak(the fact that its tied to the scanner, not the bonus itself), so I suggest also giving them the Calogi bonus to Armor Repair nano-hives. Give them this, but not the +1 per. This would help get Federation soldiers back in the fight faster after a brush up as well as allowing the them to know weather a counter offensive was inbound. Minmatar: Quick, hit and run Guerrilla warfare While the repper bonus is awesome, giving it to the Amlogi is (IMO) the best thing to do. So what about the Minlogi? Give them a minor(very minor I.E +1% damage per lvl) bonus to remotes/proxies and also the Amlogi's droplink bonus. Now before True starts with the "the droplinks are Amar tech" jabba wabba, hear me out. The Minmatar are about speed. Hit them hard, fast, and bug out. The bonuses I described would best fit their guerrilla tactic style of play. Setting an ambush on a supply convoy with proxie's, RE's in and around the road, with droplinks set in strategic locations. Then spawning in just as the frist proxy's blow. That to me sounds very Matari. So you other logi's mull it over and let me know. i disagree with your motion to give rep tool range/amount to amarr.. that would just make them the bast logi to use end of story as they have a sidearm and most raw HP and also armor tanker.. this would basically kill off all 3 of the other race logis stone dead. [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 426	Posted - 2014.08.12 20:20:00 - [92] - Quote RKKR wrote: Cal Logi lately (Well I usually swap out to a different suit because I'm more usefull that way after I deploy all my equipment) See that phrase between the parentheses? That shouldn't be necessary if one decides to spawn in with a support role. I recently made a quick post in this thread. Added the posts at the end of this post for your convenience (actually I don't feel like spending the energy to go to deep into this topic before we get a glimpse that CCP changes their attitude towards the support role: eg. The original idea of reducing speed of logis, just to make assault more viable & ignoring all feedback from the 1.8 changes) Besides that...I'm supposed to support the team...I need to run around the battlefield from ally to ally...I can't with the current pool of stamina and regen...(the suit is called LOGISTICS for fucks sake) unless I sacrifice all my low slots to some modules. RKKR wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: This is a good age for a logi. I'm not feeling the passive VS active Logi idea... In short: The passive logi will just become a much worse version of an assault/scout after all his equipment is used. The current mechanics don't even allow the passive logi to switch suits or he will lose his racial bonus. All this while the active logi will have benefits from their undestroyable/mobile/infinite usage equipment. Callogi will need even more CPU for it's sidearm, while it's not even 100% sure they wil adjust the crap CPU of the suit after all the warnings just out of fear of a slayer logi and shield tanking is still too CPU extensive en suckt compared to armor tanking. Seems that an assault with a rep tool might be more useful than my callogi. This game is getting more cookie cutter like with every update. RKKR wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: So besides the bonuses what needs to be fixed with logis? Because the next hotfix PG/CPU adjustments are due and a few other changes. Lets be ready. Just some unlikely idea: If we have to keep our bonuses...maybe they could change the way how equipment works. Make all equipment unlimited use but with some kind of cool-down period for it's next usage, more like the scanner and cloak. Limit maximum active equipment of deployable items per type and maybe let them be destroyed when switching to another suit that hasn't got the equipment currently deployed (fixes spamming aswell, win-win), this way the caldari/amarr logi can keep it's bonus playing the game without needing to restock at the supply depot and losing their bonus. Scanners are squad only, maybe allow it to be visual for a few seconds for the whole team aswell? In short: CCP drop the passive support role thing, it's not even a thing and drives the 'experience and effectives' to the lowest point it can get. people dont run cal logi cause its rubish.. its a case of armor tank or GTFO the battlefield cause 1 flux and your defence is nullified as a shield tanker. [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD
RKKR The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1008	Posted - 2014.08.12 20:40:00 - [93] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: people dont run cal logi cause its rubish.. its a case of armor tank or GTFO the battlefield cause 1 flux and your defence is nullified as a shield tanker. Shield VS armor is a different topic and the callogi is not entirely rubbish BUT it's the reason why I'm constantly switching out at the supply depot for the equipment that is needed on the battlefield and try to stay on the long range side. Sadly this is not always possible due to the crap spawn system in ambush that spawn you near your teammates that are getting spawn camped and domination/skirmish are game-mode where you have to go in close at some point (or have boring redline games). In those situations I have to rely more on my teammates, but the problem is that teammates don't rely on me unless they are out of ammo,...then they are the first to complain about logis not doing their job. The point was: why stay in a logi suit when all passive equipment is dropped down?
Midnight Cardinal UNITED MERCINARY AND PILOTS ALLIANCE 9	Posted - 2014.08.12 21:02:00 - [94] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: My point was uplinks as mobile spawn points that can be dropped a dozen at a time lessen the need for recovery equipment. It's often faster to have four people revive at an uplink than to needle and rep each one. Also uplinks reduce the need for map control and good movement habits. because uplink spam means you can instapop back up right on top of a contested objective. In all cases except outliers, he who spams links wins. I don't think one piece of equipment should overshadow all others that much. Whenever I happen to come across such a display of dumbassery, I do what any logical person would. Which is to say, oh I don't know... maybe pack one of those undervalued grenades, what were thay again? Ahh, yes, Flux grenades. They have a decent range, destroy equipment, and you carry two with a basic varient. The spam has a rather effective counter, but not everyone uses it. So if you could squeeze some fluxes on to one of your suits, or alert a squadmate, maybe try telling your logi to pack some fluxes; then you will find that the spam can be combated to a degree of managable circumstances. To be honest, any contested objective should be thoroughly fluxed before the first heavy waddles onto the scene. (This isn't just for breakin stuff. This is for anyone whom has a similar problem with spamming equipment.) Your heart pumps faster, you feel the power and energy of pure adrenaline. You're in my sights, you're gone in a moment.
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5055	Posted - 2014.08.12 21:13:00 - [95] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: I would like to see skills to further specialist in one equipment type. Call the skills (Equipment Type) Calibration or (Equipment Type) Proficiency. These skills would further allow logistic specialists to be the absolute best at what they do. For example... Repair Gun Calibration Prerequisite: Repair Tool Operation IV Rank x5 +2% to repair gun amount per level This is obviously something off the cuff, but you get the idea. Some other thoughts: eHP for logisitic dropsuits should increase Increasing movement speed for logistic dropsuits would be useful and fair WP from equipment needs to be closely evaluated. Triage and Guardian rewards are fine, but Intel Kill Assist is too low. Logistics dropsuits do not need a sidearm. Only the Amarr because it is more combat oriented, as stated in its description. Fixed. Be vigilant!, for there are those that remove the teabag BEFORE adding milk!. This is unacceptable!.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2734	Posted - 2014.08.12 21:27:00 - [96] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Doc DDD wrote: I didn't read anyones post above me so may be repeating someone else: Logis should have High ehp with crappy recharge/repair rates to take some hits while doing logi work so the logi/slayer role would be less desirable than pure slayer (assault). Logis spamming equipment is still ridiculous, 4 different SETS of hives spammed, go to supply depot, 4 more SETS, go to supply depot, 4 SETS of uplinks, go to supply depot, 4 more SETS of links, and suddenly the enemy team hits a LAG WALL when they get in range of all the spam. Would love to see a hard cap on equipment one player can drop to keep the garbage spam logis from filling rooms/areas with so much equipment that one flux gives the other team an orbital ( if you manage to get close enough to the lag wall to limp arm a flux) Please fix lame spam/glitch 9 uplinks at the highest point of a map, usually 2 feet inside a wall texture where even a flux can't remove it. Don't know if it is fixable but how about you need a 3 meter radius of flat ground surrounding an area for an uplink to 'stick'. 1 flux nade wipes out everything around a supply depo but yes it does get a little laggy at times Perhaps I'm just lucky but even when actively trying to create the equipment lag situation (several full proto logi deploying everything they could around the underground bunker depot) I have yet to encounter this myself which makes me strongly wonder if the equipment/lag correlation isn't either a false positive or more complex than simply 'more equip = more lag'. However, even with my own testing regimes giving a negative result on that correlation, there is clearly still something happening and this serves as a good reminder to investigate further and talk with CCP about it in greater depth. Cheers, Cross perhaps the lag is due to people on one side of the atlantic putting down dozens of deployables and people on the other side beign effective due to ping/latency? Doc DDD wrote: You lag less when you are actually "IN" the area of the spammed equipment, but if you are around 100m away on the opposite team and then approach the area that has been equipment spammed the ps3 starts puking and shaking. Interesting, I'll look into both of these aspects and see if something specific can be nailed down. Thanks guys See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
CELESTA AUNGM Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 200	Posted - 2014.08.12 21:28:00 - [97] - Quote I'm not sure how nearly every single firearm and explosive got into a thread that was aimed at "Logistics & Support",... but it makes for a cheerful laugh, LOL! My character is either a DS operator (transport only--I don't do ADS), or my character is an accompanying Repper/Nano-injector. As Repper/Nano-injector: I have no objections with the advanced or proto injectors in the game. For the player who has just been incapacitated and bleeding out, the Devs should consider REVERSING the function of the "call for help" button, to an "self-expire" button. This way, players who do NOT want to be resussitated will push the current button, and fellow players will see her character as already dead--no need to try to help her. The GLOW on other players, which tells them when they are being treated with a hand-repper from a fellow player, should be returned to the game. It is more valuable to us players than we consciously realize. Data and information during hectic gameplay is a VERY important factor in our decisions and movements. As a transport DROPSHIP-operator: I have no objections to the current WP we earn for transporting a successful passenger. My rewards seem quite acceptable. I WOULD suggest that Logistics Vehicles, which were temporarily removed from the game, be returned to the game with their logistic modules available on the market again. The GLOW around the vehicle, that signifies one of your protective/repair modules has been activated, needs to be REDUCED around the onboard-turret (reduced ONLY around the turret---the glow around the rest of the vehicle doesn't need to be altered). Again, data and information during hectic gameplay is a VERY important factor in our decisions and movements. While the glow helps the OPERATOR of the vehicle to know what's going on, the glow HAMPERS the gunner by obscuring her gunsight and distracting her aim. Universe of good wishes for the 49, especially CCP Eterne... No story can have life without writers and publishers.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 428	Posted - 2014.08.12 23:46:00 - [98] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: i disagree with your injector rant.. in charlie(or was it delta) they are getting changed.. pro get more WP as standard/mil get less.. OH and lets not forget Pro also Rep80%+ of the persons armor This has been delayed due to an unexpected tech barrier. This is the saddest thing I have read in a while. That's what I get for getting my hopes up... Hope is the first step on the Road to Disappointment [LogiBro in Training] channel: BP SQUAD
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 983	Posted - 2014.08.12 23:57:00 - [99] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Meee One wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross Logistics Mk.0 Injectors: WP as incentive is nice,but if a MLT frame can walk up and tap O to negate your Pro needle then the problem still remains. Doesn't really help shield tankers. -Need a needle priority system that uses the HIGHEST level needle when reviving. -Possibly reduce the amount of armor refilled and give a comperable amount of shields instead. Rep tool: Neon "kill me" sign. Can't outrep a MLT weapon with a Pro rep tool. Places logistics firmly on the frontlines of combat with its insanely short reach. Provides 0 incentive other than WP farming. Allies don't know they're being repaired. Doesn't really help shield tankers. -Remove the rep tool line to aid in logistics survival,leave the lock on boxes. -Give damage resistance while using (something like 65% to all damage) -Increase range by dramatic amounts for the logistics class. -Return the rep tool glow,but have it work like hit detection so an ally can see which side they are being repaired from -Negate shield recharge delays while used on allies,or recharge 25% of shields per hp/s restored. (eg sixkin 88 hp/s so 25% of 88) possibly reduce armor repair rate to compensate. Presto a rep tool that helps shield and armor. Hives - Any- Too easily destroyed by any stray explosions. Low carrying capacity. Low refilling amounts. (nanites) Annoying when a MLT frame stands on top throwing grenades at no one to use them faster. -Explosive resistance increase so it actually takes effort to destroy them. -+1 carried per level logistics bonus -Increased nanites -or- burst variants that refill faster but have lower nanites (think compact nanohives). -Disable grenades being refilled Scanners: Dat cooldown. -Nuff' said Uplinks: Actually alright R.E.s: The description says volitile chemicals yet i see scouts throw them from hights taller than their own suit,and sling them as if they are throwing frisbees. Are considered equipment yet can be refilled at nanohives. -Have them explode killing only the thrower if dropped from too high a height or slung with too much momentum -Disable refilling from hives Logistics suits: 30 more eHP than a scout Slower than heavier tanked mediums Bigger hitbox despite having less eHP Doesn't have the best regen despite having less eHP Doesn't have the best eHP despite its speed. When run as a support unit it costs easily 2x as much with 1/2 the survival Since logistics has more in common with scouts (ewar,equipment) logistics should be made to mimic them. -Keep the low eHP but in exchange give speed/stamina,regen amount and speed,and a smaller hitbox. This way it establishes a theme,support is fast and evasive,while killing is strong and durable. -Cut equipment costs by 50% minimal Based on personal experience,i would prefer to be harder to hit with better regen than have higher eHP. eHP just makes it too tempting to fight instead of support. i disagree with your injector rant.. in charlie(or was it delta) they are getting changed.. pro get more WP as standard/mil get less.. OH and lets not forget Pro also Rep80%+ of the persons armor Have you tried using one? I have mine ready,run up to a downed ally,press R1. A blueberry runs up with a garbage needle,presses O. Negates my Pro needle,and usually the newly revived ally gets gunned down immediately. Experienced it countless times. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 51	Posted - 2014.08.13 00:09:00 - [100] - Quote As a simple quality of life thing, I'd love to have my deployable equipment restock at supply depots without having to change suits.

Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 984	Posted - 2014.08.13 00:14:00 - [101] - Quote Bishop Harcourt wrote: Howdy Ya'll, Proto Minmatar logibro here. I had an idea based on what I perceived each races combat philosophy to be. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Amar: Mid range, slow moving continuous firefights. Give the (it hurts to type this) repp tool bonus that the Minlogi has to them. It never made much sense to give it to the logi with the lowest health and have them in the front lines. It would be better served on the most combat oriented Logistics suit, paired with the Sentinel with the highest armor HP. They would be a terror on the battlefield. Caldari: Long ranged, sustained engagements Keep the bonus to nanite injectors. Also the one to ammo nanohives, but add increase amount carried buy 1 per lvl. This would help when setting up forward and defensive positions. It will also allow for the Calogi to move with the battle as the situation dictates. Gallente: Short range, quick CQ brawlers I always thought the Galogi bonus was a little weak(the fact that its tied to the scanner, not the bonus itself), so I suggest also giving them the Calogi bonus to Armor Repair nano-hives. Give them this, but not the +1 per. This would help get Federation soldiers back in the fight faster after a brush up as well as allowing the them to know weather a counter offensive was inbound. Minmatar: Quick, hit and run Guerrilla warfare While the repper bonus is awesome, giving it to the Amlogi is (IMO) the best thing to do. So what about the Minlogi? Give them a minor(very minor I.E +1% damage per lvl) bonus to remotes/proxies and also the Amlogi's droplink bonus. Now before True starts with the "the droplinks are Amar tech" jabba wabba, hear me out. The Minmatar are about speed. Hit them hard, fast, and bug out. The bonuses I described would best fit their guerrilla tactic style of play. Setting an ambush on a supply convoy with proxie's, RE's in and around the road, with droplinks set in strategic locations. Then spawning in just as the frist proxy's blow. That to me sounds very Matari. So you other logi's mull it over and let me know. No,for very obvious reasons any true support logistics would understand. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 984	Posted - 2014.08.13 00:39:00 - [102] - Quote Straight up damage resistance would be OP. Instead explain it as a 'switch function' mode. While holding a weapon logistics would be in offense mode,0 damage reduction+0 bonuses. While holding/using an equipment logistics would be in defense mode,high damage reduction + speed/stamina boost + high regen + smaller hitbox This way logistics could outstrafe/regen scouts while using equipment (of the non explosive variety),but be worse than assaults using weapons. Logistics just became the #1 in survival using equipment. EDIT:If this is used,also remove the requirement for logistics to have a weapon. Make the weapon slot an optional equipment slot. This would effectively increase logistics equipment capacity by +1. And true support logistics would survive to use all of them. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 151	Posted - 2014.08.13 04:48:00 - [103] - Quote Only just finished reading page one, however things that need fixed at the moment. 1. A slight increase in the hit detection of the repair tool. 2. Nanite injectors should be whoever gets the needle in the person first. (These weekend logis are killin' me with their usage of O, they are getting more people killed with their late use of the injector than not.) 3. Logis need to be effective in all equipment and excellent with their specialized equipment. I.E. Better than every other role in the use of ALL equipment. 4. Core Focused Repair Tool needs to be brought back up to 175/sec base. If CCP goes though the stats I am sure it's use will be almost non-existent. It is already a very high risk tool due to it's range, at least make it high reward because at the moment it is only sitting at barely above the Six Kin Triage and definitely not enough to risk staying that close to the action. That is all I can think of for right now. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 151	Posted - 2014.08.13 04:55:00 - [104] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: 1) It may create some hate eye pointed at me but we should make RE's an option to carry in the Grenade slot instead of an equipment slot. Hear me out...you skill into it via the weapon tree and it uses the same access skills as the grenade. Why is it considered an equipment slot? There is also something about making you choose between your Core Locus, Wyrikomi AV grenade, or standard variant RE (that is more lethal then either of those two previously noted offerings!) And how would you propose one uses the grenade slot to activate remotes? Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Swarm Launchers 1) Velocity of swarm missiles needs to noticeably increase...Drop ships outrunning swarms borders on the ridiculous. I'm pretty deep into SP investment for SLs and honestly the damage they deliver now is adequate but delivering the damage to a drop ship in particular is very sketchy. 2) Lock range of SLs need a very mild increase. Recommendation would be to increase the lock range to 200m...the additional 25m's of range would be very well received and open up engagement opportunities noticeably. Anything less than 300m is just ineffectual. Lock-on range and travel-speed are nearly a singular issue Bah! I nearly forgot about my Logistics ak.0. I was wondering why a Logi would carry swarms. How about increasing lock on range to 200 and a swarm missile range dead stop to 250 with an 25-50% increased missile velocity. Swarms would be deadly within their bubble but dropships wouldn't have to sprint across the map just to outrun them. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 152	Posted - 2014.08.13 05:15:00 - [105] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: giving Minlogi a bonus to REs/Proxies... this would actually make sense, much more than the reptool, as the REs are actually Minmatar tech in spirit too, unlike the reptool. can you imagine the QQ? But, oh, it would be glorious. I hate you. But seriously. NO. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 153	Posted - 2014.08.13 06:50:00 - [106] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: i disagree with your injector rant.. in charlie(or was it delta) they are getting changed.. pro get more WP as standard/mil get less.. OH and lets not forget Pro also Rep80%+ of the persons armor This has been delayed due to an unexpected tech barrier. This is the saddest thing I have read in a while. That's what I get for getting my hopes up... Hope is the first step on the Road to Disappointment Hope was trapped in Pandora's Box will all of the rest of mankind's maladies for a reason. Because it is one of them. I do apologize for the excessive posting. This being a topic very need and dear to me continuing to play this game I figured I would comment as I read through this. However I have read it through and commented on what I thought important for me to comment on. However that is it for me tonight. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1990	Posted - 2014.08.13 07:55:00 - [107] - Quote Midnight Cardinal wrote: Whenever I happen to come across such a display of dumbassery, I do what any logical person would. Which is to say, oh I don't know... maybe pack one of those undervalued grenades, what were thay again? Ahh, yes, Flux grenades. They have a decent range, destroy equipment, and you carry two with a basic varient. The spam has a rather effective counter, but not everyone uses it. So if you could squeeze some fluxes on to one of your suits, or alert a squadmate, maybe try telling your logi to pack some fluxes; then you will find that the spam can be combated to a degree of managable circumstances. To be honest, any contested objective should be thoroughly fluxed before the first heavy waddles onto the scene. (This isn't just for breakin stuff. This is for anyone whom has a similar problem with spamming equipment.) If it was just a matter of "flux the cluster" I would never have made the post. There are maps where the layout makes doing that physically impossible. Destroying equipment is easy. But it is excessively difficult where the only reliable way to destroy all 8-16 of them is to use two people on the ground hunting and an ADS above to spot which gantry they happen to be on and pick them off. Further there is very little equipment variation between 90% of players. I get needled one out of every eight matches. Rep tooks are rarely on the field and visibly employed. My comando does more repping than most logis. Standard ammo hives are sporadic at best. Its not JUST drop uplinks. They are the biggest culprit for devaluing other tools because they are the single most useful item in taking and holding ground. Add triage hives, scanners and such and you devalue needles, rep tools, standard hives, etc. The uplinks also devalue map control and coordinated attack methods. Why mass for an attack when you can continuously spawn bodies right into the assault point and lemming the defenders to death?
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 203	Posted - 2014.08.13 09:15:00 - [108] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Midnight Cardinal wrote: Whenever I happen to come across such a display of dumbassery, I do what any logical person would. Which is to say, oh I don't know... maybe pack one of those undervalued grenades, what were thay again? Ahh, yes, Flux grenades. They have a decent range, destroy equipment, and you carry two with a basic varient. The spam has a rather effective counter, but not everyone uses it. So if you could squeeze some fluxes on to one of your suits, or alert a squadmate, maybe try telling your logi to pack some fluxes; then you will find that the spam can be combated to a degree of managable circumstances. To be honest, any contested objective should be thoroughly fluxed before the first heavy waddles onto the scene. (This isn't just for breakin stuff. This is for anyone whom has a similar problem with spamming equipment.) If it was just a matter of "flux the cluster" I would never have made the post. There are maps where the layout makes doing that physically impossible. Destroying equipment is easy. But it is excessively difficult where the only reliable way to destroy all 8-16 of them is to use two people on the ground hunting and an ADS above to spot which gantry they happen to be on and pick them off. Agreed Further there is very little equipment variation between 90% of players. I get needled one out of every eight matches. Rep tooks are rarely on the field and visibly employed. My comando does more repping than most logis. Standard ammo hives are sporadic at best. It's an interesting comment, the hardest part about being a logi is having the right tool/equipment ready at the right time. If I am running solo I will flick between rep tool and weapon. In a squad It is different. Do you run in a squad with dedicated logi or solo? Its not JUST drop uplinks. They are the biggest culprit for devaluing other tools because they are the single most useful item in taking and holding ground. Add triage hives, scanners and such and you devalue needles, rep tools, standard hives, etc. The uplinks also devalue map control and coordinated attack methods. Why mass for an attack when you can continuously spawn bodies right into the assault point and lemming the defenders to death? I agree with this, what would your idea be to make the deployment of links and hives more tactical bearing in mind any one who is skilled in them can use them? Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1990	Posted - 2014.08.13 10:06:00 - [109] - Quote Due to circumstances largely out of my control, solo usually. I am speaking more from a strategic, team level. I dont really care if I get caught by a smart enemy squad and repeatedly killed. So that has no bearing on the conversation. By smart I mean full support and focused fire, reps, whatever. When I find triage hive heroes I swap to mass drivers and f**k them up. I do not count "link lemmings" as smart squads even if they can be overwhelming fast. As far as more tactical? I would leave the number of links allowed to remain static. However I would make it so only 2 can be active at once. When one link is destroyed the next link in line goes hot. That way you cannot omni-vector an attack. You must still utilize tactics and map control. Alternately revert all drop uplinks to squad-only. The game should be about team tactics and reward teamwork, not cater to solo, wannabe Rambo pubstars. Would these changes likely hose me, the habitually solo player? Yes. Do I care? No. I'm not joining your pubbie squads of tryhards who care about these matches as anything more than personal entertainment and gank opportunities. But since that is my choice I am copacetic not receiving the same advantages of an organized squad.
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5066	Posted - 2014.08.13 10:15:00 - [110] - Quote Meee One wrote: Bishop Harcourt wrote: Howdy Ya'll, Proto Minmatar logibro here. I had an idea based on what I perceived each races combat philosophy to be. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Amar: Mid range, slow moving continuous firefights. Give the (it hurts to type this) repp tool bonus that the Minlogi has to them. It never made much sense to give it to the logi with the lowest health and have them in the front lines. It would be better served on the most combat oriented Logistics suit, paired with the Sentinel with the highest armor HP. They would be a terror on the battlefield. Caldari: Long ranged, sustained engagements Keep the bonus to nanite injectors. Also the one to ammo nanohives, but add increase amount carried buy 1 per lvl. This would help when setting up forward and defensive positions. It will also allow for the Calogi to move with the battle as the situation dictates. Gallente: Short range, quick CQ brawlers I always thought the Galogi bonus was a little weak(the fact that its tied to the scanner, not the bonus itself), so I suggest also giving them the Calogi bonus to Armor Repair nano-hives. Give them this, but not the +1 per. This would help get Federation soldiers back in the fight faster after a brush up as well as allowing the them to know weather a counter offensive was inbound. Minmatar: Quick, hit and run Guerrilla warfare While the repper bonus is awesome, giving it to the Amlogi is (IMO) the best thing to do. So what about the Minlogi? Give them a minor(very minor I.E +1% damage per lvl) bonus to remotes/proxies and also the Amlogi's droplink bonus. Now before True starts with the "the droplinks are Amar tech" jabba wabba, hear me out. The Minmatar are about speed. Hit them hard, fast, and bug out. The bonuses I described would best fit their guerrilla tactic style of play. Setting an ambush on a supply convoy with proxie's, RE's in and around the road, with droplinks set in strategic locations. Then spawning in just as the frist proxy's blow. That to me sounds very Matari. So you other logi's mull it over and let me know. No,for very obvious reasons any true support logistics would understand. Logi since beta here. Just no. Be vigilant!, for there are those that remove the teabag BEFORE adding milk!. This is unacceptable!.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1992	Posted - 2014.08.13 10:32:00 - [111] - Quote Were I to change any logi bonus I would give the armor rep bonus to the gallente, given that rep speed has always been a gallente thing. I would give minmatar the scan bonus for two reasons. 1: Target painters, which scanners are the closest thing to. Target painters are traditionally minnie ewar. 2: skirmish tactics. Being a fast attack is all well and good but fast, fragile groups that blindly dive on enemy positions die by the numbers. Intel makes fast attack viable. Personally I would give logis a passive Area recovery buff as a role bonus. Gallente logi: provides allied dropsuits +25% onboard repair when within 30m. This would be a bonus to your low slot reps. Not your rep tool. Minmatar: +25% reduction in shied recharge delay and depleted delay. Within 30m Caldari: +25% shield regen per second. After recharge delay ends. Within 30m Amarr: +10% damage resistance to armor in 30m Bonuses are not stackable. Bonus priority goes to matching suit class. So if you have a cal logi and amarr logi in range if you are in a gal/amarr suit the amarr logi bonus applies. Matching race to race as priority. Give people a reason to use racial doctrines
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1993	Posted - 2014.08.13 11:47:00 - [112] - Quote Bear in mind I dont think my amarr bonus example is a good idea. It's an example only. Reason: existing sentinel resistance bonusing. But I think bonuses like this would be more appropos than direct suit buffs to equipment types. And like warfare links, only one of these suit bonuses should apply to a squad. Solo pubstars should again be encouraged to join squads to benefit from logi bonuses. Emphasize teamwork and suit doctrine synergy. That makes logis a critical team component and a priority to kill/defend. But things that encourage new players to squad up are good. Things that encourage coordination and tactics are good. Buffing solo pubstars is bad. Scouts should be the only solo operators.
Emmalyn Nairn Enlightened Infantries Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 13	Posted - 2014.08.13 13:26:00 - [113] - Quote Shield rep tool TIA drops mic walks off stage Free Sigberct and Christopher
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 988	Posted - 2014.08.13 13:32:00 - [114] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Due to circumstances largely out of my control, solo usually. I am speaking more from a strategic, team level. I dont really care if I get caught by a smart enemy squad and repeatedly killed. So that has no bearing on the conversation. By smart I mean full support and focused fire, reps, whatever. When I find triage hive heroes I swap to mass drivers and f**k them up. I do not count "link lemmings" as smart squads even if they can be overwhelming fast. As far as more tactical? I would leave the number of links allowed to remain static. However I would make it so only 2 can be active at once. When one link is destroyed the next link in line goes hot. That way you cannot omni-vector an attack. You must still utilize tactics and map control. Alternately revert all drop uplinks to squad-only. The game should be about team tactics and reward teamwork, not cater to solo, wannabe Rambo pubstars. Would these changes likely hose me, the habitually solo player? Yes. Do I care? No. I'm not joining your pubbie squads of tryhards who care about these matches as anything more than personal entertainment and gank opportunities. But since that is my choice I am copacetic not receiving the same advantages of an organized squad. I hate it when people on these forums use the words 'tactics' or tactical' because it ALWAYS means "lets make support even harder to do by limiting options even FURTHER". And your post sums up to exactly that. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 988	Posted - 2014.08.13 13:41:00 - [115] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Were I to change any logi bonus I would give the armor rep bonus to the gallente, given that rep speed has always been a gallente thing. I would give minmatar the scan bonus for two reasons. 1: Target painters, which scanners are the closest thing to. Target painters are traditionally minnie ewar. 2: skirmish tactics. Being a fast attack is all well and good but fast, fragile groups that blindly dive on enemy positions die by the numbers. Intel makes fast attack viable. Personally I would give logis a passive Area recovery buff as a role bonus. Gallente logi: provides allied dropsuits +25% onboard repair when within 20m. This would be a bonus to your low slot reps. Not your rep tool. Minmatar: +25% reduction in shied recharge delay and depleted delay. Within 20m Caldari: +25% shield regen per second. After recharge delay ends. Within 20m Amarr: +10% damage resistance to armor in 20m Bonuses are not stackable. Bonus priority goes to matching suit class. So if you have a cal logi and amarr logi in range if you are in a gal/amarr suit the amarr logi bonus applies. Matching race to race as priority. Give people a reason to use racial doctrines FTFY +1 sort of.. Your suggestion about bonus swapping is garbage. AOE bonuses are a good idea,as long as it isn't restricted to being in a squad. I made the ranges shorter so people are forced to earn them by being close enough to take a bullet for them,not just leech and let the logi die with no support. You give support you get support,give and take. Also,stop trying to make your bad ideas seem good by slipping the word 'tactical' in them,you clearly don't understand what it means. EDIT:about the AOE bonuses...you have some major holes... For example,around a shield based suit which bonuses apply? Min for speed or Cal for amount? Or an armor based suit? Gal for reps or Amarr for damage resistance? Would these bonuses apply to logis? What if 2 Min logis team up for super regen and go all killer bee? Or bricking Gal? Or bricking Cal with Complex regs? Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1996	Posted - 2014.08.13 14:25:00 - [116] - Quote Dont lecture me on tactics. Tactics are things (methods) you use to maximize strength and minimize weakness as a team. I have no sympathy for solo players. This includes myself. The tactical doctrine I am operating from is one born of my experience operating in squads. Both in game and IRL. There is no benefit to the team as a whole by catering to solo pubstars who do not squad up and coordinate for victory. Support is by definition a team role. Therefore it should be balanced according to operation in a squad. Support (team) roles include but are not limited to: Logistics. Sniper. Commando suppression. Sentinels period. AV. All of these roles are built to support a squad. The only role in this game that is intended to operate independently of squad support is the scout. The scout excels in this role. Now that being said, any one dropsuit, weapon or piece of equipment that outshines all others diminishes tactical choices by being clearly superior is bad for game balance and choice. By not utilizing drop uplinks, triage hives and scanners in the current meta YOU ARE GIMPING YOUR TEAM. This is a problem which needs to be addressed. Tactics are making choices that matter to achieve victory and engaging. When I task the squad newbro to "clear the enemy drop uplinks first!" While the hardened vets butcher the spawning enemy this is called "tactics." Logi/sentinel teams are a tactic. Having snipers call out concentrations of enemy while focusing on the elimination of rep tools this is a tactic. Simply bricktanking and bullrushing is a tactic. Its a stupid tactic. Building a squad around four plate loaded amarr assault supported by an HMG amarr sentinel, plated with a plated and rep tanked logi, with the four assaults carrying scramblers, the logi running a laser and the assault carrying two needles, two rep tools and the logi running a full support loadout is a strategy decision rife with synergy and fast recovery between assaults or enemy waves. The tactics that succeed will revolve around the strengths of an amarr brawler squad. Don't insult the intelligence of every person on this forum by claiming that you disliking my ideas means I dont know what tactics are. Im more aware of what that is than most of you all. I even get to draw on real life experience and training which translates phenomenally well into DUST. I believe that DUST should be balanced at the squad level, not based on solo weekend warrior anecdotes. Teamwork should be rewarded, Ramboing should be derided.
RogueTrooper 2000AD Neckbeard Absolution 194	Posted - 2014.08.13 14:41:00 - [117] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Dont lecture me on tactics. Tactics are things (methods) you use to maximize strength and minimize weakness as a team. I have no sympathy for solo players. This includes myself. The tactical doctrine I am operating from is one born of my experience operating in squads. Both in game and IRL. There is no benefit to the team as a whole by catering to solo pubstars who do not squad up and coordinate for victory. Support is by definition a team role. Therefore it should be balanced according to operation in a squad. Support (team) roles include but are not limited to: Logistics. Sniper. Commando suppression. Sentinels period. AV. All of these roles are built to support a squad. The only role in this game that is intended to operate independently of squad support is the scout. The scout excels in this role. Now that being said, any one dropsuit, weapon or piece of equipment that outshines all others diminishes tactical choices by being clearly superior is bad for game balance and choice. By not utilizing drop uplinks, triage hives and scanners in the current meta YOU ARE GIMPING YOUR TEAM. This is a problem which needs to be addressed. Tactics are making choices that matter to achieve victory and engaging. When I task the squad newbro to "clear the enemy drop uplinks first!" While the hardened vets butcher the spawning enemy this is called "tactics." Logi/sentinel teams are a tactic. Having snipers call out concentrations of enemy while focusing on the elimination of rep tools this is a tactic. Simply bricktanking and bullrushing is a tactic. Its a stupid tactic. Building a squad around four plate loaded amarr assault supported by an HMG amarr sentinel, plated with a plated and rep tanked logi, with the four assaults carrying scramblers, the logi running a laser and the assault carrying two needles, two rep tools and the logi running a full support loadout is a strategy decision rife with synergy and fast recovery between assaults or enemy waves. The tactics that succeed will revolve around the strengths of an amarr brawler squad. Don't insult the intelligence of every person on this forum by claiming that you disliking my ideas means I dont know what tactics are. Im more aware of what that is than the loud among you who think tactics and gun game are the same. I even get to draw on real life experience and training which translates phenomenally well into DUST. I believe that DUST should be balanced at the squad level, not based on solo weekend warrior anecdotes. Teamwork should be rewarded, Ramboing should be derided. Edited to change a statemen that on review was magically stupid. Nothing 'caters' to them, solo and brick tankers will continue to do so regardless. We have already been through trying to balance against them and it leads to a whole lot of nothing and going around in circles. You then say dust should be balanced at the squad level, yet, you want to balance around solo scum and brick tankers?. 2/10 remove your corp tag. Service with a smile
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1996	Posted - 2014.08.13 15:26:00 - [118] - Quote RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote: You then say dust should be balanced at the squad level, yet, you want to balance around solo scum and brick tankers?. If that somehow slipped in there as a thing I need to find it and edit that crap out in a hurry. Screw solo scum. Screw brick tankers. I said brick tanking was a tactic, not a good one. Balance DUST around a team play.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2743	Posted - 2014.08.13 15:44:00 - [119] - Quote Good to see the discussion still going strong, keep it up. Also, let's bring it a bit back round to focusing on each issue and suggestion more fully. Again, debating points, totally valid. Stating meta goals and their supporting or detracting reasons, quite useful. But making declarations such as "X play is stupid", "Y player type sucks", or "Z bit of gear is OP" doesn't really provide anything actionable. If something is bad, UP/OP or even just pisses you off, then sure, call it out but explain clearly and calmly why because simply making the declaration that "a,b,c are terribad and have to go" doesn't actually give me anything additional to work with or present. Thanks for keeping this thread live and hopping o7 Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2000	Posted - 2014.08.13 16:02:00 - [120] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Good to see the discussion still going strong, keep it up. Also, let's bring it a bit back round to focusing on each issue and suggestion more fully. Again, debating points, totally valid. Stating meta goals and their supporting or detracting reasons, quite useful. But making declarations such as "X play is stupid", "Y player type sucks", or "Z bit of gear is OP" doesn't really provide anything actionable. If something is bad, UP/OP or even just pisses you off, then sure, call it out but explain clearly and calmly why because simply making the declaration that "a,b,c are terribad and have to go" doesn't actually give me anything additional to work with or present. Thanks for keeping this thread live and hopping o7 Cross My problem with Links, triage hives and scanners is NOT that they are overpowered. They merely outshine OTHER methods in utility. A good armor rep will do 75 HP/sec-ish. A Triage hive will do 70/cycle (the most recent one I was hit with) to the entire squad and get them to max and can be refilled by doing a double suit swap at a supply depot. You can also have multiple triage hives dropped in a cluster around a corner for the rough equivalent of having 2-4 Logistics with rep tools fixing you simultaneously for fast recovery. Winner: Triage hive by a CLEAR margin over the armor repair tool. Scanners: they are now must-have. Because the Gal Logi is the only suit bonused for their use, Gal-Logi is the most commonly seen logi suit. Is the scanner by itself overpowered? Absolutely not. It's affect on the meta for logistic suit choice is disproportionate to it's utility because the only suit that can have a chance of spotting a scout with the device is the gallente logistics. Because rather than having a random margin for error, it's a simple if/and statement. Either you succeed or you fail with no variation or middle ground. Hence it is most useful to have a gallente suit on the field for tactical intel. Scouts are relegated to assassination. Drop uplinks: Can be spammed in large tight clusters around objectives, do not cease functioning when you die/refit and can be placed in impossible to kill spots. I've seen them place IN walls deliberately where fluxes cannot touch them. Further the sheer AMOUNT of spam means everyone on the team can rock and attack/assassin fit without any support roles because you can quick muster on top of an objective and lemming-drop en masse. The only place where this is counterable is when the uplinks are all clustered in one spot (Like in a room on the same floor level together). That allows for fluxing, but most people aren't stupid, and find interesting places to hide them out of nade radius of each other. To continue, respawning at an uplink as a group means everyone pops up at full health, max ammo, and refreshed equipment. They minimize the need to hold capture points, supply depots and CRUs. You can substitute uplinks for armor reps, needles and hives combined because you can, in fact, drown the enemy in bodies, Stalin style. There is little to no drawback to choosing uplinks, and every advantage by doing so. They are the single most useful piece of equipment in the game all the way back to beta when the watchword was "Don't revive me, I'll spawn at the link with full health." In no case are these three items overpowered individually. But it's the affect on the meta and tactical choices that make other decisions less meaningful the way they are right now. They are easy substitutes that have greater efficiency than other pieces of equipment. Also before someone starts ranting about logi + sentinel combo, consider the Mass Driver. Once it is employed the logi must disengage from the sentinel or die. your buddies can pick off the sentinel rapidly after.

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2744	Posted - 2014.08.13 16:08:00 - [121] - Quote Also, with the latest hotfix if anything has changed your feedback due to the altered context please note that when posting so that we can properly track the effects of the hotfix process regarding this topic. Thanks Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2000	Posted - 2014.08.13 16:12:00 - [122] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Also, with the latest hotfix if anything has changed your feedback due to the altered context please note that when posting so that we can properly track the effects of the hotfix process regarding this topic. Thanks Cross My statements should be unaffected by hotfix charlie given the patch notes I read.
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5070	Posted - 2014.08.13 16:23:00 - [123] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Also, with the latest hotfix if anything has changed your feedback due to the altered context please note that when posting so that we can properly track the effects of the hotfix process regarding this topic. Thanks Cross Its fine, the new HP values mean that I really do have to concentrate on support now. Shock horror!. PS. Tiered number of targets for rep tool at ADV, std and proto please. 1/2/3. A rolling nade is worth two in ambush.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2787	Posted - 2014.08.13 16:43:00 - [124] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Also, with the latest hotfix if anything has changed your feedback due to the altered context please note that when posting so that we can properly track the effects of the hotfix process regarding this topic. Thanks Cross I need to really dig into the numbers to confirm, but basically what I'm seeing in a very preliminary analysis.. ~Assaults and Logistics have similar slot layouts ~Assaults and Logistics have similar resources ~Assaults get a 'cheaper' Light Weapon and Grenade ~Logistics gets a 'free' equipment from 25% reduction of 4 equipment ~Assaults get a sidearm, Logistics do not. ~Logistics has lower base HP than Assaults So Logistics with the current bonus need to fit 2 additional equipment over the Assault (Assuming their's 4 equipment is free with current bonus). Assaults need to fit a sidearm, but cost reduction of Light Weapon and Grenade help compensate for this additional cost. So essentially Logistics need to fit 2 addition equipment over the assault, with the same resources and a lower base HP. Assuming the Logi fits full proto equipment, this means that it will be unable to fit the same level of defenses as an Assault. While the Logi SHOULD have weaker defenses to an extent than the Assault, I worry that this difference paired with the lower base HP and regenerative abilities, will make the Logistics excessivly weak compared to the Assault.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 271	Posted - 2014.08.13 19:49:00 - [125] - Quote Been watching this thread, haven't been able to post. Kinda glad too since now that Charlie has deployed I can "run through the numbers" and see where specifically I think we could use tweaks. That being said, I do have a couple of things which are Charlie notwithstanding: oh, first, MinLogi since open beta, primarily PC last couple months tho the last couple weeks have been quiet-ish. Okay, a couple things too help the logistics class as a whole- 1. The infamous Sprint Glitch has to get fixed. Now that Shayz has posted his vid this'll happen hopefully, it can not be understated the impact this glitch has on our class since constant movement is a fundamental for us and if any class is cycling equipment its the logi. 2. Scouts need to lose that second equipment slot. I know, you all hate me now. I'm sorry. I hate myself for being the one to say it. But has to be said. Light frames moving ultra fast, tanking HP and by profile being undetectable outside of their class unless major accommodations are made should NOT be additionally empowered to cloak AND uplinkspam/rep/revive/re. To do the sort of forward position recon/inside insertion establishment (SCOUTING) they are for their base stats with pg/cpu accomodation for ONE equipment is enough. You are plenty stealthy, and extremely lethal. The second slot just feeds the abuses others document in previous comments/other threads. I <3 you, actual scouts. 3. (riot time) Logistics class should be a level 5 Dropsuit Command unlock. That's right. Drop suit Command to level 5 before accessing Logi frames. For a long time now the logistics class has been inundated by tourists. Individuals who maybe started a character, learned enough to recognize the WP/SP relationship to progression who then undertake the role SOLELY in a point farming capacity to speed their own progression into w/e FOTM they actually want. THESE are the mil needle/rep farmers. These are the HIV next to the supply depot farmers. These are the largely ignorant/disinterested "logis" running around bricktanked spamming what little equipment they can carry after their 0 coreskill investment HP load allows, slaying. Make the role and the class of LOGISTICS a dedicated decision whose impact on the field is reflective of its users' having entered intentionally, not as a peripheral, not as a WP farm stepstone. This will also help w/ players without some of the fundamental gameplay knowledge or experience entering the class, being silly on the field and then ridiculous on the forums. 4-? We need movement buffs, walking and rotation speed. Something HP/regen side, personally I'm more a fan of less HP boost, more regen but that's me and my style. I don't think bonuses need a huge amount of revamping, I like Appia's expansion on the bonusing tho. It keeps the existing bonuses and structure we have while expanding the individual equipment bonuses across the class. and I would frikin' love to have a light weapon AND a sidearm. But, I want to actually play in Charlie before requesting too much after 1-3. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 272	Posted - 2014.08.13 20:11:00 - [126] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: However at the moment the difference between a rep logi and a great rep logi is being in squad and saying "By the Power of GraySkull! [insert name] has the POWER!!!". FTFY Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Roger Cordill The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 415	Posted - 2014.08.13 20:14:00 - [127] - Quote So, the title asks for logi and support feedback, yet all people talks about is logistic dropsuits and Scout suits. Bummer, as vehicles do exist,and in some form or another they are support tools, really mainly support tools. Yet they've been turned into a bloody ******* mess.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 272	Posted - 2014.08.13 20:35:00 - [128] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: So, the title asks for logi and support feedback, yet all people talks about is logistic dropsuits and Scout suits. Bummer, as vehicles do exist,and in some form or another they are support tools, really mainly support tools. Yet they've been turned into a bloody ******* mess. Yes, this is primarily discussing Logi suits and Charlie. If you have vehicle perspectived input within a support context (maybe you like the idea of reppers doing higher repair values on your hull) bring it on in. If your contribution is outside the discussion context, we'll let you know. Civilly. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2009	Posted - 2014.08.13 21:46:00 - [129] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: So, the title asks for logi and support feedback, yet all people talks about is logistic dropsuits and Scout suits. Bummer, as vehicles do exist,and in some form or another they are support tools, really mainly support tools. Yet they've been turned into a bloody ******* mess. vehicles are there to support infantry pushes so vehicular roles in support (of particular note is the mobile CRU) then its a valid thing. its not a discussion of AV and interactions with killing/being killed.
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 154	Posted - 2014.08.13 23:23:00 - [130] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: However at the moment the difference between a rep logi and a great rep logi is being in squad and saying "By the Power of GraySkull! [insert name] has the POWER!!!". FTFY Legit lol, and you better believe I'll be ******* using that. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 273	Posted - 2014.08.13 23:34:00 - [131] - Quote wtf is this **** I'm reading about the Charlie update that the Amarr Logi lost its sidearm? I thought the patch notes had that being left for Delta? Is Wayne Brady gonna have to punch a support ticket?? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2745	Posted - 2014.08.13 23:58:00 - [132] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: So, the title asks for logi and support feedback, yet all people talks about is logistic dropsuits and Scout suits. Bummer, as vehicles do exist,and in some form or another they are support tools, really mainly support tools. Yet they've been turned into a bloody ******* mess. We've had a bit of dropship feedback in here, but you are correct mostly there hasn't been support vehicle talk so far, but by all means anyone who plays support on board a HAV/LAV/DS feel free to speak up. While there certainly is a bit of an infantry focus going on here that should not in any way discourage posting from a vehicle support perspective. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2745	Posted - 2014.08.14 00:00:00 - [133] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: However at the moment the difference between a rep logi and a great rep logi is being in squad and saying "By the Power of GraySkull! [insert name] has the POWER!!!". FTFY If there were enough room I would totally make this a sig See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 2930	Posted - 2014.08.14 00:06:00 - [134] - Quote Oh hey there. I made this thread some time back on the subject of Logi bonuses. I'm too lazy to retype so I linked it. It sums up my thoughts (they're not very many) For the record, my "support" fits are merely scouts. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 994	Posted - 2014.08.14 00:48:00 - [135] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: We've had a bit of dropship feedback in here, but you are correct mostly there hasn't been support vehicle talk so far, but by all means anyone who plays support on board a HAV/LAV/DS feel free to speak up. While there certainly is a bit of an infantry focus going on here that should not in any way discourage posting from a vehicle support perspective. Some of the problem is that there's a paucity of support options available to vehicle users. If I had the option to drive an ambulance around dispensing healing and ammo like a mardi gras parade, I'd jump at the chance. Dust/Eve transfers
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2746	Posted - 2014.08.14 01:25:00 - [136] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Cross Atu wrote: We've had a bit of dropship feedback in here, but you are correct mostly there hasn't been support vehicle talk so far, but by all means anyone who plays support on board a HAV/LAV/DS feel free to speak up. While there certainly is a bit of an infantry focus going on here that should not in any way discourage posting from a vehicle support perspective. Some of the problem is that there's a paucity of support options available to vehicle users. If I had the option to drive an ambulance around dispensing healing and ammo like a mardi gras parade, I'd jump at the chance. Perhaps if we can get the LLAV back in you'll have that option, or at least more of it See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1182	Posted - 2014.08.14 01:47:00 - [137] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross No changes needed for suits, but all Drop Uplinks should only let you carry 1 per slot, per suit. Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 156	Posted - 2014.08.14 01:55:00 - [138] - Quote Just tossing out there but... On logistics suits equipment regens 1/2 minutes. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 994	Posted - 2014.08.14 01:57:00 - [139] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Perhaps if we can get the LLAV back in you'll have that option, or at least more of it Maybe, but LLAVs can't go back in the way they used to be. IMO serious logi vehicles need to be HAVs (preferably with a non-functional large turret) because you need to stay still to rep people and the exposed passengers in a LAV just isn't going to work with that. Dust/Eve transfers
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 989	Posted - 2014.08.14 06:46:00 - [140] - Quote POST charlie update: Logis are still killed first,even if a rep scout is 2 feet from them,the scout will be ignored and if the logi tries to flee they get hunted mercilessly.(Experienced over 10 times today) Logis are officially the LEAST surviving suits in the game,being unable to hide,regen damage,tank damage,or even run away. Once a logi is seen they're dead,usually by a suit that costs 1/6th of theirs or even free. Logis have officially been teathered to heavies,seeing as assaults are too fast for logis to render active support,scouts don't need support.And logis can usually only match a heavies pace even though they are 30eHP from scouts. Walking while using a rep tool...nuff said. Logis are too easily killed,by identification,general stray shots. Low eHP means harder to hit,but not in logis case. Aiming down sights suit information guarantees logis die first,every time. Equipment costs are too insane to consecutively deploy as a support logi,considering scouts have a better survival rating. To sum up,logis that stay logis during this time of hardship are true logis.(Or have major corp backing) The simplest indirect buff logis could receive would be a reduction to equipment costs (50-75%). The one thing that kills support logis the most isn't shotgun scouts,or even HMG heavies,it's the costs of trying to be a pure support player. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2011	Posted - 2014.08.14 07:48:00 - [141] - Quote Oh the previous poster absolutely brings up s brilliant point. Logis do not have the speed to support a push of assaults. This is a massive problem given their low survivability under fire. A logi caught alone is likely helpless against opportunistic killers. They need to be as fast as a assault team of the same race. I would posit that making a logi 10-15% faster than an assault so they can respond faster to needed support actions and can dive for cover when under direct fire. In my experience in coordinated squad vs coordinated squad, whoever loses the logi first gets shredded.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 203	Posted - 2014.08.14 08:03:00 - [142] - Quote It's a good job that the reduction in logi speed didn't go through in HF Charlie then. I played a few matches last night ( not as a logi ) and didn't see many logi at all. I played 5 matches, all in skirmish so maybe it's not the best place to look. Also wasn't seeing as many heavy frames on the field so that may reduce the number of logi's as well. Not sure whether people are seeing this in all game modes. Best place to look would be ambush or domination. I may log on later and check it out. Seems that most people are trying new shinies atm. Absolutely the equipment costs should come down but that has a positive effect for everyone. A slight increase in base movement speed probably wouldn't go amiss anyway, maybe more so now the battlefield got a little more fluid. To be honest we have got to give HF Charlie time to bed in , as I stated in the original HF C discussion, before we consider any logi changes. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2800	Posted - 2014.08.14 18:33:00 - [143] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Cross Atu wrote: We've had a bit of dropship feedback in here, but you are correct mostly there hasn't been support vehicle talk so far, but by all means anyone who plays support on board a HAV/LAV/DS feel free to speak up. While there certainly is a bit of an infantry focus going on here that should not in any way discourage posting from a vehicle support perspective. Some of the problem is that there's a paucity of support options available to vehicle users. If I had the option to drive an ambulance around dispensing healing and ammo like a mardi gras parade, I'd jump at the chance. Perhaps if we can get the LLAV back in you'll have that option, or at least more of it The only way the LLAV would be useful for anything other than running people over, is if the locking system for reps was altered significantly. The time to aim and lock with the LLAV repair module was so clunky and long that it was better to just hop out and do it manually with the infantry tool. I'm not sure your technical limitations, but I'd like to see something more like an AoE bubble, similar to a repping nanohive, that would rep all infantry in the vicinity. If they can manage that sort of function, I will gladly go back into LLAVs and actually use them as a true support vehicle.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 991	Posted - 2014.08.15 03:46:00 - [144] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: It's a good job that the reduction in logi speed didn't go through in HF Charlie then. I played a few matches last night ( not as a logi ) and didn't see many logi at all. I played 5 matches, all in skirmish so maybe it's not the best place to look. Also wasn't seeing as many heavy frames on the field so that may reduce the number of logi's as well. Not sure whether people are seeing this in all game modes. Best place to look would be ambush or domination. I may log on later and check it out. Seems that most people are trying new shinies atm. Absolutely the equipment costs should come down but that has a positive effect for everyone. A slight increase in base movement speed probably wouldn't go amiss anyway, maybe more so now the battlefield got a little more fluid. To be honest we have got to give HF Charlie time to bed in , as I stated in the original HF C discussion, before we consider any logi changes. Yes equipment costs going down would benefit everyone. But it would MAJORLY benefit logis who run 3 on their suit. Currently logis must choose between survival and support,and most pick survival because it's cheaper. This is the only game i've ever played where support is punished so heavily in EVERYTHING they do. "Wanna run support? It'll cost ya an arm,a leg,oh and you'll be the easiest killed in the game. But hey you can have more equipment,who cares if you can't survive to use it all...everyone loves knowing regardless of which suit they pick they have a guaranteed victim." "So why not support?" Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 994	Posted - 2014.08.15 03:54:00 - [145] - Quote I hadn't realised that, but I agree. Combat fits only have to care about proto weapons hitting their wallet, of which generally only one costs a lot. logistics suits have the same problem, magnified three- or four-fold. Dust/Eve transfers
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5118	Posted - 2014.08.15 03:59:00 - [146] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: I hadn't realised that, but I agree. Combat fits only have to care about proto weapons hitting their wallet, of which generally only one costs a lot. logistics suits have the same problem, magnified three- or four-fold. Just 4 restocks on my proto hives is about 117k isk. 24k for a proto rep tool I believe. 7k for an injector which is ok I believe, saves as many lives as I want which is what its all about for me, when I logi. Going off it these days, I find myself only doing it when I have to baby sit nubs or want to spectate (rep slave). A rolling nade is worth two in ambush.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 992	Posted - 2014.08.15 04:24:00 - [147] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: I hadn't realised that, but I agree. Combat fits only have to care about proto weapons hitting their wallet, of which generally only one costs a lot. logistics suits have the same problem, magnified three- or four-fold. Just 4 restocks on my proto hives is about 117k isk. 24k for a proto rep tool I believe. 7k for an injector which is ok I believe, saves as many lives as I want which is what its all about for me, when I logi. Going off it these days, I find myself only doing it when I have to baby sit nubs or want to spectate (rep slave). Core focused is 35k. Any Pro hives 22k and up. Any Pro uplinks 22k and up. Any Pro scanners 22k and up. So the avg Pro logi carries 4 equipment. Any combination of the 4 equipment is freaking expensive. And those aren't the special versions like the triage hives,i think those are nearly 30k for 3 of them, that's 10k per hive (which CCP made easier to be destroyed btw). 1-1.5k grenade = loss of a 10k investment. I could understand the costs if they increased your safety,but any logi besides Min has to stay at 7.5m (11m for Min) to use the most expensive repair tool the core focused,and yet the blasted thing can't even out repair a MLT RR. Running ADV is costly too as any support logi tries to maximise their equipment without gimping themselves to badly. Put that all together with the low base stats that specialise in neither eHP (like a heavy),or speed/health regen and evasion (like a scout). You have a roll of very expensive tissue paper carrying other rolls of very expensive tissue paper. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5119	Posted - 2014.08.15 04:36:00 - [148] - Quote Meee One wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: I hadn't realised that, but I agree. Combat fits only have to care about proto weapons hitting their wallet, of which generally only one costs a lot. logistics suits have the same problem, magnified three- or four-fold. Just 4 restocks on my proto hives is about 117k isk. 24k for a proto rep tool I believe. 7k for an injector which is ok I believe, saves as many lives as I want which is what its all about for me, when I logi. Going off it these days, I find myself only doing it when I have to baby sit nubs or want to spectate (rep slave). Core focused is 35k. Any Pro hives 22k and up. Any Pro uplinks 22k and up. Any Pro scanners 22k and up. So the avg Pro logi carries 4 equipment. Any combination of the 4 equipment is freaking expensive. And those aren't the special versions like the triage hives,i think those are nearly 30k for 3 of them, that's 10k per hive (which CCP made easier to be destroyed btw). 1-1.5k grenade = loss of a 10k investment. I could understand the costs if they increased your safety,but any logi besides Min has to stay at 7.5m (11m for Min) to use the most expensive repair tool the core focused,and yet the blasted thing can't even out repair a MLT RR. Running ADV is costly too as any support logi tries to maximise their equipment without gimping themselves to badly. Put that all together with the low base stats that specialise in neither eHP (like a heavy),or speed/health regen and evasion (like a scout). You have a roll of very expensive tissue paper carrying other rolls of very expensive tissue paper. Yeah. Am I supposed to have learnt something there?, I am confused. A rolling nade is worth two in ambush.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 995	Posted - 2014.08.15 05:17:00 - [149] - Quote Also, it's noteworthy that the scouts damping bonus was predicated on gal Logi with duvolle focused active scanner. Considering that you need two, or even three of those to not actually find damped scouts, it's a losing proposition, isk wise. Dust/Eve transfers
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 208	Posted - 2014.08.15 05:52:00 - [150] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Yeah. Am I supposed to have learnt something there?, I am confused. Don't role logi unless you are a little weird and don't mind throwing isk away lol Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training

Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3801	Posted - 2014.08.15 10:40:00 - [151] - Quote CCP already plan to remove the Amarr Logi Sidearm slot Removal of the slot means it becomes just like any other logi suit and loses its combat role and ability to stick around the front lines I skilled into the Amarr Logi for the sidearm slot because i happen to use it alot, its useful on all 3 levels of the suit If the slot is removed then once again my choices dont matter or have consequences and it becomes a suit i will rarely use Asking for the cpm to even attempt to reverse this current decision is like asking for xmas in may, i have little hope that my amarr logi will even keep its sidearm slot but if i dont ask...
Broonfondle Majikthies Dogs of War Gaming 1289	Posted - 2014.08.15 10:44:00 - [152] - Quote Personally I think there is no need to change anything. I've been a Min Logi since 1.2 and was my first role. I play as such for 70% of squad games. I can fit great equipment, decent health (with good shields too) and a respectable weapon. And I'm certainly not helpless. With a good team who understands your limitations and appreciates the support we give we don't need to be directly in the line of fire, so weapons and health are not a priority, especially since we have such an impact on a game by equipment - which doesn't have to be used directly. I don't see how we can need any more Equipment on the other hand does need revisiting. And even then I'd say only the injector is in dire need of adjustment. For starters take it off the medic starter fits. Its not a medic if it can't ensure its team is combat effective. Give them rep tools instead. Then tier the WP for better needles. Cus most of the playerbase is selfish and want WP so would rather use a rusty needle and rep tool. After that think about only awarding WP to the user after a successful revive. Its not a revive if you dive out of cover to Rambo into fire and try picking up a teammate for +60 wp (and award +100 to the enemy, but people forget that part -_- ) "The air smells damp and oppressive, like a wet nun" "Why am I talking to a lightbulb? Illuminate me"
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 994	Posted - 2014.08.15 11:08:00 - [153] - Quote Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: Personally I think there is no need to change anything. I've been a Min Logi since 1.2 and was my first role. I play as such for 70% of squad games. I can fit great equipment, decent health (with good shields too) and a respectable weapon. And I'm certainly not helpless. With a good team who understands your limitations and appreciates the support we give we don't need to be directly in the line of fire, so weapons and health are not a priority, especially since we have such an impact on a game by equipment - which doesn't have to be used directly. I don't see how we can need any more Equipment on the other hand does need revisiting. And even then I'd say only the injector is in dire need of adjustment. For starters take it off the medic starter fits. Its not a medic if it can't ensure its team is combat effective. Give them rep tools instead. Then tier the WP for better needles. Cus most of the playerbase is selfish and want WP so would rather use a rusty needle and rep tool. After that think about only awarding WP to the user after a successful revive. Its not a revive if you dive out of cover to Rambo into fire and try picking up a teammate for +60 wp (and award +100 to the enemy, but people forget that part -_- ) I'm going to try to say this in the nicest way possible... A single logistics should require a whole team to keep them alive? Requiring even a squad is asking too much. If everyone is guarding the logi,who then would take the objectives? Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2063	Posted - 2014.08.15 11:25:00 - [154] - Quote Meee One wrote: Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: Personally I think there is no need to change anything. I've been a Min Logi since 1.2 and was my first role. I play as such for 70% of squad games. I can fit great equipment, decent health (with good shields too) and a respectable weapon. And I'm certainly not helpless. With a good team who understands your limitations and appreciates the support we give we don't need to be directly in the line of fire, so weapons and health are not a priority, especially since we have such an impact on a game by equipment - which doesn't have to be used directly. I don't see how we can need any more Equipment on the other hand does need revisiting. And even then I'd say only the injector is in dire need of adjustment. For starters take it off the medic starter fits. Its not a medic if it can't ensure its team is combat effective. Give them rep tools instead. Then tier the WP for better needles. Cus most of the playerbase is selfish and want WP so would rather use a rusty needle and rep tool. After that think about only awarding WP to the user after a successful revive. Its not a revive if you dive out of cover to Rambo into fire and try picking up a teammate for +60 wp (and award +100 to the enemy, but people forget that part -_- ) I'm going to try to say this in the nicest way possible... A single logistics should require a whole team to keep them alive? Requiring even a squad is asking too much. If everyone is guarding the logi,who then would take the objectives? Sentinels should be jumping in front of the logis. You are big, fat, ammo hungry and they are trying to murder your enabler. Hop to it.
Vell0cet Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 2138	Posted - 2014.08.15 16:16:00 - [155] - Quote I'd like to see the reintroduction of the shield rep tool. I was thinking maybe it could work like the "chain heal" in WoW. It hits the main target for 100%, the most damaged person in range of the first target by 50% and the next most damaged person in range do the second person by 25% of the original heal. Alternatively it could work as an AoE heal. Both of those may be bad ideas (there could be major flaws I haven't considered) and perhaps just having shield remote repair use the same mechanics as remote armor repair is the way to go. I mentioned those ideas because it would be cool if there were unique behaviors for shield vs. armor repair. WPs would have to be different though (perhaps scaled to the amount healed). These ideas may not even be hotfixable though. Getting more parity between shields and armor is a good thing. I'd like to see the bonuses change for remote reps. I'd like to see Amarr/Gallente get bonuses to armor repair and Minmatar/Caldari get bonuses to shield repair. Perhaps Amarr/Caldari get a bonus to repair amount and Minmatar/Gallente get a repair range bonus to their respective shield/armor rep tools (or flip them around in a different combination). These bonuses would be in addition to the existing bonuses. Of course that leaves the Minmatar short a bonus, so we'd have to come up with an additional one for them. You could go with the old hacking bonus, but that role makes more sense on the scout (IMO). Perhaps the injectors on Minmatar Logi suits could also restore a percent of shields too? Perhaps 10%/level? I'm just brainstorming/spitballing. Logistics would be much more interesting if we had shields and armor repair, and each race had a different approach to it. As someone who occasionally runs Amarr Logi, I'm pretty indifferent to the sidearm question. I can appreciate both perspectives, and there is a logic to making all suits within a given class have more symmetry with less exceptions. I can also see how a suit bonused for uplinks should be more combat oriented. If we went in the direction I proposed of shields/armor reps, the Amarr Logi sidearm (snowflake argument) becomes much less compelling though. Best PvE idea ever!
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 778	Posted - 2014.08.15 16:26:00 - [156] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Oh the previous poster absolutely brings up s brilliant point. Logis do not have the speed to support a push of assaults. This is a massive problem given their low survivability under fire. A logi caught alone is likely helpless against opportunistic killers. They need to be as fast as a assault team of the same race. I would posit that making a logi 10-15% faster than an assault so they can respond faster to needed support actions and can dive for cover when under direct fire. In my experience in coordinated squad vs coordinated squad, whoever loses the logi first gets shredded. I don't know that we should be faster than Assaults, but we should at the very least be able to keep up. Especially with the basic movement speed, we can't run with the rep tool out, so it results in a lot of re-reacquiring a lock on after sprinting to catch up. Do we need more stamina and speed? Better efficacy to rechargers, regulators, and armor reps? Lower delay to shield regen? Built in reps again, at 1, 2, and 3 respectively for basic, advanced and pro? I don't think we need more HP, just a little added survivability. I think Logis are pretty close to perfectly balanced, but now that every other suit has been buffed, we need just a little something to bring it all together. Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 994	Posted - 2014.08.15 17:05:00 - [157] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I'd like to see the reintroduction of the shield rep tool. I was thinking maybe it could work like the "chain heal" in WoW. It hits the main target for 100%, the most damaged person in range of the first target by 50% and the next most damaged person in range of the second person by 25% of the original heal. Alternatively it could work as an AoE heal. Both of those may be bad ideas (there could be major flaws I haven't considered) and perhaps just having shield remote repair use the same mechanics as remote armor repair is the way to go. I mentioned those ideas because it would be cool if there were unique behaviors for shield vs. armor repair. WPs would have to be different though (perhaps scaled to the amount healed). These ideas may not even be hotfixable though. Getting more parity between shields and armor is a good thing. I'd like to see the bonuses change for remote reps. I'd like to see Amarr/Gallente get bonuses to armor repair and Minmatar/Caldari get bonuses to shield repair. Perhaps Amarr/Caldari get a bonus to repair amount and Minmatar/Gallente get a repair range bonus to their respective shield/armor rep tools (or flip them around in a different combination). These bonuses would be in addition to the existing bonuses. Of course that leaves the Minmatar short a bonus, so we'd have to come up with an additional one for them. You could go with the old hacking bonus, but that role makes more sense on the scout (IMO). Perhaps the injectors on Minmatar Logi suits could also restore a percent of shields too? Perhaps 10%/level? I'm just brainstorming/spitballing. Logistics would be much more interesting if we had shields and armor repair, and each race had a different approach to it. As someone who occasionally runs Amarr Logi, I'm pretty indifferent to the sidearm question. I can appreciate both perspectives, and there is a logic to making all suits within a given class have more symmetry with less exceptions. I can also see how a suit bonused for uplinks should be more combat oriented. If we went in the direction I proposed of shields/armor reps, the Amarr Logi sidearm (snowflake argument) becomes much less compelling though. AOE rep tool,awesome idea. Hacking should be a logi speciality,seeing as logis are the MASTER support class,and support is everything BUT combat. Scouts on the other hand should be the best STEALTH hackers,not the fastest. When it comes to support, other classes shouldn't be able to beat logistics,so when CCP bowed down to scouts in charlie regarding codebreakers they spat in logistics faces AGAIN. It's like they're saying "sure you're MASTER support,but we're going to have another class beat you in a support action." Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Jack 3enimble Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 176	Posted - 2014.08.15 18:05:00 - [158] - Quote Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: Personally I think there is no need to change anything. I've been a Min Logi since 1.2 and was my first role. I play as such for 70% of squad games. I can fit great equipment, decent health (with good shields too) and a respectable weapon. And I'm certainly not helpless. With a good team who understands your limitations and appreciates the support we give we don't need to be directly in the line of fire, so weapons and health are not a priority, especially since we have such an impact on a game by equipment - which doesn't have to be used directly. I don't see how we can need any more Equipment on the other hand does need revisiting. And even then I'd say only the injector is in dire need of adjustment. For starters take it off the medic starter fits. Its not a medic if it can't ensure its team is combat effective. Give them rep tools instead. Then tier the WP for better needles. Cus most of the playerbase is selfish and want WP so would rather use a rusty needle and rep tool. After that think about only awarding WP to the user after a successful revive. Its not a revive if you dive out of cover to Rambo into fire and try picking up a teammate for +60 wp (and award +100 to the enemy, but people forget that part -_- ) You do know that with your speed and reptool bonus you're with the amarr the only viable logi right now? My Cal logi can't keep up with heavies that have kincats and I can't fit kincat because my suit was robbed of CPU so I have to fit a CPU mod. Not to mention the fitting costs for shield modules to survive are rediculously high and on top of that my shield extenders get a shield delay penalty per extender. Brick tanking makes it even slower. The Cal logi is garbage to say the least. Did I mention my pro costs like 200K per suit?
Duke Noobiam S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance 135	Posted - 2014.08.15 18:57:00 - [159] - Quote Minmatar prototype and I play the MEDIC role. I like where this logi is right now, I don't think it needs a buff or a nerf. I would appreciate not changing the bonuses as I specialized in Minmatar to be a medic. How do you kill that which has no life?
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 211	Posted - 2014.08.16 06:29:00 - [160] - Quote Duke Noobiam wrote: Minmatar prototype and I play the MEDIC role. I like where this logi is right now, I don't think it needs a buff or a nerf. I would appreciate not changing the bonuses as I specialized in Minmatar to be a medic. Although I manage, it is hard to stay ISK positive and I would like a slight buff on the ISK payout for logis. Seems like I don't see many Galente or Caldari logis, maybe they need a little buff. I'm sorry but you won't get an increased payout because you are a logi. There would be 32 logi's each match circle jerk repping each other for a better payout. Better to reduce equipment costs. Also as has been discussed slightly increasing logi survivability (not HP buff, there are other ways) will help reduce your overall isk costs. The trouble is I specialised in Minnie for the awesome rep bonus. Then I specialised into Amarr for the better links. Then I specialised . . . . Nah didn't bother with Caldari and I didn't need a scanner as we had scouts!!!! There are 2 logi's that are used. 1 I've seen used occasionally, Gallente (scans) and then there is the Caldari ( re supply ) which I have at adv, which I barely see any of. That rep bonus could be utilised by ALL logi's ( shield rep tools ftw ) then they could have equipment bonus. That way at least each logi could benefit from the one thing most people will agree a logi should be doing, repping. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training

Andris Kronis Legio DXIV 69	Posted - 2014.08.16 07:06:00 - [161] - Quote Meee One wrote: Logistics suits: 30 more eHP than a scout Slower than heavier tanked mediums Bigger hitbox despite having less eHP Doesn't have the best regen despite having less eHP Doesn't have the best eHP despite its speed. When run as a support unit it costs easily 2x as much with 1/2 the survival Since logistics has more in common with scouts (ewar,equipment) logistics should be made to mimic them. -Keep the low eHP but in exchange give speed/stamina,regen amount and speed,and a smaller hitbox. This way it establishes a theme,support is fast and evasive,while killing is strong and durable. -Cut equipment costs by 50% minimal Based on personal experience,i would prefer to be harder to hit with better regen than have higher eHP. eHP just makes it too tempting to fight instead of support. Ok, I didn't want to delete anything Meee One said because it was all damn good. But, the bit above is what I want to talk about. If Logi are going to have about the same hits as a Scout then give them the properties of a scout but designed for logistics and ewar. If they are the logi frigates of the DUST world then perhaps they should have that reflected in their signature radius (hit box and scan profile) and their scan resolution (Scan precision and range). If they are supposed to be the logi cruisers of DUST then they should be tanked appropriately. Pick a direction that makes sense and run with it. I'm now thinking since Meee One's post that the frigate example is better to use - you changed my mind Meee One. Make the logi faster and better at ewar, there is nothing more frustrating as a logi when trying to fill 4 or 5 different support roles for a squad to have a shotgun scout come up behind the squad and one shot the logi before moving on to the rest of the squad, no way to scan the scout. If they are going to be left as weaklings as there seems to be some holdout animosity against logi-slayers then at least give the logi some options in the way of hit box, ability to scan for the squad, speed, all the things Meee One said. "Corporation slogan coming to a sig near you"
Liftrasir Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2014.08.16 07:40:00 - [162] - Quote I am having a logistical problem with my assets window, I can not seem to find the trash button... Please fix. Breach Nanite Injector
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2140	Posted - 2014.08.16 08:04:00 - [163] - Quote Support is not everything but combat. Sentinels are support but they are a combat role. They arent meant to play solo pubstar and for every ten solo nerds you have one who properly supports squads, acts as an anvil for the assault hammer and generally does the suit class right. Now. Soapbox is over. Logistics cost is ridiculous. A protofit logi costs 120,000 ISK more than my CQC killer and AV fits. Regardless of the fact that logi is a rock solid force multiplier, the risks involved in having to pay a million isk for four suits versus my 7-8 door kicker party suits seems rather out of whack. I believe that logis should be paying similar cost to a sentinel brickmonster, not more. Their survivability does not justify the cost.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3850	Posted - 2014.08.16 19:18:00 - [164] - Quote Huh. Looks like IGÇÖm late to the party! So, to introduce myself, I have been a logi since open beta, Amarr pretty much exclusively since it was GÇ£un-brokenGÇ¥ in 1.2 or whatever. The link in my sig explains my playstyle. Once I am satisfied we have the bases covered with uplinks GÇô which nowadays is always at the beginning of a match but I find maintaining tactical control of the map usually falls to me around halfway through and itGÇÖs like before when ridiculous link spam was confined to PC; my guess itGÇÖs in large part due to my links not being dropped indiscriminately in easy to find areas. Anyway, after that I generally play a pretty typical support role, either rep tool and hives or rep tool and needle, depending on whatGÇÖs going on. Or after enough to drink, I start charging around trying to kill people with my less than l33t gungame. Fun but does hurt the wallet (thank God for BPOGÇÖs). But, I digress. So, my 0.02, Cross, is as follows (IGÇÖm gonna break it up into 2 posts to keep things digestible): IGÇÖll start with equipment. (Stuff about fitting costs and power IGÇÖll get to in my second post.) 1) First, the hot issue, bonuses. I am of the opinion that every logi suit should be better at using every type of equipment than any other suit. The poorly conceived single-bonus structure we have now killed the logi suit more than anything else, imo. Why use a logi suit when you can take a Gallente scout, which is faster, undetectable by the vast majority of suits, has about the same eHP potential along with ridiculous fitting power, plus a sidearm and 2 equipment slots? ThereGÇÖs no reason to unless you are very much invested in a single piece of equipment. That Gallente scout can do literally everything better than my Amarr logi except for uplinksGÇª which anywhere except PC, most people are not going to gaf about the spawn times, tbh. The rep tool, injector, nanohives, scanners, all work exactly the same on a suit not designed for support. IDK about you, but if I was the Imperial Guard, IGÇÖd fire the guy who designed my logi suits for incompetence and/or arrest him for treason! I donGÇÖt think any of the other career logiGÇÖs, or even many people from other classes would argue too much about that point, itGÇÖs really just too logical to form a reasonable argument against. The real question is how to do it. Pokey made a nice thread about secondary bonuses, and I do see the point he and Kirk made about not over-homogenizing the different races, but I think itGÇÖs a flawed idea for two reasons: For starters, what I just talked about regarding scouts. More importantly, there would be a [i]huge fight (already starting a little) about who gets what bonus. LetGÇÖs just be totally honest, everyone wants the rep tool bonus. So, instead of having some massive 17 page flame war about why the Gallente should get it over the Amarr, or how they should both get it and take it away from the Minmatar, just give the damn bonus to everyone! This link has my proposal. Basically, every logi suit gets a small bonus to every type of equipment, while keeping its current primary bonus. That way we have an incentive to use a logi suit instead of a scout suit. My rep tool may not work as well as it would on a minmatar logi, but at least itGÇÖs measurably better than on some FOTM chaser in a scout suit. 2) Spam: IMO, pretty much everybody thinks itGÇÖs great when they do it and is lame when someone else does it. I do think itGÇÖs an issue, but the crazy proposals flying around with only 1 link/hive per person being allowed, they pop when you die or switch suits, etc, are really just lazy nerfs to logis, particularly the Amarr and Caldari. Unless of course you want to make those limits apply only to every suit except those two. In which case I can live with that. Now, just like RKKRGÇÖs idea about cooldown times (which I like but I need to know more about the nuts and bolts) a lot of other good solutions are probably not feasible with the minimal effort CCP is willing to expend on this game. IGÇÖve posted the idea of making it a skill several times, Here's a rough example. In this fashion you keep the support specialists viable while discouraging the spammers who just spawn in with an uplink suit, drop 6 uplinks indiscriminately, and then switch into their sentinel suit to get to business. If you want to drop a lot of equipment as your primary role, you still can, but itGÇÖs gonna cost you a couple million SP to do it. 3) Finally, ItGÇÖs definitely too expensive. Yes, logiGÇÖs have a large WP earning potential, but itGÇÖs not cheap. Even many of my ADV fits (which I run 95% of the time) cost in the 75k range and are not that durable. I donGÇÖt know the answer to the issue though, because just making it cheaper would only encourage spam. Perhaps if the bonuses were buffed you could get away with lower tier equipment and still have it be effective. (on to part two. Get up and stretch your legs if you like) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3850	Posted - 2014.08.16 19:20:00 - [165] - Quote The Logi suits themselves Plenty of ideas, some good, and someGÇª. LetGÇÖs call them not quite as good (howGÇÖs that, Cross?) have been put out there. In general I feel like the slot counts need to be adjusted akin to the assaults and the Amarr should keep its sidearm. This isnGÇÖt supposed to be a cookie cutter game, we donGÇÖt need less diversity than we already have! Sprint glitch, the problems with the Amarr bonus not applying, and for the love of god the rep tool glow need to be fixed, among other things. 1) Equipment, fitting power, and the irrational fear of the dreaded GÇ£slayer logiGÇ¥: ItGÇÖs been like 8+ months since this was remotely an issue. Seriously, chill out. The simple solution is that instead of buffing the fitting power of the suits in the same fashion that scouts were, just double the fitting bonus to equipment instead. That way the suits can be built very easily for support but not so much for combat. Here's a hastily thrown together example of the concept. An exception would be the Amarr and possibly the caldari logi suits. The Amarr logiGÇÖs PG is so pathetic I have been forced to use dirty minmatar weaponry because the ScR uses up like -+ of the total PG of the damn suit (that may be a slight exaggeration). IGÇÖm not as familiar with the Caldari suit but if itGÇÖs going to lose a low slot then it may need a slight CPU buff. 2) Speed and survivability: I think there are two options, or two paths to take might be a better term: Either we can make LogiGÇÖs tankier/heavier, or we can make them faster/GÇÖscoutierGÇÖ. I donGÇÖt think we should try to do both, personally, thatGÇÖs where you run into trouble with logiGÇÖs filling too many roles too well like before. Alternately you could split up the races and make 2 heavier and 2 lighter (Amarr/Gal or Cal and Min/Gal or Cal being likely pairings) - Tank is easy. Buff the HP, bring back the old inherent rep but tweak it a little, maybe resistances, thereGÇÖs a lot of ways to do it. I favor this idea less as the primary way to do things, but a small buff is in order either way because the eHP of logi suits is poor considering the other tradeoffs they make in terms of speed/hitbox/etc compared to other suits. - Faster/GÇÖscoutierGÇÖ is a little more complicated but I like the idea better overall. Correct me if I am wrong, but the logi suits used to have a lower scan profile than the Assault suits, and it was taken away for no reason. I think the logi suits should not be as easy to see as Assaults or Heavies, and should certainly not be slower! Give them a little ewar with lower profiles and longer ranges or higher precision than the other non-scouts, buff the speed so they can keep up with the squad and you make a demonstrable improvement in survivability and utility as a support suit without a major buff to HP or rep tanking. 3) Rep tool glow: ItGÇÖs insane that this has not been put back. I swear I saw a dev once comment GÇ£wait, itGÇÖs not there anymore?GÇ¥ The red hit indicator when taking damage was initially almost as intrusive as the rep indicator, why canGÇÖt the rep indicator be toned down in a similar manner? Though, personally I think that a pulse or glow around the HUD or of the HP gauge is a better option, but again, IGÇÖm guessing thatGÇÖs not hot-fixable. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 995	Posted - 2014.08.16 22:30:00 - [166] - Quote While you're looking at the logistics suits.... Fix the Min logis stats. It has more armor than shields and it's supposed to be a shield based race. It has 90 shields and 150 armor. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2171	Posted - 2014.08.16 22:39:00 - [167] - Quote Meee One wrote: While you're looking at the logistics suits.... Fix the Min logis stats. It has more armor than shields and it's supposed to be a shield based race. It has 90 shields and 150 armor. Minnies are an either/or race for shield/armor. Sometimes they skip all that crap and rock out to heavy metal, juice the engines up to "GODDAMN THING WILL EXPLODE IF A FLY FARTS!" and put the biggest goddamned guns they can find on their gear and try to outdo themselves levelling cities with personal artillery cannons.
Symbioticforks Pure Evil. 613	Posted - 2014.08.18 03:16:00 - [168] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross Sniper / Support Can't support my team in my PC when the only viable sniper rifle is a Thale's. Headshots are ultra rare in this format of the game, between the inherent amounts of lag that come from PC and a full 16 players wearing prototype. Purchasable sniper rifles just don't cut it. Sniping Dust 514 (video series)
Symbioticforks Pure Evil. 616	Posted - 2014.08.18 08:31:00 - [169] - Quote In the initial build, you wanted a sniper as support. Smaller squads with shared vision, a sniper was useful. then one day what's this? NERFBAT! THWACK! intentional nerf to snipers? (probably not) but it most certainly was real. Sniping Dust 514 (video series)
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 26	Posted - 2014.08.18 13:53:00 - [170] - Quote Proto Min Logi with level 5 in all support areas, links, hives, and repair. I want to start with Johns proposal I believe it is the most balanced Idea that has been proposed yet. it is well thought out and requires little change for CCP. John Demonsbane wrote: More importantly, there would be a huge fight (already starting a little) about who gets what bonus. LetGÇÖs just be totally honest, everyone wants the rep tool bonus. So, instead of having some massive 17 page flame war about why the Gallente should get it over the Amarr, or how they should both get it and take it away from the Minmatar, just give the damn bonus to everyone! This link has my proposal. Basically, every logi suit gets a small bonus to every type of equipment, while keeping its current primary bonus. That way we have an incentive to use a logi suit instead of a scout suit. My rep tool may not work as well as it would on a minmatar logi, but at least itGÇÖs measurably better than on some FOTM chaser in a scout suit. If people think this homogenizes the logi suits too much, I'm certainly not against buffing the primary bonus a little more to make up for it. ) John, I am behind your proposal, it is well thought out and makes all logi's better with all equipment. But still makes you choose where you want to be specialized. I am not an Amar Logi but I still believe that they should not loose their side arm. They are the combat Logi, they loose slots and have to stay alive to maintain their Links. Their choice of role specialization, and gives good diversity to the game. The equipment bonus to pg/cpu is not enough it needs to be increased, I would say doubled but that is probably excessive. Isk Cost of equipment is very prohibitive. Isk Comparison using all advance level items except 1 proto item. I put one proto item because we use the best for where we need the most. Advance M/1 logi Suit with six kin rep tool =69,285 Advance M/1 Logi Suit with BDR8 rep tool =58365 (trying to cut cost with adv repair tool) Advance M/1 Assaut Suit complex dmg mod =30,945 Advance A/1 Heavy Suit complex dmg mod =37,770 This is a problem!!! Repair Tools I have read some of the proposals for rep tool healing the logi's as a way to make up for less ehp. I agree but it needs to be regulated to only when the repair tool is out and actively being used on other team mates. Not when your solo or the target is at full health. It also does not need to be the full amount of the repair tool maybe 50%. Amount of armor repaired needs to be put back to original amounts before the nerf. That way every logi can out heal a frontline suit with militia weapon and damage mod. One last thought about all classes of suits. A militia or basic suit should not be able to use a proto level anything. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.

Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 161	Posted - 2014.08.18 15:03:00 - [171] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Advance M/1 logi Suit with six kin rep tool =69,285 Advance M/1 Logi Suit with BDR8 rep tool =58365 (trying to cut cost with adv repair tool) Advance M/1 Assaut Suit complex dmg mod =30,945 Advance A/1 Heavy Suit complex dmg mod =37,770 This is a problem!!! Repair Tools I have read some of the proposals for rep tool healing the logi's as a way to make up for less ehp. I agree but it needs to be regulated to only when the repair tool is out and actively being used on other team mates. Not when your solo or the target is at full health. It also does not need to be the full amount of the repair tool maybe 50%. Amount of armor repaired needs to be put back to original amounts before the nerf. That way every logi can out heal a frontline suit with militia weapon and damage mod. One last thought about all classes of suits. A militia or basic suit should not be able to use a proto level anything. You dumbass, you cut costs on the weapon, NOT on the repair tool. And second the repair tool shouldn't repair the repper as it will encourage ONLY armor tanking, active repping though should at least give a somewhat blanket resistance to damage for armor and shields, otherwise cal logis get boned and will discourage diverse fits. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 26	Posted - 2014.08.18 15:46:00 - [172] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Advance M/1 logi Suit with six kin rep tool =69,285 Advance M/1 Logi Suit with BDR8 rep tool =58365 (trying to cut cost with adv repair tool) Advance M/1 Assaut Suit complex dmg mod =30,945 Advance A/1 Heavy Suit complex dmg mod =37,770 This is a problem!!! Repair Tools I have read some of the proposals for rep tool healing the logi's as a way to make up for less ehp. I agree but it needs to be regulated to only when the repair tool is out and actively being used on other team mates. Not when your solo or the target is at full health. It also does not need to be the full amount of the repair tool maybe 50%. Amount of armor repaired needs to be put back to original amounts before the nerf. That way every logi can out heal a frontline suit with militia weapon and damage mod. One last thought about all classes of suits. A militia or basic suit should not be able to use a proto level anything. You dumbass, you cut costs on the weapon, NOT on the repair tool. And second the repair tool shouldn't repair the repper as it will encourage ONLY armor tanking, active repping though should at least give a somewhat blanket resistance to damage for armor and shields, otherwise cal logis get boned and will discourage diverse fits. Name calling is NOT required. I know that you use a lower tier weapon to cut cost, I use my exile on most of my fits. When I want to save isk. I was showing all Advance tier items for comparison to the all advance tier Assault and Heavy Suits with 1 complex damage mod. I will agree that a Cal logi will be at a large disadvantage. I agree that rep tools would encourage armor tanking, so I am willing to go with a blanket resistance to damage. I used the armor repair because the main function of the repair tool is to repair armor and all suits have armor even cal logi's not much but some. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 161	Posted - 2014.08.18 16:13:00 - [173] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Advance M/1 logi Suit with six kin rep tool =69,285 Advance M/1 Logi Suit with BDR8 rep tool =58365 (trying to cut cost with adv repair tool) Advance M/1 Assaut Suit complex dmg mod =30,945 Advance A/1 Heavy Suit complex dmg mod =37,770 This is a problem!!! Repair Tools I have read some of the proposals for rep tool healing the logi's as a way to make up for less ehp. I agree but it needs to be regulated to only when the repair tool is out and actively being used on other team mates. Not when your solo or the target is at full health. It also does not need to be the full amount of the repair tool maybe 50%. Amount of armor repaired needs to be put back to original amounts before the nerf. That way every logi can out heal a frontline suit with militia weapon and damage mod. One last thought about all classes of suits. A militia or basic suit should not be able to use a proto level anything. You dumbass, you cut costs on the weapon, NOT on the repair tool. And second the repair tool shouldn't repair the repper as it will encourage ONLY armor tanking, active repping though should at least give a somewhat blanket resistance to damage for armor and shields, otherwise cal logis get boned and will discourage diverse fits. Name calling is NOT required. I know that you use a lower tier weapon to cut cost, I use my exile on most of my fits. When I want to save isk. I was showing all Advance tier items for comparison to the all advance tier Assault and Heavy Suits with 1 complex damage mod. I will agree that a Cal logi will be at a large disadvantage. I agree that rep tools would encourage armor tanking, so I am willing to go with a blanket resistance to damage. I used the armor repair because the main function of the repair tool is to repair armor and all suits have armor even cal logi's not much but some. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
pagl1u M Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 949	Posted - 2014.08.18 16:42:00 - [174] - Quote Ok, none said it yet, I m surprised. It looks like I have to say it, dont blame me for proposing it. Only sidearm logis! "Oh no what an idiot""gtfo""blablabla die blabla" But think about it... The main problem is logi's ability to survive. That is why you want to buff logis hp or their regen/speed. But you are afraid of slayer logis, you are afraid the forum will cry for a nerf. So we have to give logis a good survivability but to we have decrease their firepower. Giving logis only sidearms will let you buff them (Ehp or regen stats) and avoid the problem of slayer logis at the same time. Is it that stupid? It is not that logis will be completely useless in combat. Having more survivability would let them do their job (support) and still be effective in gunfights (with more defence and less offence) and dont forget that sidearms can be deadly as other weapons! Minmatar loyalist!
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1560	Posted - 2014.08.18 16:49:00 - [175] - Quote pagl1u M wrote: Ok, none said it yet, I m surprised. It looks like I have to say it, dont blame me for proposing it. Only sidearm logis! "Oh no what an idiot""gtfo""blablabla die blabla" But think about it... The main problem is logi's ability to survive. That is why you want to buff logis hp or their regen/speed. But you are afraid of slayer logis, you are afraid the forum will cry for a nerf. So we have to give logis a good survivability but to we have decrease their firepower. Giving logis only sidearms will let you buff them (Ehp or regen stats) and avoid the problem of slayer logis at the same time. Is it that stupid? It is not that logis will be completely useless in combat. Having more survivability would let them do their job (support) and still be effective in gunfights (with more defence and less offence) and dont forget that sidearms can be deadly as other weapons! No. I prefer Meeee's idea of fast, scout like logos. Sidearm only was considered and summarily dismissed long ago by CCP. Rest in peace, oh Captain, my Captain.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 26	Posted - 2014.08.18 17:00:00 - [176] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Bare in mind I am a Min logi and for my lows I run 2 complex reppers, and whatever plates will fit after I fill my highs ( 2 comp presicion, 2 comp shield ext) and equipment slots (all proto, injector, ish hive, flux links, and either the republic boundless or six kin repair tool) so the feedback repair from the repair tool would benefit me greatly (for a two target repair tool would you get double feedback?) because I could drop a repper and add a plate, but I don't want any changes made to this game that would make any particular build the "only" build. That is the reason for the resistance instead of the reps. P.S. Sorry about the dumbass comment, I meant it more playfully as opposed to insulting... ya dumbass I think only one feedback or it would really be OP. I use Lows 1 comp repper, 1 enhance armor, 2 comp armor High 1comp precision, 1adv energizer, 2 advance Shield extenders. equipment slots proto wyrikomi hives, ish hives,state needle and core focus or six kin. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2865	Posted - 2014.08.18 17:04:00 - [177] - Quote pagl1u M wrote: Ok, none said it yet, I m surprised. It looks like I have to say it, dont blame me for proposing it. Only sidearm logis! "Oh no what an idiot""gtfo""blablabla die blabla" But think about it... The main problem is logi's ability to survive. That is why you want to buff logis hp or their regen/speed. But you are afraid of slayer logis, you are afraid the forum will cry for a nerf. So we have to give logis a good survivability but to we have decrease their firepower. Giving logis only sidearms will let you buff them (Ehp or regen stats) and avoid the problem of slayer logis at the same time. Is it that stupid? It is not that logis will be completely useless in combat. Having more survivability would let them do their job (support) and still be effective in gunfights (with more defence and less offence) and dont forget that sidearms can be deadly as other weapons! Currently, with very rare exception, a Logi in every way to an Assault, aside from the equipment. Even with a buff to base Logi attributes, the Assault will remain capable of better defenses, better offsense, and better mobility. I've said this a million times already, but every role in the game is a combat role. They differ in focus, but they are all still capable of putting up a solid fight, and the Logi is no exception. Part of the Logistics role is indirect combat support, may that be proving suppressive fire while their heavy reloads or offering additional DPS to finish off a tough opponent. If you strip the Logi of their primary, you strip them of an important part of the role and water down the whole role.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 26	Posted - 2014.08.18 17:46:00 - [178] - Quote +1 Pokey Very good analyses of the current situation and side arm logis are not the answer. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 161	Posted - 2014.08.18 17:59:00 - [179] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: +1 Pokey Very good analyses of the current situation and side arm logis are not the answer. Not unless ya make Mass Drivers sidearms. But I'd guess pagl1u M is a scout and doesn't like logis being able to fight back with the only weapon truly effective against them. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2866	Posted - 2014.08.18 18:04:00 - [180] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Mister Goo wrote: +1 Pokey Very good analyses of the current situation and side arm logis are not the answer. Not unless ya make Mass Drivers sidearms. But I'd guess pagl1u M is a scout and doesn't like logis being able to fight back with the only weapon truly effective against them. We have a Mass Driver Sidearm, it's called the flaylock

Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 163	Posted - 2014.08.18 18:19:00 - [181] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Mister Goo wrote: +1 Pokey Very good analyses of the current situation and side arm logis are not the answer. Not unless ya make Mass Drivers sidearms. But I'd guess pagl1u M is a scout and doesn't like logis being able to fight back with the only weapon truly effective against them. We have a Mass Driver Sidearm, it's called the flaylock I said something EFFECTIVE against scouts. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
pagl1u M Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 949	Posted - 2014.08.18 18:32:00 - [182] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Mister Goo wrote: +1 Pokey Very good analyses of the current situation and side arm logis are not the answer. Not unless ya make Mass Drivers sidearms. But I'd guess pagl1u M is a scout and doesn't like logis being able to fight back with the only weapon truly effective against them. No need to insult me... I just proposed a possible way to Fix things. I also want to say that I have always been against sidearm only logis, I just wanted to add that possible solution, I still think it could be a good solution if it is mixed with a GREAT buff to logis survivability. Minmatar loyalist!
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2866	Posted - 2014.08.18 18:39:00 - [183] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Mister Goo wrote: +1 Pokey Very good analyses of the current situation and side arm logis are not the answer. Not unless ya make Mass Drivers sidearms. But I'd guess pagl1u M is a scout and doesn't like logis being able to fight back with the only weapon truly effective against them. We have a Mass Driver Sidearm, it's called the flaylock I said something EFFECTIVE against scouts. Haha I know I was just giving you ****.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3861	Posted - 2014.08.18 19:16:00 - [184] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: +1 Pokey Very good analyses of the current situation and side arm logis are not the answer. Definitely not. This idea has more lives than Cat Merc, unfortunately. Some people do just fine with sidearm-only fits (like TechMechMeds) but the key difference is that nobody knows if that's what you are packing. The possibility that you could have any weapon exists. If the suit was restricted to only a sidearm, however, suddenly everyone knows that's the only thing you can have, putting you at a huge tactical disadvantage. (He also does it with a maxed out Ishukone assault SMG, which is pretty much a mini HMG, realistically. I'd like to see someone pull it off with an unskilled STD SMG like newer logi's would have to.) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 164	Posted - 2014.08.18 20:06:00 - [185] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Mister Goo wrote: +1 Pokey Very good analyses of the current situation and side arm logis are not the answer. Not unless ya make Mass Drivers sidearms. But I'd guess pagl1u M is a scout and doesn't like logis being able to fight back with the only weapon truly effective against them. We have a Mass Driver Sidearm, it's called the flaylock I said something EFFECTIVE against scouts. Haha I know I was just giving you ****. Blast, my failure to detect sarcasm has foiled me again. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2869	Posted - 2014.08.18 21:04:00 - [186] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Blast, my failure to detect sarcasm has foiled me again. No worries mate, online text forums are not exactly good at expressing inflections in voice. Because English is a terrible language
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 164	Posted - 2014.08.18 21:32:00 - [187] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Blast, my failure to detect sarcasm has foiled me again. No worries mate, online text forums are not exactly good at expressing inflections in voice. Because English is a terrible language Yep, because I before E except after C because yeah, english is a science. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2748	Posted - 2014.08.19 03:45:00 - [188] - Quote Still seeking input on this topic, and planing to roll up my sleeves for the reading catch up here after my weekend out of town. Keep it coming folks. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1000	Posted - 2014.08.19 04:31:00 - [189] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Still seeking input on this topic, and planing to roll up my sleeves for the reading catch up here after my weekend out of town. What are your takeaways so far? Dust/Eve transfers
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 779	Posted - 2014.08.19 04:32:00 - [190] - Quote Meee One wrote: While you're looking at the logistics suits.... Fix the Min logis stats. It has more armor than shields and it's supposed to be a shield based race. It has 90 shields and 150 armor. Used to be 120 Shield and 150 Armor. This was back in Chrome. It was a stealth nerf in Uprising 1.0 and was never explained why. Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2749	Posted - 2014.08.19 05:32:00 - [191] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Still seeking input on this topic, and planing to roll up my sleeves for the reading catch up here after my weekend out of town. What are your takeaways so far? I am currently working with my SMB to compile notes on that for discussion with the rest of the CPM and then move toward formulation for something to push to CCP. Once we have some actual action times for upcoming hotfix deployment I'll be posting here what that update (or more likely a link to it). Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 215	Posted - 2014.08.19 06:29:00 - [192] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Still seeking input on this topic, and planing to roll up my sleeves for the reading catch up here after my weekend out of town. What are your takeaways so far? I am currently working with my SMB to compile notes on that for discussion with the rest of the CPM and then move toward formulation for something to push to CCP. Once we have some actual action times for upcoming hotfix deployment I'll be posting here what that update (or more likely a link to it). Cheers, Cross It's good to see threads like this come up, so yeah thnx for taking the time to try and make a difference. Are CCP being receptive towards things like this? Also It would be good if we could get a Dev response on how they see logi's on the battlefield. Good stuff anyway. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2750	Posted - 2014.08.19 09:21:00 - [193] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Cross Atu wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Still seeking input on this topic, and planing to roll up my sleeves for the reading catch up here after my weekend out of town. What are your takeaways so far? I am currently working with my SMB to compile notes on that for discussion with the rest of the CPM and then move toward formulation for something to push to CCP. Once we have some actual action times for upcoming hotfix deployment I'll be posting here what that update (or more likely a link to it). Cheers, Cross It's good to see threads like this come up, so yeah thnx for taking the time to try and make a difference. Are CCP being receptive towards things like this? Also It would be good if we could get a Dev response on how they see logi's on the battlefield. Good stuff anyway. CCP (specifically R and Logibro) have been very engaged with the CPM so far and honestly I'm happy to report the biggest constrained we've faced in getting ideas iterated has been more resource/tech than a willingness on their part to be receptive or interactive. I agree a conceptual roadmap, for logis, support in general, or even roles more broadly, would be useful, even if we don't end up with a full description I am hopeful we can at minimum get some form of hotfix level outline before too long (all times are obviously subjective because of the many factors in play but it is high on my list of things I'd like to see moved forward). I'm glad to see the level of participation in this thread and would like to extend my thanks to everyone in the community who has taken the time to constructively articulate concepts related to this theme. Moving forward I will be focusing more heavily on compiling the ideas already present into a comprehensive/actionable "TL;DR" for CCP and the rest of the CPM. Even that being the case, please do not feel as if discussion in this thread must, or even should, cease as I will still have an eye on new developments here (the other will simply be focused on that write up ). Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2231	Posted - 2014.08.19 09:38:00 - [194] - Quote Said my piece. Have fun
Symbioticforks Pure Evil. 656	Posted - 2014.08.19 11:30:00 - [195] - Quote No more HP for anyone.. EVER POWER CREEP! Sniping Dust 514 (video series)
XxVEXESxX 23	Posted - 2014.08.20 00:49:00 - [196] - Quote Dear CPM, I look forward to the success of dust and its improvements. I hope this may help the CPM in the light of Hotfix Delta. I play Minmatar Logi and play a purely support focus . That being said here is my logistic analysis of Hotfix Delta and a proposed possible improvement to the role: Time delays close to scout shield depleted and non depleted delays could emulate improvement. This will help both shield and armor. Having any amount of shields protecting armor at any time with it damaged will allow armor to continue to repair and shields HP returning sooner will emulate higher EHP. They will still retain their current EHP, lowest DPS Potential, ineffective placement on the EWAR table and third slowest suit. Time to Kill will stay the same but the second to second effectiveness will increase allowing the logi to sustain trough front line support conditions. This will be rewarding to those using cover by helping them to repair through high splash and wide effect weapons. Logis will still have to sacrificing EHP for damage and while attempting to be a slayer will assume the role of the "Charlie Assault".( known to be the least combat effective suit in Charlie. ) Not sure if this was mentioned but hopefully this can be discussed and a possible solution for the logi class. Regards, XxVEXESxX PSN: XxVEXESxX Minmatar loyalist Dropsuit Upgrades level 5
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3877	Posted - 2014.08.20 01:32:00 - [197] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Cross Atu wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Still seeking input on this topic, and planing to roll up my sleeves for the reading catch up here after my weekend out of town. What are your takeaways so far? I am currently working with my SMB to compile notes on that for discussion with the rest of the CPM and then move toward formulation for something to push to CCP. Once we have some actual action times for upcoming hotfix deployment I'll be posting here what that update (or more likely a link to it). Cheers, Cross It's good to see threads like this come up, so yeah thnx for taking the time to try and make a difference. Are CCP being receptive towards things like this? Also It would be good if we could get a Dev response on how they see logi's on the battlefield. Good stuff anyway. CCP (specifically R and Logibro) have been very engaged with the CPM so far and honestly I'm happy to report the biggest constrained we've faced in getting ideas iterated has been more resource/tech than a willingness on their part to be receptive or interactive. I agree a conceptual roadmap, for logis, support in general, or even roles more broadly, would be useful, even if we don't end up with a full description I am hopeful we can at minimum get some form of hotfix level outline before too long (all times are obviously subjective because of the many factors in play but it is high on my list of things I'd like to see moved forward). I'm glad to see the level of participation in this thread and would like to extend my thanks to everyone in the community who has taken the time to constructively articulate concepts related to this theme. Moving forward I will be focusing more heavily on compiling the ideas already present into a comprehensive/actionable "TL;DR" for CCP and the rest of the CPM. Even that being the case, please do not feel as if discussion in this thread must, or even should, cease as I will still have an eye on new developments here (the other will simply be focused on that write up ). Cheers, Cross That's a very unsatisfying answer, cross! Give us something... What here do you like? (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1000	Posted - 2014.08.20 02:56:00 - [198] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Cross Atu wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Still seeking input on this topic, and planing to roll up my sleeves for the reading catch up here after my weekend out of town. What are your takeaways so far? I am currently working with my SMB to compile notes on that for discussion with the rest of the CPM and then move toward formulation for something to push to CCP. Once we have some actual action times for upcoming hotfix deployment I'll be posting here what that update (or more likely a link to it). Cheers, Cross It's good to see threads like this come up, so yeah thnx for taking the time to try and make a difference. Are CCP being receptive towards things like this? Also It would be good if we could get a Dev response on how they see logi's on the battlefield. Good stuff anyway. Read any posts Rattatai has commented on... They all sum up to a TL;DR of "Logis should be slow and easily killed,while being unable to defend themselves and costs staying the same,because screw logis i run assault" Seriously,that's the exact meaning behind ANYTHING he posts about logistics. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2241	Posted - 2014.08.20 11:50:00 - [199] - Quote Gee because accusing the devs of hating X class has gotten SO much positive response in the past.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2767	Posted - 2014.08.20 23:50:00 - [200] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: That's a very unsatisfying answer, cross! Give us something... What here do you like? Reading the entire thread, compiling answers and doing so along with my other CPM and IRL duties is a somewhat time intensive task, I realize that my prior answer can somewhat amount to "I'm workin' on stuff" but in all honest that is exactly what is going on. I do understand that a lack of definitive information can be unsatisfying, and I totally sympathize with that but the simple truth of the matter is that since every idea or change has an effect on the others and there are often tech considerations that must be accounted for - but which I do not know the details of until conversations can happen with CCP - any answer I give at this point would effectively amount to "that's kind of nifty I wonder if that'll work" which when coupled to the aforementioned questions of what is or is not actionable at this stage wouldn't be worth much more than "I'm workin' on stuff". I will try to get something more meaningful out to you guys soon as I am able, I know waiting on this stuff can get frustrating in short order - as I've done quite a bit of it myself - but realistically it is likely to take awhile yet before I have something to present (just to be clear "awhile" should, if nothing goes awry, be tallied more in days than weeks). Diving back in to the project now Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

I-Shayz-I I----------I 4622	Posted - 2014.08.21 00:01:00 - [201] - Quote Btw I'd like to see some more posts in this thread about the support experience rather than just how to change the logistics suit to be better. I feel like I'm one of very few people who actually would like to better the experience of the support player rather than arguing about suit stats. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1010	Posted - 2014.08.21 00:32:00 - [202] - Quote [quote=I-Shayz-I]I'd like to see some more posts in this thread about the support experience rather than just how to change the logistics suit to be better./quote] I play a Medic in Team Fortress, and the dynamics of support in Dust are very different. The fact that I often can't keep up with heavies, let alone assaults, while repairing them, the activation-not-always-working bug when doing weapon swaps just makes for a frustrating experience. Sometimes I think it would be easier to just load up on healy hives and just say "stand on this, deal with it". At least then I'd be able to put together a nest to turtle up in. Dust/Eve transfers
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1010	Posted - 2014.08.21 00:33:00 - [203] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I will try to get something more meaningful out to you guys soon as I am able, I know waiting on this stuff can get frustrating in short order - as I've done quite a bit of it myself - but realistically it is likely to take awhile yet before I have something to present (just to be clear "awhile" should, if nothing goes awry, be tallied more in days than weeks). You could share a google doc.... :) Dust/Eve transfers
Major IMPACT Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 8	Posted - 2014.08.21 01:06:00 - [204] - Quote To add, I really would really like to see an ADV triage repair tool that can repair 2 targets at once (40/70) . I would also like to have the Proto Tier triage to repair 3 targets at once. Caldari logi- Ruler of Nanites
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4626	Posted - 2014.08.21 01:24:00 - [205] - Quote Major IMPACT wrote: To add, I really would really like to see an ADV triage repair tool that can repair 2 targets at once (40/70) . I would also like to have the Proto Tier triage to repair 3 targets at once. I'd rather see a tri-beam repair tool as an officer variant or the LP item. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 165	Posted - 2014.08.21 01:31:00 - [206] - Quote I've again, just tossing out our there but, now that orbitals are now 5k, would it be possible to soften the wp cap on logis maybe? Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4629	Posted - 2014.08.21 03:13:00 - [207] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: I've again, just tossing out our there but, now that orbitals are now 5k, would it be possible to soften the wp cap on logis maybe? My idea was to increase wp amounts of various things like ammo resupply, intel assist, and transport assist, while decreasing triage. The thing is, while yes triage would be less, the cap would still be the same, meaning that the potential able to be earned would still be there, you'd just get more bonuses to feel like you're actually doing something. This would essentially "raise the cap" or at least the average duration before hitting the cap...while still keeping things balanced. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1000	Posted - 2014.08.21 10:08:00 - [208] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Btw I'd like to see some more posts in this thread about the support experience rather than just how to change the logistics suit to be better. I feel like I'm one of very few people who actually would like to better the experience of the support player rather than arguing about suit stats. Support experience from the view of a support logi,equipment focused: Rep tool -Hard to get a lock -Frequently point right at injured allies and the tool refuses to lock on,this then forces you to release the fire button,sit through the 'powering down and withdrawal' animation while your ally dies right in front of you -Forces you to walk,and in such a terribly balanced suit,the person you're repping often outruns you by walking -0 incentive besides Wp,leaves you defenseless -When switching to your weapon,you are required to sit through the 'powering down and withdrawal' animation,only after the animation is finished are you permitted to defend yourself (a good 1-2 seconds,yet scouts can shoot instantly from being cloaked) -Insanely expensive for 'better' variants yet provides 0 additional advantages to it's user,it actually makes its weaknesses more profound. (range) Nanite injector: -Invest SP to get to Pro,and run to a downed ally just to get cut off by a garbage needle -Paralyzes you on top of an ally (leap frog effect) -Leaves you vulnerable (Notice a trend?) -Makes you run down a hill,because 'lolragdoll' won't let you see where their invisible revive point is Hives: -As soon as one goes down enemies 'lolspam' grenades -Usually pop before refilling a single ally -Insanely expensive for the 'better' variants,yet they pop just as easily -Grenade/RE spam depletes them almost instantly removing any chance for any more allies to get ammo. REs: -A luxury for a true support logi,abused by scouts -Can be thrown huge distances,despite the description saying the chemicals are volitile. -You can expect as a logi, that when an RE goes off you'll be the only one targeted,or the only one to be killed scouts heavies and even assault can stand almost on the dead center and survive,while a logi can be 2m away from an REs maximum radius and still be killed by it Scanners: -With scanners being nerfed everyone thought wall hack days were over,but were wrong,all CCP did was nerf the logistics class (for the 4th time in a row) and give what used to be logistics to scouts instead. Uplinks: -Meh Logistics suits: -I've learned the hard way nothing beats eHP -Tried other modules like kincats and cardiac regs,horrible result,it's a slow scout (low eHP) thats as easy to shoot as a heavy. -I would like to run something besides eHP modules,but my base speed is horrible,and i can't even outrun basic mediums even if i could i unlike a scout i would still be as big as a heavy. -Lose lose all the way around,logistics is forced to eHP tank because it literally can't do anything else and expect to survive long enough to do its job. -Personal experience with odd hitbox happenings: I have been killed by bullets i watch fly right by me. I can literally look at their side as they fly by,and i'll still be killed by them. Sidenote:I see you're trying to blow off and deflect from any relevant suit buffs to logistics. You can better the support experience dramatically by fixing the suits first. Trying to call it an 'arguement' is a lowbrow strategy trying to get off the subject of buffs for logistics,which are severely needed.Go somewhere else with your 'subterfuge'. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3882	Posted - 2014.08.21 13:09:00 - [209] - Quote Meee One wrote: Sidenote:I see you're trying to blow off and deflect from any relevant suit buffs to logistics. You can better the support experience dramatically by fixing the suits first. Trying to call it an 'arguement' is a lowbrow strategy trying to get off the subject of buffs for logistics,which are severely needed.Go somewhere else with your 'subterfuge'. lol... slow down there, newb. PIck your targets a little better. Shayz has a lot more cred on the topic than most anyone else. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1571	Posted - 2014.08.21 13:31:00 - [210] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Meee One wrote: Sidenote:I see you're trying to blow off and deflect from any relevant suit buffs to logistics. You can better the support experience dramatically by fixing the suits first. Trying to call it an 'arguement' is a lowbrow strategy trying to get off the subject of buffs for logistics,which are severely needed.Go somewhere else with your 'subterfuge'. lol... slow down there, newb. PIck your targets a little better. Shayz has a lot more cred on the topic than most anyone else. He does have a point though. Buffs to support modules and such are kind of moot if the suit designed to be best with them is still flawed. Although I think shayz meant more along the lines of "support that isn't exclusively logistics suits" which is a valid point. Rest in peace, oh Captain, my Captain.

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2768	Posted - 2014.08.21 14:25:00 - [211] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Meee One wrote: Sidenote:I see you're trying to blow off and deflect from any relevant suit buffs to logistics. You can better the support experience dramatically by fixing the suits first. Trying to call it an 'arguement' is a lowbrow strategy trying to get off the subject of buffs for logistics,which are severely needed.Go somewhere else with your 'subterfuge'. lol... slow down there, newb. PIck your targets a little better. Shayz has a lot more cred on the topic than most anyone else. He does have a point though. Buffs to support modules and such are kind of moot if the suit designed to be best with them is still flawed. Although I think shayz meant more along the lines of "support that isn't exclusively logistics suits" which is a valid point. Going to jump in on this one real quick. Shayz, who has been a Logi Bro since the early days of dust, has been in contact with me quite a bit and was extending some of the points made in a conversation he and I had prior, now I won't speak for him or anyone else but here's the upshot on this "Crosses view" if you will, and if you folks think I am insane please feel free to present your case and persuade me otherwise Survival is mandatory. Whatever contexts and time frames one can survive in almost completely define the bounds of potential utility one can provide in any role regardless of suit, role, fit, or infantry/vehicle. Note: HP = Raw Hit Points = "brick" or "buffer" tanking eHP = effective Hit Points = raw HP modified by weapon profiles, fit mobility, damage resistance, eWar profile, regeneration rates, arguably even hacking speed if that is part of your primary on field behavior (kind of a subcategory of speed). These two are not interchangeable and should not be treated as such. While they may serve the same role, saying "improve eHP" or "improve survivability" is not the same as saying "make X more like the sentinel frames" (who for the record have high HP and solid eHP do to their damage resistance, but have a lower eHP rating than their raw HP once one considers things like mobility and eWar). Support play is very too deeply defined as "that stuff you do in the logi suit". The Logistics frame is ideal for support, at least theoretically it is supposed to be, but at no point should all support be considered bounded by the use of the Logistics frame (mCRUs exist for one obvious example). Hacking, the entire equipment line, multiple vehicle fits (especially if we are able to restore logistics vehicles to the game, but even without them) are all support actions if/when focused on as a primary objective. Example 1: If links cannot be defended or maintained within a key area use of a vehicle with a mCRU can become vital, even if uplinks can be maintained there are instances where use of an mCRU will provide more effective support than an uplink (consider being on comms and altering the path of attack by relocating the mCRU spawn location.) Example 2: Fully damped scout with support equipment. This player is running a sub-300 HP fit with a rep tool, needle, hives, scanner (obviously not all of these at once, no more than two possible). This player is not in a fit that will survive direct contact with hot zones (tho flanking could be an effective combat tactic) however being under the radar they can focus on supporting their squad via the equipment they have on board and further support by clearing hostile equipment deploys and hacking hostile assets. They are not failing to play support simply because they are not in a Logistics frame. Indeed in the current state of the same there are certainly times where Scout frames will be more effective at support than their Logistics frame counterparts. The Logistics frame - Even where this frame in a perfect state (whatever that may be, opinions diverge on this subject drastically) support play would still not be defined purely by the suit. Without effective mods/gear to use for those support actions support play will remain hampered no matter what the status of any specific frame or chassis may be. That being said, the logistics frame is not in a good place right now and I am not shy about saying that. Indeed I have been saying it, and presenting the same reasons, for a very long time now. The reasons that I have presented (check my posting history for a full run down if you'd like one, but be warned it is somewhat long) still, to the best of my knowledge, remain unanswered and most of the conversations I have had on the subject, when they get down to discussions of specific fittings and actions, highlight that most players who are firm in their belief that the Logistics suits are fine as is do not have support actions compose the majority of their on field behavior (further many of them are also in the upper segments of the population when it comes to gun game so they have more latitude in how they do things). Character limit reached, and I have work to get back to, feel free to tell me how you think I'm wrong if you think I am. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Sum1ne Else Fatal Absolution 1355	Posted - 2014.08.21 15:01:00 - [212] - Quote I have been a Logi since Beta, and have slowly moved away from it for a few reasons. It's just not as fun anymore and you will only really see me Logi against strong teams or in PC. That said, I will always do the support thing at the beginning of a match. A few things I would like to address, and they are mainly game issues, rather than actually changing the Logi itself. Firstly, the glitched indicator for a revive still showing when said person is 'bled out' wtf? Bring back the glow around the screen when being repped (but just make it less prominent) Bring down the cost of prototype equipment (265k for 1 proto suit, really?) WP gains for more ADV gear used (already in action I know) Sprint glitch needs to be fixed Changing at a supply depot should not render your suits bonuses useless Give an innate explosive damage resistance; this would need to be increased through the tiers, 5, 10, 20% through STD, ADV, PROTO respectively. The bonuses are great, I like that each is individual because there are clearly different roles to play when you choose a Logi depending on how you want to play. I'm not too sure why you would need to change any of them I don't think the passive armour reps need to come back; this would just bring back slayer logis as I have spoken to the guys that specced out of the Logi suit because of this. I read pretty much all of the previous posts; Zaria Min Deir and I-Shayz-I have great things to say. I hope revisting the Logi suit does not mess them up, good luck. Thanks. Longest PLC Kill - 193.71m *Logi mk.0 - Com gk.0 - Scout gk.0 - Ass ak.0*
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3884	Posted - 2014.08.21 15:11:00 - [213] - Quote You're insane, Cross. Just one thought on what you are saying. I maintain the suits are presently the key to your ongoing project, as they are the only remaining class not to be hotfixed, and represent the most glaring hole in the "support experience." So, despite my earlier post, this is one of the few times I disagree with Shayz, in that the logi suits and improvements to the support role are not separate issues at the moment, even if only to the extent that you have to take the suits into account when modifying equipment and modules. To not address them simultaneously, even when just throwing around ideas, would only invite future problems. (I wasn't trolling Meee so much as cautioning him(her?), no need to invite another ban any more than he already is with the word choices and especially that sig) Scouts, as you mentioned, have a role in support, even when they only had one equipment slot I still always had a speed tanked/damped Dragonfly suit handy for dropping uplinks behind enemy lines. But, they are now in the position the logistics suits were previously argued to be, they fill all other roles better than the suit "intended" for it. So, for my money, the capability for support actions in scout suits should be looked on as something that needs to be degraded, at least in a relative sense... I've never liked the "nerf A to buff B" apporach so I don't want scouts nerfed per se, just not enhanced. (Though honestly, the fitting power of even a G/1 is pretty excessive, and only my stubbornness and loyalty to the Empire have so far kept me from being seduced by the dark side and abandoning my logi suits completely. It's sooo hard though! You really don't have to make any sacrifices at all fitting a Gallente scout nowadays) p.s. I read and made a few minor contributions to the whole "support actions" thread long ago, as you probably know. My memory might a be a little fuzzy, but I was down with most of what was presented there. It's more a matter of priorities and the "low hanging fruit" Rattati is looking for. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3884	Posted - 2014.08.21 15:21:00 - [214] - Quote Also, Cross, I'd love to get you to commit to an opinion on one topic (which you can obviously change in the future). One of the bigger and longer running discussions regarding the logi suits, and one I'm particularly interested in, has been the equipment efficacy bonuses. With only three main options put forward recently, it's fairly easy to state a concrete opinion on, unlike more complicated issues like eHP and "survivability" Throw me a bone here and at least tell me what you personally like the sound of: 1) Keep the bonuses as is, one suit, one equipment bonus. 2) Give each suit a bonus to two types of equipment. One primary bonus, one (smaller) secondary bonus. 3) Every suit gets a small bonus to each type of equipment in addition to the current primary bonus. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2284	Posted - 2014.08.21 15:39:00 - [215] - Quote Sum1ne Else wrote: Give an innate explosive damage resistance; this would need to be increased through the tiers, 5, 10, 20% through STD, ADV, PROTO respectively. Dear God no. Mass Drivers are literally one of the only ways to force a logi OFF a heavy long enough to burn the fat man down without finding a way to gank the logi outright. I don't think we need to be making MORE suits that resist splash damage, or we'll be rolling right back around to various weapons being utterly useless because :resists:
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2768	Posted - 2014.08.21 16:08:00 - [216] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: You're insane, Cross. Thank you, I'm glad we established that See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2768	Posted - 2014.08.21 16:19:00 - [217] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Also, Cross, I'd love to get you to commit to an opinion on one topic (which you can obviously change in the future). One of the bigger and longer running discussions regarding the logi suits, and one I'm particularly interested in, has been the equipment efficacy bonuses. With only three main options put forward recently, it's fairly easy to state a concrete opinion on, unlike more complicated issues like eHP and "survivability" Throw me a bone here and at least tell me what you personally like the sound of: 1) Keep the bonuses as is, one suit, one equipment bonus. 2) Give each suit a bonus to two types of equipment. One primary bonus, one (smaller) secondary bonus. 3) Every suit gets a small bonus to each type of equipment in addition to the current primary bonus. Okay, I am going to qualify this is takes of CPM hat, puts on been a support player since closed beta hat** my personal opinion rather than any locked down recommendation to CCP since I make a point to keep in mind that the two are not synonymous. In order here are my perceptions. 1. I never liked this conceptually or actually. The theory behind the move of "let us make the buffs racial" is something I actually do like, but in a game state where that means "you are now a one trick pony" that doesn't seem to fit the support role very well. "You have 3-4 slots... which you can fill with one type of mod... congrats!" (and people wonder why there is equipment spam ). 2. This, depending on how it is done, could be a positive move, even via lore it could work because the NPC empires have their allies so we could keep some of that 'racial flavor' aspect from above, even in the current limited game state, and still widen the pallet a little bit. 3. While as a long time support player this is obviously appealing to me, it seems a bit too much like "give me everything because I like shiny". And while I do indeed like shiny, I can't objectively say it is the likely to be the best route. I want players to have choices, and neither too tight a constraint, nor giving too wide a set of buffs, actually promotes meaningful choice / emergence in behavior. One note here however, is that the logistics role buff is and should be universal and within the correct context (current under quite a bit of discussion, more word soon... what? I can't give away all my secrets, who would love me then ) could be increased. In fact I have actually supported an increase to this since before it was even added as the role bonus (for those who want to know more on the subject, this means you can find out a lot in my post history ). Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2943	Posted - 2014.08.21 18:22:00 - [218] - Quote You also have to be careful to avoid over homogenizing the Logistics as well though. Even with some racial focus, if they all get +3% to all equipment but a +5% to their racial equipment...well then they don't feel very unique anymore. That being said I think Logistics do need more options, while still maintaining strong individuality. One suggestion I've made in the past is to the give all Logistics the Repair Tool Bonus, and then replace the Minmatar bonus with something like Remotes/Proxy mines. Because Explosions. You may be even go as far as the other poster suggested and add a secondary but lesser bonus, so essentially your Proto Logi setup would look like: Repair Tool: Full Bonus Racial Equipment: Full Bonus Sub-Racial Equipment: Partial Bonus 4th Equipment: No Bonus
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5270	Posted - 2014.08.21 20:31:00 - [219] - Quote PLEASE CAN WE GET MECHANIC POINTS FOR REPAIRING VEHICLES,TURRETS, CRUS AND SUPPLY DEPOTS. JUST APPLY THE TRIARGE MECHANIC AND RENAME IT, MECHANIC. BEEN SAYING THIS FOR OVER A YEAR NOW. SOME OF US GO THE EXTRA MILE SORRY FOR CAPS. "Oh, look!, There's, uh, two women f ing a polar bear". "Don't tell me those things".
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5270	Posted - 2014.08.21 20:53:00 - [220] - Quote Whats the experience is like right now provided you are not a brick tanked logi and you are one who really does care about supporting. heres some thoughts that regularly urinate in my cornflakes often. My teams awful, im screwed. Caught off guard, im dead. Dying 3 times cost about as much as 5 proto fits in equipment alone, almost. That's the 6th guy to die now because my rep tool wouldn't lock on. My injector didnt work when i wanted it to, nor did my rep tool lock on when i wanted it to, see you when we re-spawn buddy. After match hate mail for being a 'crap' logi, nice. I now have to hide because costs>supporting. Hey hey, 7th phantom revives a charm, so is the 8th re-spawn, gg. Hmmmm, assaults run too quick for me to keep up very often. oh a scout that has a rep tool and injector with comparable hp and more speed than me, i feel so loved. Ah, there goes another dirty mlt needle revive stolen from me.Aaaaannndd there goes another guy gunned down along with the fool who revived him. I wish i could run quicker without making myself so squishy. That's generally what my experience is like at the mo, which is why im usually on my alt or running assault or heavy. I know i could run cheaper stuff but just like most other people, i didn't play this game to skill into and keep my best gear as shinnies to look at. I also enjoy being able to support and survive to the best possible capacity which makes for FUN game play. I have the sever bpo but i rarely use it, I like that 4th equipment slot so i really am a Swiss army knife. "Oh, look!, There's, uh, two women f ing a polar bear". "Don't tell me those things".

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3893	Posted - 2014.08.21 21:19:00 - [221] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: You also have to be careful to avoid over homogenizing the Logistics as well though. Even with some racial focus, if they all get +3% to all equipment but a +5% to their racial equipment...well then they don't feel very unique anymore. That being said I think Logistics do need more options, while still maintaining strong individuality. One suggestion I've made in the past is to the give all Logistics the Repair Tool Bonus, and then replace the Minmatar bonus with something like Remotes/Proxy mines. Because Explosions. You may be even go as far as the other poster suggested and add a secondary but lesser bonus, so essentially your Proto Logi setup would look like: Repair Tool: Full Bonus Racial Equipment: Full Bonus Sub-Racial Equipment: Partial Bonus 4th Equipment: No Bonus I think you might have some unhappy minmatar logis then (which is fine with me, they should be cleaning my stables anyway...). You and I have debated this point before and will just have to agree to disagree, I think a global bonus that is closer to 1/4, maybe 1/3 of the main bonus is reasonable and would not over-homogenize the suits. Plus, it does really **** me off that a scout suit with 2 equipment slots does support as well, if not better, than my logi suit (which, not for nothing, also has only 2 equipment slots at STD). I just won't ever be OK with that. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5285	Posted - 2014.08.22 00:03:00 - [222] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: You're insane, Cross. Thank you, I'm glad we established that John Demonsbane wrote: p.s. I read and made a few minor contributions to the whole "support actions" thread long ago, as you probably know. My memory might a be a little fuzzy, but I was down with most of what was presented there. It's more a matter of priorities and the "low hanging fruit" Rattati is looking for. This is actually why some of my responses seem so unsatisfying, because the low hanging fruit will come first and until a tech evaluation I won't really know which items those turn out to be. Like the injector WP scaling that I have wanted since closed beta, it turns out there is a tech barrier to what would otherwise, conceptually, be some pretty obvious low hanging fruit. Besides, isn't it a lot more satisfying to get a blue post saying "these are the proposed changes for the hotfix" than me saying "these are the changes I'm going to propose be proposed for the hotfix, presuming there are no unknown tech hang ups" Yes, injector wp scaling ftw!. "Oh, look!, There's, uh, two women f ing a polar bear". "Don't tell me those things".
Sgt Kirk Lucent Echelon 7342	Posted - 2014.08.22 01:17:00 - [223] - Quote Primary: suit. Assault Secondary suit: Logistics both Gallente obviously. And this post will be full of unpopular opinions. Nanite Injector: Besides the fact that they should be Gallente I feel that Injectors should have recharge time per use. With that I feel that they should also be able to be used on yourself as well but have the effect devalued by 60% on a functioning clone, i.e. the player. Nanohives: The Compact Nanohive's cluster amount needs to be increased. I'm completely fine with only carrying one since it can replenish both armor and ammo. Active Scanners: More Variants needed. I feel that the Active scanners should come in three categories, Long range [+125m] and short angle [<60-¦], Shorter ranged [<100m] and wide angles [>90-¦], and lastly scanners in between. Besides that there is the matter of ewarfare to be looked at but that's a little bit too much to go into with a post I'd like to be relatively short. Native Regen for Logistics suits: All Logistics suits should get a native repair of 2 hps and give Gallente Logistics an additional two more. As for the bonuses it's already been said best by another poster: Quote: Skill Bonus. It's been 9 months of me saying this: They need to be comprehensive. The Logistics suits need to be the best at using all equipment. Not just a single one. Fire the idiot, even if it was LogiBro, that thought it was a good idea or even acceptable to have these split up. It's not even complicated. - Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive maximum nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and 5% to repair amount per leveland +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to maximum spawn count per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level Lucent Echelon -The Brightest Ranks Gallente Faction Warfare Chanel
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1014	Posted - 2014.08.22 01:26:00 - [224] - Quote I think some tweaks like * Lowered prices for proto equipment (in line with nanite injector cost) * Increase the fitting cost of most proto equipment * increase the logistics fitting bonus to compensate then we'd see a lot more logistics suits running higher tier equipment, because they would be the only ones who could run them without compromising their fit. Dust/Eve transfers
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5287	Posted - 2014.08.22 01:30:00 - [225] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: I think some tweaks like * Lowered prices for proto equipment (in line with nanite injector cost) * Increase the fitting cost of most proto equipment * increase the logistics fitting bonus to compensate then we'd see a lot more logistics suits running higher tier equipment, because they would be the only ones who could run them without compromising their fit. Hi. I run full proto equipment, raising the fitting cost means that I won't be able to do so......... I agree with the other 2 points. "Oh, look!, There's, uh, two women f ing a polar bear". "Don't tell me those things".
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1014	Posted - 2014.08.22 01:52:00 - [226] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: I run full proto equipment, raising the fitting cost means that I won't be able to do so......... OK, if your proto equipment totals 100CPU+20PG normally, your logistics bonus would turn that into 75CPU+15PG. If the bonus was changed from -5%/level to -10%/level but all proto equipment fitting cost is half again, then it becomes 150CPU+30 -> -50% due to skills -> 75CPU+15PG. No net change. Dust/Eve transfers
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2944	Posted - 2014.08.22 01:57:00 - [227] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I think you might have some unhappy minmatar logis then How so? They would still be receiving a bonus to the repair tool as they always have, and then gaining an additional bonus or two.
Sgt Kirk Lucent Echelon 7342	Posted - 2014.08.22 02:16:00 - [228] - Quote If we get anything out of this thread let it be known the Logistics should get bonuses to all equipment, some more than others based on suits race, Lucent Echelon -The Brightest Ranks Gallente Faction Warfare Chanel
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5288	Posted - 2014.08.22 02:39:00 - [229] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: I run full proto equipment, raising the fitting cost means that I won't be able to do so......... OK, if your proto equipment totals 100CPU+20PG normally, your logistics bonus would turn that into 75CPU+15PG. If the bonus was changed from -5%/level to -10%/level but all proto equipment fitting cost is half again, then it becomes 150CPU+30 -> -50% due to skills -> 75CPU+15PG. No net change. Ah yeah lol. Sorry its late here. "Oh, look!, There's, uh, two women f ing a polar bear". "Don't tell me those things".
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 425	Posted - 2014.08.22 03:45:00 - [230] - Quote It's great to see the CPM working on this. It is high time for some logi love! My primary support role is remote repping. Feedback on logistics support roles: My first thought is that logis need an EHP buff. Logis are targets on the field, especially when we're remote repping. Logis' survivability is out of whack with the other suits because they've all been iterated on while the logi has remained the same. This is just a crystal clear need to me and I hope to the CPM as well. Roles: Remote repping: I think this is working well. It is very effective, but not OP, especially now with the advent of the World Eating Burst HMG. A proto vehicle repper would add something to the game I think. And speaking of repping, the main thing repping logis need besides more EHP is more variety of roles/behaviors for heavies, which means adding the remaining two heavy weapons. Active Scanning: it seems to me the whole team should be able to see enemies lit up by active scans. There are only 16 of us on one team for crying out loud! One player should be able to help out the whole team in his role. Limiting visibility to squads also severely limits Gallente logistics usefulness in battles when soloing or in an in incomplete squad. And that's all the specialized roles there are for logis: remote repping and scanning. Throwing down hives and links is the role of every logi of any race. Just having faster spawning links or faster hives with more nanites does not a specialized role make. That means Caldari and Amarr logis have no real specialized support role. For them both to have one would require new active equipment, such as shield transporters, and I know we're not going there. So the only hope for them is for devs to emphasize their hybrid role. Slot-wise I think they're already there. They both only have 3 equipment slots at proto, and Amarr has the sidearm, Caldari the extra high slot. What they both need is a combat related bonus. I think a light weapon reload speed bonus would be ideal for the Cal logi. For the Amarr logi I'm thinking some passive rep and a bonus to biotics efficacy would work great, along with switching one of his high slots to a low slot. As for the rest of the equipment: Remotes: game breaking. Need to be changed so you have to sKet them and wait Uplinks: protos need more HP Nanohives: protos need more HP. I heard the ones that rep and give ammo break when heavies use them. They get sucked up too fast giving them ammo? Not sure. Nanite Injectors: just needs better "hit" detection and please find a way to get rid of the indicators that send me on a deadly wild goose chase to an empty spot with a needle icon on it. Thanks for again for focusing on this!

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3895	Posted - 2014.08.22 05:33:00 - [231] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: If we get anything out of this thread let it be known the Logistics should get bonuses to all equipment, some more than others based on suits race, Thank you! Can I get an amen!? (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1002	Posted - 2014.08.22 06:23:00 - [232] - Quote Double post Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1002	Posted - 2014.08.22 06:25:00 - [233] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: You also have to be careful to avoid over homogenizing the Logistics as well though. Even with some racial focus, if they all get +3% to all equipment but a +5% to their racial equipment...well then they don't feel very unique anymore. That being said I think Logistics do need more options, while still maintaining strong individuality. One suggestion I've made in the past is to the give all Logistics the Repair Tool Bonus, and then replace the Minmatar bonus with something like Remotes/Proxy mines. Because Explosions. You may be even go as far as the other poster suggested and add a secondary but lesser bonus, so essentially your Proto Logi setup would look like: Repair Tool: Full Bonus Racial Equipment: Full Bonus Sub-Racial Equipment: Partial Bonus 4th Equipment: No Bonus Full suit respecs you say? It isn't CCPs fault you took those refunded points and went into the wrong suit. Lesser bonuses are fine,but full isn't. If this happens i'll want a suit respec so i can go back to Gal,where my survival rate is higher. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1002	Posted - 2014.08.22 06:49:00 - [234] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Primary: suit. Assault Secondary suit: Logistics both Gallente obviously. And this post will be full of unpopular opinions. Nanite Injector: Besides the fact that they should be Gallente I feel that Injectors should have recharge time per use. With that I feel that they should also be able to be used on yourself as well but have the effect devalued by 60% on a functioning clone, i.e. the player. Makes sense seeing as it's a canister and not a tube linked to the suit,no to the self injecting too easily abused Nanohives: The Compact Nanohive's cluster amount needs to be increased. I'm completely fine with only carrying one since it can replenish both armor and ammo. No,this would enable too much solo game play. It would effectively decrease the need of support. Active Scanners: More Variants needed. I feel that the Active scanners should come in three categories, Long range [+125m] and short angle [<60-¦], Shorter ranged [<100m] and wide angles [>90-¦], and lastly scanners in between. Besides that there is the matter of ewarfare to be looked at but that's a little bit too much to go into with a post I'd like to be relatively short. More options are always better than less,as long as the differences are made clear. Native Regen for Logistics suits: All Logistics suits should get a native repair of 2 hps and give Gallente Logistics an additional two more. 100% agree,it'll help when a logi is being shot at while repping. As for the bonuses it's already been said best by another poster: Quote: Skill Bonus. It's been 9 months of me saying this: They need to be comprehensive. The Logistics suits need to be the best at using all equipment. Not just a single one. Fire the idiot, even if it was LogiBro, that thought it was a good idea or even acceptable to have these split up. It's not even complicated. - Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive maximum nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and 5% to repair amount per leveland +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to maximum spawn count per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level NO,all this will do is eradicate certain logistics. EG,Amarr with Min reps + uplinks = 0 need for any other logistics. The only way the last portion about logistics bonuses wouldn't be bad is if the current logistics bonuses were doubled. It would be fine then,because each logistics would blow the others away with its racial equipment. Sidenote for Cross:Can we get the bonuses doubled? Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2945	Posted - 2014.08.22 06:56:00 - [235] - Quote Meee One wrote: Full suit respecs you say? It isn't CCPs fault you took those refunded points and went into the wrong suit. Lesser bonuses are fine,but full isn't. If this happens i'll want a suit respec so i can go back to Gal,where my survival rate is higher. I'm...confused. When did I mention a respec?
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3895	Posted - 2014.08.22 11:35:00 - [236] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Meee One wrote: Full suit respecs you say? It isn't CCPs fault you took those refunded points and went into the wrong suit. Lesser bonuses are fine,but full isn't. If this happens i'll want a suit respec so i can go back to Gal,where my survival rate is higher. I'm...confused. When did I mention a respec? You didn't. He's one of the angry minmatar I warned you about (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2289	Posted - 2014.08.22 11:50:00 - [237] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Remotes: game breaking. Need to be changed so you have to sKet them and wait Uplinks: protos need more HP Nanohives: protos need more HP. I heard the ones that rep and give ammo break when heavies use them. They get sucked up too fast giving them ammo? Not sure. Nanite Injectors: just needs better "hit" detection and please find a way to get rid of the indicators that send me on a deadly wild goose chase to an empty spot with a needle icon on it. Thanks for again for focusing on this! Unattended equipment should be easy to destroy. they do not "require more HP." Nor does it need to be easier for people to stand inside triage hives and have them weather a mass driver barrage intended to remove them from play.
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 425	Posted - 2014.08.22 12:34:00 - [238] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: Remotes: game breaking. Need to be changed so you have to sKet them and wait Uplinks: protos need more HP Nanohives: protos need more HP. I heard the ones that rep and give ammo break when heavies use them. They get sucked up too fast giving them ammo? Not sure. Nanite Injectors: just needs better "hit" detection and please find a way to get rid of the indicators that send me on a deadly wild goose chase to an empty spot with a needle icon on it. Thanks for again for focusing on this! Unattended equipment should be easy to destroy. they do not "require more HP." Nor does it need to be easier for people to stand inside triage hives and have them weather a mass driver barrage intended to remove them from play. Right now MD and grenades take out proto equipment too fast. I know because I'm on the giving end. Just need a little more resilience. Shouldn't just go poof. Actually that would be a great nanohive variant: a repping hive that reps half the HP but has a lot of shields and is hard to take out with MD.
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4659	Posted - 2014.08.22 12:50:00 - [239] - Quote Equipment doesn't need more HP Proto equipment just needs a lower profile. Let's reward PLACEMENT rather than spamming in open areas. By hiding your uplink well, it won't show up on scans or passives as long as you're using the best of the best...that's what I want. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 425	Posted - 2014.08.22 12:54:00 - [240] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Equipment doesn't need more HP Proto equipment just needs a lower profile. Let's reward PLACEMENT rather than spamming in open areas. By hiding your uplink well, it won't show up on scans or passives as long as you're using the best of the best...that's what I want. Low profile equipment. Another good variant they could add!

zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 426	Posted - 2014.08.22 13:36:00 - [241] - Quote Y'all talk like equipment is hard to take down. As far as I can tell I'm one shotting everything with my assault MD. I should have to work harder. Repping hives aren't actually used that much. They need to be made more viable for point defense. Well I guess there needs to be an advanced option for a pure repping hive.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2291	Posted - 2014.08.22 14:11:00 - [242] - Quote No, there needs to be more reptools, less rep hives. Rep hives devalue logistics players and make repair spam trivial.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1582	Posted - 2014.08.22 15:05:00 - [243] - Quote Cross, what's your opinion on making Logistics be like scout suits, with their current low health, better suit ewar and faster speed than assaults? I really feel like this keeps them from being "slayerlogis" (although we haven't needed to worry about that in a long time) and gives them a better role for a team. Rest in peace, oh Captain, my Captain.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2772	Posted - 2014.08.22 15:22:00 - [244] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: Equipment doesn't need more HP Proto equipment just needs a lower profile. Let's reward PLACEMENT rather than spamming in open areas. By hiding your uplink well, it won't show up on scans or passives as long as you're using the best of the best...that's what I want. Low profile equipment. Another good variant they could add! This is something that I asked for long prior the CPM race or elections, thank you both for bringing the idea back to the forefront of my thoughts See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2772	Posted - 2014.08.22 15:24:00 - [245] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Cross, what's your opinion on making Logistics be like scout suits, with their current low health, better suit ewar and faster speed than assaults? I really feel like this keeps them from being "slayerlogis" (although we haven't needed to worry about that in a long time) and gives them a better role for a team. I think a case could be made for having the Logistics suits be the "light" Medium frames while the Assault suits are the "heavy" Medium frames. I would be interested in hearing community debate/input on that specific sub-topic. I do want to emphasize however that both the Medium frames should very much remain Medium to preserve role values, but things to make Logi/Assault more unique from each other and more of a specialization choice seems worth looking at. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3896	Posted - 2014.08.22 15:27:00 - [246] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Cross, what's your opinion on making Logistics be like scout suits, with their current low health, better suit ewar and faster speed than assaults? I really feel like this keeps them from being "slayerlogis" (although we haven't needed to worry about that in a long time) and gives them a better role for a team. I think a case could be made for having the Logistics suits be the "light" Medium frames while the Assault suits are the "heavy" Medium frames. I would be interested in hearing community debate/input on that specific sub-topic. I do want to emphasize however that both the Medium frames should very much remain Medium to preserve role values, but things to make Logi/Assault more unique from each other and more of a specialization choice seems worth looking at. As I mentioned in my main post in this thread, I favor the option of making them the "light" medium frames. Because reasons. (that I think I put in that post.) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5305	Posted - 2014.08.22 15:31:00 - [247] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Cross, what's your opinion on making Logistics be like scout suits, with their current low health, better suit ewar and faster speed than assaults? I really feel like this keeps them from being "slayerlogis" (although we haven't needed to worry about that in a long time) and gives them a better role for a team. I think a case could be made for having the Logistics suits be the "light" Medium frames while the Assault suits are the "heavy" Medium frames. I would be interested in hearing community debate/input on that specific sub-topic. I do want to emphasize however that both the Medium frames should very much remain Medium to preserve role values, but things to make Logi/Assault more unique from each other and more of a specialization choice seems worth looking at. No amount of speed is going to keep you alive and supporting your team while in a gunfight with low hp. Enter - more logis hiding in the corner because of squishy suits and high cost equipment. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=172432&find=unread
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2773	Posted - 2014.08.22 15:33:00 - [248] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Cross, what's your opinion on making Logistics be like scout suits, with their current low health, better suit ewar and faster speed than assaults? I really feel like this keeps them from being "slayerlogis" (although we haven't needed to worry about that in a long time) and gives them a better role for a team. I think a case could be made for having the Logistics suits be the "light" Medium frames while the Assault suits are the "heavy" Medium frames. I would be interested in hearing community debate/input on that specific sub-topic. I do want to emphasize however that both the Medium frames should very much remain Medium to preserve role values, but things to make Logi/Assault more unique from each other and more of a specialization choice seems worth looking at. As I mentioned in my main post in this thread, I favor the option of making them the "light" medium frames. Because reasons. (that I think I put in that post.) These posts? #1 & #2 See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2773	Posted - 2014.08.22 15:35:00 - [249] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Cross, what's your opinion on making Logistics be like scout suits, with their current low health, better suit ewar and faster speed than assaults? I really feel like this keeps them from being "slayerlogis" (although we haven't needed to worry about that in a long time) and gives them a better role for a team. I think a case could be made for having the Logistics suits be the "light" Medium frames while the Assault suits are the "heavy" Medium frames. I would be interested in hearing community debate/input on that specific sub-topic. I do want to emphasize however that both the Medium frames should very much remain Medium to preserve role values, but things to make Logi/Assault more unique from each other and more of a specialization choice seems worth looking at. No amount of speed is going to keep you alive and supporting your team while in a gunfight with low hp. Enter - more logis hiding in the corner because of squishy suits and high cost equipment. Counter point noted, care to elaborate a bit more for the sake of discussion? The more clearly articulated a community view I can present to CCP the better case can be made for either change. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3899	Posted - 2014.08.22 15:44:00 - [250] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: These posts? #1 & #2 Yes. Added link to #1 in my post. Cross Atu wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: No amount of speed is going to keep you alive and supporting your team while in a gunfight with low hp. Enter - more logis hiding in the corner because of squishy suits and high cost equipment. Counter point noted, care to elaborate a bit more for the sake of discussion? The more clearly articulated a community view I can present to CCP the better case can be made for either change. Tech is correct, of course. Currently a Gallente scout can pretty much get the same/more HP as my logi suit and also has inherent reps, is faster, invisible, etc. That needs to be rectified at the same time. The HP is too low on the logi suits currently (if you are not fitting them purely for maximum tank), and needs work, regardless of what approach you make take to "fixing" them in Delta. However, I think instead of HP and/or a return of the inherent reps as the primary means by which to improve survivability, that should be an adjunct to what I feel is something that will also improve their overall utility (which a straight HP buff won't). Which is to make them faster and less visible/more ewar-capable than Assaults. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5306	Posted - 2014.08.22 15:50:00 - [251] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Cross, what's your opinion on making Logistics be like scout suits, with their current low health, better suit ewar and faster speed than assaults? I really feel like this keeps them from being "slayerlogis" (although we haven't needed to worry about that in a long time) and gives them a better role for a team. I think a case could be made for having the Logistics suits be the "light" Medium frames while the Assault suits are the "heavy" Medium frames. I would be interested in hearing community debate/input on that specific sub-topic. I do want to emphasize however that both the Medium frames should very much remain Medium to preserve role values, but things to make Logi/Assault more unique from each other and more of a specialization choice seems worth looking at. No amount of speed is going to keep you alive and supporting your team while in a gunfight with low hp. Enter - more logis hiding in the corner because of squishy suits and high cost equipment. Counter point noted, care to elaborate a bit more for the sake of discussion? The more clearly articulated a community view I can present to CCP the better case can be made for either change. Ok. No logi can support its team in the thick of it with low hp. Brick tanking is an option but then you would be slow as hell so you would never be able to catch up. Ewar is all good but then stacking ewar mods leads us back to low hp.......plus that is a scouts job, generally speaking. The most that speed is going to help you with if we keep low hp is getting your arse out of the action and running away because of your suit costs. You can get to where you are needed quicker but again, when you get there and there's a gunfight then you are buggered. Don't be forgetting that any decent player will kill the logi first which is the stigma for a lot of what i say In a non brick tanked logi fit that is fitted to excel at support, the scenario ends with an almost guaranteed death when you are left on your own if everyone has died. I know its support but thats no excuse for being a free kill for COMPETENT players. I feel like the game is screaming at me BRICK TANK OR GTFO, which is basically what pc is. A lot of the fits i use for my logi are quite literally unsuitable for pc and i cant play my way unless im down with dying repeatedly. sorry if thats vague or doesn't even help, im jacked up on caffeine, playing dust and working so my mind is all over the place at the mo. Maybe i should have waited to reply, meh lol. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=172432&find=unread
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5306	Posted - 2014.08.22 16:04:00 - [252] - Quote We need speed and a hp buff but nothing silly. A regen buff would be just as good as a hp buff maybe. Equipment costs need to go down as well. It is silly that it costs so much for something that is used to help others as it is. I dont want some op hp, speedy cheap arse suit either, this is just stuff that i think is needed. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=172432&find=unread
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 428	Posted - 2014.08.22 16:26:00 - [253] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: No, there needs to be more reptools, less rep hives. Rep hives devalue logistics players and make repair spam trivial. Rep hives can't compete with a min logi with a proto rep tool. They're stationary and can be popped with MD easily.
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 428	Posted - 2014.08.22 17:05:00 - [254] - Quote Survivability needs to be addressed one way or another. A smaller hit box and more speed would work. More EHP would work too. I also strongly feel that logis' precision should be lowered to 40. This would enable logis to get their precision under 24 by fitting two complex PEs. Under 24 is low enough to detect non-dampened cal/gal scouts with proto cloak. Scouts could still get under this passive scan with one complex dampener. This way logis could sacrifice tank to have a chance at detecting incoming scouts--a valuable support role--and scouts would face more pressure to commit to dampening.
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5312	Posted - 2014.08.22 17:17:00 - [255] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Survivability needs to be addressed one way or another. A smaller hit box and more speed would work. More EHP would work too. I also strongly feel that logis' precision should be lowered to 40. This would enable logis to get their precision under 24 by fitting two complex PEs. Under 24 is low enough to detect non-dampened cal/gal scouts with proto cloak. Scouts could still get under this passive scan with one complex dampener. This way logis could sacrifice tank to have a chance at detecting incoming scouts--a valuable support role--and scouts would face more pressure to commit to dampening. Nice. This would counter the brick tanked filth who are basically impossible to kill even if you spot them first and shot them a few times. It is game breaking when a fit with around 800hp is speedy, can scan down almost everything, can go invisible, has two equipment slots, quick regen and a fking shotgun to boot with re's......what exactly was ccp thinking?. I enjoy my scout and the easy mode killing, dont get me wrong, but it is a complete joke. Scouts should have way heavier penalties for equipping plates and i have a scout alt myself so im not being a regular 'nerf what i don't like' scrub when i say that. that's a different kettle of fish altogether anyway. My Amarr scout alt for reference is...... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=172432&find=unread
RendonaSix IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 244	Posted - 2014.08.22 17:18:00 - [256] - Quote Me, but i don't have a single brick tanked fit. also Amarr assault with all the proto goodies. Scr is fine. I am Techs Amarr other half of his shattered consciousness. Yes, I did just refer to myself in the third person.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2946	Posted - 2014.08.22 17:59:00 - [257] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Survivability needs to be addressed one way or another. A smaller hit box and more speed would work. More EHP would work too. I also strongly feel that logis' precision should be lowered to 40. This would enable logis to get their precision under 24 by fitting two complex PEs. Under 24 is low enough to detect non-dampened cal/gal scouts with proto cloak. Scouts could still get under this passive scan with one complex dampener. This way logis could sacrifice tank to have a chance at detecting incoming scouts--a valuable support role--and scouts would face more pressure to commit to dampening. I think messing with the hitbox in any case is just bad practice. Then suddenly you have a situation where bullets are appearing to hit the model, but are not colliding with the hitbox. Not only does it not make sense aesthetically, but it causes gameplay issues where its unclear what part of the enemy model is 'hittable' and what isn't. While some variation in Model vs Hitbox will occure between genders and races, the difference is small enough to be non issue. Hitbox needs to be dictated by the frame size and that alone. At this point, fear or "Slayer Logis" is unmeritied. It's clear that CCP is moving towards a standardized slot layouts for frames as a whole, and we'll likely see Logistics suits matching their Assault counterparts very soon. That being said, all Assaults recently had a 100 HP increase. Logistics previously had around 50 HP less than their Assault counterpart (varied slightly by race), and that difference has now increased to around 150 post-Charlie. In addition, Assaults now have similar PG/CPU compared to their Logistics counterparts. So Here's what you've got Assaults 150 More Hp Than Logistics Similar Slots Similar Fitting Only need to fit 1 equipment Reduction to Light/Grenade Fitting offsets Sidearm cost. Higher Speed High Stamina Look at that, generally there is physically no way for a Logistics to have significantly more HP than its Assault counterpart. Logis still need to fill the same number of slots, as well as 2-3 additional equipment. Even if they don't fit the equipment, their defenses cant exceed the Assault much because they have similar slots. EVen if you gave the Logistics the same 100 HP bonus, they fall short of the Assault in terms of survivability if they use equipment, and come close to matching if they don't. Personal opinion here, give Logis the same 100 HP bonus, bringing the average HP difference between Assaults and Logis back to around 50HP. Increase fitting bonus from 25% to 50%. This means a logi using 4 equipment really only has to fit 2 effectivly, since two of them are 'free'. So here's the fitting comparison (Minmatar for an example since that's the one I'm most used to) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14uuIpinpRTM-RsPQdIb8bfkZ74eOYyZrLZUIoF87jeA/edit?usp=sharing Looking at that, Logis have sub-par base HP but to a lesser degree and this is fine. Since slots and resources are the same, Logis can't skip equipment to gain better defenses than an assault, but the fitting reduction for the equipment is higher, meaning that they really only need to fit one more equipment worth of PG/CPU on than the ASsault. Admiditly the savings on Light Weapons and Grenades probably isnt enough to completely offset the Assault's sidearm, so the Assaults need to partially fit a sidearm, and Logis need to full fit an additional equipment (which will cut in to their defenses slightly, but that's also OK). So what you have now is a Logi that can fit similar defenses to that of an Assault, but not exceed, and not be completely weighed down by the cost of his equipment.
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5317	Posted - 2014.08.22 18:03:00 - [258] - Quote Ah cross, CROOOSSS!. If logis get hp buffs, please forward it that it should be relative to the racial philosophies. Ill cry if my logi gets an armour buff and in fact, the hp we have now could do with some addressing. My min logi has more armour than shield base stats. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=172432&find=unread
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2948	Posted - 2014.08.22 18:10:00 - [259] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Ah cross, CROOOSSS!. If logis get hp buffs, please forward it that it should be relative to the racial philosophies. Ill cry if my logi gets an armour buff and in fact, the hp we have now could do with some addressing. My min logi has more armour than shield base stats. Yeah the Minmatar Logi HP stats are goofy. Minmatar Assault 200 Shield 185 Armor Minmatar Logi 90 Shield 150 Armor wut?
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2778	Posted - 2014.08.22 18:12:00 - [260] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Ah cross, CROOOSSS!. If logis get hp buffs, please forward it that it should be relative to the racial philosophies. Ill cry if my logi gets an armour buff and in fact, the hp we have now could do with some addressing. My min logi has more armour than shield base stats. That's something I will say unequivocally, I will be advocating for any/all logistics suit buffs to maintain racial flavor. Maintaining this speaks to diversity and meaningful player choice. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5321	Posted - 2014.08.22 18:17:00 - [261] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: Ah cross, CROOOSSS!. If logis get hp buffs, please forward it that it should be relative to the racial philosophies. Ill cry if my logi gets an armour buff and in fact, the hp we have now could do with some addressing. My min logi has more armour than shield base stats. That's something I will say unequivocally, I will be advocating for any/all logistics suit buffs to maintain racial flavor. Maintaining this speaks to diversity and meaningful player choice. SCHWING! https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=172432&find=unread
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3901	Posted - 2014.08.22 19:31:00 - [262] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: Survivability needs to be addressed one way or another. A smaller hit box and more speed would work. More EHP would work too. I also strongly feel that logis' precision should be lowered to 40. This would enable logis to get their precision under 24 by fitting two complex PEs. Under 24 is low enough to detect non-dampened cal/gal scouts with proto cloak. Scouts could still get under this passive scan with one complex dampener. This way logis could sacrifice tank to have a chance at detecting incoming scouts--a valuable support role--and scouts would face more pressure to commit to dampening. I think messing with the hitbox in any case is just bad practice. Then suddenly you have a situation where bullets are appearing to hit the model, but are not colliding with the hitbox. Not only does it not make sense aesthetically, but it causes gameplay issues where its unclear what part of the enemy model is 'hittable' and what isn't. While some variation in Model vs Hitbox will occure between genders and races, the difference is small enough to be non issue. Hitbox needs to be dictated by the frame size and that alone. At this point, fear or "Slayer Logis" is unmeritied. It's clear that CCP is moving towards a standardized slot layouts for frames as a whole, and we'll likely see Logistics suits matching their Assault counterparts very soon. That being said, all Assaults recently had a 100 HP increase. Logistics previously had around 50 HP less than their Assault counterpart (varied slightly by race), and that difference has now increased to around 150 post-Charlie. In addition, Assaults now have similar PG/CPU compared to their Logistics counterparts. So Here's what you've got Assaults 150 More Hp Than Logistics Similar Slots Similar Fitting Only need to fit 1 equipment Reduction to Light/Grenade Fitting offsets Sidearm cost. Higher Speed High Stamina Look at that, generally there is physically no way for a Logistics to have significantly more HP than its Assault counterpart. Logis still need to fill the same number of slots, as well as 2-3 additional equipment. Even if they don't fit the equipment, their defenses cant exceed the Assault much because they have similar slots. EVen if you gave the Logistics the same 100 HP bonus, they fall short of the Assault in terms of survivability if they use equipment, and come close to matching if they don't. Personal opinion here, give Logis the same 100 HP bonus, bringing the average HP difference between Assaults and Logis back to around 50HP. Increase fitting bonus from 25% to 50%. This means a logi using 4 equipment really only has to fit 2 effectivly, since two of them are 'free'. So here's the fitting comparison (Minmatar for an example since that's the one I'm most used to) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14uuIpinpRTM-RsPQdIb8bfkZ74eOYyZrLZUIoF87jeA/edit?usp=sharing Looking at that, Logis have sub-par base HP but to a lesser degree and this is fine. Since slots and resources are the same, Logis can't skip equipment to gain better defenses than an assault, but the fitting reduction for the equipment is higher, meaning that they really only need to fit one more equipment worth of PG/CPU on than the ASsault. Admiditly the savings on Light Weapons and Grenades probably isnt enough to completely offset the Assault's sidearm, so the Assaults need to partially fit a sidearm, and Logis need to full fit an additional equipment (which will cut in to their defenses slightly, but that's also OK). So what you have now is a Logi that can fit similar defenses to that of an Assault, but not exceed, and not be completely weighed down by the cost of his equipment. You could give the old reps back instead of rebuffing the HP, but either one is probably fine. Not sure which one would result in less torches and pitchforks, that would be the one to go with, lol. As an Amarr I think getting some "free" armor without making me even slower than I already am sounds pretty good. If I had my way, though, I think I'd go with only 50-75 more HP, and buff the speed and ewar instead, the precision bonus a few posts up does sound pretty appealing... For my money, being able to actually see that damn scout coming would keep me alive longer than 1 shot's worth of HP. (Just gonna put this out there, since we're asking for stuff: I'd sure like about 10% more PG on my Amarr logi suits, Cross. Amarr stuff is very PG-heavy. Every one of my suits has like 10-20 available CPU and 0 PG. (even with maxed cores and not using ScR's) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2948	Posted - 2014.08.22 19:45:00 - [263] - Quote Armor reps just allows Logis to exceed the HP of assaults. Since they have a built in rep, they put an HP mod on instead, and suddenly their HP is now higher than an Assaults.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3902	Posted - 2014.08.22 20:02:00 - [264] - Quote But it's not much different now with the buff to armor reps. Its either an enhanced repper or an enhanced plate, basically (+5hp/s or +100 hp). I can't quote the fitting costs off the top of my head, but they aren't so different as to be a bigger deal than the speed penalty for equipping a plate. Given the choice, I'd rather have the base HP for that reason if nothing else, tbh. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2948	Posted - 2014.08.22 21:13:00 - [265] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: But it's not much different now with the buff to armor reps. Its either an enhanced repper or an enhanced plate, basically (+5hp/s or +100 hp). I can't quote the fitting costs off the top of my head, but they aren't so different as to be a bigger deal than the speed penalty for equipping a plate. Given the choice, I'd rather have the base HP for that reason if nothing else, tbh. Well you kinda touched on my point. Let's assume we don't buff the Logi HP Assault has the +100HP, fits a rep. Has HP & Rep. No downside. Logi has the rep, needs to fit HP mod to compensate for low base HP. Has HP & Rep. Stuck with downside of HP mod. Adding reps instead of base HP is the same result as adding hp instead of reps, but it's really 2 steps forward and one step back, and it feels kinda messy. I'd rather just have the 100 more HP in that case.
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 788	Posted - 2014.08.22 22:10:00 - [266] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: But it's not much different now with the buff to armor reps. Its either an enhanced repper or an enhanced plate, basically (+5hp/s or +100 hp). I can't quote the fitting costs off the top of my head, but they aren't so different as to be a bigger deal than the speed penalty for equipping a plate. Given the choice, I'd rather have the base HP for that reason if nothing else, tbh. Well you kinda touched on my point. Let's assume we don't buff the Logi HP Assault has the +100HP, fits a rep. Has HP & Rep. No downside. Logi has the rep, needs to fit HP mod to compensate for low base HP. Has HP & Rep. Stuck with downside of HP mod. Adding reps instead of base HP is the same result as adding hp instead of reps, but it's really 2 steps forward and one step back, and it feels kinda messy. I'd rather just have the 100 more HP in that case. I would rather not have a "throw moar HP at it!!!" approach. Assaults now have the same scan profile and precision as Logis. Why not lower Logi scan profiles and scan precision a tad? Say 45 dB for both? They still wouldn't be near a Scout's level, but it would help in a few areas. Give more stamina and recovery. Give us efficacy bonuses to Armor Reps and Shield Rechargers, Energizers and Regulators. Why can't Logi's be lower HP self repping suits of efficiency? I understand that, "Tuesdays!!! Armor reps are Gallente!!!" Well, do you think no technology has ever been stolen and used by gasp a competitor, even if it's less efficient? Ask the Germans where their rocket program went after WWII. Give us a basic bonus to ALL equipment, after all, it's what we DO. Anything but a blanket, "here's some more HP" solution... Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2949	Posted - 2014.08.22 22:16:00 - [267] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Why can't Logi's be lower HP self repping suits of efficiency? Because all of the reps in the world won't save you from being alpha'ed. Don't get me wrong I like the idea of Medium suits being kickass as health regen, been harping on that for a while, but I also think with the current balance of damage and the HP of other suits, the Logis will fall into obscurity due to lack of survivability in comparison to everything else. Compromise then, perhaps a mix of rep bonuses and a boost to HP?
Cass Caul 826	Posted - 2014.08.22 22:17:00 - [268] - Quote To the logis that don't brink tank, could you use www.protofits.com to show how you set up your Logi suits? Because right now, I'm running a Min, Cal, and Gal logi. All 3 of them are using proto EQ, proto Light Weapon, and the lowest HP is the Caldari because I've got a Complex Recharger and Complex Regulator on it. Min is rocking 900 total HP, the Caldari has 800 total HP, and the Gallente has 1100 total HP The difference in speed and stamina isn't significant enough for me to really care unless the distance we're trying to travel would be more suited to LAV/DS If I sacrificed the Regen mods for more HP I could get the caldari up to 900. Give it another 100HP because that's what people want and it ends up with 1000 total HP. While my Caldari Commando, a Heavy Frame, has 1100 Total HP right now using 3x complex shield extenders and a complex reactive plate. I can max out HP on a Gallente Commando with 1330 total HP. Give that Gallente Logistics another HP and they're only 100HP apart. How is this not indicative of power creep? Bad enough my Assault Suits have more HP than a Heavy Frame, why should Logistics also be better at this? I blame her for nova knife kills on tanks
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2949	Posted - 2014.08.22 22:22:00 - [269] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: To the logis that don't brink tank, could you use www.protofits.com to show how you set up your Logi suits? Because right now, I'm running a Min, Cal, and Gal logi. All 3 of them are using proto EQ, proto Light Weapon, and the lowest HP is the Caldari because I've got a Complex Recharger and Complex Regulator on it. Min is rocking 900 total HP, the Caldari has 800 total HP, and the Gallente has 1100 total HP The difference in speed and stamina isn't significant enough for me to really care unless the distance we're trying to travel would be more suited to LAV/DS If I sacrificed the Regen mods for more HP I could get the caldari up to 900. Give it another 100HP because that's what people want and it ends up with 1000 total HP. While my Caldari Commando, a Heavy Frame, has 1100 Total HP right now using 3x complex shield extenders and a complex reactive plate. I can max out HP on a Gallente Commando with 1330 total HP. Give that Gallente Logistics another HP and they're only 100HP apart. How is this not indicative of power creep? Bad enough my Assault Suits have more HP than a Heavy Frame, why should Logistics also be better at this? That's also going under the assumption that Commandos have appropriate slots and stats, which is debatable. I mean lets be fair here, Appia, when you say Heavy Suit, you pick the heavy class with the lowest HP of the Heavy Frames and has the most restrictive slot layout of any suit type in the game. Compare your numbers to the HP and eHP of a Sentinel and its a bit of a different story.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1585	Posted - 2014.08.22 22:25:00 - [270] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Why can't Logi's be lower HP self repping suits of efficiency? I understand that, "Tuesdays!!! Armor reps are Gallente!!!" Well, do you think no technology has ever been stolen and used by gasp a competitor, even if it's less efficient? Ask the Germans where their rocket program went after WWII. Give us a basic bonus to ALL equipment, after all, it's what we DO. Anything but a blanket, "here's some more HP" solution... Rather, any race can rep, but they Gallente specialize in it. Just like any race can shield tank, but the Caldari do it better. Rest in peace, oh Captain, my Captain.

ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 3222	Posted - 2014.08.22 22:31:00 - [271] - Quote Honestly... I think we need to go back to the discussion started by Crazy Cat Lady a while back. If I had time I would make a much larger post on this but I'm just too busy with the semester starting back up now. Here is an idea for the community to ponder. What if... (and I know some peeps are gonna be plenty unhappy with this im sure) we go with a more EVE-inspired solution to this problem. Looking specifically at Logistics Cruisers in EVE, their entire bonus set revolves around remote repairs, remote capacitor transfer, and remote tracking links (something I don't think we really have an analogue for)... They are the medics of EVE. Why not translate that to health and ammo in Dust? i.e. Repair Tool Repair Rate and Nanohive supply rate and repair amount. Make it more about slot versatility and less about these drastically varied racial bonuses. Giving the logi suits something more like Logistics Bonus: -5% fitting requirements on equipment +10% Range on Repair Tools +10% Nanite Capacity on Nanohives Now the next part gets tricky... In EVE, they have remote shield boosters... we don't have that in Dust. If it would be possible to add that to Dust... then we could have some more interesting fits where Caldari and Minmatar get a bonus to shield reps and Amarr and Gallente get a bonus to Armor reps. If that is just flat out impossible, then we could consider something else... Without shield transporters we would need to fall back to rep rate and nano supply rate. My suggestion would then be... Gal/Am - 5% Repair Rate and 2.5% Nano Supply/Triage Rate Cal/Min - 2.5% Repair Rate and 5% Nano Supply/Triage Rate Now... you might ask what about the scanner and drop uplinks? Those have completely vanished off the list? I think they should, they really aren't THAT viable for logi suits as we've seen. Active Scanners compete with scouts for ewar and do it poorly and uplinks... well they would just be better suited for a suit that is faster than a min sentinel... So... I propose we wrap those bonuses into a new suit. Since we won't ever get a pilot suit... how about we start discussing a second light suit? I would call it the Recon Dropsuit. With a specialty on active scanning and drop uplink placement. I won't discuss this in depth but I would suggest it follows a similar type of bonus... getting a reduction on equipment and a global bonus say... Recon Bonus -5% fitting reqs on equip +% Scan Angle +2 Spawn Count per level + a flavor bonus by splitting the scan range, scan precision, recharge time (perhaps?) and uplink spawn delay up amongst the different races. Specifically, I think this could better handle the 'combat logi' role i've been fighting for when we first discussed Hotfix Charlie. A light suit with L/S E/E/E and a similar(ish) module layout to the scout. It would have similar passive ewar to an assault suit and no specific bonus to ewar. Just active scanning and drop uplinks. They are speedy enough to get around and place drop uplinks in strategic positions, better than an Amarr Logi can. By moving the combat logi role to this frame, you can have a traditional active scan and drop uplink kind of build or build it as a pseudo-logi... equipping a rep tool, injector, nanohive setup but losing out specifically on any bonuses to those when compare to a more dedicated setup, the logistics suit. Lastly, with the release of a suit to carry out the combat logi role on its own, we can normalize the racial logi suits to 1 L 0 S and 4 E like they should be if we want to maintain racial consistency. I'm sure a lot of people are not going to like this suggestion but I think its worth putting out there... at least to spark a discussion that is more than just "how many slots should a logi get so they are balanced." imo, the biggest problem with Logi suits atm is that some bonuses are clearly far more valuable than others, this actually stifles variety rather than increasing it. Logi suit bonuses are spread too thin atm, and we need to more clearly define what we think the Logi should actually be, and 'equipment ***** is not enough definition' imho. I think with these proposed changes being this substantial (plus all of the other changes in the previous hotifxes) it would be time for a complete, or at least another dropsuit command, SP reallocation. B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2949	Posted - 2014.08.22 22:38:00 - [272] - Quote Gonna have to really disagree with you on the Logis there ZDub, sorry. You've got Gal and Amarr with identical bonuses, and Minmatar and Caldari with identical bonuses, and even then they're not that different from one another. I certainly appreciate the attempt to kinda mirror Logis from EVE but as you pointed out, we're missing a lot of the additional support tools that you typically see on an EVE Logi ship, and I think trying to force that kind of support without the right tools leads to a cramped and bland design. The suits just end up being too similar and you really lose any sense of racial differences which I just can't support.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 3222	Posted - 2014.08.22 23:18:00 - [273] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Gonna have to really disagree with you on the Logis there ZDub, sorry. You've got Gal and Amarr with identical bonuses, and Minmatar and Caldari with identical bonuses, and even then they're not that different from one another. I certainly appreciate the attempt to kinda mirror Logis from EVE but as you pointed out, we're missing a lot of the additional support tools that you typically see on an EVE Logi ship, and I think trying to force that kind of support without the right tools leads to a cramped and bland design. The suits just end up being too similar and you really lose any sense of racial differences which I just can't support. Racial difference would come from... well racial differences. Slot layout, tanking styles, etc. Think about people who want to play along racial lines as well. Someone who wants to play a non-minmatar medic style suit can't right now. The bonuses are too spread out. Atm if you want to be more of a medic type logi, you are forced to play minmatar but that is not necessarily the suit that everyone wants to play. Could the bonuses themselves maybe use some iteration? Sure... like I said, I just want to throw it out there so people can think about it as a viable option. I'll admit, the lack of a shield transporter makes it a bit less defined. Logistics sutis in this game just have to be treated differently from the other classes. For most everything else, the objective of the game is to shoot the other person in the face. That's what assault suits do, thats what commandos do, heavies, etc. But equipment is fundamentally different from piece to piece. The scanner doesn't fulfill the same role that a nanohive does, or a rep tool. Its gonna be a little narrow-minded to say this but... atm if you want to play a true support logi... I don't see how you can play that class to its fullest potential without being a min logi. Now most people are suggesting giving a 'global' style of bonus to each logi suit, but thats no different than what i'm suggesting really. You're normalizing the equipment bonus so that racial and tanking preferences are more relavent. I just don't see that uplinks necessarily belong on the logi frame, a comment made by IWS on a Biomassed podcast a while back... which I definitely agree with. Additionally, active scanners compete with scout ewar... and for a long time scout ewar was far more powerful than a Gal Logi with a scanner. I suspect since 1.8 the usage of the Gal Logi is minimal, and its probably only by people who want to play Gallente Medic albeit less effective than they could if they shrugged off racial preference and skilled in Min Logi. Cal Logi is just lol... Shields are less preferred as a tanking style and nanohive bonus just doesn't really matter. Amarr Logi is played primarly for the sidearm, even though the uplink bonus is bugged and is almost never actually active, I still suspect it would only be played by 'slayer-logis' with an added bonus of uplink reduction. They are slow though, and i'll admti most of the time I just drop my uplink near the action and start slaying... I don't really think about strategic uplink placement, i'm far too slow for the suit to be very effective at it. I think we need to abandon the idea of racial equipment for logis like the bonuses are for the assault and commando. A global rep bonus must happen to the logi class if its ever going to have a defined role. Until we can actually define what the role of a logistics suit really is, it'll never really be 'balanced' in the same way tanks will never be 'balanced'... they just don't have a defined role. My suggestion is to define the logi as a medic, just like it (mostly) is in EVE. While moving some of the non-medic type stuff elsewhere. But hey... just my thoughts on the matter. B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2950	Posted - 2014.08.22 23:27:00 - [274] - Quote Well for one I'm generally against the idea that Logis should get a bonus to ALL equipment. I'd like to see them get some additional bonuses, just not to everything because I dislike over homogenizing them like that. As for your comment about people wanting to be "medics" but not run Minmatar...I think we both agree that the Repair Tools is pretty much the quintessential equipment for any Logi, and I think we would be hard pressed to find someone who didn't have it on most of their fits, regardless of race. That's why I mentioned before we move the repair tool to be a universal Logi bonus and then give the Minmatar something else. I think this would really help a lot of Logis feel more comfortable about the suit they picked and help them fulfill the classic Logi role, which is repairing. Hell if you want to hit it from the lore aspect, read the description of the Repair Tool. We all kinda assumed it was a Minmatar thing, but its actually got a little bit of all 4 races in it. As for Uplinks of Logis...you're probably right. But again we really lack enough equipment that we can afford to be moving Uplinks and Scanners to other suits and further slicing the Logi apart. If anything I wish we had MORE kinds of equipment so each race could have its own unique flavor and share less equipment...but I'm also a really strong proponent of racial diversity and making them feel as distinctively different as possible.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 3222	Posted - 2014.08.22 23:43:00 - [275] - Quote Since 1.8, after speccing into Amarr Logi... i've used the repair tool a couple times for kicks but I almost never use it. My comments come from the original where all of that was discussed, like you say. I do have a few other comments then: 1. Is the WP/s generation potential of the Logi too high relative to other classes atm? 2. would moving the rep tool to a global bonus and then giving min a different secondary bonus not leave us in a similar position though? Where you simply use X racial logi suit for X racial logi equipment? It is probably mostly psychological but... I don't think I would ever use an active scanner unless I had a gallente logi... I'm sure that level of 'pidgeon-holing' is healthy in the long term. 3. is it 'okay' (I use this term loosely) that players who want an L/S 3E min logi cannot and players who want a L + 4E amarr logi cannot run that? Should Logis not get racial parity in their line-up like every other class has? If you change caldari and amarr to 4E layout, is it worth the blowback you get from the players who want their current playstyle? 4. Would moving some of the equipment bonuses to another class possibly justify a slight bump in move speed for the logi suit? Making it easier to keep up while repping? Would that be worth it to players who want to play true support type logi? 5. For those 'true support' types of logi players... does it make sense that everyone gets the rep tool but only caldari gets the nanohive? An arguably equally important support piece of equipment? If we had racial scanners, or racial nanohives, or racial rep tools, I would argue more tailored bonuses would make sense... but since that is unlikely to happen (nor does it need to) I would say we need to stop thinking along the racial bonus lines that Assaults/Commandos currently have. In the end, a gun kills other players... so a racial bonus is flavor. But a piece of equipment performs a specific function... racial equipment bonuses extend to more than just flavor, they are direct impact functionality to any specific suit and play style. That is why I suggest moving away from racial equipment bonuses. B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
Cass Caul 832	Posted - 2014.08.23 01:56:00 - [276] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: deflecting from the point Nice deflection. Why not try actually showing what you run. http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/1174 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/5442 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/7014 These suits are currently sitting in my inventory, albeit on a different character each. This is the style I use. My comparison of Logistics and Commandos is that of two different suits that typically use one of the 4 racial rifles neither of which are Assault Suits. I don't see any real need to increase the HP. A medium Frame can't really use profile dampeners. Precision mods on the suit are less effective than a Scout or a Gallente Logistics with PRO scanner. I don't have difficulty running or keeping up with my squad because we rarely sprint in excess of 80m so the difference in speed and stamina aren't really all that noticeable or have me wanting to use KinCats/CardRegs. Codebreakers? Maybe. Damage mods I could use in the highs on my Amarr and Gallente, my Amarr Logi doesn't have shield extension past 1 but does have handheld weapon upgrades V, so, that's what I do. What else am I missing? This is why I asked for the builds other people use, preferably on protofits so I can compare it to what I already have. I blame her for nova knife kills on tanks
Robocop Junior Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 769	Posted - 2014.08.23 02:29:00 - [277] - Quote Sidearm. If strength were all, tiger would not fear scorpion.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3903	Posted - 2014.08.23 02:33:00 - [278] - Quote I may be Amarr, but I rep tank a lot, it's an extension of what I do with my LR suits where I pop in and out behind cover. Not quite as smart for my Logi suit, but the way I see it, if someone with a shotty, six kin CR, or burst HMG gets the drop on me, it doesn't matter if I have 700 or 800 armor, I'm going down. Otherwise, if I survive, I'm back in it quicker. An exception is the suits I build exclusively for chubby chasing, those are brick tanked pretty hard with only one complex repper. Anyway, here they are. My RL situation and PC timers do not mix, so I rarely run proto, and this is my go-to logi fitting: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/7020 When I do run proto, which is usually in FW, it looks more like this: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/7021 (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 789	Posted - 2014.08.23 02:53:00 - [279] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Why can't Logi's be lower HP self repping suits of efficiency? Because all of the reps in the world won't save you from being alpha'ed. Don't get me wrong I like the idea of Medium suits being kickass as health regen, been harping on that for a while, but I also think with the current balance of damage and the HP of other suits, the Logis will fall into obscurity due to lack of survivability in comparison to everything else. Compromise then, perhaps a mix of rep bonuses and a boost to HP? This would definitely be a step in the right direction. I'm still pissed the Min Logi lost 30HP when Uprising dropped. Logis should be fantastic at everything except tanking and ganking. Should you be able to get ganked by a Logi if they get the drop on you? Absolutely, but you get the point. Our suits should be able to Logi themselves when we're busy Logi'ing everyone else. It's the basic stats of the Logi suit that are the issue for me. We barely rep faster than a Commando, and are barely FASTER than a Commando. The poster above talking about their brick tanked and now obsolete slayer logi fits is a prime example of the direction we do NOT need to head back down. eHP should not be the answer just because every other suit in the game has been buffed over the past year. On a side note, bummed you didn't get elected. I voted for ya, fwiw. Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 789	Posted - 2014.08.23 03:01:00 - [280] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Why can't Logi's be lower HP self repping suits of efficiency? I understand that, "Tuesdays!!! Armor reps are Gallente!!!" Well, do you think no technology has ever been stolen and used by gasp a competitor, even if it's less efficient? Ask the Germans where their rocket program went after WWII. Give us a basic bonus to ALL equipment, after all, it's what we DO. Anything but a blanket, "here's some more HP" solution... Rather, any race can rep, but they Gallente specialize in it. Just like any race can shield tank, but the Caldari do it better. Exactly. Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2953	Posted - 2014.08.23 04:18:00 - [281] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: This would definitely be a step in the right direction. I'm still pissed the Min Logi lost 30HP when Uprising dropped. Logis should be fantastic at everything except tanking and ganking. Should you be able to get ganked by a Logi if they get the drop on you? Absolutely, but you get the point. Our suits should be able to Logi themselves when we're busy Logi'ing everyone else. It's the basic stats of the Logi suit that are the issue for me. We barely rep faster than a Commando, and are barely FASTER than a Commando. The poster above talking about their brick tanked and now obsolete slayer logi fits is a prime example of the direction we do NOT need to head back down. eHP should not be the answer just because every other suit in the game has been buffed over the past year. On a side note, bummed you didn't get elected. I voted for ya, fwiw. Aww thanks man, I appreciate the support. There's always next time though! I don't think the Logi needs to be fantastic at tanking but I'm concerned that it's not even adequate. I mean if you're overly easy to kill as a logi, then you're not effective as support. They should be no means be superior to Assaults, as Logis should not engaged in direct combat, but I'm wondering if the gap in survivability will be too high between the two, especially since the Assaults actually feel about right, but the Logis have the added fitting burden of equipment, despite similar slots and resources. It means they typically need to sacrifice additional defenses on top of inferior base attributes which just exacerbates the problem. I think I'd be fine with a better regen approach, but I still think a small HP buff is still in order, and an increased fitting reduction on the Logi bonus to help offset the much higher cost of having 4 equipment instead of one.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1017	Posted - 2014.08.23 05:39:00 - [282] - Quote I have an idea: 1. Boost the 5%/level bonus for equipment to 12.5% 2. Increase the base HP of logi suits 3. Armour logistics suits get +2HP/second reps (gal gets 4 total) 4. Cut the suit PG to discourage further brick tanking - they can still fit e-war or whatever, just no complex plates etc. Dust/Eve transfers
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 68	Posted - 2014.08.23 07:37:00 - [283] - Quote The lack of a infantry portable Remote Shield Booster makes running Logi somewhat pointless for supporting some suits (and even if it did exist, the lack of buffer within shields vs the amount of damage that can be thrown down on them makes them un-viable from a brick-tanking perspective...would love to see a DUST version of the infamous Drake). Space-side there are two different kind of Logistics Ships (disregarding Capital Ships, and removing the difference between Armor and Shields). The Amarr Guardian and the Caldari Basalisk make up one type, while the Minmatar Scimitar and Gallente Oneiros make up the other. The Guardian and Basalisk hulls get bonuses to both racial primary buffer repair. and Capacitor (which is necessary to run almost all active modules). The Scimitar and Oneiros get bonus to both racial primary buffer repair and remote tracking computers (which improve damage application for Turret Class weapons). Now, Space-Side logistics and remote reps are extremely powerful...and I'm not saying that ground side logistics need to be that powerful (as when supporting a Sentinal suit with a bonus against your weapon of choice, they can make the Sentinal seem almost invincible), but a bonus for all suits to repairers would be nice. I'm not exactly sure how the rep mechanics work ground side...but I would suggest an decrease the Repair Cycle Duration on the Gallente and Minmatar Frames along with increased range to the Repair Cycles, while an equal percentage increase to the Repair Amount on the Amarr and Caldari Frames along with an Increase to the efficacy of Nanite Injectors. The Caldari and Amarr suits could both have Sidearms (at the cost of 1 reduced equipment). This gives the flavor of Gallente and Minmatar of being Support Logi, while the Amarr and Caldari are Frontline Logi Each of the Racial suits could then get an increase to their Racial Equipment (Similar to how it is now): Amarr: Bonus to Spawn beacon Spawn amount and spawn time -- I like this bonus as it allows my squad (and others) to quickly form up behind an enemy captured point...at least when it's working it does...anyone know exactly why it derps out sometimes? An addition to this bonus could also be an increase in the number of active beacons allowed (as a role bonus, not as a per level) Caldari: Bonus to Nano-Hives...but change it to include Nano-Hives Carried (as a role bonus, not a per level) -- The current state of this bonus is fairly underwhelming, as the nanohives can be depleted quickly by grenade spamming allies, but I love the concept, and am always thankful for someone hauling around ammo for my squadmates' thirst bullet hoses. Minmatar: Bonus to Remote Explosives (Proxy Mines Specifically) -- Since, in the above proposal, the Minmatar bonus would be effectively given to all the frames (even in part), a new bonus focusing on a Minmatar racial equipment is needed. While Remote Explosives (and Proxy Mines) are by no means underused, Proxy mines in particular are only effective when used en-masse to block a specific point on the road, and a buff to them that either made them more effective against vehicles, or even detonate against infantry (based on suit scan profile) would be interesting. My idea to make them have an offensive equipment bonus is based on their racial EWARs space-side: Target Painters, with a few hulls getting a bonus to Stasis Webifiers Gallente: Keep the bonus to Active Scanners -- This bonus at first seems underwhelming (Like the Caldari Nano-Hives) but the power to scan down profile dampened scout suits, and see enemy positions from afar is extremely useful (not to mention, the intel assistance points are quite a nice bonus). This is just my .02 ISK worth...as many other ideas have been suggested regarding the logistics suit durability and equipment usage, my suggestion is more regarding making all the logistics frames viable and in-tune with what I know of the racial flavors from my (albeit Limited) space-side experience. As for equipment changes, a proximity based self-destruct on Spawn Beacons would be a godsend, especially in those ambush matches Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
hfderrtgvcd Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 325	Posted - 2014.08.23 08:32:00 - [284] - Quote not sure if this has already been mentioned but could you please request ccp to return the golden glow around your screen when you are being repaired.
RKKR The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1010	Posted - 2014.08.23 08:43:00 - [285] - Quote The problem with this eHP-buff or eWar/stamina-buff discussion for logi-suits is that there are different playstyles. A logi that focusses on repping heavies wants (needs?) that eHP. A logi who focusses on the perimeter wants that eWar/stamina. Cass Caul wrote: To the logis that don't brink tank, could you use www.protofits.com to show how you set up your Logi suits? A fit I'm having fun and experimenting with: ADV callogi: 2 Shield EXT 1 Precision enhancer 2 range amps Equipment: uplink, triage hive, ammo hive (all ADV) I try to stay far away from the enemy and in cover, using the range amps to position myself in a good spot. Picking of my targets one by one if feasible. Problem: this alone doesn't work if the game 'smartspawn you in a blob right in front of the enemy' I usually run off away from my team and try to flank an enemy while putting an uplink down to repeat. Problem: Tried running long distances with a logi suit? They are supposed to be kings of equipment yet a scout and assault suit are a better idea for running and dropping down that link to suprise the enemy. If some blueberry is smart enough to spawn on my uplink instead of the spawnfarm blob and not foolishly rush the enemy, I can support him with my hives. Problem: those hives are used up in an eyeblink, I'm now officially a handicapped scout. And that's the biggest problem, the above ones could be fixed by running with a squad, so someone can do the scanning so I could use speedmods,... (But how do we promote that kind of teamwork? More WP for actions and how to implement those?) but I will always be a handicapped version of an assault/scout with limited equipment. Problem: I'm too stuborn to want keep using logi suits , why shouldn't I use a high eHP logi with a reptool? Atleast that way you could be usefull the entire time.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 217	Posted - 2014.08.23 09:59:00 - [286] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: To the logis that don't brink tank, could you use www.protofits.com to show how you set up your Logi suits? Minmatar logi M/1 2 x Complex Shield Extender 1 x Enhanced Shield Extender 1 x Enhanced KinCat 1 x Enhanced Ferroscale 1 x Enhanced Armour Repairer Basic Combat Rifle Basic Flux 6 Kin Triage Tool Wyrkomi Nanite Injector Drop Uplink/X-3 Nanohive 313 shield 242 armour 6.25 HP/S reps 5 m/s movement speed 7.97 m/s sprint speed I'm very sure I could tank it out more but I try and balance between the best equipment I can fit and half decent mobility. At the moment I have used my proto scout more than my logi ( although I haven't had much time to play recently ) I can drop links in secure/safeish locations, derp redberry links and stragglers, hack, support and hold a point for a while. The scout gives me better options. Ok I have less HP but I have e war and 2 slots for equipment versatility. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 431	Posted - 2014.08.23 18:30:00 - [287] - Quote I almost forgot one of the most important things that needs addressing: Advanced Gallente and Caldari logis only have 5 module slots. That's now less than their assault counterpart. So they have less slots, much less HP, they're slower, have less stamina, and have no sidearm. 2 more equipment and equipment bonus is not enough to make up the difference. These logis need an extra slot--Gallente low, Caldari high of course--on top of increased EHP.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2954	Posted - 2014.08.23 18:34:00 - [288] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: deflecting from the point Nice deflection. Why not try actually showing what you run. . Oh, sorry, I forgot to bite. I was worried it might leave a bitter taste in my mouth. http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/7063
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2790	Posted - 2014.08.23 18:39:00 - [289] - Quote Who can tell me the specifics of how protofits calculates eHP? I see that term miss-defined or loosely defined quite a lot and it can be accurately used to mean/contain many things, what is the site using in this case? See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2954	Posted - 2014.08.23 18:48:00 - [290] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Who can tell me the specifics of how protofits calculates eHP? I see that term miss-defined or loosely defined quite a lot and it can be accurately used to mean/contain many things, what is the site using in this case? It doesn't take into account and sort of resistances or include the effective benefit of regen. It just takes all the + and - from skills, modules, and effects and calculates the final HP for shields and armor, and then adds them together. Its more like Total HP than anything else. Also note that on weapon damage calcs, it assumes damage against the weapon's preferred defense, that is that it will add +15% for proficiency, assuming that you're attacking shields (for EM and Thermal) or armor (for Kinetic, Rail, and Explosive).

P14GU3 Merc-0107 857	Posted - 2014.08.23 23:37:00 - [291] - Quote Been around since closed beta. Played mostly logi support since open beta. I have dabbled in every other class at some point. My main fits are adv amarr and gallente logi with all proto equipment (trying to keep costs down.) I know I am repeating a lot of what has been said, but Cross wants as close to a full representation as possible. The issues with logi suits themselves. 1. Too slow. Base speed and stamina need increased. 2. Not enough survivability. Need more regen NOT base HP. 3. Too limited in scope to be a true support role. All logis need medic bonuses ie. rep tools and needles. This is their main role. 4. Too noticeable on the field. All logis are bright yellow. Everyone knows to shoot the logi first. The bright yellow suit ensures that logis die first. This is partly why scouts are better for logi work now. Reason number 3 doesn't help that fact much either. Equipment issues Scanners. These are practically pointless to run. I have a full proto gal logi with proto scanners. When used, i rarely get points, or even light anyone up because everyone is running unscannable damped scouts. They just simply aren't strong enough, and even when they are, they have a long cooldown with a very short light up time. Uplinks. These are probably the most useful peice of equipment. I collect massive amounts of warpoints with very little effort on my amarr logi. Longer spawn in times with more bonuses for logis may help a bit with spam and also needle use. Needles. Another useful peice of equipment (some will disagree) i run usually proto but will sometimes drop to advanced for fitting or isk cost. The issue with these are they are extremely buggy. Phantom revives, later needle pricks picking people up instead of the intial prick, no revive option, ect. Hives. The repair hives are extremely effective, maybe too effective. The normal ones seem to be fine as is. Rep tools. The most important tool for any logi IMO. Most logis will use this more than any other piece of eq. Too short of range, too little repaired to both infantry and vehicles. Errors are common when trying to lock in a large group. RE. I dont know too many logis who use these as a stable part of their support. This seems to be more of a scout role as they have the ewar to see and not be seen, which is important with the use of REs. Placement times are still too fast and the throwing distance is still too far. Other than that they seem to be fine. I only play dust514ums now. It was always more fun than the actual game anyways.
Kaze Eyrou Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 505	Posted - 2014.08.24 18:49:00 - [292] - Quote Logi mk.0 (also have the ak.0 but I don't use it unless uplink spam). Basic Shield Energizer Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Complex Armor Repair Basic Armor Plate Enhanced Armor Plate Enhanced Armor Plate Boundless Combat Rifle (used to use Six Kin but I found that there's more total damage potential. Still partial to that Six Kin ACR) C-7 Flux Grenade Wyrkomi Nanite Injector Six Kin Triage Repair Tool Ishukone Gauged Nanohive Creodron Flux Active Scanner Alright here we go.... MOBILITY I believe logis need more mobility but I don't think that should come from movement speed or sprint speed. I believe a slight stamina increase with a slight increase to stamina recovery should do it. This way, the Assault class still maintains the ability to run faster than the Logi, but the Logi will be able to keep up over the long haul. HEALTH I don't believe the Logi's need a health increase (memories of the Slayer Logi era comes back) however, I'm not sure about the stats that the Logis had before. If that was reverted, then Logis would get a "buff" of sorts to health, but I think it would be more of a "reverse-nerf"? I guess I'm still mixed on this. NEEDLES I carry a needle on all my "LogiBro" suits. Fixing the bug of "false positives" would be nice. I would like to see the "downed" icon of squadmates to green. Also, I think the Kaalakiota Needle would be much more desirable if it picked you up for 100% armor AND shields. But that may be OP and it doesn't quite fit the lore either (nanites giving shields? They only do hull and armor). SCANNERS I'm going to disagree with P14GU3 because for me, active scanners are one of the most efficient tools for spotting the enemy. For instance I scan in the direction of a friendly CRU to see if the enemy is flanking. I get back "Some Margin of Error". I report to my team and start heading that way, looking for shimmer and for the CRU to be hacked. Sure I don't get a chevron over their head, but even if they are cloaked and dampened, I know they are there somewhere. UPLINKS Extremely powerful. Part of me wants to nerf the hell out of these and make it where they are only active if you carry them. And when you die or switch suits they pop. Yeah. I don't think everyone will stop me on this point. Also I like uplink spamming and uplink hunting too. I will say it was a good decision to change the uplink times. NANOHIVES Good as they are. I miss their 72 clusters they used to have though. I do think they need to not resupply grenades; maybe have a seperate nanohive to do that? But then again I use Flux nades to take out REs and equipment and like when I can restock with nanohives. Sigh. Most of the stuff I say I feel like I'm nerfing. REPAIR TOOLS I think they are fine as they are. Sure there's issues with locking but that's game functionality related, not actually the rep tool itself. REMOTE EXPLOSIVES I don't care about scouts throwing them or even that they are sticky... but could we get an arming timer for them like we used to have? PROXIMITY EXPLOSIVES Anyone remember the Onikuma BPO and the Murder Taxi era? Guess what I skilled into to counter that. My biggest complaint is that we are unable to throw down the maxmium amount of Proxies. We only carry 3 Std, 3, Adv, and 4 Pro, when we can have 4 Std, 5 Adv, and 6 Pro active. On top of that, they only do 750 damage and while LAVs are lit up like fireworks, tanks drive over them with no problem (admittedly, only some of the time). On top of that when laying out Proxies, we are extremely vulnerable, and once they are spotted, can easily be blown up by the enemy. Oh and in Friendly Fire environments, make it so the owner of the damage is either null or the proximity mine itself if that's possible. I want to help my team by using proxies but I can't do that if I'm going to get kicked from Faction Warfare because half brain-dead blueberry decides to shoot my proxies. Or blow them up somehow. Whatever the f*** he did. So yeah, to sum up: would like Proxies carried to match active. Code the system where it checks incoming damage to prevent incorrect determination of so called "friendly fire" with Proxies. Closed Beta Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1008	Posted - 2014.08.25 01:23:00 - [293] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Equipment doesn't need more HP Proto equipment just needs a lower profile. Let's reward PLACEMENT rather than spamming in open areas. By hiding your uplink well, it won't show up on scans or passives as long as you're using the best of the best...that's what I want. So,something the size of a mercs PALM. Doing 600 damage is ok... But something the size of your mercs WHOLE UPPER TORSO,being able to take that kind of damage isn't? Even taking into consideration nanos are supposed to be THE MOST ADVANCED piece of equipment on the battlefield? And people wonder why i'm so arguemenative. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1008	Posted - 2014.08.25 02:19:00 - [294] - Quote http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/7113 As for a lolweapon... I focus on support not kills,so i swap as i get bored. I've recently been running the flaylock. I can make due with low eHP,but it's the speed and regen that gets me. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 280	Posted - 2014.08.25 04:03:00 - [295] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: oh, first, MinLogi since open beta, primarily PC last couple months tho the last couple weeks have been quiet-ish. Okay, a couple things to help the logistics class as a whole- 1. The infamous Sprint Glitch has to get fixed... 2. Scouts need to lose that second equipment slot... 3. Logistics class should be a level 5 Dropsuit Command unlock... 4-? We need movement buffs, walking and rotation speed. Something HP/regen side... But, I want to actually play in Charlie before requesting too much after 1-3. Yup, this is where I'm at, from what I've seen of Charlie. I think #4 really is the key, after the previous 3 being addressed, to closing the balance between the frames. Simple movement buffs, to walking and rotation speeds with regen buffs on the limited side for straight hp (maybe 50-70 pts spread shield/armor based on race lore) but very dynamic on the regen delay side, prompting limited tanking with short delay accomodating cover to cover movement and limited (though substantially better than now) sustainability through the sort of massive barrages supported squads attract. Suits that don't currently enjoy inherent reps maybe still get a bonus (perhaps even the fastest of the bonuses) to delay but obviously need to equip the appropriate module to use it. Additionally, buffs could be tangible through -lowering our inherent profile base below assault base, sp investments into prec/damp will make detection/stealth possible between them -redefining the individual equipment values, carried/deployed etc. as others have suggested -redefining the individual equipment/racial bonuses as others have suggested -redefining the logis hitbox as others have suggested. -recoloring the frame, again, as others have suggested (I like plaid) -fitting/pricing of individual equipment redefining, as others have suggested Any/all of these or adjustments along these lines would be good I think. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 371	Posted - 2014.08.25 04:09:00 - [296] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: oh, first, MinLogi since open beta, primarily PC last couple months tho the last couple weeks have been quiet-ish. Okay, a couple things too help the logistics class as a whole- 1. The infamous Sprint Glitch has to get fixed... 2. Scouts need to lose that second equipment slot... 3. Logistics class should be a level 5 Dropsuit Command unlock... 4-? We need movement buffs, walking and rotation speed. Something HP/regen side... But, I want to actually play in Charlie before requesting too much after 1-3. Yup, this is where I'm at, from what I've seen of Charlie. I think #4 really is the key, after the previous 3 being addressed, to closing the balance between the frames. Simple movement buffs, to walking and rotation speeds with regen buffs on the limited side for straight hp (maybe 50-70 pts spread shield/armor based on race lore) but very dynamic on the regen delay side, prompting limited tanking with short delay accomodating cover to cover movement and limited (though substantially better than now) sustainability through the sort of massive barrages supported squads attract. Suits that don't currently enjoy inherent reps maybe still get a bonus (perhaps even the fastest of the bonuses) to delay but obviously need to equip the appropriate module to use it. Additionally, buffs could be tangible through -lowering our inherent profile base below assault base, sp investments into prec/damp will make detection/stealth possible between them -redefining the individual equipment values, carried/deployed etc. as others have suggested -redefining the individual equipment/racial bonuses as others have suggested -redefining the logis hitbox as others have suggested. -recoloring the frame, again, as others have suggested (I like plaid) -fitting/pricing of individual equipment redefining, as others have suggested Any/all of these or adjustments along these lines would be good I think. I like all points made, except recolouring the frame to plaid... I'd prefer paisley. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 166	Posted - 2014.08.25 14:45:00 - [297] - Quote Yup, because I don't like scouts acting like logis, so please, turn my logi into a scout. Brilliant. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 218	Posted - 2014.08.25 15:09:00 - [298] - Quote Ok so there have been a few ideas thrown about on how to make logi's better from More HP to resistances. So I had an idea that may work but I'm not sure whether it's possible to do within the Hotfix only phase we are running. Anyway, to aid survivability how about when a logi is acitively repping a target he gets a "feedback" armour rep. Nothing stupidly OP, maybe 1 or 2 HP/s max AND only when the rep tool is active on a target. It's not enough to save a logi from alpha damage or prolonged/sustained fire but a little extra to encourage a logi to use the rep tool. Of course it may be a crap idea but trying to think of something other than HP buff etc Also I'm not sure if this has been suggested before and sorry if I have stolen someone else's idea Idea is now open to feedback, pull it to bits, discuss or whatever. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 166	Posted - 2014.08.25 16:53:00 - [299] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Ok so there have been a few ideas thrown about on how to make logi's better from More HP to resistances. So I had an idea that may work but I'm not sure whether it's possible to do within the Hotfix only phase we are running. Anyway, to aid survivability how about when a logi is acitively repping a target he gets a "feedback" armour rep. Nothing stupidly OP, maybe 1 or 2 HP/s max AND only when the rep tool is active on a target. It's not enough to save a logi from alpha damage or prolonged/sustained fire but a little extra to encourage a logi to use the rep tool. Of course it may be a crap idea but trying to think of something other than HP buff etc Also I'm not sure if this has been suggested before and sorry if I have stolen someone else's idea Idea is now open to feedback, pull it to bits, discuss or whatever. I like this to an extent, but as I said before, it will kill diversity of logi suits so only armor tanked suits would see any benefit. So keep the idea of recieving a bonus while actively repping, just make the bonus a small damage resistance to all forms of damage for shields and armor. However I think either of our versions would be difficult with only server side. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1010	Posted - 2014.08.25 17:31:00 - [300] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Yup, because I don't like scouts acting like logis, so please, turn my logi into a scout. Brilliant! FTFY. But seriously,what else is there? TBH i believe assaults got the wrong kind of buff (eHP). All the assault suit descriptions say they should have damage resistance. If assaults get eHP,all that's left is speed and regen. If we straight up copy assaults nothing will have improved. By making logistics more scout-like focusing on evasion and stealth it leaves open combat for the combat oriented suits,while logistics can (like scouts) work in the shadows. So,durable suits such as heavies and assaults can't hide. But frail suits like logistics and scouts can and escape.(non brick scouts that is) From personal experience i can say i've survived 10x longer when i ran to regroup as when i tried to fight. Unfortunately being slower with less eHP,and being easy to hit doesn't help with those times. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.

Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1011	Posted - 2014.08.25 17:34:00 - [301] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Ok so there have been a few ideas thrown about on how to make logi's better from More HP to resistances. So I had an idea that may work but I'm not sure whether it's possible to do within the Hotfix only phase we are running. Anyway, to aid survivability how about when a logi is acitively repping a target he gets a "feedback" armour rep. Nothing stupidly OP, maybe 1 or 2 HP/s max AND only when the rep tool is active on a target. It's not enough to save a logi from alpha damage or prolonged/sustained fire but a little extra to encourage a logi to use the rep tool. Of course it may be a crap idea but trying to think of something other than HP buff etc Also I'm not sure if this has been suggested before and sorry if I have stolen someone else's idea Idea is now open to feedback, pull it to bits, discuss or whatever. I like this to an extent, but as I said before, it will kill diversity of logi suits so only armor tanked suits would see any benefit. So keep the idea of recieving a bonus while actively repping, just make the bonus a small damage resistance to all forms of damage for shields and armor. However I think either of our versions would be difficult with only server side. Straight up 15% damage resistance for logistics using a rep tool,i like it! Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 280	Posted - 2014.08.25 17:52:00 - [302] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Yup, because I don't like scouts acting like slayerlogis, so please, tweak my logis base stats into something in-between an assault and a scout, since we're expected to competitively interact with both.~~Brilliant~~. Basic. EZ. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2961	Posted - 2014.08.25 18:08:00 - [303] - Quote Meee One wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Ok so there have been a few ideas thrown about on how to make logi's better from More HP to resistances. So I had an idea that may work but I'm not sure whether it's possible to do within the Hotfix only phase we are running. Anyway, to aid survivability how about when a logi is acitively repping a target he gets a "feedback" armour rep. Nothing stupidly OP, maybe 1 or 2 HP/s max AND only when the rep tool is active on a target. It's not enough to save a logi from alpha damage or prolonged/sustained fire but a little extra to encourage a logi to use the rep tool. Of course it may be a crap idea but trying to think of something other than HP buff etc Also I'm not sure if this has been suggested before and sorry if I have stolen someone else's idea Idea is now open to feedback, pull it to bits, discuss or whatever. I like this to an extent, but as I said before, it will kill diversity of logi suits so only armor tanked suits would see any benefit. So keep the idea of recieving a bonus while actively repping, just make the bonus a small damage resistance to all forms of damage for shields and armor. However I think either of our versions would be difficult with only server side. Straight up 15% damage resistance for logistics using a rep tool,i like it! Unfortunately I don't think that's possible via hotfix since that's a behavior that currently doesn't exist on the rep tool, and trying to Frankenstein it over from Vehicle Hardeners may be too much.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 280	Posted - 2014.08.25 18:17:00 - [304] - Quote Meee One wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Yup, because I don't like scouts acting like logis, so please, turn my logi into a scout. Brilliant! FTFY. But seriously,what else is there? TBH i believe assaults got the wrong kind of buff (eHP). All the assault suit descriptions say they should have damage resistance. If assaults get eHP,all that's left is speed and regen. If we straight up copy assaults nothing will have improved. By making logistics more scout-like focusing on evasion and stealth it leaves open combat for the combat oriented suits,while logistics can (like scouts) work in the shadows. So,durable suits such as heavies and assaults can't hide. But frail suits like logistics and scouts can and escape.(non brick scouts that is) From personal experience i can say i've survived 10x longer when i ran to regroup as when i tried to fight. Unfortunately being slower with less eHP,and being easy to hit doesn't help with those times. Yeeeeup. We go outside of these parameters we start "weaponizing" logis and the whole slayerlogi crap swings back to the forefront. After that theres really just the more esoteric stuff like.....RDV priority when calling vehicles or maybe quickspawn bonusing or maybe bonuses to nanite speed from hives so we rep/resupply from them faster. All things that aren't really "logi" oriented and would be (justifiably in some cases) easily claimed by other roles. How much QQ was there for us having the cloak equip bonus because, "the cloak is for scouts". Nevermind the beauty in having your heavy get dropped, activating the cloak, being passed by the assaulting squad, reviving that heavy and reaming that group out. We don't need a ton of work, just contemporizing. A couple of effective glitch/imbalance fixes are almost buffs for us. After those, actual buffs to our movement speeds, a little (real small amount) extra hp, and reallowing us regen and I think we'd be there. Or we can start discussing the merits of giving us all our sidearms back and bonusing us for REs. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1600	Posted - 2014.08.25 18:37:00 - [305] - Quote logis can never be fixed not when any amount of ehp buff or slot changes will only effect their slayer attributes and not their ability to support. when i am a support player on the battlefield i know i am the weakest target on the field yet probably the most expensive so a prime target for any other player no matter what fit they are in. alternatively i can reduce my support abilities to become a bit less squishy but then i become a slayer logi and then i am fueling the slayer logi argument. im my eyes all classes should be combat first then their role. this way slayer arguments are void because we are all slayers. our roles would divide us all on how we take up our role. specific combat orientated classes become better killers through their roles and support classes do not need to forgo their role in order to compete and survive. some of my previous ideas on how to address the support issue https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=123577&find=unread https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2235572#post2235572 All Hail Legion
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 166	Posted - 2014.08.25 19:17:00 - [306] - Quote Ok, we now have four groups. 1) Make logis scouts. (We already have scouts in this game thank you.) 2) Make logis heavies. (Again, we have those, but I like it better since it fits my playstyle since I live 20-30 meters behind the front lines or depending on the situation, on the frontlines) 3) Change the equipment and/or the bonuses (getting closer, since now we are focusing on what should make a logi unique on the battle field) 4) Keep the logis in their place and nerf them further. Slayer logi, never again. (Unless Rattati and the CPMs that still play the game have all recently drunk the lead filled kool aid then slayer logis will never happen again, so stop bitching about it.) Everything parentheses is obviously opinion. Keep tossing out ideas but make sure logis wind up unique and not just(insert class) light. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 281	Posted - 2014.08.25 21:47:00 - [307] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Ok, we now have four groups. 1) Make logis scouts. (We already have scouts in this game thank you.) 2) Make logis heavies. (Again, we have those, but I like it better since it fits my playstyle since I live 20-30 meters behind the front lines or depending on the situation, on the frontlines) 3) Change the equipment and/or the bonuses (getting closer, since now we are focusing on what should make a logi unique on the battle field) 4) Keep the logis in their place and nerf them further. Slayer logi, never again. (Unless Rattati and the CPMs that still play the game have all recently drunk the lead filled kool aid then slayer logis will never happen again, so stop bitching about it.) Everything parentheses is obviously opinion. Keep tossing out ideas but make sure logis wind up unique and not just(insert class) light. Notice I said "CPMs that still play the game" I would like to propose that CPMs that have logged less than 5 hours in the past 3 months get their tags removed or at least have their vote taken away until they are back up to speed and know the current situation of the game. Side note I know. Where is #1 being generated from? My suggestions? Because we have plenty of leeway to adjust our movement/regen base without cramping onto scouts, just like their having 1 equipment doesnt cramp logi'ing but having 2 does. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Zindorak 1.U.P 674	Posted - 2014.08.25 22:57:00 - [308] - Quote Making it so that you dont need to be in Cal/Am Logi for the bonus as they have been tainted with the essence of that logi Pokemon master! CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 166	Posted - 2014.08.25 23:39:00 - [309] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Where is #1 being generated from? My suggestions? Because we have plenty of leeway to adjust our movement/regen base without cramping onto scouts, just like their having 1 equipment doesnt cramp logi'ing but having 2 does. Where I am getting #1 is reductio ad absurdum of your comments yeah, however I could be down for logis being a bit better at e-war and have some more speed, but for the most part the suit itself is fine (cal could use a slight shield buff maybe), though it's the equipment and bonuses that will set logis apart, otherwise we are only homogenizing the classes. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 281	Posted - 2014.08.26 00:04:00 - [310] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Where is #1 being generated from? My suggestions? Because we have plenty of leeway to adjust our movement/regen base without cramping onto scouts, just like their having 1 equipment doesnt cramp logi'ing but having 2 does. Where I am getting #1 is reductio ad absurdum of your comments yeah, however I could be down for logis being a bit better at e-war and have some more speed, but for the most part the suit itself is fine (cal could use a slight shield buff maybe), though it's the equipment and bonuses that will set logis apart, otherwise we are only homogenizing the classes. Reductio ad absurdum, indeed. Lets not get lost in semantics, hm? The (logi)suits are real close to being just right. We need to be faster, universally. We need to be capable of absorbing, for a period of time, the conditions we are most often in. And we need to be unique enough that while other suits may be able to emulate some of what we do, NONE is able to replicate, let alone be BETTER than us at what we do. We have to rely on squad support, and we return their support with OUR support. But whats the point in supporting us if a) we're a liability under the circumstances or b) some other suit just outperforms us at our roles? Base buffs should plant us right between current scouts and assaults. Not quite as fast, not quite as tanky and definitely not bonused to weapons but competitive within the bracket, and competitive on the field. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Skullmiser Vulcansu 144	Posted - 2014.08.26 01:45:00 - [311] - Quote I use prototype Amarr Logistics suits. I am happy with Repair Tools, Nanite injectors, and Drop Uplinks as they are. Remote explosives could do with an increase in damage with tier. I think my AV grenades are lacking in power, as others have said, but I'm not sure that's a Logistics issue. I am dissatisfied with the Nanohives' cluster reserves. They are exhausted much too quickly now. I often drop an Alloteck Nanohive at a group of friendly units, and It disappears immediately. I don't think that I should have to play as a Caldari for their reserves to be increased just a bit. I think that Logistics suits should have their scanning precision enhanced to keep up with the light suits since 1.8. Before that update, scouts had 45 precision and profile. Now Logistics is the same, but scouts have 40 and 35 scanning precision and profile respectively. I would like it if Logistics suits had a scanning precision of 40db. I'm not too bothered by how slow my suit is. I just avoid using armor plates that restrict me more than 4%. Otherwise, I can't jump over most railings, and the armor becomes a liability. I've always preferred shields for this reason, and usually just have a reactive plate or something for armor repairs. I usually have a profile dampener so that people are more likely to leave me alone, and sometimes a PG enhancement module for my still-exhausted PG. I used to use a Laser Rifle, and a Scrambler Pistol, and it was wonderful, but since 1.8, the Scrambler Pistol fires too slowly to be useful to me in close quarters combat against any rifle. Now I use a Scrambler Rifle, and either a Scrambler Pistol or Knives. The scrambler rifle is swell, but It's hard to fit with the reduced PG for Amarr. The sidearm slot is no longer worth the PG reduction. I don't feel like I have issues with my survivability as long as I'm not taken unawares. The precision would help with that. I do think that my Logistics suits are too expensive for what they offer. I can get similar amounts of points with scout suits that are very cheap. I've been using logistics suits less and less, even though it's the only prototype suit I have. If this game was fun, I wouldn't be playing it.
Rusty Shallows Caldari State 2021	Posted - 2014.08.26 02:02:00 - [312] - Quote In answer to Post #1 Classic Logi Bro alternating with a Combat Engineer fit on Minmatar after Logistics No suggestions to equipment Effectiveness when measured in a support role can be tricky. My biggest concern is the aforementioned concerns others already shared about survivability. I don't think it has any bearing with the following but the instructions were pretty clear. My two cents on this is after whatever changes are purposed a Smell Test is conducted. A review. Start with a theoretical character with perfect fives in all skills. Select the same Faction's Assault and Logistics Frame of each tier. Fit them the same way with two exceptions: Assault still has a Side Arm and the Logistics with only one Equipment. Side-by-side compare the stat lines in a series of Thought Experiments. While the basics of damage, tanking, and mobility are easier to compare some serious attention needs to be applied the value of the "other" values (sensory stats, regen stats, stanima stats, etc). The game fundamentals have changed a lot with bonuses and weapons since the days of there being only one Assault, Logistics, Scout, and Heavy. It's past time to review these differences and how they balance-out/relate. TL;DR After doing complex changes unto a Logistic pause to do a comparison review against an equivalent Assault. I have a lot of respect for Classic Logis. New Eden could use more Healers. Forums > Game: Biggest understatement ever
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1021	Posted - 2014.08.26 04:38:00 - [313] - Quote OK, let's revisit the concept of 'all logistics suits are better with equipment but racial equipment works better with racial suits'. Currently, the racial bonuses are: Role Bonus: 5% reduction to PG/CPU cost of equipment Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive max. nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +5% to active scanner precision per level. Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to max. spawn count per level. Seems to me that each race could have one of the two bonuses shared between all logistics suits, and the other one kept specific to that race (e.g. Minmatar logistics would keep the +5% repair amount but all logi suits would get +10%/level to repair range). Thoughts? Dust/Eve transfers
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4685	Posted - 2014.08.26 06:17:00 - [314] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Seems to me that each race could have one of the two bonuses shared between all logistics suits, and the other one kept specific to that race (e.g. Minmatar logistics would keep the +5% repair amount but all logi suits would get +10%/level to repair range). Thoughts? I'd still rather have racially themed bonuses for equipment. Caldari: Bonuses to range or area effect Minmatar: Bonuses to speed and recharge Amarr: Bonuses to duration and amount carried etc I don't know if we can give a bonus to EVERY equipment, but I would like to see at least 3 bonuses per dropsuit. For instance, Caldari would get longer range for repair tool, longer range for scanner, and bigger nanohive radius. Don't know about the other races, but effectively something along the lines of this. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3910	Posted - 2014.08.26 12:09:00 - [315] - Quote Zindorak wrote: Making it so that you dont need to be in Cal/Am Logi for the bonus as they have been tainted with the essence of that logi Bad idea. Then you just turn these suits into temporary spam fits. Get ready for entire teams of Amarr logis carpet bombing the map with uplinks for the first 2 minutes of the match, and then disappearing at the supply depot, never to be seen again. I-Shayz-I wrote: I'd still rather have racially themed bonuses for equipment. Here's my ideas for the other races (in no particular order) Minmatar (speed) -Reduced spawn time for uplinks -Faster recharge for scanners -Increased repair rate for repair tools Amarr (endurance) -Increased nanite capacity for nanohives -Increased visible duration for scanners -Increased spawn count for uplinks Caldari (ranged support) -Increased range for repair tools -Longer range for scanners -Larger raidus for nanohives Gallente (direct support) -Lower precision for Scanners -Increased resupply/repair rate for Nanohives -Increased repair rate for repair tools _______________________________________________________ I decided to give two races the repair tool bonus as there's only two ways you can increase the effectiveness of the repair tool. Uplinks are the same way, but between the two I'm guessing Gallente logistics would rather have the repair tool bonus to match their bonus to repair rate of nanohives. I like that, conceptually, a lot. Oh, wait.. not hotfixable slams forehead into table. Maybe for legion 1.8, not Dust. As a major proponent of the "every logi should be good with every type of equipment" method, I think making it racially themed could be great way to satisfy those who worry about the suits getting homogenized. But, once again you run into the problem of fighting over the bonuses, specifically rep tools. Why does every race, except the Amarr, get some type of bonus to it? Even the Caldari do, under your proposal. (And then you take away the best part of the existing bonus, to boot. The Minmatar get the fast spawns now? I just threw up in my mouth a little.) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4685	Posted - 2014.08.26 12:21:00 - [316] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: I'd still rather have racially themed bonuses for equipment. I like that, conceptually, a lot. Oh, wait.. not hotfixable slams forehead into table. (And then you take away the best part of the existing bonus, to boot. The Minmatar get the fast spawns now? I just threw up in my mouth a little.) Wait, how is it not hotfixable? I thought we just changed around the scout bonuses...how is this not any different? Minmatar could get faster resupply/repair rate for nanohives instead of the gallente, but I have no idea what to give the gallente for the third bonus. But where do you put the uplink bonus? Reduced spawn time doesn't fit with Amarr at all, and the gallente might be okay with it, but it doesn't make much sense for this "racial theme". The bonus could also be reduced because it's with the minmatar, while the bonus to uplink spawn count could be increased for the Amarr. I'd rather have these sort of bonuses applied to the skills, or a separate skill (like proficiency), but THAT is the kind of thing that would be better for Legion and isn't at all possible for a hotfix. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1015	Posted - 2014.08.26 14:23:00 - [317] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Ok, we now have four groups. 1) Make logis more like scouts. (We already have scouts in this game thank you.) 2) Make logis heavies. (Again, we have those, but I like it better since it fits my playstyle since I live 20-30 meters behind the front lines or depending on the situation, on the frontlines) 3) Change the equipment and/or the bonuses (getting closer, since now we are focusing on what should make a logi unique on the battle field) 4) Keep the logis in their place and nerf them further. Slayer logi, never again. (Unless Rattati and the CPMs that still play the game have all recently drunk the lead filled kool aid then slayer logis will never happen again, so stop bitching about it.) Everything parentheses is obviously opinion. Keep tossing out ideas but make sure logis wind up unique and not just(insert class) light. Notice I said "CPMs that still play the game" I would like to propose that CPMs that have logged less than 5 hours in the past 3 months get their tags removed or at least have their vote taken away until they are back up to speed and know the current situation of the game. Side note I know. About #4... I'd like to remind all posters,in the initial post about 'charlie'... CCP actually intended to nerf logistics speed (with the same 30 eHP from their racial scout) and buff assaults speed (even though more tank should mean less speed),and remove the Amarr logistics sidearm (even though they have 1 less module slot). So, IMHO i believe CCP is completely drunk on the "killer bee kool-aid". CCP clearly put 0 thought into the nerf(s),and offered 0 buffs to compensate,which shows when it comes to the logistics class they have no problem destroying them,but major problems buffing them. I would feel better about the future of logistics if the Dev in charge of them didn't run assault. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1015	Posted - 2014.08.26 14:37:00 - [318] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Seems to me that each race could have one of the two bonuses shared between all logistics suits, and the other one kept specific to that race (e.g. Minmatar logistics would keep the +5% repair amount but all logi suits would get +10%/level to repair range). Thoughts? I'd still rather have racially themed bonuses for equipment. Caldari: Bonuses to range or area effect Minmatar: Bonuses to speed and recharge Amarr: Bonuses to duration and amount carried etc I don't know if we can give a bonus to EVERY equipment, but I would like to see at least 3 bonuses per dropsuit. For instance, Caldari would get longer range for repair tool, longer range for scanner, and bigger nanohive radius. Don't know about the other races, but effectively something along the lines of this. Edit: Here's my ideas for the other races (in no particular order) Minmatar (speed) -Reduced spawn time for uplinks -Faster recharge for scanners -Increased repair rate for repair tools -Increased amount refilled by nanos Amarr (endurance) -Increased nanite capacity for nanohives -Increased visible duration for scanners -Increased spawn count for uplinks -Small increase to rep tool range and rate Caldari (ranged support) -Increased range for repair tools -Longer range for scanners -Larger raidus for nanohives -More uplinks carried Gallente (direct support) -Lower precision for Scanners -Increased repair rate for Nanohives -Increased repair rate for repair tools -More uplinks deployed _______________________________________________________ I decided to give two races the repair tool bonus as there's only two ways you can increase the effectiveness of the repair tool. Uplinks are the same way, but between the two I'm guessing Gallente logistics would rather have the repair tool bonus to match their bonus to repair rate of nanohives. Those bonuses would tear the logistics class apart. It would be too complicated. Flat,but lesser bonuses would enable more freedom without being so unnecessarily restrictive. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 282	Posted - 2014.08.26 18:50:00 - [319] - Quote There may also be opportunity (tech allowing) to run logi bonuses through modules, versus explicitly via equipment. For example, and please don't get racial-lore crazy on me this is just for example: Amarr logis get a (nonstacking) speed bonus to armor plates which offsets the plating speed reduction, allowing up-armoring with making that slug an even slower slug. OR Caldari logis get a (nonstacking) shield extender bonus to offset cpu/pg cost I realize this is very similar to our regen buffing convo, but these could be module specific bonuses, as opposed to outright base stat buffing (which must happen), and could allow creation of real unique variants across the class without overemphasis on which race gets which equipment bonuses. Coupled together, bonusing this way will allow creation of some very strong fits that still accomodate diverse uses and lessens instances of very strong fits that are total one-trick ponies coughslugAmarrLogiuplinkspamcough Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 4394	Posted - 2014.08.26 18:58:00 - [320] - Quote I'd like to see a Allotek Nanohive version in the LP store that would take more than one flux to kill. Level 4 Forum Warrior Very, very bitter vet PSN: wbrom42

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 282	Posted - 2014.08.26 19:05:00 - [321] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I'd like to see a Allotek Nanohive version in the LP store that would take more than one flux to kill. I'd be down with that, it'd go in the collection of rad LP gear like 100%needles, 3 second links and 90hp/sec dual-beams. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1016	Posted - 2014.08.26 20:49:00 - [322] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I'd like to see a Allotek Nanohive version in the LP store that would take more than one flux to kill. Same clusters as Pro hives, but a slower refill rate? Sounds amarrian. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3910	Posted - 2014.08.26 20:53:00 - [323] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: I'd still rather have racially themed bonuses for equipment. I like that, conceptually, a lot. Oh, wait.. not hotfixable slams forehead into table. (And then you take away the best part of the existing bonus, to boot. The Minmatar get the fast spawns now? I just threw up in my mouth a little.) Wait, how is it not hotfixable? I thought we just changed around the scout bonuses...how is this not any different? Minmatar could get faster resupply/repair rate for nanohives instead of the gallente, but I have no idea what to give the gallente for the third bonus. But where do you put the uplink bonus? Reduced spawn time doesn't fit with Amarr at all, and the gallente might be okay with it, but it doesn't make much sense for this "racial theme". The bonus could also be reduced because it's with the minmatar, while the bonus to uplink spawn count could be increased for the Amarr. I'd rather have these sort of bonuses applied to the skills, or a separate skill (like proficiency), but THAT is the kind of thing that would be better for Legion and isn't at all possible for a hotfix. I guess I should be more specific. Moving around existing bonuses is obviously hot-fixable. Others, like the scanner cooldown time and nanohive radius, those bonuses currently don't exist that I'm aware of, so they may not be. I also don't see why faster spawns don't fit in with the Amarr "at all", and tbh increased spawn count is kinda weak, even my "sneaky" or fallback uplinks frequently either get taken out before they reach their max, or become obsolete and I place a new one elsewhere. I guess what it really boils down to is that while I very much like the idea of racial-themed bonuses to broaden out the utility of the logi suits without making them too alike, I still think it should be to every piece of equipment, otherwise someone gets short changed somewhere, and in your example I have an admittedly biased opinion that it's the Amarr. You've taken away the most powerful bonus the suit has, which is faster spawns, and given it to the Minmatar, which already has the most desirable bonus of all. And in return, the Amarr get what? Longer duration on scanners that can't pick anyone up because there's no precision bonus? The fastest spawns and the best rep tools? With your proposal you basically finish the job of making every logi suit but the Minmatar completely pointless and obsolete. Why not have each suit: 1) Keep it's existing bonus, that way you can't argue (as I just have) that any change nerfs a suit, because we are only adding bonuses, not taking them away or changing them. Everyone who skilled into the suit with that bonus in mind won't have to feel like they wasted their SP. 2) Give additional racially-themed bonuses that are clearly weaker than the existing ones, so there is no major overlap. You could do it a number of ways, but in general the way you split the bonuses in half is a solid method. I personally prefer that all 4 equipment types are included, not everyone may agree. Regardless, I really think everyone should get a reptool bonus of some kind, maybe similar to what you've already proposed but include the Amarr. Again, I think you are just inviting flame wars and respec threads if you don't. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Jack 3enimble Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 240	Posted - 2014.08.26 21:37:00 - [324] - Quote As a Cal logi (pro) I'm better off running repper hives, uplinks and a reptool for my team to farm WP and get an OB than running regular hives. Drop a proto nano hive (ammo only) people swarm to it and you're left with 50 points tops. That's 2 uplinks spawns or 2 triage ticks. On paper the bonus is great but there really isn't any reward to run nano hives (the ammo ones) if you take the ISK cost of them into consideration and how easily they're destroyed. Like I've stated before: It bugs the hell out of me is that my logi Ck.0 is so damn slow. I have to use a CPU mod since my suit was robbed of CPU and I carry proto equipment. In the other 3 lows I NEED to have a reactive plate, cardiac reg and a kincat so I can keep up with the heavy I'm repping. So for survivability I have to rely on my shield modules like a should. Problem is that because of the pg intensive cardiac modules to keep up with the heavies (who run kincats 9/10 times) in the first place I now have to sacrifice my main form of defense aswell. Recharge and main tank, because shields have high fitting costs aswell. for me as a shield user i'd like to see (this goes btw for all logis): - more speed - increase in WP from nano hives (ammo hives) - better regen - shield reptool So the Cal and Min sentinel can stand and deliver too. Don't bring up the regen of the Cal sentinel. Because a reptool on a armor sentinel gives that one a higher rep rate than the Cal and Min rep rate with recharger or energizer modules. There should be a reptool that reps armor slow maybe 15 hp/s and bypasses the shield recharge delay for shield sentinels to benefit from in combination with their modules. my 2 ISK
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1016	Posted - 2014.08.26 21:46:00 - [325] - Quote Jack 3enimble wrote: As a Cal logi (pro) I'm better off running repper hives, uplinks and a reptool for my team to farm WP and get an OB than running regular hives. Drop a proto nano hive (ammo only) people swarm to it and you're left with 50 points tops. That's 2 uplinks spawns or 2 triage ticks. On paper the bonus is great but there really isn't any reward to run nano hives (the ammo ones) if you take the ISK cost of them into consideration and how easily they're destroyed. Like I've stated before: It bugs the hell out of me is that my logi Ck.0 is so damn slow. I have to use a CPU mod since my suit was robbed of CPU and I carry proto equipment. In the other 3 lows I NEED to have a reactive plate, cardiac reg and a kincat so I can keep up with the heavy I'm repping. So for survivability I have to rely on my shield modules like a should. Problem is that because of the pg intensive cardiac modules to keep up with the heavies (who run kincats 9/10 times) in the first place I now have to sacrifice my main form of defense aswell. Recharge and main tank, because shields have high fitting costs aswell. for me as a shield user i'd like to see (this goes btw for all logis): - more speed - increase in WP from nano hives (ammo hives) - better regen - shield reptool So the Cal and Min sentinel can stand and deliver too. Don't bring up the regen of the Cal sentinel. Because a reptool on a armor sentinel gives that one a higher rep rate than the Cal and Min rep rate with recharger or energizer modules. There should be a reptool that reps armor slow maybe 15 hp/s and bypasses the shield recharge delay for shield sentinels to benefit from in combination with their modules. my 2 ISK +1 The shield rep tool could be caldari made,and Cal logistics could get bonuses to it. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 436	Posted - 2014.08.27 00:33:00 - [326] - Quote Now that installations are so important (for example on Ambush OMS bridge map) a proto Axis repair tool would fill a void and add a dynamic element to the game. This would have mediocre effect on infantry but would be excellent on vehicles and installations. It would enable teams to keep supply depots and key turrets alive when rail/missile turrets and forges are focused on them. Depending on how valuable the installation is, more reps could be put on it.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 371	Posted - 2014.08.27 03:15:00 - [327] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: (And then you take away the best part of the existing bonus, to boot. The Minmatar get the fast spawns now? I just threw up in my mouth a little.) Too much sacramental wine? Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 371	Posted - 2014.08.27 03:26:00 - [328] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: The fastest spawns and the best rep tools? With your proposal you basically finish the job of making every logi suit but the Minmatar completely pointless and obsolete. I'm good with this. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4694	Posted - 2014.08.27 04:21:00 - [329] - Quote Again, Those bonuses were just IDEAS, I never said that they were balanced by any means or that that's how it should be set up. I just think it would be cool to have each logi focused on one type of playstyle rather than every logi getting similar bonuses. Giving every suit a bonus to repair tools would be like giving every assault a reduction in heat buildup for the scrambler rifle, or every sentinel suit a reduction to projectile damage. Just because it's the most desired/useful bonus doesn't mean every suit should get it. That said, maybe the 3-4 bonuses to logistics should be something like this: -Current bonuses to equipment (possibly slightly reduced) -2 bonuses to other equipment aside from enemy's equipment Amarr could be: -Decreased spawn time for uplinks -Increased spawn count for uplinks -Increased nanite capacity for nanohives (not as much as Caldari) -Longer visible duration for scanners (not as much as Gallente -(No bonus to repair tools because Minmatar are enemies) Minmatar could be: -Faster repair rate for repair tools -Increased range for repair tools -Increased resupply/repair rate for nanohives (not as much as Caldari) -Faster recharge time for scanners -(No bonus to uplinks because Amarr are enemies) Caldari could be: -Increased resupply/repair rate for nanohives -Increased nanite capacity for nanohives -Increased range for repair tools (not as much as Minmatar) -Increased spawn count for uplinks (not as much as Amarr) -(No bonus to scanners because Gallente are enemies) Gallente could be: -Decreased precision for scanners -Increased visible duration for scanners -Increased repair rate for repair tools (not as much as Minmatar) -Decreased spawn time for uplinks (not as much as Amarr) -(No bonus to nanohives because Caldari are enemies) Opinions? I'd like to see your idea for what the bonuses should be (bonuses towards equipment efficacy though, nothing like more nanohives being able to be carried or deployed...those kinds of bonuses would not be easily balanced) _______________________________________________________________________________ Again, maybe this idea is crazy, I'd just like to see each suit have a defined playstyle rather than every logistics class be the same with different armor/shield values Yeah, repair tools are probably the most useful tool for DIRECT SUPPORT logistics, but why do the Amarr or Caldari need to be good at playing direct support? These should be the passive support classes and should get bonuses towards a passive playstyle. Not saying each race should be one or another (they all should be capable or doing anything), but there should be a clear reason/advantage for wanting to skill into one suit and not the other. As a final side note, YES these bonuses are hotfixable because they added a grenade cpu reduction to assaults without having it pre-existing. Hotfixable things are those dealing with numbers and pre-existing content. You don't need to make a "physical" asset in order to add a bonus to a skill, because in-game it's just a value. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3916	Posted - 2014.08.27 11:38:00 - [330] - Quote The idea is by no means crazy, I simply prefer doing it do that no piece of equipment is as good on another class of suit as it is on any logi suit. Splitting the bonuses in half for some racial flavor is a great way to do it. And I could be totally wrong about the hot fixes, but odd things (WP for needles, for example) often turn out to be harder to fix than even CCP thinks. A fitting reduction is also different than a bonus changing a fundamental property of a piece of equipment, like the radius of a a nanohive. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3916	Posted - 2014.08.27 11:39:00 - [331] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: The fastest spawns and the best rep tools? With your proposal you basically finish the job of making every logi suit but the Minmatar completely pointless and obsolete. I'm good with this. You don't want to know what I'm good with, matari. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1018	Posted - 2014.08.27 16:51:00 - [332] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Again, Those bonuses were just IDEAS, I never said that they were balanced by any means or that that's how it should be set up. I just think it would be cool to have each logi focused on one type of playstyle rather than every logi getting similar bonuses. Giving every suit a bonus to repair tools would be like giving every assault a reduction in heat buildup for the scrambler rifle, or every sentinel suit a reduction to projectile damage. Just because it's the most desired/useful bonus doesn't mean every suit should get it. That said, maybe the 3-4 bonuses to logistics should be something like this: -Current bonuses to equipment (possibly slightly reduced) -2 bonuses to other equipment aside from enemy's equipment Amarr could be: -Decreased spawn time for uplinks -Increased spawn count for uplinks -Increased nanite capacity for nanohives (not as much as Caldari) -Longer visible duration for scanners (not as much as Gallente -(No bonus to repair tools because Minmatar are enemies) Minmatar could be: -Faster repair rate for repair tools -Increased range for repair tools -Increased resupply/repair rate for nanohives (not as much as Caldari) -Faster recharge time for scanners -(No bonus to uplinks because Amarr are enemies) Caldari could be: -Increased resupply/repair rate for nanohives -Increased nanite capacity for nanohives -Increased range for repair tools (not as much as Minmatar) -Increased spawn count for uplinks (not as much as Amarr) -(No bonus to scanners because Gallente are enemies) Gallente could be: -Decreased precision for scanners -Increased visible duration for scanners -Increased repair rate for repair tools (not as much as Minmatar) -Decreased spawn time for uplinks (not as much as Amarr) -(No bonus to nanohives because Caldari are enemies) Opinions? I'd like to see your idea for what the bonuses should be (bonuses towards equipment efficacy though, nothing like more nanohives being able to be carried or deployed...those kinds of bonuses would not be easily balanced) _______________________________________________________________________________ Again, maybe this idea is crazy, I'd just like to see each suit have a defined playstyle rather than every logistics class be the same with different armor/shield values Yeah, repair tools are probably the most useful tool for DIRECT SUPPORT logistics, but why do the Amarr or Caldari need to be good at playing direct support? These should be the passive support classes and should get bonuses towards a passive playstyle. Not saying each race should be one or another (they all should be capable or doing anything), but there should be a clear reason/advantage for wanting to skill into one suit and not the other. As a final side note, YES these bonuses are hotfixable because they added a grenade cpu reduction to assaults without having it pre-existing. Hotfixable things are those dealing with numbers and pre-existing content. You don't need to make a "physical" asset in order to add a bonus to a skill, because in-game it's just a value. +1 much less restraining,and much more thought out. And it would allow each logistics to remain unique. I personally was thinking in quarters. Racial logi:4/4 Racial ally:3/4 Neutral enemy:2/4 Enemy:1/4 This way any logistics of any race would still be better than...let's say...a scout using the same equipment. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 282	Posted - 2014.08.27 17:29:00 - [333] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: The fastest spawns and the best rep tools? With your proposal you basically finish the job of making every logi suit but the Minmatar completely pointless and obsolete. I'm good with this. You don't want to know what I'm good with, matari. According to your signature link, Combat Rifles. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 373	Posted - 2014.08.28 00:43:00 - [334] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: The fastest spawns and the best rep tools? With your proposal you basically finish the job of making every logi suit but the Minmatar completely pointless and obsolete. I'm good with this. You don't want to know what I'm good with, matari. Farm animals? Baaaaaaa.... Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 373	Posted - 2014.08.28 00:45:00 - [335] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: The fastest spawns and the best rep tools? With your proposal you basically finish the job of making every logi suit but the Minmatar completely pointless and obsolete. I'm good with this. You don't want to know what I'm good with, matari. Cross-dressing? Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 373	Posted - 2014.08.28 00:46:00 - [336] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: The fastest spawns and the best rep tools? With your proposal you basically finish the job of making every logi suit but the Minmatar completely pointless and obsolete. I'm good with this. You don't want to know what I'm good with, matari. Stealing candy from little kids? Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 373	Posted - 2014.08.28 00:47:00 - [337] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: The fastest spawns and the best rep tools? With your proposal you basically finish the job of making every logi suit but the Minmatar completely pointless and obsolete. I'm good with this. You don't want to know what I'm good with, matari. Enslaving another race for 700 years? Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Rusty Shallows Caldari State 2032	Posted - 2014.08.28 00:51:00 - [338] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Again, Those bonuses were just IDEAS, I never said that they were balanced by any means or that that's how it should be set up. I just think it would be cool to have each logi focused on one type of playstyle rather than every logi getting similar bonuses. Giving every suit a bonus to repair tools would be like giving every assault a reduction in heat buildup for the scrambler rifle, or every sentinel suit a reduction to projectile damage. Just because it's the most desired/useful bonus doesn't mean every suit should get it. snip Opinions? I'd like to see your idea for what the bonuses should be (bonuses towards equipment efficacy though, nothing like more nanohives being able to be carried or deployed...those kinds of bonuses would not be easily balanced) _______________________________________________________________________________ snip My opinion is the same as it was when equipment bonus were first fully revealed. A Universal Bonus towards equipment so none would ever suck using equipment combined with Unique Bonus to set each Faction's Frames apart. That way the Devs can make a decisions on how useful gear needs to be for non-Logis and set that as the minimum. Then treat the unique bonuses as cake. That way equipment numbers can be more easily fiddled with while not pidgin-holing one Frame and nerfing three of the other Logis at the same time. The added bonus is if a certain level of expected usefulness can be determined it becomes easier to tackle the question of Support-vs-Combat and where the stat line needs to be. Side Note: My apologies for parroting some of what has already been said. I'm trying to lay it out in a different context. I have a lot of respect for Classic Logis. New Eden could use more Healers. Forums > Game: Biggest understatement ever
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3921	Posted - 2014.08.28 02:31:00 - [339] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: The fastest spawns and the best rep tools? With your proposal you basically finish the job of making every logi suit but the Minmatar completely pointless and obsolete. I'm good with this. You don't want to know what I'm good with, matari. According to your signature link, Combat Rifles. Touch+¬. Well played, sir. Not what I was going for, but a tip of the hat to you nonetheless. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3921	Posted - 2014.08.28 03:10:00 - [340] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: The fastest spawns and the best rep tools? With your proposal you basically finish the job of making every logi suit but the Minmatar completely pointless and obsolete. I'm good with this. You don't want to know what I'm good with, matari. Enslaving every other race for 700 years? FTFY. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 285	Posted - 2014.08.28 05:08:00 - [341] - Quote Thought I'd said this earlier, but.... We have a ton of great ideas in here (Dropsuit Command to 5 for Logistics unlock is best IMO lol) but how much of this stuff is actually feasible/plausible/acceptable for technical reasons etc? Cross? Rattati? Which ones of these should we start... you know... getting all theorycraftcrazybelligerent over? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1022	Posted - 2014.08.28 06:02:00 - [342] - Quote I think Rattati and Logibro have shown that changing numbers or moving skill pre-reqs around is fairly easy to do, but adding stuff ranges from moderate to unfeasibly-high difficulty. Dust/Eve transfers
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 285	Posted - 2014.08.28 06:59:00 - [343] - Quote Why I'm asking what so far are definite no's and which are definite maybes. So we can flame over the worthwhile and start the qq threads for the rest. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1020	Posted - 2014.08.28 07:32:00 - [344] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: The fastest spawns and the best rep tools? With your proposal you basically finish the job of making every logi suit but the Minmatar completely pointless and obsolete. I'm good with this. You don't want to know what I'm good with, matari. Enslaving every other race for 700 years? FTFY. I am not amused. Take this idiocity elsewhere. Every logistics is important,regardless of what the other classes say. Take a step back and look at Dust...carefully... It's effectively become logistics vs everything else. We ARE a race. We shouldn't be fighting our brethren,we need to band together. Your fellow logistics are going through this hardship with us,we are allies,let's start acting like it shall we? Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3923	Posted - 2014.08.28 11:39:00 - [345] - Quote I'm all for racial equality... Of gear. (Otherwise you're on your own; the Empire shall prevail.) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4703	Posted - 2014.08.28 13:17:00 - [346] - Quote I'm gonna leave this here even if it gets lost eventually. Most scanners are fine except for the proximity scanner. It has the smallest scan "area of effect", and the fact that it doesn't even have at least 60 degrees is annoying. 45 degrees for a scanner that sweeps only 60 meters out (about the second circle on your radar) The proto flux has double that angle at 90 degrees and is a better "sweep" than the actual sweeper. So what if we did something crazy and made it 180 or even 360 degrees with a 60 meter range. You can instantly see those around you just like a scout can, but it takes an equipment slot and has a 10 second delay between pulses. Not to mention it even tells the enemy you scanned them. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 374	Posted - 2014.08.29 03:27:00 - [347] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I'm all for racial equality... Of gear. (Otherwise you're on your own; the Empire shall prevail.) On behalf half of all Minmatar... Get bent. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3931	Posted - 2014.08.29 03:36:00 - [348] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I'm all for racial equality... Of gear. (Otherwise you're on your own; the Empire shall prevail.) On behalf half of all Minmatar... Get bent. heavily slaps bogeyman on the back with a hearty laugh "You are not the first and highly unlikely to be the last matari to say that, young one! Have a drink, we will settle it on the battlefield tomorrow..." (The godfather of tactical logistics)
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 375	Posted - 2014.08.29 03:47:00 - [349] - Quote Meee One wrote: I am not amused. Take this idiocity elsewhere. Every logistics is important,regardless of what the other classes say. Take a step back and look at Dust...carefully... It's effectively become logistics vs everything else. We ARE a race. We shouldn't be fighting our brethren,we need to band together. Your fellow logistics are going through this hardship with us,we are allies,let's start acting like it shall we? Well said Me-1. I am more than happy to support my Logi-Bro brothers and sisters (Logi-Bras?)... That would, of course, exclude those annoying Caldari killer-bees as well as those bastard Amarrian logi/assault hybrids - 'cause fck those guys... But everyone else I am happy to support. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 375	Posted - 2014.08.29 03:50:00 - [350] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I'm all for racial equality... Of gear. (Otherwise you're on your own; the Empire shall prevail.) On behalf half of all Minmatar... Get bent. heavily slaps bogeyman on the back with a hearty laugh "You are not the first and highly unlikely to be the last matari to say that, young one! Have a drink, we will settle it on the battlefield tomorrow..." Cheersh... Also... "Take your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape!" Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3932	Posted - 2014.08.29 04:29:00 - [351] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I'm all for racial equality... Of gear. (Otherwise you're on your own; the Empire shall prevail.) On behalf half of all Minmatar... Get bent. heavily slaps bogeyman on the back with a hearty laugh "You are not the first and highly unlikely to be the last matari to say that, young one! Have a drink, we will settle it on the battlefield tomorrow..." Cheersh. Also... "Take your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape!" glances down at dingy minmatar fatigues Lifts one eyebrow quizzically "That's an ironic statement..." straightens cuff of proper gilded uniform "No matter. By the way, your kind should always be careful accepting "drinks" from one such as I without testing it first. You may not be so fortunate next time." smirks and walks away (The godfather of tactical logistics)
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 375	Posted - 2014.08.29 04:47:00 - [352] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I'm all for racial equality... Of gear. (Otherwise you're on your own; the Empire shall prevail.) On behalf half of all Minmatar... Get bent. heavily slaps bogeyman on the back with a hearty laugh "You are not the first and highly unlikely to be the last matari to say that, young one! Have a drink, we will settle it on the battlefield tomorrow..." Cheersh. Also... "Take your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape!" glances down at dingy minmatar fatigues Lifts one eyebrow quizzically "That's an ironic statement..." straightens cuff of proper gilded uniform "No matter. By the way, your kind should always be careful accepting "drinks" from one such as I without testing it first. You may not be so fortunate next time." smirks and walks away I am Minmatar. We are nothing if not ironic. But you are correct, I misspoke. I should have said, "Take your stinking ~~paws~~ claws off me, you damn ~~dirty ape~~ shiny bug-like creature!" changes filter on mobile liquid purification unit and resumes sipping beverage Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1032	Posted - 2014.08.29 05:03:00 - [353] - Quote To all the logistics in fighters...there is only one thing left for me to say to you. Ready? GÿëGû¦Gÿësç+ gtfo Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1033	Posted - 2014.08.29 05:10:00 - [354] - Quote (Gëº-ëGëª) Ok,back on track now. I'd like an update on the +1 deployable carried per level suggestion. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 285	Posted - 2014.08.29 08:16:00 - [355] - Quote Meee One wrote: (Gëº-ëGëª) Ok,back on track now. I'd like an update on the +1 deployable carried per level suggestion. Soon(tm) Where are you on Logistics requiring DS Command 5 for entry? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1601	Posted - 2014.08.29 16:57:00 - [356] - Quote just a basic idea for take the numbers lightly. give logis similar base stats to their assault counterparts with slightly less cpu/pg then give them a new universal module for high or low which gives a: 75%-90% reduction to cpu/pg of equipment up to 1% increase to cpu/pg per equipment carried (scaling to meta level 1% per proto equipment). what this does is encourages players to carry the best equipment and as much of it as they can and without having to be wafer thin on the field yet when not carrying equipment you cannot slayer fit the logi but it can still compete to a degree as an assault alternative but with lower efficiency. so a proper logi would benefit from most of his cpu/pg for tank etc and his equipment would have little detrimental effect on his tank ability. a slayer logi would only have the same base cpu/pg as the proper logi but would have 1 free low or high slot in order to extra tank or extra dps his suit but not surpassing the assault but surpassing his proper logibro in ehp or dps. obviously suit bonus would have to be tweaked or the module bonus reduced and stacked with the suit bonus meaning full logi benefits from the full whack while the slayer type logi benefits to a much lesser degree but potential for frontline combat fits like combat medics etc All Hail Legion
Kaze Eyrou Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2014.08.30 01:51:00 - [357] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Now that installations are so important (for example on Ambush OMS bridge map) a proto Axis repair tool would fill a void and add a dynamic element to the game. This would have mediocre effect on infantry but would be excellent on vehicles and installations. It would enable teams to keep supply depots and key turrets alive when rail/missile turrets and forges are focused on them. Depending on how valuable the installation is, more reps could be put on it. Axis was vehicle. Inert was Installation. I remember because I think I was the only one the entire game with a fitting that used an Inert rep tool. 100% know I'm right. Why? Because Piccolo kept reminding me in my head about how my tool was inert. Also, part of me wishes the Inert tool would come back, but you don't want to. Why? Because every installation I repped became invulnerable except to a Sagaris or Surya with can't-count-em damage mods with closed-beta railguns that hit you so hard your clone counter would tick 10 clones off. The only other time I remember is I repped a supply depot to full health. It took 2 minutes of continuous AV fire from 4 protoswarms and 2 protoforges to finally beat it. And this was before the Minmatar Logistics suit bonus. And now you bring back the Inert rep tool in my hands? With a +25% bonus? Holy **. Just give me a bad day again on Manus Peak as they try to take out the Supply Depot and I'll switch to that in a heartbeat. All I need is 10 seconds; ** I might rep it so hard the shields might come back AND overcharge. Then I'll spend the next 10 minutes tanking the enemy team from 2 protorailtanks, 4 Gastunforges, and 8 protoswarms, as I sip on my tea, pretending I'm English or British, win the match, and find out the forums are livid with "WTF CAN'T I KILL THAT SUPPLY DEPOT" only to have CCP go "K" and nerf them into the ground with a next-day hotfix. But come and sit next to me as I pack a bowl and join me in the wishful thinking that is to bring back the Inert Repair Tool. And I guess Axis-onee-chan can come too. Closed Beta Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou
Kaze Eyrou Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2014.08.30 01:53:00 - [358] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I'm all for racial equality... Of gear. (Otherwise you're on your own; the Empire shall prevail.) On behalf half of all Minmatar... Get bent. heavily slaps bogeyman on the back with a hearty laugh "You are not the first and highly unlikely to be the last matari to say that, young one! Have a drink, we will settle it on the battlefield tomorrow..." What are you going to do? Rep each other to death? Closed Beta Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou
Zindorak 1.U.P 721	Posted - 2014.08.30 02:04:00 - [359] - Quote Maybe give Am logi +1 to deployable links per level Pokemon master! CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
Kaze Eyrou Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2014.08.30 02:11:00 - [360] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: (Gëº-ëGëª) Ok,back on track now. I'd like an update on the +1 deployable carried per level suggestion. Soon(tm) Where are you on Logistics requiring DS Command 5 for entry? I also like the +1 deployable carried per level.... But I'm just a little against Logistics requiring DS Command 5. They'd have to rework the skill tree again wouldn't they? Even if they didn't it would be confusing ("Why can't I unlock Logistics but I can get Assault?" "I have to be DSC 5? That's stupid" sort of thing). Or are you saying that DSC would be the skill to put the +1 deployable carried per level? Because if so, why not just add it to Logistics bonuses? Anyways, while I know the DSC skill is cheap, it doesn't warrant it to have it. That's my take at least. Closed Beta Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou

Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 802	Posted - 2014.08.30 02:18:00 - [361] - Quote Zindorak wrote: Maybe give Am logi +1 to deployable links per level I'm fine with that, as long as you lose your sidearm and the max active for any link stays at 2. An Amarr Logi running around with 24 links would be very, very annoying. Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 379	Posted - 2014.08.30 03:57:00 - [362] - Quote Kaze Eyrou wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I'm all for racial equality... Of gear. (Otherwise you're on your own; the Empire shall prevail.) On behalf half of all Minmatar... Get bent. heavily slaps bogeyman on the back with a hearty laugh "You are not the first and highly unlikely to be the last matari to say that, young one! Have a drink, we will settle it on the battlefield tomorrow..." What are you going to do? Rep each other to death? Well, I do carry a needle... It's pointy and not particularly sterile. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 07:18:00 - [363] - Quote From page 7: el OPERATOR wrote: 3. (riot time) Logistics class should be a level 5 Dropsuit Command unlock. That's right. Drop suit Command to level 5 before accessing Logi frames. For a long time now the logistics class has been inundated by tourists. Individuals who maybe started a character, learned enough to recognize the WP/SP relationship to progression who then undertake the role SOLELY in a point farming capacity to speed their own progression into w/e FOTM they actually want. THESE are the mil needle/rep farmers. These are the HIV next to the supply depot farmers. These are the largely ignorant/disinterested "logis" running around bricktanked spamming what little equipment they can carry after their 0 coreskill investment HP load allows, slaying. Make the role and the class of LOGISTICS a dedicated decision whose impact on the field is reflective of its users' having entered intentionally, not as a peripheral, not as a WP farm stepstone. This will also help w/ players without some of the fundamental gameplay knowledge or experience entering the class, being silly on the field and then ridiculous on the forums. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3944	Posted - 2014.08.30 12:44:00 - [364] - Quote I think the only problem with the level 5 proposition is that it will keep new players from being a logi and the spam monkeys will just use scout suits instead. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1630	Posted - 2014.08.30 14:22:00 - [365] - Quote Yeah, I'm confused as to how spending about 200k so is going to deter people. Shoot Scout with yes.
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1602	Posted - 2014.08.30 15:15:00 - [366] - Quote all this talk about +1 extra equipment deployed or other buffs to equipment will not work because it doesn't address any of the issues around why so few players use logi's or use them as logis. All Hail Legion
Zindorak 1.U.P 733	Posted - 2014.08.30 16:02:00 - [367] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Zindorak wrote: Maybe give Am logi +1 to deployable links per level I'm fine with that, as long as you lose your sidearm and the max active for any link stays at 2. An Amarr Logi running around with 24 links would be very, very annoying. No I don't think you understand +1 max active per level is what i think we should get. Im willing to give up a sidearm Pokemon master! CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 804	Posted - 2014.08.30 16:55:00 - [368] - Quote Zindorak wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Zindorak wrote: Maybe give Am logi +1 to deployable links per level I'm fine with that, as long as you lose your sidearm and the max active for any link stays at 2. An Amarr Logi running around with 24 links would be very, very annoying. No I don't think you understand +1 max active per level is what i think we should get. Im willing to give up a sidearm Nah, I was picking up what you were putting down. That's why I said it's fine as long as it wasn't active deployable. You seriously, no trolling, want to be able to deploy 21 active uplinks on 1 suit? I thought part of this thread was trying to limit equipment spam, and you want to make the Amarr Logi the biggest spammer in the game? Do you find it that hard currently to just switch between two or three different Amarr Logi fits and spam every link available? Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 17:06:00 - [369] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I think the only problem with the level 5 proposition is that it will keep new players from being a logi and the spam monkeys will just use scout suits instead. And thats the point. Keep full noobs with no real idea how to conduct themselves in battle out of logi frames so they instead will use their starters or other mediums to do basic "how-to" development. And the spammers will use their other frames also which limits their ability to spam, limiting the ill-effects of the spam like lag or worthless/detrimental placement and the subsequent ill reputation logis as a whole get from it. It could also keep some of the slayer oriented folks away, since it would not just be more effective battlefield-wise (from the bonuses) to use an assault(scout) to slay it'd be cheaper SP-wise. Granted, after a certain point a couple hundred thousand SP isn't a huge threshold for experienced players, whats that, a week or two of active play? BUT early on, when gaining and using SP is most important a couple hundred thousand extra to unlock the fit may be enough to deter those who aren't actually into running logistics from entering logistics and keep them in the other categories. Experienced players ideally would have a more well rounded idea of what goes on, a better reference as to what is expected of a logi and an easier time getting the SP to make the investment in the class. Thereby possibly increasing the quality of the logistics playerbase as a whole. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1603	Posted - 2014.08.30 17:19:00 - [370] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I think the only problem with the level 5 proposition is that it will keep new players from being a logi and the spam monkeys will just use scout suits instead. And thats the point. Keep full noobs with no real idea how to conduct themselves in battle out of logi frames so they instead will use their starters or other mediums to do basic "how-to" development. And the spammers will use their other frames also which limits their ability to spam, limiting the ill-effects of the spam like lag or worthless/detrimental placement and the subsequent ill reputation logis as a whole get from it. It could also keep some of the slayer oriented folks away, since it would not just be more effective battlefield-wise (from the bonuses) to use an assault(scout) to slay it'd be cheaper SP-wise. Granted, after a certain point a couple hundred thousand SP isn't a huge threshold for experienced players, whats that, a week or two of active play? BUT early on, when gaining and using SP is most important a couple hundred thousand extra to unlock the fit may be enough to deter those who aren't actually into running logistics from entering logistics and keep them in the other categories. Experienced players ideally would have a more well rounded idea of what goes on, a better reference as to what is expected of a logi and an easier time getting the SP to make the investment in the class. Thereby possibly increasing the quality of the logistics playerbase as a whole. this punishes those players who enjoy helping others and might deter them from going into the logi role when others are much easier to get into. this wont fix anything. infact it will further reduce the amount of logis on the field and with a higher minimum sp requirement than all other classes it will probably be the nail in the coffin. remember logis already have the highest sp requirements of all other suits due to equipment. adding more sp requirements just to get into logi is just a bad idea All Hail Legion

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 17:26:00 - [371] - Quote Zindorak wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Zindorak wrote: Maybe give Am logi +1 to deployable links per level I'm fine with that, as long as you lose your sidearm and the max active for any link stays at 2. An Amarr Logi running around with 24 links would be very, very annoying. No I don't think you understand +1 max active per level is what i think we should get. Im willing to give up a sidearm I"m also a no, last thing we or anybody else needs is better spamming circumstances. And I am not willing to trade the sidearm for them. If the link placement you use is worth a **** you don't need to lay 7 of them at a time. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 17:42:00 - [372] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I think the only problem with the level 5 proposition is that it will keep new players from being a logi and the spam monkeys will just use scout suits instead. And thats the point. Keep full noobs with no real idea how to conduct themselves in battle out of logi frames so they instead will use their starters or other mediums to do basic "how-to" development. And the spammers will use their other frames also which limits their ability to spam, limiting the ill-effects of the spam like lag or worthless/detrimental placement and the subsequent ill reputation logis as a whole get from it. It could also keep some of the slayer oriented folks away, since it would not just be more effective battlefield-wise (from the bonuses) to use an assault(scout) to slay it'd be cheaper SP-wise. Granted, after a certain point a couple hundred thousand SP isn't a huge threshold for experienced players, whats that, a week or two of active play? BUT early on, when gaining and using SP is most important a couple hundred thousand extra to unlock the fit may be enough to deter those who aren't actually into running logistics from entering logistics and keep them in the other categories. Experienced players ideally would have a more well rounded idea of what goes on, a better reference as to what is expected of a logi and an easier time getting the SP to make the investment in the class. Thereby possibly increasing the quality of the logistics playerbase as a whole. this punishes those players who enjoy helping others and might deter them from going into the logi role when others are much easier to get into. this wont fix anything. infact it will further reduce the amount of logis on the field and with a higher minimum sp requirement than all other classes it will probably be the nail in the coffin. remember logis already have the highest sp requirements of all other suits due to equipment. adding more sp requirements just to get into logi is just a bad idea I think its the opposite actually, this ensures that those who are serious about helping and doing support are the ones who enter the class. And trading a small portion of the worthless logis to increase the in-battle value of worthwhile logis is a good rrade. We are built not just to provide support but also require support to be successful. Many, many players tho are slow or don't protect the logis because many too many "logis" are just spam/WP whoring idiots. The higher the entry bar, the higher the quality potential and more likely logis will be considered as deserving of the support they need to survive giving the support they provide. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1605	Posted - 2014.08.30 18:39:00 - [373] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I think its the opposite actually, this ensures that those who are serious about helping and doing support are the ones who enter the class. And trading a small portion of the worthless logis to increase the in-battle value of worthwhile logis is a good rrade. We are built not just to provide support but also require support to be successful. Many, many players tho are slow or don't protect the logis because many too many "logis" are just spam/WP whoring idiots. The higher the entry bar, the higher the quality potential and more likely logis will be considered as deserving of the support they need to survive giving the support they provide. i came into this game and started as a logi/av player 100% player support on my mind. i didn't care at all about killing other players directly. a lot of players feel this way. they don't mind the odd kill but they enjoy all the support mechanics and items much, much more than killing. all this idea does is tells every like minded player as myself they must be a killer and if they want to play the type of gameplay they actually like then they have to invest more of everything to do it compared to every other class. if that had been the case for me i would never have played dust. also your highlighting stuff like spam. that is not a problem with the player. that is a problem with the suits/equipment and other flawed mechanics. your so called fix would not fix those issues. it would just put them at a higher level which everyone who abuses those mechanics would still do. we keep shifting the issues of the logi or hiding them behind buffs/nerfs to everything else without fixing the actual issues. you cannot fix the logi by creating more sp sinks because at some point everyone will surpass those sp limitations and then the sink is pointless. bonuses to equipment only buffs the equipment not the logi, ehp/cpu changes only feeds the slayers. there are no simple fixes to the logi and certainly sp sinks will only be seen as a punishment to logis. we can only fix logis by doing a drastic overhaul and taking them in a different direction. otherwise we will just end up going in circles again as with every other change All Hail Legion
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 18:58:00 - [374] - Quote It doesn't tell them they must be killers, it tells them to take it seriously and tells those looking for the minimal investment with the maximum payout to look elsewhere. I also have been logistics from the start and have weathered every update, patch and hotfix since the open beta period day 1 when I started. Logistics right now is in a very good spot, provided a couple things for overall survivability are addressed. After those adjustments, raising the cost of entry will limit some of the abuse potential since the class will not be a dime a dozen. Spam is ABSOLUTELY the fault of the player. The PLAYER is in charge of his/her ACTIONS. Equipment doesn't spam itself. Have you ever been running your repper and suddenly had ALL of your uplinks, ammo hives and triage hives suddenly fly out of your inventory and pile emselves up at your feet in some worthless area (like immediately around a fkn supply depot), bro? This idea is less about "fixing the logis" and more about fixing the mindset. Theres a wealth of team support mechanisms with a huge potential, when used properly, to swing the results of a battle in DUST. That being the case, it makes sense that for those who claim to be serious about taking responsibility for that support put their SP where their mouths are and INVEST. In for the inch, in for the mile. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Zindorak 1.U.P 736	Posted - 2014.08.30 19:08:00 - [375] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Zindorak wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Zindorak wrote: Maybe give Am logi +1 to deployable links per level I'm fine with that, as long as you lose your sidearm and the max active for any link stays at 2. An Amarr Logi running around with 24 links would be very, very annoying. No I don't think you understand +1 max active per level is what i think we should get. Im willing to give up a sidearm I"m also a no, last thing we or anybody else needs is better spamming circumstances. And I am not willing to trade the sidearm for them. If the link placement you use is worth a **** you don't need to lay 7 of them at a time. The Am logi bonus right now is bad like Gal and Cal assault. I can't switch suits or i will lose the bonus which is dumb what if we need to AV or something Pokemon master! CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1605	Posted - 2014.08.30 19:20:00 - [376] - Quote spam is the fault of the items and mechanics in place for the use of those items. when the suit allows you to carry 4 different versions of the same piece of equipment and then the suit is bonuses only to that equipment then this encourages spam. if a player could not spam as in the case of repair tools or scanners and needles etc then spam is obsolete and we can balance on other issues. as long as a player is allowed to drop 9+ pieces if equipment they will do it. this is not fault of the player. its the fault of ccp for allowing it. if a sniper rifle allows you to shoot from the redline you are going to do it, if a repair tool allows you to repair 2 people your going to do it, if extra slots and loads of cpu/pg allow you to outfit any other suit in the game then you are going to do it as is the case of slayer logis. the problem isn't the player because they are using the tools they are supplied with the emphasis of do whatever you want without limitations. this is the same with droppable equipment. ccp allows us to spam so we spam. that is what is boils down to. the mechanics is at fault because if we couldn't do it then it wouldn't be a problem. All Hail Legion
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4721	Posted - 2014.08.30 19:30:00 - [377] - Quote What is everyone's opinions on the buff to nanite injectors proposed for Delta? The same amount of shield replenished as armor? Sounds freaking awesome. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 19:44:00 - [378] - Quote I'm holding individuals responsible for their actions, you're applying culpability as responsibility to CCP. I'm able to drive over a child crossing the street in a crosswalk in my truck by virtue of it having been manufactured with a relatively higher frame height. When I do, is my fault for not looking/not caring or is it Fords fault for making a vehicle capable of running someone over? Sections of the map that are glitchable, which people exploit, is their exploitation of that their fault for knowing and exploiting its glitchable aspect or is it CCPs fault for their players exploiting said glitchable aspect? Our suit bonuses, agreed, can be exploited to contribute to spamming. Which is all the more reason to ensure that those people who have access to the bonuses don't have the access solely to exploit those bonuses! A significantly higher barrier to class entry is an extremely good method of screening these, since the SP involved WON'T be immediately recouped by the WP generated exploiting the fit for a possibly significant period of time. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 19:45:00 - [379] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: What is everyone's opinions on the buff to nanite injectors proposed for Delta? The same amount of shield replenished as armor? Sounds freaking awesome. Has that been posted somewhere as being a part of delta or is that forum ether theory? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1609	Posted - 2014.08.30 20:20:00 - [380] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I'm holding individuals responsible for their actions, you're applying culpability as responsibility to CCP. I'm able to drive over a child crossing the street in a crosswalk in my truck by virtue of it having been manufactured with a relatively higher frame height. When I do, is my fault for not looking/not caring or is it Fords fault for making a vehicle capable of running someone over? Sections of the map that are glitchable, which people exploit, is their exploitation of that their fault for knowing and exploiting its glitchable aspect or is it CCPs fault for their players exploiting said glitchable aspect? Our suit bonuses, agreed, can be exploited to contribute to spamming. Which is all the more reason to ensure that those people who have access to the bonuses don't have the access solely to exploit those bonuses! A significantly higher barrier to class entry is an extremely good method of screening these, since the SP involved WON'T be immediately recouped by the WP generated exploiting the fit for a possibly significant period of time. if that crossing was a gated level crossing then the mechanic is in place to prevent you from exploiting your car's ability to run over people or in that case run into a train regardless of your personal input into your car. the same could be applied to equipment spam. if ccp prevented it then it won't happen. if a big heavy steel gate is in the way of you running that crossing then you are not running that crossing whether you want to or not. your comparing dropping equipment which is an intended mechanic with glitches and exploits which are not intended mechanics. the intended mechanic is there which allows spam and has been since the beginning of dust. if it was not intended it would be gone but just because its intended doesnt mean its a good mechanic. its a mechanic to be used. you cannot blame anyone for using intended mechanics right or wrong. creating a work around for broken skills and mechanics which make spamming better is not a fix. fixing the broken skills and mechanics causing the issues is the fix. All Hail Legion

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 20:25:00 - [381] - Quote EDIT: I forgot to quote it, this is about SHAYZ's needle question Regardless of the answer to the question I like the idea, although I'm hesitant to fully endorse it considering its really a stealth buff to scouts, since they do tend to run shield heavy/armor light or full brick. My issue, which begins with my root issue of scouts and their multiple equipment slots, is we'll start having super scout slayer squads where even if one or two of them get dropped their buddies will cloak, revive them and when they pop up w full or almost full shields they'll just re-engage with little to no pullback for a shield regen period. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 20:35:00 - [382] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I'm holding individuals responsible for their actions, you're applying culpability as responsibility to CCP. I'm able to drive over a child crossing the street in a crosswalk in my truck by virtue of it having been manufactured with a relatively higher frame height. When I do, is my fault for not looking/not caring or is it Fords fault for making a vehicle capable of running someone over? Sections of the map that are glitchable, which people exploit, is their exploitation of that their fault for knowing and exploiting its glitchable aspect or is it CCPs fault for their players exploiting said glitchable aspect? Our suit bonuses, agreed, can be exploited to contribute to spamming. Which is all the more reason to ensure that those people who have access to the bonuses don't have the access solely to exploit those bonuses! A significantly higher barrier to class entry is an extremely good method of screening these, since the SP involved WON'T be immediately recouped by the WP generated exploiting the fit for a possibly significant period of time. if that crossing was a gated level crossing then the mechanic is in place to prevent you from exploiting your car's ability to run over people or in that case run into a train regardless of your personal input into your car. the same could be applied to equipment spam. if ccp prevented it then it won't happen. if a big heavy steel gate is in the way of you running that crossing then you are not running that crossing whether you want to or not. your comparing dropping equipment which is an intended mechanic with glitches and exploits which are not intended mechanics. the intended mechanic is there which allows spam and has been since the beginning of dust. if it was not intended it would be gone but just because its intended doesnt mean its a good mechanic. its a mechanic to be used. you cannot blame anyone for using intended mechanics right or wrong. creating a work around for broken skills and mechanics which make spamming better is not a fix. fixing the broken skills and mechanics causing the issues is the fix. A high SP entry is a great big steel gate across every abusers abilty to exploit the mechanic. If we agree that the mechanic isn't broken, and is actually the intended use BUT that having too much spam is a problem then we need to limit the number of people able to use the mechanic. Abusers don't want to work and earn, they want maximize the reults of their minimal efforts despite any adverse effect on the overall game around them. Any effort to limit the "cheap and easy" mindset from the class is a worthwhile one and with the tools available to use, raising the SP cost of entry, therby minimalizing the entry rewards for a period, will help deter the abusive mindset from a class that when abused affects its surroundings extensively. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1609	Posted - 2014.08.30 20:45:00 - [383] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I'm holding individuals responsible for their actions, you're applying culpability as responsibility to CCP. I'm able to drive over a child crossing the street in a crosswalk in my truck by virtue of it having been manufactured with a relatively higher frame height. When I do, is my fault for not looking/not caring or is it Fords fault for making a vehicle capable of running someone over? Sections of the map that are glitchable, which people exploit, is their exploitation of that their fault for knowing and exploiting its glitchable aspect or is it CCPs fault for their players exploiting said glitchable aspect? Our suit bonuses, agreed, can be exploited to contribute to spamming. Which is all the more reason to ensure that those people who have access to the bonuses don't have the access solely to exploit those bonuses! A significantly higher barrier to class entry is an extremely good method of screening these, since the SP involved WON'T be immediately recouped by the WP generated exploiting the fit for a possibly significant period of time. if that crossing was a gated level crossing then the mechanic is in place to prevent you from exploiting your car's ability to run over people or in that case run into a train regardless of your personal input into your car. the same could be applied to equipment spam. if ccp prevented it then it won't happen. if a big heavy steel gate is in the way of you running that crossing then you are not running that crossing whether you want to or not. your comparing dropping equipment which is an intended mechanic with glitches and exploits which are not intended mechanics. the intended mechanic is there which allows spam and has been since the beginning of dust. if it was not intended it would be gone but just because its intended doesnt mean its a good mechanic. its a mechanic to be used. you cannot blame anyone for using intended mechanics right or wrong. creating a work around for broken skills and mechanics which make spamming better is not a fix. fixing the broken skills and mechanics causing the issues is the fix. A high SP entry is a great big steel gate across every abusers abilty to exploit the mechanic. If we agree that the mechanic isn't broken, and is actually the intended use BUT that having too much spam is a problem then we need to limit the number of people able to use the mechanic. Abusers don't want to work and earn, they want maximize the reults of their minimal efforts despite any adverse effect on the overall game around them. Any effort to limit the "cheap and easy" mindset from the class is a worthwhile one and with the tools available to use, raising the SP cost of entry, therby minimalizing the entry rewards for a period, will help deter the abusive mindset from a class that when abused affects its surroundings extensively. no the sp requirement is a small latch on the gate not the gate itself, that when you are big enough to reach it you can just open the gate and never be bothered by it again. what you want is a plaster to put over the problem instead of a real fix All Hail Legion
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 21:01:00 - [384] - Quote Better a gate with a latch than no gate whatsoever. Regardless of any limit you put on equipment, whether its carrying limits, number active limits or even individual expiration timers, the abusive will look to find ways to manipulate and the abuse the circumstances. So, instead of changing flipping individual equipment behaviours around a high SP requirement at the very least will dissuade the noobabusers and require that proabusers have to WAIT until they're willing to pay before having access to the class. Does this stop abuse cold, forever? Of course not. Will the abusers just find something else to abuse to generate the SP to earn access? YES. They will not be able to use the Logistics class as readily to be abusive with! Which IS the point! I helps to make and keep the class occupied with those serious about the purpose of the class as opposed to the exploitation of it! Also, as an aside, I appreciate your avoidance regarding the responsibility element of this equation that I tried to exemplify with my truck running over a kid analogy. Don't think I missed that, I can run with your gate/no gate/gate with a latch red herring attempt just fine. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1609	Posted - 2014.08.30 21:24:00 - [385] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Better a gate with a latch than no gate whatsoever. Regardless of any limit you put on equipment, whether its carrying limits, number active limits or even individual expiration timers, the abusive will look to find ways to manipulate and the abuse the circumstances. So, instead of changing flipping individual equipment behaviours around a high SP requirement at the very least will dissuade the noobabusers and require that proabusers have to WAIT until they're willing to pay before having access to the class. Does this stop abuse cold, forever? Of course not. Will the abusers just find something else to abuse to generate the SP to earn access? YES. They will not be able to use the Logistics class as readily to be abusive with! Which IS the point! I helps to make and keep the class occupied with those serious about the purpose of the class as opposed to the exploitation of it! Also, as an aside, I appreciate your avoidance regarding the responsibility element of this equation that I tried to exemplify with my truck running over a kid analogy. Don't think I missed that, I can run with your gate/no gate/gate with a latch red herring attempt just fine. i think you are missing my point. your idea just slows people down getting to a point where they can abuse the, what we think are broken mechanics. once there your fix is void. it does nothing. fixing the broken mechanics instead completely negates the issue of severe spam from anyone. you are trying to creating something to make it harder to abuse something like spamming when the simple thing is just to fix the issue of spamming itself at its source. All Hail Legion
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 22:21:00 - [386] - Quote I'll try it like this, bold is me ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: i think you are missing my point. your idea just slows people down getting to a point where they can abuse the, what we think are broken mechanics. YES. It limits entrance to the class so as to ensure the individual is either serious about pursuing it OR willing to PAY EXTRA (hopefully deterring) as abusers for the use of the class to be abusive. once there your fix is void. it does nothing. fixing the broken mechanics instead completely negates the issue of severe spam from anyone. Any "fix", like any game element, is subject to abuse and manipulation by those who seek to abuse and manipulate. I don't find the mechanic " broken" so much as simply "abusable". There is a difference, there are occasions where large groups of equipments need to be laid out for the intent to be effective. You said you AV. I do too, my AV tool of choice are Proxes, which work best laid as minefields supplemented with REs. On the overhead view, the uninitiated could see one of my minefields and say, " Oh that scrub is just spamming gear". IDGAF what that guy thinks, IGAF about whether an HAV will be able to drive right through or have to stop. you are trying to creating something to make it harder to abuse something like spamming... NO. NO. NO. I'm trying to create something to make it harder to abuse the LOGISTICS class, as a peripheral benefit spam abuse becomes harder too. when the simple thing is just to fix the issue of spamming itself at its source. Okaaay, so lets "fix" the "source" of the abuse: The playerbase. As I said a couple pages back, equipment doesn't spam, PLAYERS do. Shall there be a kick mechanic hotfixed in to remove someone who spams? Spam is a result of PLAYER behaviour. The individual opening the equipment menu and running willy-nilly pitching gear out with every step or piling it. There ARE limits already to this, its called Number Active, as well as that only certain classes carry equipment. Since Logis carry the most equipment so are the most subjected to being abused for use as spammers , maybe we expand that (I am opposed, active limits are fine) to address equipment spam abuse after raising the SP requirement to the class to address the class abuse? (which I obviously endorse) Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Rusty Shallows Caldari State 2060	Posted - 2014.08.30 23:01:00 - [387] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: What is everyone's opinions on the buff to nanite injectors proposed for Delta? The same amount of shield replenished as armor? Sounds freaking awesome. Has that been posted somewhere as being a part of delta or is that forum ether theory? Early "Narrative" option for Delta. And yes, very awesome indeed. Camping people on the ground was too easy. All the more trolltastic if you timed your fire to kill the hero with the needle as well. I was guilty of that. I have a lot of respect for Classic Logis. New Eden could use more Healers. Forums > Game: Biggest understatement ever
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 23:10:00 - [388] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: What is everyone's opinions on the buff to nanite injectors proposed for Delta? The same amount of shield replenished as armor? Sounds freaking awesome. Has that been posted somewhere as being a part of delta or is that forum ether theory? Early "Narrative" option for Delta. And yes, very awesome indeed. Camping people on the ground was too easy. All the more trolltastic if you timed your fire to kill the hero with the needle as well. I was guilty of that. TYVM, had not seen that posted up there Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3945	Posted - 2014.08.31 03:28:00 - [389] - Quote I gotta go with Adam of Eve here, Not that operators sentiment is wrong, but I really don't think the proposal will have the desired effect. Like i said earlier, I think what you will end up doing is adding a barrier to new players who night want to play logistics without discouraging spammers. THe key question is this: What about unlocking logi suits at level 5 prevents someone from simply skilling to level 3 in uplinks. making two scout fits with different combinations of links, and then simply dropping 5-6 uplinks before swapping out to their go-to brick tanked layer scout fit? (The correct answer is nothing) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 222	Posted - 2014.08.31 06:59:00 - [390] - Quote Zindorak wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Zindorak wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Zindorak wrote: Maybe give Am logi +1 to deployable links per level I'm fine with that, as long as you lose your sidearm and the max active for any link stays at 2. An Amarr Logi running around with 24 links would be very, very annoying. No I don't think you understand +1 max active per level is what i think we should get. Im willing to give up a sidearm I"m also a no, last thing we or anybody else needs is better spamming circumstances. And I am not willing to trade the sidearm for them. If the link placement you use is worth a **** you don't need to lay 7 of them at a time. The Am logi bonus right now is bad like Gal and Cal assault. I can't switch suits or i will lose the bonus which is dumb what if we need to AV or something This is the one thing that kind of annoys me when i die in my Amarr logi suit. Does the bonus to nanohives work the same way for Cal logis, I cant actually remember anyone actually complaining about it. Then again i barely see any Cal logis Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training

Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 168	Posted - 2014.08.31 08:00:00 - [391] - Quote As far as preventing equipment spam, just have a maximum total hives dropped per person and maximum total links dropped per person. E.G. Scouts and Amarr logis are able to drop a total of 5 links (3 viziam + 2 viziam flux = a total of 5), while every other suit can only have a total of 3 active, other logis being allowed 4. A similar system being in place for hives with Caldari being able to keep the most hives active, then the other logis next highest, then the rest of the suits being able to have a total of two active(these numbers are just the first that popped into my head). While logis would still be the equipment "spamming" suits, but overall spamming would be severely throttled. Also, if you switch away from the logi suit you "total" would change down to what ever suit you changed to and would "delete" all but the latest equipment you dropped. E.G. if you went from a suit with a link cap of 6 to a suit with a cap of two, all but the last two would "pop". I mentioned scouts to have a bonus to link cap because it sounds like something that scouts should have. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 222	Posted - 2014.08.31 08:25:00 - [392] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: What is everyone's opinions on the buff to nanite injectors proposed for Delta? The same amount of shield replenished as armor? Sounds freaking awesome. Yesyesyesyesyes I fit one anyway but this is one hell of a buff & instantly makes a nanite injector extremely useful. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1613	Posted - 2014.08.31 16:58:00 - [393] - Quote still missing the point. the problem is not with the player abusing the item the problem is that the item can be abused. the fact ccp allowed players to abuse it is the problem not the players using the items for maximum efficiency. the simple fact is ccp allows us to drop all that equipment end of story. "IF A PLAYER CAN DO IT A PLAYER WILL DO IT" this is the biggest problem logistics has had from the start. the fact they can do anything with virtually anything in the game which makes balancing them with everything else difficult and results in weak logistics using things like spam as an efficient way to use the role. the fact is logistics suits are the least efficient suits in the game due to their high costs and weak stats. raising the sp bar is not going to stop anyone going into the role and once there its not going to stop them spamming. your idea is just trying to apply a plaster over a gaping wound and saying it will be ok. the fact it will just delay players for a short time and then they will resume the spam. stopping noobs doing it is besides the point. its mostly the veterans who do the spamming anyway. all the sp sink will do is punish those who actually play the role as intended. All Hail Legion
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1044	Posted - 2014.08.31 20:52:00 - [394] - Quote To the +1 uplink deployable. No,it would only be abused. Durable? Yes Deployable? No Lv5 to get into logistics,then insane SP costs for gear? Lolno In traditional gaming,the gear that are the hardest to get into offers the greatest advantages with the least drawbacks. Lv5 would imply that logistics: -Has the best survivability of all frames. -The best killing potential of all frames. It's simple logic that is pushed in every game ever: -More investment = more reward If anything,it should be cheaper. Lv2 for logistics lv3 for assault. This would subconsciously tell players assaults survive longer and kill better. And it would be true. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 878	Posted - 2014.08.31 21:15:00 - [395] - Quote I am proto Amarr Logi / Scout / Sentinel / Assault The state of "support roles" in Dust is terrible. My scout is 10x better for uplinks compared to my logi. This is because my scout is able to see far better run faster and carry a just as useful number of uplinks. This is the case for a couple of reasons: The bonus does not apply after switching suits (I am actually okay with this as it is fair to the guys running rep tools or scanners) I only get a bonus to uplinks which makes my proto suit nothing more than a lag bomb waiting to happen Fitting a full set of proto uplinks ensures I will be very squishy. My proposal for logis just a couple of days ago was this: As a ROLE bonus logis receive an efficiency bonus to all support equipment similar to the current racial bonuses as well as a bonus to the nanite injector. As a RACIAL bonus 5% per level reduction of cpu/pg to the racial equipment. Obviously this would accompany an increase in pg/cpu of all of the equipment involved. What you get out of this: If you want to run multiple types of equipment or run a large number of passive equipment you need to specialize into your primary type to make room for the equipment not made for your suit. If a non logistics suit wants to carry their own ammo for example they are penalized. People that run multiple logi roles are rewarded for their extra work and not forced into choosing which to make better.
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1616	Posted - 2014.08.31 22:55:00 - [396] - Quote another option is give logis a more broader bonus to all equipment with a racial twist. like a 5% bonus per level to a specific feature to each individual piece of equipment and then an extra 5% bonus per level to their racial specific item. gve gives logis a bonus to all equipment not just a specific single piece they may or may not even use on their prefered suit. also give them a tanking based bonus based on how many pieces of equipment they fit and what meta level it is. fitting 4 pieces of proto equipment would drastically reduce your fitting potential hence why a lot of players use low end equipment and high amounts of tanking modules. this would encourage the use of better equipment over better tanking modules (just an example) suit bonus: +0.5B/1A/1.5P % bonus to arm and shield ehp per level for each piece of equipment fit role bonus per level 5% bonus to repair tool range and repair amount (10% mini) 5% bonus to needle repair amount 5% bonus to uplink spawn count and speed (10% amarr) 5% bonus to active scanner range and arc (10% gal) 5% bonus to RE and proxi range and damage 5% bonus to nanohive nanite count and supply range (10% caldari) just a basic example to show what i mean by a broader bonus to equipment with survival based on actually carrying equipment. what this means for a logi is being better with all equipment than any other class with a specialisation in a single piece and while doing their role they benefit by extra ehp rather than dropping all equipment then changing to a cheap version with more ehp/dps. obviously the numbers are all for show but something like this with the right base stats could boost the logis role without rendering them weak in other ways to ofset the balance like we have seen time and time before All Hail Legion
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 806	Posted - 2014.08.31 23:03:00 - [397] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: 5% bonus to needle repair amount Would this make anyone I revived invincible for a minute if I use the State Kaalakiota Injector? Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1616	Posted - 2014.08.31 23:04:00 - [398] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: 5% bonus to needle repair amount Would this make anyone I revived invincible for a minute if I use the State Kaalakiota Injector? just example numbers as i said a few times All Hail Legion
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1046	Posted - 2014.09.01 03:11:00 - [399] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: I am proto Amarr Logi / Scout / Sentinel / Assault The state of "support roles" in Dust is terrible. My scout is 10x better for uplinks compared to my logi. This is because my scout is able to see far better run faster and carry a just as useful number of uplinks. This is the case for a couple of reasons: The bonus does not apply after switching suits (I am actually okay with this as it is fair to the guys running rep tools or scanners) I only get a bonus to uplinks which makes my proto suit nothing more than a lag bomb waiting to happen Fitting a full set of proto uplinks ensures I will be very squishy. My proposal for logis just a couple of days ago was this: As a ROLE bonus logis receive an efficiency bonus to all support equipment similar to the current racial bonuses as well as a bonus to the nanite injector. As a RACIAL bonus 5% per level reduction of cpu/pg to the racial equipment. Obviously this would accompany an increase in pg/cpu of all of the equipment involved. What you get out of this: If you want to run multiple types of equipment or run a large number of passive equipment you need to specialize into your primary type to make room for the equipment not made for your suit. If a non logistics suit wants to carry their own ammo for example they are penalized. People that run multiple logi roles are rewarded for their extra work and not forced into choosing which to make better. You again... So,by forcing logis into choosing which equipment to make better... It prevents logis from being forced into choosing which equipment to make better... Lolwut? That's like saying "you can save your right hand from being sawed off" "You just have to saw your right hand off". Mind = Blown Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 879	Posted - 2014.09.01 06:50:00 - [400] - Quote Meee One wrote: deezy dabest wrote: I am proto Amarr Logi / Scout / Sentinel / Assault The state of "support roles" in Dust is terrible. My scout is 10x better for uplinks compared to my logi. This is because my scout is able to see far better run faster and carry a just as useful number of uplinks. This is the case for a couple of reasons: The bonus does not apply after switching suits (I am actually okay with this as it is fair to the guys running rep tools or scanners) I only get a bonus to uplinks which makes my proto suit nothing more than a lag bomb waiting to happen Fitting a full set of proto uplinks ensures I will be very squishy. My proposal for logis just a couple of days ago was this: As a ROLE bonus logis receive an efficiency bonus to all support equipment similar to the current racial bonuses as well as a bonus to the nanite injector. As a RACIAL bonus 5% per level reduction of cpu/pg to the racial equipment. Obviously this would accompany an increase in pg/cpu of all of the equipment involved. What you get out of this: If you want to run multiple types of equipment or run a large number of passive equipment you need to specialize into your primary type to make room for the equipment not made for your suit. If a non logistics suit wants to carry their own ammo for example they are penalized. People that run multiple logi roles are rewarded for their extra work and not forced into choosing which to make better. You again... So,by forcing logis into choosing which equipment to make better... It prevents logis from being forced into choosing which equipment to make better... Lolwut? That's like saying "you can save your right hand from being sawed off" "You just have to saw your right hand off". Mind = Blown Yes me again. They are not being forced into making one piece of equipment better. They are being presented with the ability to run multiple roles OR more equipment once they have specialized a suit. The concept is not that complicated. Lets see your proposal.

Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1054	Posted - 2014.09.01 18:56:00 - [401] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Meee One wrote: deezy dabest wrote: I am proto Amarr Logi / Scout / Sentinel / Assault The state of "support roles" in Dust is terrible. My scout is 10x better for uplinks compared to my logi. This is because my scout is able to see far better run faster and carry a just as useful number of uplinks. This is the case for a couple of reasons: The bonus does not apply after switching suits (I am actually okay with this as it is fair to the guys running rep tools or scanners) I only get a bonus to uplinks which makes my proto suit nothing more than a lag bomb waiting to happen Fitting a full set of proto uplinks ensures I will be very squishy. My proposal for logis just a couple of days ago was this: As a ROLE bonus logis receive an efficiency bonus to all support equipment similar to the current racial bonuses as well as a bonus to the nanite injector. As a RACIAL bonus 5% per level reduction of cpu/pg to the racial equipment. Obviously this would accompany an increase in pg/cpu of all of the equipment involved. What you get out of this: If you want to run multiple types of equipment or run a large number of passive equipment you need to specialize into your primary type to make room for the equipment not made for your suit. If a non logistics suit wants to carry their own ammo for example they are penalized. People that run multiple logi roles are rewarded for their extra work and not forced into choosing which to make better. You again... So,by forcing logis into choosing which equipment to make better... It prevents logis from being forced into choosing which equipment to make better... Lolwut? That's like saying "you can save your right hand from being sawed off" "You just have to saw your right hand off". Mind = Blown Yes me again. They are not being forced into making one piece of equipment better. They are being presented with the ability to run multiple roles OR more equipment once they have specialized a suit. The concept is not that complicated. Lets see your proposal. You must have just gotten to this thread... The answer is simple. Improve logistics abilities with equipment,don't nerf other suits....except scouts....dem 2 equipment slots allow for RE + nano abuse.... Quarters: +1 deployable carried per level Racial logistics:4/4 -or- 100% bonuses Racial ally: 3/4 -or- 75% bonuses Neutral enemy:2/4 -or- 50% bonuses Enemy: 1/4 -or- 25% bonuses Take each bonus and lower it and apply it to each suit,this way each logistics is better with an equipment than any scout. And you (with these changes),unlike a scout,can carry more allowing you to more easily re-inforce the frontlines. TBH,Uplinks are a very scouty thing to carry IMHO. You as an amarr logistics approach with the group throwing down links that allow the group to quickly replenish its lost ranks. While the scout,being sneakier and faster uses the destraction the main group is causing to slip by and drop a link. Result: -2 angles of attack created just in case one is routed This is synergy,both benefit from each others actions. It's the RE + nano "scouts" that are the real problem. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1709	Posted - 2014.09.02 04:27:00 - [402] - Quote A lot of my experience comes from a support role in general. I was a support logi since closed beta up until 9/19 when I switched over to the scout role. I don't have much current experience in the logi role, but all those sp spent into support items remains. I understand that support logi should have the best equipment offerings. But that shouldn't make those EQ useless to other suits. Mostly that relates to uplinks. They really aren't useful until you hit level 4 links. They need better variety, I would fit uplinks that can spawn faster but had limited uses. But most of the links are the same across the meta levels. Repair tools are in a nice spot. Having an installation repair tool back would be nice. I don't know why they took out the axis. Especially since they have now buffed installations it could be more useful. Repair tools need a better lock on mechanic. It's frustrating to lose locks when a blueberry runs in front of you. Would be nice if you could designate your targets. Either through a mini game mechanic where you hold r2 until a symbol pops up, or by the "squad leader menu" that's specific for logi. People saying repair tools aren't strong enough must not be using the core focused. That thing turns on god mode and the flux variants allow you reach out and touch even scouts. Lack of any shield repping mod Is still frustrating. It continues to reiterate that armor tanking is better. I remember using the logi lav to shield rep people.....it was awesome. The tools are there ccp just removed them. Shield reppers could have cool downs, so they have wave of opportunity, Logi don't need huge tanks. I think it would be relevant if logi got similar bonuses as sentinels. So they had better "resistance" to damage, that way it's not a straight HP buff. I logi just fine from a cal scout stacked with shield and armor and that only hits about 600 total hp. It's a hard line to draw and still keep slayers out of the class. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1710	Posted - 2014.09.02 04:45:00 - [403] - Quote Ps, not sure of this is possible, but what about allowing squad members the option to spawn on all logi classes. You could give the spawn modifier based on their racial level.? My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 223	Posted - 2014.09.02 14:19:00 - [404] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross CCP Rattati wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I take it all logistics will be looked at separately eventually (When is that by the way? Wasn't it slated for delta alongside commandos?) Aside from that it looks pretty okay. CCP Rattati wrote: Hotfix Delta or later Sidearm rebalance Sniper Rifle review Efficacy bonuses Further slot based PG/CPU updates based on necessity, Scouts, Commandos, Logistics From this i take it there is no necessity to look at the logi/support role in Dust. As 'necessity' deems it ok, that is despite the number of issues raised here in this thread and in others over the last year. Is it that none of these issues can be resolved via hotfixes ? Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1061	Posted - 2014.09.02 19:49:00 - [405] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: A lot of my experience comes from a support role in general. I was a support logi since closed beta up until 9/19 when I switched over to the scout role. I don't have much current experience in the logi role, but all those sp spent into support items remains. I understand that support logi should have the best equipment offerings. But that shouldn't make those EQ useless to other suits. Mostly that relates to uplinks. They really aren't useful until you hit level 4 links. They need better variety, I would fit uplinks that can spawn faster but had limited uses. But most of the links are the same across the meta levels. Repair tools are in a nice spot. Having an installation repair tool back would be nice. I don't know why they took out the axis. Especially since they have now buffed installations it could be more useful. Repair tools need a better lock on mechanic. It's frustrating to lose locks when a blueberry runs in front of you. Would be nice if you could designate your targets. Either through a mini game mechanic where you hold r2 until a symbol pops up, or by the "squad leader menu" that's specific for logi. People saying repair tools aren't strong enough must not be using the core focused. That thing turns on god mode and the flux variants allow you reach out and touch even scouts. Lack of any shield repping mod Is still frustrating. It continues to reiterate that armor tanking is better. I remember using the logi lav to shield rep people.....it was awesome. The tools are there ccp just removed them. Shield reppers could have cool downs, so they have wave of opportunity, Logi don't need huge tanks. I think it would be relevant if logi got similar bonuses as sentinels. So they had better "resistance" to damage, that way it's not a straight HP buff. I logi just fine from a cal scout stacked with shield and armor and that only hits about 600 total hp. It's a hard line to draw and still keep slayers out of the class. That said, equipment spam still needs fixed. People shouldn't be able to spam as much EQ. Especially near supply depots. There should be a radius around a depot where you can't drop anything, Oh and depots should replace EQs. It's just silly to swap in and out of suits to get more hives. Alot of times i drop a single hive near a depot because its refilling speed is so slow. But if the refilling speed was buffed i could agree. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1061	Posted - 2014.09.02 19:54:00 - [406] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross CCP Rattati wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I take it all logistics will be looked at separately eventually (When is that by the way? Wasn't it slated for delta alongside commandos?) Aside from that it looks pretty okay. CCP Rattati wrote: Hotfix Delta or later Sidearm rebalance Sniper Rifle review Efficacy bonuses Further slot based PG/CPU updates based on necessity, Scouts, Commandos, Logistics From this i take it there is no necessity to look at the logi/support role in Dust. As 'necessity' deems it ok, that is despite the number of issues raised here in this thread and in others over the last year. Is it that none of these issues can be resolved via hotfixes ? Stats can be changed via hotfix,so can bonuses. Remember charlie? Assaults got eHP,slots,and a new bonus to grenade fitting. "Necessity" when it's used as he has in that sentence means "we know the problems we just don't care,we like assaults more". So yes,in a single hotfix, CCP can easily buff logistics. At this point they are simply refusing to. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3036	Posted - 2014.09.03 16:08:00 - [407] - Quote Meee One wrote: Stats can be changed via hotfix,so can bonuses. Remember charlie? Assaults got eHP,slots,and a new bonus to grenade fitting. "Necessity" when it's used as he has in that sentence means "we know the problems we just don't care,we like assaults more". So yes,in a single hotfix, CCP can easily buff logistics. At this point they are simply refusing to. Incremental changes. Don't cry because you're not first in line.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2799	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:12:00 - [408] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Meee One wrote: Stats can be changed via hotfix,so can bonuses. Remember charlie? Assaults got eHP,slots,and a new bonus to grenade fitting. "Necessity" when it's used as he has in that sentence means "we know the problems we just don't care,we like assaults more". So yes,in a single hotfix, CCP can easily buff logistics. At this point they are simply refusing to. Incremental changes. Don't cry because you're not first in line. That very conversation is key to the motive for this thread. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Kaze Eyrou Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 569	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:33:00 - [409] - Quote I wanted to post this in my own post without cluttering this thread, but I hit the character limit. Anyways, shameless post I just made on Active Scanners. I let the other post do the talking. Closed Beta Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 178	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:37:00 - [410] - Quote Ideas from various threads I just started. Regarding WP for slayers: Required in my opinion. Perhaps instead of just kills and kill assists, add perhaps similar to damage to vehicles. Get points for damage. Heavies do a lot of damage but don't always close the deal due to it being a very unique support role, i.e. you're a distraction, and or point defense, the people that flank are more likely to close the deal because after you damn near destroy someone they take cover almost dead and are promptly shot by your flanking units, heavies DO get screwed and points for damage dealt would help rectify that. Regarding scanners: Treat scanners similarly to repair tools, receive wp for time elapsed that enemy/enemies are scanned, and continue to receive intel kill assists. Alternate possibility, more wp received for smaller profile scanned over time. Thus encouraging higher quality scanners and more focused scanners. This will also help with the scout problem that lingers.(I hate scout if you didn't know and should so you can accurately judge my ideas) Scouts becoming valuable WPs for people that scan would encourage duvolle focused scanners to be used more often, requiring scouts to make their suits a bit more flimsy to get under scans. Regarding Softening the triage cap: True and the points for hives and scans should be vastly buffed, hell even the injector of they correct it still counting as a death even if you are picked up. However points do need to change to more reflect your contribution, if I repair 20,000 armor and 2000 of that was an 800 armor heavy and the rest was 500-600 armor mediums, then my score should reflect the saving of 38 suits(and don't forget that since we don't rep shields, so we are only working with half a suits ehp so you could essentially increase lives saved to damn near 50), that isn't including revives, links, kills, and all around support. Excluding farmers(that almost never happened with me because it's boring) people underestimate the contribution of what repping that much means. Reducing WP/sec and removing the cap would also be acceptable. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch

TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 5431	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:47:00 - [411] - Quote I SAY AGAIN, JUST IN CASE. MECHANIC POINTS FOR REPAIRING VEHICLES. TURRETS AND SUPPLY DEPOTS, CRUS ETC. TAKE THE TRIARGE MECHANIC, APPLY IT TO THE ABOVE THINGS, RENAME THE TRIARGE POINTS AS MECHANIC POINTS!. PLEASE!. My hometown beat Manchester united. Git gud man utd. 4-0
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1070	Posted - 2014.09.03 20:11:00 - [412] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Meee One wrote: Stats can be changed via hotfix,so can bonuses. Remember charlie? Assaults got eHP,slots,and a new bonus to grenade fitting. "Necessity" when it's used as he has in that sentence means "we know the problems we just don't care,we like assaults more". So yes,in a single hotfix, CCP can easily buff logistics. At this point they are simply refusing to. Incremental changes. Don't cry because you're not first in line. Lol 'first in line'. Logistics was straight up ignored or even nerfed the last few "updates". EVERY suit BUT logistics has gotten buffed. It IS logistics turn. Stop trying to act mature and actually be mature for a change. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1672	Posted - 2014.09.03 20:23:00 - [413] - Quote Name me a suit outside logistics that has not been altered since Rattati came along. Only one I can think of is commandos, and I don't count the color change. Shoot Scout with yes.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 294	Posted - 2014.09.03 20:23:00 - [414] - Quote Man, you guys got all bent up about spam and spam solutions when I stated and have restated that the raising of SP cost to enter Logistics would have a peripheral, ie. in addition to, benefit in limiting spam. Go back and read the first couple of pages of this thread and the countless other thread posted about buffing Logi stats. Pay close attention to the critisisms, to the posters talking about useless logis, spamming logis, WP whoring logis and how we don't desrve to be on equal footing in the battlefield because of those poor examples of logis behave. This idea is to address THAT. John Demonsbane wrote: I gotta go with Adam of Eve here. Not that el operators sentiment is wrong, but I really don't think the proposal will have the desired effect. Like i said earlier, I think what you will end up doing is adding a barrier to new players who night want to play logistics without discouraging spammers. The key question is this: What about unlocking logi suits at level 5 prevents someone from simply skilling to level 3 in uplinks. making two scout fits with different combinations of links, and then simply dropping 5-6 uplinks before swapping out to their go-to brick tanked slayer scout fit? (The correct answer is nothing) DUDE. Your "counter-argument" PROVES MY CONCEPT. The spammer, who wants to spam NOT spend, instead of grabbing an easily accessible logi frame of his choice, instead grabs a scout suit. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, LOGI SPAM DETERRED. The spammer now spams 2/3 the equip he would have, the spammed equipment is 0 bonused since it came off a scout and not a logi, and ultimately he likely receives fewer WP for his spamming effort since his equip spammed is lower quality and quantity than if he'd done it from a logi frame. And maybe, just maybe when spammer finds his spam rewards reduced he'll figure some sort of more worthwhile method of getting WP (like maybe hacking something?) and transition away from cheap spam tactics and into more relevant in-battle behaviour. And again, over and over, limiting equipment spamming is only ONE possible, partial benefit. Will newbros look at it and shake their heads? Sure. But if they're serious about coming logi then it won't really matter. The SERIOUS will still join. And the posers will find other pastures. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1071	Posted - 2014.09.03 20:51:00 - [415] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Man, you guys got all bent up about spam and spam solutions when I stated and have restated that the raising of SP cost to enter Logistics would have a peripheral, ie. in addition to, benefit in limiting spam. Go back and read the first couple of pages of this thread and the countless other thread posted about buffing Logi stats. Pay close attention to the critisisms, to the posters talking about useless logis, spamming logis, WP whoring logis and how we don't desrve to be on equal footing in the battlefield because of those poor examples of logis behave. This idea is to address THAT. John Demonsbane wrote: I gotta go with Adam of Eve here. Not that el operators sentiment is wrong, but I really don't think the proposal will have the desired effect. Like i said earlier, I think what you will end up doing is adding a barrier to new players who night want to play logistics without discouraging spammers. The key question is this: What about unlocking logi suits at level 5 prevents someone from simply skilling to level 3 in uplinks. making two scout fits with different combinations of links, and then simply dropping 5-6 uplinks before swapping out to their go-to brick tanked slayer scout fit? (The correct answer is nothing) DUDE. Your "counter-argument" PROVES MY CONCEPT. The spammer, who wants to spam NOT spend, instead of grabbing an easily accessible logi frame of his choice, instead grabs a scout suit. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, LOGI SPAM DETERRED. The spammer now spams 2/3 the equip he would have, the spammed equipment is 0 bonused since it came off a scout and not a logi, and ultimately he likely receives fewer WP for his spamming effort since his equip spammed is lower quality and quantity than if he'd done it from a logi frame. And maybe, just maybe when spammer finds his spam rewards reduced he'll figure some sort of more worthwhile method of getting WP (like maybe hacking something?) and transition away from cheap spam tactics and into more relevant in-battle behaviour. And again, over and over, limiting equipment spamming is only ONE possible, partial benefit. Will newbros look at it and shake their heads? Sure. But if they're serious about coming logi then it won't really matter. The SERIOUS will still join. And the posers will find other pastures. Serious question here... Are you blind? I mean seriously. Any time anyone on these forums talks about equipment they always equate it with logistics. In GD someone posted a video about a MLT frame spamming a MLT needle,then in their post said: "we need a way to punish careless logis". Even though logistics had nothing to do with it. Logistics has a bad stigma for no other reason than they're logistics. You preventing people from using logistics won't change that. Scouts will spam links and logistics will be blamed. Scouts will spam hives and logistics will be blamed. Logistics still will be blamed for the woes of lag even if there is only 1 on the field. I personally went into a match and was literally the only logistics,the match lagged badly and i received hate mail for eq spam(from enemies and allies), even though my X-3 quantums (only 2 deployed) couldn't have done it. I got that mail simply because my corp name had logistics in it. TL;DR people hate logistics because there has never been a pure support role in a FPS before and it scares them. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1072	Posted - 2014.09.03 21:08:00 - [416] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Name me a suit outside logistics that has not been altered since Rattati came along. Only one I can think of is commandos, and I don't count the color change. It's funny how pokey said "incremental changes". He must have forgotten the 150 eHP,extra slots,and grenade bonus assaults just got. None of that is "incremental",when combined it's actually quite extreme. Yet logistics must wait for these "incremental changes"? Lol. Truth is exposed,logistics isn't respected enough to receive the same kind of attention. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 294	Posted - 2014.09.03 21:10:00 - [417] - Quote Meee One wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Man, you guys got all bent up about spam and spam solutions when I stated and have restated that the raising of SP cost to enter Logistics would have a peripheral, ie. in addition to, benefit in limiting spam. Go back and read the first couple of pages of this thread and the countless other thread posted about buffing Logi stats. Pay close attention to the critisisms, to the posters talking about useless logis, spamming logis, WP whoring logis and how we don't desrve to be on equal footing in the battlefield because of those poor examples of logis behave. This idea is to address THAT. John Demonsbane wrote: I gotta go with Adam of Eve here. Not that el operators sentiment is wrong, but I really don't think the proposal will have the desired effect. Like i said earlier, I think what you will end up doing is adding a barrier to new players who night want to play logistics without discouraging spammers. The key question is this: What about unlocking logi suits at level 5 prevents someone from simply skilling to level 3 in uplinks. making two scout fits with different combinations of links, and then simply dropping 5-6 uplinks before swapping out to their go-to brick tanked slayer scout fit? (The correct answer is nothing) DUDE. Your "counter-argument" PROVES MY CONCEPT. The spammer, who wants to spam NOT spend, instead of grabbing an easily accessible logi frame of his choice, instead grabs a scout suit. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, LOGI SPAM DETERRED. The spammer now spams 2/3 the equip he would have, the spammed equipment is 0 bonused since it came off a scout and not a logi, and ultimately he likely receives fewer WP for his spamming effort since his equip spammed is lower quality and quantity than if he'd done it from a logi frame. And maybe, just maybe when spammer finds his spam rewards reduced he'll figure some sort of more worthwhile method of getting WP (like maybe hacking something?) and transition away from cheap spam tactics and into more relevant in-battle behaviour. And again, over and over, limiting equipment spamming is only ONE possible, partial benefit. Will newbros look at it and shake their heads? Sure. But if they're serious about coming logi then it won't really matter. The SERIOUS will still join. And the posers will find other pastures. Serious question here... Are you blind? I mean seriously. Any time anyone on these forums talks about equipment they always equate it with logistics. In GD someone posted a video about a MLT frame spamming a MLT needle,then in their post said: "we need a way to punish careless logis". Even though logistics had nothing to do with it. Logistics has a bad stigma for no other reason than they're logistics. You preventing people from using logistics won't change that. Scouts will spam links and logistics will be blamed. Scouts will spam hives and logistics will be blamed. Logistics still will be blamed for the woes of lag even if there is only 1 on the field. I personally went into a match and was literally the only logistics,the match lagged badly and i received hate mail for eq spam(from enemies and allies), even though my X-3 quantums (only 2 deployed) couldn't have done it. I got that mail simply because my corp name had logistics in it. TL;DR people hate logistics because there has never been a pure support role in a FPS before and it scares them. Look. Theres no curing " idiot". There is however limiting detrimental impact. Will people still blame whatever spectre that lives under their bed for whatever ails them regardless of what the SP entry is for logi? Sure, of course. But will making the logi frame a higher tier of unlock limit its use by abusers? Yes. Its a mentality thing and the more we do to keep the abusive mentality away from the frame the more likely we are to be able to have a competitive set of stats without huge swaths of the community justifiably complaining about it. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 294	Posted - 2014.09.03 21:12:00 - [418] - Quote Meee One wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Name me a suit outside logistics that has not been altered since Rattati came along. Only one I can think of is commandos, and I don't count the color change. It's funny how pokey said "incremental changes". He must have forgotten the 150 eHP,extra slots,and grenade bonus assaults just got. None of that is "incremental",when combined it's actually quite extreme. Yet logistics must wait for these "incremental changes"? Lol. Truth is exposed,logistics isn't respected enough to receive the same kind of attention. So lets earn some respect. Lets regulate our class and limit abusive access and watch our reputation change for the positive. Ain't no control greater than Self-Control. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2800	Posted - 2014.09.03 21:25:00 - [419] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Notice I said "CPMs that still play the game" I would like to propose that CPMs that have logged less than 5 hours in the past 3 months get their tags removed or at least have their vote taken away until they are back up to speed and know the current situation of the game. Side note I know. CPM does much more in the vein of gathering feedback than anything, while yes we do discuss things internally it is not really as if CCP puts ideas in front of the CPM and we vote them up or down, that's simply not how the process works. We are more of a conduit than a legislative body or something of that ilk. Just clarifying that, now back to reading through the thread again Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1072	Posted - 2014.09.03 21:34:00 - [420] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Name me a suit outside logistics that has not been altered since Rattati came along. Only one I can think of is commandos, and I don't count the color change. It's funny how pokey said "incremental changes". He must have forgotten the 150 eHP,extra slots,and grenade bonus assaults just got. None of that is "incremental",when combined it's actually quite extreme. Yet logistics must wait for these "incremental changes"? Lol. Truth is exposed,logistics isn't respected enough to receive the same kind of attention. So lets earn some respect. Lets regulate our class and limit abusive access and watch our reputation change for the positive. Ain't no control greater than Self-Control. Oh you and your misguided concepts. It wasn't the noobs that abused logistics,it was the vets. You know the ones that had lv 5 core skills like armor and shielding. The same ones that immediately skilled lv5 into scouts the day they came out. Increasing costs will ensure no new logistics,ever. But the FOTM vets won't have been effected. You're idea is as bad as removing class reps because lollogistics is surviving too long. And about "self-control" i have to restrain myself every day so i don't stack plates to be equal to basics. I would love to use biotics,but with my slower speed + low eHP plus needing to be 20m from the frontlines... Minassaults outrunning me with 2x my eHP... You see? Logistics is the one class that has no options but to use all their slots to stack eHP,because of all their flaws. Logistics can't run,hide,tank,rep tank... And yet rattatai is "intent on ending brick tanking". If logistics isn't buffed beforehand the entire class is screwed. But who cares amirite? Support shouldn't survive a single smg bullet let alone a CR burst. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.

Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1072	Posted - 2014.09.03 21:46:00 - [421] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Notice I said "CPMs that still play the game" I would like to propose that CPMs that have logged less than 5 hours in the past 3 months get their tags removed or at least have their vote taken away until they are back up to speed and know the current situation of the game. Side note I know. CPM does much more in the vein of gathering feedback than anything, while yes we do discuss things internally it is not really as if CCP puts ideas in front of the CPM and we vote them up or down, that's simply not how the process works. We are more of a conduit than a legislative body or something of that ilk. Just clarifying that, now back to reading through the thread again Cheers, Cross I just read: "We're free slave labor". But i don't blame you for CCP being obtuse about logistics. After hearing your personal opinions,i believe you are doing your best within the restraints you are given. And for that i say thanks Cross. o7 Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3961	Posted - 2014.09.03 21:54:00 - [422] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Man, you guys got all bent up about spam and spam solutions when I stated and have restated that the raising of SP cost to enter Logistics would have a peripheral, ie. in addition to, benefit in limiting spam. Go back and read the first couple of pages of this thread and the countless other thread posted about buffing Logi stats. Pay close attention to the critisisms, to the posters talking about useless logis, spamming logis, WP whoring logis and how we don't desrve to be on equal footing in the battlefield because of those poor examples of logis behave. This idea is to address THAT. John Demonsbane wrote: I gotta go with Adam of Eve here. Not that el operators sentiment is wrong, but I really don't think the proposal will have the desired effect. Like i said earlier, I think what you will end up doing is adding a barrier to new players who night want to play logistics without discouraging spammers. The key question is this: What about unlocking logi suits at level 5 prevents someone from simply skilling to level 3 in uplinks. making two scout fits with different combinations of links, and then simply dropping 5-6 uplinks before swapping out to their go-to brick tanked slayer scout fit? (The correct answer is nothing) LOL DUDE. Your "counter-argument" PROVES MY CONCEPT. The spammer, who wants to spam NOT spend, instead of grabbing an easily accessible logi frame of his choice, instead grabs a scout suit. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, LOGI SPAM DETERRED!! See wha' jus' hoppent thar'??!!?!? The spammer now spams 2/3 the equip he would have, the spammed equipment is 0 bonused since it came off a scout and not a logi, and ultimately he likely receives fewer WP for his spamming effort since his equip spammed is lower quality and quantity than if he'd done it from a logi frame. And maybe, just maybe when spammer finds his spam rewards reduced he'll figure some sort of more worthwhile method of getting WP (like maybe hacking something?) and transition away from cheap spam tactics and into more relevant in-battle behaviour. And again, over and over, limiting equipment spamming is only ONE possible, partial benefit. Will newbros look at it and shake their heads? Sure. But if they're serious about coming logi then it won't really matter. The SERIOUS will still join. And the posers will find other pastures. I don't see how that's true at all. Meee one, for all his/her rageposting, has a point. Nobody sees who drops all the uplinks. To be honest, I drop a prety good percentage of my uplinks from scout suits. In the minds of the logi-haters, equipment comes from logis. All spam is logi spam. Nothing is going to change that mindset, certainly not "making" people drop uplinks from non-logi suits, which a lot of people do anyway! Whatever moral victory you might be trying to claim won't have much practical value. Certainly not enough to justify putting the logi suits out of the reach of newer players. You're also making a lot of assumptions about player behavior. For one, pub spammers don't give a rats ass about how good their uplink is, they just want to farm. Exhibit A, the morons who drop std uplinks literally right on top of my Amarr-powered flux uplinks every time theres a triple SP week. It's like clockwork. You think they care if the uplink they just dropped has a bonus apllied to it? For them, the only advantage to higher teir uplinks is that you can use moar. And if you think that only having 2 equipment slots is going to make them suddenly feel like placing uplinks just isn't worth it, I'm going to actually push the objective and fight from the very second the match starts, then I don't know what to tell you other than you have a LOT more faith in the average blueberry than I do. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 294	Posted - 2014.09.03 22:05:00 - [423] - Quote Meee One wrote: Oh you and your misguided concepts. It wasn't the noobs that abused logistics,it was the vets. You know the ones that had lv 5 core skills like armor and shielding. The same ones that immediately skilled lv5 into scouts the day they came out. Increasing costs will ensure no new logistics,ever. But the FOTM vets won't have been effected. You're idea is as bad as removing class reps because lollogistics is surviving too long. And about "self-control" i have to restrain myself every day so i don't stack plates to be equal to basics. I would love to use biotics,but with my slower speed + low eHP plus needing to be 20m from the frontlines... Minassaults outrunning me with 2x my eHP... You see? Logistics is the one class that has no options but to use all their slots to stack eHP,because of all their flaws. Logistics can't run,hide,tank,rep tank... And yet rattatai is "intent on ending brick tanking". If logistics isn't buffed beforehand the entire class is screwed. But who cares amirite? Support shouldn't survive a single smg bullet let alone a CR burst. I'm hesitant to address this directly, you're not realizing it but your tone is getting worse and worse. Might be time to just turn the forums off for a couple days, I did and feel much better..... ANYWAYS- Vets will do whatever they can afford to do. They're vets. They reap the benefit of early game entry vs. you or I the same way you or I reap the benefit of our skilling when we fight against true newbs in pubs. My cores are maxed. All of them. My STARTER fits are significantly more potent than a 2nd hour newbs are. This is working as intended. -A limit to entry on the frame isn't going to dissuade vets, likely true. -A limit to entry on the frame is going to make a newb stop and consider whether logistics is what he actually wants to do, also likely true. -A limit to entry on the frame is going to make a newb who doesn't want to logi but wants to farm WP to get SP to then get a different fit altogether not go logi, is also likely true. -A limit to entry then limits the number of actual logis available making logis more valuable to teams in general, is also likely true. -A limit to entry keeps the logi from being the spammable abuse ***** it can be now, also very likely to be true. Considered objectively in its full context this idea is long overdue. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 294	Posted - 2014.09.03 22:28:00 - [424] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Man, you guys got all bent up about spam and spam solutions when I stated and have restated that the raising of SP cost to enter Logistics would have a peripheral, ie. in addition to, benefit in limiting spam. Go back and read the first couple of pages of this thread and the countless other thread posted about buffing Logi stats. Pay close attention to the critisisms, to the posters talking about useless logis, spamming logis, WP whoring logis and how we don't desrve to be on equal footing in the battlefield because of those poor examples of logis behave. This idea is to address THAT. John Demonsbane wrote: I gotta go with Adam of Eve here. Not that el operators sentiment is wrong, but I really don't think the proposal will have the desired effect. Like i said earlier, I think what you will end up doing is adding a barrier to new players who night want to play logistics without discouraging spammers. The key question is this: What about unlocking logi suits at level 5 prevents someone from simply skilling to level 3 in uplinks. making two scout fits with different combinations of links, and then simply dropping 5-6 uplinks before swapping out to their go-to brick tanked slayer scout fit? (The correct answer is nothing) LOL DUDE. Your "counter-argument" PROVES MY CONCEPT. The spammer, who wants to spam NOT spend, instead of grabbing an easily accessible logi frame of his choice, instead grabs a scout suit. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, LOGI SPAM DETERRED!! See wha' jus' hoppent thar'??!!?!? The spammer now spams 2/3 the equip he would have, the spammed equipment is 0 bonused since it came off a scout and not a logi, and ultimately he likely receives fewer WP for his spamming effort since his equip spammed is lower quality and quantity than if he'd done it from a logi frame. And maybe, just maybe when spammer finds his spam rewards reduced he'll figure some sort of more worthwhile method of getting WP (like maybe hacking something?) and transition away from cheap spam tactics and into more relevant in-battle behaviour. And again, over and over, limiting equipment spamming is only ONE possible, partial benefit. Will newbros look at it and shake their heads? Sure. But if they're serious about coming logi then it won't really matter. The SERIOUS will still join. And the posers will find other pastures. I don't see how that's true at all. Your "concept" won't have the impact you think it will. Meee one, for all his/her rageposting, has a point. Nobody sees (or cares) who drops all the uplinks. In the minds of the logi-haters, equipment comes from logis. All spam is logi spam. Nothing is going to change that mindset, certainly not "making" people drop uplinks from non-logi suits, which a lot of people do anyway! To be honest, I drop a prety good percentage of my uplinks from scout suits. Whatever moral victory you might be trying to claim won't have much practical value. Certainly not enough to justify putting the logi suits out of the reach of newer players. You're also making a lot of assumptions about player behavior. For one, pub spammers don't give a rats ass about how good their uplink is, they just want to farm. Exhibit A, the morons who drop std uplinks literally right on top of my Amarr-powered flux uplinks every time theres a triple SP week. It's like clockwork. You think they care if the uplink they just dropped has a bonus apllied to it? For them, the only advantage to higher teir uplinks is that you can use moar. And if you think that only having 2 equipment slots is going to make them suddenly feel like placing uplinks just isn't worth it, I'm going to actually push the objective and fight from the very second the match starts, then I don't know what to tell you other than you have a LOT more faith in the average blueberry than I do. Every suit that has equipment slots is eligible to drop links, hives, use needles, scanners, REs, PEs and whatever fancy box CCP releases next. Being able to drop from 2 slots versus 3 or 4 tho DOES make a difference. You nailed it, pub spammers don't give a rats ass. All the more reason then that WE SHOULD. Logi suits won't be "out of reach", noobs will just have to be willing to reach higher. And quite frankly if, as a noob, they don't have the tolerance for a couple extra hundred thousand SP to get in then they're really not ready for the role and the associated costs, forget SP for equip, what about SP for the cores? For CPU and PG which any REAL logi has MAXED? etc etc etc If they want it, its there. If they don't, they'll know. And rest of us can quit living with the backlash having a bunch of suit tourists creates. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3048	Posted - 2014.09.03 22:30:00 - [425] - Quote Meee One wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Meee One wrote: Stats can be changed via hotfix,so can bonuses. Remember charlie? Assaults got eHP,slots,and a new bonus to grenade fitting. "Necessity" when it's used as he has in that sentence means "we know the problems we just don't care,we like assaults more". So yes,in a single hotfix, CCP can easily buff logistics. At this point they are simply refusing to. Incremental changes. Don't cry because you're not first in line. Lol 'first in line'. Logistics was straight up ignored or even nerfed the last few "updates". EVERY suit BUT logistics has gotten buffed. It IS logistics turn. Stop trying to act mature and actually be mature for a change. Probably because the other suits were in more desperate need of an update than the Logistics were. Do you mean to tell me that the Assault, a suit that was basically never seen until this last update, was in less need of a change than the Logistics? Also, every suit? When was the last time the Commando was buffed? Please set your overly biased opinions aside so we can be constructive here, and less "OMG WHY WONT YOU GIVE ME WHAT I WANT FIRST OVER WHAT OTHER PEOPLE WANT?!" I guess your name really hit yours attitude perfectly "MEEE!!! MEEE!!!!!! WHAT ABOUT MEEEE?!" Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 651	Posted - 2014.09.03 23:46:00 - [426] - Quote Thanks for all of your feedback, guys.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 295	Posted - 2014.09.04 00:01:00 - [427] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Thanks for all of your feedback, guys. lol, we're just getting warmed up in here. We still need to : Theorycraft some new base movement stats. Debate their merits. Debate their drawbacks. Theorycraft new stats based on the previous theorycrafted set. Debate the merits of those. Debate the drawbacks of those. Debate the merits between both sets. Be interrupted by some outlandish suggestion like, "Squads of 6 is OP, reduce to squad of 4" Debate the outlandish theory. Theorycraft a different solution to the outlandish theory. Debate the new theorycrafted solution versus the original idea. lather, rinse, repeat By the time this thread is "done" it'll be its own planet in Molden Heath and have districts. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2801	Posted - 2014.09.04 01:58:00 - [428] - Quote Meee One wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Name me a suit outside logistics that has not been altered since Rattati came along. Only one I can think of is commandos, and I don't count the color change. It's funny how pokey said "incremental changes". He must have forgotten the 150 eHP,extra slots,and grenade bonus assaults just got. None of that is "incremental",when combined it's actually quite extreme. Yet logistics must wait for these "incremental changes"? Lol. Truth is exposed,logistics isn't respected enough to receive the same kind of attention. Incremental changes are a game wide assessment, not a per frame assessment, the CPM is very aware of the need to give support play some attention and has been vocal on the subject. Consider the recent hotfix thread and the narrative regarding injectors, that is only one aspect in the process of course, but proper balance is iterative not sweeping (generally speaking). So, yes, as it has happened the logi pass, as well as the support pass (which overlaps but isn't entirely identical) are still upcoming rather than already done but that does not indicate a lack of attention and at present I have no reason to believe that such changes would not be forthcoming. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2801	Posted - 2014.09.04 01:59:00 - [429] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: SirManBoy wrote: Thanks for all of your feedback, guys. lol, we're just getting warmed up in here. We still need to : Theorycraft some new base movement stats. Debate their merits. Debate their drawbacks. Theorycraft new stats based on the previous theorycrafted set. Debate the merits of those. Debate the drawbacks of those. Debate the merits between both sets. Be interrupted by some outlandish suggestion like, "Squads of 6 is OP, reduce to squad of 4" Debate the outlandish theory. Theorycraft a different solution to the outlandish theory. Debate the new theorycrafted solution versus the original idea. lather, rinse, repeat By the time this thread is "done" it'll be its own planet in Molden Heath and have districts. I look forward to it, especially the creation and population of Logi Prime once we reach critical mass See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13189	Posted - 2014.09.04 02:01:00 - [430] - Quote Logistic Suits - DO NOT need more EHP - Logisitics Suits need to be incentivised to use utility modules and not EHP stack - Logistics Role Bonuses should emphasis the role and be unilateral, especially in the case of the Rep tool bonuses, as no one race in EVE dominates remote reps. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2801	Posted - 2014.09.04 03:41:00 - [431] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Logistic Suits - DO NOT need more EHP - Logisitics Suits need to be incentivised to use utility modules and not EHP stack - Logistics Role Bonuses should emphasis the role and be unilateral, especially in the case of the Rep tool bonuses, as no one race in EVE dominates remote reps. Please elaborate in detail on points one and two because at present they seem to be in contradiction to each other. Looking forward to your reply Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 390	Posted - 2014.09.04 03:58:00 - [432] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: True Adamance wrote: Logistic Suits - DO NOT need more EHP - Logisitics Suits need to be incentivised to use utility modules and not EHP stack - Logistics Role Bonuses should emphasis the role and be unilateral, especially in the case of the Rep tool bonuses, as no one race in EVE dominates remote reps. Please elaborate in detail on points one and two because at present they seem to be in contradiction to each other. Looking forward to your reply Cheers, Cross Amarrians are such contraries... Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2801	Posted - 2014.09.04 04:17:00 - [433] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross CCP Rattati wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I take it all logistics will be looked at separately eventually (When is that by the way? Wasn't it slated for delta alongside commandos?) Aside from that it looks pretty okay. CCP Rattati wrote: Hotfix Delta or later Sidearm rebalance Sniper Rifle review Efficacy bonuses Further slot based PG/CPU updates based on necessity, Scouts, Commandos, Logistics From this i take it there is no necessity to look at the logi/support role in Dust. As 'necessity' deems it ok, that is despite the number of issues raised here in this thread and in others over the last year. Is it that none of these issues can be resolved via hotfixes ? This is more a case of the iterative or incremental approach to balance. CCP Rattati in all my conversations with him has been very dedicated to the idea of doing more effective, measured, balancing rather than the sweeping changes which have happened during much of Dusts history. I can see how in this context the phrasing may be confusing but don't read too much into it, conversations regarding the state of support generally and more specifically equipment and the logistics frame, are ongoing. Indeed this thread is part of that initiative that SMB and I specifically, and the CPM generally, are involved in currently. So please, continue to use this thread and provide feedback. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 225	Posted - 2014.09.04 05:38:00 - [434] - Quote Thanks for the response and clarification Cross. It seemed weird the way it come across especially in light of this thread and I know sometimes Rattati comes across short and to the point Anyway i've been trying these brick tank logis that everyone says they see and I can honestly say that I ******* hate them. How any body manages to play logi waddling around like a crap heavy with EQ slots is beyond me, i have been getting my arse handed to me ( more than normal ) back to kincats for me before i loose the will to logi. Quick one while i'm here, over the last week I've noticed an annoying trend. Mainly the mass spam of uplinks in just about every conceivable location, by that i mean worse than normal. I was wondering whether this was linked to the increase in WP requirement for OB's and organised squads trying to milk every last WP to get an OB? Unintended side effect or my bad luck in running into uplink spamming squads. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1074	Posted - 2014.09.04 06:00:00 - [435] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Meee One wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Meee One wrote: Stats can be changed via hotfix,so can bonuses. Remember charlie? Assaults got eHP,slots,and a new bonus to grenade fitting. "Necessity" when it's used as he has in that sentence means "we know the problems we just don't care,we like assaults more". So yes,in a single hotfix, CCP can easily buff logistics. At this point they are simply refusing to. Incremental changes. Don't cry because you're not first in line. Lol 'first in line'. Logistics was straight up ignored or even nerfed the last few "updates". EVERY suit BUT logistics has gotten buffed. It IS logistics turn. Stop trying to act mature and actually be mature for a change. Probably because the other suits were in more desperate need of an update than the Logistics were. Do you mean to tell me that the Assault, a suit that was basically never seen until this last update, was in less need of a change than the Logistics? Also, every suit? When was the last time the Commando was buffed? Please set your overly biased opinions aside so we can be constructive here, and less "OMG WHY WONT YOU GIVE ME WHAT I WANT FIRST OVER WHAT OTHER PEOPLE WANT?!" I guess your name really hit yours attitude perfectly "MEEE!!! MEEE!!!!!! WHAT ABOUT MEEEE?!" Another insult? Nothing constructive left? Yes,my handle is meee one. I am so glad you can read. (-ía¦Å¦»-ía¦Å) Assaults have had their turn,and now that it's logistics turn,you're all up in arms? And as for lolmandos...they aren't even to be slated in Dust on PC. But on PS3 Dust they do need a buff. But heres the funny thing...i don't use lolmandos so i would have no right suggesting for them. I use logistics, which is why i know what's needed for logistics. Only an idiot would suggest changes to a suit they don't use. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1074	Posted - 2014.09.04 06:25:00 - [436] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Logistic Suits - DO NOT need more EHP - Logisitics Suits need to be incentivised to use utility modules and not EHP stack - Logistics Role Bonuses should emphasis the role and be unilateral, especially in the case of the Rep tool bonuses, as no one race in EVE dominates remote reps. -Agreed -Can't be done unless logistics has a base stat to a high enough degree to compensate for that lost eHP (speed and stamina,for example) -Agreed sort of...you have to take into consideration the players that skilled a certain suit because of the bonus. Seeing as i skilled into Min for the rep bonus...coming from Gal,learning shields suck. Then seeing the suit i left for this weaker one get the bonus i skilled out of it for? Yes, i would be incredibly upset. I would be stuck with a slower scout,when Gal has better survivability. Lesser bonuses would be better. Any buffs to logistics would make them better,specific buffs would make them specialists. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1074	Posted - 2014.09.04 06:45:00 - [437] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: True Adamance wrote: Logistic Suits - DO NOT need more EHP - Logisitics Suits need to be incentivised to use utility modules and not EHP stack - Logistics Role Bonuses should emphasis the role and be unilateral, especially in the case of the Rep tool bonuses, as no one race in EVE dominates remote reps. Please elaborate in detail on points one and two because at present they seem to be in contradiction to each other. Looking forward to your reply Cheers, Cross I'm afraid he can't do that. In previous threads he's tried to have logistics stripped of grenades and stuck with sidearms. Even championing slot reduction with 0 buffs. He has no valid reason(s). It's as i have said before,the concept of support is new and scary in the FPS genre. So his instinctive response is to kill it,or have it be easily killed. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1074	Posted - 2014.09.04 07:11:00 - [438] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: Oh you and your misguided concepts. It wasn't the noobs that abused logistics,it was the vets. You know the ones that had lv 5 core skills like armor and shielding. The same ones that immediately skilled lv5 into scouts the day they came out. Increasing costs will ensure no new logistics,ever. But the FOTM vets won't have been effected. You're idea is as bad as removing class reps because lollogistics is surviving too long. And about "self-control" i have to restrain myself every day so i don't stack plates to be equal to basics. I would love to use biotics,but with my slower speed + low eHP plus needing to be 20m from the frontlines... Minassaults outrunning me with 2x my eHP... You see? Logistics is the one class that has no options but to use all their slots to stack eHP,because of all their flaws. Logistics can't run,hide,tank,rep tank... And yet rattatai is "intent on ending brick tanking". If logistics isn't buffed beforehand the entire class is screwed. But who cares amirite? Support shouldn't survive a single smg bullet let alone a CR burst. I'm hesitant to address this directly, you're not realizing it but your tone is getting worse and worse. Might be time to just turn the forums off for a couple days, I did and feel much better..... ANYWAYS- Vets will do whatever they can afford to do. They're vets. They reap the benefit of early game entry vs. you or I the same way you or I reap the benefit of our skilling when we fight against true newbs in pubs. My cores are maxed. All of them. My STARTER fits are significantly more potent than a 2nd hour newbs are. This is working as intended. -A limit to entry on the frame isn't going to dissuade vets, likely true. -A limit to entry on the frame is going to make a newb stop and consider whether logistics is what he actually wants to do, also likely true. -A limit to entry on the frame is going to make a newb who doesn't want to logi but wants to farm WP to get SP to then get a different fit altogether not go logi, is also likely true. -A limit to entry then limits the number of actual logis available making logis more valuable to teams in general, is also likely true. -A limit to entry keeps the logi from being the spammable abuse ***** it can be now, also very likely to be true. Considered objectively in its full context this idea is long overdue. Yeah....i think i'll take a break from posting. Also,don't be a coward. If i'm being unreasonable or asinine call me on it. I would however like a (legit) reason to go along with that calling.(As you have done here.) I guess i'm just getting drained trying to explain to logi-haters how valuable support is. That a single skilled logistics can turn a battle around,if they could live long enough to make it to the combat zone... But all i get is boatloads of sarcasm. ANYWAYS-Limits in a game like Dust is bad. Don't forget the endgame,connecting to EVE online for galaxy wide domination. By creating barriers in what players can do now,you create invisible walls you can't cross later. As much as a logi with a sniper rifle may annoy me,i understand that later on it may have a natural counter...like mortar barrages. There are certain things that do require limits for the players own good,but suit access isn't one of them. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3052	Posted - 2014.09.04 07:20:00 - [439] - Quote Meee One wrote: EVERY suit BUT logistics has gotten buffed. Meee One wrote: And as for lolmandos...they aren't even to be slated in Dust on PC. But on PS3 Dust they do need a buff. But heres the funny thing...i don't use lolmandos so i would have no right suggesting for them. I use logistics, which is why i know what's needed for logistics. Only an idiot would suggest changes to a suit they don't use. So.... "Every suit except the Logistics......oh and the Commandos but I don't know anything about those so I cant comment so I'll just pretend they're not there and spout on about how CCP has some deep hatred and are singling out Logis only even though other suits have yet to get a balance pass as well." ? That about right? Cross Atu wrote: Incremental changes are a game wide assessment, not a per frame assessment, the CPM is very aware of the need to give support play some attention and has been vocal on the subject. Consider the recent hotfix thread and the narrative regarding injectors, that is only one aspect in the process of course, but proper balance is iterative not sweeping (generally speaking). So, yes, as it has happened the logi pass, as well as the support pass (which overlaps but isn't entirely identical) are still upcoming rather than already done but that does not indicate a lack of attention and at present I have no reason to believe that such changes would not be forthcoming. Cheers, Cross Thank you Cross for confirming what we already know, but some refuse to believe. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3964	Posted - 2014.09.04 07:31:00 - [440] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Thanks for the response and clarification Cross. It seemed weird the way it come across especially in light of this thread and I know sometimes Rattati comes across short and to the point Anyway i've been trying these brick tank logis that everyone says they see and I can honestly say that I ******* hate them. How any body manages to play logi waddling around like a crap heavy with EQ slots is beyond me, i have been getting my arse handed to me ( more than normal ) back to kincats for me before i loose the will to logi. Quick one while i'm here, over the last week I've noticed an annoying trend. Mainly the mass spam of uplinks in just about every conceivable location, by that i mean worse than normal. I was wondering whether this was linked to the increase in WP requirement for OB's and organised squads trying to milk every last WP to get an OB? Unintended side effect or my bad luck in running into uplink spamming squads. Triple SP event. Uplink spam gets ludicrous. You can set your watch to it. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 390	Posted - 2014.09.04 12:19:00 - [441] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Thanks for the response and clarification Cross. It seemed weird the way it come across especially in light of this thread and I know sometimes Rattati comes across short and to the point Anyway i've been trying these brick tank logis that everyone says they see and I can honestly say that I ******* hate them. How any body manages to play logi waddling around like a crap heavy with EQ slots is beyond me, i have been getting my arse handed to me ( more than normal ) back to kincats for me before i loose the will to logi. Quick one while i'm here, over the last week I've noticed an annoying trend. Mainly the mass spam of uplinks in just about every conceivable location, by that i mean worse than normal. I was wondering whether this was linked to the increase in WP requirement for OB's and organised squads trying to milk every last WP to get an OB? Unintended side effect or my bad luck in running into uplink spamming squads. Triple SP event. Uplink spam gets ludicrous. You can set your watch to it. Pretty sure that confirms the rewards from Uplink are (slightly) too rich - considering they are a drop and forget equipment. Suggest slightly reducing their rewards from 25 to 20 per spawn to balance out. (Higher tier equipment still benefits for of faster spawn times.) Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3968	Posted - 2014.09.04 12:32:00 - [442] - Quote How does it confirm anything?... people farm vehicle damage points too. Should we take that away? (The godfather of tactical logistics)
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 390	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:40:00 - [443] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: How does it confirm anything?... people farm vehicle damage points too. Should we take that away? Action + result + repeatability = confirmation People farming vehicle damage is a different issue... And I never suggested taking anything away, just to balance the rewards from related actions. (Amarrs is so tricksy.) Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3053	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:21:00 - [444] - Quote We'd have to see if reduction to the WP rewards on Uplinks is even possible. I have my doubts since we found out recently that the rewards for Injectors could not be changed. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 226	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:25:00 - [445] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: We'd have to see if reduction to the WP rewards on Uplinks is even possible. I have my doubts since we found out recently that the rewards for Injectors could not be changed. Wasnt that scaled WP's ? Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2530	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:28:00 - [446] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: True Adamance wrote: Logistic Suits - DO NOT need more EHP - Logisitics Suits need to be incentivised to use utility modules and not EHP stack - Logistics Role Bonuses should emphasis the role and be unilateral, especially in the case of the Rep tool bonuses, as no one race in EVE dominates remote reps. Please elaborate in detail on points one and two because at present they seem to be in contradiction to each other. Looking forward to your reply Cheers, Cross Let me take a stab at this. Point 1: Logis can tank stack. They have the option to roll a heavy EHP buffer at the cost of equipment utility. Adding EHP runs back into this issue. If they use tanking modules they can be hard to kill (I see a lot of logistics suit snipers for this reason). Point 2: There's little/no reason for a logistics to rock KinCats, precision mods, cardiac regulators, etc. Because they do not provide a lot of utility (just some) there is little to no reason for a logi to choose them over a armor plate, rep or shield mod. Further, only the Gallente Logi can be specced to detect scouts. Since EWAR/Detection/Dampening is a simple binary Yes/No with no margin for error (you either never see them, or always see them) there is no reason to try to use a logistics as a detection platform. Point 3: I think he's full of it here. There's a lot of room for logi specialization here without homogenization. If we were to apply a logi role bonus to each race Gallente could get +repair cycle speed, Minmatar get + amount, caldari get +range and amarr get... shot. Ok not the last but you get the idea. Honestly I'm of the opinion that Logis are TOO pigeonholed largely. They need to have advantages and disadvantages along similar veins that are universal. Gallente: 5% reduction to equipment cycle time per level Caldari: +5% to equipment effect range per level (hive radius, rep tool range, etc.) Minmatar: +5% to amount of equipment benefit (ammo per hive cycle, armor repped, etc.) Amarr: +1 equipment carried per level (not necessarily deployable at the same time)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2530	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:30:00 - [447] - Quote I'd like to see certain pieces of equipment given better utility to make them as useful as hives and droplinks. The recent change to needles idea is one I can get behind. makes needles a lot more useful. But the droplink/armor hive meta needs to be broken.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3053	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:19:00 - [448] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: We'd have to see if reduction to the WP rewards on Uplinks is even possible. I have my doubts since we found out recently that the rewards for Injectors could not be changed. Wasnt that scaled WP's ? Possibly, I'm just saying stuff like that may be more difficult to do than it seems. Not saying Im against the idea. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 226	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:55:00 - [449] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: We'd have to see if reduction to the WP rewards on Uplinks is even possible. I have my doubts since we found out recently that the rewards for Injectors could not be changed. Wasnt that scaled WP's ? Possibly, I'm just saying stuff like that may be more difficult to do than it seems. Not saying Im against the idea. I agree with you in regards of it may be difficult but that obviously depends on what they do. That is the tricky part. Going to mull over a few ideas and maybe post them on here if i am happy with it. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 390	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:57:00 - [450] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: We'd have to see if reduction to the WP rewards on Uplinks is even possible. I have my doubts since we found out recently that the rewards for Injectors could not be changed. Boo. Hiss. *throws popcorn Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3053	Posted - 2014.09.04 17:13:00 - [451] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: We'd have to see if reduction to the WP rewards on Uplinks is even possible. I have my doubts since we found out recently that the rewards for Injectors could not be changed. Boo. Hiss. *throws popcorn Yeah I know, sad times. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 69	Posted - 2014.09.04 17:26:00 - [452] - Quote Question: Could you change the Minmatar suit to a sapper and somehow make Proximity mines explode based on Signature Profile instead of just on vehicles (Giving the Minmatar Logi a bonus to proxy mine triggers and explosion Radius of REs). (For something in the future, not necessarily a hotfix) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3053	Posted - 2014.09.04 17:47:00 - [453] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Question: Could you change the Minmatar suit to a sapper and somehow make Proximity mines explode based on Signature Profile instead of just on vehicles (Giving the Minmatar Logi a bonus to proxy mine triggers and explosion Radius of REs). (For something in the future, not necessarily a hotfix) I've suggested something similar in the past. +1 Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3968	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:00:00 - [454] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: How does it confirm anything?... people farm vehicle damage points too. Should we take that away? Action + result + repeatability = confirmation People farming vehicle damage is a different issue... And I never suggested taking anything away, just to balance the rewards from related actions. (Amarrs is so tricksy.) Your missing one important variable in your equation there: Triple SP event. Not a good basis for far-reaching gameplay decisions. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1042	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:30:00 - [455] - Quote Late to the party, didn't read all the juicy goodness before so bear with me. This is just my opinion to the original OP over the time I've played. Started in beta as heavy, went into logi and feel in love since. Proto Min/Amarr Logi, ADV Cal Logi/Min Assault/Sentinel/Commando/Scout I'm squishy and that never bothered me much. I learned that with the right team that takes care of you (and you them), that hardly ever seems to matter. However, without a squad, the logi role almost seems completely invalidated (or even with a disorganized squad) Which I feel adds good chemistry to teamwork. I used to stack nothing buy plates on my suit. That mostly was a combination of: I'm a bad shot (you have no idea how bad...) I needed the buffer due to the extremely low ttk back then (after the extremely long ttk phase) what else was I supposed to fit in those slots when it was one of the most important core skills to get up first I've gotten better at the first, though not by much (still REALLY bad....) My situational awareness has gotten extremely better now that scannerinas are out (myself included) and profile is in (plus looking around like a paranoid schizophrenic). I still feel this is a bit true still. With profile becoming such a huge component, I have been utilizing those modules more so at least some of my high slots are finally having something else to fill. As far as what we can and cannot fit, I'm completely ok with Logi's getting away with fitting a cloak. Even commandos. Part of the reason I loved this game in the beginning was the ability to fit anything you wanted to conform to your play style. I appreciate the extreme fitting requirement as I feel that helps deter people from excelling in a role that suit wasn't intended to fill but still provides LOLs. It gives suits purpose and incentive to want them. The bonuses to each individual suit I find are only worth while in highly competitive environments, IE: PC. I have 4 PC Logi fittings. They are all worth more than 225,000 ISK a piece. They do their job well and sure, I could use a lower tier standard logi and still reap the benefits of my proto skill. However, in a regular pub match, that almost never seems like a concern for me. Even links. Were I even tempted to bring out an Amarr logi right now, even standard, you probably wouldn't be able to even SEE my 3 second uplink in the sea of uplinks available unless I'm the ONLY one putting them down. As far as how I feel the logi class stands today: I use my scout to do more logi-ing today than I do my Logi suits. My scout can tank armor and shields if I wanted it to as much as my logi can. My scout can get uplinks where I need them faster and more 'quietly' scan wise than my logi can. My scout can hold 2 of the important 4 EQ that my logi can. I have 2 fits for each situation. My scout by default can scan my surroundings better than my logi ever will as was its intended purpose. Therefore, in a world where I can lose a 60k-70k logi suit vs lose a 12k-30k scout suit in 1-2 shotgun shots and accomplish the same thing, I'm more likely to choose the latter. Now, that doesn't mean I've completely abandoned my logi suit. I still use it, even in pubs, but there comes a threshold of environment + number of enemy scouts + team competence that necessitates that the logi would almost never be worth what the scout can accomplish. That's not necessarily 'wrong' just smart adapting but still feels as if the scout might have a little too much benefit from logi style that it shouldn't. What I do feel is incorrect about the logis is the comparison it has to its other suit counterparts. They are completely unequal. I see a far benefit of the Min/Amarr logis over the bonuses of the Gal/Cal logi bonuses. What needs to happen, I'm not quite sure, but I personally stopped skilling into all of the Logi suits simply because I saw no benefit for my team. Cal gets bonus to nanohive: I put them down, someone eats a little and then we leave and/or they die. I put them down, they get destroyed by flux I put them down and maybe I get 50 points IF 5 ppl need my hive and/or ~3 enter AND return after a set amount of time for more. In most cases, my assaults/scouts/commando is already carrying a nanohive leaving me to just deal with rep and needle Gal gets bonus to scans: I can't even tell you how worthless this seems right now in the world of profiling. Get a proto suit THEN a proto EQ or just go get a proto scout suit and reap benefits. If I'm going to spend 2 millions points for a proto suit, I don't see how Gal Logi is the winner over Gal Scout and definitely don't see the benefit over any other EQ item that has much more direct and immediate impact for the team, especially if the team already has a scout. TLDR, I don't think slots and sidearms and eHP is the thing we're needing to consider right now. I don't even think they need comparing to assaults or scouts right now either. I think adjusting the bonuses is what's important first and foremost. Until the bonuses make each racial shine in its own right, we can start to see better numbers/data that shape future decisions that affect the role as a whole. As far as scouts go, I'm fine with them running our EQ, but feel they need a slight bit of fitting penalty to using EQ. Same for most all suits really. It needs to be enough to offset 'do i want to tank, do I want to support or do I want to be sneaky). I don't think all 3 of those should be possible in one package. I think they need a revisit on their penalty to profile for plates but that's a different discussion than what this thread is supposed to cover. Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 391	Posted - 2014.09.05 03:13:00 - [456] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: How does it confirm anything?... people farm vehicle damage points too. Should we take that away? Action + result + repeatability = confirmation People farming vehicle damage is a different issue... And I never suggested taking anything away, just to balance the rewards from related actions. (Amarrs is so tricksy.) Your missing one important variable in your equation there: Triple SP event. Not a good basis for far-reaching gameplay decisions. No. It just makes for a larger sample size and further confirms the issue. You said as much yourself... The first thought of the majority of players is something like, "Ooh a multiple SP event. I wonder how I can wring maximum rewards from this thing... I know - I'll spam Uplinks!" You can set your watch to it. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3976	Posted - 2014.09.05 11:45:00 - [457] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: How does it confirm anything?... people farm vehicle damage points too. Should we take that away? Action + result + repeatability = confirmation People farming vehicle damage is a different issue... And I never suggested taking anything away, just to balance the rewards from related actions. (Amarrs is so tricksy.) Your missing one important variable in your equation there: Triple SP event. Not a good basis for far-reaching gameplay decisions. No. It just makes for a larger sample size and further confirms the issue. You said as much yourself... The first thought of the majority of players is something like, "Ooh a multiple SP event. I wonder how I can wring maximum rewards from this thing... I know - I'll spam Uplinks!" You can set your watch to it. And others farm vehicle damage WP, or pad their KDR at the same time with a kill-revive boosting scheme (used to see some comical stat lines on the Oceania server... people going 355/0 with 10000 WP). That's not the only way its done. All sorts of creatively abhorrent behavior crops up. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2548	Posted - 2014.09.05 11:56:00 - [458] - Quote Its only farming vehicle damage if you are actively aiming to drive them off like a yo-yo. Still a useful behavior assisting the team. I aim for the kill, personally. Killing half a dozen expensive vehicles is hilarious. You dont have to farm them. If you shoot to kill at all times you help your team immensely while racking up the kills and WP. Farming vehicle damage would require a qsync in FW where your payouts are static, unaffected by killboard position, and where OB are unaffected by WP. Once rattati puts the new matchmaking into effect if you see people doing it report them for boosting.
Zindorak 1.U.P 814	Posted - 2014.09.05 11:56:00 - [459] - Quote Please can we haz Amarr Logi bonus: +1 to deployable Links? Plz Pokemon master! CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3977	Posted - 2014.09.05 12:03:00 - [460] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Its only farming vehicle damage if you are actively aiming to drive them off like a yo-yo. Still a useful behavior assisting the team. I aim for the kill, personally. Killing half a dozen expensive vehicles is hilarious. You dont have to farm them. If you shoot to kill at all times you help your team immensely while racking up the kills and WP. Farming vehicle damage would require a qsync in FW where your payouts are static, unaffected by killboard position, and where OB are unaffected by WP. Once rattati puts the new matchmaking into effect if you see people doing it report them for boosting. Don't worry, I've reported at least a half a dozen people over the past year. For the vehicle WP they usually take a couple tanks and run off into the corner of the map for a boosting circle jerk. It was actually really fun to camp somewhere with a forge and break up their little tea parties. Boy did they get pissed. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2550	Posted - 2014.09.05 12:05:00 - [461] - Quote Demonsbane your antagonistic, murderous bad attitude towards boosters has been noted and found giggleworthy. Kill them.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 128	Posted - 2014.09.05 15:35:00 - [462] - Quote I pretty nearly never run a Gal logi. In the contest between the best stealthy scout fits and the best possible active scanner fits, is my impression correct that currently the scouts win as far as being able to fit to be undetectable? If so, that absolutely should be reversed. The very best fit active scanners, who get lucky or good enough to happen to scan in the right direction at the right moment, should be able to pick up the stealthiest scouts. If the Gal logi got a bonus to active scan precision good enough to achieve this, the SP and cost of running a proto gal logi might actually be worth it.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3977	Posted - 2014.09.05 15:45:00 - [463] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Demonsbane your antagonistic, murderous bad attitude towards boosters has been noted and found giggleworthy. Kill them. Approval by the goons. I must be doing it ~~wrong~~ ~~right~~ ~~wrong~~? I'm so conflicted. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2552	Posted - 2014.09.05 15:50:00 - [464] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Demonsbane your antagonistic, murderous bad attitude towards boosters has been noted and found giggleworthy. Kill them. Approval by the goons. I must be doing it ~~wrong~~ ~~right~~ ~~wrong~~? I'm so conflicted. I don't needlef**k because it boosts KDR. I do it because it LOWERS yours. And sitting in the back circlejerking to farm WP is a special kind of lame-ass stupid. I'd kill everything involved because screw vehicles. burn.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3977	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:00:00 - [465] - Quote Haha. Yes, the only accusation is of said needlef*ckery, not boosting. I've been around long enough to know your m.o. (ditto on the all vehicles must die) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 302	Posted - 2014.09.05 19:35:00 - [466] - Quote Meee One wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I'm hesitant to address this directly, you're not realizing it but your tone is getting worse and worse... Yeah....i think i'll take a break from posting. Also,don't be a coward. If i'm being unreasonable or asinine call me on it. I encourage you to not mistake my ability to remain civil while warning you about your becoming unreasonable and asinine as "cowardice". My hesitation has nothing to do with addressing you but with not wanting to have any more part in the thread going off topic than I absolutely need to. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 302	Posted - 2014.09.05 19:41:00 - [467] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: I pretty nearly never run a Gal logi. In the contest between the best stealthy scout fits and the best possible active scanner fits, is my impression correct that currently the scouts win as far as being able to fit to be undetectable? If so, that absolutely should be reversed. The very best fit active scanners, who get lucky or good enough to happen to scan in the right direction at the right moment, should be able to pick up the stealthiest scouts. If the Gal logi got a bonus to active scan precision good enough to achieve this, the SP and cost of running a proto gal logi might actually be worth it. Yes, you are correct, in the contest between stealth and scans at their highest level stealth wins. I floated an idea past a CPM candidate at one point about vehicle scanners being tweaked so that they, at least, could detect those super low profile scouts but she was very very adamant about ANY scanning of scouts making them "useless" (wtf?!??!) and from the context of the convo I got the distinct impression that sentiment was largely that of the current scouting community and previous CPM. She was even worse about the topic of scouts losing that 2nd equipment slot. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3073	Posted - 2014.09.05 19:45:00 - [468] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: I pretty nearly never run a Gal logi. In the contest between the best stealthy scout fits and the best possible active scanner fits, is my impression correct that currently the scouts win as far as being able to fit to be undetectable? If so, that absolutely should be reversed. The very best fit active scanners, who get lucky or good enough to happen to scan in the right direction at the right moment, should be able to pick up the stealthiest scouts. If the Gal logi got a bonus to active scan precision good enough to achieve this, the SP and cost of running a proto gal logi might actually be worth it. Yes, you are correct, in the contest between stealth and scans at their highest level stealth wins. I floated an idea past a CPM candidate at one point about vehicle scanners being tweaked so that they, at least, could detect those super low profile scouts but she was very very adamant about ANY scanning of scouts making them "useless" (wtf?!??!) and from the context of the convo I got the distinct impression that sentiment was largely that of the current scouting community and previous CPM. She was even worse about the topic of scouts losing that 2nd equipment slot. Don't ever ask Appia about anything Scout related unless you want to buff them. Otherwise the response will always be as you experienced. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 302	Posted - 2014.09.05 20:06:00 - [469] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: How does it confirm anything?... people farm vehicle damage points too. Should we take that away? Action + result + repeatability = confirmation People farming vehicle damage is a different issue... And I never suggested taking anything away, just to balance the rewards from related actions. (Amarrs is so tricksy.) This logic though also has us lose Triple SP events altogether, in that: Triple SP Event+more spam+everytime=Triple SP events cause spam and must be STOPPED!! Maybe, just maybe, since the maps are huge and (unlike most every other fps) we aren't allowed to spawn directly off teammates AND most everybody after the first hour realizes that often the one thing between a team redlining the other is one good uplink maybe most people skill uplinks at some level early on? And then, when its Triple SP time, players who largely don't play do or players use low skill characters they normally wouldn't and those characters only have links so they strew them about. Maybe? Maybe its just higher player traffic of low-skill players grasping for any points they can get? In which case, lowering the SP payout doesnt inspire anything except skilling into higher tier links to get the higher quantities deployable? Mebbeh?? Too bad there isn't a way to limit how much of that low-skill spam happens from logisuits... lol Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 302	Posted - 2014.09.05 20:22:00 - [470] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: True Adamance wrote: Logistic Suits - DO NOT need more EHP - Logisitics Suits need to be incentivised to use utility modules and not EHP stack - Logistics Role Bonuses should emphasis the role and be unilateral, especially in the case of the Rep tool bonuses, as no one race in EVE dominates remote reps. *Please elaborate in detail on points one and two because at present they like dude, like totally are bro, in contradiction to each other.* So much of ^that^ I had to BIU it. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 306	Posted - 2014.09.05 22:37:00 - [471] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: I pretty nearly never run a Gal logi. In the contest between the best stealthy scout fits and the best possible active scanner fits, is my impression correct that currently the scouts win as far as being able to fit to be undetectable? If so, that absolutely should be reversed. The very best fit active scanners, who get lucky or good enough to happen to scan in the right direction at the right moment, should be able to pick up the stealthiest scouts. If the Gal logi got a bonus to active scan precision good enough to achieve this, the SP and cost of running a proto gal logi might actually be worth it. Yes, you are correct, in the contest between stealth and scans at their highest level stealth wins. I floated an idea past a CPM candidate at one point about vehicle scanners being tweaked so that they, at least, could detect those super low profile scouts but she was very very adamant about ANY scanning of scouts making them "useless" (wtf?!??!) and from the context of the convo I got the distinct impression that sentiment was largely that of the current scouting community and previous CPM. She was even worse about the topic of scouts losing that 2nd equipment slot. Don't ever ask Appia about anything Scout related unless you want to buff them. Otherwise the response will always be as you experienced. ****, I guess. She wasn't rude or obtuse about it, just...stalwart... in her opinion. The issue with that tho is that if thats going to be the "lightest" frame there is and thats what its capable of then every other role will need not just hotfixing but total 'roid-buffing rewrites. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2565	Posted - 2014.09.05 22:40:00 - [472] - Quote Any opinion prefaced with "this shouldn't be allowed because it is low skilled" should be relentlessly mocked for being stupid, anecdotal and more or less functionally useless as constructive criticism.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1078	Posted - 2014.09.06 00:56:00 - [473] - Quote I have thought of an amazing buff to logistics without actually buffing the suit. Preface: -You never pay more for less Since logistics is slower than basics,has less eHP than basics,-1 weapon compared to basics,why should it cost more? Logistics suit prices don't reflect what you get in return. They are the same as assaults and basics, which implies they are somewhat equal. And they aren't. This base price combined with equipment,before modules and weapons...severely take a chunk out of your wallet. Then add in modules to try and survive and a weapon of choice. And you have what's known as a class wide "glass cannon",logistics is unable to specify in anything well enough to compete in any area...except killing. So,let's reduce the hit on the wallet shall we? -50% price reduction on logistics suits of all tiers and all equipment of all tiers. The equipment will benefit other classes as well. This way a logistics user can run an ADV fit equal in costs to another class. Currently a logistics user can run an ADV fit at nearly 2x the costs of any other mediums. With less offence,less tank,and less speed and less stamina,with less shield regeneration too. If you get what you pay for,logistics is getting ripped off. Sidenote:I'll try to avoid emo posting from now on. This is the closest you're getting to an apology,take it or leave it. It's not like i'm altering my posts for you because i secretly like Dust and want it to get better or anything. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 391	Posted - 2014.09.06 00:56:00 - [474] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Demonsbane your antagonistic, murderous bad attitude towards ~~boosters~~ Minmatar has been noted and found giggleworthy. ^Also true. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 391	Posted - 2014.09.06 01:01:00 - [475] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Question: Could you change the Minmatar suit to a sapper and somehow make Proximity mines explode based on Signature Profile instead of just on vehicles (Giving the Minmatar Logi a bonus to proxy mine triggers and explosion Radius of REs). (For something in the future, not necessarily a hotfix) You mean like having a proxy mine blow up whenever an Amarrian gets close enough? If so, me likey! Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 391	Posted - 2014.09.06 01:07:00 - [476] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: How does it confirm anything?... people farm vehicle damage points too. Should we take that away? Action + result + repeatability = confirmation People farming vehicle damage is a different issue... And I never suggested taking anything away, just to balance the rewards from related actions. (Amarrs is so tricksy.) Your missing one important variable in your equation there: Triple SP event. Not a good basis for far-reaching gameplay decisions. No. It just makes for a larger sample size and further confirms the issue. You said as much yourself... The first thought of the majority of players is something like, "Ooh a multiple SP event. I wonder how I can wring maximum rewards from this thing... I know - I'll spam Uplinks!" You can set your watch to it. And others farm vehicle damage WP, or pad their KDR at the same time with a kill-revive boosting scheme (used to see some comical stat lines on the Oceania server... people going 355/0 with 10000 WP). That's not the only way its done. All sorts of creatively abhorrent behavior crops up. Understood and agreed. But those are different (although related) issues that also need to be corrected. (This week I saw two guys, with the same last name, finish 1 & 2 with 76/0 and 74/1 KDR on a Domination match.) We were talking about Uplinks. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1078	Posted - 2014.09.06 01:28:00 - [477] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Any opinion prefaced with "this shouldn't be allowed because it is low skilled" should be relentlessly mocked for being stupid, anecdotal and more or less functionally useless as constructive criticism. There is a difference between low skilled...like using an LAV to get kills,or using an HMG + LAV combo. And broken....like a scout tossing an RE,taking 3 steps back and blowing it up not killing themselves in the process while the other suits at the REs location can't RUN and escape the blast. -or- a nearly dead enemy (scout) getting shot swapping to a different suit (1000 armor heavy with an HMG) and getting full health and invulnerability at a supply depot. -or- snipers quickly shooting a second or even third time and being dead on target -or- large blasters sniping from 200m away (they can again) -or- REs being counted as equipment yet refilling at nanos. But i would agree if it didn't feel so cheap. People wouldn't complain if "low skilled" methods had counters,but they don't. -Equip a swarm to kill the LAV/HAV,driver kills you because you only have a sidearm (usually). -Sniper can't be killed except by sniping -Can't escape from REs dropped from 30m above your head. -Scouts can regenerate damage as you shoot them (almost),and they can OHK you. -Can't disarm REs without killing your allies. -Watching a scout throw down a hive,then spam drop REs on an objective. -Heavies turn insanely fast while spraying bullets,making escape impossible. -ADS hovers over allies spamming missiles (pilot stacking) They wouldn't be used if there were effective counters. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1078	Posted - 2014.09.06 01:46:00 - [478] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Question: Could you change the Minmatar suit to a sapper and somehow make Proximity mines explode based on Signature Profile instead of just on vehicles (Giving the Minmatar Logi a bonus to proxy mine triggers and explosion Radius of REs). (For something in the future, not necessarily a hotfix) You mean like having a proxy mine blow up whenever an Amarrian gets close enough? If so, me likey! >no one liked killer bees >they were killer bees because they killed things >CCP gave non-killing bonuses >Players want a logi to have a killing bonus I'm amazed no one realises the flaw with min getting a RE bonus,i hope that somehow they do. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3979	Posted - 2014.09.06 03:43:00 - [479] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Demonsbane your antagonistic, murderous bad attitude towards ~~boosters~~ Minmatar has been noted and found giggleworthy. ^Also true. I'm glad we agree that a murderous attitude towards minmatar is giggle worthy and therefore approved/acceptable. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3979	Posted - 2014.09.06 03:43:00 - [480] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: How does it confirm anything?... people farm vehicle damage points too. Should we take that away? Action + result + repeatability = confirmation People farming vehicle damage is a different issue... And I never suggested taking anything away, just to balance the rewards from related actions. (Amarrs is so tricksy.) This logic though also has us lose Triple SP events altogether, in that: Triple SP Event+more spam+everytime=Triple SP events cause spam and must be STOPPED!! Maybe, just maybe, since the maps are huge and (unlike most every other fps) we aren't allowed to spawn directly off teammates AND most everybody after the first hour realizes that often the one thing between a team redlining the other is one good uplink maybe most people skill uplinks at some level early on? And then, when its Triple SP time, players who largely don't play do or players use low skill characters they normally wouldn't and those characters only have links so they strew them about. Maybe? Maybe its just higher player traffic of low-skill players grasping for any points they can get? In which case, lowering the SP payout doesnt inspire anything except skilling into higher tier links to get the higher quantities deployable? Mebbeh?? Too bad there isn't a way to limit how much of that low-skill spam happens from logisuits... lol Still not going to do what you think it will... (The godfather of tactical logistics)

Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1083	Posted - 2014.09.06 04:02:00 - [481] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Demonsbane your antagonistic, murderous bad attitude towards ~~boosters~~ Minmatar has been noted and found giggleworthy. ^Also true. I'm glad we agree that a murderous attitude towards minmatar is giggle worthy and therefore approved/acceptable. pâ+(n+Ç+¦-¦)pâÄ Not this again. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 393	Posted - 2014.09.06 05:23:00 - [482] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Demonsbane your antagonistic, murderous bad attitude towards ~~boosters~~ Minmatar has been noted and found giggleworthy. ^Also true. I'm glad we agree that a murderous attitude towards minmatar is giggle worthy and therefore approved/acceptable. Ha. Wrong again, my shiny misguided fiend. (Not a typo.) I agreed that YOUR antagonistic, murderous attitude toward Minmatar was giggle worthy. Nice try though. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 393	Posted - 2014.09.06 05:24:00 - [483] - Quote Meee One wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Demonsbane your antagonistic, murderous bad attitude towards ~~boosters~~ Minmatar has been noted and found giggleworthy. ^Also true. I'm glad we agree that a murderous attitude towards minmatar is giggle worthy and therefore approved/acceptable. pâ+(n+Ç+¦-¦)pâÄ Not this again. LOL Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 393	Posted - 2014.09.06 05:37:00 - [484] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: How does it confirm anything?... people farm vehicle damage points too. Should we take that away? Action + result + repeatability = confirmation People farming vehicle damage is a different issue... And I never suggested taking anything away, just to balance the rewards from related actions. (Amarrs is so tricksy.) This logic though also has us lose Triple SP events altogether, in that: Triple SP Event+more spam+everytime=Triple SP events cause spam and must be STOPPED!! Maybe, just maybe, since the maps are huge and (unlike most every other fps) we aren't allowed to spawn directly off teammates AND most everybody after the first hour realizes that often the one thing between a team redlining the other is one good uplink maybe most people skill uplinks at some level early on? And then, when its Triple SP time, players who largely don't play do or players use low skill characters they normally wouldn't and those characters only have links so they strew them about. Maybe? Maybe its just higher player traffic of low-skill players grasping for any points they can get? In which case, lowering the SP payout doesnt inspire anything except skilling into higher tier links to get the higher quantities deployable? Mebbeh?? Too bad there isn't a way to limit how much of that low-skill spam happens from logisuits... lol Still not going to do what you think it will... As for Appia, yeah, you're not going to get very far with her. Now, I do totally agree that vehicle scans should not find damped scouts, and that was a bad idea. Reasons: 1) cuz f*ck vehicles 2) Continuous 360 degree scan on a highly mobile platform. On the other hand, I also agree that a maxed Gal logi with a duvolle focused scan should be able to see any scout, or at the very least, any scout that's not a cloaked proto gallente with a complex dampener in every slot and maxed skills. ...In which case we should still make a new scanner available, let's call it the duvolle laser focused (lol), with a shorter scan duration and angle that can then pick up any scout no matter what, because it's an active piece of equipment designed specifically for that, not a passive thing that is always on. Gotta agree with the shiny, creepy-looking dude on point 1. On point 2, I have no opinion since I'm always easy to find - either look for a heavy, cuz I'm reppin' it... or look for a tank, cuz I'm reckin' it. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2595	Posted - 2014.09.06 15:54:00 - [485] - Quote Meee One wrote: like using an LAV to get kills, If you're crossing the street in front of me, I'm not going to politely hit the brakes. i'm going to accelerate and bulldoze you. or using an HMG + LAV combo. This is what we refer to as "minimizing one's weaknesses." Just because CCP failed to program a "get in, get out" animation so fatties don't teleport into jeeps is the fault of the game designer, not the player using the jeeps to kill you. And broken....like a scout tossing an RE,taking 3 steps back and blowing it up not killing themselves in the process while the other suits at the REs location can't RUN and escape the blast. This is why mass drivers are useful. Plasma cannons too. Usually puts a stop to that crap. -or- a nearly dead enemy (scout) getting shot swapping to a different suit (1000 armor heavy with an HMG) and getting full health and invulnerability at a supply depot. *Oh no, he swapped to a heavy! I have enough ammo in the Boundless. Bring it Btch. -or- snipers quickly shooting a second or even third time and being dead on target -or- large blasters sniping from 200m away (they can again) Snipe 'em back. it works for me. Forge Gun Vs. Blaster tankat 200m = dead Blaster Tank -or- REs being counted as equipment yet refilling at nanos. But i would agree if it didn't feel so cheap. Cheap thrills are the best thrills. They cost little and provide much satisfaction. People wouldn't complain if "low skilled" methods had counters,but they don't. They do, but "run straight at the heavy" is not one of them. -Equip a swarm to kill the LAV/HAV,driver kills you because you only have a sidearm (usually). Been there, done that. He still lost the tank. My dropsuit was MUCH less painful on the wallet. -Sniper can't be killed except by sniping This is not universal. Not all snipers are cheese-eating fktards. I've seen a few with actual balls. -Can't escape from REs dropped from 30m above your head. I challenge you to escape the mass driver bombardment from 30m up. -Scouts can regenerate damage as you shoot them (almost),and they can OHK you. Almost only countsin horseshoes and hand grenades, I'm bluntly shocked that you're madder about THIS than them being binary undetectable. -Can't disarm REs without killing your allies. I consider this a feature, not a bug. blueberry shoulda been looking to disarm them himself. Am I an ass for waiting to destroy the RE till AFTER he starts the hack? Yeah ok, sure. But I was also one of the pioneers of the grenade ganks and have a very hard time passing up the opportunity to gank blues at least once a match. -Watching a scout throw down a hive,then spam drop REs on an objective. You can only deploy three of each type, the excess ones disappear. Next time shoot the RE while the scout is dropping them. Hilarity ensues. -Heavies turn insanely fast while spraying bullets,making escape impossible. Why the hell are you engaging a heavy in CQC you twit? CQC is where heavies are strongest by design. What, are you expecting them to flail about helplessly like aturtle on it's back while you merrily shoot them in the side of the head? There's a reason that crap got changed. -ADS hovers over allies spamming missiles (pilot stacking) I'm a forge gunner. this is a scenario I live for. Kill ADS, make crash on bluedot heads. They wouldn't be used if there were effective counters. There are effective counters. Just because they are either not obvious or difficult to pull off doesn't mean they don't exist. By your logic people should feel bad about shooting a caldari dropsuit with triple-modded scrambler rifles. It's low-skill and trivial. Here's a hint, Junior Mint: This game is about warfare, and in warfare if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 306	Posted - 2014.09.06 17:26:00 - [486] - Quote Well, the vehicle scanner idea really was an attempt at a middle ground. That certain scouts can be basically unscannable at all times, under all circumstances seemed contrary to the rock-paper-scissors crafting idea to me. She had a great point in that if there's to be stealth it needs to be stealth all the time and with the overwhelming number of people who went SP deep into scanners, making an infantry portable scanner capable of picking up even the clackest of the clacked would get spammed horribly and make scout stealth negligible. So the idea was then that maybe a toptier vehicle scanner be made available which, by virtue of being larger sized and vehicle CPU/PG powered, would be able to detect those lowest profiles. The spam-potential balance would axis on that since it's vehicle based there would need to be deep deep investment into not just a scanner but the vehicle AND the PG/CPU of the vehicle AND the existing vehicle gamemode limits (which I don't think were in effect at the time of the convo but were drafted and highly likely). It could also be short burst, long cooldown etc to further keep it balanced in larger gameplay. Hell, even the range on that 360 degrees could be adjusted for balance. A vehicle scanner also, as far as scanners go, are the easiest to avoid since a) the vehicle has to enter the area b)scanning vehicles are very obvious, what with the halos they emit and the distinct pulsing sound Having something like this would let scouts scout, infantry scan and get some hits and if theres a need for it a vehicle-specific Anti-Infantry tool is available. Vehicle based so easily countered by existing AV as well. Like I said, it was just an idea. And she hated it. XD Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1104	Posted - 2014.09.09 08:51:00 - [487] - Quote i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 188	Posted - 2014.09.09 22:36:00 - [488] - Quote Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. I've mentioned this to the people I play with a few times, hell yes. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
Major IMPACT Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 12	Posted - 2014.09.09 22:52:00 - [489] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. I've mentioned this to the people I play with a few times, hell yes. This is a great idea!! But I know people who will exploit this. People might fit this purely a hacker and a stealth ewar suit, used really to just run around and hack objectives, turrets, supple depot, CRUs, etc. I would support this, it will be just like having multiple clones into one slayer machine (The one with the HMG would do the slaying). Caldari logi- Ruler of Nanites
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1118	Posted - 2014.09.10 04:16:00 - [490] - Quote Major IMPACT wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. I've mentioned this to the people I play with a few times, hell yes. This is a great idea!! But I know people who will exploit this. People might fit this purely a hacker and a stealth ewar suit, used really to just run around and hack objectives, turrets, supple depot, CRUs, etc. I would support this, it will be just like having multiple clones into one slayer machine (The one with the HMG would do the slaying). Interesting fun fact:logistics should be the best hackers. Killing is the problem CCP wants to prevent,and hacking objectives isn't killing. Hacking is a very essential support action. TBH i'm just getting tired of having crap stats because my suit has a gun. I would switch to this suit full time. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.

ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 137	Posted - 2014.09.10 07:20:00 - [491] - Quote When responding to this thread please note your primary role Thank god, can we just have our accounts synced to this website already so everyone knows our role. Then well know when to take certain nerf threads with a grain of salt.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 137	Posted - 2014.09.10 07:32:00 - [492] - Quote Major IMPACT wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. I've mentioned this to the people I play with a few times, hell yes. This is a great idea!! But I know people who will exploit this. People might fit this purely a hacker and a stealth ewar suit, used really to just run around and hack objectives, turrets, supple depot, CRUs, etc. I would support this, it will be just like having multiple clones into one slayer machine (The one with the HMG would do the slaying). I doubt it with no defenses. People usually dont skill into a suit for hacks people skill into a suit for easy slaying. I would never skill into a hack suit, 1. Because i only play ambush and 2. Why compromise a fit just to get a hack. It is nice in pc though.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 137	Posted - 2014.09.10 07:37:00 - [493] - Quote Oh yeah and it still wouldnt beat the hacker scouts we have now and wo a light weapon , not gonna be a fotm.Maybe fotm to logi logis but we need more of those anyways.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1122	Posted - 2014.09.10 19:56:00 - [494] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Oh yeah and it still wouldnt beat the hacker scouts we have now and wo a light weapon , not gonna be a fotm.Maybe fotm to logi logis but we need more of those anyways. Min logistics built in hack speed +Lv 5 hacking +4 complex codebreakers,i'm sure that would give them a run for their money. But,like most i would build mine for speed and shield regen. I could actually use biotics for once,without severely gimping my suit even more. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1122	Posted - 2014.09.11 01:59:00 - [495] - Quote How about passive AOE bonuses to allies within a certain range (5-10m)? Min:Faster shield recharge Cal:Larger shield recharged amount Gal:Rep buff,if no reps are present it gives +2hp/s Amarr:Damage resistance -or- reduced speed penalty for plates -or- more amount plates give. Limitations: -You can only have one buff per logistics If you had 3 min,the bonus would only act like there was 1. -You can however have all buffs at once. 1 of each logistics nearby = 1 of each buff applied -Logistics wouldn't receive their own buff,but if another logistics of the same race were nearby they would receive theirs. Support needs support too. This would encourage sticking with logistics,and not abandoning them to fend for themselves. Trying not to double post.... I find myself drifting away from the six kin,having to make the hard choice of save myself or save an ally. I cannot by any reasonable means stay so close and be expected to survive. And this got me to thinking...why are rep tool ranges so ridiculously short? Why aren't logistics compensated with much longer ranges because they can't survive CQC. Rifles can kill at ranges of 100m,yet a healing tool can only work at 20m and below,knowing this forces logistics suits to go head to head with enemies.No other suit is required to perform under such unrealistic circumstances. Low stats,being forced infront of your enemies guns,can't out strafe,can't out rep,can't out tank. Yet CCP thinks this set up is fine? Other suits with more freedoms have higher stats,while killing,yet logistics has lower while repping at 20m? One is forced into a defenseless posture,without the tank and range of the others. The others can maneuver at excessively long ranges with better ability to survive. Broken?Yes Fixable?Yes,but until people respect logistics the answer is no. My solution: -Give logistics "insane" range bonuses to rep tools A core focused would work at 25m.(for all logistics suits,before min logistics bonuses) Adjust after that. Either give logistics bonuses to compensate its stats,or give it stats to compensate its bonuses. "Logistics isn't frontline" At >20m it is. At <25m it isn't. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1135	Posted - 2014.09.12 00:25:00 - [496] - Quote Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. This idea is supported by EVE too. http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Logistics_Ships_101 T2 logistic ships have small signature radius, decent speed, and high resists.Even though they are the healer, they are tougher than a lot of other ships and will either be attempted to taken down first, jammed, or left to last if they are too tough a nut to crack, leaving your other more fragile, but high DPS ships to deal the pain while you are being concentrated on. Logistics in Dust shares 0 similarities with logistics in EVE. In EVE they are/have: -harder to detect -Decent speed -High resists -Weak to high ALPHA damage (low eHP) -Difficult to kill In Dust they are/have: -Weak to ALPHA damage (low eHP) If CCP refuses to buff logistics with a gun,create a non-combat variety that actually meets EVE standards. It doesn't even have to be re-colored. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 128	Posted - 2014.09.12 13:17:00 - [497] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: I pretty nearly never run a Gal logi. In the contest between the best stealthy scout fits and the best possible active scanner fits, is my impression correct that currently the scouts win as far as being able to fit to be undetectable? If so, that absolutely should be reversed. The very best fit active scanners, who get lucky or good enough to happen to scan in the right direction at the right moment, should be able to pick up the stealthiest scouts. If the Gal logi got a bonus to active scan precision good enough to achieve this, the SP and cost of running a proto gal logi might actually be worth it. Yes, you are correct, in the contest between stealth and scans at their highest level stealth wins. I floated an idea past a CPM candidate at one point about vehicle scanners being tweaked so that they, at least, could detect those super low profile scouts but she was very very adamant about ANY scanning of scouts making them "useless" (wtf?!??!) and from the context of the convo I got the distinct impression that sentiment was largely that of the current scouting community and previous CPM. She was even worse about the topic of scouts losing that 2nd equipment slot. Thank you. I don't always keep up to date on the latest changes. My concern for scanning can be restated as a request for a module much like the precision enhancer, but affecting active scans, and powerful enough to induce an arms race between logis and scouts (similar to the one we have currently among scouts for passive scan fits with with enough precision enhancers or dampers to detect or hide from each other.) This proposed ACTIVE precision enhancer would also cause the scanning logi to light up like a Christmas tree on enemy scans. Fitting two Active precision enhancers would be required to pick up a scout with a single damper, i.e. the arms race where both logis and scouts sacrifice tanking modules to detect or avoid each other. The end game of that arms race is the stealthiest race's proto scout running the maximum dampers he can run, barely being detected by the best detecting race's proto logi, fitting all his high slots with active precision enhancers, and running a proto active scanner with the narrowest angle, shortest range, and shortest duration. I don't see how anyone could reasonably argue against that balance. The best detecting logi would still probably cost 3x the stealthiest scout, all for a 1 in 4 or 5 chance of happening to scan in the right direction at the right moment to catch a stealthy scout.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4227	Posted - 2014.09.12 14:02:00 - [498] - Quote This morning when I was picked up twice with a Red standing 20m in front of me in plain sight, I got the idea that there should be a -25 WP penalty if you pick someone up and they die again within 5 seconds. My role in the context of the Support class: Victim! I consider the guy who picked me up twice without clearing the area to be an accomplice to my repeated murder. Maybe if there was a penalty for such negligence people would learn? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4063	Posted - 2014.09.12 14:11:00 - [499] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: This morning when I was picked up twice with a Red standing 20m in front of me in plain sight, I got the idea that there should be a -25 WP penalty if you pick someone up and they die again within 5 seconds. My role in the context of the Support class: Victim! I consider the guy who picked me up twice without clearing the area to be an accomplice to my repeated murder. Maybe if there was a penalty for such negligence people would learn? Maybe you're just bad at your job, Fox! (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1136	Posted - 2014.09.12 23:07:00 - [500] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: This morning when I was picked up twice with a Red standing 20m in front of me in plain sight, I got the idea that there should be a -25 WP penalty if you pick someone up and they die again within 5 seconds. My role in the context of the Support class: Victim! I consider the guy who picked me up twice without clearing the area to be an accomplice to my repeated murder. Maybe if there was a penalty for such negligence people would learn? 5 seconds is a long time when you can be killed in under 1,and a scout could just SG you 3 seconds later. More like 1-2 after you're revived a logi shouldn't have to escort you out on to that open area and get killed like you do. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.

Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1137	Posted - 2014.09.13 00:06:00 - [501] - Quote If a new suit is unfeasable. I've said this idea before too... How about built in damage resistance? How it would work: -While a logistics suit holds an equipment,they get 75%-85% straight damage resistance to everything. -While a logistics suit holds a weapon,they don't. So logistics can choose to be weak offensively,or strong defensively. This would compensate for low eHP,semi-compensate for low speed. It wouldn't be an active killing buff,so only support logistics would benefit. If possible: -While a logistics suit holds an equipment,they get a speed boost equalling their racial scout. -While a logistics suit holds an equipment,they get a regen boost equalling their racial scout. Then you have a suit dramatically encouraged to do their job,or suffer doing anothers. Slayer logis would be cannon fodder,but support logistics would be hard to kill and difficult to hit,like in EVE. But their eHP would still be low. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 407	Posted - 2014.09.13 22:18:00 - [502] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: This morning when I was picked up twice with a Red standing 20m in front of me in plain sight, I got the idea that there should be a -25 WP penalty if you pick someone up and they die again within 5 seconds. My role in the context of the Support class: Victim! I consider the guy who picked me up twice without clearing the area to be an accomplice to my repeated murder. Maybe if there was a penalty for such negligence people would learn? Mandatory 'request revive' would help prevent this. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 984	Posted - 2014.09.13 22:32:00 - [503] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: This morning when I was picked up twice with a Red standing 20m in front of me in plain sight, I got the idea that there should be a -25 WP penalty if you pick someone up and they die again within 5 seconds. My role in the context of the Support class: Victim! I consider the guy who picked me up twice without clearing the area to be an accomplice to my repeated murder. Maybe if there was a penalty for such negligence people would learn? Mandatory 'request revive' would help prevent this. ^^^ All they have to do is make the logo invisible (currently solid) and flash when the call for help button is pressed (same as now) and the revive option is not available until call for help is pressed. Honestly it would seem to be a much more appropriate use of the call for help button anyway. It is almost as if someone at CCP thought about this but they quit and the idea went away with them.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1733	Posted - 2014.09.13 22:46:00 - [504] - Quote Meee One wrote: If a new suit is unfeasable. I've said this idea before too... How about built in damage resistance? How it would work: -While a logistics suit holds an equipment,they get 75%-85% straight damage resistance to everything. -While a logistics suit holds a weapon,they don't. So logistics can choose to be weak offensively,or strong defensively. This would compensate for low eHP,semi-compensate for low speed. It wouldn't be an active killing buff,so only support logistics would benefit. If possible: -While a logistics suit holds an equipment,they get a speed boost equalling their racial scout. -While a logistics suit holds an equipment,they get a regen boost equalling their racial scout. Then you have a suit dramatically encouraged to do their job,or suffer doing anothers. Slayer logis would be cannon fodder,but support logistics would be hard to kill and difficult to hit,like in EVE. But their eHP would still be low. This could easily create problems though. Imagine if a scout had a rep tool that gave him 75% damage resistance. All he needs to do if his strike fails is pull out his rep tool and then run off Scott free. Not a good idea, but I commend you for out-of-the-box thinking. A better solution would be to simply have logistics suits have speed and ewar that's only beaten by scout suits. Alternatively, give them base health only beaten by heavies. Personally I'm more fun more more speed/ewar than more health. Shoot Scout with yes.
Zindorak 1.U.P 905	Posted - 2014.09.14 01:32:00 - [505] - Quote How about a separate skill to further boost the usefulness of the logi's respective equipment Pokemon master! I suck at Tekken lol
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1137	Posted - 2014.09.14 13:50:00 - [506] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Meee One wrote: If a new suit is unfeasable. I've said this idea before too... How about built in damage resistance? How it would work: -While a logistics suit holds an equipment,they get 75%-85% straight damage resistance to everything. -While a logistics suit holds a weapon,they don't. So logistics can choose to be weak offensively,or strong defensively. This would compensate for low eHP,semi-compensate for low speed. It wouldn't be an active killing buff,so only support logistics would benefit. If possible: -While a logistics suit holds an equipment,they get a speed boost equalling their racial scout. -While a logistics suit holds an equipment,they get a regen boost equalling their racial scout. Then you have a suit dramatically encouraged to do their job,or suffer doing anothers. Slayer logis would be cannon fodder,but support logistics would be hard to kill and difficult to hit,like in EVE. But their eHP would still be low. This could easily create problems though. Imagine if a scout had a rep tool that gave him 75% damage resistance. All he needs to do if his strike fails is pull out his rep tool and then run off Scott free. Not a good idea, but I commend you for out-of-the-box thinking. A better solution would be to simply have logistics suits have speed and ewar that's only beaten by scout suits. Alternatively, give them base health only beaten by heavies. Personally I'm more fun more more speed/ewar than more health. Please re-read. I mention only logistics,not scouts. I specifically mention "logistics suits". Holding/using equipment doesn't make a suit logistics. I would never be as stupid as to make such a broad statement. Only logistics would get the buff. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1137	Posted - 2014.09.14 13:51:00 - [507] - Quote Zindorak wrote: How about a separate skill to further boost the usefulness of the logi's respective equipment That would be nice,but as long as "lolkilling" has the spotlight i wouldn't expect it. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1138	Posted - 2014.09.14 19:20:00 - [508] - Quote Meee One wrote: If a new suit is unfeasable. I've said this idea before too... How about built in damage resistance? How it would work: -While a logistics suit holds an equipment,they get 75%-85% straight damage resistance to everything. -While a logistics suit holds a weapon,they don't. So logistics can choose to be weak offensively,or strong defensively. This would compensate for low eHP,semi-compensate for low speed. It wouldn't be an active killing buff,so only support logistics would benefit. If possible: -While a logistics suit holds an equipment,they get a speed boost equalling their racial scout. -While a logistics suit holds an equipment,they get a regen boost equalling their racial scout. Then you have a suit dramatically encouraged to do their job,or suffer doing anothers. Slayer logis would be cannon fodder,but support logistics would be hard to kill and difficult to hit,like in EVE. But their eHP would still be low. As a possible balancing factor... -eHP wouldn't be touched If speed/regen is possible: -Reduce logistics to sent lv speed -Reduce logistics innate rep times to 9 seconds recharge delay 15 seconds depleted. So,if a logistics doesn't hold an equipment they're doomed,but while holding one they are nigh un-killable. Only if speed and regen are possible. If not...no changes. Straight suit buffs,even though i may like them,would enable abuse...which must be prevented beforehand. I just thought of more buffs whilst using equipment. -While a logistics suit holds an equipment,they get bonuses to scanning range,precision,and dampening. All of which rival their racial scout. Balancing factor.. -If logistics doesn't hold an equipment they have terrible scanning range (1m),precision(can't see a vehicle parked right next to them),dampening (can hide as well as an HAV,AKA even heavies can scan them). Logistics becomes a durable,eWAR toting,high regen,non killing support platform. All optional of course,i'd prefer the suit i suggested earlier. Let the one with the gun keep its crap stats. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1138	Posted - 2014.09.15 01:51:00 - [509] - Quote Any updates? I've noticed a lack of CPM responses,and 0 Dev responses... (GèÖn++GèÖG£+) Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 4	Posted - 2014.09.17 02:51:00 - [510] - Quote Please leave logistics suits stats exactly as they are right now. Slots, pg, cpu, etc. Dust 5/14

Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1148	Posted - 2014.09.17 10:58:00 - [511] - Quote Z3dog wrote: Please leave logistics suits stats exactly as they are right now. Slots, pg, cpu, etc. 0/10 If logistics made up for its lack of eHP with evasion. And lack of offense with damage resistance while holding equipment,i would agree. But everyone,and i mean everyone,always targets logistics first. Yet,even though this fact is obvious CCP and the players think that they need nothing extra to survive as public enemy #1. It's downright lunacy. If i were going to throw something into a pit of lava,i would do my best to fireproof it first. Not just pick up the worst suited thing to do the job either. Logistics,right now in its current situation can't effectively survive to do its job. Remember slayer logis? How bad assaults were by comparison? Logistics has been this bad for a while,but it was masked over by the slots and reps. With reps removed,all logistics had was slots. Now,assaults have those slots. Logistics still has equipment right? No,scouts have that equipment. A basic Cal Logistics only has 2 equipment,just like scouts. But the logistics,the one designed to carry equipment the best,must lose speed,a weapon and base stats. Yet, the "assassin" suit,the one designed to get stealth kills the best,has high speed,high regen,and both weapons,with 0 reduction to base stats. Logistics has been,and still is being torn apart. The benefits of being logistics are being given to everyone,yet only logistics must suffer any penalties for those same privileges. It's the most craziness i've witnessed anywhere else,peoples justification for this insanity is "it's balanced if logistics suffers for those perks,but horribly broken if assaults or scouts do". It always leaves me dumbfounded at the sheer ignorance and hypocrisy they display,just to play favorites. TL;DR Logistics has been broken for a while it's obvious,and becomes more so with each "update". Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1151	Posted - 2014.09.18 05:38:00 - [512] - Quote Another way to buff support is to make them needed. For example,if you go into a serious PC without logistics you're going to lose. Pubs and FW? Not so much. How can logistics importance be stressed? -disable suit swapping at supply depots. No insta refills. -remove ammo refills from supply depots for infantry. Vehicles are OK. -to compensate,give logistics +1 or +2 deployables carried per level,except REs and proxies...unless logistics is supposed to be the demolitions class (it is) Now you have a scenario where the team with the logistics will win by sheer attrition. Just an idea. Also,increase all logistics equipment slots to 4 across all teirs. Cal logistics has suffered long enough. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1151	Posted - 2014.09.18 05:50:00 - [513] - Quote I just had a crazy idea... would it be OP to buff logistics walking speed to match their base running speed So logistics would move at a constant rate, or could equip kincats to run faster. This would be a boon to us non tanking rep tool users. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2808	Posted - 2014.09.18 05:59:00 - [514] - Quote Meee One wrote: Any updates? I've noticed a lack of CPM responses,and 0 Dev responses... (GèÖn++GèÖG£+) I have had an incredibly hectic time IRL lately and so my time has been pretty thin. (Meetings with CCP are on going of course, as are my efforts to gather feedback, but this leaves my time to respond highly limited) With the current hotfix cycle changes are more likely to show up in smaller portions than sweeping blocks. Currently I am revving up to test the new matchmaking during the million clone event (what? I play this game ) after which I will once again be devoting more of my free time, such as it is, to this thread and an updated evaluation on the state of play for support in Dust. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2808	Posted - 2014.09.18 06:03:00 - [515] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: This morning when I was picked up twice with a Red standing 20m in front of me in plain sight, I got the idea that there should be a -25 WP penalty if you pick someone up and they die again within 5 seconds. My role in the context of the Support class: Victim! I consider the guy who picked me up twice without clearing the area to be an accomplice to my repeated murder. Maybe if there was a penalty for such negligence people would learn? Mandatory 'request revive' would help prevent this. While request revive would be helpful it is also worth noting that aside from the thoothless KDR stat there is no loss in such situations. Are they frustrating? Yes of course. However no fits or clones are lost until bleed out so the net effect is actually tactically advantageous to your side as a hostile is spending both attention and ammo to repeatedly down a merc who would otherwise have been downed anyway. From a play perspective it needs addressed to keep things fun certainly, but from a tactical perspective a neg reward does not make any sense because the action is actually still contributing positively towards the win. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ in essence the request revive before revive is possible would be ideal here See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2812	Posted - 2014.09.18 06:14:00 - [516] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Thanks for the response and clarification Cross. It seemed weird the way it come across especially in light of this thread and I know sometimes Rattati comes across short and to the point Anyway i've been trying these brick tank logis that everyone says they see and I can honestly say that I ******* hate them. How any body manages to play logi waddling around like a crap heavy with EQ slots is beyond me, i have been getting my arse handed to me ( more than normal ) back to kincats for me before i loose the will to logi. Quick one while i'm here, over the last week I've noticed an annoying trend. Mainly the mass spam of uplinks in just about every conceivable location, by that i mean worse than normal. I was wondering whether this was linked to the increase in WP requirement for OB's and organised squads trying to milk every last WP to get an OB? Unintended side effect or my bad luck in running into uplink spamming squads. Triple SP event. Uplink spam gets ludicrous. You can set your watch to it. Pretty sure that confirms the rewards from Uplink are (slightly) too rich - considering they are a drop and forget equipment. Suggest slightly reducing their rewards from 25 to 20 per spawn to balance out. (Higher tier equipment still benefits for of faster spawn times.) CPM are working on getting spam related problems addressed in a way that won't require dedicated logi to lose earnings (since it is already hard to be self sustaining while running top shelf logi support). I will elaborate later, sorry for the tease (or maybe I'm just evil ) because I am extremely tired and am pretty sure I would kitten up the description if I tried to explain it right now. If I don't give some more info on this subject soonish (say within a few days following the million clone event) feel free to prod me so I remember to get it out to you guys See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1151	Posted - 2014.09.18 06:45:00 - [517] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Meee One wrote: Any updates? I've noticed a lack of CPM responses,and 0 Dev responses... (GèÖn++GèÖG£+) I have had an incredibly hectic time IRL lately and so my time has been pretty thin. (Meetings with CCP are on going of course, as are my efforts to gather feedback, but this leaves my time to respond highly limited) With the current hotfix cycle changes are more likely to show up in smaller portions than sweeping blocks. Currently I am revving up to test the new matchmaking during the million clone event (what? I play this game ) after which I will once again be devoting more of my free time, such as it is, to this thread and an updated evaluation on the state of play for support in Dust. Cheers, Cross By all means IRL comes first always. I was just noticing that except for my (QQ) posts this thread kept disappearing. But as long as i have posting privileges i'll make sure it doesn't . But,i must warn you the matching system is wonky. 98% of the games i've been in,have been stomps today. Usually it's only about 65%. If you didn't play the game,i'd call shenanigans on the elections. But,don't stress yourself. It's only a game,it won't die if you go on vacation. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Major IMPACT Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 14	Posted - 2014.09.18 23:28:00 - [518] - Quote Meee One wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Meee One wrote: Any updates? I've noticed a lack of CPM responses,and 0 Dev responses... (GèÖn++GèÖG£+) I have had an incredibly hectic time IRL lately and so my time has been pretty thin. (Meetings with CCP are on going of course, as are my efforts to gather feedback, but this leaves my time to respond highly limited) With the current hotfix cycle changes are more likely to show up in smaller portions than sweeping blocks. Currently I am revving up to test the new matchmaking during the million clone event (what? I play this game ) after which I will once again be devoting more of my free time, such as it is, to this thread and an updated evaluation on the state of play for support in Dust. Cheers, Cross By all means IRL comes first always. I was just noticing that except for my (QQ) posts this thread kept disappearing. But as long as i have posting privileges i'll make sure it doesn't . But,i must warn you the matching system is wonky. 98% of the games i've been in,have been stomps today. Usually it's only about 65%. If you didn't play the game,i'd call shenanigans on the elections. But,don't stress yourself. It's only a game,it won't die if you go on vacation. Im still checking this thread. It's just that I dont have any great ideas yet and most should already have been discussed. *By the way, I haven't been on yet. I have no clue how the MU system affected gameplay. I guess ill have to limit my nanite spammings... Caldari logi- Ruler of Nanites
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1167	Posted - 2014.09.19 00:22:00 - [519] - Quote I've noticed a terrible trend regarding support. In particular,rep tools. Weapons,as they increase in level do not endanger their users. 1 they can kill to insure their safety. the user gets offense. 2 their range never gets lower. 3 they are easy to use at all tiers. rep tools 1 provide 0 defense to make up for the loss of offense (just like logistics suits,ironically) 2 range actually gets shorter/more difficult to use for the better level The core focused is what i'm referring to. Want so make a comparison people would understand? Take every Pro weapon,cut their range by 75%,and cut their magazine size in HALF. And increase reload times by 50% to represent the loss of defense rep tools give. Now that seems awfully broken considering that they cost the most,doesn't it? But the rep tool isn't the only problem. Everything support oriented is designed to get the user killed. While everything kill oriented is designed to keep the user alive. Don't believe me even after the rep tool/weapon comparison? Let's look at 2 other equipment. One causes instant death. One causes instant life. Guessed them yet? REs and injectors. REs can be used while jumping,falling,running,or just plain slung. This mobility allows this killing equipment to aid its users survival. Injectors on the otherhand... You must be directly on top of an ally,then you become paralysed while reviving them,if you move it doesn't work. It's so badly done it even paralyses the person you just revived into a state of defenselessness. So while REs save one life,injectors kill two. Hillariously ironic,don't you agree? Even logistics suits themselves are proof. Killing suits accel at everything,and i mean everything,logistics has nothing it accels at in terms of survival. Low eHP,low evasion,low regen,low speed. Logistics suits themselves are designed to fail,and get their users killed as well. While even scouts have mechanisms built in to aid them in killing. Even worse are OHK weapons,the completely negate the rep tools existence and further nerf support. And with OHK snipers coming out,i've got a feeling less and less players will carry rep tools in favor of 80% injectors. TL;DR As long as support,and in particular logistics,are seen as valued members of the merc ranks and not just "nerfed to support" suits,nothing will change. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 795	Posted - 2014.09.19 02:40:00 - [520] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: This morning when I was picked up twice with a Red standing 20m in front of me in plain sight, I got the idea that there should be a -25 WP penalty if you pick someone up and they die again within 5 seconds. My role in the context of the Support class: Victim! I consider the guy who picked me up twice without clearing the area to be an accomplice to my repeated murder. Maybe if there was a penalty for such negligence people would learn? Mandatory 'request revive' would help prevent this. While request revive would be helpful it is also worth noting that aside from the thoothless KDR stat there is no loss in such situations. Are they frustrating? Yes of course. However no fits or clones are lost until bleed out so the net effect is actually tactically advantageous to your side as a hostile is spending both attention and ammo to repeatedly down a merc who would otherwise have been downed anyway. From a play perspective it needs addressed to keep things fun certainly, but from a tactical perspective a neg reward does not make any sense because the action is actually still contributing positively towards the win. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ in essence the request revive before revive is possible would be ideal here Well, you aren't entirely correct in your assertion here that the enemy gains nothing (tactically) from repeatedly downing the same enemy... Every kill in that situation is 50-60 wp towards that squad's warbarge strike, which, in the right hands, is very much a tactical advantage. So, the other perspective to this situation would be that someone mindlessly reviving the same ally over and over again is actually helping the enemy team gain an advantage, not helping their own team, as they are tying up a merc that could have spawned and gotten back into the fight and keeping themselves from doing something actually useful. Now, I don't subscribe to that above view as such, I think kdr whores can go QQ in COD or whatever, imho saving a clone (and potentially isk, even though some people don't care, others do) is more important than anyone's kdr, but there is no reason to be stupid about it either. I for one still almost always carry a needle on my logi suit - doesn't mean I mindlessly and blindly rush toward every downed ally to get that 60 points no matter what. Unfortunately, in recent months I have lost faith in the logis left in dust, as I almost never even see a needle when I go down, and when I do, 90% of the time I get picked up only when and where I really didn't want to... i.e. in front of a tank/a heavy/a sniper/the whole ******* enemy team. Seriously, I used to mock people who raged about bad pick ups, but recently... well, there really don't seem to be anything BUT bad pick ups left :( Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2830	Posted - 2014.09.19 03:44:00 - [521] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: This morning when I was picked up twice with a Red standing 20m in front of me in plain sight, I got the idea that there should be a -25 WP penalty if you pick someone up and they die again within 5 seconds. My role in the context of the Support class: Victim! I consider the guy who picked me up twice without clearing the area to be an accomplice to my repeated murder. Maybe if there was a penalty for such negligence people would learn? Mandatory 'request revive' would help prevent this. While request revive would be helpful it is also worth noting that aside from the thoothless KDR stat there is no loss in such situations. Are they frustrating? Yes of course. However no fits or clones are lost until bleed out so the net effect is actually tactically advantageous to your side as a hostile is spending both attention and ammo to repeatedly down a merc who would otherwise have been downed anyway. From a play perspective it needs addressed to keep things fun certainly, but from a tactical perspective a neg reward does not make any sense because the action is actually still contributing positively towards the win. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ in essence the request revive before revive is possible would be ideal here Well, you aren't entirely correct in your assertion here that the enemy gains nothing (tactically) from repeatedly downing the same enemy... Every kill in that situation is 50-60 wp towards that squad's warbarge strike, which, in the right hands, is very much a tactical advantage. Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases). Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000. Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 796	Posted - 2014.09.19 13:17:00 - [522] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases). Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000. Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums. Cheers, Cross I am actually pretty much entirely sure you are wrong there. When you revive someone THE FIRST TIME you get the 60 points. If they get killed again within a very short time, and get revived, no WP is awarded for the pick up, even if they are picked up by another player. So, no, the WP from the repeated revives doesn't nullify anything. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2831	Posted - 2014.09.19 16:35:00 - [523] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases). Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000. Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums. Cheers, Cross I am actually pretty much entirely sure you are wrong there. When you revive someone THE FIRST TIME you get the 60 points. If they get killed again within a very short time, and get revived, no WP is awarded for the pick up, even if they are picked up by another player. So, no, the WP from the repeated revives doesn't nullify anything. Depends on how quickly it happens, but yes there is a cool down in place, however if we are looking at a theoretical in which it is only revive-get shot-revive-repeat for very long at all that is either A) people specifically farming the mechanic, or B) almost never going to actually happen. So in those actual situations yes it does tend to cancel out, further even were that not the case it would still generally be minutiae as mentioned, subjective in impact (either pos or neg) as mentioned, and addressed by the proposed solution. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 796	Posted - 2014.09.19 18:03:00 - [524] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases). Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000. Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums. Cheers, Cross I am actually pretty much entirely sure you are wrong there. When you revive someone THE FIRST TIME you get the 60 points. If they get killed again within a very short time, and get revived, no WP is awarded for the pick up, even if they are picked up by another player. So, no, the WP from the repeated revives doesn't nullify anything. Depends on how quickly it happens, but yes there is a cool down in place, however if we are looking at a theoretical in which it is only revive-get shot-revive-repeat for very long at all that is either A) people specifically farming the mechanic, or B) almost never going to actually happen. So in those actual situations yes it does tend to cancel out, further even were that not the case it would still generally be minutiae as mentioned, subjective in impact (either pos or neg) as mentioned, and addressed by the proposed solution. Whether it's "minutiae" or not is irrelevant, I was just countering your statement that the repeated reviving of an ally that then keeps getting killed again is an advantage to the team ;) Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 322	Posted - 2014.09.19 19:33:00 - [525] - Quote Sooo.... Logis need speed buffs Logis need eHP buffs Logis need repair/recharge/delay buffs Logis need their sidearms back Logis need to be Dropsuit Command level 5 Logis need scouts to lose that 2nd equipment slot Logis need more/better bonuses to equipment use/costs/limits Logis need strengthening without limiting versatility To werk, ceeceepee! cracks novawhip Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2832	Posted - 2014.09.19 20:55:00 - [526] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases). Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000. Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums. Cheers, Cross I am actually pretty much entirely sure you are wrong there. When you revive someone THE FIRST TIME you get the 60 points. If they get killed again within a very short time, and get revived, no WP is awarded for the pick up, even if they are picked up by another player. So, no, the WP from the repeated revives doesn't nullify anything. Depends on how quickly it happens, but yes there is a cool down in place, however if we are looking at a theoretical in which it is only revive-get shot-revive-repeat for very long at all that is either A) people specifically farming the mechanic, or B) almost never going to actually happen. So in those actual situations yes it does tend to cancel out, further even were that not the case it would still generally be minutiae as mentioned, subjective in impact (either pos or neg) as mentioned, and addressed by the proposed solution. Whether it's "minutiae" or not is irrelevant, I was just countering your statement that the repeated reviving of an ally that then keeps getting killed again is an advantage to the team ;) My point was that all of that was covered by my prior post so long as the context of the post itself is applied. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2832	Posted - 2014.09.19 20:58:00 - [527] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Sooo.... Logis need speed buffs Logis need eHP buffs Logis need repair/recharge/delay buffs Logis need their sidearms back Logis need to be Dropsuit Command level 5 Logis need scouts to lose that 2nd equipment slot Logis need more/better bonuses to equipment use/costs/limits Logis need strengthening without limiting versatility To werk, ceeceepee! cracks novawhip Oooo, thread summery, nifty (there are some details and debates and such as well of course, but it is nice to get things back on track ) See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1171	Posted - 2014.09.20 02:49:00 - [528] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Sooo.... Logis need speed buffs Logis need eHP buffs Logis need repair/recharge/delay buffs Logis need their sidearms back Logis need to be Dropsuit Command level 5 Logis need scouts to lose that 2nd equipment slot Logis need more/better bonuses to equipment use/costs/limits Logis need strengthening without limiting versatility To werk, ceeceepee! cracks novawhip Speed? yes. eHP? No,damage resists and evasion (it accomplishes the same thing) logistics needs to be hard to hit,and resist all but the most dedicated attacks.currently logistics can easily be killed by stray fire. R/r/Db?Yes Sidearms? No DcLv5? No,i am only lv 3 for (obvious reasons) and i wouldn't be able to use logistics suits,and there are others out there in the same situation i'm in. Scouts need to lose the 2nd equipment?Yes,or a weapon and stats to be worse than logistics. Moar bonuses? Yes Lol 'versatility',logistics has no 'versatility',every slot must be used to compensate their bad base stats. I say damage resists because it's the one thing no one else has. Scouts have stealth and evasion. Assaults have everything but eWAR,native that is. Heavies have splash resists,then individual resists. Logistics should have straight damage resists to everything,and evasion to be able to escape. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
zzZaXxx Vengeance Unbound 520	Posted - 2014.09.20 03:09:00 - [529] - Quote 1. Logis need more EHP. 2. Logis need scouts to lose the 2nd equipment slot. 3. Adv Cal and Gal logis need a 6th slot. 4. Logis need more EHP.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1171	Posted - 2014.09.20 03:53:00 - [530] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: 1. Logis need more EHP. 2. Logis need scouts to lose the 2nd equipment slot. 3. Adv Cal and Gal logis need a 6th slot. 4. Logis need more EHP. eHP encourages players to stay and brawl,instead of flee. Just look at Cal and Gal scouts. 500 armor or 500 shields. They accel at assaulting. If,for example,stun lock was re-introduced at 2-3x it's old snag power exclusively for light frames,they would disappear. It's evasion and high eHP with high regen that makes them OP. But one simple change,and you'll never see assault scouts again. They wouldn't live through barrages they are able to now,once seen the DPS of any weapon would end them. But that's another topic. Logistics shouldn't be encouraged to fight,but mustn't be 2 shot either and escape should always be a valid option. Resists and evasion helps both survival and escape,while keeping eHP low so logistics remembers its limitations. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.

Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 6	Posted - 2014.09.20 04:51:00 - [531] - Quote Meee One wrote: 0/10 If logistics made up for its lack of eHP with evasion. Not necessarily a stat. Meee One wrote: And lack of offense with damage resistance while holding equipment,i would agree. So I could whip out some kind of equipment and run away really fast while taking a bunch of bullets? Balance... Meee One wrote: But everyone,and i mean everyone,always targets logistics first. Yet,even though this fact is obvious CCP and the players think that they need nothing extra to survive as public enemy #1. It's downright lunacy. Like the two heavies at the end of a rep tool, or a team spawning out of an uplink, or rezzing 4 people who just went down and are now back up and ready to fight. I see what you're saying here, but the symbiotic relationship between logis and the rest of their team should not be ignored. It remains very effective at times and a logi by itself being very weak and vulnerable might be exactly what CCP intends for the role. Meee One wrote: If i were going to throw something into a pit of lava,i would do my best to fireproof it first. Not just pick up the worst suited thing to do the job either. I don't understand the comparison. Your saying that not only is a logi not the best at it's job, but it is the worst? If not, survivability isn't necessarily a logi's job. Support is a logi's job. And survivability isn't always a part of support. Most of the time a logi's "survivability" is dramatically increased when it is around it's team anyway. When you start artificially introducing things that will boost a logi's ability to survive even without it's team it becomes durable on it's own. [/quote=Meee One] Logistics,right now in its current situation can't effectively survive to do its job. Remember slayer logis? How bad assaults were by comparison? [/quote] When you answer my post lets establish a definition for what a logi's job is that we agree on. [/quote=Meee One] Logistics has been this bad for a while,but it was masked over by the slots and reps. With reps removed,all logistics had was slots. Now,assaults have those slots. Logistics still has equipment right? No,scouts have that equipment. A basic Cal Logistics only has 2 equipment,just like scouts. But the logistics,the one designed to carry equipment the best,must lose speed,a weapon and base stats. Yet, the "assassin" suit,the one designed to get stealth kills the best,has high speed,high regen,and both weapons,with 0 reduction to base stats. [/quote] What slots are we talking about between the assaults and logistics? I agree that scouts are Overpowered at the moment, but at the same time logistics are not underpowered. The answer I see is a nerf to scouts, not a buff to logistics roles. Buffing logistics I think would only increase the equipment spam that is plaguing many games. Why do I start half my games with a scout running two sets of drop uplinks? Because its faster and more effective than a logi suit running three. Scouts need to lose their second equipment slot and assaults shouldn't ever get it. [/quote=Meee One] Logistics has been,and still is being torn apart. The benefits of being logistics are being given to everyone,yet only logistics must suffer any penalties for those same privileges. It's the most craziness i've witnessed anywhere else,peoples justification for this insanity is "it's balanced if logistics suffers for those perks,but horribly broken if assaults or scouts do". [/quote] Yup. But take away those penalty free privileges from other suits. Right whats wrong. Don't try to make what's right more right by boosting the privileges logis already enjoy with decent effectiveness. [/quote Meee One] It always leaves me dumbfounded at the sheer ignorance and hypocrisy they display,just to play favorites. [/quote] Yes. The vibe i get is that the other suits somehow owe it to the scout because it got no love for a year. Balance or comeuppance. Pick one CCP. TL;DR I agree with you on several things, but generally disagree on how to solve them. Dust 5/14
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1173	Posted - 2014.09.20 08:49:00 - [532] - Quote Logistics killing things is the problem CCP has shown interest in stopping. If i'm holding an equipment running away trying not to die,i'm not killing am i? If i'm repping,and get damage resist i'm encouraged to rep more seeing as it aids in my own survival. Logistics 'being weak' only is good if you have multiple logistics options. For example,i can have a gun on my suit and have low survivability. -or- i can take the logistics without a gun and have great survivability. We only have option 1,if we had a 2 i wouldn't be trying to get the gun suit buffed for logistics. I would be using #2 because a logistics job isn't just 'lolsupport',it's to keep itself alive. After all,what use is my rep tool after i'm dead?Or how about my injector?Or even my undeployed hives? Logistics must monitor its own vitals,and any allies close by,while also avoiding enemy bullets and back attacks while repping.They must also manage their deployables so they don't use them up at the wrong times. No other suit is burdened so heavily. What must every other class with better survivability do? Lolkillstuff. They are never left defenseless,like logistics is doing their job. Do i believe logistics should be durable and evasive enough to regroup if separated from their team? Yes Do i believe logistics should be durable enough to take 9 SG bullets at 0m and survive? No Oh yes,the old 'logistics should die without a team'. I have bad news for you,scouts can throw REs 10m and there goes that 'protection',scouts can dive into a group SG you then escape unscathed. RRs and CRs enable perfect accuracy to shoot you from over 50m away. Enemies will look and see 'logistics' on the aim info,then single you out. The rep line makes you target #1. CCP,during the slayer logi era increased logistics hitboxes to be as big as heavies,and they are the same size today,over 8(?) months later. And let's not forget the new OHK sniper rifles coming out. Let's use a snipers logic shall we? Hmm,an assault with 1000 eHP,a scout with 500 armor/shields i can't track,a heavy with 1000 eHP... Or the logistics with less eHP than all of them,and easier to track? Now,which one should i shoot to get an easy kill i wonder... Obvious answer is obvious. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1173	Posted - 2014.09.20 09:01:00 - [533] - Quote Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. This idea is supported by EVE too. http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Logistics_Ships_101 T2 logistic ships have small signature radius, decent speed, and high resists.Even though they are the healer, they are tougher than a lot of other ships and will either be attempted to taken down first, jammed, or left to last if they are too tough a nut to crack, leaving your other more fragile, but high DPS ships to deal the pain while you are being concentrated on. Logistics in Dust shares 0 similarities with logistics in EVE. In EVE they are/have: -harder to detect -Decent speed -High resists -Weak to high ALPHA damage (low eHP) -Difficult to kill In Dust they are/have: -Weak to ALPHA damage (low eHP) If CCP refuses to buff logistics with a gun,create a non-combat variety that actually meets EVE standards. It doesn't even have to be re-colored.Just put it in the market right next to the regular version,just like weapons. I'll just repost this,since some people are too lazy to read. This is the best non-buff buff i can think of for the logistics class. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 796	Posted - 2014.09.20 12:42:00 - [534] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases). Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000. Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums. Cheers, Cross I am actually pretty much entirely sure you are wrong there. When you revive someone THE FIRST TIME you get the 60 points. If they get killed again within a very short time, and get revived, no WP is awarded for the pick up, even if they are picked up by another player. So, no, the WP from the repeated revives doesn't nullify anything. Depends on how quickly it happens, but yes there is a cool down in place, however if we are looking at a theoretical in which it is only revive-get shot-revive-repeat for very long at all that is either A) people specifically farming the mechanic, or B) almost never going to actually happen. So in those actual situations yes it does tend to cancel out, further even were that not the case it would still generally be minutiae as mentioned, subjective in impact (either pos or neg) as mentioned, and addressed by the proposed solution. Whether it's "minutiae" or not is irrelevant, I was just countering your statement that the repeated reviving of an ally that then keeps getting killed again is an advantage to the team ;) My point was that all of that was covered by my prior post so long as the context of the post itself is applied. sigh And my point was, that first, I disagree with your assertion that needlefucking gives a tactical advantage of any kind, and more importantly, follow me here, I was correcting your statement "made up for by the 60 wp per revive". Now the context for this is, I have played a support logi for over 2 years, I have heard all sort of accusations and missapprehensions about logis and logistics tools, mainly from people who don't use them. This particular one: "WP whoring logis go around mindlessly reviving people over and over again to farm them for hundreds of points" - which they'd know is not possible, if they actually used a needle themselves. So, I simply don't want that misapprehension to be spread further on the forums, particularly by a CPM member. Now, I am willing to believe you actually were aware of the mechanic (being the CPM member on the forums actually discussing Logistics, I should hope so), and just chose to ignore it to make your point. I was simply correcting that part so the peole not familiar with it aren't left with a false understanding of it. And, yeah, that was left pretty unclear by what you said earlier, no matter how you "apply the context" That's all. We done? Great. Go back to the regularly scheduled programming. @Meee One The issue with directly applying Eve roles to a game like Dust is that, frankly, they are very different types of games. Yes, the logistics role in dust should in many ways be closer to the eve one, but the dedication to full support role requires a lot, maybe too much, from casual players, both from the logi themselves, and the people they'd be playing with. As an eve type logi in dust, you would be fully dependent on your squad (which, yes, in a team based game should in fact be a requirement, but isn't, not in dust), which is hard when the other roles can all be entirely self sustaining in most situations. Yes, a good group that wants to work together will make this work and a squad working together will almost always beat people who aren't. But the overall playerbase in dust has shifted more and more towards casuals and solo play (even when technically in squad), it's just a natural reaction to the shifts in the game, the buffs to the various slayer roles (and, yes, all the non-logis are now slayers) have practically encouraged focusing on solo running and gunning (particularly for scouts, obviously). So what would be the incentive for a squad (or in more competitive play) to protect a full support player, who has no way of defending the squad's flanks or even themselves? In eve, it pays off, but in an FPS like dust... I think the overwhelming majority would consider a player that can't shoot back at an enemy to be deadweight, unfortunately. Now... If logis (and logis only) could set up defensive turrets (drones ftw) in exchange of not carrying light arms, well that... that'd be interesting ;) Also, obviously not something that would ever happen in dust, unfortunately :( Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2906	Posted - 2014.09.20 13:00:00 - [535] - Quote The original slayer logi epidemic was caused DIRECTLY by the logis originally having the caldari assault bonus to shield extenders, and being able to rock more fittings which allowed a logistics suit to brick up to the level of sentinels at the time. The only way you will get slayer logis now is by repeating the mistake that allowed logis to beat all other suit classes in the ability to fit and stack extenders and plates. Currently logis are squishy. They have a bigger hitbox than scouts. If they want to actually be a logi badass they have to sacrifice tank and weapon for equipment. Buffing speed is not going to make a slayer logi. Making the equipment bonuses better will not make slayers. The slayer logi is a symptom of not balancing EHP. Logis should be using their TEAMMATES as their primary HP buffer. But if we don't give thwm the ability to bricktank again? You will not see a slayer because the current meta is extenders > rechargers and plates > reps. While it's not really true it is the perception. But keeping the logis between assaults and scouts defensively will prevent slayer logis. You can literally buff almost everything else 20% and not have it happen again.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1177	Posted - 2014.09.20 15:44:00 - [536] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: @Meee One You're secksy! Aw shucks,you're pretty too. You must have ignored the parts about sentinel level eHP and scout level speed and regen. And from personal experience,i'm never expected to kill anything,i am however expected to rep and resupply. So,to a pure support player such as myself,a weaponless logi suit that gave the afforementioned traits in exchange would be amazing for my purposes. I like to leave killing to other suits anyway,this would just allow me to do what i already do,only better. Ask anyone who's ever squadded up with me,i kill 100x more enemies with my rep tool than i do with my weapon. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 798	Posted - 2014.09.20 18:11:00 - [537] - Quote Meee One wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: @Meee One You're secksy! Aw shucks,you're pretty too. You must have ignored the parts about sentinel level eHP and scout level speed and regen. And from personal experience,i'm never expected to kill anything,i am however expected to rep and resupply. So,to a pure support player such as myself,a weaponless logi suit that gave the afforementioned traits in exchange would be amazing for my purposes. I like to leave killing to other suits anyway,this would just allow me to do what i already do,only better. Ask anyone who's ever squadded up with me,i kill 100x more enemies with my rep tool than i do with my weapon. Yes, and all those things would be great - to a dedicated logistics player with a dedicated squad that wants to and is capable of working with that. And you are lucky to have that, I was just pointing out that would not, sadly, be the experience for a large part of the playerbase. And I do know how great that is, having a squad you can count on and play a dedicated role for, unfortunately most of my peeps I could count on like that have long moved on from this game :( Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2850	Posted - 2014.09.20 22:14:00 - [538] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: My point was that all of that was covered by my prior post so long as the context of the post itself is applied. sigh And my point was, that first, I disagree with your assertion that needlefucking gives a tactical advantage of any kind, and more importantly, follow me here, I was correcting your statement "made up for by the 60 wp per revive". Now the context for this is, I have played a support logi for over 2 years, I have heard all sort of accusations and missapprehensions about logis and logistics tools, mainly from people who don't use them. This particular one: "WP whoring logis go around mindlessly reviving people over and over again to farm them for hundreds of points" - which they'd know is not possible, if they actually used a needle themselves. [/quote] Correct, as I already stated there is a cool down, but it is not a hard cap, much like the cap in place on the wp generated by the repair tool (although the repair tool cap is much more lenient). And if we are applying player knowledge context rather than post context (for the record I was talking the context of the statement/post before) then we are more or less in the same boat as I have been playing support logi (still hate the need to clarify that I run Logi as support) since prior to Codex build in closed beta. Zaria Min Deir wrote: So, I simply don't want that misapprehension to be spread further on the forums, particularly by a CPM member. Now, I am willing to believe you actually were aware of the mechanic (being the CPM member on the forums actually discussing Logistics, I should hope so), and just chose to ignore it to make your point. I was aware of it yes, and that knowledge has nothing to do with being or not being a member of the CPM I also did not ignore it, however it seems I was not explicit enough for your tastes which is fine I acknowledge the concern. In light of how the "slayer logi" situation has been generally misperceived I can understand your concern regarding further misconceptions. Another current misconception, which is actually tied to the "repeated revives work to *** WP" misconception that you pointed out is the notion that using a needle is generally or innately a selfish or tactically invalid act. Zaria Min Deir wrote:** I was simply correcting that part so the peole not familiar with it aren't left with a false understanding of it. And, yeah, that was left pretty unclear by what you said earlier, no matter how you "apply the context" That's all. We done? Great. Go back to the regularly scheduled programming. Alright, you were concerned about a misunderstanding and wanted to make sure it was more clear, that's legit. Although this entire exchanged could have been concluded much more quickly if that had been stated upfront rather than responding with posts (honestly including the above quoted) which falsely assume I am somehow "ignoring" a mechanic. Be that as it may, you are correct this entire sidebar is getting off topic so closing the subject and moving on Breakin Stuff wrote: The original slayer logi epidemic was caused DIRECTLY by the logis originally having the caldari assault bonus to shield extenders, and being able to rock more fittings which allowed a logistics suit to brick up to the level of sentinels at the time. The only way you will get slayer logis now is by repeating the mistake that allowed logis to beat all other suit classes in the ability to fit and stack extenders and plates. Currently logis are squishy. They have a bigger hitbox than scouts. If they want to actually be a logi badass they have to sacrifice tank and weapon for equipment. Buffing speed is not going to make a slayer logi. Making the equipment bonuses better will not make slayers. The slayer logi is a symptom of not balancing EHP. Logis should be using their TEAMMATES as their primary HP buffer. But if we don't give thwm the ability to bricktank again? You will not see a slayer because the current meta is extenders > rechargers and plates > reps. While it's not really true it is the perception. But keeping the logis between assaults and scouts defensively will prevent slayer logis. You can literally buff almost everything else 20% and not have it happen again. Yep, even at the time it was really the Cal Logi (because of the extender skill buff) that was the true slayer. After that the fittings flex combined with the plate buff added some extra tank oomph to the logi but even then fitting a proto support logi did not result in a better assault (comparing similar racial assault fits side by side with the logi), support play never had the same ability to brick tank as slay play in a logi suit which has been one of the long standing issues. Anyway, Breakin you're on point here regarding keeping the logis defense between scouts and assaults. At which point cost to run the role needs looked at but that is an additional kettle of fish. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1179	Posted - 2014.09.21 09:57:00 - [539] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Meee One wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: @Meee One You're secksy! Aw shucks,you're pretty too. You must have ignored the parts about sentinel level eHP and scout level speed and regen. And from personal experience,i'm never expected to kill anything,i am however expected to rep and resupply. So,to a pure support player such as myself,a weaponless logi suit that gave the afforementioned traits in exchange would be amazing for my purposes. I like to leave killing to other suits anyway,this would just allow me to do what i already do,only better. Ask anyone who's ever squadded up with me,i kill 100x more enemies with my rep tool than i do with my weapon. Yes, and all those things would be great - to a dedicated logistics player with a dedicated squad that wants to and is capable of working with that. And you are lucky to have that, I was just pointing out that would not, sadly, be the experience for a large part of the playerbase. And I do know how great that is, having a squad you can count on and play a dedicated role for, unfortunately most of my peeps I could count on like that have long moved on from this game :( Lawl, 'dedicated squad'. Naw,i mostly run solo. Going 0/2 with over a thousand WP. I'm not advocating for a weapon removal from logistics,just a weaponless variety that allows more defense in exchange for offense. I am more than willing to trade my gun if i can support better. I also let people know i can't kill to save my life,literally. But after i get 2k WP with 0 kills they usually over look that particular little flaw. My weapon is so useless to me i often run around with the ion,magsec or even flaylock. Here's a channel where dedicated logistics and dedicated heavies squad up: -Heavy/logi funzone It has over 50 members from all timezones. Just put in Lfs and your role. The heavies will do all the killing. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 17794	Posted - 2014.09.21 17:31:00 - [540] - Quote I honestly find the idea of a weaponless logistics awful. Specialisation is one thing, but there is a point where you take it far too far. The forums have ruined me.

Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1185	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:02:00 - [541] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I honestly find the idea of a weaponless logistics awful. Specialisation is one thing, but there is a point where you take it far too far. Weaponless isn't defenseless. It would be a durable tank with high resists. High speed and regen. In eve they already have weaponless logistics. If they expect dust/legion to be a long term game they should take into consideration that a FPS shouldn't be just about shooting. And it would give logistics a unique trait. You can be a battle logi. Or you can be an Artificer logi. Battle logi benefits: offense Drawbacks :everything else Artificer logi benefits:exteme defense + can have a rep tool/scanner/injector as a main weapon Drawbacks :loss of offense I know several other players desiring the same suit. Can you guess why? Because the logistics suit with a gun is terrible at survival,and to us it isn't fair/worth it to lose so much survivability because of a single weapon. It's like saying assaults should be nerfed just as badly because of their 1 equipment. Tbh,we're getting fed up with being told excuses that it's a 'good thing' logistics dies the easiest,that logistics must stack plates because it can accel at nothing else. That scouts have the same equipment as a cal logi,yet keep all their weapons and stats. We see through the BS and hypocrisy easily and it's making us mad. And we get madder as time goes on and nothing is done about the hypocrisy and BS. We aren't unreasonable,we throw loads of suggestions at CCP but they are all ignored. Our pleas are ignored so badly CCP actually decided to fcking nerf* the weakest suit in the game the logistics suit. Remember the speed nerf? How damned ridiculous was that? Rattatai actually wanted logistics to go slower based on 'data',then in the same thread based on the same 'data' he said logistics shouldn't have such a high reduction to cloaks,scouts should. He couldn't even interpret the 'data' correctly and had to be corrected by the players. Yet he felt confident regarding the logistics nerf. I lost all faith in him right then. Removing offense is the only way i can see a nerf proof logistics. Tl;Dr you don't run pure support,so your opinion is worthless to those of us that do. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 16497	Posted - 2014.09.22 16:43:00 - [542] - Quote Coming from the guy that suggested sidearm only logis and carbine variants of current rifle weapons. I find the idea of weaponless logis horrific. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Advanced Large Railgun =// Unlocked
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7610	Posted - 2014.09.22 16:46:00 - [543] - Quote In summary for those who are just catching up to this thread; not only does Mee One make make the assertion that he actually knows about EVE even though it's quite obvious that he doesn't but he's also quite ignorant when it comes to DUST 514 as well. Mee One has earned the title of: Official Blueberry of the Forums. And for his classic Comment of "you don't run pure support,so your opinion is worthless to those of us that do." He has earned the Accolade of 16 year old along with his newfound blueberry title. Congrats Mee One, you are a scrub. Something's wrong when you regret Things that haven't happened yet
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2969	Posted - 2014.09.22 16:48:00 - [544] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I find the idea of weaponless logis horrific. I found it not worth commenting on, or considering seriously.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12282	Posted - 2014.09.22 16:57:00 - [545] - Quote No just no. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 17800	Posted - 2014.09.22 16:58:00 - [546] - Quote Meee One wrote: In eve they already have weaponless logistics. If they expect dust/legion to be a long term game they should take into consideration that a FPS shouldn't be just about shooting. EVE logistics is so vastly different in design that I don't even know where to begin in arguing against an understanding so fundamentally wrong. The only similarities are that they are called logistics and they rep. Logistics in DUST have a host of other roles and because the very nature of the game is so different and faster paced must be by necessity more flexible. An FPS shouldn't be about shooting? Do you know what 'FPS' stands for? First Person Shooter. Shooter. Quote: And it would give logistics a unique trait. You can be a battle logi. Or you can be an Artificer logi. Logistics already have a 'unique trait' in the form of being able to carry far more equipment than anyone else. Quote: Battle logi benefits: offense Drawbacks :everything else Artificer logi benefits:exteme defense + can have a rep tool/scanner/injector as a main weapon Drawbacks :loss of offense Do you... actually know how to fit a logi? The benefit of a current logi is 'offence', you say, and everything else is a drawback? Good grief. How are you fitting yours? Callogis with 5 damage mods and empty slots in the lows? Quote: I know several other players desiring the same suit. Can you guess why? Because the logistics suit with a gun is terrible at survival,and to us it isn't fair/worth it to lose so much survivability because of a single weapon. I know several other players baying for your blood for the sheer stupidity of such a proposal. The logistics suit with a gun is not terrible at survival. I have primarily played logistics since Uprising and I have zero trouble whatsoever surviving (provided I do what a logi is intended to do and stick with my squad). That a logi cannot sit in front of a heavy is hardly a surprise to me - But it is a most durable suit nonetheless and should one fit for the task and co-ordinate with squadmates properly you could laugh your way to Ragnarok in your protective gear. Quote: -snip useless biased hate rant- Tl;Dr you don't run pure support,so your opinion is worthless to those of us that do. And here we come to the best part of your argument. If you should take such a narrow view then I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by this idiocy. It's hilarious to me that you should assert that any past logistics nerfs were 'to the weakest suit' when logis were the staple of PC for a year. The forums have ruined me.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 799	Posted - 2014.09.22 17:01:00 - [547] - Quote Meee One wrote: Weaponless isn't defenseless. It would be a durable tank with high resists. High speed and regen. In eve they already have weaponless logistics. No, they have a logistics class than can choose to not fit any weapon turrets or launchers, which they often do, but all the eve logistics cruisers have turret and/or launcher hardpoints. So, they are weaponless by choice, if and when they are weaponless at all. Meee One wrote: If they expect dust/legion to be a long term game they should take into consideration that a FPS shouldn't be just about shooting. And it would give logistics a unique trait. You can be a battle logi. Or you can be an Artificer logi. Battle logi benefits: offense Drawbacks :everything else So, your "battle logi" is basically the so called slayer logi of days past? I can't see how anyone who actually claims to champion for the logistics role would want that back? Meee One wrote: Artificer logi benefits:exteme defense + can have a rep tool/scanner/injector as a main weapon Drawbacks :loss of offense Do you mean they CAN equip a rep tool etc. instead of a weapon (like eve logistics) OR that they basically have an extra equipment slot in exchange for a weapon slot? I know you meant the latter, but that's not actually comparable to eve either, just your personal preference, which I think you might be reasonable enough to see might not be a position shared by everyone else. Meee One wrote: I know several other players desiring the same suit. Can you guess why? Because the logistics suit with a gun is terrible at survival,and to us it isn't fair/worth it to lose so much survivability because of a single weapon. Your experience, maybe, and that's fair. I do however know that pretty much every single person I play, or have played, regularly with that goes down after barely losing a gunfight would prefer I have a gun to finish off the enemy so I can pick them back up and keep us all fighting, than have to run away from someone with barely any health left because I am entirely defenseless, or weaponless, if you prefer. Or for me to have the ability to use crossfire on a pesky scout that is proving too difficult for one person to finish off, for instance. But to each their own. Meee One wrote: It's like saying assaults should be nerfed just as badly because of their 1 equipment. Tbh,we're getting fed up with being told excuses that it's a 'good thing' logistics dies the easiest,that logistics must stack plates because it can accel at nothing else. That scouts have the same equipment as a cal logi,yet keep all their weapons and stats. We see through the BS and hypocrisy easily and it's making us mad. And we get madder as time goes on and nothing is done about the hypocrisy and BS. We aren't unreasonable,we throw loads of suggestions at CCP but they are all ignored. Our pleas are ignored so badly CCP actually decided to fcking nerf* the weakest suit in the game the logistics suit. Remember the speed nerf? How damned ridiculous was that? Rattatai actually wanted logistics to go slower based on 'data',then in the same thread based on the same 'data' he said logistics shouldn't have such a high reduction to cloaks,scouts should. He couldn't even interpret the 'data' correctly and had to be corrected by the players. Yet he felt confident regarding the logistics nerf. I lost all faith in him right then. Removing offense is the only way i can see a nerf proof logistics. Tl;Dr you don't run pure support,so your opinion is worthless to those of us that do. Now now, you're sounding like certain scouts who thought only they deserved to have an opinion at all on the topic of balancing scouts. Unfortunately you don't get to play logi in a vacuum, like the "pure" scouts didn't get to play in a vacuum either. I for one, as a logi, actually realize that non-logis might have good ideas, and are at least entitled to their opinion, even if I don't agree with them. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 131	Posted - 2014.09.22 17:05:00 - [548] - Quote Meee One wrote: They accel at assaulting.. I apologize for displaying my pet peeve and/or playing the grammar policeman, but... People who excel at something are excellent at it. Some cars accelerate quickly, but nothing "accels" because that isn't a word. Back on topic: As much as I would love to see a self repair function added to the repair tool, or a reduction in equipment costs, so logis aren't a greater burden on our wallets than running vehicles, the single greatest boon to my running a logi, would be a mild nerf to the decloak delay. Having almost no chance to dodge a scout's second shot, is a higher priority fix in my book, than any direct changes to the logi role. Short of fixing that though, improving the precision of all the active scanners, so we have a chance of scanning damped, cloaked scouts would be a welcome stop-gap measure.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 1245	Posted - 2014.09.22 17:12:00 - [549] - Quote This thread does not seem like it's going to fix Logi's at all Yes a Logi costs a higher ISK ammount IF you Proto crutch your Equipment slots... The base stats for a logi could do with a 'buff' and the bonuses should be less restricting. If EQ was 'generalized' in a way that gave equal WP for Supply/Spawn/Repair/Scan (est. of 15WP for each) Then all Logi's right now are on a closer WP footing, rather than LOLreps and LOLspamlinks being the go-to The bonuses should not just leave logi's geared to use 1 EQ, how to alter those I am unsure 0o? A buff to base stats - speed/regen maybe a small HP buff and maybe the old +5 reps for L5 would do a lot To add too many buffs is going back on the reason Logi's got beat down in the first place @ Meeeee One ... You keep being involved in Logi discussions, while boasting of 'lonewolfing' This makes me disregard any input you throw out as the first thing a frontline Logi should be doing Is supporting his squad. I am sure you have a hard time being support Logi while solo... But to buff a suit because mercs enjoy solo WP farming over supporting a team makes liitle sense to me. : Minmatar Logi L5 - I agree the Logi is behind the other suits, just not to the extent the forums would claim. Innapropriate Irrelevence... Welcome to the Dust Forum, hang around to see why everyone else left :/
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 799	Posted - 2014.09.22 17:13:00 - [550] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Meee One wrote: They accel at assaulting.. I apologize for displaying my pet peeve and/or playing the grammar policeman, but... People who excel at something are excellent at it. Some cars accelerate quickly, but nothing "accels" because that isn't a word. Back on topic: As much as I would love to see a self repair function added to the repair tool, or a reduction in equipment costs, so logis aren't a greater burden on our wallets than running vehicles, the single greatest boon to my running a logi, would be a mild nerf to the decloak delay. Having almost no chance to dodge a scout's second shot, is a higher priority fix in my book, than any direct changes to the logi role. Short of fixing that though, improving the precision of all the active scanners, so we have a chance of scanning damped, cloaked scouts would be a welcome stop-gap measure. Active scanners need improvements, absolutely. And looks like the next hotfix is at least going to feature a reduction to the decloak animation, which might or might not help. But we will see. The comparatively high price tag that comes with actually fitting a proper logi suit is definitely a point that has been raised many many times, and still bears repeating. Lowering the price of equipment would not be a direct buff to logis, but rather an incentive to many to use the logistics suit more in its intended role, and actually carry good equipment, as the potential losses wouldn't be as great. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"

Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2127	Posted - 2014.09.22 17:27:00 - [551] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross Something like making a nanite injector unselectable in the wheel when you're playing so you don't accidentally choose it when you want a nanohive or repair tool. I have Min logi to 5 and all equipment minus scanners to 5. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1185	Posted - 2014.09.22 18:47:00 - [552] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: In summary for those who are just catching up to this thread; not only does Mee One make make the assertion that he actually knows about EVE even though it's quite obvious that he doesn't but he's also quite ignorant when it comes to DUST 514 as well. Mee One has earned the title of: Official Blueberry of the Forums. And for his classic Comment of "you don't run pure support,so your opinion is worthless to those of us that do." He has earned the Accolade of 16 year old along with his newfound blueberry title. Congrats Mee One, you are a scrub. Yay,i have a new nickname!GöÅ(n++0n++)Gö¢ Good choice Kirky poo.n+ên+èn++n+¦n++n+ëS¦¦n+êGëºn+¦Gëªn+èn+ë/ Aw great now i'm getting embarassed my popularity is acceling (intentional) and idk what to say. (GùÅGîÆGêçGîÆGùÅ) Just keep yourselves under control my fans,there is enough of meee to go around.Gÿåd(oGîÆGêçGîÆo)b I shall wear that title,bestowed upon meee by my fans,with great pride.(GÇóGèÖ-ëGèÖGÇó) By passing all other posts... Would it be possible to have the missing sidearm on 3/4ths of the logistics be an equipment slot? Weapon swap would switch to it. It would give ADV logistics 4 equipment,and Pro 5. Cpu/Pg adjustments would need to be made of course. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 757	Posted - 2014.09.22 22:26:00 - [553] - Quote Completely unrelated to the current discussion but could we possibly get a slight PG boost for Amarr? The sidearm fits are just too high for anything but standard sidearms and lolflaylock which will be getting a PG boost in Delta. Also the Uplink boost for Amarr seems pretty weird on it. 1, you lose the boost when you die making burst Proto Flux the only real niche over the other Logi suits. 2, you have to use multiple Uplinks to get the most of it, but you can only use 3 at a time, unlike Min/Gal which can use 4. Finally it clashes with the sidearm since Uplinks costs alot of PG, and the sidearm eats up quite a bit of PG as well.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4078	Posted - 2014.09.23 14:17:00 - [554] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: In summary for those who are just catching up to this thread; not only does Mee One make make the assertion that he actually knows about EVE even though it's quite obvious that he doesn't but he's also quite ignorant when it comes to DUST 514 as well. Mee One has earned the title of: Official Blueberry of the Forums. And for his classic Comment of "you don't run pure support,so your opinion is worthless to those of us that do." He has earned the Accolade of 16 year old along with his newfound blueberry title. Congrats Mee One, you are a scrub. That's really only a summary of the last 7 pages or so, when the white noise started to drown out the pretty decent proposals by virtue of the sheer volume of bad posting. I threw up in my mouth a little bit with the no weapon option in an FPS. Gave up trying to reason with it right then. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 131	Posted - 2014.09.23 14:42:00 - [555] - Quote Meee One wrote: Would it be possible to have the missing sidearm on 3/4ths of the logistics be an equipment slot? Weapon swap would switch to it. It would give ADV logistics 4 equipment,and Pro 5. Cpu/Pg adjustments would need to be made of course. That would be awesome. Even without adding a slot, or tweaking cpu/pg, just making the left or right most equipment slot alternate with our primary weapon when we hit the weapon switch button, would be wonderful. Unfortunately, I imagine it would require a client side patch. But if that's doable, or a function that could be included in Legion, I entirely support that proposal.
RKKR The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1029	Posted - 2014.09.23 15:07:00 - [556] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Something like making a nanite injector unselectable in the wheel when you're playing so you don't accidentally choose it when you want a nanohive or repair tool. I have Min logi to 5 and all equipment minus scanners to 5. I find the O-shortcut to revive incredibly slow, this would completely ruin 'manual' reviving...and it's not that hard to select the right equipment in the first place...
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 328	Posted - 2014.09.23 21:04:00 - [557] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Meee One wrote: Would it be possible to have the missing sidearm on 3/4ths of the logistics be an equipment slot? Weapon swap would switch to it. It would give ADV logistics 4 equipment,and Pro 5. Cpu/Pg adjustments would need to be made of course. That would be awesome. Even without adding a slot, or tweaking cpu/pg, just making the left or right most equipment slot alternate with our primary weapon when we hit the weapon switch button, would be wonderful. Unfortunately, I imagine it would require a client side patch. But if that's doable, or a function that could be included in Legion, I entirely support that proposal. I too agree that this is a great idea, basically a hotkey assignment that would allow R2 alternating between the weapon slot and w/e equipment is in the 2nd slot. The frustration saved just from being able to quick-cycle gun/repper etc WITHOUT having to deal with the sprint-glitch would be priceless. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 328	Posted - 2014.09.23 21:33:00 - [558] - Quote Z3dog wrote: [quote=Meee One] 0/10 If logistics made up for its lack of eHP with evasion. Not necessarily a stat. [/quote=Z3dog] I agree, evasion is not a stat. The point, I think, Meee One is is getting at tho is logis' ability to move about while under fire (correct me if I'm wrong). And that aspect could be modified, if what others have posted about logi hitboxes being made large (like heavies) in a previous update to deter logislayers. Make the hitbox small again. Hell, give me that CalScout matrix-time-bullet-dodge hitbox so I can really bob and weave through my teammates while being shot at. Not a stat, but still an adjustable value. And a good idea. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 5764	Posted - 2014.09.23 21:35:00 - [559] - Quote JUST A REMINDER THAT WE NEED MECHANIC POINTS FOR REPAIRING VEHICLES, CRUS, SUPPLY DEPOTS AND TURRETS. COPY & PASTE TRIAGE AND RENAME IT. THANK YOU. "An abnormally heightened consciousness of one's self, which leads to a viscous circle of heightened awareness of self."
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2896	Posted - 2014.09.23 21:38:00 - [560] - Quote I have a couple specific questions I would like a re-focus on. 1. Current status of fittings resources (CPU/PG) per race from each player who runs them. In other words where do you see shortfalls and why? Does any aspect seem overly generous and where/why? Please make sure you are responding with regards to suits you can field yourself and bonus points if you include specific fittings and/or mods in your descriptions. 2. Presuming the notion of a secondary (weaker) equipment bonus were being added to the frames, what would you advocate those secondary bonuses be - please list by race and include the reasoning behind your selection - and would such a method, in your view, require the alteration or substitution of any current/primary bonus (if yes which ones, how, and what is the rational behind that). Thanks, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3076	Posted - 2014.09.23 21:58:00 - [561] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I have a couple specific questions I would like a re-focus on. 1. Current status of fittings resources (CPU/PG) per race from each player who runs them. In other words where do you see shortfalls and why? Does any aspect seem overly generous and where/why? Please make sure you are responding with regards to suits you can field yourself and bonus points if you include specific fittings and/or mods in your descriptions. 2. Presuming the notion of a secondary (weaker) equipment bonus were being added to the frames, what would you advocate those secondary bonuses be - please list by race and include the reasoning behind your selection - and would such a method, in your view, require the alteration or substitution of any current/primary bonus (if yes which ones, how, and what is the rational behind that). Thanks, Cross Since the Caldari Sentinel is a support role... I'll give you all time to die or recover from shock that I admit this... The PG/CPU is too tight. I haven't tested full frontal tank but 2 damage mods, complex extender, complex recharger, pretty much anything (useful) in the lows and a proto Heavy Weapon (Ishukone Assault Forge in this case) means you have to completely forego even a STD sidearm and Nade. None of the other suits must make this compromise. I know because I have them all at 5. You can run proto tank and weapon but crap for secondaries. The CalSent must sacrifice secondaries entirely to fit a similar setup. While I'm thinking about it. Be Right Back with the numbers. Ok the Heavy Damage Mods eat all the resources on the fit. Running three extenders and an energizer with regulator (complex) I can fit the heavy weapons with a toxin and STD nades. Oh, Heavy Damage Mods are Useless. Don't use them.
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 5766	Posted - 2014.09.23 22:22:00 - [562] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I have a couple specific questions I would like a re-focus on. 1. Current status of fittings resources (CPU/PG) per race from each player who runs them. In other words where do you see shortfalls and why? Does any aspect seem overly generous and where/why? Please make sure you are responding with regards to suits you can field yourself and bonus points if you include specific fittings and/or mods in your descriptions. 2. Presuming the notion of a secondary (weaker) equipment bonus were being added to the frames, what would you advocate those secondary bonuses be - please list by race and include the reasoning behind your selection - and would such a method, in your view, require the alteration or substitution of any current/primary bonus (if yes which ones, how, and what is the rational behind that). Thanks, Cross I run Minmatar and have done since beta (was the only one available lol), i also used the Amarr logi at proto for a good while but i think what i have to say applies to all logis. I think all logis need base hp scaled properly in respect to racial tanking ethics. I think they need better regen across the board. The lack of hp would not be so bad if we had better regen and maybe the native 3 hp/s armour rep back. They also need better speed i believe so we can get about quicker. As for the bonuses, i cba to repeat what someone said a while ago about all logis having small bonuses to all equipment but having their big bonuses for the racial equipment would be great. This means that logis will always be better with equipment than any other suit. As for cpu and pg, it seems fine actually but because our hp, regen and speed is so poor, we have to use a lot of it for hp mods + all that and equipment which seems to leave room for only std weapons but im fine with that. I would love to be able to run some prec mods and range amps without gimping myself as an example. The way i see it is that all the other suits are so good now that a tanked logi could never excel more than an assault or scout now. Theres plenty or room to buff the logis. Even a buffed tank and gank logi wouldn't beat an assault or scout at its role now. Also, i think equipment should go down in price. Sure some people are only logi to farm wp but for those of us who do it purely for it's intended role, its a real kick in the teeth. I don't like the fact that every facet of my logi is to support but yet it costs a ridiculous amount. Sorry if that as vague, it's getting late here and i cba to present what i have to say in a more formal manner lol. "An abnormally heightened consciousness of one's self, which leads to a viscous circle of heightened awareness of self."
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4079	Posted - 2014.09.24 00:11:00 - [563] - Quote That was me advocating all logi suits being better with all equipment than all other suits. As such, I'm not going to list a secondary bonus, Cross, because I don't think it's a good idea. As for individual suits fitting power, the Amarr desperately needs more PG. CPU is fine. Both laz0r weapons and uplinks are PG intensive, the Amarr suit is virtually designed NOT to use it's own racial weaponry and equipment. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2899	Posted - 2014.09.24 01:49:00 - [564] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: That was me advocating all logi suits being better with all equipment than all other suits. As such, I'm not going to list a secondary bonus, Cross, because I don't think it's a good idea. As for individual suits fitting power, the Amarr desperately needs more PG. CPU is fine. Both laz0r weapons and uplinks are PG intensive, the Amarr suit is virtually designed NOT to use it's own racial weaponry and equipment. For those who aren't going to go looking, the method John is talking about/advocating can be read here please feel free to pipe up if you are more in support of this method than than the lessor version which was proposed in my question above. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2899	Posted - 2014.09.24 02:27:00 - [565] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: As for individual suits fitting power, the Amarr desperately needs more PG. CPU is fine. Both laz0r weapons and uplinks are PG intensive, the Amarr suit is virtually designed NOT to use it's own racial weaponry and equipment. Can those with the Amarr logi please speak up here? Are you seeing the same issues? How much PG would be needed to make racially themed fits viable, bonus points for anyone who can give a direct comparison to the overall fittings for other racial logi. (and the amarr assault) Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4081	Posted - 2014.09.24 04:53:00 - [566] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: That was me advocating all logi suits being better with all equipment than all other suits. As such, I'm not going to list a secondary bonus, Cross, because I don't think it's a good idea. As for individual suits fitting power, the Amarr desperately needs more PG. CPU is fine. Both laz0r weapons and uplinks are PG intensive, the Amarr suit is virtually designed NOT to use it's own racial weaponry and equipment. For those who aren't going to go looking, the method John is talking about/advocating can be read here please feel free to pipe up if you are more in support of this method than than the lessor version which was proposed in my question above. Cheers, Cross I'll get around to editing that thread further in the next 24-48 hr, I've been liking the idea of giving racially themed partial bonuses instead of just the flat 1/3 of the "other logis" bonuses. For example, rep tools: the Caldari would get a bonus to rep tool range, but not rate, whereas the Amarr would get a bonus to rate but not range. Maybe gallente gets a little bit of both, idk, but obviously none would be able to match up to a minmatar logi rep tool. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Basmurick The Ra-lin Corporation 0	Posted - 2014.09.24 09:29:00 - [567] - Quote I originally went Amarr in the beta because I'm a bit of an Amarr fan in Eve and was a LogiBro Aspirant from the early days as I am in most games where that's an option. My thinking at the time was that being the tankiest and slowest of the Logi with the sidearm and regen at the time, that the Amarr would be great for being on the front lines with a relatively embedded squad on an objective that was actively taking damage. I stuck with the suit after the changes but feel a bit torn over my role now. I feel like it's a waste to not fit an uplink with my significant maxed bonuses for it, but it really isn't the playstyle I thought this suit would end up with. I tend to carry a rep tool and nanohive otherwise, but I really wish the uplink could be an injector instead. Why is the slowest suit the one with the bonus for deploying uplinks around the map? Why is the fastest suit the one with a bonus for staying in cover and repping their squad from the furthest away with a range bonus? I probably am missing something important here, but I just thought it was curious how lore seemed to win out over game design when coming up with the specializations for each of the racial suits. I don't see any reason why each suit has the bonus that it has other than it is that race's tech behind the art design for each piece of equipment. I realize it would be a nightmare to change the bonuses around now without a respec or to remodel the art and lore for the equipment, but I just don't see it coming together in an obvious way even just among the logi even before comparing them to other mediums or lights doing their job. The Amarr scout with the bonus to stamina and regen seems like it would be great for hauling butt across the map right in the beginning and dropping uplinks. I just wish logi had an equally clear purpose for their racial bonuses. I don't like that I have to sprint around as a scout to splatter the map and then switch to a logi to give them the bonus any more than I like that I can have 7+ uplinks out as long as they're all different variants, but right now that's just how the game is played (read:workaround for the mechanics we should have). As in Eve, if player's creative playstyles could be accommodated for and built into the game as intended mechanics, it's probably almost always the best solution. Too bad I have no idea how to do that. As a side note, running my ADV suit with all ADV gear and a buffer tank with some support weapon such as swarms or MD I do find myself maxed on PG with CPU to spare. I have been just 'working with it' by running with no grenade as I feel that is the piece of equipment that takes the least away from me 'doing my job'.
zzZaXxx Vengeance Unbound 575	Posted - 2014.09.24 11:07:00 - [568] - Quote I think all logis having equal bonuses to equipment is a great idea. It would solve the current UPness of logis and deal with a number of other problems as well. Spreading Gal logi bonus to all logis would enable all logis to detect scouts with proto scans, which would go a long way towards balancing scouts. Scouts would still be able to get under scans but they would have to fit 1-2 dampeners as status quo. This would be rough on Amarr and Minmatar scouts, granted, but you shouldn't have to be a Gal logi to detect undampened Cal and Gal scouts with active scanner. Any logi with a proto scanner should be able to provide this service. It would make logis more useful and scouts less OP. If all logis had the same repair tool bonus it would enable every logi to be able to perform this role effectively. It is really a fundamental support role for the whole class, and spreading it out among all logis would help to create an environment where more logis are actively engaged in support, which would give squads more options and encourage more teamwork. And it would give people who want to be an effective logi more choices, instead of forcing them to go Min logi if they want to be able to support better. Of course the Min logi bonus would have to be nerfed. As for uplinks and hives, they could simply be buffed a bit and the current bonuses to them nerfed. Then racial logi bonuses could focus on survivability. Maybe shield and armor hp for Cal/Amarr, and shield and armor recovery for Min/Gal.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 414	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:42:00 - [569] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: That was me advocating all logi suits being better with all equipment than all other suits. As such, I'm not going to list a secondary bonus, Cross, because I don't think it's a good idea. As for individual suits fitting power, the Amarr desperately needs more PG. CPU is fine. Both laz0r weapons and uplinks are PG intensive, the Amarr suit is virtually designed NOT to use it's own racial weaponry and equipment. The Amarr dropsuit: designed by Minmatar slaves. #payback Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2900	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:46:00 - [570] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: That was me advocating all logi suits being better with all equipment than all other suits. As such, I'm not going to list a secondary bonus, Cross, because I don't think it's a good idea. As for individual suits fitting power, the Amarr desperately needs more PG. CPU is fine. Both laz0r weapons and uplinks are PG intensive, the Amarr suit is virtually designed NOT to use it's own racial weaponry and equipment. The Amarr dropsuit: designed by Minmatar slaves. #payback I need to avoid drinking while reading this thread it seems posts like this a totally a laugh/choking hazard. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 414	Posted - 2014.09.24 16:37:00 - [571] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: That was me advocating all logi suits being better with all equipment than all other suits. As such, I'm not going to list a secondary bonus, Cross, because I don't think it's a good idea. As for individual suits fitting power, the Amarr desperately needs more PG. CPU is fine. Both laz0r weapons and uplinks are PG intensive, the Amarr suit is virtually designed NOT to use it's own racial weaponry and equipment. For those who aren't going to go looking, the method John is talking about/advocating can be read here please feel free to pipe up if you are more in support of this method than than the lessor version which was proposed in my question above. Cheers, Cross Here's my vote for a significant bonus on the primary racial equipment and a lesser bonus across all other equipment (along the lines of what that shiny slave master is suggesting). I don't have any specific comments regarding CPU or PG, except that I think that all Amarrian suits should probably have one CPU and one PG each. #DieAmarrianDie Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3123	Posted - 2014.09.24 16:42:00 - [572] - Quote Hate to say this, but HAV guns need a bit more juice. I'm against the removal of the rail splash because tanks DO need an anti-infantry method not dependent upon secondary turrets. The idea that HAVs should not be effective killing infantry IS asinine in my opinion. I know many disagree but bluntly the tank owner needs a better shot at defending against people like me. They need to be able to put supporting fire on an objective to suppress and kill infantry in a push. I think we have achieved overnerfing the offensive capacities of HAVs at this point. I would like to be challenged by them when I kill them. HAVs ARE support vehicles. They cannot support if they are impotent against infantry and only of use against LAVs and HAVs. yes people get mad when tanks start gunning them down. This is why AV weapons were created. The idea that an HAV owner should be wholly dependent upon SOMEONE ELSE to protect them was a bad decision IMHO. Should they be vulnerabe to infantry AV? they always were once the 1.7 insanity went away. As an AV gunner I have no sympathy to most infantry who will not swap fits to a tank cracker fit and then ***** that the tanks kill them too easy. Unless a tank is bricktanked, I have no real difficulty killing them. There should be a 50/50 chance of a tank busting my chops when run by a driver who is as good at driving as I am at AV. The survival rate just dropped sharply. I am an AV gunner, I have zero points dropped into HAVs. HAVs should not have their infantry killing capabilities taken away when Infantry still have access to AV weapons. expecting tanks to go play private party World of Tanks while infantry farm them is just as bad as tanks farming infantry with impunity. thank you.
zzZaXxx Vengeance Unbound 575	Posted - 2014.09.24 18:08:00 - [573] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Hate to say this, but HAV guns need a bit more juice. I'm against the removal of the rail splash because tanks DO need an anti-infantry method not dependent upon secondary turrets. The idea that HAVs should not be effective killing infantry IS asinine in my opinion. I know many disagree but bluntly the tank owner needs a better shot at defending against people like me. They need to be able to put supporting fire on an objective to suppress and kill infantry in a push. I think we have achieved overnerfing the offensive capacities of HAVs at this point. I would like to be challenged by them when I kill them. HAVs ARE support vehicles. They cannot support if they are impotent against infantry and only of use against LAVs and HAVs. yes people get mad when tanks start gunning them down. This is why AV weapons were created. The idea that an HAV owner should be wholly dependent upon SOMEONE ELSE to protect them was a bad decision IMHO. Should they be vulnerabe to infantry AV? they always were once the 1.7 insanity went away. As an AV gunner I have no sympathy to most infantry who will not swap fits to a tank cracker fit and then ***** that the tanks kill them too easy. Unless a tank is bricktanked, I have no real difficulty killing them. There should be a 50/50 chance of a tank busting my chops when run by a driver who is as good at driving as I am at AV. The survival rate just dropped sharply. I am an AV gunner, I have zero points dropped into HAVs. HAVs should not have their infantry killing capabilities taken away when Infantry still have access to AV weapons. expecting tanks to go play private party World of Tanks while infantry farm them is just as bad as tanks farming infantry with impunity. thank you. I'm sure this would be a great read if it were in the appropriate thread. Just because you think HAVs "support" the team doesn't mean they can be considered directly related to logistics and support. By that logic anything could be considered support. Please move your comments to another thread.
Songs of Seraphim Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 0	Posted - 2014.09.24 19:02:00 - [574] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I have a couple specific questions I would like a re-focus on. 1. Current status of fittings resources (CPU/PG) per race from each player who runs them. In other words where do you see shortfalls and why? Does any aspect seem overly generous and where/why? Please make sure you are responding with regards to suits you can field yourself and bonus points if you include specific fittings and/or mods in your descriptions. 2. Presuming the notion of a secondary (weaker) equipment bonus were being added to the frames, what would you advocate those secondary bonuses be - please list by race and include the reasoning behind your selection - and would such a method, in your view, require the alteration or substitution of any current/primary bonus (if yes which ones, how, and what is the rational behind that). Thanks, Cross I'm on my phone, so bear with me here... Before I start, this is my first post. I have max core skills in the Dropsuit Upgrade tree except the cloak, hand-to-hand combat, and cardiac regulation. I'm a Caldari Logistics and I absolutely despise the fact that my Caldari Assault has more CPU and that I have to fit a Complex CPU module on ALL my PROTO Caldari Logi fittings. I can make do with three equipment slots, but I usually forgo Uplinks on my suits to fit a Repair Tool, Nanohive (for the bonus), and Nanite Injector (anything less than a Wiyrkomi or Kaalakiota on PC is foolish); even so, seems like I wasted SP for Proto Uplinks since I basically have to make a trade-off with my suit (plus I can't put shield extenders alongside Uplinks since it DRAINS my PG. But, that's seems fine in comparison to the gimped CPU my logi has -- 350 base or 459 at max skills. I'm gonna use this example fitting to show how screwed we are in terms of CPU: 4 Complex Shield Extenders 1 Complex Shield Recharger State Kaalakiota Specialist Rail Rifle (using this as an example since it has lower fitting requirements) (No grenade) Wiyrkomi Nanite Injector Ishukone Gauged Nanohive Six Kin Triage Repair Tool 1 Complex Regulator This leaves me at 455/459 CPU (and 79/102 PG) but with no grenade and 3 slots in the lows untouched since I didn't want to go over... Mind you I have some fitting optimization... And I usually equip an Energizer and Recharger on my fit, yet I'm unable to do so since I don't have enough CPU. Onto my actual PC fit.... 2 Complex Shield Energizers 3 Complex Shield Extenders Ishukone Assault Rail Rifle (lower fitting requirements & skills into fitting optimization) Allotek Flux Grenade State Kaalakiota Nanite Injector State Ishukone Quantum Nanohive Republic Boundless Repair Tool Complex Shield Regulator Complex Ferroscale Plate Complex Reactive Plate And. Guess what? 1 Complex CPU module that I wish was another Regulator or Armor Repair! This leaves me at 616/620. Granted I spent a load of SP into fitting optimization on weapons as well. Sadly I used to have to use both a CPU mod an PG mod. But I can always dump SP to alleviate the PG issue. I don't even use that much HP in PCs since I have my heavy and assault to work with and keep me alive. As long as they do their job, I'll do mine. And that's when I'm not playing assault myself. I feel like I'm missing something.... but that's where I'm trying to get at. CPU needs an overhaul. PG is fine as is. eHP... Not too sure. Maybe a slight adjustment mirror the assault buff and regen for racial tank. I'd rather have more efficient regen than HP. Any other Caldari Logistics out there that you can add to this?
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 331	Posted - 2014.09.24 21:52:00 - [575] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I have a couple specific questions I would like a re-focus on. 1. Current status of fittings resources (CPU/PG) per race from each player who runs them. In other words where do you see shortfalls and why? Does any aspect seem overly generous and where/why? Please make sure you are responding with regards to suits you can field yourself and bonus points if you include specific fittings and/or mods in your descriptions. 2. Presuming the notion of a secondary (weaker) equipment bonus were being added to the frames, what would you advocate those secondary bonuses be - please list by race and include the reasoning behind your selection - and would such a method, in your view, require the alteration or substitution of any current/primary bonus (if yes which ones, how, and what is the rational behind that). Thanks, Cross Amarr/MinLogi, full cores. 1. If there is any suit in the game that should be capable of stacking complex mods high and low, using all proto equipment and have proto weaponry it really should be the logi class. 2. Secondary bonuses I think would be best if they were just a simple bonus to the "non-racial" gear not bonused by the primary bonus. This second bonus should be 1/2 to 2/3 the value of the equipments primary bonus for the respective race. So, for example, my Minlogi has the repper bonus but adds 1/2-2/3 the bonus Cal gets for hives, Amarr gets for links and Gal gets for scans. My AmarrLogi gets its link bonus and thenngets 1/2-2/3 the Min bonus to the repper, the Cal hives and the Gal scans. Seem simple enough? We keep our original bonuses (which are lore appropriate basically, and fine except the exclusivity across the class aspect) and get bonused decently for everything else, further solidifying Logis as the fiels equipment mastery class. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Basmurick The Ra-lin Corporation 4	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:30:00 - [576] - Quote This may be a disastrous idea but I wouldn't even be opposed to some sort of combat penalty on the suit so it could have the fitting and equip/module bonuses it needs without enabling the 'slayer' build to overlap assaults. Even something like a penalty to light weapon fitting to go along with the equipment bonus might ensure that we could fit proto modules and equipment with great bonuses but suffer on the level of a cloak to try and fit a weapon beyond adv. IMO Force logi suits to be true LogiBro, the SP investment is already there. Other suits have equip utility slots without being a dedicated support role for those who just want the odd toy.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 331	Posted - 2014.09.24 23:10:00 - [577] - Quote Basmurick wrote: This may be a disastrous idea but I wouldn't even be opposed to some sort of combat penalty on the suit so it could have the fitting and equip/module bonuses it needs without enabling the 'slayer' build to overlap assaults. Even something like a penalty to light weapon fitting to go along with the equipment bonus might ensure that we could fit proto modules and equipment with great bonuses but suffer on the level of a cloak to try and fit a weapon beyond adv. IMO Force logi suits to be true LogiBro, the SP investment is already there. Other suits have equip utility slots without being a dedicated support role for those who just want the odd toy. We are actually already combat penalized. Unlike every other combat suit we receive no weapon performance or fitting bonuses. That, coupled with our embarrassingly low base stat values, makes us already very direct combat ineffective versus the other combat classes. Further penalizing our already sparse self-defense abilities would be a very bad idea IMO. EDIT: reread the OP. I agree, it would absolutely be disastrous. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Basmurick The Ra-lin Corporation 4	Posted - 2014.09.24 23:45:00 - [578] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Basmurick wrote: This may be a disastrous idea but I wouldn't even be opposed to some sort of combat penalty on the suit so it could have the fitting and equip/module bonuses it needs without enabling the 'slayer' build to overlap assaults. Even something like a penalty to light weapon fitting to go along with the equipment bonus might ensure that we could fit proto modules and equipment with great bonuses but suffer on the level of a cloak to try and fit a weapon beyond adv. IMO Force logi suits to be true LogiBro, the SP investment is already there. Other suits have equip utility slots without being a dedicated support role for those who just want the odd toy. We are actually already combat penalized. Unlike every other combat suit we receive no weapon performance or fitting bonuses. That, coupled with our embarrassingly low base stat values, makes us already very direct combat ineffective versus the other combat classes. Further penalizing our already sparse self-defense abilities would be a very bad idea IMO. EDIT: reread the OP. I agree, it would absolutely be disastrous. There seems to be some general grumbling about our base stat values and I'll never turn down more survivability, but I think the issue is how to buff logi where they need it in terms of fitting ability and tank without making a tanked damage mod'd logi a better option than the assault. If we're going to get any kind of 'improvement' beyond more equipment tweaks I can imagine them needing to gimp possible damage projection to keep assault viable in the same way we can't become more versatile commandos. I completely agree that our self-defense could use some work in terms of survivability if perhaps not in offensive power. I don't really experience that much myself as I'm Amarr with a maxed pistol that has served me quite well, but I can imagine life without it. There's probably a good reason I see maybe one or two other yellow suits a day across all my games.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4088	Posted - 2014.09.25 02:11:00 - [579] - Quote The easy way to make a "combat" penalty is to simply NOT improve the absolute fitting stats of each suit (with the exception of the Amarr PG and Caldari CPU, as they are not proportionately allocated; an adjustment does need to be made there). Instead, keep the PG/CPU the same and just double the bonus to fitting equipment. That way you are enabled to use better quality equipment, or, if you already do, additional CPU/PG will be freed up to "un-gimp" the suit. At the same time, you avoid the issues of the past where the suit was too flexible and could be fitted quite easily for offense. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Basmurick The Ra-lin Corporation 4	Posted - 2014.09.25 02:26:00 - [580] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: The easy way to make a "combat" penalty is to simply NOT improve the absolute fitting stats of each suit (with the exception of the Amarr PG and Caldari CPU, as they are not proportionately allocated; an adjustment does need to be made there). Instead, keep the PG/CPU the same and just double the bonus to fitting equipment. That way you are enabled to use better quality equipment, or, if you already do, additional CPU/PG will be freed up to "un-gimp" the suit. At the same time, you avoid the issues of the past where the suit was too flexible and could be fitted quite easily for offense. How much need do you feel there is for a buff to base stats, movement speed, or the return of the native regen? The fitting bonus as you describe it makes perfect sense and I think most people are in favor of the PG/CPU adjustment, I suppose I'm just concerned about the suit becoming too appealing if changes beyond that are made (as nice as they'd be).

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4096	Posted - 2014.09.25 02:46:00 - [581] - Quote Basmurick wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: The easy way to make a "combat" penalty is to simply NOT improve the absolute fitting stats of each suit (with the exception of the Amarr PG and Caldari CPU, as they are not proportionately allocated; an adjustment does need to be made there). Instead, keep the PG/CPU the same and just double the bonus to fitting equipment. That way you are enabled to use better quality equipment, or, if you already do, additional CPU/PG will be freed up to "un-gimp" the suit. At the same time, you avoid the issues of the past where the suit was too flexible and could be fitted quite easily for offense. How much need do you feel there is for a buff to base stats, movement speed, or the return of the native regen? The fitting bonus as you describe it makes perfect sense and I think most people are in favor of the PG/CPU adjustment, I suppose I'm just concerned about the suit becoming too appealing if changes beyond that are made (as nice as they'd be). I think a person's answer depends on individual playstyle and philosophy. Some people would prefer logi suits to be "heavier" than Assaults, almost like commandos, because it fits their style. Others, myself included, would rather they be "lighter", with regen instead of tank, more speed, and better scan precision/profile, because it suits my playstyle better. Neither approach is "wrong", per se, but what we don't want to do is both, by adding a bunch of eHP and simultaneously making them faster and have better ewar. Then they run the risk of being OP. Some improvements need to be made, don't misunderstand. The base stats are different than fitting power, though. Buffing fitting power has a higher potential for abuse than adding 10% to base speed or something like that. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Basmurick The Ra-lin Corporation 4	Posted - 2014.09.25 05:05:00 - [582] - Quote Personally (and I haven't seen this anywhere else yet) I'd like to be able to turn slightly faster. Mind you, when someone comes up behind me and I start getting shot in the back, I agree that I deserve to die before I can turn around and defend myself as that's the importance of situational awareness and is the playstyle of some builds. That being said, blueberries sometimes don't move in a cohesive direction (imagine that) and I'll end up getting caught alone as I try to catch up to wherever the new group of them happens to be forming up, and maybe this is worse because I'm Amarr as I don't know if their slower speed translates to slower turning, but sometimes I'll turn a corner and see something which causes me to (HMG, Tank, red sh*tstorm etc) and I feel like a truck that has to do a 3-point turn to start sprinting back the direction I came as the rounds start to hit the walls around me to cries of "AMG SHOOT THE YELLOW". Generally I try to disengage rather than hold my own with my trusty pistol and I often feel that being able to change directions even only slightly faster would be a large Quality of Life improvement for me, but again that might just be my suit/playstyle and not a good general suggestion.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3139	Posted - 2014.09.25 06:18:00 - [583] - Quote Cross' OP specifically called out ALL support roles. Not just logis. Therefore HAVs are relevant to topic. Just because ya want it to be only about the logistics suit does not make it so.
RKKR The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1033	Posted - 2014.09.25 08:48:00 - [584] - Quote Caldari Logi > CPU No explanation needed I guess.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 336	Posted - 2014.09.25 18:39:00 - [585] - Quote Basmurick wrote: There seems to be some general grumbling about our base stat values and I'll never turn down more survivability, but I think the issue is how to buff logi where they need it in terms of fitting ability and tank without making a tanked damage mod'd logi a better option than the assault. If we're going to get any kind of 'improvement' beyond more equipment tweaks I can imagine them needing to gimp possible damage projection to keep assault viable in the same way we can't become more versatile commandos. I completely agree that our self-defense could use some work in terms of survivability if perhaps not in offensive power. I don't really experience that much myself as I'm Amarr with a maxed pistol that has served me quite well, but I can imagine life without it. There's probably a good reason I see maybe one or two other yellow suits a day across all my games. Thats my point though, even with buffs like we're looking for we still wouldn't be a preffered choice vs. assaults since assaults by bonus design will still perform much better in the role of assaulting. Don't forget, assaults now have their slot layout equalized to ours, so fitting potential is equal. As long as their base stats are relatively higher than ours, which they are and is ez to keep, their weapon bonuses make them better for assaulting. Period. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 336	Posted - 2014.09.25 18:40:00 - [586] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross' OP specifically called out ALL support roles. Not just logis. Therefore HAVs are relevant to topic. Just because ya want it to be only about the logistics suit does not make it so. Agreed. (vomits KickStart and Doritos) Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 336	Posted - 2014.09.25 18:42:00 - [587] - Quote Basmurick wrote: Personally (and I haven't seen this anywhere else yet) I'd like to be able to turn slightly faster. Mind you, when someone comes up behind me and I start getting shot in the back, I agree that I deserve to die before I can turn around and defend myself as that's the importance of situational awareness and is the playstyle of some builds. That being said, blueberries sometimes don't move in a cohesive direction (imagine that) and I'll end up getting caught alone as I try to catch up to wherever the new group of them happens to be forming up, and maybe this is worse because I'm Amarr as I don't know if their slower speed translates to slower turning, but sometimes I'll turn a corner and see something which causes me to (HMG, Tank, red sh*tstorm etc) and I feel like a truck that has to do a 3-point turn to start sprinting back the direction I came as the rounds start to hit the walls around me to cries of "AMG SHOOT THE YELLOW". Generally I try to disengage rather than hold my own with my trusty pistol and I often feel that being able to change directions even only slightly faster would be a large Quality of Life improvement for me, but again that might just be my suit/playstyle and not a good general suggestion. Amarr suit is a frikin' slug. I use one regularly and I hate every minute in it. Had I known it was that slow I never would have specced into it. And having the Min bonus for reptool range isn't going to save it. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Jack 3enimble Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 406	Posted - 2014.09.25 18:48:00 - [588] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Basmurick wrote: Personally (and I haven't seen this anywhere else yet) I'd like to be able to turn slightly faster. Mind you, when someone comes up behind me and I start getting shot in the back, I agree that I deserve to die before I can turn around and defend myself as that's the importance of situational awareness and is the playstyle of some builds. That being said, blueberries sometimes don't move in a cohesive direction (imagine that) and I'll end up getting caught alone as I try to catch up to wherever the new group of them happens to be forming up, and maybe this is worse because I'm Amarr as I don't know if their slower speed translates to slower turning, but sometimes I'll turn a corner and see something which causes me to (HMG, Tank, red sh*tstorm etc) and I feel like a truck that has to do a 3-point turn to start sprinting back the direction I came as the rounds start to hit the walls around me to cries of "AMG SHOOT THE YELLOW". Generally I try to disengage rather than hold my own with my trusty pistol and I often feel that being able to change directions even only slightly faster would be a large Quality of Life improvement for me, but again that might just be my suit/playstyle and not a good general suggestion. Amarr suit is a frikin' slug. I use one regularly and I hate every minute in it. Had I known it was that slow I never would have specced into it. And having the Min bonus for reptool range isn't going to save it. It kind of says in the discriptions that the Amarr are the slowest. Btw with you number of low slots you can make it fast rather easily.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 338	Posted - 2014.09.25 19:31:00 - [589] - Quote Jack 3enimble wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Basmurick wrote: Personally (and I haven't seen this anywhere else yet) I'd like to be able to turn slightly faster. Mind you, when someone comes up behind me and I start getting shot in the back, I agree that I deserve to die before I can turn around and defend myself as that's the importance of situational awareness and is the playstyle of some builds. That being said, blueberries sometimes don't move in a cohesive direction (imagine that) and I'll end up getting caught alone as I try to catch up to wherever the new group of them happens to be forming up, and maybe this is worse because I'm Amarr as I don't know if their slower speed translates to slower turning, but sometimes I'll turn a corner and see something which causes me to (HMG, Tank, red sh*tstorm etc) and I feel like a truck that has to do a 3-point turn to start sprinting back the direction I came as the rounds start to hit the walls around me to cries of "AMG SHOOT THE YELLOW". Generally I try to disengage rather than hold my own with my trusty pistol and I often feel that being able to change directions even only slightly faster would be a large Quality of Life improvement for me, but again that might just be my suit/playstyle and not a good general suggestion. Amarr suit is a frikin' slug. I use one regularly and I hate every minute in it. Had I known it was that slow I never would have specced into it. And having the Min bonus for reptool range isn't going to save it. It kind of says in the discriptions that the Amarr are the slowest. Btw with your number of low slots you can make it fast rather easily. I do agree with you though that logi's are too slow. Even my Cal that is supposed to be medium fast is a joke compared to its Assault brother Meh, only speed increase to found in the lows is to sprinting. Logis are too slow all around and the Amarr is definitely the slowest of them all. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2139	Posted - 2014.09.25 20:37:00 - [590] - Quote THIS IDEA IS FOR PROJECT LEGION ONLY Logistics should be heavy frames, similar to commandos. It's the best way to give them the EHP they need to do their role without the threat of them being slayers. Currently, med frames give far too little native EHP for the logistics to fulfill its role. The remedy: give them a bunch of slots to fit their defenses in. However, this, coupled with their decent speed stats and fitting capabilities (needed for equipment), allows them to cross fit into capable slayers, comparable to Assault suits (often better, though much less since the ehp buff to assaults). Changing to heavy frames solves most, if not all these issues: High native tank allows for a reduction of high and low slots without compromising ehp, while also limiting out of role variations. The reduction in speed really cuts into their combat effectiveness. It also has the added benefit of the threat of advancing troops "stretching their support" by them running out of support range. (This was inspired by Eve's Dreadnought and Carrier class capital ships. One being the highly defensive, massive damage-dealing behemoth (though slow and not agile), the other the highly defensive logistics apogee (though also slow and requiring offensive support). Dust was real! I was there!

Major IMPACT Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 14	Posted - 2014.09.25 22:30:00 - [591] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: THIS IDEA IS FOR PROJECT LEGION ONLY Logistics should be heavy frames, similar to commandos. It's the best way to give them the EHP they need to do their role without the threat of them being slayers. Currently, med frames give far too little native EHP for the logistics to fulfill its role. The remedy: give them a bunch of slots to fit their defenses in. However, this, coupled with their decent speed stats and fitting capabilities (needed for equipment), allows them to cross fit into capable slayers, comparable to Assault suits (often better, though much less since the ehp buff to assaults). Changing to heavy frames solves most, if not all these issues: High native tank allows for a reduction of high and low slots without compromising ehp, while also limiting out of role variations. The reduction in speed really cuts into their combat effectiveness. It also has the added benefit of the threat of advancing troops "stretching their support" by them running out of support range. (This was inspired by Eve's Dreadnought and Carrier class capital ships. One being the highly defensive, massive damage-dealing behemoth (though slow and not agile), the other the highly defensive logistics apogee (though also slow and requiring offensive support). I really like this idea. But I wouldn't really suggest replacing the medium framed logis al together. I would also suggest into really limiting it to where it is only used as "Heavy Logistic Suits", or it will replace the commandos. When do we get our hands on Jovian tech?
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2144	Posted - 2014.09.25 22:35:00 - [592] - Quote Major IMPACT wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: THIS IDEA IS FOR PROJECT LEGION ONLY Logistics should be heavy frames, similar to commandos. It's the best way to give them the EHP they need to do their role without the threat of them being slayers. Currently, med frames give far too little native EHP for the logistics to fulfill its role. The remedy: give them a bunch of slots to fit their defenses in. However, this, coupled with their decent speed stats and fitting capabilities (needed for equipment), allows them to cross fit into capable slayers, comparable to Assault suits (often better, though much less since the ehp buff to assaults). Changing to heavy frames solves most, if not all these issues: High native tank allows for a reduction of high and low slots without compromising ehp, while also limiting out of role variations. The reduction in speed really cuts into their combat effectiveness. It also has the added benefit of the threat of advancing troops "stretching their support" by them running out of support range. (This was inspired by Eve's Dreadnought and Carrier class capital ships. One being the highly defensive, massive damage-dealing behemoth (though slow and not agile), the other the highly defensive logistics apogee (though also slow and requiring offensive support). I really like this idea. But I wouldn't really suggest replacing the medium framed logis al together. I would also suggest into really limiting it to where it is only used as "Heavy Logistic Suits", or it will replace the commandos. Well, my ideas for commandos was to make them hyper-offensive assaults suits with huge bonuses to weapons and such with much less defense. Perhaps even their own LMG type weapons only they could fit and a light weapon slot or something. Dust was real! I was there!
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 341	Posted - 2014.09.25 22:51:00 - [593] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: THIS IDEA IS FOR PROJECT LEGION ONLY Logistics should be heavy frames, similar to commandos. It's the best way to give them the EHP they need to do their role without the threat of them being slayers. Currently, med frames give far too little native EHP for the logistics to fulfill its role. The remedy: give them a bunch of slots to fit their defenses in. However, this, coupled with their decent speed stats and fitting capabilities (needed for equipment), allows them to cross fit into capable slayers, comparable to Assault suits (often better, though much less since the ehp buff to assaults). Changing to heavy frames solves most, if not all these issues: High native tank allows for a reduction of high and low slots without compromising ehp, while also limiting out of role variations. The reduction in speed really cuts into their combat effectiveness. It also has the added benefit of the threat of advancing troops "stretching their support" by them running out of support range. (This was inspired by Eve's Dreadnought and Carrier class capital ships. One being the highly defensive, massive damage-dealing behemoth (though slow and not agile), the other the highly defensive logistics apogee (though also slow and requiring offensive support). No Thank You, I'll keep my medium frame with some buffing in the base stats over the idea that field supply is better served by me moving about at <4m/s but a million eHP. I can already taste the tears of the "Heavy w/a Light Weapon" qq'ers already. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Omega Black Zero Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 122	Posted - 2014.09.25 23:44:00 - [594] - Quote WP for repping vehicles would be nice, maybe +25 for every 250 armor repaired? obviously would cap your triage WP as would repping infantry
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 5795	Posted - 2014.09.25 23:46:00 - [595] - Quote Omega Black Zero wrote: WP for repping vehicles would be nice, maybe +25 for every 250 armor repaired? obviously would cap your triage WP as would repping infantry Repairing dropsuits = triage Repairing anything else = mechanic points "An abnormally heightened consciousness of one's self, which leads to a viscous circle of heightened awareness of self."
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 343	Posted - 2014.09.26 00:32:00 - [596] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Omega Black Zero wrote: WP for repping vehicles would be nice, maybe +25 for every 250 armor repaired? obviously would cap your triage WP as would repping infantry Repairing dropsuits = triage Repairing anything else = mechanic points I could be wrong, but weren't WP for vehicle/installation repair removed due to farming? If so, they won't be back any time soon. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 5895	Posted - 2014.09.26 00:34:00 - [597] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: Omega Black Zero wrote: WP for repping vehicles would be nice, maybe +25 for every 250 armor repaired? obviously would cap your triage WP as would repping infantry Repairing dropsuits = triage Repairing anything else = mechanic points I could be wrong, but weren't WP for vehicle/installation repair removed due to farming? If so, they won't be back any time soon. Just add a cap exactly like triage or make it 25 points per X amount of armour repaired. Done. "An abnormally heightened consciousness of one's self, which leads to a viscous circle of heightened awareness of self."
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4105	Posted - 2014.09.26 04:17:00 - [598] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: No Thank You, I'll keep my medium frame with some buffing in the base stats over the idea that field supply is better served by me moving about at <4m/s but a million eHP. I can taste the tears of the "Heavy w/a Light Weapon" qq'ers already. Agreed. Personally I don't like the heavy frame logi idea either, too slow for most tasks. I guess it's just a side effect of the singular focus on tank that's been the meta for several months now, non-beta players don't know any other answer. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 345	Posted - 2014.09.26 04:54:00 - [599] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: Omega Black Zero wrote: WP for repping vehicles would be nice, maybe +25 for every 250 armor repaired? obviously would cap your triage WP as would repping infantry Repairing dropsuits = triage Repairing anything else = mechanic points I could be wrong, but weren't WP for vehicle/installation repair removed due to farming? If so, they won't be back any time soon. Just add a cap exactly like triage or make it 25 points per X amount of armour repaired. Done. I'm not arguing against an opportunity to be rewarded for doing things I do anyway, but I don't think that even with reasonable limits WP for mechanical repping will be back. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 232	Posted - 2014.09.27 10:58:00 - [600] - Quote No to heavy logi. Yes to mechanic points. Give me a reason to logi again in a logi suit. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training

TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 6087	Posted - 2014.09.30 02:56:00 - [601] - Quote Schwing to the top. Ok.........now say that in quif.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3303	Posted - 2014.09.30 10:10:00 - [602] - Quote As far as logis go I think they should only be able to deploy a single hive or droplink at a time (this goes double for everyone else). With the caveat that the deployables should last significantly longer (if you are wearing a logi suit) and provide commisurately more benefit per unit. This would prevent: Quad armor hive tanking. Deliberate spam lag. Zerg rush lemming link placement. And would encourage loginerds to carry more options than four varieties of droplinks and/or hives. Repair guns? Scanners? Injectors? Limiting deployables will force more careful use than "spam all my hives around a supply depot to easy farm warpoints!" Once we do that, the logis need some survivability/escape/evasion love.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 1308	Posted - 2014.09.30 10:20:00 - [603] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: As far as logis go I think they should only be able to deploy a single hive or droplink at a time (this goes double for everyone else). With the caveat that the deployables should last significantly longer (if you are wearing a logi suit) and provide commisurately more benefit per unit. This would prevent: Quad armor hive tanking. Deliberate spam lag. Zerg rush lemming link placement. And would encourage loginerds to carry more options than four varieties of droplinks and/or hives. Repair guns? Scanners? Injectors? Limiting deployables will force more careful use than "spam all my hives around a supply depot to easy farm warpoints!" Once we do that, the logis need some survivability/escape/evasion love. Woah..... Nanohives are usually only only seen at depots as it is (love Dust Logic) This makes it less likely for 'pubbers' to use them at all.... although If we raised the re-supply ammount AND the WP for resupply I would be closer to agreeing with this It would make Nanohives more likely to be used in battle, rather than WP whoring EQ Innapropriate Irrelevence... Welcome to the Dust Forum, hang around to see why everyone else left :/
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3303	Posted - 2014.09.30 10:30:00 - [604] - Quote Armor hives near resupply points makes sense. Reload hives is just whoring.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2952	Posted - 2014.09.30 15:10:00 - [605] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Armor hives near resupply points makes sense. Reload hives is just whoring. I'd have to slightly disagree, I would say it is primarily a way to farm WP but some of them (at proto level), especially when more than one hive is stacked will feed ammo faster than the depot so for weapons like the MD or for heavy use of nades it can serve an actual purpose is select circumstances. But 9 times out of 10 you'd be right, it is only a method of grinding WP. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2952	Posted - 2014.09.30 15:58:00 - [606] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: As far as logis go I think they should only be able to deploy a single hive or droplink at a time (this goes double for everyone else). With the caveat that the deployables should last significantly longer (if you are wearing a logi suit) and provide commisurately more benefit per unit. This would prevent: Quad armor hive tanking. Deliberate spam lag. Zerg rush lemming link placement. And would encourage loginerds to carry more options than four varieties of droplinks and/or hives. Repair guns? Scanners? Injectors? Limiting deployables will force more careful use than "spam all my hives around a supply depot to easy farm warpoints!" Once we do that, the logis need some survivability/escape/evasion love. A few things here, first being able to deploy only one is in my view bad form and does not actually address most of the concerns, however there is a strikingly similar idea that I support (more on that at the bottom). Armor hive tanking, even proto based hex armor hive tanking, can be overcome without casualties by a couple scouts or a heavy lobi pair. I use these examples because I witnessed both during my play time last night. (In the case of the scouts they were even outnumbered by the 'blue' forces on the hives). I have still not seen any confirmation that deployed gear causes lag. I know many players believe this to be true, and I am not saying I can prove it to be false. But what I am saying is that every test on it I have personally run has shown no direct correlation and I have experienced my worst lag (out side of PC matches) in games where equipment deployment was mild (under 12 pieces total) to non-existent. Non-tactical uplink placement can happen no matter how many uplinks can be deployed, and does not become less likely with a limit of this nature because so much of the uplink spam is from people who are not actually playing support they are playing slayer with either a 'swap and drop' or the use of a burner suit. This limit would decrease the number of links they could deploy but not the practice, because it in no way effects their direct role (slaying). Meanwhile these 'fire and forget' assets would persist for even longer (if not bound to the logi suit) and would become closer to useless (if bound to the logi suit in the current methodology where buffs cease to function upon the death of the squishy logi). People who are actually playing support rarely mono stack equipment (more common with hives than uplinks in my experience). I have tried stacked uplink suits to test the viability of using them throughout a match, they run just over 185 to just over 219k ISK and between 374-554 HP (eWar fit, or brick tanked both including the effects of maxed skills). Now someone with a better gun game than mine could get better results no doubt but regardless of that it is hard to run these setups at a profit without heavy combat avoidance (alone the lines of run when you see red dots) and most Logibros run diverse equipment racks not mono tactics. I agree limiting spam is useful, though most often the culprits aren't actually playing logi (either being in a support fit nor focused on a support role) during most of the match, which I think is worth noting. Agreed that logi frames need some hugs to be viable in the current game state and that pushing that forward at the same time as an equipment revision is a sound path to take. Having said all of that here's the current alteration to the deployed equipment mechanic that I support. example numbers wrote: Current proto uplink: 2 active, 3 carried. 20 spawns per uplink (60 potential spawns in total). New characteristics under this proposal: 2 active, 12 carried. 5 spawns per uplink (60 potential spawns in total) Current proto nanohive: 2 active, 3 carried. 48 clusters per nanohive (144 potential clusters in total). New characteristics under this proposal: 2 active, 12 carried. 12 clusters per nanohive (144 potential clusters in total). This set up maintains current max potential while requiring active play by assigning smaller 'portions' to each deployed hive/link as they would require consistent reapplication to remain functional making support play less 'fire and forget'. This would also result in fewer wasted spawns and clusters for those who already actively play support as they would abandon less of their total payload when their squad moves/lose less when their gear is fluxed/destroyed. The other asset of this proposal is that I am reasonably confident it can be implemented server side solely by altering current item stats and thus is a low dev time solution. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ I also currently support the notion of support equipment by and large having higher fittings cost and lower ISK cost than present along with an improvement to the logi role buff further pushing sets of proto equipment into the purview of the support specialist role. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3362	Posted - 2014.09.30 16:18:00 - [607] - Quote I may be a little late to the discussion, but I figure I'll throw this out regardless. Experience: Minmatar Logistics since E3 build I think the failing with logistics suits is that they have become too specialized. This has been discussed by others before, but what are Caldari and Amarr logi's supposed to do after they throw down their deploy-able equipment? What is a Minmatar logi supposed to do when the heavy he was repping dies? What is a Gallente logi supposed to do if he has no squad to give intel to? In the game's current state, the answer to all these questions is either stay to fight, and die doing so because you are using the least combat efficient suit in the game, or run away. Logistics has no secondary function. Assaults have a little bit of everything despite the fact their primary purpose is combat, scouts have extra equipment slots despite the fact that their primary purpose is intel, sentinels have massive firepower despite the fact that their primary purpose is tanking, and commandos have a relatively high eHP pool + equipment despite the fact that their primary purpose is massive firepower. Logistics have what other than their equipment? A slightly better scan precision than assaults? A slightly better eHP pool than scouts? Better speed than sentinels? More grenades than commandos? It used to be that they had the best customization because they had the most module slots, but now assaults have been buffed and invalidate that perk. I think that to make logistics better you need to capitalize on one thing in particular and buff it. You could make them the second best EWAR suit and buff their precision/profile. You could buff their speed. You could buff their health. (but if it were a significant buff it should probably come at the cost of speed) They are already good at their primary role, they just need another thing on the side. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2955	Posted - 2014.09.30 16:48:00 - [608] - Quote It's spreadsheet time. This is the current amalgamated result of feedback gathered here, in game, through e-mail and skype as well as CPM conversations and some on the ground testing (you know, that whole 'played support logi as main role since closed beta' thing) by yours truly. The goal of this proposal is to enhance the fidelity of the logistics support niche, making it a more active role (i.e. less fire and forget/spamable) while promoting some unique advantages (one of these being more flexible racial affinity as that is a frequently stated community desire). In attaining these goals, which per force include better survivability, steps were taken to avoid overly encroaching on other roles in game (for example avoiding the "killer bee" CalLogi days of old). Please provide input on this spreadsheet via this forum thread and when doing so note that it is feedback on the spreadsheet proposal so as not to get any feedback mixed up (this is derived from previously provided community feedback after all ). Also bear in mind that some of these ideas may turn out to be beyond the scope of server only updates and thus could require further revision but I deemed it valuable to discuss the conceptual merits at this point regardless, and have made best efforts to note potential tech constraints which will require review. Finally I would like to reiterate my usual request, that being to keep comments and feedback constructive as while I love a good debate vitriol and hyperbole aren't very actionable and as such do not really contribute to the feedback process. Alright mercs, speak up. Cheers, Cross EDIT: Also, my spelling can be awful sometimes when dyslexia trumps spell check, so feel free to let me know if anything has slipped through and needs correcting. Thanks EDIT2: Thanks to the scouts of the barbershop for making my understanding of eWar upgraded from level 0 to it's current approximate level 3 (your input on the eWar ideas I threw at you was very helpful o7) See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5374	Posted - 2014.09.30 16:54:00 - [609] - Quote @ Cross - Bad URL Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2961	Posted - 2014.09.30 16:59:00 - [610] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Cross - Bad URL Fie! /me fights with google EDIT: Try now. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 852	Posted - 2014.09.30 17:05:00 - [611] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Cross - Bad URL Fie! /me fights with google EDIT: Try now. Still nada. No URL listed. EDIT: Working now! Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2961	Posted - 2014.09.30 17:09:00 - [612] - Quote \o/ the google monster having been cowed into submission I now return you to your regularly scheduled spreedsheet See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 419	Posted - 2014.09.30 17:09:00 - [613] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: As far as logis go I think they should only be able to deploy a single hive or droplink at a time (this goes double for everyone else). With the caveat that the deployables should last significantly longer (if you are wearing a logi suit) and provide commisurately more benefit per unit. This would prevent: Quad armor hive tanking. Deliberate spam lag. Zerg rush lemming link placement. And would encourage loginerds to carry more options than four varieties of droplinks and/or hives. Repair guns? Scanners? Injectors? Limiting deployables will force more careful use than "spam all my hives around a supply depot to easy farm warpoints!" Once we do that, the logis need some survivability/escape/evasion love. A few things here, first being able to deploy only one is in my view bad form and does not actually address most of the concerns, however there is a strikingly similar idea that I support (more on that at the bottom). Armor hive tanking, even proto based hex armor hive tanking, can be overcome without casualties by a couple scouts or a heavy lobi pair. I use these examples because I witnessed both during my play time last night. (In the case of the scouts they were even outnumbered by the 'blue' forces on the hives). I have still not seen any confirmation that deployed gear causes lag. I know many players believe this to be true, and I am not saying I can prove it to be false. But what I am saying is that every test on it I have personally run has shown no direct correlation and I have experienced my worst lag (out side of PC matches) in games where equipment deployment was mild (under 12 pieces total) to non-existent. Non-tactical uplink placement can happen no matter how many uplinks can be deployed, and does not become less likely with a limit of this nature because so much of the uplink spam is from people who are not actually playing support they are playing slayer with either a 'swap and drop' or the use of a burner suit. This limit would decrease the number of links they could deploy but not the practice, because it in no way effects their direct role (slaying). Meanwhile these 'fire and forget' assets would persist for even longer (if not bound to the logi suit) and would become closer to useless (if bound to the logi suit in the current methodology where buffs cease to function upon the death of the squishy logi). People who are actually playing support rarely mono stack equipment (more common with hives than uplinks in my experience). I have tried stacked uplink suits to test the viability of using them throughout a match, they run just over 185 to just over 219k ISK and between 374-554 HP (eWar fit, or brick tanked both including the effects of maxed skills). Now someone with a better gun game than mine could get better results no doubt but regardless of that it is hard to run these setups at a profit without heavy combat avoidance (alone the lines of run when you see red dots) and most Logibros run diverse equipment racks not mono tactics. I agree limiting spam is useful, though most often the culprits aren't actually playing logi (either being in a support fit nor focused on a support role) during most of the match, which I think is worth noting. Agreed that logi frames need some hugs to be viable in the current game state and that pushing that forward at the same time as an equipment revision is a sound path to take. Having said all of that here's the current alteration to the deployed equipment mechanic that I support. example numbers wrote: Current proto uplink: 2 active, 3 carried. 20 spawns per uplink (60 potential spawns in total). New characteristics under this proposal: 2 active, 12 carried. 5 spawns per uplink (60 potential spawns in total) Current proto nanohive: 2 active, 3 carried. 48 clusters per nanohive (144 potential clusters in total). New characteristics under this proposal: 2 active, 12 carried. 12 clusters per nanohive (144 potential clusters in total). This set up maintains current max potential while requiring active play by assigning smaller 'portions' to each deployed hive/link as they would require consistent reapplication to remain functional making support play less 'fire and forget'. This would also result in fewer wasted spawns and clusters for those who already actively play support as they would abandon less of their total payload when their squad moves/lose less when their gear is fluxed/destroyed. The other asset of this proposal is that I am reasonably confident it can be implemented server side solely by altering current item stats and thus is a low dev time solution. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ I also currently support the notion of support equipment by and large having higher fittings cost and lower ISK cost than present along with an improvement to the logi role buff further pushing sets of proto equipment into the purview of the support specialist role. I like this equipment plan. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 852	Posted - 2014.09.30 17:24:00 - [614] - Quote Will post more in depth later, but my initial takeaways... I would vote for method 2 in regards to the bonus changes. I would vote to split the difference with the changes to deployable and active equipment. Too big of a sweeping change imo. I would vote to half the proposed HP buffs, and further buff the regen. At first I was shocked at losing CPU and Grid, but then I saw the 50% reduction to equipment, but then I saw the 25% increase to actual fitting requirements. We want to make logis better with equipment, not completely take it out of every other suits hands, yes? I think we are making some good progress! Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 6087	Posted - 2014.09.30 17:32:00 - [615] - Quote MECHANIC POINTS FOR REPAIRING INSTALLATIONS, CRUS, SUPPLY DEPOTS, TURRETS AND VEHICLES. RENAME THE TRIAGE MECHANIC AS.........MECHANIC. PUT A CAP ON IT SO IT CANT BE FARMED. Regen and speed definitely need a buff. I won't bother repeating anything that has been said anymore than I already have lol. Ok.........now say that in quif.
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 6087	Posted - 2014.09.30 17:34:00 - [616] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Will post more in depth later, but my initial takeaways... I would vote for method 2 in regards to the bonus changes. I would vote to split the difference with the changes to deployable and active equipment. Too big of a sweeping change imo. I would vote to half the proposed HP buffs, and further buff the regen. At first I was shocked at losing CPU and Grid, but then I saw the 50% reduction to equipment, but then I saw the 25% increase to actual fitting requirements. We want to make logis better with equipment, not completely take it out of every other suits hands, yes? I think we are making some good progress! Boobs are a good idea. A face full of boobs never gets boring. Ok.........now say that in quif.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2967	Posted - 2014.09.30 17:49:00 - [617] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Will post more in depth later, but my initial takeaways... I would vote for method 2 in regards to the bonus changes. I would vote to split the difference with the changes to deployable and active equipment. Too big of a sweeping change imo. I would vote to half the proposed HP buffs, and further buff the regen. At first I was shocked at losing CPU and Grid, but then I saw the 50% reduction to equipment, but then I saw the 25% increase to actual fitting requirements. We want to make logis better with equipment, not completely take it out of every other suits hands, yes? I think we are making some good progress! Replies in order, and also thanks for the feedback looking forward to the in depth post to come Thanks, vote for method 2 noted - this is one key area I really hope to get a lot of feedback on. The difference between deployable and active equipment? Do you mean the change to fittings costs, because that is applied to "the big four" Links, Rep Tool, Hives, Scanner. Please elaborate on this so I know what specifically you're saying here I'm open to the notion of focusing eHP more heavily on regen than raw HP, care to provide some numbers for your ideal breakdown? (everyone else feel free to jump in on this point as well, yea, nay, degrees, whatever ) Current changes to CPU/PG, role bonus (i.e. equipment fittings cost reduction), and equipment fittings requirement increase are closely interlinked. The current method has the following effects (barring a few edge outliers, as there are a lot of possible fitting configurations. Fits based on the Logi frame that are currently running with all equipment slots filled will have a net gain in total fittings remaining after equipment is fit as compared to present. Fits based on the Logi frame which are NOT currently running full sets of equipment will have a net loss in total fittings remaining after equipment is fit as compared to present. (True even of zero equipment fits). This item further mitigates the potential for 'slayer' builds. The increase in equipment fittings cost (CPU/PG) at the current rate makes ADV equipment from "the big 4" has costly to fit under the proposal as PRO equipment from "the big 4" are in current game state. [b]This also serves to further mitigate spam play/increase the value of active support play by making it a more meaningful investment to field, not a grenade style "fill the slot with something because it's there" choice as is so often true now.[/b[ To reiterate, the only things getting that fittings cost increase would be Uplinks, Hives, Scanner, Repair Tool, the four pieces of equipment currently linked directly to the racial logistics frames. No other equipment is being altered in that manner and the cloak is having its bug resolved so logi will no longer be able to fit it with extra ease. I am interested in more feedback on this point, is a "one step" increase in fittings cost on the four main logistics equipment too steep a price to pay as a trade off for reduced spam and diminished slayer fit viability? Does making those specific pieces of gear harder to fit really take it out of the hands of other frames even with the built in ISK cost reduction? Are there better alternatives to making the logistics role more meaningful that do not require further constraints on use? (because clearly the current baseline of "swap and drop" game play from many mercs is not supporting the utility and definition of the role, rather it is feeding spam play). Cheers Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 6088	Posted - 2014.09.30 17:56:00 - [618] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: It's spreadsheet time. This is the current amalgamated result of feedback gathered here, in game, through e-mail and skype as well as CPM conversations and some on the ground testing (you know, that whole 'played support logi as main role since closed beta' thing) by yours truly. The goal of this proposal is to enhance the fidelity of the logistics support niche, making it a more active role (i.e. less fire and forget/spamable) while promoting some unique advantages (one of these being more flexible racial affinity as that is a frequently stated community desire). In attaining these goals, which per force include better survivability, steps were taken to avoid overly encroaching on other roles in game (for example avoiding the "killer bee" CalLogi days of old). Please provide input on this spreadsheet via this forum thread and when doing so note that it is feedback on the spreadsheet proposal so as not to get any feedback mixed up (this is derived from previously provided community feedback after all ). Also bear in mind that some of these ideas may turn out to be beyond the scope of server only updates and thus could require further revision but I deemed it valuable to discuss the conceptual merits at this point regardless, and have made best efforts to note potential tech constraints which will require review. Finally I would like to reiterate my usual request, that being to keep comments and feedback constructive as while I love a good debate vitriol and hyperbole aren't very actionable and as such do not really contribute to the feedback process. Alright mercs, speak up. Cheers, Cross EDIT: Also, my spelling can be awful sometimes when dyslexia trumps spell check, so feel free to let me know if anything has slipped through and needs correcting. Thanks EDIT2: Thanks to the scouts of the barbershop for making my understanding of eWar upgraded from level 0 to it's current approximate level 3 (your input on the eWar ideas I threw at you was very helpful o7) EDIT3: Seems the hyperlink isn't working for several people so I'm adding the raw one here in hopes that will work better: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OMpIZBbCMXXi4nkk-NykpDla7SCBo9nYmfIjV28Dp0w/edit?usp=sharing Its looking good but i think shield recharge should be 20hp/s and on that same note, assaults need at the least to be 25hp/s with min assault getting a buff to 30hp/s and caldari getting a slight buff as well. I think we need slightly more speed or a native 1hp/s armour rep rate that goes to 2hp/s at adv and 3hp/s at proto. This would stack with gallente as well. Im not factoring in brick tanked logis or assaults that use the logi as an assault as there is no point balancing against those types. We did that before and i have seen it done in other games, they just move to the next thing to abuse which gets nerfed and then they move on again leaving the 'proper' players of a role screwed. They are all running scout and heavy at the mo anyway lol. Ok.........now say that in quif.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2967	Posted - 2014.09.30 17:56:00 - [619] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: MECHANIC POINTS FOR REPAIRING INSTALLATIONS, CRUS, SUPPLY DEPOTS, TURRETS AND VEHICLES. RENAME THE TRIAGE MECHANIC AS.........MECHANIC. PUT A CAP ON IT SO IT CANT BE FARMED. Regen and speed definitely need a buff. I won't bother repeating anything that has been said anymore than I already have lol. Under the proposal the current triage mechanic would be revised somewhat so that use of repair tool, and injector would provide a consistent earnings WP gained to HP restored ratio. This is important to avoid the current problem where potential earnings actually decrease as quality of gear increases. This change would also offer value to repping scouts and other low armor suits, who in my view should not be punished simply for focusing on a lighter frame build. With the above changes in place mechanic points would follow the same method but the ratio of WP per HP restored would have to be different as installations and vehicles have much higher HP pools and making it more earnings effective to rep the local CRU than to provide reps for any of the mercs spawning from it would be an unfortunate direction to go, no? Hence the wording with regards to the inclusion of mechanic points, which I fully agree should be restored to the game. Question: Are you saying; 1. Good job, the proposed regen and speed buff are spot on 2. Reduce the HP buff, and further increase the regen and speed buffs 3. Keep the HP buff as proposed, but further increase the regen and speed buffs 4. Something else I am overlooking ? Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 6088	Posted - 2014.09.30 18:05:00 - [620] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: MECHANIC POINTS FOR REPAIRING INSTALLATIONS, CRUS, SUPPLY DEPOTS, TURRETS AND VEHICLES. RENAME THE TRIAGE MECHANIC AS.........MECHANIC. PUT A CAP ON IT SO IT CANT BE FARMED. Regen and speed definitely need a buff. I won't bother repeating anything that has been said anymore than I already have lol. Under the proposal the current triage mechanic would be revised somewhat so that use of repair tool, and injector would provide a consistent earnings WP gained to HP restored ratio. This is important to avoid the current problem where potential earnings actually decrease as quality of gear increases. This change would also offer value to repping scouts and other low armor suits, who in my view should not be punished simply for focusing on a lighter frame build. With the above changes in place mechanic points would follow the same method but the ratio of WP per HP restored would have to be different as installations and vehicles have much higher HP pools and making it more earnings effective to rep the local CRU than to provide reps for any of the mercs spawning from it would be an unfortunate direction to go, no? Hence the wording with regards to the inclusion of mechanic points, which I fully agree should be restored to the game. Question: Are you saying; 1. Good job, the proposed regen and speed buff are spot on 2. Reduce the HP buff, and further increase the regen and speed buffs 3. Keep the HP buff as proposed, but further increase the regen and speed buffs 4. Something else I am overlooking ? Cheers, Cross 3, but i think we should get one or the other with speed and regen buffs. Edit: that hp stacks quite a fair bit with level 5 dropsuit armour so now looking at it, we should get one or the other with regen and speed. Ok.........now say that in quif.

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2972	Posted - 2014.09.30 18:07:00 - [621] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: It's spreadsheet time. This is the current amalgamated result of feedback gathered here, in game, through e-mail and skype as well as CPM conversations and some on the ground testing (you know, that whole 'played support logi as main role since closed beta' thing) by yours truly. The goal of this proposal is to enhance the fidelity of the logistics support niche, making it a more active role (i.e. less fire and forget/spamable) while promoting some unique advantages (one of these being more flexible racial affinity as that is a frequently stated community desire). In attaining these goals, which per force include better survivability, steps were taken to avoid overly encroaching on other roles in game (for example avoiding the "killer bee" CalLogi days of old). Please provide input on this spreadsheet via this forum thread and when doing so note that it is feedback on the spreadsheet proposal so as not to get any feedback mixed up (this is derived from previously provided community feedback after all ). Also bear in mind that some of these ideas may turn out to be beyond the scope of server only updates and thus could require further revision but I deemed it valuable to discuss the conceptual merits at this point regardless, and have made best efforts to note potential tech constraints which will require review. Finally I would like to reiterate my usual request, that being to keep comments and feedback constructive as while I love a good debate vitriol and hyperbole aren't very actionable and as such do not really contribute to the feedback process. Alright mercs, speak up. Cheers, Cross EDIT: Also, my spelling can be awful sometimes when dyslexia trumps spell check, so feel free to let me know if anything has slipped through and needs correcting. Thanks EDIT2: Thanks to the scouts of the barbershop for making my understanding of eWar upgraded from level 0 to it's current approximate level 3 (your input on the eWar ideas I threw at you was very helpful o7) EDIT3: Seems the hyperlink isn't working for several people so I'm adding the raw one here in hopes that will work better: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OMpIZBbCMXXi4nkk-NykpDla7SCBo9nYmfIjV28Dp0w/edit?usp=sharing Its looking good but i think shield recharge should be 20hp/s and on that same note, assaults need at the least to be 25hp/s with min assault getting a buff to 30hp/s and caldari getting a slight buff as well. Just to be clear, I have done nothing in this proposal to alter any attribute of either the Assault or the Scout. Generally speaking further tweaks (buffs or nerfs) to either Assault or Scout are outside the scope of this proposal/balance pass so I'm planing to leave them be unless there is an extremely compelling case provided to the contrary because that adds a huge layer of additional complexity/balance concerns. EDIT: Also, further point of clarification, are you saying you would advocate normalization of shield regen for the logi across all races? Quote: I think we need slightly more speed or a native 1hp/s armour rep rate that goes to 2hp/s at adv and 3hp/s at proto. This would stack with gallente as well. Technically speaking I believe the speed would be easier to implement so of the two I lean that way (trying to make sure the proposal is as close to actionable for CCP as I can manage). That being the case what aspects of speed are you referencing here and what degree of change do you advocate? (I also wouldn't cry if you included your reasons why ) Quote: Im not factoring in brick tanked logis or assaults that use the logi as an assault as there is no point balancing against those types. We did that before and i have seen it done in other games, they just move to the next thing to abuse which gets nerfed and then they move on again leaving the 'proper' players of a role screwed. Avoiding role damage due to this exact phenomon is part of the goal here. The first round of nerfs to logistics survivability were - as I stated then - unwarranted in my view, barring the obvious change to the CalLogi shield extender buff which was needed. Most changes thus far - prior to the hotfix cycle - aimed at preventing logistics suits from being the FotM slayers hurt those playing support in them generally more than those using them for a once off assault fit. Taking steps to maintain fittings flexibility for those running equipment (which support players do) as compared to those using the suit without it, is one of the few means available to counter cries for the sort of role damaging nerfs which have happened in the past. Of course I am in no way claiming omniscience even with all the feedback reading and searching I've done so if there are other ideas on how to counter such trends I am more than open to them. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2972	Posted - 2014.09.30 18:09:00 - [622] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: MECHANIC POINTS FOR REPAIRING INSTALLATIONS, CRUS, SUPPLY DEPOTS, TURRETS AND VEHICLES. RENAME THE TRIAGE MECHANIC AS.........MECHANIC. PUT A CAP ON IT SO IT CANT BE FARMED. Regen and speed definitely need a buff. I won't bother repeating anything that has been said anymore than I already have lol. Under the proposal the current triage mechanic would be revised somewhat so that use of repair tool, and injector would provide a consistent earnings WP gained to HP restored ratio. This is important to avoid the current problem where potential earnings actually decrease as quality of gear increases. This change would also offer value to repping scouts and other low armor suits, who in my view should not be punished simply for focusing on a lighter frame build. With the above changes in place mechanic points would follow the same method but the ratio of WP per HP restored would have to be different as installations and vehicles have much higher HP pools and making it more earnings effective to rep the local CRU than to provide reps for any of the mercs spawning from it would be an unfortunate direction to go, no? Hence the wording with regards to the inclusion of mechanic points, which I fully agree should be restored to the game. Question: Are you saying; 1. Good job, the proposed regen and speed buff are spot on 2. Reduce the HP buff, and further increase the regen and speed buffs 3. Keep the HP buff as proposed, but further increase the regen and speed buffs 4. Something else I am overlooking ? Cheers, Cross 3, but i think we should get one or the other with speed and regen buffs. Edit: that hp stacks quite a fair bit with level 5 dropsuit armour so now looking at it, we should get one or the other with regen and speed. Thank you for the clarification See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 6090	Posted - 2014.09.30 18:10:00 - [623] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: MECHANIC POINTS FOR REPAIRING INSTALLATIONS, CRUS, SUPPLY DEPOTS, TURRETS AND VEHICLES. RENAME THE TRIAGE MECHANIC AS.........MECHANIC. PUT A CAP ON IT SO IT CANT BE FARMED. Regen and speed definitely need a buff. I won't bother repeating anything that has been said anymore than I already have lol. Under the proposal the current triage mechanic would be revised somewhat so that use of repair tool, and injector would provide a consistent earnings WP gained to HP restored ratio. This is important to avoid the current problem where potential earnings actually decrease as quality of gear increases. This change would also offer value to repping scouts and other low armor suits, who in my view should not be punished simply for focusing on a lighter frame build. With the above changes in place mechanic points would follow the same method but the ratio of WP per HP restored would have to be different as installations and vehicles have much higher HP pools and making it more earnings effective to rep the local CRU than to provide reps for any of the mercs spawning from it would be an unfortunate direction to go, no? Hence the wording with regards to the inclusion of mechanic points, which I fully agree should be restored to the game. Question: Are you saying; 1. Good job, the proposed regen and speed buff are spot on 2. Reduce the HP buff, and further increase the regen and speed buffs 3. Keep the HP buff as proposed, but further increase the regen and speed buffs 4. Something else I am overlooking ? Cheers, Cross 3, but i think we should get one or the other with speed and regen buffs. Edit: that hp stacks quite a fair bit with level 5 dropsuit armour so now looking at it, we should get one or the other with regen and speed. Thank you for the clarification Hehe, long day. Ok.........now say that in quif.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2972	Posted - 2014.09.30 18:12:00 - [624] - Quote I know how that can be o7 See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1638	Posted - 2014.09.30 18:22:00 - [625] - Quote maybe ccp should consider a twist on other games resupply and repair mechanics which do work and do not suffer the same problems as what dust equipment does but with a dust twist. take hives. why can't it be a simple throw a box of ammo down or med pack or in dusts case a small hive which quickly depletes. for the logi this could mean carrying an endless supply of hives which restock over time completely ruling out spam and replacing strategic placement of equipment which cannot move with the flow of battle with more effective fast clearing and purposeful deployments which can. the alternative is make them an active piece of equipment which can go with the logi and restock players within a radius. currently there is only 2 piece of equipment that require actual contact with another player and they are the repair tool and the needle. everything else doesn't require any contact with anyone. they can be used from anywhere at any time. for a logi that is supposed to be supporting the squad or team to have to leave all its equipment behind every time you move is wrong. hives and uplinks are not situational equipment. they are the life blood of any fight. without either the fight is lost. a simple thing like this would remove all spam from the game aside from uplinks. allow logis to essentially take all their equipment with them and use it in a more directed way rather than a throw it down and then see who needs it. this, needle, repair tool,scanner and the logibro never needs to leave his squad mates except to respawn. with carefully set timers and ammo counts per deployment and limits on how many deployed and how many can be used at one time this could increase the overall effectiveness of logis and bring more purpose to their role. All Hail Legion
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 6090	Posted - 2014.09.30 18:27:00 - [626] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: maybe ccp should consider a twist on other games resupply and repair mechanics which do work and do not suffer the same problems as what dust equipment does but with a dust twist. take hives. why can't it be a simple throw a box of ammo down or med pack or in dusts case a small hive which quickly depletes. for the logi this could mean carrying an endless supply of hives which restock over time completely ruling out spam and replacing strategic placement of equipment which cannot move with the flow of battle with more effective fast clearing and purposeful deployments which can. the alternative is make them an active piece of equipment which can go with the logi and restock players within a radius. currently there is only 2 piece of equipment that require actual contact with another player and they are the repair tool and the needle. everything else doesn't require any contact with anyone. they can be used from anywhere at any time. for a logi that is supposed to be supporting the squad or team to have to leave all its equipment behind every time you move is wrong. hives and uplinks are not situational equipment. they are the life blood of any fight. without either the fight is lost. a simple thing like this would remove all spam from the game aside from uplinks. allow logis to essentially take all their equipment with them and use it in a more directed way rather than a throw it down and then see who needs it. this, needle, repair tool,scanner and the logibro never needs to leave his squad mates except to respawn. with carefully set timers and ammo counts per deployment and limits on how many deployed and how many can be used at one time this could increase the overall effectiveness of logis and bring more purpose to their role. I love the idea of hives being an equipment module that buffs within a radius of the dropsuit. Maybe the built in module should have an energy bar so if it is used too much at once, it has to recharge if it is depleted. Maybe make it a variant bu the trade off is that the built in module doesn't re supply the carrier?. We cant be having logis running around with 4 proto triage hives equipped hahahahah, imagine that. Ok.........now say that in quif.
DarthPlagueis TheWise 130	Posted - 2014.09.30 18:33:00 - [627] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: maybe ccp should consider a twist on other games resupply and repair mechanics which do work and do not suffer the same problems as what dust equipment does but with a dust twist. take hives. why can't it be a simple throw a box of ammo down or med pack or in dusts case a small hive which quickly depletes. for the logi this could mean carrying an endless supply of hives which restock over time completely ruling out spam and replacing strategic placement of equipment which cannot move with the flow of battle with more effective fast clearing and purposeful deployments which can. the alternative is make them an active piece of equipment which can go with the logi and restock players within a radius. currently there is only 2 piece of equipment that require actual contact with another player and they are the repair tool and the needle. everything else doesn't require any contact with anyone. they can be used from anywhere at any time. for a logi that is supposed to be supporting the squad or team to have to leave all its equipment behind every time you move is wrong. hives and uplinks are not situational equipment. they are the life blood of any fight. without either the fight is lost. a simple thing like this would remove all spam from the game aside from uplinks. allow logis to essentially take all their equipment with them and use it in a more directed way rather than a throw it down and then see who needs it. this, needle, repair tool,scanner and the logibro never needs to leave his squad mates except to respawn. with carefully set timers and ammo counts per deployment and limits on how many deployed and how many can be used at one time this could increase the overall effectiveness of logis and bring more purpose to their role. And make uplinks disappear when the person who dropped them dies. That'll keep these FOTM bastards from trying to, as you say, leave them behind and switch to an OP slaying suit. They'd be forced to either continue to support the team for the whole match, or not be able to support the team at all. Actually I'd say if you died, and didn't spawn in as a Logi your uplinks should disappear. That way you could run in with a scout and place fast uplinks but when you die they would stay there as long as u switch to Logi. destiny sux
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2974	Posted - 2014.09.30 18:38:00 - [628] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: maybe ccp should consider a twist on other games resupply and repair mechanics which do work and do not suffer the same problems as what dust equipment does but with a dust twist. take hives. why can't it be a simple throw a box of ammo down or med pack or in dusts case a small hive which quickly depletes. for the logi this could mean carrying an endless supply of hives which restock over time completely ruling out spam and replacing strategic placement of equipment which cannot move with the flow of battle with more effective fast clearing and purposeful deployments which can. the alternative is make them an active piece of equipment which can go with the logi and restock players within a radius. currently there is only 2 piece of equipment that require actual contact with another player and they are the repair tool and the needle. everything else doesn't require any contact with anyone. they can be used from anywhere at any time. for a logi that is supposed to be supporting the squad or team to have to leave all its equipment behind every time you move is wrong. hives and uplinks are not situational equipment. they are the life blood of any fight. without either the fight is lost. a simple thing like this would remove all spam from the game aside from uplinks. allow logis to essentially take all their equipment with them and use it in a more directed way rather than a throw it down and then see who needs it. this, needle, repair tool,scanner and the logibro never needs to leave his squad mates except to respawn. with carefully set timers and ammo counts per deployment and limits on how many deployed and how many can be used at one time this could increase the overall effectiveness of logis and bring more purpose to their role. This style of game play is what the spreadsheet hopes to move things more towards. I acknowledge there are certain departures from the spreadsheet and what you describe however a full alteration of function as opposed to a change in numeric stats as listed in the sheets proposal, will come with a much higher dev hour cost and I am not confident it can be done without a UI update. While hives reimagined as an active module with a cooldown certainly have virtues worth discussing I think that is more of a Legion change then a Dust one tech wise. How do you think the current proposal holds up to your designs on the subject, even if it faces some obvious constraints? See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 6090	Posted - 2014.09.30 18:44:00 - [629] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: maybe ccp should consider a twist on other games resupply and repair mechanics which do work and do not suffer the same problems as what dust equipment does but with a dust twist. take hives. why can't it be a simple throw a box of ammo down or med pack or in dusts case a small hive which quickly depletes. for the logi this could mean carrying an endless supply of hives which restock over time completely ruling out spam and replacing strategic placement of equipment which cannot move with the flow of battle with more effective fast clearing and purposeful deployments which can. the alternative is make them an active piece of equipment which can go with the logi and restock players within a radius. currently there is only 2 piece of equipment that require actual contact with another player and they are the repair tool and the needle. everything else doesn't require any contact with anyone. they can be used from anywhere at any time. for a logi that is supposed to be supporting the squad or team to have to leave all its equipment behind every time you move is wrong. hives and uplinks are not situational equipment. they are the life blood of any fight. without either the fight is lost. a simple thing like this would remove all spam from the game aside from uplinks. allow logis to essentially take all their equipment with them and use it in a more directed way rather than a throw it down and then see who needs it. this, needle, repair tool,scanner and the logibro never needs to leave his squad mates except to respawn. with carefully set timers and ammo counts per deployment and limits on how many deployed and how many can be used at one time this could increase the overall effectiveness of logis and bring more purpose to their role. This style of game play is what the spreadsheet hopes to move things more towards. I acknowledge there are certain departures from the spreadsheet and what you describe however a full alteration of function as opposed to a change in numeric stats as listed in the sheets proposal, will come with a much higher dev hour cost and I am not confident it can be done without a UI update. While hives reimagined as an active module with a cooldown certainly have virtues worth discussing I think that is more of a Legion change then a Dust one tech wise. How do you think the current proposal holds up to your designs on the subject, even if it faces some obvious constraints? Nooooooooooooooooooo. in legion then lol. Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JYsQ8p3wM8&feature=player_detailpage Ok.........now say that in quif.
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1640	Posted - 2014.09.30 18:56:00 - [630] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: maybe ccp should consider a twist on other games resupply and repair mechanics which do work and do not suffer the same problems as what dust equipment does but with a dust twist. take hives. why can't it be a simple throw a box of ammo down or med pack or in dusts case a small hive which quickly depletes. for the logi this could mean carrying an endless supply of hives which restock over time completely ruling out spam and replacing strategic placement of equipment which cannot move with the flow of battle with more effective fast clearing and purposeful deployments which can. the alternative is make them an active piece of equipment which can go with the logi and restock players within a radius. currently there is only 2 piece of equipment that require actual contact with another player and they are the repair tool and the needle. everything else doesn't require any contact with anyone. they can be used from anywhere at any time. for a logi that is supposed to be supporting the squad or team to have to leave all its equipment behind every time you move is wrong. hives and uplinks are not situational equipment. they are the life blood of any fight. without either the fight is lost. a simple thing like this would remove all spam from the game aside from uplinks. allow logis to essentially take all their equipment with them and use it in a more directed way rather than a throw it down and then see who needs it. this, needle, repair tool,scanner and the logibro never needs to leave his squad mates except to respawn. with carefully set timers and ammo counts per deployment and limits on how many deployed and how many can be used at one time this could increase the overall effectiveness of logis and bring more purpose to their role. This style of game play is what the spreadsheet hopes to move things more towards. I acknowledge there are certain departures from the spreadsheet and what you describe however a full alteration of function as opposed to a change in numeric stats as listed in the sheets proposal, will come with a much higher dev hour cost and I am not confident it can be done without a UI update. While hives reimagined as an active module with a cooldown certainly have virtues worth discussing I think that is more of a Legion change then a Dust one tech wise. How do you think the current proposal holds up to your designs on the subject, even if it faces some obvious constraints? i didn't notice the spreadsheet. just looked it over. equipment seems ok but the cost reduction on the repair tool isn't enough in my opinion. its the single most expensive piece of equipment a logi can carry yet using it leaves you open do death. i think 40% off or bringing the cost in line with other active equipment would mean more players using the best over the worst to keep costs down All Hail Legion

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2976	Posted - 2014.09.30 19:00:00 - [631] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: maybe ccp should consider a twist on other games resupply and repair mechanics which do work and do not suffer the same problems as what dust equipment does but with a dust twist. take hives. why can't it be a simple throw a box of ammo down or med pack or in dusts case a small hive which quickly depletes. for the logi this could mean carrying an endless supply of hives which restock over time completely ruling out spam and replacing strategic placement of equipment which cannot move with the flow of battle with more effective fast clearing and purposeful deployments which can. the alternative is make them an active piece of equipment which can go with the logi and restock players within a radius. currently there is only 2 piece of equipment that require actual contact with another player and they are the repair tool and the needle. everything else doesn't require any contact with anyone. they can be used from anywhere at any time. for a logi that is supposed to be supporting the squad or team to have to leave all its equipment behind every time you move is wrong. hives and uplinks are not situational equipment. they are the life blood of any fight. without either the fight is lost. a simple thing like this would remove all spam from the game aside from uplinks. allow logis to essentially take all their equipment with them and use it in a more directed way rather than a throw it down and then see who needs it. this, needle, repair tool,scanner and the logibro never needs to leave his squad mates except to respawn. with carefully set timers and ammo counts per deployment and limits on how many deployed and how many can be used at one time this could increase the overall effectiveness of logis and bring more purpose to their role. This style of game play is what the spreadsheet hopes to move things more towards. I acknowledge there are certain departures from the spreadsheet and what you describe however a full alteration of function as opposed to a change in numeric stats as listed in the sheets proposal, will come with a much higher dev hour cost and I am not confident it can be done without a UI update. While hives reimagined as an active module with a cooldown certainly have virtues worth discussing I think that is more of a Legion change then a Dust one tech wise. How do you think the current proposal holds up to your designs on the subject, even if it faces some obvious constraints? Nooooooooooooooooooo. in legion then lol. Yeah, I mean I'd be happy to discuss the implications of wider changes like this if or when we get consistent client patches back into Dust but that is all revenue/business based and outside of my sphere as a CPM, so I'm not waiting for it, just working with what's on the table now Quote: Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JYsQ8p3wM8&feature=player_detailpage Thank you for this, totally cracked me up See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3188	Posted - 2014.09.30 19:04:00 - [632] - Quote Cross, I'll mirror some of our conversation points here for the sake of discussion. - +1HP/s Armor Repair for all Logi suits - As more time has gone on, this feels like a no brainer. With rare exception, almost every suit in Dust relies on its armor to some degree, and I've shied away from shield dropsuits because of that fact, simply because I dont want to waste a low slot just to have any form of armor regen. I think this would be a good idea for all dropsuits, not just logis. - Stamina Buff - Stamina Buff is awesome. It doesn't really add much to instantaneous combat effectiveness like Sprint Speed does, but it still allows the Logi to keep pace with other units in the long run so it can provide support without slowing the squad down too much. - Scans - I won't claim to be an expert in EWAR, but I think giving the Logi's a little bit more of an edge over other suits (sans Scouts) is reasonable. It means that can still provide limited scanning/dampening in a pinch when a Scout is unavailable. It's a mild buff, but I think it gives the Logis another partial role which isn't a bad thing. - Skill Bonus Rework - Not a huge fan of Method 1, as I think it makes each logi feel less unique and too homogenized. Each Logi should feel useful, but also unique. We need to find a middle ground between "Good at only one thing" and "Good at everything, just like everyone else." Method 2 is more reasonable, I think it gives the Logi more flexibility in how it plays while still maintaining a decent amount of individuality. I'm obviously biased to Method 3 since I was the one that initially proposed it haha. I feel that the act of repping should be a primary focus for all Logistics, and as such they should all receive a bonus to it. Ideally I'd like a Shield Repair Bonus for Caldari and Minmatar, and an Armor Bonus for Gallente and Amarr, but if only armor reps are possible a blanket bonus for all Logis is fine. Minmatar would then of course get a replacement bonus such as the remotes/proxies to really hammer in that Logistics role of "Indirect Combat Support". - Equipment Cost - Big fan of making it harder for non-logi roles to fulfill the logi role glares at scouts. From the start I've felt the CPU/PG reduction on the Logi was too damn low, so increasing that makes sense. Also increasing the PG/CPU of the equipment, but by a lesser amount, means that the Logi is still seeing a net decrease in cost of what....16%-ish? While making it harder for non-Logi roles to equip top tier equipment, thus increasing the overall value of the Logistics suit in the squad. The best bit about this is you've increased the fitting potential of the Logi but for equipment only. So even if they fit zero equipment, this change doesn't increase their defense/offense. Overall pretty solid proposal. I didn't dig into the nitty gritty details about the changes to the base CPU/PG and how that affects fits overall, so I can't comment much on that. Even so, good stuff all around. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2979	Posted - 2014.09.30 19:10:00 - [633] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: i didn't notice the spreadsheet. just looked it over. equipment seems ok but the cost reduction on the repair tool isn't enough in my opinion. its the single most expensive piece of equipment a logi can carry yet using it leaves you open do death. i think 40% off or bringing the cost in line with other active equipment would mean more players using the best over the worst to keep costs down That brings up a very good point, and one which I must sheepishly admit I overlooked in the spreadsheet, that being the cost comparison between pieces of equipment. Heretofore I have not touched the comparative costs of equipment but would like to open the floor for that now. I wish to invite everyone to comment on the relative cost and balance within the equipment line, which mods cost too much PG or CPU, which cost too little, where are the perceived gaps between value and function? This is good information to include, mercs I'd like your input. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5386	Posted - 2014.09.30 19:20:00 - [634] - Quote @ Cross I'm really liking this spreadsheet; solid content, superb presentation. o7 A few requests for clarification: On Proximity Mines - In addition to the proposed increase in carrying capacity, the Demolitions Skill change appears to apply an unmitigated +25% to damage. Is this intentional? On Remote Explosives - On what grounds are we extending RE arming sequence again? What specific length in delay do you intend to propose? On Deployables Reimagined - Assuming this concept were implemented, roughly how many charge sniper rifle rounds would one compact nanohive dispense? M1 Locus grenades? On +25% to EQ PG/CPU - From a Scout's POV, this tax will make it tough to fit any EQ of value alongside a cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will especially impact lower level Scouts who have a hard time fitting anything alongside a cloak. Is this intentional? And if so, why? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 854	Posted - 2014.09.30 19:33:00 - [635] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Replies in order, and also thanks for the feedback looking forward to the in depth post to come Thanks, vote for method 2 noted - this is one key area I really hope to get a lot of feedback on. The main reason I prefer this method is for the extra buffs per racial suit. This allows each suit to be better with equipment, but still maintain some semblance of individuality. As much as I would like to have the blanket buff to all equipment, it blurs the reasons for picking one suit over the others. I would even go so far as to add a fourth even smaller bonus to round out the "Big 4" as you put it. Cross Atu wrote: The difference between deployable and active equipment? Do you mean the change to fittings costs, because that is applied to "the big four" Links, Rep Tool, Hives, Scanner. Please elaborate on this so I know what specifically you're saying here My bad, by deployable I mean carried. Again, I would split the difference. Something along the lines of 6 carried, 2 active, 10 spawns for links. 6 carried, 2 active, 24 clusters per hive. No instapop, but also more strategic versus drop and forget. The other question is what happens to special equipment such as Gauged Hives? Would you still be able to carry and deploy more of them versus their cheaper counterparts? Cross Atu wrote: I'm open to the notion of focusing eHP more heavily on regen than raw HP, care to provide some numbers for your ideal breakdown? (everyone else feel free to jump in on this point as well, yea, nay, degrees, whatever ) I'm all for slight HP buffs, but with max skills Logis will be quite tankable again with those numbers. I think Min at 125, 175. Amarr at 120, 240. Gal at 110, 220. Cal at 220, 110. Each race still gets a buff, just slightly less so to compensate for Core Skills. I would be willing to go even less than this as well. Say a flat 30 HP buff to each suit. Cross Atu wrote: Current changes to CPU/PG, role bonus (i.e. equipment fittings cost reduction), and equipment fittings requirement increase are closely interlinked. The current method has the following effects (barring a few edge outliers, as there are a lot of possible fitting configurations. I love that this big change is also a big incentive to put equipment in every slot. Again, my concern is that the other suits will no longer be able to carry meaningful equipment, especially with the proposed radical change to carried and active equipment. How is a Basic Hive going to help my Min Commando hold a point with my Swarms if it pops after 1 clip? This incentive to place better equipment on your suit would be an indirect nerf to all other suits. I'm all for forcing Logis to fill all their equipment slots, I just don't think these changes are the solution. A step in the right direction, yes. This brings me to Regen, Speed, and EWAR. I love that you added the 1HP/s back. Gal still gets more, that's their thing, but even 1HP/s is huge for Logis. The stamina boosts are nice as well. Shield recharge timers are fine for depleted, but I would shave off a second for normal delay, as well as buff the amount of regen to match the assaults. They are the same suit basically, why would they have different amounts of shields regenerated? Is it due to the slightly quicker regen timer? To be fair, I would shave a second off of the Assault regen timer as well. With speed, I would only change movement speed. I would have it match their corresponding racial Assault variant. Again, they are the same suit. I would leave the Assaults with the higher sprint speed however. We are carrying heavy equipment after all! In regards to EWAR, Logis are a little lacking here as well. I think a flat 45dB for precision and profile would go a long way. Slightly better than Assaults, but not stepping onto a Scout's toes. The scan range buff is awesome as well. Anywho, that's my two bits for now. Feel free to praise or ridicule as need be, lol. Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2979	Posted - 2014.09.30 19:44:00 - [636] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Cross I'm really liking this spreadsheet; solid content, superb presentation. o7 Thanks, and thank you again for your efforts with that math tab helping me get my head around the eWar. Quote: A few requests for clarification: On Proximity Mines - In addition to the proposed increase in carrying capacity, the Demolitions Skill change appears to apply an unmitigated +25% to damage. Is this intentional? On Remote Explosives - On what grounds are we extending RE arming sequence again? What specific length in delay do you intend to propose? On Deployables Reimagined - Assuming this concept were implemented, roughly how many charge sniper rifle rounds would one compact nanohive dispense? M1 Locus grenades? 1. Yes it is a straight up buff to proximity mines, they are usually only useful (barring being combined with REs or other forms of AV) in stacks of 3 or more, considering their playloads (max carried and max deployed) that makes their current use case exceptionally narrow, when was the last time anyone ran proxies in a single equipment slot on a non-depot swap suit? 2. Specific length is undetermined but intended to be minor (would like barber feedback on that actually). As to the lengthening of the arming timer (again for the thread I'll reiterate that it is not the triggering timer) it is due to continued RE prevalence as a Locus Grenade style asset. REs have a diverse set of applications which is as it should be however when they prove to be generally more effective - as a diverse asset - within the role of an existing singular asset, that is problematic. REs as AV, or as traps, or to drop round a corner to lure the unwary are great applications, but when REs can be used to grenade toss at a group of mercs for multiple fast action kills (as has happened in several of my Delta matches as recently as last night), that seems to be exceeding their use case/role because the only way for grenades to be effective in that context would be to buff them until they are meaningfully better at those attacks than REs and that starts to take us back into the days of contact nade spam. 3. The compact nanohive is a bit of an exception, due to its status as a single carried single deployed item it would remain unchanged by the Deployables Reimagined aspect of the spreadsheet and would retain current functionality. As to how many rounds of charged sniper ammo that current value is, I honestly do not know off the top of my head, same for M1 Locus et al. Total number of X ammo resupplied under the proposal, the max payload, remains unchanged, it is only the portions per hive in each version that are altered therefore any hive without more than one will remain the same. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2980	Posted - 2014.09.30 20:36:00 - [637] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: My bad, by deployable I mean carried. Again, I would split the difference. Something along the lines of 6 carried, 2 active, 10 spawns for links. 6 carried, 2 active, 24 clusters per hive. No instapop, but also more strategic versus drop and forget. The other question is what happens to special equipment such as Gauged Hives? Would you still be able to carry and deploy more of them versus their cheaper counterparts? Gotcah Yes special cases such as the Gauged Hives would still provide their benefits Ishukone Gauged Nanohive wrote: Current Max Active 3 Max Carried 4 Clusters per hive 48 Proposed Max Active 3 Max Carried 16 Clusters per hive 12 The max active is staying the same as current the current value in all cases as part of the goal of this proposed change is to reduce the "spamability" of deployed equipment. As to splitting the difference, I am not vehemently opposed to that however I would suggest that, since these are imminently hotfixible values (as I understand it) we start with the smallest/most fact cycle method and scale back as/if needed once support players have had a chance to test them in "real world" contexts and CCP has had the chance to gather metrics. Does that seem reasonable or am I perhaps missing something? Booby Tuesdays wrote: I'm all for slight HP buffs, but with max skills Logis will be quite tankable again with those numbers. I think Min at 125, 175. Amarr at 120, 240. Gal at 110, 220. Cal at 220, 110. Each race still gets a buff, just slightly less so to compensate for Core Skills. I would be willing to go even less than this as well. Say a flat 30 HP buff to each suit. I have tried to focus on minimal wide spectrum buffs rather than more substantial specific buffs in the initial document. That being said I am not against a more regen heavy ratio with lower buffer values if that is the community preference. Both are, I believe, viable, so I will be keenly watching the feedback with regards to this aspect. Cross Atu wrote: Current changes to CPU/PG, role bonus (i.e. equipment fittings cost reduction), and equipment fittings requirement increase are closely interlinked. The current method has the following effects (barring a few edge outliers, as there are a lot of possible fitting configurations. Booby Tuesdays wrote: I love that this big change is also a big incentive to put equipment in every slot. Again, my concern is that the other suits will no longer be able to carry meaningful equipment, especially with the proposed radical change to carried and active equipment. How is a Basic Hive going to help my Min Commando hold a point with my Swarms if it pops after 1 clip? This incentive to place better equipment on your suit would be an indirect nerf to all other suits. I'm all for forcing Logis to fill all their equipment slots, I just don't think these changes are the solution. A step in the right direction, yes. The overall net change for other classes amounts to "can now fit advanced at the prior fittings cost of proto" with respects to the big four. Outside of the big for there is no fittings implication for other classes. I know I am in a sense recovering ground here but is fitting proto rep tool/hive/link/scanner at their current CPU/PG cost really endemically vital to the role of any other class? At some level this is certainly a substantive restriction there is no doubt, however if the logistics role is to be support, and that support is focused primarily on the big four, but the use/need for those items can already be filled (as it is now) even without the racial bonuses from the logistics suits (barring to some extent the repair tool) then what method is there for defining a substantive mechanic for the support role? If Assaults could damp almost as well as scouts but with better dps and more tank, why run scout? If Commandos could move almost as fast as Assaults but make their racial light weapons better in each case then why run Assault? If Assaults, Scouts, and Commandos can run equipment such that it means the majority of their support needs are fulfilled without a logistics frame currently/actively on the field (swap 'n' drop does not count) then why run one? Just to be clear I am not trying to be rhetorical here, if there is an aspect of this I am overlooking please illuminate *[sic] character limit* See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5388	Posted - 2014.09.30 20:37:00 - [638] - Quote Thanks for the clarification, Cross. Last but not least, the +25% non-Logi EQ tax is steep. From a Scout's POV, this change will make it very difficult to fit decent EQ alongside cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will impact low-level Scouts especially hard. I'd urge caution on this point. Direct buffs to the Logi I can get definitely get behind, but I don't know that it's necessary, appropriate or safe to kick everyone else in the balls. Doing so could have unintended consequences. My two cents. o7 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2980	Posted - 2014.09.30 21:08:00 - [639] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Thanks for the clarification, Cross. Last but not least, the +25% non-Logi EQ tax is steep. From a Scout's POV, this change will make it very difficult to fit decent EQ alongside cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will impact low-level Scouts especially hard. I'd urge caution on this point. Direct buffs to the Logi I can get definitely get behind, but I don't know that it's necessary, appropriate or safe to kick other classes in the balls. Frames are closer than ever to balance, and an indirect nerf on this scale could have unintended consequences. My two cents. o7 The table is improperly labeled (my fault), the +25% change is only applied to links, rep tool, hives, and active scanners. All other equipment types remain unchanged in their fittings values <-- Bold added to try and clear up the misconception my labeling fail has created within this thread. With that clarified does your stance on how this effects scouts/other roles alter? Because those four pieces of equipment are (in my view) pretty definitively support items (not more general case items like the RE). Also the step up in costs is a shift which should put proposed ADV at roughly current PRO fittings levels, does that meta step have a large enough impact when applied to those four pieces of support equipment to qualify as kicking other roles in the balls? (As per usual, these are actual not rhetorical questions, I have this up for feedback so people can present new data to be included o7) See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 855	Posted - 2014.09.30 21:09:00 - [640] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Thanks for the clarification, Cross. Last but not least, the +25% non-Logi EQ tax is steep. From a Scout's POV, this change will make it very difficult to fit decent EQ alongside cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will impact low-level Scouts especially hard. I'd urge caution on this point. Direct buffs to the Logi I can get definitely get behind, but I don't know that it's necessary, appropriate or safe to kick other classes in the balls. Frames are closer than ever to balance, and an indirect nerf on this scale could have unintended consequences. My two cents. o7 This is pretty much exactly what I was failing to explain properly. I want equipment to be better in a logi's hands, and inferior in anothers, but I don't want the equipment to be useless to the point of not being able to fit anything. There are plenty of times that I will be carrying the ammo, links, and reps, but a squadmate will have the scanner on an Assault or Scout suit. With this proposal, that Assault or Scout would maybe be able to carry a basic scanner. Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2982	Posted - 2014.09.30 21:35:00 - [641] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thanks for the clarification, Cross. Last but not least, the +25% non-Logi EQ tax is steep. From a Scout's POV, this change will make it very difficult to fit decent EQ alongside cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will impact low-level Scouts especially hard. I'd urge caution on this point. Direct buffs to the Logi I can get definitely get behind, but I don't know that it's necessary, appropriate or safe to kick other classes in the balls. Frames are closer than ever to balance, and an indirect nerf on this scale could have unintended consequences. My two cents. o7 This is pretty much exactly what I was failing to explain properly. I want equipment to be better in a logi's hands, and inferior in anothers, but I don't want the equipment to be useless to the point of not being able to fit anything. There are plenty of times that I will be carrying the ammo, links, and reps, but a squadmate will have the scanner on an Assault or Scout suit. With this proposal, that Assault or Scout would maybe be able to carry a basic scanner. My question remains the same however, if under the current status of the game those support needs can be readily met without the presence of a logistics fame in squad what incentives can make said frame of adequate value to field? Assuming 6 equipment slots in a squad that covers most needs/configurations even discounting depot swap, and while the concept of "just buff the logi use of the gear" is solid in theory there is a certain level of how that needs to be crack for that to be a viable path. How does one buff the active scanner above current levels to make the various types of it worth fielding without also breaking the scout role? How does one buff uplinks without magnifying their frequently spammed status without also taking steps to make them harder to use? (the Amarr buff not applying if the merc is currently dead or in another suit also renders that racial buff a frequent non-factor but changing it to be persistent after death/swap would allow for a lot of swap-spam without actual use of the frame during game play). Repair Tool, currently the most effective and meaningful racially buffed logistics equipment suffers from inverse scaling (potential WP goes down as efficacy of gear goes up) but discounting that it is also capped on earnings so the buffed status only means hitting cooldown faster and a further buff would simply result in more unrewarded active time on the field. Stepping away from earnings entirely, even the repair tool as the strongest current logi use case is often seen as tactically superior on a scout frame despite the minmitar bonus (this statement is made from both feedback and my own observations in PC, FW, and pubs). Scouts and Assault are both, and even under the proposal will remain, more combat viable than a logistics frame, how then do alter reps so that a logi with reps is more worthwhile to field than a more combat viable frame with slightly weaker reps? Nanohives, possibly the best case IMO for an increased buff as opposed to a restriction as I think the repeated nerfs to them have been a bit heavy handed. That having been said there are a few major flaws to a logi based hive buff 1. Their bonus works the same as the Amarr, and if it did not there would be little/no incentive to stay in the CalLogi once those hives are down. 2. CCP has been unwilling to rebuff hives due to their metrics, and I do not know if those have changed enough for this to be something they would even consider. 3. In many use cases outside of repper hives, a hive is as likely to be destroyed as fully consumed, even so many logi (if they do not spam) have hives remaining on their suit when they are killed. In the case of repper hives they are already quite potent at present. In both cases I am at a loss for how to buff their function/value in a way that is potent enough to warrant it as a role defining mod while not being brokenly OP. In each case I am completely open to options and alternatives but the question at present devolves to this; If logistics frames are going to be combat weaker than Heavies, Commandos, Scouts and Assaults, how much of a limitation of the other classes ability to self support is required/balanced to allow for a meaningful and competitive role? In many cases logi (when fully support fit) need their counterparts in the other roles or they are not going to survive long, is it over the top for the reciprocal of 'other roles will need logi or not be supported very well' over the top/unfair? 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5391	Posted - 2014.09.30 22:23:00 - [642] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thanks for the clarification, Cross. Last but not least, the +25% non-Logi EQ tax is steep. From a Scout's POV, this change will make it very difficult to fit decent EQ alongside cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will impact low-level Scouts especially hard. I'd urge caution on this point. Direct buffs to the Logi I can get definitely get behind, but I don't know that it's necessary, appropriate or safe to kick other classes in the balls. Frames are closer than ever to balance, and an indirect nerf on this scale could have unintended consequences. My two cents. o7 The table is improperly labeled (my fault), the +25% change is only applied to links, rep tool, hives, and active scanners. All other equipment types remain unchanged in their fittings values <-- Bold added to try and clear up the misconception my labeling fail has created within this thread. With that clarified does your stance on how this effects scouts/other roles alter? Because those four pieces of equipment are (in my view) pretty definitively support items (not more general case items like the RE). Also the step up in costs is a shift which should put proposed ADV at roughly current PRO fittings levels, does that meta step have a large enough impact when applied to those four pieces of support equipment to qualify as kicking other roles in the balls? (As per usual, these are actual not rhetorical questions, I have this up for feedback so people can present new data to be included o7) I can't speak for any other frames, so I'll restrict my response to Scoutly functions ... Hives - Common to sniper, counter sniper, AV loadouts. Uplinks - Common to rush, infiltration, exfiltration loadouts. Scanners - Common to reconnaissance loadouts. The loadouts above perform battlefield functions physically and functionally removed from those of embedded logistics; I agree that they're using the same EQ that Logis use, but they're using for different reasons and purposes. For example ... When FC says "I need an Uplink behind Echo", a Scout is dispatched as he has best odds of delivering that Uplink. When FC says "Push Echo", Slayers and Slayer Support come in on that Uplink and push the objective; once a foothold is established Slayer Support reinforces the position with his own Uplinks. In this scenario, I see two units using the same equipment, but I do not see overlapping roles or functions. I see squad play; I do not see Scout Logis. On Scout Logi: Boost PG/CPU requirements of rep tools; give Logis an innate PG/CPU discount. Solves Scout Logi problem; does not create other problems. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3329	Posted - 2014.09.30 22:53:00 - [643] - Quote breaks my commando suits where my gear is so PG/CPU tight my options are needle or rep tool.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2983	Posted - 2014.09.30 23:00:00 - [644] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: breaks my commando suits where my gear is so PG/CPU tight my options are needle or rep tool. Which Rep tool (it will not effect the needle fit whatsoever) and how integral to your role would you say that rep tool is? I am not contenting this will have a net impact of zero on current fittings. It will obviously have a net impact on current fittings and that impact will obviously be a constraining one, but for example moving from a Six Kin Triage Repair Tool to a BDR-8 Triage Repair Tool did not strike me as role breaking for a role which is not primarily support focused. Am a wrong? Is that 8/HPs enough of a gulf as to be role breaking? (If so please elaborate as to why ) See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3329	Posted - 2014.09.30 23:05:00 - [645] - Quote Very basic. PG/cpu is too tight for more than STD/MLT I tend to opt for repping people while my armor rep modules get to work. Nine times out of ten the logis aren't repping.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2984	Posted - 2014.09.30 23:30:00 - [646] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thanks for the clarification, Cross. Last but not least, the +25% non-Logi EQ tax is steep. From a Scout's POV, this change will make it very difficult to fit decent EQ alongside cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will impact low-level Scouts especially hard. I'd urge caution on this point. Direct buffs to the Logi I can get definitely get behind, but I don't know that it's necessary, appropriate or safe to kick other classes in the balls. Frames are closer than ever to balance, and an indirect nerf on this scale could have unintended consequences. My two cents. o7 The table is improperly labeled (my fault), the +25% change is only applied to links, rep tool, hives, and active scanners. All other equipment types remain unchanged in their fittings values <-- Bold added to try and clear up the misconception my labeling fail has created within this thread. With that clarified does your stance on how this effects scouts/other roles alter? Because those four pieces of equipment are (in my view) pretty definitively support items (not more general case items like the RE). Also the step up in costs is a shift which should put proposed ADV at roughly current PRO fittings levels, does that meta step have a large enough impact when applied to those four pieces of support equipment to qualify as kicking other roles in the balls? (As per usual, these are actual not rhetorical questions, I have this up for feedback so people can present new data to be included o7) I can't speak for any other frames, so I'll restrict my response to Scoutly functions ... Hives - Common to sniper, counter sniper, AV loadouts. Uplinks - Common to rush, infiltration, exfiltration loadouts. Scanners - Common to reconnaissance loadouts. Valid uses and I am in no way trying to prevent them from existing, the question in large part however is a matter of degree (which is the aspect the proposal seeks to address). Examples, as per your above: Hives - Transition from Ishkone to K-2, net loss 48 clusters (down to 96 from 144) Uplinks - Transition from Viziam Flux to N-11/A Flux, net loss 5 spawns and a 29.30% longer spawn rate (at 8% base) than the Viziams -21.30% (all effecting the 15 sec base) that's a net shift of ~4.4 sec I believe, no? Scanners - Transition from Duvolle Quantum to A-45 Quantum, Cooldown improved by 10 sec, Target Visibility down by 5.00 sec, Scan precision 8 dB negative shift. Are those performance gaps sever enough to destroy their use in Scoutly functions? Adipem Nothi wrote: The loadouts above perform battlefield functions physically and functionally removed from those of embedded logistics; I agree that they're using the same EQ that Logis use, but they're using it differently. For example ... When FC says "I need an Uplink behind Echo", a Scout is dispatched as he has best odds of delivering that Uplink. When FC says "Push Echo", Slayers and Slayer Support come in on that Uplink and push the objective; Slayer Support reinforces friendly foothold with his own Uplinks. In this scenario, I see two units using the same equipment, but I do not see overlapping roles or functions. I see squad play; I do not see Scout Logis. I concur that the presence of such is non-problematic and wish to firmly reiterate that I am not seeking to eliminate any such, I was off the view however that a single meta step down grade in gear quality (or upgrade in cost) would not be so burdensome as break those roles, while it would conversely allow the specialized logi some way to stand out a bit more. If this degree of change is truly destructive to the role please elaborate as to how and why so that a more workable solution can be reached. o7 continued in pt 2 See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2984	Posted - 2014.09.30 23:33:00 - [647] - Quote pt 2 Adipem Nothi wrote: On Scout Logi: Why not mimic the cloak? Make rep tools and/or needles very resource intensive; give Logis an innate PG/CPU discount. Breaks the Scout Logi; doesn't break anything else. What do you think? Currently racial logistics paradigms as defined by CCP are; Cal - Hives Amarr - Links Gal - Scans Min - Reps Now, while a case can be made for not doing things this way, indeed I made such a case prior to this method being adopted, I cannot guarantee how willing CCP would be do to a ground up overhaul on the nature of racial logistics bonuses and as such have been trying to 'color within the lines' to a great degree with my proposal. Leaving that aside for the moment to address the idea directly here is what I see as a long time support player. Pros Strong link to rep/revive for all logi, and thus strong role definition. Access to reps for all logi, which would be a net upgrade for 3/4 racial types as compared to current (general comment, as not all players in each race would want to adopt the new playstyle) Uniqueness of function - key to defining any role Hurdles or drawbacks Injectors have little room for an actual buff (we already have 100% injectors for sale) leaving only a discount on fittings. They are currently one of the 'lighter' bits of equipment to fit thus the net effect would be fewer non-logi suits running needles, in a meta where logi mortality is already their gravest concern. Requires new racial buffs across the boards. - I'm not strictly opposed to this by any means, but it would require a substantial enough change that none of the three community derived proposals in the spreadsheet are workable. Role Bonus - If the role bonus is changed from the current -25% to all equipment to a higher reduction applied only to repair tool/injector even with increased cost on those items that is likely to be a net nerf to overall logi fittings as the net savings would have to be high enough to counter balance the now unmodified cost of any other equipment being run. Further it would eliminate or cripple use of most non-medic centric logi (or even 'off brand' medic centric logi like needle + rep hive Cals). Now all of that being said this idea, focusing on giving all Logi reps as a core element and then giving them non-equipment centric bonuses as the racial, has merit and I'm more than happy to explore it, but it does open the door much wider to combat capable logi, and unlike the proposed method does not include built in mechanics to stop pure slayer builds run on logistics frames (which is not to say there may not be ideas for how to do that in this context, simply that I haven't come up with one during the time it took to type up this reply ) Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2984	Posted - 2014.09.30 23:42:00 - [648] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Very basic. PG/cpu is too tight for more than STD/MLT I tend to opt for repping people while my armor rep modules get to work. Nine times out of ten the logis aren't repping. Current numbers MLT - 22 CPU 5 PG STD - 15 CPU 5 PG Numbers under +25% proposal MLT - 28 CPU 6 PG STD - 20 CPU 6 PG So if you can fit the MLT then you could fit the STD under the proposal (unless your PG is 100% used up already). This being the case, considering your tight fittings, would you say that this 5 CPU 1 PG increase in cost on the STD Tool is role breaking for your Commando? Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars POD-SQUAD 168	Posted - 2014.09.30 23:53:00 - [649] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: [quote=Adipem Nothi]Thanks for the clarification, Cross. Last but not least, the +25% non-Logi EQ tax is steep. From a Scout's POV, this change will make it very difficult to fit decent EQ alongside cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will impact low-level Scouts especially hard. I'd urge caution on this point. Direct buffs to the Logi I can get definitely get behind, but I don't know that it's necessary, appropriate or safe to kick other classes in the balls. Frames are closer than ever to balance, and an indirect nerf on this scale could have unintended consequences. My two cents. o7 The table is improperly labeled (my fault), the +25% change is only applied to links, rep tool, hives, and active scanners. All other equipment types remain unchanged in their fittings values <-- Bold added to try and clear up the misconception my labeling fail has created within this thread. With that clarified does your stance on how this effects scouts/other roles alter? Because those four pieces of equipment are (in my view) pretty definitively support items (not more general case items like the RE). Also the step up in costs is a shift which should put proposed ADV at roughly current PRO fittings levels, does that meta step have a large enough impact when applied to those four pieces of support equipment to qualify as kicking other roles in the balls? (As per usual, these are actual not rhetorical questions, I have this up for feedback so people can present new data to be included o7) I can't speak for any other frames, so I'll restrict my response to Scoutly functions ... Hives - Common to sniper, counter sniper, AV loadouts. Uplinks - Common to rush, infiltration, exfiltration loadouts. Scanners - Common to reconnaissance loadouts. The loadouts above perform battlefield functions physically and functionally removed from those of embedded logistics; I agree that they're using the same EQ that Logis use, but they're using it differently. For example ... When FC says "I need an Uplink behind Echo", a Scout is dispatched as he has best odds of delivering that Uplink. When FC says "Push Echo", Slayers and Slayer Support come in on that Uplink and push the objective; Slayer Support reinforces friendly foothold with his own Uplinks. In this scenario, I see two units using the same equipment, but I do not see overlapping roles or functions. I see squad play; I do not see Scout Logis. quote above^ I agree with these statements about scouts and assaults with uplinks and nanohives looking like they are performing different roles to a logi but using the same equipment for a different purpose. To buff logi nanohives you could: make the logi's get a skill bonus towards non repping hives which increases the range of the hives to roughly 30m. However add the disadvantage where the further allies are from the nanohives (the centre of radius of effect), the larger they will be penalized by having less ammo restored. Add the additional effects where the further allies are from the nanohive the less the nanohive will be drained and the relationship between clusters of nanites lost per ammo round given to allies will change in proportion to distance. more distance = less clusters of nanites lost per ammo round given. this will mean that players will want to stay at the edge of the nanohive radius to get max volume of benefit over a defined period of time with smallest loss of nanite clusters. that method of thinking will briefly change during battle sometimes to needing to be closer to nanohive to keep up with changing ammunition demands over a defined period of time when the enemy is attacking with many enemy clones at once. then allies will likely change back to original behavior when enemy is not attacking in large numbers. this will allow logis to have a larger area of effect than other scouts or assaults using nanohives.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3191	Posted - 2014.10.01 00:01:00 - [650] - Quote I think the question that needs to be asked here is: "Should Non-Logistics suits be able to fit Proto equipment without sacrificing anything else?" Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2984	Posted - 2014.10.01 00:06:00 - [651] - Quote WeapondigitX V7 wrote: To buff logi nanohives you could: make the logi's get a skill bonus towards non repping hives which increases the range of the hives to roughly 30m. However add the disadvantage where the further allies are from the nanohives (the centre of radius of effect), the larger they will be penalized by having less ammo restored. Add the additional effects where the further allies are from the nanohive the less the nanohive will be drained and the relationship between clusters of nanites lost per ammo round given to allies will change in proportion to distance. more distance = less clusters of nanites lost per ammo round given. this will mean that players will want to stay at the edge of the nanohive radius to get max volume of benefit over a defined period of time with smallest loss of nanite clusters. that method of thinking will briefly change during battle sometimes to needing to be closer to nanohive to keep up with changing ammunition demands over a defined period of time when the enemy is attacking with many enemy clones at once. then allies will likely change back to original behavior when enemy is not attacking in large numbers. this will allow logis to have a larger area of effect than other scouts or assaults using nanohives. This is very dynamic, and (though I hate how often I end up saying this ) it sounds like a method worth considering for Legion but AFAIK would require recoding the behavior of the nanohives (i.e. client / patch level alteration) rather than changing the values of currently existing behavior (i.e. server / hotfix level alteration, which is where we currently sit development wise). I know how hard and even frustrating it can be to simultaneously think outside the box for innovation and side the box for possible function but that is the context we find ourselves in when seeking role balance currently within Dust 514. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2984	Posted - 2014.10.01 00:07:00 - [652] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I think the question that needs to be asked here is: "Should Non-Logistics suits be able to fit Proto equipment without sacrificing anything else?" Agreed. If answered "no" the conclusion is rather straight forward. If answered "yes" the follow up question becomes "what mechanical metric should be used to define the support/logistics role if not equipment?" 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5392	Posted - 2014.10.01 00:44:00 - [653] - Quote @ Cross / Pokey I'm willing to bet that if you check the numbers, you'll find that proto Scouts aren't typically running proto equipment. In the cases where they are, they are likely running a single-purpose fit and making big sacrifices elsewhere to do so (e.g. my Uplink runner has no primary weapon and no grenade). I'm level 5 in Hives, Uplinks, Remotes, Active Scanners. I can count on two hands the number of times I've used proto hives or remotes. And I don't plan to. They're too expensive and too tough to fit. It seems much more likely to me we're talking about downgrading from ADV EQ to STD and in the case of low-level Scouts, STD EQ to an empty slot. Edit: As far as Active Scanners go, PRO are the only ones worth using; if I couldn't fit a prototype scanner, I very likely wouldn't run my forward recon fit. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2987	Posted - 2014.10.01 00:52:00 - [654] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Cross / Pokey I'm willing to bet that if you check the numbers, you'll find that proto Scouts aren't typically running proto equipment. In the cases where they are, they are likely running a single-purpose fit and making big sacrifices elsewhere to do so (e.g. my Uplink runner has no primary weapon and no grenade). I'm level 5 in Hives, Uplinks, Remotes, Active Scanners. I can count on two hands the number of times I've used proto hives or remotes. And I don't plan to. They're too expensive and too tough to fit. It seems much more likely to me we're talking about downgrading from ADV EQ to STD and in the case of low-level Scouts, STD EQ to an empty slot. Edit: As far as Active Scanners go, PRO are the only ones worth using; if I couldn't fit a prototype scanner, I very likely wouldn't run my forward recon fit. Hummm... stares at drawing board kicks it a few times to shake inspiration loose There's got to be an angle to approach this from... EDIT: What about a tiered approach to that upscale? If instead of a blanket increase to 'the big 4' at all levels it was something like STD - 10% ADV - 15% PRO - 25% or STD - 5% ADV - 10% PRO - 20% The above numbers are illustrative as much as anything as I haven't plugged them in at all, but how tight are these fittings, would a method such as the above listed provide more viable wiggle room? See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3192	Posted - 2014.10.01 00:58:00 - [655] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Cross / Pokey I'm willing to bet that if you check the numbers, you'll find that proto Scouts aren't typically running proto equipment. In the cases where they are, they are likely running a single-purpose fit and making big sacrifices elsewhere to do so (e.g. my Uplink runner has no primary weapon and no grenade). I'm level 5 in Hives, Uplinks, Remotes, Active Scanners. I can count on two hands the number of times I've used proto hives or remotes. And I don't plan to. They're too expensive and too tough to fit. For the vast majority of Scoutly fits and functions, it seems more likely to me we're talking about a downgrade from ADV EQ to STD and in the case of low-level Scouts, STD EQ to an empty slot. Edit: As far as Active Scanners go, PRO are the only ones worth using when running forward recon; if I couldn't fit a prototype scanner, I very likely wouldn't run my forward recon fit. I actually have not done any recent scout fits, I was simply asking the question at hand in clear terms Now when you say that, are you running a cloak at the same time? Or two equipment? And in that case, what grade of cloak? Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5392	Posted - 2014.10.01 01:13:00 - [656] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Cross / Pokey I'm willing to bet that if you check the numbers, you'll find that proto Scouts aren't typically running proto equipment. In the cases where they are, they are likely running a single-purpose fit and making big sacrifices elsewhere to do so (e.g. my Uplink runner has no primary weapon and no grenade). I'm level 5 in Hives, Uplinks, Remotes, Active Scanners. I can count on two hands the number of times I've used proto hives or remotes. And I don't plan to. They're too expensive and too tough to fit. For the vast majority of Scoutly fits and functions, it seems more likely to me we're talking about a downgrade from ADV EQ to STD and in the case of low-level Scouts, STD EQ to an empty slot. Edit: As far as Active Scanners go, PRO are the only ones worth using when running forward recon; if I couldn't fit a prototype scanner, I very likely wouldn't run my forward recon fit. I actually have not done any recent scout fits, I was simply asking the question at hand in clear terms Now when you say that, are you running a cloak at the same time? Or two equipment? And in that case, what grade of cloak? I have two Uplink fits. The first is used start-of-match; I rush in, toss an uplink or two along the way, hack a point, toss another uplink or two then suicide. It has 2 pro uplinks, 3 kincats, 1 card reg, 1 shield, 1 empty high, pro knives, no primary and no grenade and exactly 1 PG to spare. The second is used for infiltration (get uplink behind enemy lines) and exfiltration (get bluedots out of spawn trap). It has two damps, two kincats, 2 shields, pro uplink, adv cloak, adv combat rifle, pro knives, no grenade and exactly 1 CPU to spare. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3192	Posted - 2014.10.01 01:54:00 - [657] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Cross / Pokey I'm willing to bet that if you check the numbers, you'll find that proto Scouts aren't typically running proto equipment. In the cases where they are, they are likely running a single-purpose fit and making big sacrifices elsewhere to do so (e.g. my Uplink runner has no primary weapon and no grenade). I'm level 5 in Hives, Uplinks, Remotes, Active Scanners. I can count on two hands the number of times I've used proto hives or remotes. And I don't plan to. They're too expensive and too tough to fit. For the vast majority of Scoutly fits and functions, it seems more likely to me we're talking about a downgrade from ADV EQ to STD and in the case of low-level Scouts, STD EQ to an empty slot. Edit: As far as Active Scanners go, PRO are the only ones worth using when running forward recon; if I couldn't fit a prototype scanner, I very likely wouldn't run my forward recon fit. I actually have not done any recent scout fits, I was simply asking the question at hand in clear terms Now when you say that, are you running a cloak at the same time? Or two equipment? And in that case, what grade of cloak? I have two Uplink fits. The first is used start-of-match; I rush in, toss an uplink or two along the way, hack a point, toss another uplink or two then suicide. It has 2 pro uplinks, 3 kincats, 1 card reg, 1 shield, 1 empty high, pro knives, no primary and no grenade and exactly 1 PG to spare. The second is used for infiltration (get uplink behind enemy lines) and exfiltration (get bluedots out of spawn trap). It has two damps, two kincats, 2 shields, pro uplink, adv cloak, adv combat rifle, pro knives, no grenade and exactly 1 CPU to spare. Are all your fitting/optimizations maxed? Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5393	Posted - 2014.10.01 02:16:00 - [658] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Cross / Pokey I'm willing to bet that if you check the numbers, you'll find that proto Scouts aren't typically running proto equipment. In the cases where they are, they are likely running a single-purpose fit and making big sacrifices elsewhere to do so (e.g. my Uplink runner has no primary weapon and no grenade). I'm level 5 in Hives, Uplinks, Remotes, Active Scanners. I can count on two hands the number of times I've used proto hives or remotes. And I don't plan to. They're too expensive and too tough to fit. For the vast majority of Scoutly fits and functions, it seems more likely to me we're talking about a downgrade from ADV EQ to STD and in the case of low-level Scouts, STD EQ to an empty slot. Edit: As far as Active Scanners go, PRO are the only ones worth using when running forward recon; if I couldn't fit a prototype scanner, I very likely wouldn't run my forward recon fit. I actually have not done any recent scout fits, I was simply asking the question at hand in clear terms Now when you say that, are you running a cloak at the same time? Or two equipment? And in that case, what grade of cloak? I have two Uplink fits. The first is used start-of-match; I rush in, toss an uplink or two along the way, hack a point, toss another uplink or two then suicide. It has 2 pro uplinks, 3 kincats, 1 card reg, 1 shield, 1 empty high, pro knives, no primary and no grenade and exactly 1 PG to spare. The second is used for infiltration (get uplink behind enemy lines) and exfiltration (get bluedots out of spawn trap). It has two damps, two kincats, 2 shields, pro uplink, adv cloak, adv combat rifle, pro knives, no grenade and exactly 1 CPU to spare. Are all your fitting/optimizations maxed? Nope. Pushing 60M SP and still room to grow :-) But we're way off course, Pokey. You guys want to make Logis more useful. I can understand that. Can we not find a way to do that without shafting other EQ users? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3192	Posted - 2014.10.01 02:23:00 - [659] - Quote I think in general the concept is to make Logi's more valuable in general by making them more capable of fitting high end equipment over other suits. The devil is course in the details, so tweaking the numbers is really the nitty gritty part of it. I'm curious to see if other suits suffer with equipment as much as the scouts seem to. The increase to the reduction bonus for the Logi is a no brainer for me. As for increasing the cost of said equipment, it comes down to how much or at all. I think in general the Uplinks are probably the most unforgiving of all equipment, so that one needs to be looked at most closely. Do you typically run equipment other than Uplinks and Cloaks on your scout? I'm curious to know if its an equipment cost issue, of if its just an uplink cost issue. is lazy and on his phone, thus not wanting to deal with protofits atm Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5393	Posted - 2014.10.01 03:06:00 - [660] - Quote Yes, proto uplinks are indeed tough to fit. No, I typically do not run Uplinks. The previously described fits perform niche functions; they are not what I'd consider to be "general use" fits. The EQ on my "general use" fits vary by race and function ... AM, CA Scout - Typically Ranged MN, GA Scout - Typically CQC Ranged fits typically employ advanced cloak, pro active scanner or adv hives. CQC fits typically employ advanced cloak, basic remotes or adv hives. Proto Hives and REs are too tough to fit for general use. Can't speak for needles or reppers (I've never used them). For what its worth, I'm concerned about how this proposal would impact low-level Scouts. Recently skilled 1-5 both the MN Scout and the AM Scout. For levels 1-3, I ran mainly BSC remotes, compact hives or an A-19 active scanner. All fittings were down to the wire. At level 4, I was finally able to fit cloak. On Advanced Minmatar, cloak was all I could fit. On Advanced Amarr, I could fit it alongside a basic hive or remote. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 420	Posted - 2014.10.01 03:31:00 - [661] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: i didn't notice the spreadsheet. just looked it over. equipment seems ok but the cost reduction on the repair tool isn't enough in my opinion. its the single most expensive piece of equipment a logi can carry yet using it leaves you open do death. i think 40% off or bringing the cost in line with other active equipment would mean more players using the best over the worst to keep costs down That brings up a very good point, and one which I must sheepishly admit I overlooked in the spreadsheet, that being the cost comparison between pieces of equipment. Heretofore I have not touched the comparative costs of equipment but would like to open the floor for that now. I wish to invite everyone to comment on the relative cost and balance within the equipment line, which mods cost too much PG or CPU, which cost too little, where are the perceived gaps between value and function? This is good information to include, mercs I'd like your input. Cheers, Cross Normalizing the prices of like tiered equipment is a good idea. After that, raising or lowering the costs to appropriate levels can be accomplished. Not a fully baked idea, but IF the costs were high enough, a BOGO program could be implemented for Logis where if one piece of (non-EWAR) eq was purchased, two would be installed on the suit. (Maybe do a similar bonus for Assaults with light weapons, or for Scouts with cloaks?) This would not prevent other roles from running eq (as it would have no impact on fitting capabilities), but would add financial incentives for focusing more on the default role - ie Logis as support/medics rather than slayers. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 6095	Posted - 2014.10.01 11:49:00 - [662] - Quote One thing that seriously needs fixing is the awful, clunky repair tool animations and lock on. It would also be nice to be able to use L1 and R1 to lock and unlock different targets. Maybe speeding the animation up would fix it. Another thing that could be considered is getting kill assists when repairing other people/vehicles. Ok.........now say that in quif.
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 859	Posted - 2014.10.01 14:21:00 - [663] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: My question remains the same however, if under the current status of the game those support needs can be readily met without the presence of a logistics fame in squad what incentives can make said frame of adequate value to field? Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side. Even a full squad with basic and advanced equipment wouldn't be as effective as a squad with a single Logi. This concept works in theory. What about when a Commando, a suit made for running alone, can only carry basic or advanced equipment, even on a Proto suit. I can barely fit Proto rep hives on my Min Commando currently, while using LP store Specialist weapons, and a mix of Proto and Adv modules. With this new concept of equipment, I would just need to spawn my Logi suit first, drop some goodies, and then switch to my Commando with inferior equipment to defend an objective. Not a huge deal, but aren't we trying to get away from that playstyle? Drop and swap suits playstyle? Or should that be a thing, since I am specced into both, should I not be able to reap the benefits of both? How about the Scout uplink runner that plays a key tactical role as well? If we are making equipment even worse, except in a Logi's hands, shouldn't each Logi then get a boost to all equipment? What is the point of running Logi if one or more of your equipment is just as garbage as a non-logi squadmates? That brings us back around to the whole, "a blanket buff to all equipment for Logis just homogenizes the role too much" argument that I agree with. If we give a blanket buff, then how do we differentiate between the races again? I agree with the logic of the equipment changes in theory, I just am failing to see how they will work in practice... Perhaps I need more coffee. Mmmm... Coffee.... Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5400	Posted - 2014.10.01 14:41:00 - [664] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side. To take this thought one step further ... what might be accomplished by a squad of six Logis each with 1000+ HP, a proto fine rifle, uber scans, and superior equipment? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 860	Posted - 2014.10.01 15:18:00 - [665] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side. To take this thought one step further ... what might be accomplished by a squad of six Logis each with 1000+ HP, a proto fine rifle, and vastly superior equipment? To play devil's advocate, would that be any worse than the current full squads of Assault/Logi Scouts we have today? Your point brings up the very reason I am tentative at giving Logis much of an eHP buff, and instead would rather them be self repping machines. Point any high alpha weapon at a Logi, +50, but If that Logi makes it to cover, or their teammates jump into the fray, that Logi could be back to form fairly quickly. Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5403	Posted - 2014.10.01 15:42:00 - [666] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side. To take this thought one step further ... what might be accomplished by a squad of six Logis each with 1000+ HP, a proto fine rifle, and vastly superior equipment? To play devil's advocate, would that be any worse than the current full squads of Assault/Logi Scouts we have today? Your point brings up the very reason I am tentative at giving Logis much of an eHP buff, and instead would rather them be self repping machines. Point any high alpha weapon at a Logi, +50, but If that Logi makes it to cover, or their teammates jump into the fray, that Logi could be back to form fairly quickly. If Rattati pulled the numbers, I'm confident he'd find that "Logi Scouts" are a rarity; very few Scouts run needles and fewer still run rep tools. As for Assault Scouts, I believe that their popularity has been in decline in the wake of Assaults being made better ass-kickers. In my opinion, a better question is ... If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults? PS: I like your corp name by the way. A great book :-) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3195	Posted - 2014.10.01 15:48:00 - [667] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: In my opinion, a better question is ... If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults? PS: I like your corp name, by the way. A great book :-) Do you feel that would happen because of the improvement of the Logi's bonus? Or because of the increase in resource cost for equipment? Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 861	Posted - 2014.10.01 16:02:00 - [668] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: In my opinion, a better question is ... If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults? PS: I like your corp name, by the way. A great book :-) Do you feel that would happen because of the improvement of the Logi's bonus? Or because of the increase in resource cost for equipment? I think the concern here is if Logis get a boost to eHP, as well as a better fitting bonus, that leaves more room for tank and gank modules, as well as having the best equipment. This was the initial reason Logis were the go to suit for a bit. Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
Kalante Schiffer YOU GOT OWNED BY A CHRONIC FAPPER 764	Posted - 2014.10.01 16:03:00 - [669] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side. To take this thought one step further ... what might be accomplished by a squad of six Logis each with 1000+ HP, a proto fine rifle, and vastly superior equipment? To play devil's advocate, would that be any worse than the current full squads of Assault/Logi Scouts we have today? Your point brings up the very reason I am tentative at giving Logis much of an eHP buff, and instead would rather them be self repping machines. Point any high alpha weapon at a Logi, +50, but If that Logi makes it to cover, or their teammates jump into the fray, that Logi could be back to form fairly quickly. If Rattati pulled the numbers, I'm confident he'd find that "Logi Scouts" are a rarity; very few Scouts run needles and fewer still run rep tools. As for Assault Scouts, I believe that their popularity has been in decline in the wake of Assaults being made better ass-kickers. In my opinion, a better question is ... If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults? PS: I like your corp name by the way. A great book :-) lol assaults made better ass kickers, maybe at a low level but at a high level.. barely. Usually when i kill some one trying to be a wannabe assault slayer they switch back to heavy. Barely a few can wear an assault suit.
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 861	Posted - 2014.10.01 16:03:00 - [670] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: PS: I like your corp name by the way. A great book :-) Haha, yeah. You can't go to Detroit Public Schools and not be forced to read it. It still is a good book for sure. He has got a little preachy in his old age, but still a good writer. Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3195	Posted - 2014.10.01 16:10:00 - [671] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: In my opinion, a better question is ... If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults? PS: I like your corp name, by the way. A great book :-) Do you feel that would happen because of the improvement of the Logi's bonus? Or because of the increase in resource cost for equipment? I think the concern here is if Logis get a boost to eHP, as well as a better fitting bonus, that leaves more room for tank and gank modules, as well as having the best equipment. This was the initial reason Logis were the go to suit for a bit. I think for me personally what I'd like to see is the Logi suit having inferior resources compared to the Assault, but a really kickass equipment reduction bonuses so that they don't sacrifice much to put the equipment on, but even if they skip the equipment, they can't exceed the tank/gank of the Assault. Honestly base HP makes a difference yes, but since base HP is maintained through all tiers, the real measure of defense is going to be in what modules they can fit. So in terms of having similar base HP between Assault and Logi, I think that's fine. It's more a matter of how the resource balance lands and how that affects what they can fit on it. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5406	Posted - 2014.10.01 16:45:00 - [672] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: In my opinion, a better question is ... If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults? Do you feel that would happen because of the improvement of the Logi's bonus? Or because of the increase in resource cost for equipment? I see this proposal as having three parts: Part A involves direct buffs to Logi base statistics. Part B involves improvements to Logi gear-based bonuses. Part C involves changes to EQ which will impact all classes. I suspect that ... ... passing A or B would likely be fine; some risk of undercorrection. ... passing A and B would likely be fine; some risk of overcorrection. ... passing C would set into motion unknowns; risk of introducing new imbalance. ... passing A,B,C would likely be too much; high risk of Logi out-assaulting Assault. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3195	Posted - 2014.10.01 16:55:00 - [673] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I see this proposal as having three parts: Part A involves direct buffs to Logi base statistics. Part B involves improvements to Logi gear-based bonuses. Part C involves changes to EQ which will impact all classes. I suspect that ... ... passing A or B would likely be fine; some risk of undercorrection. ... passing A and B would likely be fine; some risk of overcorrection. ... passing C would set into motion unknowns; risk of introducing new imbalance. ... passing A,B,C would likely be too much; high risk of Logi out-assaulting Assault. Then go with A & B and see how it goes? Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2996	Posted - 2014.10.01 18:18:00 - [674] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Cross Atu wrote: My question remains the same however, if under the current status of the game those support needs can be readily met without the presence of a logistics fame in squad what incentives can make said frame of adequate value to field? Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side. Even a full squad with basic and advanced equipment wouldn't be as effective as a squad with a single Logi. This concept works in theory. What about when a Commando, a suit made for running alone, can only carry basic or advanced equipment, even on a Proto suit. I can barely fit Proto rep hives on my Min Commando currently, while using LP store Specialist weapons, and a mix of Proto and Adv modules. With this new concept of equipment, I would just need to spawn my Logi suit first, drop some goodies, and then switch to my Commando with inferior equipment to defend an objective. Not a huge deal, but aren't we trying to get away from that playstyle? Drop and swap suits playstyle? Or should that be a thing, since I am specced into both, should I not be able to reap the benefits of both? How about the Scout uplink runner that plays a key tactical role as well? Drop and swap would be diminished under the proposal due to the reduction in payload per deployed item (clusters in the case of nanohives). Being specced into more than one suit already does not grant the benefits of both suits simultaneously. The advantage there is being able to adapt to the situation, not having every tool for use all at once. I have proto sentential and proto min scout but that does not give my assault or logi more eHP nor faster hacking speed. Currently the only role that can more directly be filled by a quick swap to another suit is support logistics and that undercuts the idea of those actions being legitimately the focus for role. Everyone wants to be self-sufficient, if given the option for 2 Light Weapons which suit would not take it? They grant flexibility and more ability to run solo. If given the option for Sentinel eHP, who would not take it? they can take more punishment and run solo better. If given scout eWar potential or mobility, who would not take it? They can define the terms of their engagements and thus run solo more. When given more HP and fittings options, the Assaults certainly took it. It allows them to further hone their dps and survivability and thus run solo more. Even when people choose to run as a squad they want to be as self sufficient as possible, which is totally understandable, but where is the role for a support class in a world where ever other role sustains all their optimal needs (because running proto gear is totally a question of being optimal) by themselves? I have asked this question before and will reiterate it now; Does it damage the role of the commando not to have prototype repair hives at the current fitting costs? Does the role of the commando require that level of reps, and that they be provided without external support or it loses its specialist niche? Does the Thales sniper (be that in a Gal Sent, CalMannod, or Scout) need prototype resupply hives at the current fittings cost without any external team support? Would running advanced or paying more in CPU/PG damage his role? Does the infiltration uplink scout require prototype uplinks at the present fittings cost to do his job? Does that at most 4.4 sec difference in spawn time for his squad truly make him in-viable? I run a bit of everything but I do not claim to be an expert in everything by any means, why is why I ask these questions. If there is specific reason why other roles need to have proto equipment at the present costs, and need to have it not come from a logi but from themselves otherwise they lose their specialist role then please elaborate those reasons. Again, not rhetorical, I am actually asking these questions and honestly seeking answers. Why and in what cases is it needful to other specialist roles to have direct (i.e. non-logi) use of prototype support equipment at the present CPU/PG costs? Followup question, in those cases where it is needful, what value does a dedicated support specialist offer to that other role which that role cannot directly supply for themselves? continued in pt2 See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3338	Posted - 2014.10.01 18:39:00 - [675] - Quote Commando doesn't sufer not having proto gear. It suffers because you cannot fit prox mines or REs and have to use a needle or ep gun. Lack of optuons after solid module and weapon fit
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5413	Posted - 2014.10.01 18:46:00 - [676] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: ... If there is specific reason why other roles need to have proto equipment at the present costs, and need to have it not come from a logi but from themselves otherwise they lose their specialist role then please elaborate those reasons. Fit for slaying, the new-and-improved Logi will be nearly as good as the Assault at frontline asskicking. Give that Logi superior gear -- while subtracting from everyone else's -- and we likely tilt the scale in their favor. Factor in squad synergy, and we have a strong possibility that Nyain San will be running six of these at a time. I can think of no reason why they wouldn't: Similar tank. Similar gank. Superior gear. Superior squadplay. If we want a guaranteed and valuable, Logi-exclusive support function, why not simply make needles and reppers infeasible to run on other fits? In addition, of course, to the base stat and bonus improvements. Edit: I believe I've contributed my two cents and now run risk of repeating myself ... all on a subject that I know little about :-). I take my leave. Thank you again, Cross, for permitting my participation. o7 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2998	Posted - 2014.10.01 18:53:00 - [677] - Quote pt 2 Booby Tuesdays wrote: If we are making equipment even worse, except in a Logi's hands, shouldn't each Logi then get a boost to all equipment? What is the point of running Logi if one or more of your equipment is just as garbage as a non-logi squadmates? That brings us back around to the whole, "a blanket buff to all equipment for Logis just homogenizes the role too much" argument that I agree with. If we give a blanket buff, then how do we differentiate between the races again? I agree with the logic of the equipment changes in theory, I just am failing to see how they will work in practice... Perhaps I need more coffee. Mmmm... Coffee.... Making equipment prototype equipment a valuable premium (is this not what prototype gear is/was slated to be prior to the PC passive ISK faucet?) even without added skill buffs is part of the point. If anything below prototype is "garbage" then that is an issue that needs to be addressed in its own right. ADV RR, CR, ScR, FG, HMG, NK, Bolt Pistols, etc. kill people all the time during my matches if it is worthless (i.e. of insufficient added value to be worth fitting) to run a piece of equipment that is below prototype then equipment needs a statistical overhaul. But even if that were (or is) the case that would substantiate the notion that a logi running proto without racial buffs to enhance it further (just role buffs to enhance ability to fit it) would then have more of a defined specialist role when compared to the current baselines. So in my view it does not correlate to a racially homogenizing blanket buff to all equipment. However let us examine that notion, how would one effectively apply such a buff in a meaningful way? Even cutting and pasting every current racial buff on to every logi frame (a very heavy wide spectrum change) would not really attain substantially positive results. These buffs already exist and they do not drive players commonly use those support roles through an entire match. Would such a sweeping buff cause the skills be used more? Sure, because now the Gal who already fits an uplink would just have that uplink work a bit better, now the Amarr who has a repair tool would get a little more function out of it etc. So buff the effect of the racial bonuses, don't alter fittings right? Well that brings the question of how. Uplinks - Is it more common to have a proto uplink destroyed or to burn through all 25-25 of its spawns? And spawn in time is capped at 3 sec, so how would further buffing this racial work? Nanohives - Much like above, is it more common to have them destroyed or fully consumed? Consumption happens faster than uplinks especially if people are spamming nades/REs or using repper hives. We could increase the cluster bonus still further, but in a world where those who want them have proto hives which do essentially the same thing just for not quite as long (and don't need them at all if they die) is that extra helping of hives going to create a meaningful role/purpose on the field? Meaningful enough that people will ask for/seek out the use of that fit as they do with other non-support roles currently? Scanners - The scanning system is very absolute right now, you win or you lose there isn't really an in between. With that in mind we cannot further buff scan precision. We could buff range perhaps, or angle, but too much of those moves us back toward the 360 spin scans which were nefed out of existence. We could further buff duration, this would add some chance to earn more WP at least, but even if we buffed all of these there would still be higher precision 360 degree passive scans, so how often is this fit going to be specifically valuable or sought out compared to those passives? Repair Tool - Currently most viable, and ironically holds the greatest possible room for buffs. If buffed heavily this could reach the level where it can fully counter a single source of incoming fire (non-alpha of course) making it more like the reps in EVE. This is a notion I have presented on and off since closed beta as a possible alternative to the current system/troubles, but it has never gained much traction or even comment. In short, how does one make support roles better at using equipment to an extent where other players will want them on the field (i.e. they will have a meaningful role to fill) in the current game state while not making their use of equipment brokenly overpowered? (Again, actual questions, not rhetorical). 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3197	Posted - 2014.10.01 19:02:00 - [678] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Thank you again Cross, Pokey, Tuesday, others for permitting my participation. o7 I've always appreciated your input, mostly because you're capable of disagreeing without being an ass about it, which is gasp constructive criticism! A skill many lack but I wish more had. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2999	Posted - 2014.10.01 19:11:00 - [679] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: ... If there is specific reason why other roles need to have proto equipment at the present costs, and need to have it not come from a logi but from themselves otherwise they lose their specialist role then please elaborate those reasons. Fit for slaying, the new-and-improved Logi will be nearly as good as the Assault at frontline asskicking. Give that Logi superior gear -- while subtracting from everyone else's -- and we likely tilt the scale in their favor. Factor in squad synergy, and we have a strong possibility that Nyain San will be running six of these at a time. One of the key aspects of the proposal was trying to make sure "fit for slaying" in any comparable way to Assaults, Commandos et al was not one of the effects. "Fit for getting to cover in a hot zone" is more the aim, which requires more survivability than is currently present but put a Scrambler on the Amarr Assault and the Amarr Logi (with mirrored loadouts) and the Assault uses it better hands down, same story with the Commando. These changes should not, if done properly, make the logistics frames "an assault with a couple extra equipment slots" and avoiding that is part of the reason for having this conversation, making sure other roles are not infringed upon. Adipem Nothi wrote: I can think of no reason why they wouldn't: Similar tank. Similar gank. Superior gear. Superior squadplay. If we want a guaranteed and valuable, Logi-exclusive support function, why not simply make needles and reppers infeasible to run on other fits? In addition, of course, to the proposed base stat and bonus improvements. I really wish some of my other questions on this front had not gotten lost in the shuffle because I would very much like your feedback on whether prototype uplinks (as are used on your posted fits) are necessary for the infiltrator and exfiltrator roles you describe. I also remain curious about alternate racial bonuses, as would be needed in light of making logistics rep/revive centric as you suggest. As I posted when you raised this idea prior, I am not opposed to the notion, and in some ways quite like it, but there are some challenges to be overcome if it is to be made viable. Thus far (unless I have missed it) there haven't really been solutions/alternatives proposed to those challenges. I am not trying to be obtuse, it is simply that if the change I have cobbled together through feedback and study is problematic then I need to know very specifically how/why and may very well need others contributing their thoughts to come up with alternate solutions. Adipem Nothi wrote: -------------------- I believe I've contributed my two cents and now run risk of repeating myself ... on a subject that I admittedly know very little about :-). I take my leave and defer freely to the experts. Thank you again Cross, Pokey, Tuesday, others for permitting my participation. o7 I hope you swing back this way because, as stated above, there are specific questions I would very much like your input on. I further hope that my debating an idea is not misconstrued as being closed to the possibility of changing things (ultimately it is not my call anyway, I present the feedback and CCP decides) nor to the notion of alternatives. I simply enjoy both giving and receiving rigorous challenges to ideas in the hopes that the best option will be found. Regardless thank you for contributing and for doing so in a constructive manner. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2999	Posted - 2014.10.01 19:15:00 - [680] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side. To take this thought one step further ... what might be accomplished by a squad of six Logis each with 1000+ HP, a proto fine rifle, and vastly superior equipment? This is in part something that I am trying to avoid by normalizing the logistics suit CPU/PG at an average level lower than current standards. The details of how much is too much are things that I seek to hone in on through feedback in this thread. For while I am not completely incapable of math I am certainly not the most adept mathematician out there by any stretch of the imagination See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3002	Posted - 2014.10.01 19:29:00 - [681] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: In my opinion, a better question is ... If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults? PS: I like your corp name, by the way. A great book :-) Do you feel that would happen because of the improvement of the Logi's bonus? Or because of the increase in resource cost for equipment? I think the concern here is if Logis get a boost to eHP, as well as a better fitting bonus, that leaves more room for tank and gank modules, as well as having the best equipment. This was the initial reason Logis were the go to suit for a bit. I apologies for being a bit nit picky here (I kind of hate it when people do that on forums) but for the sake of clearlity this one needs pointed to. eHP is not the same as HP HP = Raw value of buffer tank eHP = *Effective* Hit Points, and depending on the use case things like mobility, eWar, etc can apply here. Things like HP regeneration and damage reduction certainly do apply here. The concern over total eHP and dps output is one of the key reasons for the suggested change in equipment fittings values along with the reduction to average logistics base fittings resources (stats on suit). While I freely admit the specific numbers may need tweaked (again, not the best math guy, hopping feedback here will help find the 'sweet spot' with the numbers) the goal is to give logi more eHP while keeping their total HP well shy of Assaults etc. The increase to HP that is suggested is aimed at being just enough to give the player time to sprint back into cover, because without that the regeneration is functionally meaningless. (These cases are assuming they aren't caught out in a wide open space or caught without any stamina, because in those cases they die). The better fitting bonus is also a part of the reason for the "big four" cost increase, if the four racially bound pieces of key support equipment cost more then, combined with the reduction to base CPU/PG stats, the increase role bonus nets a mild gain in fittings for most - but not all - support loadouts presuming those fits run full equipment. The net effect on 'slayer' oriented suits, those suits which do not run full equipment loadouts, is a reduction in total fittings available. Again if the numbers are weak somewhere it is my hope that feedback can help ferret that out and refine them so that they properly support the intent outlined above. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3002	Posted - 2014.10.01 19:48:00 - [682] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: In my opinion, a better question is ... If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults? Do you feel that would happen because of the improvement of the Logi's bonus? Or because of the increase in resource cost for equipment? I see this proposal as having three parts: Part A involves direct buffs to Logi base statistics. Part B involves improvements to Logi gear-based bonuses. Part C involves changes to EQ which will impact all classes. In my estimation ... ... passing A or B would likely be fine; some risk of undercorrection. ... passing A and B would likely be fine; some risk of overcorrection. ... passing C would set into motion unknowns; risk of introducing new imbalance. ... passing A,B,C would likely be too much; high risk of Logi out-assaulting Assault. There's alot of good in this proposal, but there are also many moving parts. Any reason why not to iterate? Okay so, clearly, I am still catching up on this thread and have only just now read this post. I am noting this because my prior posts will not have taken this breakdown into account, so grain of salt for those. Alright, on to the main event. My concern with the absence of "C" is that it may cause a net overbuff to the logistics, that being said if the feeling from players (especially those who spend more time in roles outside the support logi) is that we should push pause on "C" (the change to fittings cost of "the big four") then I am not opposed to tabling that aspect until we see how the other aspects play out. I was simply hesitant to do so because of the rife community concern over "slayer logi". The second aspect of "C" was to provide a partial address (along with other measures) to the frequent cries from the community for reduction of spam, particularly as it pertains to uplinks. Since uplinks are vital to the function of an entire race within the logistics line most proposals to limit their use are functionally crippling to a substantial sub-set of support logi. As such the notion was that making uplinks universally harder to fit, and thus deploy, would be a better solution than the many recurring proposals which take much harder line stances regarding limitations. The same is generally true for nanohives though to a lessor degree. The rep tool is already preeminent among logi buffs/uses at present so a "stealth buff" to it by scaling up costs on hives/links but not the repper seemed ill advised and the active scanner followed suit for more unified internal class balance / to deepen the specialist role of each race. To reiterate, I am not opposed to suspending this CPU/PG increase aspect until after the other changes are in game and we see where they fall, but I would still advocate this much more fully/actively than the majority of other "anti-spam" proposals that I have read thus far. A & B are pretty spot on assessments I would say, with a couple of touch ups. A is a net increase to base stats, the decrease to average base CPU/PG should not be overlooked. B while a buff is aimed at increased diversity of applicable skills (hopefully while avoiding homogenizing the races). I note these two things not because the quoted descriptions are inaccurate, but rather to clearly specificy the goals these changes are aimed at, since feedback and refinement are meant to be ongoing at this juncture. Thanks again for your participation. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3002	Posted - 2014.10.01 19:50:00 - [683] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Commando doesn't sufer not having proto gear. It suffers because you cannot fit prox mines or REs and have to use a needle or ep gun. Lack of optuons after solid module and weapon fit What are the fitting constraints (CPU or PG) in each case and by how much? Addressing that completely is likely biting off more than I can chew all at once but I would like to continue to educate myself more deeply. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3201	Posted - 2014.10.01 19:50:00 - [684] - Quote If you're concerned about an overbuff without C you could consider buffing the Logi bonus by what the effective buff would be had C happened, though that does cause issues with the items that would have been unaffected by C... Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3002	Posted - 2014.10.01 20:10:00 - [685] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: If you're concerned about an overbuff without C you could consider buffing the Logi bonus by what the effective buff would be had C happened, though that does cause issues with the items that would have been unaffected by C... And it is that last thing which is a problem, well the main one. When figuring this out the following aspects were considered Changes to base PG/CPU Net loss of PG/CPU when Level 5 skills are considered (every point of base also causes a loss of the amount gained through skills) Margin between "full support" (every slot filled) and "full slayer" (zero slots filled) logistics frames. As has been noted without requiring the equipment slots be filled for a viable fit there is very little which can be done to eliminate this gap completely, however reducing the base PG/CPU while increasing the bonus can narrow the margin. Current equipment fittings costs (viewed in full sets, as well as current theoretical minimums and maximums - all that "no one would actually run this" stuff just to establish outliers) Availability and cost of equipment also, unsurprisingly, has implications for the balance of equipment related skill buffs (the Demolitions Skill/Proxy/RE/Minmatar in Method #3 interaction is a highlight of that). Simply put, scaling A & B not to include C will likely alter them substantially enough that they would no longer be very indicative of how things might function with or without a C type aspect present. Considering the concerns raised in this thread however I am currently (more feedback please!) leaning toward a "Apply A & B with the understanding that further refinements and the possible addition of C are pending as and if needed". I hate the possible FotM risk, but I would rather risk a temporary flash of than than either dismiss feedback or discard iterative balance and just start "shooting in the dark" instead. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4112	Posted - 2014.10.01 22:04:00 - [686] - Quote I am certainly well behind on this discussion. I like most of what I see on Cross' spreadsheet. After looking at that and reading the subsequent replies, these are my initial thoughts: 1) Just like Pokey, I like my proposed change to the EQ bonuses best, the global one. But, I think 50% is actually too high, the original proposal was for roughly 30%, to avoid over-homogenizing the suits, which is the most valid criticism of the idea. Alternately, there was another proposal (arkena/kirk, I believe) to do partial bonuses. I've come around to liking that one a lot. So, instead of, for example, the Amarr logi getting 50% (or 30%) of the current Minmatar bonus, it would get maybe 75% of half the bonus. So, Minmatar would get 10% to range and 5% to repair rate, and Amarr would get no bonus for range, and 3% to rate. Caldari gets 7% to range and no bonus to rate. Gallente either gets the same as Amarr, or maybe we give them a little of both. 2) I agree that the concerns about Slayer logis are rather silly at this point, and hardly see how increasing the Amarr logi suits PG by 3% (as proposed, which lets not forget, is coupled with a nerf to CPU) is suddenly going to make it some amazing offensive machine, even if you did double the fitting bonus. As it stands now I simply can't fit both good equipment and an Amarr weapon on the suit because the PG is pathetic. You're also doing it wrong if you are trying to run slayer on an Amarr logi suit with a laz0r weapon (admittedly, the Amarr assault is the gold standard for assaults, no pun intended). Regardless, if people are really that concerned about this, you could just make the fitting bonus even higher and not buff the base fitting of the suits at all. Not sure that's the most beneficial method for lower SP players, however. (Seriously though, the Amarr PG is sad and needs to be adjusted, I have so many fits with 0 PG and at least 10CPU left over it's not even funny... and that's when not running Amarr weapons) 3) The idea of equipment having the same total number of spawns/clusters spread out among more, "smaller" units is interesting but I think it works better for nanohives (actually would make them a much more useful and practical item) than uplinks. At the very least you would need to keep 1 uplink variant with current functionality that could be used as fallback positions otherwise you might find it too easy to get redlined as teams will not have anywhere left to spawn when pushed back from the front lines where the uplinks will presumably be. 4) I'm on the fence about simultaneously increasing fitting costs of equipment. On one hand, I want to say to the non-logis (not you specifically shotty, I swear) "** off, isn't this what you wanted, less spam, right? Well, now you get it, dumbass. Have fun trudging back from the MCC or finding some ammo. Be careful what you fcking ask for!"* Then again, there are legit reasons for other classes to use equipment and maybe we should scale the increase. Maybe just buffing the logi fitting bonus alone is sufficient. But I think I still have to go with Cross in that I see zero problem with non-logis's needing to downgrade their equipment. To anyone who disagrees, I'll pose the same question as Cross. If other classes can use the same equipment in a totally self-sufficient way, why does the logi suit need to exist? You may like using the equipment, see a valid tactical reason for your particular suit class to need it, but in a global sense, why does a squad, much less an organized PC team, need a logi if they can easily spread equipment out amongst others? (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3204	Posted - 2014.10.01 22:13:00 - [687] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Just like Pokey, I like my proposed change to the EQ bonuses best, the global one. But, I think 50% is actually too high, the original proposal was for roughly 30%, to avoid over-homogenizing the suits, which is the most valid criticism of the idea. To be fair, I think what Cross is going for with the increase to fitting is that it would make it such that only Logis can easily fit Proto Equipment, which in turns makes them better at using all equipment than any other role. So in effect, the resource reduction bonus is actually an equipment buff for all equipment, simply because it's able to use a higher tier than what you could use otherwise. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3008	Posted - 2014.10.01 22:23:00 - [688] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Just like Pokey, I like my proposed change to the EQ bonuses best, the global one. But, I think 50% is actually too high, the original proposal was for roughly 30%, to avoid over-homogenizing the suits, which is the most valid criticism of the idea. To be fair, I think what Cross is going for with the increase to fitting is that it would make it such that only Logis can easily fit Proto Equipment, which in turns makes them better at using all equipment than any other role. So in effect, the resource reduction bonus is actually an equipment buff for all equipment, simply because it's able to use a higher tier than what you could use otherwise. You are correct, one aspect/goal of that change is to enhance the specialized value of the support niche without overbuffing the specific racial skills or removing the diversity they instill. The role bonus should be exactly that. Assaults get a discount to Light Weapons, Sidearms, and Grenades Scouts get a discount to Cloaks Commandos get a reload speed bonus (maximizing their ability to capitalize on those two Light Weapons) Sentinels get Damage Resistance and a discount to Heavy Weapons Logistics get a discount to Equipment (but if the other roles can already run the proto equipment they need all the time then...) ^That was the general thought process behind that specific sub-aspect of the proposed alteration to fittings values on "the big four" (i.e. the four primary pieces of support equipment as defined by CCPs assigning them - 1 each - to the logistics suits by race). See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3365	Posted - 2014.10.01 23:39:00 - [689] - Quote After looking at your spreadsheet, I see nothing that would in any way overpower the class, but there are a few things I disagree with. While I understand your logic behind giving Minmatar/Caldari a shield transporter bonus if it were implemented, it makes no real sense why the Amarr would have a bonus to Minmatar equipment while the Minmatar themselves have no bonus to their own equipment. I think that Method 3 is really a no-go. Method 1, as many other people have said, really reeks of homogenization. Method 2 is definitely my favorite, but the Tertiary bonuses in Method 2 don't make sense to me. They are all bonuses to the equipment of the primary enemy of the logi's race. The Amarr, lore-wise, wouldn't want a bonus to Minmatar equipment, so on and so forth. The tertiary bonus should be the ally of the enemy's equipment, for example, a bonus to nanohives for the Minmatar, a bonus to scanners for the Amarr, a bonus to uplinks for the Gallente, and a bonus to the rep tool for the Caldari. Those were just my personal opinion disagreements, but now I'd like to point out a few math discrepancies. I have to point out that if you decrease remote explosive damage by 25%, you will need to make the logi bonus give a 33.33% increase in order to keep the damage the same. Alternatively, you could decrease the remote damage by 20%, and the 25% logi increase will keep it at where it is currently. The amounts of eHP each logi is getting is the same, 30 in one stat and 50 in another for a total of 80 for each logi, and that's all well and good, but you have to consider that the Amarr logi has the most eHP, and should get the biggest increase, while the Minmatar should get a smaller increase to give the same percentages. If we use the Caldari and Gallente as the template, they are getting a ~28% increase to their dominant stat and a ~33% increase to their recessive stat. So applying that to the Amarr and Minmatar, the Amarr should get +28% to their armor, which would make it +60 armor instead of +50(not a big difference, but CCP has specifically set up health to speed ratios, and you have to increase by percentages rather than set amounts if you want to keep the ratios the same) and the Minmatar would get +40 armor instead of +50. But having said all that, I'm really just nitpicking, it's a solid proposal. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3205	Posted - 2014.10.01 23:46:00 - [690] - Quote Thinking more on it I wouldn't mind Method 2 if the concept of making Repair Tools a Role Bonus rather than a Min Bonus was brought over from Method 3. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs

Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 862	Posted - 2014.10.02 00:34:00 - [691] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: In my opinion, a better question is ... If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults? PS: I like your corp name, by the way. A great book :-) Do you feel that would happen because of the improvement of the Logi's bonus? Or because of the increase in resource cost for equipment? I think the concern here is if Logis get a boost to eHP, as well as a better fitting bonus, that leaves more room for tank and gank modules, as well as having the best equipment. This was the initial reason Logis were the go to suit for a bit. I apologies for being a bit nit picky here (I kind of hate it when people do that on forums) but for the sake of clearlity this one needs pointed to. eHP is not the same as HP HP = Raw value of buffer tank eHP = *Effective* Hit Points, and depending on the use case things like mobility, eWar, etc can apply here. Things like HP regeneration and damage reduction certainly do apply here. The concern over total eHP and dps output is one of the key reasons for the suggested change in equipment fittings values along with the reduction to average logistics base fittings resources (stats on suit). Correct. The reason I say eHP is because with the buff to HP + Core Skills, adding in the fitting bonus and regen buffs will possibly make fitting the modules you speak of easier. I guess my point is to just make sure and tread carefully with the fitting bonus and CPU / Grid reductions and buffs. I too am not the greatest at math. Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 862	Posted - 2014.10.02 00:37:00 - [692] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Thinking more on it I wouldn't mind Method 2 if the concept of making Repair Tools a Role Bonus rather than a Min Bonus was brought over from Method 3. EDIT: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15aVEIBYvliNdoSlu0RX_dt4zfXBjdDMx2iNoFoPY3Fw/edit?usp=sharing For simplicity, I'd just add the Repair Tool bonus to the Role Bonus along with the Fitting Reduction, that way you're not listing the same damn thing on every suit. I may be in the minority here, but I have no desire to have a bonus to RE's, and am still confused why they are considered equipment when you unlock them with grenades... Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 862	Posted - 2014.10.02 00:44:00 - [693] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: But I think I still have to go with Cross in that I see zero problem with non-logis's needing to downgrade their equipment. To anyone who disagrees, I'll pose the same question as Cross. If other classes can use the same equipment in a totally self-sufficient way, why does the logi suit need to exist? You may like using the equipment, see a valid tactical reason for your particular suit class to need it, but in a global sense, why does a squad, much less an organized PC team, need a logi if they can easily spread equipment out amongst others? I think this quote might put me on board with the direction equipment is heading. A squad should need and want a Logi. My other concern is will other roles want Logis to not be able to carry or use Proto weapons. If only a Logi can carry Proto equipment and weapons, it makes me wonder what type of blowback will arise. I am not adamently opposed to this, I'm mainly supporting, not killing, but I do need to defend myself from time to time. Just a thought. Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4114	Posted - 2014.10.02 00:46:00 - [694] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Just like Pokey, I like my proposed change to the EQ bonuses best, the global one. But, I think 50% is actually too high, the original proposal was for roughly 30%, to avoid over-homogenizing the suits, which is the most valid criticism of the idea. To be fair, I think what Cross is going for with the increase to fitting is that it would make it such that only Logis can easily fit Proto Equipment, which in turns makes them better at using all equipment than any other role. So in effect, the resource reduction bonus is actually an equipment buff for all equipment, simply because it's able to use a higher tier than what you could use otherwise. I actually wasn't talking about the fitting bonus there, sorry for the vague lead-in. I'm talking about the bonus to actual equipment function, e.g, minmatar get 10%/5% to rep tools per level. Cross proposed 50% of the primary bonus to go to other races (5%/2.5%, to use the same example), I think it should be a little less, like 30%. I'm totally in agreement with the equipment fitting bonus changes. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6595	Posted - 2014.10.02 01:14:00 - [695] - Quote Reduced lock-on times for the repair tools would be nice. Maybe another re-evaluation of Active Scanners as they could be doing a little better. Reduced duration killed the scanner-ina stuff but the increased cooldown is a bit much, imo. Something that I'd like to see (that I keep asking for) is standard variations of weaponry (assault combat rifle, for instance). That'd work wonders for lower tier Logistics suits in terms of fitting capability. 1.35 damage per round isn't worth 21 CPU/1 PG to me (standard vs advanced combat rifle) { \| bittervetmode = 1 I } == Description == This player has reached their breaking point [[Category: Angry]]
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3017	Posted - 2014.10.02 03:27:00 - [696] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: After looking at your spreadsheet, I see nothing that would in any way overpower the class, but there are a few things I disagree with. While I understand your logic behind giving Minmatar/Caldari a shield transporter bonus if it were implemented, it makes no real sense why the Amarr would have a bonus to Minmatar equipment while the Minmatar themselves have no bonus to their own equipment. I think that Method 3 is really a no-go. Method 1, as many other people have said, really reeks of homogenization. Method 2 is definitely my favorite, but the Tertiary bonuses in Method 2 don't make sense to me. They are all bonuses to the equipment of the primary enemy of the logi's race. The Amarr, lore-wise, wouldn't want a bonus to Minmatar equipment, so on and so forth. The tertiary bonus should be the ally of the enemy's equipment, for example, a bonus to nanohives for the Minmatar, a bonus to scanners for the Amarr, a bonus to uplinks for the Gallente, and a bonus to the rep tool for the Caldari. Those were just my personal opinion disagreements, but now I'd like to point out a few math discrepancies. While I love lore, and racial flavor, and making the world draw together because of it (I have stacks of RPGs around which attest to this) the simple truth at this point is that the "toolbox" when it comes to dust assets, particularly equipment in this case, is limited enough that I have had to primarily dismiss lore from my considerations as the proposal was crafted But, it is what it is, and regardless of the why of my actions your support for Method #2 is noted Logi Bro wrote: I have to point out that if you decrease remote explosive damage by 25%, you will need to make the logi bonus give a 33.33% increase in order to keep the damage the same. Alternatively, you could decrease the remote damage by 20%, and the 25% logi increase will keep it at where it is currently. Now, once again admitting I'm not the best numbers guy, but what about the effects of the Demolition skill change? That should keep things even on base before applying any theoretical change to racial logi skills no? (because it is supposed to, and if it doesn't then it needs to be changed ) Logi Bro wrote: The amounts of eHP each logi is getting is the same, 30 in one stat and 50 in another for a total of 80 for each logi, and that's all well and good, but you have to consider that the Amarr logi has the most eHP, and should get the biggest increase, while the Minmatar should get a smaller increase to give the same percentages. If we use the Caldari and Gallente as the template, they are getting a ~28% increase to their dominant stat and a ~33% increase to their recessive stat. So applying that to the Amarr and Minmatar, the Amarr should get +28% to their armor, which would make it +60 armor instead of +50(not a big difference, but CCP has specifically set up health to speed ratios, and you have to increase by percentages rather than set amounts if you want to keep the ratios the same) and the Minmatar would get +40 armor instead of +50. But having said all that, I'm really just nitpicking, it's a solid proposal. All increase values in all logi racial lines have been intentionally kept as uniform as possible to avoid altering *internal* logi balance while we close the gap on *external* logi vs rest of frames balance. While you are correct that the Amarr have higher HP than the Minmatar, in theory every suit in a role should have the same eHP once all is said and done. And while, yes, the changes could be sculpted to an extent such that they would further feed, rather than simply maintain as they currently do, the diversity of the racial profiles, the margins for possible change on any given attribute are relatively small due to ensuring the logi frame does not encroach the role of either scout or assault. The final consideration in this regard is that some of these aspects are a bit "apples to oranges" which is good, but it does create a devil of a time if we cannot buff them all by the same %Delta which in some cases we cannot because the actual numbers do not have room to do so, either because of how close they are to scout/assault or because of possible rounding which would force them outside of that % margin anyway. Now, having said all of that I more than welcome you to put together some alternate numbers on this front which more fully take into account both racial flavor and HP to speed ratios. Since I do all of this stuff in my (so called) free time it is quite possible that I have yet to hit on a more dynamic method that is still workable within this context, and if you (or someone else) can present it to me then so much the better Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3018	Posted - 2014.10.02 03:44:00 - [697] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: But I think I still have to go with Cross in that I see zero problem with non-logis's needing to downgrade their equipment. To anyone who disagrees, I'll pose the same question as Cross. If other classes can use the same equipment in a totally self-sufficient way, why does the logi suit need to exist? You may like using the equipment, see a valid tactical reason for your particular suit class to need it, but in a global sense, why does a squad, much less an organized PC team, need a logi if they can easily spread equipment out amongst others? I think this quote might put me on board with the direction equipment is heading. A squad should need and want a Logi. My other concern is will other roles want Logis to not be able to carry or use Proto weapons. If only a Logi can carry Proto equipment and weapons, it makes me wonder what type of blowback will arise. I am not adamently opposed to this, I'm mainly supporting, not killing, but I do need to defend myself from time to time. Just a thought. I have all related skills (weapon, fitting, etc) to max and already cannot run both a full proto tank and full proto weapons (LW+nad and sidearm for the Amarr) if I first ensure the use of a full set of proto equipment filling all slots. So this requirement, that fittings - not slot layout or some other hard coded restriction - not allow room for that is already the case at present (clearly not all fits are created equally, and there are exceptions). I totally agree with your point that treading carefully is important however for while I think making it more CPU/PG intensive to run gear from another role is fine; Scouts get cloaks, Assaults have LW/Sidearm/Nade, Sent have Heavy Weapons, etc. such things should not be absolutely prohibitive, just usually suboptimal, in essence it comes at a high cost in fittings resources. I also, just for anyone jumping into the thread at this point, want to reiterate that said proposed changes are only proposed for "the big 4" pieces of logistics support equipment as defined by CCPs application of racial logistics bonuses (i.e. Rep Tool, Active scan, Links, Hives). The change is not intended nor proposed to be applied more generally. (And in keeping with this tone the current discount logi gain to fitting a cloak because it is 'equipment' would no longer apply). Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3018	Posted - 2014.10.02 03:48:00 - [698] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Reduced lock-on times for the repair tools would be nice. Working on that pending all the usual tech VooDoo Aeon Amadi wrote: Maybe another re-evaluation of Active Scanners as they could be doing a little better. Reduced duration killed the scanner-ina stuff but the increased cooldown is a bit much, imo. I honestly hadn't considered touching the cooldown as an aspect, that's worth thinking about thanks Aeon Amadi wrote: Something that I'd like to see (that I keep asking for) is standard variations of weaponry (assault combat rifle, for instance). That'd work wonders for lower tier Logistics suits in terms of fitting capability. 1.35 damage per round isn't worth 21 CPU/1 PG to me (standard vs advanced combat rifle) That's a bit outside of my domain as far as this proposal is concerned, but it is certainly something the CPM could have a conversation about. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6600	Posted - 2014.10.02 05:49:00 - [699] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Reduced lock-on times for the repair tools would be nice. Working on that pending all the usual tech VooDoo Aeon Amadi wrote: Maybe another re-evaluation of Active Scanners as they could be doing a little better. Reduced duration killed the scanner-ina stuff but the increased cooldown is a bit much, imo. I honestly hadn't considered touching the cooldown as an aspect, that's worth thinking about thanks Aeon Amadi wrote: Something that I'd like to see (that I keep asking for) is standard variations of weaponry (assault combat rifle, for instance). That'd work wonders for lower tier Logistics suits in terms of fitting capability. 1.35 damage per round isn't worth 21 CPU/1 PG to me (standard vs advanced combat rifle) That's a bit outside of my domain as far as this proposal is concerned, but it is certainly something the CPM could have a conversation about. Cheers, Cross Right, but it does loosely tie-in to the overall balance aspect of things because the Logistics don't have a sidearm. Personally, I'd rather players use the gear they want at the lower tiers than have to be shoe-horned into paying extra ISK/CPU/PG for a weapon they like using because there's no standard variant. { \| bittervetmode = 1 I } == Description == This player has reached their breaking point [[Category: Angry]]
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 367	Posted - 2014.10.02 07:16:00 - [700] - Quote Just make logis faster. Make them just as fast as assaults(maybe faster?), but with more Stamina. That way they can run away from pretty much anything but a scout, but their actual combat effectiveness is still low.

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3022	Posted - 2014.10.02 07:40:00 - [701] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Just make logis faster. Make them just as fast as assaults(maybe faster?), but with more Stamina. That way they can run away from pretty much anything but a scout, but their actual combat effectiveness is still low. Without some level of enhanced survivability outside of speed most of the light weapons in the game do not care how fast you are, just as the Rail Rifle, or any scout caught out in the open 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3207	Posted - 2014.10.02 07:43:00 - [702] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Thinking more on it I wouldn't mind Method 2 if the concept of making Repair Tools a Role Bonus rather than a Min Bonus was brought over from Method 3. EDIT: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15aVEIBYvliNdoSlu0RX_dt4zfXBjdDMx2iNoFoPY3Fw/edit?usp=sharing For simplicity, I'd just add the Repair Tool bonus to the Role Bonus along with the Fitting Reduction, that way you're not listing the same damn thing on every suit. I may be in the minority here, but I have no desire to have a bonus to RE's, and am still confused why they are considered equipment when you unlock them with grenades... I consider indirect combat support such as controlling enemy movement via remotes/proxies as part of the Logistics role. From the people I've talked to, there is a demand for a bonus such as this. If anything Logistics are most suited for this sort of work as they are able to carry remotes/proxies without limiting their support abilities like an Assault would, as the Assault only has one equipment to work with, and will often want something else in that slot that's more beneficial to its direct-combat role. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3342	Posted - 2014.10.02 07:45:00 - [703] - Quote Unfortunately cross I have no idea just how tight the commandos really are until I am off work and bust out a calculator or get my light weapons to 5 and all of the light weapon optimizations to 4. All I know is that I'm aiming for basic RE/prox mines and I can only get that on two of my fits. Hives/links are right out ATM. Otherwise I have engineering/electronics 5. So I need to defer to more heavily specced commando users. But no I was never advocating that commandos need proto rep gear. Basic serves my purpose there easily as a secondary logi assistant. I would like commandos to have an eadier time fitting offensively aspected equipment. Scanners, explosives, mines and non rep hives seem most appropriate given they are specced for havoc and suffer rapid ammo depletion if you survive longer than three minutes.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4117	Posted - 2014.10.02 12:10:00 - [704] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Unfortunately cross I have no idea just how tight the commandos really are until I am off work and bust out a calculator or get my light weapons to 5 and all of the light weapon optimizations to 4. All I know is that I'm aiming for basic RE/prox mines and I can only get that on two of my fits. Hives/links are right out ATM. Otherwise I have engineering/electronics 5. So I need to defer to more heavily specced commando users. But no I was never advocating that commandos need proto rep gear. Basic serves my purpose there easily as a secondary logi assistant. I would like commandos to have an eadier time fitting offensively aspected equipment. Scanners, explosives, mines and non rep hives seem most appropriate given they are specced for havoc and suffer rapid ammo depletion if you survive longer than three minutes. I edited it out of my earlier post, but I agree. If there was a global increase to fitting costs of equipment, non-rep hives should be treated differently; everyone has a legit reason to use those. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 29	Posted - 2014.10.02 13:07:00 - [705] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: I may be in the minority here, but I have no desire to have a bonus to RE's, and am still confused why they are considered equipment when you unlock them with grenades... Your not the only one, as Logi Bro pointed out the rep tool is Minmatar equipment why wouldn't they have a bonus in using it. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3036	Posted - 2014.10.02 18:55:00 - [706] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Unfortunately cross I have no idea just how tight the commandos really are until I am off work and bust out a calculator or get my light weapons to 5 and all of the light weapon optimizations to 4. All I know is that I'm aiming for basic RE/prox mines and I can only get that on two of my fits. Hives/links are right out ATM. Otherwise I have engineering/electronics 5. So I need to defer to more heavily specced commando users. But no I was never advocating that commandos need proto rep gear. Basic serves my purpose there easily as a secondary logi assistant. I would like commandos to have an eadier time fitting offensively aspected equipment. Scanners, explosives, mines and non rep hives seem most appropriate given they are specced for havoc and suffer rapid ammo depletion if you survive longer than three minutes. I am beginning to be of the impression the the Commando may need an uptrend on its fittings situation generally speaking. I don't have a commando suit unlocked at present sadly but how would it effect things if their fittings resources matched the racial Sent? See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 195	Posted - 2014.10.02 18:59:00 - [707] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Unfortunately cross I have no idea just how tight the commandos really are until I am off work and bust out a calculator or get my light weapons to 5 and all of the light weapon optimizations to 4. All I know is that I'm aiming for basic RE/prox mines and I can only get that on two of my fits. Hives/links are right out ATM. Otherwise I have engineering/electronics 5. So I need to defer to more heavily specced commando users. But no I was never advocating that commandos need proto rep gear. Basic serves my purpose there easily as a secondary logi assistant. I would like commandos to have an eadier time fitting offensively aspected equipment. Scanners, explosives, mines and non rep hives seem most appropriate given they are specced for havoc and suffer rapid ammo depletion if you survive longer than three minutes. I am beginning to be of the impression the the Commando may need an uptrend on its fittings situation generally speaking. I don't have a commando suit unlocked at present sadly but how would it effect things if their fittings resources matched the racial Sent? Yeah some extra fitting or give them some built in reps so you can put something besides a repper in your lows.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3036	Posted - 2014.10.02 19:16:00 - [708] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Unfortunately cross I have no idea just how tight the commandos really are until I am off work and bust out a calculator or get my light weapons to 5 and all of the light weapon optimizations to 4. All I know is that I'm aiming for basic RE/prox mines and I can only get that on two of my fits. Hives/links are right out ATM. Otherwise I have engineering/electronics 5. So I need to defer to more heavily specced commando users. But no I was never advocating that commandos need proto rep gear. Basic serves my purpose there easily as a secondary logi assistant. I would like commandos to have an eadier time fitting offensively aspected equipment. Scanners, explosives, mines and non rep hives seem most appropriate given they are specced for havoc and suffer rapid ammo depletion if you survive longer than three minutes. I am beginning to be of the impression the the Commando may need an uptrend on its fittings situation generally speaking. I don't have a commando suit unlocked at present sadly but how would it effect things if their fittings resources matched the racial Sent? Yeah some extra fitting or give them some built in reps so you can put something besides a repper in your lows. Commando Thread Created. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3071	Posted - 2014.10.03 20:02:00 - [709] - Quote Now that we've pretty much established the Commando needs its own touch ups (and that they will be taken care of outside of this proposal to maintain the iterative approach to changes) I'd like to focus in on where things stand for the second draft. How do the new eHP changes stack up against the prior ones? (in this case include the mobility changes) How does everyone feel about tabling just the Eq fittings changes until a second pass? Good idea, bad idea, keep them in but with one of the scaled methods? Would people please reiterate their skill method preferences with their second choice present as well (since all of these are contingent on the tech eval saying "yes we can do that") Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 203	Posted - 2014.10.03 20:22:00 - [710] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Now that we've pretty much established the Commando needs its own touch ups (and that they will be taken care of outside of this proposal to maintain the iterative approach to changes) I'd like to focus in on where things stand for the second draft. How do the new eHP changes stack up against the prior ones? (in this case include the mobility changes) How does everyone feel about tabling just the Eq fittings changes until a second pass? Good idea, bad idea, keep them in but with one of the scaled methods? Would people please reiterate their skill method preferences with their second choice present as well (since all of these are contingent on the tech eval saying "yes we can do that") Cheers, Cross I say just give the suit some extra cpu/pg(not much 30 cpu,5pg) and some built in reps.I have 3 proto commandos right now gallente, caldari, and minmatar. Caldari i usually fit w damage and reps, minmatar damage and reps, and gallente reps and kin cat. Id like to put something else besides reps on my suit thats about it, and the fitting space, even on the proto is tight. Im liking these commandos still, my fave suit.

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4118	Posted - 2014.10.03 20:54:00 - [711] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Now that we've pretty much established the Commando needs its own touch ups (and that they will be taken care of outside of this proposal to maintain the iterative approach to changes) I'd like to focus in on where things stand for the second draft. How do the new eHP changes stack up against the prior ones? (in this case include the mobility changes) How does everyone feel about tabling just the Eq fittings changes until a second pass? Good idea, bad idea, keep them in but with one of the scaled methods? Would people please reiterate their skill method preferences with their second choice present as well (since all of these are contingent on the tech eval saying "yes we can do that") Cheers, Cross 1)I agree with Logi Bro (hung up your HMG this week, did you?) in that the HP changes should be scaled the same way the suits are now due to the inherent speed/HP ratios. They may not be perfect but there is a good reason for them, unlike some other things CCP does. Why should the Minmatar suit get a proportionately [u]larger[/b] HP buff while IGÇÖm still a plodding beast? (And also the same relative buff to stamina!) 2)IGÇÖm fine with tabling the increase to equipment fitting for now, no need to change too many things at once. 3)Of all the methods you list, I naturally pick #2, but still think it might be a little strong. Again, the original proposal I put out was for ~30% of the original bonus, not 50%. Not that I would have a problem with getting that big a bonus to rep tools but I understand the concerns about reducing diversity too much. IGÇÖll take this opportunity to finally flesh out what I guess I should call my GÇ£Method 2bGÇ¥ in the next postGÇª. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4118	Posted - 2014.10.03 20:57:00 - [712] - Quote Basically, instead of getting a smaller version of both parts of the GÇ£originalGÇ¥ EQ bonus, you get a bigger version of half of it. That way you keep some diversity. Here is what you would get, using ~75-100% of the original bonus. In this example, to keep even more racial flavor, I will give 100% to allies, 75% to enemies. Amarr/Caldari get maximum benefit to deployables, Minmatar/Gallente to active equipment. Certainly you donGÇÖt have to make that distinction and could simply pick either 75 or 100% and use it for all 3 secondary bonuses regardless of race. Amarr: Primary bonus: 10% to uplink spawn time, +2 to max spawns per level Secondary bonuses (goal: apply pressure): -3% bonus to repair tool rate per level -3% bonus to active scanner precision per level -5% of nanohive supply/repair rate per level Cakdari: Primary bonus: 10% max nanites and 5% to supply/repair rate per level Secondary bonuses (Goal: Engage at range): -7.5% bonus to repair tool range per level -7.5% bonus to scanner visibility duration per level -+2 to max uplink spawn count per level (on the fence about this one) Minmatar: Primary bonus: 10% bonus to repair tool range and 5% to repair rate per level Secondary bonuses (goal: Get the most use out of each piece of equipment. Also: duct tape; not having to work on the landscaping of my estate for the next 8 generations): -10% bonus to scanner visibility duration per level -+1 to max uplink spawn count per level -7.5% bonus to max nanites per level Gallente: Primary bonus: 10% to active scanner visibility duration and 5% to precision per level Secondary bonuses (goal: Minimize casualties. Also: Minimize getting syphilis) -5% bonus to repair tool rate per level -3% bonus to nanohive supply/repair rate per level -7.5% bonus to uplink spawn time per level (on the fence about this one too) I think I'm going to say this might be my preferred solution, actually. What is listed as method 2 on the spreadsheet is my second choice. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3077	Posted - 2014.10.03 21:10:00 - [713] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: 1)I agree with Logi Bro (hung up your HMG this week, did you?) in that the HP changes should be scaled the same way the suits are now due to the inherent speed/HP ratios. They may not be perfect but there is a good reason for them, unlike some other things CCP does. Why should the Minmatar suit get a proportionately larger HP buff while IGÇÖm still a plodding beast? (And also the same relative buff to stamina!) 2)IGÇÖm fine with tabling the increase to equipment fitting for now, no need to change too many things at once. 3)Of all the methods you list, I naturally pick #2, but still think it might be a little strong. Again, the original proposal I put out was for ~30% of the original bonus, not 50%. Not that I would have a problem with getting that big a bonus to rep tools but I understand the concerns about reducing diversity too much. IGÇÖll take this opportunity to finally flesh out what I guess I should call my GÇ£Method 2bGÇ¥ in the next postGÇª. 1) Happy to extend you the same invitation I did him with regards to cooking some numbers up for that 2) nods thanks for the input 3) That modification is worth keeping in mind esp if we narrow in on that being the primary advocated method, now rather than ramble on I'll go read that "Method 2b" post Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4119	Posted - 2014.10.03 21:12:00 - [714] - Quote I'm afraid I well exceeded my quota for hard numbers in the method 2b post, not gonna touch the HP thing for now. I do have actual work to do, lol. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 302	Posted - 2014.10.03 22:31:00 - [715] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Basically, instead of getting a smaller version of both parts of the GÇ£originalGÇ¥ EQ bonus, you get a bigger version of half of it. That way you keep some diversity. Here is what you would get, using ~75-100% of the original bonus. In this example, to keep even more racial flavor, I will give 100% to allies, 75% to enemies. Amarr/Caldari get maximum benefit to deployables, Minmatar/Gallente to active equipment. Certainly you donGÇÖt have to make that distinction and could simply pick either 75 or 100% and use it for all 3 secondary bonuses regardless of race. Amarr: Primary bonus: 10% to uplink spawn time, +2 to max spawns per level Secondary bonuses: -3% bonus to repair tool rate per level -3% bonus to active scanner precision per level -5% of nanohive supply/repair rate per level Cakdari: Primary bonus: 10% max nanites and 5% to supply/repair rate per level Secondary bonuses (Goal: Engage at range): -7.5% bonus to repair tool range per level -7.5% bonus to scanner visibility duration per level -+2 to max uplink spawn count per level (on the fence about this one) Minmatar: Primary bonus: 10% bonus to repair tool range and 5% to repair rate per level Secondary bonuses (goal: Get the most use out of each piece of equipment. Also: duct tape; not having to work on the landscaping of my estate for the next 8 generations): -10% bonus to scanner visibility duration per level -+1 to max uplink spawn count per level -7.5% bonus to max nanites per level Gallente: Primary bonus: 10% to active scanner visibility duration and 5% to precision per level Secondary bonuses (goal: Minimize casualties. Also: Minimize getting syphilis) -5% bonus to repair tool rate per level -3% bonus to nanohive supply/repair rate per level -7.5% bonus to uplink spawn time per level (on the fence about this one too) I think I'm going to say this might be my preferred solution, actually. What is listed as method 2 on the spreadsheet is my second choice. I don't really like the randomization here, why are some getting spawn counts, and some get the spawn timer... makes no sense to me. For all bonuses, I would say, give all logis 2% to opponents races stuff, 4% to allies stuff and 5% to your own stuff (if 5% is the max, the native race gets). Amarr: Primary bonus: 10% to uplink spawn time, +2 to max spawns per level: Secondary bonuses: -2% bonus to repair tool rate per level and 4% bonus to repair tool range per level -2% bonus to active scanner precision per level -8% max nanites and 4% of nanohive supply/repair rate per level Caldari: Primary bonus: 10% max nanites and 5% to supply/repair rate per level Secondary bonuses: -2% bonus to repair tool rate per level and 4% bonus to repair tool range per level -2% to precision per level and 4% bonus to scanner visibility duration per level -8% bonus to uplink spawn time per level and +2 to max uplink spawn count per level Minmatar: Primary bonus: 10% bonus to repair tool range and 5% to repair rate per level Secondary bonuses: -8% bonus to scanner visibility duration per level and 4% to precision per level -4% bonus to uplink spawn time per level and +1 to max uplink spawn count per level -4% bonus to max nanites per level and 2% bonus to nanohive supply/repair rate per level Gallente: Primary bonus: 10% to active scanner visibility duration and 5% to precision per level Secondary bonuses: -8% bonus to repair tool range and 4% bonus to repair tool rate per level -4% max nanites per level and 2% bonus to nanohive supply/repair rate per level -4% bonus to uplink spawn time per level and +1 to max uplink spawn count per level Considering the introduction of shield transporters (shield repper) I wouldn't like the minmatar to be pushed in the shield direction repping wise, since they are dual tankers... this will be difficult to balance... but I guess that it makes sense considering the EVE lore... Another thing I've proposed before, if every logi has a wish for putting a repper/transporter on, why not put a repper/transporter slot where the sidearm of all the other frames is... Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing...
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1869	Posted - 2014.10.03 22:50:00 - [716] - Quote John's numbers personally. Each logo gets different bonuses to different areas of a given equipment, promoting diversity. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4122	Posted - 2014.10.03 23:21:00 - [717] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Basically, instead of getting a smaller version of both parts of the GÇ£originalGÇ¥ EQ bonus, you get a bigger version of half of it. That way you keep some diversity. Here is what you would get, using ~75-100% of the original bonus. In this example, to keep even more racial flavor, I will give 100% to allies, 75% to enemies. Amarr/Caldari get maximum benefit to deployables, Minmatar/Gallente to active equipment. Certainly you donGÇÖt have to make that distinction and could simply pick either 75 or 100% and use it for all 3 secondary bonuses regardless of race. Amarr: Primary bonus: 10% to uplink spawn time, +2 to max spawns per level Secondary bonuses: -3% bonus to repair tool rate per level -3% bonus to active scanner precision per level -5% of nanohive supply/repair rate per level Cakdari: Primary bonus: 10% max nanites and 5% to supply/repair rate per level Secondary bonuses (Goal: Engage at range): -7.5% bonus to repair tool range per level -7.5% bonus to scanner visibility duration per level -+2 to max uplink spawn count per level (on the fence about this one) Minmatar: Primary bonus: 10% bonus to repair tool range and 5% to repair rate per level Secondary bonuses (goal: Get the most use out of each piece of equipment. Also: duct tape; not having to work on the landscaping of my estate for the next 8 generations): -10% bonus to scanner visibility duration per level -+1 to max uplink spawn count per level -7.5% bonus to max nanites per level Gallente: Primary bonus: 10% to active scanner visibility duration and 5% to precision per level Secondary bonuses (goal: Minimize casualties. Also: Minimize getting syphilis) -5% bonus to repair tool rate per level -3% bonus to nanohive supply/repair rate per level -7.5% bonus to uplink spawn time per level (on the fence about this one too) I think I'm going to say this might be my preferred solution, actually. What is listed as method 2 on the spreadsheet is my second choice. I don't really like the randomization here, why are some getting spawn counts, and some get the spawn timer... makes no sense to me. For all bonuses, I would say, give all logis 2% to opponents races stuff, 4% to allies stuff and 5% to your own stuff (if 5% is the max, the native race gets). Amarr: Primary bonus: 10% to uplink spawn time, +2 to max spawns per level: Secondary bonuses: -2% bonus to repair tool rate per level and 4% bonus to repair tool range per level -2% bonus to active scanner precision per level -8% max nanites and 4% of nanohive supply/repair rate per level Caldari: Primary bonus: 10% max nanites and 5% to supply/repair rate per level Secondary bonuses: -2% bonus to repair tool rate per level and 4% bonus to repair tool range per level -2% to precision per level and 4% bonus to scanner visibility duration per level -8% bonus to uplink spawn time per level and +2 to max uplink spawn count per level Minmatar: Primary bonus: 10% bonus to repair tool range and 5% to repair rate per level Secondary bonuses: -8% bonus to scanner visibility duration per level and 4% to precision per level -4% bonus to uplink spawn time per level and +1 to max uplink spawn count per level -4% bonus to max nanites per level and 2% bonus to nanohive supply/repair rate per level Gallente: Primary bonus: 10% to active scanner visibility duration and 5% to precision per level Secondary bonuses: -8% bonus to repair tool range and 4% bonus to repair tool rate per level -4% max nanites per level and 2% bonus to nanohive supply/repair rate per level -4% bonus to uplink spawn time per level and +1 to max uplink spawn count per level Considering the introduction of shield transporters (shield repper) I wouldn't like the minmatar to be pushed in the shield direction repping wise, since they are dual tankers... this will be difficult to balance... but I guess that it makes sense considering the EVE lore... Another thing I've proposed before, if every logi has a wish for putting a repper/transporter on, why not put a repper/transporter slot where the sidearm of all the other frames is... It's not random. See the "goal" listed for each race, which is more or less based on the Dust version of the lore. That said, if you have a better justification for giving the opposite bonus, I'm open to it. I'm also fine with each logi getting similar bonuses, as I mentioned. I'm simply trying to promote diversity; I personally think that's the preferred route, but I'm not married to the idea. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 869	Posted - 2014.10.04 01:25:00 - [718] - Quote I like the toned down numbers for HP. The main area of concern for me now is the Amarr and Gallente getting quicker shield regen timers, better percentages healed, AND double the passive armor reps. It puts their number awfully close to the "shield tankers". You could give them an extra shield HP healed instead? Making it 18 for both? What about 1 HP/s for all the frames, except Gallente, which would retain 3 HP/s? I just want to avoid any potential "Slayer" QQ. This would also be a good time to take the Min Logi in line with the other racial suits, and flip flop the shield and armor numbers. Give 30 extra shields, and 10 extra armor. Making for 160 shield and 120 armor? With the new equipment numbers, if the "big 4" are such a big deal, then shouldn't there be a tiered bonus to all 4 as a Logistic player? I may have missed the reasoning for only getting a bonus to 3 of the 4. The fourth bonus would be to the racial "enemy" equipment variant, and as such would have the lowest bonus, like 1% or something. Low, yes, but still better in a Logis hands. The toned down equipment numbers are nice too. Not as drastic, but should still limit spam a tad. All in all, I think we are progressing nicely here! Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3084	Posted - 2014.10.04 01:47:00 - [719] - Quote Just a few quick notes, people can feel free to yell at me - or even better to politely disagree - but here they are. When it comes to balancing within limited resources; Good balance > Adherence to Lore I know Jonh will smite me in the name of the empress All my duct tape will spontaneously vanish Exotic dancers will start throwing drinks in my face and someone will try a hostile takeover of my place of employment ...but really, as much as I love lore (and I do honestly) it kind of has to play second fiddle to the game actually working. Shield transporter - I really, really want one in game. I do not know if it is possible in the current dev cycle I even though I run mostly armor I think having it in game would be a huge asset Yes I am advocating it be given (bonus wise) to the Min and Cal despite such a change making me need to rebuild most of my logi fits and all of my most used ones. Cal is obvious I think, and as many objections as can be raised about the Min there are two key points 1) They make make more sense lore wise than the Gal or Amarr 2) (and more importantly) they are the most mobile and shield built race outside of the Cal so they can make the best actual use of them. Sub note here, don't hold out for a new repper slot, that is a UI overhaul thing and until CCP says otherwise all those sorts of changes are off the table. Racial Diversity* I am deeply and intently in favor of this, with one caveat, I support effective racial diversity, meaning that if a bonus isn't going to be effective then I do not really support it even if it is still diverse. This last one brings me to the discussion of racial bonuses and a few concerns. A bonus must be large enough to have an actual/meaningful impact and apply to an area or stat which is not already substantially covered. Max uplink spawn count for example is not actually all that useful in the current state of things, truly how often do you have *more than* 25 people spawn off the same proto uplink in a single match? Now with the recommended changes to uplinks form my proposal this racial buff becomes more worthwhile because at 5 spawns or less per uplink an additional 1-2 spawns per level actually becomes meaningful. Certain percentile bonuses can be this way as well, depending on how much of a percent buff they offer and how large or small the base number being modified is. I do not think this one applies to any of the ideas in our thread currently (execpt maybe nanohives, 4% is about 2 clusters per level, but until I get more details from CCP I won't know how much of anything that can actually refill) but is key to keep in mind. (Ugh, now I have to go back and recheck my numbers to make sure I fully accounted for this ) In essence, we want to make sure our efforts yield different viable and balanced logistics options, not just different options which - at least for me - can be tricky to keep track of some times when playing with the strange realm where numbers and lore meet Anyway, keep the input coming folks, it is useful Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4126	Posted - 2014.10.04 02:26:00 - [720] - Quote Cross, if you can actually get an infantry shield transporter to exist, you are welcome to give it to the dirty matari and I promise not to smite you. I will also make appropriate changes to my proposals. (It's true that the +1 or 2 per uplink is not that helpful now, though it's not entirely useless either. But, if some changes do get made, it would presumably be rather desirable...) (The godfather of tactical logistics)

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1870	Posted - 2014.10.04 02:33:00 - [721] - Quote I still think John has the right idea even if the detail is different. Logos should get a bonus to ALL equipment (even, dare I say it, remotes/proxies) but simply have a bigger bonus to their racial equipment. But a rep tool on an Amarr logi should be quantifiably better than one on a matari scout. But the Matari logi should get a better bonus on the rep tool than the Amarr logi. I do like the idea of an equipment being in the sidearm slot for quick access though. Would it be as simple as giving the logis a sidearm, and then making the sidearm slot an equipment slot? The Amarr logo can lose this abilityfor the normal sidearm slot. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3086	Posted - 2014.10.04 03:06:00 - [722] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I do like the idea of an equipment being in the sidearm slot for quick access though. Would it be as simple as giving the logis a sidearm, and then making the sidearm slot an equipment slot? The Amarr logo can lose this abilityfor the normal sidearm slot. That's a UI level change and as such won't be an option unless/until Dust development gets more resources and can do client updates. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1871	Posted - 2014.10.04 04:41:00 - [723] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I do like the idea of an equipment being in the sidearm slot for quick access though. Would it be as simple as giving the logis a sidearm, and then making the sidearm slot an equipment slot? The Amarr logo can lose this abilityfor the normal sidearm slot. That's a UI level change and as such won't be an option unless/until Dust development gets more resources and can do client updates. Unfortunate. But can we at least give the Cal and Am logis another equipment slot? Don't get why Min and Gal get 4 and not Cal and Am. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3090	Posted - 2014.10.04 06:46:00 - [724] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I do like the idea of an equipment being in the sidearm slot for quick access though. Would it be as simple as giving the logis a sidearm, and then making the sidearm slot an equipment slot? The Amarr logo can lose this abilityfor the normal sidearm slot. That's a UI level change and as such won't be an option unless/until Dust development gets more resources and can do client updates. Unfortunate. But can we at least give the Cal and Am logis another equipment slot? Don't get why Min and Gal get 4 and not Cal and Am. I'm not sure but I think slot alterations are possible within the current development set up. I can look into that. o7 See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1871	Posted - 2014.10.04 07:00:00 - [725] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I do like the idea of an equipment being in the sidearm slot for quick access though. Would it be as simple as giving the logis a sidearm, and then making the sidearm slot an equipment slot? The Amarr logo can lose this abilityfor the normal sidearm slot. That's a UI level change and as such won't be an option unless/until Dust development gets more resources and can do client updates. Unfortunate. But can we at least give the Cal and Am logis another equipment slot? Don't get why Min and Gal get 4 and not Cal and Am. I'm not sure but I think slot alterations are possible within the current development set up. I can look into that. o7 This would make my day, along with some extra pg/CPU to fit another equipment. CalLogi especially is tight even with a CPU mod. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3101	Posted - 2014.10.04 22:11:00 - [726] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: This would make my day, along with some extra pg/CPU to fit another equipment. CalLogi especially is tight even with a CPU mod. Cal CPU and Amarr PG are both on my list to be looked at/recommend tweaks to See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1877	Posted - 2014.10.05 07:46:00 - [727] - Quote Sure this has been mentioned already but... Suppose we got an increase to our equipment fitting bonus? Make it easier to fit better equipment/modules. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 133	Posted - 2014.10.05 17:00:00 - [728] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Thinking more on it I wouldn't mind Method 2 if the concept of making Repair Tools a Role Bonus rather than a Min Bonus was brought over from Method 3. EDIT: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15aVEIBYvliNdoSlu0RX_dt4zfXBjdDMx2iNoFoPY3Fw/edit?usp=sharing For simplicity, I'd just add the Repair Tool bonus to the Role Bonus along with the Fitting Reduction, that way you're not listing the same damn thing on every suit. I may be in the minority here, but I have no desire to have a bonus to RE's, and am still confused why they are considered equipment when you unlock them with grenades... I agree. I really like method 3's emphasis on every race's logis being really good with a repair tool. I love the degree to which each race maintains a unique advantage, that makes my protoing out each race's logi feel less wasteful. I'm not enthused about the RE bonus for the Minmatar, though. Let me proposed a Method 3 modification: replacing the Minmatar RE bonus with a bonus to Kin cat effectiveness, the goal being that a Minmatar logi willing to spend most or all of his low slots on Kin cats, should be fast enough to keep up with a squad of scouts, unless they're all running kin cats too. This would also present an interesting counter to the Minmatar racial enemy, Amarr logi uplink bonus (although this could also be viewed as a downside, usurping the Amarr uplink logi bonus, much the same way scouts generally are better uplink deployers than Amarr logis).
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3104	Posted - 2014.10.05 17:42:00 - [729] - Quote Updated Iteration 2 Fixed improperly entered numbers Added 1 new skill method and 2 modified versions So please check out the doc link again although if you've been keeping up with this thread the only method you have not yet seen is my modified version of Method 3 in which the Minmatar as the single duel tanked race, has a bonus to Shield Transporter and Repair Tool as its two logistics bonuses. Obviously use of this method is entirely predicated upon the ability to get a shield transporter in game, but presuming that happens how would people feel about the modified method? I think it addresses most of the concerns I have seen raised about Method 3 and even gives more of a nod to lore in the bargain, but I want feedback on it, what do you think? Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
RKKR The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1038	Posted - 2014.10.05 18:58:00 - [730] - Quote How are things going with the DEVs? You see them talking about other stuff, posting in other threads,... but nothing here?

Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 31	Posted - 2014.10.05 19:51:00 - [731] - Quote Cross, I can get behind method 4, It looks solid and also makes all logi's viable in PC for their reps. I still don't think that RE's are equipment, but Pokey has made some good points about their use. Also leveling out the PG and CPU of each suit is a good idea if they normalize the slot layouts. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3106	Posted - 2014.10.05 20:04:00 - [732] - Quote RKKR wrote: How are things going with the DEVs? You see them talking about other stuff, posting in other threads,... but nothing here? They are well aware of this thread and project, I keep them apprised directly and have CC'ed them on the proposals. It is one of the values of the CPM, we can sponsor initiatives like this one and shave a lot of dev time off of revisions and polish by conducting this conversation with the community and then bringing that feedback to CCP. Rest assured that regardless of the presence of blue tags in this thread CCP is in the loop. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3106	Posted - 2014.10.05 20:05:00 - [733] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Cross, I can get behind method 4, It looks solid and also makes all logi's viable in PC for their reps. I still don't think that RE's are equipment, but Pokey has made some good points about their use. Also leveling out the PG and CPU of each suit is a good idea if they normalize the slot layouts. Thanks for the continued feedback See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3368	Posted - 2014.10.05 21:13:00 - [734] - Quote I'll admit I haven't been following this thread very closely, but I have to say I have a very strong dislike for method 3 and 4. By giving every logi a rep tool bonus, you are saying, "your primary role is to sit behind and rep people, that is your purpose, and you aren't fulfilling your maximum potential if you aren't doing so." It's basically dooming every logistics unit to triage, when that isn't even necessarily their purpose. It's like saying every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square. The purpose of logistics is support, and just because triage is a support function, that does not mean every support function is triage. I can slap REs, an active scanner, and a nanohive on my logi and I would still be a tried and true dedicated support logi, but it's not like I'm doing any sort of triage. You might say, "just because you have the bonus, doesn't mean you have to use it," but I would then respond by saying that is faulty logic. If you are trying to buff the class by giving it more bonuses, why would you then advocate for not using those bonuses just because someone wanted to be a different kind of support unit other than triage? Having said all that, I am beginning to believe that Method 1 is the best option, despite the homogenization. You choose your logi's race based on whatever you believe the best piece of equipment to be, but you are still better with every other piece of equipment than the other classes. Since the secondary bonus is not specific, you don't have to feel like you are mis-using your suit's potential for not equipping a specific piece of equipment. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3111	Posted - 2014.10.05 21:23:00 - [735] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: I'll admit I haven't been following this thread very closely, but I have to say I have a very strong dislike for method 3 and 4. By giving every logi a rep tool bonus, you are saying, "your primary role is to sit behind and rep people, that is your purpose, and you aren't fulfilling your maximum potential if you aren't doing so." It's basically dooming every logistics unit to triage, when that isn't even necessarily their purpose. It's like saying every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square. The purpose of logistics is support, and just because triage is a support function, that does not mean every support function is triage. I can slap REs, an active scanner, and a nanohive on my logi and I would still be a tried and true dedicated support logi, but it's not like I'm doing any sort of triage. You might say, "just because you have the bonus, doesn't mean you have to use it," but I would then respond by saying that is faulty logic. If you are trying to buff the class by giving it more bonuses, why would you then advocate for not using those bonuses just because someone wanted to be a different kind of support unit other than triage? Having said all that, I am beginning to believe that Method 1 is the best option, despite the homogenization. You choose your logi's race based on whatever you believe the best piece of equipment to be, but you are still better with every other piece of equipment than the other classes. Since the secondary bonus is not specific, you don't have to feel like you are mis-using your suit's potential for not equipping a specific piece of equipment. Tracking your input here. Also, on a general note just to reiterate clearly all changes are still contingent upon tech evaluation. Method 1 - Requires a check on 4 racial skills Method 2 - Requires stacking of several bonuses on one suit/item Method 3 - Optimal use predicated upon addition of a shield transporter Method 4 - Is a hybrid, see prior methods Both Method 2b & Method 3b fall under their respective primary methods regarding tech. In theory any of them should be viable, but my understanding of the tech side limitations is rudimentary so I could be wrong on any count. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1884	Posted - 2014.10.06 05:35:00 - [736] - Quote I am a fan of method 1, including the 10% reduction to equipment fitting per level, but against the increase in pg/CPU. That puts equipment at the same fitting cost as now, but you also decrease fitting on logistics. Logistics should have an easier time fitting equipment than now, not hae the same tight fittings they do now. I would suggest a 12.5% increase in equipment fottings , along with a 10% reduction per level of logistics, means non-logistics have a tougher time while logistics have an easier time. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4130	Posted - 2014.10.06 14:18:00 - [737] - Quote 2 quick things, Cross: 1) In method 4 the Gallente are listed as having 2 separate bonuses for rep tools. I assume that's a typo. That or I've discovered a Gallente plot to make your logi suit the FoTM again. Sneaky... 2) Either I got confused or you changed the numbering (the former is more likely), but I think method 2b should actually be listed as 1b because method 2 isn't the global bonus. Makes more sense that way. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3121	Posted - 2014.10.06 17:26:00 - [738] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: 2 quick things, Cross: 1) In method 4 the Gallente are listed as having 2 separate bonuses for rep tools. I assume that's a typo. That or I've discovered a Gallente plot to make your logi suit the FoTM again. Sneaky... 2) Either I got confused or you changed the numbering (the former is more likely), but I think method 2b should actually be listed as 1b because method 2 isn't the global bonus. Makes more sense that way. 1) Fixed! Thanks for the heads up. 2) That's the method modification you proposed in this thread. Are the numbers wrong somehow, because I thought I'd simply pasted them directly from your post (but I am operating on just under five hours of sleep so I may be missing something). As to the naming, I'm keeping the current conventions simply because of the chronology tied to when they were introduced as changing it now would alter the context in which a number of posts were made. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3121	Posted - 2014.10.06 17:27:00 - [739] - Quote General note: The alteration to the logistics role bonus is not a part of any method listed. It is proposed in its own right regardless of the racial method selected. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3221	Posted - 2014.10.06 17:51:00 - [740] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Cross, I can get behind method 4, It looks solid and also makes all logi's viable in PC for their reps. I still don't think that RE's are equipment, but Pokey has made some good points about their use. Also leveling out the PG and CPU of each suit is a good idea if they normalize the slot layouts. Honestly I'm not even insistent upon the RE bonus, that's just what personally felt to be the best choice as a replacement bonus. My primary focus is on giving every Logi a bonus to repping, as Cross put, it would be most ideal with the addition of a shield transporter equipment. To explain my point to Logi Bro, the concept for Methods 3 and 4 come straight from EVE, where every Logistics ship has a direct bonus to their tanking type's shield/armor remote remote repper, and then an additional bonus to a Utility Support, which varies based on race. In my opinion, Logistics in general should be hands down the best at providing reps, regardless of race, particularly if we can have proper racial matching with Shield and Armor reps. That being said I think the primary role of Logistics in general should be associated with the reps, but the primary RACIAL role is defined by the primary Utility Support bonus. That's how it works in EVE, and while Dust isn't EVE, I think it's a good example to follow. So, you may not agree, that's fine, just wanted to clarify my logic Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3122	Posted - 2014.10.06 18:08:00 - [741] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: I'll admit I haven't been following this thread very closely, but I have to say I have a very strong dislike for method 3 and 4. By giving every logi a rep tool bonus, you are saying, "your primary role is to sit behind and rep people, that is your purpose, and you aren't fulfilling your maximum potential if you aren't doing so." It's basically dooming every logistics unit to triage, when that isn't even necessarily their purpose. While I am all for the logistics being more than a medic there are also contextual and mechanical aspects in play when proposing bonus options. In this case the simple mechanics of the gear and bonuses played a non-trivial role in that process. I was far less saying "your primary role is X" than "the most effective/used bonus is X so lets share it" Without further restricting the use of equipment by other classes (something which the fittings alteration would have had an impact on but which has been generally opposed to the point where it has been tentatively tabled as part of the first pass) it is hard to meaningfully buff the other gear in an effective manner. Uplink - Current bonus ends when the merc dies (or suit swaps). Net effect being that mobility is more relevant to meaningful uplink placement/use than the racial buff. Further the second part of the racial buff, increased spawns per link, very rarely comes into play at all, most links are destroyed before they burn through their native 20-25 spawns much less start to make any use of the latter half of the racial buff. Nanohives - Like the uplink the current bonus ends when the merc leaves the suit creating situations where killing the logi reduces the value of hives deployed for his squad. While hives are more often fully consumed than links they are still more consistently destroyed by hostiles or abandoned (if squad is mobile) than fully consumed. Further, "supply amount and repair rate per level" AFAIK actually decreases potential WPs earned by causing the hives to do more while warding the same WP (just like the current mechanics for using high end needles). Active Scans - This racial could me modified to effect other traits as well, such as cooldown, to improve its overall utility so there is some room to grow. That being said the active scanner use case is likely to stay somewhat marginal as long as there are more accurate always on 360 degree passive scans being shared team wide. It is hard for the less accurate, smaller scan area, temporary duration, squad only, scans to compete with that.... especially when you have to put away your weapon to use them. "Aggressive" Equipment - I personally consider mining a road, or setting REs to guard an objective panel valid support actions but use of such things is hardly a primary use case and even providing it as a secondary bonus as proposed in one version of method 3, has met with resistance so the room to grow here is limited. Injectors - These also fall directly into "your role is medic" style thinking, and furthermore with 100% needles already on the market as is there really aren't options to add a racial buff here. That brings us back around once again to the repair tool, part of the reason it is effective and popular is that it is one of the pieces of equipment which does not currently have either A) another role doing its same job better (scanner) or B) another class able to use it to greater or equal effect as the logi (links, hives, needles, REs, Proxy). Although it does still suffer from the common bane of the equipment line which is C) better functioning equipment *reduces* the potential WP earned, this applies frequently to both higher meta gear as well as bonuses to gear. I am, of course, quite open to additional ideas and suggestions. Any any of the methods would be a buff and in that sense an improvement, but in the current context methods 1, 2, 2b all fall prey to the same limitation, that being that they'd increase the use a player can get out of their logi suit if they already run one throughout the battle (so still a buff) but provide only minor added incentive to be in one throughout and it is unlikely those changes would make most logi races considered viable in optimal balance/high level competitive play. Meanwhile methods 3, 3b, 4, rely to one degree or another on inclusion of a shield transporter, focus logi more on reps than is currently true, and include the buff to RE/Proxy use which some have objected to. So every method has shortfalls, but all methods have to cope with the fundamental flaws in the equipment line as a whole, and how it scales WP earnings as well. None of which is to say anyone should abandon their POV, I am simply stating relevant factors the apply to the situation (and as such have fed/will advise) proposals going forward. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3420	Posted - 2014.10.06 18:15:00 - [742] - Quote in order for your proposed equipment changes to work you have to have the gear be universally recognized as the same thing: Which means you have to have a militia uplink = templar uplink = proto uplink as far as the game is concerned. a lot of the uplink spam is caused by suits with 3-4 different classes of uplinks and dropping two of each of them. So it needs to treat ALL uplinks as the same item to prevent that mass spam cluster. Same with hives and any other deployable. otherwise no solution will be had. I like the 1 uplink = 1 spawn idea best.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4131	Posted - 2014.10.06 18:16:00 - [743] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: 2 quick things, Cross: 1) In method 4 the Gallente are listed as having 2 separate bonuses for rep tools. I assume that's a typo. That or I've discovered a Gallente plot to make your logi suit the FoTM again. Sneaky... 2) Either I got confused or you changed the numbering (the former is more likely), but I think method 2b should actually be listed as 1b because method 2 isn't the global bonus. Makes more sense that way. 1) Fixed! Thanks for the heads up. 2) That's the method modification you proposed in this thread. Are the numbers wrong somehow, because I thought I'd simply pasted them directly from your post (but I am operating on just under five hours of sleep so I may be missing something). As to the naming, I'm keeping the current conventions simply because of the chronology tied to when they were introduced as changing it now would alter the context in which a number of posts were made. The most recent iteration I proposed in this thread is correctly listed under "2b" on your revised spreadsheet. However, while neither Method 1 or 2 (2a) exactly matches my orignal proposal (incidentally I have updated that thread to include 2b), Method 1 is closer, as method 2 provides bonuses to only 3 of the 4 major equipment types and is also not a flat bonus across races (e.g., Gallente gets a better bonus to rep tools than Amarr). My point was that since method 2a was not mine, it wouldn't necessarily make sense for my new proposal to be called 2b, and that 1b might be more appropriate. I guess since method 1 is not exaclty what I proposed either, maybe it doesn't matter and I'm just nitpicking. No biggie. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 207	Posted - 2014.10.06 18:20:00 - [744] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: in order for your proposed equipment changes to work you have to have the gear be universally recognized as the same thing: Which means you have to have a militia uplink = templar uplink = proto uplink as far as the game is concerned. a lot of the uplink spam is caused by suits with 3-4 different classes of uplinks and dropping two of each of them. So it needs to treat ALL uplinks as the same item to prevent that mass spam cluster. Same with hives and any other deployable. otherwise no solution will be had. I like the 1 uplink = 1 spawn idea best. Lay off the uplinks, if you nerf uplinks to 1 spawn people might stop using them and then game is over, no more.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 207	Posted - 2014.10.06 18:22:00 - [745] - Quote Stop balancing around people that spam, theyll find a way to spam no matter what. Unless you come up with a real solution that wont nerf everyone else.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3122	Posted - 2014.10.06 18:25:00 - [746] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: in order for your proposed equipment changes to work you have to have the gear be universally recognized as the same thing: Which means you have to have a militia uplink = templar uplink = proto uplink as far as the game is concerned. a lot of the uplink spam is caused by suits with 3-4 different classes of uplinks and dropping two of each of them. So it needs to treat ALL uplinks as the same item to prevent that mass spam cluster. Same with hives and any other deployable. otherwise no solution will be had. I like the 1 uplink = 1 spawn idea best. I disagree. Granted it is a matter of degrees certainly but it is not an all or nothing proposition. There are things (some of them suggested in the proposal) which can moderate the number of deployed assets on the field, and how long they are present, and how likely players are to focus on deploying them, without hard coding a limit on deployables as you describe. The other aspect worth noting is that hard coding a limit as you've outlined would do nothing to improve the logistics use case for any of those items or limit the use case of those items for roles outside of logistics which is a net soft nerf to the value of multiple equipment slots (yes a slight one, but still a further constraint in a situation where logistics suits are already underperforming their role). Regarding the 1 link = 1 spawn method. Conceptually this is what I supported initially as well, however there were some technical/resource management issues brought to light when I presented the idea to CCP for tech eval which was a key reason the spawns per link were pushed up to 5. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4132	Posted - 2014.10.06 18:28:00 - [747] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Stop balancing around people that spam, theyll find a way to spam no matter what. Unless you come up with a real solution that wont nerf everyone else. I agree in that I despise the proposed "spawn grenade" mechanic, but some steps should probably be taken, at the very least to try and restrict use to logi's. Spam is a tough one to tackle via hotifx, unfortunately. (If you could just get people off the "spam=lag" bandwagon that might be helpful, that longstanding misperception drives a lot of displaced logi hate.) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3122	Posted - 2014.10.06 18:40:00 - [748] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Cross Atu wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: 2 quick things, Cross: 1) In method 4 the Gallente are listed as having 2 separate bonuses for rep tools. I assume that's a typo. That or I've discovered a Gallente plot to make your logi suit the FoTM again. Sneaky... 2) Either I got confused or you changed the numbering (the former is more likely), but I think method 2b should actually be listed as 1b because method 2 isn't the global bonus. Makes more sense that way. 1) Fixed! Thanks for the heads up. 2) That's the method modification you proposed in this thread. Are the numbers wrong somehow, because I thought I'd simply pasted them directly from your post (but I am operating on just under five hours of sleep so I may be missing something). As to the naming, I'm keeping the current conventions simply because of the chronology tied to when they were introduced as changing it now would alter the context in which a number of posts were made. The most recent iteration I proposed in this thread is correctly listed under "2b" on your revised spreadsheet. (EDIT: Scratch that. On further review of 2b on your spreadsheet the Caldari have the scanner bonus listed twice instead of the bonus to rep tool range. Otherwise looks OK.) However, while neither Method 1 or 2 (2a) exactly matches my orignal proposal (incidentally I have updated that thread to include 2b), Method 1 is closer, as method 2 provides bonuses to only 3 of the 4 major equipment types and is also not a flat bonus across races (e.g., Gallente gets a better bonus to rep tools than Amarr). My point was that since method 2a was not mine, it wouldn't necessarily make sense for my new proposal to be called 2b, and that 1b might be more appropriate. I guess since method 1 is not exaclty what I proposed either, maybe it doesn't matter and I'm just nitpicking. No biggie. Good catch, now fixed! Also, I see what you mean, I wasn't considering the baseline of your other thread/linked proposal. I'll keep the nomenclature the same for now but bear it in mind if a full iteration 3 document is called for. Thanks for all your input here o7 Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3122	Posted - 2014.10.06 18:45:00 - [749] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: (If you could just get people off the "spam=lag" bandwagon that might be helpful, that longstanding misperception drives a lot of displaced logi hate.) Totally agreed and as such I will reiterate here yet again, just so it is in another place on the forums, that I have actively tested the notion that deployed equipment creates substantive lag and have been unable to reproduce the effect during my tests. Further I have encountered my most sever cases of lag (in Pubs/FW) during games with hardly any (or even no) equipment present on field prior to/during the onset of lag. In PC matches I have encountered intense lag in situations both with and without substantial deployed equipment present and have seen no meaningful trend or corollary within that context. It could be that for some reason my particular playstation 3 is just immune to the purported lag caused by deployed equipment, but that is highly implausible. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1890	Posted - 2014.10.06 18:46:00 - [750] - Quote So now that we are solidifying some ideas, we need to get some input from a dev once a complete (notionally) set of proposals is made. 37 pages of discussion, we should have some pretty solid ideas, and judging from the spreadsheets Cross and others have worked so hard on, I think we need to hear what Rattati thinks of these ideas. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3420	Posted - 2014.10.06 18:57:00 - [751] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: (If you could just get people off the "spam=lag" bandwagon that might be helpful, that longstanding misperception drives a lot of displaced logi hate.) Totally agreed and as such I will reiterate here yet again, just so it is in another place on the forums, that I have actively tested the notion that deployed equipment creates substantive lag and have been unable to reproduce the effect during my tests. Further I have encountered my most sever cases of lag (in Pubs/FW) during games with hardly any (or even no) equipment present on field prior to/during the onset of lag. In PC matches I have encountered intense lag in situations both with and without substantial deployed equipment present and have seen no meaningful trend or corollary within that context. It could be that for some reason my particular playstation 3 is just immune to the purported lag caused by deployed equipment, but that is highly implausible. 0.02 ISK Cross i just hate the spam because it allows teams to simply lemming the defenders to death in certain maps (orbital artillery, Gallente lab) as a substitute for tactical movements and actually breaching an area. Oh look the entire enemy team spawned with rail rifles in the gantries, how charming... oh i was wrong. there's the scouts right on schedule with the shotguns.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3221	Posted - 2014.10.06 19:12:00 - [752] - Quote Personally I think the real pressing matter in terms of spam is more so that while you can't equip 2 of the same uplink type, the game still allows you to equip different types of uplinks on the same fit. If they went as far as to restrict multiples of the same, then the ability to equip different types is simply a workaround exploit that never got fixed. It's that ability to carry so many types at once that leads to the spam, and I think that's the pressing issue at hand. Fix that exploit, and you fix the spam. On the other hand, I'm all in favor of making uplinks/hives more granular, but not so much as to make the mechanic annoyingly bulky. 1 Uplink = 1 Spawn is a little annoying, so a happy medium is in order. I'm also a fan of making Hives more granular so I leave less clusters behind because not all of them got used. That being said however, be careful in that a hives max clusters do not drop below that which is required for the largest consumption of clusters, which is grenades. If the intention is for grenades to remain renewable from hives, the minimum amount of clusters cannot fall below the amount needed to resupply 1 grenade, wherever those values may land. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3122	Posted - 2014.10.06 20:12:00 - [753] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: So now that we are solidifying some ideas, we need to get some input from a dev once a complete (notionally) set of proposals is made. 37 pages of discussion, we should have some pretty solid ideas, and judging from the spreadsheets Cross and others have worked so hard on, I think we need to hear what Rattati thinks of these ideas. Both Rattati and LogiBro have been linked this thread as well as each iteration of the proposals as the discussion has gone on. Currently I am awaiting word on some of the tech feasibility of these ideas which may further focus our discussion if certain options are taken off the table after that information comes back (if we can't do a thing, we can focus elsewhere). Rest assured I will continue to keep CCP in the loop. When the time comes for a full on hotfix proposal to be made and discussed I'm sure CCP Rattati will create an Echo (or Foxtrot) thread for that. Until then we have this one Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1891	Posted - 2014.10.06 20:18:00 - [754] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: So now that we are solidifying some ideas, we need to get some input from a dev once a complete (notionally) set of proposals is made. 37 pages of discussion, we should have some pretty solid ideas, and judging from the spreadsheets Cross and others have worked so hard on, I think we need to hear what Rattati thinks of these ideas. Both Rattati and LogiBro have been linked this thread as well as each iteration of the proposals as the discussion has gone on. Currently I am awaiting word on some of the tech feasibility of these ideas which may further focus our discussion if certain options are taken off the table after that information comes back (if we can't do a thing, we can focus elsewhere). Rest assured I will continue to keep CCP in the loop. When the time comes for a full on hotfix proposal to be made and discussed I'm sure CCP Rattati will create an Echo (or Foxtrot) thread for that. Until then we have this one Cheers, Cross Tech feasibility would be a great start. Man, solid well thought out community discussion may make it into the game. Consternation, uproar! Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 871	Posted - 2014.10.06 21:05:00 - [755] - Quote Updating my vote from Method 2, to Method 2b. The big 4 should be best in a Logi's hands. Also, thoughts on swapping the Min Logi's Shield and Armor HP values? 160 Shield, 120 Armor? Stats would align more closely with the other Min suits. Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3125	Posted - 2014.10.06 21:19:00 - [756] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Updating my vote from Method 2, to Method 2b. The big 4 should be best in a Logi's hands. Also, thoughts on swapping the Min Logi's Shield and Armor HP values? 160 Shield, 120 Armor? Stats would align more closely with the other Min suits. Seems sensible to me on first blush, anyone have reasons to raise why moderating the Min Logi profile to fit with the rest of the Min suits would be a poor change? See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3424	Posted - 2014.10.06 21:26:00 - [757] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Updating my vote from Method 2, to Method 2b. The big 4 should be best in a Logi's hands. Also, thoughts on swapping the Min Logi's Shield and Armor HP values? 160 Shield, 120 Armor? Stats would align more closely with the other Min suits. Seems sensible to me on first blush, anyone have reasons to raise why moderating the Min Logi profile to fit with the rest of the Min suits would be a poor change? there really isn't a rational argument other than aesthetic value or some random jerkey liking it better that way.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1896	Posted - 2014.10.06 21:37:00 - [758] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Updating my vote from Method 2, to Method 2b. The big 4 should be best in a Logi's hands. Also, thoughts on swapping the Min Logi's Shield and Armor HP values? 160 Shield, 120 Armor? Stats would align more closely with the other Min suits. Seems sensible to me on first blush, anyone have reasons to raise why moderating the Min Logi profile to fit with the rest of the Min suits would be a poor change? Lore wise, minmatar are dual tankers. Not in the sense of they use shields and armor at the same time, but rather that some ships are meant to use shield, and others are meant to use armor. In Dust, I would say suits designed for front line combat (assault, sentinel) should benarmor tankers, and those meant for other roles (scout) should be shield based. MinLogi, depending on how we intend it to be used (in the thick of battle, or in the rear) and should base its shields/armor off that. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 872	Posted - 2014.10.06 21:54:00 - [759] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Updating my vote from Method 2, to Method 2b. The big 4 should be best in a Logi's hands. Also, thoughts on swapping the Min Logi's Shield and Armor HP values? 160 Shield, 120 Armor? Stats would align more closely with the other Min suits. Seems sensible to me on first blush, anyone have reasons to raise why moderating the Min Logi profile to fit with the rest of the Min suits would be a poor change? Lore wise, minmatar are dual tankers. Not in the sense of they use shields and armor at the same time, but rather that some ships are meant to use shield, and others are meant to use armor. In Dust, I would say suits designed for front line combat (assault, sentinel) should benarmor tankers, and those meant for other roles (scout) should be shield based. MinLogi, depending on how we intend it to be used (in the thick of battle, or in the rear) and should base its shields/armor off that. That makes sense as well. Only the Min Sentinel and Min Logi favor armor currently. If those two suits are supposed to favor armor over shields, then how about keeping the armor and shield HP values, but swapping the amount buffed? 30HP to shields, and 10HP to armor. 120, and 160 respectively. Still favors armor, but also a bit more survivable. Puts it back to its Chrome values +10 armor. Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3130	Posted - 2014.10.06 23:11:00 - [760] - Quote Speaking of Lore and Minmatar (as kind of a sidebar) here's the ingame lore for the repair tool In game info panel wrote: The repair tool has several design innovations, the most surprising probably being the incorporation of Amarr focusing crystal technology. Beyond that, the device also makes use of an advanced K7 nano static co-processor on par with Caldari planet side missile tracking systems and a 55x5 reverse current power cell configuration rarely used beyond self-sustaining Gallente drone units. The result is an elegant tool combining technology from several very different design philosophies. Again, I think mechanics a play quality trump lore, but as far as lore is concerned there is no reason why every race should not have a repair tool bonus for their logi just mentioning this since lore was raised as one of the concerns with that idea. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3223	Posted - 2014.10.07 03:12:00 - [761] - Quote mmmmm Scimitar.... Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3141	Posted - 2014.10.07 07:04:00 - [762] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: This is the most balance I've seen in a while from this game but there's no reason to stop now. This thread will be about the ways we can bring Logistics suits up to par and because I know we all hate long, bombastic, pompous speech I'll keep this post short, simple and to the point. Like any Red Blooded Gallente would. Slot Layout Adjustment: Logistics need to have the same slot layouts though each tier as their Assault Counterpart. Logistics suits currently have an odd slot layout that makes most Standard Logistics useless and disproportionate to higher progression. ____________________ Equipment and Modules: Besides the fact that Codebreakers need to be in highslots there's no reason they should take up the amount of PG that they do, they shouldn't take PG in the first place just like the Precision Modules, it just doesn't make sense and deters fitting modules of the like and just using it for more HP. Especially when a complex codebreaker cost more resources than some of your Complex Armor repairs and plates. It's just bad design. Active Scanners: There needs to be more variants of active scanners. Some of them offer trivial bonuses to them from the basic variant so I propose Active Scanners come in three base types: One that scans a long range but short scan angle one that has a wide angle but short range and one that's in between. With all the variants that would be within each one of course. There also needs to be more WP earned from having a squadmate kill a target you've scanned. Overall Logistics Bonus to all Equipment respectively: There needs to be more incentive to use equipment on Logistics suits on not be stuck with just one bonus. That's bland and does not separate you from the other classes that could easily do the same. I recommend a bonus for all equipment when using Logistics. Not the same exact bonus but it would be based off the races relation with said equipment. Example A: Caldari would get a bonus to repair tool range whilst Gallente get a Bonus to Repair tool amount. Meanwhile Amarr still gets a bonus to the repair tool but due to the nature of the repair tool, it's going to have the least effective bonus to the Repair tool going towards repair rate. Of course Minmatar gets the best bonus to the Repair tool for obvious reasons. Example B: Amarr gets a bonus to Nanohive Nanite amount and repair Rate per level whilst Minmatar get a bonus to Ammo Resupply Rate and Nanite Amount per level. The gallente would get a small bonus to Repair amount per level and that's it and of course the Caldari would get the best bonus to the Nanohive overall. I could go more into detail with which suit should get which bonus but that's a conversation for a different day...if this even happens at all so I will be moving on. I Hope that was easy to understand. _____________________ Base Logistics Stats: Innate Logistics Repair rates need to be reintroduced at a base of 1hp/s yes it's not much but it means a lot for Logistics shield suits that don't want to waste a low for a basic reactive plate. Either Faster Movement and Walking Speed or more Health: Logistics should have some drawbacks when it comes to speed and health but right now I think it's a little bit much to have both stats lowered. I know it would take more work so it probably wouldn't be welcomed but I'd like it if the Amarr and Caldari Logistics got a small Armor and shield buff respectively while Gallente and Minmatar received the speed buff. Thank you for your time and hopefully constructive feedback follows. o7 Quoted for discussion here. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7818	Posted - 2014.10.07 07:32:00 - [763] - Quote So this is why that thread started gettings notifications out of nowhere. See you space cowboy...
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 31	Posted - 2014.10.08 14:11:00 - [764] - Quote Cross, Any chance of getting price reductions on equipment? with the increase of damage by almost all weapons how about an equal repair tool increase? Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 350	Posted - 2014.10.08 23:09:00 - [765] - Quote Awesome, I'm not too late to add my input. Appy-Polly-Loggy on my absence, I've been moving so unable to play/comment tho I have been following the reading intermittently. That said, Thank You, Cross Atu, for your continued diligence in furthering the Logistics class. My immediate takeaways from the last 15 pages and the updated theorysheet are as follows: 1. Did Meee One get banned again? Where are you, dude? 2. HP buff, check. Regen re-allowed, check. Movement speed, absent? Is this a "pick 2 out of 3" scenario? Movement speed buffing ( both sprinting and walking) is paramount to survival. I like the stamina increases but someone else said it best when they said, better to go there fast than be able to farther, slower. We NEED movement increases, even if its just to our walking speeds and not sprint. 3. Theres 4 or 5 pages of Scout input (welcome input, btw) that presented a couple fallacy situations/counterarguements to sheet proposals. One was the idea that if Logis get hp/regen/speed buffed we would suddenly be "competitive" vs Assaults, ie Who would win between 6 Logis vs. 6 Assaults. The flaw in this as reasoning to not buff Logis is that even if we were to be buffed to identical hp/regen/speed levels we (Logis) would still be at a significant disadvantage by virtue of the Assault frames having weapon bonuses ( they shoot faster, more powerfully and with reduced drawbacks like cooldown than we do) AND the fact most of us don't have sidearms! The Amarr Logi, our sidearmed bretheren, pays for his sidearm in speed and fitting. So this whole, " OhNoesSlayerLogis!" argument is just a waste of space. The other premise set forth, regarding the equipment fitting changes proposed, used an example FC determining the need for an uplink and presented the Scout frame as having, "the best odds" of delivering said link. That Scouts have "the best odds" of delivering a link is EXACTLY THE SYMPTOM OF THE PROBLEM with Logistics frames. Uplink deployment, anywhere on a map, at any time during a battle, is a LOGISTICAL question whose answer overwhelmingly should be utilisation of a LOGISTICAL FRAME. The situations/conditions where a Scout frame is the first choice should be the outlier, NOT the average. And if a Scout is used, that he places a crappy, low count, slow uplink he'll need to guard until an ACTUAL Logi can spawn and bring the goods in on, should really be how that scenario plays out. 4. Cross Atu wrote: ... if under the current status of the game those support needs can be readily met without the presence of a logistics frame in squad what incentives can make said frame of adequate value to field? This I see as the basis for the fitting changes to equipment (CPU/PG) and I don't think I could agree more with the proposed results. That Logis are able to fit the gear others can't or won't is FINE. That Scouts can't cloak AND link/scan/hiv/re outside of STD is FINE. I think the boost to our fitting AND reduced fitting ability to other frames is absolutley the right direction for this class and gameplay overall. Will I HATE not toting my Allotek rep hives on my adv commando? Fuckyes. Will I adapt and figure another, maybe better way? Fuckyes again. The only caveat I have to the proposed equipment fitting idea as-is has to do with the nanite-cluster counts, these should probably be increased across the board so stationary unit emplacements (such as snipers or AV) can have reasonable use of hives (theirs or Logi provided) before needing replenishment. 1 hiv=1 swarm or locus grenade is NOT acceptable. Maybe a buff to the Compact Hive (already determined to be outside the current changes) could be done to better help the useful equipment access for non-logi frames. Maybe, a "Compact Standard" could be created across ALL the equipment types, providing a proto-esque type of functionality yet easily fittable by most suits. 5. The Active Scanners vs. Passive Scans thing, I... don't understand. First, I am pro-shared squad scans. And I very often fit, especially in PCs, a combination of Precision Enhancers and Range Amps. My experience is definitely that my passive stacks DO NOT outweigh the effect of my fellow bro with an active scanner. First is, he has range. Even with 3 amps I'm only lighting up 30-40 meters. That distance is about 3-4 seconds of display on the tacnet of any running frame (except a heavy) before they are literally on my location. Second is that the Active Scanner scans a set profile, whereas my PrecEnh stacks are enhancing from my suits base profile! On my Scout or Logi, its not bad. On my Commando, it sucks. 6. Amarr Logis should keep their sidearms, the conversation touched on this topic a couple pages back. I guess there's a "normalizing" initiative on this (ie HOMOGENIZING) but its worth remembering that Amarr Logis gave up an equipment slot AND a module slot as well as became slow as sht in exchange for what was once termed, "The Distinguishing Feature" of this frame. Do not rob this suit of its identity and field effectiveness. 7. There was also a brief bit regarding the RE deployment and activation delay (first deploy->triggertime). I would like to request (since we're adjusting them) some analysis of not just RE timing increases, but also PE decreases*. I don't know specifically how long the delay is for ProxMines to become active but I do know it's way too long, I have beenrun over several times by vehicles driving through the pathway I've just mined anticipating their route with my PEs not activating, me dying and the vehicles continuing with no damage taken. Character limit reached, continued next post Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 351	Posted - 2014.10.08 23:34:00 - [766] - Quote 8. All in all I like a lot of what I see and think the spreadsheet values are a great starting point. The biggest negative I find is with the absence of ANY sort of Movement buffing, buffing which I feel is critical 3rd corner to Logi survivability/effectiveness. I also notice the Logi being a DSCommand 5 idea is not included, I get it. People want to play but not pay (trollollolol me XD) whatever, they'll get what they earn. I also have to reaffirm my position that Scouts MUST go 1 equipment slot to balance not just their effect on us, Logistics, and our role but the greater game as a whole. Scouts are Reconnaisance units, Cloaking has proved it's effectiveness and utility as its own stealth discipline, why do Logis lose the bonus to cloaking but Scouts keep the bonus (in carrying multiple types) to equipment? This makes no sense. Insofar as the equipment bonus tables go, I'm a fan of methods 1 and 2, in that order. I'm not sure about this "shield transporter" stuff and if thats a maybe Soon (tm) sort of thing I don't think having the tables account for that is a worthwhile venture. We're for existing Support play, to adjust existing paramaters, hypothetical ventures really shouldn't be a part of this. Which isn't saying I'm anti-shield transporters or bonuses for them, but since they don't exist and nobody here has actually played any significant number of games with them they're to great a variable to plan for. If they are confirmed and guaranteed, I like the idea of them as the "universal" bonus type, across all races more so than the rep tool. All in all good stuff, Cross Atu et al. We may actually forge a worthwhile and combat support effective Logistics class yet! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4150	Posted - 2014.10.08 23:34:00 - [767] - Quote Nothing personal, but I'm ok with meee one being out of this, the grown ups need to make some possibly far reaching decisions here (as far reaching as things can be in dust) and objectivity is crucial. Anyway, I most agree with what you said above, with the exception that, believe it or not, I see a very valid role for scouts in placing uplinks. Shotty and I have had some debates about this and I think have come to a pretty good place. Right now the main issue with scouts (and this is my opinion, not going to suggest that shotty concurs) is that they play far too prominent a role in frontline combat, when they really should be masters of flanking maneuvers and deep strikes. Drop uplinks can play a vital role in that. Oh, and I'm not totally sold on shared PASSIVE scans. Active obviously yes, but shared squad ~~wall hacks~~ scans is too powerful in its current form. If it was dependent on distance from the scanning player, or, better still, radar/ping-based instead of right in your LOS complete with directional arrows that would be different. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 351	Posted - 2014.10.08 23:59:00 - [768] - Quote Cool, I was wondering where he was since he so clearly made his passion obvious and, really, his "raising of the alarm" regarding the inital proposed speed nerfs was the wake-up (for me at least) that initiated the thread awareness. Its just weird he's silent, but w/e, Life Happens. I do see a valid role in scouts placing uplinks. I see a valid role in ALL suits placing uplinks. But, as a specialty? As the deployment first pick? Thats where I see an issue. Send a scout to recon/clear. Send a Logi to link. OR if the Scout is linking, yeah, its a slow link he'll have to cover until the Logi spawns and can fully utilize the locale. Passive scans aren't wallhacks, bro. Not even close. They are absolutley dependent on the scanning players' distance, not just for the scan but for the reception too. When I stack my Amps up, I'm only expanding my circle of detection. My heavy, next to me, he'll see what I detect on his tacnet because positionally our tacnets overlap. Our Scout, running our flank 40 meters out, does not see what I detect because he's too far away. If I'm separated from my squad, only I see what I detect, until I'm close enough for the net to overlap again, then it's shared. Also, don't forget that passive detection is also limited by the db profile of the scanning suit, PrecEnh mods drop the detection % from the suits base, which was why passive stacks work OK (just ok too, not great) with my Scout or Logi but suck on my Commando since the Commando frame initial profile base is too high to make PrecEnh worthwhile relative to 99% of the other battlefield circumstances. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3177	Posted - 2014.10.09 00:18:00 - [769] - Quote @el OPERATOR, before I dig too deeply into your feedback, let me make sure that you have read Iteration 2 of the document, because some changes were made and from the sounds of your post you may have been reading doc 1 or you may think the changes were in the wrong direction/not far enough and I would rather know for sure rather than assume. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3177	Posted - 2014.10.09 00:23:00 - [770] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Cross, Any chance of getting price reductions on equipment? with the increase of damage by almost all weapons how about an equal repair tool increase? An adjustment to equipment ISK cost was to run in tandem with the change in fittings costs. While I still view a cost adjustment as a good thing it is currently tabled with the fittings adjustment until some more data is acquired so as to avoid overbalancing/changing too much at once. As to the rep tool I had not considered the power creep of weapons in this context but it should likely be normlized to a higher base... the drawback of course being that unless/until we earn WP from actual HP healed rather than 'rep cycles run' any increase in function of the rep tool is also a nerf to earnings, but since that is its own problem with the need for a fix I'm inclined to just roll with it and get the rep numbers improved... (honestly I still have a taste for the grown up version of reps seen by our sky clad counterparts in EVE, but that idea may be seen as too radical ). See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3177	Posted - 2014.10.09 00:28:00 - [771] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Cool, I was wondering where he was since he so clearly made his passion obvious and, really, his "raising of the alarm" regarding the inital proposed speed nerfs was the wake-up (for me at least) that initiated the thread awareness. Its just weird he's silent, but w/e, Life Happens. Speed nerfs? What speed nerfs? Or are we talking way back in the day? el OPERATOR wrote: I do see a valid role in scouts placing uplinks. I see a valid role in ALL suits placing uplinks. But, as a specialty? As the deployment first pick? Thats where I see an issue. Send a scout to recon/clear. Send a Logi to link. OR if the Scout is linking, yeah, its a slow link he'll have to cover until the Logi spawns and can fully utilize the locale. Passive scans aren't wallhacks, bro. Not even close. They are absolutley dependent on the scanning players' distance, not just for the scan but for the reception too. When I stack my Amps up, I'm only expanding my circle of detection. My heavy, next to me, he'll see what I detect on his tacnet because positionally our tacnets overlap. Our Scout, running our flank 40 meters out, does not see what I detect because he's too far away. If I'm separated from my squad, only I see what I detect, until I'm close enough for the net to overlap again, then it's shared. Also, don't forget that passive detection is also limited by the db profile of the scanning suit, PrecEnh mods drop the detection % from the suits base, which was why passive stacks work OK (just ok too, not great) with my Scout or Logi but suck on my Commando since the Commando frame initial profile base is too high to make PrecEnh worthwhile relative to 99% of the other battlefield circumstances. There's no real intent to touch high or low slot mods within this proposal, just to be clear. That having been said, since you mentioned both PC and Active Scans, how often do you have a dedicated GalLogi on the ground running active scans throughout an full PC match? I know differing players and corps play differently so an additional angle of input is of interest to me. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 352	Posted - 2014.10.09 02:13:00 - [772] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: @el OPERATOR, before I dig too deeply into your feedback, let me make sure that you have read Iteration 2 of the document, because some changes were made and from the sounds of your post you may have been reading doc 1 or you may think the changes were in the wrong direction/not far enough and I would rather know for sure rather than assume. Cheers, Cross You are correct, I absolutely drafted from the initial document. I take back everything good I said about the sheet! XD brb with an amended eval. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 352	Posted - 2014.10.09 02:22:00 - [773] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Cool, I was wondering where he was since he so clearly made his passion obvious and, really, his "raising of the alarm" regarding the inital proposed speed nerfs was the wake-up (for me at least) that initiated the thread awareness. Its just weird he's silent, but w/e, Life Happens. Speed nerfs? What speed nerfs? Or are we talking way back in the day? The proposed speed nerfs that were a part of the HFDelta preliminary stat release. " Back in the day" like 2 months ago. el OPERATOR wrote: I do see a valid role in scouts placing uplinks. I see a valid role in ALL suits placing uplinks. But, as a specialty? As the deployment first pick? Thats where I see an issue. Send a scout to recon/clear. Send a Logi to link. OR if the Scout is linking, yeah, its a slow link he'll have to cover until the Logi spawns and can fully utilize the locale. Passive scans aren't wallhacks, bro. Not even close. They are absolutley dependent on the scanning players' distance, not just for the scan but for the reception too. When I stack my Amps up, I'm only expanding my circle of detection. My heavy, next to me, he'll see what I detect on his tacnet because positionally our tacnets overlap. Our Scout, running our flank 40 meters out, does not see what I detect because he's too far away. If I'm separated from my squad, only I see what I detect, until I'm close enough for the net to overlap again, then it's shared. Also, don't forget that passive detection is also limited by the db profile of the scanning suit, PrecEnh mods drop the detection % from the suits base, which was why passive stacks work OK (just ok too, not great) with my Scout or Logi but suck on my Commando since the Commando frame initial profile base is too high to make PrecEnh worthwhile relative to 99% of the other battlefield circumstances. There's no real intent to touch high or low slot mods within this proposal, just to be clear. That having been said, since you mentioned both PC and Active Scans, how often do you have a dedicated GalLogi on the ground running active scans throughout an full PC match? I know differing players and corps play differently so an additional angle of input is of interest to me. This response was more toward JDemonsbane (teach me not to quote ppl) and his response to my feedback. Several of my CorpMates have Gallogis, and we do deploy them in our PCs. Whether or not they're working that scanner the whole match really depends on conditions, but we do have them and use them. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 352	Posted - 2014.10.09 02:44:00 - [774] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: @el OPERATOR, before I dig too deeply into your feedback, let me make sure that you have read Iteration 2 of the document, because some changes were made and from the sounds of your post you may have been reading doc 1 or you may think the changes were in the wrong direction/not far enough and I would rather know for sure rather than assume. Cheers, Cross We're good, I see movement is in and while I think the value could be better, whats there is a good start. Sprint buff would be nice, between Assault and Scout is the proper general litmus I think. Other than that, most of rest is developing nicely, I'm still on TeamMethod1 tho I can play on TeamMethod2b. Hell, top either of those with the RE/PE carry bonus (all logis, same values) and I think we'd really see the Logistical potential of the suit realized. Hit it, Cross! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4153	Posted - 2014.10.09 02:51:00 - [775] - Quote We will have to agree to disagree about the wall hacks. Funkmaster Whale made a nice thread about it a month or two ago. The argument on the current form of passive scans is this: Scenario 1: You can see the opponent as a dot on your radar when your precision beats theirs = ewar Scenario 2: You can see: - the opponent on your radar when your precision beats theirs - the opponent on your radar when someone else's precision beats theirs, even if yours does not - the opponent when they are on someone else's radar, even if out of range of your own - which way they are facing, in real time - the opponent right in front of your eyes, without having to look at your radar, just right there where you can put a crosshair on them and everything as they turn the corner... = lolwallhax (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 352	Posted - 2014.10.09 02:54:00 - [776] - Quote Bring the fitting bonus and upward cost adjustment back. Its a great idea for revitalizing and reinforcing the Support class and role but one that really needs to have both parts. Especially with the greater re-write of deployable equipment parameters. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 352	Posted - 2014.10.09 03:04:00 - [777] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: We will have to agree to disagree about the wall hacks. Funkmaster Whale made a nice thread about it a month or two ago. The argument on the current form of passive scans is this: Scenario 1: You can see the opponent as a dot on your radar when your precision beats theirs = ewar Scenario 2: Also EWAR You can see: - the opponent on your radar when your precision beats theirs - the opponent on your radar when someone else's precision beats theirs, even if yours does not So long as you are squadded together AND your radar overlaps with your teammates - the opponent when they are on someone else's radar, even if out of range of your own I'm going to assume you mean the chevron, which without a range indicator is useless. If you mean on the radar, reference the overlap element^ - which way they are facing, in real time You get this for anyone on tacnet, has nothing to do w/"sharing" - the opponent right in front of your eyes, without having to look at your radar, just right there where you can put a crosshair on them and everything as they turn the corner... Dude. If they're that close, thats not wallhax. Thats EWAR. Get Some, its, like, the future and stuff... = lolnothax Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5578	Posted - 2014.10.09 03:20:00 - [778] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: We will have to agree to disagree about the wall hacks. Funkmaster Whale made a nice thread about it a month or two ago. The argument on the current form of passive scans is this: Scenario 1: You can see the opponent as a dot on your radar when your precision beats theirs = ewar Scenario 2: You can see: - the opponent on your radar when your precision beats theirs - the opponent on your radar when someone else's precision beats theirs, even if yours does not - the opponent when they are on someone else's radar, even if out of range of your own - which way they are facing, in real time - the opponent right in front of your eyes, without having to look at your radar, just right there where you can put a crosshair on them and everything as they turn the corner... = lolwallhax [Hate to chime in after saying I wouldn't, but this is a tangent ] I agree with John's assessment; scans are too good in their present form. Technically, Shared Squad Passives aren't supposed to exist. They were disabled in Uprising 1.4 (see patch notes) yet here we are, still sharing squad passives. Rattati recognized the issue and looked into it, but he reported that the situation proved more involved than he'd expected. We took his report to mean that disabling shared squad sight would require a client-side update. Just in case we get a client-side update, EWAR model tweaks were spitballed in the Barbershop; one of the ideas seems to address a few of John's concerns above ... the premise is as follows: * Shared Passives Disabled * If Profile beats Precision, target's position in concealed (presently observed) * If Precision beats or equals Profile, target's position only is revealed * If Precision substantially beats Profile, target's position and orientation are revealed * If Active Scanner beats Profile, target's position and orientation are revealed to entire squad (presently observed) Good stuff, right? You wouldn't believe the source :-) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 352	Posted - 2014.10.09 04:29:00 - [779] - Quote I remember the disabling of shared passives last year, but that was for team sharing because the visible chevron element was too much for some people. Without a range indicator, the screen being occupied by 16 floating indicators was considered cluttered. Squad datapooling should be a basic element of gameplay in this setting, as it is now. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4154	Posted - 2014.10.09 11:14:00 - [780] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: We will have to agree to disagree about the wall hacks. Funkmaster Whale made a nice thread about it a month or two ago. The argument on the current form of passive scans is this: Scenario 1: You can see the opponent as a dot on your radar when your precision beats theirs = ewar Scenario 2: You can see: - the opponent on your radar when your precision beats theirs - the opponent on your radar when someone else's precision beats theirs, even if yours does not - the opponent when they are on someone else's radar, even if out of range of your own - which way they are facing, in real time - the opponent right in front of your eyes, without having to look at your radar, just right there where you can put a crosshair on them and everything as they turn the corner... = lolwallhax [Hate to chime in after saying I wouldn't, but this is a tangent ] I agree with John's assessment; scans are too good in their present form. Technically, Shared Squad Passives aren't supposed to exist. They were disabled in Uprising 1.4 (see patch notes) yet here we are, still sharing squad passives. Rattati recognized the issue and looked into it, but he later reported that the situation proved more involved than he'd expected. We took his report to mean that disabling shared squad sight would require a client-side update. Just in case we get a client-side update, EWAR tweaks were spitballed in the Barbershop; one of the ideas seems to address a few of John's concerns above ... the concept is as follows: * Shared Passives Disabled * If Profile beats Precision, target's position in concealed (presently observed) * If Precision beats or equals Profile, target's position only is revealed * If Precision substantially beats Profile, target's position and orientation are revealed * If Active Scanner beats Profile, target's position and orientation are revealed to squad (presently observed) Good stuff, right? You wouldn't believe the source :-) John Demonsbane wrote: Right now the main issue with scouts (and this is my opinion, not going to suggest that shotty concurs) is that they play far too prominent a role in frontline combat, when they really should be masters of flanking maneuvers and deep strikes. 100% agree. If the statistics indicate that Scouts are outshining Assaults on the frontline, then adjustments should be made. Adjustment approaches differ, depending primarily upon which Scouts (and gear configs) are causing the problems. lolwut? This is no place for so much agreement and rational critical appraisals of ones own class! Time to start hurling childish and completely irrelevant insults! (The godfather of tactical logistics)

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5611	Posted - 2014.10.09 12:10:00 - [781] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I remember the disabling of shared passives last year, but that was for team sharing because the visible chevron element was too much for some people. Without a range indicator, the screen being occupied by 16 floating indicators was considered cluttered. The CCP Itself wrote: Uprising 1.4 Patch Notes: * Shared passive scanner vision for squads disabled (results of active scanners are still shared with squads) Link: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1210968#post1210968 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3230	Posted - 2014.10.09 16:53:00 - [782] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: (honestly I still have a taste for the grown up version of reps seen by our sky clad counterparts in EVE, but that idea may be seen as too radical ). In EVE it's about what, +150% bonus to reps per level of Logistics right? so +750% to a Focused Core Repair tool, puts you at like what....1312 HP/second? Give me that bonus and I'll gladly take the "Sidearm Only" Logi that people get so excited for. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 356	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:10:00 - [783] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I remember the disabling of shared passives last year, but that was for team sharing because the visible chevron element was too much for some people. Without a range indicator, the screen being occupied by 16 floating indicators was considered cluttered. The CCP Itself wrote: Uprising 1.4 Patch Notes: * Shared passive scanner vision for squads disabled (results of active scanners are still shared with squads) Link: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1210968#post1210968 reading comprehension wrote: ...vision for squads [plural] disabled... Squad A, Squad B and Squad C take the field. Squad A detects, Squads B and C receive. THIS is what was disabled, intentionally, to ease the "clutter" of the visual interface. Next line down on those notes also describes the disabling of Team Chevron display for the same reason. This was also when CCP was trying to stimulate Active Scanner use, this patch specifically led to everyone and their gramma becoming a scannerina to make up for the loss of team vision, ie, "Squads Vision". One squad to another. Individual squad member shared vision remains, as it should, since Livin in a Sci-Fi Future wrote: Squad datapooling should be a basic element of gameplay in this setting, as it is now. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 356	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:15:00 - [784] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Cross Atu wrote: (honestly I still have a taste for the grown up version of reps seen by our sky clad counterparts in EVE, but that idea may be seen as too radical ). In EVE it's about what, +150% bonus to reps per level of Logistics right? so +750% to a Focused Core Repair tool, puts you at like what....1312 HP/second? Give me that bonus and I'll gladly take the "Sidearm Only" Logi that people get so excited for. hmm... make it the dual slot sidearm (not the dual wield unless the proposed numbers get better) logi and I'd buy in. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5611	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:32:00 - [785] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I remember the disabling of shared passives last year, but that was for team sharing because the visible chevron element was too much for some people. Without a range indicator, the screen being occupied by 16 floating indicators was considered cluttered. The CCP Itself wrote: Uprising 1.4 Patch Notes: * Shared passive scanner vision for squads disabled (results of active scanners are still shared with squads) Link: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1210968#post1210968 reading comprehension wrote: ...vision for squads [plural] disabled... :: laughs :: :: leaves thread :: Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1906	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:35:00 - [786] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Cross Atu wrote: (honestly I still have a taste for the grown up version of reps seen by our sky clad counterparts in EVE, but that idea may be seen as too radical ). In EVE it's about what, +150% bonus to reps per level of Logistics right? so +750% to a Focused Core Repair tool, puts you at like what....1312 HP/second? Give me that bonus and I'll gladly take the "Sidearm Only" Logi that people get so excited for. 150% to rep RANGE per level of racial cruiser.. And 15% decrease in cap cost per level of logistics ships. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 357	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:46:00 - [787] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: The CCP Itself wrote: Uprising 1.4 Patch Notes: * Shared passive scanner vision for squads disabled (results of active scanners are still shared with squads) Link: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1210968#post1210968 reading comprehension wrote: ...vision for squads [plural] disabled... :: laughs :: :: leaves thread :: o7 Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3184	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:54:00 - [788] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Cross Atu wrote: (honestly I still have a taste for the grown up version of reps seen by our sky clad counterparts in EVE, but that idea may be seen as too radical ). In EVE it's about what, +150% bonus to reps per level of Logistics right? so +750% to a Focused Core Repair tool, puts you at like what....1312 HP/second? Give me that bonus and I'll gladly take the "Sidearm Only" Logi that people get so excited for. hmm... make it the dual slot sidearm (not the dual wield unless the proposed numbers get better) logi and I'd buy in. This! I have been saying this since closed beta. Either completely deep six this "logi should not be able to fight" non-sense or give an actual substantial support role, which would not be combat capable on its own but still meaningful in a fight. The ill defined middle ground thing is frankly a mess and in no small part casual in creating a lot of the current troubles and frictions. It is hard to innovate a way to polish a role - especially via server side only changes - while what the role is remains undefined/in dispute. Even in this thread, which has thankfully remained productive and constructive, there are clear hallmarks of the "what role is it anyway" dispute. Some think 'the big 4' should be logi only, some think only medic play is logi, some despise the idea of logi being identified primarily with medic play etc. While I am deeply grateful that the discussion here is being held in a way that is useful it is still a bit galling to have a situation in which the first question I have to ask upon reading any post is "what role does this poster mean when they say Logistics or Support". Because quite honestly few, or none, of the role ideas are incorrect, but functionally it is highly unlikely that the mechanics of Dust will support a single specialist role attaining all of those concepts at the same time while not being overpowered. Getting back to the quoted posts, the other caveat I would make is that under such a change we would really need a proper War Points system which rewarded based on a X HP restored = Y War Points earned method rather than the current 'cycles and cap' nonsense. Granted keeping the "must me in combat etc" aspects of the current system is not only fine but needed, however that does not justify either cycles or a cap. Honestly such a granulated system could be taken farther still and make kills be a x HP destroyed = Y War Points earned method with the same ratio as the repairs. The just add an extra bonus for things like revives, downing a merc and terminating a clone. At which point you have a more unified earnings system that puts related actions on even footing. "A client patch, a client patch, my kingdom for a client patch" Okay, that's my "I've wanted this stuff since closed beta" rant, I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 357	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:05:00 - [789] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Cross Atu wrote: (honestly I still have a taste for the grown up version of reps seen by our sky clad counterparts in EVE, but that idea may be seen as too radical ). In EVE it's about what, +150% bonus to reps per level of Logistics right? so +750% to a Focused Core Repair tool, puts you at like what....1312 HP/second? Give me that bonus and I'll gladly take the "Sidearm Only" Logi that people get so excited for. 150% to rep RANGE per level of racial cruiser.. And 15% decrease in cap cost per level of logistics ships. Don't tease. Something like that would have me standing on a rooftop Republic Core dual-beaming Dropships like I was flying kites. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 357	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:27:00 - [790] - Quote For the record I vote to Cross Atu wrote: ...deep six this "logi should not be able to fight" non-sense... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3184	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:32:00 - [791] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Cross Atu wrote: (honestly I still have a taste for the grown up version of reps seen by our sky clad counterparts in EVE, but that idea may be seen as too radical ). In EVE it's about what, +150% bonus to reps per level of Logistics right? so +750% to a Focused Core Repair tool, puts you at like what....1312 HP/second? Give me that bonus and I'll gladly take the "Sidearm Only" Logi that people get so excited for. 150% to rep RANGE per level of racial cruiser.. And 15% decrease in cap cost per level of logistics ships. Rough numbers put together purely for illustrative purposes. Clearly there are many more factors in an actual battle, such as range, relative SP invested, accuracy, etc. but these numbers roughly show the comparative magnitude of base reps outgoing vs base damage incoming. And while not by any means exact the margin between Dust and EVE is large enough to highlight the point even if the numbers are kind of a hack job. Working from basic Tech I in EVE (and STD in Dust) here is how it presently stacks up. (All values are gear only, without skills included) Repair EVE Medium I-ax Regenerative Projector Meta level 1 168 HP/5 sec (33.6 HP/s) Dust Repair Tool Meta level 1 (standard gear) 40 HP/s Damage EVE Medium Hybrid Turret - Heavy Electron Blaster I Meta level 1 Rate of fire 3s Damage Modifier 1.8375x Hybrid Charge - Lead Charge M base vs shields 10.8 vs armor 11.4 Base used 11.1 (middle ground) Damage per Second ~ 6.79875 Dust Assault Rifle Meta level 1 (Standard gear) Damage 30.90 HP Rate of fire 800.00 RPM Damage per Second ~ 412 Comparitive margin EVE Repairs 26.80125 HP/s faster (just under 5 times incoming damage) Dust Damage 372 HP/s faster (10.3 times incoming rep rate) So if we were to make the base repair tool in dust conform to the margins in EVE it would heal at approximately 2060 HP/s. Once again that would be the standard repair tool, without skill buffs included, while those values for the Core Focused Repair Tool currently in Dust are 125 HP/s without skills and that is the most intense prototype tool in the game. I trust this highlights the significant difference between a dedicated/pure "I'm not made for killing things" logi (as we see in EVE) and a hybrid "I kill things but also heal some stuff" logi (as we currently have in Dust). Simply put, at the most basic level support play needs a real identity, because the current version where it is supposed to be a hybrid who competes with the slayers but is stacked to lose every fair fight is a conceptual mess. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3231	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:36:00 - [792] - Quote Ah is it range? I stand corrected. Even so, Cross illustrated the point at hand very well. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3520	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:49:00 - [793] - Quote The trick here, that cross is slipping around, is it's hard to balance a logi for meaningful support play without causing DUST to devolve into blob or Zerg warfare whwre everyone must focus fire (primary) on the guy the logi is repping or be annihilated by the numbers. In EVE you need to be able to rep tank because there are only so many ways you can get instablapped. (Being the tackle frigate diving on a double-webbed vindicator would be a good example of instant death) In DUST Since human reaction and aim is the deciding factor if we made reps comparable to EVE you're gonna pass out from boredom before you crack the sentinel's tank.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3233	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:52:00 - [794] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The trick here, that cross is slipping around, is it's hard to balance a logi for meaningful support play without causing DUST to devolve into blob or Zerg warfare whwre everyone must focus fire (primary) on the guy the logi is repping or be annihilated by the numbers. In EVE you need to be able to rep tank because there are only so many ways you can get instablapped. (Being the tackle frigate diving on a double-webbed vindicator would be a good example of instant death) In DUST Since human reaction and aim is the deciding factor if we made reps comparable to EVE you're gonna pass out from boredom before you crack the sentinel's tank. Which is exactly why the argument that "Logis don't even have guns in EVE so why do they get a light weapon here?" is so completely ********. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 359	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:55:00 - [795] - Quote So is the non-buff of Sprint speeds (say .25%, like movement) to alleviate concerns of "slayer-logi" terror? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3520	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:09:00 - [796] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: So is the non-buff of Sprint speeds (say .25%, like movement) to alleviate concerns of "slayer-logi" terror? Slayer logi was only a thing because they could out-tank an assault and could damn near match sentinels. That's it. That is the sordid story of the slayer logi. You could literally buff every non-EHP stat the logi has by 20% and not achieve slayer logi so long as assaults field a significantly better tank. But that's mostly because this community is full of mentally handicapped dingbats who think EHP>ALL. I find the addition of precision mods to an HMG to be amazing even if only a slight boost. Increases my survivability by a wide margin. But more seriously logis need to be better at using equipment than any other suit and they need to be able to escape to allies and fire support. Solo logi should be suicide.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3184	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:13:00 - [797] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The trick here, that cross is slipping around, is it's hard to balance a logi for meaningful support play without causing DUST to devolve into blob or Zerg warfare whwre everyone must focus fire (primary) on the guy the logi is repping or be annihilated by the numbers. That implies that zerg play is not the most common style currently Honestly I'm not slipping around anything, I stated outright that there were many factors not included and that this numbers were not a combat simulation of either game. Breakin Stuff wrote: In EVE you need to be able to rep tank because there are only so many ways you can get instablapped. (Being the tackle frigate diving on a double-webbed vindicator would be a good example of instant death) In DUST Since human reaction and aim is the deciding factor if we made reps comparable to EVE you're gonna pass out from boredom before you crack the sentinel's tank. To be clear, I did state that this was purely to highlight a point. And while I don't advocate the x50 power swing to remote repairs that would be required to give Dust parity with EVE, the point about conceptual roles still stands. Currently in Dust there is this deeply broken notion that a support class should not be combat capable, meanwhile everyone should have full access to the same equipment that the support class is "based around" and layered on top of that the skill buffs for the class, when they even apply in a useful/meaningful way (unlike say half of the current Amarr racial) are not potent enough to bring the equipment up to a level of function wherein actively using it is usually as mechanically potent as simply having another active gun in the fight. A specialization cannot exist as a role within such a conflicted environment and that is what we currently face. Which is why I so often ask the question What can a logi do that makes them of equal value on the field to a slayer? Put another way, within the current context what situation would case having a dedicated support logi stay on the field throughout the whole match be as desired by a ground commander as having a Sentinel, a full damped scout, or a slayer stacked assault? Use cases are key and logistics support play, much like the commando, currently lacks a clear one. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3184	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:16:00 - [798] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Solo logi should be suicide. Agreed, with the addendum that I think the same should apply every bit as much to most fits/roles the majority of the time. But if I really try to make that a baseline I'll only get lynched soo.... /goes back to trying to balance a team game within a world were everyone wants to be their own flavor of Rambo See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 213	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:22:00 - [799] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Solo logi should be suicide. Agreed, with the addendum that I think the same should apply every bit as much to most fits/roles the majority of the time. But if I really try to make that a baseline I'll only get lynched soo.... /goes back to trying to balance a team game within a world were everyone wants to be their own flavor of Rambo Ccp threw teamwork out the window as soon as the cloak was introduced.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7860	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:31:00 - [800] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Solo logi should be suicide. Agreed, with the addendum that I think the same should apply every bit as much to most fits/roles the majority of the time. But if I really try to make that a baseline I'll only get lynched soo.... /goes back to trying to balance a team game within a world were everyone wants to be their own flavor of Rambo Funny because another member of the CPM sounds like he wants the game to be focused on Solo Players, which is cancerous thinking. Teamwork > Random Blues that don't know what they are doing. Working together makes New berries better just by communication, that's how new guys get better. Not being solo, that rarely works and when it does they mostly just become snipers that think that's the only thing to do in this game. "Side Story" I picked up a random Blueberry from Local once trying to be nice, he's says, lets have a sniper squad. We say no, but you can snipe and help us. He then says that's boring and leaves. This has been a prime example of a blueberry. See you space cowboy...

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 359	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:32:00 - [801] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: So is the non-buff of Sprint speeds (say .25%, like movement) to alleviate concerns of "slayer-logi" terror? Slayer logi was only a thing because they could out-tank an assault and could damn near match sentinels. That's it. That is the sordid story of the slayer logi. You could literally buff every non-EHP stat the logi has by 20% and not achieve slayer logi so long as assaults field a significantly better tank. But that's mostly because this community is full of mentally handicapped dingbats who think EHP>ALL. I find the addition of precision mods to an HMG to be amazing even if only a slight boost. Increases my survivability by a wide margin. But more seriously logis need to be better at using equipment than any other suit and they need to be able to escape to allies and fire support. Solo logi should be suicide. Agreed, I remember. I was asking since I was not involved in much of the specific numerics between sheets 1 and 2, I do feel that Movement buffing and Sprint buffing is necessary but understand that across the last 40 pages various individuals have popped in, looked at the drafts, pointed and said, "SlayerLogis!!" So we've got about the acceptable limit (just under Assaults) applied to one half but nothing to the other half. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3520	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:33:00 - [802] - Quote I wasn't contradicting, just adding. The problem with the unarmed logi is the same as the slow turning heavy back in beta. A feeling of impotence. When you cannot make even a token gesture of defiant bloodshed against an attacker you don't fell like a valuable team member. You feel like a victim. No one plays vidya games to be the victim unless they need serious psych help. IMHO the logi needs to have the speed of a assault so they can respond to changing situations, reach downed allies quickly and get behind cover (like a sentinel) when the shooting starts. They need to be more efficient in using equipment than combat suits. This is imperative, even if that means nerfing equipment and bonusing logis to use them at full efficacy. The only exceptions to this rule would be scanners and explosives. Logistics need to not be able to field assault level tank. This was the direct cause of the slayer logi. End. Stop. Look no further for the cause. Logistics do not fare well in a solo pubstar environment because blueberries are idiots. A logistics fit properly costs almost 50%more than a comparable sentinel or assault suit. Losing said fits because your dingleberry allies cannot comprehend that they need to wait up is intensely frustrating. Logistics are mostly ignored by friendly players except sentinels. The sentinel/logi pair is a natural because fatboy is the only ally the suit can keep up with. The sentinel benefit from logi reps more than other suits and more WP can be earned shoving fat intestines back in fat bellies because the HP pool is deep and guardian awards are plentiful. But logi play is stagnant. Most logi suitas are tourist fits used to spam equipment then frag off to a killer fit because no one wants to be a victim, or to tether themselves to sone donut-munching HMG heavy who may or may not understand which way the weapon is supposed to be pointed. Logis are not incentivized to be pro squad players because the squads leave them In the dust with the fatsuits who are relegated to protecting cap points and playing squad bait.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 359	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:45:00 - [803] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Solo logi should be suicide. Agreed, with the addendum that I think the same should apply every bit as much to most fits/roles the majority of the time. But if I really try to make that a baseline I'll only get lynched soo.... /goes back to trying to balance a team game within a world were everyone wants to be their own flavor of Rambo Ccp threw teamwork out the window as soon as the cloak was introduced. It can be bad but I don't think its quite that bad. Cloaking, especially with the extra dampening and doubly especially on Scouts is just very potent. Potent enough that squadded individuals are able to manuever at greater distances from one another, making an outside assessment of their teamwork that much more difficult. Case in point- I'm a logi laying links and hives, my squadmates are clearing a supply depot on the opposite side of a structure from me. They push the reds back into my LOS, and I pick a couple off from their flank. Those reds, based on their deathscreen very likely said, "QQ, SlayerLogi!!" oblivious that it was my squad pushing them to me and the only reason I even had the position was because I was prepping that area for my squad/team to use. Personally I like cloaking and the additional tactical depth it allows, even if that depth drowns me sometimes. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 359	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:53:00 - [804] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I wasn't contradicting, just adding. The problem with the unarmed logi is the same as the slow turning heavy back in beta. A feeling of impotence. When you cannot make even a token gesture of defiant bloodshed against an attacker you don't fell like a valuable team member. You feel like a victim. No one plays vidya games to be the victim unless they need serious psych help. IMHO the logi needs to have the speed of a assault so they can respond to changing situations, reach downed allies quickly and get behind cover (like a sentinel) when the shooting starts. They need to be more efficient in using equipment than combat suits. This is imperative, even if that means nerfing equipment and bonusing logis to use them at full efficacy. The only exceptions to this rule would be scanners and explosives. Logistics need to not be able to field assault level tank. This was the direct cause of the slayer logi. End. Stop. Look no further for the cause. Logistics do not fare well in a solo pubstar environment because blueberries are idiots. A logistics fit properly costs almost 50%more than a comparable sentinel or assault suit. Losing said fits because your dingleberry allies cannot comprehend that they need to wait up is intensely frustrating. Logistics are mostly ignored by friendly players except sentinels. The sentinel/logi pair is a natural because fatboy is the only ally the suit can keep up with. The sentinel benefit from logi reps more than other suits and more WP can be earned shoving fat intestines back in fat bellies because the HP pool is deep and guardian awards are plentiful. But logi play is stagnant. Most logi suitas are tourist fits used to spam equipment then frag off to a killer fit because no one wants to be a victim, or to tether themselves to sone donut-munching HMG heavy who may or may not understand which way the weapon is supposed to be pointed. Logis are not incentivized to be pro squad players because the squads leave them In the dust with the fatsuits who are relegated to protecting cap points and playing squad bait. We're on the same page, squad member quality notwithstanding. Only caveat I would to any of this really would just be that if the Scanners and Explosives are to be exempted from the equipment nerf/bonus adjustments then Scouts really have to be 1 equipment slot. They could still cloak and run invisi-ops, but not while simultaneously being madbombers and unit detection central. Cloak or Scan or Bomb while Tanking, Ganking and Speeding only. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4158	Posted - 2014.10.09 21:39:00 - [805] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: it is still a bit galling to have a situation in which the first question I have to ask upon reading any post is "what role does this poster mean when they say Logistics or Support". Here's my rant from another thread, just in case you weren't sure what I mean when I say support. (some idiot suggested that I didn't need a weapon because I have a Sentinel for that) John Demonsbane wrote: More importantly, I feel something needs to be said about this, because bad balancing ideas based on this false premise are driving me crazy. Lets just make one thing very clear: My sole reason for existence is not to leech off some fatty all game. I'm not a sentient armor repair module. - I maintain tactical control of the map with placement of blue uplinks and removal of red ones - I provide ammunition - I provide tactical information with scanners - I provide suppressive fire and finish off weakened enemies so I can revive you - I set RE's or proxy traps - I counter snipe to keep the killers focused on their job - And yes, I repair damaged suits and provide additional eHP to sentinels to break through highly defended areas. ("back in my day" rant incoming) Some of you may be used to the more recent brain-dead, repper-only logi meta, but those of us who have been logis from long before the logi suits and equipment got nerfed, or when there was only one logi suit, or before every god damn blueberry, their brother, sister, second cousins, and next door neighbor's dog started wh0ring WP by spamming uplinks at the start of every freaking match have a slightly different concept of what it means to provide logistical/tactical support. One that gasp includes having my weapon active more than my rep tool. There's more than one way to keep people alive - let me know when you find a rep tool that can keep up with the DPS of any major weapon, because I want one of those. (Pro tip: Sentinels have shields. You (basically) always have time to pull out your rep tool, but not to switch to a weapon.) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3526	Posted - 2014.10.09 21:54:00 - [806] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: A boat-ton of stuff Remember when mass driver logis were a primary support staple to assault squads? Good times.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3235	Posted - 2014.10.09 22:27:00 - [807] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: (Pro tip: Sentinels have shields. You (basically) always have time to pull out your rep tool, but not to switch to a weapon.) Totally agree. I hate when I see Logi's running around repping a heavy with full armor and shields. In many cases it is more advantageous for the Logi to help the Sentinel kill the guy, than cower behind him repping constantly. This is the primary reason why I have always been so adamantly against the "Sidearm Only Logi" concept. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1906	Posted - 2014.10.09 22:35:00 - [808] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: (Pro tip: Sentinels have shields. You (basically) always have time to pull out your rep tool, but not to switch to a weapon.) Totally agree. I hate when I see Logi's running around repping a heavy with full armor and shields. In many cases it is more advantageous for the Logi to help the Sentinel kill the guy, than cower behind him repping constantly. This is the primary reason why I have always been so adamantly against the "Sidearm Only Logi" concept. Depending on the situation, having the rep per on the heavy is indeed beneficial, such as when pushing the point in domination and you expect a sudden attack at any moment. Although it is true you don't need him leashed at all times. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3236	Posted - 2014.10.09 22:39:00 - [809] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: (Pro tip: Sentinels have shields. You (basically) always have time to pull out your rep tool, but not to switch to a weapon.) Totally agree. I hate when I see Logi's running around repping a heavy with full armor and shields. In many cases it is more advantageous for the Logi to help the Sentinel kill the guy, than cower behind him repping constantly. This is the primary reason why I have always been so adamantly against the "Sidearm Only Logi" concept. Depending on the situation, having the rep per on the heavy is indeed beneficial, such as when pushing the point in domination and you expect a sudden attack at any moment. Although it is true you don't need him leashed at all times. Yes its very situation dependent, but many Logis feel that you should ALWAYS have that rep tool going. When I play Logi and am latched onto a Heavy, I try to consider the map and what areas we're going to be spending time in. If it's all CQC it's pretty much his game in terms of killing, but if we're gong to be in areas where enemies could be attacking from outside his Optimal Range, It's my job to provide covering fire if not kill the guy outright since the Heavy is unable to retaliate. As we've discussed, Logis cannot negate incoming damage, so if the enemy in unkillable by the heavy for whatever reason, it's going to be better if the Logi kills the enemy instead of trying to rep through the incoming damage. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4160	Posted - 2014.10.09 22:48:00 - [810] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: A boat-ton of stuff Remember when mass driver logis were a primary support staple to assault squads? Good times. Hells yeah I do. You'd better believe I was one of those fools. Alena Ventrallis wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: (Pro tip: Sentinels have shields. You (basically) always have time to pull out your rep tool, but not to switch to a weapon.) Totally agree. I hate when I see Logi's running around repping a heavy with full armor and shields. In many cases it is more advantageous for the Logi to help the Sentinel kill the guy, than cower behind him repping constantly. This is the primary reason why I have always been so adamantly against the "Sidearm Only Logi" concept. Depending on the situation, having the rep per on the heavy is indeed beneficial, such as when pushing the point in domination and you expect a sudden attack at any moment. Although it is true you don't need him leashed at all times. 100% true. But in that situation you know what is going to come. Once you get within 30m or whatever of a Dom objective, yes, put up that rep and get ready for hell to rain down. But, say, in skirmish, going from one point to another, it's pure folly not to have your weapon at the ready. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7872	Posted - 2014.10.09 22:53:00 - [811] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: 100% true. But in that situation you know what is going to come. Once you get within 30m or whatever of a Dom objective, yes, put up that rep and get ready for hell to rain down. But, say, in skirmish, going from one point to another, it's pure folly not to have your weapon at the ready. Trust me, I've many dumbass Logis get killed without a fight because they kept their reps on a heavy that wasn't even paying attention to them while they were getting shot at. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4162	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:10:00 - [812] - Quote I do not doubt that for a second. Sadly, though, from what I hear that's what a number of new-ish PC corps teach their logis to do. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3186	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:16:00 - [813] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Solo logi should be suicide. Agreed, with the addendum that I think the same should apply every bit as much to most fits/roles the majority of the time. But if I really try to make that a baseline I'll only get lynched soo.... /goes back to trying to balance a team game within a world were everyone wants to be their own flavor of Rambo Ccp threw teamwork out the window as soon as the cloak was introduced. A bit of an oversimplification IMO, not that I'd claim the cloak didn't impact the ability to play solo, obviously it did, but the game isn't as binary as all that. Being tacnet invisible does more to allow solo scout strikers than the 'predatory shimmer' at least in my experience. Even before either of those back in beta there were assaults using (the then much more potent) nanohives to supply themselves and lone wolf it all over. There is the whole redline sniping thing, in or out of HAVS. There's the LAV tanking solo play, and used to be the murder taxi epidemic, ADS (no gunners required here) were recently the most potent single thing in the game according to the numbers. The list of course goes on. And honestly I'm not saying anything as intense as "hey your 70m from the nearest ally, your head will now explode" but general premises are good to keep track of. In essence, can you get the value of another role while running in your current role? Also, do you gain extra benefits by having and running with, a squad (you can be in one and not run together so the mechanical "squad" isn't much of an indicator). Can you remain combat ready without a logi despite taking damage and expending ammo? Does your scout fit allow you to solo assault an entrenched position? Can your sniper secure and hack a point? Does your heavy have meaningful force projection? Obviously the answer to all of these questions is situational, which is what makes balance tricky, but situational or not these are the type of ideas that are important to keep track of because any role that is able to do the "jack of all trades" thing without having the corresponding "master of none" is going to be game breaking. The specializations within dust come, ideally, with drawbacks other roles do not face, and assets other roles cannot replicate. We are not currently at that point, but it is, in my view, a laudable goal to shoot for. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3187	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:24:00 - [814] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Solo logi should be suicide. Agreed, with the addendum that I think the same should apply every bit as much to most fits/roles the majority of the time. But if I really try to make that a baseline I'll only get lynched soo.... /goes back to trying to balance a team game within a world were everyone wants to be their own flavor of Rambo Funny because another member of the CPM sounds like he wants the game to be focused on Solo Players, which is cancerous thinking. Teamwork > Random Blues that don't know what they are doing. Working together makes New berries better just by communication, that's how new guys get better. Not being solo, that rarely works and when it does they mostly just become snipers that think that's the only thing to do in this game. Yeah, as it turns out, the CPM do not universally agree Actually I am glad the CPM dispute things because it would likely make for very poor consideration of ideas if we all just nodded on que and said "yes" to everything, or even all the same things. But yeah, turns out getting this shiny white tag didn't change my thoughts on the game even when they don't fall into line with the CPM or CCP See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 874	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:25:00 - [815] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: A boat-ton of stuff Remember when mass driver logis were a primary support staple to assault squads? Good times. Hells yeah I do. You'd better believe I was one of those fools. I am still one of those fools... It is however still quite effective in the right hands. Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3187	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:27:00 - [816] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I wasn't contradicting, just adding. nods You know that, and I know that, but random berry who pops into the thread may not know that so I generally respond anyway just to keep the bases covered. Which is why you may have noticed I am a lot less wordy on comms than I am here in the forums See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3189	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:30:00 - [817] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I wasn't contradicting, just adding. The problem with the unarmed logi is the same as the slow turning heavy back in beta. A feeling of impotence. When you cannot make even a token gesture of defiant bloodshed against an attacker you don't fell like a valuable team member. You feel like a victim. No one plays vidya games to be the victim unless they need serious psych help. IMHO the logi needs to have the speed of a assault so they can respond to changing situations, reach downed allies quickly and get behind cover (like a sentinel) when the shooting starts. They need to be more efficient in using equipment than combat suits. This is imperative, even if that means nerfing equipment and bonusing logis to use them at full efficacy. The only exceptions to this rule would be scanners and explosives. Logistics need to not be able to field assault level tank. This was the direct cause of the slayer logi. End. Stop. Look no further for the cause. Logistics do not fare well in a solo pubstar environment because blueberries are idiots. A logistics fit properly costs almost 50%more than a comparable sentinel or assault suit. Losing said fits because your dingleberry allies cannot comprehend that they need to wait up is intensely frustrating. Logistics are mostly ignored by friendly players except sentinels. The sentinel/logi pair is a natural because fatboy is the only ally the suit can keep up with. The sentinel benefit from logi reps more than other suits and more WP can be earned shoving fat intestines back in fat bellies because the HP pool is deep and guardian awards are plentiful. But logi play is stagnant. Most logi suitas are tourist fits used to spam equipment then frag off to a killer fit because no one wants to be a victim, or to tether themselves to sone donut-munching HMG heavy who may or may not understand which way the weapon is supposed to be pointed. Logis are not incentivized to be pro squad players because the squads leave them In the dust with the fatsuits who are relegated to protecting cap points and playing squad bait. I know I just quoted the opening passage a moment ago, but I am quoting the whole thing now. Why? Because this is one of the most complete single post summaries of current logi related troubles that I have had the opportunity to read. o7 See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3189	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:33:00 - [818] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: A boat-ton of stuff Remember when mass driver logis were a primary support staple to assault squads? Good times. I miss the real mass driver from those days. I used to only run mass driver because of its suppression options. I would hardly ever get a kill but I racked up assists like mad and more importantly I supported my squad. The the changes, and now my proto MD sits on a shelf 99% of the time. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3535	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:53:00 - [819] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Because this is one of the most complete single post summaries of current logi related troubles that I have had the opportunity to read. o7 I try to pay attention to how and why I'm gutting someone successfully. Logis are basically free warpoints unless the merc is slicker than a greased weasel. But on a more serious note, anyone watching blueberry and red dot behavior will easily note certain patterns. Right now equipment spam IS the logistics meta. It's the most effective way to gain WP and thus ISK. But all of the other weak points contribute to Logis being very rightly risk-averse. It's rather annoying, because a logi in support of an assault squad would be a force multiplier far more useful to a team than having that same logi leashed to a sentinel's ass. Sorry my fat brethren, but the whole logis are chubby chasers meta needs to be shifted to logis being the life of the party. Who the hell else is going to bring the nano-assembled beer kegs?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3535	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:55:00 - [820] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: The the changes, and now my proto MD sits on a shelf 99% of the time. Take it off the shelf. I'm going to say two words, and I'm going to let the implications sink in and make you cackle insanely: Scout Hunting.

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3190	Posted - 2014.10.10 00:05:00 - [821] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross Atu wrote: The the changes, and now my proto MD sits on a shelf 99% of the time. Take it off the shelf. I'm going to say two words, and I'm going to let the implications sink in and make you cackle insanely: Scout Hunting. considers... results = goes to build fit See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3538	Posted - 2014.10.10 00:06:00 - [822] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross Atu wrote: The the changes, and now my proto MD sits on a shelf 99% of the time. Take it off the shelf. I'm going to say two words, and I'm going to let the implications sink in and make you cackle insanely: Scout Hunting. considers... results = goes to build fit Now you understand how I think. There is no such thing as impossible. There is only "How much explosives am I going to need?"
Llast 326 An Arkhos 4763	Posted - 2014.10.10 00:10:00 - [823] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross Atu wrote: The the changes, and now my proto MD sits on a shelf 99% of the time. Take it off the shelf. I'm going to say two words, and I'm going to let the implications sink in and make you cackle insanely: Scout Hunting. considers... results = goes to build fit Watches Cross from that dark corner of his Merc Quarters We always knowGÇª KRRROOOOOOM
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3190	Posted - 2014.10.10 00:36:00 - [824] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross Atu wrote: The the changes, and now my proto MD sits on a shelf 99% of the time. Take it off the shelf. I'm going to say two words, and I'm going to let the implications sink in and make you cackle insanely: Scout Hunting. considers... results = goes to build fit Watches Cross from that dark corner of his Merc Quarters We always knowGÇª Mass Driver Minja, the new super scout See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1907	Posted - 2014.10.10 00:54:00 - [825] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross Atu wrote: The the changes, and now my proto MD sits on a shelf 99% of the time. Take it off the shelf. I'm going to say two words, and I'm going to let the implications sink in and make you cackle insanely: Scout Hunting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcinzmfZeCc Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 362	Posted - 2014.10.10 07:40:00 - [826] - Quote So, if the equipment cost is off the table then there's no need for the balancing reductions in cpu and pg correct? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3540	Posted - 2014.10.10 07:44:00 - [827] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross Atu wrote: The the changes, and now my proto MD sits on a shelf 99% of the time. Take it off the shelf. I'm going to say two words, and I'm going to let the implications sink in and make you cackle insanely: Scout Hunting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcinzmfZeCc Yeah that's about how I felt the first time I blew an ADV MD off at a calscout's feet. It was heartwarming.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 362	Posted - 2014.10.10 16:47:00 - [828] - Quote The 80hp from sheet 1 I think better serves our survivability purpose than the 40 hp from sheet 2, especially once those hp are divided between shield and armor. 20 extra hp either side isn't enough additional buffer for the high fire conditions that ignite on contested points/choke areas. 20 extra points would wind up being an extra .5 seconds of survival... really not enough. We've established that with the new bonusing to weaponry/base stats other suits have been buffed with in recent months slayerlogis are almost impossible to recreate so why not the full 80 (or even 100?) hp? Even on suits that equal Assaults on one side, shield or armor, the Assault hp total is still greater in all cases. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 142	Posted - 2014.10.10 17:02:00 - [829] - Quote Meee One wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross Logistics Mk.0 Injectors: WP as incentive is nice,but if a MLT frame can walk up and tap O to negate your Pro needle then the problem still remains. Doesn't really help shield tankers. -Need a needle priority system that uses the HIGHEST level needle when reviving. -Possibly reduce the amount of armor refilled and give a comperable amount of shields instead. Rep tool: Neon "kill me" sign. Can't outrep a MLT weapon with a Pro rep tool. Places logistics firmly on the frontlines of combat with its insanely short reach. Provides 0 incentive other than WP farming. Allies don't know they're being repaired. Doesn't really help shield tankers. -Remove the rep tool line to aid in logistics survival,leave the lock on boxes. -Give damage resistance while using (something like 65% to all damage) -Increase range by dramatic amounts for the logistics class. -Return the rep tool glow,but have it work like hit detection so an ally can see which side they are being repaired from -Negate shield recharge delays while used on allies,or recharge 25% of shields per hp/s restored. (eg sixkin 88 hp/s so 25% of 88) possibly reduce armor repair rate to compensate. Presto a rep tool that helps shield and armor. Hives - Any- Too easily destroyed by any stray explosions. Low carrying capacity. Low refilling amounts. (nanites) Annoying when a MLT frame stands on top throwing grenades at no one to use them faster. -Explosive resistance increase so it actually takes effort to destroy them. -+1 carried per level logistics bonus -Increased nanites -or- burst variants that refill faster but have lower nanites (think compact nanohives). -Disable grenades being refilled Scanners: Dat cooldown. -Nuff' said Uplinks: Actually alright R.E.s: The description says volitile chemicals yet i see scouts throw them from hights taller than their own suit,and sling them as if they are throwing frisbees. Are considered equipment yet can be refilled at nanohives. -Have them explode killing only the thrower if dropped from too high a height or slung with too much momentum -Disable refilling from hives Logistics suits: 30 more eHP than a scout Slower than heavier tanked mediums Bigger hitbox despite having less eHP Doesn't have the best regen despite having less eHP Doesn't have the best eHP despite its speed. When run as a support unit it costs easily 2x as much with 1/2 the survival Since logistics has more in common with scouts (ewar,equipment) logistics should be made to mimic them. -Keep the low eHP but in exchange give speed/stamina,regen amount and speed,and a smaller hitbox. This way it establishes a theme,support is fast and evasive,while killing is strong and durable. -Cut equipment costs by 50% minimal Based on personal experience,i would prefer to be harder to hit with better regen than have higher eHP. eHP just makes it too tempting to fight instead of support. Min logi scout commando sentinel and assault Our health is fine IF we stack hp mods. We should be in the heat of things and expect immunity. I good heavy will keep his logi alive!!! There hard to come by but I they do exist. This is however where the min logi shines with the bonus to distance. I would like to see less slots with better base stats. This would help with the overall cost as well as allow us to have better health, speed, and possibly EWAR without the suit being abused. I think the best stat to increase would be EWAR, we should have better range, personally I think we should match scouts with range but keep our precision. Keep our sprint and stead speed but buff our walking speed to help with reping and a slight buff to hp. The Best Worst game you can't stop playing..... DUST
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 362	Posted - 2014.10.10 17:41:00 - [830] - Quote Part of the point in this is to create base stats that don't immediately require we surround ourselves with heavies, competent or not. Any suit can stack hp to tank hp, considering the sort of module spreads that Logistics units could be utilizing to support their squad (especially ewar) we and our squads are worse served by Logis having to stack hp just get to minimums that are more or less base stats for every other frame we're in combat against. NoOne in here is advocating any sort of immunity, just a base stat set that better survivability and utility can be built up from. Why on earth would you suggest we drop slots, with the possible loss difference being made up by base stats? That doesn't create a net gain (what we're looking for, fair buffs) it creates a net wash. As far as this as a method to deter abusers, I don't see it working. The best method by far is what we already have- Scout, Assault and Heavy stats and bonuses that are extremely combat effective and far superior to what Logis currently or in the future have. If buffing into potential abuse territory is a concern, I suggested (and still do) that Logistics frames be a Dropsuit Command Level 5 unlock, filtering out the tourists/short-timers who are most often the culprits of abuse of any frame. A good question tho, Where are we as far as being able to have our hitbox profile lowered? Can that be done? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 372	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:15:00 - [831] - Quote popcorn machine begins emitting smoke from uneaten popcorn burning Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5736	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:30:00 - [832] - Quote Suggestion * Scan Range: +3m Logi, +5m Assault, +5m Commando * Scan Profile: -5 dB Assault * Scan Precision: -5 dB Commando (equal to Assault) * CA Commando: +1 Low Slot, +PG/CPU * MN Commando: +1 Low Slot, +PG/CPU * GA Commando: +1 High Slot, +PG/CPU * AM Commando: +1 High Slot, +PG/CPU Concept * Permits the Commando flexibility in choosing which role to fill. * Permits the Commando option to rival new Assault HP levels. * Permits the Commando opportunity to engage more meaningfully in EWAR. Thoughts? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 374	Posted - 2014.10.12 07:46:00 - [833] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: So, if the equipment cost is off the table then there's no need for the balancing reductions in cpu and pg correct? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 374	Posted - 2014.10.12 07:47:00 - [834] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: The 80hp from sheet 1 I think better serves our survivability purpose than the 40 hp from sheet 2, especially once those hp are divided between shield and armor. 20 extra hp either side isn't enough additional buffer for the high fire conditions that ignite on contested points/choke areas. 20 extra points would wind up being an extra .5 seconds of survival... really not enough. We've established that with the new bonusing to weaponry/base stats other suits have been buffed with in recent months slayerlogis are almost impossible to recreate so why not the full 80 (or even 100?) hp? Even on suits that equal Assaults on one side, shield or armor, the Assault hp total is still greater in all cases. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Atiim 12907	Posted - 2014.10.12 13:20:00 - [835] - Quote How about giving Repair Tools a capacitor? The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4174	Posted - 2014.10.12 15:20:00 - [836] - Quote How about giving us capacitors? (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 378	Posted - 2014.10.12 19:46:00 - [837] - Quote I'll need a buff to my arm if my job becomes run around and throw batteries at people. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
doc lowroar THE 300 SPARTANS 4	Posted - 2014.10.12 22:52:00 - [838] - Quote Lvl. 3 gal. Lvl. 5 min. 31 mill. Lifetime sp. Dedicated logi . Fix hit detection on scouts , besides that all is good. 07 "Wherever you go, there you are" -BB
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 383	Posted - 2014.10.14 18:23:00 - [839] - Quote Sheet get updated yet? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3240	Posted - 2014.10.14 18:49:00 - [840] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Sheet get updated yet? Iteration #3 has not yet been posted - I am currently waiting on the tech evaluations for related items (mostly checking which of the skill methods can be confirmed as possible) before moving forward. I will be certain there is a post here stating when Iteration #3 goes live See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 384	Posted - 2014.10.14 18:59:00 - [841] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Sheet get updated yet? Iteration #3 has not yet been posted - I am currently waiting on the tech evaluations for related items (mostly checking which of the skill methods can be confirmed as possible) before moving forward. I will be certain there is a post here stating when Iteration #3 goes live Cool, tyvm, thought I'd ask. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 387	Posted - 2014.10.14 23:47:00 - [842] - Quote Oh and, since they were in here "contributing", you should read through the following thread. The scouts and their resident voicepiece are not and do not provide gamebalance intended feedback. The evidence (kdr leaderboards, wtf? fknsrsly??) and their tables (Magnus' whole intercourse) are deeply skewed to never allow scout functionality to be balanced with the rest of the game. Please DISREGARD any of their input to the conversation on Support and Support play. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177251&find=unread Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4193	Posted - 2014.10.15 03:17:00 - [843] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Oh and, since they were in here "contributing", you should read through the following thread. The scouts and their resident voicepiece are not and do not provide gamebalance intended feedback. The evidence (kdr leaderboards, wtf? fknsrsly??) and their tables (Magnus' whole intercourse) are deeply skewed to never allow scout functionality to be balanced with the rest of the game. Please DISREGARD any of their input to the conversation on Support and Support play. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177251&find=unread I don't think we should be lumping them all together. I mean, players like Appia can be a bit unilaterally minded but I personally don't have an issue with the artist formally known as shotty gobang, for example. Plus, you'd really be no better than them if you wanted to exclude everyone else from the conversation, would you not? (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 387	Posted - 2014.10.15 17:31:00 - [844] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Nothing personal, but I'm ok with meee one being out of this, *the grown ups need to make some possibly far reaching decisions here (as far reaching as things can be in dust) and objectivity is crucial*. So, more like this then? When will you clean the FanFestRageQuitter riding the reputation of characters THEY AREN'T stardust from your eyes and see that this cabal of individuals has zero interest in balanced gameplay mechanics? The game got better while they were gone. Coincidence? Now they're "back" and continued improvement gets stymied while new misinformation and intentionally useless data is introduced by them and vetted? Coincidence again? DUST is built on customized counters countering counters but if one class group has 95% of the counters built in outright then there will always be one class group that starts, ends, and decides almost every battle. Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels. If "Shotty Go Bang" or "Appia" want to discuss it with me, I'm not hiding. I Laugh My Ass Off Out Loud at altcowards. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3258	Posted - 2014.10.15 18:24:00 - [845] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Nothing personal, but I'm ok with meee one being out of this, *the grown ups need to make some possibly far reaching decisions here (as far reaching as things can be in dust) and objectivity is crucial*. So, more like this then? When will you clean the FanFestRageQuitter riding the reputation of characters THEY AREN'T stardust from your eyes and see that this cabal of individuals has zero interest in balanced gameplay mechanics? The game got better while they were gone. Coincidence? Now they're "back" and continued improvement gets stymied while new misinformation and intentionally useless data is introduced by them and vetted? Coincidence again? DUST is built on customized counters countering counters but if one class group has 95% of the counters built in outright then there will always be one class group that starts, ends, and decides almost every battle. Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels. If "Shotty Go Bang" or "Appia" want to discuss it with me, I'm not hiding. I Laugh My Ass Off Out Loud at altcowards. Not the thread for debating the overall viability of the scout role or its overall balance with other roles. While certainly the scout, assault, and even commando have some relevance to the topic of this thread a debate centering around another class is hardly useful in this context - even less so calling out specific members of the community. I realize that there is somewhat of a 'holding pattern' going on right now until I can update the thread with tech evaluations in hand, and as such it is easy for conversation to sidetrack, but let us try to keep this thread 'on point'. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3243	Posted - 2014.10.15 19:01:00 - [846] - Quote Scope creep is bad Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 388	Posted - 2014.10.15 22:29:00 - [847] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Nothing personal, but I'm ok with meee one being out of this, *the grown ups need to make some possibly far reaching decisions here (as far reaching as things can be in dust) and objectivity is crucial*. So, more like this then? When will you clean the FanFestRageQuitter riding the reputation of characters THEY AREN'T stardust from your eyes and see that this cabal of individuals has zero interest in balanced gameplay mechanics? The game got better while they were gone. Coincidence? Now they're "back" and continued improvement gets stymied while new misinformation and intentionally useless data is introduced by them and vetted? Coincidence again? DUST is built on customized counters countering counters but if one class group has 95% of the counters built in outright then there will always be one class group that starts, ends, and decides almost every battle. Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels. If "Shotty Go Bang" or "Appia" want to discuss it with me, I'm not hiding. I Laugh My Ass Off Out Loud at altcowards. Not the thread for debating the overall viability of the scout role or its overall balance with other roles. While certainly the scout, assault, and even commando have some relevance to the topic of this thread a debate centering around another class is hardly useful in this context - even less so calling out specific members of the community. I realize that there is somewhat of a 'holding pattern' going on right now until I can update the thread with tech evaluations in hand, and as such it is easy for conversation to sidetrack, but let us try to keep this thread 'on point'. 0.02 ISK Cross Understood, the only reason it cameos in this thread at all is to ensure the "input" from said individuals is recognition of the actual, greater, context. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 388	Posted - 2014.10.15 22:34:00 - [848] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Scope creep is bad Needs more hipfire. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4195	Posted - 2014.10.16 04:01:00 - [849] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Not the thread for debating the overall viability of the scout role or its overall balance with other roles. While certainly the scout, assault, and even commando have some relevance to the topic of this thread a debate centering around another class is hardly useful in this context - even less so calling out specific members of the community. I realize that there is somewhat of a 'holding pattern' going on right now until I can update the thread with tech evaluations in hand, and as such it is easy for conversation to sidetrack, but let us try to keep this thread 'on point'. 0.02 ISK Cross Understood, the only reason it cameos in this thread at all is to ensure the "input" from said individuals is recognition of the actual, greater, context. My personal opinion is that some of those scouts are reasonably objective. Certainly not all of them. Not everyone does or has to agree with that, but I do honestly think just shutting them out would be a little hypocritical since the major complaint about them, which does have merit, is that they have a very influential little club that not even all scouts are allowed in to. ... And I guess I assumed it went without saying that the opinion of those that are not "professional" logi's should be viewed in that context, maybe I should have said that explicitly. Anyway, back to the topic. I'm quite interested to hear what is technically possible and what isn't. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 388	Posted - 2014.10.16 20:54:00 - [850] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Anyway, back to the topic. I'm quite interested to hear what is technically possible and what isn't. About that. What if we kept the cloak bonus? I realize it's a glitch, unintended and up for correction,but cloak logis aren't any sort of major threat since every scout in town and half the prec enhanced mediums can still detect them AND are combat superior in every aspect versus them. If logis keep the fitting bonus (hell, maybe even make the fitting bonus better) there'd be no need to spend DEV resources to change it, Logis would have worthwhile access to an EWAR element and it would all be with no major negatives on existing gameplay, since it doesn't seem to have that effect now while still being an aspect of current conditions. Oh, yeah- Nerf scouts, on all of the things. I'd add this to my sig but it seems so much more personal when I take the time to write it by "hand". Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4196	Posted - 2014.10.17 02:34:00 - [851] - Quote I'm down with keeping the cloak bonus. Cloaks still remain hard to fit, and unless you really dedicated the suit to it, they are kind of a lolfit anyway because people can still see the chevron over your head. Don't see a problem. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Songs of Seraphim Murphys-Law 5	Posted - 2014.10.21 06:15:00 - [852] - Quote patiently waits for anything logi and support related makes passive-aggressive post ._. In all seriousness, does the announcement of 1.9 postpone any logistics and support alterations? Or would any update from here on out be updated with the installment of 1.9? I need a reason to not give up on my logi suit, since outside of PC, I seldom use it. Since the standard Caldari logistics suit is laughable, and the advanced is mediocre... It's proto or go home. Which isn't necessarily the case, but it sure feels like it if you want survivability.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3383	Posted - 2014.10.21 06:39:00 - [853] - Quote Songs of Seraphim wrote: patiently waits for anything logi and support related makes passive-aggressive post ._. In all seriousness, does the announcement of 1.9 postpone any logistics and support alterations? Or would any update from here on out be updated with the installment of 1.9? I need a reason to not give up on my logi suit, since outside of PC, I seldom use it. Since the standard Caldari logistics suit is laughable, and the advanced is mediocre... It's proto or go home. Which isn't necessarily the case, but it sure feels like it if you want survivability. Currently trying to get Logi updates ready for hotfix Echo, but that won't come until after patch 1.9 deployment my current *guess* is we'll be looking at updates to this thread second or third week of Nov. I will of course make efforts to have it in before that if possible, but 1.9 takes priority. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8051	Posted - 2014.10.21 06:48:00 - [854] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Songs of Seraphim wrote: patiently waits for anything logi and support related makes passive-aggressive post ._. In all seriousness, does the announcement of 1.9 postpone any logistics and support alterations? Or would any update from here on out be updated with the installment of 1.9? I need a reason to not give up on my logi suit, since outside of PC, I seldom use it. Since the standard Caldari logistics suit is laughable, and the advanced is mediocre... It's proto or go home. Which isn't necessarily the case, but it sure feels like it if you want survivability. Currently trying to get Logi updates ready for hotfix Echo, but that won't come until after patch 1.9 deployment my current *guess* is we'll be looking at updates to this thread second or third week of Nov. I will of course make efforts to have it in before that if possible, but 1.9 takes priority. Cheers, Cross I like you and all but your name is right there, why do you sign your post with your name when we know it's you? CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3383	Posted - 2014.10.21 07:25:00 - [855] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Songs of Seraphim wrote: patiently waits for anything logi and support related makes passive-aggressive post ._. In all seriousness, does the announcement of 1.9 postpone any logistics and support alterations? Or would any update from here on out be updated with the installment of 1.9? I need a reason to not give up on my logi suit, since outside of PC, I seldom use it. Since the standard Caldari logistics suit is laughable, and the advanced is mediocre... It's proto or go home. Which isn't necessarily the case, but it sure feels like it if you want survivability. Currently trying to get Logi updates ready for hotfix Echo, but that won't come until after patch 1.9 deployment my current *guess* is we'll be looking at updates to this thread second or third week of Nov. I will of course make efforts to have it in before that if possible, but 1.9 takes priority. Cheers, Cross I like you and all but your name is right there, why do you sign your post with your name when we know it's you? lol, I was wondering when someone would bring that up, and honestly I am surprised it's taken this long to happen. The answer is nothing particularly interesting though, it is simply an old habit from when I started gaming long ago in a galaxy far far away. Rationally I know full well it doesn't actually do anything in this context, but then again, habitual behavior is rarely a font of rationality See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3387	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:45:00 - [856] - Quote An idea that would, if implemented, have an effect on our conversation here. Honestly I think it would be a positive step as it would give more flex in what/how we can proceed with iterations on the proposal here (of course still going to need some info back from CCP on those, but still this could open a door IMO). See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3447	Posted - 2014.10.23 10:56:00 - [857] - Quote Updated stats these will be considered and incorporated for the next iteration of the proposal. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 396	Posted - 2014.10.23 18:54:00 - [858] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Currently trying to get Logi updates ready for hotfix Echo, but that won't come until after patch 1.9 deployment my current *guess* is we'll be looking at updates to this thread second or third week of Nov. I will of course make efforts to have it in before that if possible, but 1.9 takes priority. Cheers, Cross So am I inferring accurately then that we'll see 1.9 deployed here last week of October or so? I have some real high hopes for native repping not just helping us in heavy-fire conditions but also with some of whats being perceived as reptool "spam"/wp-whoring. If more frames have reps, theres less for us to rep and generate our " OP" WP from, so to compensate repwhores will have to diversify their skillsets making reppers less prominent and therefore less likely to inspire debate about their use/mechanics for rewards. Which I think is a good thing. Logistics, regardless of the racial take or specialization, is about total battlefield logistics, not just one aspect/area/group of suits IMHO. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3452	Posted - 2014.10.23 19:05:00 - [859] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Currently trying to get Logi updates ready for hotfix Echo, but that won't come until after patch 1.9 deployment my current *guess* is we'll be looking at updates to this thread second or third week of Nov. I will of course make efforts to have it in before that if possible, but 1.9 takes priority. Cheers, Cross So am I inferring accurately then that we'll see 1.9 deployed here last week of October or so? My current guess is that it will be deployed along side the patch for EVE so that there is only one extended DT for TQ. That is my deduced/inferred time frame reasoning. (I don't remember the date for the EVE patch off the top of my head but I believe it was early November) See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1191	Posted - 2014.10.26 18:25:00 - [860] - Quote Getting back from a 30 day ban. During that time i received a YoLD.So,this will be one of the last posts i make ITT seeing as my experience will soon be outdated,until Dust comes to PS4 anyway. Let's talk about hoops,the figurative kind of course. In an older post i compared a killing and saving eq,REs and injectors. In this post(s) i will talk about equipment and weapon parity. Let's say you decided to skill KN,which can easily OHK even at ADV level. You invest SP. Open the market,and presto,Pro KN. Hoops:1 -SP Now let's say you want to skill injectors,which only refill 50% at ADV level. You invest SP. Open the market,only to discover that the 100% version is in the loyalty store. Struggle to get into FW solo,or qsync,just to earn meager WP. Buy 100% version from the loyalty store. Hoops:1 -SP 2 -trying to get in FW 3- dealing with FF in FW. 4-forced participation in a CCP designed isk sink,losing fits just to get a few paltry injectors. 5-loss of fits negates any savings the loyalty store offers For killing it is 1,for support it is 5. Taking into consideration the KN will probably be used on a scout with better survival,1 set of KN can last multiple games and be easily replaced when lost. As for the injector,it will probably be used on a logistics suit,a suit which has low eHP/speed and always singled out first. The injector user most likely will lose an injector within the first 50% of the first match they play,then they must q-up for FW again. Support,when it comes to equipment especially,must lose much more than killing does. While the KNer just buys more,the dedicated support player must run the risk of losing whole fits just to obtain a single equipment. How can this be changed? Simple really,just do a bump down. Currently MLT and basic restore 20%,ADV 50%,Pro 80% A bump down would look like this: MLT 20%,basic 50%,ADV 80% Pro 100% Then reduce the fitting cost on the loyalty store version,to mimic weapons. This would eliminate 4 of 5 hoops,making killing and support equal. Bump downs can be used for other equipment as well.(be warned this section is filled with my opinions of certain redundant equipment). Let's start with the logistics bread and butter,the rep tool. Currently,there is a Pro rep tool that actually has almost no validity.The flux version. It can't rep dropsuits enough to compete with the six kin,and can't vehicle rep faster than the A-7 axis an ADV rep tool. It's horrible,in every sense of the word,even its range is overrated when compared to the boundless,AKA the loyalty store version (see a trend here?) How would a bump down work here? Remove the flux,replace it with the boundless. Keep the boundless' current fitting,but give it the fluxs' cost. So,you can use the cheaper six kin,but have less performance. Or use the more expensive boundless,but have better performance. Hives are actually fine IMO,and i don't use scanners and links enough to give a valid opinion on them. Support is being withheld the best equipment,while killing is having everything thrown at them. Let's change that shall we? Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.

KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1397	Posted - 2014.10.30 04:11:00 - [861] - Quote Is there any possibility for squad based uplinks? I ask because way back in time we had a specification for an uplink that had very limited spawns (five as I recall) and the interesting aspect was that it was squad limited. The intention as I understood it was to send in the Scout with one and allow your squad (5? seems wrong with current squad sizes) to attack an objective, counter a push or just make life more interesting for the Red Berries. If the current code base doesn't support it I understand. But if it does I believe it would add a level of entertaining game play. My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3623	Posted - 2014.10.30 04:15:00 - [862] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: Is there any possibility for squad based uplinks? I ask because way back in time we had a specification for an uplink that had very limited spawns (five as I recall) and the interesting aspect was that it was squad limited. The intention as I understood it was to send in the Scout with one and allow your squad (5? seems wrong with current squad sizes) to attack an objective, counter a push or just make life more interesting for the Red Berries. If the current code base doesn't support it I understand. But if it does I believe it would add a level of entertaining game play. I am not sure but I will add an inquiry about squad based links to my list, I am all for diversity of possible game play See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2086	Posted - 2014.10.30 06:36:00 - [863] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Currently trying to get Logi updates ready for hotfix Echo, but that won't come until after patch 1.9 deployment my current *guess* is we'll be looking at updates to this thread second or third week of Nov. I will of course make efforts to have it in before that if possible, but 1.9 takes priority. Cheers, Cross So am I inferring accurately then that we'll see 1.9 deployed here last week of October or so? My current guess is that it will be deployed along side the patch for EVE so that there is only one extended DT for TQ. That is my deduced/inferred time frame reasoning. (I don't remember the date for the EVE patch off the top of my head but I believe it was early November) Nov. 4 Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1210	Posted - 2014.10.30 14:04:00 - [864] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: Is there any possibility for squad based uplinks? I ask because way back in time we had a specification for an uplink that had very limited spawns (five as I recall) and the interesting aspect was that it was squad limited. The intention as I understood it was to send in the Scout with one and allow your squad (5? seems wrong with current squad sizes) to attack an objective, counter a push or just make life more interesting for the Red Berries. If the current code base doesn't support it I understand. But if it does I believe it would add a level of entertaining game play. A version of that type of uplink is still in. Go to the Pro uplink section. "Abyss" is its name. Can deploy 6 at -75% spawn delay. AUR only,it doesn't have an ISK varient. Just add an ISK varient. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 402	Posted - 2014.10.30 17:09:00 - [865] - Quote Meee One wrote: KalOfTheRathi wrote: Is there any possibility for squad based uplinks? I ask because way back in time we had a specification for an uplink that had very limited spawns (five as I recall) and the interesting aspect was that it was squad limited. The intention as I understood it was to send in the Scout with one and allow your squad (5? seems wrong with current squad sizes) to attack an objective, counter a push or just make life more interesting for the Red Berries. If the current code base doesn't support it I understand. But if it does I believe it would add a level of entertaining game play. A version of that type of uplink is still in. Go to the Pro uplink section. "Abyss" is its name. Can deploy 6 at -75% spawn delay. AUR only,it doesn't have an ISK varient. Just add an ISK varient. Pay-to-Win!! Pay-to-Win!!!! Pay-to-Win!!!!1!1!1! hyperventilates, turns blue and falls over Nerf scouts. Because S2W is as bad or worse than P2W. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 408	Posted - 2014.10.31 18:09:00 - [866] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: KalOfTheRathi wrote: Is there any possibility for squad based uplinks? I ask because way back in time we had a specification for an uplink that had very limited spawns (five as I recall) and the interesting aspect was that it was squad limited. The intention as I understood it was to send in the Scout with one and allow your squad (5? seems wrong with current squad sizes) to attack an objective, counter a push or just make life more interesting for the Red Berries. If the current code base doesn't support it I understand. But if it does I believe it would add a level of entertaining game play. A version of that type of uplink is still in. Go to the Pro uplink section. "Abyss" is its name. Can deploy 6 at -75% spawn delay. AUR only,it doesn't have an ISK varient. Just add an ISK varient. Pay-to-Win!! Pay-to-Win!!!! Pay-to-Win!!!!1!1!1! hyperventilates, turns blue and falls over Nerf scouts. Because S2W is as bad or worse than P2W. gets up, dusts self off So I checked on those things last night and unless there was a ninjafix in-between you posting it and I looking for them, you, sir, are incorrect. The 'abyss' link only spawn modifies at -47%, not -75% and there is an LP store variant available (isk+lp) that has the same performance. Crisis, averted. Nerf scouts. Because whether isk, aur or lp they are imbalanced. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Dremel wp Shadow Company HQ Lokun Listamenn 54	Posted - 2014.10.31 19:36:00 - [867] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: KalOfTheRathi wrote: Is there any possibility for squad based uplinks? I ask because way back in time we had a specification for an uplink that had very limited spawns (five as I recall) and the interesting aspect was that it was squad limited. The intention as I understood it was to send in the Scout with one and allow your squad (5? seems wrong with current squad sizes) to attack an objective, counter a push or just make life more interesting for the Red Berries. If the current code base doesn't support it I understand. But if it does I believe it would add a level of entertaining game play. A version of that type of uplink is still in. Go to the Pro uplink section. "Abyss" is its name. Can deploy 6 at -75% spawn delay. AUR only,it doesn't have an ISK varient. Just add an ISK varient. Pay-to-Win!! Pay-to-Win!!!! Pay-to-Win!!!!1!1!1! hyperventilates, turns blue and falls over Nerf scouts. Because S2W is as bad or worse than P2W. gets up, dusts self off So I checked on those things last night and unless there was a ninjafix in-between you posting it and I looking for them, you, sir, are incorrect. The 'abyss' link only spawn modifies at -47%, not -75% and there is an LP store variant available (isk+lp) that has the same performance. Crisis, averted. Nerf scouts. Because whether isk, aur or lp they are imbalanced. Thinking of the amarr faction store Uplink?
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3658	Posted - 2014.10.31 20:31:00 - [868] - Quote Update: I will be creating and linking a new iteration of the proposal after patch 1.9 deploys (and we have the chance to see if it creates any unexpected side effects). Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 6260	Posted - 2014.10.31 20:33:00 - [869] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Update: I will be creating and linking a new iteration of the proposal after patch 1.9 deploys (and we have the chance to see if it creates any unexpected side effects). Cheers, Cross Mechanic points for repairing etc, etc. Just a reminder lol. Big up my friend Charlotte Shields, she won the Brazilian ju jitsu competition!. And she's recovering from cancer!.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 408	Posted - 2014.10.31 20:43:00 - [870] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Update: I will be creating and linking a new iteration of the proposal after patch 1.9 deploys (and we have the chance to see if it creates any unexpected side effects). Cheers, Cross Cool, lets get some work done! edit: Nerf scouts. Their imbalanced prescence is an unexpected side effect whose time has come. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3661	Posted - 2014.11.01 10:50:00 - [871] - Quote Iteration 3 is up, current revision includes the new native armor rep stats. This iteration should be considered in draft form until after the 1.9 patch has been deployed and we have further opportunity to test its effects, I'm just getting a jump on things See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1042	Posted - 2014.11.01 11:11:00 - [872] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Iteration 3 is up, current revision includes the new native armor rep stats. This iteration should be considered in draft form until after the 1.9 patch has been deployed and we have further opportunity to test its effects, I'm just getting a jump on things Just took a quick look, some questions (i'm not so up to date anymore): Are the slot lay-outs the same as the current ones in the 3rd draft? Why the CPU difference between the cal assault and logi, will it work? (at first glance it seems that equipment is more CPU favorable for logis, but what about the shield modules?) something small: Think you mixed the 'current' (no change) & 'proposed' (empty) columns of Scan profile/precision?
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3661	Posted - 2014.11.01 11:17:00 - [873] - Quote RKKR wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Iteration 3 is up, current revision includes the new native armor rep stats. This iteration should be considered in draft form until after the 1.9 patch has been deployed and we have further opportunity to test its effects, I'm just getting a jump on things Just took a quick look, some questions (i'm not so up to date anymore): Are the slot lay-outs the same as the current ones in the 3rd draft? Why the CPU difference between the cal assault and logi, will it work? (at first glance it seems that equipment is more CPU favorable for logis, but what about the shield modules?) something small: Think you mixed the 'current' (no change) & 'proposed' (empty) columns of Scan profile/precision? Slot layouts have not been altered in any of the drafts, High/Low would retain present distribution under the proposal. All CPU and PG changes assume the simultaneous change of the Logistics Role bonus, the increase in which will more than compensate for any lost fittings values on nearly all fits running full racks of equipment (i.e. fits with full equipment may even have a little be extra compared to current, while fits without full sets of equipment will be facing more of a pinch than they do at present). Thanks for the heads up about the possible column mix up, I'll give it a look o7 See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1043	Posted - 2014.11.01 11:31:00 - [874] - Quote Thanks for the quick response, about the column mix up: I just thought you wanted to put the 'no changes' in the proposed-column and add numbers to the current-column, now the 'no changes' is in the current-column (without any numbers).
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1232	Posted - 2014.11.01 12:36:00 - [875] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: RKKR wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Iteration 3 is up, current revision includes the new native armor rep stats. This iteration should be considered in draft form until after the 1.9 patch has been deployed and we have further opportunity to test its effects, I'm just getting a jump on things Just took a quick look, some questions (i'm not so up to date anymore): Are the slot lay-outs the same as the current ones in the 3rd draft? Why the CPU difference between the cal assault and logi, will it work? (at first glance it seems that equipment is more CPU favorable for logis, but what about the shield modules?) something small: Think you mixed the 'current' (no change) & 'proposed' (empty) columns of Scan profile/precision? Slot layouts have not been altered in any of the drafts, High/Low would retain present distribution under the proposal. All CPU and PG changes assume the simultaneous change of the Logistics Role bonus, the increase in which will more than compensate for any lost fittings values on nearly all fits running full racks of equipment (i.e. fits with full equipment may even have a little be extra compared to current, while fits without full sets of equipment will be facing more of a pinch than they do at present). Thanks for the heads up about the possible column mix up, I'll give it a look EDIT: Game is currently in downtime, I will update the stat profile at a later time when it is back up. o7 So cross... Is cal logi going to get +1 equipment,or are scouts going to lose a sidearm? Basic Cal logi has 2 equipment,low base stats,-1 weapon. Scouts have 2 equipment,both weapons. Scouts need to lose either 1 sidearm or 1 equipment. -or- Cal logis need to gain +1 equipment at every teir. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4298	Posted - 2014.11.01 13:25:00 - [876] - Quote I love how you phrase every suggestion in the form of an ultimatum. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
TRULY ELITE WarRavens Capital Punishment. 88	Posted - 2014.11.01 17:04:00 - [877] - Quote Any chance you can buff the rep hives to a 40,60,80 approach. I don't get think this will create unbalance as a rep tool can do this with higher HP/s and unlimited. K-17D Nanohives 20 -> 40 Allotek Nanohives (R) 40 -> 60 Wyrikomi Nanohives 70 -> 80 Also for the Caldari Logi why not add a 2% increase total armour & shields for the nanite injector. Obviously it wouldn't work with 100% needle.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 233	Posted - 2014.11.02 10:51:00 - [878] - Quote Uh, seems like I left this thread too long and I need to catch up. Reading through the iterations today and will comment later. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1233	Posted - 2014.11.02 14:25:00 - [879] - Quote TRULY ELITE wrote: Any chance you can buff the rep hives to a 40,60,80 approach. I don't get think this will create unbalance as a rep tool can do this with higher HP/s and unlimited. K-17D Nanohives 20 -> 40 Allotek Nanohives (R) 40 -> 60 Wyrikomi Nanohives 70 -> 80 Also for the Caldari Logi why not add a 2% increase total armour & shields for the nanite injector. Obviously it wouldn't work with 100% needle. No,this would only allow logistics to be further degraded. Scenario: -damaged,need repair -use logistics as they were ment for (support) or heal self -'but the logi is a whole 6m away,that's too far' -heal self The problem wouldn't be the buff per se,it would be the fact players wouldn't need a logistics when they otherwise would. This would horribly break balance in scouts and assaults favor. Scouts because their two equipment slots,assaults because they would have one less weakness. Heavies would be UP because it would take 2 suits (logi and heavy) to achieve the same effect. More needs to be done to encourage having logistics around,not fitting an assault with hybrids and saying screw logis. Also the Cal logi bonus applies to hybrids to be nearly that same value. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 12	Posted - 2014.11.02 14:39:00 - [880] - Quote Is anyone else concerned about the nanite injector in 1.9 being opt-in instead of opt-out for team revives? Dust 5/14

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4401	Posted - 2014.11.02 14:47:00 - [881] - Quote Z3dog wrote: Is anyone else concerned about the nanite injector in 1.9 being opt-in instead of opt-out for team revives? Yes. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1233	Posted - 2014.11.02 15:11:00 - [882] - Quote Z3dog wrote: Is anyone else concerned about the nanite injector in 1.9 being opt-in instead of opt-out for team revives? Most players probably won't consider using it unless they are ISK poor. Vets will probably never use it. And newer players probably won't know how to use the revive function because there isn't a tutorial for it. Having to request a pick up is like asking to be let to die in a car crash IRL. It makes no sense. "Why didn't you save that guy in the crashed car?" "Because he didn't ask me to." Lolwut? That type of response can get you charged with manslaughter. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 12	Posted - 2014.11.02 15:21:00 - [883] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Z3dog wrote: Is anyone else concerned about the nanite injector in 1.9 being opt-in instead of opt-out for team revives? Yes. Thanks. Guess I'll be unequipping my nanite injectors when 1.9 comes out. Dust 5/14
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3676	Posted - 2014.11.02 18:08:00 - [884] - Quote Z3dog wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Z3dog wrote: Is anyone else concerned about the nanite injector in 1.9 being opt-in instead of opt-out for team revives? Yes. Thanks. Guess I'll be unequipping my nanite injectors when 1.9 comes out. I recommend running a MLT injector for the first two weeks after 1.9 so that you can see the icon if players call for revive and assess directly how often you will have use for the needle. Same with Active Scanners, select the lowest level Active Scanner on the market - that has team scan enabled - and test under battlefield conditions to see what value it does or does not hold for your own play conditions. If everyone tests the new changes rather than assumes effects we can provide more meaningful feedback to CCP regarding the impact and implication of the various changes. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3746	Posted - 2014.11.08 19:32:00 - [885] - Quote Looking for continued feedback on the state of injectors, active scanners, and survivability in 1.9 Also check out the eWar thread to voice your opinions there. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4994	Posted - 2014.11.08 20:11:00 - [886] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Looking for continued feedback on the state of injectors, active scanners, and survivability in 1.9 Also check out the eWar thread to voice your opinions there. Injectors are awesome now. Being able to tell which person needs to be picked up by who is requesting it helps a ton. The problem now is that no one ever uses them because you can't get revives easily anymore. Because of this I suggest that wp is increased to 75 or even 100 since you can make that much easily by repairing a person for a few seconds. We also don't have the problem of people picking up someone in the middle of a gunfight multiple times for 60 points a pop...part of the reason it has never been increased before. Rewards are still an issue with logistics. Resupply, transport assist, and scanner rewards should all be increased as well. Triage and team spawn should be decreased. I find myself much more survivable in 1.9 using a dampener and precision on my logi, although I loved rattati's idea about giving logistics a better precision while assaults have better dampening. Team scans definitely helps the meta as profile dampeners are much more useful again and scouts show up on radar more frequently . They can also be broadcasted to nearby blue dots so that being a logi can be more team based instead of only helping your squad. Scanners NEED to be rebalanced in terms of stats. Proto Flux is overpowered and Proximity is the worst scanner in the game. Shorter range scanners should have wide angles while longer range ones should be small angles. This allows the total scanned area to be more equal for all scanners instead of the flux being able to scan an entire map while the proximity only scans a small patch of ground in front of your feet. HOWEVER, scanners do not need a nerf to range and Rattati is very wrong in thinking that they do. To add onto that, duration of all scanners should be nerfed instead, but only if you also slightly reduce recharge delay as well. Quantum scanners need to keep a significant advantage. Introducing squad-only scanners with the current durations would then be the next step. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1047	Posted - 2014.11.09 12:27:00 - [887] - Quote It wouldn't hurt to make it more clear that you have to ask for help if you want to revive. I keep forgetting itself and it seems that you can see who the dead fellow on the ground is now with an e empty health bar when looking at them. I found a few of them who where lying there for a long time before respawning without asking for help. Haven't really noticed less revives yet, but I usually only use them when running in a squad anyway. My survivability seems to be the same, but haven't played that much yet.
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1047	Posted - 2014.11.10 09:58:00 - [888] - Quote Cross, Why is CCP even considering to change the orbital system (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=179453&find=unread) before adjusting the support role? It's already no fun to run around when you have used up all your deployable equipment and now they want to make it even more useless by making it more easier than it is now to destroy equipment. Why can't they fix the support role first before implementing this? (enough ideas were already given in the past)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4776	Posted - 2014.11.10 10:29:00 - [889] - Quote RKKR wrote: Cross, Why is CCP even considering to change the orbital system (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=179453&find=unread) before adjusting the support role? It's already no fun to run around when you have used up all your deployable equipment and now they want to make it even more useless by making it more easier than it is now to destroy equipment. Why can't they fix the support role first before implementing this? (enough ideas were already given in the past) The game is too dependent upon equipment spam. Logis are too squishy but every match is decided by who can vomit out the mpst equipment. This needs to be fixed or logis will simply swing 180 and stay a problem in the game. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1047	Posted - 2014.11.10 10:51:00 - [890] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The game is too dependent upon equipment spam. Yes they should focus on this problem, not a counter to this problem.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4777	Posted - 2014.11.10 10:56:00 - [891] - Quote RKKR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: The game is too dependent upon equipment spam. Yes they should focus on this problem, not a counter to this problem. Nerfing the utter crap out of, or removing uplinks entirely is the only way to deal with the problem without providing a counter. Your logic is flawed. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1049	Posted - 2014.11.10 18:01:00 - [892] - Quote You haven't thought about ways that makes the game less dependent on equipment spam in the first place did you? Well you are completely right, my logic is flawed, CCP will never implement different mechanics, let's wrap this thread up. Have a nice day.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1257	Posted - 2014.11.11 01:08:00 - [893] - Quote RKKR wrote: Cross, Why is CCP even considering to change the orbital system (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=179453&find=unread) before adjusting the support role? It's already no fun to run around when you have used up all your deployable equipment and now they want to make it even more useless by making it more easier than it is now to destroy equipment. Why can't they fix the support role first before implementing this? (enough ideas were already given in the past) My guess would be that support costs them AUR. Why skill a Pro suit when a logi can keep you alive in ADV? Why buy boosters? How do you lose AUR gear if a logi can negate it? Simple,create more ways to attack,but leave support lacking. Deploy hives,EMP drop. Repping a heavy,solo strike. It's all being intentionally designed to make supporting increasingly more difficult,and with solo strikes,impossible. For example,during the 'sidearm balancing' BP were made so strong they could OHK an untanked Min logi. This made eWAR a fatal choice over eHP mods. Yet logistics saw no buffs,neither did rep tools,or any other equipment for that matter. Hell,look at cross' suggested buffs. Logistics will be just fast enough to be chased down by every suit in the game. Logistics will have just enough stamina to fail escaping from every suit in the game. Logistics will have just enough to fail at everything,like it does right now. And with the recent crazy damage increases it's all superficial. Eg. Logistics has 100 eHP,guns do 50 Logistics gets 200 eHP,guns now do 100 Until logistics is seen as a specialist,and not just the assaults re.tarded cousin it'll never get specialist stats worthy of it. It'll always require a squad,in a game where literally every other suit doesn't. It's a ridiculous requirement just to not kill things. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1257	Posted - 2014.11.11 01:19:00 - [894] - Quote RKKR wrote: You haven't thought about ways that makes the game less dependent on equipment spam in the first place did you? Well you are completely right, my logic is flawed, CCP will never implement different mechanics, let's wrap this thread up. Have a nice day. Well,there is a way to reduce equipment spam. Remove basic variants. Remove flux variants of hives and rep tools. For hives,have the Ishukone guaged as the standard. Flux hives only add 1-2m with 0 other benefits. For uplinks have a flux variant become the standard. -or- 1 set of equipment per type per suit. The flux rep tool is a waste. The boundless repairs suits faster,at nearly the same range. The A-7 Axis,an ADV tool,repairs vehicles faster. Remove the flux and replace it with the boundless. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1678	Posted - 2014.11.11 01:26:00 - [895] - Quote You know, a lot of information, can't process as I'm at 2 hours of sleep in the past 40 hours, but I would like to pop in this conversation at some point. My sister had her first kid early this morning, so I've been at the hospital quite a bit today (everyone is happy and healthy, btw). But what's with this 'removing undocumented CPU reduction on Nanocircuitry'? It says it right on the skillbook, just because CCP is lazy and never readded it to the skill description doesn't mean we should remove it. We need more passives, not less. If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1257	Posted - 2014.11.11 01:28:00 - [896] - Quote ResistanceGTA wrote: You know, a lot of information, can't process as I'm at 2 hours of sleep in the past 40 hours, but I would like to pop in this conversation at some point. But what's with this 'removing undocumented CPU reduction on Nanocircuitry'? It says it right on the skillbook, just because CCP is lazy and never readded it to the skill description doesn't mean we should remove it. We need more passives, not less. The problem is that other suits besides logistics gets the bonus too. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 836	Posted - 2014.11.11 07:28:00 - [897] - Quote Meee One wrote: ResistanceGTA wrote: You know, a lot of information, can't process as I'm at 2 hours of sleep in the past 40 hours, but I would like to pop in this conversation at some point. But what's with this 'removing undocumented CPU reduction on Nanocircuitry'? It says it right on the skillbook, just because CCP is lazy and never readded it to the skill description doesn't mean we should remove it. We need more passives, not less. The problem is that other suits besides logistics gets the bonus too. ...why is this a problem? The description doesn't claim it's a logi specific bonus, after all. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2146	Posted - 2014.11.11 07:29:00 - [898] - Quote Meee One wrote: ResistanceGTA wrote: You know, a lot of information, can't process as I'm at 2 hours of sleep in the past 40 hours, but I would like to pop in this conversation at some point. But what's with this 'removing undocumented CPU reduction on Nanocircuitry'? It says it right on the skillbook, just because CCP is lazy and never readded it to the skill description doesn't mean we should remove it. We need more passives, not less. The problem is that other suits besides logistics gets the bonus too. Not seeing how this is a bad thing. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4497	Posted - 2014.11.11 14:03:00 - [899] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Meee One wrote: ResistanceGTA wrote: You know, a lot of information, can't process as I'm at 2 hours of sleep in the past 40 hours, but I would like to pop in this conversation at some point. But what's with this 'removing undocumented CPU reduction on Nanocircuitry'? It says it right on the skillbook, just because CCP is lazy and never readded it to the skill description doesn't mean we should remove it. We need more passives, not less. The problem is that other suits besides logistics gets the bonus too. Not seeing how this is a bad thing. Speaking as a logi, I don't see an issue either, really. I know it's always bugged shayz, tbh I'm not sure if that's because it just doesn't say it in the main skill screen or if he has an actual issue with the bonus itself. Nanohives are the one piece of equipment that you really can't make an argument against everyone using. If you don't want assaults, for example, using nanohives, then you may as well just take the EQ slot away. As for "solving" EQ spam, there's a few reasonable solutions around. You could streamline the EQ line, like Meee suggests, which is OK. I've suggested a skill-based limitation on deployable equipment as well. (the website is not letting me look at my favorites right now and I'm too lazy to find it otherwise) A much better solution, imo, was brought up by vell0cet. If it is technically feasible to do, then it's unquestionably the best solution I've ever read. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3764	Posted - 2014.11.12 08:40:00 - [900] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Meee One wrote: ResistanceGTA wrote: You know, a lot of information, can't process as I'm at 2 hours of sleep in the past 40 hours, but I would like to pop in this conversation at some point. But what's with this 'removing undocumented CPU reduction on Nanocircuitry'? It says it right on the skillbook, just because CCP is lazy and never readded it to the skill description doesn't mean we should remove it. We need more passives, not less. The problem is that other suits besides logistics gets the bonus too. Not seeing how this is a bad thing. Speaking as a logi, I don't see an issue either, really. I know it's always bugged shayz, tbh I'm not sure if that's because it just doesn't say it in the main skill screen or if he has an actual issue with the bonus itself. Nanohives are the one piece of equipment that you really can't make an argument against everyone using. If you don't want assaults, for example, using nanohives, then you may as well just take the EQ slot away. As for "solving" EQ spam, there's a few reasonable solutions around. You could streamline the EQ line, like Meee suggests, which is OK. I've suggested a skill-based limitation on deployable equipment as well. (the website is not letting me look at my favorites right now and I'm too lazy to find it otherwise) A much better solution, imo, was brought up by vell0cet. If it is technically feasible to do, then it's unquestionably the best solution I've ever read. Undocumented skill effects are generally a bad thing, in the case of this one it is problematic because it effects the interplay between classes, races, equipment types and roles. Either we could add effects to all equipment related skills, rebalanced everything, or remove this undocumented effect. The point being that balancing around something which isn't clearly stated or explained is a consistent mess / pervasive distortion. To be clear I am all for every skill providing more than unlocks, but that is its own polish/balance pass so even if an effect like this is ultimately applied to all equipment related skills (something I wouldn't oppose at all) removing the undocumented effect now is still best practice with regards to balance and assessing clearly the state of suits and equipment. 0.02 ISK Cross PS ~ I love my new Apex Minmatar Logi suit, call me addicted to Fac War but I just find it fun to run faction suits in faction battles See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3764	Posted - 2014.11.12 08:44:00 - [901] - Quote Also, just to reiterate, make sure you are getting your feedback into the eWar thread as in part how that balance iteration plays out will define some of our course for further polish on the Logi Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 453	Posted - 2014.11.12 18:34:00 - [902] - Quote As an Update, Logi/Support survivability is still extremely bad unless heavily tanked, then its just pretty bad. The iteration 3 sheet proposals really do not do enough to raise logi frames to an even survival performance level, especially under PC conditions and doubly especially with the continued reticence about balancing light frames, which are overwhelmingly prominent in PC. 80 extra hp was barely enough as a start, stripping it to 40 even with the addition of a couple innate reps/second is laughable. The movement speed "buff" I don't see really being much of one, its still short what Assaults are capable of and Assaults only pull it off because they have the extra tank to withstand the combat while they track their targets. And cpu/pg nerfs instated because of the possibility of equipment changes? Thats not logical, if we decide to and how to change equipment THEN we can debate adjusting cpu/pg. At this point in time its premature to include them. If anything based on conditions in 1.9 we should include the addition of sidearms to all the logi frames since every other frame has them AND they need to be "balanced", like scouts. Could someone point me towards this Nanocircutry discussion please? I've not been forum'ing the last couple days and my initial looking around for the thread has not been successful. I'd like to read the proposal in depth. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1289	Posted - 2014.11.14 16:23:00 - [903] - Quote Just want to point something out... Scouts have been running at 8m/s permascanning in a 360 degree radius for months,no nerf. Logistics gets a team scanner to help their team,plans on nerfing 2 days after implemented. Logistics is even specifically mentioned in the eWAR post. Funny how a "fully skilled scout" scanning 100% of the time passively isn't OP enough to warrant a nerf. But a "fully skilled logistics" scanning once every 15-30 seconds is. Even a 50% range nerf,which will completely destroy active scanners. And you notice the whole premise behind the eWAR thread is yet another buff to assaults. 500 base eHP,high speed,8-9 slots apparently wasn't enough. Plates and extenders will add to your signature,guess what logistics needs to compensate its low eHP? It isn't dampeners,because logistics isn't innately fast enough to make them viable. Prepare for heavies to passively scan you down. Assaults have enough base eHP that extra is an option. The eWAR thread is what you get when you ignore a whole mediums frame class in favor of another. Well, logistics aren't exactly being ignored,they are being nerfed,in favor of assaults again. What's next? Assaults getting 2 equipment slots? Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 217	Posted - 2014.11.14 16:32:00 - [904] - Quote Y'all better stop trying to turn this into a "how shall we best nerf the logi" thread, otherwise, it just might happen. Ebola makes me feel all warm and squishy inside.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1289	Posted - 2014.11.14 16:39:00 - [905] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Y'all better stop trying to turn this into a "how shall we best nerf the logi" thread, otherwise, it just might happen. Lol 'might'. The eWAR thread is one big nerf aimed straight at the logistics class. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1289	Posted - 2014.11.14 16:53:00 - [906] - Quote Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. I still like this idea. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 843	Posted - 2014.11.14 17:28:00 - [907] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Y'all better stop trying to turn this into a "how shall we best nerf the logi" thread, otherwise, it just might happen. I think we all know it's coming either way. Hey, when it comes to CCP, might as as well expect the worst. And one of the main problems is that the loudest voices talking about changes to the logistics role aren't people like you. Who, you know, actually know what they are talking about. So, I'll blame you, Orion :P Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 471	Posted - 2014.11.14 17:48:00 - [908] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Y'all better stop trying to turn this into a "how shall we best nerf the logi" thread, otherwise, it just might happen. Those aren't Logis talking, they're scout loyalist alts more concerned with preserving inherent scout frame dominance than overall game balance. The most unfortunate part about it is that, most likely (hopefully) due to limits in unbiased analytical resouces, Rattati, the CPM and whoever else dev-side is listening to them . Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 471	Posted - 2014.11.14 18:05:00 - [909] - Quote Meee One wrote: Just want to point something out... Scouts have been running at 8m/s permascanning in a 360 degree radius for months,no nerf. Logistics gets a team scanner to help their team,plans on nerfing 2 days after implemented. Logistics is even specifically mentioned in the eWAR post. Funny how a "fully skilled scout" scanning 100% of the time passively isn't OP enough to warrant a nerf. But a "fully skilled logistics" scanning once every 15-30 seconds is. Even a 50% range nerf,which will completely destroy active scanners. snip The eWAR thread is what you get when you ignore a whole mediums frame class in favor of another. Well, logistics aren't exactly being ignored,they are being nerfed,in favor of assaults,again. What's next? Assaults getting 2 equipment slots? No, you are not alone in seeing this for what it is, the further outpacing of Logistics base stats by the already advantaged other suits. Months of gross imbalance perpetuated even longer by the "fixes", most of which just create a wash of performance, so that while the circumstances change the imbalances remain. And the failure to directly address those imbalances just lead to balancing attempts that will never be truly effective because none actually addresses the core imbalanced elements. So sad to watch, like watching a great major corporation who provided a great service still fail and be forced into bankruptcy because it wouldn't address its executive bloat and instead hid behind accounting tricks until the damage was too far done. The execs party it up and parachute, everybody else is fired and the world loses an excellent service provider. **** is de-press-ing. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 472	Posted - 2014.11.14 18:12:00 - [910] - Quote Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. I still like this idea. I still hate this idea. Sorry dude. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 844	Posted - 2014.11.14 18:16:00 - [911] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: ...... I still like this idea. I still hate this idea. Sorry dude. ^Seconded. Though not sorry about it. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4542	Posted - 2014.11.14 18:31:00 - [912] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: ...... I still like this idea. I still hate this idea. Sorry dude. ^Seconded. Though not sorry about it. Also in Zaria's camp. Makes no sense in an FPS. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 474	Posted - 2014.11.14 18:40:00 - [913] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: ...... I still like this idea. I still hate this idea. Sorry dude. ^Seconded. Though not sorry about it. Also in Zaria's camp. Makes no sense in an FPS. It makes sense, my issue is it's creating even more of a "soft target" out of the class. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2014.11.14 20:00:00 - [914] - Quote So, after reading over the thread, and going over the current 3rd iteration proposals, as well as brushing up on Nanohive Alchemy (it's SCIENCE!), and forming a few ideas of my own, I decided to collate, distill, and then post my thoughts. This will probably be long, and might end up being a multi-part post. You have been warned- but please do bear with me. So, my initial impressions of the 3rd iteration proposals: for the most part, I think there's a lot of solid suggestions and hard work that went into it, and it looks really good. There are some parts I don't care for, and I'll get to that, but a few things immediately jumped out at me: Nanocircuitry skill bonus "bugfix"? Why should we remove the bonus, when it's actually a good model of what all of the equipment skills should do- not that they should all provide a fitting reduction, but that all of the equipment skills should also have a skill bonus attached to them. IMO, the so-called bugfix that should be applied is to simply alter the skill description string so that it lists the -5% CPU requirement per level bonus. Demolitions skill bonus. I mostly like this idea, except that I fear that RE's will become even more brokenly powerful than they are right now. It's still very common for them to be spammed at stuff, and I think that this would make the problem even worse. My personal solution would be to apply a nerf to RE damage to accompany the skill bonus addition- the particular value should be sufficient to put RE's at a 5% net damage increase at L5 Demolitions, with L4 Demo being the same damage as presently. Logistics Role Bonus Buff. This seems nice, but I feel that the bonus as-constructed ends up like the current cloak fitting bonus on scout suits- the net result is that at the low-investment end it's still incredibly difficult to fit the relevant, fitting-bonused mods and build a good fit. Even with L3 scout skill, I find it incredibly difficult to build a solid Amarr scout fit using the STD-level suit and a basic clack- I can only wonder at how much more difficult it would be for a newbro with racial scout L1. The logi bonus change ends up with the same problem, IMO. It's not as bad with logi suits due to the difference in equipment fittings, slot layouts, and CPU/PG budgets on logi suits, but I'd wager it's still a problem. As an example, I currently have Dropsuit Core Upgrades L5, Dropsuit Engineering L4, and Amarr Logi L5. Back when I had Engineering L3 and AmLogi L4, to build a fit that was survivable while prioritizing equipment required that I fit either a CR or ACR as my light weapon. I was able to shuffle a few mods around- mostly by downgrading my repper mod and upgrading to Logi 5 and Engineering 4, and fit my preferred ARR. I would recommend as a fix, to apply a flat Role Bonus of -20% CPU/PG fitting requirement of equipment, and then add a -6% CPU/PG requirement per level for equipment. At level 1 racial logi, this equates to a -26% CPU/PG requirement on equipment mods, which is quite slick, IMO. If that proves to much, then I would say scale back to perhaps -15% role bonus, and -7%/level bonus. Logi Bonus works on Clacks. Simply put, with the current level of bonus, I don't see this as even slightly a problem. Even with the bonus doubled, I really don't see it as an issue. Clacks are equipment, and Logis getting reduced Clack fittings doesn't seem like an issue- clacks suck CPU/PG like nothing else in the game, and require a Logi to sacrifice a great deal to be effective with them. Moreover, clacks no longer provide nearly as much active damping as they did on release- STD clacks provide no damping bonus whatsoever, so even if a logi is "invisible", which in practice is highly dependent on the lighting conditions and mood of a map, then they still show up on TACNET. In short, I don't really see a problem with Logis being able to get a fitting discount on Clacks. It's an incredibly niche, and honestly kind of dumb and/or "lulzy" fit, and because of that I see no reason to remove it. It just seems like an artificial limitation on the desired sandbox of DUST. That being said, if someone could provide substantial, well-reasoned, and hard evidence that clacky logis would become the Next Big Thing and FOTM in/of DUST, then I could probably be swayed into changing my opinion. Now, on to some of the Stat Changes: First off, I generally like the slight buff to basic armor/shield values- I haven't checked the others, but the proposed change for the Amarr Logi generally looks like the intent is to nestle Logi base health values almost perfectly in the middle of scouts and assaults. This seems like an excellent start. However, I don't see anything about slot layout parity... which is already the case for the PRO GalLogi suit (3/5 high low), and all of the MinLogi line. At the very least, I'd like the slot layout of my Amarr Logi to be 1/3 STD, and 2/4 ADV. At PRO AmLogi, I think I would honestly be okay with 3/4 or 2/5- but the STD/ADV AmLogi slot layouts are a relic of a bygone age, and really need to be changed. I'm also fairly confident that the Caldari and Gallente logis need some slot layout work at STD/ADV- especially the poor CalLogi, with only 2 equips and no sidearm to compensate at STD (side note: please give the AmLogi a 3rd equip at STD). The only other standout issue I see is that sprint speed is still slower than the assault- IMO sprint speed should be equal between assaults and logis, with logis having less stamina. This means that yes, a logi will end up falling behind a bunch of assaults... but only after running for 20+ seconds. Increased sprint speed would also improve, IMO, the ability of logis to perform triage/medic duties when carrying a needle. Pretty much ran out of space on this post, so yes, this is going to be a multi-part deal. Grab some popcorn, and something to drink. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 474	Posted - 2014.11.14 20:10:00 - [915] - Quote busts out popcorn, minds his bbq from afar Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2014.11.14 20:44:00 - [916] - Quote Part the second! Quick Thoughts on Needles. Maybe a little change to the low-end needles? Say, 40% armor-on-revive for the MLT/STD needles, and 60% for the ADV? This incidentally builds a nice progression between the MLT/STD, ADV, PRO, and LP specialist needles- each time you go up in grade, you get an additional 20%. Seems much cleaner, than the current 30%/50%/80% for STD/ADV/PRO, with LP specialist at 100%. More Thoughts on Logi Mobility. When running my AmLogi suit, which is generally a case of "run Logi until scouts make me really mad or I just feel ultra-fat or scroog-ish", I find that I generally wish I could sprint faster more than walk faster. Certainly, more health would be nice, but IMO more base speed is really where it's at. Maybe it's because I just run armor tanks more, so Kincats tend to be a much bigger tradeoff than for a shield suit, or maybe it's just that it's easier to get useful tank than it is to get useful speed. But overall, I'd argue for a sprint speed buff over a movement speed buff. A Brief Detour on MedFrame EWAR. I perused the opening and first page or two of the EWAR thread, and... honestly, I'm not impressed. Granted, I've got a few ideas that would likely provoke reactions ranging from "that's pretty drastic" to "omahgerrd scout hater tryin to nurf scouts!!1!", but such is the price of genius (I jest, of course... about the genius part). Overall, I think the only change that seemed particularly interesting, and potentially meta-shaking, is the Logi/Assault EWAR dynamic; that being that a Logi has better scan precision, but Assaults have lower scan profile. The suggested values would incidentally always allow a Logi to see an Assault and vice versa, but the caveat is that Heavies would have more difficulty seeing assaults... though it's not like heavy EWAR is useful anyways, so that's cool too. Thoughts on Skill Buff Proposals. I quite frankly automatically dislike Method 1. It feels overly contrived and would could potentially eclipse an ADS as "most SP-intensive role in the game". It also seems like it would require a client-side patch. Such an update isn't out of the question (ref Uprising 1.9), but I feel that changes to the Logi Racial skill bonuses are best left as things which can be hotfixed server side. As far as Methods 2/2b and 4... I'm not too crazy about Methods 2 or 4, since I actually refuse to skill into rep tools at present because of reasons, and I run Amarr Logi Method 2b though... Get a big bonus to the racial equipment, and then a lesser bonus to the other 3 "BIG FOUR" equips? I really like this idea. I will, of course, fully admit that part of the reason I like this idea is that it gives the Amarr Logi an Active Scanner precision bonus, which I like, given that scouts are my mortal enemy as a Logi. Going over Method 3/3b, it looks to be mostly in the same position as Method 2 and 4- I'd feel like I'm wasting half the skill bonus because I find repping to be fairly boring and I- for the present at least- refuse to skill into rep tools. Equipment Changes. First off, let me get the dunce cap for myself, as I only just now noticed the annotation about adjusting RE damage to compensate for the Demolitions skill bonus change. I have already given my opinion on Logi/Clack relationships, so I won't repeat myself here; Proxy changes look good; the only thing I can think of is that might be interesting to swap Proxy/RE positions on the skill tree, with Proxy's being unlocked at L1/L3/L5, and RE's at L2/L4/L5. Just going over RE's a third time, the trigger delay suggestions look good. Repair tool changes look like they'd be pretty good, but I don't use Reppers, so I don't consider myself qualified to comment in detail on the matter. While within the triage gear range, the recommended Needle changes look fantastic, barring the technical difficulties that have come to light, IIRC. Generally liking the nanohive proposal, though I have some more in-depth comments I'd like to make on that subject. Tabling of equipment ISK cost is potentially a poor choice, given that Rattati did normalize variant costs for most weapons- see the Market for how the RR and ARR now have the same ISK pricing for a given tier (I love that change so much). Link changes are where I'm a little bit iffy, but like nanos, I'd like to make a more in-depth commentary on them. I do want to take a quick moment and touch on the internal balance of the Scanner variants. First off, why is there no Flux scanner at ADV? Seriously, we have a STD-level model, and we have a PRO version, but no ADV? Seems pretty wonky to me. Next, the ADV-level Stable scanner needs more of a drawback; currently it just ends with ISK cost being the only drawback compared to even the ADV-level basic scanner. Also, why are all of the theoretically very flexible scanners chained to the proto tiers? Why does the Proxy scanner have such a ** scan angle, and the Proto Flux scanner have an amazeballs scan angle? Why does the Focused scanner have twice the PG usage, and ** cooldown/recharge? I'll all for the Focused having limitations, but it just seems overly constrained into uselessness when it comes down to it. As for how I'd fix that... well, that'll have to wait for Part the Third, because of character limits. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2014.11.14 21:21:00 - [917] - Quote This has gotten to be much longer than I thought it would be... hopefully it will be helpful feedback at least. On to Part the Third! Fixing Active Scanners, You Say? Yes, I did indeed say /fails at puns. So, how to fix active scanners: 1. Flux variant added at ADV, since we already have STD/PRO versions 2. Stable variant added at STD/PRO; Stable variants have the same paint time (5 secs) as regular scanners, but a longer cooldown (20 seconds instead of 15). This helps give a tradeoff to using a Stable scanner, in addition to the ISK cost. Perhaps a slight nerf to Stable-variant precision would also be appropriate, as well. 3. Proximity variant added at ADV; swap Proxy/Proto Flux scan angles. This will simultaneously tone down the Proto Flux and make Proxy Scanners a desirable gizmo. For the curious, this means that the Proto Flux scanner will have a 45 degree scan angle, while Proxy Scanners will have a 90 degree scan angle; given the much shorter range of Proxy scanners, and the MUCH longer range of Flux scanners, I think this would be entirely appropriate. 4. Slightly reduce Focused scanner cooldown. IIRC, it's currently an 5 second paint time with 40 second cooldown. I would recommend bringing it down to 35 seconds, as a trial run. Eventually it may need to go down further, but I would recommend no less than 25 seconds cooldown for the Focused scanner. Nanohive Commentary (Finally). So, nanos. Well, to start, as I mentioned, I like the direction that we're going with them- reduce the cluster capacity of each individual hive, but then increase the number of hives carried to match the total cluster count that we currently have. This being said, I think that we need to retool hives a bit. First off, let's just completely get rid of Flux hives. An increased area of resupply is of zero utility in almost any situation imaginable. About the only time I can think that a Flux hive would be useful, would be if it repped armor. Which would make it either a Flux (R) or Triage hive, depending on the exact particulars. The ADV-level X-3 Quantum nanohive is somewhat similar; the only advantage it offers is an increased resupply rate. It's certainly convenient, but I can't think of any reason to carry X-3 Quantum hives over K-2 hives, considering that X-3s cost more ISK and CPU to fit. My recommendation would be to convert the X-3 Quantum hives into an ADV-level dedicated Triage hive, to provide a pure triage hive at a lower-level. There's also potential in introducing a STD-level Triage hive to complement such a proposed X-3 Triage and the traditional Wyki Triage hives. Now we get to the part that will probably be considered, if not outright controversial, then at least very radical. It's quite simple. We retool the K17/D (R) and Allotek (R) nanohives to be more like the Compact nanohive, but you simply carry more of them at the high-end. IMO, the K17/D (R) and Allotek (R) hives are the logical extension of the Compact nanohive, merely as a larger, higher-capacity, lower-rate solution. IMO, this is... subpar. Primarily because there seems to be a disconnect between the STD-level Compact and the higher-end rep+resupply hives. A desire for both reps and ammo would best be fulfilled by simply providing a higher-tier Compact hive variant wherein you carry more hives. Here's the proposed statblock, along with the recommended X-3 Quantum to X-3 Triage change: STD-level Compact Nanohives: change armor rep rate from 50 HP/s to 40 HP/s. This will become obvious momentarily. K17/D (R) to K17/D Compact: from 2 max deployed, 2 carried, to 2 deployed, 3 carried; 48 clusters->25 clusters, resupply rate 7.5%->25%, armor repair rate 20 HP/s->40 HP/s, effective range from 6 meters->2 meters. Fitting requirements would change from 63 CPU/12 PG to 25 CPU/5 PG- there is a slight (5 CPU/1 PG) discount for the equivalent of carrying three compact hives as a single K17/D Compact module over carrying them separately. Allotek (R) to Allotek Compact: more or less, the only difference between the K17/D Compact and Allotek Compact would be as follows: 2 max active, 4 carried, 35 CPU/7 PG. While the discount isn't quite as good by percentage, it's still the case that you can fit an Allotek Compact for less CPU/PG- and especially less slots- than the equivalent number of traditional compact nanos. X-3 Quantum to X-3 Triage: more or less, the changes are quite simple: remove resupply rate, add a 55 HP/s rep rate, and then change the name from "Quantum" to "Triage". Incidentally, this then creates a stepped variance between Compact and Triage Hives. Compact reps at 40 HP/s, and resupplies ammo, and has really low fitting requirements, but has a tiny AoE. ADV Triage has a large AoE, 15 more reps per second for 55 HP/s, but has higher fitting reqs and can't resupply ammo. PRO Triage has the same drawbacks, with the added advantage of 70 HP/s- nearly double that of Compact rep rate. With this being said, I by no means consider this a definitive concept- there are probably ways to integrate ADV-level Triage hives and ADV/PRO level Compact hives (which would best be implemented as "not better hives, but more carried", IMO) with the existing dual-purpose and resupply hives. However, there is no one in the world who could convince me that the PRO Flux hives have any use or even a reason to exist, and I highly doubt that there exists a person who can convince me of the utility of the ADV-level Quantum hives. Since there's only about 500 characters left, I must now confine my drop uplink analysis to a fourth post. This is turning into the forum equivalent of a full-length movie, and I still have no idea where it will end. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2014.11.14 21:55:00 - [918] - Quote So, now we're at part four, and hopefully this will be the last part. For those who may be wondering, any edits to the above were minor syntax corrections. Drop Uplink Analysis. So, Links. I think the biggest thing that jumps out at me is this: Why do we need sixty spawns worth of links? I mean, that's nearly four times as many players are on a team, and more than a third the total clone count of a Dom or Skimish match. It just seems ridiculously overkill. I mean, currently due to how link mechanics are structured, it sort of makes sense... but that has more to do with the fact that we're not carrying very many links in total. The expectation almost seems like a link is supposed to be destroyed or made irrelevant by changing battle conditions than to be completely expended. There's also the issue of how this change interacts with the Amarr Logi bonus. Currently, the referenced proto links have 20 spawns per link, with 3 carried. With the AmLogi bonus, this becomes 30 spawns per link, with 3 carried, for a total of 90 spawns. Using the proposed numbers of 5 spawns/link, 12 links carried... I arrive at a whopping one hundred eighty potential spawns. 180! That's more than ten times as many players per team, and is 20% more than the total clone count per team of any game mode! Currently, with maxed out AmLogi and Link skills, the AmLogi provides a 50% increase in potential spawns with basic, Flux, and Stable-variant proto links. Under the proposal as-stated, however, this goes to an insane 300% increase. Which leads to a very important question: Is the Amarr Logi bonus broken, in reference to the proposal, or was it merely the victim of unintended consequence. I submit that it is the former- I only thought to examine this when I was thinking about how Quantum-variant links seem rather useless to me, as an Amarr Logi. Let me explain: the Amarr Logi bonus includes a +2 spawn count per level value. At max skills, this is +10 spawn count for every link deployed. Obviously, this seems pretty cool. In practice, however, it's quite lackluster. Quantum-variant links, which generally provide a +33% to +50% spawn count bonus, IIRC, either make this bonus irrelevant and/or useless, or the inverse occurs- an Amarr Logi player has no reason to equip Quantum links, as the likelihood that they will expend as many as 40 spawns (proto Quantum links, IIRC, are 30 spawns/link) is incredibly low. Not only is that nearly 33% of the teams total clone reserve in Dom/Skirmish modes, thus meaning it's actually paradoxically bad for an AmLogi to provide forty spawns from a single link and have every single one used up, but it's also far more likely that the link will be found and then popped, or rendered irrelevant to battle conditions depending on where the fighting is heaviest at a particular moment. At which point I surmised that Quantum links could very likely be removed from the game with zero ill effect. At the same time, I also noticed that: 1. There is no Stable Link variant at ADV, but there is at STD and PRO. More or less, the "Flux Scanner" problem. 2. Flux links quickly obsolete basic links; the only downside is ISK cost, but the benefit is a faster spawn time- significantly so if the deployer uses an AmLogi suit. Flux links have the same spawn count and fitting requirements as basic links, making the problem that much worse. 3. Gauged links are very nice, but suffer from being restricted to proto-level, and IMO should really be limited to "you get to carry more, but you can only deploy the same amount". Gauged nanohives have the same problem as well. They also suffer from consisting of "+1 carried, +1 active", which seems odd that there is a specific variant for, given that STD links are "1 active, 2 carried", and ADV links are currently "2 active, 2 carried"; I'll note a solution momentarily. As far as solutions, I offer the following, in no particular order: ---Reduce the number of links carried. My gut says to cut it by half, to 6 max carried, as it just feels weird that I'd be able to carry more individual links than nanos. However, I think it would be more reasonable to cut it down to 8 carried instead of 12. ---Give flux links an actual drawback. My personal opinion is that flux links should have a reduced spawn count; under the proposal I would recommend instead that flux links have fewer total carried; if basic links are cut down to 8 carried, then flux should be 4 or 5 carried, IMO. If basic link carry capacity is retained as-is, then I would recommend 6 flux uplinks carried, with 5 spawns per link. ---With your proposal, I would recommend that Quantum links consist of fewer carried, but with more spawns; as an example, proto Quantum links would have 10 spawns per link; under the current proposal I would recommend 6 links carried- this then creates a dynamic of "more spawns, but less links", making Quantum links a sort of 'low-maintenance' variant. If my suggestion of reducing the carried link value to 8 were to be implemented, then I would recommend 4-5 links carried for Quantum links. ---Introduce a Stable link variant at ADV level, as it doesn't make any sense as to why there are STD and PRO stable links, but not ADV Stable links. ---Remove Gauged equipment variants and adjust other variants accordingly. Under the current system, this would look like: 2 active/3 carried for ADV level Links/Nanos, and 3 active/4 carried for PRO level Links/Nanos. Under the proposal- which I like much better, BTW- I do not see any reason that we couldn't just roll Gauged variants into the basic model. As far as a potential adjustment to equipment fitting costs to make them more difficult to mount to non-Logi suits, I'll sit out on that for the moment; for one, it's currently tabled, and for two, I'd need to organize my thoughts on it. And I am (finally) finished. I hope this is very helpful to Cross, and other posters. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 478	Posted - 2014.11.14 22:34:00 - [919] - Quote still munching popcorn sees that theres 4 full pages to digest, decides to wait to finish grilling first then will sit and read Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 216	Posted - 2014.11.15 04:36:00 - [920] - Quote Meee One wrote: Just want to point something out... Scouts have been running at 8m/s permascanning in a 360 degree radius for months,no nerf. Logistics gets a team scanner to help their team,plans on nerfing 2 days after implemented. Logistics is even specifically mentioned in the eWAR post. Funny how a "fully skilled scout" scanning 100% of the time passively isn't OP enough to warrant a nerf. But a "fully skilled logistics" scanning once every 15-30 seconds is. Even a 50% range nerf,which will completely destroy active scanners. And you notice the whole premise behind the eWAR thread is yet another buff to assaults. 500 base eHP,high speed,8-9 slots apparently wasn't enough. Plates and extenders will add to your signature,guess what logistics needs to compensate its low eHP? It isn't dampeners,because logistics isn't innately fast enough to make them viable. Prepare for heavies to passively scan you down. Assaults have enough base eHP that extra is an option. The eWAR thread is what you get when you ignore a whole mediums frame class in favor of another. Well, logistics aren't exactly being ignored,they are being nerfed,in favor of assaults,again. What's next? Assaults getting 2 equipment slots? A few things: * A Scout's passive scans are now interrupted when his cloak is active. * Overheard two Top 100 Assaults asking for exactly that (2 EQ). * Logis almost always come in 1st place at the end of the match. I don't mind. * Will bet Cross 1M Isk that Logi scan range will be buffed to 18m (max range 80m). * Will bet Cross 1M Isk that Logi scan precision will be buffed to 42 dB (max precision 20dB).

Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 294	Posted - 2014.11.15 05:00:00 - [921] - Quote Little something I dropped from another topic but is relevant : Doshneil Antaro wrote: I've been holding out for some time about my last idea as it would impact myself as a logi, and how the rep tool and the whole class performs. Rework the rep tool so that it is a prior to combat tool. Instead of constantly repping it should over charge a suit for the same current health tics up to 5 tics over 5 seconds. This extra health would remain in effect up to a minute but the over charged suit could not be recharged for 1 min 30 sec. This fix although dramic and really push the coders at CCP, would benefit all classes especially the assault. Over charge the heavy, Then assault , and then "oh well but the scouts already ran off". It would also free up a logis hands to do other things like more revives, quicker placement of hives and uplinks, and ( god forbid ) put some rounds down range. source: Sentinels are a problem! feedback pg 2. ( Sorry on my ps3 and cant remember how to link it ) . This idea is not something I believe CCP would release this late but they should look into something like this if Legion takes flight. BTW I'm a pre Chrome logi medic, I repped in the original corp battles even though there was no war points for it and still topped the charts. Edit: I support the bandwith per equipment per suit as I asked for years ago that CCP is finally considering. I'm also against REs being replenished with hives/supply depots. It is the only equipment that murders but yet does not have the same drawback as other placed equipment. All equipment needs to be well thought out and not easily replenished. Sage /thread
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 113	Posted - 2014.11.15 06:05:00 - [922] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: snipped stuff about repair tool changes and problems with sentinels Repair tool idea is interesting, but as I am refusing to touch reppers with an eleven foot pole I consider myself unqualified to comment on that aspect. The sentinel part though? It's very simple: Sentinels should not be in CQC, and should instead be retooled as a long-range fire support platform. Seriously, a sentinel user is then faced with their disadvantages, like incredibly low mobility when on foot. Doshneil Antaro wrote: Edit: I support the bandwith per equipment per suit as I asked for years ago that CCP is finally considering. I'm also against REs being replenished with hives/supply depots. It is the only equipment that murders but yet does not have the same drawback as other placed equipment. All equipment needs to be well thought out and not easily replenished. I agree on the bandwidth idea, but I disagree on the equipment replenishment. Particularly considering the proposal to reduce the capacities of a single hive or link, and increase the number carried- thus making it more difficult to spam them (since they will be expended at significantly higher rates)- means that a smoother equipment replenishment system is required. I would recommend that nanohives and droplinks be replenished by supply depots, but not deployed nanos- the latter doesn't make much sense after all. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1192	Posted - 2014.11.15 06:16:00 - [923] - Quote formerly gal assault and light gal logi cal and min logi need a shield repair tool. gal and amarr need an armor repair tool. both would be primary equipment and be altered by the logis primary bonuses. where secondary bonuses would apply to secondary equipment such as nanohives, uplinks, scanners, and remotes. this is how eve operates and therefore is how dust should operate. every racial logi should get a bonus to their races preferred repair tool. having an armor tool on a minmatar suit is absolute nonsense. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 113	Posted - 2014.11.15 06:51:00 - [924] - Quote While I am a big fan of bring DUST and EVE closer in conceptual design... it's a stupid idea for an infantry unit to have no ability to shoot stuff in the face. Almost every player will, at some point, have to run around on foot. If such a player chooses a logi suit, I'm sure they would appreciate being able to shoot something in the face. I mean, look at Team Fortress 2 (which I haven't actually played), where the medic has some pretty amazeballs ability (so I've heard, at least), and still has a freakin' gun. Even Blizzard's new FPS, with it's super-supporty-medic-class, still gives said class a freakin' gun. TL;DR: don't replace the Logi's gun with a repair tool. It's stupid and a fail idea. Addendum: racial repair tools is an admittedly cool idea. Still, no likes for you. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4553	Posted - 2014.11.15 13:06:00 - [925] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Meee One wrote: Just want to point something out... Scouts have been running at 8m/s permascanning in a 360 degree radius for months,no nerf. Logistics gets a team scanner to help their team,plans on nerfing 2 days after implemented. Logistics is even specifically mentioned in the eWAR post. Funny how a "fully skilled scout" scanning 100% of the time passively isn't OP enough to warrant a nerf. But a "fully skilled logistics" scanning once every 15-30 seconds is. Even a 50% range nerf,which will completely destroy active scanners. And you notice the whole premise behind the eWAR thread is yet another buff to assaults. 500 base eHP,high speed,8-9 slots apparently wasn't enough. Plates and extenders will add to your signature,guess what logistics needs to compensate its low eHP? It isn't dampeners,because logistics isn't innately fast enough to make them viable. Prepare for heavies to passively scan you down. Assaults have enough base eHP that extra is an option. The eWAR thread is what you get when you ignore a whole mediums frame class in favor of another. Well, logistics aren't exactly being ignored,they are being nerfed,in favor of assaults,again. What's next? Assaults getting 2 equipment slots? A few things: * Scouts have been nerfed a bunch of times in the past few months. * A Scout's passive scans are now interrupted when his cloak is active. * Overheard two Top 100 Assaults asking for exactly that (2 EQ). * The Logis I run with place 1st nearly every match; they are fantastic (and viable). Will bet Cross 1M Isk that Logi scan range will be buffed to 18-20m (max range 80-90m) and scan precision buffed to 42 dB (max precision 20dB). My money's on you guys becoming better Hunters while Assaults become better Hiders. Would be really neat to see Logi passives forcing Scouts to run damps. Are you sure you don't have that last part reversed? Unless you mean we are finders/spotters (which is also off, that should be the scouts role but I guess they would be the mobile version) and assaults become more stealthy killers (the other current/broken scout role). (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 222	Posted - 2014.11.15 16:16:00 - [926] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Will bet Cross 1M Isk that Logi scan range will be buffed to 18-20m (max range 80-90m) and scan precision buffed to 42 dB (max precision 20dB). My money's on you guys becoming better Hunters while Assaults become better Hiders. Would be really neat to see Logi passives forcing Scouts to run damps. Are you sure you don't have that last part reversed? Unless you mean we are finders/spotters (which is also off, that should be the scouts role but I guess they would be the mobile version) and assaults become more stealthy killers (the other current/broken scout role). By "Hunt" and "Hide" I intended to describe general interplay Precision vs Profile, rather than describe a particular function or activity. We know that Rattati intends to buff MedFrame EWAR. Looking at the APEX fittings, it appears that Logis will be the more precision-oriented of the two Meds. A buff to Logi Precision necessitates a buff to Assault Profile (the Apex GA Assault makes no sense otherwise). I'm speculating as to the specific numbers themselves. For funsies :-) My money's on Assault base profile (45 dB) and Logi base precision (42 dB). These values returns interplay not unlike the hunter/hunted progressions of Scouts (1/2/3 precision beats 0/1/2 damps). Though my expectations may be overly simplified. Rattati might divide the EWAR shakeup along racial lines, which could get really interesting. Some Logis get a buff to Precision. Other Logis don't. Craziness!
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5402	Posted - 2014.11.15 16:31:00 - [927] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Will bet Cross 1M Isk that Logi scan range will be buffed to 18-20m (max range 80-90m) and scan precision buffed to 42 dB (max precision 20dB). My money's on you guys becoming better Hunters while Assaults become better Hiders. Would be really neat to see Logi passives forcing Scouts to run damps. Are you sure you don't have that last part reversed? Unless you mean we are finders/spotters (which is also off, that should be the scouts role but I guess they would be the mobile version) and assaults become more stealthy killers (the other current/broken scout role). By "Hunt" and "Hide" I intended to describe general interplay Precision vs Profile, rather than describe a particular function or activity. We know that Rattati intends to buff MedFrame EWAR. Looking at the APEX fittings, it appears that Logis will be the more precision-oriented of the two Meds. A buff to Logi Precision necessitates a buff to Assault Profile (the Apex GA Assault makes no sense otherwise). I'm speculating as to the specific numbers themselves. For funsies :-) My money's on Assault base profile (45 dB) and Logi base precision (42 dB). These values returns interplay not unlike the hunter/hunted progressions of Scouts (1/2/3 precision beats 0/1/2 damps). Though my expectations may be overly simplified. Rattati might divide the EWAR shakeup along racial lines, which could get really interesting. Some Logis get a buff to Precision. Other Logis don't. Craziness! Logis are already heard towards better Precision so this makes senseGÇª just bumping more in that direction would add a lot to balance for EWAR, and boost the Logi team support role in a positive direction. Dividing Precision and Dampening along Factional linesGÇª that would be interesting. MOAR Ladders
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1298	Posted - 2014.11.15 16:33:00 - [928] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Meee One wrote: Just want to point something out... Scouts have been running at 8m/s permascanning in a 360 degree radius for months,no nerf. Logistics gets a team scanner to help their team,plans on nerfing 2 days after implemented. Logistics is even specifically mentioned in the eWAR post. Funny how a "fully skilled scout" scanning 100% of the time passively isn't OP enough to warrant a nerf. But a "fully skilled logistics" scanning once every 15-30 seconds is. Even a 50% range nerf,which will completely destroy active scanners. And you notice the whole premise behind the eWAR thread is yet another buff to assaults. 500 base eHP,high speed,8-9 slots apparently wasn't enough. Plates and extenders will add to your signature,guess what logistics needs to compensate its low eHP? It isn't dampeners,because logistics isn't innately fast enough to make them viable. Prepare for heavies to passively scan you down. Assaults have enough base eHP that extra is an option. The eWAR thread is what you get when you ignore a whole mediums frame class in favor of another. Well, logistics aren't exactly being ignored,they are being nerfed,in favor of assaults,again. What's next? Assaults getting 2 equipment slots? A few things: * Scouts have been nerfed a bunch of times in the past few months. * A Scout's passive scans are now interrupted when his cloak is active. * Overheard two Top 100 Assaults asking for exactly that (2 EQ). So,i can use the white logi with better survival,or the yellow logi with crap survival,this would in no way be infringement. * The Logis I run with place 1st nearly every match; they are fantastic (and viable). Will bet Cross 1M Isk that Logi scan range will be buffed to 18-20m (max range 80-90m) and scan precision buffed to 42 dB (max precision 20dB). My money's on you guys becoming better Hunters while Assaults become better Hiders. Would be really neat to see Logi passives forcing Scouts to run damps. So,logistics,the non killing suit (defensive),will be able to hunt other suits down(offensive),instead of hiding like a non killer should.(defensive ) And assaults,a killing suit(offensive),won't be able to actively hunt targets(offensive),but instead will be able to hide from them?(defensive) Doesn't that seem slightly backwards? Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1298	Posted - 2014.11.15 16:39:00 - [929] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: While I am a big fan of bring DUST and EVE closer in conceptual design... it's a stupid idea for an infantry unit to have no ability to shoot stuff in the face. Almost every player will, at some point, have to run around on foot. If such a player chooses a logi suit, I'm sure they would appreciate being able to shoot something in the face. I mean, look at Team Fortress 2 (which I haven't actually played), where the medic has some pretty amazeballs ability (so I've heard, at least), and still has a freakin' gun. Even Blizzard's new FPS, with it's super-supporty-medic-class, still gives said class a freakin' gun. TL;DR: don't replace the Logi's gun with a repair tool. It's stupid and a fail idea. Addendum: racial repair tools is an admittedly cool idea. Still, no likes for you. I am so glad no one can read. The weaponless logistics would be a variation not a replacement. Just like the equipment they hold,logistics would have a non-combat variety. Where the current gun toting logistics suffers base stat wise. This new completely separate variety would sacrifice offensive power for defensive. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1298	Posted - 2014.11.15 16:47:00 - [930] - Quote And as for hybrid hives being repurposed. I'd prefer copy and paste current compact stats on amount refilled and cluster amount. Still keeping 1 deployed per level. STD- 1 carried ADV- 2 carried Pro- 3 carried The smaller bubble would make them more useful to players that try to hide. Eg.Snipers,scouts,etc Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.

Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 222	Posted - 2014.11.15 16:57:00 - [931] - Quote Meee One wrote: So,logistics,the non killing suit (defensive),will be able to hunt other suits down(offensive),instead of hiding like a non killer should.(defensive ) And assaults,a killing suit(offensive),won't be able to actively hunt targets(offensive),but instead will be able to hide from them?(defensive) Doesn't that seem slightly backwards? Negative. Support is neither defensive or offensive. Support is support, and a support-oriented Logi doesn't hide; he actively helps Killers kill with greater efficiency. It makes perfect sense that he share sensor data with the Killers he actively supports. Losing assets to flank by HP tanked Shotgun Scouts or dampened Shotgun Assaults? Swap out your Logi loadout for one with better sensors. Adapt and overcome.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19110	Posted - 2014.11.15 17:10:00 - [932] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: dampened Shotgun Assaults? Did we go back to Chromosome? I can't remember the last time I saw a shotgun assault who was actually competent. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 222	Posted - 2014.11.15 17:17:00 - [933] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: dampened Shotgun Assaults? Did we go back to Chromosome? I can't remember the last time I saw a shotgun assault who was actually competent. Thinking ahead ... Assumes that Logis will receive a Precision buff and Assaults a Profile buff. (see earlier posts)
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8460	Posted - 2014.11.15 17:37:00 - [934] - Quote ] Vitantur Nothus wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: dampened Shotgun Assaults? Did we go back to Chromosome? I can't remember the last time I saw a shotgun assault who was actually competent. Thinking ahead ... Assumes that Logis will receive a Precision buff and Assaults a Profile buff. (see earlier posts) I'm completely confused why Assaults are getting a profile damp when they are "Assaults". Shouldn't their thing be scan range? Or maybe it's just the Gallente assault that's damped and you have the other Assaults doing the appropriate Assault eWar for their race. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 156	Posted - 2014.11.15 17:38:00 - [935] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Will bet Cross 1M Isk that Logi scan range will be buffed to 18-20m (max range 80-90m) and scan precision buffed to 42 dB (max precision 20dB). My money's on you guys becoming better Hunters while Assaults become better Hiders. Would be really neat to see Logi passives forcing Scouts to run damps. This would be awesome. Particularly if precision enhancing mods affected both passive and active scans. This would give me a viable alternative to brick tanking. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 224	Posted - 2014.11.15 17:41:00 - [936] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Particularly if precision enhancing mods affected ... active scans. Ouch! We can't have 90 degree / 200m scanners pinging below 21 dB. That'd completely remove any reason to ever run damps on an Assault.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 224	Posted - 2014.11.15 17:48:00 - [937] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: I'm completely confused why Assaults are getting a profile damp when they are "Assaults". Shouldn't their thing be scan range? Or maybe it's just the Gallente assault that's damped and you have the other Assaults doing the appropriate Assault eWar for their race. Agreed. Scout EWAR functions are divided by faction; it'd be really neat if Rattati did something similar for Meds. Looking at the APEX assaults, only the GA got the damp ... maybe you're on to something :-)
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5404	Posted - 2014.11.15 17:50:00 - [938] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: I'm completely confused why Assaults are getting a profile damp when they are "Assaults". Shouldn't their thing be scan range? Or maybe it's just the Gallente assault that's damped and you have the other Assaults doing the appropriate Assault eWar for their race. Agreed. Scout EWAR functions are divided by faction; it'd be really neat if Rattati did something similar for Meds. Looking at the APEX assaults, only the GA got the damp ... maybe you're on to something :-) Concerned that all Min suits will fall behind on EWAR MOAR Ladders
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 114	Posted - 2014.11.15 18:43:00 - [939] - Quote Meee One wrote: I am so glad no one can read. The weaponless logistics would be a variation not a replacement. Just like the equipment they hold,logistics would have a non-combat variety. Where the current gun toting logistics suffers base stat wise. This new completely separate variety would sacrifice offensive power for defensive. The problem is not "no one can read", the problem is that the idea is still stupid, even if it's a variant platform. Considering that DUST is a shooter, it doesn't make any sense as to why there should be a class with no ability to kill enemies whatsoever. Because really all that happens, is that such a class can try to run away, but will mostly just die slowly and helplessly. It would be like heavies in Chrome, when they were free kills that shot stuff a little bit but mostly just died in a proverbial fire. Meee One wrote: And as for hybrid hives being repurposed. I'd prefer copy and paste current compact stats on amount refilled and cluster amount. Still keeping 1 deployed per level. STD- 1 carried ADV- 2 carried Pro- 3 carried The smaller bubble would make them more useful to players that try to hide. Eg.Snipers,scouts,etc I was simply offering my opinion on how to implement additional compact nano variants at ADV and PRO levels. As I said, it was by no means a definitive solution, merely the one that, quite honestly, first came to mind. Part of my goal was to help make sure that it is more difficult to spam nanohives; I'd honestly say that proposal I set forth would be more suited to the current game state than to combine it with the suggested nanohive changes in the 3rd iteration spreadsheet. However, I also think that if the hybrid hives are retained mostly as-is, then they need a lot of adjustment. My personal recommendation would be to adjust compact nanos down slightly in rep rate only, to 40 HP/s, nudge the K17/D (R) up to 30 HP/s, and the Allotek (R) up to 50 HP/s; the primary advantage of compact nanos should generally be their very low fitting costs, not their surprisingly incredible rep rate. Keep in mind that 40 HP/s is still really awesome as well. Sgt Kirk wrote: I'm completely confused why Assaults are getting a profile damp when they are "Assaults". Shouldn't their thing be scan range? Or maybe it's just the Gallente assault that's damped and you have the other Assaults doing the appropriate Assault eWar for their race. As someone once said to me, this just makes way too much sense. Incidentally, it opens the door for Caldari scouts to be made the scan precision masters, creating a proper interplay between Caldari and Gallente scout EWAR interplay. It also means that my pet idea of giving the Amarr Scout a biotics module efficacy bonus could be implemented. Distributing EWAR so that Logis have reasonably good precision, Scouts have good precision and amazeballs damping, and Assaults have amazeballs range? I like this idea- season with a Sentinel role change to long-range fire support, and assaults are now an excellent offensive/defensive CQC platform, in addition to their general-purpose flexibility. Vitantur Nothus wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Particularly if precision enhancing mods affected ... active scans. Ouch! We can't have 90 degree / 200m scanners pinging below 21 dB. That'd completely remove any reason to ever run damps on an Assault. I'm reasonably certain that any and every person who's very scanner-savvy agrees that the Proto Flux scanner is actually broken. Referencing myself, I recommend that we simply swap the scan angles of the PRO-level Proxy and Flux scanners- the short-ranged Proxy now has a useful scan angle of 90 degrees, while the long-range Flux has an appropriate scan angle of 45 degrees. The other side of why that's a bad idea is twofold: for one, it doesn't actually make sense (why do dropsuit scan mods effect a self-contained equipment device?), and for two, I'm quite certain that there's about a dozen different ripple effects that you haven't considered, most of which will not be known until after people play with it for about a day. Of course, I do think it may be appropriate to slightly lower the cooldown on the Focused scanner, as 40 seconds of cooldown for an, IIRC, 5-second paint time is pretty nearly useless. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 668	Posted - 2014.11.15 20:55:00 - [940] - Quote This was a long thread but worth the read. I see a few points that I would like to address, yet there are many that I do not need to get into as Cross, John, eL, Meee, and many others have already made the points perfectly. Equipment Lag: @Cross - maybe there is a reference I am missing but, I am surprised that the cause of equipment lag wasn't referenced earlier. It became clear during several PC tests that were monitored closely by CCP some time ago; they were able to route it especially for the match between the teams. It was actually caused by the sounds and not the visuals of the game. Each piece of equipment has a very distinct sound and a certain number would cause little issue, but when each one was firing off in a field of 50 the system was overloaded to make every one distinct to each player. This may have been 8-16months ago. I do not recall if there was a solution.... sorry. I'll see if I can find the reference if you like. If there was no solution, then Veloctte's works. This new idea of shorter life span equipment works as well, but in tandem with the bandwidth idea makes it a real winner I think. Concerns and Ideas STATS AND FITTINGS #1 Tier Standardization and Slot Count Equalization. Back in the Charlie Feedback conversation with Rattati we shared a few ideas. One was the slot count equalization of the logis and assaults and the other classes; that happened for all but the Logis. Along with that discussion was the push for tier equalization that happened for all classes except the Logi. This is my first request. I donGÇÖt care for the sidearm discussion right now, what I want are equal slots and to make the step from level to level as even as possible. Otherwise we get into the Gal and Cal having a huge disparity in their character life. UNIQUE Logis GÇô (3EQ, Side Arm, or Module Focus) AMARR SIDE ARM S- 1H/3L/2E + Side Arm A- 2H/4L/3E + Side Arm P- 3H/5L/3E + Side Arm CALDARI........................ OR With Side Arm (I'm open to it) S- 3H/1L/3E.....................3H/1L/2E + Side Arm A- 4H/2L/3E.....................4H/2L/3E + Side Arm P- 5H/3L/4E.....................5H3L/3E + Side Arm EQ SPECIFIC Logis GÇô (4EQ) GALLENTE S- 1H/3L/3E A- 2H/4L/3E P- 3H/5L/4E MINMATAR S- 2H/2L/3E A- 3H/3L/3E P- 4H/4L/4E #2 I agree that role should be defined. STATS Your questions around "if everyone else could do without a logi is it specialized?" is dead on. The bonus, stats, and all the rest should define that; and in turn we should not step on the toes of other classes - and they should not step on ours. So a few changes are in order. So what are we? A Logistics class suit is also a MEDIUM Suit, so why does the ASSAULT Class need to kick our stats in everything? Why has our thinking been relegated to a state where the ASSAULT Frame must win 10/10 times (HP/Regen/speed/cpu/pg/etc)? Should we not be better in some battle things and they in others? TOO often they win. We are supposed to be between Assaults and Scouts in stats. That does not mean less than assault always. I know that CCP wants to keep the Assault class as the Go To Slayer Class, but other classes have better stats in some areas and worse in others GÇô can we not find that balance? Or must we always be less? We do not beat the other type medium frames in what are often the deciding factors of a battle like HP, what we can fit, movement and sprint speed, or regen. Why can we not be faster than Assaults? Or better at regen? This is a shooter too, and we must have the chance to survive. I see TWO CHOICES when it comes to size. We are either more like a heavy or more like a scout. A heavy is slower but has a Krap-Ton of HP, and slow regens. (nothing new). Or are we more like scouts? Speed, low HP, better regens. We are essentially an assault frame that can go either way. Where do you want to go? With all the Low HP talk it sounds like we donGÇÖt want to be slow delivery tanks but rescue speedersGÇª so Scout specialties are right up our ally. We have a medium frame, ripped off some armor and shield generators so we could mount some equipment on there. We can have Assaultish stats and we can have Scoutish stats; we just donGÇÖt need to beat them; but we can get much closer to their values to be a competitive class. So, get your heads out of the slow fatty lane or start suggesting stats that put us closer to our hitbox size in a good way; like Piles and Piles of HP. nüè Why? Because CCP can, and may, pick and choose what they like. Why do we not ask for the best? Best is: we get what we need. A step down is a compromise, and a step down from that is getting screwed over.... so same spot the Logi is in now. A. HIT BOX. This is a FPS. Give me chance to defend myself and not be swatted down so quickly. A logistics class stats should NOT HAVE THE HITBOX of a uneducated expletives written in righteous fury HEAVY. HITBOX to MED. - not altered medium just the standard medium. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS

RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 668	Posted - 2014.11.15 20:57:00 - [941] - Quote B. Base stat adjustments. In my view, with maxed skill trees, a Proto suit should be able to fit Proto Equipment and Modules and still fit a basic to ADV weapon, sacrifice for a grenade (Racial Weapons please). Should be anyway. Regardless of my feelings, why are we asking for less PG/CPU Than Assaults and having them Equalized between races GÇô I didnGÇÖt see where we came up with this magic number? I get that we would have more fitting power IFF the skills and Equipment changes were passed through as well. But that is no guarantee. Beginning with the solution that will most likely be chosen at the end of a long discussion is rarely a sound negotiation tactic. But, if this is the discussion... and we are compromising, dropping stats is not what I would recommend, especially when they aren't enough to run the fittings I can run now. Dropping Min, Gal, and Amarr PG/CPU... no. The improvements in Regen, HP, etc. are nice but that is where the suit needs to go anyway. Do we really feel we need to compromise what stats we do have for a meager helping of a few more? I do not. If we do anything with PG and CPU it should be to raise them to Gal/Min standards if we were to equalize them. Even then there should be a set amount for logis and then the racial differences take over to shift PG and CPU. But maybe that was broke from the start.... Amarr should always have had more PG and GET RID of that Forsaken CAL CPU NERF! It has run its course. No more slayers are there. None are hiding in the shadows to jump into that mess should it even become a viable logi suit again. CCP killed it. THE CPU intensive CAL modules require much more. IFF we are to Equalize our CPU and PG then at least get every suit up there. The Cal logi does not need to sit in the corner and continue on as the ****** cousin at the kids table on Thanksgiving. Let him come back into the fold, please. Each Logi beats its Assault brother in either CPU or PG and is very close to the other stat that it does not surpass. Same pattern should apply unless CCP is Equalizing all Classes. TLDR I'm just saying that perhaps our lower PG/CPU equalization should be a PLAN B. We should have a Plan A for a standalone stat adjustment. b. Continued.** The rest of the stats can be bolder as well. In this thread we have spoken of the unique jobs of a logi and how the equipment use and our color make us more of a target than those we are protecting. Given that we are between Assaults and Scouts, let me propose some rules for these stat changes. PG/CPU GÇô Meet or beat, only by a little, the other classes. I would see the Amarr with more PG, Caldari CPU, and the others nearly where they are at now. HP needed a buff. Thank you. But I am also in the group that sees it as perhaps only a millisecond more of survival GÇô but it helps. I pushed mine to just 100 away from that of each assault class. That is a fair gap I feel. Above a scout but still far from the AssaultGÇÖs values. LOGI REGENS I would like to see above the Assaults or SPEEDs over an Assaults GÇô we donGÇÖt have to be gimped twice. So in my proposal Our regens are in between an assault and scout with the rates and delays. SHIELD RR GÇô Between Scout and Assault SHIELD RD GÇô Good SHIELD DRD GÇô Good ARMOR Repair Rate GÇô I would like more, I only increased it with Amarr and CaldariGÇª but it is OK. MOVEMENT SPEED .2-.25 above assaults or I would like at least equal with Assaults but if this is as far as we can go I get it, ok. Quicker strafe has been discussed and is a nice quality for our class. (even though we will be loaded up to compensate for lower HP and will loose the edge, the net effect is still good). It looks like the original was just a blanket boost of .25m/s, but if we are defining the Logistics character we should really set what it is in stone. Sprint SPEED GÇô Good. Should be at Assaults level or close. GÇô could we trade on stamina?GÇª what do we need? A long running logi or a quick sprinting logi? Needing to be in 7 Places at once I would go for more sprint speed. STAMINA GÇô I believe it should either be beating the scouts or it should not. We have inconsistencies within our groups. It looks like it was just a blanket boost of 25%, but if we are defining the Logistics character what should it be? For increased move and Sprint less stamina is OK. For Increased move and equal or less sprint we should have a large pool. STAMINA Recovery GÇô Decide GÇô Better or Same or Under Assault? GÇô Same part of the earlier discussion about should we be sprinting longer or more often? Right now we have it under an assaults. But I think that is debatable. A smaller pool but faster regen is good or just a large sized pool with decent regen. SCAN Profile GÇô Awaiting Ewar. I Feel it Should be Better than Assaults GÇô always. SCAN Precision GÇô Awaiting Ewar.Should be better than Assaults GÇô Always. SCAN RADIUS GÇô Good. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 668	Posted - 2014.11.15 20:58:00 - [942] - Quote #3 SKILLS Class GÇô the change with equipment updates is golden. Logistics Racial Buffs I like Suggestion #1. I believe it offers bonuses for Beginners and Vets. Beginners and Vets get the immediate effect of the skill for that race and if a player already has a rank in the same class that miniscule amount will still impact their experience. I believe it is especially great for keeping beginners trying new suits and also allows a bonus if it turns out they really didnGÇÖt like that particular dropsuit. For Vets, it keeps them investing in new possibilities and can make a stagnant experience new again. If they want the Minmatar bonus but REALLY REALLY just like to play Caldari then they can have a piece of it, and who knows, if they proto that bonus they may whip out their special Minmatar Proto setup and get a whole new experience. I see that while I could just keep maxing out weapons the skills my character learns, the interactions with the culturesGÇÖ technologies will allow me to have an edge during my sojourn in the EVE universe. So that whatever I learn in each class can be applied to that class regardless of racial suit, at least in a minimal way. Which means that I will be playing those races to get the bonuses for all of my setups. Doing all the calculations on how that would affect each class beyond just the LOGI is not a task I want for myself but IFF it is a possibility I can guarantee each class will want it. And why wouldnGÇÖt they? If LOGIs get this really cool option more will see the benefits. Vets will have a reason to continue and CCP will have the SP sinks that they desire in a near Legionesque way. We want what we do to matter. Having these bonuses apply throughout the class would be awesome. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 494	Posted - 2014.11.15 23:06:00 - [943] - Quote This thread is now officially long overdue for a blue tag. I know, Cross is handling it and handling it well, but still. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1198	Posted - 2014.11.15 23:54:00 - [944] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: While I am a big fan of bring DUST and EVE closer in conceptual design... it's a stupid idea for an infantry unit to have no ability to shoot stuff in the face. Almost every player will, at some point, have to run around on foot. If such a player chooses a logi suit, I'm sure they would appreciate being able to shoot something in the face. I mean, look at Team Fortress 2 (which I haven't actually played), where the medic has some pretty amazeballs ability (so I've heard, at least), and still has a freakin' gun. Even Blizzard's new FPS, with it's super-supporty-medic-class, still gives said class a freakin' gun. TL;DR: don't replace the Logi's gun with a repair tool. It's stupid and a fail idea. Addendum: racial repair tools is an admittedly cool idea. Still, no likes for you. who suggested taking their gun away? Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 259	Posted - 2014.11.16 00:02:00 - [945] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: who suggested taking their gun away? Was not Meeeeee.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1299	Posted - 2014.11.16 00:32:00 - [946] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: This thread is now officially long overdue for a blue tag. I know, Cross is handling it and handling it well, but still. Well,the problem is the most worshipped Dev runs assault. So our concerns will fall upon deaf ears. Look at what he proposed for logistics before,a .25 speed nerf to below 300 eHP suits. And look now,an active scanner nerf aimed at logistics. Yet he has managed to sneak in a buff to his preferred class,the assaults. Do you think he would allow any buffs if he was willing to nerf the speed of below 300 eHP suits (which were already slow)? Or buff eHP when he said '240 eHP was fine "? Let's just consider that for a second... -Basics have 60 more eHP -Basics are faster,with better regen -Assaults have 160 more eHP (compared to their racial logistics) -Assaults recently got logistics slots,so 8-9 (insanely OP with their base stats) -Assaults sacrifice nothing,they maintain full speed and stamina -Logistics has 300 eHP on Amarr -Logistics is slower than basics -Logistics has less eHP than basics -Logistics costs more investment than basics -Assault and logistics costs the same So,for the same time and investment as assaults with 400 eHP base. You get to be worse than basics,which take much less investment. But hey it isn't all bad,your fits will only cost nearly 2x as much as a comperable assault. With less offense,less eHP,less speed,less regen,mediocre eWAR,and as a bonus you'll get singled out first every time! Come join logistics today* *Must be a masochist to apply. Tl;dr Don't expect a blue tag,the CCP (that favors assaults) is intentionally pushing logistics to extinction. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 494	Posted - 2014.11.16 01:20:00 - [947] - Quote Meee One wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: This thread is now officially long overdue for a blue tag. I know, Cross is handling it and handling it well, but still. Well,the problem is the most worshipped Dev runs assault. So our concerns will fall upon deaf ears. Look at what he proposed for logistics before,a .25 speed nerf to below 300 eHP suits. And look now,an active scanner nerf aimed at logistics. Yet he has managed to sneak in a buff to his preferred class,the assaults. Do you think he would allow any buffs if he was willing to nerf the speed of below 300 eHP suits (which were already slow)? Or buff eHP when he said '240 eHP was fine "? Let's just consider that for a second... -Basics have 60 more eHP -Basics are faster,with better regen -Assaults have 160 more eHP (compared to their racial logistics) -Assaults recently got logistics slots,so 8-9 (insanely OP with their base stats) -Assaults sacrifice nothing,they maintain full speed and stamina -Logistics has 300 eHP on Amarr -Logistics is slower than basics -Logistics has less eHP than basics -Logistics costs more investment than basics -Assault and logistics costs the same So,for the same time and investment as assaults with 400 eHP base. You get to be worse than basics,which take much less investment. But hey it isn't all bad,your fits will only cost nearly 2x as much as a comperable assault. With less offense,less eHP,less speed,less regen,mediocre eWAR,and as a bonus you'll get singled out first every time! Come join logistics today* *Must be a masochist to apply. Tl;dr Don't expect a blue tag,the CCP (that favors assaults) is intentionally pushing logistics to extinction. I don't contest our extreme disparity with other suits , survivability-wise, its why we're here. But if we can't trust in the mechanisms of change working than theres no point in continuing and I for one am not there yet. I see the same things you do, and have been waiting just as long as you for things to be improved. Join me in not salting the ground before we even get to plant something that might grow. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8466	Posted - 2014.11.16 01:21:00 - [948] - Quote I told Rattati (or at least I said it in a thread) that I skilled out of the Lohistics because I saw dark skies ahead for Logistics. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4557	Posted - 2014.11.16 02:57:00 - [949] - Quote As is usual, I agree with a lot of what RedBleach said, in particular I've always liked the Logi as "light medium" instead of the "heavy medium", though there is a good case to be made the other way. But if you do that, like he said, you better be putting a pretty sizable HP buff on the table. One place I do disagree though, is in the CPU/PG buff. Personally, while there are obvious issues with the Caldari CPU, and the Amarr logi PG has literally always been broken since it's creation... it was, what, some laughable amount like 20 PG at STD when it first existed? But, I don't think that a fitting resource buff to the level of the assault is the answer. I would favor a more modest buff and then a 50-100% increase to the fitting bonus instead, to make it relatively easy to fit proto equipment but not proto weapons. This is just a sort of pre-emptive thing to stop the slayerlogi derpiness that is 100% guaranteed to follow any buff to logis. By doing it with an EQ bonus you can very easily make the claim that the offensive capabilities of the suit will be at most only modestly better but the "intended" capability, as a support platform, is brought in line with the other frames. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 678	Posted - 2014.11.16 04:43:00 - [950] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: As is usual, I agree with a lot of what RedBleach said, in particular I've always liked the Logi as "light medium" instead of the "heavy medium", though there is a good case to be made the other way. But if you do that, like he said, you better be putting a pretty sizable HP buff on the table. One place I do disagree though, is in the CPU/PG buff. Personally, while there are obvious issues with the Caldari CPU, and the Amarr logi PG has literally always been broken since it's creation... it was, what, some laughable amount like 20 PG at STD when it first existed? But, I don't think that a fitting resource buff to the level of the assault is the answer. I would favor a more modest buff and then a 50-100% increase to the fitting bonus instead, to make it relatively easy to fit proto equipment but not proto weapons. This is just a sort of pre-emptive thing to stop the slayerlogi derpiness that is 100% guaranteed to follow any buff to logis. By doing it with an EQ bonus you can very easily make the claim that the offensive capabilities of the suit will be at most only modestly better but the "intended" capability, as a support platform, is brought in line with the other frames. I completely agree. I suppose I have not taken the time to run numbers and fits to find the perfect PG/CPU combinations. I am with you that the key is to get proto gear and proto modules equipped and then have little left over so the sacrifices are between weapon level, grenade level (if at all), and side arm where applicable. If the bonus works and it allows me to maintain current fittings I am ready to move with it. But I need to take some time to wrap my head around why the Lower PG/CPU would work out. I don't want there to be a rush of slayer logi's but I do know that there are various types of Logistics characters. I typically fall on the Logibro side of things but a bomber fit must be just as viable, a logi that can kill/defend should be possible. I believe it boils down to the ease at which one can accomplish such a fitting. If it is easy for common newbs to jump into a logi and slay it up then there is a problem. But a creative individual that can tailor their playstyle and fitting to have a fit that can sadface the opponent is ok. But saying anything light that brings the logi hate for logistics killing anything - we all know this. Can you tell me Your PG/CPU suggestions and Why? I would just like to see something as an example about why the values are too much. Maybe what I ask is not available. I can get on board, I just need the logic. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS

Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 116	Posted - 2014.11.16 05:10:00 - [951] - Quote I think what John is getting at is the fact that an improved equipment fitting bonus means that it's easier to fit like a logi- IE, equipment is generally prioritized and the equipment chosen is typically of similar tier to the suit- than to fit like an assault, where tank and gank are prioritized and equipment choice comes down to "whatever fits". Random note: some people build fits with like 2 PG leftover, and an empty equipment slot. This bugs me, because you could throw a compact nano on there, and compact nanos are pretty awesome. Back on topic, given that RE's and proxies are equipment (and thus get the fitting bonus), then a bomber fit is still very possible- in fact it might be the case that logi-bombers become more common than scout-bombers... which I honestly would prefer given that it's a lot easier to see a logi coming for you. Paraphrasing what was probably the best way I saw it put (and I think it was John who said it too), was thusly: you've got two players, A and B. A is a guy who just likes to shoot things in the face, while B is a logibro to the core. They use the same suit, with 300 CPU and 60 PG. A loads his suit down with tank and gank, skipping equipment. B fits equipment to the tune of 100 CPU and 20 PG, using the rest (200 CPU/40 PG) for tank and gank. CCP patches the game, changing the suit to 275 CPU and 55 PG instead of the previous 300/60, while also giving it a -25% bonus to CPU/PG usage for equipment. Player A flips out, because his god-mode slayer fit is now impossible to build. Player B chuckles quietly to himself, while going on with his usual routine and fitting habits. Because Player B used only 200 CPU/40 PG to fill out his fit after fitting equipment, his fit never changes- while his equipment used to cost 100 CPU/20 PG, because it's now using 25% less CPU/PG, it instead requires only 75 CPU and 15 PG. Adding that to the previous 200/40 that was used for tank and gank, we get 275 CPU and 55 PG. So having a good fitting bonus means that it's easier to fit equipment, and makes it difficult to just max out tank&gank without any regard to equipment. Moreover, it also makes it easier to fit higher-end equipment to a suit. I find that the equipment fitting bonus has been positively critical in my AmLogi fits- though I would never say no to more PG. And a different slot layout. That would be nice too. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Kaze Eyrou Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 952	Posted - 2014.11.16 05:42:00 - [952] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: I told Rattati (or at least I said it in a thread) that I skilled out of the Lohistics because I saw dark skies ahead for Logistics. I hope that what you saw was simply a bad dream and not a vision... CB Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou CIO ("Proto Forum Warrior") Learning Coalition & RTG
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5074	Posted - 2014.11.16 07:10:00 - [953] - Quote I should really make a video to organize thoughts better on this topic. There are too many ideas being thrown around with far too much detail and specific ways we all want to improve logistics differently. I would like to talk with some more people in-game about this. Please join my personal chat channel "Dusting Around" if you would like to throw your ideas my way to possibly include them in a summary video. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Juedfin90 BLACK-GUARD E.B.O.L.A. 5	Posted - 2014.11.16 08:57:00 - [954] - Quote Hey, i m a min logi since the beginning, run out every core skill and i think that are the main points: - HP is totally okay...i got about 900 Hp totally - we need only rep (like wirkomy) nanohives at lvl 3 or 4 - we need better HP of Proto equipments, its not balanced if STD Grenades (1K ISK) is destroying PROTO Equipment (70k ISK) - we need SHIELD REP....PLEAAASE... make it exactly the same way as the armor rep!!! For example: ---> Amarr Heavy got about 1300 Armor maxed ----> min logi needs with core rep.about 9 seconds : 125 HP + Bonus 30 HP=155 HP ---> 1300/15 makes about 9s ----> Cal. Heavy got about 900 Shield maxed out: if there exists an CORE SHIELD Repper , he should take 9 seconds too... so the repper must rep about 100 Shield ----> So we player want DISPARITY, if you CCP just have amror rep in the game and in PC just Amarr and Gallente heavy will run!!! You see it right now! There are no Minmatar Heavys and Cal Heavys in PC!! Make somethink please " If you aren´t strong, be smart " citation from Sun Zu´s Book Tactics of War
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 217	Posted - 2014.11.16 09:18:00 - [955] - Quote I just had a thought, and please, explain to me why I am wrong. A lot of the backlash against, to me, what would seem like reasonable changes is the fact that, in spite of being a suit used primarily by masochists almost always puts the wielder at the top of the leaderboards due to it's inherent WP payouts. To those that haven't been in the trenches as a logi allow me to explain it this way, I now have an irrational hatred of scouts, but that doesn't to justice to the loathing I have for them and any opinion of mine in a scout topic should be promptly ignored, because I won't be happy until it only takes 1 basic MD round (splash) to kill any scout... I am getting very far off topic, back to the matter at hand. Now many of the suggestions that could be used to improve the logis efficacy and experience are being demolished because of one thing. Other people like being able to achieve 1st place on the leaderboards, because first and foremost, this is a game, a thing that people play to be able to feel good about themselves if they can't get jack diddly done in real life, or as just an escape to have some fun with some friends. Do you know what sours that whole experience? Seeing your name below some jackhole that went 0/7 with a metric **** load of WP. Everybody is being rated on a system(leaderboad) that is inherently favorable to logis, and are being paid according to their ranking in that system. So we need to change the end of game experience so that there are multiple leaderboards (E.G. WP, Kills, Vehicle Kills, Armor Repaired, Objectives Hacked, etc etc) that can be flipped through or are selected for you based on what was your favorite suit and most used weapon. That way people with fragile egos can flip to the leaderboard that they are closest to the top on because due to how many different classes there are in the FPS you can't rely on a simple who earned the most points leaderboard when some points are earned easier than others. Today's youth somewhat rely on getting a trophy to maintain their interest and all that this game offers to new players is a swift, and HARD kick in the nuts repeatedly... but once again I am getting off track. So basically, once the leaderboards are able to be closer to individualized allowing everyone able to see the importance of what they did on the battlefield, so they aren't trying to tear down ideas that would be beneficial for logis because they would make logis a permanence at the top of the leaderboards and forever getting paid more. TL;DR version We need to change the end of match leaderboads and actual leaderboards so shallow s.o.b.s can stop tearing down ideas that are good for logis. P.S. Payouts would also have to be looked at, and can we please change how we earn orbitals? P.P.S. Changing the leaderboards like this would also improve new player retention because giving praise to a gamer is like giving crack to an addict. After rereading this I realize that it really doesn't belong in this topic. Ebola makes me feel all warm and squishy inside.
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2091	Posted - 2014.11.16 09:55:00 - [956] - Quote Forgive me for not reading the whole thread, but I am under time constraints. I have only a few things to say as a jack of all trades in the game, and I'm sure it will all be unpopular because I am recommending nerfs to adjust for all of it's benifits. Repair tools, like everything else in the game has done so far, needs an anti-point farming mechanic built in. We nerfed nano hives and uplinks because they were too easy to just continuously farm points with, despite their usefulness to the team. The repair tool should be no different. I know points cut off if the person you're repairing hasn't done damage within a set amount of time, but the amount of points able to be accrued with a repair tool has been a bit laughable for a long time now (Reference: I-Shayz-I videos). I have no problem with a logi being able to work hard and do poorly k/d wise and still hit the top, I'm merely saying the repair tool allows a logi with a heavy or two to repair all match to be at the top in pretty much every match. All I'm saying is is that they are being a little overcompensated WP-wise for their role repairing. A slight drop to WP/rep cycle should smooth things out nicely, dropping it from 25 to 20 would probably even be enough. Also, repairing the squad lead while he's dropping an OB for points? Totally dumb. Point farming, pure and simple, and for no good reason. This leads into another debate where nobody in a squad should get kills from the OB but all instead get assists since they aren't actually killing the enemy, but simply put: repairing the squad lead while he/she drops an OB should NOT award points. Lastly, I recommend that the repair tool begins to overheat if you are repairing a suit who's armor is full already. Sitting in an objective repairing two heavies who are full on armor just to farm points shouldn't be a thing. Once a person you are repairing has full armor, your repair tool should start overheating. Make a logi have to pay attention to his job if he's going to be getting points for other people's successes. Just like a heavy has to watch his overheat to deal with multiple targets, a logi should have to pay attention to the one's he's caring for. I'll leave that one where it sits and let you ponder it for a bit. Anyway, hate to be a party pooper, I know most people probably came here for logi buffs, but point farming with the repair tool has been something that has been an issue for a while now and for the game to be complete, it needs to be rectified at some point. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 852	Posted - 2014.11.16 10:22:00 - [957] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Repair tools, like everything else in the game has done so far, needs an anti-point farming mechanic built in. We nerfed nano hives and uplinks because they were too easy to just continuously farm points with, despite their usefulness to the team. The repair tool should be no different. I know points cut off if the person you're repairing hasn't done damage within a set amount of time, but the amount of points able to be accrued with a repair tool has been a bit laughable for a long time now (Reference: I-Shayz-I videos). I have no problem with a logi being able to work hard and do poorly k/d wise and still hit the top, I'm merely saying the repair tool allows a logi with a heavy or two to repair all match to be at the top in pretty much every match. All I'm saying is is that they are being a little overcompensated WP-wise for their role repairing. A slight drop to WP/rep cycle should smooth things out nicely, dropping it from 25 to 20 would probably even be enough. Also, repairing the squad lead while he's dropping an OB for points? Totally dumb. Point farming, pure and simple, and for no good reason. This leads into another debate where nobody in a squad should get kills from the OB but all instead get assists since they aren't actually killing the enemy, but simply put: repairing the squad lead while he/she drops an OB should NOT award points. Lastly, I recommend that the repair tool begins to overheat if you are repairing a suit who's armor is full already. Sitting in an objective repairing two heavies who are full on armor just to farm points shouldn't be a thing. Once a person you are repairing has full armor, your repair tool should start overheating. Make a logi have to pay attention to his job if he's going to be getting points for other people's successes. Just like a heavy has to watch his overheat to deal with multiple targets, a logi should have to pay attention to the one's he's caring for. I'll leave that one where it sits and let you ponder it for a bit. First: there is another mechanic built in in addition to not gaining points for repping someone who hasn't done any damage, there is also a WP over time cap, which I can assure you most logis are also very familiar with. But yeah, I don't see an issue with dropping triage points down from 25 to say, 20. The OB point farming is bloody stupid, I agree. And, yes, actually, the OB shouldn't give the squad lead kills, but should instead give everyone in the squad assists (not necessarily 25/each/kill, it could instead be a set amount per kill that is divided amongst the squad, for instance 60 points, so that a 6 man squad gets 10 each, but a 2 man squad earning an OB gets 30 each... just an idle thought) But I can't agree with you on any changes that make the rep tool any harder to use than it is. The lock on mechanic is still cumbersome as hell, and if there is any lag or framerate issues, locking onto a specific target can be a ******* chore. But of course, there are never any framerate issues in Dust, so... I have had friendlies die on me because I dropped reps to do something else, and then the reptool just WOULD NOT lock on until 3rd or 4th try, costing precious seconds of rep for someone under fire. Having to be constantly dropping and relocking reps because of some idiotic overheat mechanic could quite possibly be the last straw that would make me stop using them entirely, for the first time ever. And I carried a reptool around for an entire build of no personal gain from it, so... Sorry, but not all of us are just warpoint farmers. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5074	Posted - 2014.11.16 10:53:00 - [958] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: TL;DR version We need to change the end of match leaderboads and actual leaderboards so shallow s.o.b.s can stop tearing down ideas that are good for logis. P.S. Payouts would also have to be looked at, and can we please change how we earn orbitals? P.P.S. Changing the leaderboards like this would also improve new player retention because giving praise to a gamer is like giving crack to an addict. After rereading this I realize that it really doesn't belong in this topic. this is why I keep suggesting that triage bonuses should be reduced while things like equipment destruction and Intel assist should be increased. also Sentinels should have another way of earning wp since they are not able to use equipment. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1056	Posted - 2014.11.16 12:27:00 - [959] - Quote After running around with the injector without a squad: First of all, running without a squad makes a logi more vurnable as you don't have teammates (to communicate) to protect you and that random have none to almost no situational awareness (with the consequences that you have to use your gun yourself more than usual to protect your pretty ass). This also leads to blueberries dying in places where it is too dangerous to revive. The case of joining a good squads are rare, but they are usually happy that you are using a proto-injector which leads in more patience to being revived (in the case if they do die). It seems that enough people are calling for help, my problem HOWEVER is that people usually call TOO LATE for their revival: In most cases I could have revived a blue dot successfully if they had called for help much sooner. By the time that they called for help the enemy team would have usually taken over the position, making a revive too dangerous or impossible. When two dots died at one location and they both ask for help at a different time. I think this explains itself, it's a waste of effort/opportunity and I'm already wasting my time shooting red berries myself most of the time due to the stupidity of randoms. On being revived myself (usually doesn't happen): lol people still time their revives badly, sometimes I'm already dead before I gain control over my character. Possible solution: Make it so that you can stab people and that they have to accept the revive after they got stabbed (oh, I guess this was proposed many times before....). I don't care if you give WP after he accepts the revive or not or divide it between a +35 "first aid" for the stab & +35 "Revive" for the actual revive or not at all. I want to revive and help my team efficiently in the first place.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 681	Posted - 2014.11.16 18:32:00 - [960] - Quote RKKR wrote: After running around with the injector without a squad: First of all, running without a squad makes a logi more vurnable as you don't have teammates (to communicate) to protect you and that random have none to almost no situational awareness (with the consequences that you have to use your gun yourself more than usual to protect your pretty ass). This also leads to blueberries dying in places where it is too dangerous to revive. The case of joining a good squads are rare, but they are usually happy that you are using a proto-injector which leads in more patience to being revived (in the case if they do die). It seems that enough people are calling for help, my problem HOWEVER is that people usually call TOO LATE for their revival: In most cases I could have revived a blue dot successfully if they had called for help much sooner. By the time that they called for help the enemy team would have usually taken over the position, making a revive too dangerous or impossible. When two dots died at one location and they both ask for help at a different time. I think this explains itself, it's a waste of effort/opportunity and I'm already wasting my time shooting red berries myself most of the time due to the stupidity of randoms. On being revived myself (usually doesn't happen): lol people still time their revives badly, sometimes I'm already dead before I gain control over my character. Possible solution: Make it so that you can stab people and that they have to accept the revive after they got stabbed (oh, I guess this was proposed many times before....). I don't care if you give WP after he accepts the revive or not or divide it between a +35 "first aid" for the stab & +35 "Revive" for the actual revive or not at all. I want to revive and help my team efficiently in the first place. If I understand correctly you are saying to allow needle pickup everytime and the downed player can decide whether to accept the revive or not. I like that more than just calling out for an injection or not. I don't know how difficult that might be to program for or whether that would be client or server side, but either way I like it. Lets me do my job and move on. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3871	Posted - 2014.11.16 20:07:00 - [961] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: TL;DR version We need to change the end of match leaderboads and actual leaderboards so shallow s.o.b.s can stop tearing down ideas that are good for logis. P.S. Payouts would also have to be looked at, and can we please change how we earn orbitals? P.P.S. Changing the leaderboards like this would also improve new player retention because giving praise to a gamer is like giving crack to an addict. After rereading this I realize that it really doesn't belong in this topic. this is why I keep suggesting that triage bonuses should be reduced while things like equipment destruction and Intel assist should be increased. also Sentinels should have another way of earning wp since they are not able to use equipment. I'm actually highly opposed to that, it is already meaningfully more expensive to run a full on logistics fit than the equivalent assault fitting reducing logistics earnings while raising assault earnings would only serve to exacerbate a currently persistent problem. We can do things such as discount equipment and so forth but the simple fact is that since logi have more mod slots to fill in order to run the role, due to equipment being a mod, they need to be able to have a higher potential rewards curve in order to have and *equal* risk vs reward baseline. Until the risk vs reward ratio for each role is even it will always be on balance more profitable to run one over the other for an average player context. All of that aside, balancing around epeen considerations such as what to kdr kittens want to stroke their egos is a very bad practice indeed because someone who is focused on 'status' and FotM chasing wants an advantage they do not wish the game to be balanced (speaking broadly, there are of course exceptions). I suggest we focus on fixing what is broken and to the best of our ability discount factors which are outside of balance - such as who falls where on the leaderboards. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: To be clear, I would support an increase to both equipment destruction (no higher than 10pts per however) and to scanner intel (20 + having them give WP for team scans should be sufficiently ample). On the note of scanners, having them give team scans without team scans giving WP is a nerf to scanner potential earnings and I am intent on seeing it changes. As far as the ability to run a sustainable logi is concerned the current scanning mechanics are a step backwards. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3871	Posted - 2014.11.16 20:22:00 - [962] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Forgive me for not reading the whole thread, but I am under time constraints. I have only a few things to say as a jack of all trades in the game, and I'm sure it will all be unpopular because I am recommending nerfs to adjust for all of it's benifits. Repair tools, like everything else in the game has done so far, needs an anti-point farming mechanic built in. We nerfed nano hives and uplinks because they were too easy to just continuously farm points with, despite their usefulness to the team. The repair tool should be no different. I know points cut off if the person you're repairing hasn't done damage within a set amount of time, but the amount of points able to be accrued with a repair tool has been a bit laughable for a long time now (Reference: I-Shayz-I videos). I have no problem with a logi being able to work hard and do poorly k/d wise and still hit the top, I'm merely saying the repair tool allows a logi with a heavy or two to repair all match to be at the top in pretty much every match. All I'm saying is is that they are being a little overcompensated WP-wise for their role repairing. A slight drop to WP/rep cycle should smooth things out nicely, dropping it from 25 to 20 would probably even be enough. I have to respectfully disagree with you brother. Balancing around the top tier of players such as I-Shayz-I is one of the easiest ways to kill a role. If something is throttled hard enough so that the most successful in it are unable to perform beyond the current average of game play then everyone below them is pushed out. Conceptual acid test; Take the guys who won each officer weapons challenge and balance the stats on those guns around making the winners only able to hit a break even kdr in a match. See the problem? The repair tool at present is one of the only pieces of equipment reliably working for support play and even then it still faces rewards scaling problems (i.e. you have higher potential earnings with lower quality gear). Further a purely proto support if with less combat utility than my STD Assault can still go ISK negative if it dies 3 times in a match where it topped the leaderboard and earned 500K. Simply put the compensation for other equipment needs to be improved until support actions are at a 'livable' level for an average player who plays only the support role. (This should be true for all roles, and average player should not be forced to play another role just to grind ISK so they can play their main role.) Re: OBs - Agree that they should be assists for the whole squad not kills for the SL Re: Guardian awards - "Farming" is improper terminology for doing something that is clearly working as intended. CCP went so far as to put a separate, specific, named award into the game explicitly for the act of repping someone who is getting kills regardless of their armor status, it is a tactical asset and should be rewarded as such. All of that being said a more active repair tool method would be appealing, buy my character limit is low so see next post See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5078	Posted - 2014.11.16 20:23:00 - [963] - Quote Equipment needs a full scale rebalance in terms of isk price and utility, we both know this more than anything. Things like the flux nanohive/proximity scanner being useless while flux scanner is OP, or the fact that the most useful equipment that runs the least amount of risk of loss (switching to another suit at a supply depot), has the lowest isk price? Proto Uplinks cost barely anything at all and give out tons of wp passively, while scans only give you points when someone kills someone within an average of 10 seconds of the scan results displayed. They recently made weapon variants the same price as standard...I'm in favor of SIDGRADES being the same price, things like the focused equipment can be a bit more pricy. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2175	Posted - 2014.11.16 20:26:00 - [964] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: TL;DR version We need to change the end of match leaderboads and actual leaderboards so shallow s.o.b.s can stop tearing down ideas that are good for logis. P.S. Payouts would also have to be looked at, and can we please change how we earn orbitals? P.P.S. Changing the leaderboards like this would also improve new player retention because giving praise to a gamer is like giving crack to an addict. After rereading this I realize that it really doesn't belong in this topic. this is why I keep suggesting that triage bonuses should be reduced while things like equipment destruction and Intel assist should be increased. also Sentinels should have another way of earning wp since they are not able to use equipment. I'm actually highly opposed to that, it is already meaningfully more expensive to run a full on logistics fit than the equivalent assault fitting reducing logistics earnings while raising assault earnings would only serve to exacerbate a currently persistent problem. We can do things such as discount equipment and so forth but the simple fact is that since logi have more mod slots to fill in order to run the role, due to equipment being a mod, they need to be able to have a higher potential rewards curve in order to have and *equal* risk vs reward baseline. Until the risk vs reward ratio for each role is even it will always be on balance more profitable to run one over the other for an average player context. All of that aside, balancing around epeen considerations such as what to kdr kittens want to stroke their egos is a very bad practice indeed because someone who is focused on 'status' and FotM chasing wants an advantage they do not wish the game to be balanced (speaking broadly, there are of course exceptions). I suggest we focus on fixing what is broken and to the best of our ability discount factors which are outside of balance - such as who falls where on the leaderboards. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: To be clear, I would support an increase to both equipment destruction (no higher than 10pts per however) and to scanner intel (20 + having them give WP for team scans should be sufficiently ample). On the note of scanners, having them give team scans without team scans giving WP is a nerf to scanner potential earnings and I am intent on seeing it changes. As far as the ability to run a sustainable logi is concerned the current scanning mechanics are a step backwards. Is it possible to give WP based in item meta level? For instance, I destroy a militia link, that's 5 points. I destroy a Viziam link, that's 10 points. Conversely, a spawn on a militia link is reduced to 10 points. A spawn on a viziam link gives 30 points. These numbers can be changed, but we can reward logis better for using higher tier equipment, and reward assaults for destroying higher tier equipment. The better stuff you run, the more points you get, and the more payout you receive. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3873	Posted - 2014.11.16 20:34:00 - [965] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Equipment needs a full scale rebalance in terms of isk price and utility, we both know this more than anything. Things like the flux nanohive/proximity scanner being useless while flux scanner is OP, or the fact that the most useful equipment that runs the least amount of risk of loss (switching to another suit at a supply depot), has the lowest isk price? Proto Uplinks cost barely anything at all and give out tons of wp passively, while scans only give you points when someone kills someone within an average of 10 seconds of the scan results displayed. They recently made weapon variants the same price as standard...I'm in favor of SIDGRADES being the same price, things like the focused equipment can be a bit more pricy. All true, also the costs seem to have no clear correlation to the CPU/PG fittings requirements in many cases and that's not even getting into the effects of interracial balance when which gear is optimized comes into play. My major point however is that the baseline needs to be both established and functional prior to a focus on scaling anything back. The role as a whole is at present under performing and while some aspects may need to be scaled back eventually that should be done after a functioning sustainable baseline for the role is found to ensure that said baseline is maintained. Alena Ventrallis wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: TL;DR version We need to change the end of match leaderboads and actual leaderboards so shallow s.o.b.s can stop tearing down ideas that are good for logis. P.S. Payouts would also have to be looked at, and can we please change how we earn orbitals? P.P.S. Changing the leaderboards like this would also improve new player retention because giving praise to a gamer is like giving crack to an addict. After rereading this I realize that it really doesn't belong in this topic. this is why I keep suggesting that triage bonuses should be reduced while things like equipment destruction and Intel assist should be increased. also Sentinels should have another way of earning wp since they are not able to use equipment. I'm actually highly opposed to that, it is already meaningfully more expensive to run a full on logistics fit than the equivalent assault fitting reducing logistics earnings while raising assault earnings would only serve to exacerbate a currently persistent problem. We can do things such as discount equipment and so forth but the simple fact is that since logi have more mod slots to fill in order to run the role, due to equipment being a mod, they need to be able to have a higher potential rewards curve in order to have and *equal* risk vs reward baseline. Until the risk vs reward ratio for each role is even it will always be on balance more profitable to run one over the other for an average player context. All of that aside, balancing around epeen considerations such as what to kdr kittens want to stroke their egos is a very bad practice indeed because someone who is focused on 'status' and FotM chasing wants an advantage they do not wish the game to be balanced (speaking broadly, there are of course exceptions). I suggest we focus on fixing what is broken and to the best of our ability discount factors which are outside of balance - such as who falls where on the leaderboards. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: To be clear, I would support an increase to both equipment destruction (no higher than 10pts per however) and to scanner intel (20 + having them give WP for team scans should be sufficiently ample). On the note of scanners, having them give team scans without team scans giving WP is a nerf to scanner potential earnings and I am intent on seeing it changes. As far as the ability to run a sustainable logi is concerned the current scanning mechanics are a step backwards. Is it possible to give WP based in item meta level? For instance, I destroy a militia link, that's 5 points. I destroy a Viziam link, that's 10 points. Conversely, a spawn on a militia link is reduced to 10 points. A spawn on a viziam link gives 30 points. These numbers can be changed, but we can reward logis better for using higher tier equipment, and reward assaults for destroying higher tier equipment. The better stuff you run, the more points you get, and the more payout you receive. Something more dynamic like that is indeed what I would like to see, the question becomes largely one of technical constraint and finding out what can or cannot be done. That being said I would very much like to hear from the community what ideal solutions would look like so we can get as close to them as is technically feasible. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1058	Posted - 2014.11.16 21:24:00 - [966] - Quote ^ What about a system, where you only get (limited) WP after the blueberry that spawned on your uplink does something usefull +á la transportation WP system? I don't really know, just throwing something out here. Cross (or shy DEV), about the injector stuff above? is it doable?
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 119	Posted - 2014.11.16 21:35:00 - [967] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Things like the flux nanohive/proximity scanner being useless while flux scanner is OP, Snipped to just the part I wanted to address. Also, "@Cross" because I think he'd benefit from seeing this; More-or-less, the way to fix the proxy/flux scanner relationship is quite simple: swap the scan angles. If proxies continue to be underused, then widen the proxy scan angle some more. Flux scanners, however, should be pulled out when you need that pure scan range- like, say, hunting along a ridgeline for a sniper. As for the flux nanohive... I cannot conceive of any potential use for it, so I would argue that it would be simpler to simply remove it. At present it seems to only be useful if you want to spam hives, and so removing them makes it harder to spam hives (especially when combined with the nano changes in the 3rd iteration proposal), and also removes useless content. After all, I'm sure that it can be agreed that useless content is not content, it's a waste of space. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3878	Posted - 2014.11.16 22:46:00 - [968] - Quote Repair Revolution This will serve as a partial preview of the upcoming iteration on our logistics rework proposal, please provide feedback accordingly. (Also please pardon the very truncated presentation, I am typing this up when I should be getting ready for work so I have to keep it quite short) 1. Add an Infantry Shield Transporter (rep tool for shields) 2. Make repair actions more active. <-- Key feature, more below 3. Remove the cap from repair earnings (note this would not remove the 'in combat' requirements) 4. Logistics skill update - - Race or role wide bonuses to one/both 'rep tools' active pool (active what now? More below) Explanation Give repair tools the 'active pool' mechanic used by things like the cloaking device. In effect make them run off of their own "stamina pool". The repair tool would now provide scaled rep rewards correlated to the meta and type of tool used. A cap is no longer needed because the active pool depletes and refreshes dynamically preventing earnings beyond a maximum use case set by CCP for that tool. Guardian point mechanics remain the same, however with a new opportunity cost because of the 'pool' method now present on the repair tool, this rewards tactical play and user choice directly. Further WP would now be earned in much smaller portions on a WP/s basis. This when combined with earnings scaled to the tool in question eliminates the current reward disparity between high and low meta gear. These mechanics would apply to both shield and armor 'repair tools'. Further the active pool mechanic applies to each instance of equipment separately such that players who wish to have constant access to repair output can choose to equip more than one repair tool thus giving them a larger repair pool to employ at the cost of a higher 'buy in' via equipment slots and fittings costs. Point number 4 from above is a consideration being given to the logistics role as a support class within this system, providing some form of per level bonus to the rep pool (i.e. duration) for either armor, shields or a combination there of (depending on racial persuasion). This final element ensures that the newly revamped and active support tool will still be usable by other classes but always more effective when employed by a logistics frame. -= Other context =- Uplinks / Hives - Consider spam and some of the earnings potential on these nerfed, more details coming later as things develop but for now please provide feedback to the above idea with this in mind. Active Scanner - Presume that Team Scans give WP and that the scanner line has been split into two general groups, more effective squad only scanners and less effective team wide scanners. More details forthcoming after the eWar rework that CCP is currently taking feedback on. In closing I'm interested in impressions and ideas. Sorry for the rough nature of the presentation, I'm just crunched for time at the moment. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3878	Posted - 2014.11.16 22:48:00 - [969] - Quote RKKR wrote: ^ What about a system, where you only get (limited) WP after the blueberry that spawned on your uplink does something usefull +á la transportation WP system? I don't really know, just throwing something out here. Cross (or shy DEV), about the injector stuff above? is it doable? Injector stuff my be doable in a future iteration but would at minimum require another client patch to alter it in that manner. While I support the notion of it in the game play sense I am doubtful that it will be within our reach as a change within the near future. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Jack 3enimble Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 479	Posted - 2014.11.16 22:50:00 - [970] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Repair Revolution This will serve as a partial preview of the upcoming iteration on our logistics rework proposal, please provide feedback accordingly. (Also please pardon the very truncated presentation, I am typing this up when I should be getting ready for work so I have to keep it quite short) 1. Add an Infantry Shield Transporter (rep tool for shields) 2. Make repair actions more active. <-- Key feature, more below 3. Remove the cap from repair earnings (note this would not remove the 'in combat' requirements) 4. Logistics skill update - - Race or role wide bonuses to one/both 'rep tools' active pool (active what now? More below) Explanation Give repair tools the 'active pool' mechanic used by things like the cloaking device. In effect make them run off of their own "stamina pool". The repair tool would now provide scaled rep rewards correlated to the meta and type of tool used. A cap is no longer needed because the active pool depletes and refreshes dynamically preventing earnings beyond a maximum use case set by CCP for that tool. Guardian point mechanics remain the same, however with a new opportunity cost because of the 'pool' method now present on the repair tool, this rewards tactical play and user choice directly. Further WP would now be earned in much smaller portions on a WP/s basis. This when combined with earnings scaled to the tool in question eliminates the current reward disparity between high and low meta gear. These mechanics would apply to both shield and armor 'repair tools'. Further the active pool mechanic applies to each instance of equipment separately such that players who wish to have constant access to repair output can choose to equip more than one repair tool thus giving them a larger repair pool to employ at the cost of a higher 'buy in' via equipment slots and fittings costs. Point number 4 from above is a consideration being given to the logistics role as a support class within this system, providing some form of per level bonus to the rep pool (i.e. duration) for either armor, shields or a combination there of (depending on racial persuasion). This final element ensures that the newly revamped and active support tool will still be usable by other classes but always more effective when employed by a logistics frame. -= Other context =- Uplinks / Hives - Consider spam and some of the earnings potential on these nerfed, more details coming later as things develop but for now please provide feedback to the above idea with this in mind. Active Scanner - Presume that Team Scans give WP and that the scanner line has been split into two general groups, more effective squad only scanners and less effective team wide scanners. More details forthcoming after the eWar rework that CCP is currently taking feedback on. In closing I'm interested in impressions and ideas. Sorry for the rough nature of the presentation, I'm just crunched for time at the moment. Cheers, Cross So on the hives if the spam is nerfed does it mean the wp will increase for resupplies? If you look at the isk price for the hives the 10 wp for a resupply is garbage imho. That's why they're rarely on the field. edit: I like your involvement man, keep up the good work. Any word on a possible increased movement speed for the logi's?

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3878	Posted - 2014.11.16 22:54:00 - [971] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: As is usual, I agree with a lot of what RedBleach said, in particular I've always liked the Logi as "light medium" instead of the "heavy medium", though there is a good case to be made the other way. But if you do that, like he said, you better be putting a pretty sizable HP buff on the table. One place I do disagree though, is in the CPU/PG buff. Personally, while there are obvious issues with the Caldari CPU, and the Amarr logi PG has literally always been broken since it's creation... it was, what, some laughable amount like 20 PG at STD when it first existed? But, I don't think that a fitting resource buff to the level of the assault is the answer. I would favor a more modest buff and then a 50-100% increase to the fitting bonus instead, to make it relatively easy to fit proto equipment but not proto weapons. This is just a sort of pre-emptive thing to stop the slayerlogi derpiness that is 100% guaranteed to follow any buff to logis. By doing it with an EQ bonus you can very easily make the claim that the offensive capabilities of the suit will be at most only modestly better but the "intended" capability, as a support platform, is brought in line with the other frames. I completely agree. I suppose I have not taken the time to run numbers and fits to find the perfect PG/CPU combinations. I am with you that the key is to get proto gear and proto modules equipped and then have little left over so the sacrifices are between weapon level, grenade level (if at all), and side arm where applicable. If the bonus works and it allows me to maintain current fittings I am ready to move with it. But I need to take some time to wrap my head around why the Lower PG/CPU would work out. I don't want there to be a rush of slayer logi's but I do know that there are various types of Logistics characters. I typically fall on the Logibro side of things but a bomber fit must be just as viable, a logi that can kill/defend should be possible. I believe it boils down to the ease at which one can accomplish such a fitting. If it is easy for common newbs to jump into a logi and slay it up then there is a problem. But a creative individual that can tailor their playstyle and fitting to have a fit that can sadface the opponent is ok. But saying anything light that brings the logi hate for logistics killing anything - we all know this. Can you tell me Your PG/CPU suggestions and Why? I would just like to see something as an example about why the values are too much. Maybe what I ask is not available. I can get on board, I just need the logic. Very simple quick comment - and by all means continue with more input - before I run. The proposed changes as linked in the spreadsheet cannot be taken piecemeal or they are broken. The alteration to suit stats without the changes to role bonus are key here without one the other is not properly applying. With both in place logi frames being used without equipment have fewer resources than current, while logi frames being used with a full set of equipment will have more net resources to use. This combined effect allows for more freedom to buff the overall logi frame and role while still precluding any theoretical risk of use as a slayer suit. So, please carry on with the feedback, but bear in mind that with regards to the proposal if you are not considering the entire proposal then the suggestions will be distorted/broken. They are meant to be taken together, or not at all. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2178	Posted - 2014.11.16 23:51:00 - [972] - Quote I want to make a comment on "logi slayers" The reason we had killer bees to begin with wasn't that the logo suits were OP. It was because the assault and scout suits were all crap. Remember Gallente Assault with a shield recharge bonus? None of the assault bonuses were geared toward slaying. They were just kind of there. In the same instance, they had crap PG/CPUand a completely nonsensical slot layout (Amarr were supposed to dual tank. Remember that?) We will never have logo slayers again, because assault suits now have actual bonuses to killing instead of random stats. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 120	Posted - 2014.11.17 03:48:00 - [973] - Quote That's a very good point, and reminded me of a short conversation I had with a squad I was running with in Caldari FW... which was a painful experience (the FW part, that is). One squad member offered the opinion that he saw no reason to take sidearms away from logis- assaults (are intended to, at least) have awesome weapon bonuses, and more tank, while logis boast multiple equipment slots. He also was of the opinion that all logis should have four equipment slots. He presented an interesting viewpoint, IMO, in that he believed that the tradeoffs between assault and logi should effectively come down to base health and suit bonuses- assaults getting weapon bonuses and logis getting equipment bonuses, with assaults also having a base HP advantage. Also, Scanner Comments: I personally think that we should implement two different intel kill assist bonuses; the current +15 (or perhaps even buffed to a +20 or +25) for squadmates, and then +5 or +10 WPs for teammates. In practice, this would look like this: +15 (or +20/+25) WP Squad Intel Kill Assist +5 (or +10) WP Team Intel Kill Assist I think this offers a cleaner solution any issues with active scanners at present. IIRC, all scout suits are at 35 dB native profile, so an increased prevalence of scanners really shouldn't bother them, as the vast majority of the playerbase is likely to not be interested in making the ISK investment of taking their 36 dB precision ADV active scanner and upgrading to the 28 dB precision PRO version. I'd also like to see resupplies be retooled so that WPs are either rewards on a per-"pulse" basis, that is that for each "pulse" of ammo that a hive gives, you get WPs (likely only +5 WPs per pulse), or if the current "per-person" mechanic is retained then I would recommend doubling the bonus to +20 WPs. The disparity comes from the fact that with the former retooling of the resupply-reward mechanics each time you get an ammo pulse, the person who deployed the hive gets WP- for example, say I lay a K-2 nanohive down for Cross, who has a Scrambler Rifle with no SP invested in ammo capacity. He's completely dry of ammo, so has to go from 0 to 225 rounds. Each pulse of a K2 nano will deliver 22 or 23 rounds, depending on how CCP does their math. We'll just say it takes ten pulses to restore Cross's ammo entirely. If WPs are given for each pulse, at +5 WPs per pulse, then I now have 50 WPs worth of "Team Resupply" bonuses. If, on the other hand, the current mechanic is retained, then I would guess that I would probably have around 20 WPs- at the most- from resupplying Cross. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 685	Posted - 2014.11.17 05:30:00 - [974] - Quote OK, Opinions based on new Info WarPoints IFF tiered WP is available. If not I like the middle value. Hives - they are already weak as is the hive itself. But if we are comparing equipment based on tactical use and earning potential the hive have very limited earning potential, and are commonly not considered a tactical necessity, even if their use can turn the tide of an oncoming onslaught. I suppose the question should be asked from a statistical point of view: "Does the average player run out of ammo before death and could/do nano-hives tip the balance to save them from death? If statistics can prove they are devalued then their earnings should be increased. Either in Raw WP increase or potential increase in increased nanite count. Perhaps from a 10 - 15 - 20WP. That could be per tier as well.... actually I like that a little bit more. Drop Uplinks - Tactical value. High, but also can be very spammy. The new equipment adjustments will be great if that comes with a bandwidth for deployed EQ. Earnings could be based on tier as well: 15 - 20 - 25WP Active Scanner or Passive scanner bonus: Better idea is right before my post. And longer bonus time possibility not a 10 second but maybe a 15 - 18 second perhaps. Just thinking of how long distance to target and subsequent skirmish lasts. RePTool - Contingent upon WP per HP amount repped. Basing it around top player earnings is not a swell idea. Averages are something that CCP would have. But dropping it to 20 or 15 is manageable. But those changes with a repair reservoir... that will be tricky. and is that 15 or 20 per 40hp or 25hp? - I like it in quarter increments of 100, but I'm open. RESERVOIR IDEA The reservoir will be tricky to balance and should increase per tier. Should the skill 'repair tool' also increase that reservoir? and the limit? Will it be a time limit of 30 - 45 - 60 - 120 seconds? Recharge rate? Or will it be a reservoir of available HP to heal? I definitely believe it should be a reservoir of 'time active' and not HP and the skill should unlock the different tiers and work like the Amarr logi heat build up negation or build up the reservoir - essentially the same right now. I can like the idea. It would stop the simple following all match of heavy, BUT i dont like this mechanic UNLESS one can maintain the lock without draining the reservoir. This may work like just keeping a lock on a character or only having the reservoir deplete as reps/nanites are used. But I doubt that this is what you had in mind. LOCKING on is a little easier but can still be a pain in 1.9. And being forced to loose that lock in the middle of an engaged firefight or movement to a battle and then being unable to reengage because of other players moving through the field of view would be more frustrating than it is already. - And a feature like this should not make things more frustrating.... So why are doing this again? Is this just a CCP conditional thing or just a general idea that is floating out there? Because right now never needing to disengage is nice, but right now that also comes in handy. I don't like logi's that don't do anything else but I don't often see a logi that just does that. Even if there is a chubby chaser couple that is usually a highly communicative group - it is really hard to keep a Heavy alive without voice chat and an experience heavy. This adjustment would make communication Key. THEREFORE there MUST, MUST, MUST be an easily visible signal that a subject is being repped. The Yellow Screen pulse was a bit much, but can we just tone it down? Because the predominant amount of games played will be solos without voice and this is just making the support role much more difficult. BRING the yellow screen pulse. A signal for when the stream may be ending would be good to for a field communications. Three Pulse SOS visual and sound will help the healee and the reppee communicate. It must be a requirement for this kind of change to the system - surely you can see that. So, Idea is contingent on Lock on mechanism and Visual/Audio Communication of repping. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4560	Posted - 2014.11.17 05:31:00 - [975] - Quote The rep,tool changes are interesting. If we really can get a shield transporter then obviously I'd rework my bonus proposal, certainly regarding the Caldari, one could legitimately see giving them a shield rep bonus, Amarr/Gallente obviously an ar RL repo bonus, and potential,y both to the minmatar. Some interesting minmatar builds could come from that... As for deployable equipment, I really think the best solution is the bandwidth one, if that's not possible then some kind of limit that majorly favors cal/Amarr logis would be the next best move. Finally, scanners - eaving the actual nuts and bolts of db and duration/radius aside for now, but yes they do need work - and speaking strictly in terms of its rewards, I think the +15 for squad kill assists is probably still sufficient, provided you added 5-10 points for a team kill assist. My reasoning is that with all the ewar domination of the battlefield, it's a useful/necessary enough pierce of equipment that modest rewards are good enough to encourage use... At least in the current state of ewar, which is apparently changing. I'll try to get around to sharing some numbers and maybe some things in protofits regarding my proposal on modest resource buff and big fitting bonus buff, but victor had it pretty much right (it was me he was thinking of - there's something along those lines I posted in this thread somewhere). While its totally correct as mentioned a few posts up, the environment that created slayer logi's is long since gone, but there's a very irrational bias still lingering about it that unfortunately cannot be ignored lest there be backlash against any Logi buff. EDIT: just saw redbleac's post above. That's a real,y good point about lock on without depletion of the reservoir I hadn't thought of. That definitely should be addressed, and God yes, please give us back some kind of rep indicator. We toned down the red hit indicator flash, don't see why we can't do the same for reps, though in a perfect world with frequent real patches, a there are better ways to do it, like a pulse on your HUD. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 685	Posted - 2014.11.17 06:44:00 - [976] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: As is usual, I agree with a lot of what RedBleach said, in particular I've always liked the Logi as "light medium" instead of the "heavy medium", though there is a good case to be made the other way. But if you do that, like he said, you better be putting a pretty sizable HP buff on the table. ... By doing it with an EQ bonus you can very easily make the claim that the offensive capabilities of the suit will be at most only modestly better but the "intended" capability, as a support platform, is brought in line with the other frames. ... If the bonus works and it allows me to maintain current fittings I am ready to move with it. But I need to take some time to wrap my head around why the Lower PG/CPU would work out. ... Can you tell me Your PG/CPU suggestions and Why? I would just like to see something as an example about why the values are too much. Maybe what I ask is not available. I can get on board, I just need the logic. ... The proposed changes as linked in the spreadsheet cannot be taken piecemeal or they are broken. The alteration to suit stats without the changes to role bonus are key here without one the other is not properly applying. With both in place logi frames being used without equipment have fewer resources than current, while logi frames being used with a full set of equipment will have more net resources to use. This combined effect allows for more freedom to buff the overall logi frame and role while still precluding any theoretical risk of use as a slayer suit. So, please carry on with the feedback, but bear in mind that with regards to the proposal if you are not considering the entire proposal then the suggestions will be distorted/broken. They are meant to be taken together, or not at all. Cheers, Cross Thank you for the answer about taken as a whole or taken piece by piece. To that end I would throw my support in for the changes on principle. But not in their current state. The Equipment rework - even without the price changes - is sensible and couples well with the logistics bonus. But rereading that may have been tabled.... sorry. And it looked like removing the hidden skill bonuses were out as well... The Reduced CPU/PG - I still cant buy in. I get that we may have more fitting power but is it still enough to make great fittings? I have some pretty rockin setups that still hunger for more PG and CPU and that is still with just proto and ADV Modules and a basic Grenade or none at all. I am Hesitant to say the least without an increase in CAL CPU and Amarr PG. The current setup of removing the hidden bonuses and kinda adding that bonus to my fit does not help my fitting in my maths. (25% logi bonus of 10pg) + (25% skill bonus of 10pg) = 5 and (50% Logi bonus of 10pg) + (0% of skill bonus) = 5. Without the cost increase for other suits I don't see the benefit and that means that lowering my CPU and PG is dog logic, and they are not very good mathematicians. I am still left with less. My equipment still takes up the same amount. The Logistics bonus would have to be in the neighborhood of 75% net total to get my fittings anything close to what they are now.... and that is still untenable for most of the solid fits. Throttle PG/CPU but make it count with the bonus. I can math it if needed. But I'll trust you Cross. SO STATS IF we do this (PG/CPU nerf) Make it worth while. I feel that we are week in that stats proposal. We are taking a cut. Hard and true fact. - and the logi suit still sucks right now. The throttled stat increases in other areas do not make this a stronger suit or even a better logi. Let me Pick for the Team. A logi either follows a set group or is darting all over the field. Our operations DEMAND that we soak up some damage for revives and repping and then recover. We cannot stay in a fire fight but should be able to fight back, run away, duck behind cover, and fire off some pot shots at enemies. HP Buff - 100 shy of Assault with less fitting power? That seems reasonable. But to get other buffs i could leave this. Shield Regen... Buff it. We are geeky like that. Less HP but we make it count. We can take a few hits and recover it quicker, but we are still more squishy. This Is Required for our role. Our revives need it and our repping jobs need it. In between a Scout and Assault. Because it is dumb to follow someone into battle and not be able to recover from a few stray shots fast enough to keep helping your subject. A Logi must have a high strafe/move speed. Above an assaults. and below a scouts. We follow a group of variable speeds and being the slowest or second to slowest gimps the team and the role. We float around the field where needed, that is part of the role, in less protection than everyone but scouts. Sprinting should be Higher or Equal to an assaults base stat. We sprint in bursts. From teammate to teammate and back again. A high sprint coupled with a high sprint regen works. - for everything else, green bottle. Stamina Pool should be lower than an assaults. This is how we pay for part of the regens (nerfing PG/CPU to please those fearful of being killed by a logi pays for the rest). Lower pool but higher regen means we can't maintain top speeds long, but we are more effective running short ranges than huffing it through a building and up the stair or across the plains. We have alot of crap we are carrying that takes most of our effort. We are sprinters not marathoners. Don't settle. Stats are weak for our role. My thoughts. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5084	Posted - 2014.11.17 07:06:00 - [977] - Quote I really don't want a shield rep tool in this game. It would be the most OP thing ever, and no one realizes why. Once you get them down to armor you might be able to take out 100 armor but then they rep shield HP back again. While you are busy taking out the constantly repping shields, the player's armor is slowly regenerating in the background. With armor repair tools you kill the guy if his HP drops to 0, but shield suits stay alive and can be repped after shields drop to 0. Even if you make it so that all it does is activate the player's personal recharge and doesn't actually add anything more to it, the only way to kill shield suits being repped would be to use a ton of alpha damage. When it comes to heavies, Armor Sentinels with HMGs wouldnt be able to do anything to repped shield suits (unless they take out the logi of course) 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 685	Posted - 2014.11.17 07:07:00 - [978] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: The rep,tool changes are interesting. If we really can get a shield transporter then obviously I'd rework my bonus proposal, certainly regarding the Caldari, one could legitimately see giving them a shield rep bonus, Amarr/Gallente obviously an armor rep bonus, and potentially both to the minmatar. Some interesting minmatar builds could come from that... As for deployable equipment, I really think the best solution is the bandwidth one, if that's not possible then some kind of limit that majorly favors cal/Amarr logis would be the next best move. My only issue with the various proposals to give more WP or whatever for proto is the potential negative impact on new players, Finally, scanners - eaving the actual nuts and bolts of db and duration/radius aside for now, but yes they do need work - and speaking strictly in terms of its rewards, I think the +15 for squad kill assists is probably still sufficient, provided you added 5-10 points for a team kill assist. My reasoning is that with all the ewar domination of the battlefield, it's a useful/necessary enough pierce of equipment that modest rewards are good enough to encourage use... At least in the current state of ewar, which is apparently changing. I'll try to get around to sharing some numbers and maybe some things in protofits regarding my proposal on modest resource buff and big fitting bonus buff, but victor had it pretty much right (it was me he was thinking of - there's something along those lines I posted in this thread somewhere). While its totally correct as mentioned a few posts up, the environment that created slayer logi's is long since gone, but there's a very irrational bias still lingering about it that unfortunately cannot be ignored lest there be backlash against any Logi buff. EDIT: just saw redbleach's post above. That's a really good point about lock on without depletion of the reservoir I hadn't thought of. That definitely should be addressed, and God yes, please give us back some kind of rep indicator. We toned down the red hit indicator flash, don't see why we can't do the same for reps, though in a perfect world with frequent real patches, a there are better ways to do it, like a pulse on your HUD. I can understand the sentiment of it being harder for newberries to break through. But then where is the drive for better equipment beyond the repper that will be based on HP repped? I like it only because there is a value system associated with bringing better gear to the field. Supposedly bringing better fire arms or using better modules increases Potential WP. Killing, hacking, etc. more and faster. But our current system gives the same reward for using equipment that gives the same reward despite its benefit to the receiving party. More Ammo or faster spawns are useful. If we do not pay for that use then it rarely happens. I will remind the group of the time when we received nothing for repping. Rep tools went away in a big way unless you were a dedicated logi. Points/money/recognition are what basically drives most actions in this game. Psychology influences these things in a big way. You want X, offer Y and not Z. We want players to all use better gear and new logis too, driving them to this class. The class with a great WP potential with gear. Overall the Risk vs Reward is key. If a player knows that they can get potentially more points from an item, and it is better for the team (assuming higher tiers often do (protostomping is a good example)) then leading Newberries to water with more points is a great way of indirect communication to push onward into skilling higher gear. Regardless of whether they throw down the nanohive or uplink they still know that they could. And knowing that you can is almost as satisfying.... almost but not enough as we all know. So we struggle and strive until we are successful. And that keeps them using better gear, which keeps the isk train going, which keeps people playing the game... ok maybe not in that order. It is a good move for CCP I think. Right now the only gear, worth it point wise, is weapons, suits and modules, and the rep tool because we can easily see the WP earning potential activated by the effects on KDR. So, people go for the FoTM or suits they know can dish out damage. We want people to use better gear that is better for the team we need to offer a dumb proof signal on what it better. More WP for higher tiered Gear is an easy signal. Coding might not be, but the points certainly get the message across. just an idea. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Juedfin90 BLACK-GUARD E.B.O.L.A. 6	Posted - 2014.11.17 10:12:00 - [979] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: I really don't want a shield rep tool in this game. It would be the most OP thing ever, and no one realizes why. Once you get them down to armor you might be able to take out 100 armor but then they rep shield HP back again. While you are busy taking out the constantly repping shields, the player's armor is slowly regenerating in the background. With armor repair tools you kill the guy if his HP drops to 0, but shield suits stay alive and can be repped after shields drop to 0. Even if you make it so that all it does is activate the player's personal recharge and doesn't actually add anything more to it, the only way to kill shield suits being repped would be to use a ton of alpha damage. When it comes to heavies, Armor Sentinels with HMGs wouldnt be able to do anything to repped shield suits (unless they take out the logi of course) I agree with you that we need mechanics that regular this case. But first of all, are you a logi? If I take the core repper with my pro mini logi and play together with my boddy that is full pro amarr, he never dies if someone protects my back....i rep him since the last year, doing most of the time nothing else... He just dies if I die....so the difference isnt that big. But i agree it could be a small problem, but easy to handy... solution: Add a delay, so if someone is down with his shield (even being shield repped) add a delay . So the Heavy has to cover or die.... Next question is how long this delay has to be? I think when we take the Cal sentinel for example, his left armor would be about 450 HP. So you just need 1-2 seconds to kill him. This time should be the time of the Delay. ----> with that solution it would not make a difference of shield or armour rep. Because both would die if they are completly down with their main HP " If you aren´t strong, be smart " citation from Sun Zu´s Book Tactics of War
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5066	Posted - 2014.11.17 10:47:00 - [980] - Quote Just make shield transporters and armor rep exclusive. Cannot lock a target that is being repped or having shields repped. Since native regen is powerful all shield transporters should do is keep regen going and add +15/+20/+25 shields regenerated. Putting them at the same rep numbers as armor reps ould be horrendously broken. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2180	Posted - 2014.11.17 12:30:00 - [981] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Just make shield transporters and armor rep exclusive. Cannot lock a target that is being repped or having shields repped. Since native regen is powerful all shield transporters should do is keep regen going and add +15/+20/+25 shields regenerated. Putting them at the same rep numbers as armor reps ould be horrendously broken. Considering that armor rep tools would be in the region of 150 hp/s, armor has more health, and the shield damaging weapons are some of the highest DPS in the game, how is shield reps matching armor reps broken? Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5071	Posted - 2014.11.17 12:42:00 - [982] - Quote Because you get proportionally more benefit by having the same amount of rep on a tinier HP pool. Self regen is supposed to be the strength of shield fits over HP. Providing a greater benefit to a smaller HP Pool will simply change the most favored fit from amarr/gallente sentinel to caldari and minmatar. This benefits no one. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5086	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:21:00 - [983] - Quote Juedfin90 wrote: But first of all, are you a logi? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I've been a logi since I first stated regularly playing this game, way back in the closed beta. Introducing a shield rep tool just makes things more complicated than they need to be. Did you know that vehicles once had shield transporters? The reason why they were actually somewhat balance was that you could only have them active for a certain amount of time, and then there was a 30 second delay which you had to let the module recharge before being able to use it again. Adding delays? Preventing locks by different types of repair tools? Giving repair tools a cooldown or energy "pool" like cloaks and scanners have? Honestly we need to stop trying to suggest so many ideas at once and actually focus on one thing at a time here. Nothing against you Cross, but this thread feels more like an idea farm than a productive way to gather feedback. You should convince rattati to create a sticky for a specific change we want feedback about. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4562	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:48:00 - [984] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Juedfin90 wrote: But first of all, are you a logi? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I've been a logi since I first stated regularly playing this game, way back in the closed beta. Introducing a shield rep tool just makes things more complicated than they need to be. Did you know that vehicles once had shield transporters? The reason why they were actually somewhat balance was that you could only have them active for a certain amount of time, and then there was a 30 second delay which you had to let the module recharge before being able to use it again. Adding delays? Preventing locks by different types of repair tools? Giving repair tools a cooldown or energy "pool" like cloaks and scanners have? Honestly we need to stop trying to suggest so many ideas at once and actually focus on one thing at a time here. Nothing against you Cross, but this thread feels more like an idea farm than a productive way to gather feedback. You should convince rattati to create a sticky for a specific change we want feedback about. I got a kick out of that question myself. You're losing your street cred with the kids somehow Shayz, isn't that the second or even third person in this thread to question you? Gotta start promoting yourself more, maybe get a hype man or something! TBH, I think Cross does intend this thread more as an idea farm, from which he can draw things to propose to CCP, and then later on we get the manna from heaven of a Rattati thread outlining a buff to our class. (The problem with these threads is separating out the chaff, of course) As for the shield tool, this is just a guess on my part, but considering he is calling it an "infantry shield transporter" the logical conclusion is that it would work the same as the vehicular equivalent. I realize that he likened it to a rep tool, but that would be the easiest way to explain it to people who are unfamiliar with them. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5087	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:51:00 - [985] - Quote Actually I have to aplologize. I just read the changes proposed in that spreadsheet on the first page and pretty much agree with everything there. Only two things I have issues with: 1. Leave the changes to logistics racial bonuses alone for now aside from the 50% reduction to equipment and the overal increase in equipment cost. 2. No proposed changes to rebalancing equipment (aside from the deployable changes), yet we're still discussing adding a shield transporter. I'm going to spend the day updating my equipment spreadsheet and will propose some numbers for the variants along with isk prices. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 687	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:12:00 - [986] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: Juedfin90 wrote: But first of all, are you a logi? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I've been a logi since I first stated regularly playing this game, way back in the closed beta. Introducing a shield rep tool just makes things more complicated than they need to be. Did you know that vehicles once had shield transporters? The reason why they were actually somewhat balance was that you could only have them active for a certain amount of time, and then there was a 30 second delay which you had to let the module recharge before being able to use it again. Adding delays? Preventing locks by different types of repair tools? Giving repair tools a cooldown or energy "pool" like cloaks and scanners have? Honestly we need to stop trying to suggest so many ideas at once and actually focus on one thing at a time here. Nothing against you Cross, but this thread feels more like an idea farm than a productive way to gather feedback. You should convince rattati to create a sticky for a specific change we want feedback about. I got a kick out of that question myself. You're losing your street cred with the kids somehow Shayz, isn't that the second or even third person in this thread to question you? Gotta start promoting yourself more, maybe get a hype man or something! TBH, I think Cross does intend this thread more as an idea farm, from which he can draw things to propose to CCP, and then later on we get the manna from heaven of a Rattati thread outlining a buff to our class. (The problem with these threads is separating out the chaff, of course) As for the shield tool, this is just a guess on my part, but considering he is calling it an "infantry shield transporter" the logical conclusion is that it would work the same as the vehicular equivalent. I realize that he likened it to a rep tool, but that would be the easiest way to explain it to people who are unfamiliar with them. That made me laugh too :) The shield transporter, does it need to a limiter then? Or a cool down period? What if it was an AOE type of tool? Much like a hive but not deployable? I'm kinda thinking of the vehicle scan animation centered on the user. Could be OP as hell or it could just offer a temp buff lowering recharge time and increasing shield recharge.... no nevermind. Don't need that kind of "active module" idea now... but I wouldn't even know where to begin with balancing a shield repping tool. Unless it repairs shield even when a subject is into armor. The damage check first hits the shield amount and then carries over to armor. And when a Shield Transporter is active every second shields are restored, regardless of armor or shield recharge/depleted stats of the player receiving the repps. Meaning that the Shield transporter doesn't mess with their stat values at all but just adds shield like our current armor repper despite the reppee's armor repair value. So, even if the damage received just a second ago depleted shields and went halfway into armor this current second the shields are repped a certain amount. ........... So just like a repair tool then........ Sorry to waste your time. I mention this only because I have read other posts that talk about the shield transporter altering or being affected by the receiving party's stats. I'm done, going to work. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1303	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:44:00 - [987] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Repair Revolution This will serve as a partial preview of the upcoming iteration on our logistics rework proposal, please provide feedback accordingly. (Also please pardon the very truncated presentation, I am typing this up when I should be getting ready for work so I have to keep it quite short) 1. Add an Infantry Shield Transporter (rep tool for shields) 2. Make repair actions more active. <-- Key feature, more below 3. Remove the cap from repair earnings (note this would not remove the 'in combat' requirements) 4. Logistics skill update - - Race or role wide bonuses to one/both 'rep tools' active pool (active what now? More below) Explanation Give repair tools the 'active pool' mechanic used by things like the cloaking device. In effect make them run off of their own "stamina pool". The repair tool would now provide scaled rep rewards correlated to the meta and type of tool used. A cap is no longer needed because the active pool depletes and refreshes dynamically preventing earnings beyond a maximum use case set by CCP for that tool. Guardian point mechanics remain the same, however with a new opportunity cost because of the 'pool' method now present on the repair tool, this rewards tactical play and user choice directly. Further WP would now be earned in much smaller portions on a WP/s basis. This when combined with earnings scaled to the tool in question eliminates the current reward disparity between high and low meta gear. These mechanics would apply to both shield and armor 'repair tools'. Further the active pool mechanic applies to each instance of equipment separately such that players who wish to have constant access to repair output can choose to equip more than one repair tool thus giving them a larger repair pool to employ at the cost of a higher 'buy in' via equipment slots and fittings costs. Point number 4 from above is a consideration being given to the logistics role as a support class within this system, providing some form of per level bonus to the rep pool (i.e. duration) for either armor, shields or a combination there of (depending on racial persuasion). This final element ensures that the newly revamped and active support tool will still be usable by other classes but always more effective when employed by a logistics frame. -= Other context =- Uplinks / Hives - Consider spam and some of the earnings potential on these nerfed, more details coming later as things develop but for now please provide feedback to the above idea with this in mind. Active Scanner - Presume that Team Scans give WP and that the scanner line has been split into two general groups, more effective squad only scanners and less effective team wide scanners. More details forthcoming after the eWar rework that CCP is currently taking feedback on. In closing I'm interested in impressions and ideas. Sorry for the rough nature of the presentation, I'm just crunched for time at the moment. Cheers, Cross As long as all logistics get some form of 'time extension'. Via,longer operation times,shorter cooldowns,etc. With their racial tool this wouldn't be a bad change. It's other suits using rep tools the same length and effect that has me concerned. Readjusting (additional) bonuses would be something like this: -Class equipment fitting reduction -Class rep tool/transporter operation time increase/cooldown reduction -Amarr-3rd highest rep amount,highest armor rep range (30m on the six kin) -Gal-highest armor rep amount,shortest armor rep range -Cal-highest shield rep amount,highest shield rep range -Min-2nd highest armor rep,2nd highest shield rep,medium range on both. I would like hybrid tools,shield and armor rep,to match the Min bonuses. So,armor rep Gal and Amarr-armor only,high rep amount (88,before bonuses) Shield rep Cal-shield only,high rep amount (30 (up for debate),before bonuses) Hybrid (dual tank) Min-shield and armor,medium to both (15 shield ,44 armor,before bonuses) Min would be the most utility based,able to help and armor,but would lose in a 'rep fight' vs specialist tools. Thoughts? P.S.Adding a shield tool wouldn't be hard,just change the beam color on regular rep tools from yellow to blue,presto more content. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4563	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:46:00 - [988] - Quote I honestly never had any direct experience with the vehicle shield transporter but since there's no equivalent to shield boosters I always envisioned the infantry version to either be a scaled-down remote shield booster, or basically get rid of recharge delays and such, repping shields whether you were taking damage or not... basically it makes your shield regen act like armor reps, constantly "on". Either way, fundamentally different from the current rep tool. Again, without firsthand knowledge of my own, to balance it I suppose you would mostly just work on two things: 1) How long it lasts for 2) How much it boosts the suits' inherent recharge rate... this one might be a programming issue as far as what they could or could not make it do. The remote shield booster is probably easier technically since the code already exists. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8494	Posted - 2014.11.17 17:15:00 - [989] - Quote I think a shield repair tool should kick start your regen. How much it repairs per second is up to your suit. Although, that may cause some problems, but I think the initial concept is interesting. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2186	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:53:00 - [990] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Because you get proportionally more benefit by having the same amount of rep on a tinier HP pool. Self regen is supposed to be the strength of shield fits over HP. Providing a greater benefit to a smaller HP Pool will simply change the most favored fit from amarr/gallente sentinel to caldari and minmatar. This benefits no one. Only true if you use the rep tool to repair people AFTER a fight. If you repair DURING a fight, a larger health pool is better. This is why AmSentinels stack plates instead of reps. The more health you have to repair, the longer that health pool lasts before the DPS overwhelms your reps and the sentinel dies. An armor rep at 150 hp/s on a 1344 health pool and a shield rep at 150 hp/s on a 929 health pool, which lasts longer? The 1344 health pool. If anything, the shield rep tools should be higher than armor rep tools since shield is focused on regen. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5088	Posted - 2014.11.17 20:35:00 - [991] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Because you get proportionally more benefit by having the same amount of rep on a tinier HP pool. Self regen is supposed to be the strength of shield fits over HP. Providing a greater benefit to a smaller HP Pool will simply change the most favored fit from amarr/gallente sentinel to caldari and minmatar. This benefits no one. Only true if you use the rep tool to repair people AFTER a fight. If you repair DURING a fight, a larger health pool is better. This is why AmSentinels stack plates instead of reps. The more health you have to repair, the longer that health pool lasts before the DPS overwhelms your reps and the sentinel dies. An armor rep at 150 hp/s on a 1344 health pool and a shield rep at 150 hp/s on a 929 health pool, which lasts longer? The 1344 health pool. If anything, the shield rep tools should be higher than armor rep tools since shield is focused on regen. Shields aren't meant to be stand and deliver defense or good for brawling. Rep tools with even numbers with armor would merely encourage the behavior and laziness over tactics. It'll also just change most favored suits from Amsent/galsent to Calsent/Minsent. So we swap one idiocy engine for the same thing with different looks. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1306	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:20:00 - [992] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Because you get proportionally more benefit by having the same amount of rep on a tinier HP pool. Self regen is supposed to be the strength of shield fits over HP. Providing a greater benefit to a smaller HP Pool will simply change the most favored fit from amarr/gallente sentinel to caldari and minmatar. This benefits no one. Only true if you use the rep tool to repair people AFTER a fight. If you repair DURING a fight, a larger health pool is better. This is why AmSentinels stack plates instead of reps. The more health you have to repair, the longer that health pool lasts before the DPS overwhelms your reps and the sentinel dies. An armor rep at 150 hp/s on a 1344 health pool and a shield rep at 150 hp/s on a 929 health pool, which lasts longer? The 1344 health pool. If anything, the shield rep tools should be higher than armor rep tools since shield is focused on regen. Shields aren't meant to be stand and deliver defense or good for brawling. Rep tools with even numbers with armor would merely encourage the behavior and laziness over tactics. It'll also just change most favored suits from Amsent/galsent to Calsent/Minsent. So we swap one idiocy engine for the same thing with different looks. Shields also have projectile damage reduction (HMG),which would make Cal/Min the new heavy killers. Which is why i suggested hybrid tools. It would destroy the 'shields or armor are op' sentiment. My suggestion:take the highest innate suit regen and work from there. E.G.Suit has 50 sp/s. Shield tool adds 38 sp/s (at Pro) to equal 88 (six kin). Then make shield delays vanish while being repped. So,it would add to the innate reps but not encompass them. Then add a Cal/Min bonus to increase that amount (the 38 sp/s rep tool),to keep logistics as the #1 reppers. So,on a 50 sp/s suit it would be 88 total,on a 30 sp/s suit it would be 68 sp/s total. OP? Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 688	Posted - 2014.11.18 01:49:00 - [993] - Quote So there are definitely a few ideas out there on how to work a shield repper. I believe that a set amount of shield reps per tool would be a safe approach. Negating a shield delay only is an affect that can be adjusted or removed as Devs see fit. But a shield transporter that just allows a player to recharge shields faster, by removing the innate delays, will be widely variable between every suit, race, and class on the field. I like the Shield Transporter repping a certain amount like the Armor Repper because that set amount can be calculated and adjusted. It can be used in and out of battle with a consistency that allows the Player operating the tools to judge when to use it and, especially in battle, when to communicate to others to fall back to complete the reps. A transporter that was widely varied, that fed off the base recharge of a suit would not allow the Logi to estimate what the best service to provide will be as every suit setup is different. Also, if there is a set amount of reps that is easily seen when countering damage being taken, all leading me to say I want to be able to quickly judge a situation and know the best approach - and one that widely varies is not reliable and will be thrown away by my solutions centered tactics. Now if there was a feature that also put the shield delays at zero when being repped we have a situation like the Armor repper where passives are always active regardless of external repping. But as each class and race has a distinctly different shield regen rate (that can be augmented) overlapping that rate with that of the Transporter would create some very new battle situations. And some new unique builds for when running with a shield repper. I have yet to rep and follow a heavy that has only Armor rep modules in the lows making a total of 200+ per second of regen when a core focused is going to work on them in battle - but I would welcome any stories about how it worked out or if brick tanking and logi reps were just the best way to got. Because this Shield transporter would create situation like that where I begin to wonder if we could start repping through an absurd amount of damage. So I would vote for a Transporter that has a set amount. I am not opposed to a Dual Repper that grants Shields and Armor but it would be interesting to see the numbers that would balance. - but this is also new territory, so who knows. I would be cautious about a system that solely relied on the subjects shield regen, but adding it as a bonus to being shield repped could make for some interesting situations. I will have to give the numbers some thought and run some experiments with fittings to see how it would work out. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2187	Posted - 2014.11.18 02:58:00 - [994] - Quote Meee One wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Because you get proportionally more benefit by having the same amount of rep on a tinier HP pool. Self regen is supposed to be the strength of shield fits over HP. Providing a greater benefit to a smaller HP Pool will simply change the most favored fit from amarr/gallente sentinel to caldari and minmatar. This benefits no one. Only true if you use the rep tool to repair people AFTER a fight. If you repair DURING a fight, a larger health pool is better. This is why AmSentinels stack plates instead of reps. The more health you have to repair, the longer that health pool lasts before the DPS overwhelms your reps and the sentinel dies. An armor rep at 150 hp/s on a 1344 health pool and a shield rep at 150 hp/s on a 929 health pool, which lasts longer? The 1344 health pool. If anything, the shield rep tools should be higher than armor rep tools since shield is focused on regen. Shields aren't meant to be stand and deliver defense or good for brawling. Rep tools with even numbers with armor would merely encourage the behavior and laziness over tactics. It'll also just change most favored suits from Amsent/galsent to Calsent/Minsent. So we swap one idiocy engine for the same thing with different looks. Shields also have projectile damage reduction (HMG),which would make Cal/Min the new heavy killers. Which is why i suggested hybrid tools. It would destroy the 'shields or armor are op' sentiment. My suggestion:take the highest innate suit regen and work from there. E.G.Suit has 50 sp/s. Shield tool adds 38 sp/s (at Pro) to equal 88 (six kin). Then make shield delays vanish while being repped. So,it would add to the innate reps but not encompass them. Then add a Cal/Min bonus to increase that amount (the 38 sp/s rep tool),to keep logistics as the #1 reppers. So,on a 50 sp/s suit it would be 88 total,on a 30 sp/s suit it would be 68 sp/s total. OP? So shields will have less health and less reps from their rep tool. How is this balanced? Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1308	Posted - 2014.11.18 05:38:00 - [995] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Meee One wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Because you get proportionally more benefit by having the same amount of rep on a tinier HP pool. Self regen is supposed to be the strength of shield fits over HP. Providing a greater benefit to a smaller HP Pool will simply change the most favored fit from amarr/gallente sentinel to caldari and minmatar. This benefits no one. Only true if you use the rep tool to repair people AFTER a fight. If you repair DURING a fight, a larger health pool is better. This is why AmSentinels stack plates instead of reps. The more health you have to repair, the longer that health pool lasts before the DPS overwhelms your reps and the sentinel dies. An armor rep at 150 hp/s on a 1344 health pool and a shield rep at 150 hp/s on a 929 health pool, which lasts longer? The 1344 health pool. If anything, the shield rep tools should be higher than armor rep tools since shield is focused on regen. Shields aren't meant to be stand and deliver defense or good for brawling. Rep tools with even numbers with armor would merely encourage the behavior and laziness over tactics. It'll also just change most favored suits from Amsent/galsent to Calsent/Minsent. So we swap one idiocy engine for the same thing with different looks. Shields also have projectile damage reduction (HMG),which would make Cal/Min the new heavy killers. Which is why i suggested hybrid tools. It would destroy the 'shields or armor are op' sentiment. My suggestion:take the highest innate suit regen and work from there. E.G.Suit has 50 sp/s. Shield tool adds 38 sp/s (at Pro) to equal 88 (six kin). Then make shield delays vanish while being repped. So,it would add to the innate reps but not encompass them. Then add a Cal/Min bonus to increase that amount (the 38 sp/s rep tool),to keep logistics as the #1 reppers. So,on a 50 sp/s suit it would be 88 total,on a 30 sp/s suit it would be 68 sp/s total. OP? So shields will have less health and less reps from their rep tool. How is this balanced? Well,shield tanks aren't supposed to be head-to-head combat. But imagine,if you will: -A Cal assault,shield tanked -A Cal logistics,shield repping If the tool removes all delays,that frees up all the Cal assaults' lows for things other than regs. Like: -damps -biotics -codebreakers Or even what logistics often gets tethered to,heavies. A Cal sent with a Cal logistics would be a fearful combo to encounter. And so would Gal sent with a Gal logistics. The Amarr logistics (which is the slowest) can rep from farther,it's range helps it recoup for its speed. Min,always being on the move have the lowest eHP pool,which is why hybrid tools would be fantastic,rep both tanks a marginal amount to keep on the move. Shield repping would offer a unique bonus that armor repping doesn't/can't,a whole low slot(s) open for alternative uses. It also would reward teamwork by saying "sure,you can go solo,or you can have a logibro and have all your lows freed up". Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3893	Posted - 2014.11.18 06:12:00 - [996] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: The Logistics bonus would have to be in the neighborhood of 75% net total to get my fittings anything close to what they are now.... and that is still untenable for most of the solid fits. Throttle PG/CPU but make it count with the bonus. I can math it if needed. But I'll trust you Cross. I would love to see numbers worked up especially with any annotation on how and why the contrast the current listings. This proposal has undergone so many revisions both within the community and internally (usually meaning I find out something either does not, or cannot, work mechanically as I had hoped and thus must be worked around) that it is sometimes hard for me to keep track of whether everything is current and as it should be with regard to the numeric details (these are of course important details but they are often derivative ones as well which makes them harder to keep track of). Anyway, if a concept seems sound but the specific numbers do not execute it properly then by all means feel free to provide alternatives you know me I'm big into discourse. Now, you have an entire post with a lot more 'meat' to it than the bit I've excerpted above and I am still reading (and re-reading) the thread but I just wanted to get this bit out right now. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 689	Posted - 2014.11.18 06:20:00 - [997] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: The Logistics bonus would have to be in the neighborhood of 75% net total to get my fittings anything close to what they are now.... and that is still untenable for most of the solid fits. Throttle PG/CPU but make it count with the bonus. I can math it if needed. But I'll trust you Cross. I would love to see numbers worked up especially with any annotation on how and why the contrast the current listings. This proposal has undergone so many revisions both within the community and internally (usually meaning I find out something either does not, or cannot, work mechanically as I had hoped and thus must be worked around) that it is sometimes hard for me to keep track of whether everything is current and as it should be with regard to the numeric details (these are of course important details but they are often derivative ones as well which makes them harder to keep track of). Anyway, if a concept seems sound but the specific numbers do not execute it properly then by all means feel free to provide alternatives you know me I'm big into discourse. Now, you have an entire post with a lot more 'meat' to it than the bit I've excerpted above and I am still reading (and re-reading) the thread but I just wanted to get this bit out right now. Cheers, Cross Thank you. Yours is a volunteer position. Elected but still a lay person. I appreciate the time you do put into your explanations, arguments, and thought descriptions. Thank you The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3896	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:08:00 - [998] - Quote All of you should check this out. It has a direct impact on the future of support and logistics play, please go read, comment, then come back here for further discussion as well regarding the implications. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 223	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:22:00 - [999] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: All of you should check this out. It has a direct impact on the future of support and logistics play, please go read, comment, then come back here for further discussion as well regarding the implications. Cheers, Cross HOLY CRAP, MY IDEA GOT USED!!! Ebola makes me feel all warm and squishy inside.
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5457	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:57:00 - [1000] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: All of you should check this out. It has a direct impact on the future of support and logistics play, please go read, comment, then come back here for further discussion as well regarding the implications. Cheers, Cross Interested in your take on this ^ Particularly when combined with the EWAR changes being discussed. Any concern that the Amarr Logi may become a go to all rounder suit? MOAR Ladders

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3897	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:25:00 - [1001] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Cross Atu wrote: All of you should check this out. It has a direct impact on the future of support and logistics play, please go read, comment, then come back here for further discussion as well regarding the implications. Cheers, Cross Interested in your take on this ^ Particularly when combined with the EWAR changes being discussed. Any concern that the Amarr Logi may become a go to all rounder suit? Doubtful in that fitting a full load of proto equipment, especially uplinks, still requires a great deal of CPU/PG and thus limits other capacities. That being said the greatest risk is that someone uses Amarr Logi fits without equipment in place and thus employs the BW mechanic passively after deploying a max equipment load, thus gaming the fittings system. Preventing exploits like that last case is exactly why I want to shift Logistics CPU/PG values downward somewhat while substantially buffing their role bonus with the net outcome that fittings using full proto equipment in all slots have a bit more fitting flex than they do currently but logi fits without a full rack of equipment have distinctly reduced fittings options than they do currently. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3897	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:26:00 - [1002] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: So with this idea in place, could you please increase STD and ADV logistics to their full PRO equipment count? There would still be a reason to skill up to PRO, but STD and ADV logis wouldn't be so limited in their equipment choice. Interested in everyones take on this notion, balanced, OP, a step for suit progression but not enough on its own? See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 868	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:03:00 - [1003] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Cat Merc wrote: So with this idea in place, could you please increase STD and ADV logistics to their full PRO equipment count? There would still be a reason to skill up to PRO, but STD and ADV logis wouldn't be so limited in their equipment choice. Interested in everyones take on this notion, balanced, OP, a step for suit progression but not enough on its own? My main reason for running proto logi in pubs for the majority of my dust career was simply because only having 4 equipment slots instead of 3 was too limiting for me. I can (and do) fit 3 proto equipment of an adv logi, problem is I never feel like I can do my job properly with only 3 slots. +1 equipment (and a minor buff to to fitting) to std and adv level logi suits, (in addition to balancing the mod slot progression) would make lower tier logi suits much more viable. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4581	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:12:00 - [1004] - Quote Wow. Bandwidth is possibly the greatest thing ever. Gonna have to spend some quality time with the spreadhseets and see if I have any input that might help you, Cross. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3903	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:16:00 - [1005] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Nothing against you Cross, but this thread feels more like an idea farm than a productive way to gather feedback. You should convince rattati to create a sticky for a specific change we want feedback about. That's basically what my job description as a CPM amounts to, "gather ideas from the playerbase and transmit them to CCP." "Farm" seems a bit pejorative but aside from that I would have to say "yes of course it is, that's what I was elected to do." In the case of the logistics class we cannot limit it to a 'specific change' in the same way that LW or Sidearm balance could be limited due to the interlinking nature of the support role. Now granted the currently linked version of the proposal is a bit outdated when considered in light of the native rep changes, the eWar debate, and the BW idea. But even so there is a specific proposal for feedback being linked and there really is no meaningful difference between providing feedback on the ideas now or waiting until after I present them to CCP Rattati and only then providing feedback... except that it takes up more of CCP Rattatis time duplicating work. This is one of the key reasons the CPM was formed in the first place, so that the Devs (let alone the team lead) did not need to micro manage everything directly and thus could address a greater volume in a more effective manner. If it is the communities preference that I simply build an idea and try to get CCP to push that directly into game I am certainly able to do so, however if - as I suspect - it is the communities preference to have direct input into shaping the process then this is how it is done, there is really nothing meaningfully different about a blue tag being on the OP. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3935	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:22:00 - [1006] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Actually I have to aplologize. I just read the changes proposed in that spreadsheet on the first page and pretty much agree with everything there. Only two things I have issues with: 1. Leave the changes to logistics racial bonuses alone for now aside from the 50% reduction to equipment and the overal increase in equipment cost. 2. No proposed changes to rebalancing equipment (aside from the deployable changes), yet we're still discussing adding a shield transporter. I'm going to spend the day updating my equipment spreadsheet and will propose some numbers for the variants along with isk prices. Looking forward to it EDIT: and also completing my full on read through of this thread up to current, sorry if some responses or somewhat outdated due to this See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 692	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:18:00 - [1007] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: The Logistics bonus would have to be in the neighborhood of 75% net total to get my fittings anything close to what they are now.... and that is still untenable for most of the solid fits. Throttle PG/CPU but make it count with the bonus. I can math it if needed. But I'll trust you Cross. I would love to see numbers worked up especially with any annotation on how and why the contrast the current listings. This proposal has undergone so many revisions both within the community and internally (usually meaning I find out something either does not, or cannot, work mechanically as I had hoped and thus must be worked around) that it is sometimes hard for me to keep track of whether everything is current and as it should be with regard to the numeric details (these are of course important details but they are often derivative ones as well which makes them harder to keep track of). Anyway, if a concept seems sound but the specific numbers do not execute it properly then by all means feel free to provide alternatives you know me I'm big into discourse. Now, you have an entire post with a lot more 'meat' to it than the bit I've excerpted above and I am still reading (and re-reading) the thread but I just wanted to get this bit out right now. Cheers, Cross MATHS or LOOK AT ME BE COMPLETELY WRONG: Quote: THE Problem with the PG/CPU change, Logi bonus, and equipment change currently proposed What I am looking for is a net benefit from changing my PG/CPU to generally lower CPU and PG. As we have discussed in this thread the LOGIstics Bonus offers a total of 25% off fitting cost of EQuipment. The skill nodes for many pieces of equipment unlock tiered gear and have fitting reduction cost with each level. This cost amounts to another 25% off of fitting costs for whomever levels the skill. Thus, in total a Logi can fit a piece of equipment, with the fitting reduction cost of his class and equipment skill, at 50% the PG/CPU cost. Logi Bonus: 25% Skill Bonus: 25% together it equals 50%. So when an item costs 20 CPU and 10 PG the logi recieves a fitting bonus to make the cost 10CPU and 5PG. The Proposal seeks to change these bonuses by removing the fitting bonus of the equipment skill (Skill Bonus: 0%), make the Logi Bonus 50%, and if that were all we would have a net gain of 0. Because the Logi would still have a total of 50% savings. BUT Equipment Fitting Cost may increase, resulting in net loss. Now the item is 25CPU and 14 PG; and with a fitting bonus of 50% the item is 12.5 CPU and 7PG. An increase in resource cost of 2.5CPU and 2PG - THERE is NO gain for the Logistics Class. On Top of that a PG/CPU Adjustment augments the pain by reducing available CPU and PG Proto Amarr Logi CPU: 390 PG: 72. With our original item of 20CPU/10PG (now 10/5 with the fitting cost reduction) equiped we are left with 380CPU and 67PG. The new Class bonus would leave that the same. (50% is 50%). But with the equipment changes the Logi would now have 378CPU and 65PG = NET LOSS ON TOP of THAT The PG/CPU change makes the Amarr logi now start with 370CPU and 74PG. Equipping our original item under the current system we have 360CPU and 69PG, BUT with the equipment change too we have 357.5CPU and 67PG... NET LOSS For each Racial Proto we have a Loss: Amr: 390/72 to 370/74 and with our item 378/65 to 357.5/67 = Loss of 21 CPU and Gain 2 PGU Cal: 350/78 to 370/74 and with our item 340/73 to 357.5/67 = Gain 17 CPU but Loss of 6 PGU Gal: 390/78 to 370/74 and with our item 380/73 to 357.5/67 = Loss of 23 CPU and 6 PGU Min: 390/78 to 370/74 and with our item 380/73 to 357.5/67 = Loss of 23 CPU and 6 PGU SO, Changes amount to NET LOSS. Not net gain. I use every spare unit of CPU and PG that I have to make great chubby chaser fits but they only fit 3 proto equipment to have proto modules as well. I build great and wonderful suits and dropping the CPU/PG will only hurt them, because many of these suits have to be viable when the team or teammate goes down to survive and bring the team back or run away. Any change in PG/CPU hurt the current builds. So with Fittings I run about 238-282 CPU and 43-50PG with 4E. Protofits.com with max fits, puts the adjusted use @ 186CPU/38PG... which makes me ask: that's 25%, what is the game like? BECAUSE ALL OF THIS ISN'T SOUNDING RIGHT! OK. Figured it out. Everyone Just calm down. Whatever we are saying the Skills are doing its not and they are messed up. I don't get a 50% fitting bonus to Hives, but it was also more than 25%. CCP does math Weird. A Logi does have the 25% Base fitting cost Reduction to Equipment. Some Skills add 25% after the initial Fitting Cost Bonus. Allotek Nano Hive 88CPU/16PG. 50% would be 44/8. 25% would be 66/12. But it ends up 49/12. No Change to PG but 88-(8825%)=66 and 66-(6625%)=49.5 That is how we get there. Two calculations and not one, I forgot we did that along time ago with dampeners. So really it is only a 45%CPU/25%PG bonus with the hidden bonuses. THE LOGI BONUS OF 50% DOES MATTER. AND IS AWESOME! IT would cut my normal equipment CPU/PG use on a proto suit IN HALF to 141CPU/25PG that could be spent on moving and ADV Module or two to Complex! THAT WOULD ROCK! and while the small loss in CPU/PG originally I am now convinced (as many others already were) that it is a NET GAIN for the LOGI. Now that math has proven itself the Logi bonuses I Have no Question about the LOGI CLASS bonus or reduction to CPU/PG. Well Done. While classifying the logi as the best EQ user and making the cost standardized for suits outside the LOGI class. btw: could we make a skill bonus add just 1% so it is not completely usless as a skill for all other classes? THIS IS TOOOOO AWESOME - I love MATH! The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 128	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:27:00 - [1008] - Quote For the record, that "hidden" bonus for nanohives comes from the Nanocircuitry skill providing a 5% CPU reduction per level to nanohives and needles. The only flaw of that skill is that it's simply not listed in the description that there's a CPU reduction bonus. Any "hotfix" of that should be to merely add the appropriate description to the skill so it's a case of "oh, hey, if I increase my Nanocircuitry skill, I get access to better hives and a reduction in hive/needle CPU usage? awesome!" Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 692	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:31:00 - [1009] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: For the record, that "hidden" bonus for nanohives comes from the Nanocircuitry skill providing a 5% CPU reduction per level to nanohives and needles. The only flaw of that skill is that it's simply not listed in the description that there's a CPU reduction bonus. Any "hotfix" of that should be to merely add the appropriate description to the skill so it's a case of "oh, hey, if I increase my Nanocircuitry skill, I get access to better hives and a reduction in hive/needle CPU usage? awesome!" Yep, it took me a while but i had to math it out to make sure I understood it. Just something about working through an issue, doing the numbers, and all that that make learning worthwhile. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8510	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:35:00 - [1010] - Quote . CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.

Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1309	Posted - 2014.11.19 10:09:00 - [1011] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Cat Merc wrote: So with this idea in place, could you please increase STD and ADV logistics to their full PRO equipment count? There would still be a reason to skill up to PRO, but STD and ADV logis wouldn't be so limited in their equipment choice. Interested in everyones take on this notion, balanced, OP, a step for suit progression but not enough on its own? Well,this seems ok in theory. But now we have a new factor,bandwith.(which is a great idea) As well as the cost of that extra equipment. 3 equipment slots with all ADV gear = ADV light weapon in costs. 4 equipment slots with all ADV gear = more than an ADV light weapon And as most logis know,ADV equipment is crap once Pro is available. And on my ADV fit i have 3 Pro equipment,which is about 50% of its cost. So,while i would like 4 slots,with such low survivability it would only make logistics that much more of an ISK sink. Logistics needs the built in ability to walk/run fast and hide,not hunt other suits. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1310	Posted - 2014.11.19 12:49:00 - [1012] - Quote Hey cross,i has a question. Is it possible to just straight up swap assaults and logistics speed and stamina values? My reasoning: -eHP (160 greater than logistics) Sent Assault Logis Scout (almost above logistics) -speed (faster than logistics) Scout Assault Logis Sent As plates and heavies show,more eHP = less speed and stamina. Assaults however have 400+ eHP and 0 speed loss. While logistics has 240-300 eHP and speed loss. It seems as if the assault speed penalty was slid over to logistics,while what should be logistics speed and stamina values were given to assaults. It would end like: -eHP(assaults have higher eHP,logistics has lower) Sent Assault Logis Scout -speed (logistics has better speed,assaults have lower) Scout Logistics Assault Sent This would be balanced,speed for eHP. Instead of assaults getting everything and logistics getting the shaft (as it does currently). After all,'slayer' logis were only 'slayers' because their ability to tank high eHP,not because they were fast. And with the 160 extra eHP,combined with logistics (stolen) slots that has become impossible. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4594	Posted - 2014.11.19 13:33:00 - [1013] - Quote Meee One wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Cat Merc wrote: So with this idea in place, could you please increase STD and ADV logistics to their full PRO equipment count? There would still be a reason to skill up to PRO, but STD and ADV logis wouldn't be so limited in their equipment choice. Interested in everyones take on this notion, balanced, OP, a step for suit progression but not enough on its own? Well,this seems ok in theory. But now we have a new factor,bandwith.(which is a great idea) As well as the cost of that extra equipment. 3 equipment slots with all ADV gear = ADV light weapon in costs. 4 equipment slots with all ADV gear = more than an ADV light weapon And as most logis know,ADV equipment is crap once Pro is available. And on my ADV fit i have 3 Pro equipment,which is about 50% of its cost. So,while i would like 4 slots,with such low survivability it would only make logistics that much more of an ISK sink. Logistics needs the built in ability to walk/run fast and hide,not hunt other suits. I don't think I'd make that blanket statement. KIN injectors are pretty decent now that they give shields, and the BDR-8 rep tool is extremely cost-effective in terms of both ISK and CPU/PG, probably even more so with a Min logi. STD links on my Amarr logi are about the same as anyone else's PRO links. Also, this change would be much bigger for the Amarr/Cal, we only have 2 EQ slots at STD, it's hard to do anything with that. Finally, you could always leave the 4th EQ slot empty (heresy, I know) if you really had to, but with a buff to the fitting bonus I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to put something there, even if was just a compact nano. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1228	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:11:00 - [1014] - Quote there need to be at least 4 main repair tools. 1 caldari shield tool 1 minmatar shield tool 1gallente armor tool 1 amarr armor tool + variants. the first 2 bonuses on a logi ship are always to remote repairers. logis need to reflect this. the second 2 bonuses would be secondary equipment buffs or survivability since not every race has a 2 equipment. actually only caldari does. nanos-injectors. gal have scanners. amarr have the uplinks.and min have explosives. (well 2 explosives, but both explosives) so either give the other 3 logis 3 new pieces of equipment or a small self sufficent tank bonus to counter nanohives on a cal. examples could be radar-comms jammers for gal? webifier mines/tools for minmatar since theyre speed kings? not sure for amarr. anyway you get 2 bonuses to repair tools. then bonuses to secondary equipment or health. and then a blanket rolebonus for all 4. JUST LIKE EVE. Meee One wrote: Hey cross,i has a question. Is it possible to just straight up swap assaults and logistics speed and stamina values? My reasoning: -eHP (160 greater than logistics) Sent Assault Logis Scout (almost above logistics) -speed (faster than logistics) Scout Assault Logis Sent As plates and heavies show,more eHP = less speed and stamina. Assaults however have 400+ eHP and 0 speed loss. While logistics has 240-300 eHP and speed loss. It seems as if the assault speed penalty was slid over to logistics,while what should be logistics speed and stamina values were given to assaults. It would end like: -eHP(assaults have higher eHP,logistics has lower) Sent Assault Logis Scout -speed (logistics has better speed,assaults have lower) Scout Logistics Assault Sent This would be balanced,speed for eHP. Instead of assaults getting everything and logistics getting the shaft (as it does currently). After all,'slayer' logis were only 'slayers' because their ability to tank high eHP,not because they were fast. And with the 160 extra eHP,combined with logistics (stolen) slots that has become impossible. pretty sure a heavy assault cruiser is faster generally than the logistics ships. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5116	Posted - 2014.11.19 19:15:00 - [1015] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Looking forward to it Here ya go :P https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_ytb13XWe3th0KUWFdNJD5NS_0Pqv5U8acUmhPxh6Ss/edit?usp=sharing Took me a few hours but this is the rough proposal I have for how equipment should be changed based on the feedback in this post and my own personal opinions. For the isk page I decided to standardize prices for equipment...again these are rough numbers not biased on how effective certain equipment are or what is used more. Part of me wanted to do this for FW items but I got about 30 minutes in and realized that until we have a standardized isk price for items it would be impossible to try and give each FW item a fair price. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1316	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:59:00 - [1016] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Looking forward to it Here ya go :P https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_ytb13XWe3th0KUWFdNJD5NS_0Pqv5U8acUmhPxh6Ss/edit?usp=sharing Took me a few hours but this is the rough proposal I have for how equipment should be changed based on the feedback in this post and my own personal opinions. For the isk page I decided to standardize prices for equipment...again these are rough numbers not biased on how effective certain equipment are or what is used more. Part of me wanted to do this for FW items but I got about 30 minutes in and realized that until we have a standardized isk price for items it would be impossible to try and give each FW item a fair price. I will admit triage hives seemed to have too many clusters... But having Pro level hive with less clusters than even a compact? Don't grenades take 12-24 clusters to refill? So,with this reduction i could refill 8 grenades,woo. And hybrids are bad enough as is,yet you want them to refill less? This seems like a good idea increasing carried amounts,but you're forgetting something. Logis are supposed to be equipment masters,and unless the equipment +carried is logistics exclusive imma say no. And logistics would required a class wide bonus to cluster amount to not completely destroy nanos effectiveness. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3963	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:55:00 - [1017] - Quote Quoting the work of John Demonsbane to provide more clarity on the subject of BW in case anyone is a bit foggy at this point. John Demonsbane wrote: It seems like people are a little confused about how the EQ bandwidth thing is supposed to work, so hereGÇÖs some examples to help make it more clear than RattatiGÇÖs spreadsheet (I do give him a +1 for the use of both GÇ£shenanigansGÇ¥ and GÇ£follyGÇ¥ in a spreadsheet). Personally I like the idea (a lot) so I want to make sure everyone understands its purpose and mechanics before they jump to any conclusions. Example 1: This is exactly what the BW mechanic is intended to stop. -Player starts match in scout suit or speedy min logi suit stacked with uplinks. Litters the map with them along a path leading to supply depot -Switches to another suit, drops a bunch of triage hives at a chokepoint, heads back to supply depot -Switches to HMG sentinel, camps said hives. -Profit. When he dies he respawns in the relatively cheaper sentinel suit while the expensive equipment is used cost-free Example 2: The way I, as a proper Amarr logi specializing in tactical logistics, starts basically every battle: -Spawn in with scout suit with 2 uplinks (the Amarr logi suit is not really any faster than a Min sentinel once you put some armor on it). Place uplinks judiciously, in well-chosen locations (click signature for details) -Switch to Amarr logi suit. Drop a couple more if itGÇÖs a large 5 point map. Do logi stuff with rep tool or nanohives or whatever -Replace uplinks when needed -No profit as my suit is expensive and the d-bag above stole all my WP by dropping his uplinks right on top of mine after spawning on them. GG, dude. -Insert bandwidth here- Example 1a: Same Scout/Sentinel 514 youGÇÖve grown to love, but now with BW! -Player starts match with ADV min logi suit (BW=6 EQ worth) -Craps out 5 uplinks on the way to supply depot in numerical order, #1 under the MCC, #2 in the middle of the road, #3 kinda near the city entrance, etc. -Switches to another ADV min logi suit, drops 3 more (#6,7,8). -Ooops! Exceeded BW of 6 EQ. (5+3 >6). Uplinks #1 and #2 pop. -Returns to supply depot, switches to cloaked shotty scout to display l33t skillz while farming uplink WP -Uh oh. Scout BW = 3 EQ. Uplinks 3-5 pop. Sad face. -Complain on forums Example 2a:You can still be a logi -Spawn in with scout suit (BW = 3 EQ) for initial run, drop 3 uplinks, need to be even more judicious since itGÇÖs only 3 -Switch to Amarr logi suit (BW=8GÇª yay!), drop the remaining uplinks, letGÇÖs call it 5 total. -Do logi stuff. Still have room for 3 REGÇÖs to set a trap or to drop a full complement of proto hives. -Profit. Less equipment is being spammed. No one else is stealing my WP -Rep tool, injector, scanners not affected. I can switch to a medic suit with those 3 things and my EQ stays exactly where it is! Hope this cleared up any confusion. I can always put up a couple other scenarios/examples if desired. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 1000	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:34:00 - [1018] - Quote It is really refreshing to see some of these ideas discussed in this thread coming to life. Long Live Logistics!!! Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5123	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:38:00 - [1019] - Quote Meee One wrote: I will admit triage hives seemed to have too many clusters... But having Pro level hive with less clusters than even a compact? Don't grenades take 12-24 clusters to refill? So,with this reduction i could refill 8 grenades,woo. And hybrids are bad enough as is,yet you want them to refill less? This seems like a good idea increasing carried amounts,but you're forgetting something. Logis are supposed to be equipment masters,and unless the equipment +carried is logistics exclusive imma say no. And logistics would require a class wide bonus to cluster amount to not completely destroy nanos effectiveness. Um The whole point here is to make it so that you can drop more equipment with less effectiveness per drop. This lets you use equipment more often while reducing the overall duration of equipment as to discourage spam. Equipment is still limited to 2 down at a time meaning that you can't just drop a hive (or 5) in an area and expect them to be there when you get back. The whole point is that you must constantly have this equipment on the suit for it to continue to be effective rather than dropping a ** ton of uplinks with 20 spawns on them each that will last forever. In combination with the new bandwidth proposal, it will be IMPOSSIBLE for people to spam equipment while still allowing dedicated logistics players to use tons of equipment. If that's not an insane amount of WIN-WIN to you then you have to be crazy or maybe you don't understand this proposal. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!**
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 693	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:44:00 - [1020] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Meee One wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Cat Merc wrote: So with this idea in place, could you please increase STD and ADV logistics to their full PRO equipment count? There would still be a reason to skill up to PRO, but STD and ADV logis wouldn't be so limited in their equipment choice. Interested in everyones take on this notion, balanced, OP, a step for suit progression but not enough on its own? Well,this seems ok in theory. But now we have a new factor,bandwith.(which is a great idea) As well as the cost of that extra equipment. 3 equipment slots with all ADV gear = ADV light weapon in costs. 4 equipment slots with all ADV gear = more than an ADV light weapon And as most logis know,ADV equipment is crap once Pro is available. And on my ADV fit i have 3 Pro equipment,which is about 50% of its cost. So,while i would like 4 slots,with such low survivability it would only make logistics that much more of an ISK sink. Logistics needs the built in ability to walk/run fast and hide,not hunt other suits. I don't think I'd make that blanket statement. KIN injectors are pretty decent now that they give shields, and the BDR-8 rep tool is extremely cost-effective in terms of both ISK and CPU/PG, probably even more so with a Min logi. STD links on my Amarr logi are about the same as anyone else's PRO links. Also, this change would be much bigger for the Amarr/Cal, we only have 2 EQ slots at STD, it's hard to do anything with that. Finally, you could always leave the 4th EQ slot empty (heresy, I know) if you really had to, but with a buff to the fitting bonus I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to put something there, even if was just a compact nano. This is not a newer idea but it hasn't been brought up in this kind of "possible logi update" discussion in a while. I do think that each logi should start with at least 3 EQ slots. It is the draw of the role. 2, Cal and Amarr, is just the same as a scout, and can probably eve logi a bit better at that level with the logi in its current state, but the point is that 2 is not enough to be an effective logi character. And while 3 is nice to cover most bases (injector, Repper, Nano) it is not quite enough to be as effective as a full 4EQ logi is. That fourth slot open up alot of builds to unique situations for Uplinks, scanners, or demolitions while still retaining the ability to support the team. Classes upgrade with their role and benefits to that role. Each gains modules as it advances up the tiers in Highs and Lows, but none gain anything extra in EQ or LW, side arms, or Grenades. Just H/L module count and Fitting Ability with increased CPU/PG. While that may be an argument for why they should start out with the Pro level 4EQ that 4th EQ slot can be seen as a module at the pro level I think. That said, this could be a good addition for the class. The two battle logis, CAL and AMR, should start and end with 3 EQ - and give that CAL a side-arm. The two other Logi's, GAL and MIN, could start with 4. In addition to Tier Equalization, and the general CPM proposal to CCP for the logi adjustments, this could make it a really awesome class. But if the logi did start with 4EQ or 3EQ they may run into the situation that current scouts have when facing fitting a cloak at the starting levels - it just wont work. A beginning player may have the slots, but not the ability to fill them all... or maybe not, it would take some number crunching that I'm not in the mood for right now. But it would make sense. When I do run Amarr Logi I only run ADV - the two EQ slots are not enough to be a logi. And having the two battle logis always stay at 3 while their H/L increased with tier progression to their Assault cousins is sensible. 4EQ for GAL or MIN is a little much for me at the moment. But waiting until the Proto level just for that extra tier is also exasperating. Perhaps lowering the 4EQ to open up at ADV level may be more appropriate. So there will be a reason beyond just H/L module count to move up a tier.... I could go Either way. But I am quite certain that Tiers need Equalized and AMR and CAL need 3EQ starting out. TLDR: This idea has merit and should be placed hand in hand with Logi Tier Equalization. 3EQ STD/MLT level - certainly. 4EQ STD/MLT level - i'm on the fence. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS

Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1322	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:22:00 - [1021] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Meee One wrote: I will admit triage hives seemed to have too many clusters... But having Pro level hive with less clusters than even a compact? Don't grenades take 12-24 clusters to refill? So,with this reduction i could refill 8 grenades,woo. And hybrids are bad enough as is,yet you want them to refill less? This seems like a good idea increasing carried amounts,but you're forgetting something. Logis are supposed to be equipment masters,and unless the equipment +carried is logistics exclusive imma say no. And logistics would require a class wide bonus to cluster amount to not completely destroy nanos effectiveness. Um The whole point here is to make it so that you can drop more equipment with less effectiveness per drop. This lets you use equipment more often while reducing the overall duration of equipment as to discourage spam. You'll be able to drop ammo for your team in 6 different places instead of just 3, or place uplinks in 12 different places instead of 3. However, equipment is still limited to 2 down at a time meaning that you can't just drop a hive (or 5) in an area and expect them to be there when you get back. The whole point is that you must constantly have this equipment on the suit for it to continue to be effective rather than dropping a ** ton of uplinks with 20 spawns on them each that will last forever. In combination with the new bandwidth proposal, it will be IMPOSSIBLE for people to spam equipment while still allowing dedicated logistics players to use tons of equipment. If that's not an insane amount of WIN-WIN to you then you have to be crazy or maybe you don't understand this proposal. You seem to be intentionally ignoring my reasoning. Let me make it easier for you. I don't want assaults or scouts to be able to carry as much. It further relegates logistics into the corner by removing the need for external support,forcing logistics to stick with heavies. I want more clusters for logistics because there will always be the one asshat that stands right on top of your hive spamming grenades with the sole purpose of using them up. Logistics should be the masters of equipment,they earn the right by being so terribly gimped. Other classes should need logistics for something,why not have that something be their equipment? Any positive change to equipment should be given through logistics exclusive bonuses. Any negative change to equipment should be negated by logistics exclusive bonuses. One main problem with logistics survivability is that no one sees them as valuable. But if assaults and scouts could only carry 2 hives while logistics can carry 6-7,it would add value. And logistics would be seen as a long-term winning asset worth protection. I'll be away for a few days after i post this,but i'll never change my view. Logistics should benefit exclusively,and other classes should benefit through** logistics. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 516	Posted - 2014.11.20 21:22:00 - [1022] - Quote I'm behind on this thread, been sidetracked elsewhere trying to keep us from getting ****** and scouts from getting even more stealthbuffs. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4653	Posted - 2014.11.20 22:48:00 - [1023] - Quote Meee One wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: Meee One wrote: I will admit triage hives seemed to have too many clusters... But having Pro level hive with less clusters than even a compact? Don't grenades take 12-24 clusters to refill? So,with this reduction i could refill 8 grenades,woo. And hybrids are bad enough as is,yet you want them to refill less? This seems like a good idea increasing carried amounts,but you're forgetting something. Logis are supposed to be equipment masters,and unless the equipment +carried is logistics exclusive imma say no. And logistics would require a class wide bonus to cluster amount to not completely destroy nanos effectiveness. Um The whole point here is to make it so that you can drop more equipment with less effectiveness per drop. This lets you use equipment more often while reducing the overall duration of equipment as to discourage spam. You'll be able to drop ammo for your team in 6 different places instead of just 3, or place uplinks in 12 different places instead of 3. However, equipment is still limited to 2 down at a time meaning that you can't just drop a hive (or 5) in an area and expect them to be there when you get back. The whole point is that you must constantly have this equipment on the suit for it to continue to be effective rather than dropping a ** ton of uplinks with 20 spawns on them each that will last forever. In combination with the new bandwidth proposal, it will be IMPOSSIBLE for people to spam equipment while still allowing dedicated logistics players to use tons of equipment. If that's not an insane amount of WIN-WIN to you then you have to be crazy or maybe you don't understand this proposal. (1) Any positive change to equipment should be given through logistics exclusive bonuses. Any negative change to equipment should be negated by logistics exclusive bonuses. (2) One main problem with logistics survivability is that no one sees them as valuable. But if assaults and scouts could only carry 2 hives while logistics can carry 6-7,it would add value. And logistics would be seen as a long-term winning asset worth protection. -snip- I'll be away for a few days after i post this,but i'll never change my view. Logistics should benefit exclusively,and other classes should benefit through** logistics. @Meee 1) Do you not see that the BW thing is a logistics bonus? Its just tied to the suit, not he skill, which may not be the better option but it's still logi-exclusive: +50% more EQ per tier. 2) ADV scouts, with the BW proposal, will only be able to deploy 2 hives. Proto can use 3. So.... not sure what you are getting at there. @Shayz: I'm still not really coming around to the uplinks with only 5 spawns but you can carry a crapton of them thing. Instead of 5 spawns and carry 8, why not 10 spawns and you carry 4? Obviously the quantum uplinks with 25 spawns or whatever never get used, but why not a middle ground? I think it's even less helpful with the BW mechanic. Placing fallback positions will be a major pain if I can only put out like 4 uplinks with 5 spawns each at a time. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 697	Posted - 2014.11.20 22:52:00 - [1024] - Quote As and additional note to my previous post, Scouts start with 2 EQ, their max. A logi should start with at least 1 more because theirs is the equipment role. As a sidenote, Cross. I know that you have been quite busy here and IRL. A few pages back you had said that you were reviewing what I had posted and would get back to me with your thoughts, no rush, just looking forward to it. Be well. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 519	Posted - 2014.11.20 23:04:00 - [1025] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I think it's even less helpful with the BW mechanic. Placing fallback positions will be a major pain if I can only put out like 4 uplinks with 5 spawns each at a time. ANY tactical position creation, reinforcement, or use will be a major pain with tue BW mechanic, whether its a fallback, a forward, an advanced OR a flank. Positioning will be like checkers, one piece in one direction until opposed and defeated instead of like chess, multiple pieces with different board control capabilities acting in concert together to an ultimate end. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4654	Posted - 2014.11.20 23:22:00 - [1026] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I think it's even less helpful with the BW mechanic. Placing fallback positions will be a major pain if I can only put out like 4 uplinks with 5 spawns each at a time. ANY tactical position creation, reinforcement, or use will be a major pain with the BW mechanic, whether its a fallback, a forward, an advanced OR a flank. Positioning will be like checkers, one piece in one direction until opposed and defeated instead of like chess, multiple pieces with different board control capabilities acting in concert together to an ultimate end. I was talking about the "more available links with less spawns." Arguably makes it harder than BW to make a fallback spot. I'd have to drop 3 in the same location to make it viable. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 520	Posted - 2014.11.21 00:02:00 - [1027] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I think it's even less helpful with the BW mechanic. Placing fallback positions will be a major pain if I can only put out like 4 uplinks with 5 spawns each at a time. ANY tactical position creation, reinforcement, or use will be a major pain with the BW mechanic, whether its a fallback, a forward, an advanced OR a flank. Positioning will be like checkers, one piece in one direction until opposed and defeated instead of like chess, multiple pieces with different board control capabilities acting in concert together to an ultimate end. I was talking about the "more available links with less spawns." Arguably makes it harder than BW to make a fallback spot. I'd have to drop 3 in the same location to make it viable. Problem, "tactical godfather", is you're sounding like you want to create fallback positions while being pushed back so now you're concerned about spawn counts/speeds, whereas I'm concerned with creating fallback positions before ever having pushed forward in the first place so placement timing is my concern. Checkers vs. Chess. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4654	Posted - 2014.11.21 00:08:00 - [1028] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I think it's even less helpful with the BW mechanic. Placing fallback positions will be a major pain if I can only put out like 4 uplinks with 5 spawns each at a time. ANY tactical position creation, reinforcement, or use will be a major pain with the BW mechanic, whether its a fallback, a forward, an advanced OR a flank. Positioning will be like checkers, one piece in one direction until opposed and defeated instead of like chess, multiple pieces with different board control capabilities acting in concert together to an ultimate end. I was talking about the "more available links with less spawns." Arguably makes it harder than BW to make a fallback spot. I'd have to drop 3 in the same location to make it viable. Problem, "tactical godfather", is you're sounding like you want to create fallback positions while being pushed back so now you're concerned about spawn counts/speeds, whereas I'm concerned with creating fallback positions before ever having pushed forward in the first place so placement timing is my concern. Checkers vs. Chess. Not even what I'm saying; also unsure how you could infer that from the statement. Overall I am questioning your reading comprehension at this point. Not trolling but serious. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 136	Posted - 2014.11.21 00:20:00 - [1029] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: @Shayz: I'm still not really coming around to the uplinks with only 5 spawns but you can carry a crapton of them thing. Instead of 5 spawns and carry 8, why not 10 spawns and you carry 4? Obviously the quantum uplinks with 25 spawns or whatever never get used, but why not a middle ground? I think it's even less helpful with the BW mechanic. Placing fallback positions will be a major pain if I can only put out like 4 uplinks with 5 spawns each at a time. One thing to remember, however, is the interaction that the Amarr Logi skill bonuses have with links. So, at max skills, you'll go from 5 spawns/per link to 15 instead, a 300% increase. I actually pointed out how this could become potentially ridiculous here: myself wrote: Drop Uplink Analysis. So, Links. I think the biggest thing that jumps out at me is this: Why do we need sixty spawns worth of links? I mean, that's nearly four times as many players are on a team, and more than a third the total clone count of a Dom or Skimish match. It just seems ridiculously overkill. I mean, currently due to how link mechanics are structured, it sort of makes sense... but that has more to do with the fact that we're not carrying very many links in total. The expectation almost seems like a link is supposed to be destroyed or made irrelevant by changing battle conditions than to be completely expended. There's also the issue of how this change interacts with the Amarr Logi bonus. Currently, the referenced proto links have 20 spawns per link, with 3 carried. With the AmLogi bonus, this becomes 30 spawns per link, with 3 carried, for a total of 90 spawns. Using the proposed numbers of 5 spawns/link, 12 links carried... I arrive at a whopping one hundred eighty potential spawns. 180! That's more than ten times as many players per team, and is 20% more than the total clone count per team of any game mode! But even considering the potential ridiculosity, it does mean that, potentially, we could make Quantum-variant links a distinctive variation; fewer links carried, but more spawns per link- the net should actually be that the total spawns per fitted module favors the basic variant, while Quantum variant links have higher spawn count per link, with fewer carried. Expanding that to the Flux and Stable variants, Flux variants should have faster spawns per link, but fewer total links carried, while Stable links should have fewer total links carried and a slightly longer spawn delay than basic-variant links. To counterbalance the spawn time and total carried drawbacks of Stable-variant links, they should generally cost 60-75% the CPU/PG to fit compared to an equal-tiered link. As far as Gauged links, I'm honestly not sure what to do about those. Side note: Flux nanos need to be dropped like a flaming honey badger. They serve no useful purpose whatsoever. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4656	Posted - 2014.11.21 01:10:00 - [1030] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: @Shayz: I'm still not really coming around to the uplinks with only 5 spawns but you can carry a crapton of them thing. Instead of 5 spawns and carry 8, why not 10 spawns and you carry 4? Obviously the quantum uplinks with 25 spawns or whatever never get used, but why not a middle ground? I think it's even less helpful with the BW mechanic. Placing fallback positions will be a major pain if I can only put out like 4 uplinks with 5 spawns each at a time. One thing to remember, however, is the interaction that the Amarr Logi skill bonuses have with links. So, at max skills, you'll go from 5 spawns/per link to 15 instead, a 300% increase. I actually pointed out how this could become potentially ridiculous here: myself wrote: Drop Uplink Analysis. So, Links. I think the biggest thing that jumps out at me is this: Why do we need sixty spawns worth of links? I mean, that's nearly four times as many players are on a team, and more than a third the total clone count of a Dom or Skimish match. It just seems ridiculously overkill. I mean, currently due to how link mechanics are structured, it sort of makes sense... but that has more to do with the fact that we're not carrying very many links in total. The expectation almost seems like a link is supposed to be destroyed or made irrelevant by changing battle conditions than to be completely expended. There's also the issue of how this change interacts with the Amarr Logi bonus. Currently, the referenced proto links have 20 spawns per link, with 3 carried. With the AmLogi bonus, this becomes 30 spawns per link, with 3 carried, for a total of 90 spawns. Using the proposed numbers of 5 spawns/link, 12 links carried... I arrive at a whopping one hundred eighty potential spawns. 180! That's more than ten times as many players per team, and is 20% more than the total clone count per team of any game mode! But even considering the potential ridiculosity, it does mean that, potentially, we could make Quantum-variant links a distinctive variation; fewer links carried, but more spawns per link- the net should actually be that the total spawns per fitted module favors the basic variant, while Quantum variant links have higher spawn count per link, with fewer carried. Expanding that to the Flux and Stable variants, Flux variants should have faster spawns per link, but fewer total links carried, while Stable links should have fewer total links carried and a slightly longer spawn delay than basic-variant links. To counterbalance the spawn time and total carried drawbacks of Stable-variant links, they should generally cost 60-75% the CPU/PG to fit compared to an equal-tiered link. As far as Gauged links, I'm honestly not sure what to do about those. Side note: Flux nanos need to be dropped like a flaming honey badger. They serve no useful purpose whatsoever. That is pretty crazy. Quantums sticking around as the middle ground option between the current and what we have now sounds good. You could just get rid of gauged links, really, they wouldn't have much purpose with the proposed change. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 527	Posted - 2014.11.21 01:28:00 - [1031] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I think it's even less helpful with the BW mechanic. Placing fallback positions will be a major pain if I can only put out like 4 uplinks with 5 spawns each at a time. ANY tactical position creation, reinforcement, or use will be a major pain with the BW mechanic, whether its a fallback, a forward, an advanced OR a flank. Positioning will be like checkers, one piece in one direction until opposed and defeated instead of like chess, multiple pieces with different board control capabilities acting in concert together to an ultimate end. I was talking about the "more available links with less spawns." Arguably makes it harder than BW to make a fallback spot. I'd have to drop 3 in the same location to make it viable. Problem, "tactical godfather", is you're sounding like you want to create fallback positions while being pushed back so now you're concerned about spawn counts/speeds, whereas I'm concerned with creating fallback positions before ever having pushed forward in the first place so placement timing is my concern. Checkers vs. Chess. Not even what I'm saying; also unsure how you could infer that from the statement. Overall, considering the last 24-48 hrs of posts I am questioning your reading comprehension at this point. Not trolling but serious. So, be clearer then in your statements. Every Logistical style that actively supplies a group AND establishes preemptive positioning is hurt by BW limits. That you can't, don't or won't see that tells me you rarely if at all are acting in this manner tactically, which really only leaves you either A) Reacting Logistically on the battlefield, not Dictating Logistically or B) Are just another ammo humper leashed to a heavy both of which explain your problem understanding my problem with BW. Not trolling, but serious as my ability to more than read whatever gets posted in here. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 137	Posted - 2014.11.21 02:36:00 - [1032] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: That is pretty crazy. Quantums sticking around as the middle ground option between the current and what we have now sounds good. You could just get rid of gauged links, really, they wouldn't have much purpose with the proposed change. Yeah, Gauged links as of now are interesting and useful, given that you can carry more links and especially the more links deployed benefit... but they end up not being especially useful under the equipment rebalance proposal that is part of the 3rd iteration in the OP. I'd also like to further bring to attention the tiering imbalance of Stable links- they have a STD and PRO variant, but not an ADV model. I believe this should be fixed, as it doesn't make much sense. It's a little like the issue with Scanners- there's a Flux scanner at STD and PRO, but not at ADV, while Stable scanners only exist at ADV level- no PRO variant to speak of. It'd also be nice if there was a STD variant, but I think that Stable scanners need more of a drawback than "it costs more ISK". Also, I'd like to comment on Shayz's equipment spreadsheet: I-Shayz-I wrote: Here ya go :P https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_ytb13XWe3th0KUWFdNJD5NS_0Pqv5U8acUmhPxh6Ss/edit?usp=sharing Took me a few hours but this is the rough proposal I have for how equipment should be changed based on the feedback in this post and my own personal opinions. For the isk page I decided to standardize prices for equipment...again these are rough numbers not biased on how effective certain equipment are or what is used more. Part of me wanted to do this for FW items but I got about 30 minutes in and realized that until we have a standardized isk price for items it would be impossible to try and give each FW item a fair price. I'll start with the ISK pricing changes, as that's where my main issue lies, I think. Simply put, I think a lot of the pricing is too high. For the most part, I would argue that a single equipment mod should have an ISK cost that is approximately 20-25% that of an equal-tier light weapon. Keep in mind that, depending on the particular light weapon, it's often very easy to fit both a PRO weapon and a full rack of PRO equipment- if each single PRO equipment mod is 25% the cost of a single PRO light weapon, for example, a Logi will still end up paying more for their suit than an assault of equal fitting/tier, even if that assault fits a PRO sidearm. The difference is that the price gap is significantly reduced. Compared to now, that's a quite substantial benefit, IMO. Now, admittedly the pricing is, as you said, merely a rough normalization... but I would humbly contend that the normalization that you have put forth is still a bit too pricy. It especially looks as if the net cost of an ADV-level logi rig is going to go up, and likely by a not-inconsiderable amount. As far as the equipment stat changes: Repair Tools As I've commented before, I do not use repair tools, so I will leave these to those more experienced (and interested) in the use of reppers. Drop Uplinks Honestly, I think that the PRO-variants are the only ones that look good. That said, I also think that there's just not enough stat differentiation. First off, the Abyss variant links are, quite frankly, fine in their current configuration- aside from the AUR-only aspect, that is. Can we get the Abyss variant changed to an ISK-purchased item? Secondly, Quantum links do not offer enough of an increased spawn-count per link to be compelling. I can confidently say that with the numbers you propose, I would never use Quantum links. Admittedly, I don't use Quantum links at present anyways- I find that the Amarr Logi bonus somewhat obsoletes the Quantum Uplink. Here, however, there's just not enough of a difference to make Quantum links compelling. Third, Flux links are still obsoleting basic links. The only disadvantage Flux links offer is the price hike. That's it. I'd also like to mention that Gauged links still come off as redundant, but that has more to do with Gauged links just being generally redundant anyway. Stable links are also seeming like they have no actual differentiation besides what could be expressed as "less filling"; Stable links pretty much offer the same conundrum as Stable scanners- they do almost everything better than the lower-tier variants, only requiring an ISK hike. Nanohives Generally, these look good. I think my favorite part is the alteration of Flux nanos (which are useless) into a PRO-level Quantum variant. With that said... I still question the usefulness of a Quantum-variant nanohive, even with your proposed change of "same resupply rate, MOAR clusters". That said, the proposed alteration of Quantum-variants going from "faster resupply" to "moar clusters" is potentially interesting- I would wager that dedicated Caldari Logis would probably like it best, as it then kicks their bonus into being more effective (due to more base clusters) for establishing an entrenched defensive position. Also, what are your thoughts on an ADV-level Triage nano? Scanners Generally, I like. About the only issues I see are that Focused scanners still seem like they have a lack of usefulness even given their precision advantage- but that has more to do with the tremendously long cooldown. I would recommend dialing it back to 35 seconds- just 5 less than the current. I'd also like to mention that Stable scanners need a legitimate drawback other than "higher ISK price". Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 01:26:00 - [1033] - Quote Ah-CHOOO!!! Damn, I'm allergic to this thread getting buried while Rattati has 5 different feedbacks open all on topics integral to the discussion in here... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4667	Posted - 2014.11.22 01:54:00 - [1034] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Problem, "tactical godfather", is you're sounding like you want to create fallback positions while being pushed back so now you're concerned about spawn counts/speeds, whereas I'm concerned with creating fallback positions before ever having pushed forward in the first place so placement timing is my concern. Checkers vs. Chess. Not even what I'm saying; also unsure how you could infer that from the statement. Overall, considering the last 24-48 hrs of posts I am questioning your reading comprehension at this point. Not trolling but serious. So, be clearer then in your statements. Every Logistical style that actively supplies a group AND establishes preemptive positioning is hurt by BW limits. That you can't, don't or won't see that tells me you rarely if at all are acting in this manner tactically, which really only leaves you either A) Reacting Logistically on the battlefield, not Dictating Logistically or B) Are just another ammo humper leashed to a heavy both of which explain your problem understanding my problem with BW. Not trolling, but serious as my ability to more than read whatever gets posted in here. To quote Dr. Watson, no sht, Sherlock! It nerfs everyone else 10x as hard. I can live with that. I'd love to go back to the days when most of the EQ was placed by logis and we were rightfully rewarded. When no duchebags would spawn in on my hard-to reach uplink and crap two of theirs on top of it to steal my WP. Hell, if I could even tell which uplinks were mine in the sea of blue it would be an improvement. Your problem is that you can't look past "I can't do as much" and see how the end result actually benefits us. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 02:21:00 - [1035] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Problem, "tactical godfather", is you're sounding like you want to create fallback positions while being pushed back so now you're concerned about spawn counts/speeds, whereas I'm concerned with creating fallback positions before ever having pushed forward in the first place so placement timing is my concern. Checkers vs. Chess. Not even what I'm saying; also unsure how you could infer that from the statement. Overall, considering the last 24-48 hrs of posts I am questioning your reading comprehension at this point. Not trolling but serious. So, be clearer then in your statements. Every Logistical style that actively supplies a group AND establishes preemptive positioning is hurt by BW limits. That you can't, don't or won't see that tells me you rarely if at all are acting in this manner tactically, which really only leaves you either A) Reacting Logistically on the battlefield, not Dictating Logistically or B) Are just another ammo humper leashed to a heavy both of which explain your problem understanding my problem with BW. Not trolling, but serious as my ability to more than read whatever gets posted in here. To quote Dr. Watson, no sht, Sherlock! It nerfs everyone else 10x as hard. I can live with that. I'd love to go back to the days when most of the EQ was placed by logis and we were rightfully rewarded. When no duchebags would spawn in on my hard-to reach uplink and crap two of theirs on top of it to steal my WP. Hell, if I could even tell which uplinks were mine in the sea of blue it would be an improvement. Your problem is that you can't look past "I can't do as much" and see how the end result actually benefits us. No, my problem is I won't quietly accept a nerf even if it means nerfing everybody else too "10x as hard". I don't see the end result benefitting when it includes blanket nerfs for all when other options could address the issue, and keep its effects limited to just the issue, without nerfing other worthwhile elements. " Bird in the hand for nothing in the bush". Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 02:26:00 - [1036] - Quote And if your response to my response is " No **** Sherlock" then what I'm saying is obvious and patently true. Which reinforces and validates my statement that your idea of "Logistics" is Reactive and centered more or less solely on blobbing with leashed heavies. To which I respond, "Your style is Elementary, my dear Watson. Elementary. " Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4668	Posted - 2014.11.22 03:17:00 - [1037] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: And if your response to my response is " No **** Sherlock" then what I'm saying is obvious and patently true. Which reinforces and validates my statement that your idea of "Logistics" is Reactive and centered more or less solely on blobbing with leashed heavies. To which I respond, "Your style is Elementary, my dear Watson. Elementary. " If you say so. vOv Moving on. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 03:44:00 - [1038] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: And if your response to my response is " No **** Sherlock" then what I'm saying is obvious and patently true. Which reinforces and validates my statement that your idea of "Logistics" is Reactive and centered more or less solely on blobbing with leashed heavies. To which I respond, "Your style is Elementary, my dear Watson. Elementary. " If you say so. vOv Moving on. lol, actually, YOU said so. Don't get it twisted. ..V, Moving on... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1326	Posted - 2014.11.23 20:23:00 - [1039] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Meee One wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: Meee One wrote: I will admit triage hives seemed to have too many clusters... But having Pro level hive with less clusters than even a compact? Don't grenades take 12-24 clusters to refill? So,with this reduction i could refill 8 grenades,woo. And hybrids are bad enough as is,yet you want them to refill less? This seems like a good idea increasing carried amounts,but you're forgetting something. Logis are supposed to be equipment masters,and unless the equipment +carried is logistics exclusive imma say no. And logistics would require a class wide bonus to cluster amount to not completely destroy nanos effectiveness. Um The whole point here is to make it so that you can drop more equipment with less effectiveness per drop. This lets you use equipment more often while reducing the overall duration of equipment as to discourage spam. You'll be able to drop ammo for your team in 6 different places instead of just 3, or place uplinks in 12 different places instead of 3. However, equipment is still limited to 2 down at a time meaning that you can't just drop a hive (or 5) in an area and expect them to be there when you get back. The whole point is that you must constantly have this equipment on the suit for it to continue to be effective rather than dropping a ** ton of uplinks with 20 spawns on them each that will last forever. In combination with the new bandwidth proposal, it will be IMPOSSIBLE for people to spam equipment while still allowing dedicated logistics players to use tons of equipment. If that's not an insane amount of WIN-WIN to you then you have to be crazy or maybe you don't understand this proposal. (1) Any positive change to equipment should be given through logistics exclusive bonuses. Any negative change to equipment should be negated by logistics exclusive bonuses. (2) One main problem with logistics survivability is that no one sees them as valuable. But if assaults and scouts could only carry 2 hives while logistics can carry 6-7,it would add value. And logistics would be seen as a long-term winning asset worth protection. -snip- I'll be away for a few days after i post this,but i'll never change my view. Logistics should benefit exclusively,and other classes should benefit through** logistics. @Meee 1) Do you not see that the BW thing is a logistics bonus? Its just tied to the suit, not the skill, which may not be the better option but it's still logi-exclusive: +50-100% more EQ per tier (depending on the comparison suit) 2) ADV scouts, with the BW proposal, will only be able to deploy 2 hives. Proto can use 3. So.... not sure what you are getting at there. @Shayz: I'm still not really coming around to the uplinks with only 5 spawns but you can carry a crapton of them thing. Instead of 5 spawns and carry 8, why not 10 spawns and you carry 4? Obviously the quantum uplinks with 25 spawns or whatever never get used, but why not a middle ground? I think it's even less helpful with the BW mechanic. Placing fallback positions will be a major pain if I can only put out like 4 uplinks with 5 spawns each at a time. 1) I was talking about the equipment changes (increased carry amount) applying to all suits. Why run a Cal logi (with even less effective bonuses because of this change after all,less clusters = lower bonus given) and die easier,when you can sacrifice a few eq slots and live longer as an assault? Have you read the BW thread? Players are willing to have only a single uplink as a sent,simply because they'll live longer. The last thing we need is for assaults to compete with logistics in equipment,seeing as CCP favors them,logistics would lose. 2)Another inherent flaw with Dust as a whole is the thought process that 'logistics should need a squad',yet assaults,scouts and even heavies were buffed to levels where they don't. This made logistics an unnecessary burden to it's squad mates. Logis need an 'escort' to be effective while assaults don't. This effectively reduces the whole teams fighting potential by 1 for every logi,totaling 2 counting the logi themselves. Consider that,each logistics because 'it has to have a squad' costs their team 2 fighters (themselves and their escort,if you can find one). Plus,equipment was nerfed. Other suits can use equipment to the same effect as 2/3rds of all logistics (seeing as logistics don't have bonuses to all equipment). And you have a pretty deadweight suit. If carried amounts is increased across the board instead of being logistics exclusive,it becomes yet another reason not to use logistics. Other classes are too autonomous,and this would be another way for them to stay that way. Logistics can stop being a burden however,just make them masters of equipment (like they are supposed to be anyway),since suit buffs will always be subpar to what it actually needs. Tl;dr Any + carried should be logistics exclusive. It's what they're designed for. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4692	Posted - 2014.11.24 01:15:00 - [1040] - Quote That's all fine and good, and yes I did read the entire BW thread. Remember that it's not meant to be done in isolation, it should be part of a larger logistics revamp as we've been discussing all along. Doing one without the others certainly does not leave us in a markedly better position than currently, but all of them together just as certainly would. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1276	Posted - 2014.11.24 01:31:00 - [1041] - Quote Meee One wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Meee One wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: Meee One wrote: I will admit triage hives seemed to have too many clusters... But having Pro level hive with less clusters than even a compact? Don't grenades take 12-24 clusters to refill? So,with this reduction i could refill 8 grenades,woo. And hybrids are bad enough as is,yet you want them to refill less? This seems like a good idea increasing carried amounts,but you're forgetting something. Logis are supposed to be equipment masters,and unless the equipment +carried is logistics exclusive imma say no. And logistics would require a class wide bonus to cluster amount to not completely destroy nanos effectiveness. Um The whole point here is to make it so that you can drop more equipment with less effectiveness per drop. This lets you use equipment more often while reducing the overall duration of equipment as to discourage spam. You'll be able to drop ammo for your team in 6 different places instead of just 3, or place uplinks in 12 different places instead of 3. However, equipment is still limited to 2 down at a time meaning that you can't just drop a hive (or 5) in an area and expect them to be there when you get back. The whole point is that you must constantly have this equipment on the suit for it to continue to be effective rather than dropping a ** ton of uplinks with 20 spawns on them each that will last forever. In combination with the new bandwidth proposal, it will be IMPOSSIBLE for people to spam equipment while still allowing dedicated logistics players to use tons of equipment. If that's not an insane amount of WIN-WIN to you then you have to be crazy or maybe you don't understand this proposal. (1) Any positive change to equipment should be given through logistics exclusive bonuses. Any negative change to equipment should be negated by logistics exclusive bonuses. (2) One main problem with logistics survivability is that no one sees them as valuable. But if assaults and scouts could only carry 2 hives while logistics can carry 6-7,it would add value. And logistics would be seen as a long-term winning asset worth protection. -snip- I'll be away for a few days after i post this,but i'll never change my view. Logistics should benefit exclusively,and other classes should benefit through** logistics. @Meee 1) Do you not see that the BW thing is a logistics bonus? Its just tied to the suit, not the skill, which may not be the better option but it's still logi-exclusive: +50-100% more EQ per tier (depending on the comparison suit) 2) ADV scouts, with the BW proposal, will only be able to deploy 2 hives. Proto can use 3. So.... not sure what you are getting at there. @Shayz: I'm still not really coming around to the uplinks with only 5 spawns but you can carry a crapton of them thing. Instead of 5 spawns and carry 8, why not 10 spawns and you carry 4? Obviously the quantum uplinks with 25 spawns or whatever never get used, but why not a middle ground? I think it's even less helpful with the BW mechanic. Placing fallback positions will be a major pain if I can only put out like 4 uplinks with 5 spawns each at a time. 1) I was talking about the equipment changes (increased carry amount) applying to all suits. Why run a Cal logi (with even less effective bonuses because of this change after all,less clusters = lower bonus given) and die easier,when you can sacrifice a few eq slots and live longer as an assault? Have you read the BW thread? Players are willing to have only a single uplink as a sent,simply because they'll live longer. The last thing we need is for assaults to compete with logistics in equipment,seeing as CCP favors them,logistics would lose. 2)Another inherent flaw with Dust as a whole is the thought process that 'logistics should need a squad',yet assaults,scouts and even heavies were buffed to levels where they don't. This made logistics an unnecessary burden to it's squad mates. Logis need an 'escort' to be effective while assaults don't. This effectively reduces the whole teams fighting potential by 1 for every logi,totaling 2 counting the logi themselves. Consider that,each logistics because 'it has to have a squad' costs their team 2 fighters (themselves and their escort,if you can find one). Plus,equipment was nerfed. Other suits can use equipment to the same effect as 2/3rds of all logistics (seeing as logistics don't have bonuses to all equipment). And you have a pretty deadweight suit. If carried amounts is increased across the board instead of being logistics exclusive,it becomes yet another reason not to use logistics. Other classes are too autonomous,and this would be another way for them to stay that way. Logistics can stop being a burden however,just make them masters of equipment (like they are supposed to be anyway),since suit buffs will always be subpar to what it actually needs. Tl;dr Any + carried should be logistics exclusive. It's what they're designed for. do you play eve? logis are not combat ships. they are support ships. remote armor repairers are highslot items. so the rep tool in eve would be a highslot item. and you sacrifice weapons to fit healers. logi ships only have half of their highslots available for weapons. and no one fits them with guns anyway cause theyre useless offensively. your job is not to fight or be self sufficient. your job is to keep the fighting units alive as a part of a group. logis should need an escort and they arent meant to be autonomous. if they were meant to be autonomous they wouldnt be built around giving other suits aid. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5267	Posted - 2014.11.24 05:23:00 - [1042] - Quote Logis in EVE don't work like logis in DUST at all. They have a similar function, but that isn't the same as being the same thing. Use the concepts for comparison but trying to make dropsuits work like ships is kinda like trying to make a devout, peace-loving pacifist with anxiety issues into a United States or Royal Marine. Probably not going to work well. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1329	Posted - 2014.11.24 09:51:00 - [1043] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Logis in EVE don't work like logis in DUST at all. They have a similar function, but that isn't the same as being the same thing. Use the concepts for comparison but trying to make dropsuits work like ships is kinda like trying to make a devout, peace-loving pacifist with anxiety issues into a United States or Royal Marine. Probably not going to work well. Judging by the responses to my defense oriented logistics variation suggestion,i'd have to agree. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 17	Posted - 2014.11.28 18:12:00 - [1044] - Quote Rescuing thread from 5th page Dust 5/14
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1346	Posted - 2014.11.28 21:43:00 - [1045] - Quote Z3dog wrote: Rescuing thread from 5th page You'd think with the new BW idea players would take interest ITT. But i guess they're all too busy trying to get (insert suit here) buffed to use equipment instead. Oh the hillarity. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 21	Posted - 2014.11.29 01:45:00 - [1046] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=182530&find=unread scout doublethink Just replace the letters RE with the word uplinks in several of the posts. Dust 5/14
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1350	Posted - 2014.11.29 20:48:00 - [1047] - Quote Just going to add on about rep tools cooldown. I hope the class wide cooldown is significant,because if it isn't,you'll see a resurgence of killer bees. Not because they want to be killers,but because they now have so much more free time. -scans on 30 second cooldown -out of deployables -no one calling for rez -use rep tool? (nope,it's on cooldown) What does this leave logistics users? Their weapon. And as such,logistics users will be forced to change fittings to accommodate this new meta. Knowing there will be times they can't support,they will upgrade their weapon. Which is why the cooldown decrease must be significant. Unless,of course,CCP likes/liked logi slayers and wants to bring them back. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5201	Posted - 2014.11.29 22:21:00 - [1048] - Quote I always use my weapon when possible...doesn't make me an effective slayer at all in my logi suit though. I don't agree with rep tool cooldowns though...Is rather just reduce triage wp rewards. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1355	Posted - 2014.12.02 23:12:00 - [1049] - Quote So,now that colors can be changed. Can we assume shield rep tools are coming? With blue beams instead of yellow. And maybe hybrids? With 1 blue and 1 gold beam.(seeing as each beam has 1 straight beam and 1 that moves around). This would let everyone know what kind of reps the logistics has. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 572	Posted - 2014.12.02 23:33:00 - [1050] - Quote Meee One wrote: Just going to add on about rep tools cooldown. I hope the class wide cooldown is significant,because if it isn't,you'll see a resurgence of killer bees. Not because they want to be killers,but because they now have so much more free time. -scans on 30 second cooldown -out of deployables -no one calling for rez -use rep tool? (nope,it's on cooldown) What does this leave logistics users? Their weapon. And as such,logistics users will be forced to change fittings to accommodate this new meta. Knowing there will be times they can't support,they will upgrade their weapon. Which is why the cooldown decrease must be significant. Unless,of course,CCP likes/liked logi slayers and wants to bring them back. Oh, dude. The slayers are coming back. BW has guaranteed it. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 572	Posted - 2014.12.02 23:51:00 - [1051] - Quote New Idea: Increase player counts in match to 300 vs 300 so Logistics can be made into the roving supply depots people want just like EVE. Then, 10 people guarding the Logi from all angles at all times can actually happen. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1355	Posted - 2014.12.03 02:24:00 - [1052] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: Just going to add on about rep tools cooldown. I hope the class wide cooldown is significant,because if it isn't,you'll see a resurgence of killer bees. Not because they want to be killers,but because they now have so much more free time. -scans on 30 second cooldown -out of deployables -no one calling for rez -use rep tool? (nope,it's on cooldown) What does this leave logistics users? Their weapon. And as such,logistics users will be forced to change fittings to accommodate this new meta. Knowing there will be times they can't support,they will upgrade their weapon. Which is why the cooldown decrease must be significant. Unless,of course,CCP likes/liked logi slayers and wants to bring them back. Oh, dude. The slayers are coming back. BW has guaranteed it. Something tells me the exact opposite is going to happen. You'll see a mass die off of logistics,everyone moving to assaults (for the equipment). And true-blue logibros will become a rare sight.(except in PCs of course,dat rep tool) Players will try logistics go "lol too hard",then run right back to the sents,scouts and assaults they came from. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 28	Posted - 2014.12.03 03:35:00 - [1053] - Quote Hmmm. Rattati locked the equipment bandwidth sticky, but not before raising scout bandwidth and reducing RE bandwidth. Dust 5/14
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 28	Posted - 2014.12.03 04:13:00 - [1054] - Quote Also could we brainstorm some ideas for logis to be able to defend their equipment? For example: Some sort of short range rep tool that makes the equipment around a logi immune to damage. Only effective while the logistics suit is alive and within very close proximity to equipment. Dust 5/14
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5607	Posted - 2014.12.03 10:47:00 - [1055] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: Just going to add on about rep tools cooldown. I hope the class wide cooldown is significant,because if it isn't,you'll see a resurgence of killer bees. Not because they want to be killers,but because they now have so much more free time. -scans on 30 second cooldown -out of deployables -no one calling for rez -use rep tool? (nope,it's on cooldown) What does this leave logistics users? Their weapon. And as such,logistics users will be forced to change fittings to accommodate this new meta. Knowing there will be times they can't support,they will upgrade their weapon. Which is why the cooldown decrease must be significant. Unless,of course,CCP likes/liked logi slayers and wants to bring them back. Oh, dude. The slayers are coming back. BW has guaranteed it. Correct. They're called Assaults. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 369	Posted - 2014.12.03 11:29:00 - [1056] - Quote Well adaptation to changes is part of this game. So I made some suits to compensate the EQ BW. Mostly I reduced the amount of Uplinks on my first spawn to 4 deployed. Than I can spawn a commando without loosing too much (if Apex, all good). If I want to stay logi, I just spawn a tanked version of the first spawn, that has just a scanner (pro), a pathetic hive (compact) and a dirty needle. There you go, better survivability and still getting points from those links... Support though... well not so much. Cheers Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1363	Posted - 2014.12.04 07:16:00 - [1057] - Quote Z3dog wrote: Hmmm. Rattati locked the equipment bandwidth sticky, but not before raising scout bandwidth and reducing RE bandwidth. And increasing triage hive BW. 8 per? Max deployed is 2,Pro logistics has 32 BW. So it costs 1/2 a Pro logistics BW for 2 hives. Yet you can spam 4 uplinks for the same cost? At least the other hives are BW cheap. But why increase BW on the wyrk hive at all? It doesn't have a basic or ADV version like the hybrids do. And you can only have 2 out anyway. It would only make sense if CCP were going to add basic and ADV triage hives. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1363	Posted - 2014.12.04 07:22:00 - [1058] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Well adaptation to changes is part of this game. So I made some suits to compensate the EQ BW. Mostly I reduced the amount of Uplinks on my first spawn to 4 deployed. Than I can spawn a commando without loosing too much (if Apex, all good). If I want to stay logi, I just spawn a tanked version of the first spawn, that has just a scanner (pro), a pathetic hive (compact) and a dirty needle. There you go, better survivability and still getting points from those links... Support though... well not so much. Cheers 4 links = 16 BW ADV logistics has 24. Cal and Amarr logistics has 28. You can still use 2 deployables (most hives). Scanners,rep tools and needles aren't effected. Quit being a drama queen. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 898	Posted - 2014.12.04 09:31:00 - [1059] - Quote Meee One wrote: Z3dog wrote: Hmmm. Rattati locked the equipment bandwidth sticky, but not before raising scout bandwidth and reducing RE bandwidth. And increasing triage hive BW. 8 per? Max deployed is 2,Pro logistics has 32 BW. So it costs 1/2 a Pro logistics BW for 2 hives. Yet you can spam 4 uplinks for the same cost? Holy **** I missed that last second switcheroo Would be nice to hear what the "logic" behind that change is... Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4817	Posted - 2014.12.04 12:19:00 - [1060] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Meee One wrote: Z3dog wrote: Hmmm. Rattati locked the equipment bandwidth sticky, but not before raising scout bandwidth and reducing RE bandwidth. And increasing triage hive BW. 8 per? Max deployed is 2,Pro logistics has 32 BW. So it costs 1/2 a Pro logistics BW for 2 hives. Yet you can spam 4 uplinks for the same cost? Holy **** I missed that last second switcheroo Would be nice to hear what the "logic" behind that change is... The RE thing was to make the scouts happy for the most part. I can live with it since REs (and particularly proxies) are not as useful "pound for pound" as uplinks. Triage hives are a bit of a head scratcher, tho. I guess its since that is what they are worried about assaults/commandos spamming before they depot swap. If that's true, not sure why you would not do it to just wiyrkomi's and leave the K/D's alone. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 3312	Posted - 2014.12.04 12:51:00 - [1061] - Quote Since this seems to be the new place to talk about the equipment bandwidth. I would suggest increasing the uplink bandwidth to either 8 or 12 (I think 12 is better personally), and then removing the amarr logi bonus towards uplinks and changing it to something more useful. Uplinks, much like jump drive force projection was in eve, are terrible for the game but they have been around for so long that nobody knows any other way. Death to all uplinks!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5628	Posted - 2014.12.04 13:05:00 - [1062] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Well adaptation to changes is part of this game. So I made some suits to compensate the EQ BW. Mostly I reduced the amount of Uplinks on my first spawn to 4 deployed. Than I can spawn a commando without loosing too much (if Apex, all good). If I want to stay logi, I just spawn a tanked version of the first spawn, that has just a scanner (pro), a pathetic hive (compact) and a dirty needle. There you go, better survivability and still getting points from those links... Support though... well not so much. Cheers Prevention of death is in all ways superior to assisting a respawns. Take the change from that view and the logic on the BW value of hives vs. Uplinks makes more sense. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 606	Posted - 2014.12.04 20:30:00 - [1063] - Quote Z3dog wrote: Also could we brainstorm some ideas for logis to be able to defend their equipment? For example: Some sort of short range rep tool that makes the equipment around a logi immune to damage. Only effective while the logistics suit is alive and within very close proximity to equipment. I'm down for combat shields. And not a silly bubble generator either, I mean a non-movement interfering, full coverage physical shield that can also be used to melee. We could basically squat and hold against incoming fire, protecting links or rep hives as well as use it to cross open ground to get to a revive as well as use it to cover people coming to our positions for ammo/reps. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 606	Posted - 2014.12.04 20:36:00 - [1064] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Since this seems to be the new place to talk about the equipment bandwidth. I would suggest increasing the uplink bandwidth to either 8 or 12 (I think 12 is better personally), and then removing the amarr logi bonus towards uplinks and changing it to something more useful. Uplinks, much like jump drive force projection was in eve, are terrible for the game but they have been around for so long that nobody knows any other way. Death to all uplinks! No, this isn't really that place. Your opinion is noted however and you are invited to stay and join what we have been mostly discussing, Support play and Logistics. I'd recommend at least skimming the previous pages (and bear in mind the dates). Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 606	Posted - 2014.12.04 20:40:00 - [1065] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Prevention of death is in all ways superior to assisting a respawns. Best justification for returning sidearms to Logis I've heard all day. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1364	Posted - 2014.12.04 22:46:00 - [1066] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Prevention of death is in all ways superior to assisting a respawns. Best justification for returning sidearms to Logis I've heard all day. >prevention of death. Sidearms don't prevent death,they cause it to your enemies. Prevention of death would be something like damage resistance. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 606	Posted - 2014.12.04 23:39:00 - [1067] - Quote Meee One wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Prevention of death is in all ways superior to assisting a respawns. Best justification for returning sidearms to Logis I've heard all day. >prevention of death. Sidearms don't prevent death,they cause it to your enemies. Prevention of death would be something like damage resistance. Causing my teammates' enemies' death prevents those enemies from causing my teammates' death. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 36	Posted - 2014.12.05 01:12:00 - [1068] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Meee One wrote: Z3dog wrote: Hmmm. Rattati locked the equipment bandwidth sticky, but not before raising scout bandwidth and reducing RE bandwidth. And increasing triage hive BW. 8 per? Max deployed is 2,Pro logistics has 32 BW. So it costs 1/2 a Pro logistics BW for 2 hives. Yet you can spam 4 uplinks for the same cost? Holy **** I missed that last second switcheroo Would be nice to hear what the "logic" behind that change is... "Data" Dust 5/14
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 86	Posted - 2014.12.05 17:26:00 - [1069] - Quote Now that they have a way to change colors can we please change the logi color scheme and loose the bright yellow? If the enemy needs to know who the logi is let him look for the repair tool streams. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 6332	Posted - 2014.12.05 17:34:00 - [1070] - Quote MECHANIC POINTS FOR REPAIRING INSTALLATIONS, CRUS, SUPPLY DEPOTS, TURRETS AND VEHICLES. RENAME THE TRIAGE MECHANIC AS.........MECHANIC. PUT A CAP ON IT SO IT CANT BE FARMED. I am GJRs Renfield.

Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1296	Posted - 2014.12.05 23:51:00 - [1071] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Now that they have a way to change colors can we please change the logi color scheme and loose the bright yellow? If the enemy needs to know who the logi is let him look for the repair tool streams. i agree i hate the coloring. most of the suits need to be revisited anyway. the color progressions across standards/assaults makes no sense either. logi are ugly so they should get a new paintjob across the board too that darkens and looks more ba as it goes from basic to proto. meaning advanced skins that fall between both proto and basic. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Mordecai Snake Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 74	Posted - 2014.12.06 00:11:00 - [1072] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Now that they have a way to change colors can we please change the logi color scheme and loose the bright yellow? If the enemy needs to know who the logi is let him look for the repair tool streams. We need new Caldari/Gallente/Amarr Logis, a new minmatar assault, and new commandos so that role colors can be done away with.
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 38	Posted - 2014.12.06 05:35:00 - [1073] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: MECHANIC POINTS FOR REPAIRING INSTALLATIONS, CRUS, SUPPLY DEPOTS, TURRETS AND VEHICLES. RENAME THE TRIAGE MECHANIC AS.........MECHANIC. PUT A CAP ON IT SO IT CANT BE FARMED. No caps just low amounts of wp. Would like to see caps removed for other stuff too and reduce wps. Shouldn't be punished for doing my job too well in a short period of time. Dust 5/14
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 38	Posted - 2014.12.06 05:44:00 - [1074] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Well adaptation to changes is part of this game. So I made some suits to compensate the EQ BW. Mostly I reduced the amount of Uplinks on my first spawn to 4 deployed. Than I can spawn a commando without loosing too much (if Apex, all good). If I want to stay logi, I just spawn a tanked version of the first spawn, that has just a scanner (pro), a pathetic hive (compact) and a dirty needle. There you go, better survivability and still getting points from those links... Support though... well not so much. Cheers With bandwidth i'll just start a game running a minmatar with 3 complex kinkats and 3 sets of uplinks. After that logi dies I'll either spawn murder logi or support logi depending on the situation. Amarr logistics will be my new AV suit. Dust 5/14
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1377	Posted - 2014.12.09 00:35:00 - [1075] - Quote Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. I still like this idea. Is this even possible? Logistics is dying out because they are literally dying.(low survival) This could draw players to logistics because they'll survive longer. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Songs of Seraphim Murphys-Law 108	Posted - 2014.12.09 01:06:00 - [1076] - Quote Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. I still like this idea. Is this even possible? Logistics is dying out because they are literally dying.(low survival) This could draw players to logistics because they'll survive longer. You say you want greater survivability on logistics, yet you want to take away its weapon... You know that makes as much sense as a sex addict putting his **** in a blender? Plus, we will have to wait after 1.10 to see how all the roles play among themselves... THEN we can reevaluate the state of logistics and what they will need in addition to what the past 50 pages have been about. Raging alcoholic. Quafe is life. Quafe is love.
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1297	Posted - 2014.12.09 14:11:00 - [1077] - Quote a non combat logi is fine. but it cant be that powerful. it still needs to be killable in order to take out squads. otherwise 5 super logis on 1 sentinel would be literally unkillable by a whole team. meeones idea is way to much. they should keep the side arm though. but make it like pistols only. no smgs and stuff. syphon filter splits weapons in 3 categorys. your main weapon, light weapons in this case. and smgs go into an auxillary category. then sidearms are the same. itd be like a sidearm/smallweapons/light weapons/heavy weapons in dust. good for scouts and logis. anyway. logis will never be correct until all the repair tools are in the game and properly distributed. there needs to be the shield repair tool and the armor tool needs to go to gal and amarr as ive already said on previous occasions. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1383	Posted - 2014.12.09 20:24:00 - [1078] - Quote Songs of Seraphim wrote: Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. I still like this idea. Is this even possible? Logistics is dying out because they are literally dying.(low survival) This could draw players to logistics because they'll survive longer. You say you want greater survivability on logistics, yet you want to take away its weapon... You know that makes as much sense as a sex addict putting his **** in a blender? Plus, we will have to wait after 1.10 to see how all the roles play among themselves... THEN we can reevaluate the state of logistics and what they will need in addition to what the past 50 pages have been about. I am so glad you read the part about it being a variety. You know,an option,not the only one. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1383	Posted - 2014.12.09 20:25:00 - [1079] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: a non combat logi is fine. but it cant be that powerful. it still needs to be killable in order to take out squads. otherwise 5 super logis on 1 sentinel would be literally unkillable by a whole team. meeones idea is way to much. they should keep the side arm though. but make it like pistols only. no smgs and stuff. syphon filter splits weapons in 3 categorys. your main weapon, light weapons in this case. and smgs go into an auxillary category. then sidearms are the same. itd be like a sidearm/smallweapons/light weapons/heavy weapons in dust. good for scouts and logis. anyway. logis will never be correct until all the repair tools are in the game and properly distributed. there needs to be the shield repair tool and the armor tool needs to go to gal and amarr as ive already said on previous occasions. Ok then,what would you suggest as a fair trade for all offensive ability? Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5702	Posted - 2014.12.09 20:33:00 - [1080] - Quote Meee One wrote: Auris Lionesse wrote: a non combat logi is fine. but it cant be that powerful. it still needs to be killable in order to take out squads. otherwise 5 super logis on 1 sentinel would be literally unkillable by a whole team. meeones idea is way to much. they should keep the side arm though. but make it like pistols only. no smgs and stuff. syphon filter splits weapons in 3 categorys. your main weapon, light weapons in this case. and smgs go into an auxillary category. then sidearms are the same. itd be like a sidearm/smallweapons/light weapons/heavy weapons in dust. good for scouts and logis. anyway. logis will never be correct until all the repair tools are in the game and properly distributed. there needs to be the shield repair tool and the armor tool needs to go to gal and amarr as ive already said on previous occasions. Ok then,what would you suggest as a fair trade for all offensive ability? Nothing. There is no such thing as a useful noncombatant on the battlefield. Logistics are a PRIME reason why I say you cannot balance in DUST the way you do in EVE. And those ships in EVE are fragile as all hell. there is no precedent for an obnoxiously tanky, non-shooting walking target that reps people and spams hives. Never mind that the only way to make the defenses viable would be to make it able to tank past an HMG Heavy's overheat. Otehrwise you just get chopped to chutney anyway. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1383	Posted - 2014.12.09 20:57:00 - [1081] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Meee One wrote: Auris Lionesse wrote: a non combat logi is fine. but it cant be that powerful. it still needs to be killable in order to take out squads. otherwise 5 super logis on 1 sentinel would be literally unkillable by a whole team. meeones idea is way to much. they should keep the side arm though. but make it like pistols only. no smgs and stuff. syphon filter splits weapons in 3 categorys. your main weapon, light weapons in this case. and smgs go into an auxillary category. then sidearms are the same. itd be like a sidearm/smallweapons/light weapons/heavy weapons in dust. good for scouts and logis. anyway. logis will never be correct until all the repair tools are in the game and properly distributed. there needs to be the shield repair tool and the armor tool needs to go to gal and amarr as ive already said on previous occasions. Ok then,what would you suggest as a fair trade for all offensive ability? Nothing. There is no such thing as a useful noncombatant on the battlefield. Logistics are a PRIME reason why I say you cannot balance in DUST the way you do in EVE. And those ships in EVE are fragile as all hell. there is no precedent for an obnoxiously tanky, non-shooting walking target that reps people and spams hives. Never mind that the only way to make the defenses viable would be to make it able to tank past an HMG Heavy's overheat. Otehrwise you just get chopped to chutney anyway. This is why it would also have speed. It would survive via defense,not offense. It would dodge and weave,if need be,run away. And would add another unique feature to an already unique game. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1384	Posted - 2014.12.09 23:36:00 - [1082] - Quote Meee One wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Meee One wrote: Auris Lionesse wrote: a non combat logi is fine. but it cant be that powerful. it still needs to be killable in order to take out squads. otherwise 5 super logis on 1 sentinel would be literally unkillable by a whole team. meeones idea is way to much. they should keep the side arm though. but make it like pistols only. no smgs and stuff. syphon filter splits weapons in 3 categorys. your main weapon, light weapons in this case. and smgs go into an auxillary category. then sidearms are the same. itd be like a sidearm/smallweapons/light weapons/heavy weapons in dust. good for scouts and logis. anyway. logis will never be correct until all the repair tools are in the game and properly distributed. there needs to be the shield repair tool and the armor tool needs to go to gal and amarr as ive already said on previous occasions. Ok then,what would you suggest as a fair trade for all offensive ability? Nothing. There is no such thing as a useful noncombatant on the battlefield. Logistics are a PRIME reason why I say you cannot balance in DUST the way you do in EVE. And those ships in EVE are fragile as all hell. there is no precedent for an obnoxiously tanky, non-shooting walking target that reps people and spams hives. Never mind that the only way to make the defenses viable would be to make it able to tank past an HMG Heavy's overheat. Otehrwise you just get chopped to chutney anyway. This is why it would also have speed. It would survive via defense,not offense. It would dodge and weave,if need be,run away. And would add another unique feature to an already unique game. And it wouldn't become FOTM,because only killing suits become FOTM. You'ld see who the real logibros are,because most would switch to it. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 159	Posted - 2014.12.10 00:33:00 - [1083] - Quote Meee One wrote: And it wouldn't become FOTM,because only killing suits become FOTM. You'ld see who the real logibros are,because most would switch to it. If logis are fast enough to team up with scouts, what's the counter? Right now you can counter heavy/logi pairing by using their relative lack of mobility to either win the objective hacking race or engage at a range chosen by the scouts/assaults. (Leaving aside the lack of entry/exit delay for LAVs that excessively mitigates this heavy's weakness, since it might actually be easier to kill a logi/hvy pair when they're in a LAV.) The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1303	Posted - 2014.12.11 07:17:00 - [1084] - Quote Meee One wrote: Auris Lionesse wrote: a non combat logi is fine. but it cant be that powerful. it still needs to be killable in order to take out squads. otherwise 5 super logis on 1 sentinel would be literally unkillable by a whole team. meeones idea is way to much. they should keep the side arm though. but make it like pistols only. no smgs and stuff. syphon filter splits weapons in 3 categorys. your main weapon, light weapons in this case. and smgs go into an auxillary category. then sidearms are the same. itd be like a sidearm/smallweapons/light weapons/heavy weapons in dust. good for scouts and logis. anyway. logis will never be correct until all the repair tools are in the game and properly distributed. there needs to be the shield repair tool and the armor tool needs to go to gal and amarr as ive already said on previous occasions. Ok then,what would you suggest as a fair trade for all offensive ability? i like your idea. just scaled down abit so the logis arent invincible. just saying that having 1500hp with scout reps and speed is excessive. you can buff the logis speed a bit since theyre faster than assaults base stats in eve online. and you can alter some other stuff. but it doesnt need to be that far. a logi should need to reply on his team for protection. he cant be so strong that he can just walk around oblivious to everything happening and reap points off people. he needs to be just as killable as everyone else. it doesnt exclude a buff to help them if they give up the ability to fight. in eve rep tools would be the weapon slot so it makes sense here. rep tool, scrambler pistol for emergencys or no sidearm like your saying. base stat speed buff. bonuses to racial equipment and the racial repairer and then a bonus to racial tank. seems fair to me. any logi changes need to include the shield repair tool and the armor tool being given to amarr and gal as ive said previously. it comes down to whether you want that to count as a weapon slot. think repair tool of battlefield able to hurt vehicles and kill at close range. or keep it as equipment and in your case remove their weapons altogether. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 703	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:33:00 - [1085] - Quote I've always wanted a setting on my repair tool for KILL. Just like MAG and Battlefield where they damaged vehicles and infantry and installations. Obviously remove the lock on mechanic and give it a line of fire equal to its repair range.... new reason for flux tools :) It could have an overheat function - the reason it is damaging is that it is scrambling everything on overdrive, not the cool, calculated, and methodical repair stream that is the normal setting. Single button switchout If this could equally damage soldiers as much as a sidearm and damage Vehicles in a competitive but under par AV function I would have little trouble in giving up my Amarr side arm slot. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 705	Posted - 2014.12.11 23:00:00 - [1086] - Quote Meee One wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross Logistics Mk.0 Injectors: WP as incentive is nice,but if a MLT frame can walk up and tap O to negate your Pro needle then the problem still remains. Doesn't really help shield tankers. -Need a needle priority system that uses the HIGHEST level needle when reviving. -Possibly reduce the amount of armor refilled and give a comperable amount of shields instead. Rep tool: Neon "kill me" sign. Can't outrep a MLT weapon with a Pro rep tool. Places logistics firmly on the frontlines of combat with its insanely short reach. Provides 0 incentive other than WP farming. Allies don't know they're being repaired. Doesn't really help shield tankers. -Remove the rep tool line to aid in logistics survival,leave the lock on boxes. -Give damage resistance while using (something like 65% to all damage) -Increase range by dramatic amounts for the logistics class. -Return the rep tool glow,but have it work like hit detection so an ally can see which side they are being repaired from -Negate shield recharge delays while used on allies,or recharge 25% of shields per hp/s restored. (eg sixkin 88 hp/s so 25% of 88) possibly reduce armor repair rate to compensate. Presto a rep tool that helps shield and armor. Hives - Any- Too easily destroyed by any stray explosions. Low carrying capacity. Low refilling amounts. (nanites) Annoying when a MLT frame stands on top throwing grenades at no one to use them faster. -Explosive resistance increase so it actually takes effort to destroy them. -+1 carried per level logistics bonus -Increased nanites -or- burst variants that refill faster but have lower nanites (think compact nanohives). -Disable grenades being refilled Scanners: Dat cooldown. -Nuff' said Uplinks: Actually alright R.E.s: The description says volitile chemicals yet i see scouts throw them from hights taller than their own suit,and sling them as if they are throwing frisbees. Are considered equipment yet can be refilled at nanohives. -Have them explode killing only the thrower if dropped from too high a height or slung with too much momentum -Disable refilling from hives Logistics suits: 30 more eHP than a scout Slower than heavier tanked mediums Bigger hitbox despite having less eHP Doesn't have the best regen despite having less eHP Doesn't have the best eHP despite its speed. When run as a support unit it costs easily 2x as much with 1/2 the survival Since logistics has more in common with scouts (ewar,equipment) logistics should be made to mimic them. -Keep the low eHP but in exchange give speed/stamina,regen amount and speed,and a smaller hitbox. This way it establishes a theme,support is fast and evasive,while killing is strong and durable. -Cut equipment costs by 50% minimal Based on personal experience,i would prefer to be harder to hit with better regen than have higher eHP. eHP just makes it too tempting to fight instead of support. More this.... Any word from Cross? The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
xXCleopatra FlippantXx F0RSAKEN EMPIRE. Smart Deploy 74	Posted - 2014.12.12 05:32:00 - [1087] - Quote I ran LOGI for 2+ years. I feal i have to stick with the 'CORE REP' to do any fun progressive repping. If you just upped the rep rate and made them focus on squad mates(if the coding doesent kill the game). Allso, dont go with the longest range, like maybe have the range from the standard rep on something like a core, that would make them working just fine i think. If you guys could add modules that extends the range of the rep tool on cost of a tank fit that would be savvy. Maybe boost the passive scan range so they can do some actual logistics too, but you guys tell me if im wrong
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 705	Posted - 2014.12.12 19:08:00 - [1088] - Quote xXCleopatra FlippantXx wrote: I ran LOGI for 2+ years. I feal i have to stick with the 'CORE REP' to do any fun progressive repping. If you just upped the rep rate and made them prioritize on squad mates(if the coding doesent kill the game). Allso, dont go with the longest range, like maybe have the range from the standard rep on something like a core, that would make them working just fine i think. I allso agree they need a slight EHP bonus and speed but in addition If you guys could add modules that extends the range of the rep tool on cost of a tank fit that would be savvy. If you re balance to make them give less damage then the other classes you can easily evade the risk of combat logi. Maybe boost the passive scan range so they can do some actual logistics too, but you guys tell me if im wrong I think you're on to something. Modules that affect equipment never even crossed my mind :) Having a range module or efficiency module or nano boost module would be awesome; and trading that for some tank factor may be justified if it keeps the logi out of harms way. Your point about survivability (ehp and speed) certainly echos many of our thoughts. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 705	Posted - 2014.12.12 19:33:00 - [1089] - Quote But I can't remember if the coding for affecting equipment is actually possible. I remember that some time ago - years - that was impossibly improbable. But, with the logi bonuses being what they are now that may have been overcome :) I'm sorry that I cant remember. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 628	Posted - 2014.12.12 20:43:00 - [1090] - Quote xXCleopatra FlippantXx wrote: I ran LOGI for 2+ years. I feal i have to stick with the 'CORE REP' to do any fun progressive repping. If you just upped the rep rate and made them prioritize on squad mates(if the coding doesent kill the game). Allso, dont go with the longest range, like maybe have the range from the standard rep on something like a core, that would make them working just fine i think. I allso agree they need a slight EHP bonus and speed but in addition If you guys could add modules that extends the range of the rep tool on cost of a tank fit that would be savvy. If you re balance to make them give less damage then the other classes you can easily evade the risk of combat logi. Maybe boost the passive scan range so they can do some actual logistics too, but you guys tell me if im wrong We generally are already doing less damage than most of the other classes by virtue of those classes being bonused for damage one way or another. All this neutering of the combat efficiency of a suit whose role largely puts it in the thick of combat is extremely detrimental to the class overall. I'm not necessarily there to fight but at any point need to be capable of fighting. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 101	Posted - 2014.12.12 21:59:00 - [1091] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: We generally are already doing less damage than most of the other classes by virtue of those classes being bonused for damage one way or another. All this neutering of the combat efficiency of a suit whose role largely puts it in the thick of combat is extremely detrimental to the class overall. I'm not necessarily there to fight but at any point need to be capable of fighting. I do agree with el OPERATOR on this one. Peoples fear of slayer logi's is greatly unfounded. Even emptying all the equipment and fitting only shield and Armor modules you can not come close to the assault counterpart in ehp, movement, shield regen, and with the exception of the Amar Logi no side arm. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 632	Posted - 2014.12.12 23:36:00 - [1092] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: That's all fine and good, and yes I did read the entire BW thread. Remember that it's not meant to be done in isolation, it should be part of a larger logistics revamp as we've been discussing all along. Doing one without the others certainly does not leave us in a markedly better position than currently, but all of them together just as certainly would. And, now, here we are... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 635	Posted - 2014.12.13 00:00:00 - [1093] - Quote I propose a new tier of War Point generation: +15-40wp for Logi Guarding. Basically, using the existing Cocentric Circles data add the above modifier to the reward total generated by any teammate who successfully makes a kill while within the Cocentric Circle range of any friendly Logi. The closer they are to said Logi, the higher the WP reward. Part of the major issue in running Logistics outside of a Corp or Friend squad is that the suit and role is made to require what Meee One called an "escort". We need to be protected. Not just by our heavies, but by everyone. And we rarely, actively, are. So, incentivise that. Add a WP reward to defending the Logi. This will not only encourage randomblues to actively protect that sillybluebannana BUT will also help mitigate some of this WarPoint/Leaderboard envy that, while not spoken of directly often, infuses most arguements against Logi performance/reward buffs. 4 frikin months and we can't get any meaningful direct buffs. Maybe we can get something for our teammates instead. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 708	Posted - 2014.12.13 00:07:00 - [1094] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I propose a new tier of War Point generation: +15-40wp for Logi Guarding. Basically, using the existing Cocentric Circles data add the above modifier to the reward total generated by any teammate who successfully makes a kill while within the Cocentric Circle range of any friendly Logi. The closer they are to said Logi, the higher the WP reward. Part of the major issue in running Logistics outside of a Corp or Friend squad is that the suit and role is made to require what Meee One called an "escort". We need to be protected. Not just by our heavies, but by everyone. And we rarely, actively, are. So, incentivise that. Add a WP reward to defending the Logi. This will not only encourage randomblues to actively protect that sillybluebannana BUT will also help mitigate some of this WarPoint/Leaderboard envy that, while not spoken of directly often, infuses most arguements against Logi performance/reward buffs. 4 frikin months and we can't get any meaningful direct buffs. Maybe we can get something for our teammates instead. I like where this is headed. There was a bonus just applied to being near a letter, slapping it on a logi is awesome. You are right that it adds incentive to protect the logi and give other players the boost that they may feel they are missing from our reps/nanos/spawns etc. .... whatever it takes to make my logi a surviving and valuable resource. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 635	Posted - 2014.12.13 00:19:00 - [1095] - Quote Oh, and I finally finished all the back reading I needed to do on this thread. BW implementation has made some swaths of the discussion moot. BW implementation WITHOUT the rest of the equipment and bonusing overhaul has made life real 50/50 out there- We've lost the flexibility we had and have gained...? I still don't like the FatnFastWeaponlessLogi idea. I could see it as a variant, but not the exclusive design. Shield Reppers I'm on the fence about. I understand the armor/shields "lore" that works in EVE but don't really see a reptool niche for it. Now, as an idea for some of the hives that others have pointed out as being redundant or otherwise useless, I can very easily see Shield Regen Hives having a place, much like armor regen hives. Maybe variants that rep shields and variants that override depletion delays/boost rates. Since Hive laying is also the CalLogi forte adding Shield Repping hives seems like a not-so-bad idea to me. Give all Logis sidearms. You, Me and all the rest of us deserve the ability to defend ourselves. The RepairTool having an offensive ability is a great idea, and one that I was real suprised to find wasn't implemented when I first skilled Reppers. As a close up almost OHK (chargedshot NK level of damage/range) item I like it. As a selectable high-volume discharge type item (a flamethrower. YES. A muthafukin' flamethrower) I like it even more. AND, this sort of capability could very reasonably be balanced with the addition of some sort of charge-up/cooldown mechanic. Charging/cooling mechanic NOT being neccessary otherwise. I think thats it for now...besides all the rest of things that have been proposed in here. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 635	Posted - 2014.12.13 00:23:00 - [1096] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I propose a new tier of War Point generation: +15-40wp for Logi Guarding. Basically, using the existing Cocentric Circles data add the above modifier to the reward total generated by any teammate who successfully makes a kill while within the Cocentric Circle range of any friendly Logi. The closer they are to said Logi, the higher the WP reward. Part of the major issue in running Logistics outside of a Corp or Friend squad is that the suit and role is made to require what Meee One called an "escort". We need to be protected. Not just by our heavies, but by everyone. And we rarely, actively, are. So, incentivise that. Add a WP reward to defending the Logi. This will not only encourage randomblues to actively protect that sillybluebannana BUT will also help mitigate some of this WarPoint/Leaderboard envy that, while not spoken of directly often, infuses most arguements against Logi performance/reward buffs. 4 frikin months and we can't get any meaningful direct buffs. Maybe we can get something for our teammates instead. I like where this is headed. There was a bonus just applied to being near a letter, slapping it on a logi is awesome. You are right that it adds incentive to protect the logi and give other players the boost that they may feel they are missing from our reps/nanos/spawns etc. .... whatever it takes to make my logi a surviving and valuable resource. Yeah, it gives every mode a sort of " Protect the VIP" vibe, which really is what should be happening anyway. And to all my excellent Corp/Team/Squadmates who already know and are doing this, Thank You. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1147	Posted - 2014.12.13 00:25:00 - [1097] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Basically, using the existing Cocentric Circles data add the above modifier to the reward total generated by any teammate who successfully makes a kill while within the Cocentric Circle range of any friendly Logi. The closer they are to said Logi, the higher the WP reward. Because what Dust needs most is higher rewards for Heavy+Logi Blobs.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 636	Posted - 2014.12.13 00:34:00 - [1098] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Basically, using the existing Cocentric Circles data add the above modifier to the reward total generated by any teammate who successfully makes a kill while within the Cocentric Circle range of any friendly Logi. The closer they are to said Logi, the higher the WP reward. Because what Dust needs most is higher rewards for Heavy+Logi Blobs. Because what DUST needs is higher rewards period, since higher rewards =higher pay. AND since DUSTs primary feature is that it's a TEAMWORK rewarding game, it would only make sense that the Heavy/Logi blob is well rewarded since it's by far the most evident example of player coordinated TEAMWORK that exists. AND since most randoms don't give two ***** about protecting Logis, maybe a point bonus on top of the support would do it. AND since its an opportunity for EVERYONE, ANYONE, to be able to make more WP, why not? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 636	Posted - 2014.12.13 00:36:00 - [1099] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Basically, using the existing Cocentric Circles data add the above modifier to the reward total generated by any teammate who successfully makes a kill while within the Cocentric Circle range of any friendly Logi. The closer they are to said Logi, the higher the WP reward. Because what Dust needs most is to further incentivize Heavy+Logi Blob gameplay. lol, take that argument to the BandWidth discussion thread. Oh...wait a minute... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1148	Posted - 2014.12.13 00:57:00 - [1100] - Quote In competitive play, teamwork is a given. Imbalance is imbalance, and ideas which reinforce imbalance are less than good ideas.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 641	Posted - 2014.12.13 01:07:00 - [1101] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: In competitive play, teamwork is a given. Imbalance is imbalance, and ideas which reinforce imbalance are less than good ideas. Tell that to the Scout Class. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1150	Posted - 2014.12.13 01:09:00 - [1102] - Quote The Scout class is taking their licks; EZ Mode remains attached to the end of your rep gun.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 641	Posted - 2014.12.13 01:16:00 - [1103] - Quote LOL after how many months and pages and pages of threads and QQ back and forth about any little thing making them useless? Reread the proposal. Its open to ANYONE. You want some? Come and stay a while. You don't wanna be cool, hang out? Fine then, don't. And don't receive the benefit. Nothing imbalanced about that. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
xXCleopatra FlippantXx F0RSAKEN EMPIRE. Smart Deploy 75	Posted - 2014.12.13 01:21:00 - [1104] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: xXCleopatra FlippantXx wrote: I ran LOGI for 2+ years. I feal i have to stick with the 'CORE REP' to do any fun progressive repping. If you just upped the rep rate and made them prioritize on squad mates(if the coding doesent kill the game). Allso, dont go with the longest range, like maybe have the range from the standard rep on something like a core, that would make them working just fine i think. I allso agree they need a slight EHP bonus and speed but in addition If you guys could add modules that extends the range of the rep tool on cost of a tank fit that would be savvy. If you re balance to make them give less damage then the other classes you can easily evade the risk of combat logi. Maybe boost the passive scan range so they can do some actual logistics too, but you guys tell me if im wrong We generally are already doing less damage than most of the other classes by virtue of those classes being bonused for damage one way or another. All this neutering of the combat efficiency of a suit whose role largely puts it in the thick of combat is extremely detrimental to the class overall. I'm not necessarily there to fight but at any point need to be capable of fighting. Sorry awsome people but I dont remember how to take away my own text and keep the rest,, and dont have the time to figure it out now, so this is ment as an answer to the skepisism to the pure repping, naniting, equipment logi. Hola el OPERATOR! I never mind running games solely to rep and res and this is what I want to be doing as a logi. When i have to pull out my weapon to survive i should feel like I'd rather not do that. But its a bit un savory at the moment. Is the point of editing the logi to help facilitate more strategic repping? If that is a major point then with a little EHP a little speed and a little more range on the 'core rep tool' all you need to do is dodging incoming fire. If you are feeling for some shooting after just running reps, switch fits and have another logi take over for some time. The thing you need to be capable of is to tell people where the fire is coming in from in longer ranges and have a light weapon to shoot at scouts that a logi nerfed GEK will have a chanse to do annyways. -What would be cool is a logi role that facilitates 'pushes into hot territory' and encurage brave gunplay, instead of stalemates. This is what the core rep can do. As for allready being worse in combat, we do not do more damage then assult suits, we are same as them are we not? I was thinking to lower damage on logis to give incentive for assult builds(maybe used to take out logis from behind) rather then combat logi. But if this is not a problem i take it back. And has the increased passive scan range been mentioned alot? I would like that i think, This would give incentive to protect passive scanning logis aswell, as you risk going blind when they are down
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 641	Posted - 2014.12.13 01:23:00 - [1105] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: The Scout class is taking their licks; EZ Mode remains attached to the end of your rep gun. Good to know you've gotten a trimshave. Sucks you still haven't realized your need for a haircut. I'm glad you've got your EZMode fingerpoint ready, when all else fails then deflect, amiright? Tell you what. Hows about you endorse ALL the proposed Logi buffs to HP, CPU, PG, Speed, Sidearms, Bonuses and Equipment, WE become the newest OPFOTM for 6+months and when you raise the issue or present viable counter-buffs to other classes I'LL agree NOT to stalk your every last post with some bs reason about why its bad or otherwise the be-all end-all of making us "useless". Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1153	Posted - 2014.12.13 01:45:00 - [1106] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Basically, using the existing Cocentric Circles data add the above modifier to the reward total generated by any teammate who successfully makes a kill while within the Cocentric Circle range of any friendly Logi. The closer they are to said Logi, the higher the WP reward. You proposed the above idea. I explained why I think this idea is a bad idea. Simply my two cents. No need for tantrums or sidebar; these do not aid in vetting the merits of the proposed idea.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1102	Posted - 2014.12.13 06:44:00 - [1107] - Quote I've skimmed over the document so far and I agree with most of it. What I'd like to talk about are Proximity Explosives. In their current state, they are a very resources intensive deployable; unlike Hives and Links which drop and do their thing, the PEs need to have a large number (usually at least six) to be effective and require a reasonably long time deployed for their value to be reward - and often are not at all. With the bandwidth system implemented I think it is reasonable to consider some fairly hefty alterations to their operation, to the following effect: - Change max active to be 2/3/4 through the tiers {{This change alongside the damage alteration allows a Logi to carry them and deploy them without having to spend several minutes organising a large minefield.}} - Change max carried to be 4/5/6 through the tiers {{This change is to assist with the persistent role of deployed equipment. May need to be higher carried, uncertain.}} - Change bandwidth usage to 4 Mbit/sec {{This change is to prevent spam and over saturation from rendering ground vehicles obsolete.}} - Change damage to 800/1000/1200 {{This, along with the bandwidth and active/carried changes should allow a Logi to mine an area reasonably effectively without needing to resort to carrying multiple sets persistently. Numbers may need adjusting: 4 PRO would not quite destroy an unfitted Soma (would have 40HP left, though this is not factoring in the potential Demolitions skill change or the MinLogi change), but I'd rather low ball the numbers at first.}} Essentially, the idea is to have PEs follow the ideal that deployable equipment be a constant activity and one that can move with the squad. The reduction to active/increase in power should see less need for large fields of PEs and the Bandwidth cost would prevent them from being 'fired and forgotten' by other frames: four PEs under this change would be the total deployable Mbit/sec for PRO Assaults and Commandos and more than a Scout could deploy. Anyway...thoughts? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 104	Posted - 2014.12.13 06:55:00 - [1108] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: I've skimmed over the document so far and I agree with most of it. What I'd like to talk about are Proximity Explosives. In their current state, they are a very resources intensive deployable; unlike Hives and Links which drop and do their thing, the PEs need to have a large number (usually at least six) to be effective and require a reasonably long time deployed for their value to be reward - and often are not at all. With the bandwidth system implemented I think it is reasonable to consider some fairly hefty alterations to their operation, to the following effect: - Change max active to be 2/3/4 through the tiers {{This change alongside the damage alteration allows a Logi to carry them and deploy them without having to spend several minutes organising a large minefield.}} - Change max carried to be 4/5/6 through the tiers {{This change is to assist with the persistent role of deployed equipment. May need to be higher carried, uncertain.}} - Change bandwidth usage to 4 Mbit/sec {{This change is to prevent spam and over saturation from rendering ground vehicles obsolete.}} - Change damage to 800/1000/1200 {{This, along with the bandwidth and active/carried changes should allow a Logi to mine an area reasonably effectively without needing to resort to carrying multiple sets persistently. Numbers may need adjusting: 4 PRO would not quite destroy an unfitted Soma (would have 40HP left, though this is not factoring in the potential Demolitions skill change or the MinLogi change), but I'd rather low ball the numbers at first.}} Essentially, the idea is to have PEs follow the ideal that deployable equipment be a constant activity and one that can move with the squad. The reduction to active/increase in power should see less need for large fields of PEs and the Bandwidth cost would prevent them from being 'fired and forgotten' by other frames: four PEs under this change would be the total deployable Mbit/sec for PRO Assaults and Commandos and more than a Scout could deploy. Anyway...thoughts? I like, maybe even change the PE further instead of placing only 1 mine for 800-1200 damage maybe have one drop spread out 3 mines totaling the 800-1200 damage to get better coverage for same damage profile. being able to cover the bridge with 3 mines instead of using 6. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1102	Posted - 2014.12.13 07:00:00 - [1109] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: I like, maybe even change the PE further instead of placing only 1 mine for 800-1200 damage maybe have one drop spread out 3 mines totaling the 800-1200 damage to get better coverage for same damage profile. being able to cover the bridge with 3 mines instead of using 6. Kind of like cluster mines? Would be interesting! That's a more mechanical (ie, heavy code change) approach that would be cool, though I was focusing my suggestion on the numbers that would be easily alterable (ie, Hotfixable) but I am definitely down with that idea! Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1060	Posted - 2014.12.13 11:17:00 - [1110] - Quote Meh to the bandwidth implementation: You only fixed the spam problem because dropping down equipment and running around with nothing left to drop down (or lose your bonuses by switching at a supply depot) is still too passive for a support role. Heck if repair tools can have infinite nanites to restore suits, then give my cal-logi infinite hives or better...a ammo-restock-tool. I'm not sure if only 3 equipment slots on my proto-suit cut it with the bandwidth implementation.

ishtellian SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 70	Posted - 2014.12.15 00:47:00 - [1111] - Quote I think all logis should have like a 3% bonus to all equipment use excluding their racial equipment, but than with their racial equipment they get a 5% - 10% bonus per level, this means that specializing will be obviously better but you would still be fairly useful using a scanner with a Amarr logi suit. I think Logis should have a racial defence buff also, alongside a buff to armor regen, Gallente would get a very nice buff to armor regen and maybe even a % bonus per level, Caldari could get a recharge delay reduction or maybe HP increase, Amar could get a HP increase or a maybe even a damage resist bonus, Minmitar could maybe get a faster and more agile suit or shield recharge rate. These could help make Logis able to keep themselves alive without directly increasing their EHP. I dont think even with 5x Complex reps should a suit be able to comepletely tank anyone weapon, but combined with strafing and avoiding damage the suit should have a highly noticeable bonus to its survivability. Ive only read the first few page of comments so sorry if I repeat information. My Heavy Never Dies. Logibro In training.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4930	Posted - 2014.12.15 04:27:00 - [1112] - Quote RKKR wrote: Meh to the bandwidth implementation: You only fixed the spam problem because dropping down equipment and running around with nothing left to drop down (or lose your bonuses by switching at a supply depot) is still too passive for a support role. Heck if repair tools can have infinite nanites to restore suits, then give my cal-logi infinite hives or better...a ammo-restock-tool. I'm not sure if only 3 equipment slots on my proto-suit cut it with the bandwidth implementation. If they don't go through with the change to increase the amount carried for most EQ, I think they should at the very least give a +20% carried per level bonus to the Am/Cal logis. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1388	Posted - 2014.12.15 14:16:00 - [1113] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: RKKR wrote: Meh to the bandwidth implementation: You only fixed the spam problem because dropping down equipment and running around with nothing left to drop down (or lose your bonuses by switching at a supply depot) is still too passive for a support role. Heck if repair tools can have infinite nanites to restore suits, then give my cal-logi infinite hives or better...a ammo-restock-tool. I'm not sure if only 3 equipment slots on my proto-suit cut it with the bandwidth implementation. If they don't go through with the change to increase the amount carried for most EQ, I think they should at the very least give a +20% carried per level bonus to the Am/Cal logis. More like 1-2+ carried per level for those two. 5-10 extra deployables would last a while. But i'd like +1 to be class wide if possible. Then maybe an additional +1(for a total of 2 per level) per level for Cal and Amarr logistics. All logis would benefit,but the deployable specialists would flourish. And it would make Cal appealing again. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4930	Posted - 2014.12.15 14:29:00 - [1114] - Quote Meee One wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: RKKR wrote: Meh to the bandwidth implementation: You only fixed the spam problem because dropping down equipment and running around with nothing left to drop down (or lose your bonuses by switching at a supply depot) is still too passive for a support role. Heck if repair tools can have infinite nanites to restore suits, then give my cal-logi infinite hives or better...a ammo-restock-tool. I'm not sure if only 3 equipment slots on my proto-suit cut it with the bandwidth implementation. If they don't go through with the change to increase the amount carried for most EQ, I think they should at the very least give a +20% carried per level bonus to the Am/Cal logis. More like 1-2+ carried per level for those two. 5-10 extra deployables would last a while. But i'd like +1 to be class wide if possible. Then maybe an additional +1(for a total of 2 per level) per level for Cal and Amarr logistics. All logis would benefit,but the deployable specialists would flourish. And it would make Cal appealing again. That's fine too; I thought about that but eventually picked 20% simply because it's double at level 5. You'll find that any numbers that I choose myself come in two categories: a) Multiples of 10 that combine easily b) Totally random (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Zaria Min Deir OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 916	Posted - 2014.12.15 14:53:00 - [1115] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: You'll find that any numbers that I choose myself come in two categories: a) Multiples of 10 that combine easily b) Totally random So, basically the same as CCP? ;) Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4930	Posted - 2014.12.15 15:02:00 - [1116] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: You'll find that any numbers that I choose myself come in two categories: a) Multiples of 10 that combine easily b) Totally random So, basically the same as CCP? ;) I promise you I am not a Dev's alt. No, really. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1394	Posted - 2014.12.15 15:24:00 - [1117] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Mister Goo wrote: I like, maybe even change the PE further instead of placing only 1 mine for 800-1200 damage maybe have one drop spread out 3 mines totaling the 800-1200 damage to get better coverage for same damage profile. being able to cover the bridge with 3 mines instead of using 6. Kind of like cluster mines? Would be interesting! That's a more mechanical (ie, heavy code change) approach that would be cool, though I was focusing my suggestion on the numbers that would be easily alterable (ie, Hotfixable) but I am definitely down with that idea! Hmm...what would the total carried # need to be if you went to the distributed damage model to make this viable? i.e. less dmg per PE but put out more PEs. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1394	Posted - 2014.12.15 15:33:00 - [1118] - Quote ishtellian wrote: I think all logis should have like a 3% bonus to all equipment use excluding their racial equipment, but than with their racial equipment they get a 5% - 10% bonus per level, this means that specializing will be obviously better but you would still be fairly useful using a scanner with a Amarr logi suit. I think Logis should have a racial defence buff also, alongside a buff to armor regen, Gallente would get a very nice buff to armor regen and maybe even a % bonus per level, Caldari could get a recharge delay reduction or maybe HP increase, Amar could get a HP increase or a maybe even a damage resist bonus, Minmitar could maybe get a faster and more agile suit or shield recharge rate. These could help make Logis able to keep themselves alive without directly increasing their EHP. I dont think even with 5x Complex reps should a suit be able to comepletely tank anyone weapon, but combined with strafing and avoiding damage the suit should have a highly noticeable bonus to its survivability. Ive only read the first few page of comments so sorry if I repeat information. I've offered a couple variations of that in the past and the big concern is that we might homogenize the racial logis a little too much. I like the idea in concept, however, you might be able to find some similar options equally attractive: 1) Give all logis a bonus to repping, just not the same bonus. You could vary it by range or rep intensity; you would need to then create something like a bonus to RE / PE for the Min Logi. 2) Tie different bonuses on cross racial themes. Cal gets hive bonus and a scanner bonus, Amarr gets uplink bonus and rep bonus, Gal gets scans and uplinks, and Min gets uplinks and reps. Basically retain the current racial bonus but add a cross-racial secondary bonus. The key is to give a different or perhaps lesser bonus on the secondary...example Cal scanner would bonus to range not precision, Min uplinks would give additional spawns not reduce spawn time, etc. This also gives each logi both an active and passive equipment type they they are focused on. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Zaria Min Deir OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 917	Posted - 2014.12.15 16:26:00 - [1119] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Mister Goo wrote: I like, maybe even change the PE further instead of placing only 1 mine for 800-1200 damage maybe have one drop spread out 3 mines totaling the 800-1200 damage to get better coverage for same damage profile. being able to cover the bridge with 3 mines instead of using 6. Kind of like cluster mines? Would be interesting! That's a more mechanical (ie, heavy code change) approach that would be cool, though I was focusing my suggestion on the numbers that would be easily alterable (ie, Hotfixable) but I am definitely down with that idea! Hmm...what would the total carried # need to be if you went to the distributed damage model to make this viable? i.e. less dmg per PE but put out more PEs. Honestly, here we run into not only an issue with the newly introduced bandwidth, but also the risk-reward ratio of a much longer deployment time of an actually effective proxy trap. Yes, laying down a mine field that can instapop a tank shouldn't be risk free OR instanteneous, but it should be viable and not leave the logi vulnerable and unavailable for other tasks for too long either. Current model of having to equip multiple sets, drop down all of the carried from one, then swap, then deploy another set, maybe get on a hive to resuply to be able to deploy the rest (as max carried is always lower than max active, bizarrely) is in itself far from optimal... making this take even longer is in my opinion not desirable. Yes, increasing max carried would help, but I still prefer the model of fewer, but stronger explosives you have to place carefully, over spammable vehicle damage WP farming silliness. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1125	Posted - 2014.12.15 18:13:00 - [1120] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Hmm...what would the total carried # need to be if you went to the distributed damage model to make this viable? i.e. less dmg per PE but put out more PEs. Honestly, here we run into not only an issue with the newly introduced bandwidth, but also the risk-reward ratio of a much longer deployment time of an actually effective proxy trap. Yes, laying down a mine field that can instapop a tank shouldn't be risk free OR instanteneous, but it should be viable and not leave the logi vulnerable and unavailable for other tasks for too long either. Current model of having to equip multiple sets, drop down all of the carried from one, then swap, then deploy another set, maybe get on a hive to resuply to be able to deploy the rest (as max carried is always lower than max active, bizarrely) is in itself far from optimal... making this take even longer is in my opinion not desirable. Yes, increasing max carried would help, but I still prefer the model of fewer, but stronger explosives you have to place carefully, over spammable vehicle damage WP farming silliness. Yeah, what Zaria said. Even with, say, 20 carried and 15 deployed at PRO you'd still need about 14 to kill an unfitted Sica. As Zaria said, moving away from the current model is far more preferable; perhaps my numbers need tweaking thusly: - Carried; 6/8/10 - Deployed; 5/6/7 - Bandwidth; 3 Mbit/sec - Damage; 750/800/850 That would make fields: STD; 5750 = 3750 (15 Mbit/sec) ADV; 6800 = 4800 (18 Mbit/sec) PRO; 7* 850 = 5950 (21 Mbit/sec) All; 14,450 (54 Mbit/sec; not possible) Maybe have same deployed at each level, so the progression is in the damage and carried? [Edit: Cross asked for credentials: 45m SP, PRO MinLogi and Logi'd since during Beta.] Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1395	Posted - 2014.12.15 19:06:00 - [1121] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Mister Goo wrote: I like, maybe even change the PE further instead of placing only 1 mine for 800-1200 damage maybe have one drop spread out 3 mines totaling the 800-1200 damage to get better coverage for same damage profile. being able to cover the bridge with 3 mines instead of using 6. Kind of like cluster mines? Would be interesting! That's a more mechanical (ie, heavy code change) approach that would be cool, though I was focusing my suggestion on the numbers that would be easily alterable (ie, Hotfixable) but I am definitely down with that idea! Hmm...what would the total carried # need to be if you went to the distributed damage model to make this viable? i.e. less dmg per PE but put out more PEs. Honestly, here we run into not only an issue with the newly introduced bandwidth, but also the risk-reward ratio of a much longer deployment time of an actually effective proxy trap. Yes, laying down a mine field that can instapop a tank shouldn't be risk free OR instanteneous, but it should be viable and not leave the logi vulnerable and unavailable for other tasks for too long either. Current model of having to equip multiple sets, drop down all of the carried from one, then swap, then deploy another set, maybe get on a hive to resuply to be able to deploy the rest (as max carried is always lower than max active, bizarrely) is in itself far from optimal... making this take even longer is in my opinion not desirable. Yes, increasing max carried would help, but I still prefer the model of fewer, but stronger explosives you have to place carefully, over spammable vehicle damage WP farming silliness. In your camp on this, Zaria. I would much rather carry PEs that had serious punch and fewer of them. With the way BW is shaping up anything that makes equipment more effecient and effective per drop is a premium. I've heard a lot of discussions about dramatically increasing carried sets of equipment and i'm not too sure of how that will work at the moment with the recent changes. ps...A total side note to that is that hives and uplinks probably need a legit HP buff as well as an off shoot of the same BW issues. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
ishtellian SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 73	Posted - 2014.12.16 15:23:00 - [1122] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ishtellian wrote: I think all logis should have like a 3% bonus to all equipment use excluding their racial equipment, but than with their racial equipment they get a 5% - 10% bonus per level, this means that specializing will be obviously better but you would still be fairly useful using a scanner with a Amarr logi suit. I think Logis should have a racial defence buff also, alongside a buff to armor regen, Gallente would get a very nice buff to armor regen and maybe even a % bonus per level, Caldari could get a recharge delay reduction or maybe HP increase, Amar could get a HP increase or a maybe even a damage resist bonus, Minmitar could maybe get a faster and more agile suit or shield recharge rate. These could help make Logis able to keep themselves alive without directly increasing their EHP. I dont think even with 5x Complex reps should a suit be able to comepletely tank anyone weapon, but combined with strafing and avoiding damage the suit should have a highly noticeable bonus to its survivability. Ive only read the first few page of comments so sorry if I repeat information. I've offered a couple variations of that in the past and the big concern is that we might homogenize the racial logis a little too much. I like the idea in concept, however, you might be able to find some similar options equally attractive: 1) Give all logis a bonus to repping, just not the same bonus. You could vary it by range or rep intensity; you would need to then create something like a bonus to RE / PE for the Min Logi. 2) Tie different bonuses on cross racial themes. Cal gets hive bonus and a scanner bonus, Amarr gets uplink bonus and rep bonus, Gal gets scans and uplinks, and Min gets uplinks and reps. Basically retain the current racial bonus but add a cross-racial secondary bonus. The key is to give a different or perhaps lesser bonus on the secondary...example Cal scanner would bonus to range not precision, Min uplinks would give additional spawns not reduce spawn time, etc. This also gives each logi both an active and passive equipment type they they are focused on. I like this but if you play Eve at all, doing this kinda kills possible Pirate faction suits in the future, for example the worm is a pirate faction ship from Guristas its caldari bonus is a bonus to shield resist and its gallente bonus is a bonus to missile damage, its a caldari hull using drones heavily and missiles. But I do like the idea of all logis having their own bonus to repping since reps imo should be one of the main jobs, keeping the other guys alive. Maybe Minmatar could get one bonus rep target per suit level, +1 at STD, +2 at ADV, and +3 at PRO, kinda because lore wise, minmitar have huge numbers. Gallente could get bonus to rep strength, they dont need a range icnrease because Gall is usually upclose melting face ( Plasma Thrower please ) Caldari could get a range increase because their generally longer range than the other races. Amarr could give their rep target like 2-5% bonus resist per suit level, because amarr ships have resist bonus in Eve ( not all of them but alot compared to other races ) I do like the active/passive equipment focus for each suit tho. My Heavy Never Dies. Logibro In training.
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 6403	Posted - 2014.12.16 15:35:00 - [1123] - Quote This has basically become like the barbershop. Shouldn't we create our own version for logistics?. I am GJRs Renfield. You heard it here first, I told you so.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1402	Posted - 2014.12.16 16:32:00 - [1124] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: This has basically become like the barbershop. Shouldn't we create our own version for logistics?. The DHL of Dust... "Because we do Logistics" "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1402	Posted - 2014.12.16 16:36:00 - [1125] - Quote ishtellian wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ishtellian wrote: I think all logis should have like a 3% bonus to all equipment use excluding their racial equipment, but than with their racial equipment they get a 5% - 10% bonus per level, this means that specializing will be obviously better but you would still be fairly useful using a scanner with a Amarr logi suit. I think Logis should have a racial defence buff also, alongside a buff to armor regen, Gallente would get a very nice buff to armor regen and maybe even a % bonus per level, Caldari could get a recharge delay reduction or maybe HP increase, Amar could get a HP increase or a maybe even a damage resist bonus, Minmitar could maybe get a faster and more agile suit or shield recharge rate. These could help make Logis able to keep themselves alive without directly increasing their EHP. I dont think even with 5x Complex reps should a suit be able to comepletely tank anyone weapon, but combined with strafing and avoiding damage the suit should have a highly noticeable bonus to its survivability. Ive only read the first few page of comments so sorry if I repeat information. I've offered a couple variations of that in the past and the big concern is that we might homogenize the racial logis a little too much. I like the idea in concept, however, you might be able to find some similar options equally attractive: 1) Give all logis a bonus to repping, just not the same bonus. You could vary it by range or rep intensity; you would need to then create something like a bonus to RE / PE for the Min Logi. 2) Tie different bonuses on cross racial themes. Cal gets hive bonus and a scanner bonus, Amarr gets uplink bonus and rep bonus, Gal gets scans and uplinks, and Min gets uplinks and reps. Basically retain the current racial bonus but add a cross-racial secondary bonus. The key is to give a different or perhaps lesser bonus on the secondary...example Cal scanner would bonus to range not precision, Min uplinks would give additional spawns not reduce spawn time, etc. This also gives each logi both an active and passive equipment type they they are focused on. I like this but if you play Eve at all, doing this kinda kills possible Pirate faction suits in the future, for example the worm is a pirate faction ship from Guristas its caldari bonus is a bonus to shield resist and its gallente bonus is a bonus to missile damage, its a caldari hull using drones heavily and missiles. But I do like the idea of all logis having their own bonus to repping since reps imo should be one of the main jobs, keeping the other guys alive. Maybe Minmatar could get one bonus rep target per suit level, +1 at STD, +2 at ADV, and +3 at PRO, kinda because lore wise, minmitar have huge numbers. Gallente could get bonus to rep strength, they dont need a range icnrease because Gall is usually upclose melting face ( Plasma Thrower please ) Caldari could get a range increase because their generally longer range than the other races. Amarr could give their rep target like 2-5% bonus resist per suit level, because amarr ships have resist bonus in Eve ( not all of them but alot compared to other races ) I do like the active/passive equipment focus for each suit tho. I am passably familiar with Eve. I fly with Agony Unleashed. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 6404	Posted - 2014.12.16 16:38:00 - [1126] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: This has basically become like the barbershop. Shouldn't we create our own version for logistics?. The DHL of Dust... "Because we do Logistics" I like that a lot. I am GJRs Renfield. You heard it here first, I told you so.
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1313	Posted - 2014.12.16 16:43:00 - [1127] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ishtellian wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ishtellian wrote: I think all logis should have like a 3% bonus to all equipment use excluding their racial equipment, but than with their racial equipment they get a 5% - 10% bonus per level, this means that specializing will be obviously better but you would still be fairly useful using a scanner with a Amarr logi suit. I think Logis should have a racial defence buff also, alongside a buff to armor regen, Gallente would get a very nice buff to armor regen and maybe even a % bonus per level, Caldari could get a recharge delay reduction or maybe HP increase, Amar could get a HP increase or a maybe even a damage resist bonus, Minmitar could maybe get a faster and more agile suit or shield recharge rate. These could help make Logis able to keep themselves alive without directly increasing their EHP. I dont think even with 5x Complex reps should a suit be able to comepletely tank anyone weapon, but combined with strafing and avoiding damage the suit should have a highly noticeable bonus to its survivability. Ive only read the first few page of comments so sorry if I repeat information. I've offered a couple variations of that in the past and the big concern is that we might homogenize the racial logis a little too much. I like the idea in concept, however, you might be able to find some similar options equally attractive: 1) Give all logis a bonus to repping, just not the same bonus. You could vary it by range or rep intensity; you would need to then create something like a bonus to RE / PE for the Min Logi. 2) Tie different bonuses on cross racial themes. Cal gets hive bonus and a scanner bonus, Amarr gets uplink bonus and rep bonus, Gal gets scans and uplinks, and Min gets uplinks and reps. Basically retain the current racial bonus but add a cross-racial secondary bonus. The key is to give a different or perhaps lesser bonus on the secondary...example Cal scanner would bonus to range not precision, Min uplinks would give additional spawns not reduce spawn time, etc. This also gives each logi both an active and passive equipment type they they are focused on. I like this but if you play Eve at all, doing this kinda kills possible Pirate faction suits in the future, for example the worm is a pirate faction ship from Guristas its caldari bonus is a bonus to shield resist and its gallente bonus is a bonus to missile damage, its a caldari hull using drones heavily and missiles. But I do like the idea of all logis having their own bonus to repping since reps imo should be one of the main jobs, keeping the other guys alive. Maybe Minmatar could get one bonus rep target per suit level, +1 at STD, +2 at ADV, and +3 at PRO, kinda because lore wise, minmitar have huge numbers. Gallente could get bonus to rep strength, they dont need a range icnrease because Gall is usually upclose melting face ( Plasma Thrower please ) Caldari could get a range increase because their generally longer range than the other races. Amarr could give their rep target like 2-5% bonus resist per suit level, because amarr ships have resist bonus in Eve ( not all of them but alot compared to other races ) I do like the active/passive equipment focus for each suit tho. I am passably familiar with Eve. I fly with Agony Unleashed, come visit us in Catch. give ccp ratatti your code and teach him to play, guy thinks dropsuits shouldnt be balanced by eve ships. smh Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 647	Posted - 2014.12.16 18:23:00 - [1128] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ishtellian wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ishtellian wrote: I think all logis should have like a 3% bonus to all equipment use excluding their racial equipment, but than with their racial equipment they get a 5% - 10% bonus per level, this means that specializing will be obviously better but you would still be fairly useful using a scanner with a Amarr logi suit. I think Logis should have a racial defence buff also, alongside a buff to armor regen, Gallente would get a very nice buff to armor regen and maybe even a % bonus per level, Caldari could get a recharge delay reduction or maybe HP increase, Amar could get a HP increase or a maybe even a damage resist bonus, Minmitar could maybe get a faster and more agile suit or shield recharge rate. These could help make Logis able to keep themselves alive without directly increasing their EHP. I dont think even with 5x Complex reps should a suit be able to comepletely tank anyone weapon, but combined with strafing and avoiding damage the suit should have a highly noticeable bonus to its survivability. Ive only read the first few page of comments so sorry if I repeat information. I've offered a couple variations of that in the past and the big concern is that we might homogenize the racial logis a little too much. I like the idea in concept, however, you might be able to find some similar options equally attractive: 1) Give all logis a bonus to repping, just not the same bonus. You could vary it by range or rep intensity; you would need to then create something like a bonus to RE / PE for the Min Logi. 2) Tie different bonuses on cross racial themes. Cal gets hive bonus and a scanner bonus, Amarr gets uplink bonus and rep bonus, Gal gets scans and uplinks, and Min gets uplinks and reps. Basically retain the current racial bonus but add a cross-racial secondary bonus. The key is to give a different or perhaps lesser bonus on the secondary...example Cal scanner would bonus to range not precision, Min uplinks would give additional spawns not reduce spawn time, etc. This also gives each logi both an active and passive equipment type they they are focused on. I like this but if you play Eve at all, doing this kinda kills possible Pirate faction suits in the future, for example the worm is a pirate faction ship from Guristas its caldari bonus is a bonus to shield resist and its gallente bonus is a bonus to missile damage, its a caldari hull using drones heavily and missiles. But I do like the idea of all logis having their own bonus to repping since reps imo should be one of the main jobs, keeping the other guys alive. Maybe Minmatar could get one bonus rep target per suit level, +1 at STD, +2 at ADV, and +3 at PRO, kinda because lore wise, minmitar have huge numbers. Gallente could get bonus to rep strength, they dont need a range icnrease because Gall is usually upclose melting face ( Plasma Thrower please ) Caldari could get a range increase because their generally longer range than the other races. Amarr could give their rep target like 2-5% bonus resist per suit level, because amarr ships have resist bonus in Eve ( not all of them but alot compared to other races ) I do like the active/passive equipment focus for each suit tho. I am passably familiar with Eve. I fly with Agony Unleashed, come visit us in Catch. give ccp ratatti your code and teach him to play, guy thinks dropsuits shouldnt be balanced by eve ships. smh Thats good to hear, he's on the right track then. EVE provides our background lore and plenty of the universes defining elements. However, tying our dropsuit designs too closely to EVE ship designs is a mistake I'm glad he's not making. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 647	Posted - 2014.12.16 18:57:00 - [1129] - Quote If PEs need anything its to actually work as Proximity Explosives . As they are they require physical contact to detonate which is what neccessitates seeding the ground with them instead of just planting one. Since they do not detect on Proximity it takes 7-12 explosives to effectively cordon off just one city entrance or bridge mouth. Make them detect on Proximity then start adjusting the dps/payloads. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 308	Posted - 2014.12.17 01:22:00 - [1130] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: If PEs need anything its to actually work as Proximity Explosives . As they are they require physical contact to detonate which is what neccessitates seeding the ground with them instead of just planting one. Since they do not detect on Proximity it takes 7-12 explosives to effectively cordon off just one city entrance or bridge mouth. Make them detect on Proximity then start adjusting the dps/payloads. Like I said before, make them attracted to vehicles like av nades. vehicle gets too close with the annoying beep, than he deserves his vehicle popped. Would be hilarious to make a rooftop mines that pop incoming derps btw. Sage /thread

Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1212	Posted - 2014.12.17 03:02:00 - [1131] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: Like I said before, make them attracted to vehicles like av nades. vehicle gets too close with the annoying beep, than he deserves his vehicle popped. Would be hilarious to make a rooftop mines that pop incoming derps btw. Love the idea of short-range homing PEs. Could add RE's "sticky" characteristic to make for more clever trap setting.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 122	Posted - 2014.12.17 22:00:00 - [1132] - Quote Cross I know it been a while since you have posted. Any chance you can give an update, are the devs looking into getting any logi changes out in the next update? Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 710	Posted - 2014.12.22 02:51:00 - [1133] - Quote It has been too long for Cross, I hope he is ok. I have several of the APEX suits. For the logistics characters I hate the gear slot set up. I believe there was a thread out there that addressed it and seeing if we could change the slot layout of the equipment to be universal on the Apex Logis. Counting the equipment slots with 1 being at the bottom and 4 (3 for Cal and Amar) being on the far right, I preferr my Repair Tool to be 4 (3) and my Nanite injector to be 1 and the variables to be placed in the middle. I could even go with Repper 4 (3) and Injector 3 (2) and the variants in 1 and 2 (1) I like to play around and I believe that keeping the equipment layout the same between logis (I guess scouts would fit in there too). So it doesn't take me extra time to find what I need. My layout is so scripted I don't even look on my regular fits, in less than a second I have what I need and I'm just waiting on the animation. Any guidance for a thread that talks about this? Otherwise - Cross, please at it to the 'to do list' :) Thanks The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Zaria Min Deir OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 946	Posted - 2014.12.22 08:05:00 - [1134] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: It has been too long for Cross, I hope he is ok. I have several of the APEX suits. For the logistics characters I hate the gear slot set up. I believe there was a thread out there that addressed it and seeing if we could change the slot layout of the equipment to be universal on the Apex Logis. Counting the equipment slots with 1 being at the bottom and 4 (3 for Cal and Amar) being on the far right, I preferr my Repair Tool to be 4 (3) and my Nanite injector to be 1 and the variables to be placed in the middle. I could even go with Repper 4 (3) and Injector 3 (2) and the variants in 1 and 2 (1) I like to play around and I believe that keeping the equipment layout the same between logis (I guess scouts would fit in there too). So it doesn't take me extra time to find what I need. My layout is so scripted I don't even look on my regular fits, in less than a second I have what I need and I'm just waiting on the animation. Any guidance for a thread that talks about this? Otherwise - Cross, please at it to the 'to do list' :) Thanks Perhaps this is yet another example of the people designing the game not having played it enough to understand many of the mechanics... Like the fact that, for a logi, order of the equipment in the slots can make a huge difference, particularly with any lag involved on top of the already clunky equipment wheel. Though I would remind you, there is no universal equipment layout, every logi makes their own, so your preferred order would be annoying to someone else. Though I guess if it was at least consistent between different APEX suits, that would be at least logical (too logical for CCP?) Pretty much, the issue here is that APEX suits are what they are, BPO suits that are noncustomisable. You knew what you were buing... well, except for (minor) issue, when it comes to the APEX suits, of there being no way to know what you are buying in-game Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4966	Posted - 2014.12.22 15:31:00 - [1135] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: It has been too long for Cross, I hope he is ok. I have several of the APEX suits. For the logistics characters I hate the gear slot set up. I believe there was a thread out there that addressed it and seeing if we could change the slot layout of the equipment to be universal on the Apex Logis. Counting the equipment slots with 1 being at the bottom and 4 (3 for Cal and Amar) being on the far right, I preferr my Repair Tool to be 4 (3) and my Nanite injector to be 1 and the variables to be placed in the middle. I could even go with Repper 4 (3) and Injector 3 (2) and the variants in 1 and 2 (1) I like to play around and I believe that keeping the equipment layout the same between logis (I guess scouts would fit in there too). So it doesn't take me extra time to find what I need. My layout is so scripted I don't even look on my regular fits, in less than a second I have what I need and I'm just waiting on the animation. Any guidance for a thread that talks about this? Otherwise - Cross, please at it to the 'to do list' :) Thanks Perhaps this is yet another example of the people designing the game not having played it enough to understand many of the mechanics... Like the fact that, for a logi, order of the equipment in the slots can make a huge difference, particularly with any lag involved on top of the already clunky equipment wheel. Though I would remind you, there is no universal equipment layout, every logi makes their own, so your preferred order would be annoying to someone else. Though I guess if it was at least consistent between different APEX suits, that would be at least logical (too logical for CCP?) Pretty much, the issue here is that APEX suits are what they are, BPO suits that are noncustomisable. You knew what you were buing... well, except for yhe (minor) issue, when it comes to the APEX suits, of there being no way to know what you are buying in-game True. I don't organize my stuff like that. I've always found it less clunky accessing the EQ on the outer slots (1 and 3), so I put the needle in #2 because you don't need to actually switch to it using the so-amazing wheel that CCP created for us. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 710	Posted - 2014.12.23 02:47:00 - [1136] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: It has been too long for Cross, I hope he is ok. I have several of the APEX suits. For the logistics characters I hate the gear slot set up. I believe there was a thread out there that addressed it and seeing if we could change the slot layout of the equipment to be universal on the Apex Logis. Counting the equipment slots with 1 being at the bottom and 4 (3 for Cal and Amar) being on the far right, I preferr my Repair Tool to be 4 (3) and my Nanite injector to be 1 and the variables to be placed in the middle. I could even go with Repper 4 (3) and Injector 3 (2) and the variants in 1 and 2 (1) I like to play around and I believe that keeping the equipment layout the same between logis (I guess scouts would fit in there too). So it doesn't take me extra time to find what I need. My layout is so scripted I don't even look on my regular fits, in less than a second I have what I need and I'm just waiting on the animation. Any guidance for a thread that talks about this? Otherwise - Cross, please at it to the 'to do list' :) Thanks Perhaps this is yet another example of the people designing the game not having played it enough to understand many of the mechanics... Like the fact that, for a logi, order of the equipment in the slots can make a huge difference, particularly with any lag involved on top of the already clunky equipment wheel. Though I would remind you, there is no universal equipment layout, every logi makes their own, so your preferred order would be annoying to someone else. Though I guess if it was at least consistent between different APEX suits, that would be at least logical (too logical for CCP?) Pretty much, the issue here is that APEX suits are what they are, BPO suits that are noncustomisable. You knew what you were buing... well, except for the (minor) issue, when it comes to the APEX suits, of there being no way to know what you are buying in-game Consistency is all I am going for. The items that are the same on each logi suit to be the same on the selection wheel... But not being able to move it around is frustrating. Maybe someday when CCP can introduce new programming that would allow adjustment I'll switch it. Till then I'll cheer on Tiercide. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1176	Posted - 2014.12.23 03:44:00 - [1137] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: This has basically become like the barbershop. Shouldn't we create our own version for logistics?. Patience, gotta wait for most of the changes to be implemented. Bandwidth was a great start, and I'm really hoping a few more of these great ideas see the light of day! Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2315	Posted - 2014.12.23 05:45:00 - [1138] - Quote We should increase the amount of deployables carried. Hard caps on amount deployed and bandwidth have all but stopped spam save by dedicated logis, so why not help logis not need to visit the supply depot every minute or so to refill on links and hives? For that matter, why not have links and hives refill at supply depots? Do not go gentle into that good night; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1411	Posted - 2014.12.23 08:59:00 - [1139] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: We should increase the amount of deployables carried. Hard caps on amount deployed and bandwidth have all but stopped spam save by dedicated logis, so why not help logis not need to visit the supply depot every minute or so to refill on links and hives? For that matter, why not have links and hives refill at supply depots? The issue with that option is that you would need to adjust the Logi suits wih a sgnificantly increased BW or they would need to drop the BW down to a base number of 3. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2315	Posted - 2014.12.23 09:03:00 - [1140] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: We should increase the amount of deployables carried. Hard caps on amount deployed and bandwidth have all but stopped spam save by dedicated logis, so why not help logis not need to visit the supply depot every minute or so to refill on links and hives? For that matter, why not have links and hives refill at supply depots? The issue with that option is that you would need to adjust the Logi suits wih a sgnificantly increased BW or they would need to drop the BW down to a base number of 3. Unnecessary. This does not allow the logi to drop more equipment. It only allows him to replace it easier before needing to refit at a supply depot. Do not go gentle into that good night; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Zaria Min Deir OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 954	Posted - 2014.12.23 09:42:00 - [1141] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: We should increase the amount of deployables carried. Hard caps on amount deployed and bandwidth have all but stopped spam save by dedicated logis, so why not help logis not need to visit the supply depot every minute or so to refill on links and hives? For that matter, why not have links and hives refill at supply depots? The issue with that option is that you would need to adjust the Logi suits wih a sgnificantly increased BW or they would need to drop the BW down to a base number of 3. Unnecessary. This does not allow the logi to drop more equipment. It only allows him to replace it easier before needing to refit at a supply depot. This. It's a question of increasing max carried, not max active. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1411	Posted - 2014.12.23 15:04:00 - [1142] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: We should increase the amount of deployables carried. Hard caps on amount deployed and bandwidth have all but stopped spam save by dedicated logis, so why not help logis not need to visit the supply depot every minute or so to refill on links and hives? For that matter, why not have links and hives refill at supply depots? The issue with that option is that you would need to adjust the Logi suits wih a sgnificantly increased BW or they would need to drop the BW down to a base number of 3. Unnecessary. This does not allow the logi to drop more equipment. It only allows him to replace it easier before needing to refit at a supply depot. This. It's a question of increasing max carried, not max active. I haven't found it to be too much of a problem but I have on occasion run dry of uplinks and wouldn't mind another. I would much rather have a BW meter in the HUD tbh. We can manage suit resupply pretty much the way we have been up to this point but having a much better handle on BW capacity would be useful. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4969	Posted - 2014.12.23 16:05:00 - [1143] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: We should increase the amount of deployables carried. Hard caps on amount deployed and bandwidth have all but stopped spam save by dedicated logis, so why not help logis not need to visit the supply depot every minute or so to refill on links and hives? For that matter, why not have links and hives refill at supply depots? The issue with that option is that you would need to adjust the Logi suits wih a sgnificantly increased BW or they would need to drop the BW down to a base number of 3. Unnecessary. This does not allow the logi to drop more equipment. It only allows him to replace it easier before needing to refit at a supply depot. This. It's a question of increasing max carried, not max active. I haven't found it to be too much of a problem but I have on occasion run dry of uplinks and wouldn't mind another. I would much rather have a BW meter in the HUD tbh. We can manage suit resupply pretty much the way we have been up to this point but having a much better handle on BW capacity would be useful. I think we can all agree that a BW meter would be extremely helpful. Add my vote to doubling max carried and allowing them to be restocked at supply depots. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 657	Posted - 2014.12.23 18:47:00 - [1144] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: We should increase the amount of deployables carried. Hard caps on amount deployed and bandwidth have all but stopped spam save by dedicated logis, so why not help logis not need to visit the supply depot every minute or so to refill on links and hives? For that matter, why not have links and hives refill at supply depots? The issue with that option is that you would need to adjust the Logi suits wih a sgnificantly increased BW or they would need to drop the BW down to a base number of 3. Unnecessary. This does not allow the logi to drop more equipment. It only allows him to replace it easier before needing to refit at a supply depot. This. It's a question of increasing max carried, not max active. I haven't found it to be too much of a problem but I have on occasion run dry of uplinks and wouldn't mind another. I would much rather have a BW meter in the HUD tbh. We can manage suit resupply pretty much the way we have been up to this point but having a much better handle on BW capacity would be useful. I think we can all agree that a BW meter would be extremely helpful. Add my vote to doubling max carried and allowing them to be restocked at supply depots.[/quote] I agree, we ( and subsequently our teammates) are best served by the addition of both. Raise max carried for the temporary duration and somewhere in the mid-term transition all deployables to the sheet suggestion. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2324	Posted - 2014.12.23 20:49:00 - [1145] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: We should increase the amount of deployables carried. Hard caps on amount deployed and bandwidth have all but stopped spam save by dedicated logis, so why not help logis not need to visit the supply depot every minute or so to refill on links and hives? For that matter, why not have links and hives refill at supply depots? The issue with that option is that you would need to adjust the Logi suits wih a sgnificantly increased BW or they would need to drop the BW down to a base number of 3. Unnecessary. This does not allow the logi to drop more equipment. It only allows him to replace it easier before needing to refit at a supply depot. This. It's a question of increasing max carried, not max active. I haven't found it to be too much of a problem but I have on occasion run dry of uplinks and wouldn't mind another. I would much rather have a BW meter in the HUD tbh. We can manage suit resupply pretty much the way we have been up to this point but having a much better handle on BW capacity would be useful. BW capacity on the HUD is a necessity, but I still want to push for more max carried. I should be able to carry 6-10 deployables, if only to make replacement easier. Plus, as the battle shifts, it makes putting down links/hives in the new location far more streamlined. Do not go gentle into that good night; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 711	Posted - 2014.12.24 00:43:00 - [1146] - Quote If you take a look at the google doc at the beginning of the thread you will see the equipment proposal that outlines more deployable equipment but decreased spawns per uplink. Like 12 uplinks carried but only 10 spawns per uplink. The same goes for nanos. Ultimately your equipment is still as potent (spawns and nanos) but divided between multiple items. Now it just isn't locked into place for the entire game when it was only useful for a few moments. This would change the current tactics of landing 1 uplink in a remote area and having 62 spawns per uplink where clones can just forget about it and continue to spawn there. Now, some one would need to remain behind to replace an uplink. It also allows the uplinks to travel as your team does, rather than single hard point placements. I like it. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2327	Posted - 2014.12.24 00:45:00 - [1147] - Quote This works for uplinks, but splitting up ammo is simply a bad idea. As it is it takes next to no time for 2-3 people to drain a proto hive, even with CalLogi bonuses. So I'd simply advocate increased max carry for hives. Do not go gentle into that good night; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 711	Posted - 2014.12.24 01:18:00 - [1148] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: This works for uplinks, but splitting up ammo is simply a bad idea. As it is it takes next to no time for 2-3 people to drain a proto hive, even with CalLogi bonuses. So I'd simply advocate increased max carry for hives. Yep, the nano bonus is pretty weak, and nanohives in general feel weak. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1416	Posted - 2014.12.24 02:37:00 - [1149] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: If you take a look at the google doc at the beginning of the thread you will see the equipment proposal that outlines more deployable equipment but decreased spawns per uplink. Like 12 uplinks carried but only 10 spawns per uplink. The same goes for nanos. Ultimately your equipment is still as potent (spawns and nanos) but divided between multiple items. Now it just isn't locked into place for the entire game when it was only useful for a few moments. This would change the current tactics of landing 1 uplink in a remote area and having 62 spawns per uplink where clones can just forget about it and continue to spawn there. Now, some one would need to remain behind to replace an uplink. It also allows the uplinks to travel as your team does, rather than single hard point placements. I like it. I am very familiar with the proposal and it sounds interesting at least. Honestly, I'm not that sold on it but I can see the some of the logic behind it. One of the concerns is how do you adjust the actual stats of the equipment so there is some actual practical use involved. You would have to really tune the nano hive varieties and the uplinks definitely but to a lesser degree. Additionally, we really need to rebook some of the BW costs per equipment type and get that normalized first. The counter proposal is to leave our max carried basically alone or perhaps with a slight buff but add some significant value to the equipment you do drop (i.e. serious eHP, spawns, nano clusters, etc) so that the choice to emplace a given piece of equipment is more significant. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1424	Posted - 2014.12.28 18:38:00 - [1150] - Quote Rescuing from obscurity. How about logistics grenades? Or logibombs. Other suits have flux and locus. Why not give logistics nanite grenades? They function just like regular grenades but with a twist. They repair/refill instead of doing damage. They can come in 3 flavors: -ammo -hybrid -triage They can use currently in-game assets too. Flux grenade shell and flux explosion. Here's a scenario: A logistics sees a trapped nearly dead ally or allies. The logistics user doesn't want to die trying fruitlessly to save them. The rep tool won't reach,and they can't throw hives that far. Instead they prime a nanite grenade and throw it. % health refilled for allallies in the radius. (seeing as regular grenades can do 500 and up the % would be high as well) The logistics gets triage for all allies repped,and the allies get to keep fighting. This could even be used to revive allies from a distance.(possibly) One thing this would do is show who the slayer logis are because they would still use locus'. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.

Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 317	Posted - 2014.12.29 01:22:00 - [1151] - Quote Meee One wrote: Rescuing from obscurity. How about logistics grenades? Or logibombs. Other suits have flux and locus. Why not give logistics nanite grenades? They function just like regular grenades but with a twist. They repair/refill instead of doing damage. They can come in 3 flavors: -ammo -hybrid -triage They can use currently in-game assets too. Flux grenade shell and flux explosion. Here's a scenario: A logistics sees a trapped nearly dead ally or allies. The logistics user doesn't want to die trying fruitlessly to save them. The rep tool won't reach,and they can't throw hives that far. Instead they prime a nanite grenade and throw it. % health refilled for allallies in the radius. (seeing as regular grenades can do 500 and up the % would be high as well) The logistics gets triage for all allies repped,and the allies get to keep fighting. This could even be used to revive allies from a distance.(possibly) One thing this would do is show who the slayer logis are because they would still use locus'. You make me laugh Meee One. The proposal is not bad, its just the end where you mention "slayer logis". Even if these grenades where in the game, the lack of a sidearm makes the locus a great tool to back off opponents as you reload or fall back. Sage /thread
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 658	Posted - 2014.12.30 23:29:00 - [1152] - Quote Happy New Year, Logis. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 245	Posted - 2015.01.01 10:47:00 - [1153] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Happy New Year, Logis. Repping through the hangover with healing nanohives, shout if you need Logi love. Also happy new year. But every night I burn. Screaming the animal scream. Every night I burn. Dreaming the crow-black dream
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 759	Posted - 2015.01.02 04:39:00 - [1154] - Quote I would like the Cal - Logi equipment bonus be applied to the Injector instead of Nanohives. When a call picks you up, have it give you ammo and temporary damage resistance Who cares what some sniper has to say
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1436	Posted - 2015.01.02 07:04:00 - [1155] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: I would like the Cal - Logi equipment bonus be applied to the Injector instead of Nanohives. When a call picks you up, have it give you ammo and temporary damage resistance I think having the bonus to both needles and hives is more appropriate and functional. By tagging the Cal Logi to only the needle you take the suit with the least desirable bonus and likely devalue it further. Additionally, if there was an "accept revive" mechanic and not a "call for help" it would be more attractive...rarely do folks call for pickups anymore. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of increasing the value of revives. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1431	Posted - 2015.01.02 07:19:00 - [1156] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: I would like the Cal - Logi equipment bonus be applied to the Injector and Nanohives. When a call picks you up, have it give you ammo. FTFY That is no longer OP. As to the new equipment sheet... It says 'less' spam. Yet i see half performance. So i translate that to: -one used to be able to do the job,now it takes 4,but i'm arbitrarily prevented from deploying more than 2 Wouldn't in a 'less spam' scenario it be double or even triple performance,but halving deployed? -one of these new ones does the job of 4 of the old ones,i can save the others until i need them Currently all those changes are a kick squarely in the nards for equipment. Unless... -clusters can refill more (eg. 24 Current clusters refill 2 bullets,24 new clusters refill 4-6) -uplinks get hyper fast spawn times I'd prefer 2-3x effective but 1/2 deployed. + carrying capacity would make logistics very valuable during those times when running to a supply depot just isn't an option. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1436	Posted - 2015.01.03 02:05:00 - [1157] - Quote About 'cooldowns' on rep tools. I hope they'll be getting a boost in performance to accomidate the downtime. EG. Six kin works for 15 seconds,but is down 15,it reps 176hp/s instead of 88 to maximize performance. But as i've said before. Do you really want logis shooting more than they are supporting? If so,you should add a cooldown/capacitor. And here i thought people had enough of slayer logis. Just a general reply aimed at no one. Just a lot of nerf rep tool threads coming up. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1438	Posted - 2015.01.03 04:00:00 - [1158] - Quote Meee One wrote: About 'cooldowns' on rep tools. I hope they'll be getting a boost in performance to accomidate the downtime. EG. Six kin works for 15 seconds,but is down 15,it reps 176hp/s instead of 88 to maximize performance. But as i've said before. Do you really want logis shooting more than they are supporting? If so,you should add a cooldown/capacitor. And here i thought people had enough of slayer logis. Just a general reply aimed at no one. Just a lot of nerf rep tool threads coming up. I've been noticing the rep tool nerf threads a few times as well. I'm growing mildly concerned to be honest. I've seen not mention of any kind of balance / optimization pass for Logi suits mentioned anywhere and there are too many "big idea" topics such as PC re-work that will likely push back any work on our suits even further. I'm getting pretty frustrated with this. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 769	Posted - 2015.01.03 04:30:00 - [1159] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Meee One wrote: About 'cooldowns' on rep tools. I hope they'll be getting a boost in performance to accomidate the downtime. EG. Six kin works for 15 seconds,but is down 15,it reps 176hp/s instead of 88 to maximize performance. But as i've said before. Do you really want logis shooting more than they are supporting? If so,you should add a cooldown/capacitor. And here i thought people had enough of slayer logis. Just a general reply aimed at no one. Just a lot of nerf rep tool threads coming up. I've been noticing the rep tool nerf threads a few times as well. I'm growing mildly concerned to be honest. I've seen not mention of any kind of balance / optimization pass for Logi suits mentioned anywhere and there are too many "big idea" topics such as PC re-work that will likely push back any work on our suits even further. I'm getting pretty frustrated with this. For the record, I do not support any sort of rep tool nerf, whatsoever. As it stands, heavy hugging is a two man mechanic where one player forgoes using his own gun to enhance the defensive capabilities of another player. In my view that seems like a totally acceptable team-oriented, sacrifice-laden activity. It doesn't deserve to be nerfed.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1439	Posted - 2015.01.03 05:39:00 - [1160] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Meee One wrote: About 'cooldowns' on rep tools. I hope they'll be getting a boost in performance to accomidate the downtime. EG. Six kin works for 15 seconds,but is down 15,it reps 176hp/s instead of 88 to maximize performance. But as i've said before. Do you really want logis shooting more than they are supporting? If so,you should add a cooldown/capacitor. And here i thought people had enough of slayer logis. Just a general reply aimed at no one. Just a lot of nerf rep tool threads coming up. I've been noticing the rep tool nerf threads a few times as well. I'm growing mildly concerned to be honest. I've seen not mention of any kind of balance / optimization pass for Logi suits mentioned anywhere and there are too many "big idea" topics such as PC re-work that will likely push back any work on our suits even further. I'm getting pretty frustrated with this. For the record, I do not support any sort of rep tool nerf, whatsoever. As it stands, heavy hugging is a two man mechanic where one player forgoes using his own gun to enhance the defensive capabilities of another player. In my view that seems like a totally acceptable team-oriented, sacrifice-laden activity. It doesn't deserve to be nerfed. Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching. We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4260	Posted - 2015.01.03 05:44:00 - [1161] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching. We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF. Especially since there are some simple quality of life changes that could happen easily and don't really require extensive balance passes such as fixing the messed up slot progression. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 771	Posted - 2015.01.03 06:05:00 - [1162] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching. We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF. Especially since there are some simple quality of life changes that could happen easily and don't really require extensive balance passes such as fixing the messed up slot progression. I hear you guys LOUD and CLEAR. Cross and I are focused on improving the plight of the logi. We get it. On a side note, I'd really like to get the two of you in a squad and speak to you on coms. Let me know if we can work that out sometime soon.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 245	Posted - 2015.01.03 07:55:00 - [1163] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching. We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF. Especially since there are some simple quality of life changes that could happen easily and don't really require extensive balance passes such as fixing the messed up slot progression. Maybe the issue now is that there are no logi tourists left ( or very few ) and that those that are left are either very good to ok at the role. This probably translates as logis, in some respects, that get very few kills but lots of WP's BECAUSE they understand the role and know how to fit the suits to get the best out of the role. Therefore placing fairly high on the leaderboard and therefore upsetting some of the misplaced epeen of the slayer mindset ? This then results in threads asking for nerfs to logi gameplay. The issue perhaps is the perception as a logi as a WP *****/leech who contributes little in the way of slaying and objective capture. An absurd notion for even the staunchest logi hater that flies in the face of some of the more obvious cons of running a logi suit in a slayer environment yet will gladly accept the benefits without question. Now I am not saying everyone thinks this way, in fact most decent squads are looking for logis for reps, uplinks, hives and scans. Which shows that people understand that logis are a force multiplier. It should be a symbiotic relationship that benefits all players and in most cases it is. Having a logi in squad IS a massive benefit for all in the squad and the team. It does mean that the logis weapon is not always drawn and that they need some protection BUT they can rez you, rep you when hurt, provide spawn points and give you ammo. Seems like a good idea to me and a role I enjoy. Occasionally you will run into extreme examples of logi gameplay. Obviously the 1000+ HP heavy and several logis repping it and each other and also the most recent one the tanked min assault with logi support. However in each case there are several disadvantages and several ways of dealing with this none of which I am going to bother explaining as anyone with half a brain can figure out. A logi should be the one thing a good squad needs as much as the other suits need weapons, not a necessity but beneficial. Some people will not be happy until the logi is castrated completely but will be the first to moan there is no one to rep, rez, drop ammo and provide spawns in game. Go figure !!!! Anyway rambled on enough, just my 2isk. But every night I burn. Screaming the animal scream. Every night I burn. Dreaming the crow-black dream
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 988	Posted - 2015.01.03 12:13:00 - [1164] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I've seen not mention of any kind of balance / optimization pass for Logi suits mentioned anywhere and there are too many "big idea" topics such as PC re-work that will likely push back any work on our suits even further. I'm getting pretty frustrated with this. You're not the only one I have become more and more convinced that the opportunity to get even the most basic level of an optimization pass for Logi suits passed when the medium suits hotfix ended up just becoming an Assault hotfix... Rattati seems to have moved on pretty decisively from the topic, distracted by "more important", shinier things. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1439	Posted - 2015.01.03 13:35:00 - [1165] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: I hear you guys LOUD and CLEAR. Cross and I are focused on improving the plight of the logi. We get it. On a side note, I'd really like to get the two of you in a squad and speak to you on coms. Let me know if we can work that out sometime soon. No problem, SMB. Shoot me a note on Skype or in-game with your prime times and we'll hook up. I'm Best Coast and Pokey is Mountain TZ but i'm sure we can link up. I do appreciate the work you are bringing to the table for the logi crew. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4266	Posted - 2015.01.03 16:07:00 - [1166] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: SirManBoy wrote: I hear you guys LOUD and CLEAR. Cross and I are focused on improving the plight of the logi. We get it. On a side note, I'd really like to get the two of you in a squad and speak to you on coms. Let me know if we can work that out sometime soon. No problem, SMB. Shoot me a note on Skype or in-game with your prime times and we'll hook up. I'm Best Coast and Pokey is Mountain TZ but i'm sure we can link up. I do appreciate the work you are bringing to the table for the logi crew. Same. Let me know if you need my skype info. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 669	Posted - 2015.01.03 18:35:00 - [1167] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching. We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF. Especially since there are some simple quality of life changes that could happen easily and don't really require extensive balance passes such as fixing the messed up slot progression. I hear you guys LOUD and CLEAR. Cross and I are focused on improving the plight of the logi. We get it. On a side note, I'd really like to get the two of you in a squad and speak to you on coms. Let me know if we can work that out sometime soon. Git Er Dun, SMB and Cross!! Worthwhile LogiBuffs+DSCommand5 requirement= Success!!! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 669	Posted - 2015.01.03 18:46:00 - [1168] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching. We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF. Especially since there are some simple quality of life changes that could happen easily and don't really require extensive balance passes such as fixing the messed up slot progression. Maybe the issue now is that there are no logi tourists left ( or very few ) and that those that are left are either very good to ok at the role. This probably translates as logis, in some respects, that get very few kills but lots of WP's BECAUSE they understand the role and know how to fit the suits to get the best out of the role. Therefore placing fairly high on the leaderboard and therefore upsetting some of the misplaced epeen of the slayer mindset ? This then results in threads asking for nerfs to logi gameplay. The issue perhaps is the perception as a logi as a WP *****/leech who contributes little in the way of slaying and objective capture. An absurd notion for even the staunchest logi hater that flies in the face of some of the more obvious cons of running a logi suit in a slayer environment yet will gladly accept the benefits without question. Now I am not saying everyone thinks this way, in fact most decent squads are looking for logis for reps, uplinks, hives and scans. Which shows that people understand that logis are a force multiplier. It should be a symbiotic relationship that benefits all players and in most cases it is. Having a logi in squad IS a massive benefit for all in the squad and the team. It does mean that the logis weapon is not always drawn and that they need some protection BUT they can rez you, rep you when hurt, provide spawn points and give you ammo. Seems like a good idea to me and a role I enjoy. Occasionally you will run into extreme examples of logi gameplay. Obviously the 1000+ HP heavy and several logis repping it and each other and also the most recent one the tanked min assault with logi support. However in each case there are several disadvantages and several ways of dealing with this none of which I am going to bother explaining as anyone with half a brain can figure out. A logi should be the one thing a good squad needs as much as the other suits need weapons, not a necessity but beneficial. Some people will not be happy until the logi is castrated completely but will be the first to moan there is no one to rep, rez, drop ammo and provide spawns in game. Go figure !!!! Anyway rambled on enough, just my 2isk. I'm still seeing the tourists abound, especially in ambush. BushLogis, it seems to me, are doing the most to reinforce the "Logis are WP whores" notion since they primarily ONLY rep or pitch links. As the matches are short and focused on killing those end of match leaderboards that list Logis in the top spots with or over good slayers create the easily distorted perception Logistics is ezmode. I've quietly sighed to myself many times while squadded with some random who decides to randomly run a beam then spend the next 7 minutes crowing about their WP take as they do NOTHING besides heavyblob. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1439	Posted - 2015.01.03 19:01:00 - [1169] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I've seen not mention of any kind of balance / optimization pass for Logi suits mentioned anywhere and there are too many "big idea" topics such as PC re-work that will likely push back any work on our suits even further. I'm getting pretty frustrated with this. You're not the only one I have become more and more convinced that the opportunity to get even the most basic level of an optimization pass for Logi suits passed when the medium suits hotfix ended up just becoming an Assault hotfix... Rattati seems to have moved on pretty decisively from the topic, distracted by "more important", shinier things. Oh logistics 'had their chance'. It just involved stripping the Amarr logistics of it's sidearm. Remember that? Gal logistics can't get equal slots because Amarr logistics wouldn't surrender it's sidearm. Ridiculous,i know. They act if they are the same suit or something. And every other post about logistics slot balancing always comes down to stripping the Amarr logistics of it's sidearm. It seems CCP will ignore the whole class because of a single suits sidearm,the one described as "being able to deal out its own trauma" aka the only logistics actually meant to kill things. The insanity is on a whole 'nother level. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 670	Posted - 2015.01.03 19:20:00 - [1170] - Quote Meee One wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I've seen not mention of any kind of balance / optimization pass for Logi suits mentioned anywhere and there are too many "big idea" topics such as PC re-work that will likely push back any work on our suits even further. I'm getting pretty frustrated with this. You're not the only one I have become more and more convinced that the opportunity to get even the most basic level of an optimization pass for Logi suits passed when the medium suits hotfix ended up just becoming an Assault hotfix... Rattati seems to have moved on pretty decisively from the topic, distracted by "more important", shinier things. Oh logistics 'had their chance'. It just involved stripping the Amarr logistics of it's sidearm. Remember that? Gal logistics can't get equal slots because Amarr logistics wouldn't surrender it's sidearm. Ridiculous,i know. They act if they are the same suit or something. And every other post about logistics slot balancing always comes down to stripping the Amarr logistics of it's sidearm. It seems CCP will ignore the whole class because of a single suits sidearm,the one described as "being able to deal out its own trauma" aka the only logistics actually meant to kill things. The insanity is on a whole 'nother level. "Nooo!! That'll make Scouts deep breath inhale USELESSSSSSS!!!!!!1!1!" 8::::::::::::::( Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1439	Posted - 2015.01.03 19:26:00 - [1171] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching. We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF. Especially since there are some simple quality of life changes that could happen easily and don't really require extensive balance passes such as fixing the messed up slot progression. Maybe the issue now is that there are no logi tourists left ( or very few ) and that those that are left are either very good to ok at the role. This probably translates as logis, in some respects, that get very few kills but lots of WP's BECAUSE they understand the role and know how to fit the suits to get the best out of the role. Therefore placing fairly high on the leaderboard and therefore upsetting some of the misplaced epeen of the slayer mindset ? This then results in threads asking for nerfs to logi gameplay. The issue perhaps is the perception as a logi as a WP ***/leech who contributes little in the way of slaying and objective capture. An absurd notion for even the staunchest logi hater that flies in the face of some of the more obvious cons of running a logi suit in a slayer environment yet will gladly accept the benefits without question. Now I am not saying everyone thinks this way, in fact most decent squads are looking for logis for reps, uplinks, hives and scans. Which shows that people understand that logis are a force multiplier. It should be a symbiotic relationship that benefits all players and in most cases it is. Having a logi in squad IS a massive benefit for all in the squad and the team. It does mean that the logis weapon is not always drawn and that they need some protection BUT they can rez you, rep you when hurt, provide spawn points and give you ammo. Seems like a good idea to me and a role I enjoy. Occasionally you will run into extreme examples of logi gameplay. Obviously the 1000+ HP heavy and several logis repping it and each other and also the most recent one the tanked min assault with logi support. However in each case there are several disadvantages and several ways of dealing with this none of which I am going to bother explaining as anyone with half a brain can figure out. A logi should be the one thing a good squad needs as much as the other suits need weapons, not a necessity but beneficial. Some people will not be happy until the logi is castrated completely but will be the first to moan there is no one to rep, rez, drop ammo and provide spawns in game. Go figure !!!! Anyway rambled on enough, just my 2isk. I'm still seeing the tourists abound, especially in ambush. BushLogis, it seems to me, are doing the most to reinforce the "Logis are WP whores" notion since they primarily ONLY rep or pitch links. As the matches are short and focused on killing those end of match leaderboards that list Logis in the top spots with or over good slayers create the easily distorted perception Logistics is ezmode. I've quietly sighed to myself many times while squadded with some random who decides to randomly run a beam then spend the next 7 minutes crowing about their WP take as they do NOTHING besides heavyblob. The problem is that the killing and supporting activities are grouped together. Kill specialists can see they helped,but supporting is foreign and unknown,so it is undervalued. So when they see someone with 0/X higher than them in 'points',they react as other FPS that don't have suppot have taught them,they complain. If there were 2 separate but equal EOM leader boards it would end most complaining. -A 'kill' board showing kills (from 1-total players) -A 'support' board showing support based actions (from 1-total players,showing amount healed,ammo refilled,spawns provided) Someone specializing in support with 0 kills would be at the bottom of the 'kill' board. While they are the top** of the 'support' board. While to the 'killer' the inverse would be true. Payouts would work as usual for each board,top gets the most. WP wouldn't change,it would just tally it up differently. 0 wp from kills? To the bottom of the 'kill' board you go. 1000 wp from support? To the top of the 'support' board you go. If push comes to shove (killers still complain about WP) the boards could be completely cut off from one another. Having a 'you must run logistics 51% of the time to see the support board' requirement. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1439	Posted - 2015.01.03 20:02:00 - [1172] - Quote As a sidenote. Rattati did say they were going to try to make a mass based inertia system. Which means logistics should be second only to scouts in terms of speed and stamina/stamina regen. But that also means any eHP mods are going to have a crippling effect on logistics speed,but assaults it'll barely scratch. So the most expensive suit in the game will probably have its strafe be sub par,because 'logistics shouldn't be able to survive'. As well as have crippling penalties to speed,which were actually meant to hurt scouts,because 'logistics shouldn't be able to survive'. That's if the rules are applied fairly. Remember how he was willing (and almost eager) to nerf logistics speed while simultaneously buffing assault eHP and slots with 0 speed reduction? That alone showed that logistics and assault are immune to the words 'fair' or 'balanced'. The latter receiving the favoritism. Something tells me logistics will still be disproportionately slow with low eHP. And new speed penalties (on eHP mods) will push the class further to extinction. Which is why BW was so readily accepted,because they're about to royally f* the class up. So they force anyone wanting to use equipment to stay in an even slower low eHP suit. My future predicting powers say you're going to see 400-500 eHP logistics moving as fast as sentinels. Or eHP stacked logistics moving slower** than sentinels. Assaults will be moving 1% slower,maybe. Scouts will be unphased. And sentinels will still be fat. Brace for more heavy-logi QQ than ever before! Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 672	Posted - 2015.01.03 23:50:00 - [1173] - Quote Meee One wrote: As a sidenote. Rattati did say they were going to try to make a mass based inertia system. Which means logistics should be second only to scouts in terms of speed and stamina/stamina regen. But that also means any eHP mods are going to have a crippling effect on logistics speed,but assaults it'll barely scratch. So the most expensive suit in the game will probably have its strafe be sub par,because 'logistics shouldn't be able to survive'. As well as have crippling penalties to speed,which were actually meant to hurt scouts,because 'logistics shouldn't be able to survive'. That's if the rules are applied fairly. Remember how he was willing (and almost eager) to nerf logistics speed while simultaneously buffing assault eHP and slots with 0 speed reduction? That alone showed that logistics and assault are immune to the words 'fair' or 'balanced'. The latter receiving the favoritism. Something tells me logistics will still be disproportionately slow with low eHP. And new speed penalties (on eHP mods) will push the class further to extinction. Which is why BW was so readily accepted,because they're about to royally f* the class up. So they force anyone wanting to use equipment to stay in an even slower low eHP suit. My future predicting powers say you're going to see 400-500 eHP logistics moving as fast as sentinels. Or eHP stacked logistics moving slower** than sentinels. Assaults will be moving 1% slower,maybe. Scouts will be unphased. And sentinels will still be fat. Brace for more heavy-logi QQ than ever before! I can't lie about the amount of entertainment I've had and will have as all these little ideas that were proposed to balance scouts just continue to nerf everyone else instead Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
benandjerrys NECROM0NGERS 78	Posted - 2015.01.04 00:52:00 - [1174] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: SirManBoy wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Meee One wrote: About 'cooldowns' on rep tools. I hope they'll be getting a boost in performance to accomidate the downtime. EG. Six kin works for 15 seconds,but is down 15,it reps 176hp/s instead of 88 to maximize performance. But as i've said before. Do you really want logis shooting more than they are supporting? If so,you should add a cooldown/capacitor. And here i thought people had enough of slayer logis. Just a general reply aimed at no one. Just a lot of nerf rep tool threads coming up. I've been noticing the rep tool nerf threads a few times as well. I'm growing mildly concerned to be honest. I've seen not mention of any kind of balance / optimization pass for Logi suits mentioned anywhere and there are too many "big idea" topics such as PC re-work that will likely push back any work on our suits even further. I'm getting pretty frustrated with this. For the record, I do not support any sort of rep tool nerf, whatsoever. As it stands, heavy hugging is a two man mechanic where one player forgoes using his own gun to enhance the defensive capabilities of another player. In my view that seems like a totally acceptable team-oriented, sacrifice-laden activity. It doesn't deserve to be nerfed. Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching. We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF. Very few logivets left? They have morphed into omnisoldiers... Guys tired of that heavy that doesn't listen that gets his suit killed in the process. Everyone is talking about rep tool reduction and ehp when it really comes down to the wp. When I first started logibroin it was for the wp like many people out there, its lackluster and hated. When I support people now its to keep the push not get the wp. Baseline support actions are needed. When I get a kill assist with a Intel kill assist with a guardian its hilarious mix in a triage and resupp for lulz. Point restructuring is needed and its a simple fix but boosters would exploit this I fear. Tl;Dr Bring changes to support efficiency not wp hoarders. And this for more lulz https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=59148
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1442	Posted - 2015.01.04 02:32:00 - [1175] - Quote Meee One wrote: As a sidenote. Rattati did say they were going to try to make a mass based inertia system. Which means logistics should be second only to scouts in terms of speed and stamina/stamina regen. But that also means any eHP mods are going to have a crippling effect on logistics speed,but assaults it'll barely scratch. So the most expensive suit in the game will probably have its strafe be sub par,because 'logistics shouldn't be able to survive'. As well as have crippling penalties to speed,which were actually meant to hurt scouts,because 'logistics shouldn't be able to survive'. That's if the rules are applied fairly. Remember how he was willing (and almost eager) to nerf logistics speed while simultaneously buffing assault eHP and slots with 0 speed reduction? That alone showed that logistics and assault are immune to the words 'fair' or 'balanced'. The latter receiving the favoritism. Something tells me logistics will still be disproportionately slow with low eHP. And new speed penalties (on eHP mods) will push the class further to extinction. Which is why BW was so readily accepted,because they're about to royally f* the class up. So they force anyone wanting to use equipment to stay in an even slower low eHP suit. My future predicting powers say you're going to see 400-500 eHP logistics moving as fast as sentinels. Or eHP stacked logistics moving slower** than sentinels. Assaults will be moving 1% slower,maybe. Scouts will be unphased. And sentinels will still be fat. Brace for more heavy-logi QQ than ever before! This could all be made so much simpler. 1) Have both Logi & Assaults have the same suit stats and high/low slots. Adjust CPU / PG for outlier slot shifts. 2) Add a moderate amount of CPU to the Cal Logi and either a sidearm or 4th equipment slot. At this point I don't care which one - I can make both work fine. (I would probably prefer the sidearm option). 3) Give a second equipment option bonus to all logi suits so you've got a bigger range of options or just give everyone a different flavor or retool bonus on top of their current bonus (range, intensity, etc). 4) Cut the price of equipment dramatically. 5) Don't nerf the rep tools. If you add a capacitor or heat mechanic give the logi's a massive role bonus to it's use (like 200% cap or heat build up). This is pretty similar to some of the different type of EVE mechanics and if pushed in a corner this is what we need to hold the line for. Do 4 things and don't do 1 thing and we've got some solid progress. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1445	Posted - 2015.01.04 08:03:00 - [1176] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Meee One wrote: As a sidenote. Rattati did say they were going to try to make a mass based inertia system. Which means logistics should be second only to scouts in terms of speed and stamina/stamina regen. But that also means any eHP mods are going to have a crippling effect on logistics speed,but assaults it'll barely scratch. So the most expensive suit in the game will probably have its strafe be sub par,because 'logistics shouldn't be able to survive'. As well as have crippling penalties to speed,which were actually meant to hurt scouts,because 'logistics shouldn't be able to survive'. That's if the rules are applied fairly. Remember how he was willing (and almost eager) to nerf logistics speed while simultaneously buffing assault eHP and slots with 0 speed reduction? That alone showed that logistics and assault are immune to the words 'fair' or 'balanced'. The latter receiving the favoritism. Something tells me logistics will still be disproportionately slow with low eHP. And new speed penalties (on eHP mods) will push the class further to extinction. Which is why BW was so readily accepted,because they're about to royally f* the class up. So they force anyone wanting to use equipment to stay in an even slower low eHP suit. My future predicting powers say you're going to see 400-500 eHP logistics moving as fast as sentinels. Or eHP stacked logistics moving slower than sentinels. Assaults will be moving 1% slower,maybe. Scouts will be unphased. And sentinels will still be fat. Brace for more heavy-logi QQ than ever before! This could all be made so much simpler. 1) Have both Logi & Assaults have the same suit stats and high/low slots. Adjust CPU / PG for outlier slot shifts. 2) Add a moderate amount of CPU to the Cal Logi and either a sidearm or 4th equipment slot. At this point I don't care which one - I can make both work fine. (I would probably prefer the sidearm option). 3) Give a second equipment option bonus to all logi suits so you've got a bigger range of options or just give everyone a different flavor of reptool bonus on top of their current bonus (range, intensity, etc). 4) Cut the price of equipment dramatically. 5) Don't nerf the rep tools. If you add a capacitor or heat mechanic give the logi's a massive role bonus to it's use (like 200% cap or heat build up). This is pretty similar to some of the different type of EVE mechanics and if pushed in a corner this is what we need to hold the line for. Do 4 things and don't do 1 thing and we've got some solid progress. I like your suggestions,but i already know the answers. 1)Slayer logistics QQ -truth be told logistics is about 100x more valuable than assaults so instead of trying to make assaults more appealing with fair and balanced changes,they'd rather black logistics eye an knock out a few teeth to make assaults look better by comparison. -will never happen because logistics isn't favored like assaults 2)You forgot +1 equipment at basic. -cal logistics actually have the same equipment as the cal scout,yet it cost the logistics base stats and a weapon. -will be ignored because logistics isn't favored like assaults 3)Or give half bonuses to all equipment,and 100% to racial. -This way any logistics will be better with any equipment than any other suit. -will be ignored because logistics isn't favored like assaults,or even worse it'll be so half-assed it becomes too confusing to deal with 4)This should be obvious seeing as a PRO rep tool can't outrep a BASIC weapon. -Full PRO equipment is almost if not more expensive as a full PRO weapon (old variation prices). -So logistics has to foot the bill for a weapon and equipment as expensive as a main weapon,not sidearm,main...logistics aren't commandos FFS so these costs make 0 sense. -will be ignored because logistics isn't favored like assaults,and CCP thinks it's fine that the easiest killed suit in the game also happens to be the most expensive (which just so happens to defy any normal or rational gaming logic) 5)The one and only tooth left in logistics badly beaten head are the rep tools. -Scanners got insane cooldowns,uplinks got insane uptimes and low spawns,nanos received a dramatic cluster reduction without improved performance,and yes even rep tools were nerfed in range and rep amount. -Well,there was one equipment that was buffed,the injector,but only after** assault users said they use it... It wasn't buffed for logistics it was buffed for assaults,sad isn't it? -As long as logistics out shines assaults at anything (even their own role ) you can expect CCP to nerf that too,so i fully expect some imbecile with access to will do exactly that...if not sooner then later Assaults are so favored they can get equipment buffed on a whim. And players complain there aren't enough medics on the field.(because CCP ignores the actual medics and listens to the WP whores) Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 246	Posted - 2015.01.04 08:22:00 - [1177] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching. We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF. Especially since there are some simple quality of life changes that could happen easily and don't really require extensive balance passes such as fixing the messed up slot progression. Maybe the issue now is that there are no logi tourists left ( or very few ) and that those that are left are either very good to ok at the role. This probably translates as logis, in some respects, that get very few kills but lots of WP's BECAUSE they understand the role and know how to fit the suits to get the best out of the role. Therefore placing fairly high on the leaderboard and therefore upsetting some of the misplaced epeen of the slayer mindset ? This then results in threads asking for nerfs to logi gameplay. The issue perhaps is the perception as a logi as a WP *****/leech who contributes little in the way of slaying and objective capture. An absurd notion for even the staunchest logi hater that flies in the face of some of the more obvious cons of running a logi suit in a slayer environment yet will gladly accept the benefits without question. Now I am not saying everyone thinks this way, in fact most decent squads are looking for logis for reps, uplinks, hives and scans. Which shows that people understand that logis are a force multiplier. It should be a symbiotic relationship that benefits all players and in most cases it is. Having a logi in squad IS a massive benefit for all in the squad and the team. It does mean that the logis weapon is not always drawn and that they need some protection BUT they can rez you, rep you when hurt, provide spawn points and give you ammo. Seems like a good idea to me and a role I enjoy. Occasionally you will run into extreme examples of logi gameplay. Obviously the 1000+ HP heavy and several logis repping it and each other and also the most recent one the tanked min assault with logi support. However in each case there are several disadvantages and several ways of dealing with this none of which I am going to bother explaining as anyone with half a brain can figure out. A logi should be the one thing a good squad needs as much as the other suits need weapons, not a necessity but beneficial. Some people will not be happy until the logi is castrated completely but will be the first to moan there is no one to rep, rez, drop ammo and provide spawns in game. Go figure !!!! Anyway rambled on enough, just my 2isk. I'm still seeing the tourists abound, especially in ambush. BushLogis, it seems to me, are doing the most to reinforce the "Logis are WP whores" notion since they primarily ONLY rep or pitch links. As the matches are short and focused on killing those end of match leaderboards that list Logis in the top spots with or over good slayers create the easily distorted perception Logistics is ezmode. I've quietly sighed to myself many times while squadded with some random who decides to randomly run a beam then spend the next 7 minutes crowing about their WP take as they do NOTHING besides heavyblob. I've got to be honest here, I have been known to go solo and logi in ambush but quite I often I will solo in all game modes just to see if I can stay alive and still support. I feel dirty now but in my defence it is with support in mind and not to brag about WP whoring. I must be a little mad as I often prefer to go solo, if I can get in a squad that's easy going then it's cool. But every night I burn. Screaming the animal scream. Every night I burn. Dreaming the crow-black dream
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1450	Posted - 2015.01.05 10:15:00 - [1178] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching. We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF. Especially since there are some simple quality of life changes that could happen easily and don't really require extensive balance passes such as fixing the messed up slot progression. Maybe the issue now is that there are no logi tourists left ( or very few ) and that those that are left are either very good to ok at the role. This probably translates as logis, in some respects, that get very few kills but lots of WP's BECAUSE they understand the role and know how to fit the suits to get the best out of the role. Therefore placing fairly high on the leaderboard and therefore upsetting some of the misplaced epeen of the slayer mindset ? This then results in threads asking for nerfs to logi gameplay. The issue perhaps is the perception as a logi as a WP *****/leech who contributes little in the way of slaying and objective capture. An absurd notion for even the staunchest logi hater that flies in the face of some of the more obvious cons of running a logi suit in a slayer environment yet will gladly accept the benefits without question. Now I am not saying everyone thinks this way, in fact most decent squads are looking for logis for reps, uplinks, hives and scans. Which shows that people understand that logis are a force multiplier. It should be a symbiotic relationship that benefits all players and in most cases it is. Having a logi in squad IS a massive benefit for all in the squad and the team. It does mean that the logis weapon is not always drawn and that they need some protection BUT they can rez you, rep you when hurt, provide spawn points and give you ammo. Seems like a good idea to me and a role I enjoy. Occasionally you will run into extreme examples of logi gameplay. Obviously the 1000+ HP heavy and several logis repping it and each other and also the most recent one the tanked min assault with logi support. However in each case there are several disadvantages and several ways of dealing with this none of which I am going to bother explaining as anyone with half a brain can figure out. A logi should be the one thing a good squad needs as much as the other suits need weapons, not a necessity but beneficial. Some people will not be happy until the logi is castrated completely but will be the first to moan there is no one to rep, rez, drop ammo and provide spawns in game. Go figure !!!! Anyway rambled on enough, just my 2isk. I'm still seeing the tourists abound, especially in ambush. BushLogis, it seems to me, are doing the most to reinforce the "Logis are WP whores" notion since they primarily ONLY rep or pitch links. As the matches are short and focused on killing those end of match leaderboards that list Logis in the top spots with or over good slayers create the easily distorted perception Logistics is ezmode. I've quietly sighed to myself many times while squadded with some random who decides to randomly run a beam then spend the next 7 minutes crowing about their WP take as they do NOTHING besides heavyblob. I've got to be honest here, I have been known to go solo and logi in ambush but quite I often I will solo in all game modes just to see if I can stay alive and still support. I feel dirty now but in my defence it is with support in mind and not to brag about WP whoring. I must be a little mad as I often prefer to go solo, if I can get in a squad that's easy going then it's cool. Meh,i solo too. IDC how posers try ro make me look,my skills speak for themselves. It's just hard to frequently find a squad of reasonably skilled players. I'm not asking for 100% victory,but at least every 1 of 5. That might just be my experience though. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 712	Posted - 2015.01.06 18:11:00 - [1179] - Quote Meee One wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Meee One wrote: As a sidenote. Rattati did say they were going to try to make a mass based inertia system. Which means logistics should be second only to scouts in terms of speed and stamina/stamina regen. But that also means any eHP mods are going to have a crippling effect on logistics speed,but assaults it'll barely scratch. So the most expensive suit in the game will probably have its strafe be sub par,because 'logistics shouldn't be able to survive'. As well as have crippling penalties to speed,which were actually meant to hurt scouts,because 'logistics shouldn't be able to survive'. That's if the rules are applied fairly. Remember how he was willing (and almost eager) to nerf logistics speed while simultaneously buffing assault eHP and slots with 0 speed reduction? That alone showed that logistics and assault are immune to the words 'fair' or 'balanced'. The latter receiving the favoritism. Something tells me logistics will still be disproportionately slow with low eHP. And new speed penalties (on eHP mods) will push the class further to extinction. Which is why BW was so readily accepted,because they're about to royally f* the class up. So they force anyone wanting to use equipment to stay in an even slower low eHP suit. My future predicting powers say you're going to see 400-500 eHP logistics moving as fast as sentinels. Or eHP stacked logistics moving slower than sentinels. Assaults will be moving 1% slower,maybe. Scouts will be unphased. And sentinels will still be fat. Brace for more heavy-logi QQ than ever before! This could all be made so much simpler. 1) Have both Logi & Assaults have the same suit stats and high/low slots. Adjust CPU / PG for outlier slot shifts. 2) Add a moderate amount of CPU to the Cal Logi and either a sidearm or 4th equipment slot. At this point I don't care which one - I can make both work fine. (I would probably prefer the sidearm option). 3) Give a second equipment option bonus to all logi suits so you've got a bigger range of options or just give everyone a different flavor of reptool bonus on top of their current bonus (range, intensity, etc). 4) Cut the price of equipment dramatically. 5) Don't nerf the rep tools. If you add a capacitor or heat mechanic give the logi's a massive role bonus to it's use (like 200% cap or heat build up). This is pretty similar to some of the different type of EVE mechanics and if pushed in a corner this is what we need to hold the line for. Do 4 things and don't do 1 thing and we've got some solid progress. I like your suggestions,but i already know the answers. 1)Slayer logistics QQ -truth be told logistics is about 100x more valuable than assaults so instead of trying to make assaults more appealing with fair and balanced changes,they'd rather black logistics eye an knock out a few teeth to make assaults look better by comparison. -will never happen because logistics isn't favored like assaults 2)You forgot +1 equipment at basic. -cal logistics actually have the same equipment as the cal scout,yet it cost the logistics base stats and a weapon. -will be ignored because logistics isn't favored like assaults 3)Or give half bonuses to all equipment,and 100% to racial. -This way any logistics will be better with any equipment than any other suit. -will be ignored because logistics isn't favored like assaults,or even worse it'll be so half-assed it becomes too confusing to deal with 4)This should be obvious seeing as a PRO rep tool can't outrep a BASIC weapon. -Full PRO equipment is almost if not more expensive as a full PRO weapon (old variation prices). -So logistics has to foot the bill for a weapon and equipment as expensive as a main weapon,not sidearm,main...logistics aren't commandos FFS so these costs make 0 sense. -will be ignored because logistics isn't favored like assaults,and CCP thinks it's fine that the easiest killed suit in the game also happens to be the most expensive (which just so happens to defy any normal or rational gaming logic) 5)The one and only tooth left in logistics badly beaten head are the rep tools. -Scanners got insane cooldowns,uplinks got insane uptimes and low spawns,nanos received a dramatic cluster reduction without improved performance,and yes even rep tools were nerfed in range and rep amount. -Well,there was one equipment that was buffed,the injector,but only after** assault users said they use it... It wasn't buffed for logistics it was buffed for assaults,sad isn't it? -As long as logistics out shines assaults at anything (even their own role ) you can expect CCP to nerf that too,so i fully expect some imbecile with access to will do exactly that...if not sooner then later Assaults are so favored they can get equipment buffed on a whim. And players complain there aren't enough medics on the field.(because CCP ignores the actual medics and listens to the WP whores) I wish I could like this more. Many of my frustrations live in your words and though i am saddened because I did not write them I am pleased that you are. I don't often see things the same way, but the raw feeling of disenfranchisement is real. It takes some time for me to cool down and look at it in a patient and understanding light.... and then I just get mad again ;) A few things need to change, I am faithful, but not hopeful. Hope kills. Faith endures. I await news from Cross and SirManBoy. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 699	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:17:00 - [1180] - Quote building... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 699	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:18:00 - [1181] - Quote building.... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 699	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:19:00 - [1182] - Quote building...... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 700	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:20:00 - [1183] - Quote buuuuiiiillldiiiinng........ Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 700	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:21:00 - [1184] - Quote ...buuuiiiilllllddiiiiiinnnggggg........ Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 700	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:23:00 - [1185] - Quote jesus christ. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 700	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:24:00 - [1186] - Quote hammers banging, powersaw squealing Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 700	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:43:00 - [1187] - Quote DONE! Page 60, ready for use!! If you'd have told me that it'd be 4+ months, 3+ patches and fixes, 60 pages and we'd still be waiting for basic worthwhile buffs I'd have said...... yeah, you're probably right. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 701	Posted - 2015.01.07 20:32:00 - [1188] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching. We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF. Especially since there are some simple quality of life changes that could happen easily and don't really require extensive balance passes such as fixing the messed up slot progression. Maybe the issue now is that there are no logi tourists left ( or very few ) and that those that are left are either very good to ok at the role. This probably translates as logis, in some respects, that get very few kills but lots of WP's BECAUSE they understand the role and know how to fit the suits to get the best out of the role. Therefore placing fairly high on the leaderboard and therefore upsetting some of the misplaced epeen of the slayer mindset ? This then results in threads asking for nerfs to logi gameplay. The issue perhaps is the perception as a logi as a WP *****/leech who contributes little in the way of slaying and objective capture. An absurd notion for even the staunchest logi hater that flies in the face of some of the more obvious cons of running a logi suit in a slayer environment yet will gladly accept the benefits without question. Now I am not saying everyone thinks this way, in fact most decent squads are looking for logis for reps, uplinks, hives and scans. Which shows that people understand that logis are a force multiplier. It should be a symbiotic relationship that benefits all players and in most cases it is. Having a logi in squad IS a massive benefit for all in the squad and the team. It does mean that the logis weapon is not always drawn and that they need some protection BUT they can rez you, rep you when hurt, provide spawn points and give you ammo. Seems like a good idea to me and a role I enjoy. Occasionally you will run into extreme examples of logi gameplay. Obviously the 1000+ HP heavy and several logis repping it and each other and also the most recent one the tanked min assault with logi support. However in each case there are several disadvantages and several ways of dealing with this none of which I am going to bother explaining as anyone with half a brain can figure out. A logi should be the one thing a good squad needs as much as the other suits need weapons, not a necessity but beneficial. Some people will not be happy until the logi is castrated completely but will be the first to moan there is no one to rep, rez, drop ammo and provide spawns in game. Go figure !!!! Anyway rambled on enough, just my 2isk. I'm still seeing the tourists abound, especially in ambush. BushLogis, it seems to me, are doing the most to reinforce the "Logis are WP whores" notion since they primarily ONLY rep or pitch links. As the matches are short and focused on killing those end of match leaderboards that list Logis in the top spots with or over good slayers create the easily distorted perception Logistics is ezmode. I've quietly sighed to myself many times while squadded with some random who decides to randomly run a beam then spend the next 7 minutes crowing about their WP take as they do NOTHING besides heavyblob. I've got to be honest here, I have been known to go solo and logi in ambush but quite I often I will solo in all game modes just to see if I can stay alive and still support. I feel dirty now but in my defence it is with support in mind and not to brag about WP whoring. I must be a little mad as I often prefer to go solo, if I can get in a squad that's easy going then it's cool. Nothing to feel dirty about, brah. Running solo (RandomBlueBerryTheory, I call it) as a Logi can teach you a lot about what goes on that you wouldn't ever be exposed to were you anchored to a fatty. Things like Team Support vs Squad Support, for starters. Its not always a bad thing, running solo. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1465	Posted - 2015.01.11 23:16:00 - [1189] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: DONE! Page 60, ready for use!! If you'd have told me that it'd be 4+ months, 3+ patches and fixes, 60 pages and we'd still be waiting for basic worthwhile buffs I'd have said...... yeah, you're probably right. Oh logistics can get a 2% buff,it'll just cost 50%. Assaults on the other hand can get a 300% buff fo' free. The struggle is real. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1465	Posted - 2015.01.11 23:17:00 - [1190] - Quote Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. I still like this idea. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.

Zindorak Nyain Chan General Tso's Alliance 1625	Posted - 2015.01.11 23:34:00 - [1191] - Quote Uplinks have heavy fitting costs lower them maybe Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Give me da iskiez Gk0 Scout yay :)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 5109	Posted - 2015.01.12 00:23:00 - [1192] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Especially since there are some simple quality of life changes that could happen easily and don't really require extensive balance passes such as fixing the messed up slot progression. Maybe the issue now is that there are no logi tourists left ( or very few ) and that those that are left are either very good to ok at the role. This probably translates as logis, in some respects, that get very few kills but lots of WP's BECAUSE they understand the role and know how to fit the suits to get the best out of the role. Therefore placing fairly high on the leaderboard and therefore upsetting some of the misplaced epeen of the slayer mindset ? This then results in threads asking for nerfs to logi gameplay. The issue perhaps is the perception as a logi as a WP *****/leech who contributes little in the way of slaying and objective capture. An absurd notion for even the staunchest logi hater that flies in the face of some of the more obvious cons of running a logi suit in a slayer environment yet will gladly accept the benefits without question. Now I am not saying everyone thinks this way, in fact most decent squads are looking for logis for reps, uplinks, hives and scans. Which shows that people understand that logis are a force multiplier. It should be a symbiotic relationship that benefits all players and in most cases it is. Having a logi in squad IS a massive benefit for all in the squad and the team. It does mean that the logis weapon is not always drawn and that they need some protection BUT they can rez you, rep you when hurt, provide spawn points and give you ammo. Seems like a good idea to me and a role I enjoy. Occasionally you will run into extreme examples of logi gameplay. Obviously the 1000+ HP heavy and several logis repping it and each other and also the most recent one the tanked min assault with logi support. However in each case there are several disadvantages and several ways of dealing with this none of which I am going to bother explaining as anyone with half a brain can figure out. A logi should be the one thing a good squad needs as much as the other suits need weapons, not a necessity but beneficial. Some people will not be happy until the logi is castrated completely but will be the first to moan there is no one to rep, rez, drop ammo and provide spawns in game. Go figure !!!! Anyway rambled on enough, just my 2isk. I'm still seeing the tourists abound, especially in ambush. BushLogis, it seems to me, are doing the most to reinforce the "Logis are WP whores" notion since they primarily ONLY rep or pitch links. As the matches are short and focused on killing those end of match leaderboards that list Logis in the top spots with or over good slayers create the easily distorted perception Logistics is ezmode. I've quietly sighed to myself many times while squadded with some random who decides to randomly run a beam then spend the next 7 minutes crowing about their WP take as they do NOTHING besides heavyblob. I've got to be honest here, I have been known to go solo and logi in ambush but quite I often I will solo in all game modes just to see if I can stay alive and still support. I feel dirty now but in my defence it is with support in mind and not to brag about WP whoring. I must be a little mad as I often prefer to go solo, if I can get in a squad that's easy going then it's cool. Nothing to feel dirty about, brah. Running solo (RandomBlueBerryTheory, I call it) as a Logi can teach you a lot about what goes on that you wouldn't ever be exposed to were you anchored to a fatty. Things like Team Support vs Squad Support, for starters. Its not always a bad thing, running solo. Absolutely. One shouldn't necessarily balance things in the game with the solo player foremost in mind, but you can learn an awful lot playing that way and trying to support based on instinct and battle awareness alone. (Just make sure you have enough ISK to afford losing a few suits, lol. Solo logi isnt for "the poors", as Viktor might say) (The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1119	Posted - 2015.01.12 17:58:00 - [1193] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: [quote=Hawkings Greenback][quote=Pokey Dravon] I'm still seeing the tourists abound, especially in ambush. BushLogis, it seems to me, are doing the most to reinforce the "Logis are WP whores" notion since they primarily ONLY rep or pitch links. As the matches are short and focused on killing those end of match leaderboards that list Logis in the top spots with or over good slayers create the easily distorted perception Logistics is ezmode. I've quietly sighed to myself many times while squadded with some random who decides to randomly run a beam then spend the next 7 minutes crowing about their WP take as they do NOTHING besides heavyblob. I've got to be honest here, I have been known to go solo and logi in ambush but quite I often I will solo in all game modes just to see if I can stay alive and still support. I feel dirty now but in my defence it is with support in mind and not to brag about WP whoring. I must be a little mad as I often prefer to go solo, if I can get in a squad that's easy going then it's cool. Nothing to feel dirty about, brah. Running solo (RandomBlueBerryTheory, I call it) as a Logi can teach you a lot about what goes on that you wouldn't ever be exposed to were you anchored to a fatty. Things like Team Support vs Squad Support, for starters. Its not always a bad thing, running solo. If I end up at the top of the list, usually the only people who hate on me are my own team members, calling me a WP ****. Never mind that yes I killed less, but I deprived them of X clones/kills by doing my job correctly. Yes, I put uplinks in areas that you could spawn in safely and flood the objective instead of running solo across open ground. Yes, I went 0/3 and you went 23/1 and I'm above you on that list, but you didn't do that alone. No one is the solo master here. I'm only good at my job when I have great soldiers at my back. When all of us don't come together, I end up at 0/7 and you end up at 16/11. It's a relationship, not an 'out do you'. But when I'm singled out, by myself, and some thirsty redberry thinks I'm easy pickings, it shouldn't be on me that you didn't bother to strafe, bother with cover, or consider that I too spent skills in weapon proficiency. It shouldn't be gasp/anger worthy that I, a soldier on the field, was able to encounter you with the same tactics despite being a dirty, dirty logi. Also, it's a big misconception that because you last saw me as a logi that that is all I'm doing on the field. It's like people forget I too have the option to switch suits to better serve me depending on the situation. I'm also proto AV and can really rake in the points taking down vehicles/installations. Do I like those that use my suit for the slots and stack dmg mods and armor plates? Hate them. Have a seen that many? Not really. Since the rise of the scouts, I saw more scouts repping than logi's prior to the most recent release. I have seen quite a few logi snipers out there, stacking the plates. I like to tickle them with my knives. Do I think nerfing the suit will fix it? Nope. You're just going to chase them into the next best thing. I don't fair well in ambush which is why I force myself to do so once in a while. However, I have stopped bringing uplinks into ambushes. I know a LOT of roles do so, for the massive points, but I have never been in an ambush where my links weren't used against me. My uplink always ends up being camped and I refuse to let my BBs be cannon fodder to pad my WP. Even if I carried the same uplink to 'move' the one deployed, I am too busy worrying about my survival to remember to move it in time or at all. Being in ambush and running in only starter fits has really upped my gun game tho :) Well...when I'm not being absolutely murderstomped and camped on someone else's uplink. Knights of Ender Director* Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 5111	Posted - 2015.01.12 21:19:00 - [1194] - Quote IDK, I do ambush a fair amount so I can play with laz0rs and I find that if you play your cards right, uplinks can be super effective and very profitable. The latter part I suspect is probably due to the belief that uplinks are not that helpful so few actual logi's do it (and that we tend to hate ambush in general, it seems) All the blueberries drop uplinks at the initial spawn point like idiots, or at best somewhere at the periphery of the blob, so what I do is take a nice fast/sneaky Dragonfly scout well off to the side and put them somewhere that can't be camped really easily.... ladder-accesible rooftops are are favorite, because I still have PTSD from the old tankbush days. Can't get an HAV up there! At worst it never gets used if my side is winning easily. At best it gives the team (and me) a nice safe spot to spawn after the initial wave wipes a lot of us out and a new front needs to be formed. (The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1122	Posted - 2015.01.12 22:01:00 - [1195] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: IDK, I do ambush a fair amount so I can play with laz0rs and I find that if you play your cards right, uplinks can be super effective and very profitable. The latter part I suspect is probably due to the belief that uplinks are not that helpful so few actual logi's do it (and that we tend to hate ambush in general, it seems) All the blueberries drop uplinks at the initial spawn point like idiots, or at best somewhere at the periphery of the blob, so what I do is take a nice fast/sneaky Dragonfly scout well off to the side and put them somewhere that can't be camped really easily.... ladder-accesible rooftops are are favorite, because I still have PTSD from the old tankbush days. Can't get an HAV up there! At worst it never gets used if my side is winning easily. At best it gives the team (and me) a nice safe spot to spawn after the initial wave wipes a lot of us out and a new front needs to be formed. I've tried this and it always back fired on me. I notice a lot of people who spawn on the default spawn and immediately lay one down to try and catch all the ones coming immediately after them. I used to use my dragonfly (which sadly can only lay down one hive now...) on the far corner. But I guess I've been the victim of too many bad matches. In those, I ended up being the only uplink left after we were bulldozed and inevitably camped. That being said, I haven't dropped an uplink in ambush for almost 8 months now... Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 5112	Posted - 2015.01.12 22:15:00 - [1196] - Quote lee corwood wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: IDK, I do ambush a fair amount so I can play with laz0rs and I find that if you play your cards right, uplinks can be super effective and very profitable. The latter part I suspect is probably due to the belief that uplinks are not that helpful so few actual logi's do it (and that we tend to hate ambush in general, it seems) All the blueberries drop uplinks at the initial spawn point like idiots, or at best somewhere at the periphery of the blob, so what I do is take a nice fast/sneaky Dragonfly scout well off to the side and put them somewhere that can't be camped really easily.... ladder-accesible rooftops are are favorite, because I still have PTSD from the old tankbush days. Can't get an HAV up there! At worst it never gets used if my side is winning easily. At best it gives the team (and me) a nice safe spot to spawn after the initial wave wipes a lot of us out and a new front needs to be formed. I've tried this and it always back fired on me. I notice a lot of people who spawn on the default spawn and immediately lay one down to try and catch all the ones coming immediately after them. I used to use my dragonfly (which sadly can only lay down one hive now...) on the far corner. But I guess I've been the victim of too many bad matches. In those, I ended up being the only uplink left after we were bulldozed and inevitably camped. That being said, I haven't dropped an uplink in ambush for almost 8 months now... Most times, if a smartly placed uplink gets camped, you would have gotten camped anyway regardless, IMO. No need to feel bad about it... it is spambush, after all. Everything and anything will get you camped or backfire eventually, lol. Also: No uplink will ever be worse than "smart" deploy. If nothing else at least you know where on the map you are going to be. (The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. 265	Posted - 2015.01.20 04:50:00 - [1197] - Quote Just gonna kick this up off page 6 I take it there is not much else to report ? But every night I burn. Screaming the animal scream. Every night I burn. Dreaming the crow-black dream
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1475	Posted - 2015.01.20 11:38:00 - [1198] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Just gonna kick this up off page 6 I take it there is not much else to report ? Here's a short summary from what i've seen. -logistics with it's lower eHP will still be slower than heavier tanked assaults. -Although stamina will be higher. -A PRO BP can still OHK any logistics. -an omnisoldier (shayz) suggested nerfing equipment by reducing its output but increasing its carried amount for all classes As a logistics purist i can easily see it as what it is,a horrible equipment destroying nerf disguised as a 'spam' solution. "Need 2 grenades? Let me throw down 2 hives." (one for each grenade) Cross is actually considering this nerf in the OP as a "good" thing for logistics,but it's actually a stealth buff for assaults. -multiple 'add a capacitor to rep tools' threads have popped up. These are from the same players that complained logistics were using their gun too much,and should be repping instead. Now that logistics is repping,they're mad about that,saying logistics takes no 'skill' and should have to shoot every now and then. Cross has apparently caved in to the whiny brats because he put forth an idea for a capacitor for rep tools,even though weapons can do 400% more damage than a tool can repair per second. -assaults are still the biggest drama queens to play the game,and still get catered to hand and foot. (surprise surprise...) These are the players that most often complain about BW and rep tool activation length. -logistics will still not be getting that well deserved equipment cost reduction. PRO equipment still pales in effect compared to basic weapons,yet costs say otherwise. [sarcasm] I wish you had to get a players permission to OHK them with KN like you have to with injectors amirite? [/sarcasm] -IMHO the recent changes to scanners could be seen as a buff. Keeping the little arrow is actually pretty significant. -Players are still trying to strip the Amarr logistics of its sidearm. They say 'buff' it's actually a hard nerf. -Nonlogistics users keep suggesting things that sound good in their own heads,but would actually be bad for logistics as a whole. See all the logistics based suggestions not posted ITT. (They're afraid of Meee!) That's about all i've seen. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 715	Posted - 2015.01.22 02:08:00 - [1199] - Quote Meee One wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Just gonna kick this up off page 6 I take it there is not much else to report ? Here's a short summary from what i've seen. -logistics with it's lower eHP will still be slower than heavier tanked assaults. -Although stamina will be higher. -A PRO BP can still OHK any logistics. -an omnisoldier (shayz) suggested nerfing equipment by reducing its output but increasing its carried amount for all classes As a logistics purist i can easily see it as what it is,a horrible equipment destroying nerf disguised as a 'spam' solution. "Need 2 grenades? Let me throw down 2 hives." (one for each grenade) Cross is actually considering this nerf in the OP as a "good" thing for logistics,but it's actually a stealth buff for assaults. -multiple 'add a capacitor to rep tools' threads have popped up. These are from the same players that complained logistics were using their gun too much,and should be repping instead. Now that logistics is repping,they're mad about that,saying logistics takes no 'skill' and should have to shoot every now and then. Cross has apparently caved in to the whiny brats because he put forth an idea for a capacitor for rep tools,even though weapons can do 400% more damage than a tool can repair per second. -assaults are still the biggest drama queens to play the game,and still get catered to hand and foot. (surprise surprise...) These are the players that most often complain about BW and rep tool activation length. -logistics will still not be getting that well deserved equipment cost reduction. PRO equipment still pales in effect compared to basic weapons,yet costs say otherwise. [sarcasm] I wish you had to get a players permission to OHK them with KN like you have to with injectors amirite? [/sarcasm] -IMHO the recent changes to scanners could be seen as a buff. Keeping the little arrow is actually pretty significant. -Players are still trying to strip the Amarr logistics of its sidearm. They say 'buff' it's actually a hard nerf. -Nonlogistics users keep suggesting things that sound good in their own heads,but would actually be bad for logistics as a whole. See all the logistics based suggestions not posted ITT. (They're afraid of Meee!) That's about all i've seen. Amen. It's a pretty good summation. While we have seen many new threads pop up about changes to the logistics class - mainly nerfs. We haven't seen an update from the OP Author in some time. Another CPM has posted that they are still working together and that he is still fighting the good fight for logis. (Cross, I worry - hope you are OK). But no more news than that. No feedback threads opening up for proposed changes yet.... time is an enemy in these discussions when replies are limited by hype, NDA, current events, absent voices. I ponder on the amalgamation of fixes we will see. I would like it to be role defining in a positive way. That there may be some strengths to running a Logi. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1478	Posted - 2015.01.22 10:57:00 - [1200] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Amen. It's a pretty good summation. While we have seen many new threads pop up about changes to the logistics class - mainly nerfs. We haven't seen an update from the OP Author in some time. Another CPM, SirManBoy, has posted that they are still working together and that he is still fighting the good fight for logis. (Cross, I worry - hope you are OK). But no more news than that. No feedback threads opening up for proposed changes yet.... time is an enemy in these discussions when replies are limited by hype, NDA, current events, absent voices. I ponder on the amalgamation of fixes we will see. I would like it to be role defining in a positive way. That there may be some strengths to running a Logi. NOT JUST: "YOU CAN HOLD 3 or More pieces of equipment!" Base stats blow in most cases. Give them something more. Increased walking/strafing speed, faster regens, something more. Speaking of equipment - Super expensive stuff. Drop the prices on that stuff! The idea to hold more equipment is good IFF (that means: If and only If - to those unfamiliar to math rules... i digress) the logi naturally just gets more/better equipment. Turning all regular gear in to special logi gear. I think that dividing the uplinks is ok, But Dividing Nano Hives is ridiculous when the hives barely last as is! We are talking a clip per hive.... maybe, and maybe not even that (sarcasm). A Logi's piece of equipment should blow away every other user's equipment. Enough so that a vocal squad would say to an assault or scout about to lay down a hive "don't drop that **** here, we have a logi". Any other suit running the supportive gear of a logi should be laughed at and shunned. No assault running a rep tool or a scout dropping a hive would be accepted in public. A logi's hive should glow brighter, be bigger, and refill at twice the rate with 4 times as much nanites per hive (exagerated? not really). It Should Be Ridiculous how great the equipment of a logi is. When not-a-logi a player should feel like they are tossing crap, very expensive crap, onto the battlefield. A polished turd of an uplink. A Brown banana of an allotek hive. Etc. While equipment does need tweaking, the equipment should be adequate but short lived (as it is now even with logi's) when used by all other classes. A scout has 2EQ slots (the logi-light) like the Amar logi, and can therefore out-logi the amarr with ease (the scout strafe is amazing). The bonuses should be so great that a even a 2 EQ logi (and honestly that needs adjusted to 3 and 4 for every race) should out do every bit of logi work that the scout could even attempt. The current logi bonuses are inadequate when only racially applied. Apply the bonuses universally and we begin to see what a basic unleveled logi should look like. (BTW - Caldari bonus is still tooooooo low). After we have raised the new basic logi class to the level proposed then we apply the racial bonuses AGAIN and you may begin to see what I'm a proper logi would look like in my mind. The Logi is to be a "force multiplier"...? When made out of 100.000+ isk paper that dies with each breeze on the battlefield my LOGI hands should reflect a godlike ability to resupply, repair, rally, revive, and reinforce; an ability that i was born to provide. IFF EQ is my bag... baby - MAKE IF FREAKING AWESOME in MY HANDS! What is this heresy?! You believe (as i do) that logistics should be the best with equipment? Are you insane? braces for equipment slots to be removed from logistics and given to assaults --- Assaults were buffed to crazy insane levels of OP to 'kill stuff'. Why can't logistics get the same in regards to equipment? Rep tools that can beat weapon DPS with insane ranges AND have multiple targets. Scanners that can scan nearly 100% of the time at insane ranges with insane accuracy. Hives that can refill 75% at 50m that last nearly forever. Uplinks with 0 spawn time and 75-100 spawns. RE/PE damage increase of 100-200% Injectors that refill ammo when you rez. All provided through logistics exclusive bonuses, of course. You can keep me slow,and you can keep me frail. But atleast all that sacrifice should be used to boost equipment. Hell,assaults sacrifice nothing and can out DPS a logistics that does. If anything,all power that would be used for survival should be redirected so a logistics can OUTREP an assaults DPS. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.

RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 716	Posted - 2015.01.22 21:19:00 - [1201] - Quote Pretty Much :) The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1144	Posted - 2015.01.22 22:46:00 - [1202] - Quote I've virtually quit using anything but my BPO or STD suits. It's just not worth bringing my a 223k proto suit or even my 83k advanced suit when I'm two shotted by a militia bolt pistol. And it's not even the weakness or the money that bothers me. It's the weakness + the money + the utter lack of value it gives me. I find that I perform pretty much the same with lower tier items with a better payout than I do with my more expensive suits. I'm not poor and I'm not rich. When I get a great squad who takes care of me, I'll throw that money down like nobody's business. Those guys took care of me, so hell yeah I'm going to bring out the Wyrikomi needles and Six Kin Rep tools and go negative this match. But I think I'm not an exception. I think most all skilled out logis out there have this same experience where it's just not worthwhile to pull out, period. I get flak all the time for not bringing out my best hives, my best rep tool and my best needle to every game. But all that PRO EQ 57,015 ISK (Not to mention the +57,690 ISK just for a suit that can fit the requirements)... 114,705 ISK (without any other mods) =/= automatically better performance for myself OR the team. There is no real incentive for me to want to use that more expensive gear when I have consistent proof that it doesn't actually DO better. And with BW even the number laid is not an advantage but a worrisome detriment without a BW meter. - "Better rep tools mean you turn a BB OP against incoming fire" - you've clearly never used a repair tool before - "Better injectors mean I can pick someone up to get immediately back in the fight" - so does my dirty bpo needle, because I don't pick someone up when a threat still exists. - "Better nanohives mean we don't have to depend on a supply depot" - actually it just means we both have to depend on a supply depot. My hives don't give you enough ammo to survive another war. It's enough to give you just a few clips (maybe one depending on how many of you there are) to survive to get to a depot. And when I'm out of hives we ALL get to travel to the supply depot so you can get more ammo and I can get more 'oh *** we're all out of ammo' ammo. -"Better uplinks mean" - nothing. Literally nothing. I've yet to see where 2-3 seconds meant the turn of a battle in anything except PC. The reality is, seconds mean nothing. Placement* means something. Coordination means something. 5-8 people all spawning on one uplink and taking a point by storm in mass is what makes uplinks valuable. Hell if anything, I've had my 7 second uplinks still last 15 due to all the server issues we're having. Until my EQ is made at all valuable, I fail to see what use it lends for me to bring it into the game. Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 716	Posted - 2015.01.22 23:11:00 - [1203] - Quote lee corwood wrote: I've virtually quit using anything but my BPO or STD suits. It's just not worth bringing my a 223k proto suit or even my 83k advanced suit when I'm two shotted by a militia bolt pistol. And it's not even the weakness or the money that bothers me. It's the weakness + the money + the utter lack of value it gives me. I find that I perform pretty much the same with lower tier items with a better payout than I do with my more expensive suits. I'm not poor and I'm not rich. When I get a great squad who takes care of me, I'll throw that money down like nobody's business. Those guys took care of me, so hell yeah I'm going to bring out the Wyrikomi needles and Six Kin Rep tools and go negative this match. I think you nailed the general feeling of being a logi right now. The weakness is not overcome by the efficiency of the equipment to gain WP without a solid team that can put a logi into the top 3 at match end. And the money is simply too much to sustain. - I get that most players cannot sustain full proto gear. Neither can a logi, but whats worse it that the cost for a logi is 2-3 times more expensive than 1 proto outfit of another class. I will often run BPO or ADV but with 1 proto tool and 1 ADV EQ for a decent match, but after loosing 2 I'm out. Back to BPO, where I dont see that in many of the players I am facing. - I'm the one bringing the BPO and APex out to play and die while my enemies and team mates can afford to play on in better fits. Weakness of stats is not helped enough with the benefit of the current racial bonuses. Or any other bonus to being a logi. Being paperthin must come with a benefit that makes the playstyle desirable, setting it appart from other roles. That is really lacking. Quote: But I think I'm not an exception. I think most all skilled out logis out there have this same experience where it's just not worthwhile to pull out, period. I get flak all the time for not bringing out my best hives, my best rep tool and my best needle to every game. But all that PRO EQ 57,015 ISK (Not to mention the +57,690 ISK just for a suit that can fit the requirements)... 114,705 ISK (without any other mods) =/= automatically better performance for myself OR the team. There is no real incentive for me to want to use that more expensive gear when I have consistent proof that it doesn't actually DO better. And with BW even the number laid is not an advantage but a worrisome detriment without a BW meter. Too True Quote: - "Better rep tools mean you turn a BB OP against incoming fire" - you've clearly never used a repair tool before - "Better injectors mean I can pick someone up to get immediately back in the fight" - so does my dirty bpo needle, because I don't pick someone up when a threat still exists. - "Better nanohives mean we don't have to depend on a supply depot" - actually it just means we both have to depend on a supply depot. My hives don't give you enough ammo to survive another war. It's enough to give you just a few clips (maybe one depending on how many of you there are) to survive to get to a depot. And when I'm out of hives we ALL get to travel to the supply depot so you can get more ammo and I can get more 'oh *** we're all out of ammo' ammo. -"Better uplinks mean" - nothing. Literally nothing. I've yet to see where 2-3 seconds meant the turn of a battle in anything except PC. The reality is, seconds mean nothing. Placement* means something. Coordination means something. 5-8 people all spawning on one uplink and taking a point by storm in mass is what makes uplinks valuable. Hell if anything, I've had my 7 second uplinks still last 15 due to all the server issues we're having. Until my EQ is made at all valuable, I fail to see what use it lends for me to bring it into the game. All valid responses to the common arguments of those against logi progression. The equipment nerf should not have affected logis. The racial bonuses should have increased to accommodate the drop in value, to restoring them to their original levels at lvl 1 of any logi race. Then increasing them beyond that point to an even greater standard than we currently have. Fight on, and look forward the dawn of a new day when Logis will be seen, respected, and even revered for their assistance in battles. For I depend on my fellow mercs, they depend on me, and right now we are not strong enough to do that job effectively. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1479	Posted - 2015.01.23 21:42:00 - [1204] - Quote The main problem IMHO is that everyone ties 'wp whores','spammers' and 'logistics' together. Yet equipment is to blame. For example: -let's say a merc has 1000 armor -and a tool has 100 hp/s reps (rounded for easy math) That's 10 ticks worth of WP. And it's actually a low amount vs weapon DPS. What if a tool had 200? That's 5 ticks. Effectively cutting 'wp whoring' in half. If tools were buffed at all levels by x2 it would aid new players be relevant,older players support well,and allies survive longer. While scaling WP to accomidate this new change. Currently you can almost reach ADV tools reps with suit modules alone,and you can breeze pass Basic,that's insane and removes the need for external support. And Pro costs too much to run consecutively. So logistics can choose to be screwed over 1 of 2 ways,have a garbage tool or have an expensive tool. Newer logistics can't foot that kind of bill all the time. My solution to spam? Increase the cluster amount of hives by x4-5,and amount refilled to 50% at basic,75% at ADV and up to 90% at Pro. Increase amount repped by triage hives by 50-60 hp/s. Straight up double hybrids refill rate,minimum. Increase carried amount by 5. (10 works too ) Then cut the amount deployed by 1. Then,add a Cal logistics exclusive of +1 deployed hive. All logistics would have effective hives,but Cal logistics could deploy more of them. I actually like shayz' idea about uplinks. All increases should be given through logistics exclusive bonuses ,of course. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 717	Posted - 2015.01.23 22:44:00 - [1205] - Quote Meee One wrote: The main problem IMHO is that everyone ties 'wp whores','spammers' and 'logistics' together. Yet equipment is to blame. For example: -let's say a merc has 1000 armor -and a tool has 100 hp/s reps (rounded for easy math) That's 10 ticks worth of WP. And it's actually a low amount vs weapon DPS. What if a tool had 200? That's 5 ticks. Effectively cutting 'wp whoring' in half. If tools were buffed at all levels by x2 it would aid new players be relevant,older players support well,and allies survive longer. While scaling WP to accomidate this new change. Currently you can almost reach ADV tools reps with suit modules alone,and you can breeze pass Basic,that's insane and removes the need for external support. And Pro costs too much to run consecutively. So logistics can choose to be screwed over 1 of 2 ways,have a garbage tool or have an expensive tool. Newer logistics can't foot that kind of bill all the time. My solution to spam? Increase the cluster amount of hives by x4-5,and amount refilled to 50% at basic,75% at ADV and up to 90% at Pro. Increase amount repped by triage hives by 50-60 hp/s. Straight up double hybrids refill rate,minimum. Increase carried amount by 5. (10 works too ) Then cut the amount deployed by 1. Then,add a Cal logistics exclusive of +1 deployed hive. All logistics would have effective hives,but Cal logistics could deploy more of them and rival the other logistics in value.(Nanite + refill bonuses would stack.) I actually like shayz' idea about uplinks. All increases should be given through logistics exclusive bonuses ,of course. I can get behind that. At one point I re-did some of the stats from the main page and made adjustments. CCP always likes the number prefilled, cuts down on their work. I might go to do that again and resubmit my dropsuit, equipment, and bonus changes. Don't get me wrong - i love that the community has come together on this, but the document hasn't updated. I believe that What CCP has now is what was submitted and updated in the beginning. Maybe they have already made their decisions, but maybe not. Without any updates I will err on the side of continuing to push and provide numbers. QUESTION I wonder: Most of the bonuses for items in this game are given at a set amount of X% per level. In the coding do you know if each level is individually populated like: lvl1: x% lvl2: x% lvl3: x % lvl4: x% lvl5: x % or is there just a single line of "increases by x% per lvl"? Can Anyone answer? This would help me to build a model where lvl 1 is y% and lvl 2-5 are x%. Allowing that first step as a logi to make all equipment use automatically better, then adding a scaled bonus per racial level. Because I want that first step in the increased bonus to using equipment to make the player notice it immediately. Then have them appreciate the progressive smaller bonuses of leveling to the max for improved performance. If not the bonuses in each leveled step may seem like too much or not enough... The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Mordecai Snake Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 93	Posted - 2015.01.24 00:39:00 - [1206] - Quote What if triage points were only rewarded once the armor hits 100%? Like the opposite of a kill.
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1218	Posted - 2015.01.24 01:10:00 - [1207] - Quote Mordecai Snake wrote: What if triage points were only rewarded once the armor hits 100%? Like the opposite of a kill. Currently the Triage points are awarded only if the suit you are repping has done at least some damage to an enemy. The friendly you are repping may have taken a stray Core Locus, and all that repping time would be wasted, and there would be much bitching on the forums. The cool down via a capacitor on rep tools is the best idea, imho. Allow Guradian points and such, kill assists as well if an OB is being dropped, but no more 3k WP games just from holding R1. I get over 2k WP in PC's occasionally and the first thought from most is "rep tool ***", when I have actually been Logi'ing the ** out of my team. So there can still be a balance. Unfortunately, CCP and balance are initially like oil and water. Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 717	Posted - 2015.01.24 03:00:00 - [1208] - Quote What do I get from a capacitor? a limited time to heal? or is it more like an overdrive double or tripling my reps for a limited time? A logi is already gimped enough, let us not gimp them further Booby and Mordecai. You know the arguments about capacitors, but if we need to rehash them we can cut and paste again. Battles are too varied to establish a set time for healing - though some may stay 'leashed' far to often it is not standard of being a logi. Look at the entire class and the many actions it takes, then take another stab at what you may see as WP disparity. I have had great logi games where I did hit the top of the charts, that was with a well coordinated team. Most often those high WP matches are a rarity and not the established experience of all logis. They are the outliers, the 5%. If we keep working this through we must ask: Do we start adding capacitors to all suits then? And what would be their purpose? You see, If we have one capacitor it must be used on other things as well, will it: Limit uplink spawning to 1 per x seconds? Limit firing times for weapons to a x shots withing x seconds? Where will it end? Don't get me wrong, capacitors work well in Eve and create a dynamic battle system. I can see them on vehicles as some have mentioned, but what bonus do the infantry get from such things? If they someday have capacitors I hope it will be for the supersoldier modules we've talked about in the past. Like increasing damage for a certain amount of time or sprint speed, but then lowering that boosted stat for the time it was down. I could see a super rep tool variant that used a capacitor or supper rep module that used a capacitor, but it should not be the norm. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 717	Posted - 2015.01.24 03:03:00 - [1209] - Quote Mordecai Snake wrote: What if triage points were only rewarded once the armor hits 100%? Like the opposite of a kill. No. Because habitually they don't make it to full health before termination. Just as damaging but not killing the enemy will award assist points if they are killed by another player, a logi receives rep points for assisting the health of a merc. But all that goes away with a 100% needle. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1220	Posted - 2015.01.24 03:06:00 - [1210] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Mordecai Snake wrote: What if triage points were only rewarded once the armor hits 100%? Like the opposite of a kill. No. Because habitually they don't make it to full health before termination. Just as damaging but not killing the enemy will award assist points if they are killed by another player, a logi receives rep points for assisting the health of a merc. But all that goes away with a 100% needle. HUGE pet peeve of mine. I get punished for my 100% revives via warpoints. Less WP vs the Proto version, and less WP because I don't bust out the rep tool to top them off. Load of BS. Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7

RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 717	Posted - 2015.01.24 03:07:00 - [1211] - Quote Burried at the end of the last page, I would like this to be seen by some new eyes. QUESTION: Most of the bonuses for items in this game are given at a set amount of X% per level. In the coding does anyone know if each level is individually populated like: lvl1: x% lvl2: x% lvl3: x % lvl4: x% lvl5: x % or is there just a single line of "increases by x% per lvl"? The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1220	Posted - 2015.01.24 03:08:00 - [1212] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: What do I get from a capacitor? a limited time to heal? or is it more like an overdrive double or tripling my reps for a limited time? A logi is already gimped enough, let us not gimp them further Booby and Mordecai. You know the arguments about capacitors, but if we need to rehash them we can cut and paste again. Battles are too varied to establish a set time for healing - though some may stay 'leashed' far to often it is not standard of being a logi. Look at the entire class and the many actions it takes, then take another stab at what you may see as WP disparity. I have had great logi games where I did hit the top of the charts, that was with a well coordinated team. Most often those high WP matches are a rarity and not the established experience of all logis. They are the outliers, the 5%. If we keep working this through we must ask: Do we start adding capacitors to all suits then? And what would be their purpose? You see, If we have one capacitor it must be used on other things as well, will it: Limit uplink spawning to 1 per x seconds? Limit firing times for weapons to a x shots withing x seconds? Where will it end? Don't get me wrong, capacitors work well in Eve and create a dynamic battle system. I can see them on vehicles as some have mentioned, but what bonus do the infantry get from such things? If they someday have capacitors I hope it will be for the supersoldier modules we've talked about in the past. Like increasing damage for a certain amount of time or sprint speed, but then lowering that boosted stat for the time it was down. I could see a super rep tool variant that used a capacitor or supper rep module that used a capacitor, but it should not be the norm. I guess what I am trying to say, is that we need a point of diminishing returns in regards to WP from rep tools. I do not want them to cease in functioning via a capacitor. That would be a huge nerf to logis. It's the WP whoring we're trying to cure. Starting off with +25, and falling as low as 5WP before it cuts off is more of what I am looking for. Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1222	Posted - 2015.01.24 03:10:00 - [1213] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Mordecai Snake wrote: What if triage points were only rewarded once the armor hits 100%? Like the opposite of a kill. No. Because habitually they don't make it to full health before termination. Just as damaging but not killing the enemy will award assist points if they are killed by another player, a logi receives rep points for assisting the health of a merc. But all that goes away with a 100% needle. HUGE pet peeve of mine. I get punished for my 100% revives via warpoints. Less WP vs the Proto version, and less WP because I don't bust out the rep tool to top them off. Load of BS. ****, I'm going to quote myself. What if 100% revives negated a death count? Like flat out took away a kill, and saved a death. I bet a lot more folks would call for their friendly neighborhood Logi. Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 718	Posted - 2015.01.24 03:11:00 - [1214] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Mordecai Snake wrote: What if triage points were only rewarded once the armor hits 100%? Like the opposite of a kill. No. Because habitually they don't make it to full health before termination. Just as damaging but not killing the enemy will award assist points if they are killed by another player, a logi receives rep points for assisting the health of a merc. But all that goes away with a 100% needle. HUGE pet peeve of mine. I get punished for my 100% revives via warpoints. Less WP vs the Proto version, and less WP because I don't bust out the rep tool to top them off. Load of BS. Too true Booby, I am not a fan of such mechanics. Should there be a logic check perhaps? If someone has a repper then the WP is recalculated because we could have repped? Should it work instead over time and not instant? say, give 30% now and keep repping until it reaches the 90% hp heald level and give rep points along the way? How do you think it should be fixed? The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1222	Posted - 2015.01.24 03:17:00 - [1215] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Mordecai Snake wrote: What if triage points were only rewarded once the armor hits 100%? Like the opposite of a kill. No. Because habitually they don't make it to full health before termination. Just as damaging but not killing the enemy will award assist points if they are killed by another player, a logi receives rep points for assisting the health of a merc. But all that goes away with a 100% needle. HUGE pet peeve of mine. I get punished for my 100% revives via warpoints. Less WP vs the Proto version, and less WP because I don't bust out the rep tool to top them off. Load of BS. Too true Booby, I am not a fan of such mechanics. Should there be a logic check perhaps? If someone has a repper then the WP is recalculated because we could have repped? Should it work instead over time and not instant? say, give 30% now and keep repping until it reaches the 90% hp heald level and give rep points along the way? How do you think it should be fixed? Good question. It all comes down to what kind of math and patch type things can CCP do with their limited Dust staff? I think adding a 'Guardian' type award for needles, similar to Dropship pilots that get points for dropping off infantry, would go a long ways. If the friendly lives more than 30 seconds after the revive, you get a 'Savior' WP award, that scales with the type of needle you used. I don't think that would be too difficult to code? Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 718	Posted - 2015.01.24 03:18:00 - [1216] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: What do I get from a capacitor? a limited time to heal? or is it more like an overdrive double or tripling my reps for a limited time? A logi is already gimped enough, let us not gimp them further Booby and Mordecai. You know the arguments about capacitors, but if we need to rehash them we can cut and paste again. Battles are too varied to establish a set time for healing - though some may stay 'leashed' far to often it is not standard of being a logi. Look at the entire class and the many actions it takes, then take another stab at what you may see as WP disparity. I have had great logi games where I did hit the top of the charts, that was with a well coordinated team. Most often those high WP matches are a rarity and not the established experience of all logis. They are the outliers, the 5%. If we keep working this through we must ask: Do we start adding capacitors to all suits then? And what would be their purpose? You see, If we have one capacitor it must be used on other things as well, will it: Limit uplink spawning to 1 per x seconds? Limit firing times for weapons to a x shots withing x seconds? Where will it end? Don't get me wrong, capacitors work well in Eve and create a dynamic battle system. I can see them on vehicles as some have mentioned, but what bonus do the infantry get from such things? If they someday have capacitors I hope it will be for the supersoldier modules we've talked about in the past. Like increasing damage for a certain amount of time or sprint speed, but then lowering that boosted stat for the time it was down. I could see a super rep tool variant that used a capacitor or supper rep module that used a capacitor, but it should not be the norm. I guess what I am trying to say, is that we need a point of diminishing returns in regards to WP from rep tools. I do not want them to cease in functioning via a capacitor. That would be a huge nerf to logis. It's the WP whoring we're trying to cure. Starting off with +25, and falling as low as 5WP before it cuts off is more of what I am looking for. Ok, I see what you mean. The greedy part of me that has those games so rarely screams no, but we had a rep cap a while back... I know it was increased but I don't remeber it being removed. Are we also considering the other sources of WP like spawn uplinks? those are pretty bad too. The other part of me knows that the WP rewards are too high for things like guardian points. (and assists for that matter) IFF points were given as a percentage of health healed WP may change quite a bit... but which direction? The other option is to just lower the WP earned... but i am having so few good games I rarely make it to the middle of the charts - so that doesn't seem to solve the issue either. So a soft cap after X WP from repping? If we had to please just make it a high one. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 720	Posted - 2015.01.24 03:21:00 - [1217] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Good Stuff I like those kind of ideas for residual points. I think it speaks directly to the Logi work and how people want to be revived. It places the possibility of more points out there to be had to influence better revives. Dirty needle rezzing will still happen, but this can award good behavior. Solid Idea The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4029	Posted - 2015.01.28 09:43:00 - [1218] - Quote I leave you guys alone for one minute (well, okay, a good sight longer than that, blame work and look what I come back too! ...constructive discussion... am I still on the Dust boards? You LogiBros do my heart good o7 Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4029	Posted - 2015.01.28 09:48:00 - [1219] - Quote As a quick update, last word I have is that there will be some Logi love coming in the next hotfix which should be deployed (as I understand it) post patch. All things have been somewhat delayed due to the nature of multi-national holidays combined with coordinating two games on the same server + working with Sony QA (which streamlined or not still takes time). Now, having said that I am confident that after all the various changes to the game there will likely be room for further polish on Logis and equipment even after the changes. Room to really make them shine. But I am a firm believer in the iterative process and working with the community here so that is IMO all to the good. When the changes come please play test them and post your feedback (tagged with build etc) in this thread so we can craft the next step together Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4029	Posted - 2015.01.28 09:52:00 - [1220] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: This works for uplinks, but splitting up ammo is simply a bad idea. As it is it takes next to no time for 2-3 people to drain a proto hive, even with CalLogi bonuses. So I'd simply advocate increased max carry for hives. Yep, the nano bonus is pretty weak, and nanohives in general feel weak. I actually am being "sneaky" here to be totally blunt. I do want to see the changes outlined for hives go through, however it is my impression that it will cause ripples in how hives are employed generally and that those ripples will create a data trend that supports some things I have been saying for quite awhile now. Such as the need for polish on both the hives and the CalLogi racial. One other effect of all the changes would be that while hives would still hold value, they would hold an even greater weighted value in the hands of a Logi and that I believe is the proper course to take just as a LW holds more value in the hands of an Assault. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1149	Posted - 2015.01.28 12:04:00 - [1221] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: As a quick update, last word I have is that there will be some Logi love coming in the next hotfix which should be deployed (as I understand it) post patch. All things have been somewhat delayed due to the nature of multi-national holidays combined with coordinating two games on the same server + working with Sony QA (which streamlined or not still takes time). Now, having said that I am confident that after all the various changes to the game there will likely be room for further polish on Logis and equipment even after the changes. Room to really make them shine. But I am a firm believer in the iterative process and working with the community here so that is IMO all to the good. When the changes come please play test them and post your feedback (tagged with build etc) in this thread so we can craft the next step together Cheers, Cross blows dust off elgato Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 227	Posted - 2015.01.28 15:59:00 - [1222] - Quote From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. *Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!*
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 774	Posted - 2015.01.28 16:05:00 - [1223] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: As a quick update, last word I have is that there will be some Logi love coming in the next hotfix which should be deployed (as I understand it) post patch. All things have been somewhat delayed due to the nature of multi-national holidays combined with coordinating two games on the same server + working with Sony QA (which streamlined or not still takes time). Cheers, Cross squints in the darkness wtf? Is that....no, can't be.....Is that a light at the end of the tunnel? Why do I suddenly suspect it's on the front of a train? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 774	Posted - 2015.01.28 16:07:00 - [1224] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1262	Posted - 2015.01.28 19:20:00 - [1225] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though. Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1150	Posted - 2015.01.28 19:29:00 - [1226] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though. Now I have to try this. I've proto'd both suits but never tried to just fill my logi slots with hack mods. Be a cool video to show a video compare. - normal suit like a min assault - a std logi (sadly can't test this one now that I have a proto min logi) - a logi (with proto skills) - a logi (with proto skills) + 4 complex mods - a min scout (with proto skills) - a min scout (with proto skills) + 3 complex mods now I have a video project for tonight Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 725	Posted - 2015.01.28 21:56:00 - [1227] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I leave you guys alone for one minute (well, okay, a good sight longer than that, blame work and look what I come back too! ...constructive discussion... am I still on the Dust boards? You LogiBros do my heart good o7 Cross YAY! You're Back! Hope all is well. Welcome back The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Hawkings Greenback Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 278	Posted - 2015.01.28 23:54:00 - [1228] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though. The hack bonus going to the min scout was one of the reasons I went to that suit, well apart from occasionally knifing and RE'ing people. But yes the min logi still has a good bonus that most people tend to forget about, with most people concentrating on the rep bonus. The min logi is the most versatile out of all the logis and people don't really take advantage of that very often. But every night I burn. Screaming the animal scream. Every night I burn. Dreaming the crow-black dream
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1151	Posted - 2015.01.29 01:20:00 - [1229] - Quote lee corwood wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though. Now I have to try this. I've proto'd both suits but never tried to just fill my logi slots with hack mods. Be a cool video to show a video compare. - normal suit like a min assault - a std logi (sadly can't test this one now that I have a proto min logi) - a logi (with proto skills) - a logi (with proto skills) + 4 complex mods - a min scout (with proto skills) - a min scout (with proto skills) + 3 complex mods now I have a video project for tonight Well that was fun but also labor intensive. Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 779	Posted - 2015.01.29 18:57:00 - [1230] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though. ProMin w/4complex breakers IS fast, still, but it definitely isn't as fast as it used to be. ProMin w/o 4 complex breakers, also, is fast-ish but also isn't as fast as it used to be. "As fast as it used to be" being what I miss about my MinLogis hacking bonus. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1264	Posted - 2015.01.29 20:44:00 - [1231] - Quote lee corwood wrote: Well that was fun but also labor intensive. I'm sending you 5 million ISK when I get home tonight. That was awesome. Small tweak though. The Min Scout gets a native 10% bonus before the extra 25% from racial bonus, and 25% from hacking skill. So, it starts off with 35% instead of 25% as you have listed. Again, badass video! Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1264	Posted - 2015.01.29 20:50:00 - [1232] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though. ProMin w/4complex breakers IS fast, still, but it definitely isn't as fast as it used to be. ProMin w/o 4 complex breakers, also, is fast-ish but also isn't as fast as it used to be. "As fast as it used to be" being what I miss about my MinLogis hacking bonus. EDIT: And, yes of course, that it was the fastest possible hacking suit on the block. It's only 5% slower. Like the difference from Hacking 0 to Hacking I. The Min Scout just gets an even greater bonus, thus making the Logi feel way slower. Take a look at the video lee corwood posted. We're talking about 2 tenths, 5 one hundredths, and 2 one thousandths of a second at max skills on a Proto suit. That's nothing, even with the low TTK. Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 779	Posted - 2015.01.29 22:19:00 - [1233] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though. ProMin w/4complex breakers IS fast, still, but it definitely isn't as fast as it used to be. ProMin w/o 4 complex breakers, also, is fast-ish but also isn't as fast as it used to be. "As fast as it used to be" being what I miss about my MinLogis hacking bonus. EDIT: And, yes of course, that it was the fastest possible hacking suit on the block. It's only 5% slower. Like the difference from Hacking 0 to Hacking I. The Min Scout just gets an even greater bonus, thus making the Logi feel way slower. Take a look at the video lee corwood posted. We're talking about 2 tenths, 5 one hundredths, and 2 one thousandths of a second at max skills on a Proto suit. That's nothing, even with the low TTK. meh. You can talk about it that way and I'm glad somebody who had never done it (stacked some CBs on a ProMin) made a video. Regardless, having specced and kept MinLogi from the openbeta and having been fully skilled to Hacking5 for a very long time now, whether the difference is 5% or 500% on paper or film it used to be faster, I miss it being that little bit faster and that's all I have to say on the matter. No harm, no foul, I miss having the old hacks for both the extra speed and the fact they were the fastest possible. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 782	Posted - 2015.01.29 22:56:00 - [1234] - Quote That IS a cool video, btw. MinScout w/stacked CBs is just blazin' fast. Damn. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1119	Posted - 2015.01.29 23:02:00 - [1235] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though. ProMin w/4complex breakers IS fast, still, but it definitely isn't as fast as it used to be. ProMin w/o 4 complex breakers, also, is fast-ish but also isn't as fast as it used to be. "As fast as it used to be" being what I miss about my MinLogis hacking bonus. EDIT: And, yes of course, that it was the fastest possible hacking suit on the block. It's only 5% slower. Like the difference from Hacking 0 to Hacking I. The Min Scout just gets an even greater bonus, thus making the Logi feel way slower. Take a look at the video lee corwood posted. We're talking about 2 tenths, 5 one hundredths, and 2 one thousandths of a second at max skills on a Proto suit. That's nothing, even with the low TTK. First of all. ANYTHING with 4 complex code breakers hacks fast, even though with the stacking penalties, that 4th one is a bit questionable. Second. The difference between a pre 1.8 and post 1.8. fully skilled minlogi hack speed is not just 5%. 1.8 removed the minmatar logistics skill bonus of 25%, and buffed the minlogi built in hack speed modifier, yes, but not by 20%. That built in bonus was there pre-1.8. It was just buffed slightly (I seem to remember from 1.1 or 1.15 to 1.2) to differentiate the minlogi from the other logistics suits, which have the 1.15 built in modifier. The difference between minlogi and, say, amarr logi, is only 5%... when pre-1.8 it was considerably more than that. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1161	Posted - 2015.01.29 23:23:00 - [1236] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: lee corwood wrote: Well that was fun but also labor intensive. I'm sending you 5 million ISK when I get home tonight. That was awesome. Small tweak though. The Min Scout gets a native 10% bonus before the extra 25% from racial bonus, and 25% from hacking skill. So, it starts off with 35% instead of 25% as you have listed. Again, badass video! Will have to edit! Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1268	Posted - 2015.01.30 00:05:00 - [1237] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: First of all. ANYTHING with 4 complex code breakers hacks fast, even though with the stacking penalties, that 4th one is a bit questionable. Second. The difference between a pre 1.8 and post 1.8. fully skilled minlogi hack speed is not just 5%. 1.8 removed the minmatar logistics skill bonus of 25%, and buffed the minlogi built in hack speed modifier, yes, but not by 20%. That built in bonus was there pre-1.8. It was just buffed slightly (I seem to remember from 1.1 or 1.15 to 1.2) to differentiate the minlogi from the other logistics suits, which have the 1.15 built in modifier. The difference between minlogi and, say, amarr logi, is only 5%... when pre-1.8 it was considerably more than that. Are you sure that all Logis had a built in modifier? I was under the impression that all suits were at zero, and the Logi with skill bonus went up to a 1.25 modifier? Most drop suits have a built in hack modifier after 1.8 except 3 of the Assaults and all Heavy Frames. Kind of like they added native armor reps to all suits in 1.9. I can't find any spreadsheet on the old stats, and you could be correct. That would have meant the Min Logi hacked even faster than the Min Scout does today though. Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 726	Posted - 2015.01.30 19:11:00 - [1238] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: First of all. ANYTHING with 4 complex code breakers hacks fast, even though with the stacking penalties, that 4th one is a bit questionable. Second. The difference between a pre 1.8 and post 1.8. fully skilled minlogi hack speed is not just 5%. 1.8 removed the minmatar logistics skill bonus of 25%, and buffed the minlogi built in hack speed modifier, yes, but not by 20%. That built in bonus was there pre-1.8. It was just buffed slightly (I seem to remember from 1.1 or 1.15 to 1.2) to differentiate the minlogi from the other logistics suits, which have the 1.15 built in modifier. The difference between minlogi and, say, amarr logi, is only 5%... when pre-1.8 it was considerably more than that. Are you sure that all Logis had a built in modifier? I was under the impression that all suits were at zero, and the Logi with skill bonus went up to a 1.25 modifier? Most drop suits have a built in hack modifier after 1.8 except 3 of the Assaults and all Heavy Frames. Kind of like they added native armor reps to all suits in 1.9. I can't find any spreadsheet on the old stats, and you could be correct. That would have meant the Min Logi hacked even faster than the Min Scout does today though. Yes. When FoxFour was doing the info dumps a year ago all of the dropsuit baselines could be viewed. I'm at work and cant remember the site, but we did see that all logis had a hack bonus and the minmatar's was the better than that. But the Logi cannot hack faster than the Min Scout now. Though Min Logi may have a base stat bonus the class bonus of the Min Scout blows it away at every level of equal skill/equipment investment. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
poison Diego Dead Man's Game RUST415 554	Posted - 2015.02.02 11:44:00 - [1239] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Main support suits: Logistics gk.0 and Logistics ck.0 HP shouldn't be a concern, as although survivability is important, their capacity for out-tanking Assault was a primary cause for Slayer-Logi being a thing. Nanite Injector: It's a ***** piece of **. It's been 2 years. The guys on the CPM0 were telling CCP even before it was released how aboslute game-breaking terrible it would be if you can just pick up anyone. ATM terribads and troll are the only ones that carry them. More than any thing else there needs to be a way to avoid some prick with a dirty needle. Secondly, the nanite injector is just terrible in that it only provides armor HP. It needs to provide Shield HP as well. Active Scanner: Needs to be re-balanced to detect medium frames. Best solution to that is to take away Gallente Logistics Scan Precision bonus and replace it with increased scan angle. The recharge/duration needs to be closer. Not so you can constantly spam it. So long as Gal-Logi has a bonus to precision Medium Frames cannot participate in stealth. 1.4-1.7 had many Assaults or Logistics running 2 dampeners. It was a much healthier game in that tacnet exchange. Removal of squad-shared passive scanning will also significantly improve the desireablity of Active Scanner Skill Bonus. It's been 9 months of me saying this: They need to be comprehensive. The Logistics suits need to be the best at using all equipment. Not just a single one. Fire the idiot, even if it was LogiBro, that thought it was a good idea or even acceptable to have these split up. It's not even complicated. - Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive maximum nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and 5% to repair amount per leveland +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to maximum spawn count per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level What you are saying about removing precision bonus on gal logi would remove their role completely. Scouts are not supposed to be able to wander around unseen at all time because 2 damps.. That is utter bullshitz and would be an undescribable buff to the scout in general.This is coming from a top tier dedicated scout so dont bullshiz me about not wanting balance. Logis get bonus to their own equipment whether you like it or not (ccp the Amarr logi sucks goat a5s right no, btw) the cal and ammar logis should both get 4 equipment slots. The 3 slots are outoutrageously paralysing and it doesn't matter if you take away the amarr sidearm, just givem 4 equipments. proud CBM member Nýja Eden er bara byrjunin.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4058	Posted - 2015.02.05 10:25:00 - [1240] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: What do I get from a capacitor? a limited time to heal? or is it more like an overdrive double or tripling my reps for a limited time? A logi is already gimped enough, let us not gimp them further Booby and Mordecai. You know the arguments about capacitors, but if we need to rehash them we can cut and paste again. Battles are too varied to establish a set time for healing - though some may stay 'leashed' far to often it is not standard of being a logi. Look at the entire class and the many actions it takes, then take another stab at what you may see as WP disparity. I have had great logi games where I did hit the top of the charts, that was with a well coordinated team. Most often those high WP matches are a rarity and not the established experience of all logis. They are the outliers, the 5%. If we keep working this through we must ask: Do we start adding capacitors to all suits then? And what would be their purpose? You see, If we have one capacitor it must be used on other things as well, will it: Limit uplink spawning to 1 per x seconds? Limit firing times for weapons to a x shots withing x seconds? Where will it end? Don't get me wrong, capacitors work well in Eve and create a dynamic battle system. I can see them on vehicles as some have mentioned, but what bonus do the infantry get from such things? If they someday have capacitors I hope it will be for the supersoldier modules we've talked about in the past. Like increasing damage for a certain amount of time or sprint speed, but then lowering that boosted stat for the time it was down. I could see a super rep tool variant that used a capacitor or supper rep module that used a capacitor, but it should not be the norm. I guess what I am trying to say, is that we need a point of diminishing returns in regards to WP from rep tools. I do not want them to cease in functioning via a capacitor. That would be a huge nerf to logis. It's the WP whoring we're trying to cure. Starting off with +25, and falling as low as 5WP before it cuts off is more of what I am looking for. With the way that WPs work internally now I am not sure there needs to be any change here to be totally honest. However since I am not even remotely a fan of foregone conclusions, please outline for me the specifics of the situation and why it is a problem because I do not wish to assume there is nothing I have missed. Describe specifically what behavior you are trying to alter/address and why. Also what levels of WP would be considered proper, in what contexts, and why. Bonus Question: If diminishing returns were added should higher meta rep tools award more WP per cycle? (should they award more per cycle anyway considering that higher meta = fewer cycles and thus lower potential earnings in many contexts). Input on why/why not in both cases. Above questions open to all who wish to comment Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4058	Posted - 2015.02.05 10:30:00 - [1241] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: What do I get from a capacitor? a limited time to heal? or is it more like an overdrive double or tripling my reps for a limited time? A logi is already gimped enough, let us not gimp them further Booby and Mordecai. You know the arguments about capacitors, but if we need to rehash them we can cut and paste again. Battles are too varied to establish a set time for healing - though some may stay 'leashed' far to often it is not standard of being a logi. Look at the entire class and the many actions it takes, then take another stab at what you may see as WP disparity. I have had great logi games where I did hit the top of the charts, that was with a well coordinated team. Most often those high WP matches are a rarity and not the established experience of all logis. They are the outliers, the 5%. If we keep working this through we must ask: Do we start adding capacitors to all suits then? And what would be their purpose? You see, If we have one capacitor it must be used on other things as well, will it: Limit uplink spawning to 1 per x seconds? Limit firing times for weapons to a x shots withing x seconds? Where will it end? Don't get me wrong, capacitors work well in Eve and create a dynamic battle system. I can see them on vehicles as some have mentioned, but what bonus do the infantry get from such things? If they someday have capacitors I hope it will be for the supersoldier modules we've talked about in the past. Like increasing damage for a certain amount of time or sprint speed, but then lowering that boosted stat for the time it was down. I could see a super rep tool variant that used a capacitor or supper rep module that used a capacitor, but it should not be the norm. I guess what I am trying to say, is that we need a point of diminishing returns in regards to WP from rep tools. I do not want them to cease in functioning via a capacitor. That would be a huge nerf to logis. It's the WP whoring we're trying to cure. Starting off with +25, and falling as low as 5WP before it cuts off is more of what I am looking for. Ok, I see what you mean. The greedy part of me that has those games so rarely screams no, but we had a rep cap a while back... I know it was increased but I don't remeber it being removed. Are we also considering the other sources of WP like spawn uplinks? those are pretty bad too, not bad but just point farms. Usefull, just like repping, but that WP should be examined as well. The other part of me knows that the WP rewards are too high for things like guardian points. (and assists for that matter) IFF points were given as a percentage of health healed WP may change quite a bit... but which direction? The other option is to just lower the WP earned... but i am having so few good games I rarely make it to the middle of the charts - so that doesn't seem to solve the issue either. So a soft cap after X WP from repping? If we had to please just make it a high one. Instead of pressing these points down could we instead raise other sources of WP? Like kills, hacks, etc.? Here is the big logical issue / disconnect I see personally. Can I make more WP in my Logi suit than my assault or heavy? Yes. Can I break even ISK wise in my Logi suit even half as often as my assault or heavy? No. Should Logi WP be lowered thus deepening the current problem of overly burdensome role cost? I do not think so. The above is made worse still by the fact that I am a pretty solid Logi, and only a mediocre slayer so that I am more able to go ISK positive playing slayer than logi is a sign things are really not correctly calibrated. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 214	Posted - 2015.02.05 16:09:00 - [1242] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Here is the big logical issue / disconnect I see personally. Can I make more WP in my Logi suit than my assault or heavy? Yes. Can I break even ISK wise in my Logi suit even half as often as my assault or heavy? No. Should Logi WP be lowered thus deepening the current problem of overly burdensome role cost? I do not think so. The above is made worse still by the fact that I am a pretty solid Logi, and only a mediocre slayer so that I am more able to go ISK positive playing slayer than logi is a sign things are really not correctly calibrated. I agree and am largely in the same boat. I support dropping the WP reward per rep tick very modestly, from 25 down to 22 or 23, and cutting the cost of equipment massively, halving the cost of equipment across the board. That would shave 40-50k? isk expense from some proto fits and drop the WP logis earn a little bit, without making it ridiculously hard for a logi to ever top the WP list. Is there a downside? Cheaper equipment is unlikely to result in more equipment spam now that bandwidth is implemented. It will primarily reduce the degree to which running a logi is almost guaranteed to cost isk instead of making it. The only reason I can think of to keep equipment costs as high as they are currently, is to maintain the logi role as essentially a luxury. Newbs, the poor, and players without friendly support need not apply. I kind of get that attitude toward pilots, but not a role primarily dedicated to infantry support. Its not a huge problem, logis making WP more easily than others, but taking small steps in the right direction seems reasonable. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1281	Posted - 2015.02.05 19:40:00 - [1243] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Things Stuff With the way that WPs work internally now I am not sure there needs to be any change here to be totally honest. However since I am not even remotely a fan of foregone conclusions, please outline for me the specifics of the situation and why it is a problem because I do not wish to assume there is nothing I have missed. Describe specifically what behavior you are trying to alter/address and why. Also what levels of WP would be considered proper, in what contexts, and why. Bonus Question: If diminishing returns were added should higher meta rep tools award more WP per cycle? (should they award more per cycle anyway considering that higher meta = fewer cycles and thus lower potential earnings in many contexts). Input on why/why not in both cases. Above questions open to all who wish to comment Cheers, Cross I guess the biggest issue for me is that some schmo can hold R1 the entire match and see little to no decrease in the amount of WP, versus a Logi that was an actual integral asset to the team via links, hives, reps/revives, and kills/kill assists. I honestly believe that if the rep tool had a point of diminishing returns, then the Logi WP whores would go do something else. I don't see many staying put and continuing to rep if they are not grossly rewarded for doing so. What I can see though, is a real Logibro staying and doing the job needed even if they are not getting as many WP as before. The diminishing returns could be offset by the tier of rep tool being used. Mlt/Basic would bottom out at 5 WP, Adv at 10, Proto/Specialist at 15. What would not change is the Guardian Warpoints, keep those as it is. If the WP values were going to change, I would have it at a 20, 25, and 30WP tier from Mlt/Basic to Proto/Specialist. What I do not want to see, is a rep tool that needs to physically cool down. Lower or no WP? Sure. Just don't have it stop working. Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 787	Posted - 2015.02.05 19:48:00 - [1244] - Quote I'd like to remind everyone that War Points from the repper are already drastically reduced, with the overall reduction per cycle and the cap per minute. Also that "Logi-ing" and being a "A Logi" is more than having a Logi suit and a repper, so putting further WP limits on the repper isn't really addressing the "EZ WP ****" mentality of the playerbase. And finally that for a Logi to glean those "super-high" WP totals with a beam they must have been either A) in a group that was under constant fire, repping people who were taking constant fire AND/OR B) in a group that was being constantly pushed by an opponent who didn't realize sooner their lack of progress and basically fed kills (and subsequent support points) to the group. neither of which really warrant a re-evaluation of the WP from the beam, since the activity in both is heavy so points should* be high. I personally feel the best fix would be to fix the equipment cycling stall ( I think its a by-product of the limits placed on cloaks) so we can cycle to the repper faster and more consistently as well as fixing the repper lock-on so it too works more reliably and consistently AND THEN allow Proto Flux nades to break the beam. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
TerranKnight87 Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 118	Posted - 2015.02.05 21:19:00 - [1245] - Quote Any changes to logis since i have been gone?. I stopped playing about 3 weeks before the new maps came. This is TechMechMeds tanker. Redeployside - You are just in time for minimal immersion edition of ps2. Enjoy.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 795	Posted - 2015.02.05 22:37:00 - [1246] - Quote TerranKnight87 wrote: Any changes to logis since i have been gone?. I stopped playing about 3 weeks before the new maps came. Nothing direct to Logis, unless it was ninja'd in. There have been several changes to other game elements as a whole which effect Logis peripherally, like passive scanning changes. Best spot unfortunately for finding that stuff tho would be in the FeedbackSticky archives. We did have our inherent reps returned to us, along with all other medium frames. I'm not sure where/when that falls relative to when you last played though. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
TerranKnight87 Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 120	Posted - 2015.02.05 22:45:00 - [1247] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: TerranKnight87 wrote: Any changes to logis since i have been gone?. I stopped playing about 3 weeks before the new maps came. Nothing direct to Logis, unless it was ninja'd in. There have been several changes to other game elements as a whole which effect Logis peripherally, like passive scanning changes. Best spot unfortunately for finding that stuff tho would be in the FeedbackSticky archives. We did have our inherent reps returned to us, along with all other medium frames. I'm not sure where/when that falls relative to when you last played though. Ok cheers. This is TechMechMeds tanker. Redeployside - You are just in time for minimal immersion edition of ps2. Enjoy.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 795	Posted - 2015.02.05 23:03:00 - [1248] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: TerranKnight87 wrote: Any changes to logis since i have been gone?. I stopped playing about 3 weeks before the new maps came. Nothing direct to Logis, unless it was ninja'd in. There have been several changes to other game elements as a whole which effect Logis peripherally, like passive scanning changes. Best spot unfortunately for finding that stuff tho would be in the FeedbackSticky archives. We did have our inherent reps returned to us, along with all other medium frames. I'm not sure where/when that falls relative to when you last played though. Re-Reads response, looks at thread OP date cries Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1283	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:04:00 - [1249] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: TerranKnight87 wrote: Any changes to logis since i have been gone?. I stopped playing about 3 weeks before the new maps came. Nothing direct to Logis, unless it was ninja'd in. There have been several changes to other game elements as a whole which effect Logis peripherally, like passive scanning changes. Best spot unfortunately for finding that stuff tho would be in the FeedbackSticky archives. We did have our inherent reps returned to us, along with all other medium frames. I'm not sure where/when that falls relative to when you last played though. Re-Reads response, looks at thread OP date cries I have a feeling that things would move so much faster if the Logis were based around Aurum... Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 216	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:16:00 - [1250] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: I have a feeling that things would move so much faster if the Logis were based around Aurum... Don't jinx us! The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4059	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:24:00 - [1251] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Things Stuff With the way that WPs work internally now I am not sure there needs to be any change here to be totally honest. However since I am not even remotely a fan of foregone conclusions, please outline for me the specifics of the situation and why it is a problem because I do not wish to assume there is nothing I have missed. Describe specifically what behavior you are trying to alter/address and why. Also what levels of WP would be considered proper, in what contexts, and why. Bonus Question: If diminishing returns were added should higher meta rep tools award more WP per cycle? (should they award more per cycle anyway considering that higher meta = fewer cycles and thus lower potential earnings in many contexts). Input on why/why not in both cases. Above questions open to all who wish to comment Cheers, Cross I guess the biggest issue for me is that some schmo can hold R1 the entire match and see little to no decrease in the amount of WP, versus a Logi that was an actual integral asset to the team via links, hives, reps/revives, and kills/kill assists. I honestly believe that if the rep tool had a point of diminishing returns, then the Logi WP whores would go do something else. I don't see many staying put and continuing to rep if they are not grossly rewarded for doing so. What I can see though, is a real Logibro staying and doing the job needed even if they are not getting as many WP as before. The diminishing returns could be offset by the tier of rep tool being used. Mlt/Basic would bottom out at 5 WP, Adv at 10, Proto/Specialist at 15. What would not change is the Guardian Warpoints, keep those as it is. If the WP values were going to change, I would have it at a 20, 25, and 30WP tier from Mlt/Basic to Proto/Specialist. What I do not want to see, is a rep tool that needs to physically cool down. Lower or no WP? Sure. Just don't have it stop working. First things first, a tech issue. I do not see diminishing returns as being at all likely from a coding standpoint. Could it be done? Sure. Would it be done in light of the resource cost (in game/match) to implement it? Almost certainly not. Now, I am not a CCP programer and I could simply be mistaken but from other features I have seen discussed and dismissed (scaled WP for injectors based on total HP restored for example) I do not think we will see it in game. Independent of that there are a couple of issues to address. 1. If Logi income is to be balanced including kills/kill assists as part of the baseline then logi combat ability needs to be balanced with the ability to get kills (and survive in the contexts to do so) as part of the baseline as well (I do not believe this is the current condition of the frame). 2. If Reps are to be brought down in value to normalize them with other support actions to force players to spend less time repping then that contains an implicit assumption that logi earnings are improperly high. Otherwise the proper course would be to raise the other rewards to the level of reps. I cannot fully support the notion that logi rewards should be diminished unless/until playing logi throughout an entire match is not so frequently a losing (ISK) prospect. Conceptually I am adamantly opposed to building the game such that proper tactical behavior is not rewarded. There are times when this will be needed due to exploits but I am not a fan of things like caps and cooldowns on earnings for actions. Should there be a cool down or cap on the earnings from kills or assists? I can see a real slayer staying and doing the job needed even if they are not getting as many WP as before (but does that make it a good move?) To be clear, I spend more of my support play time deploying links and hives in key areas than I do repping so the recent changes to BW (which I supported) have had more of an impact on my earnings than a rep tool change would. But these changes cannot be made based on any one of our personal play styles or preferences. We need solid game or role level concepts to recommend a change. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Mad Syringe Dead Man's Game RUST415 453	Posted - 2015.02.06 12:19:00 - [1252] - Quote Open Beta logi with maxed EQ here. My view on the reptool: I don't like leaching a heavy/slayer 24/7. I think it's ok for intense engagements, but running behind a heavy just not to miss those 35+ Guardian points is just meh... (i think that should be lowered to +25 like kill assists) I would like to see a overheat on the reptool with the following changes. The reptool overheats if latched on for extended periods. Overheating increases cooldown. Standard cooldown 3 sec. Overheat cooldown 10 sec. Having a seized reptool in hand prevents switching to a weapon, like with overheated weapons. Time to overheat on a core focused may be around a minute, so that you can have a longer engagement but not perma leash. The reptool will give higher output (+25%) when heated up (after two thirds of it's heating cycle) The reptool will overheat slower in lower tiers, since you need quite some time to rep anything with the basic ones. High tier reptools would have a much shorter cooldown. They overheat faster, but they also recover pretty much instantly (3 sec at proto). Wp should not be attached to the repping cycle, but the amount of reps given. To make life for Logis easier, make a quickdraw EQ slot, which can be chosen with the weapon swap button. This would make it much easier for logis to switch from weapon to reptool and vice versa. Give the Amarr the possibility to put EQ in his sidearm slot. Give the Caldari either a combined sidearm/EQ slot or one more EQ slot. Apart from that, I'd like to see more speed for the logis, since they need to run around much more than point defenders to either drop EQ in different locations or run to the depot to resupply. Logis need to be at least as fast as Assaults, to be able to move with a slayer squad. What has been said about a general EQ buff for logis, I agree upon. EQ should only shine on logis, not on the other suits. I would also like to see racial reptool variants, like tools with resistances, shield tools and combined shield/armour tools. Make a special Stealth Uplink useful to Scouts, that has insane fast spawn times (2sec), but only 5 spawns on it and a very low scan profile (not detectable by a Gallogi). It would be 3 carried but only one active at a time. It would be nice if this link was given a fitting bonus on scouts like the cloak has. This would help in reducing the Scout QQ which I'm tired of.
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1285	Posted - 2015.02.06 15:02:00 - [1253] - Quote Out of morbid curiosity, how long did Shottys Scout threadnaught take to get its first Dev response? We started this discussion, spreadsheet, and proposal over 6 months ago... Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
Hawkings Greenback Dead Man's Game RUST415 301	Posted - 2015.02.06 16:16:00 - [1254] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Out of morbid curiosity, how long did Shottys Scout threadnaught take to get its first Dev response? We started this discussion, spreadsheet, and proposal over 6 months ago... Obviously we have not left the required sacrifices or bait to entice a blue tag. But every night I burn. Screaming the animal scream. Every night I burn. Dreaming the crow-black dream.
Lenz Hong Blood-Titans E-R-A 2	Posted - 2015.02.06 19:54:00 - [1255] - Quote Any change to be made in the Equipment UI? Maybe, after R2+(R1/L1/L2) could show a interface (like R2 or R2+melee) to adjust the equipment on field. For example, I receive a "notification" that one of my Drop Uplinks will pop soon, so i can use the menu to "restock" the Drop Uplink without have to go there or die and respawn there. Or, with that, i can pop a Drop Uplink misplaced without drop all of them or losing all the clones of an Ambush (for example). Also, this maybe could solve (?) another " spam problem" that could happen. Someone could put all the 6 Drop Uplinks in a single place to don't have to go there a lot of times (a roof, for example).
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 729	Posted - 2015.02.07 00:15:00 - [1256] - Quote TerranKnight87 wrote: Any changes to logis since i have been gone?. I stopped playing about 3 weeks before the new maps came. Which Maps? Most likely you missed the Bandwidth update and the Scanning update. Bandwidth: logis can throw down lots of EQ. Assault and Scouts 1 or 2. Heavy None. Scanning: Suit scans now have new dimensions as you get farther from the suit, essentially a scaled drop-off. and the Logi was buffed to be a little bit better of a scanner. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 730	Posted - 2015.02.07 00:47:00 - [1257] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Open Beta logi with maxed EQ here. My view on the reptool: I don't like leaching a heavy/slayer 24/7. I think it's ok for intense engagements, but running behind a heavy just not to miss those 35+ Guardian points is just meh... (i think that should be lowered to +25 like kill assists) I would like to see a overheat on the reptool with the following changes. The reptool overheats if latched on for extended periods. Overheating increases cooldown. Standard cooldown 3 sec. Overheat cooldown 10 sec. Having a seized reptool in hand prevents switching to a weapon, like with overheated weapons. Time to overheat on a core focused may be around a minute, so that you can have a longer engagement but not perma leash. The reptool will give higher output (+25%) when heated up (after two thirds of it's heating cycle) The reptool will overheat slower in lower tiers, since you need quite some time to rep anything with the basic ones. High tier reptools would have a much shorter cooldown. They overheat faster, but they also recover pretty much instantly (3 sec at proto). I think that this could be fun. I would like to see them as variants at first, for trial an testing. while offering a form of tactical play I don't think that they would be the tool of choice for the majority. Similar to the laser rifle. Awesome, but not a popular weapon as it is a situational weapon. Quote: Wp should not be attached to the repping cycle, but the amount of reps given. Agreed. And agreed upon since the beginning a few years back. Quote: To make life for Logis easier, make a quickdraw EQ slot, which can be chosen with the weapon swap button. This would make it much easier for logis to switch from weapon to reptool and vice versa. Give the Amarr the possibility to put EQ in his sidearm slot. Give the Caldari either a combined sidearm/EQ slot or one more EQ slot. I like this in general. I can forsee other classes asking for the same opportunity to equip EQ in the Side Arm slot too though. I don't have an answer on how to deal with that other than just making all logis have 4 EQ slots. Maybe following the type 2 possibilities offered in different threads.... but the whole slot balancing must be reached. We've hashed it over and over again and it is just damn time for it. Quote: Apart from that, I'd like to see more speed for the logis, since they need to run around much more than point defenders to either drop EQ in different locations or run to the depot to resupply. Logis need to be at least as fast as Assaults, to be able to move with a slayer squad. What has been said about a general EQ buff for logis, I agree upon. EQ should only shine on logis, not on the other suits. I would also like to see racial reptool variants, like tools with resistances, shield tools and combined shield/armour tools. Make a special Stealth Uplink useful to Scouts, that has insane fast spawn times (2sec), but only 5 spawns on it and a very low scan profile (not detectable by a Gallogi). It would be 3 carried but only one active at a time. It would be nice if this link was given a fitting bonus on scouts like the cloak has. This would help in reducing the Scout QQ which I'm tired of. Yes. Base logi stats should be adjusted. Multiple proposals out there, few offer survivability as they cater to keeping the logi slow, low hp, bad reps and recharges, hitbox issues, strafe speed, etc. I don't want to be the easiest thing to hit on the map, but I have no defenses. The basis of the Logi Frame came from the suits used in doing all the labor and repair in all conditions of space and land. Their Stats should be mid level but excel at repair and recharging, mobility, stamina, and Eq handling. Scouts and assaults, were designed for military use. Heavies may have been the super logi for heavy lifting, or extreme conditions perhaps. But we are all soldiers now. Equipment has been militarized for the battlefield use if it was not originally designed that way. The Logi suit and equipment would be no different. But currently it feels like the suit is paperthin and has little likelihood of any survival against an opponent - like this is the same suit I would use to work on the farm in. I a battle - regardless of escaping to recuperate, returning fire, or playing dead... one is seen and then dead. All things being equal A logi should not have the same chance of survival as an assault in direct and constant fire. But in staggered fire? Equal or better - I should be able to recharge faster. Escape - fast as or faster than Assault - but better strafe stamina - smaller pool, faster recharge Sorry, I kinda derailed there. Good suggestions, the quick swap is probably the most useful to me right now. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 730	Posted - 2015.02.07 01:11:00 - [1258] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: First things first, a tech issue. I do not see diminishing returns as being at all likely from a coding standpoint. Could it be done? Sure. Would it be done in light of the resource cost (in game/match) to implement it? Almost certainly not. Now, I am not a CCP programer and I could simply be mistaken but from other features I have seen discussed and dismissed (scaled WP for injectors based on total HP restored for example) I do not think we will see it in game. Independent of that there are a couple of issues to address. 1. If Logi income is to be balanced including kills/kill assists as part of the baseline then logi combat ability needs to be balanced with the ability to get kills (and survive in the contexts to do so) as part of the baseline as well (I do not believe this is the current condition of the frame). 2. If Reps are to be brought down in value to normalize them with other support actions to force players to spend less time repping then that contains an implicit assumption that logi earnings are improperly high. Otherwise the proper course would be to raise the other rewards to the level of reps. I cannot fully support the notion that logi rewards should be diminished unless/until playing logi throughout an entire match is not so frequently a losing (ISK) prospect. Conceptually I am adamantly opposed to building the game such that proper tactical behavior is not rewarded. There are times when this will be needed due to exploits but I am not a fan of things like caps and cooldowns on earnings for actions. Should there be a cool down or cap on the earnings from kills or assists? I can see a real slayer staying and doing the job needed even if they are not getting as many WP as before (but does that make it a good move?) To be clear, I spend more of my support play time deploying links and hives in key areas than I do repping so the recent changes to BW (which I supported) have had more of an impact on my earnings than a rep tool change would. But these changes cannot be made based on any one of our personal play styles or preferences. We need solid game or role level concepts to recommend a change. 0.02 ISK Cross I think you hit the point right on the head. I have missed your ability of explanation in these discussions. You grab the origins of the points of view, add the missing details, and then clearly point to what we were really trying to express. Thank you. People are crying about logi wp earnings. There is no explanation of isk lost on the EOM screens; and as has been said the people so used to FPS EOM screens can hardly fathom why support play would be rewarded or at least earn the top spot. Unfortunately the EOM is comparing apples to oranges in my opinion. While they both contain similar vitamins and water molecules they are very different when taken as whole pieces of fruit side by side. Thus an orange is clearly awarded when and apple should have been #1 in the popular mindset... or vice versa. As DUST is striving to be more than just a mindless FPS Twitcher it seems that the logi population has mentally been beaten down into thinking of our roles as inferior. I work my ass off for every fargin point on that board. Sometimes I am rewarded more than others - but it does not put me at the top of the charts all the time either. Our solution was to nerf rewards so that only slayers would shine in reward and EOM EPeen comparisons of kills. The traditional belief is: #1 should equal most kills, most points, most everything. But a balanced mind understands the flaw in this view. Everyone's job is important and we all help in different ways. So, how do we satisfy the egos that need that EPeen boost for their own wellbeing - remember that we need them to play too -? I believe that an EOM screen adjustment would be best. WP does not win. Kills and Assists do. We cannot change the mentality of the world or the player base. A war hero will always be seen as more of a hero than a father, or the farmer that provided the food, or the office worker that approved the air strikes, or the factory employee that put the equipment together, or even the doctor that ensured the survival of the wounded soldier that received all those medals. These are not Lesser Roles, or less important. One cannot function without the other. So, we let those that need the attention get it. CHANGE THE EOM SCREEN RATINGS AND CALCULATIONS for Epeen comparisons. Make Kills and assists and destruction points the weigh more heavily in the awards ceremony. But not in the actual rewarding of gear and isk. I'll take my rewards on the side for my help and live happily knowing the guy facing the bullets is happy and I'm collecting my paycheck. The player that earned #1 has his reward of recognition and some good stuff too. Logis don't often seem to me like those that need the lime light to have a good game. Others need it. So. yeah. ahem. Scaled with HP repped, not cycles so rewards will scale. Don't change rewards Change gear prices Make gear better, and even better for logis. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 730	Posted - 2015.02.07 02:10:00 - [1259] - Quote I want a type 2 Varient "Sachmo" - just thinking of planetary exploration in a Heavy Logi suit. previous posters have talked about it. Mee One, El Operator. But I want an Extreme Condition Logi. Sentinel size. HUGE HP Pool All other stats same as Sentinel but Modules and EQ slots of a logi with only a sidearm for a weapon. I am now on board. Pirate faction, Lost Tech, I don't care - a 5H 5L 4E with a sidearm. Beautiful... a Logi Tank for each race. It would be a fun one to pull out every now and then. :) The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
tritan abbattere DBAG CORE 24	Posted - 2015.02.07 05:17:00 - [1260] - Quote Would be nice if the person being repped would know if he is being repped or not to change his tactics. If I am switching between targets to rep a lot they may still think they have reps and get too ballsy and get killed. Also I kinda like this idea. Cass Caul wrote: - Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive maximum nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and 5% to repair amount per leveland +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to maximum spawn count per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level I am the all mighty Tritan. Fear me for I am a MassHole

Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1484	Posted - 2015.02.07 17:51:00 - [1261] - Quote tritan abbattere wrote: Would be nice if the person being repped would know if he is being repped or not to change his tactics. If I am switching between targets to rep a lot they may still think they have reps and get too ballsy and get killed. Also I kinda like this idea. Cass Caul wrote: - Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive maximum nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and 5% to repair amount per leveland +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to maximum spawn count per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level Still terrible. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1484	Posted - 2015.02.07 18:00:00 - [1262] - Quote So,now that the killers get passive damage increase. And constant officer weapons,and even deadlier experimental weapons. What do us supporters get? Another shaft you say? My,how generous! Again... How about a logistics warbarge? Replace damage increase with equipment efficiency. Replace officer/experimental weapons with equipment. + Yellow stripes = Profit!!! Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Hawkings Greenback Dead Man's Game RUST415 310	Posted - 2015.02.07 18:04:00 - [1263] - Quote Meee One wrote: So,now that the killers get passive damage increase. And constant officer weapons,and even deadlier experimental weapons. What do us supporters get? Another shaft you say? My,how generous! Again... How about a logistics warbarge? Replace damage increase with equipment efficiency. Replace officer/experimental weapons with equipment. + Yellow stripes = Profit!!! https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2574801#post2574801 But every night I burn. Screaming the animal scream. Every night I burn. Dreaming the crow-black dream.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1484	Posted - 2015.02.07 18:08:00 - [1264] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Open Beta logi with maxed EQ here. My view on the reptool: I don't like leaching a heavy/slayer 24/7. I think it's ok for intense engagements, but running behind a heavy just not to miss those 35+ Guardian points is just meh... (i think that should be lowered to +25 like kill assists) I would like to see a overheat on the reptool with the following changes. The reptool overheats if latched on for extended periods. Overheating increases cooldown. Standard cooldown 3 sec. Overheat cooldown 10 sec. Having a seized reptool in hand prevents switching to a weapon, like with overheated weapons. Time to overheat on a core focused may be around a minute, so that you can have a longer engagement but not perma leash. The reptool will give higher output (+25%) when heated up (after two thirds of it's heating cycle) The reptool will overheat slower in lower tiers, since you need quite some time to rep anything with the basic ones. High tier reptools would have a much shorter cooldown. They overheat faster, but they also recover pretty much instantly (3 sec at proto). Wp should not be attached to the repping cycle, but the amount of reps given. To make life for Logis easier, make a quickdraw EQ slot, which can be chosen with the weapon swap button. This would make it much easier for logis to switch from weapon to reptool and vice versa. Give the Amarr the possibility to put EQ in his sidearm slot. Give the Caldari either a combined sidearm/EQ slot or one more EQ slot. Apart from that, I'd like to see more speed for the logis, since they need to run around much more than point defenders to either drop EQ in different locations or run to the depot to resupply. Logis need to be at least as fast as Assaults, to be able to move with a slayer squad. What has been said about a general EQ buff for logis, I agree upon. EQ should only shine on logis, not on the other suits. I would also like to see racial reptool variants, like tools with resistances, shield tools and combined shield/armour tools. Make a special Stealth Uplink useful to Scouts, that has insane fast spawn times (2sec), but only 5 spawns on it and a very low scan profile (not detectable by a Gallogi). It would be 3 carried but only one active at a time. It would be nice if this link was given a fitting bonus on scouts like the cloak has. This would help in reducing the Scout QQ which I'm tired of. As long as repair tools have a nearly 400% loss vs weapons,i'll fight cooldowns tooth and nail. However,a warm up mechanism would be interesting. The more you repair,the better you repair. If you stop you slowly cooldown to a low repair rate.(the starting rate) Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Mad Syringe Dead Man's Game RUST415 454	Posted - 2015.02.10 09:52:00 - [1265] - Quote Meee One wrote: As long as repair tools have a nearly 400% loss vs weapons,i'll fight cooldowns tooth and nail. However,a warm up mechanism would be interesting. The more you repair,the better you repair. If you stop you slowly cooldown to a low repair rate.(the starting rate) The reptool is not supposed to give your heavy invincibility, but it should give the heavy time to kill two incoming heavies of the same tier. So considering the blue heavy and the two incoming red heavies are of same tier and skill, the engagement should be pretty even, with one side winning with a sliver of health left. If you are on the winnning side, you can rep your guy up instantly to full health, while the other side, would need to find a logi or retreat until self repping does the job. The logi's job is not to make the heavy invincible but more durable. My proposal is intended to make the logi job a little bit more active and less boring. I personally have no problems to run with a heavy, but just leaching him with no action involved is just plain boring. I'd prefer if the overheat mechaninc would give me more to think about. It would also involve skill to time the overheat right, and not to seize your reptool. Much more fun in my opinion. As compensation, the reptool might be buffed a little (in cool state).
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1498	Posted - 2015.02.10 14:21:00 - [1266] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Meee One wrote: As long as repair tools have a nearly 400% loss vs weapons,i'll fight cooldowns tooth and nail. However,a warm up mechanism would be interesting. The more you repair,the better you repair. If you stop you slowly cooldown to a low repair rate.(the starting rate) The reptool is not supposed to give your heavy invincibility, but it should give the heavy time to kill two incoming heavies of the same tier. So considering the blue heavy and the two incoming red heavies are of same tier and skill, the engagement should be pretty even, with one side winning with a sliver of health left. If you are on the winnning side, you can rep your guy up instantly to full health, while the other side, would need to find a logi or retreat until self repping does the job. The logi's job is not to make the heavy invincible but more durable. My proposal is intended to make the logi job a little bit more active and less boring. I personally have no problems to run with a heavy, but just leaching him with no action involved is just plain boring. I'd prefer if the overheat mechaninc would give me more to think about. It would also involve skill to time the overheat right, and not to seize your reptool. Much more fun in my opinion. As compensation, the reptool might be buffed a little (in cool state). Your post reads like a QQ post from GD. Logistics takes "no skill","it's boring",etc. And i'm not falling for it. I've found your problem (see underlined). You either: -are limiting your attention to repairing purposely -are running frequently with a camping squad -have never run a front-line logistics,because repping on the front-line is much more exciting than on the back-line where no opponents are -are a bad logistics for keeping your repair tool on a fully healed ally while others need reps too The problem isn't with the grossly underpowered repair tools,it's with your playstyle. Try running solo in ambush and Dom,but avoid skirm like a plague. I'll agree to an overheat right after all weapons get one,because the repair tools are the only things that logistics has that isn't nerfed to smithereens. And a "lolskillful" overheat would destroy them. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4063	Posted - 2015.02.10 23:05:00 - [1267] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: So. yeah. ahem. Scaled with HP repped, not cycles so rewards will scale. Don't change rewards Change gear prices Make gear better, and even better for logis. Noted in order (sorry I'm doing several things at once so this will be a short reply). 1. I really want this, but I do not think we will see it directly. Just like diminishing returns it costs a lot with regards to performance to run those active calculations. We can perhaps mimic it however, by increasing the rate cycles happen while pulling back on the number of HP repped per cycle. This does not have to alter the actual net rep value and can still create a more granular/proper system without the in game performance cost. 2. Agreed generally (there could be a few changes made to baseline rewards mechanic but not at a role based level so that's another topic). 3. Agreed. This is something I am advocating to CCP as part of the Logi revamp. 4. This is pivotal, needs to include WP being tied more directly to tactically effective behavior as much as possible, and hopefully will include some increased diversity within the equipment line(s). 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 145	Posted - 2015.02.11 13:55:00 - [1268] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: snip 3. Agreed. This is something I am advocating to CCP as part of the Logi revamp. snip We have 64 pages of Ideas, some good, some great, and some terribad. We have been talking about a logi revamp for months and have seen nothing other than the BW which effectively made a logi's job harder, with no benefit to the class. I know you have been advocating a change and I know it is on the Rattati's Big Board of Things. But it is not on the road map anywhere in the next 3 releases. Sooo Is this something that CCP / Rattati is looking at, or just something they hope posting here will pacify us. Right now I get the feeling that it is just a pacifying technique. Are you willing to say that there is some positive changes seriously being look at for the logi? You don't have to explain just a simple yes or no. Sadly I am beginning to agree with Mee One, and that sad. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
TerranKnight87 Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 159	Posted - 2015.02.11 15:17:00 - [1269] - Quote Hello, time for the latest edition of this....... WE NEED WP FOR REPAIRING CRUS, DEPOTS, VEHICLES, TURRETS AND DERPSHTS. APPLY THE TRIARGE MECHANIC TO THOSE WITH A NEW NAME 'MECHANIC' AND WP CAP IT AS WELL SO IT CAN'T BE FARMED. Thank you lol. "Tech you're in a max suit, you have 15 mins to unfk yourself or you can fk off." - Stumpycat C/O of Goon Brigade.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 224	Posted - 2015.02.11 15:33:00 - [1270] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Is this something that CCP / Rattati is looking at, or just something they hope posting here will pacify us. Right now I get the feeling that it is just a pacifying technique. I dread a blue tag post that just says, "We're working on it. It will be implemented... Soon. TM" The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread

TerranKnight87 Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 160	Posted - 2015.02.11 15:37:00 - [1271] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Is this something that CCP / Rattati is looking at, or just something they hope posting here will pacify us. Right now I get the feeling that it is just a pacifying technique. I dread a blue tag post that just says, "We're working on it. It will be implemented... Soon. TM" I wonder if someone could create a formula to estimate how long SOONGäó is relative to CCP lol. That would be hilarious. "Tech you're in a max suit, you have 15 mins to unfk yourself or you can fk off." - Stumpycat C/O of Goon Brigade.
Hawkings Greenback Dead Man's Game RUST415 314	Posted - 2015.02.11 18:26:00 - [1272] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Cross Atu wrote: snip 3. Agreed. This is something I am advocating to CCP as part of the Logi revamp. snip We have 64 pages of Ideas, some good, some great, and some terribad. We have been talking about a logi revamp for months and have seen nothing other than the BW which effectively made a logi's job harder, with no benefit to the class. I know you have been advocating a change and I know it is on the Rattati's Big Board of Things. But it is not on the road map anywhere in the next 3 releases. Sooo Is this something that CCP / Rattati is looking at, or just something they hope posting here will pacify us. Right now I get the feeling that it is just a pacifying technique. Are you willing to say that there is some positive changes seriously being look at for the logi? You don't have to explain just a simple yes or no. Sadly I am beginning to agree with Mee One, and that sad. Despite this threads best intentions & the fact that the logi frame & class role needs looking at I believe in my own mind that it is not that far up on the list of things to do. Honestly I am surprised by the lack of blue tag interaction bearing in mind the complaints of people regarding logis & the inherently negative perception of them from the community as a whole, this despite the fact that most good squads want a logi. It does seem to boil down to what is critical in keeping the game ticking over and logis are apparantly few & far between currently ( if you believe G.D. ) so maybe its priority isn't as important. However there are a few very simple things that could help logis in there day to day, cost of equipment being one of these as an example. The last time I think a blue tag discussed logi changes was when Rattati was looking to reduce the speed & remove the amarr logi sidearm. That didnt go down to well and there was a lot of heated discussion & since then the only thing we have had is BW which was to reduce spam & improve frame rate. It has had a dramatic effect on the logi class overall good & bad. Some of the CPM is hopefully trying to drive this topic & I suppose we just have to keep discussing & bumping this thread until some one decides to talk to us ( looks at Rattati ) The one thing I asked at the start was " How do CCP envision the Logi role ?" still a valid question that they won't or cannot answer atm. Mini splurge over, keeping the faith, repping, scanning ( ( ) ) and picking your dead ass of the ground whenever I can. But every night I burn. Screaming the animal scream. Every night I burn. Dreaming the crow-black dream.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1498	Posted - 2015.02.12 02:25:00 - [1273] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Sadly I am beginning to agree with Mee One, and that's sad. Agreeing with someone who's right about something makes you sad? BTW,you're only agreeing because you can see with your own eyes that everything i've been saying is correct. Don't blame yourself for not agreeing sooner,blame CCP for making me correct. Anywho... Something tells me logistics is going to be UP and expensive for a while longer. And we'll never see a blue tag,unless it's for placebo or trolling. "We hear and are working actively to improve logistics as a whole". They say. While crossing their fingers behind their back. Honestly i'd prefer silence over a lie. Then there's the players... They'll suggest radical nerfs and try to put a pretty ribbon on it using the words tactics,or 'skill'. When in all actuality they're bored with the way they play the game,but instead of changing themselves they'd rather change the game around them. Let's not forget the word 'balance'. Which,for equipment,is impossible. Why do i say that? Because each race doesn't have it's own variation. For example: -When ARs were the only ones in the game they shot miles for insane damage. -When the other rifles were introduced,it allowed a bar to be set to start balance. (If a certain weapon was being used much more than the others.) Where's the Gal uplink? Or Cal shield tool? Amarr scanner? Min nanohive? Oh yeah...they don't exist. And since they don't,there is no bar set for proper balance,it simply can't be done,unless you pull the numbers out of your butt. So when i,or anyone else throw seemingly insane numbers around,this is why. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Lenz Hong Blood-Titans E-R-A 5	Posted - 2015.02.12 04:22:00 - [1274] - Quote Meee One wrote: [quote=Mister Goo] Where's the Gal uplink? Or Cal shield tool? Amarr scanner? Min nanohive? Oh yeah...they don't exist. And since they don't,there is no bar set for proper balance,it simply can't be done,unless you pull the numbers out of your butt. So when i,or anyone else throw seemingly insane numbers around,this is why. How should the equivalent equipments be? How should them be used? Amarr/Caldari should be dropped, as Nanohives and Drop Uplinks? Minmatar/Gallente should be pointed and used, as Rep Tools and Active Scanners? Don't get me wrong, just curiosity since all this can change a lot in the game
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4065	Posted - 2015.02.12 12:14:00 - [1275] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Cross Atu wrote: snip 3. Agreed. This is something I am advocating to CCP as part of the Logi revamp. snip We have 64 pages of Ideas, some good, some great, and some terribad. We have been talking about a logi revamp for months and have seen nothing other than the BW which effectively made a logi's job harder, with no benefit to the class. I know you have been advocating a change and I know it is on the Rattati's Big Board of Things. But it is not on the road map anywhere in the next 3 releases. Sooo Is this something that CCP / Rattati is looking at, or just something they hope posting here will pacify us. Right now I get the feeling that it is just a pacifying technique. Are you willing to say that there is some positive changes seriously being look at for the logi? You don't have to explain just a simple yes or no. Sadly I am beginning to agree with Mee One, and that sad. Yes it is being looked at. To be blunt it has not happened as expediently as I would wish and as recently as this week I brought it up again because I believe it is long overdue. The Trello board is for patch level releases and the bulk of the logi fixes can be done via hotfix so it is still slated for sooner than it seems but I will redouble my efforts to make sure it does not get lost in the shuffle. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1499	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:01:00 - [1276] - Quote Lenz Hong wrote: Meee One wrote: [quote=Mister Goo] Where's the Gal uplink? Or Cal shield tool? Amarr scanner? Min nanohive? Oh yeah...they don't exist. And since they don't,there is no bar set for proper balance,it simply can't be done,unless you pull the numbers out of your butt. So when i,or anyone else throw seemingly insane numbers around,this is why. How should the equivalent equipments be? How should them be used? Amarr/Caldari should be dropped, as Nanohives and Drop Uplinks? Minmatar/Gallente should be pointed and used, as Rep Tools and Active Scanners? Don't get me wrong, just curiosity since all this can change a lot in the game Well,that's the problem. First you have to define logistics. I always thought logistics were techsperts. Sacrificing physical force (eHP speed and stamina),for the ability to be the best at external support (think stereotype nerd,weak physically,strong mentally),multiplying the force presented by other units. Which would mean logistics should have the best eWAR (range and precision),and hacking right? While scouts would have the best dampening.(they are described as being sneaky and compact,not eWAR based) Well there's the problem. Logistics isn't good at eWAR,and logistics is only moderately faster at hacking. Logistics is currently good at only 1 thing,being an equipment mule,and while worth it in theory that in no way aids in survival like eWAR would. So until CCP decides to give logistics a defined survival mechanism through methods that are already sacrificed for, pondering equipment to attach to the broken suit is a bad idea,as it allows for distraction from the #1 problem,the suit itself. Think assault level buff in regards to eWAR and external support for logistics,that would do it. And seeing as logistics and assaults are supposed to make up the bulk of all suits in combat,while scouts are supposed to be niche,it makes sense to buff them in a similar fashion. But as to your questions. I have no idea. TBH i'm picturing different shapes,but essentially the same functions (like rifles). But this is only because CCP hasn't even given us an inch in regards to the possibility. I do however see a scanlink,you place it,you press the fire button it sends out a 'ping' and scans. Limited amount carried,limited amount of scans,refilled at the supply depot. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 146	Posted - 2015.02.13 00:20:00 - [1277] - Quote Cross Atu Yes it is being looked at. [:) wrote: To be blunt it has not happened as expediently as I would wish and as recently as this week I brought it up again because I believe it is long overdue. The Trello board is for patch level releases and the bulk of the logi fixes can be done via hotfix so it is still slated for sooner than it seems but I will redouble my efforts to make sure it does not get lost in the shuffle. Thank You, keep the flames on CCP because we need something soon. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Lenz Hong Blood-Titans E-R-A 5	Posted - 2015.02.13 01:12:00 - [1278] - Quote Meee One wrote: Well,that's the problem. First you have to define logistics. I always thought logistics were techsperts. Sacrificing physical force (eHP speed and stamina),for the ability to be the best at external support (think stereotype nerd,weak physically,strong mentally),multiplying the force presented by other units. Which would mean logistics should have the best eWAR (range and precision),and hacking right? While scouts would have the best dampening.(they are described as being sneaky and compact,not eWAR based) Well there's the problem. Logistics isn't good at eWAR,and logistics is only moderately faster at hacking. Logistics is currently good at only 1 thing,being an equipment mule,and while worth it in theory that in no way aids in survival like eWAR would. So until CCP decides to give logistics a defined survival mechanism through methods that are already sacrificed for, pondering equipment to attach to the broken suit is a bad idea,as it allows for distraction from the #1 problem,the suit itself. Think assault level buff in regards to eWAR and external support for logistics,that would do it. And seeing as logistics and assaults are supposed to make up the bulk of all suits in combat,while scouts are supposed to be niche,it makes sense to buff them in a similar fashion. But as to your questions. I have no idea. TBH i'm picturing different shapes,but essentially the same functions (like rifles). But this is only because CCP hasn't even given us an inch in regards to the possibility. I do however see a scanlink,you place it,you press the fire button it sends out a 'ping' and scans. Limited amount carried,limited amount of scans,refilled at the supply depot. Well, let's think about the role. Logistics is a support role, which means it should help the others, being behind them repping and providing intel, right? Since the equipments bonus are about to change, all of the logis seems to gain a repair tool bonus (), and all of them seems to gain a buff in eHP (not a great but, ok..) let's think about intel then. The only one who can provide "a good intel" is the GalLogi but it have to stop it actions and take a distance to use an active scan. From here we see a problem. Why not add to the logistics bonus a +10% range role bonus? From Protofits the base range of the Logis is 25 meters, in this case the GalLogi would have (lvl5, Logi and Range Skills) 50 meters, seems a good for a better "intel". But range without precision is nothing, why not -2/3% scan precision per level? From this point the base is 45db (seems too much =/) but considering a change to 40dB and lvl5 at Precision and Logi skills it could turn too be either 32db or 30db, good to see even some Scouts. I don't know about a bonus to hacking, but maybe a better hacking speed built-in the dropsuit? About scouts, they're sneaky and compact, their intent is to invade, provide some intel and hack without getting caught. Maybe the "answer" is to diminish the CPU/PG of the scouts but give them a bonus to cloak and profile/precision/range modules? Considering the Equipments and what I know from the focus of each faction, i thought in this for the equivalents (maybe some/all of them already have been thought, but..) Repair Tool: maybe a Caldari Shield Regen (Rail Rifle like, could just buff the shield recharge and diminish the shield recharge delay), Gallente Armor+Shield Regen (Repair tool like, give repair to both, but is weaker than the others) and a Amarr Power-Up (basically a ray to give a damage mod to someone, dunno if would be a good idea..) Active Scanner: Considering Cloak Field as a Caldari answer to the active scanner, we could have Amarr distraction points (deployable and fix or deployable and auto-moveable? maybe hide the user while is being active..). Minmatar, being allies from Gallente could use some of the Gallente Technology to create remote scanners, as remote explosives they would be deployable and activatable (in active mode, it would emit some pulses and enter in "overheat mode" (?), just like Scrambler Rifle/Ion Pistol) Can't think about the others (Drop Uplink, Nanohives, Nanite Injectors, etc...)
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1499	Posted - 2015.02.13 05:41:00 - [1279] - Quote Lenz Hong wrote: The only one who can provide "a good intel" is the GalLogi but it have to stop it actions and take a distance to use an active scan. From here we see a problem. Why not add to the logistics bonus a +10% range role bonus? From Protofits the base range of the Logis is 25 meters, in this case the GalLogi would have (lvl5, Logi and Range Skills) 50 meters, seems a good for a better "intel". 50 meters is crazy far,35m seems less insane and would encourage less soloing assault style But range without precision is nothing, why not -2/3% scan precision per level? From this point the base is 45db (seems too much =/) but considering a change to 40dB and lvl5 at Precision and Logi skills it could turn too be either 32db or 30db, good to see even some Scouts. the change would have to be significant enough to be worth replacing eHP mods. So probably. I don't know about a bonus to hacking, but maybe a better hacking speed built-in the dropsuit? Yes About scouts, they're sneaky and compact, their intent is to invade, provide some intel and hack without getting caught. Maybe the "answer" is to diminish the CPU/PG of the scouts but give them a bonus to cloak and profile/precision/range modules? Don't wave the nerf bat so fast,there might be a way to just buff logistics without nerfing scouts. Considering the Equipments and what I know from the focus of each faction, i thought in this for the equivalents (maybe some/all of them already have been thought, but..) Repair Tool: maybe a Caldari Shield Regen (Rail Rifle like, could just buff the shield recharge and diminish the shield recharge delay), Gallente Armor Regen (Repair tool like, but is stronger with lower range than the others) and a Amarr Power-Up (basically a ray to give a damage resist to someone, dunno if would be a good idea..) FTFY Active Scanner: Considering Cloak Field as a Caldari answer to the active scanner, we could have Amarr distraction points (deployable and fix or deployable and auto-moveable? maybe hide the user while is being active..). Minmatar, being allies from Gallente could use some of the Gallente Technology to create remote scanners, as remote explosives they would be deployable and activatable (in active mode, it would emit some pulses and enter in "overheat mode" (?), just like Scrambler Rifle/Ion Pistol) Can't think about the others (Drop Uplink, Nanohives, Nanite Injectors, etc...) About scouts,every one has an eWAR bonus but Min. It has hacking and...NK (the wrong racial weapon). Before bonuses were swapped logistics had hacking as was intended. But CCP nerfed equipment as an excuse to steal that bonus and,to be blunt,put it on the wrong suit. As i see it there are 3 faces to this game. eHP,evasion,eWAR. And in every class they are dominant in at least one of these... eHP -heavies,bad evasion,bad eWAR All round -assault,good eHP,good evasion,mediocre eWAR Then there's scouts... eHP of a logistics. Better evasion if they decide not to tank. eWAR for passives and dampening. And logistics.. Low eHP means high evasion right? Nope Low eHP and low evasion means high eWAR right? Nope Then what does logistics get? The ability to carry extra stuff! Woo for being a worthless pack mule! Logistics should be the best at eWAR if they aren't supposed to be active combat suits. eWAR = Scanning and precision as well as hacking Yet they aren't,why? Because 'lolreasons'. Still believe the lie that scouts should hack faster? Let me ask you 1 thing,what color are all the installations? Look closely,there are patches of yellow! And what color is logistics? Yellow But what color are scouts?Blue So now that you realize this truth,tell me why a logistics suit shouldn't hack a logistics installation (all of them) faster? Yet a scout should? It shouldn't. But logistics can't because 'lolreasons'. And until logistics is given back what scouts have stolen in eWAR,logistics will always be just a stupid pack mule,with base stats that make 0 sense because it isn't compensated with by that missing eWAR. But hey what do i know,i only put 2+2 together and got 4. Then again see mai sig. As to new equipment,i don't think we'll be getting any new models any time soon,which is why i often try to repurpose assets already in-game. For example a AOE repair tool,using vehicle scan circle,can heal multiple allies at once. At a decreased rate of course. Something like 50 hp/s at Pro. Or maybe a flux RE that temporarily disables the enemies tacnet within its radius. Or an active scrambler which,using the Gal scanner,temporarily makes false enemies appear on the opponents tacnet. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 733	Posted - 2015.02.20 20:38:00 - [1280] - Quote Meee One wrote: As long as repair tools have a nearly 400% loss vs weapons,i'll fight cooldowns tooth and nail. However,a warm up mechanism would be interesting. The more you repair,the better you repair. If you stop you slowly cooldown to a low repair rate.(the starting rate) This could be very fun. Adding a sense of timing and reward for some heavy battle repairs. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower

Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1507	Posted - 2015.02.20 21:29:00 - [1281] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Meee One wrote: As long as repair tools have a nearly 400% loss vs weapons,i'll fight cooldowns tooth and nail. However,a warm up mechanism would be interesting. The more you repair,the better you repair. If you stop you slowly cooldown to a low repair rate.(the starting rate) This could be very fun. Adding a sense of timing and reward for some heavy battle repairs. And it would make repairing installations and vehicles worth it. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6806	Posted - 2015.02.20 21:48:00 - [1282] - Quote Meee One wrote: Lenz Hong wrote: The only one who can provide "a good intel" is the GalLogi but it have to stop it actions and take a distance to use an active scan. From here we see a problem. Why not add to the logistics bonus a +10% range role bonus? From Protofits the base range of the Logis is 25 meters, in this case the GalLogi would have (lvl5, Logi and Range Skills) 50 meters, seems a good for a better "intel". 50 meters is crazy far,35m seems less insane and would encourage less soloing assault style But range without precision is nothing, why not -2/3% scan precision per level? From this point the base is 45db (seems too much =/) but considering a change to 40dB and lvl5 at Precision and Logi skills it could turn too be either 32db or 30db, good to see even some Scouts. the change would have to be significant enough to be worth replacing eHP mods. So probably. I don't know about a bonus to hacking, but maybe a better hacking speed built-in the dropsuit? Yes About scouts, they're sneaky and compact, their intent is to invade, provide some intel and hack without getting caught. Maybe the "answer" is to diminish the CPU/PG of the scouts but give them a bonus to cloak and profile/precision/range modules? Don't wave the nerf bat so fast,there might be a way to just buff logistics without nerfing scouts. Considering the Equipments and what I know from the focus of each faction, i thought in this for the equivalents (maybe some/all of them already have been thought, but..) Repair Tool: maybe a Caldari Shield Regen (Rail Rifle like, could just buff the shield recharge and diminish the shield recharge delay), Gallente Armor Regen (Repair tool like, but is stronger with lower range than the others) and a Amarr Power-Up (basically a ray to give a damage resist to someone, dunno if would be a good idea..) FTFY Active Scanner: Considering Cloak Field as a Caldari answer to the active scanner, we could have Amarr distraction points (deployable and fix or deployable and auto-moveable? maybe hide the user while is being active..). Minmatar, being allies from Gallente could use some of the Gallente Technology to create remote scanners, as remote explosives they would be deployable and activatable (in active mode, it would emit some pulses and enter in "overheat mode" (?), just like Scrambler Rifle/Ion Pistol) Can't think about the others (Drop Uplink, Nanohives, Nanite Injectors, etc...) About scouts,every one has an eWAR bonus but Min. It has hacking and...NK (the wrong racial weapon). Before bonuses were swapped logistics had hacking as was intended. But CCP nerfed equipment as an excuse to steal that bonus and,to be blunt,put it on the wrong suit. As i see it there are 3 faces to this game. eHP,evasion,eWAR. And in every class they are dominant in at least one of these... eHP -heavies,bad evasion,bad eWAR All round -assault,good eHP,good evasion,mediocre eWAR Then there's scouts... eHP of a logistics. Better evasion if they decide not to tank. eWAR for passives and dampening. And logistics.. Low eHP means high evasion right? Nope Low eHP and low evasion means high eWAR right? Nope Then what does logistics get? The ability to carry extra stuff! Woo for being a worthless pack mule! Logistics should be the best at eWAR if they aren't supposed to be active combat suits. eWAR = Scanning and precision as well as hacking Yet they aren't,why? Because 'lolreasons'. Still believe the lie that scouts should hack faster? Let me ask you 1 thing,what color are all the installations? Look closely,there are patches of yellow! And what color is logistics? Yellow But what color are scouts?Blue So now that you realize this truth,tell me why a logistics suit shouldn't hack a logistics installation (all of them) faster? Yet a scout should? It shouldn't. But logistics can't because 'lolreasons'. And until logistics is given back what scouts have stolen in eWAR,logistics will always be just a stupid pack mule,with base stats that make 0 sense because it isn't compensated with by that missing eWAR. But hey what do i know,i only put 2+2 together and got 4. Then again see mai sig. As to new equipment,i don't think we'll be getting any new models any time soon,which is why i often try to repurpose assets already in-game. For example a AOE repair tool,using vehicle scan circle,can heal multiple allies at once. At a decreased rate of course. Something like 50 hp/s at Pro. Or maybe a flux RE that temporarily disables the enemies tacnet within its radius. Or an active scrambler which,using the Gal scanner,temporarily makes false enemies appear on the opponents tacnet. Cross would know better than I, but Scouts are very likely UP at the moment. An increase in GA Logi grade scans would render Scouts obsolete. I'm of the opinion that the GA Logi precision bonus should be toned down, or the bonus replaced with something logistics related and given to the AM Scout. The AM Scout has had no competitive function since Falloff killed passive recon, and active recon seems a much more appropriate role for a Scout than a Logi. Further, a maximum of two periodic, overpowered scans would be 100% less overpowered than 4. If the GA Logi scan bonus were going to be replaced, what would you want in its stead? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1509	Posted - 2015.02.21 00:14:00 - [1283] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross would know better than I, but Scouts are very likely UP at the moment. An increase in GA Logi grade scans would render Scouts obsolete. I'm of the opinion that the GA Logi precision bonus should be toned down, or the bonus replaced with something logistics related and given to the AM Scout. The AM Scout has had no competitive function since Falloff killed passive recon, and active recon seems a much more appropriate role for a Scout than a Logi. Further, a maximum of two periodic, overpowered scans would be 100% less overpowered than 4. If the GA Logi scan bonus were going to be replaced, what would you want in its stead? Tbh,Gal logis have 0 other options. Gal have 0 other equipment that their logi can be good with. So i would have 0 other suggestions regarding a replacement,unless CCP lets us know possible options. But as for scouts getting to be better with equipment than a logistics...the answer is a resounding NO! Besides that,it's Gal tech why would Amarr be better with it? Plus scouts are supposed to be niche anyway. Used as a last resort,just read their description FFS it basically sums up to "assault with dampening instead of eHP meant to sneak by enemies". Consider the following as well,each scanner takes 15-30 seconds,with 4 you sacrifice a lot of possible WP through lost equipment. As well as leaving yourself without aid through hives and idle through cooldown timers. It's actually a pretty bad sacrifice IMO. I don't run scouts,but wouldn't a bonus to cardiac regs be more in-line with its current bonuses? Run in,reveal enemies,run out or around them. It would overcome its weakness with oodles of stamina. ------ To address your question specifically... There's obviously only 1 valid replacement,repair rate on the repair tool. If CCP adds different repair tools,shield(blue),hybrid(blue and gold),to go along with the armor (gold) one we currently have.(just change beam colors) That's when you get the chance to replace it with a worthwhile bonus. Armor repair tool: -Amarr would have the longest range -Gal would have the highest repair rate Shields: -Cal would have the longest range -Min would have the highest repair rate -or- Shields: -Cal would have the highest repair rate and longest range Hybrid (1/2 as effective as the others): -Min would have the highest repair rate and longest range. But as it currently stands i'd say there isn't really a fair bonus to offer for poking their eyes out. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Ryanjr TUG KnightKiller's inc. 14	Posted - 2015.02.21 00:26:00 - [1284] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross Reference:Nanohive Alchemy: Nanite Cluster Mysteries <-- Until I get better numbers, use this as a reference point. EDIT: Proposed changes WORKING DRAFT 1st iteration 2nd iteration 3rd iteration<--- Feedback phase in progress, consideration of both concepts and numbers welcome Note: Undergoing updates, document will be made current after the deployment of Patch 1.9 Note: While proposed equipment changes from iteration 1 have currently been tabled discussion is on going, particularly with respects to a more scaled method of the equipment changes Examples: Cross Atu wrote: STD - 10% ADV - 15% PRO - 25% or STD - 5% ADV - 10% PRO - 20% I am a logic, and don'r change it. I will leave an take my money with me. I put 20$ in Dust 514 every week, so I don't need the "CPM" tag. I am older player. I have 13 million SP in the logics. You need to mind your own damn Business........ TUG_Ryan "I come in peace I didn't bring artillery, but I'm pleading with you with tears in eyes if you fuck me I kill you all"
killertojo42 KnightKiller's inc. 150	Posted - 2015.02.21 00:34:00 - [1285] - Quote The problem is people who hate logis don't have logis that squad with them or on their team and think it's OP even though it's the most dependent and defenseless class in the game Because both of us dying as I'm in my nomad BPO is to my benefit
Ryanjr TUG KnightKiller's inc. 14	Posted - 2015.02.21 00:37:00 - [1286] - Quote killertojo42 wrote: The problem is people who hate logis don't have logis that squad with them or on their team and think it's OP even though it's the most dependent and defenseless class in the game byomessing for me if the logic gets change:) "I come in peace I didn't bring artillery, but I'm pleading with you with tears in eyes if you fuck me I kill you all"
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1509	Posted - 2015.02.21 00:55:00 - [1287] - Quote Ryanjr TUG wrote: killertojo42 wrote: The problem is people who hate logis don't have logis that squad with them or on their team and think it's OP even though it's the most dependent and defenseless class in the game byomessing for me if the logic gets change:) So,you want 0 improvements? Lol,assault user detected. But seriously. I hope CCP ignores all this 'nerf rep tool' spam. 1st it was "logis aren't repping enough,they're shooting too much,nerf them!" 2nd (now) it's "logis are repping too much,they're not shooting enough,nerf them!" Then it'll repeat infinitely until logistics is removed. A line needs to be drawn. And i hope it's here. No overheat,no capacitor. Now,depending on later additions there may need to be some change,but now is not that time. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1510	Posted - 2015.02.21 01:15:00 - [1288] - Quote killertojo42 wrote: The problem is people who hate logis don't have logis that squad with them or on their team and think it's OP even though it's the most dependent and defenseless class in the game Then there are those that are upset victory isn't handed to them on a silver platter. These players often get upset about being scanned while flanking,preventing sneak attacks AKA what scanners were meant to do. Or that opponents survive 3 bullets let alone are able to be repaired. And frequently complain about team work,claiming a solo assault should be able to kill 2 mercs working as a team easily. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5014	Posted - 2015.02.21 01:16:00 - [1289] - Quote Meee One wrote: But seriously. I hope CCP ignores all this 'nerf rep tool' spam. 1st it was "logis aren't repping enough,they're shooting too much,nerf them!" 2nd (now) it's "logis are repping too much,they're not shooting enough,nerf them!" So goddamn freaking true. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 734	Posted - 2015.02.21 01:20:00 - [1290] - Quote Meee One wrote: Lenz Hong wrote: Meee One wrote: [quote=Mister Goo] Where's the Gal uplink? Or Cal shield tool? Amarr scanner? Min nanohive? Oh yeah...they don't exist. And since they don't,there is no bar set for proper balance,it simply can't be done,unless you pull the numbers out of your butt. So when i,or anyone else throw seemingly insane numbers around,this is why. How should the equivalent equipments be? How should them be used? Amarr/Caldari should be dropped, as Nanohives and Drop Uplinks? Minmatar/Gallente should be pointed and used, as Rep Tools and Active Scanners? Don't get me wrong, just curiosity since all this can change a lot in the game Well,that's the problem. First you have to define logistics. I always thought logistics were techsperts. Sacrificing physical force (eHP speed and stamina),for the ability to be the best at external support (think stereotype nerd,weak physically,strong mentally),multiplying the force presented by other units. Which would mean logistics should have the best eWAR (range and precision),and hacking right? While scouts would have the best dampening.(they are described as being sneaky and compact,not eWAR based) Well there's the problem. Logistics isn't good at eWAR,and logistics is only moderately faster at hacking. Logistics is currently good at only 1 thing,being an equipment mule,and while worth it in theory that in no way aids in survival like eWAR would. So until CCP decides to give logistics a defined survival mechanism through methods that are already sacrificed for, pondering equipment to attach to the broken suit is a bad idea,as it allows for distraction from the #1 problem,the suit itself. Think assault level buff in regards to eWAR and external support for logistics,that would do it. And seeing as logistics and assaults are supposed to make up the bulk of all suits in combat,while scouts are supposed to be niche,it makes sense to buff them in a similar fashion. But as to your questions. I have no idea. TBH i'm picturing different shapes,but essentially the same functions (like rifles). But this is only because CCP hasn't even given us an inch in regards to the possibility. I do however see a scanlink,you place it,you press the fire button it sends out a 'ping' and scans. Limited amount carried,limited amount of scans,refilled at the supply depot. Is it possible to love you more? I doubt it - You are nailing this discussion right now! "Where does CCP see the Logi Role" is the perfect question because we don't see the Eve side of the role reflected in Dust514. - I'm not advocating or debating such a practice only agreeing that we don't have that definition and that it would be very useful. There must be a survival mechanism for the Logi, even if it was logi's didn't have a side arm because they all had a active energy shield they could throw up... but since that is equipment like that wouldn't be suit specific.... so nevermind. But we know where we want to go. Logis as a class must excel in one or two of the traits that offer a mechanism to live in a battle. AND We need to be more that a pack mule with a specialty in 1 piece of gear. So I'm on board with most suggestions to implement that defining. I wanted best regens but best EWAR is OK too if there is some increase in survivability. As a few others have posted the roles all need definition and some qualities that make them different that then allow us to customize styles with those benefits. Will we agree as a community? I doubt it, but with an official CCP proposal at least we would know what they are willing to look at and then we could work on ideas from there. Currently we have ideas from all over the board covering quite a full spectrum of solutions from a lighter logi to a heavier logi simply because we all see the suit handling differently and CCP has muddied the waters with stat and story values that don't nail down the class. I'm all for open game play and breaking things, but first want the balance conversation that can come from defining each class. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower

RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 735	Posted - 2015.02.21 01:51:00 - [1291] - Quote Meee One wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Meee One wrote: As long as repair tools have a nearly 400% loss vs weapons,i'll fight cooldowns tooth and nail. However,a warm up mechanism would be interesting. The more you repair,the better you repair. If you stop you slowly cooldown to a low repair rate.(the starting rate) This could be very fun. Adding a sense of timing and reward for some heavy battle repairs. And it would make repairing installations and vehicles worth it. And can add chances for other logis to get bonuses. For example: -Min gets a starting advantage (rep amount) -Amarr gets a heat increase to top out faster,seeing as it is their native tech -Gal gets a heat rep rate multiplier so they end up repping the most -Cal gets a reduction to the cooldown so they can maintain higher rep rates during combat lulls That's if shield and hybrid tools aren't added of course,then it allows for a whole more host of bonuses. That is some good thinking :) Querry: Your Gal multiplier makes them repair more per cycle, shortens cycle, or... i'm sorry I guess i'm just not getting it. I'm confused because Minmatar are the current master reppers and this sounds like it would change that. The Min base amount advantage seems like it would still push the max. For some numbers to help my mind with your idea, it sounds like this to me: (Imaginary numbers) repair tool base rep of 50 hp per cycle. (hpc) 1 cycle = 1second. Heat build up is 10 per sec. (h) Buildup maxed at 10. So, 10 seconds of repping = 100h = fully warmed up. Warmup multipliers could be at diff levels, but we will choose 50h and 100h for our example. 1.5x at 50 heat. and 2x at 100 heat Cooldown of 5heat per sec when not repping. Full cooldown in 20seconds I am not exploring the possibilty of race specific tools at this moment - too complicated for an example. Minmatar starting bonus of 25% pushes initial repair tool to starting rep rate of 0s- 0h - 62.5hpc 5s - 50h - 93.75hpc 10s -100h - 125hpc Amarr bonus of 50% to heat build up. (h) 0s - 0h - 50hpc 2.5s - 50h - 75hpc 5s - 100h - 100hpc Caldari 50% bonus to -cooldown. Cooldown is 40seconds wow, that could be a reason to use Caldari always staying near the top of the rep cycle power. 0s - 0h - 50hpc 5s - 50h - 75hpc 10s - 100h - 100hpc Gallente 25% bonus to rep rate multiplier. 0s - 0h - 50hpc 5s - 50h - 93.75 (1.875 rate) 10s - 100h - 125 (2.5 rate) OK, so I get it now. It was not as drastic as I thought. I just needed the numbers to speak to me and get it out to logic the situation. A warm up could be useful and make repping a new kind of fun, and the race would really bring a new dynamic that does not add Complexity - and that is what I think we like. Have some cool ideas but don't make it complicated for the newbros, but add some flavor for the oldbros. I approve this idea. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1513	Posted - 2015.02.21 01:58:00 - [1292] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Is it possible to love you more? I doubt it - You are nailing this discussion right now! "Where does CCP see the Logi Role" is the perfect question because we don't see the Eve side of the role reflected in Dust514. - I'm not advocating or debating such a practice only agreeing that we don't have that definition and that it would be very useful. There must be a survival mechanism for the Logi, even if it was logi's didn't have a side arm because they all had a active energy shield they could throw up... but since that is equipment like that wouldn't be suit specific.... so nevermind. But we know where we want to go. Logis as a class must excel in one or two of the traits that offer a mechanism to live in a battle. AND We need to be more that a pack mule with a specialty in 1 piece of gear. So I'm on board with most suggestions to implement that defining. I wanted best regens but best EWAR is OK too if there is some increase in survivability. As a few others have posted the roles all need definition and some qualities that make them different that then allow us to customize styles with those benefits. Will we agree as a community? I doubt it, but with an official CCP proposal at least we would know what they are willing to look at and then we could work on ideas from there. Currently we have ideas from all over the board covering quite a full spectrum of solutions from a lighter logi to a heavier logi simply because we all see the suit handling differently and CCP has muddied the waters with stat and story values that don't nail down the class. I'm all for open game play and breaking things, but first want the balance conversation that can come from defining each class. Before that can happen CCP needs to decide what it's 'core' is going to be. The first suits newer players will be driven to get in to. Mediums? Assault + Logistics? Then define those two (combat vs support),and balance appropriately. And after those suits are balanced,then do the other more niche roles. By balancing their core suits properly they can balance the fringe suits easier. For example: Assaults are good for eHP,sents are better,but worse for speed. Logistics is good for eWAR and hacking,but scouts are good at evasion and sabotage (also hacking) via stealth,but worse for eWAR. Fringe suits would be for very specific purposes. While core suits would be for generalist purposes. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 736	Posted - 2015.02.21 02:02:00 - [1293] - Quote Meee One wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross would know better than I, but Scouts are very likely UP at the moment. An increase in GA Logi grade scans would render Scouts obsolete. I'm of the opinion that the GA Logi precision bonus should be toned down, or the bonus replaced with something logistics related and given to the AM Scout. The AM Scout has had no competitive function since Falloff killed passive recon, and active recon seems a much more appropriate role for a Scout than a Logi. Further, a maximum of two periodic, overpowered scans would be 100% less overpowered than 4. If the GA Logi scan bonus were going to be replaced, what would you want in its stead? Tbh,Gal logis have 0 other options. Gal have 0 other equipment that their logi can be good with. So i would have 0 other suggestions regarding a replacement,unless CCP lets us know possible options. But as for scouts getting to be better with equipment than a logistics...the answer is a resounding NO! Besides that,it's Gal tech why would Amarr be better with it? Plus scouts are supposed to be niche anyway. Used as a last resort,just read their description FFS it basically sums up to "assault with dampening instead of eHP meant to sneak by enemies". Consider the following as well,each scanner takes 15-30 seconds,with 4 you sacrifice a lot of possible WP through lost equipment. As well as leaving yourself without aid through hives and idle through cooldown timers. It's actually a pretty bad sacrifice IMO. I don't run scouts,but wouldn't a bonus to cardiac regs be more in-line with its current bonuses? Run in,reveal enemies,run out or around them. It would overcome its weakness with oodles of stamina. ------ To address your question specifically... There's obviously only 1 valid replacement,repair rate on the repair tool. If CCP adds different repair tools,shield(blue),hybrid(blue and gold),to go along with the armor (gold) one we currently have.(just change beam colors) That's when you get the chance to replace it with a worthwhile bonus. Armor repair tool: -Amarr would have the longest range -Gal would have the highest repair rate Shields: -Cal would have the longest range -Min would have the highest repair rate -or- Shields: -Cal would have the highest repair rate and longest range Hybrid (1/2 as effective as the others): -Min would have the highest repair rate and longest range. But as it currently stands i'd say there isn't really a fair bonus to offer for poking their eyes out. That being said I would like to clarify that logi bonuses should not only be reptools. Not that MeeeOne is suggesting that, only that latecomers to the thread may not get that. A repairtool only bonuse does not fit the overall equipment focus of the logi. For the Gal Logi... I have to disagree with you Adipem. You have undoubtably been in a conversation about "everything needs a counter". And I agree. A fully maxed scout with 4 dampeners and the racial bonus to dampening should have a chance to escape a scan because the entire build is dedicated to it. To that same end a GalLogi with a native EWAR and not active scanner should be able to pick up most things, but dedicating every slot to precision it should weed out every scout. My opinion - I believe that LOGI should be better ewar scanning. You may feel that if both opponents were maxed that the scout should win - that's fine, but I am saying it should be a dedicated fit, no scout with 1 or 2 damps should beat a GalLogi with 1 or two precision. That is where I see it. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 736	Posted - 2015.02.21 02:09:00 - [1294] - Quote Meee One wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Is it possible to love you more? I doubt it - You are nailing this discussion right now! "Where does CCP see the Logi Role" is the perfect question because we don't see the Eve side of the role reflected in Dust514. - I'm not advocating or debating such a practice only agreeing that we don't have that definition and that it would be very useful. There must be a survival mechanism for the Logi, even if it was logi's didn't have a side arm because they all had a active energy shield they could throw up... but since that is equipment like that wouldn't be suit specific.... so nevermind. But we know where we want to go. Logis as a class must excel in one or two of the traits that offer a mechanism to live in a battle. AND We need to be more that a pack mule with a specialty in 1 piece of gear. So I'm on board with most suggestions to implement that defining. I wanted best regens but best EWAR is OK too if there is some increase in survivability. As a few others have posted the roles all need definition and some qualities that make them different that then allow us to customize styles with those benefits. Will we agree as a community? I doubt it, but with an official CCP proposal at least we would know what they are willing to look at and then we could work on ideas from there. Currently we have ideas from all over the board covering quite a full spectrum of solutions from a lighter logi to a heavier logi simply because we all see the suit handling differently and CCP has muddied the waters with stat and story values that don't nail down the class. I'm all for open game play and breaking things, but first want the balance conversation that can come from defining each class. Before that can happen CCP needs to decide what it's 'core' is going to be. The first suits newer players will be driven to get in to. Mediums? Assault + Logistics? Then define those two (combat vs support),and balance appropriately. And after those suits are balanced,then do the other more niche roles. By balancing their core suits properly they can balance the fringe suits easier. For example: Assaults are good for eHP,sents are better,but worse for speed. Logistics is good for eWAR and hacking,but scouts are good at evasion and sabotage (also hacking) via stealth,but worse for eWAR. Fringe suits would be for very specific purposes. While core suits would be for generalist purposes. AGREE that CCP skipped over defenitions. I never even look at the core (basic?) suits because of the lack of bonuses. I always opted for a leveling system that took your cumulative bonuses and that the basic suits carried a racial and frame bonus. then the class bonus would come into play as a person specialized. I can see your point. but In my mind I never see the basics as a choice I just see specialized on the battlefield.... where else would a logi fit? Weird situation to think about. If Basic Frames were worthwhile... the whole game experience would change for newbros. For oldbros it just means another bonus and if the basics are cheaper... but what else would be the draw? Not a discussion I'm ready to get into. I'd have do to alot more thinking about it. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1518	Posted - 2015.02.21 02:12:00 - [1295] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: That is some good thinking :) Querry: Your Gal multiplier makes them repair more per cycle, shortens cycle, or... i'm sorry I guess i'm just not getting it. I'm confused because Minmatar are the current master reppers and this sounds like it would change that. The Min base amount advantage seems like it would still push the max. For some numbers to help my mind with your idea, it sounds like this to me: (Imaginary numbers) repair tool base rep of 50 hp per cycle. (hpc) 1 cycle = 1second. Heat build up is 10 per sec. (h) Buildup maxed at 10. So, 10 seconds of repping = 100h = fully warmed up. Warmup multipliers could be at diff levels, but we will choose 50h and 100h for our example. 1.5x at 50 heat. and 2x at 100 heat Cooldown of 5heat per sec when not repping. Full cooldown in 20seconds I am not exploring the possibilty of race specific tools at this moment - too complicated for an example. Minmatar starting bonus of 25% pushes initial repair tool to starting rep rate of 0s- 0h - 62.5hpc 5s - 50h - 93.75hpc 10s -100h - 125hpc Amarr bonus of 50% to heat build up. (h) 0s - 0h - 50hpc 2.5s - 50h - 75hpc 5s - 100h - 100hpc Caldari 50% bonus to -cooldown. Cooldown is 40seconds wow, that could be a reason to use Caldari always staying near the top of the rep cycle power. 0s - 0h - 50hpc 5s - 50h - 75hpc 10s - 100h - 100hpc Gallente 25% bonus to rep rate multiplier. 0s - 0h - 50hpc 5s - 50h - 93.75 (1.875 rate) 10s - 100h - 125 (2.5 rate) OK, so I get it now. It was not as drastic as I thought. I just needed the numbers to speak to me and get it out to logic the situation. A warm up could be useful and make repping a new kind of fun, and the race would really bring a new dynamic that does not add Complexity - and that is what I think we like. Have some cool ideas but don't make it complicated for the newbros, but add some flavor for the oldbros. I approve this idea. Exactly. Cal and Gal can out repair in an extended battle,but Amarr and Min benefit from burst battles. Balanced with their racial enemy. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1518	Posted - 2015.02.21 02:18:00 - [1296] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Meee One wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Is it possible to love you more? I doubt it - You are nailing this discussion right now! "Where does CCP see the Logi Role" is the perfect question because we don't see the Eve side of the role reflected in Dust514. - I'm not advocating or debating such a practice only agreeing that we don't have that definition and that it would be very useful. There must be a survival mechanism for the Logi, even if it was logi's didn't have a side arm because they all had a active energy shield they could throw up... but since that is equipment like that wouldn't be suit specific.... so nevermind. But we know where we want to go. Logis as a class must excel in one or two of the traits that offer a mechanism to live in a battle. AND We need to be more that a pack mule with a specialty in 1 piece of gear. So I'm on board with most suggestions to implement that defining. I wanted best regens but best EWAR is OK too if there is some increase in survivability. As a few others have posted the roles all need definition and some qualities that make them different that then allow us to customize styles with those benefits. Will we agree as a community? I doubt it, but with an official CCP proposal at least we would know what they are willing to look at and then we could work on ideas from there. Currently we have ideas from all over the board covering quite a full spectrum of solutions from a lighter logi to a heavier logi simply because we all see the suit handling differently and CCP has muddied the waters with stat and story values that don't nail down the class. I'm all for open game play and breaking things, but first want the balance conversation that can come from defining each class. Before that can happen CCP needs to decide what it's 'core' is going to be. The first suits newer players will be driven to get in to. Mediums? Assault + Logistics? Then define those two (combat vs support),and balance appropriately. And after those suits are balanced,then do the other more niche roles. By balancing their core suits properly they can balance the fringe suits easier. For example: Assaults are good for eHP,sents are better,but worse for speed. Logistics is good for eWAR and hacking,but scouts are good at evasion and sabotage (also hacking) via stealth,but worse for eWAR. Fringe suits would be for very specific purposes. While core suits would be for generalist purposes. AGREE that CCP skipped over defenitions. I never even look at the core (basic?) suits because of the lack of bonuses. I always opted for a leveling system that took your cumulative bonuses and that the basic suits carried a racial and frame bonus. then the class bonus would come into play as a person specialized. I can see your point. but In my mind I never see the basics as a choice I just see specialized on the battlefield.... where else would a logi fit? Weird situation to think about. If Basic Frames were worthwhile... the whole game experience would change for newbros. For oldbros it just means another bonus and if the basics are cheaper... but what else would be the draw? Not a discussion I'm ready to get into. I'd have do to alot more thinking about it. Core as in suits CCP wants players to use over 90% of the time,not basics. Basics are terrible to force players into specialist suit. If CCP wants 90% of the suits to be assaults and logistics,they need to balance around that idea. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 736	Posted - 2015.02.21 02:24:00 - [1297] - Quote Meee One wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Meee One wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Is it possible to love you more? I doubt it - You are nailing this discussion right now! "Where does CCP see the Logi Role" is the perfect question because we don't see the Eve side of the role reflected in Dust514. - I'm not advocating or debating such a practice only agreeing that we don't have that definition and that it would be very useful. There must be a survival mechanism for the Logi, even if it was logi's didn't have a side arm because they all had a active energy shield they could throw up... but since that is equipment like that wouldn't be suit specific.... so nevermind. But we know where we want to go. Logis as a class must excel in one or two of the traits that offer a mechanism to live in a battle. AND We need to be more that a pack mule with a specialty in 1 piece of gear. So I'm on board with most suggestions to implement that defining. I wanted best regens but best EWAR is OK too if there is some increase in survivability. As a few others have posted the roles all need definition and some qualities that make them different that then allow us to customize styles with those benefits. Will we agree as a community? I doubt it, but with an official CCP proposal at least we would know what they are willing to look at and then we could work on ideas from there. Currently we have ideas from all over the board covering quite a full spectrum of solutions from a lighter logi to a heavier logi simply because we all see the suit handling differently and CCP has muddied the waters with stat and story values that don't nail down the class. I'm all for open game play and breaking things, but first want the balance conversation that can come from defining each class. Before that can happen CCP needs to decide what it's 'core' is going to be. The first suits newer players will be driven to get in to. Mediums? Assault + Logistics? Then define those two (combat vs support),and balance appropriately. And after those suits are balanced,then do the other more niche roles. By balancing their core suits properly they can balance the fringe suits easier. For example: Assaults are good for eHP,sents are better,but worse for speed. Logistics is good for eWAR and hacking,but scouts are good at evasion and sabotage (also hacking) via stealth,but worse for eWAR. Fringe suits would be for very specific purposes. While core suits would be for generalist purposes. AGREE that CCP skipped over defenitions. I never even look at the core (basic?) suits because of the lack of bonuses. I always opted for a leveling system that took your cumulative bonuses and that the basic suits carried a racial and frame bonus. then the class bonus would come into play as a person specialized. I can see your point. but In my mind I never see the basics as a choice I just see specialized on the battlefield.... where else would a logi fit? Weird situation to think about. If Basic Frames were worthwhile... the whole game experience would change for newbros. For oldbros it just means another bonus and if the basics are cheaper... but what else would be the draw? Not a discussion I'm ready to get into. I'd have do to alot more thinking about it. Core as in suits CCP wants players to use over 90% of the time,not basics. Basics are terrible to force players into specialist suit. If CCP wants 90% of the suits to be assaults and logistics,they need to balance around that idea. Wow. Honestly I had no idea that this was a thing. Seriously? CCP wants 90% of the players to be Assault and Logi? I could deal with fewer scouts - they annoy the hell out of me (and gank me to no end) - but fewer heavies and commandos too?.... Really? I mean I'm sorry to derail the thread a little bit here it's just that I thought I was caught up on most things and this just seems out there for them to want people to play logis. I get that they want the ASSAULT to have the biggest draw but I was thinking more like a 50% max.... .... huh ..... I guess that's something new to think about. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1519	Posted - 2015.02.21 02:41:00 - [1298] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Wow. Honestly I had no idea that this was a thing. Seriously? CCP wants 90% of the players to be Assault and Logi? I could deal with fewer scouts - they annoy the hell out of me (and gank me to no end) - but fewer heavies and commandos too?.... Really? I mean I'm sorry to derail the thread a little bit here it's just that I thought I was caught up on most things and this just seems out there for them to want people to play logis. I get that they want the ASSAULT to have the biggest draw but I was thinking more like a 50% max.... .... huh ..... I guess that's something new to think about. Well,90% might be stretching it. But it was an example of how common core suits would be. Until CCP finds that core and balances around it,suits will always be lopsided. Whether that core is mediums,lights,or heavies has yet to be defined. But if it ever is,you can expect to see less and less of the non-core suits. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6814	Posted - 2015.02.21 04:42:00 - [1299] - Quote Meee One wrote: These players often get upset about being scanned while flanking,preventing sneak attacks AKA what scanners were meant to do. I appreciate your earlier feedback. It hadn't occurred to me that no other Gallente equipment exists, and I agree wholeheartedly agree that Scouts shouldn't be out-EQ'ing Logis. So that we're clear, I'm not upset, and I don't hate Logis. I simply believe that the GA Logi precision bonus to Active Scans is imbalanced. I'll attempt to explain my reasoning concisely ... The need for 15 dB scanners to "sniff out" lurking Scouts was replaced by Falloff. Today, any unit can fit a precision enhancer and protect his own flank. An SG or NK assassin on the prowl -- even when successfully evading LoS -- has his position revealed on squad TacNet with each and every takedown. Scouts are now blind as bats while cloaked, and they are required to decloak well in advance of any attack. Long story short, sneaking has been greatly diminished over the past few builds; it stands to reason that the hard counters to sneaking should follow suit. Then there's the 21 dB, 200M, 90 degree scans. One unit with the power to illuminate entire Ambush matches. For an entire team. And at zero to no risk. Just spam those scans and stick with the blob! There's a good reason why Nyain San stompers field a GA Logi. And these massively powerful scans do more than accelerate pubstomps; they also serve to perpetuate King HP and limit build build variety. Why would an Assault even bother running damps with these things on the field? That's my two cents on the present state of GalLogi Scans; I could go on, but this isn't my thread and I don't intend to commandeer it. I hope you guys find my reasoning reasonable. Perhaps there are other ways to deescalate GalLogi scans without altogether replacing the bonus ... Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1530	Posted - 2015.02.21 15:28:00 - [1300] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Meee One wrote: These players often get upset about being scanned while flanking,preventing sneak attacks AKA what scanners were meant to do. I appreciate your earlier feedback. It hadn't occurred to me that no other Gallente equipment exists, and I agree wholeheartedly agree that Scouts shouldn't be out-EQ'ing Logis. So that we're clear, I'm not upset, and I don't hate Logis. I simply believe that the GA Logi precision bonus to Active Scans is imbalanced. I'll attempt to explain my reasoning concisely ... The need for 15 dB scanners to "sniff out" lurking Scouts was replaced by Falloff. Today, any unit can fit a precision enhancer and protect his own flank. An SG or NK assassin on the prowl -- even when successfully evading LoS -- has his position revealed on squad TacNet with each and every takedown. Scouts are now blind as bats while cloaked, and they are required to decloak well in advance of any attack. Long story short, sneaking has been greatly diminished over the past few builds; it stands to reason that the hard counters to sneaking should follow suit. Then there's the 21 dB, 200M, 90 degree scans. One unit with the power to illuminate entire Ambush matches. For an entire team. And at zero to no risk. Just spam those scans and stick with the blob! There's a good reason why Nyain San stompers field a GA Logi. And these massively powerful scans do more than accelerate pubstomps; they also serve to perpetuate King HP and limit build build variety. Why would an Assault even bother running damps with these things on the field? That's my two cents on the present state of GalLogi Scans; I could go on, but this isn't my thread and I don't intend to commandeer it. I hope you guys find my reasoning reasonable. Perhaps there are other ways to deescalate GalLogi scans without altogether replacing the bonus ... But don't those 200m scans have a 30 second cooldown? That and you must consider the logistics suit itself. Amarr has the most eHP at 300. Min has the lowest at 240.(the same as an AM scout) Yet all logistics are still slower than their basic frame,and even 160 eHP advantaged assault counterpart. Logistics sacrifices speed and eHP for those unique advantages with equipment,yet can cost more to die faster. For example: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/0/7831 That fit is just with the cost of equipment. 0 modules,0 weapons,just equipment. Logistics must pay more to have less eHP,less speed,less stamina,less offensive power,less eWAR. And logistics is singled out first every time. So IMHO for all the sacrifices logistics has to make i believe they each should be game breakingly OP with their respective equipment. That aside there's really nothing that can replace precision,exept cooldowns. So take your pick,super scans every once in a while -or- weak scans all the time. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6820	Posted - 2015.02.21 16:17:00 - [1301] - Quote Meee One wrote: ... and you must consider the logistics suit itself. Amarr has the most eHP at 300. Min has the lowest at 240.(the same as an AM scout) Yet all logistics are still slower than their basic frame,and even 160 eHP advantaged assault counterpart. Current Speed/Tank Paradigm Tank: Heavy > Commando > Assault > Logi > Scout Speed: Heavy < Commando < Logi < Assault < Scout Balanced Speed/Tank Paradigm Tank: Heavy > Commando > Assault > Logi > Scout Speed: Heavy < Commando < Assault < Logi < Scout ^ I've personally proposed this 5 or 6 times now. I'm of the opinion that Assault and Logi speed profiles should be swapped. Sounds like you and I might be in agreement. Meee One wrote: That aside there's really nothing that can replace precision,exept cooldowns. So take your pick,super scans every once in a while -or- weak scans all the time. This is an interesting idea. Swapping precision for cooldown would deescalate the Counter Sneak side of Sneak vs Counter Sneak, and a higher precision baseline for competitive scans (especially if more frequent) would encourage Assaults to drop King HP for damps (good for build variety). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6820	Posted - 2015.02.21 16:54:00 - [1302] - Quote Ok! Have some tentative numbers for you. Assumption GA Logi bonus to Active Scanner Precision replaced by Active Scanner Cooldown. Active Scanner Overhaul 46 dB Scanners ---> 40dB: Commando beats w/1 cmp damp, Heavy w/2 36 dB Scanners ---> 33dB: Assault & Logi beats w/1 cmp damp, Commando w/2 28 dB Scanners ---> 25dB: Scouts beat w/1 cmp damp, Assault w/2, Logi w/3 20 dB Scanners ---> 18dB: MN/AM Scout beat w/2 cmp damp + proto cloak (on) What do you guys think? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 825	Posted - 2015.02.21 18:20:00 - [1303] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Ok! Have some tentative numbers for you. Assumption GA Logi bonus to Active Scanner Precision replaced by Active Scanner Cooldown. Active Scanner Overhaul 46 dB Scanners ---> 40dB: Commando beats w/1 cmp damp, Heavy w/2 36 dB Scanners ---> 33dB: Assault & Logi beats w/1 cmp damp, Commando w/2 28 dB Scanners ---> 25dB: Scouts beat w/1 cmp damp, Assault w/2, Logi w/3 20 dB Scanners ---> 18dB: MN/AM Scout beat w/2 cmp damp + proto cloak (on) What do you guys think? I think existing GalLogi bonusing and Active Scans are fine, Stealth scouts who damp and sneak are not detectable (lookin at you,sub 18db GalScouts). The "Cocentric Rings" passive currently in effect does not provide the sort of flanking protection you describe, since the distances are easily covered by all scouts' movement speeds while individual suit turning speeds may or may not save the victim. EWAR right now across frames is more balanced than it has been practically ever, so the root core of that balance should be left alone. Scouts need to behave stealthly and not just "dress" stealthly (add damps)? Working well, as intended. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1533	Posted - 2015.02.21 19:00:00 - [1304] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Ok! Have some tentative numbers for you. Assumption GA Logi bonus to Active Scanner Precision replaced by Active Scanner Cooldown. Active Scanner Overhaul 46 dB Scanners ---> 40dB: Commando beats w/1 cmp damp, Heavy w/2 36 dB Scanners ---> 33dB: Assault & Logi beats w/1 cmp damp, Commando w/2 28 dB Scanners ---> 25dB: Scouts beat w/1 cmp damp, Assault w/2, Logi w/3 20 dB Scanners ---> 18dB: MN/AM Scout beat w/2 cmp damp + proto cloak (on) What do you guys think? Well,that looks good but i have a more proactive solution. What if scanners had capacitors like cloaks? Instead of tapping the shoot button and getting constant images for a snapshot motion. How about making scanners more active? Make the capacitor last the entire scan length,and have it where a scanner user can hold the shoot button to get active scans. Or release the shoot button to stop scanning and let the capacitor recharge. Active scans for active information,and snapshot scans for snapshot information. Cooldowns would have to be decreased to compensate the new danger it leaves the user in. That change,with your change would be pretty cool IMO. And Gal logistics can reduce the time it takes to recharge. Pretty sweet paired up together. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 826	Posted - 2015.02.21 19:31:00 - [1305] - Quote Meee One wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Ok! Have some tentative numbers for you. Assumption GA Logi bonus to Active Scanner Precision replaced by Active Scanner Cooldown. Active Scanner Overhaul 46 dB Scanners ---> 40dB: Commando beats w/1 cmp damp, Heavy w/2 36 dB Scanners ---> 33dB: Assault & Logi beats w/1 cmp damp, Commando w/2 28 dB Scanners ---> 25dB: Scouts beat w/1 cmp damp, Assault w/2, Logi w/3 20 dB Scanners ---> 18dB: MN/AM Scout beat w/2 cmp damp + proto cloak (on) What do you guys think? Well,that looks good but i have a more proactive solution. What if scanners had capacitors like cloaks? Instead of tapping the shoot button and getting constant images for a snapshot motion. How about making scanners more active? Make the capacitor last the entire scan length,and have it where a scanner user can hold the shoot button to get active scans. Or release the shoot button to stop scanning and let the capacitor recharge. Active scans for active information,and snapshot scans for snapshot information. Cooldowns would have to be decreased to compensate the new danger it leaves the user in. That change,with your change would be pretty cool IMO. And Gal logistics can reduce the time it takes to recharge. Pretty sweet paired up together. Dude. They're not broken. Why fix them? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1533	Posted - 2015.02.22 00:15:00 - [1306] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Ok! Have some tentative numbers for you. Assumption GA Logi bonus to Active Scanner Precision replaced by Active Scanner Cooldown. Active Scanner Overhaul 46 dB Scanners ---> 40dB: Commando beats w/1 cmp damp, Heavy w/2 36 dB Scanners ---> 33dB: Assault & Logi beats w/1 cmp damp, Commando w/2 28 dB Scanners ---> 25dB: Scouts beat w/1 cmp damp, Assault w/2, Logi w/3 20 dB Scanners ---> 18dB: MN/AM Scout beat w/2 cmp damp + proto cloak (on) What do you guys think? Well,that looks good but i have a more proactive solution. What if scanners had capacitors like cloaks? Instead of tapping the shoot button and getting constant images for a snapshot motion. How about making scanners more active? Make the capacitor last the entire scan length,and have it where a scanner user can hold the shoot button to get active scans. Or release the shoot button to stop scanning and let the capacitor recharge. Active scans for active information,and snapshot scans for snapshot information. Cooldowns would have to be decreased to compensate the new danger it leaves the user in. That change,with your change would be pretty cool IMO. And Gal logistics can reduce the time it takes to recharge. Pretty sweet paired up together. Dude. They're not broken. Why fix them? No one is implying that. It just makes sense that as long as you scan you get updated information,and if you stop you don't. It potentially makes scanners more versatile by allowing multiple snapshots to find enemies,and longer scans to keep track of them. Instead of firing blanks then waiting for a 30 second cooldown to try again. As well as extending the possibility of WP through intel kill assists. Plus you know as well as i do CCP will never listen to logistics regarding equipment,they'll listen to everyone else. So its not like anyone influential will read this anyway. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 826	Posted - 2015.02.22 01:23:00 - [1307] - Quote Just because the thread isn't littered with blue tags doesn't mean no one worthwhile is listening, just that they haven't responded. Active scans are fine, GalLogi bonuses are fine and Scouts (by and large) are fine. Don't let this thread turn into the Scout wishlist for stats, this whole thing about Active Scans being a problem is RepTool capacitor/cooldown QQ only for scanners. It's bs. The sort of bs that if we start addressing it the limited resources we have will go to addressing it instead of the laundrylist of other things that are actually broken or poorly performing (like base stats). Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 826	Posted - 2015.02.22 01:29:00 - [1308] - Quote And I'm kind of amazed you'd entertain the subject at all considering that it stems from the input of a proven purveyor of false or otherwise misleading information. In here. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6827	Posted - 2015.02.22 02:42:00 - [1309] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: And I'm kind of amazed you'd entertain the subject at all considering that it stems from the input of a proven purveyor of false or otherwise misleading information. In here. 2. Be respectful toward others at all times. The purpose of the DUST 514 forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of DUST 514. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others. 4. Personal attacks are prohibited. Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated. 5. Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. 22. Post constructively. Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve DUST 514 provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding DUST 514 and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 826	Posted - 2015.02.22 04:08:00 - [1310] - Quote Page 40 something wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177251&find=unread Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey. TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6830	Posted - 2015.02.22 04:46:00 - [1311] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Dude. They're not broken. Why fix them? Sneaking has been greatly diminished. * Cloak Active dampening bonus was substantially reduced. * Cloak Duration was substantially reduced. * Cloaked units are now TacNet blind. * Cloaked units must now decloak seconds in advance performing any action. * If/when they fit plates, Scouts now suffer steep mobility penalty. * Falloff. GA Logi scans were balanced against stealth units which no longer exist. If they were balanced before, it is not possible that they are balanced now. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6830	Posted - 2015.02.22 05:00:00 - [1312] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Page 40 something wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177251&find=unread Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey. TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request. I came here to solve a problem, not to play games with trolls. I don't know and don't care to know whatever it is you're getting at above. If you've something constructive to contribute, I'm all ears, but consider your hostilities ignored. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Ryanjr TUG KnightKiller's inc. 14	Posted - 2015.02.22 05:12:00 - [1313] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Page 40 something wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177251&find=unread Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey. TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request. Ehglish Please...... "I come in peace I didn't bring artillery, but I'm pleading with you with tears in eyes if you fuck me I kill you all"
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1534	Posted - 2015.02.22 14:00:00 - [1314] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Just because the thread isn't littered with blue tags doesn't mean no one worthwhile is listening, just that they haven't responded. Active scans are fine, GalLogi bonuses are fine and Scouts (by and large) are fine. Don't let this thread turn into the Scout wishlist for stats, this whole thing about Active Scans being a problem is RepTool capacitor/cooldown QQ only for scanners. It's bs. The sort of bs that if we start addressing it the limited resources we have will go to addressing it instead of the laundrylist of other things that are actually broken or poorly performing (like base stats). As for scan DB CCP will come to their own conclusion,with or without us. And i wasn't talking about DB,i was talking about mechanics. The function of the device. Doing a single split second scan to get 5 seconds of information has always been confusing to me. Doing a split second scan to get split second information makes more sense. And the ability to stop scanning and refocus your attention sounds good too. IMHO 30 seconds is a long time to wait if you scanned the wrong area. I'm not saying active scans are a problem i'm saying the current system is too punishing for an accidental misfire -or- misplaced scan. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1534	Posted - 2015.02.22 14:02:00 - [1315] - Quote Ryanjr TUG wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Page 40 something wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177251&find=unread Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey. TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request. Ehglish Please...... He's saying someone tryed to get eWAR changed and tried to make it look balanced but it actually favored scouts. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1534	Posted - 2015.02.22 14:24:00 - [1316] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Dude. They're not broken. Why fix them? GA Logi scans are balanced against stealth units which no longer exist. * Cloak Active dampening bonus was substantially reduced. * Cloak Duration was substantially reduced. * Cloaked units are now TacNet blind. * Cloaked units must now decloak seconds in advance performing any action. * If/when they fit plates, Scouts now suffer steep mobility penalty. * Falloff. If GA Logi scans were balanced before, it is not possible that they are balanced now. I may not like scouts,but i can sympathize with your objective. Back when CCP buffed assaults by 160 eHP and 8 slots with 0 speed reduction. I made several posts (1 in GD,1 in FB+R) asking what logistics would be getting,seeing as CCP said logistics would be getting a pass at the same time previously. I protested loudly about logistics being ignored. I was trolled,insulted,and bombarded with "slayer-logi" and "logis are support they're supposed to suck". And i,not the players insulting me,got banned for a month. It was before this thread was even made. And logistics still sucks now as it did waaay back then. So yes,i understand the struggle to keep your class relevant. That being said,i only run logistics so my opinion on the plight of scouts means nothing. I can only competently suggest changes in my area of knowledge. So i'll leave the eWAR talk to other folks. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 148	Posted - 2015.02.22 17:50:00 - [1317] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I came here to try to solve a problem, not to play games with trolls. I don't know and don't care to know whatever it is you're getting at above. If you've something constructive to contribute, I'm all ears, but consider your hostilities ignored. Adipem, I think what el OPERATOR is implying is that you need to take your scout QQ about scanners back to the scout thread. It has nothing to do with improving the logistics class and does not need to be discussed in this thread. (If I'm wrong el OPERATOR I apoligize now) What I'm saying is stop trying to derail this thread with garbage that does not directly benefit the improvement of the logistics class. If it is so important to you, then start another thread in F&B and have a proper discussion there. If you want to help the Logistics class, great stay and participate with ideas that benefit us. If you want to QQ about the UP scout class do it else where. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6837	Posted - 2015.02.22 18:50:00 - [1318] - Quote Hi Mr Goo, I suspect that my goals and your goals are more intimately connected than you realize. Might the Logistics Class have been buffed sooner if its OP elements hadn't played leading roles in both pubstomps and PC? OP Heavy/Logi blobs and OP GalLogi scans are two very goods reasons why not to buff the Logistics class. Your goal (a better Logi) and my goal (balanced EWAR) are two variables in the same equation. We could be working together on this; is better balance not a mutual goal? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Dementia Maniaclease Dust 514 Elite Ops 0	Posted - 2015.02.22 22:10:00 - [1319] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: - Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive maximum nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and 5% to repair amount per leveland +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to maximum spawn count per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level I agree with this... And more HP, not a lot more just a touch
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 828	Posted - 2015.02.23 00:14:00 - [1320] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Page 40 something wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177251&find=unread Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey. TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request. I came here to try to solve a problem, not to play games with trolls. I don't know and don't care to know whatever it is you're getting at above. If you've something constructive to contribute, I'm all ears, but consider your hostilities ignored. Only problem I'm seeing on the topic is your repeated insistence that it exists as a problem. I'm not trolling, as others have pointed out that thread very clearly stars you putting forth "facts" and "figures" that are corrupt and conclusions just as corrupt. Now, after the the scout class has undergone several minor adjustments, the GalLogi and scanner and bonus are nicely balanced vs. Scouts. Every match has scouts, those scouts are effective when being scouts and it happens without 90% of frames on the field being scouts to combat scouts. This was not the case previously. But this is the case now. IE, theres nothing broken or otherwise determinant that GalLogis or scanners need fixing. So take your "balance proposals" elsewhere . This thread had suffered under their distractionary deadweight too much already. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 828	Posted - 2015.02.23 00:22:00 - [1321] - Quote Meee One wrote: Ryanjr TUG wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Page 40 something wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177251&find=unread Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey. TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request. Ehglish Please...... He's saying someone tryed to get eWAR changed and tried to make it look balanced but it actually favored scouts. Gets it. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 828	Posted - 2015.02.23 00:24:00 - [1322] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I came here to try to solve a problem, not to play games with trolls. I don't know and don't care to know whatever it is you're getting at above. If you've something constructive to contribute, I'm all ears, but consider your hostilities ignored. Adipem, I think what el OPERATOR is implying is that you need to take your scout QQ about scanners back to the scout thread. It has nothing to do with improving the logistics class and does not need to be discussed in this thread. (If I'm wrong el OPERATOR I apoligize now) What I'm saying is stop trying to derail this thread with garbage that does not directly benefit the improvement of the logistics class. If it is so important to you, then start another thread in F&B and have a proper discussion there. If you want to help the Logistics class, great stay and participate with ideas that benefit us. If you want to QQ about the UP scout class do it else where. Gets it. Except the part about staying in the thread, that invite was rescinded the minute it was shown that the data being presented could not be accepted in good faith. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 150	Posted - 2015.02.23 11:11:00 - [1323] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Hi Mr Goo, I suspect that my goals and your goals are more intimately connected than you realize. OP Heavy/Logi blobs and OP GalLogi scans are two very goods reasons why not to buff the Logistics class, and the Logistics class might have been buffed sooner if its OP elements weren't playing leading roles in pubstomps and PC. Your expressed goal (a better Logi) and my expressed goal (balanced EWAR) are two variables in the same equation. We could be working together on this, and I see no reason why we shouldn't so long as balance remains a mutual goal. again you need to take your beef with the scanner into your own thread and discuss it properly there. Your feelings about the logistics class are clearly stated in the second statement of your reply. Both of these are very easily overcome by team work. No problem there, unless you don't play nicely with others. Now I will ask you again not to derail this thread with your QQ. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 150	Posted - 2015.02.23 11:23:00 - [1324] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Gets it. Except the part about staying in the thread, that invite was rescinded the minute it was shown that the data being presented could not be accepted in good faith. Trying to play nicely , There are some very good suggestions from our brothers in arms that do not play the logistics class. I wanted to extend him the courtesy of being one of them. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 454	Posted - 2015.02.23 11:40:00 - [1325] - Quote Meee One wrote: Your post reads like a QQ post from GD. Logistics takes "no skill","it's boring",etc. And i'm not falling for it. I've found your problem (see underlined). You either: -are limiting your attention to repairing purposely -are running frequently with a camping squad -have never run a front-line logistics,because repping on the front-line is much more exciting than on the back-line where no opponents are -are a bad logistics for keeping your repair tool on a fully healed ally while others need reps too The problem isn't with the grossly underpowered repair tools,it's with your playstyle. Try running solo in ambush and Dom,but avoid skirm like a plague. I'll agree to an overheat right after all weapons get one,because the repair tools are the only things that logistics has that isn't nerfed to smithereens. And a "lolskillful" overheat would destroy them. You obviously have no Idea how I play the game. I do not run with heavies, because it's pretty boring in general. If I latch to heavies or other slayers, It's mostly to get a lot of skillpoints while having a booster active, to cap faster or reach a skill target. I think there should be a mechanic that discourages constant latching on to a slayer, therefore I propose the overheat mechanic. The overheat wouldn't hurt anybody who is constantly switching targets on the frontline, so what's your problem? The overheat would just discourage the behaviour you are describing, get it? The changes I propose, would make the reptool even more powerful in the hands of a non lazy logi!
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 150	Posted - 2015.02.23 12:26:00 - [1326] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Meee One wrote: Your post reads like a QQ post from GD. Logistics takes "no skill","it's boring",etc. And i'm not falling for it. I've found your problem (see underlined). You either: -are limiting your attention to repairing purposely -are running frequently with a camping squad -have never run a front-line logistics,because repping on the front-line is much more exciting than on the back-line where no opponents are -are a bad logistics for keeping your repair tool on a fully healed ally while others need reps too The problem isn't with the grossly underpowered repair tools,it's with your playstyle. Try running solo in ambush and Dom,but avoid skirm like a plague. I'll agree to an overheat right after all weapons get one,because the repair tools are the only things that logistics has that isn't nerfed to smithereens. And a "lolskillful" overheat would destroy them. You obviously have no Idea how I play the game. I do not run with heavies, because it's pretty boring in general. If I latch to heavies or other slayers, It's mostly to get a lot of skillpoints while having a booster active, to cap faster or reach a skill target. I think there should be a mechanic that discourages constant latching on to a slayer, therefore I propose the overheat mechanic. The overheat wouldn't hurt anybody who is constantly switching targets on the frontline, so what's your problem? The overheat would just discourage the behaviour you are describing, get it? The changes I propose, would make the reptool even more powerful in the hands of a non lazy logi! I don't agree with an overheat on the repair tool. I do agree that there are to many logi's that stay latched on even when not needed, so they don't miss that extra 35 points for a kill. There needs to be something to discourage a perma latch when not receiving fire. Instead of the hard cap on WP we currently have now maybe change it to a diminishing returns system receiving 0 WP after a set time. lower the 35 guardian points to a 25 the same as a kill assist, and when repair time reaches 0 so do guardian points. The overheat/seize mechanic would be deadly. Imagine a large push on your objective, you have multiple people simultaneously attacking. Your heavy is using objects to block incoming fire as he is supposed to do and not continually pushing out, but letting them come to him. To keep him alive you have to keep the continuous stream on him. Now the overheat kicks in and 1second later your both dead. The overheat mechanic on weapons is different than on a repair tool simply because the attacker can choose to disengage and back off letting team members continue the push. A Repair tool in a defensive position is the only thing keeping both of you alive and you are not given a choice to stop repairing if you want to live. 1 individual against a heavy/logi combo should have no chance, except with a todays current meta of throwing a RE. 2 against a heavy/logi combo will be a fight if they work together. If they don't, they loose. Core Locus fully maxed with min bonus is 156.25 reps per second @ 11.25 meters. Six Kin Maxed with min bonus is 98.75 reps per second @22.5 meters VS Militia Assault Rifle no bonuses 370.8 Damage per second vs Armor (average weapon) Militia Laser Rifle no Bonuses 170 Damage per second vs Armor (worst weapon for armor) There is no way to out repair any weapon if there is 2 or more attacking simultaneously. With out using good communication, tactics, and a constant running repair tool. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 454	Posted - 2015.02.23 12:39:00 - [1327] - Quote Well, I proposed a relatively long period of constant repping (1min) that should be enough to fight of several incoing mercs (more than 2-3). If you play the overheated tool right, you would have even better chances to fight two incoming heavies at once. When on cooldown, you could give firesupport with the logi (you carry a weapon do you). I had good success using a MD in those situations, since it has a good shock and awe effect on many mercs. If you have two incoming MinSents with burst HMGs your Heavy is toast anyway, and you are better of to run your ass of and get to safety...
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2015.02.23 13:05:00 - [1328] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Well, I proposed a relatively long period of constant repping (1min) that should be enough to fight of several incoing mercs (more than 2-3). If you play the overheated tool right, you would have even better chances to fight two incoming heavies at once. When on cooldown, you could give firesupport with the logi (you carry a weapon do you). I had good success using a MD in those situations, since it has a good shock and awe effect on many mercs. If you have two incoming MinSents with burst HMGs your Heavy is toast anyway, and you are better of to run your ass of and get to safety... Should is the key word here, and when 1 minute is not long enough to stop a prolonged push your both dead. As soon as you overheat that small battle is over for your team, you loose the objective and have to retake it. And before you aak I have pro links down to spawn back in. Yes I have weapons and I use them when I have to. CR lvl 5 pro Assault lvl 5 pro Mass Driver lvl 5 pro Some points you have very little choice of running away, and when you are given the order by your commander to hold that point no matter what, YOU DON'T RUN AWAY. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 454	Posted - 2015.02.23 13:13:00 - [1329] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Well, I proposed a relatively long period of constant repping (1min) that should be enough to fight of several incoing mercs (more than 2-3). If you play the overheated tool right, you would have even better chances to fight two incoming heavies at once. When on cooldown, you could give firesupport with the logi (you carry a weapon do you). I had good success using a MD in those situations, since it has a good shock and awe effect on many mercs. If you have two incoming MinSents with burst HMGs your Heavy is toast anyway, and you are better of to run your ass of and get to safety... Should is the key word here, and when 1 minute is not long enough to stop a prolonged push your both dead. As soon as you overheat that small battle is over for your team, you loose the objective and have to retake it. And before you aak I have pro links down to spawn back in. Yes I have weapons and I use them when I have to. CR lvl 5 pro Assault lvl 5 pro Mass Driver lvl 5 pro Some points you have very little choice of running away, and when you are given the order by your commander to hold that point no matter what, YOU DON'T RUN AWAY. Well I was not proposing to run away when the going gets tough, I have never been known to do that, quite the contrary. My point is the uselessness of the reptool in certain situations. I'd rather have it crancking out more reps for a limited time, than it being constantly 'meh"... And do you really think that reptool is making a difference for your heavy when he has to counter two incoming burst HMGs that know what they're doing? I doubt it. I'd rather have the logi shoot the heavies too to soften them... and only switching to his tool just in time before my shields go down or for a push...
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2015.02.23 13:47:00 - [1330] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: My point is the uselessness of the reptool in certain situations. And do you really think that reptool is making a difference for your heavy when he has to counter two incoming burst HMGs that know what they're doing? I doubt it. I'd rather have the logi shoot the heavies too to soften them... and only switching to his tool just in time before my shields go down or for a push... These I do agree with, and try to do myself. No the rep tool is not going to make a difference vs 2 Burst HMG's But still no reason to to implement an overheat mechanism. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.

Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 454	Posted - 2015.02.23 14:24:00 - [1331] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: My point is the uselessness of the reptool in certain situations. And do you really think that reptool is making a difference for your heavy when he has to counter two incoming burst HMGs that know what they're doing? I doubt it. I'd rather have the logi shoot the heavies too to soften them... and only switching to his tool just in time before my shields go down or for a push... These I do agree with, and try to do myself. No the rep tool is not going to make a difference vs 2 Burst HMG's But still no reason to to implement an overheat mechanism. Well, I like it, because it give more capabilities, I wouldn't mind it being a variant (maybe specialist) that give more output, at the expenso of overheat. Thus performance and skill would show which variant would be used most...
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2015.02.23 14:33:00 - [1332] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Well, I like it, because it give more capabilities, I wouldn't mind it being a variant (maybe specialist) that give more output, at the expenso of overheat. Thus performance and skill would show which variant would be used most... I agree with a variant version, it is a great compromise. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1540	Posted - 2015.02.23 23:33:00 - [1333] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I came here to try to solve a problem, not to play games with trolls. I don't know and don't care to know whatever it is you're getting at above. If you've something constructive to contribute, I'm all ears, but consider your hostilities ignored. Adipem, I think what el OPERATOR is implying is that you need to take your scout QQ about scanners back to the scout thread. It has nothing to do with improving the logistics class and does not need to be discussed in this thread. (If I'm wrong el OPERATOR I apoligize now) What I'm saying is stop trying to derail this thread with garbage that does not directly benefit the improvement of the logistics class. If it is so important to you, then start another thread in F&B and have a proper discussion there. If you want to help the Logistics class, great stay and participate with ideas that benefit us. If you want to QQ about the UP scout class do it else where. Not that i'm taking sides but the thread is called Logistics + Support. And eWAR as well as providing assistance through nonlethal methods is support. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1540	Posted - 2015.02.23 23:34:00 - [1334] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Hi Mr Goo, I suspect that my goals and your goals are more intimately connected than you realize. OP Heavy/Logi blobs and OP GalLogi scans are two very goods reasons why not to buff the Logistics class, and the Logistics class might have been buffed sooner if its OP elements weren't playing leading roles in pubstomps and PC. Your expressed goal (a better Logi) and my expressed goal (balanced EWAR) are two variables in the same equation. We could be working together on this, and I see no reason why we shouldn't so long as balance remains a mutual goal. So your threatening logistics because you don't likt their bonuses? Nice Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1540	Posted - 2015.02.23 23:36:00 - [1335] - Quote Dementia Maniaclease wrote: Cass Caul wrote: - Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive maximum nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and 5% to repair amount per leveland +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level - Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to maximum spawn count per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level I agree with this... And more HP, not a lot more just a touch The ALT is strong with this one. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1540	Posted - 2015.02.23 23:48:00 - [1336] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Well, I proposed a relatively long period of constant repping (1min) that should be enough to fight of several incoing mercs (more than 2-3). If you play the overheated tool right, you would have even better chances to fight two incoming heavies at once. When on cooldown, you could give firesupport with the logi (you carry a weapon do you). I had good success using a MD in those situations, since it has a good shock and awe effect on many mercs. If you have two incoming MinSents with burst HMGs your Heavy is toast anyway, and you are better of to run your ass of and get to safety... "Logis rep too much and should be forced to shoot things." Really? Dude that's what got logistics nerfed before. And you just admitted in a round about way that you want slayer-logis back. Which would obviously lead to another nerf for the whole class. NO! Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1540	Posted - 2015.02.23 23:59:00 - [1337] - Quote Don't forget,a logistics repping is a logistics not shooting. Even if they are latched onto a fully healed ally. Logistics got in trouble for shooting,now players want to punish them for repping. It's absolutely stupid. It's getting to the point where logistics can't do anything without suffering some sort of punishment for it. And it's mind blowing that players think punishment is a good reward for doing your roles intended purpose. And yes,overheat is punishment. Inb4 tactics,boring,or skill used inappropriately. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6866	Posted - 2015.02.24 00:13:00 - [1338] - Quote Meee One wrote: So your threatening logistics because you don't likt their bonuses? Nice I believe you mistook my meaning. I'm pointing out that overperforming elements in a class can stand in the way of buffing that class. When it comes time to buff the Logi, there'd be less resistance (and perhaps better buffs) if the class's overperforming elements were addressed and handled. Heavy/Logi Blobs and GalLogi Scans are both OP (or at minimum, they're perceived to be OP) . It appears that the HMG is going to be nerfed, so the former will likely soon be out of your way. The latter, however, will very likely remain an obstacle. I've given you guys some of the reasons why GalLogi scans are perceived to be broken from the Scout's perspective. Assault users will point out that there's no benefit to running damps with GalLogi scans in play. Three complex damps to beat team-wide, 200m scans? Not reasonable. Better off sticking with King HP (bad for build variety). All food for thought. Happy to clarify if need be. I know you guys suspect I have an agenda, and you're right. You've a broken item I'd like to see fixed for the betterment of balance. You've also an underperforming suit I'd like to see fixed the for betterment of balance. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 7997	Posted - 2015.02.24 00:33:00 - [1339] - Quote @Meee One. Logis were overperforming as slayers, that is what got them into trouble, not that they were killing anyone at all. All suits should have some viability with shooting other players. A balanced Logi should be able to rep, provide scans, and shoot mercs among other supporting actions. It becomes imbalanced when the degree to which they do any of the above results in over performance and abuse. That goes the same for any suit or vehicle. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1540	Posted - 2015.02.24 03:26:00 - [1340] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: @Meee One. Logis were overperforming as slayers, that is what got them into trouble, not that they were killing anyone at all. All suits should have some viability with shooting other players. A balanced Logi should be able to rep, provide scans, and shoot mercs among other supporting actions. It becomes imbalanced when the degree to which they do any of the above results in over performance and abuse. That goes the same for any suit or vehicle. Well,if my ability to rep gets reduced via overheat. My shooting time increases because of overheat. I personally picked logistics so thay my shooting responsibilities would be minimal,and yet players want to reduce my supporting ability? Lolno Mad is saying he wants an overheat to add skill and he's bored. All he has to do is stop repping and shoot,but as rep tools are infinite he wouldn't have a valid excuse to give squad mates. So instead of being candid with his crew he comes here to try to have an excuse made for him. It's terribly childish,and i can see through it easily. He doesn't want to be a logistics,he wants to be an assault with more than 1 equipment slot. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.

Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 456	Posted - 2015.02.24 13:53:00 - [1341] - Quote Meee One wrote: One Eyed King wrote: @Meee One. Logis were overperforming as slayers, that is what got them into trouble, not that they were killing anyone at all. All suits should have some viability with shooting other players. A balanced Logi should be able to rep, provide scans, and shoot mercs among other supporting actions. It becomes imbalanced when the degree to which they do any of the above results in over performance and abuse. That goes the same for any suit or vehicle. Well,if my ability to rep gets reduced via overheat. My shooting time increases because of overheat. I personally picked logistics so thay my shooting responsibilities would be minimal,and yet players want to reduce my supporting ability? Lolno Mad is saying he wants an overheat to add skill and he's bored. All he has to do is stop repping and shoot,but as rep tools are infinite he wouldn't have a valid excuse to give squad mates. So instead of being candid with his crew he comes here to try to have an excuse made for him. It's terribly childish,and i can see through it easily. He doesn't want to be a logistics,he wants to be an assault with more than 1 equipment slot. Well people who know how I play, know, that I'm trying to support, but I'll usually roam around very much and try to keep my links up, or on some maps (especcially in doms) just go for the highground in a minmando to deny the enemy said high ground. This is actually not that much fun as well... but if you don't do it, the enemy will, and I would love CCP to make certain roofs either accessible via ladders, or just make EQ placement on some struktures impossible. Running with a squad is frustrating at times, since you can not keep up with the assaults. I often arrive late, and people do not wait for reps or other help I can provide. I think running a logi just to perma rep a heavy is pathetic. giving the reptool a higher output, to survive short intense engagements seems intriguing instead of perma repping two sents in a cqc situation, just to farm points for OBs... I want the reptool to be more dynamic in use, it would be more powerful in return, so what if a overheated RT could rep a heavy through incoming Burst HMG fire? wouldn't that be fun, you had to balance betwheen the risk of overheating and repping to late and not getting the highest output when necessary... I would like that very much! Considering the slayer logis, the only real problem with that ever, was the cal logi, which had way to good bonuses. Right now, the survivability is pathetic, and that on a suit, that is the first target for any incoming reds, because they know if they don't kill the logi first, the heavy they just dropped might be rezzed with 100% health a second later. This is why logis need the same survivability as assaults, without a sidearm and without the offensive bonuses the assaults get.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6882	Posted - 2015.02.24 13:56:00 - [1342] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Considering the slayer logis, the only real problem with that ever, was the cal logi, which had way to good bonuses. Wasn't the Slayer GalLogi at some point as equally FoTM as the Slayer CalLogi? I recall Nyain San switching from 6 of one to 6 of the other, but I don't recall which was FoTM first. (This was all a long time ago in early Uprising. Slayer Logis have been dead for some time barring that Usuck Vagheitan guy from AE.) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 16:37:00 - [1343] - Quote GalLogi scans aren't OP. Heavy/Logi blobs aren't either, unless you're not addressing them properly. In a game well-established on the premises of counters and counter-counters instead of see/point/shoot the fine difference can be easily forgotten. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6883	Posted - 2015.02.24 16:53:00 - [1344] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: GalLogi scans aren't OP. Heavy/Logi blobs aren't either, unless you're not addressing them properly. In a game well-established on the premises of counters and counter-counters instead of see/point/shoot the fine difference can be easily forgotten. If something is balanced against its counter, and then that something is nerfed half a dozen times, is it possible that it will remain balanced against its counter? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 17:27:00 - [1345] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aren't the Slayer GalScouts, with their completely undetectable profile signature at some point as equally OP as the Slayer CalScout, with its mind-numbing regen and hitbox capable of dancing throufh OBs once speedtanked? I recall Nyain San switching from 6 of one to 6 of the other, but I don't recall which was FoTM first. All long ago, of course; Slayer Scouts have been dead for quite some time (barring that "Vagheitan" guy from AE, who isn't in AE anymore but is still in a scout frame anytime he takes the field in PC). Yup. fires scanner that illuminates 90degrees out of 360, and like its more powerful relative doesn't show everything. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 17:33:00 - [1346] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: GalLogi scans aren't OP. Heavy/Logi blobs aren't either, unless you're not addressing them properly. In a game well-established on the premises of counters and counter-counters instead of see/point/shoot the fine difference can be easily forgotten. If something is balanced against its counter, and then that something is nerfed half a dozen times, which of following is more likely? A) That something and its counter are now balanced B) That something and its counter are now not balanced If someone is a bs'r with an admitted agenda (after not being allowed to deny it anymore) to further their own interests and has been shown repeatedly to be soley focused on the success of those interests which is more likely: 1.They will continue to pursue their idea by whatever bs arguement they can think of on a day-by-day basis or 2. They will continue to argue their idea by whatever bs pursuit they can think of on a day-by-day basis ? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 17:43:00 - [1347] - Quote Crickets are deafening. Nurf!!Nuuuurrrfff!!!!! TruthInFeedBack@CCP .com/support for all your QQ ticket needs Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6885	Posted - 2015.02.24 18:05:00 - [1348] - Quote My agenda is better balance, El Operator, and it always has been. If my agenda were "Scout Superiority" or some such nonsense, I wouldn't have supported nerfing the Scout over and over again. I admit that I'm biased as it relates to my chosen playstyle, but I sincerely try to be open-minded and reasonable as it relates to other playstyles. You may disagree with my perspectives and opinions -- and perhaps rightfully so on occasion -- but you'll find no history of either being unreasonable. Whatever belief it is that's fueling your angst and hostility is misplaced. If you can't take me at my word, ask Cross or Demonsbane. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 18:15:00 - [1349] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Page 40 something wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177251&find=unread No need for Cross or John's word about your word since your word can be taken directly, as the fraud it is. Keep trying to sell your snakeoil balance but don't feign ignorance and innocence when the educated don't buy. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 18:20:00 - [1350] - Quote Pretty Please with sugar on top take your bs elsewhere. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6886	Posted - 2015.02.24 18:22:00 - [1351] - Quote I don't know why you keep bringing up that thread. Magnus proposed a bad EWAR model. I tried to explain why it was a bad model. Magnus mistook me for a troll and threw mud, so I threw mud back (which was a mistake on my part). But my lapse of judgment and decorum doesn't make his idea less bad; his model was flawed and it wouldn't have worked, and I stand by every point I made in that thread. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 18:25:00 - [1352] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Pretty Please with sugar on top take your bs elsewhere. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 18:38:00 - [1353] - Quote Where are we on getting our LAVs back? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:04:00 - [1354] - Quote Oh, and the GalLogi seems UP somehow... Maybe it should lose a sidearm slot in favor of a second light weapon slot. Oh and it should run up vertical surfaces. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 833	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:43:00 - [1355] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Oh, and the GalLogi seems UP somehow... Maybe it should lose a sidearm slot in favor of a second light weapon slot. Oh and it should run up vertical surfaces. Oh and it should run down vertical surfaces too. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 739	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:45:00 - [1356] - Quote Meee One wrote: One Eyed King wrote: @Meee One. Logis were overperforming as slayers, that is what got them into trouble, not that they were killing anyone at all. All suits should have some viability with shooting other players. A balanced Logi should be able to rep, provide scans, and shoot mercs among other supporting actions. It becomes imbalanced when the degree to which they do any of the above results in over performance and abuse. That goes the same for any suit or vehicle. Well,if my ability to rep gets reduced via overheat. My shooting time increases because of overheat. I personally picked logistics so thay my shooting responsibilities would be minimal,and yet players want to reduce my supporting ability? Lolno Mad is saying he wants an overheat to add skill and he's bored. All he has to do is stop repping and shoot,but as rep tools are infinite he wouldn't have a valid excuse to give squad mates. So instead of being candid with his crew he comes here to try to have an excuse made for him. It's terribly childish,and i can see through it easily. He doesn't want to be a logistics,he wants to be an assault with more than 1 equipment slot. Agreed. An overheat that seizes the repair or more diminished returns with WP are not the answer. It is a barrier to new logis that creates a steep learning curve and will also lead to cursed frustration whenever that limit is reached in battle. Especially in a situation where those reps would have allowed your team to hold a point, survive, or turned the tide of battle. Overheat no. A warm up capacitor to reward actual repping - meaning that when it is repairing it is increasing in efficiency and when it is tethered but not repping it begins to cool down - is a method that rewards active repping with a direct battle effect. This affects repping behavior and has a greater possibility to lead to the desired behavior of smart repping rather than "leashing" an entire match. That said - you can't force anyone to play the way you want them to. All we can do is provide tools and allow players to use them however they see fit. You will have that guy that is dedicated to pistols, RE's, LZR, or other situational/unique items and we cant change that. All that can be done is to give fair rules of play for all. An overheat is punishing to a class that draws players for the reason that they don't want to/or have to shoot, or they are just not good at it. But being able to leash another player, help out, and provide other support may full that need of fun, purpose, or entertainment that we all seek by playing games, and that's perfect for people like me. I believe that the majority of users would find the overheat a bane to the class and alienate players even further. While it is unique, and may offer a minority of users a new thrill for a while the permanency of such a change, and how that might affect future changes in the mechanics of other items is not something that can be supported. Capacitors or warm up mechanics maybe. Seizing/stopping/arresting/halting/etc.... just no. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 833	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:46:00 - [1357] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Oh, and the GalLogi seems UP somehow... Maybe it should lose a sidearm slot in favor of a second light weapon slot. Oh and it should run up vertical surfaces. Oh and it should run down vertical surfaces too. Oh and it should be while it dual-wields Kubo PlasmaCannons that have over and under-barrel scanners that autoscan in 720 degree arcs at 10db. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 739	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:47:00 - [1358] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Considering the slayer logis, the only real problem with that ever, was the cal logi, which had way to good bonuses. Wasn't the Slayer GalLogi at some point as equally bad as the Slayer CalLogi? I recall Nyain San switching from 6 of one to 6 of the other, but I don't recall which was FoTM first. All long ago, of course; Slayer Logis have been dead for quite some time (barring that "Vagheitan" guy from AE). Nope The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 836	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:59:00 - [1359] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Considering the slayer logis, the only real problem with that ever, was the cal logi, which had way to good bonuses. Wasn't the Slayer GalLogi at some point as equally bad as the Slayer CalLogi? I recall Nyain San switching from 6 of one to 6 of the other, but I don't recall which was FoTM first. All long ago, of course; Slayer Logis have been dead for quite some time (barring that "Vagheitan" guy from AE). Nope But "Fear" made every logi a target. It is similar to modern profiling: color = crime. Therefore all yellow logis were under scrutiny for the actions of one races class and bonus. CalLogi technically wasn't even "bonused" , it just happened to be able to stack Damage Mods during the time period when Damage Mods had no stacking penalty. DM stacking without penalty + ability to self-logi (its own ammo/rephives) = a Slayer's go-to fit. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 740	Posted - 2015.02.25 01:29:00 - [1360] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Considering the slayer logis, the only real problem with that ever, was the cal logi, which had way to good bonuses. Wasn't the Slayer GalLogi at some point as equally bad as the Slayer CalLogi? I recall Nyain San switching from 6 of one to 6 of the other, but I don't recall which was FoTM first. All long ago, of course; Slayer Logis have been dead for quite some time (barring that "Vagheitan" guy from AE). Nope But "Fear" made every logi a target. It is similar to modern profiling: color = crime. Therefore all yellow logis were under scrutiny for the actions of one races class and bonus. CalLogi technically wasn't even "bonused" , it just happened to be able to stack Damage Mods during the time period when Damage Mods had no stacking penalty. DM stacking without penalty + ability to self-logi (its own ammo/rephives) = a Slayer's go-to fit. I believe that the statement is not entirely accurate. While damage mod scaling had yet to be implemented even that was fixed after the "slayer logi" problem was fixed. As previously posted the Cal Logi's bonus supplied it with extreme shield HP. On a Caldari with low recharge time, 4 low slots for armor/reppers, and a natural 5hps rep - it was the most survivable Tank to date as this was well before a lot of other balancing took place (like the TAR god gun). Damage mods were secondary to the survivability of such a suit as going toe to toe with any other logi or assault, even heavies at the time, it would come out the victor and quickly recharge all HP. While carrying nanos to refill ammo. The CPU nerf, initial bonus change to regulators, took care of the threat. To further specify: at the time Logis had more modules than assaults and better CPU/GP to fit with. The extra module slots, and the Cal bonus worked in tandem to create a suit that, despite worse base stats, could still survive better than an assault. Since the weapons had not been balanced the extra module slots, AFTER the CalLogi bonus fiasco, did make a DMG mod logi desirable - BUT low base stats often stopped players from using the logi for slaying... but not all. Until the Module efficiency re-balancing and the Slot balancing that put Assaults at the top of the fitting charts the potential for a "slayer logi" was still there. But no longer. The bonuses do not support survivability, low base stats ensure worse performance, module stacking penalties apply uniformly (except armor and scouts) making the best suit for modules, survivability, and overall better performance for slaying most commonly and Assault... or it was until scout upgrades and other tampering that has made scouts the more popular suit choice. Moving ON. We have derailed this thread long enough. How bonuses interact with other classes, equipment, vehicles, etc. does have import as to how the logi class should be balanced. Though direct scout balancing threads are best for some issues, bringing up a concern in this thread on the interaction of that bonus is input that should be taken into consideration. Just as "leashed heavies" would have some valuable input as to how they like being tethered. AS several pages have been spent on comments as to whether leashing is acceptable from a support/logi standpoint we should hear from the Heavies. Do they appreciate it? Do they care? What do they want? They rely on us shouldn't we have some direction from them? Yes. Their first input would probably be visual notification that they are being repped. This we know. What about the survivability of their logis? Do they often die before the skirmish is over? Do they outlast the Heavy? Do most of them want us to be firing when we could be repping them? Answers to these questions are better than a Support oriented class dictating how it should be done. What do they think of a Seize/Overheat Mechanic? - What do you believe their answer would be... You already know don't you. (no question marks - these are statements). You know they would call it stupid, pointless, and make the same points that have been made about such a mechanic. HOW our work affects players should be the ultimate guiding principle when speaking to equipment. That incorporates changes to bonuses, base stats, EQ pricing, and more. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower

Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 247	Posted - 2015.02.25 15:22:00 - [1361] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I've offered some of the reasons why GalLogi scans seem broken from the Scout's perspective. Assault users will point out that there's no benefit to running damps with GalLogi scans in play. Three complex damps to beat team-wide, 200m scans? Not reasonable. Better off sticking with King HP (which is bad for build variety and bad for balance) How does cost factor into that balance issue? Do you agree that whoever wins the EWAR competition for top spot, whether it the detectors or the hiders, the supreme EWAR position should be the more expensive option? Because what I find unreasonable is that you can fit three stealthy scouts, each one damped enough to avoid my proto scans, and even if I miraculously killed all three, their combined isk loss would be less than if one of them kills me. That's not balanced either. I think you'll find a lot of resistance to the effectiveness of stealthy scouts disappears, if they actually have to pay for their mistakes. Losing a suit that's almost free, because you were detected by a suit that costs at least three times as much when fitted with proto equipment, IS balanced. If scanner logis cost 1/4th as much as they do, I'd concede your claim that GalLogi scans are OP. They aren't because of their expense and the cheapness of the multiple counters that obliterate them. We all know my hypothetical above isn't realistic, because my logi is more likely to die than even a single one of those "paper thin" scouts. Don't suggest anybody should win the EWAR competition without paying for it. There's nothing balanced about that. Each of my proto scanners costs more than a scout suit that can easily gank me. Should logis an heavies have an incentive to fit damps too? Should we not show up on scouts' passives unless they've fit more precision than we've fit damps? I'd be up for an psuedo-EWAR-tiericide. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6929	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:12:00 - [1362] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: How does cost factor into that balance issue? I would agree with you if you were to say, "... a Logi equipped with proto gear is too expensive; if I die once I lose money, and this isn't the case with other suits; we should do something to fix this disproportionate expense." This statement is reasonable and makes practical sense. By contrast, a statement to the effect of "... my proto scanner should always scan X because it is expensive" makes no more sense than "... my proto weapon should always kill Y because it is expensive". Neither of these statements are reasonable. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 836	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:15:00 - [1363] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: How does cost factor into that balance issue? I would agree with you if you were to say, "a Logi equipped with proto gear is too expensive; if I die once I lose money, and this isn't the case with other suits; we should do something to fix this disproportionate expense." This statement makes practical sense. By contrast, a statement to the effect of "... my proto scanner should always scan X because it is expensive" makes no more sense than "... my proto fine rifle should always kill Y because it is expensive". Neither of these statements makes practical sense. Look, Ma!!! Input that isn't total trash!!! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 1035	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:24:00 - [1364] - Quote High end injectors should provide temporary damage resistance. All injectors should restore some ammo Who cares what some sniper has to say. CCP, let's push for the license of Dust/Legion on both current Gen consoles!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6929	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:37:00 - [1365] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: REDACTED. BECAUSE. I removed the part you disagreed with. It detracted from the point I was trying to make. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 838	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:48:00 - [1366] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: High end injectors should provide temporary damage resistance. All injectors should restore some ammo I could see a small amount of ammo being given... but I'm not there on a a damage resist. Yes, it would be nice and Yes I'd like to have more of a guarantee that when I pick someone up they'll be able to return to battle but personally I think the new shield regen injectors are doing mostly covers that. Really, I guess I'm just worried that a damage resist on pick up would result in less discriminate use of needles and more innappropriate pickups, since people will rely on the resist instead of safety awareness when picking up. What if.... the nanites in the injector had a fixed value, which increased going up the tiers. That value would equal some amount of healing, for ex at a 1:1 ratio. So an injector of 500 nanites did 500 hp of healing. Now, if the clone being resurrected only had say, 375 hp the difference between the 500 vs the 375 (125 nanites) was converted to ammo? Maybe at a different ratio, but still converted. Numbers would need some playing around with (so it works for heavies AND scouts) but on the surface I think something like this could be made to work without it being a major travesty. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 838	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:55:00 - [1367] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: REDACTED. BECAUSE. I removed the part you disagreed with. It detracted from the point I was trying to make. The only solution I can think of to "too expensive" would be a steep reduction in the price of Logistics suits (and possibly EQ as well). Would be easier than trying to find a way to increase Logi pay. Actually, my comment was in agreement with your position. The tone/verbage I used I just don't feel like starting my day with. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6931	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:58:00 - [1368] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: ... in agreement with your position. (and thank you!) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 838	Posted - 2015.02.25 19:01:00 - [1369] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Do you agree that whoever wins the EWAR competition for top spot, whether it the detectors or the hiders, the supreme EWAR position should be the more expensive option? I don't and won't. To do so would require applying the same logic (isk cost = success) everywhere else and from what the HAV threads have produced in that direction....yeah, I'm a no. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 838	Posted - 2015.02.25 19:04:00 - [1370] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: ... in agreement with your position. (and thank you!) Just on the cost topic, bud. Don't get it twisted. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 250	Posted - 2015.02.26 01:01:00 - [1371] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Do you agree that whoever wins the EWAR competition for top spot, whether it the detectors or the hiders, the supreme EWAR position should be the more expensive option? I don't and won't. To do so would require applying the same logic (isk cost = success) everywhere else and from what the HAV threads have produced in that direction....yeah, I'm a no. No, it really doesn't require applying the same logic more broadly. I'm not suggesting that isk cost should always equal success, just that there should be some reason for a huge disparity. Cost is one of many factors that can help (as opposed to being the sole determining factor) balance the elements of a game. One (of many) possible indicator of an imbalance can be a huge cost differential. I don't think its unreasonable to suggest that you shouldn't be able to field an effective scout fitting that avoids my scans, for a fraction of the cost of one piece of scanning equipment, when that fit can also reliably gank me 9/10ths of the time. At the very least that circumstance should give us pause when Adipem suggests that GalLogi scans are OP. GalLogis are less survivable, more expensive, less lethal. How exactly is that OP? I'm only suggesting that perhaps our being less survivable and less lethal would be a little less Under-Powered, if we weren't also wildly more expensive. That's really not as simple as, "more expensive should always win." There should be a reason for why a bargain is disproportionately effective. Why should stealth get to be the bargain instead of detection? The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6938	Posted - 2015.02.26 01:11:00 - [1372] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Why should stealth get to be the bargain instead of detection? I don't know that this is a reasonable premise, Gyn Wallace. Running around in a 400HP Scout Suit is not a low risk activity; it is certainly more risky than using an Active Scanner while embedded among friendlies. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 742	Posted - 2015.02.26 02:46:00 - [1373] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Why should stealth get to be the bargain instead of detection? I don't know that this is a reasonable premise, Gyn Wallace. Running around in a 400HP Scout Suit is not a low risk activity; it is certainly more risky than using an Active Scanner while embedded among friendlies. As Gwyn Stated there are many factors to determine balance. A piece of that factoring are the veracity of generalizations and determining if they are quantifiable or not. CCP may have the data needed, but lets look at the statement made of: Adipem Nothi wrote: 1. Running around in a 400HP Scout Suit is not a low risk activity. and Adipem Nothi wrote: 2. it is certainly more risky than using an Active Scanner while embedded among friendlies. 1. True at face value. Are we comparing like activities, are we talking about trading situations by putting a 600hp logi running around or the same scout using an active scanner around friendlies? Taking into account speed, regen, stealth, etc. the risk is decidedly lower than it might sound compared to a logi int the same situation - else why would it be the suit of choice? And what action is being taken? Running around the redline sniping is hardly as dangerous as being on the battlefield. Running in an enemy free zone is hardly risky... so what exact situation are you trying to create here for comparison? A hot point battle at a letter that is constantly being attacked and the blues are holed up inside while a scout runs around outside looking for stragglers.... 2. Possible. But this is hardly defined. Are you saying that if the logi and scout switched places one would be at more risk than the other? are you saying that all/ most users of active scanners are embedded among friendlies? would it surprise you to find out that most are running scans on the front lines or from different areas outside 'the blob"? are you assuming that all logis are team players and stay with the friendlies most of the time? are you stating that the logi is at low risk because they are with the team? are you assuming that "shoot the logi first" is not the primary objective of most experienced players? Around an objective or with blue/green dots every suit is at risk. This is a shooter. Object -> to win -> shoot reds... so what are we trying to say? In the same situation would a logi survive as opposed to a scout? The comparisons are classically apples to oranges. Which can be done when measuring nutritional content in the context of dietary human health or vitamin C values. But comparing one situation to an entirely different situation based on assumptions, without explanation or specifics, isn't helpful to build a discussion. I get that you are fighting for the scout and how the Gal bonus affects the play, but make something that is comparable. Give something that can be worked with as opposed to pigeon-holed stereotypes. I appreciate many of your statements, but I feel like this one was not as well constructed or thought out. It seemed reactionary. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1551	Posted - 2015.02.26 07:06:00 - [1374] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Why should stealth get to be the bargain instead of detection? I don't know that this is a reasonable premise, Gyn Wallace. Stealth isn't getting a bargain as running around in a 400HP Scout Suit is not a low risk activity. It is certainly more risky than using an Active Scanner while embedded among friendlies. Lol. Now you're starting to sound like a logi hater. Let me too make an equally stupid comparison. What if when you were going to KN someone they had to press X to accept? Injectors require X to call for help (one hit heal),why don't KN require X for permission to kill (one hit kill)? My point? Things aren't as one colored as you are trying to get sympathizers to believe. And if you continue bashing logistics,imma have to debunk your posts. For example: >Risky >Cal scout 50 sp/s and lowest delay The door is that way. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6945	Posted - 2015.02.26 13:17:00 - [1375] - Quote Fact Checking =/= Bashing Logistics Gyn Wallace opined that stealth play is low risk. It isn't. This is a poor premise upon which to build an argument about balance. That's the point I'd intended to make. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 254	Posted - 2015.02.26 16:38:00 - [1376] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: GalLogis are less survivable, more expensive, less lethal. How exactly is that OP? ...Why should stealth get to be the bargain instead of detection? I don't know that this is a reasonable premise, Gyn Wallace. Stealth isn't getting a bargain as running around in a 400HP Scout Suit is not a low risk activity. It is certainly more risky than using an Active Scanner while embedded among friendlies. Well let's examine the premise then, and be precise in our use of language. First, let's be sure of what we mean by "risk." Are you taking a greater or lesser risk by running a suit that you can afford to die in ten times per match, while still making a profit, compared to my running a suit that puts me at a net isk loss if i die twice? Even if you die 8 times (because you can afford to play very aggressively; not because of any inherent vulnerability when your eHP AND speed are taken into account), and I die 3 times, should we describe that as you as engaging in a "high risk" activity and me engaging in a "low risk" activity? You're not being specific about whether you're risking death or isk loss. Our clones are free when we're earning isk in pubs. So long as you don't throw the match due to clone losses, or perhaps even if you do lose the match, you can easily finish weathier than when you started. What are you risking in your "high risk activity"? Risk of being detected, so I'm not as surprised when I get shotgunned in the face? A Gal logi being aware that he's about to die in the next 5 seconds, instead of some more vague time in the future, doesn't make him OP. Where you really seem to be disagreeing is with my claim that the scanning Gal Logi is less survivable. Does the 400HP scout actually have lower survivability than a scanning Gal Logi? With high-alpha weapons (REs, one-shot kill shotgunners, plasma cannons, forge guns, etc.) the disparity in eHP is irrelevant. Your speed tanking is very relevant. Your ability to chose whether to engage or disengage is relevant. Do the scouts you know actually die more than the logis? If so, are they dying because they're vulnerable, or because they know their suit is so cheap that they can play extremely aggressively? No, I don't believe your 400HP scout can reasonably be described as engaging in "high risk" activity, compared to a wildly more expensive logis, because its the cheapness of your suit that lets you play so aggressively, and hence die a fair amount, not any inherent weakness in your over all tank (ehp + speed). If the costs were reversed (if a cloak cost 150K isk, and logis could run for 30k) you'd almost never see scouts getting killed. If logis were cheap enough to run that aggressively, they'd die at least as often as scout currently die. My lowest risk spawn of the game is my initial spawn in an uplink carrying scout suit (wildly superior to logis for initial uplinks and hacks). Its so cheap I can run it without caring if I get killed. If it cost as much as a logi, so that I minded throwing them away, it would be so much easier to stay alive in that suit compared to my regular logi fits. I routinely wind up getting more kills with it than my logi. I usually have to do something incredibly aggressive to get killed, so I can respawn and start supporting my heavies. In other words, I have to do something suicidal, instead of trying to stay alive to get killed in that scout suit. That's how much more survivable a scout suit is, compared to logis. You need specifically disadvantageous circumstances for the scout to become less survivable, like trying to keep a heavy repped in a scout suit, or defending a single objective in a way that doesn't use the scout's superior mobility. Generally though, their relative survivability is not even close. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6948	Posted - 2015.02.26 17:21:00 - [1377] - Quote @ Gyn Wallace I agree with you that the role of Logi is disproportionately expensive. Why are you assuming that Scouts run BPO / Basic gear? MinScout have no choice but to run a prototype suit (and a prototype cloak) to beat GalLogi scans. Should a MinScout lose 2-3 proto suits at ~120k per suit, he -- just like you -- will lose Isk that match. In order for a Scout to earn warpoints, he must hack, engage/kill targets or use equipment. Earning WP via EQ is not the Scout's strong suit; if it were, we'd have have a role overlap issue with Logistics. The other two activities are high risk activities for a low-hitpoint unit. Stealth play has become far more risky since Falloff, and today's Scout is no where near as strong as the pre-nerf, overpowered 1.8 Scout. If GalLogi scans were in balance with the pre-nerf / pre-Falloff 1.8 Scout, what are they in balance with now? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 255	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:00:00 - [1378] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Gyn Wallace I agree with you that the role of Logi is disproportionately expensive. Why are you assuming that Scouts run BPO / Basic gear? MinScout have no choice but to run a prototype suit (and a prototype cloak) to beat GalLogi scans. Should a MinScout lose 2-3 proto suits at ~120k per suit, he -- just like you -- will lose Isk that match. In order for a Scout to earn warpoints, he must hack, engage/kill targets or use equipment. Earning WP via EQ is not the Scout's strong suit; if it were, we'd have have a role overlap issue with Logistics. The other two activities are high risk activities for a low-hitpoint unit. Stealth play has become far more risky since Falloff, and today's Scout is no where near as strong as the pre-nerf, overpowered 1.8 Scout. If GalLogi scans were in balance with the pre-nerf / pre-Falloff 1.8 Scout, what are they in balance with now? Let's not change gears before we get as close as we can to resolving the previous point. Are you conceding that despite their lower HP, scouts are more survivable than logis unless they choose to behave in the most aggressive play styles available to them? Scouts can avoid enemy contact better than any other infantry, instead favoring running and hacking wherever the enemy is weakest. Scouts can chose long range weapons, like the plasma cannon or RR, and avoid any gun fight where they lack a range advantage. Scouts can run scanners too, if that's such a huge advantage. Only because most scouts run cheap fits (despite the Very rare protoscouts) do they die much from playing aggressively, not because they're inherently vulnerable when their speed and straffing are taken into account. Do you disagree that its easier to kill a logi than to kill a scout that isn't being suicidal? The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6951	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:03:00 - [1379] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Do you disagree that its easier to kill a logi than to kill a scout that isn't being suicidal? Yes, it is far harder to overrun a blob and kill the Logi at its nucleus than it is to spot and kill a Scout. Edit: I am not claiming that Logi survivability is fine; I've already suggested that its speed be increased such that speed/tank paradigm is brought into balance (a couple pages back). Imbalanced (Current) Tank: Heavy > Commando > Assault > Logi > Scout Speed: Heavy < Commando < Logi < Assault < Scout Balanced (Proposed) Tank: Heavy > Commando > Assault > Logi > Scout Speed: Heavy < Commando < Assault < Logi < Scout Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 849	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:24:00 - [1380] - Quote smh Adipem Nothi wrote: Fact Checking =/= Bashing Logistics Gyn Wallace opined that stealth play is low risk. This is a poor premise upon which to build an argument about balance. That's the point I'd intended to make, gentlemen. Nope. He opined it's low cost relative to its counter. You redirected the topic to risk . Adipem Nothi wrote: Any future Logi rework is going to be subject to an Official Feedback Session. I've been reasonable and polite here discussing hot-button issues with you guys; out there in a Feedback Session, people will not be. Out there, a baseless premise like "stealth play is a bargain" is guaranteed to lose your side standing. Out there, rushing to the defense of a baseless premise (see Pilots) will waste everyone's time and lose your side standing. Out there, "the door is that way" would only serve to lose your side standing. You guys are going to need solid and defensible positions in advance of this Feedback Session. You're going to need thick skin, and you're going to need reasonable and convincing responses to tough questions. One of those questions I've asked here in advance; many responses to that question have been less than convincing and reasonable. In a way, we are practicing; and in doing so, we are shoring up your arguments in advance. Cross is hand's down my favorite CPM, and I have his back should he ever need it. I favor your side by default. But if you were to build your balance arguments atop a false premise like "Scouts have it easy", I'd have no choice but to attack that false premise. It is better for everyone involved if we fight out Scout v Logi here, rather than out there in the Official Feedback Session. If Scouts and Logis were to come to mutually agreeable terms in advance, we could enter that session on the same side of the argument. ^ Another steamy pile of redirection that I'd prefer you stop dropping in here. Polite bs is still bs. Thread title is Input Request: Logistics and Support. It isn't Scouts, How do you Feel? It isn't Hey Non-Support Come and be Heard, it also isn't Practice Closing Arguments Hour. IF you have some sort of input about Support play or Logistics play, have a seat. IF you don't, as politely as possible please gtfo. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 849	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:38:00 - [1381] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Gyn Wallace If GalLogi scans were in balance with the pre-nerf / pre-Falloff 1.8 Scout, what are they in balance with now? They weren't. Now, post long-overdue tweaking of Scouts' base stats, they're better. Crazy tidbit, since we're on the subject: Scans are the counter to stealth. They operate intermittently, for short periods. At even their most powerful capability they are still defeated by stealth, since damps win ties and fits are possible which will tie or outright beat the scanner. Scans, as a counter, are countered by what they are intended to counter. wtf is OP here again? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6952	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:51:00 - [1382] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Gyn Wallace If GalLogi scans were in balance with the pre-nerf / pre-Falloff 1.8 Scout, what are they in balance with now? They weren't. Now, post long-overdue tweaking of Scouts' base stats, they're better. Crazy tidbit, since we're on the subject: Scans are the counter to stealth. They operate intermittently, for short periods. At even their most powerful capability they are still defeated by stealth, since damps win ties and fits are possible which will tie or outright beat the scanner. Scans, as a counter, are countered by what they are intended to counter. wtf is OP here again? Active Scanners are not the counter to Scouts and Dampeners; Scouts and Dampeners are the counter to Active Scanners. PS: If precision and profile are tied, precision wins (just in case you weren't aware). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 851	Posted - 2015.02.26 20:20:00 - [1383] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Gyn Wallace If GalLogi scans were in balance with the pre-nerf / pre-Falloff 1.8 Scout, what are they in balance with now? They weren't. Now, post long-overdue tweaking of Scouts' base stats, they're better. Crazy tidbit, since we're on the subject: Scans are the counter to stealth. They operate intermittently, for short periods. At even their most powerful capability they are still defeated by stealth, since damps win ties and fits are possible which will tie or outright beat the scanner. Scans, as a counter, are countered by what they are intended to counter. wtf is OP here again? Active Scanners are not the counter to Scouts and Dampeners; Scouts and Dampeners are the counter to Active Scanners. PS: If precision and profile are tied, precision wins (just in case you weren't aware). OK, then. You're right. Scouts and damps are the counter to Active Scanners. And Scouts and damps beat Active Scanners. OH Shnap! Then GalLogi scans aren't OP (since they're counterable by their counter) and your entire premise in here on that subject is void. Next in line! Next, please!! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 851	Posted - 2015.02.26 21:06:00 - [1384] - Quote fires Active Scanner through Magnifying Glass and lights cigarrette activates cloak Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 256	Posted - 2015.02.27 00:39:00 - [1385] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Do you disagree that its easier to kill a logi than to kill a scout that isn't being suicidal? Yes, assuming both units are "doing it right", it is far harder to overrun a blob and kill the Logi at its nucleus than it is to spot and kill a Scout. Whoa, before rushing ahead to how lucrative each class is for earning war points (where I'll be happy to make concessions about the logi's strength), let's make sure we've rationally wrapped up this survivability comparison. Do you really want to compare logi vs. scout survivability in terms of "doing it right" where the logi uses some portion of his team mates as body guards, and the scout doesn't coordinate his defense and movements with his team mates? Is that even a remotely fair way to assess each suits survivability? I understand assessing a heavy's survivability in terms of a lack of logi support (running reppers instead of plates), occasional logi support, or constant logi support. But if you're suggesting that logi survivability should be weighed in consideration of running with a tight squad that watches his back, then we need to similarly assess a scout's survivability running with an equal number of his team mates coordinating with him and watching his back. In other words, in similarly coordinated squad of scouts and fast assaults, how exactly does a threat survive long enough to get close enough to kill your scout more often than a squaded-up logi gets killed? Some of the most brutal fights I've ever been in were against coordinated scouts, constantly hitting from every direction, so there was never a safe direction to turn or take cover. Turning to shoot at one meant another could shotgun me in the back. If a logi "doing it right" has to play with a squad before you assess his survivability, shouldn't your scout's survivability be assessed in the same context of tight teamwork? When tight squads run scouts, the effects are absolutely BRUTAL for the other team. They're every bit as effective as a tight squad of heavies and logis, particularly if they're out to win the hack race by dividing up, or consolidating against a single enemy sub-squad if the slower enemy squad splits up to cover multiple objectives. "Doing it right" as a way of concealing the scout's superior survivability, because scouts are so survivable they don't need close squad support, is a sham of an argument. Scouts can certainly die as much as logis, but that's entirely a consequence of choosing an aggressive... insanely aggressive play style, not an inherent vulnerability to the suit. The low hp is more than negated as a weakness by the insane speed, let alone adding stealth. So if both the logi and the scout run with tight squads that watch your back, if they both have to "do it right" instead of only giving the logi the benefit of close squad support, do you still maintain that the logi is harder to kill? The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 256	Posted - 2015.02.27 00:44:00 - [1386] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Then GalLogi scans aren't OP (since they're counterable by their counter) and your entire premise in here on that subject is void. ! Yeah, he never really explained how Gal Logi scans are OP. Just because they can detect scouts that aren't using the counter to active scanners (stacked damps), doesn't make Gal scans OP, at all. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 256	Posted - 2015.02.27 00:54:00 - [1387] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Please note that I am not weighing risk in terms of Isk. That's not reasonable. "Less lucrative for earning war points" should not be confused with "high risk" or "less survivable." That does not aid clarity to the discussion. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 755	Posted - 2015.02.27 01:35:00 - [1388] - Quote @Adipem Nothi From your last few posts and referencing dampening. I do have a question or two for you if you wouldn't mind. Can all scouts beat the proto Gal proto scanner? or is it only the racial bonuses that help X races. That is to say, a proto scout with their slots full of proto dampeners, and a proto cloak. Will each beat the scan... was it an 18 or a 21 (sorry at work and just posting real quick) If NOT then I do see a problem. But if each race can then I can see that there is a counter - i did not say balance, just that there is a counter to the scan. Cloaking. SP wise it is a heavier investment to beat a scan - suit, modules, and 1 EQ. opposed to Gal Logi is Suit, and 1 EQ. The distance of the scan, covering half the battlefield or more at times I could see as frustrating - I've tried it myself. - Really had to flank to get away from the general scan areas. On the battlefield it is more difficult to beat the scan without the cloak active. The limited cloaking time - still a nice little while - is not what I hear that you want. What I hear is that In your view a fully dampened scout should beat a Gal Scan, is that right? Cloaked or uncloaked? Is that with any race? Is it that the cloak is the lynch pin of the operation? or is it just a "visual invisibility" mechanic to you? Do you want it so that Fully dampened beats everything and the cloak is just for fun? As it stands only a maxed/cloaked scout can beat the scans right? How would you like that to change? Do you want the Gal Logi to have to be heavier invested in something else to catch scouts? Like having the precision module also affect the active scanner so only a fully precisioned logi with a proto scanner could catch all scouts, just cloaked scouts, or only uncloacked scouts? So that you have more of a module to module and EQ to EQ match up? If that is the case suggest it. But I need more of a definition of what you are wanting to see happen on the battlefield. Please explain. Perhaps a Gal Bonus of 3% to precision modules and a 5% to Active scanner Cooldown, and asking the devs to make precision modules affect the active scanner. Then you may feel like you have more of an equal battle between the two. As each class would be equally invested, SP, module, suit, and EQ wise. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 755	Posted - 2015.02.27 01:44:00 - [1389] - Quote Adjusted the original google docs to reflect some of my feelings for a more survivable logi, I backed off on the better shield recharge (that seemed more like an Assault thing) to add better hacking and better ewar. Adjusted bonues, increased strafe speed, etc. Set up new slot layouts and tier progression. Left the whole sidearm thing to CCP to deal with, but provided options. The ewar precision and range is random numbers, i did not check what the values would be if maxed out (sorry). But it is still something, numbers that CCP wants provided (as they say - players doing the legwork). Can always go higher on the range... but will have to number test it so it doesn't become a Cal Scout issue of seeing the entire battlefield again. Please, tell me what you think. RedBleach's Logi Proposal The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6973	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:06:00 - [1390] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: @Adipem Nothi From your last few posts and referencing dampening. I do have a question or two for you if you wouldn't mind. Can all scouts beat the proto Gal proto scanner? or is it only the racial bonuses that help X races. That is to say, a proto scout with their slots full of proto dampeners, and a proto cloak. Will each beat the scan... was it an 18 or a 21 (sorry at work and just posting real quick) Yes, they can. More is required of the MinScout, as it must run a proto suit, fill all of its lows with complex damps, and be proto cloaked to beat all scans. This requirement was argued as "reasonable" before cloak-blind, decloak-delay, falloff, and scout armor/strafe penalty were introduced. If it was a "reasonable" requirement then, it certainly is not now. I believe it reasonable and appropriate to lessen pressure on MinScouts by 1 slot. If adjustments to GalLogi scans are off-the-table, this goal could be reached by alternative means. For example, changing cloak's active damp bonus from 0-5-10 to 10-15-25 would accomplish this goal. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6981	Posted - 2015.02.27 03:10:00 - [1391] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Please, tell me what you think. RedBleach's Logi Proposal Logi base scan range was increased to 25m when Falloff was introduced. This is the highest of all classes. Your proposal appears to reflect old values. You also propose changing Precision from 45 dB to 35 dB; this would playout as follows: Scan Precision (5) - 16 / 32 / 41 dB Cmp Precision (x1) - 13 / 25 / 33 dB Cmp Precision (x2) - 10 / 21 / 27 dB Cmp Precision (x3) - 9 / 18 / 24 dB Ranges: 8m / 19m / 38m Do you intend for the Logi to become the premier passive recon unit? If so, I would find this humorous, as Logis for so long have pointed to the Scout's 2 EQ slots as a potential "role bleed" problem. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 755	Posted - 2015.02.27 04:31:00 - [1392] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: @Adipem Nothi From your last few posts and referencing dampening. I do have a question or two for you if you wouldn't mind. Can all scouts beat the proto Gal proto scanner? or is it only the racial bonuses that help X races. That is to say, a proto scout with their slots full of proto dampeners, and a proto cloak. Will each beat the scan... was it an 18 or a 21 (sorry at work and just posting real quick) Yes, they can. More is required of the MinScout, as it must run a proto suit, fill all of its lows with complex damps, and be proto cloaked to beat all scans. This requirement was argued as "reasonable" before cloak-blind, decloak-delay, falloff, and scout armor/strafe penalty were introduced. If it was a "reasonable" requirement then, it certainly is not now. I believe it appropriate to lessen pressure on today's post-nerf, post-falloff MinScouts by 1 slot. If adjustments to GalLogi scans are off-the-table, this goal could be reached through alternative means. For instance, changing cloak's active damp bonus from 0-5-10 to 10-15-25 would accomplish the same; specifically, MN/AM Scouts would then beat 15dB scans at 2 cmp damps + proto cloak (instead of 3 cmp damps + proto cloak) and GA/CA Scouts at 2 cmp damps + basic cloak (instead of 2 cmp damps + proto cloak). That said, adjustments to GalLogi active scans may prove in the end to be the better path. GalLogi scans aren't just "OP" against MinScouts; these scans also negate any/all value of running damps on any suit other the Scout. Thankfully, balance calls aren't mine to make. Thank you for your reply. The Super Scout of 1.8 has been moving more towards a balanced class. And I can certainly get behind a re-evaluation of the current setup post nerf as moving towards a balance when other factors aren't taken into account only leads to further imbalance. Your first suggestion of increasing the cloaking dampening bonus, to allow 1 more open slot for something else, keeps the requirement for being cloaked to beat all scans. I this reasonable to you? I'm just wondering if 2 cdamps,1 ,or 0 beats most native suit scans so that scanners are the only thing that scouts have to worry about as most often suits run HP setups. I NEED TO FIND AS SCANNING RESOURCE - I don't want to just dump number hunting onto you, I'd rather have some of my own answers. - I remember looking at one. I'll have to find it. Wanting to know if the 3rd dampener is a waste besides just beating Gal scans if 2 does the job for EVERYTHING ELSE. If so then perhaps an adjustment is valid. Be that an adjustment in scanners, Gal Logi bonus, dampeners, precision mods, or the cloak. @Adipen Nothi. In your opinion when should active scans or dampeners win? Step by step, tier by tier, I think that a fully Damped Scout should beat the equal level of Scanner so a full dam[ proto scout beats proto scanner. But the counter is the Gal Logi that can scan everything. Meaning that the specialty of the Gal Logi scanning all is the draw of the suit, nothing escapes its eyes. So that a proto cloak is required to beat the Gal logi. I am biased because of my logi core, but I see the counter. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 755	Posted - 2015.02.27 04:34:00 - [1393] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Please, tell me what you think. RedBleach's Logi Proposal Logi base scan range was increased to 25m when Falloff was introduced. This is the highest of all classes. Your proposal appears to reflect old values. You also propose changing Precision from 45 dB to 35 dB; this would playout as follows: Scan Precision (5) - 16 / 32 / 41 dB Cmp Precision (x1) - 13 / 25 / 33 dB Cmp Precision (x2) - 10 / 21 / 27 dB Cmp Precision (x3) - 9 / 18 / 24 dB Ranges: 8m / 19m / 38m "Role bleed" comes to mind (among other things). But that's a conversation for another day. Thanks, lookslike I need to do some more hunting I appreciate the input. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 755	Posted - 2015.02.27 04:51:00 - [1394] - Quote And I'll look more into falloff, I thought that the 25 was the limit, or far end of the scan when it was already weaker. You are right, I do need to specify. It was an old worksheet and I didn't update all that was needed. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6987	Posted - 2015.02.27 13:31:00 - [1395] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: I NEED TO FIND AS SCANNING RESOURCE - I don't want to just dump number hunting onto you, I'd rather have some of my own answers. - I remember looking at one. I'll have to find it. Here are two: Borrowed from Barbershop Borrowed from Haerr To the best of my knowledge, Protofit's EWAR values are also up-to-date. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 158	Posted - 2015.02.27 13:57:00 - [1396] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: I NEED TO FIND AS SCANNING RESOURCE - I don't want to just dump number hunting onto you, I'd rather have some of my own answers. - I remember looking at one. I'll have to find it. Here are two: Borrowed from Barbershop Borrowed from Haerr To the best of my knowledge, Protofit's EWAR values are also up-to-date. So I see you have continued to successfully derail our thread, QQing about the imbalance of the scout. Please for the love of god ignore this poor scout so we can continue on with the logistics and support. If he wants to discuss this he can START HIS OWN THREAD IN F&B, or better yet go to the barbershop where he belongs. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6987	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:10:00 - [1397] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: I NEED TO FIND AS SCANNING RESOURCE - I don't want to just dump number hunting onto you, I'd rather have some of my own answers. - I remember looking at one. I'll have to find it. Here are two: Borrowed from Barbershop Borrowed from Haerr To the best of my knowledge, Protofit's EWAR values are also up-to-date. So I see you have continued to successfully derail our thread, QQing about the imbalance of the scout. Please for the love of god ignore this poor scout so we can continue on with the logistics and support. If he wants to discuss this he can START HIS OWN THREAD IN F&B, or better yet go to the barbershop where he belongs. Here is a merc (Redbleach) who wants to better understand EWAR and EWAR balance from the perspective of the EWAR units opposite his role. As his proposal includes significant EWAR changes, does it not stand to reason that he might benefit from new found knowledge? "No knowledge is to be despised." - Joseph Needham I'm not derailing your thread; I'm discussing EWAR. If Logis believe that EWAR is not pertinent to the Logi or discussion of the Logi, kindly return to the Scout the function of competitive counter recon (GalLogi bonus removed, given to AM Scout) and please detail for Rattati that your recent buff to scan range is neither needed nor wanted. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6987	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:35:00 - [1398] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: In your opinion when should active scans or dampeners win? Step by step, tier by tier, I think that a fully Damped Scout should beat the equal level of Scanner so a full dam[ proto scout beats proto scanner. But the counter is the Gal Logi that can scan everything. Meaning that the specialty of the Gal Logi scanning all is the draw of the suit, nothing escapes its eyes. So that a proto cloak is required to beat the Gal logi. I am biased because of my logi core, but I see the counter. Passive Scans (Falloff) To strike at full damage, a sneaky Shotgunner or Nova Knifer must take a risk and enter a given target's inner falloff ring. While there, his position is potentially disclosed to the target and the target's squad. At zero precision enhancers, a MedFrame's 20dB inner ring will detect undampened Scouts as well as single damp'd Scouts. At in investment of one precision enhancer, a MedFrame's inner ring (16dB) will detect all but the most heavily dampened Scouts (3+ damps). The inner ring of a MedFrame with 2 precision enhancers (13 dB) cannot be beat. In my observation, Falloff is working well. It is annoying to get "spun on" and insta-smashed by more attentive players I've flanked and stalked, but I recognize that this intended behavior; even when heavily dampened, I have to assume that when I'm within striking distance (~5m) of a target, that target and his squad knows my position. Active Scans At the baseline of 15 dB, the post-falloff Scout should beat scans at investment of 2 modules (while cloaked) or 3 modules while uncloaked. MedFrames should not be able to beat baseline scans. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 158	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:55:00 - [1399] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Agreed. An overheat that seizes the repair or more diminished returns with WP are not the answer. It is a barrier to new logis that creates a steep learning curve and will also lead to cursed frustration whenever that limit is reached in battle. Especially in a situation where those reps would have allowed your team to hold a point, survive, or turned the tide of battle. Overheat no. A warm up capacitor to reward actual repping - meaning that when it is repairing it is increasing in efficiency and when it is tethered but not repping it begins to cool down - is a method that rewards active repping with a direct battle effect. This affects repping behavior and has a greater possibility to lead to the desired behavior of smart repping rather than "leashing" an entire match. That said - you can't force anyone to play the way you want them to. All we can do is provide tools and allow players to use them however they see fit. You will have that guy that is dedicated to pistols, RE's, LZR, or other situational/unique items and we cant change that. All that can be done is to give fair rules of play for all. An overheat is punishing to a class that draws players for the reason that they don't want to/or have to shoot, or they are just not good at it. But being able to leash another player, help out, and provide other support may fill that need of fun, purpose, or entertainment that we all seek by playing games, and that's perfect for people like me. I believe that the majority of users would find the overheat a bane to the class and alienate players even further. While it is unique, and may offer a minority of users a new thrill for a while the permanency of such a change, and how that might affect future changes in the mechanics of other items is not something that can be supported. Capacitors or warm up mechanics maybe. Seizing/stopping/arresting/halting/etc.... just no. Overheat is a flat NO I agree. I like your idea with the capacitor, but I think it should be introduced as a variant at each level and see how it works in realtime vs what we envision. You know how things tend to get jumbled up when introduced. That way tweaks can be made until it is right. I would like to see it at about 225 reps per second at Proto. A little more than half of the sustained DPS of a basic assault rifle. I understand your not wanting more diminishing returns in WP for repairing, Right now there is a hard cap set (I don't remember what it is ). I suggested the diminishing returns as an alternative to a hard cap so we still receive points for repairing the whole time. I have changed my suggestion of stopping at 0. Examples numbers are negotiable. 1min 25 points 2min 20 points 3min 10 points 4min 5 points 5min or longer 1point. The hard drop between 2 and 3 minutes is to encourage releasing the lock when not in direct combat. To reset the timer, lock on should be dropped for 5 (maybe longer) seconds, to force a release. This should stop the release and quickly re-lock to reset WP acquisition. Forcing you to stop repairing for an extended time if you want better WPs, not just keep going and resetting every time your target is hit or they kill someone. I also believe that Guardian points should be dropped to 25 the same as an assist and should follow the same diminishing returns as the repair tool. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 158	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:34:00 - [1400] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Here is a merc (Redbleach) who wants to better understand EWAR and EWAR balance from the perspective of the EWAR units opposite his role. As his proposal includes significant EWAR changes, does it not stand to reason that he might benefit from new found pertinent knowledge? "No knowledge is to be despised." - Joseph Needham Again start your own thread and put all this knowledge you speak of there. This way not only RedBleach can learn but so can everyone else, or are you afraid of what the rest of the community will say to you? I will grant that the information is interesting and a good read but it is derailing this thread. I will even give you a title for your new thread. " Gal Logistics bonus VS Scout in ewar and how to properly balance it." Then everyone in the community will have the opportunity to give and receive information, not just the individuals interested in this thread. I am not against discussing this topic intelligently but lets make a thread specifically for it. It does not effect 3/4 of the logistics team because only the Gal Logi has the bonus. So your discussion needs to be moved from an overall discussion to a more specific discussion in its own thread. Than as RedBleach Gains more knowledge about the subject he can change his proposals and have a specific thread to reference when he needs specific answers. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.

Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 257	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:54:00 - [1401] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: If it was a "reasonable" requirement then, it certainly is not now. I believe it appropriate to lessen pressure on today's post-nerf, post-falloff MinScouts by 1 slot. ... That said, adjustments to GalLogi active scans may prove in the end to be the better path. GalLogi scans aren't just "OP" against MinScouts; these scans also negate any/all value of running damps on any suit other the Scout. Thankfully, balance calls aren't mine to make. Its nice to see that you're in a thread about buffing the weakest class in the game, arguing for buffing scouts that aren't under-powered, nerfing scans that aren't OP, AND buffing assaults... because assaults really need a buff right now... So its really just the heavies that the scanner is supposed to pick up.. oh and other logis? /Sarcasm. Scans were not balanced when scouts were ridiculously OP. Scans lost then, scans still lose now. But you want scans to lose against assaults too? I'm coming around to the opinion that you're really here to troll. The more I think about that survivability discussion, the more absurd your suggestion that scouts are higher risk or less survivable. Entire behaviors have arisen to protect expensive, vulnerable logis, while routine behaviors have similarly arisen around taking insane risks with the very robust scouts (despite their low HP). But instead of acknowledging that its the behaviors rather than anything inherent in the suits that has scouts and logis dying at any kind of similar frequency, you argued that "risk" isn't about isk loss. You're obviously not stupid, Adipem, but its becoming increasingly difficult for me to engage with you as though you're arguing in good faith. That you can't acknowledge that aggressive scout behavior rather than their suits (except to the extent that the low cost of the suit incourages that behavior) is what makes them die as much as logis, is a giant road block to taking anything you write seriously. Logis simply do not have an effective play style that reduces their risk of net isk loss for a match as low as what scouts have available to them, even if the scouts is a soloist and the logi has a squad. Even moderately skilled scouts, who decide to hunt me down, can almost guarantee that I'll go negative isk for a match, while they risk so little isk they can still easily go isk positive. There is no similar vulnerability for scouts. Scouts (right behind vehicle pilots) are among the lowest risk suits, unless your playstyle is insanely aggressive. The scout suit isn't particularly vulnerable; the playstyle some scouts prefer is. I've ranted about this enough, so I'll close with one final point: The biggest coward in the game, Duna, jumps out of his tank when its about to blow, and runs back to his redline to call in another tank. He works hard to keep his deaths as low as possible. What suit does he prefer? Not an assault, not a heavy, not a commando, and certainly not a logi. He runs a scout, because ITS the most survivable and lowest risk suit in the game. He jumps out, cloaks and runs away. And routinely gets away. That's not a vulnerable "high risk" suit. Its absurd, and frankly a little insulting to everyone's intelligence for you to suggest otherwise, just because some of the most aggressive players prefer using scout suits because they're so cheap while still being very lethal. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6988	Posted - 2015.02.27 16:08:00 - [1402] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Its nice to see that you're in a thread about buffing the weakest class in the game, arguing for buffing scouts that aren't under-powered Select Category:Dropsuits Commandos are the weakest class in the game. If Logis are underpowered and underutilized, so are Scouts. We can debate all day long whether or not GalLogi scans are OP. And all day long, Nyain San will stomp Ambush matches running GalLogi scans. Historically speaking, Nyain San pubstompers do not field what isn't OP. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 856	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:39:00 - [1403] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: I NEED TO FIND AS SCANNING RESOURCE - I don't want to just dump number hunting onto you, I'd rather have some of my own answers. - I remember looking at one. I'll have to find it. Here are two: Borrowed from Barbershop Borrowed from Haerr To the best of my knowledge, Protofit's EWAR values are also up-to-date. So I see you have continued to successfully derail our thread, QQing about the imbalance of the scout. Please for the love of god ignore this poor scout so we can continue on with the logistics and support. If he wants to discuss this he can START HIS OWN THREAD IN F&B, or better yet go to the barbershop where he belongs. This. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 856	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:40:00 - [1404] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Here is a merc (Redbleach) who wants to better understand EWAR and EWAR balance from the perspective of the EWAR units opposite his role. As his proposal includes significant EWAR changes, does it not stand to reason that he might benefit from new found pertinent knowledge? "No knowledge is to be despised." - Joseph Needham Again start your own thread and put all this knowledge you speak of there. This way not only RedBleach can learn but so can everyone else, or are you afraid of what the rest of the community will say to you? I will grant that the information is interesting and a good read but it is derailing this thread. I will even give you a title for your new thread. " Gal Logistics bonus VS Scout in ewar and how to properly balance it." Then everyone in the community will have the opportunity to give and receive information, not just the individuals interested in this thread. I am not against discussing this topic intelligently but lets make a thread specifically for it. It does not effect 3/4 of the logistics team because only the Gal Logi has the bonus. So your discussion needs to be moved from an overall discussion to a more specific discussion in its own thread. Than as RedBleach Gains more knowledge about the subject he can change his proposals and have a specific thread to reference when he needs specific answers. This. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1552	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:12:00 - [1405] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Adjusted the original google docs to reflect some of my feelings for a more survivable logi, I backed off on the better shield recharge (that seemed more like an Assault thing) to add better hacking and better ewar. Adjusted bonues, increased strafe speed, etc. Set up new slot layouts and tier progression. Left the whole sidearm thing to CCP to deal with, but provided options. The ewar precision and range is random numbers, i did not check what the values would be if maxed out (sorry). But it is still something, numbers that CCP wants provided (as they say - players doing the legwork). Can always go higher on the range... but will have to number test it so it doesn't become a Cal Scout issue of seeing the entire battlefield again. Please, tell me what you think. RedBleach's Logi Proposal ...You reduced scan accuracy and stamina,as well as stamina pool,for 10%on scan radius? Lol no I actually prefer cross',i'll survive longer. I don't know how to feel about that. Happy that logistics are buffed? Sad that the buffs are low? I'll go with happy i spose' that stamina will come in useful. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 857	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:21:00 - [1406] - Quote Quick note about the "counter" to "scouts" in scanning- 1. More than 1 scout frame is able, while properly modded, to defeat scans entirely. That is to say, able to beat all scanners all the time outright. 2. More than one scout frame is enabled when scanned to know that they've been scanned via a nice fat warning message on their screen that says, " You have been SCANNED". SO, when they've been scanned they can change what or how they're doing what they're doing before failing or being killed. 3. This terribly OP uberscanner that wreaks devastation across all games and modes and eviscerated a whole genre of gameplay here has the shortest lightup time (10-15 seconds) the narrowest arc (~45-¦) and the shortest range (100m). (not in front of a stat spreadsheet so figures may be a little off, but those are the gist of them) Even fully loaded with 4 of these things the top suit (GalLogi) for using them is still only able to scan those narrow arcs for those short periods. AND SCOUTS CAN STILL BEAT IT. 4. STEALTH, like any other weapon we have in here is open to everyone, ANY suit can be used to lurk n beast. Scout frames, by design are the most powerful in this regard. And among the scout class certain frames are better than others in more conditions for it. Kind of like our Uplinks, anyone w/eq can carry them, anyone w/eq can pitch them BUT if you want the fastest possible links out then you'll need to use the AmarrLogi. A slow, cumbersome logi not particularly well-suited out of the box for link running, btw. ALL scouts are more than stealthy as hell vs. all other frames. AND they can mod the fit so that they outright defeat their counter, the "OP" Proto GalLogi Proto Active Scans. The GalLogi bonusing, Cocentric Falloff AND Cloak stats ALL cumulatively create a SUM total of something resembling balance between Scout frames and all others. Scouts refused to tolerate other outright stat nerfs that were proposed to balance their OP bs, suggestions like going single equipment, going sidearm only, being made slightly slower, having outright fitting restrictions on hp mods etc. So, instead, the suite of tweaks that occurred were created and applied, scout OPness came down a notch and overall balance became better. NOW the effort to try and rollback the balancing is afoot and trying to interject itself here because we're on deck for buffs so a patch or fix will happen that could be an opportunity for scouts to regain their utterly dominant position among frames overall. ** THAT *, I say. BTW, had a DOM match vs Mr.GoBang there last Monday. I spent the whole match scanning him, his club and his team. He ultimately sg'd me twice (from his Cal std bpo), went 10-3 on the leaderboard and his team won the match. Thos uber OP GalLogi scans didn't kill him, didn't unhack anything, didn't freeze him in place or make him totally defenseless (he still had his speed, his tank, his gank and his wit) and didn't drop an OB on him. In PC we see scouts, full pro no halfassing it scouts, all the time. They are game changers and playmakers (as they should be) AND they defeat scanners ALL the time, hiding on catwalks raining re's, spamming their own scanners* , dropping links, running-and-gunning, ripping off speed hacks left and right etc so this crap about scans being too OP is exactly that: crap. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 857	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:27:00 - [1407] - Quote Any more discussion on Scouts and their supposed "UnderPoweredness" needs to go elsewhere now please. Bleach, we finally got this guy to stop with the bs in here but you brought it back up. If you want to sample his koolaid and try to mix it with yours do it at his place, the company he keeps there will make you feel better about diluting yours. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 857	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:40:00 - [1408] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If it was a "reasonable" requirement then, it certainly is not now. I believe it appropriate to lessen pressure on today's post-nerf, post-falloff MinScouts by 1 slot. ... That said, adjustments to GalLogi active scans may prove in the end to be the better path. GalLogi scans aren't just "OP" against MinScouts; these scans also negate any/all value of running damps on any suit other the Scout. Thankfully, balance calls aren't mine to make. Its nice to see that you're in a thread about buffing the weakest class in the game, arguing for buffing scouts that aren't under-powered, nerfing scans that aren't OP, AND buffing assaults... because assaults really need a buff right now... So its really just the heavies that the scanner is supposed to pick up.. oh and other logis? /Sarcasm. Scans were not balanced when scouts were ridiculously OP. Scans lost then, scans still lose now. But you want scans to lose against assaults too? I'm coming around to the opinion that you're really here to troll. The more I think about that survivability discussion, the more absurd your suggestion that scouts are higher risk or less survivable. Entire behaviors have arisen to protect expensive, vulnerable logis, while routine behaviors have similarly arisen around taking insane risks with the very robust scouts (despite their low HP). But instead of acknowledging that its the behaviors rather than anything inherent in the suits that has scouts and logis dying at any kind of similar frequency, you argued that "risk" isn't about isk loss. You're obviously not stupid, Adipem, but its becoming increasingly difficult for me to engage with you as though you're arguing in good faith. That you can't acknowledge that aggressive scout behavior rather than their suits (except to the extent that the low cost of the suit incourages that behavior) is what makes them die as much as logis, is a giant road block to taking anything you write seriously. Logis simply do not have an effective play style that reduces their risk of net isk loss for a match as low as what scouts have available to them, even if the scouts is a soloist and the logi has a squad. Even moderately skilled scouts, who decide to hunt me down, can almost guarantee that I'll go negative isk for a match, while they risk so little isk they can still easily go isk positive. There is no similar vulnerability for scouts. Scouts (right behind vehicle pilots) are among the lowest risk suits, unless your playstyle is insanely aggressive. The scout suit isn't particularly vulnerable; the playstyle some scouts prefer is. I've ranted about this enough, so I'll close with one final point: The biggest coward in the game, Duna, jumps out of his tank when its about to blow, and runs back to his redline to call in another tank. He works hard to keep his deaths as low as possible. What suit does he prefer? Not an assault, not a heavy, not a commando, and certainly not a logi. He runs a scout, because ITS the most survivable and lowest risk suit in the game. He jumps out, cloaks and runs away. And routinely gets away. That's not a vulnerable "high risk" suit. Its absurd, and frankly a little insulting to everyone's intelligence for you to suggest otherwise, just because some of the most aggressive players prefer using scout suits because they're so cheap while still being very lethal. He isn't in here in good faith, he's in here campaigning to have his propaganda accepted. If we buy it in here he can point to it from other area of conversation as tacit support for his cause. That cause being scouts as the most powerful of frames under the most diverse of conditions. Scouts as they were, scouts as scout zealots such as he feel they deserve to be. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 756	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:05:00 - [1409] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: I NEED TO FIND AS SCANNING RESOURCE - I don't want to just dump number hunting onto you, I'd rather have some of my own answers. - I remember looking at one. I'll have to find it. Here are two: Borrowed from Barbershop Borrowed from Haerr To the best of my knowledge, Protofit's EWAR values are also up-to-date. So I see you have continued to successfully derail our thread, QQing about the imbalance of the scout. Please for the love of god ignore this poor scout so we can continue on with the logistics and support. If he wants to discuss this he can START HIS OWN THREAD IN F&B, or better yet go to the barbershop where he belongs. Here is a merc (RedBleach) who wants to better understand EWAR, EWAR balance, and perspectives of EWAR units opposite his role. As his proposal includes significant EWAR changes, does it not stand to reason that he might benefit from new found knowledge? "No knowledge is to be despised." - Joseph Needham yes, Thank you for your help. It was the Haerr page I was looking for. Proto fits is great for current values, but testing values I needed to find the formulas again, thank you. And This thread is about balancing logis, and balance applies to the entirety of the game and how this role affects all else in the game. While I get that some feel this conversation is derailing the thread I must disagree and point to the lack of other activity. Few were taking action, posting, providing numbers, and working on something - even if it is disagreed upon - creating a presentation or summation of works or opinions. This conversation about the GAL LOGI vs scout sparked a conversation. It was this conversation that helped me start work on defining the logi again and reworking some proposal numbers - THAT HAVE STOOD STAGNANT FOR MONTHS from the original post, even after several updates. I may or may not agree with many of the opinions here, but without opposition or discussion there can be no growth, nothing more to give CCP or the CPM. I have tried to bring the discussion into focus several times and received little to no feedback - EXCEPT from the "Scout guy" - who has actually looked at some of my work, Helped with numbers, and provided Feedback. el OPERATOR was it not you that wanted the Logi to be better at EWAR? I'm working on it, Gal Logi applies, how it affects scouts applies. If it wasn't you, perhaps Meee One. Eitherway, I'm getting values, working with someone to see how that would play out in game. I understand your concerns and how you have felt about this discussion and I can agree that sometimes certain posts have been more scout centric. I feel that this discussion applies to our logi balance, and I will continue until I have some numbers that can better reflect the desires of the logi community and be realistic enough to garner approval from the DEVs rather than having it dismissed because it was too OP or did not take into account other game factors. I do this for the team. I would appreciate your help. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 858	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:14:00 - [1410] - Quote If ain't broke, don't fix it. Mind the dates on posts and their relative timing to subsequent fixes and patches. Just because this thread has required us keeping it alive does not warrant it becoming the scoutbuffideaspitballing room. The buffs that Logis are due can be done without undoing the general balance we currently have, provided we don't allow the interjection of the unneccessary. Current overall balance being largely agreed upon as good as has been seen in a loooong time. We get our buffs and truthfully, IMO, CCP will be able to focus less on this constant frame-balancing situation and more on generating new content . New vehicles, new weapons, new maps, new modes, new frames etc etc etc The dog and pony show has to stop somewhere. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 756	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:18:00 - [1411] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Agreed. An overheat that seizes the repair or more diminished returns with WP are not the answer. It is a barrier to new logis that creates a steep learning curve and will also lead to cursed frustration whenever that limit is reached in battle. Especially in a situation where those reps would have allowed your team to hold a point, survive, or turned the tide of battle. Overheat no. A warm up capacitor to reward actual repping - meaning that when it is repairing it is increasing in efficiency and when it is tethered but not repping it begins to cool down - is a method that rewards active repping with a direct battle effect. This affects repping behavior and has a greater possibility to lead to the desired behavior of smart repping rather than "leashing" an entire match. That said - you can't force anyone to play the way you want them to. All we can do is provide tools and allow players to use them however they see fit. You will have that guy that is dedicated to pistols, RE's, LZR, or other situational/unique items and we cant change that. All that can be done is to give fair rules of play for all. An overheat is punishing to a class that draws players for the reason that they don't want to/or have to shoot, or they are just not good at it. But being able to leash another player, help out, and provide other support may fill that need of fun, purpose, or entertainment that we all seek by playing games, and that's perfect for people like me. I believe that the majority of users would find the overheat a bane to the class and alienate players even further. While it is unique, and may offer a minority of users a new thrill for a while the permanency of such a change, and how that might affect future changes in the mechanics of other items is not something that can be supported. Capacitors or warm up mechanics maybe. Seizing/stopping/arresting/halting/etc.... just no. Overheat is a flat NO I agree. I like your idea with the capacitor, but I think it should be introduced as a variant at each level and see how it works in realtime vs what we envision. You know how things tend to get jumbled up when introduced. That way tweaks can be made until it is right. I would like to see it at about 225 reps per second at Proto. A little more than half of the sustained DPS of a basic assault rifle. I understand your not wanting more diminishing returns in WP for repairing, Right now there is a hard cap set (I don't remember what it is ). I suggested the diminishing returns as an alternative to a hard cap so we still receive points for repairing the whole time. I have changed my suggestion of stopping at 0. Examples numbers are negotiable. 1min 25 points 2min 20 points 3min 10 points 4min 5 points 5min or longer 1point. The hard drop between 2 and 3 minutes is to encourage releasing the lock when not in direct combat. To reset the timer, lock on should be dropped for 5 (maybe longer) seconds, to force a release. This should stop the release and quickly re-lock to reset WP acquisition. Forcing you to stop repairing for an extended time if you want better WPs, not just keep going and resetting every time your target is hit or they kill someone. I also believe that Guardian points should be dropped to 25 the same as an assist and should follow the same diminishing returns as the repair tool. That is a positive suggestion. If I understand you correctly you are wanting some incentive mechanic to make a logi disengage for a moment, an incentive to look up and take note of the situation. I feel like the numbers may need adjusting for the initial time, some intense battles where you are just pinned down can take 2-3 minutes before there is a lull enough to feel confident in dropping the lock. Maybe moving the Hard drop to the 3 Min mark. That said a 2xstreamer sucks to re-engage when you finally just got the two people you needed locked in the swarm of moving bodies. I can't say that I'm on board but I do appreciate the work you put into it. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 756	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:27:00 - [1412] - Quote Meee One wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Adjusted the original google docs to reflect some of my feelings for a more survivable logi, I backed off on the better shield recharge (that seemed more like an Assault thing) to add better hacking and better ewar. Adjusted bonues, increased strafe speed, etc. Set up new slot layouts and tier progression. Left the whole sidearm thing to CCP to deal with, but provided options. The ewar precision and range is random numbers, i did not check what the values would be if maxed out (sorry). But it is still something, numbers that CCP wants provided (as they say - players doing the legwork). Can always go higher on the range... but will have to number test it so it doesn't become a Cal Scout issue of seeing the entire battlefield again. Please, tell me what you think. RedBleach's Logi Proposal ...You reduced scan accuracy and stamina,as well as stamina pool,for 10%on scan radius? Lol no I actually prefer cross',i'll survive longer. I don't know how to feel about that. Happy that logistics are buffed? Sad that the buffs are low? I'll go with happy i spose' that stamina will come in useful. Man.... I'll review the numbers again! Cross' were the originals up top mine are the ones below.... I really was quite sure I was working of the most recent proposal - maybe I'm completely off I buffed most things like HP, current precision (lower is better) and increased the normal ring scan range - not the edge of the fall off. Perhaps I'll add the shield recharges again. The original proposal was a low buff, but still not enough. Thanks for the input, I'll work on it some more this afternoon. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 756	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:32:00 - [1413] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Quick note about the "counter" to "scouts" in scanning- 1. More than 1 scout frame is able, while properly modded, to defeat scans entirely. That is to say, able to beat all scanners all the time outright. 2. More than one scout frame is enabled when scanned to know that they've been scanned via a nice fat warning message on their screen that says, " You have been SCANNED". SO, when they've been scanned they can change what or how they're doing what they're doing before failing or being killed. 3. This terribly OP uberscanner that wreaks devastation across all games and modes and eviscerated a whole genre of gameplay here has the shortest lightup time (10-15 seconds) the narrowest arc (~45-¦) and the shortest range (100m). (not in front of a stat spreadsheet so figures may be a little off, but those are the gist of them) Even fully loaded with 4 of these things the top suit (GalLogi) for using them is still only able to scan those narrow arcs for those short periods. AND SCOUTS CAN STILL BEAT IT. 4. STEALTH, like any other weapon we have in here is open to everyone, ANY suit can be used to lurk n beast. Scout frames, by design are the most powerful in this regard. And among the scout class certain frames are better than others in more conditions for it. Kind of like our Uplinks, anyone w/eq can carry them, anyone w/eq can pitch them BUT if you want the fastest possible links out then you'll need to use the AmarrLogi. A slow, cumbersome logi not particularly well-suited out of the box for link running, btw. ALL scouts are more than stealthy as hell vs. all other frames. AND they can mod the fit so that they outright defeat their counter, the "OP" Proto GalLogi Proto Active Scans. The GalLogi bonusing, Cocentric Falloff AND Cloak stats ALL cumulatively create a SUM total of something resembling balance between Scout frames and all others. Scouts refused to tolerate other outright stat nerfs that were proposed to balance their OP bs, suggestions like going single equipment, going sidearm only, being made slightly slower, having outright fitting restrictions on hp mods etc. So, instead, the suite of tweaks that occurred were created and applied, scout OPness came down a notch and overall balance became better. NOW the effort to try and rollback the balancing is afoot and trying to interject itself here because we're on deck for buffs so a patch or fix will happen that could be an opportunity for scouts to regain their utterly dominant position among frames overall. ** THAT *, I say. BTW, had a DOM match vs Mr.GoBang there last Monday. I spent the whole match scanning him, his club and his team. He ultimately sg'd me twice (from his Cal std bpo), went 10-3 on the leaderboard and his team won the match. Thos uber OP GalLogi scans didn't kill him, didn't unhack anything, didn't freeze him in place or make him totally defenseless (he still had his speed, his tank, his gank and his wit) and didn't drop an OB on him. In PC we see scouts, full pro no halfassing it scouts, all the time. They are game changers and playmakers (as they should be) AND they defeat scanners ALL the time, hiding on catwalks raining re's, spamming their own scanners* , dropping links, running-and-gunning, ripping off speed hacks left and right etc so this crap about scans being too OP is exactly that: crap. Thank you for this, I'm too unfamiliar with scouts and scanners. Repps, hives, needles, and the CAL, AMARR, and Minmatar logis I know well - Galente and the Active Scanners have never been my strong point, but to try and help. I'll keep working. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 756	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:43:00 - [1414] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: If ain't broke, don't fix it. Mind the dates on posts and their relative timing to subsequent fixes and patches. Just because this thread has required us keeping it alive does not warrant it becoming the scoutbuffideaspitballing room. The buffs that Logis are due can be done without undoing the general balance we currently have, provided we don't allow the interjection of the unneccessary. Current overall balance being largely agreed upon as good as has been seen in a loooong time. We get our buffs and truthfully, IMO, CCP will be able to focus less on this constant frame-balancing situation and more on generating new content . New vehicles, new weapons, new maps, new modes, new frames etc etc etc The dog and pony show has to stop somewhere. True Dat The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 756	Posted - 2015.02.27 20:59:00 - [1415] - Quote IF CCP/CPM is listening One of the changes I address in my log is Tier and Tier steps for as we all know the CAL and Gal Tiers are messed up, making them unequal to the other logis at all but the Proto level. But let us also look at the starting out as a logi and differentiating from the scout start as well. Fully readjusting the tier scaling. The point has been made that a starting Amarr and Caldari have the same starting EQ as their scout counter parts, making a scout the better logi in the beginning. Only at ADV level an on do we see a difference in EQ slots and the regular H/L slot count. YET scouts start with 2. At every level. It never changes moving through the tiers. IF history has set rules then the maximum slot count should only be achieved at the proto level. Possibel maxing of EQ slots at the ADV level as seen with the Amarr and Caldari. If that is the Case shouldn't scouts start with 1 EQ slot and get the second slot only at ADV or Proto as slot progression has previously been determined? Realizing that this would create a great cry among the scouts with wailing and gnashing of teeth, would it then not be better to take a cue from the scout setup and have logis start out with their max as well? - Yes Or at the very least start them with 3 EQ (for some this is the maximum) to make them the EQ specific role from the beginning and differentiate them from starting scouts (logi light) in the beginning? Yes. Crappier Stats same slot count?! Lets move away from that. FOR EXAMPLE Minmatar Logi Changes - Progressive EQ Flatening 5H/4L/4E 4H/3L/4E 3H/2L/4E or AMARR 4H/5L/3E Proto 3H/4L/3E ADV 2H/3L/3E Basic alt. 3H/5L/4E 2H/4L/4E 2H/3L/4E Because Logi should be a Logi from the start 4EQ is a logi, for every class an upgrade is an increase in the H/L slots. Maintain that tradition or we should see the only other class with more than 1 EQ slot have a progression as well, i.e. scouts only get 1EQ until Proto grants them a second. At the very least each should start with 3 EQ The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 260	Posted - 2015.02.27 23:32:00 - [1416] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Its nice to see that you're in a thread about buffing the weakest class in the game, arguing for buffing scouts that aren't under-powered Select Category:Dropsuits Commandos are the weakest class in the game. If Logis are underpowered and underutilized, so are Scouts and Heavies. Hilarious. I like how your chart somehow shows that commandos are the weakest class in the game, but magically avoids showing that scouts are still OP, or at the very least still much stronger than logis. But yeah, keep arguing for nerfing scans so assaults can avoid being scanned too. As your chart shows, assaults and scouts need all thelp they can get. /Sarcasm. Again, arguments that poor are an insult to your audience's intelligence. You're bringing me around though: I'm starting to think that nerfing scouts again might be more important than buffing logis. Look at how high they are on your chart! Lol. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7010	Posted - 2015.02.27 23:35:00 - [1417] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Its nice to see that you're in a thread about buffing the weakest class in the game, arguing for buffing scouts that aren't under-powered Select Category:Dropsuits Commandos are the weakest class in the game. If Logis are underpowered and underutilized, so are Scouts and Heavies. Hilarious. I like how your chart somehow shows that commandos are the weakest class in the game, but magically avoids showing that scouts are still OP, or at the very least still much stronger than logis. But yeah, keep arguing for nerfing scans so assaults can avoid being scanned too. As your chart shows, assaults and scouts need all thelp they can get. /Sarcasm. Again, arguments that poor are an insult to your audience's intelligence. You're bringing me around though: I'm starting to think that nerfing scouts again might be more important than buffing logis. Look at how high they are on your chart! Lol. That isn't my chart. It's a 3rd party, SDE-driven website. I believe it has been unmanned (i.e. automated) since FF2014. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5070	Posted - 2015.02.28 00:11:00 - [1418] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Its nice to see that you're in a thread about buffing the weakest class in the game, arguing for buffing scouts that aren't under-powered Select Category:Dropsuits Commandos are the weakest class in the game. If Logis are underpowered and underutilized, so are Scouts and Heavies. Hilarious. I like how your chart somehow shows that commandos are the weakest class in the game, but magically avoids showing that scouts are still OP, or at the very least still much stronger than logis. But yeah, keep arguing for nerfing scans so assaults can avoid being scanned too. As your chart shows, assaults and scouts need all thelp they can get. /Sarcasm. Again, arguments that poor are an insult to your audience's intelligence. You're bringing me around though: I'm starting to think that nerfing scouts again might be more important than buffing logis. Look at how high they are on your chart! Lol. That isn't my chart. Dust.thang.dk is a 3rd party, SDE-driven website kinda like protofits. I believe it has been unmanned (i.e. on autopilot) since FF2014. The historical data you see there is as legit as it gets. Here's their Community Spotlight: http://dust514.com/news/blog/2014/01/community-spotlight/ This historical data section (above) updates every few days; I believe this section polls data daily: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php To be fair, those charts simply show units sold right? Amount sold does not necessarily mean that the suit itself is good or bad, its a measure of popularity and it really doesn't surprise me that Commandos are the least popular....they're an odd niche sort of role, but they're not bad by any means. I think they need a slight buff, but in general when I play as a Commando I feel sufficiently powerful. Logistics on the other hand.....holy ** I'm squishy. Unnecessarily squishy. I mean you can look at market sales all day, but in my experience things like the Commando feel pretty good....playing as Logistics really does not. "That little st Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7030	Posted - 2015.02.28 01:41:00 - [1419] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: To be fair, those charts simply show units sold right? Amount sold does not necessarily mean that the suit itself is good or bad, its a measure of popularity ... Yes, all we can see here are unit sales and how they've changed over time. You can almost date Uprising 1.10 looking only at the timeline alone. We can see how Logi usage rates improved slightly (presumably due to Bandwidth) and how Scout usage tanked as Falloff proved sufficiently potent to convince the slayers to drop the Scout suit in favor of Assault. Farewell and good riddance, Assault Lite. o/ Usage rates don't show us everything or prove anything, but they do tell us a part of the story. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5070	Posted - 2015.02.28 02:06:00 - [1420] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: To be fair, those charts simply show units sold right? Amount sold does not necessarily mean that the suit itself is good or bad, its a measure of popularity ... Yes, all we can see here are unit sales and how they've changed over time. You can almost date Uprising 1.10 looking only at the timeline alone. We can see how Logi usage rates improved slightly (presumably due to Bandwidth) and how Scout usage tanked as Falloff proved sufficiently potent to convince the slayers to drop the Scout suit in favor of Assault. Farewell and good riddance, Assault Lite. o/ Usage rates don't show us everything or prove anything, but they do tell us a part of the story. I hear ya. I just really hope the Logis get some serious love really soon. They keep getting passed over in favor of Rifle Rebalance, again, and other things of the sort. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7032	Posted - 2015.02.28 05:18:00 - [1421] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: ... I just really hope the Logis get some serious love really soon. They keep getting passed over in favor of Roll Rifle Rebalance, again, and other things of the sort. They keep getting passed over in favor of Rifle Rebalance, again, and other things of the sort. Sep -24 Hotfix Delta Dev Blog "We are buffing Logistics in a big way by changing the Nanite Injector to heal Shields as well. Now those prototype needles are sounding great, right?" Oct 28 - Uprising 1.9 Dev Blog "Nanite Injectors can now only be used on Teammates that have requested assistance by pressing the GÇ£Call for HelpGÇ¥ button. This may seem like a double edged sword to Logistics players, but the recent buff to Nanite Injectors should make it very likely that players will request help. This change is also implemented for players that absolutely do not want to be revived for various reasons. Another buff to Logistics players is that Active Scanners can now share scan results with either Team or Squad. " Dec 02 - Uprising 1.10 Dev Blog "The Logistics Dropsuits will be getting more recognition as the primary Support role with the addition of Equipment Bandwidth. Players can now deploy Equipment as long as their sum of Equipment Bandwidth Cost does not exceed their Dropsuit Bandwidth Capacity and of course Logistics will have the highest Bandwidth. Going above the Bandwidth Capacity will result in the self-destruction of deployed Equipment, in the sequence it was deployed. Therefore a new Attribute, Bandwidth Cost (Mb/s), has been added to all deployable Equipment. On top of that all Equipment now has a tiered Scan Profile, getting better with each tier so Logistics can choose to deploy Equipment that is more difficult to locate. The final Logistics buff is then the addition of improved WP rewards per tier of Nanite Injector." (+ secret buff to scan range) In terms of "serious" attention/love/changes, you're going to have a hard time topping Bandwidth. I can see things being tweaked and improved upon, but I don't see how or where there'd be room for major changes. Examples of tweaks: * Tweak Bandwidth * Tweak Equipment Performance * Decrease cost of Logi Frame and/or EQ * Add 1 EQ Slot to STD Logi Frame (+ PG/CPU) * Swap Speed with Assaults (or) Increase Base HP I think that any of these could be argued as reasonable, and I don't think that any of these would upset balance. We could (theoretically) take a gamble and recast the Logi as support + counter-infiltration by buffing its passive scan strengths. It already has the best scan range; this range could be augmented with the best scan precision. In terms of gameplay, the Logi at the heart of a blob could provide his blob with near omniscience via shared passives and even greater resistance to flank/surprise attack. This design would undoubtedly cause balance problems, but if "blob warfare" is a desirable model and/or deemed necessary, we could work around the balance issues by ~~tweaking~~ overhauling and renaming Scouts. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 1902	Posted - 2015.02.28 06:51:00 - [1422] - Quote Nah, the last thing we need is another overhaul. We're very close to balance as is, no need for radical changes which could take months and many iterations to fix. I'm dubious as to whether or not logis actually need to be looked at much, but I don't play logi too much so I guess I'm willing to take the word of more experienced players. If I were to make changes it would be to a) reduce the cost of equipment across the board and b) tiericide logi dropsuit equipment slots so STD suits could fit as much equipment as PRO suits can. Does that sound reasonable? Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5076	Posted - 2015.02.28 07:07:00 - [1423] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Well first of all, I've never seen bandwidth as a real 'buff' to Logistics, I've always considered it a nerf to the support capabilities of Non-Logi suits, but bandwidth did nothing to allow Logistics to do a better job than they were doing before. Did it make Logistics more essential? Totally. Did it make them BETTER? Not really. Also the work with the Nanite injector was great.....and it is indeed a buff to anyone who uses nanite injectors (even non-Logistics). My point is that the suit itself....is lacking. Overly squishy and difficult to move in, and I'd argue that its bonuses are generally too restrictive (but that's a huge argument I've already gone through previously in this thread). I think at the VERY least, the total number of slots each tier of Logi has should be equivalent to the number of slots its equivalent Assault has. So 4 for STD, 6 for ADV, 8 for PRO. Ideally I'd just say match the slot layout directly but I know some will argue against that. (Currently Proto Logis have a fairly similar slot layout to Assaults, I dont see why this shouldn't carry through to lower tiers as well) Once that's done I'd say probably a slight increase to HP, probably around the 50-60HP range. Not as much as the Assaults got when they were buffed, but still a bit more to compensate for same factors that merited the Assault HP buff. I wouldn't touch movement speed, I still think they should be slower than Assaults. What I would dial up however is Stamina. Its not all that useful in a firefight which makes it innately weaker than the Assault in direct combat, but it does allow the Logi to be mobile because it needs to stop less to catch its breath. Naturally people will cry "SLAYER LOGI" but note that the Logi would still maintain less overall HP than the Assault and still be slower. Additionally the Logi still lacks the massive defensive bonuses that made the ole' Slayer Logi OP in the first place, and it also lacks any of the weapon support skills that the Assault has. What you end up with is a suit that doesn't vaporize the second someone looks at it, but it's also not something that preferable over an Assault when it comes to direct combat. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 483	Posted - 2015.02.28 10:50:00 - [1424] - Quote Buff the survivability, and give logis the same amount of EQ slots for all tiers. It's highly annoying, that you can't run the same assortment of EQ (with lovwer guality) than you can on a pro suit. That makes it very difficult to run a similar setup with a lower tier suit. You pretty much always miss something from your usual setup. All other suits have no changes in EQ slotcount over tiers. If we have less at base and/or advanced, why don't scout have only one slot at basic? So full EQ slotcount from basic on. Said it before, give us a quickdraw EQ slot (like the sidearm slot on other suits) to switch back and forth betwheen one EQ and the light weapon. Buff the survivability of the logi. It's way too squishy now. It needs to be able to move faster, to be able to keep up with the pack.
Jebus McKing Nos Nothi 1559	Posted - 2015.02.28 11:58:00 - [1425] - Quote Logis DEFINATELY DON'T need to get their survivability buffed. Good Logis are already always on top of the killboard with low deathcounts because of the massive amounts of WPs we can farm without taking too many risks. If you do your job right, you won't have many issues surviving as a Logi. Logis are the weakest combat suits but not entirely defenseless, and it should remain like that. - The changes the Logi needs the most in my opinion is a reduction in the ISK cost for equipment, because properly fit Logi suits are way more expensive than any other fitting. - Also, the slot progression has to be looked at. Currently it looks like that: [Race: STD -> ADV -> PRO] (number of slots (high, low, equip, sidearm)) Amarr: 7 -> 10 -> 11 Caldari: 5 -> 8 -> 12 Gallente: 5 -> 8 -> 12 Minmatar: 7 -> 9 -> 12 I'd propose to give them the same slot layout and progression as Assault suits. Then give all tiers the same number of equipment slots as the proto variant has. In the case of the Caldari Logi they have to vote on either getting a fourth equipment slot or keep their additional low slot. I'm not a CA Logi so I can't say what is more useful to them. - Another thing we might consider is switching Assault movement speed with Logi movement speed. This would make sense becasue of two reasons: 1. A suit that has less HP should probably be quicker than its counter part with more HP. 2. The job of the Logi involves running around a lot, so this would be a nice buff for Logis to become better at their job. Other than those 3 points, I think Logis are fine as they are. Jebus hates scans.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 260	Posted - 2015.02.28 15:33:00 - [1426] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: That isn't my chart. Is English your first language? The possessive "your" doesn't only mean creation or ownership of something. The easiest example of this is "your country." In this context "your evidence" in support of your point, doesn't need to be created or owned by you. "Your chart" the one YOU are citing as an authority to indicate that commandos are the weakest suit instead of logis, undermines every other argument you've made in this thread to avoid the idea that scouts are still OP compared to logis. Its not true that logis are underpowered because of your chart. As Pokey's pointed out, its a very weak authority for making any conclusions about suit strength. But for you to cite it anyway, while it contradicts your other assertions about the relative strengths of logis and scouts, suggests that you really aren't here to argue in good faith. You're making a sham argument. Instead of conceding when you're caught making terrible arguments, you change the subject, or make another different sham argument. That kind of "shotgun" (not a pun about shotgun scouts; but a broader description of a rhetorical tactics that avoids a single best argument, like a rifle bullet, in favor of many tiny bad arguments, like shot gun pellets) approach to a discussion invites people to have a low regard for your thoughts and opinions. You can not be taken seriously until you concede what is obvious to anyone who isn't a scout/assault zealot: Logis are the weakest suit in the game. Gal Logi scans are not OP just because assaults can't beat them and scouts actually need to fit appropriately to beat them; that is balanced, not OP. And finally, when you make a bad argument, you need to be able to concede its weakness, or withdraw it entirely. Its that last failure that makes you look more and more trollish over time. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 159	Posted - 2015.02.28 15:36:00 - [1427] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Logis DEFINATELY DON'T need to get their survivability buffed. Good Logis are already always on top of the killboard with low deathcounts because of the massive amounts of WPs we can farm without taking too many risks. If you do your job right, you won't have many issues surviving as a Logi. Logis are the weakest combat suits but not entirely defenseless, and it should remain like that. Jebus, I agree with everything else you have listed, but it sounds like you have an issue with the ability to earn WP. When your using your repair tool no matter how good you are you still need to right in the middle of everything, more so because your on point with the Heavys and Assaults. If your team mates have to go around a corner you have to go with them. Assuming your playing as a team and not soloing. A Logi's WP come from many sources All of which are available to every class. The logi race bonus helps improve the use of their specific piece of equipment. Just the same as the the other roles have bonuses that improve their capabilities. Assaults bonuses to light weapons, Heavies resistance to specific types of damage, Scouts bonuses to damps and precision, Commandos bonuses to damage output of light weapons. Repair Tool is the best source of WP, and non logi's usually won't carry one with some exceptions. I have watched a scout use and out repair me just because of how well they can move around, probably another logi just using a faster suit to do his job better. I have personally used a Commando to run reps that is also interesting and a change of pace, and I still did just as well with WP and I had a better KD as well. Drop Links, any one can use one, drop it in a good spot and you will see the points. Nano Injector All suits get the same WP for reviving a team mate. I like working in a squad because my Assaults and Scouts will carry one to revive me when I am killed, because I carry the hives they need to replenish . I wish more people would use them that run solo, but I understand that they need to support themselves and carry hives for resupply. Nano Hives, most people carry one, especially if they solo. I think that the Nano Hive needs an increase in capacity because the basic hive can not even fully restock 2 people. Scanners, If you want to see where the enemy is you use your equipment slot for a scanner to show your team mates where to go and earn the points from intel assists. Anybody, except a heavy, can use the equipment and get the same results as a logi. Dust is unlike any other shooter out their because it includes a viable and important support role. But that support role needs to be able to survive just as well as any other suit. We are not asking for a large increase to ehp, like Pokey suggested 50-60 is a good spot. There are a lot of times that the kill board has logi's on top, I am there a lot when I play with a good squad. When playing with a squad you will notice that usually the whole squad is very close to the same rankings on the kill board. This is because of the synergy of the group and having the ability to have everything they need, spread between their squad mates. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 260	Posted - 2015.02.28 16:02:00 - [1428] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: - Another thing we might consider is switching Assault movement speed with Logi movement speed. This would make sense becasue of two reasons: 1. A suit that has less HP should probably be quicker than its counter part with more HP. 2. The job of the Logi involves running around a lot, so this would be a nice buff for Logis to become better at their job. I appreciate that lots of logis would prefer the speed, I also see the merit in making logis the second slowest and tankiest suits, right behind heavies. What about covering that range of speed/tank balance within the logi class? In other words, making the Amarr logi almost as slow and tanky as a heavy, and making the Minmatar logi almost as fast and lightly tanked as a scout? In other words on the continuum of Tankiness and slowness: Scouts -Min Logi - Cal Logi - Gal logi - Amar Logi - Heavies with assaults somewhere in the middle? The flexibility of a plated and shield extended Amar logi approaching the eHP of a heavy and a kincat Min logi approaching the speed of a scout is appealing to me. I'm also fine with that kincat Min Logi being paper thin, and that Amar logi being as brutally slow as a heavy. I've love to be able to keep up with a scout squad, or survive with a point defense Heavy squad, instead of being stuck in the middle or at either end of that continuum. I'd love to use that kincat min logi as my initial uplink deployer instead of a scout suit. I'd love to switch to that Amar logi, if I know I'm being deployed (and transported to the point) with a heavy. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 159	Posted - 2015.02.28 16:02:00 - [1429] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Overheat is a flat NO I agree. I like your idea with the capacitor, but I think it should be introduced as a variant at each level and see how it works in realtime vs what we envision. You know how things tend to get jumbled up when introduced. That way tweaks can be made until it is right. I would like to see it at about 225 reps per second at Proto. A little more than half of the sustained DPS of a basic assault rifle. I understand your not wanting more diminishing returns in WP for repairing, Right now there is a hard cap set (I don't remember what it is ). I suggested the diminishing returns as an alternative to a hard cap so we still receive points for repairing the whole time. I have changed my suggestion of stopping at 0. Examples numbers are negotiable. 1min 25 points 2min 20 points 3min 10 points 4min 5 points 5min or longer 1point. The hard drop between 2 and 3 minutes is to encourage releasing the lock when not in direct combat. To reset the timer, lock on should be dropped for 5 (maybe longer) seconds, to force a release. This should stop the release and quickly re-lock to reset WP acquisition. Forcing you to stop repairing for an extended time if you want better WPs, not just keep going and resetting every time your target is hit or they kill someone. I also believe that Guardian points should be dropped to 25 the same as an assist and should follow the same diminishing returns as the repair tool. That is a positive suggestion. If I understand you correctly you are wanting some incentive mechanic to make a logi disengage for a moment, an incentive to look up and take note of the situation. I feel like the numbers may need adjusting for the initial time, some intense battles where you are just pinned down can take 2-3 minutes before there is a lull enough to feel confident in dropping the lock. Maybe moving the Hard drop to the 3 Min mark. That said a 2xstreamer sucks to re-engage when you finally just got the two people you needed locked in the swarm of moving bodies. I can't say that I'm on board but I do appreciate the work you put into it.[/quote] Thank you, Yes that is part of what I want, but I would like to loose the hard cap set on repairing. I think that we should get some small credit for all the repairs we do. I think in the end it would be about the same earnings in WP, Just a different approach. There are times that you just don't release the stream because if you do a clone dies, probably 2 clones to be honest. I agree with you about the 3 minute mark now that I look at it. An adjustment for the 3 Min mark. 1Min= 25 2MIn=20 3Min=15 4Min=05 5Min=01 Yes, until CCP fixes the function of the repair tool lock on it does suck. The first stream is usually easy but the second one, your right is very difficult to lock onto the right person. Then you have to drop lock and start over again, LOL. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 159	Posted - 2015.02.28 16:20:00 - [1430] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: yes, Thank you for your help. It was the Haerr page I was looking for. Proto fits is great for current values, but testing values I needed to find the formulas again, thank you. And This thread is about balancing logis, and balance applies to the entirety of the game and how this role affects all else in the game. While I get that some feel this conversation is derailing the thread I cant fully agree and point to the lack of other activity. Few were taking action, posting, providing numbers, and working on something - even if it is disagreed upon - creating a presentation or summation of works or opinions. This conversation about the GAL LOGI vs scout sparked a conversation. It was this conversation that helped me start work on defining the logi again and reworking some proposal numbers - THAT HAVE STOOD STAGNANT FOR MONTHS from the original post, even after several updates. I may or may not agree with many of the opinions here, but without opposition or discussion there can be no growth, nothing more to give CCP or the CPM. I have tried to bring the discussion into focus several times and received little to no feedback except from the "Scout guy" - who has actually looked at some of my work, Helped with numbers, and provided Feedback. el OPERATOR was it not you that wanted the Logi to be better at EWAR? I'm working on it, Gal Logi applies, how it affects scouts applies. If it wasn't you, perhaps Meee One. Eitherway, I'm getting values, working with someone to see how that would play out in game. But maybe this should go to another Thread as has been suggested. I understand your concerns and how you have felt about this discussion and I can agree that sometimes certain posts have been more scout centric. I feel that this discussion applies to our logi balance, and I will continue to work on the numbers until I have some numbers that can better reflect the desires of the logi community and be realistic enough to garner approval from the DEVs rather than having it dismissed because it was too OP or did not take into account other game factors. I do this for the team. I would appreciate your help. The community has my apologies. RedBleach, I appreciate what your trying to do, especially trying to get a balanced set of numbers. I even appreciate when "the Scout Guy" gives you a good source to use. A lot of times I don't give direct feedback (yes I know its bad) unless it is something that is drastically off. I happen to like your proposal and even like your suggestion for the heat up of the repair tool. I don't like most of the non logi suggestions for "fixing the repair tool". Keep up the good work, your doing a beneficial job for the Logi community at large and trying very hard not to overpower the Logi suit. Yes I have been very vocal about the Gal logi scanner bonus VS the Scout being in a separate thread. IMHO if it is to be discussed as deeply as Adipem wants, it needs to be in its own thread. This is so that the entire community can respond and debate the perceived balance / imbalance between them. From that thread you can get all the information you need and be able to refer back to it and post links to the specific posts you need as examples. Keep up the good work. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 862	Posted - 2015.02.28 23:30:00 - [1431] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Hurr durr, I'm a scout so no idea why I'm in here but notice me! I think Logis are fine as they are. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 862	Posted - 2015.02.28 23:34:00 - [1432] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: [Hurr durr, I'm a scout but have no idea why I'm in here except to say Notice me! and...] ...I don't play logi too much... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 862	Posted - 2015.02.28 23:37:00 - [1433] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That isn't my chart. Is English your first language? The possessive "your" doesn't only mean creation or ownership of something. The easiest example of this is "your country." In this context "your evidence" in support of your point, doesn't need to be created or owned by you. "Your chart" the one YOU are citing as an authority to indicate that commandos are the weakest suit instead of logis, undermines every other argument you've made in this thread to avoid the idea that scouts are still OP compared to logis. Its not true that logis are underpowered because of your chart. As Pokey's pointed out, its a very weak authority for making any conclusions about suit strength. But for you to cite it anyway, while it contradicts your other assertions about the relative strengths of logis and scouts, suggests that you really aren't here to argue in good faith. You're making a sham argument. Instead of conceding when you're caught making terrible arguments, you change the subject, or make another different sham argument. That kind of "shotgun" (not a pun about shotgun scouts; but a broader description of a rhetorical tactics that avoids a single best argument, like a rifle bullet, in favor of many tiny bad arguments, like shot gun pellets) approach to a discussion invites people to have a low regard for your thoughts and opinions. You can not be taken seriously until you concede what is obvious to anyone who isn't a scout/assault zealot: Logis are the weakest suit in the game. Gal Logi scans are not OP just because assaults can't beat them and scouts actually need to fit appropriately to beat them; that is balanced, not OP. And finally, when you make a bad argument, you need to be able to concede its weakness, or withdraw it entirely. Its that last failure that makes you look more and more trollish over time. ^^^^^^Gets It^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 862	Posted - 2015.02.28 23:50:00 - [1434] - Quote SO, no more than 10 posts after this: el OPERATOR wrote: He isn't in here in good faith, he's in here campaigning to have his propaganda accepted. If we buy it in here he can point to it from other area of conversation as tacit support for his cause. That cause being scouts as the most powerful of frames under the most diverse of conditions. Scouts as they were, scouts as scout zealots such as he feel they deserve to be. comes THIS: Apidem Nothi wrote: We could (theoretically) take a gamble and recast the Logi as support + recon by buffing its passive scan strengths. When was the last time a Scout "scouted" anyway? The Logi already has the best scan range; this range could be augmented with the best scan precision. In terms of gameplay, the Logi at the heart of a blob could provide his blob with omniscience via shared passives and even greater resistance to flank/surprise attack. This design would undoubtedly cause balance problems, but if "blob warfare" is a desirable model and/or deemed necessary , we could work around the balance issues by tweakingoverhauling and renaming Scouts. Obviously obvious is obvious. And obviously does NOT belong here. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 862	Posted - 2015.03.01 00:01:00 - [1435] - Quote So when's the rest of the Nothi group gonna move in? The Logistics and Support thread doesn't have enough scouts crying in it yet about reduced direct combat ability and how stealth is difficult if maybe someone has a 45 degree sweep-area scanner that you'll need to be stealthy around to beat. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 1909	Posted - 2015.03.01 02:19:00 - [1436] - Quote Oh dear, I'm sorry I stumbled on your private thread and started ruining your discussion by talking about balance. I suppose it would be best to never interact with the logistics community then, as you are clearly the only one capable of understanding the deep, intricate balance problems at the heart of Dust. I guess the idea that logistics should be buffed is a terrible one when it's coming from somebody who doesn't play logi 24/7. Balance is not a one way road. It's not some thread where you try to whisper into the ears of the CPM and shun anybody who isn't part of your sekret klub. It affects everyone, so I suggest you get used to the idea of criticizing an argument based on its merits, instead of shooting it down because you don't like who's saying it. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1553	Posted - 2015.03.01 03:21:00 - [1437] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: Oh dear, I'm sorry I stumbled on your private thread and started ruining your discussion by talking about balance. I suppose it would be best to never interact with the logistics community then, as you are clearly the only one capable of understanding the deep, intricate balance problems at the heart of Dust. I guess the idea that logistics should be buffed is a terrible one when it's coming from somebody who doesn't play logi 24/7. Balance is not a one way road. It's not some thread where you try to whisper into the ears of the CPM and shun anybody who isn't part of your sekret klub. It affects everyone, so I suggest you get used to the idea of criticizing an argument based on its merits, instead of shooting it down because you don't like who's saying it. >The barber shop. Hypocrite. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1553	Posted - 2015.03.01 03:30:00 - [1438] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: - Another thing we might consider is switching Assault movement speed with Logi movement speed. This would make sense becasue of two reasons: 1. A suit that has less HP should probably be quicker than its counter part with more HP. 2. The job of the Logi involves running around a lot, so this would be a nice buff for Logis to become better at their job. I appreciate that lots of logis would prefer the speed, I also see the merit in making logis the second slowest and tankiest suits, right behind heavies. What about covering that range of speed/tank balance within the logi class? In other words, making the Amarr logi almost as slow and tanky as a heavy, and making the Minmatar logi almost as fast and lightly tanked as a scout? In other words on the continuum of Tankiness and slowness: Scouts -Min Logi - Cal Logi - Gal logi - Amar Logi - Heavies with assaults somewhere in the middle? The flexibility of a plated and shield extended Amar logi approaching the eHP of a heavy and a kincat Min logi approaching the speed of a scout is appealing to me. I'm also fine with that kincat Min Logi being paper thin, and that Amar logi being as brutally slow as a heavy. I've love to be able to keep up with a scout squad, or survive with a point defense Heavy squad, instead of being stuck in the middle or at either end of that continuum. I'd love to use that kincat min logi as my initial uplink deployer instead of a scout suit. I'd love to switch to that Amar logi, if I know I'm being deployed (and transported to the point) with a heavy. The problem is eHP made logistics to be FOTM. Personally i've found speed and stamina are much better than eHP,i survive longer. As to tiercide,i'm with that... But has anyone considered the new meta-lock in that scenario(or its current scenario)? Basic logistics vs (enemy) adv gear Adv logistics vs (enemy) Pro gear Pro logistics vs (enemy) Officer gear I predict unless safety proofed for,future logistics will be put up against enemies a gear level up from them. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7084	Posted - 2015.03.01 04:25:00 - [1439] - Quote Meee One wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Oh dear, I'm sorry I stumbled on your private thread and started ruining your discussion by talking about balance. I suppose it would be best to never interact with the logistics community then, as you are clearly the only one capable of understanding the deep, intricate balance problems at the heart of Dust. I guess the idea that logistics should be buffed is a terrible one when it's coming from somebody who doesn't play logi 24/7. Balance is not a one way road. It's not some thread where you try to whisper into the ears of the CPM and shun anybody who isn't part of your sekret klub. It affects everyone, so I suggest you get used to the idea of criticizing an argument based on its merits, instead of shooting it down because you don't like who's saying it. >The barber shop. Hypocrite. What of it? The Barbershop has a couple crazies like any sub-community, but it also has an excellent track record for generating and vetting solid, well-balanced ideas. Those who think the thread is about "Scout Superiority" aren't paying close enough attention; the majority of Scout nerfs implemented between 1.8 and present originated in the Barbershop. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 1909	Posted - 2015.03.01 04:37:00 - [1440] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Meee One wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Oh dear, I'm sorry I stumbled on your private thread and started ruining your discussion by talking about balance. I suppose it would be best to never interact with the logistics community then, as you are clearly the only one capable of understanding the deep, intricate balance problems at the heart of Dust. I guess the idea that logistics should be buffed is a terrible one when it's coming from somebody who doesn't play logi 24/7. Balance is not a one way road. It's not some thread where you try to whisper into the ears of the CPM and shun anybody who isn't part of your sekret klub. It affects everyone, so I suggest you get used to the idea of criticizing an argument based on its merits, instead of shooting it down because you don't like who's saying it. >The barber shop. Hypocrite. What of it? The Barbershop has a couple crazies like any sub-community, but it also has an excellent track record for generating and vetting solid, well-balanced ideas. Those who think the thread is about "Scout Superiority" aren't paying close enough attention; the majority of Scout nerfs implemented between 1.8 and present originated in the Barbershop. What he said. We get plenty of visitors and don't vie for any kind of special developer attention. Hell, even our corp is accepting open applications. You're welcome to stop by anytime you like to discuss or shoot the shit with us. That's about as open as it gets. At the end of the day, this is a community for a video game. We're all here to have fun and socialize. There's no reason to act all exclusionary and hostile over something as harmless as that. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.

RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 760	Posted - 2015.03.01 04:41:00 - [1441] - Quote 2/27/2015 Defining the class - Base Stats HP Regen Part of the Original discussions for Cross' proposal concerning health and stamina pools were whether a logi should have a greater pool or higher recharge rates. We usually see the progression in HP as Higher HP Pools = Lower Shield Recharge rates and with Stamina we see the same but logis are continually the exception and messing up the Battle Standard. To be randomly made weaker to explain carrying equipment I guess.... BUT that only works IFF all logi suits were distinctly different from a scout with 2 EQ. But currently there is a lack of balanced reasons for the current setup. In many ways the logi has stats closer to Scout and assault and at other times closer to the sentinel and commando sides. This is common knowledge to this community, I know. I'm just trying to think where the line should be drawn. HP Pool: Current Sentinel> Commando> Assault> Logi> Scout Each Logi gains about 60hp total Shield regen amount: Current Scout> Assault> Logi> Commando> Sentinel - Cal is outlier. Disparity was too great. A greater value than the Assaults is in order because of Lower HP Amount is now between Assault and Scout. Shield delays: Scout> Logi> Assault> Commando> Sentinel - Cal is outlier. Maintained but closer to scout than Assault. Stamina pool and rate are: Scout> Assault> Logi> Commando> Sentinel Previously decided to have larger Stamina pools (we do just lug crap everywhere) and equal or lesser recovery rate Stamina Pool is between Scout and Assault now: Scout> Logi> Assault> Commando> Sentinel Armor regen should be better for a logi due to the nature of the class, but this doesn't follow HP pool rules with all classes. That would mean that sentinels would have the highest repair rate and scouts the lowest, but it turns out that commandos and Logis were on par with repair rates and sentinels were just above scouts. Bizarre So, Armor repair rates are now the best between all the classes. Scanning profiles kept the same. Scanning precision up (down): Able to detect the micro deformities in the ships they work on = High F-ing Precision. Scan Radius Increased to Allow the Logi to be the master of Ewar Scanning. Movement Speed faster walk, slower sprint. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 163	Posted - 2015.03.01 05:57:00 - [1442] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: 2/27/2015 Defining the class - Base Stats Addressing the RedBleachproposal again HP Regen Part of the Original discussions for Cross' proposal concerning health and stamina pools were whether a logi should have a greater pool or higher recharge rates. We usually see the progression in HP as Higher HP Pools = Lower Shield Recharge rates and with Stamina we see the same but logis are continually the exception and messing up the Battle Standard. To be randomly made weaker to explain carrying equipment I guess.... BUT that only works IFF all logi suits were distinctly different from a scout with 2 EQ. But currently there is a lack of balanced reasons for the current setup. In many ways the logi has stats closer to Scout and assault and at other times closer to the sentinel and commando sides. This is common knowledge to this community, I know. I'm just trying to think where the line should be drawn. HP Pool: Current Sentinel> Commando> Assault> Logi> Scout Each Logi gains about 60hp total Shield regen amount: Current Scout> Assault> Logi> Commando> Sentinel - Cal is outlier. Disparity was too great. A greater value than the Assaults is in order because of Lower HP Amount is now between Assault and Scout. Shield delays: Scout> Logi> Assault> Commando> Sentinel - Cal is outlier. Maintained but closer to scout than Assault. Stamina pool and rate are: Scout> Assault> Logi> Commando> Sentinel Previously decided to have larger Stamina pools between that of an assault and scout (we do just lug crap everywhere) and lesser recovery rate than an assault. Stamina Pool is between Scout and Assault now: Scout> Logi> Assault> Commando> Sentinel Stamina Recovery Rate: Scout> Assault> Logi> Commando> Sentinel Armor regen should be better for a logi due to the nature of the class, but this doesn't follow HP pool rules with all classes. That would mean that sentinels would have the highest repair rate and scouts the lowest, but it turns out that commandos and Logis were on par with repair rates and sentinels were just above scouts. Bizarre So, Armor repair rates are now the best between all the classes. Scanning profiles kept the same. Scanning precision up ( technically down): Able to detect the micro deformities in the ships they work on per lore :) = High F-ing Precision. Scan Radius Increased to Allow the Logi to be the master of Ewar Scanning. Movement Speed faster walk, slower sprint. I like the changes, but just curious about the ewar change why better than the scout? Their role is supposed to be recon, even though they play fast assault more. I don't mind being able to see more and further just kind of stomping on some toes, I think. All the rest are solid and needed. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7090	Posted - 2015.03.01 06:07:00 - [1443] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Scanning precision up (down): Able to detect the micro deformities in the ships they work on = High F-ing Precision. Scan Radius Increased to Allow the Logi to be the master of Ewar Scanning. o/ RedBleach If the Logis feel that they need to be the masters of both EQ and EWAR to be competitive, this is OK by me. So long as it is balanced. We are very near this goal as is, with the GalLogi having already replaced the role of the Recon Scout. I would ask only that (1) we take measures to correct existing EWAR Role Bleed and (2) that we hold the EWAR Logi accountable to the same standards we held the infamous "360 wallhack" EWAR Scout. By existing EWAR Role Bleed, I am referring to the GA/AM Scout's bonus to Scan Precision and the CA Scout's bonus to Scan Range. The recon capabilities of these "recon" units are vastly inferior to the GalLogi's scans; their roles are no longer clearly defined. I am excited at the prospect of seeing their bonuses replaced with something meaningful and competitive. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7090	Posted - 2015.03.01 06:51:00 - [1444] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: I like the changes, but just curious about the ewar change why better than the scout? Their role is supposed to be recon, even though they play fast assault more. I don't mind being able to see more and further just kind of stomping on some toes, I think. Perhaps the Scout's role was once recon, but this is certainly not the case today. Recon post-falloff is all about Active Scanners, and competitive recon is all about the GalLogi (and only the GalLogi). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 163	Posted - 2015.03.01 06:58:00 - [1445] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Perhaps the Scout's role was once recon, but this is certainly not the case today. You are quite right, scouts decided that they needed to be fast assaults and have become more aggressive and In your face. According to you this was decided and vetted in the Barber Shop. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7091	Posted - 2015.03.01 07:06:00 - [1446] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Perhaps the Scout's role was once recon, but this is certainly not the case today. You are quite right, scouts decided that they needed to be fast assaults and have become more aggressive and In your face. According to you this was decided and vetted in the Barber Shop. Actually, killing the Recon Scout was Zatara's idea; we protested that one pretty vigorously. Cloakblind, Decloak Delay, Armor/Strafe Penalty -- these were the nerf ideas the Barbershop came up with. If everyone wants the Scouts' role to be recon, we could give Scout(s) the bonus to Active Scans and finding a something else for the GalLogi to do. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 491	Posted - 2015.03.01 10:23:00 - [1447] - Quote Maybe we should put the scout discussion somewhere else, but I think right now, the scouts are not recon, but infiltration units. For that I've proposed a special EQ for them: Stealth Uplinks, they'd have 5 spawns and would be undetectable by any scanner, and they'd have super fast spawn times. These would allow a full squad spawn in, that would obviously consist of one or two logis plus several slayers to take an objective. Good E-war on logis makes sense because they are so squishy. They should be able to see the scout flanking in their back first, to give them any chance to evade or react. For scout recon, I'd like to see SR visual scans (line of sight) being shared with squad or team... this would give snipers a role apart from being an annoying bunch of campers, maybe just a skill for scout suits...
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7095	Posted - 2015.03.01 14:19:00 - [1448] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: 1. Maybe we should put the scout discussion somewhere else, but I think right now, the scouts are not recon, but infiltration units. 2. For that I've proposed a special EQ for them: Stealth Uplinks, they'd have 5 spawns and would be undetectable by any scanner, and they'd have super fast spawn times. These would allow a full squad spawn in, that would obviously consist of one or two logis plus several slayers to take an objective. 3. Good E-war on logis makes sense because they are so squishy. They should be able to see the scout flanking in their back first, to give them any chance to evade or react. 4. For scout recon, I'd like to see SR visual scans (line of sight) being shared with squad or team... this would give snipers a role apart from being an annoying bunch of campers, maybe just a skill for scout suits... 1. "STD Logis need +1 EQ slot b/c Role Bleed by STD Scout" is no different from "Recon Scouts need new roles on b/c of Role Bleed by GalLogi". So long as EWAR overlap remains at issue between the two classes, we've little choice but to discuss the classes jointly when it comes to EWAR. Further, any discussion involving EWAR changes should take into account effects on and perspectives of all EWAR-oriented classes. 2. I like this. 3. The problem with passive scans is that they're potentially shared six ways. An EWAR Logi might be squishy, but the Heavy he's repping isn't squishy, nor is the blob which surrounds him. All potentially benefit from his passive scans. AM and CA Scouts suited for Recon were even squishier than Logis (like 300HP squishy); the only function they provided were strong scans, and their strong scans were ruled to be imbalanced (even after cloakblind!). The "squishy" factor was ruled to be an insufficient counter-balance. 4. I like this as well. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7097	Posted - 2015.03.01 16:51:00 - [1449] - Quote From Barbershop: Adipem Nothi wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Idea: EWAR Untangled - Scouts as Scouts & Logis as Support * Remove Scan Range, Scan Precision bonuses from CA and AM Scouts. * Buff Scan Precision and/or Range of all Logis. * Remove and replace bonus to Active Scans from GA Logi. * Racially rebrand Active Scanners (AM Scanners squad-wide, CA Scanners team-wide). * AM Scout receives Precision and/or Duration bonus to AM Scanners. * CA Scout receives Cooldown and/or Range bonus to CA Scanners. * Tune Passive and Active Scans where needed to adjust for any imbalance. Thoughts? We can't afford to make big, sweeping changes that take many months to fine tune at this stage in the game's life. Unless there is a major problem to address and a straightforward end goal - as was the case with sidearm rebalancing - there's no need to make such humongous changes to game balance as this. I see no reason to throw everything up in the air and mess with roles that have existed for years when most suits are just a few integer tweaks away from being balanced. Integer tweaks alone aren't going to fix the Role Bleed in the Recon Department. But I see your point; too many moving parts. Will try again ... Idea: EWAR Untangled, V2.0 (now with Integer Tweaks!) * Reduce cloak-blind from 85% to 45% * CA Scout - Change bonus to Scan Precision + Range * AM Scout - Change bonus to Biotics Efficacy * GA Logi - Change bonus to Scan Duration + Cooldown * 20 dB Active Scanners - Change to 18 dB * 28 dB Active Scanners - Change to 25 dB * 36 dB Active Scanners - Change to 33 dB * 46 dB Active Scanners - Change to 40 dB EWAR Untangled, V2.1 (to follow) If GalLogi remains only competitive recon unit, reduce cloak-blind from 45% to 0% If CalScout becomes the only competitive recon unit, increase cloak-blind from 45% to 65% If GalLogi and CalScout appear to be "sharing" the role of recon, then make no change Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 5132	Posted - 2015.03.01 17:39:00 - [1450] - Quote Huh. So, figured I'd stop in after a month or so, aaaand... Yeah, nothing different. No blue tag, no meaningful improvements, and El Operator is still putting his hands in his ears yelling "nyah nyah I can't hear you" every time a scout posts something. sigh See you in another couple months I guess... (The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7101	Posted - 2015.03.01 17:40:00 - [1451] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: See you in another couple months I guess... Hi, John! I'd wondered where you went; good to see you're still with us. o7 Pokey recently weighed in here so it must be on the radar, right? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 5132	Posted - 2015.03.01 17:47:00 - [1452] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: See you in another couple months I guess... Hi, John! I'd wondered where you went. I'll bet it is on the radar; Pokey popped in, so it has to be. Indeed. Well, be sure to let me know when that happens. Every once in a while I get the urge to play Dust again. It quickly passes. (The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7102	Posted - 2015.03.01 17:53:00 - [1453] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Well, be sure to let me know when that happens. I'll mail you in-game should anything develop. I look forward to hearing your 2 cents on all of this. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1554	Posted - 2015.03.01 19:07:00 - [1454] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: 1. Maybe we should put the scout discussion somewhere else, but I think right now, the scouts are not recon, but infiltration units. 2. For that I've proposed a special EQ for them: Stealth Uplinks, they'd have 5 spawns and would be undetectable by any scanner, and they'd have super fast spawn times. These would allow a full squad spawn in, that would obviously consist of one or two logis plus several slayers to take an objective. 3. Good E-war on logis makes sense because they are so squishy. They should be able to see the scout flanking in their back first, to give them any chance to evade or react. 4. For scout recon, I'd like to see SR visual scans (line of sight) being shared with squad or team... this would give snipers a role apart from being an annoying bunch of campers, maybe just a skill for scout suits... 1. "STD Logis need +1 EQ slot b/c Role Bleed potential by STD Scout" is no more or less pertinent than "Recon Scouts need new roles b/c of Role Bleed by GalLogi". So long as EWAR overlap remains at issue between the two classes, we've little choice but to discuss the classes jointly when it comes to EWAR. Further, any discussion involving EWAR changes should take into account effects on and perspectives of all EWAR-oriented classes. 2. I like this. 3. The problem with passive scans is that they're potentially shared six ways. An EWAR Logi might be squishy, but the Heavy he's repping isn't squishy, nor is the blob which surrounds him. All potentially benefit from his passive scans. AM and CA Scouts suited for Recon were significantly squishier than Logis (like 300HP squishy) yet their strong scans were ruled to be imbalanced, even after cloakblind! The "squishiness" factor proved to be an insufficient counter-balance and their scans were ruled to be "OP Wallhacks" ... and this was for units whose only competitive function was to provide zero-WP scans. Imagine the tears had those scans come from a tankier, multi-function and WP-saturated EWAR Logi. 4. I like this as well. Idea: EWAR Untangled - Scouts as Scouts & Logis as Support * Remove Scan Range, Scan Precision bonuses from CA and AM Scouts. * Buff Scan Precision and/or Range of all Logis. * Remove and replace bonus to Active Scans from GA Logi. * Racially rebrand Active Scanners (AM Scanners squad-wide, CA Scanners team-wide). * AM Scout receives Precision and/or Duration bonus to AM Scanners. * CA Scout receives Cooldown and/or Range bonus to CA Scanners. * Tune Passive and Active Scans where needed to adjust for any imbalance. No. Scouts got low BW because they're only supposed to be good with 1 equipment,cloaks. Scouts are infiltrators. Providing scans is support. Stop trying to get GalLogis nerfed because they are the hard counter to scouts. Scouts were considered OP because passives run 100% of the time where actives run once every 30 seconds. Scouts had high speed,2 weapons,100% scans 100% of the time,were invisible,and have crazy high stamina,they deserved their nerf. You keep complaining about the "blob",logistics was designed to need a "blob". Safety in numbers and all that. A good "blob" protects their logistics. Logistics contribute non-combatitively (logistically aka support) with reps,ammo,and for those with bad eWAR,active scans. All of that is logistical work. A smart logistics sticks with the "blob". You're not actually complaining that eWAR for scanners is OP,you're complaining logistics aren't more stupid so that they'd wonder off by themselves. Now go away before i report you for trolling. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 867	Posted - 2015.03.01 20:53:00 - [1455] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Huh. So, figured I'd stop in after a month or so, aaaand... Yeah, nothing different. No blue tag, no meaningful new input from CCP but a ton of new irrelevant trash from Apidem, and El Operator is still making way too much sense to be ignored saying "I understand what you're saying, do not agree, this is why and you should take those ideas elsewhere since while perhaps worthy of discussion (to some) this thread isn't the place" every time a scout suffering from buyers remorse for trying to not be balanced by simple adjusment but instead by a multitude of minor effects whose realized they should have just considered and consented to the former posts something. sigh See you in another couple months I guess... Oh Hi John, how's that koolaidgut treating you? Is "Popular Opinion" not as nourishing as the malnourished masses claimed it would be? Sucks bro, tried to warn you but wtf do I know, I'm "just some troll". GL and HF out there Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 867	Posted - 2015.03.01 20:58:00 - [1456] - Quote Meee One wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Oh dear, I'm sorry I stumbled on your private thread and started ruining your discussion by talking about balance. I suppose it would be best to never interact with the logistics community then, as you are clearly the only one capable of understanding the deep, intricate balance problems at the heart of Dust. I guess the idea that logistics should be buffed is a terrible one when it's coming from somebody who doesn't play logi 24/7. Balance is not a one way road. It's not some thread where you try to whisper into the ears of the CPM and shun anybody who isn't part of your sekret klub. It affects everyone, so I suggest you get used to the idea of criticizing an argument based on its merits, instead of shooting it down because you don't like who's saying it. >The barber shop. Hypocrite. Nothing but net from the halfcourt line. Swiiissh! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 867	Posted - 2015.03.01 22:05:00 - [1457] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: A)Nah, the last thing we need is another overhaul. We're very close to balance as is, no need for radical changes which could take months and many iterations to fix. B) I'm dubious as to whether or not logis actually need to be looked at much, but I don't play logi too much so I guess I'm willing to take the word of more experienced players. C) If I were to make changes it would be to a) reduce the cost of equipment across the board D) and b) tiericide logi dropsuit equipment slots so STD suits could fit as much equipment as PRO suits can. Does that sound reasonable? A- We (The actual Logis and Support players) aren't calling for a full overhaul either, just some minor and long-overdue survivability buffs and possibly a rework of our bonusing structure across our class. "Overhauling" that would take months to vett and fix is being proposed by SCOUTS trying to refold their already completed months-long balancing overhaul and undo it. B- We, the actual Logi and Support players, do . And we've been trying to iron the details out on it for months. The process is slow and just made slower when it's constantly innundated with irrelevant to the discussion input from individual players whose input has already been proven multiple times over as being focused on other objectives or from individuals who "don't actually play [the role]". I don't understand you having no respect for your own word and "take the word of more experienced players" on this topic and, seriously, just staying out of it. C- So, no opinion except equipment should be cheaper. Not going to disagree but also not going to pretend that is a Logi buff when it's a buff to anyone that uses equipment making total suitcosts cheaper. Scout suggests something they benefit by while refusing suggestions other frames will benefit by. I'm so suprised by this that....I'm lying, I'm not suprised. This has been the norm for scouts in this thread. D- AND last but not least this. Since you guys (BShop scouts) have yet to propose anything that isn't a buff to yourselves this one-áI have trouble seeing this any differently. If Logis have their full equipment carryload available at STD then basis is there to allow Scouts their full equipment carryload at STD too, the merit of which (scouts being 1 equip until PRO where they'll be 2) has been broached as a balancing idea elsewhere. I'm inclined to argue for removal of that second equipment slot from scouts altogether and its reassignment elsewhere (Mandos?) again, since you assholes won't stfu in here and have made it clear that you no longer are playing in support capacities, and don't want to. points to current scout overhaul proposal in the BS hop trying to cement scouts as undetectable under all conditions assassins Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 867	Posted - 2015.03.01 22:25:00 - [1458] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: [Hurr durr, I'm a scout but have no idea why I'm in here except to say Notice me! and...] ...I don't play logi too much... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 867	Posted - 2015.03.01 22:34:00 - [1459] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Meee One wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Oh dear, I'm sorry I stumbled on your private thread and started ruining your discussion by talking about balance. I suppose it would be best to never interact with the logistics community then, as you are clearly the only one capable of understanding the deep, intricate balance problems at the heart of Dust. I guess the idea that logistics should be buffed is a terrible one when it's coming from somebody who doesn't play logi 24/7. Balance is not a one way road. It's not some thread where you try to whisper into the ears of the CPM and shun anybody who isn't part of your sekret klub. It affects everyone, so I suggest you get used to the idea of criticizing an argument based on its merits, instead of shooting it down because you don't like who's saying it. >The barber shop. Hypocrite. What of it? The Barbershop has a couple crazies like any sub-community, but it also has an excellent track record for generating and vetting solid, well-balanced ideas. Those who think the thread is about "Scout Superiority" aren't paying close enough attention; the majority of Scout nerfs implemented between 1.8 and present originated in the Barbershop. What he said. We get plenty of visitors and don't vie for any kind of special developer attention. Hell, even our corp is accepting open applications. You're welcome to stop by anytime you like to discuss or shoot the shit with us. That's about as open as it gets. At the end of the day, this is a community for a video game. We're all here to have fun and socialize. There's no reason to act all exclusionary and hostile over something as harmless as that. And at the end of the day this thread is NOT a GD-moved-to-the-LR thread for peenstroking and bs'ing, this thread is for CPM input on Logistics and Support play. The playground and all things acceptable in it is found elsewhere Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 763	Posted - 2015.03.02 00:33:00 - [1460] - Quote Adipem Nothi and Mr. Goo Yeah the whole scan thing I'm still mulling over. Gears are grinding and I'm not completely set on any one thing, and balancing it all will take some time. Thanks for the support all The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 01:44:00 - [1461] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Adipem Nothi and Mr. Goo Yeah the whole scan thing I'm still mulling over. Gears are grinding and I'm not completely set on any one thing, and balancing it all will take some time. STILL working on the rest of what I see as a more current proposal. Playing with numbers, ideas and definition. Thanks for the support all Don't forget to play the game too. Data analytics is fun and all but its really all about the game. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 1942	Posted - 2015.03.02 03:01:00 - [1462] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: And at the end of the day this thread is NOT a GD-moved-to-the-LR thread for peenstroking and bs'ing, this thread is for CPM input on Logistics and Support play. The playground and all things acceptable in it is found elsewhere Which is funny, because all I've seen from Adipem is attempts at suggestions and discussion, and all I've seen from you is off-topic, paranoid, jingoistic tinfoil hattery. If you really wanted discussion, you would discuss. Which brings us to... el OPERATOR wrote: D- AND last but not least this. Since you guys (BShop scouts) have yet to propose anything that isn't a buff to yourselves this one-áI have trouble seeing any differently. If Logis have their full equipment carryload available at STD then basis is there to allow Scouts their full equipment carryload at STD too, the merit of which (scouts being 1 equip until PRO where they'll be 2) has been broached as a balancing idea elsewhere. I'm inclined to argue for removal of that second equipment slot from scouts altogether and its reassignment elsewhere (Mandos?) again, since you buncha potsies won't stfu in here and have made it clear that you no longer are playing in support capacities, and don't want to. points to current scout overhaul proposal in the BS hop trying to cement scouts as undetectable under all conditions assassins There is so little discussion here. Do you not actually want your suits to be good at STD? Do you not want to make more money? Because I'm getting mixed signals. I cannot even imagine the level of paranoia required to convince yourself that a person suggesting buffs to your preferred role is secretly trying to buff themselves, but I'll humor you for a moment. Note that this is more wasted time discussing things other than actual balance because you can't handle people you don't care for trying to talk to you. I don't give a single solitary fuck how much ISK I make. If I did, I wouldn't run squishy nova knife fits or melee fits or plasma cannon fits, I would spam ambush or domination in some tryhard corp with an Ak.0 and scrambler rifle. But I don't, because I don't care about ISK. What I do care about is getting this game balanced. If me quitting the game permanently were to guarantee that Dust would become perfectly balanced I would do it right now, on the spot. I don't give a damn how bad the minmatar scout is, I will run it anyway, as I have since Uprising, when it was terrible. I am not lobbying for any favors. All I want is this game to be as balanced as possible, as fast as possible, so that the development team can move on to more important things. And the biggest obstacle I see to the discussion of balance in this thread is you. Finally - and I should not have to actually tell you this - Adipem doesn't represent the views of all scouts, the barbershop, or anyone but himself. Nobody does. In fact, if you look closely, I have actively disagreed with every suggestion he has recently posted in this thread. I have also disagreed based on the merits of his proposals, and not, as you have done, on the basis of character or some other fearful nonsense. You talk so much about wanting to get back to discussion, so why don't you try discussing? Drop the cowardly fallacious rhetoric and address the proposals like an adult. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 03:42:00 - [1463] - Quote Psuedogenesis wrote: More psuedo input. Don't lecture me, kid, trying to bait and make what I've said seem obtuse OR twist this discussion into being about me. Your bud Apidem has been in and out of here already running the same obfuscation when his "suggestions" are shown to clearly be self-serving. If I'm questioning the content and timing of what you've contributed it's because the content and timing is justifiably questionable . Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 1947	Posted - 2015.03.02 04:11:00 - [1464] - Quote Alright, I've gone ahead and hidden el operator's posts for now, since he doesn't seem interested in talking about logistics at all. Sorry for being melodramatic, I just want to actually talk about logis. So I've actually played a fair bit of logi (mostly during the days of chromosome) and I've been playing them a lot more recently but I'm still pretty foggy on what the actual balance issues are currently. Since they aren't combat suits their effectiveness has to be evaluated completely differently from how you would most other suits. I want to try and figure out exactly the issues are but I don't have time to read through all 72 pages of this thread so, again, sorry if you've heard all of this before. - A properly fitted logistics suit costs way more than a properly fitted combat suit - Logistics suits curve out poorly from STD to PRO because of the number of equipment slots - Logi bonuses are lackluster and too focused on individual equipment - Most support equipment has been nerfed without compensation to the logi suits themselves - Logistics is harder to get into than other roles because of the sheer SP investment required - Nanite injectors are much less useful than they used to be What am I missing? For perspective, the logi stuff I have access to and use is an ADV minlogi with proto repper, advanced nanohive, advanced drop uplinks, and advanced nanite injector. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5113	Posted - 2015.03.02 04:35:00 - [1465] - Quote Logistics may not be a direct combat suit, but a dead Logi is a useless Logi, so at the very least you need to consider their surviveability on the same sort of scale as the other suits. You want to discourage direct combat, but not make them so squishy that grazing blows tear them apart. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 1947	Posted - 2015.03.02 04:57:00 - [1466] - Quote This is true. I neglected to mention suit stats themselves because I don't think I'm qualified to comment on them. Logis in my experience have been squishy, but I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. Their low eHP needs to be a balance factor when you're talking about the logi-heavy combo, but I don't think it needs to be as low as it is currently. They could probably use an increase to base eHP. What do you think about the suggestion that logis get increased stamina and speed in place of HP? Or maybe alongside a minor HP buff. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5113	Posted - 2015.03.02 05:34:00 - [1467] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: This is true. I neglected to mention suit stats themselves because I don't think I'm qualified to comment on them. Logis in my experience have been squishy, but I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. Their low eHP needs to be a balance factor when you're talking about the logi-heavy combo, but I don't think it needs to be as low as it is currently. They could probably use an increase to base eHP. What do you think about the suggestion that logis get increased stamina and speed in place of HP? Or maybe alongside a minor HP buff. I commented on this before, but I think an increase in stamina and HP (but not to exceed the Assault) is in line. I don't think they need more movement speed, just more stamina to give more mobility without increasing direct combat effectiveness like movement speed would. I'd also like the slot progression of the Logistics to be looked at....Prototype isn't too bad aside from some tweaks, but STD and ADV tiers are all kinds of messed up. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 1949	Posted - 2015.03.02 05:53:00 - [1468] - Quote Yeah, that seems like one of the easiest and most effective fixes. I still think all dropsuits' slots should be tiericided altogether but that's neither here nor there. One of the things I'd like to see for logistics is a more continuous reward for repping instead of the discrete system we have now. What I mean by that is instead of awarding 25 WP for every 150 armor (or however much) repped, award 5 WP for every 30, so it ends up being the same amount awarded. At least then there's more incentive to rep the smaller and more shield based frames. It's just kind of stupid when you rep some shield suit for like half of their armor and still don't get any WP out of it. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5113	Posted - 2015.03.02 06:18:00 - [1469] - Quote So make the reward system more granular? I can get behind that as long as it doesn't cause performance issues. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 165	Posted - 2015.03.02 06:19:00 - [1470] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: Alright, I've gone ahead and hidden el operator's posts for now, since he doesn't seem interested in talking about logistics at all. Sorry for being melodramatic, I just want to actually talk about logis. So I've actually played a fair bit of logi (mostly during the days of chromosome) and I've been playing them a lot more recently but I'm still pretty foggy on what the actual balance issues are currently. Since they aren't combat suits their effectiveness has to be evaluated completely differently from how you would most other suits. I want to try and figure out exactly the issues are but I don't have time to read through all 72 pages of this thread so, again, sorry if you've heard all of this before. - A properly fitted logistics suit costs way more than a properly fitted combat suit - Logistics suits curve out poorly from STD to PRO because of the number of equipment slots - Logi bonuses are lackluster and too focused on individual equipment - Most support equipment has been nerfed without compensation to the logi suits themselves - Logistics is harder to get into than other roles because of the sheer SP investment required - Nanite injectors are much less useful than they used to be What am I missing? For perspective, the logi stuff I have access to and use is an ADV minlogi with proto repper, advanced nanohive, advanced drop uplinks, and advanced nanite injector. If your going to honestly try to give input you need to at least look at the spreadsheet proposals Cross has linked to on page one and you also need to look at the most current proposal that RedBleach has done. If your not going to waste our time and yours this will give you a good idea of where things stand now. Of course we don't have any blue tags to give us an idea of what they are thinking. Not meaning to be harsh, but if you don't look at whats all ready been done your wasting a lot of time rehashing what has been talked about. I welcome your input as long as it stays in balancing the Logi class and I do mean balance not creating another problem that takes months to fix. I think Cross's and RedBleach's proposals are real close to what is needed. Im not sure that I agree with RedBleach's current Ewar metrics for the Logi, IMHO they take too much from the scouts. But everything else is in a good place. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.

Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 165	Posted - 2015.03.02 06:29:00 - [1471] - Quote If you start on about page 70 you can see a link to RedBleach's proposal and see some of the discussion on the repair tool. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 1949	Posted - 2015.03.02 07:12:00 - [1472] - Quote Will do. I had assumed the OP was out of date but this looks good. Re: Nanite injectors, has there been any thought given to making them like the BF3 revive system? As in player hits you with the revive tool and then you've given the option to respawn? At least then you don't have to rely on people asking for pickups to use your injector. I know Rattati's got a soft spot for the battlefield series too. Pokey Dravon wrote: So make the reward system more granular? I can get behind that as long as it doesn't cause performance issues. Yeah, exactly. I hadn't given thought to the possibility of performance issues but it doesn't seem to be a problem, since they introduced the point defense bonus and reintroduced the squad bonus there don't seem to have been any issues. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Bayeth Mal Nos Nothi 2431	Posted - 2015.03.02 11:31:00 - [1473] - Quote I know it may have already come up, but for the last few months, what little I've been playing is logi, and one thing I could get behind is increasing the equipment slots for STD and ADV. (Note I mean Equipment, not Mod slots). Obviously alter PG/CPU a little, though my Advanced logi wouldn't need much more. Though other than that I've been finding my logi to be pretty darn good. That's just a suggestion for a buff for the below proto suits, I'm not going to get into a discussion on the proto suits as I only run logi for the extra ISK and thusly don't run proto. We'll bang, OK?
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 165	Posted - 2015.03.02 14:01:00 - [1474] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: Will do. I had assumed the OP was out of date but this looks good. Re: Nanite injectors, has there been any thought given to making them like the BF3 revive system? As in player hits you with the revive tool and then you've given the option to respawn? At least then you don't have to rely on people asking for pickups to use your injector. I know Rattati's got a soft spot for the battlefield series too. It has been discussed, most of us like it, it wasn't us that asked for the X-if you want picked up. We all wanted what you suggested, it just makes more sense. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 165	Posted - 2015.03.02 14:04:00 - [1475] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: I know it may have already come up, but for the last few months, what little I've been playing is logi, and one thing I could get behind is increasing the equipment slots for STD and ADV. (Note I mean Equipment, not Mod slots). Obviously alter PG/CPU a little, though my Advanced logi wouldn't need much more. Though other than that I've been finding my logi to be pretty darn good. That's just a suggestion for a buff for the below proto suits, I'm not going to get into a discussion on the proto suits as I only run logi for the extra ISK and thusly don't run proto. Again take the time to review what is proposed. Cross's spreadsheet proposal is on page 1 And RedBleach's spreadsheet proposal can be found on page 70 and if you read there is some discussion of repair tools mechanics and slot layout. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 261	Posted - 2015.03.02 16:04:00 - [1476] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: There's no reason to act all exclusionary and hostile over something as harmless as that. I entirely agree. Hostility is unnecessary and irrelevant. However, calling a spade a spade is useful. Pointing out some of the severe flaws in some of the arguments presented is constructive. Noting shabby rhetorical tactics from people who don't really seem to have much interest in fixing Logis is useful. There is nothing exclusionary about asking people contributing to this thread to keep signal/noise ratio relatively noise free, if it seems like what they're really here to do is recruit for their corporation or argue for scout/assault buffs. It is focused, not exclusionary, to ask that conversation to happen elsewhere. I'd welcome constructive criticism towards any of the ideas for buffing Logis in thread. Less-than-constructive criticism that's really just advocacy for buffing scouts, is going to get pointed out for the BS it is. Its a testament to the politeness of most of the sort of people who run logis that you've seen more, "Please take that elsewhere" than "GTFO" responses to some ridiculously shabby arguments. Do you agree that logi survivability needs a buff? If so, I'd like to read something constructive about what form it should take. If not, I'd like to read a reasonable argument why not. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 261	Posted - 2015.03.02 16:21:00 - [1477] - Quote When thinking about the survivability and expense of running a logi, I just realized something that I haven't noticed being explicitly stated in this thread. There are matches where I go isk positive, but they tend to be poor matches, i.e. stomps. If my team stomps, I hardly die, I hardly rep, but I still typically make isk. If my team gets stomped, its usually pretty apparent pretty early on that this will be a good match to use a weak and free (as an ongoing expense) apex logi suit. Still, isk positive. Good fights though, the matches that keep me playing Dust, are almost always horrific isk losses. Really good fights where who won sometimes isn't even apparent until the vicotry/defeat screen shows up, those can easily cost more than a million isk loss, even if I got an awesome payout. A big part of the why logis NEED a buff of some kind is because I almost never have a match that doesn't suffer from either poor match making or outrageous expense. The precise matches where it matter most to run good gear, shouldn't be a nearly guaranteed large isk loss. To a lesser extent, everybody suffers from the same problem. Its particularly nasty for vehicle pilots and logis. Its particularly frustrating to have a months-long thread about it, when some portion of the fixes aren't development resource intensive. Coding a better revive system; I understand how that could take a long time. Fixing the stats and costs of logi suits; why in the world would that take as long as it has? That delay doesn't indicate a lack of development resources. That indicates that CCP thinks there are enough people running logis, and bearing the costs of running logis, so that they just aren't a priority for getting fixed. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7123	Posted - 2015.03.02 16:52:00 - [1478] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: A big part of the why logis NEED a buff of some kind is because I almost never have a match that doesn't suffer from either poor match making or outrageous expense. The precise matches where it matter most to run good gear, shouldn't be a nearly guaranteed large isk loss. To a lesser extent, everybody suffers from the same problem. Its particularly nasty for vehicle pilots and logis. Better matchmaking could affect today's "proto standard" for the reasons you've outlined above. In a close and hard-fought match, deaths are frequent and the majority of those who field proto gear tend to lose Isk. Today, good fights are unfortunately the exception. Should they become the norm, the wallets of those who always field proto gear will take a big it. Further, there will no longer be 3 stomps per good fight, so there will be less opportunity to recover Isk losses. The "proto standard" may not change immediately, but as Isk losses mount, they could with time. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 19:29:00 - [1479] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: I want to try and figure out exactly the issues are but I don't have time to read through all 72 pages of this thread so, again What am I missing? For perspective, the logi stuff I have access to and use is an ADV minlogi with proto repper, advanced nanohive, advanced drop uplinks, and advanced nanite injector. Actual current experience in the frames at all levels, usage of all the equipments with all the frames at all levels as well as usage in all of the available gamemodes at all levels (pubs, FW and PC) at least As well as a prioritized position of playing as a Logi most often as opposed to some other role with a Logisuit on-hand for reward supplementation. Since, y'know, you're claiming qualified and worthwhile input suggestion generation for the entire role and class. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 19:33:00 - [1480] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Alright, I've gone ahead and hidden el operator's posts for now, since he doesn't seem interested in talking about logistics at all. Sorry for being melodramatic, I just want to actually talk about logis. So I've actually played a fair bit of logi (mostly during the days of chromosome) and I've been playing them a lot more recently but I'm still pretty foggy on what the actual balance issues are currently. Since they aren't combat suits their effectiveness has to be evaluated completely differently from how you would most other suits. I want to try and figure out exactly the issues are but I don't have time to read through all 72 pages of this thread so, again, sorry if you've heard all of this before. - A properly fitted logistics suit costs way more than a properly fitted combat suit - Logistics suits curve out poorly from STD to PRO because of the number of equipment slots - Logi bonuses are lackluster and too focused on individual equipment - Most support equipment has been nerfed without compensation to the logi suits themselves - Logistics is harder to get into than other roles because of the sheer SP investment required - Nanite injectors are much less useful than they used to be What am I missing? For perspective, the logi stuff I have access to and use is an ADV minlogi with proto repper, advanced nanohive, advanced drop uplinks, and advanced nanite injector. If your going to honestly try to give input you need to at least look at the spreadsheet proposals Cross has linked to on page one and you also need to look at the most current proposal that RedBleach has done. If your not going to waste our time and yours this will give you a good idea of where things stand now. Of course we don't have any blue tags to give us an idea of what they are thinking. Not meaning to be harsh, but if you don't look at whats all ready been done your wasting a lot of time rehashing what has been talked about. I welcome your input as long as it stays in balancing the Logi class and I do mean balance not creating another problem that takes months to fix. I think Cross's and RedBleach's proposals are real close to what is needed. Im not sure that I agree with RedBleach's current Ewar metrics for the Logi, IMHO they take too much from the scouts. But everything else is in a good place. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Gets It^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^° Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 19:49:00 - [1481] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: I know it may have already come up, but for the last few months, what little I've been playing is logi, and one thing I could get behind is increasing the equipment slots for STD and ADV. (Note I mean Equipment, not Mod slots). Obviously alter PG/CPU a little, though my Advanced logi wouldn't need much more. Though other than that I've been finding my logi to be pretty darn good. That's just a suggestion for a buff for the below proto suits, I'm not going to get into a discussion on the proto suits as I only run logi for the extra ISK and thusly don't run proto. The reasoning you're using for wanting the full pro equipment slot layout available at std is the exact reason it shouldn't be : "You only run Logi for the extra isk" This will sound rude on the surface but it's not a fabrication to descibe your use of the frame as "whoring" which is behaviour we do not want to enable or entrench in any update on these suits' stats since it has been overwhelmingly proven and agreed that a big part of the problem with the Logi class is its abuse by "WPWhores", those individuals solely focused on their own WP take and not focused on their squad/team's force multiplication. There is NOTHING wrong with the STD frame having fewer eq slots than the PRO especially for new or training logis whose ISK/SP investments are still being made as they still learn the role, the equipment and the various usages relative to the circumstances. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 19:57:00 - [1482] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Will do. I had assumed the OP was out of date but this looks good. Re: Nanite injectors, has there been any thought given to making them like the BF3 revive system? As in player hits you with the revive tool and then you've given the option to respawn? At least then you don't have to rely on people asking for pickups to use your injector. I know Rattati's got a soft spot for the battlefield series too. It has been discussed, most of us like it, it wasn't us that asked for the X-if you want picked up. We all wanted what you suggested, it just makes more sense. Was a bit of a flashpoint forum/feedback-wise when it happened, LogiWPWhores basically burnt out the public with bad (still under fire) and dirty-needle/dirty-repper (low repair so as to "milk" the max poss WP) pickups. Public Opinion is that the existing mechanic works best for the other roles . Water under the bridge, train that has already left the station, ship that has already sailed...sort of thing that anyone who's actually been engaged in Logi use for more than a whim is familiar with. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:08:00 - [1483] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: A big part of the why logis NEED a buff of some kind is because I almost never have a match that doesn't suffer from either poor match making or outrageous expense. The precise matches where it matter most to run good gear, shouldn't be a nearly guaranteed large isk loss. To a lesser extent, everybody suffers from the same problem. Its particularly nasty for vehicle pilots and logis. Better matchmaking could affect today's "proto standard" for the reasons you've outlined above. In a close and hard-fought match, deaths are frequent and the majority of those who field proto gear tend to lose Isk. Today, good fights are unfortunately the exception. Should they become the norm, the wallets of those who always field proto gear will take a big it. There will no longer be 3 stomps per good fight, so there will be less opportunity to recover Isk losses. The "proto standard" may not change immediately, but as Isk losses mount, it could with time. This is a conversation of MatchMaking, NPE and Player Culture evolution which while completely worthwhile to have isn't going to be resolved with Logi buffs (except in a couple instances I've described previously) or in this thread. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:14:00 - [1484] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: That delay doesn't indicate a lack of development resources. That indicates that CCP thinks there are enough people running logis, and bearing the costs of running logis, so that they just aren't a priority for getting fixed. That sense that, whatever a blue tag might say (if one ever shows up in this thread), CCP's actions indicate that they really don't think this is much of a priority, may be why you'll see a less than welcoming response to scouts coming here trying to derail the thread. Exactly what I've been saying the last couple of days in here and have said repeatedly multiple times before in this thread when it happens: The process is long and time-consuming already so "input" from people who are not or do actually run the role is next-to-worthless except for the most cursory sort of insight. Especially if that cursory insight can be traced back to ulterior motive that has nothing to do with improving Logis. It's not flaming, it's due diligence. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:16:00 - [1485] - Quote hammers hammering Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:20:00 - [1486] - Quote saws sawing Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:21:00 - [1487] - Quote Presto, page 75 ready for use!! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7150	Posted - 2015.03.02 21:03:00 - [1488] - Quote Edit: Just realized whose post I was responding to. Oops and Redacted. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 21:38:00 - [1489] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: [Redacted] 10/10 would read again and hope for sequels. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 764	Posted - 2015.03.03 02:01:00 - [1490] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Adipem Nothi and Mr. Goo Yeah the whole scan thing I'm still mulling over. Gears are grinding and I'm not completely set on any one thing, and balancing it all will take some time. STILL working on the rest of what I see as a more current proposal. Playing with numbers, ideas and definition. Thanks for the support all Don't forget to play the game too. Data analytics is fun and all but its really all about the game. Yep, getting trashed. I've played inverted my entire life. But, recently played a game for a month where that wasn't an option, so now playing standard I' cant shoot for crap anymore... trying to figure out what to do to find my groove again. Maybe go through the Mass Effects and regain it. My KDR is just going to the toilet. I've been playing this for years so I have Thousands of deaths but I've seen it go from a 1.8 to a 1.4... maybe now a 1.2 and I don't consider myself decent at a shooter unless I can maintain a 1/1. Then again, the way this game plays and is not all about KDR my beliefs are being challenged... I just don't want to change. Oh, help me my empress The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 871	Posted - 2015.03.03 02:16:00 - [1491] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Adipem Nothi and Mr. Goo Yeah the whole scan thing I'm still mulling over. Gears are grinding and I'm not completely set on any one thing, and balancing it all will take some time. STILL working on the rest of what I see as a more current proposal. Playing with numbers, ideas and definition. Thanks for the support all Don't forget to play the game too. Data analytics is fun and all but its really all about the game. Yep, getting trashed. I've played inverted my entire life. But, recently played a game for a month where that wasn't an option, so now playing standard I' cant shoot for crap anymore... trying to figure out what to do to find my groove again. Maybe go through the Mass Effects and regain it. My KDR is just going to the toilet. I've been playing this for years so I have Thousands of deaths but I've seen it go from a 1.8 to a 1.4... maybe now a 1.2 and I don't consider myself decent at a shooter unless I can maintain a 1/1. Then again, the way this game plays and is not all about KDR my beliefs are being challenged... I just don't want to change. Oh, help me my empress Its, a hard-knock life! For! Us!!! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1555	Posted - 2015.03.03 03:13:00 - [1492] - Quote The main problem with costs of equipment is that there's such a huge gap in tier performance. BDR-8:75 on a single target Six Kin:88 on two targets. Thats 13x2 hp/s loss. On weapons the change in damage is maybe 1 point per tier. I think ADV should get 2 targets,with the Pro having higher reps. It would make ADV not feel as worthless by comparison. ------ I'd like any possible updates if available. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 175	Posted - 2015.03.03 15:40:00 - [1493] - Quote Meee One wrote: The main problem with costs of equipment is that there's such a huge gap in tier performance. BDR-8:75 on a single target Six Kin:88 on two targets. Thats 13x2 hp/s loss. On weapons the change in damage is maybe 1 point per tier. I think ADV should get 2 targets,with the Pro having higher reps. It would make ADV not feel as worthless by comparison. ------ I'd like any possible updates if available. you forgot the price comparison BDR-8= 8070 ISK Six Kin = 2163 ISK Thats why when I try to cut costs I use the Core Repair tool. 70 HPS 13215 ISK It is worth the extra 5000 ISK for the two streams. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1555	Posted - 2015.03.03 16:36:00 - [1494] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Meee One wrote: The main problem with costs of equipment is that there's such a huge gap in tier performance. BDR-8:75 on a single target Six Kin:88 on two targets. Thats 13x2 hp/s loss. On weapons the change in damage is maybe 1 point per tier. I think ADV should get 2 targets,with the Pro having higher reps. It would make ADV not feel as worthless by comparison. ------ I'd like any possible updates if available. you forgot the price comparison BDR-8= 8070 ISK Six Kin = 2163 ISK Thats why when I try to cut costs I use the Core Repair tool. 70 HPS 13215 ISK It is worth the extra 5000 ISK for the two streams. Which is why ADV needs 2 as well. No other class is forced into Pro gear for such dramatic performance increase. But i just thought of possible bonuses for the repair tool for the other races. Min-High rep amount (Current) Amarr- Armor Damage resistance Cal-Shield damage resistance Gal-increased weapons efficiency (slower heat build up,faster reload,lower kick,etc.) Since nanites run the world,why not have the individual logistics be able to focus them towards additional functions. With this it becomes more desired to have more logistics,rather than just Min. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 766	Posted - 2015.03.04 04:07:00 - [1495] - Quote Meee One wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Meee One wrote: The main problem with costs of equipment is that there's such a huge gap in tier performance. BDR-8:75 on a single target Six Kin:88 on two targets. Thats 13x2 hp/s loss. On weapons the change in damage is maybe 1 point per tier. I think ADV should get 2 targets,with the Pro having higher reps. It would make ADV not feel as worthless by comparison. ------ I'd like any possible updates if available. you forgot the price comparison BDR-8= 8070 ISK Six Kin = 2163 ISK Thats why when I try to cut costs I use the Core Repair tool. 70 HPS 13215 ISK It is worth the extra 5000 ISK for the two streams. Which is why ADV needs 2 as well. No other class is forced into Pro gear for such dramatic performance increase. But i just thought of possible bonuses for the repair tool for the other races. Min-High rep amount (Current) Amarr- Armor Damage resistance Cal-Shield damage resistance Gal-increased weapons efficiency (slower heat build up,faster reload,lower kick,etc.) Since nanites run the world,why not have the individual logistics be able to focus them towards additional functions. With this it becomes more desired to have more logistics,rather than just Min. Good Points All :) Particularly Tiering of equipment and the performance gaps is stupid huge, but careful how its phrased as a DEV may decide to nerf reps to make them more equal ... more to add to my logi list of things to do :) ADV 2 Streamers is a good idea. I like the ideas for the added effects of the streams, could be really awesome. I question the Gal from a lore standpoint of valuing life and all that stuff - a damage increase doesn't seem to fit them... if we are just spitballing ideas I wonder what else.... I could see Ammo resupply in there as well. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1559	Posted - 2015.03.04 08:03:00 - [1496] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Meee One wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Meee One wrote: The main problem with costs of equipment is that there's such a huge gap in tier performance. BDR-8:75 on a single target Six Kin:88 on two targets. Thats 13x2 hp/s loss. On weapons the change in damage is maybe 1 point per tier. I think ADV should get 2 targets,with the Pro having higher reps. It would make ADV not feel as worthless by comparison. ------ I'd like any possible updates if available. you forgot the price comparison BDR-8= 8070 ISK Six Kin = 2163 ISK Thats why when I try to cut costs I use the Core Repair tool. 70 HPS 13215 ISK It is worth the extra 5000 ISK for the two streams. Which is why ADV needs 2 as well. No other class is forced into Pro gear for such dramatic performance increase. But i just thought of possible bonuses for the repair tool for the other races. Min-High rep amount (Current) Amarr- Armor Damage resistance Cal-Shield damage resistance Gal-increased weapons efficiency (slower heat build up,faster reload,lower kick,etc.) Since nanites run the world,why not have the individual logistics be able to focus them towards additional functions. With this it becomes more desired to have more logistics,rather than just Min. Good Points All :) Particularly Tiering of equipment and the performance gaps is stupid huge, but careful how its phrased as a DEV may decide to nerf reps to make them more equal ... more to add to my logi list of things to do :) ADV 2 Streamers is a good idea. I like the ideas for the added effects of the streams, could be really awesome. I question the Gal from a lore standpoint of valuing life and all that stuff - a damage increase doesn't seem to fit them... if we are just spitballing ideas I wonder what else.... I could see Ammo resupply in there as well. Actually the rep gap between ADV and Pro is only so large because of dual beams. As an alternative Gal bonus how about module efficiency? They would then increase the efficiency of modules already present on the suit,aiding in survival. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1209	Posted - 2015.03.04 10:41:00 - [1497] - Quote Meee One wrote: As an alternative Gal bonus how about module efficiency? They would then increase the efficiency of modules already present on the suit,aiding in survival. I am assuming when you say module efficiency here, you actually mean efficacy as CCP uses the term, as in, increasing the output of the module, say x% more HP out of a HP module, and not fitting efficiency. In which case, not a good idea. I should hope I don't have to remind anyone of the original Cal logi shield module efficacy bonus? And the problems that ensued at least partially because of it... We are all hopefully trying to make all logistics suits better, as in worth running and balanced, making one logi suit the obviously best choice for "slayers" who want multiple equipment slots doesn't in my mind serve that purpose. And even if giving the Gal logi an efficacy bonus to a non-direct HP module (though, which one?), it would still differentiate the Gal logi very much from the other logis, who are equipment oriented... Which really is what the role is supposed to mainly be about, yes? (At least according to the very much equipment oriented bonuses all the logistics suits currently have.) And if you do mean efficiency as in fitting efficiency, of a certain type of module... you are still enabling potentially more HP tanking on the gal logi (in comparison to the other logi suits), while also detracting from the equipment orientation of the suit. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7231	Posted - 2015.03.04 15:37:00 - [1498] - Quote In light of upcoming HMG nerf, I'd like to formally suspend efforts (my own included) to "nerf GalLogi scans". I'd expect a decrease in PC Heavy usage to trigger a decrease in PC Scout usage; Assaults seem to be the superior slayer option in the absence of Heavies (see Ambush). It is possible, however, that the opposite will happen; that PC Scout usage will incline as PC Heavy usage declines. Which would be really bad news. I'm no fan of GalLogi scans, but they might be the only thing holding Scouts back from taking PC over (again). Emphasis on "might be". I think it too great a risk to nerf GalLogi scans and simultaneously nerf Heavies. So let's wait-and-see for now. If PC Scout usage inclines as PC Heavy usage declines, then keep those scans up until subsequent balance passes are made. If, on the other hand, PC Assault usage inclines as PC Heavy usage declines, then we'll resume efforts "nerf GalLogi scans". Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1560	Posted - 2015.03.04 16:43:00 - [1499] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Meee One wrote: As an alternative Gal bonus how about module efficiency? They would then increase the efficiency of modules already present on the suit,aiding in survival. I am assuming when you say module efficiency here, you actually mean efficacy as CCP uses the term, as in, increasing the output of the module, say x% more HP out of a HP module, and not fitting efficiency. In which case, not a good idea. I should hope I don't have to remind anyone of the original Cal logi shield module efficacy bonus? And the problems that ensued at least partially because of it... We are all hopefully trying to make all logistics suits better, as in worth running and balanced, making one logi suit the obviously best choice for "slayers" who want multiple equipment slots doesn't in my mind serve that purpose. And even if giving the Gal logi an efficacy bonus to a non-direct HP module (though, which one?), it would still differentiate the Gal logi very much from the other logis, who are equipment oriented... Which really is what the role is supposed to mainly be about, yes? (At least according to the very much equipment oriented bonuses all the logistics suits currently have.) And if you do mean efficiency as in fitting efficiency, of a certain type of module... you are still enabling potentially more HP tanking on the gal logi (in comparison to the other logi suits), while also detracting from the equipment orientation of the suit. >Didn't read the post i was responding to. I was talking about the rep target. Like Min has higher rep amount,Gal would increase the module efficiency on the suit it's repairing not itself. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1209	Posted - 2015.03.04 17:15:00 - [1500] - Quote Meee One wrote: I was talking about the rep target. Like Min has higher rep amount,Gal would increase the module efficiency on the suit it's repairing not itself. Well, thank ***. Because I was thinking you'd lost it for good. Have you* considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 894	Posted - 2015.03.04 19:09:00 - [1501] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: In light of upcoming HMG nerf, I'd like to formally suspend efforts (my own included) to "nerf GalLogi scans". I'd expect a decrease in PC Heavy usage to trigger a decrease in PC Scout usage. Assaults seem to be the superior slayer option in the absence of Heavies (see Ambush), so it stands to reason that they'll fill the void. It is possible, however, that the opposite will happen; that PC Scout usage will incline as PC Heavy usage declines. I personally believe that GalLogi scans are too strong, but they might be the only thing holding Assault Lite back from taking PC over (again). Emphasis on "might be". We can't possibly know until after the dust has settled following the HMG nerf; for this reason I think it too great a risk to simultaneously nerf GalLogi scans and Heavies in one patch. So let's wait-and-see for now. If PC Scout usage inclines as PC Heavy usage declines (the unexpected), then keep those scans up until subsequent balance passes are made. If, on the other hand, PC Assault usage inclines as PC Heavy usage declines (the ideal), then efforts to "nerf GalLogi scans" can be safely resumed. You never had a worthwhile basis for your suggestion anyway. Both Scout AND Assault use will incline some, Logi a little bit. But you're ******* crazy if you think Heavy use will decline that significantly in PC. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 894	Posted - 2015.03.04 19:23:00 - [1502] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Meee One wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Meee One wrote: The main problem with costs of equipment is that there's such a huge gap in tier performance. BDR-8:75 on a single target Six Kin:88 on two targets. Thats 13x2 hp/s loss. On weapons the change in damage is maybe 1 point per tier. I think ADV should get 2 targets,with the Pro having higher reps. It would make ADV not feel as worthless by comparison. ------ I'd like any possible updates if available. you forgot the price comparison BDR-8= 8070 ISK Six Kin = 2163 ISK Thats why when I try to cut costs I use the Core Repair tool. 70 HPS 13215 ISK It is worth the extra 5000 ISK for the two streams. Which is why ADV needs 2 as well. No other class is forced into Pro gear for such dramatic performance increase. But i just thought of possible bonuses for the repair tool for the other races. Min-High rep amount (Current) Amarr- Armor Damage resistance Cal-Shield damage resistance Gal-increased weapons efficiency (slower heat build up,faster reload,lower kick,etc.) Since nanites run the world,why not have the individual logistics be able to focus them towards additional functions. With this it becomes more desired to have more logistics,rather than just Min. Good Points All :) Particularly Tiering of equipment and the performance gaps is stupid huge, but careful how its phrased as a DEV may decide to nerf reps to make them more equal ... more to add to my logi list of things to do :) ADV 2 Streamers is a good idea. I like the ideas for the added effects of the streams, could be really awesome. I question the Gal from a lore standpoint of valuing life and all that stuff - a damage increase doesn't seem to fit them... if we are just spitballing ideas I wonder what else.... I could see Ammo resupply in there as well. I hate to be the DebbiDowner on this one but truth be told if dualbeaming filters down into the adv eq group then a restructuring of WP accrual for repping would absolutely need to be rewritten. Enabling duals on the lower rate/rep beam units will just create even more payout/WPWhoring by tourist users, since they'll be able to dirty needle and scab-rep not one poor sucker at a time but two . DualBeam is a PRO level feature best reserved for individuals willing to pay the price to give their team that best possible level of support dualing creates. I'd actually like to see us NOT tinker too much right now with the actual individual equipment stats/interplay outside of whats been proposed about use/replenishment already, focus on getting solid suit buffs in, the bonus spread handled then some gametime/playtesting with the new stats then, if neccessary we open Pandoras Box of Cans of Worms and start sifting through equipment stats. More than anything else because eq now is pretty well established, so in the overall equation of gamebalance keeping it a "constant" allows us to more precisely define what we will be redefining as "variables" with a better final result. The more things we change all at once the exponentially higher the odds of creating major imbalances that in fixing cost us other gains we may make. Kinda like Adipem in here, sour his class lost advantages they had and should have kept but lost because they weren't willing to KISS. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7233	Posted - 2015.03.04 19:28:00 - [1503] - Quote Appendix to Post 1491 Having given this further thought, I'm hesitant to ascribe one-way cause and effect. If Scout usage inclines as Heavy usage declines, the GalLogi may very well play an active role in that incline. Will a Gal/Cal Scout dampened below 21 dB make for a better slayer than a permascanned Assault? If so, if battlefields were not permascanned at 21dB, would the Assault not become the superior slayer? I don't know the answers to these questions, but I think them good questions to ask. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 894	Posted - 2015.03.04 19:56:00 - [1504] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Appendix to Post 1491 Having given this further thought, I'm hesitant to ascribe one-way cause and effect when a confluence of factors may be at play. If PC Scout usage inclines as Heavy usage declines, the GalLogi may very well play an active role in that incline. This outcome depends largely upon whether or not dampened Gal/CalScouts make for a better slayer than a permascanned Assault. If so, would it not stand to reason that battlefields permascanned at 21dB might be to blame? Should the 21dB permascan be lifted, would the Assault become the superior slayer? I don't know the answers to these questions, but I think them good questions to ask. Regardless, I stand by my position that is likely a bad idea to nerf Heavies and GalLogi scans simultaneously, whether or not both are OP. That sort of incline would be ascribed as "counter-interplay" and actually be exactly what should happen. Sub21db scanning (which is what we're actually talking about here) becomes "lifted" it doesn't actually do anything for the Assaults. It helps scouts. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7239	Posted - 2015.03.04 20:03:00 - [1505] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Appendix to Post 1491 Having given this further thought, I'm hesitant to ascribe one-way cause and effect when a confluence of factors may be at play. If PC Scout usage inclines as Heavy usage declines, the GalLogi may very well play an active role in that incline. This outcome depends largely upon whether or not dampened Gal/CalScouts make for a better slayer than a permascanned Assault. If so, would it not stand to reason that battlefields permascanned at 21dB might be to blame? Should the 21dB permascan be lifted, would the Assault become the superior slayer? I don't know the answers to these questions, but I think them good questions to ask. Regardless, I stand by my position that is likely a bad idea to nerf Heavies and GalLogi scans simultaneously, whether or not both are OP. That sort of incline would be ascribed as "counter-interplay" and actually be exactly what should happen. Sub21db scanning (which is what we're actually talking about here) becomes "lifted" it doesn't actually do anything for the Assaults. It helps scouts. I've been running quite a 'bit of Assault recently; in fact, I smashed your face 2-3 times just last week while field-testing Assault mk.0 + Shotgun. Or was it Assault gk.0 + Shotgun? Either way, I can assure that matches where "You've Been Scanned" reads constantly on screen play differently than matches where it does not. Something about the bad guys always knowing where you are. If that team-wide intel works well with red-dots in pubs, I can only imagine how well it works with seasoned vets in PC. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 275	Posted - 2015.03.04 20:21:00 - [1506] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: If so, would it not stand to reason that battlefields permascanned at 21dB might be to blame? If people running assault suits start shifting to scout suits to avoid scans, that does not suggest that scans are too strong against assaults. It suggests that scans are too weak against scouts. How unsurprising that you would get that backwards. Even if not explicitly advocating to nerf logi scans, you have a knack for framing an issue as though they're OP, even in circumstances that suggest that scans are really under-powered. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7240	Posted - 2015.03.04 20:37:00 - [1507] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If so, would it not stand to reason that battlefields permascanned at 21dB might be to blame? If people running assault suits start shifting to scout suits to avoid scans, that does not suggest that scans are too strong against assaults. It suggests that scans are too weak against scouts. How unsurprising that you would get that backwards. Even if not explicitly advocating to nerf logi scans, you have a knack for framing an issue as though they're OP, even in circumstances that suggest that scans are really under-powered. Let's play this out ... Assumption: GalLogi scans are UP; Scouts are OP. Scenario: Heavy Blob meta changes on account of HMG nerf. Instead of an increase in Assault usage, we observe an increase in Scout usage. The best response to the OP Scout is to buff UP GalLogi scans. Now, everyone is always scanned instead of everyone but Scouts always scanned. If everyone is always scanned, why would anyone run a squishy, dampened Scout? OP Scouts suddenly become UP Scouts, with nothing having changed other than the strength of the GalLogi's scans. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1561	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:02:00 - [1508] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Meee One wrote: I was talking about the rep target. Like Min has higher rep amount,Gal would increase the module efficiency on the suit it's repairing not itself. Well, thank ****. Because I was thinking you'd lost it for good. As if i ever had it to begin with. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 895	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:03:00 - [1509] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If so, would it not stand to reason that battlefields permascanned at 21dB might be to blame? If people running assault suits start shifting to scout suits to avoid scans, that does not suggest that scans are too strong against assaults. It suggests that scans are too weak against scouts. How unsurprising that you would get that backwards. Even if not explicitly advocating to nerf logi scans, you have a knack for framing an issue as though they're OP, even in circumstances that suggest that scans are really under-powered. Let's play this out ... Assumption: GalLogi scans are UP; Scouts are OP. Scenario: Heavy Blob meta changes on account of HMG nerf. Instead of an increase in Assault usage, we observe an increase in Scout usage. The best response to the OP Scout is to buff UP GalLogi scans. Now, instead of everyone but Scouts always being scanned (like today), everyone including Scouts are always scanned. If everyone is always scanned, why would anyone run a squishy, dampened Scout? OP Scouts suddenly become UP Scouts, with nothing having changed other than the strength of the GalLogi's scans. Next move: Nerf GalLogi scans. And nerf them hard enough for dampened Assaults to beat permascan and compete with Scouts; anything less, and we're back to where we began. Which is why where we are currently and what we have makes for tentative balance. Scans can scan, and fully invested stealth can stealth. If people could just find it in their ego to stfu and grow a pair the stability could be preserved and other developmental initiatives could take place. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 895	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:08:00 - [1510] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Appendix to Post 1491 Having given this further thought, I'm hesitant to ascribe one-way cause and effect when a confluence of factors may be at play. If PC Scout usage inclines as Heavy usage declines, the GalLogi may very well play an active role in that incline. This outcome depends largely upon whether or not dampened Gal/CalScouts make for a better slayer than a permascanned Assault. If so, would it not stand to reason that battlefields permascanned at 21dB might be to blame? Should the 21dB permascan be lifted, would the Assault become the superior slayer? I don't know the answers to these questions, but I think them good questions to ask. Regardless, I stand by my position that is likely a bad idea to nerf Heavies and GalLogi scans simultaneously, whether or not both are OP. That sort of incline would be ascribed as "counter-interplay" and actually be exactly what should happen. Sub21db scanning (which is what we're actually talking about here) becomes "lifted" it doesn't actually do anything for the Assaults. It helps scouts. I've been running quite a 'bit of Assault recently; in fact, I smashed your face 2-3 times just last week while field-testing Assault mk.0 + Shotgun. Or was it Assault gk.0 + Shotgun? Either way, I can assure that matches where "You've Been Scanned" reads constantly on screen play differently than matches where it does not. Something about the bad guys always knowing where you are. If that team-wide intel works well with red-dots in pubs, I can only imagine how well it works with seasoned vets in PC. No worries on "smashing" me in lolpubs in your mk0/SG fit, I write anything like that off as the lolpubstar protostomp scrub behaviour it is, especially when I've been mainly (as I have been the last several weeks) working on my assault game so was most likely in a STDBPO(dragonfly)toxin fit. gg Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7242	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:13:00 - [1511] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Which is why where we are currently and what we have makes for tentative balance. Scans can scan, and fully invested stealth can stealth. What we have now are competitive battlefields permascanned at 21dB. Whether or not that "makes for tentative balance" is debatable. There is a distinct absence of interplay and options for non-Scouts. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1561	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:16:00 - [1512] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If so, would it not stand to reason that battlefields permascanned at 21dB might be to blame? If people running assault suits start shifting to scout suits to avoid scans, that does not suggest that scans are too strong against assaults. It suggests that scans are too weak against scouts. How unsurprising that you would get that backwards. Even if not explicitly advocating to nerf logi scans, you have a knack for framing an issue as though they're OP, even in circumstances that suggest that scans are really under-powered. Let's play this out ... Assumption: GalLogi scans are UP; Scouts are OP. Scenario: Heavy Blob meta changes on account of HMG nerf. Instead of an increase in Assault usage, we observe an increase in Scout usage. The best response to the OP Scout is to buff UP GalLogi scans. Now, instead of everyone but Scouts always being scanned (like today), everyone including Scouts are always scanned. If everyone is always scanned, why would anyone run a squishy, dampened Scout? OP Scouts suddenly become UP Scouts, with nothing having changed other than the strength of the GalLogi's scans. Next move: Nerf GalLogi scans. And nerf them hard enough for dampened Assaults to beat permascan and compete with Scouts; anything less, and we're back to where we began. Why do assaults need to hide again? Weren't they given 160 extra eHP and 8-9 slots so they wouldn't have to? Yes,yes they were. Aren't scouts supposed to be better at sneaking? Yes,yes they are. Undetectable? No Hard to scan? Yes TBH the buff to dampening should've been given to logistics along with the range buff. It's because of those shenanigans that now players are saying 400+ eHP suits need to be invisible to scans. Dampeners on anything but scouts is a lol fit and should'nt be taken seriously as a campaign slogan. And i notice you keep mentioning assaults. I have a feeling that you know that when any discussion comes between assault vs logistics,logistics always loses. And you are showing equipment envy,obviously because of those 2 equipment slots. So i've a solution to that. Remove 1 equipment from scouts and give it to commandos. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1561	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:18:00 - [1513] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Which is why where we are currently and what we have makes for tentative balance. Scans can scan, and fully invested stealth can stealth. What we have now are competitive battlefields permascanned at 21dB. Whether or not that "makes for tentative balance" is debatable. There is a distinct absence of interplay and options for non-Scouts. But if you have your way scouts will be undetectable,ever. Because if assaults can beat scans scouts could much more easily. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7243	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:22:00 - [1514] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: lolpubstar protostomp Stomps or stomping are Dust at its worst in my book. I run solo far more often than not, and I was solo at the time, field-testing proto assault suits (recently respec'd into three of them). It isn't protostomping if you're solo, and if a soloist pubstomped an OSG squad, the problem is not with the soloist. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7243	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:37:00 - [1515] - Quote Meee One wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Which is why where we are currently and what we have makes for tentative balance. Scans can scan, and fully invested stealth can stealth. What we have now are competitive battlefields permascanned at 21dB. Whether or not that "makes for tentative balance" is debatable. There is a distinct absence of interplay and options for non-Scouts. But if you have your way scouts will be undetectable,ever. Because if assaults can beat scans scouts could much more easily. If I had my way, Assaults could beat what is presently 21dB permascan at a reasonable investment of 2 complex dampeners. Scouts would beat what are presently 15dB periodic scans at an investment of 2 complex dampeners (+cloak:on in the case of AM and MN). This would be far from "undetectable ever". Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:41:00 - [1516] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Which is why where we are currently and what we have makes for tentative balance. Scans can scan, and fully invested stealth can stealth. What we have now are competitive battlefields permascanned at 21dB. Whether or not that "makes for tentative balance" is debatable. There is a distinct absence of interplay and options for non-Scouts. You keep dropping buzzwords like "permascanned" but theres nothing "perma" about scans, except in situations where the scanees keep exposing themselves to the scanner. Scanner getting you down? try gtfo of the area OR maybe doing a little RECON and greasing that evil scanner demon guy. I definitely notice a lack of option generation or utilization (htfu) from you . The PC scout community? The lolpub and FW groups? not so much Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:44:00 - [1517] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Meee One wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Which is why where we are currently and what we have makes for tentative balance. Scans can scan, and fully invested stealth can stealth. What we have now are competitive battlefields permascanned at 21dB. Whether or not that "makes for tentative balance" is debatable. There is a distinct absence of interplay and options for non-Scouts. But if you have your way scouts will be undetectable,ever. Because if assaults can beat scans scouts could much more easily. If I had my way, Assaults could beat what is presently 21dB permascan at a reasonable investment of 2 complex dampeners. Scouts would beat what are presently 15dB periodic scans at an investment of 2 complex dampeners (+cloak:on in the case of AM and MN). This would be far from "undetectable ever". Then go find or make an Assault base profile lowering thread and sell your line there. Scouts dampened currently beat the strongest scanner used by the strongest suit. You get that? THEY. BEAT. IT. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:46:00 - [1518] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: lolpubstar protostomp Stomps or stomping are Dust at its worst in my book. I run solo far more often than not, and I was solo at the time, field-testing proto assault suits (recently respec'd into three of them). It isn't protostomping if you're solo, and if an OSG squad got pubstomped by a soloist, the soloist is not to blame for that. FullProto fit in pubs is Protostomping, period. You are not part of the solution, in other words. not sure what OSG is, in this context. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7244	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:49:00 - [1519] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: You keep dropping buzzwords like "permascanned" but theres nothing "perma" about scans 1 GalLogi running multiple Creodon Flux scanners can illuminate an entire city socket at 21dB. Scans are up far more often than they are down, and they are shared team-wide. Add a second GalLogi (if needed) and see the city permascanned. Outside of PC, permascan can also be observed in Ambush matches against Nyain San. One GalLogi is sufficient illuminate an entire match. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7244	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:51:00 - [1520] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: not sure what OSG is, in this context. You're right ... confused Cap Acq with OSG ... it was a squad of "you guys". Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7244	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:58:00 - [1521] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: . Scouts dampened currently beat the strongest scanner used by the strongest suit. You get that? THEY. BEAT. IT. "But you can beat me" is not an indication of balance. My Assault Rifle can beat Heavies. This doesn't mean that HMGs are not in need of tuning. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:13:00 - [1522] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: You keep dropping buzzwords like "permascanned" but theres nothing "perma" about scans 1 GalLogi running multiple Creodon Flux scanners can illuminate an entire city socket at 21dB. Scans are up far more often than they are down, and they are shared team-wide. Add a second GalLogi (if needed) and see the city permascanned. Outside of PC, permascan can also be observed in Ambush matches with/against Nyain San (and their equivalents). One GalLogi is sufficient to illuminate an entire match. This is far from a fluke; it can be observed all day, every day in every match they play. CreoFlux doesn't scan at 21, even w/GalLogi bonus. Stack those ******* up, have 3 f'n guys in there and you still won't have the whole place "permascanned" AND, AND (!!) all that "permascanning" is STILL defeatable by a properly fitted Stealth suit. I'd apologize for NyainSan having gaped you in an Ambush match, but the thing you're forgetting is that IT'S AMBUSH. Gaping is what goes on because there's literally nothing else to do. The mode is premised on the idea that one team has AMBUSHED another. And I'm not in Nyain so if you want an apology from them you'll have to get it from them directly. If you need I can probably get you in touch with their leadership, maybe. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7245	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:14:00 - [1523] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: CreoFlux doesn't scan at 21, even w/GalLogi bonus. Math Says: 28 dB + 25% GalLogi Precision Bonus = 21 dB * Please see protofits if you don't want to believe my math. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:15:00 - [1524] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: not sure what OSG is, in this context. You're right, and thank you. Confused Cap Acq with OSG for moment ... it was you and a squad of your guys. Will fix my post. Dude, if you pubstomped some of my guys I thank you for it. They need that **** sometimes. Though, if you didn't Win the actual match you didn't stomp a damn thing w/e the final leaderboard said. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:18:00 - [1525] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: CreoFlux doesn't scan at 21, even w/GalLogi bonus. Math Says: 28 dB + 25% GalLogi Precision Bonus = 21 dB * Please see protofits if you don't want to believe my math. My bad, full proto GalLogi hits 21ish Properly damped Proto Scouts still beat it, everyday in MH. I know because I use it and it falses often. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:23:00 - [1526] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: . Scouts dampened currently beat the strongest scanner used by the strongest suit. You get that? THEY. BEAT. IT. "But you can beat me" is not an indication of balance. My Assault Rifle can beat Heavies. This doesn't mean that HMGs are not in need of tuning. No, its an indicator of interplay, which is a condition for balance. Just like OverPowered is a condition of NO interplay, the OP is OP always which is what makes it OP. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7245	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:25:00 - [1527] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: CreoFlux doesn't scan at 21, even w/GalLogi bonus. Math Says: 28 dB + 25% GalLogi Precision Bonus = 21 dB * Please see protofits if you don't want to believe my math. My bad, full proto GalLogi hits 21ish Indeed it does. If all of your arguments up to this point were based on a higher number, I understand why you've been so contentious. GalLogi 21dB Active Scans Prox - 60m, 45-¦, 15 sec visibility, 10 sec cooldown Creo - 100m, 60-¦, 7.5 sec visibility, 15 sec cooldown Flux - 200m, 90-¦, 12 sec visibility, 30 sec cooldown Qua - 100m, 60-¦, 30 sec visibility, 40 sec cooldown These are the source of 21dB permascan; Assaults have to run 3 damps to beat it. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:30:00 - [1528] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: . Scouts dampened currently beat the strongest scanner used by the strongest suit. You get that? THEY. BEAT. IT. My Assault Rifle can beat Heavies. This doesn't mean that HMGs are not in need of tuning. Does mean that you continue to show a tendency to draw conclusions from poor or incomplete data tho. Your AR vs Heavies has very little place in a comparison of the HMG vs anything else. If anything, taken at face value, that your AR beats heavies at all (which implies a DPS output similiar to the HMG) would indicate that your AR probably needs some tuning. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:35:00 - [1529] - Quote Meee One wrote: And you are showing equipment envy,obviously because of those 2 equipment slots. So i've a solution to that. Remove 1 equipment from scouts and give it to commandos. That is the sort of idea that the more I use my light frames and my Commandos the more it just seems better and better. I think too that with the empahsis coming around to doing some rework on Mandos this could actually get some traction towards review. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7245	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:35:00 - [1530] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Dude, if you pubstomped some of my guys I thank you for it. They need that ** sometimes. Though, if you didn't Win the actual match you didn't stomp a damn thing w/e the final leaderboard said. Your words (not mine): el OPERATOR wrote:** lolpubstar protostomp It was an Ambush match, and it was very a close one. Lots of guys were in proto gear, but no one got protostomped. If I recall correctly, your team won. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:44:00 - [1531] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Dude, if you pubstomped some of my guys I thank you for it. They need that ** sometimes. Though, if you didn't Win the actual match you didn't stomp a damn thing w/e the final leaderboard said. Your words (not mine): el OPERATOR wrote:** lolpubstar protostomp It was an Ambush match, and it was very a close one. Lots of guys were in proto gear, but noone got protostomped. I noticed your name right away and set out to kill you as many as possible. If I recall correctly, I got you 3x and your squad won. 1. When you're me and play like I do, you stop worrying about being shot after the very first time it happens. 2. I am the guy who is not silent in or out of corp on the Scrub behaviour that is protostomping pubs. 3. If you saw me in a bush match at all in the last few weeks with a squad, let alone a corp squad, its an anomaly. More likely is I was doing my RnD (std assault) in bush and corpmates (in a separate squad) were MU'd into the same battle. 4. Only 3 times? Come at me, bro. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7245	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:46:00 - [1532] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: 4. Only 3 times? Come at me, bro. I joined the match late! Believe me, I tried my very best to kill you. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 897	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:57:00 - [1533] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: CreoFlux doesn't scan at 21, even w/GalLogi bonus. Math Says: 28 dB + 25% GalLogi Precision Bonus = 21 dB * Please see protofits if you don't want to believe my math. My bad, full proto GalLogi hits 21ish Indeed it does. If your thinking up to this point was based upon a higher number, I understand now better why you've been contentious and obstinate in your responses. No harm, no foul. GalLogi 21dB Active Scans Prox - 60m, 45-¦, 15 sec visibility, 10 sec cooldown Creo - 100m, 60-¦, 7.5 sec visibility, 15 sec cooldown Flux - 200m, 90-¦, 12 sec visibility, 30 sec cooldown Qua - 100m, 60-¦, 30 sec visibility, 40 sec cooldown These are the source of 21dB permascan. Assaults have to run 3 damps to beat them. LOL My "obstinance" stems from my experience in running those scans, and seeing them be defeated. Often. My "contentiousness" stems from my experience in you running in here making claims, like that GalLogi Scans are these super OP murderrays, when the facts on the ground are otherwise. Will good scans scan assaults and bad scouts? Yes, and they should. Will they scan damped Assaults and properly damped Scouts, in most scenarios. No, and the would and should of that is debatable. Debate that for the most part is closed and I (regardless my opinion on the existing results) don't see the need to reopen since, as we have it currently, there is interplay of ewar between medium frames which is the road to complete balance. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 898	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:02:00 - [1534] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: 4. Only 3 times? Come at me, bro. I joined the match late! Believe me, I tried my very best to hunt and kill you from the moment I saw your name. O.o reported for griefing XD I'm usually pretty easy to find, PC district defenses are actually your best bet. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 898	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:05:00 - [1535] - Quote Though in PC lately I've been doing more Mando'ing than anything else. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7246	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:07:00 - [1536] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: there is interplay of ewar between medium frames which is the road to complete balance. [/i] There is no more interplay today than there was with the Passive Scans of past builds. Either run a heavily dampened Scout Suit or be constantly scanned. The only thing that has changed is the source of the constant scans. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 898	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:24:00 - [1537] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: there is interplay of ewar between medium frames which is the road to complete balance. [/i] There is no more interplay today than there was with the Passive Scans of past builds. Either run a heavily dampened Scout Suit or be constantly scanned. The only thing that has changed is the source of the constant scans. Except A) the scans aren't constant and B) they aren't passive, moving around the field 360-¦ with the "user" and C) the lowest possible precision is still higher than the lowest possible dampening. You do realize that if you've been scanned entering an area you can back out and try from a different direction, right? And with the speeds scouts move at you'll be in a good spot to figure roughly where your (bright yellow non-cloaked) scanner is before it even recharges, right? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 898	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:41:00 - [1538] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Though in PC lately I've been doing more Mando'ing than anything else. Its okay, I like a change of pace too and truthfully my corp has hired in recent months several raw and refined talent Logis who need and deserve the experiential opportunity PC provides. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7255	Posted - 2015.03.05 00:04:00 - [1539] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: My "contentiousness" stems from my experience in you running in here making claims ... Now this I can relate to. Nothing quite like a yahoo popping into the Scout thread to tell everyone there that they're doing it wrong. Guess its entirely possible that I'm being that yahoo here in your thread. Then again, it is also entirely possible that talking EWAR balance to GalLogis is like talking AV balance to a room full of Pilots. I'd like to think this debate of ours here is yahoo-free. Whether or not we agree on anything at the end of the day, we've been relatively good at keeping cool heads and getting the facts and figures straight. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 767	Posted - 2015.03.05 00:06:00 - [1540] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Meee One wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Meee One wrote: The main problem with costs of equipment is that there's such a huge gap in tier performance. BDR-8:75 on a single target Six Kin:88 on two targets. Thats 13x2 hp/s loss. On weapons the change in damage is maybe 1 point per tier. I think ADV should get 2 targets,with the Pro having higher reps. It would make ADV not feel as worthless by comparison. ------ I'd like any possible updates if available. you forgot the price comparison BDR-8= 8070 ISK Six Kin = 2163 ISK Thats why when I try to cut costs I use the Core Repair tool. 70 HPS 13215 ISK It is worth the extra 5000 ISK for the two streams. Which is why ADV needs 2 as well. No other class is forced into Pro gear for such dramatic performance increase. But i just thought of possible bonuses for the repair tool for the other races. Min-High rep amount (Current) Amarr- Armor Damage resistance Cal-Shield damage resistance Gal-increased weapons efficiency (slower heat build up,faster reload,lower kick,etc.) Since nanites run the world,why not have the individual logistics be able to focus them towards additional functions. With this it becomes more desired to have more logistics,rather than just Min. Good Points All :) Particularly Tiering of equipment and the performance gaps is stupid huge, but careful how its phrased as a DEV may decide to nerf reps to make them more equal ... more to add to my logi list of things to do :) ADV 2 Streamers is a good idea. I like the ideas for the added effects of the streams, could be really awesome. I question the Gal from a lore standpoint of valuing life and all that stuff - a damage increase doesn't seem to fit them... if we are just spitballing ideas I wonder what else.... I could see Ammo resupply in there as well. I hate to be the DebbiDowner on this one but truth be told if dualbeaming filters down into the adv eq group then a restructuring of WP accrual for repping would absolutely need to be rewritten. Enabling duals on the lower rate/rep beam units will just create even more payout/WPWhoring by tourist users, since they'll be able to dirty needle and scab-rep not one poor sucker at a time but two . DualBeam is a PRO level feature best reserved for individuals willing to pay the price to give their team that best possible level of support dualing creates. I'd actually like to see us NOT tinker too much right now with the actual individual equipment stats/interplay outside of whats been proposed about use/replenishment already, focus on getting solid suit buffs in, the bonus spread handled then some gametime/playtesting with the new stats then, if neccessary we open Pandoras Box of Cans of Worms and start sifting through equipment stats. More than anything else because eq now is pretty well established, so in the overall equation of gamebalance keeping it a "constant" allows us to more precisely define what we will be redefining as "variables" with a better final result. The more things we change all at once the exponentially higher the odds of creating major imbalances that in fixing cost us other gains we may make. Kinda like Adipem in here, sour his class lost advantages they had and should have kept but lost because they weren't willing to KISS. I didn't see it that way. Running a useful logi has turned into a "go pro or go home" in terms of equipment. Even running the standard suits as I do in order to be effective I still need to run 1 or 2 pieces of Proto Gear, normally the repper and an adv hive or sickstick. Other modules on the suit are often std. Because that level of gear is required and gear is so expensive... well you know the rest. Dropping the price of gear is one option that I approve of as a way to keep costs in line with other suits. AN alternative is to adjust some of the tiered equipment to actually be a solid choice for logi's. Making it so that a Logibro can do good work with adv gear as well as pro. That's the biggest point I see. Since we don't know where the dev's are willing to deal some give and take I like having this option open. I do hear your opinion as to 'too many changes at once' but I am hoping for some stat/bonus/EQ changes to happen at the same time because we have been waiting for so long. Second to that is another concern of, "if they make one change will they just call it good and move on and not worry about bonuses or eq?" While I get that too much at once may not be the best option I see it all as the single chance we have to get it all worked out. I'll flip flop on this for a while - still on the fence despite what the safest option may be. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower

RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 767	Posted - 2015.03.05 00:08:00 - [1541] - Quote Meee One wrote: As an alternative Gal bonus how about module efficiency? They would then increase the efficiency of modules already present on the suit,aiding in survival. Perhaps just the armor repair module, as their race is talented in that regard? Complete module efficiency may be too much. Cool idea The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 905	Posted - 2015.03.05 00:21:00 - [1542] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: My "contentiousness" stems from my experience in you running in here making claims ... Now this I can relate to. Nothing quite like a yahoo popping into the Scout thread to tell everyone there that they're doing it wrong. Guess its entirely possible that I'm being that yahoo here in your thread. Then again, it is also entirely possible that talking EWAR balance to GalLogis is like talking AV balance to a room full of Pilots. I'd like to think this debate of ours here is yahoo-free. Whether or not we agree on anything at the end of the day, we've been relatively good at keeping cool heads and getting the facts and figures straight. Confirmed: You are a yahoo. /thread Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 767	Posted - 2015.03.05 00:25:00 - [1543] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: You keep dropping buzzwords like "permascanned" but theres nothing "perma" about scans 1 GalLogi running multiple Creodon Flux scanners can illuminate an entire city socket at 21dB. Scans are up far more often than they are down, and they are shared team-wide. Add a second GalLogi (if needed) and see the city permascanned. Outside of PC, permascan can also be observed in Ambush matches with/against Nyain San (and their equivalents). One GalLogi is sufficient to illuminate an entire match. This is far from a fluke; it can be observed all day, every day in every match they play. Yeah that Gal Logi just constantly running scans is something I disagree with. At my heart of logi hearts they are a disgrace, as helpful as it may be I see it as fringe gameplay to a true Support Logi - that is my opinion and how I like to play, but that is all it is as I can't speak to the community's thoughts on it. BUT the sandbox nature of this game allows a person to play however they would like with almost whatever they want - (still waiting on my HMG scout) - but just because we may say it is proper and acceptable doesn't mean that people will follow it. While I see that it is a powerful Troll build I don't see what could be done about it. Limiting the number of same type of equipment is just like limiting the possibility of sidearm builds that use the same weapon or other builds that rely on only 1 or 2 kinds of modules. If you can fit it or carry it then you can use it. THUS! I think that adding the Capacitor idea to the suits and suit equipment is a good idea! Imagine scanning until the capacitor is out and must recharge - pulling out another scanner won't fix the situation, one would still have to wait! There would likely be capacitor recharge and/or increase by x% module but still - I see this as the best answer to date. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 905	Posted - 2015.03.05 01:16:00 - [1544] - Quote And as "bad" as I may have ever been towards you and your brand of booboo I don't think I'm even close to some of the vitriol that starts flying around between pilots and AV. see what I dun thar??!?!!!? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 279	Posted - 2015.03.05 06:39:00 - [1545] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If so, would it not stand to reason that battlefields permascanned at 21dB might be to blame? If people running assault suits start shifting to scout suits to avoid scans, that does not suggest that scans are too strong against assaults. It suggests that scans are too weak against scouts. How unsurprising that you would get that backwards. Even if not explicitly advocating to nerf logi scans, you have a knack for framing an issue as though they're OP, even in circumstances that suggest that scans are really under-powered. Let's play this out... Again with the distractions... The simple truth is that there is nothing OP about the most precise scans having a small chance of picking up the stealthiest scouts. For you to suggest that scans are OP in the current system, where the most precise scans have ZERO chance of picking up the stealthiest scouts, simply is not reasonable. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 768	Posted - 2015.03.06 02:54:00 - [1546] - Quote Adjusted some scanning values after playing with the numbers a bit. It gives the logi RANGE but not the precision of a Scout. I want Precision too for lore reasons, but I can give it up. I like range but maxed out it beats the Cal Scout. going over the numbers again 2 complex damps beats most anything on a scout, just impressed is all. So, Here are some more numbers plugged into: RedBleach's Logi Community Proposal haven't worked on the equipment section since the Echo announcement. But I will do. when we see the final numbers. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
DJINN Jecture Tribal Band Dust Mercenaries Immortals of War 263	Posted - 2015.03.06 04:55:00 - [1547] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross Reference:Nanohive Alchemy: Nanite Cluster Mysteries <-- Until I get better numbers, use this as a reference point. EDIT: Proposed changes WORKING DRAFT 1st iteration 2nd iteration 3rd iteration<--- Feedback phase in progress, consideration of both concepts and numbers welcome Note: Undergoing updates, document will be made current after the deployment of Patch 1.9 Note: While proposed equipment changes from iteration 1 have currently been tabled discussion is on going, particularly with respects to a more scaled method of the equipment changes Examples: Cross Atu wrote: STD - 10% ADV - 15% PRO - 25% or STD - 5% ADV - 10% PRO - 20% The reduction of useful equipment is really not needed, however if you really want feedback how about asking what we think Support players need. My personal opinion is more towards giving all Logi suits more HP at the base level, at least an extra 50-100hp per level of logistics suit as a bonus for all Logis. Support means helping not being the first rag doll off the field because you are the lowest HP of the bunch. *--I am a Free Agent for Hire--*
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4078	Posted - 2015.03.10 21:19:00 - [1548] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: The reduction of useful equipment is really not needed, however if you really want feedback how about asking what we think Support players need. I honestly do not know what you are saying here, please elaborate because there is clearly a breakdown in communication somewhere (quite possibly on my end). Quote: My personal opinion is more towards giving all Logi suits more HP at the base level, at least an extra 50-100hp per level of logistics suit as a bonus for all Logis. Support means helping not being the first rag doll off the field because you are the lowest HP of the bunch. More HP, or at least eHP is unequivocally required in my studied view. I very much doubt there is a proposal for a rework that could be viable and not include this. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2627	Posted - 2015.03.11 00:56:00 - [1549] - Quote For the short term (like maybe get it in echo short term) can you bring up having logi slot setup match their assault counterparts? I don't get why my AmAssault is 1/3 and my AmLogi is 2/2. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1567	Posted - 2015.03.11 03:27:00 - [1550] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: For the short term (like maybe get it in echo short term) can you bring up having logi slot setup match their assault counterparts? I don't get why my AmAssault is 1/3 and my AmLogi is 2/2. There's one change i'd like. Convert all 1 weapon logistics sidearm slot to an equipment slot. Then have weapon swap quickly switch between the two. After that,give Amarr + (possibly) Cal logistics +1 equipment (in the normal place on the suit). +CPU/PG =All logistics officially have more equipment than scouts. On another topic. Would a capacitor variant be possible for hives and uplinks? For example: -Starts with 2 'charges' -deploy 1 -1 'charge' remains,but it automatically refills Benefit: -'infinite' hives and uplinks Drawback: -Less carried (3 max on Ish gauged) -Can't be suit swap refilled at supply depots With the new carried increase the drawback seems sufficient. Then Amarr and Cal logistics can get a reduction to capacitor refills. (Something like 15% total.) Gal can get cooldown to scans. And Min can get more range or rep amount. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.

xTheSiLLyRaBBiTx Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 419	Posted - 2015.03.11 04:21:00 - [1551] - Quote 2 Points: Bandwidth Visibilty & Nanohive WP output increase. As of right now, players have to try to puzzle together what active equipment they can and can't have on the field pending upon which suit. You can imagine the confusion that can take place when suits maybe switched out at fast pace, one could lose track of what will be lost vs what will be sustained. Visually, having the BW capacitor in the HUD/cluster. I feel that if the player could see on each suit the actual capacity of active equipment bandwith, it could be a very valuable tool to the Logi, as well as any other suit playable. This pont has been on my mind since the patch was instated. i.e. Proto amarr Logi having a 36 max BW would display something like 36/36 after I place 6 uplinks (4BW each), followed by one allotek nanohive (6BW each) simultaneously. This would be max capacity. Now, switching off to a min Logi (32BW); my first link would pop due to the FIFO [first in first out] laws. This would regulate back to 32/32 max, visibly descending or rising based on suit preference. Another Idea has to do with the Cal Logi. As of right now it is still not a viable contender to call upon like its three racial peers. With the equipment buff giving a slight edge on the Cal logi, I feel that a WP buff would be sufficient from the standard +10. *\|LOGi GOD\|* Director of Fatal Absolution
DJINN Jecture CANNIBALS RISING Dark Taboo 267	Posted - 2015.03.11 16:29:00 - [1552] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: The reduction of useful equipment is really not needed, however if you really want feedback how about asking what we think Support players need. I honestly do not know what you are saying here, please elaborate because there is clearly a breakdown in communication somewhere (quite possibly on my end). Quote: My personal opinion is more towards giving all Logi suits more HP at the base level, at least an extra 50-100hp per level of logistics suit as a bonus for all Logis. Support means helping not being the first rag doll off the field because you are the lowest HP of the bunch. More HP, or at least eHP is unequivocally required in my studied view. I very much doubt there is a proposal for a rework that could be viable and not include this. My personal opinion about the state of equipment is that it should be useful for at least the length of time needed to refill ammo for a player's guns, grenades and REs or possibly 2-3 players, and more not just expire after one clip and one grenade (hives). *--I am a Free Agent for Hire--*
Mister Goo Random Gunz 177	Posted - 2015.03.11 19:39:00 - [1553] - Quote Hot fix Echo is giving us some small improvement to the equipment. The addition of 3x to each deployable equipment type(Hives, Links, and proxies) will be a big benefit to everyone not just the logi's. With the exception for Drop Links which they are adding the extra links but cutting the total spawn count in half. This will now make the Amar Bonus a bigger thing. To be honest, I was hoping for a better pass on the logi frame as a whole. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 913	Posted - 2015.03.11 21:22:00 - [1554] - Quote I'm just going to take a run at the last page or so, there's new input in- HP- This a given (evidently), we need more, agreed. Sidearms- Leave my AmLogi alone and give one to my Cal. And cpu for that Cal, btw. Slot Parity- I'm still a no on this, IMO slot differences between Logi and Assault frames reinforce not just the differences in the suits' roles but also in their fitting needs. Which is a good thing. Capacitors- **** no. Never. We already have Bandwidth which limits how much eq we can use at once, as well as fixed nanite counts which limit the output of hives AND hard cooldowns after use for our active equipment. For ex. even if I don't scan an area for the entire time that I could (snapshot) my scanner still becomes inactive and cools for the full cooldown period. This is functionally superior to gameplay than a capacitor system that would allow me to "pepper" an area with "snapshot scans" almost ceaslessly but for the momentary gap in between while the capacitor "recharges". Bandwidth Avail Meter Visibility- Totally overdue, belongs in the HUD. That it wasn't included in some fashion at the point of BW rollout speaks volumes about the lack of full idea vetting at the development level. Not to crack too hard on Ratt/CCP, but wtf ppl? How did you not realize the need for that AND after posting the idea and the deployment intent how did you ignore the droves of players that pointed out the need for one? Bandwidth in general never should have been released without it. I think thats it, flame away! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 914	Posted - 2015.03.11 22:33:00 - [1555] - Quote Almost forgot, bring back the being repaired glow or create a new indicator for repairees. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Mister Goo Random Gunz 177	Posted - 2015.03.11 22:35:00 - [1556] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I'm just going to take a run at the last page or so, there's new input in- HP- This a given (evidently), we need more, agreed. Sidearms- Leave my AmLogi alone and give one to my Cal. And cpu for that Cal, btw. Slot Parity- I'm still a no on this, IMO slot differences between Logi and Assault frames reinforce not just the differences in the suits' roles but also in their fitting needs. Which is a good thing. Capacitors- **** no. Never. We already have Bandwidth which limits how much eq we can use at once, as well as fixed nanite counts which limit the output of hives AND hard cooldowns after use for our active equipment. For ex. even if I don't scan an area for the entire time that I could (snapshot) my scanner still becomes inactive and cools for the full cooldown period. This is functionally superior to gameplay than a capacitor system that would allow me to "pepper" an area with "snapshot scans" almost ceaslessly but for the momentary gap in between while the capacitor "recharges" or having a "capacitor" fueled bottomless well to spam CoreNades from. Bandwidth Avail Meter Visibility- Totally overdue, belongs in the HUD. That it wasn't included in some fashion at the point of BW rollout speaks volumes about the lack of full idea vetting at the development level. Not to crack too hard on Ratt/CCP, but wtf ppl? How did you not realize the need for that AND after posting the idea and the deployment intent how did you ignore the droves of players that pointed out the need for one? Bandwidth in general never should have been released without it. I think thats it, flame away! HP = Yes Sidearms I agree with you Slot Parity on the fence, I can see benefits of both sides. Capacitors, I would like to see it as a variant but not a total replacement Bandwidth meter = Yes Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 770	Posted - 2015.03.12 00:08:00 - [1557] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I'm just going to take a run at the last page or so, there's new input in- HP- This a given (evidently), we need more, agreed. Sidearms- Leave my AmLogi alone and give one to my Cal. And cpu for that Cal, btw. Slot Parity- I'm still a no on this, IMO slot differences between Logi and Assault frames reinforce not just the differences in the suits' roles but also in their fitting needs. Which is a good thing. Capacitors- **** no. Never. We already have Bandwidth which limits how much eq we can use at once, as well as fixed nanite counts which limit the output of hives AND hard cooldowns after use for our active equipment. For ex. even if I don't scan an area for the entire time that I could (snapshot) my scanner still becomes inactive and cools for the full cooldown period. This is functionally superior to gameplay than a capacitor system that would allow me to "pepper" an area with "snapshot scans" almost ceaslessly but for the momentary gap in between while the capacitor "recharges" or having a "capacitor" fueled bottomless well to spam CoreNades from. Bandwidth Avail Meter Visibility- Totally overdue, belongs in the HUD. That it wasn't included in some fashion at the point of BW rollout speaks volumes about the lack of full idea vetting at the development level. Not to crack too hard on Ratt/CCP, but wtf ppl? How did you not realize the need for that AND after posting the idea and the deployment intent how did you ignore the droves of players that pointed out the need for one? Bandwidth in general never should have been released without it. I think thats it, flame away! I think you and I have a different understanding of how capacitors might work, because refilling nades is wack! I believe the capacitor would work with active and infinite equipment. Bandwidth takes care of product placement. But should broadcasting cut into capacitor energies? A little I think. Bandwidth just means we have the availability to maintain communication. Sending that signal is something else. Active modules (future) and active equipment like the scanner, reptool, and cloak (shield bubble, miasma bubble etc, in possible future) will have an effect on the capacitor, each will take a sustained portion. Maybe even weapons or the additions to weapons in the future. While each item has its own power-source or workings it needs to connected to the suit to work. But their initial activation and possible sustained activation may drain resources. So if there is a capacitor of 50 for a logi and a Scanner takes 20 upon activation with a recharge time of 3 per second once it is drained the scanner just wont work unti there are enough resources available. whether that be 1 scanner or 4. Meanwhile if a reptool took 15 to activate it would be a new formula to decide to scan and then rep or decide that 2 scans were needed and wait for the ability to rep. Maybe it's a buffer with current CPU so that running a high capacitor suit meant keeping all equiped stuff at a low cpu level, meaning that to have a super scanner one could wear very little in the way of gear. I'm not saying its perfect, I'm just saying that it stops the scan spam with a soft solution. Obviously peppering is a possibility but if it took 20 regardless it may not be worth it. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 770	Posted - 2015.03.12 00:09:00 - [1558] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: The reduction of useful equipment is really not needed, however if you really want feedback how about asking what we think Support players need. I honestly do not know what you are saying here, please elaborate because there is clearly a breakdown in communication somewhere (quite possibly on my end). Quote: My personal opinion is more towards giving all Logi suits more HP at the base level, at least an extra 50-100hp per level of logistics suit as a bonus for all Logis. Support means helping not being the first rag doll off the field because you are the lowest HP of the bunch. More HP, or at least eHP is unequivocally required in my studied view. I very much doubt there is a proposal for a rework that could be viable and not include this. Reworking Proposal :) The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5280	Posted - 2015.03.12 11:30:00 - [1559] - Quote Hotfix Echo makes me super happy. Seeing community ideas being put into the game is probably the best part of Dust 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 1389	Posted - 2015.03.12 15:25:00 - [1560] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Hotfix Echo makes me super happy. Seeing community ideas being put into the game is probably the best part of Dust Hopefully Hotfix Foxtrot takes some of the ideas from this thread. We only started discussing it 7 months ago to the day. Not getting my hopes up. Learned to not do that ages ago, but a Logi can dream... Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7

Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven Back and Forth 1223	Posted - 2015.03.12 16:13:00 - [1561] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: Hotfix Echo makes me super happy. Seeing community ideas being put into the game is probably the best part of Dust Hopefully Hotfix Foxtrot takes some of the ideas from this thread. We only started discussing it 7 months ago to the day. Not getting my hopes up. Learned to not do that ages ago, but a Logi can dream... Sure, a Logi can dream... But eventually you have to wake up and face reality Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1571	Posted - 2015.03.12 20:57:00 - [1562] - Quote How about a new variant of hives and uplinks? All capacitor based. Instead of hives being infinite,how about a 'tactical' version whose refills are capacitor based? Hives: Throw down a hive. Arm cloak/RE detonation prompt comes up to turn it on/off. Press the button. Sends out a pulses to refill allies. Can be done until capacitor runs out,but it does refill. Benefits: -'infinite' refills -Invisible to scans while not active Drawbacks: -lower amount deployed at a time (max 1) Uplinks: Throw down an uplink. Arm cloak/RE detonation prompt comes up to turn it on/off. Press the button. Allows respawns. Can be done until capacitor runs out,but it does refill. Benefits: -'infinite' spawns -Invisible to scans while not active Drawbacks: -low spawn amount (3-5) Then,apply Cal and Am logistics bonuses. Presto,tactical equipment. Without nerfing others. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven Back and Forth 1225	Posted - 2015.03.12 21:05:00 - [1563] - Quote Also, not surprising. The only thing in hotfix echo that could be construed a logistics role buff (the equiment carried amount buff) even somewhat... Didn't go through? At least fully? Proto hives carried amount still 3 (gauged 4). Adv carried amount 6. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 920	Posted - 2015.03.12 21:21:00 - [1564] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I'm just going to take a run at the last page or so, there's new input in- HP- This a given (evidently), we need more, agreed. Sidearms- Leave my AmLogi alone and give one to my Cal. And cpu for that Cal, btw. Slot Parity- I'm still a no on this, IMO slot differences between Logi and Assault frames reinforce not just the differences in the suits' roles but also in their fitting needs. Which is a good thing. Capacitors- **** no. Never. We already have Bandwidth which limits how much eq we can use at once, as well as fixed nanite counts which limit the output of hives AND hard cooldowns after use for our active equipment. For ex. even if I don't scan an area for the entire time that I could (snapshot) my scanner still becomes inactive and cools for the full cooldown period. This is functionally superior to gameplay than a capacitor system that would allow me to "pepper" an area with "snapshot scans" almost ceaslessly but for the momentary gap in between while the capacitor "recharges" or having a "capacitor" fueled bottomless well to spam CoreNades from. Bandwidth Avail Meter Visibility- Totally overdue, belongs in the HUD. That it wasn't included in some fashion at the point of BW rollout speaks volumes about the lack of full idea vetting at the development level. Not to crack too hard on Ratt/CCP, but wtf ppl? How did you not realize the need for that AND after posting the idea and the deployment intent how did you ignore the droves of players that pointed out the need for one? Bandwidth in general never should have been released without it. I think thats it, flame away! I think you and I have a different understanding of how capacitors might work, because refilling nades is wack! I believe the capacitor would work with active and infinite equipment. Bandwidth takes care of product placement. But should broadcasting cut into capacitor energies? A little I think. Bandwidth just means we have the availability to maintain communication. Sending that signal is something else. Active modules (future) and active equipment like the scanner, reptool, and cloak (shield bubble, miasma bubble etc, in possible future) will have an effect on the capacitor, each will take a sustained portion. Maybe even weapons or the additions to weapons in the future. While each item has its own power-source or workings it needs to connected to the suit to work. But their initial activation and possible sustained activation may drain resources. So if there is a capacitor of 50 for a logi and a Scanner takes 20 upon activation with a recharge time of 3 per second once it is drained the scanner just wont work unti there are enough resources available. whether that be 1 scanner or 4. Meanwhile if a reptool took 15 to activate it would be a new formula to decide to scan and then rep or decide that 2 scans were needed and wait for the ability to rep. Maybe it's a buffer with current CPU so that running a high capacitor suit meant keeping all equiped stuff at a low cpu level, meaning that to have a super scanner one could wear very little in the way of gear. I'm not saying its perfect, I'm just saying that it stops the scan spam with a soft solution. Obviously peppering is a possibility but if it took 20 regardless it may not be worth it. Yeah....what can I say? I am steadfastly opposed to every rendition of capacitor addition I've seen so far, between bandwidth, nanite limits and already existing active equipment cooldowns capacitance is a redundant limiter that I for one am not interested in ever having to deal with. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 920	Posted - 2015.03.12 21:39:00 - [1565] - Quote Meee One wrote: How about a new variant of hives and uplinks? All capacitor based. Instead of hives being infinite,how about a 'tactical' version whose refills are capacitor based? Hives: Throw down a hive. Arm cloak/RE detonation prompt comes up to turn it on/off. Press the button. Sends out a pulses to refill allies. Can be done until capacitor runs out,but it does refill. Benefits: -'infinite' refills -Invisible to scans while not active Drawbacks: -lower amount deployed at a time (max 1) Uplinks: Throw down an uplink. Arm cloak/RE detonation prompt comes up to turn it on/off. Press the button. Allows respawns. Can be done until capacitor runs out,but it does refill. Benefits: -'infinite' spawns -Invisible to scans while not active Drawbacks: -low spawn amount (3-5) Then,apply Cal and Am logistics bonuses. Presto,tactical equipment. Without nerfing others. Thank You but No Thank You. Nanite limits are fine. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 1390	Posted - 2015.03.12 22:41:00 - [1566] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Also, not surprising. The only thing in hotfix echo that could be construed a logistics role buff (the equiment carried amount buff) even somewhat... Didn't go through? At least fully? Proto hives carried amount still 3 (gauged 4). Adv carried amount 6. I mean, yes, it buffs the adv hives. A lot. But still. I view it as a nerf. All suits can now carry a shitton of equipment. Scouts have hives and links for days. This makes the need for Logis moot. Two Scouts, 2 Assaults, a Heavy and a Logi will have more than enough equipment to last an entire match. Logis should be the only ones that can carry enough equipment to last a whole match, imho... Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven Back and Forth 1227	Posted - 2015.03.13 00:15:00 - [1567] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Also, not surprising. The only thing in hotfix echo that could be construed a logistics role buff (the equiment carried amount buff) even somewhat... Didn't go through? At least fully? Proto hives carried amount still 3 (gauged 4). Adv carried amount 6. I mean, yes, it buffs the adv hives. A lot. But still. I view it as a nerf. All suits can now carry a shitton of equipment. Scouts have hives and links for days. This makes the need for Logis moot. Two Scouts, 2 Assaults, a Heavy and a Logi will have more than enough equipment to last an entire match. Logis should be the only ones that can carry enough equipment to last a whole match, imho... Can be viewed as a nerf too, absolutely, I simply implied some people would call it a logistics buff. And even then... the fact that it didn't affect proto hives... when logis are the ones most likely to carry proto equipment... le sigh. I am hoping it was unintentional, but I am not holding my breath. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7550	Posted - 2015.03.13 00:26:00 - [1568] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Scouts have hives and links for days. Bandwidth (Scout v Logi) STD - 6 v 20 ADV - 9 v 28 PRO - 12 v 36 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 1390	Posted - 2015.03.13 04:04:00 - [1569] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Scouts have hives and links for days. Bandwidth (Scout v Logi) STD - 6 v 20 ADV - 9 v 28 PRO - 12 v 36 Keyword "have". Doesn't mean they can all be deployed at the same time. The amount of carried equipment is equal no matter the suit. This degrades the Logistics role, imo. Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
DJINN Jecture CANNIBALS RISING Dark Taboo 269	Posted - 2015.03.13 13:35:00 - [1570] - Quote xTheSiLLyRaBBiTx wrote: 2 Points: Bandwidth Visibilty & Nanohive WP output increase. As of right now, players have to try to puzzle together what active equipment they can and can't have on the field pending upon which suit. You can imagine the confusion that can take place when suits maybe switched out at fast pace, one could lose track of what will be lost vs what will be sustained. Visually, having the BW capacitor in the HUD/cluster. I feel that if the player could see on each suit the actual capacity of active equipment bandwith, it could be a very valuable tool to the Logi, as well as any other suit playable. This pont has been on my mind since the patch was instated. i.e. Proto amarr Logi having a 36 max BW would display something like 36/36 after I place 6 uplinks (4BW each), followed by one allotek nanohive (6BW each) simultaneously. This would be max capacity. Now, switching off to a min Logi (32BW); my first link would pop due to the FIFO [first in first out] laws. This would regulate back to 32/32 max, visibly descending or rising based on suit preference. Another Idea has to do with the Cal Logi. As of right now it is still not a viable contender to call upon like its three racial peers. With the equipment buff giving a slight edge on the Cal logi, I feel that a WP buff would be sufficient from the standard +10. Thanks for pointing this out. I hate losing equipment off the field when I switch between Logi and Heavy ...its not right. Bandwidth indicators needed please. *--I am a Free Agent for Hire--*

DJINN Jecture CANNIBALS RISING Dark Taboo 269	Posted - 2015.03.13 13:37:00 - [1571] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Scouts have hives and links for days. Bandwidth (Scout v Logi) STD - 6 v 20 ADV - 9 v 28 PRO - 12 v 36 Keyword "have". Doesn't mean they can all be deployed at the same time. The amount of carried equipment is equal no matter the suit. This degrades the Logistics role, imo. This tells me scouts need more bandwidth. *--I am a Free Agent for Hire--*
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7563	Posted - 2015.03.13 13:58:00 - [1572] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: This tells me scouts need more bandwidth. We don't want Scouts stepping on the Logi's toes. We do want Scouts to actually use their class bonus and run cloak. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7563	Posted - 2015.03.13 14:07:00 - [1573] - Quote Off topic for just a 'bit: Changed my mind about the Active Scanner Overhaul I'd previously proposed to you guys. Reducing cooldown would worsen today's permascan problems. In my humble opinion, we need to find a way to make Active Scanning more of an active effort and less "always on". Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Gyn Wallace Ready to Play 295	Posted - 2015.03.13 16:11:00 - [1574] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Off topic for just a 'bit: ... Reducing cooldown would very likely worsen today's problems with permascan. ... This is the wrong place to complain about your invented "problem." Again with the distractions... The simple truth is that there is nothing OP about the most precise scans having a small chance of picking up the stealthiest scouts. For you to suggest that scans are OP in the current system, where the most precise scans have ZERO chance of picking up the stealthiest scouts, simply is not reasonable. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7574	Posted - 2015.03.13 16:35:00 - [1575] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Off topic for just a 'bit: ... Reducing cooldown would very likely worsen today's problems with permascan. ... This is the wrong place to complain about your invented "problem." Again with the distractions... The simple truth is that there is nothing OP about the most precise scans having a small chance of picking up the stealthiest scouts. For you to suggest that scans are OP in the current system, where the most precise scans have ZERO chance of picking up the stealthiest scouts, simply is not reasonable. Over the past couple years, I've pointed out dozens of balance issues here on the forums. I did not invent a single one of them, and pretty much every single one I've pointed out was eventually addressed and resolved. I don't waste my time making stuff up, and I don't appreciate the implication that I would. When there's a problem in what I consider to be my "department" or area of expertise, I do everything I can to fully understand the problem and come up with ways to fix the problem. I'd like to think that Cross would do exactly same. Scans need work. Cross needs to know that scans need work. Whether or not you remain to be convinced is of no consequence. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 921	Posted - 2015.03.13 17:12:00 - [1576] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Off topic for just a 'bit: ... Reducing cooldown would very likely worsen today's problems with permascan. ... This is the wrong place to complain about your invented "problem." Again with the distractions... The simple truth is that there is nothing OP about the most precise scans having a small chance of picking up the stealthiest scouts. For you to suggest that scans are OP in the current system, where the most precise scans have ZERO chance of picking up the stealthiest scouts, simply is not reasonable. Over the past couple years, I've pointed out dozens of balance issues here on the forums. I did not invent a single one of them, and pretty much every single one I've pointed out was eventually addressed and resolved. I don't waste my time making stuff up, and I don't appreciate your implication that I would. When there's a problem my department, I do everything I can to study and fully understand the problem. Until the problem is resolved, I brainstorm with other subject matter experts to hammer out and vet various solutions. I'd like to think that Cross would do exactly same when there's a problem in his department. 7 Scans need work. Cross needs to know that scans need work. Whether or not you remain to be convinced (or intend to remain willfully ignorant of the facts) is of no consequence. Scans still need work. Maybe Cross has (along with most of us) realized you for the "yahoo" you are in here so he subsequently ignores your "input". Check your numbers dude, you're quoting at least one error and have repeatedly. Doesn't exactly help your cause when anyone who actually uses or does what you are describing can look at your numbers, and see the error(s). Scouts, especially now with the addition of super-hops, need to have viable counters. This includes scans. This is what we have now, after much prolonged kicking and screaming from scouts such as yourself. If, as you've begun to claim now, your real interest is for the medium frames ('think of the mediums 'cries) then go start a thread about medium frame profiles. Meanwhile, this venue here, for the millionth time, is NOT an appropriate place for your ever-continuous misinformation campaign. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7579	Posted - 2015.03.13 17:18:00 - [1577] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Check your numbers dude, you're quoting at least one error and have repeatedly. Doesn't exactly help your cause when anyone who actually uses or does what you are describing can look at your numbers, and see the error(s). So ... there's an error in my numbers but you don't know where it is? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Gyn Wallace Ready to Play 296	Posted - 2015.03.13 18:00:00 - [1578] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Again with the distractions... The simple truth is that there is nothing OP about the most precise scans having a small chance of picking up the stealthiest scouts. For you to suggest that scans are OP in the current system, where the most precise scans have ZERO chance of picking up the stealthiest scouts, simply is not reasonable. ... I don't waste my time making stuff up or "inventing problems", and I don't appreciate your implication that I would. ... Scans still need work. Oh but you have invented a fake problem, the "permascan." I'm not implying that you're inventing problems. I'm being explicit. Scans aren't OP. If they still need work, they need a buff, so at least one scanner model can detect the stealthiest scouts, briefly, in a narrow arc, at short range. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7607	Posted - 2015.03.13 18:11:00 - [1579] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Oh but you have invented a fake problem, the "permascan." I'm not implying that you're inventing problems. I'm being explicit. If you don't think that permascan is real, change your battle server to Americas, queue up for Ambush and wait for your turn to be pubstomped by Nyain San. That's one squad with one GalLogi. Imagine what 3 could do. Far more effective than any EWAR Scout ever was. Far less risk. Far greater reward. But 300HP EWAR Scouts were "OP" and GalLogi scans are "Fine". Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Gyn Wallace Ready to Play 296	Posted - 2015.03.13 18:12:00 - [1580] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The low-risk, massive-reward 21dB scans pose the bigger balance problem; they should be the priority fix. That sentence, in a nutshell, is why you read like a troll. You're being absurd. You have an option to fit for completely avoiding 21dB scans 100% of the time. Where's my option for a CHANCE to scan the stealthiest scouts before they one-shot-kill me? That you would complain about assault suits failing to avoid scans shows that good game balance isn't your concern; buffing stealthy play styles is. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7607	Posted - 2015.03.13 18:24:00 - [1581] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: The low-risk, massive-reward 21dB scans pose the bigger balance problem; they should be the priority fix. That sentence, in a nutshell, is why you read like a troll. You're being absurd. You have an option to fit for completely avoiding 21dB scans 100% of the time. Where's my option for a CHANCE to scan the stealthiest scouts before they one-shot-kill me? That Scout has to be within 2m to one shot you. You already have your chance. Now add a Myo and hop out of his range when he enters your 8m TacNet inner ring. Gyn Wallace wrote: That you would complain about assault suits failing to avoid scans shows that good game balance isn't your concern; buffing stealthy play styles is. 20dB recon scout passive scans were labeled "OP Wallhacks" * They showed enemy orientation * They were always on (when decloaked) * They were shared with squad Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Gyn Wallace Ready to Play 296	Posted - 2015.03.13 18:25:00 - [1582] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: If you don't think that permascan is real, change your battle server to Americas, queue up for an Ambush match and wait for your turn to be pubstomped by Nyain San. You're nuts. In your head, you can't separate knowing where the enemy is and obliterating them. Guess what. The guys getting stomped by Nyain San, can and sometimes do scan Nyain San just as much, which is why your pointing to scans as the "problem" is entirely in your head. Or did you mean that Nyan San uses so many unscannable scouts that the people they're stomping can't see them coming, because none of their scanners can pick up the stealthiest scouts? Contrary to your obsession with a fake problem, the real problem is that a logi can scan the enemy, see them coming, and be so ineffective when they arrive. The real problem is that EVEN WITH knowing where some the enemy is and the direction from which they're approaching, one class in particular is weaker than the others when the enemy arrives. That's the priority fix that's needed. That's why your pretending that something as stupid as enabling assaults to duck scans is a higher priority, in this thread, is such a trollish thing to write. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Gyn Wallace Ready to Play 299	Posted - 2015.03.13 18:32:00 - [1583] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Where's my option for a CHANCE to scan the stealthiest scouts before they one-shot-kill me? That Scout has to be within 2m to one shot you. You already have your chance. Now add a Myo and hop out of his range when he enters your 8m TacNet inner ring. See the bold words "to scan" in my question? Ignoring them is why your response doesn't answer the question. The correct answer is: in the current system I have no chance to scan the stealthiest scouts at all. How unsurprising that you avoided answering the question and instead distracted from the weakness of current scans or the strength of stealthy play. Adipem Nothi wrote: 20dB recon scout passive scans .. More irrelevant distractions... I get it. You wanted run the stealthiest and best detecting class. You lost your "I win" button. I'm sorry, but that's no excuse for making terrible arguments in the wrong thread. I simply don't believe that you're dumb enough to have missed the phrase "to scan" in my question above, or that you were ignorant of the problem with stacking the best detection and stealth in one class. So why are you making such patently bad arguments here? In THIS thread? The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7612	Posted - 2015.03.13 18:38:00 - [1584] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If you don't think that permascan is real, change your battle server to Americas, queue up for an Ambush match and wait for your turn to be pubstomped by Nyain San. You're nuts. In your head, you can't separate knowing where the enemy is and obliterating them. Guess what. The guys getting stomped by Nyain San, can and sometimes do scan Nyain San just as much, which is why your pointing to scans as the "problem" is entirely in your head. Or did you mean that Nyan San uses so many unscannable scouts that the people they're stomping can't see them coming, because none of their scanners can pick up the stealthiest scouts? Contrary to your obsession with a fake problem, the real problem is that a logi can scan the enemy, see them coming, and be so ineffective when they arrive. The real problem is that EVEN WITH knowing where some the enemy is and the direction from which they're approaching, one class in particular is weaker than the others when the enemy arrives. That's the priority fix that's needed. That's why your pretending that something as stupid as enabling assaults to duck scans is a higher priority, in this thread, is such a trollish thing to write. So GalLogi permascan is fine because GalLogis are squishy and die fast? That's the same exact argument 300HP EWAR Scouts made. But Zatara wasn't persuaded. And their high-risk, low-reward passive scans were "OP Wallhacks". Today's GalLogis do as good of a job as any EWAR Scout ever did. And they have it far easier. You can spam your scans from 100-200m away, from behind friendly lines, with literally 2x to 4x the HP of an EWAR Scout (that's called low risk). And your results are shared team-wide! (that's call high-reward). And yet you whine. PS: Nyain San stomps Ambush matches with Assaults and a GalLogi. That's been the case for months. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 921	Posted - 2015.03.13 18:49:00 - [1585] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: [quote=el OPERATOR] So ... there's an error in my numbers but you don't know where it is? Not doing your homework for you is not the same as not knowing how to do your homework for you. Truth is you have a bad conclusion because it's based on bad data. Pointing out that you have bad data is all I need to say. If you aren't capable of vetting your own info, that you choose to present, that you choose to use to justify your conclusion and try spreading anywhere you can find an ear for it while it's bad isn't my problem, it's yours. My problem is that for a guy who claims to be such an infallible resource of all things broken your conclusions are crap, because your data is crap and you're too invested in the convincing of people of the legitimacy of your [bad]conclusion to realize it. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7613	Posted - 2015.03.13 18:50:00 - [1586] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: [quote=el OPERATOR] So ... there's an error in my numbers but you don't know where it is? Not doing your homework for you is not the same as not knowing how to do your homework for you. Truth is you have a bad conclusion because it's based on bad data. Pointing out that you have bad data is all I need to say. If you aren't capable of vetting your own info, that you choose to present, that you choose to use to justify your conclusion and try spreading anywhere you can find an ear for it while it's bad isn't my problem, it's yours. My problem is that for a guy who claims to be such an infallible resource of all things broken your conclusions are crap, because your data is crap and you're too invested in the convincing of people of the legitimacy of your [bad]conclusion to realize it. Says the guy who didn't know that 21dB scans existed until last week. You'll have to pardon me for not taking you at your word on this. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 921	Posted - 2015.03.13 19:05:00 - [1587] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: My "contentiousness" stems from my experience in you running in here making claims ... Now this I can relate to. Nothing quite like a yahoo popping into the Scout thread to tell everyone there that they're doing it wrong. Guess its entirely possible that I'm being that yahoo here in your thread. Then again, it is also entirely possible that talking EWAR balance to GalLogis is like talking AV balance to a room full of Pilots. I'd like to think this debate of ours here is yahoo-free. Whether or not we agree on anything at the end of the day, we've been relatively good at keeping cool heads and getting the facts and figures straight. Confirmed: You are a yahoo. /your steamies you keep trying to float in this thread Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 921	Posted - 2015.03.13 19:07:00 - [1588] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: [quote=el OPERATOR] So ... there's an error in my numbers but you don't know where it is? Not doing your homework for you is not the same as not knowing how to do your homework for you. Truth is you have a bad conclusion because it's based on bad data. Pointing out that you have bad data is all I need to say. If you aren't capable of vetting your own info, that you choose to present, that you choose to use to justify your conclusion and try spreading anywhere you can find an ear for it while it's bad isn't my problem, it's yours. My problem is that for a guy who claims to be such an infallible resource of all things broken your conclusions are crap, because your data is crap and you're too invested in the convincing of people of the legitimacy of your [bad]conclusion to realize it. Says the guy who didn't know until last week that 21dB scans existed. Would you like me to find the post? You'll have to pardon me for not taking you at your word on this. idc what you take so long as you take it out of here. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7614	Posted - 2015.03.13 19:14:00 - [1589] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: What you have there is me being polite. You spent two weeks debating and defending GalLogi scan precision without knowing the precision of GalLogi scans. Or caring enough to even look it up. "Oh. So the 200m / 90 degree scanner is 21dB. Hmm. I can see how you have a point now. That is pretty ridiculous. This whole time, I was defending the 15dB scanner. It has a huge cooldown. Didn't realize you were talking about the others." ^ Would've been nice to get something like this from you. But instead, I get Spkr. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 923	Posted - 2015.03.13 22:00:00 - [1590] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: ... facts and figures ... What you have there is me being polite. You spent two weeks debating and defending GalLogi scan precision without knowing the precision of GalLogi scans. Or caring enough to even look it up. "Oh. So the 200m / 90 degree scanner is 21dB. Hmm. This whole time, I was defending the Focused scanner ... the one with the narrow angle and huge cooldown; it couldn't possibly permascan anything, so I thought you were making stuff up. My bad. " Would've been nice to get something like this from you. But instead, I get a 1.7-Spkr-like "everything is still fine ... go away ". And now you want to call me out on non-specific "bad data" ... LOL So we can add to the continuing list of errors of yours here the idea that there's a "debate" going. Your conclusion is flawed on several levels, most of which have been explained multiple times, in multiple ways by multiple people to you. There is nothing in what you've raised as "input" to debate; The conclusion is worthless, debating it is just as worthless. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Gyn Wallace Ready to Play 301	Posted - 2015.03.14 01:28:00 - [1591] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: You're nuts. In your head, you can't separate knowing where the enemy is and obliterating them. Guess what. The guys getting stomped by Nyain San, can and sometimes do scan Nyain San just as much, which is why your pointing to scans as the "problem" is entirely in your head. Or did you mean that Nyan San uses so many unscannable scouts that the people they're stomping can't see them coming, because none of their scanners can pick up the stealthiest scouts? Contrary to your obsession with a fake problem, the real problem is that a logi can scan the enemy, see them coming, and be so ineffective when they arrive. The real problem is that EVEN WITH knowing where some the enemy is and the direction from which they're approaching, one class in particular is weaker than the others when the enemy arrives. That's the priority fix that's needed. That's why your pretending that something as stupid as enabling assaults to duck scans is a higher priority, in this thread, is such a trollish thing to write. So GalLogi ["permascan"] is fine because ... Literally nothing you wrote was responsive to any part of my post that you quoted. Nothing. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7625	Posted - 2015.03.14 01:29:00 - [1592] - Quote Pretty clear I'm wasting my time here. Good luck getting yourselves buffed. o/ Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 923	Posted - 2015.03.14 02:16:00 - [1593] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Pretty clear I'm wasting my time here. Good luck getting yourselves buffed. o/ You're welcome back anytime you have something worthwhile or relevant to discussion in here. If it's a QQ, veiled threat or another completely misleading and misrepresentative of reality conclusion based on incomplete or otherwise incorrect data you'll be better off refining your salespitch in GD. GL w/the myfib hooey o7 Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 437	Posted - 2015.03.14 07:30:00 - [1594] - Quote I will admit that I haven't read the 80 pages so apologies if this has already been proposed, But how about give logis a much higher base health but have a 50-75%% fitting penalty on extenders/plates this would allow logis to specialise in other areas Ewar/Speed/hacking without being paper thin ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
DJINN Jecture CANNIBALS RISING Dark Taboo 269	Posted - 2015.03.14 08:09:00 - [1595] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: This tells me scouts need more bandwidth. We don't want Scouts stepping on the Logi's toes. We do want Scouts to actually use their class bonus and run cloak. PS: Played lots of Ambush yesterday. Noticed fewer heavies but far more Logis than before. Even a few Battle Logi (had to plug one of 'em 3x with a Creodron SG!). Not sure what's up, but a drop in Scouts and an increase in Logis certainly isn't what I expected to see. Really? You worry about a scout being able to deploy all equipment at once seriously? I would be more worried that they can't . If you think about it, a scout is meant to shape the battlefield for incoming forces, drop links and hives appropriately or eliminate sentries around a perimeter. Usually its a struggle to do both tasks and even harder when half your equipment disappears when you drop it for the team running or spawning in behind you. The Logi being slower by far than the scouts follows the main force, propping up the team with additional links, hives and reps. There is no stepping on toes here just plain common sense, or battle logic. In the early days of the biggest nerf of the game when Logis took a huge hit, we all used the scouts to fill the gap because why not, now with the slight changes to the Logi to return it to some of its proper glory, many have gone back to using the Logi, and moreover its the best suit to make WP in. I can make, out of one use of each equipment slot, 130wp from one spawn, one rep cycle, one revive in an ambush. The scout is close but still misses out on a third or more of the WP gain based on the same items. Yesterday I saw a commando pull out a rep tool on a logibro...OMG a Commando Logi!! Watch out guys limit his bandwidth! *--I am a Free Agent for Hire--*
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1572	Posted - 2015.03.14 08:27:00 - [1596] - Quote So,CCP read my idea about increasing carried amout. (Yay!) But they ignored the part about it being logistics exclusive,to prevent other suits from becoming too autonomous. And still partially needing logistics support. I feel personally insulted by that. As if CCP said "we just want to buff nonequipment specialists (assaults) again,screw you equipment specialists (logistics)" Then they prominently gave me the bird. Now let's talk about myos shall we? For assaults with their high eHP and good mobility,as well as scouts with their stealth and high mobility,these are a boon. What about heavies? Meh And low mobility,low eHP logistics? Bad Well,for 1/2 of all logistics. The shield based ones. Amarr and Gal can possibly use them to some effect,i say possibly because of their low mobility.(And sacrifice little tank to do so,except ADV Gal they're boned with 0 highs) Min and Cal are screwed. Mostly Cal. Min rep range max is 30-32m.(Boundless-Flux) ARs shoot further. Cal hive range max is 10-12m(?). ( i know it's not as far as an AR shoots) And as i've seen in some videos,assaults with 600+ armor can flit around like dainty butterflies.(He has 835 eHP yet can do acrobatics like that,imagine a sumo wrestler trying to do the uneven bars) Anyone remember F-1 rocket tanks? This seems awfully similar,no? But i digress. My point is,this is yet another dramatic buff for the killing sect,but not the support sect. Sure Min can fit them,but unlike weapons which can strike from 50-90ish m they are still effectively trapped in a 20m avg range. Cal can drop hives from higher up,yet because hives cannot be thrown like grenades or even REs () this limits their potential even more. Did i mention logistics low eHP? Yeah. So to sum up,killing has become more flexible and easy to do,and support has become even more dangerous and difficult. FFS CCP stop half-assing and give assaults 4 equipment,100% dampening,invisibility,and 3 weapons already. You've effectively gotten to the point where everyone in the logistics community can see you only care about assaults,and feign care for any other class. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1572	Posted - 2015.03.14 08:33:00 - [1597] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: This tells me scouts need more bandwidth. We don't want Scouts stepping on the Logi's toes. We do want Scouts to actually use their class bonus and run cloak. PS: Played lots of Ambush yesterday. Noticed fewer heavies but far more Logis than before. Even a few Battle Logi (had to plug one of 'em 3x with a Creodron SG!). Not sure what's up, but a drop in Scouts and an increase in Logis certainly isn't what I expected to see. Really? You worry about a scout being able to deploy all equipment at once seriously? I would be more worried that they can't . If you think about it, a scout is meant to shape the battlefield for incoming forces, drop links and hives appropriately or eliminate sentries around a perimeter. Usually its a struggle to do both tasks and even harder when half your equipment disappears when you drop it for the team running or spawning in behind you. The Logi being slower by far than the scouts follows the main force, propping up the team with additional links, hives and reps. There is no stepping on toes here just plain common sense, or battle logic. In the early days of the biggest nerf of the game when Logis took a huge hit, we all used the scouts to fill the gap because why not, now with the slight changes to the Logi to return it to some of its proper glory, many have gone back to using the Logi, and moreover its the best suit to make WP in. I can make, out of one use of each equipment slot, 130wp from one spawn, one rep cycle, one revive in an ambush. The scout is close but still misses out on a third or more of the WP gain based on the same items. Yesterday I saw a commando pull out a rep tool on a logibro...OMG a Commando Logi!! Watch out guys limit his bandwidth! You close your mouth you logi wannabe. Commandos should've gotten a second equipment slot,not scouts. They trade eHP and thousands of rounds in a lost heavy weapon,and even slots. Scouts trade nothing. Scouts are scrubs,and are supposed to suck with equipment. You are supposed to be the last resort niche suit,not the go-to first deploy suit. Learn your place. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
DJINN Jecture CANNIBALS RISING Dark Taboo 269	Posted - 2015.03.14 08:41:00 - [1598] - Quote Meee One wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: This tells me scouts need more bandwidth. We don't want Scouts stepping on the Logi's toes. We do want Scouts to actually use their class bonus and run cloak. PS: Played lots of Ambush yesterday. Noticed fewer heavies but far more Logis than before. Even a few Battle Logi (had to plug one of 'em 3x with a Creodron SG!). Not sure what's up, but a drop in Scouts and an increase in Logis certainly isn't what I expected to see. Really? You worry about a scout being able to deploy all equipment at once seriously? I would be more worried that they can't . If you think about it, a scout is meant to shape the battlefield for incoming forces, drop links and hives appropriately or eliminate sentries around a perimeter. Usually its a struggle to do both tasks and even harder when half your equipment disappears when you drop it for the team running or spawning in behind you. The Logi being slower by far than the scouts follows the main force, propping up the team with additional links, hives and reps. There is no stepping on toes here just plain common sense, or battle logic. In the early days of the biggest nerf of the game when Logis took a huge hit, we all used the scouts to fill the gap because why not, now with the slight changes to the Logi to return it to some of its proper glory, many have gone back to using the Logi, and moreover its the best suit to make WP in. I can make, out of one use of each equipment slot, 130wp from one spawn, one rep cycle, one revive in an ambush. The scout is close but still misses out on a third or more of the WP gain based on the same items. Yesterday I saw a commando pull out a rep tool on a logibro...OMG a Commando Logi!! Watch out guys limit his bandwidth! You close your mouth you logi wannabe. Commandos should've gotten a second equipment slot,not scouts. They trade eHP and thousands of rounds in a lost heavy weapon,and even slots. Scouts trade nothing. Scouts are scrubs,and are supposed to suck with equipment. You are supposed to be the last resort niche suit,not the go-to first deploy suit. Learn your place. Whelp, I am a CB Vet Pro Logi. Its not my fault he pulled out a rep tool and it was entertaining. I play all the roles because the points are invested. I know the classes and have done pro logi and pro scout as well as pro heavy. You have an issue with scouts? Its not an discussion about what to nerf in other classes but scouts are able to play a viable support role. It is this issue of not being viable with low bandwidth that causes them to be used as front line killers and fricken jack rabbits with explosives lately. Never mind the fact that even in an explosive deploying role they can't put out 3 explosives without one destroying itself!! *--I am a Free Agent for Hire--*
DJINN Jecture CANNIBALS RISING Dark Taboo 269	Posted - 2015.03.14 08:45:00 - [1599] - Quote Meee One wrote: ... TLDR ... FFS CCP stop half-assing and give assaults 4 equipment,100% dampening,invisibility,and 3 weapons already. You've effectively gotten to the point where everyone in the logistics community can see you only care about assaults,and feign care for any other class. QQ much? *--I am a Free Agent for Hire--*
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1572	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:01:00 - [1600] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Meee One wrote: ... TLDR ... FFS CCP stop half-assing and give assaults 4 equipment,100% dampening,invisibility,and 3 weapons already. You've effectively gotten to the point where everyone in the logistics community can see you only care about assaults,and feign care for any other class. QQ much? Well, if it looks like cow poop and smells like cow poop,it's probably cow poop. Amirite? I hate grey. The whole 'every class is important' malarkey. Then through their own actions they show that only 1 class is important,assaults. Actions speak louder than words. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.

Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1572	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:07:00 - [1601] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Whelp, I am a CB Vet Pro Logi. Its not my fault he pulled out a rep tool and it was entertaining. I play all the roles because the points are invested. I know the classes and have done pro logi and pro scout as well as pro heavy. You have an issue with scouts? Its not an discussion about what to nerf in other classes but scouts are able to play a viable support role. It is this issue of not being viable with low bandwidth that causes them to be used as front line killers and fricken jack rabbits with explosives lately. Never mind the fact that even in an explosive deploying role they can't put out 3 explosives without one destroying itself!! Scouts were given low bandwidth,because they're supposed to suck with equipment. No other class is supposed to compete effectively with logistics in equipment. Except maybe commandos. Scouts were given low rep rate because they're supposed to suck at direct attacks. No other class is supposed to compete effectively with assaults in directly attacking. Except maybe commandos. Scouts are designed for stealth,not deployment. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
DJINN Jecture CANNIBALS RISING Dark Taboo 272	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:08:00 - [1602] - Quote Meee One wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Meee One wrote: ... TLDR ... FFS CCP stop half-assing and give assaults 4 equipment,100% dampening,invisibility,and 3 weapons already. You've effectively gotten to the point where everyone in the logistics community can see you only care about assaults,and feign care for any other class. QQ much? Well, if it looks like cow poop and smells like cow poop,it's probably cow poop. Amirite? I hate grey. The whole 'every class is important' malarkey. Then through their own actions they show that only 1 class is important,assaults. Actions speak louder than words. Have you tried the other classes at all? Do you try to do other things rather than just Point *** or are you a "dedicated" logi only guy who hates it when every thing changes on you that you like about a class so you QQ about it because "it's not fair"? Respect CCP, at least until you finish making your own FPS that is a Playstation Exclusive and has at least as many players and you have to struggle with balance issues. Tell you what how about just don't brag first then whine second. --I am a Free Agent for Hire--**
DJINN Jecture CANNIBALS RISING Dark Taboo 272	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:16:00 - [1603] - Quote Meee One wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Whelp, I am a CB Vet Pro Logi. Its not my fault he pulled out a rep tool and it was entertaining. I play all the roles because the points are invested. I know the classes and have done pro logi and pro scout as well as pro heavy. You have an issue with scouts? Its not an discussion about what to nerf in other classes but scouts are able to play a viable support role. It is this issue of not being viable with low bandwidth that causes them to be used as front line killers and fricken jack rabbits with explosives lately. Never mind the fact that even in an explosive deploying role they can't put out 3 explosives without one destroying itself!! Scouts were given low bandwidth,because they're supposed to suck with equipment. No other class is supposed to compete effectively with logistics in equipment. Except maybe commandos. Scouts were given low rep rate because they're supposed to suck at direct attacks. No other class is supposed to compete effectively with assaults in directly attacking. Except maybe commandos. Scouts are designed for stealth,not deployment. That's a rather narrow view. Who is to say that the scout shouldn't use both their bonuses and both of their equipment slots for equipment? The shimmer weave scouts have now can hardly be described as a cloak, nor is it stealthy when it glows on your screen. If you look at the current Meta, most scouts appear to not use cloaks or just in limited capacity, and rather just run around with explosives and hack objectives, shotty everything to death. Their role needs diversity not a one fit does it situation the bandwidth imposes. *--I am a Free Agent for Hire--*
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1572	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:18:00 - [1604] - Quote I was just wondering... Why do flux grenades destroy equipment? I mean,hives say in the description that they are shielded from outside interference.(AKA flux grenades,flux OBs) Equipment has 2 life bars. An empty shield bar. A full life bar. Why do flux grenades destroy armor on equipment yet armor on dropsuits isn't scratched? Why doesn't equipment have shields despite having a shield bar? Why is do only REs refill at depots and hives? Why do REs explode instead of popping harmlessly? -I've never seen a popped hive expel all its contents to refill as i have seen REs do theirs to kill Why did scouts get 2 equipment slots instead of commandos? Why do scouts still have 2 equipment slots? Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1572	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:21:00 - [1605] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Meee One wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Meee One wrote: ... TLDR ... FFS CCP stop half-assing and give assaults 4 equipment,100% dampening,invisibility,and 3 weapons already. You've effectively gotten to the point where everyone in the logistics community can see you only care about assaults,and feign care for any other class. QQ much? Well, if it looks like cow poop and smells like cow poop,it's probably cow poop. Amirite? I hate grey. The whole 'every class is important' malarkey. Then through their own actions they show that only 1 class is important,assaults. Actions speak louder than words. Have you tried the other classes at all? Do you try to do other things rather than just Point ***** or are you a "dedicated" logi only guy who hates it when every thing changes on you that you like about a class so you QQ about it because "it's not fair"? Respect CCP, at least until you finish making your own FPS that is a Playstation Exclusive and has at least as many players and you have to struggle with balance issues. Tell you what how about just don't brag first then whine second. >Respect known liars Yeah,two words... 'lazor focused' Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
DJINN Jecture CANNIBALS RISING Dark Taboo 272	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:21:00 - [1606] - Quote Meee One wrote: I was just wondering... Why do flux grenades destroy equipment? I mean,hives say in the description that they are shielded from outside interference.(AKA flux grenades,flux OBs) Equipment has 2 life bars. An empty shield bar. A full life bar. Why do flux grenades destroy armor on equipment yet armor on dropsuits isn't scratched? Why doesn't equipment have shields despite having a shield bar? Why is do only REs refill at depots and hives? Why do REs explode instead of popping harmlessly? -I've never seen a popped hive expel all its contents to refill as i have seen REs do theirs to kill Why did scouts get 2 equipment slots instead of commandos? Why do scouts still have 2 equipment slots? [Warning Troll Bait] Because Rainbows were taken. Ever wonder if you can see beyond yourself? Ever Wonder if you have drunk enough of the juice yet? If you still wonder please Ignore my post right here and move on. Scouts have 2 equipment slots to allow for a support role ability. This abiity is Hindered by bandwidth limitations quite severely. *--I am a Free Agent for Hire--*
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1572	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:25:00 - [1607] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Meee One wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Whelp, I am a CB Vet Pro Logi. Its not my fault he pulled out a rep tool and it was entertaining. I play all the roles because the points are invested. I know the classes and have done pro logi and pro scout as well as pro heavy. You have an issue with scouts? Its not an discussion about what to nerf in other classes but scouts are able to play a viable support role. It is this issue of not being viable with low bandwidth that causes them to be used as front line killers and fricken jack rabbits with explosives lately. Never mind the fact that even in an explosive deploying role they can't put out 3 explosives without one destroying itself!! Scouts were given low bandwidth,because they're supposed to suck with equipment. No other class is supposed to compete effectively with logistics in equipment. Except maybe commandos. Scouts were given low rep rate because they're supposed to suck at direct attacks. No other class is supposed to compete effectively with assaults in directly attacking. Except maybe commandos. Scouts are designed for stealth,not deployment. That's a rather narrow view. Who is to say that the scout shouldn't use both their bonuses and both of their equipment slots for equipment? The shimmer weave scouts have now can hardly be described as a cloak, nor is it stealthy when it glows on your screen. If you look at the current Meta, most scouts appear to not use cloaks or just in limited capacity, and rather just run around with explosives and hack objectives, shotty everything to death. Their role needs diversity not a one fit does it situation the bandwidth imposes. Who's to say,you ask. CCP,i exclaim. Mid post,right above 'Quality over Quantity'. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1572	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:27:00 - [1608] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Meee One wrote: I was just wondering... Why do flux grenades destroy equipment? I mean,hives say in the description that they are shielded from outside interference.(AKA flux grenades,flux OBs) Equipment has 2 life bars. An empty shield bar. A full life bar. Why do flux grenades destroy armor on equipment yet armor on dropsuits isn't scratched? Why doesn't equipment have shields despite having a shield bar? Why is do only REs refill at depots and hives? Why do REs explode instead of popping harmlessly? -I've never seen a popped hive expel all its contents to refill as i have seen REs do theirs to kill Why did scouts get 2 equipment slots instead of commandos? Why do scouts still have 2 equipment slots? [Warning Troll Bait] Because Rainbows were taken. Ever wonder if you can see beyond yourself? Ever Wonder if you have drunk enough of the juice yet? If you still wonder please Ignore my post right here and move on. Scouts have 2 equipment slots to allow for a support role ability. This abiity is Hindered by bandwidth limitations quite severely. See my last post to 100% discredit your scouts for support bs. Are we done yet? Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
DJINN Jecture CANNIBALS RISING Dark Taboo 272	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:35:00 - [1609] - Quote Meee One wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Meee One wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Whelp, I am a CB Vet Pro Logi. Its not my fault he pulled out a rep tool and it was entertaining. I play all the roles because the points are invested. I know the classes and have done pro logi and pro scout as well as pro heavy. You have an issue with scouts? Its not an discussion about what to nerf in other classes but scouts are able to play a viable support role. It is this issue of not being viable with low bandwidth that causes them to be used as front line killers and fricken jack rabbits with explosives lately. Never mind the fact that even in an explosive deploying role they can't put out 3 explosives without one destroying itself!! Scouts were given low bandwidth,because they're supposed to suck with equipment. No other class is supposed to compete effectively with logistics in equipment. Except maybe commandos. Scouts were given low rep rate because they're supposed to suck at direct attacks. No other class is supposed to compete effectively with assaults in directly attacking. Except maybe commandos. Scouts are designed for stealth,not deployment. That's a rather narrow view. Who is to say that the scout shouldn't use both their bonuses and both of their equipment slots for equipment? The shimmer weave scouts have now can hardly be described as a cloak, nor is it stealthy when it glows on your screen. If you look at the current Meta, most scouts appear to not use cloaks or just in limited capacity, and rather just run around with explosives and hack objectives, shotty everything to death. Their role needs diversity not a one fit does it situation the bandwidth imposes. Who's to say,you ask. CCP,i exclaim. Mid post,right above 'Quality over Quantity'. Wow, consider that in the brief time you have been arguing with me if they should have more bandwidth you still haven't asked how much more and yet you claim CCP has said what you are saying and you are also calling them liars. I have a really hard time reading any of your posts. Note, I did not once specify that I want to run a scout Logi. Also note that equipment costs on bandwidth apply to the other suits you spawn into so if you deployed in a Logi, dropped links and hives then switched to your scout to go hack, all your equipment dies. Thats not Quality over Quantity that is a lack of needed bandwidth to be what you need to when you need to be it. Its even worse when you switch to a Heavy from a Logi. As much as you appear to rage, it doesn't change the fact that I believe there is an issue here that need addressing. *--I am a Free Agent for Hire--*
DJINN Jecture CANNIBALS RISING Dark Taboo 272	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:36:00 - [1610] - Quote Meee One wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Meee One wrote: I was just wondering... Why do flux grenades destroy equipment? I mean,hives say in the description that they are shielded from outside interference.(AKA flux grenades,flux OBs) Equipment has 2 life bars. An empty shield bar. A full life bar. Why do flux grenades destroy armor on equipment yet armor on dropsuits isn't scratched? Why doesn't equipment have shields despite having a shield bar? Why is do only REs refill at depots and hives? Why do REs explode instead of popping harmlessly? -I've never seen a popped hive expel all its contents to refill as i have seen REs do theirs to kill Why did scouts get 2 equipment slots instead of commandos? Why do scouts still have 2 equipment slots? [Warning Troll Bait] Because Rainbows were taken. Ever wonder if you can see beyond yourself? Ever Wonder if you have drunk enough of the juice yet? If you still wonder please Ignore my post right here and move on. Scouts have 2 equipment slots to allow for a support role ability. This abiity is Hindered by bandwidth limitations quite severely. See my last post to 100% discredit your scouts for support bs. Are we done yet? Nope, discredit implies that there is some degree of an argument, which in this case there is not. *--I am a Free Agent for Hire--*

Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1572	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:44:00 - [1611] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Meee One wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Meee One wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Whelp, I am a CB Vet Pro Logi. Its not my fault he pulled out a rep tool and it was entertaining. I play all the roles because the points are invested. I know the classes and have done pro logi and pro scout as well as pro heavy. You have an issue with scouts? Its not an discussion about what to nerf in other classes but scouts are able to play a viable support role. It is this issue of not being viable with low bandwidth that causes them to be used as front line killers and fricken jack rabbits with explosives lately. Never mind the fact that even in an explosive deploying role they can't put out 3 explosives without one destroying itself!! Scouts were given low bandwidth,because they're supposed to suck with equipment. No other class is supposed to compete effectively with logistics in equipment. Except maybe commandos. Scouts were given low rep rate because they're supposed to suck at direct attacks. No other class is supposed to compete effectively with assaults in directly attacking. Except maybe commandos. Scouts are designed for stealth,not deployment. That's a rather narrow view. Who is to say that the scout shouldn't use both their bonuses and both of their equipment slots for equipment? The shimmer weave scouts have now can hardly be described as a cloak, nor is it stealthy when it glows on your screen. If you look at the current Meta, most scouts appear to not use cloaks or just in limited capacity, and rather just run around with explosives and hack objectives, shotty everything to death. Their role needs diversity not a one fit does it situation the bandwidth imposes. Who's to say,you ask. CCP,i exclaim. Mid post,right above 'Quality over Quantity'. Wow, consider that in the brief time you have been arguing with me if they should have more bandwidth you still haven't asked how much more and yet you claim CCP has said what you are saying and you are also calling them liars. I have a really hard time reading any of your posts. Note, I did not once specify that I want to run a scout Logi. Also note that equipment costs on bandwidth apply to the other suits you spawn into so if you deployed in a Logi, dropped links and hives then switched to your scout to go hack, all your equipment dies. Thats not Quality over Quantity that is a lack of needed bandwidth to be what you need to when you need to be it. Its even worse when you switch to a Heavy from a Logi. As much as you appear to rage, it doesn't change the fact that I believe there is an issue here that need addressing. Wow,you can't read. Go back,and read the paragraph above 'Quality over quantity'. Above,not below,not beside. On top of. Oh yes i called them liars,but that doesn't change the fact they set the rules. You are a hypocrite,because you say 'respect CCP' and as soon as i link you to a post made by CCP to shut you up you write it off as bunk and worthless. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
DJINN Jecture CANNIBALS RISING Dark Taboo 272	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:49:00 - [1612] - Quote Meee One wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Meee One wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Meee One wrote: Scouts were given low bandwidth,because they're supposed to suck with equipment. No other class is supposed to compete effectively with logistics in equipment. Except maybe commandos. Scouts were given low rep rate because they're supposed to suck at direct attacks. No other class is supposed to compete effectively with assaults in directly attacking. Except maybe commandos. Scouts are designed for stealth,not deployment. That's a rather narrow view. Who is to say that the scout shouldn't use both their bonuses and both of their equipment slots for equipment? The shimmer weave scouts have now can hardly be described as a cloak, nor is it stealthy when it glows on your screen. If you look at the current Meta, most scouts appear to not use cloaks or just in limited capacity, and rather just run around with explosives and hack objectives, shotty everything to death. Their role needs diversity not a one fit does it situation the bandwidth imposes. Who's to say,you ask. CCP,i exclaim. Mid post,right above 'Quality over Quantity'. Wow, consider that in the brief time you have been arguing with me if they should have more bandwidth you still haven't asked how much more and yet you claim CCP has said what you are saying and you are also calling them liars. I have a really hard time reading any of your posts. Note, I did not once specify that I want to run a scout Logi. Also note that equipment costs on bandwidth apply to the other suits you spawn into so if you deployed in a Logi, dropped links and hives then switched to your scout to go hack, all your equipment dies. Thats not Quality over Quantity that is a lack of needed bandwidth to be what you need to when you need to be it. Its even worse when you switch to a Heavy from a Logi. As much as you appear to rage, it doesn't change the fact that I believe there is an issue here that need addressing. Wow,you can't read. Go back,and read the paragraph above 'Quality over quantity'. Above,not below,not beside. On top of. Oh yes i called them liars,but that doesn't change the fact they set the rules. You are a hypocrite,because you say 'respect CCP' and as soon as i link you to a post made by CCP to shut you up you write it off as bunk and worthless. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I don't respect, unlike you in this case. Read it yourself, there is nothing in there that say scouts are supposed to do X role so shut up. Think about what my post was about and be constructive. Or not, IDC. *--I am a Free Agent for Hire--*
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1572	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:49:00 - [1613] - Quote Cross is there a way to block people from posting scout sympathy requests here? Logistics is and has been broken for over 7 months and seeing these spoiled brats posting as if they actually have problems is tedious and detracts from the overall discussion. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
DJINN Jecture CANNIBALS RISING Dark Taboo 272	Posted - 2015.03.14 09:59:00 - [1614] - Quote Meee One wrote: Cross is there a way to block people from posting scout sympathy requests here? Logistics is and has been broken for over 7 months and seeing these spoiled brats posting as if they actually have problems is tedious and detracts from the overall discussion. Not a scout sympathy request, more an overall everyman request, because just because your yellow trash bag suits you doesn't mean it suits all situations. Investing 220k isk for the logi suit shouldn't mean losing that investment when you die to some explosive crazy scout jackrabbiting all over the map all the time when you switch to a Heavy suit to blaze him down with an HMG. *--I am a Free Agent for Hire--*
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 511	Posted - 2015.03.14 11:17:00 - [1615] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: BTW 98.9% of the links you spawn in on are scout uplinks. Maybe in PC, in Pubs I doubt it!
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven Back and Forth 1230	Posted - 2015.03.14 11:48:00 - [1616] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: BTW 98.9% of the links you spawn in on are scout uplinks. Maybe in PC, in Pubs I doubt it! Not in PC either. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Mordecai Snake Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 100	Posted - 2015.03.14 13:57:00 - [1617] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: My description of it being a scout problem was because they have the second highest bandwidth and if they have a problem everyone else does too. More like second lowest. Amarr/Caldari Logi: 20/28/36 Minmatar/Gallente Logi: 16/24/32 Light/Medium/Assault/Commando: 8/12/16 Scout: 6/9/12 Heavy/Sentinel: 0
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1486	Posted - 2015.03.14 16:30:00 - [1618] - Quote I was reviewing this thread that at one time I had high hopes for...would be pretty nice if a blue tag (well, Rattati, THE only blue tag that posts about the game) would let us know what his vision for logi play and players is. Perhaps we and the equipment / suits we use are exactly where he feels is good. I would strongly disagree if this is the case. I've long suspected we have no effective voice or at least one that resonates with him and that's unfortunate. I continue to see rumblings here and there about nerfing scanners, uplinks, rep tools, war point generation, and keeping logi suits thin on HP and slow footed to "balance" them. At least CCP Rattati doesn't seem to be listening to them anymore than he's listening to us...so far. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
DJINN Jecture CANNIBALS RISING Dark Taboo 272	Posted - 2015.03.14 16:51:00 - [1619] - Quote Mordecai Snake wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: My description of it being a scout problem was because they have the second highest bandwidth and if they have a problem everyone else does too. More like second lowest. Amarr/Caldari Logi: 20/28/36 Minmatar/Gallente Logi: 16/24/32 Light/Medium/Assault/Commando: 8/12/16 Scout: 6/9/12 Heavy/Sentinel: 0 Ah good point, as I said earlier I don't use assault. *--I am a Free Agent for Hire--*
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 928	Posted - 2015.03.14 23:44:00 - [1620] - Quote I'm A-OK with seeing bandwidth and the conditions it creates disappear. If not removing it completely I don't see buffing bandwidth limits for one class and not everyone. More bandwidth for all, I say, or no bandwidth for anyone! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 931	Posted - 2015.03.19 00:01:00 - [1621] - Quote Hey, look a blue tag!! Over there, in the vehicle qq threads Don't forget to lol @ the active "permascanner" threads on the way Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
DJINN Jecture MANUFACTURERS OF DEATH 284	Posted - 2015.03.20 06:39:00 - [1622] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I'm A-OK with seeing bandwidth and the conditions it creates disappear. If not removing it completely I don't see buffing bandwidth limits for one class and not everyone. More bandwidth for all, I say, or no bandwidth for anyone! Lol. Ok fair enough, has bandwidth limited active lag sessions for anyone? Or are we still seeing rampant Lag spams? Has it fixed the problem? I certainly still get lagged out from time to time. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven Back and Forth 1247	Posted - 2015.03.20 12:09:00 - [1623] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I'm A-OK with seeing bandwidth and the conditions it creates disappear. If not removing it completely I don't see buffing bandwidth limits for one class and not everyone. More bandwidth for all, I say, or no bandwidth for anyone! Lol. Ok fair enough, has bandwidth limited active lag sessions for anyone? Or are we still seeing rampant Lag spams? Has it fixed the problem? I certainly still get lagged out from time to time. Banwidth being introduced had no discernible effect on the game performance for me. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 554	Posted - 2015.03.20 12:13:00 - [1624] - Quote The only thing bandwith changed was the onesidedness of the games. If you have some dedicated linkers, you have a much better chance to win. If you just have kdr slayers who can't be asked to bring some links, you may end up running a lot...
DJINN Jecture MANUFACTURERS OF DEATH 285	Posted - 2015.03.20 13:22:00 - [1625] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: The only thing bandwith changed was the onesidedness of the games. If you have some dedicated linkers, you have a much better chance to win. If you just have kdr slayers who can't be asked to bring some links, you may end up running a lot... I am not actually sure if that really makes that much of a difference, often even with dedicated linkers it is the side that isn't wearing their best gear (cash money or pure sp proto) that usually loses out. OFC it can also be said that an disorganized and spread out team will lose out quickest too, but hey I have seen both ways for a battle to end badly and both ways for it to end well, although it is more expensive to run proto and the wallet doesn't like it. Ultimately I believe Scotty is to blame for the one-sidedness of the games and not anything else. Bandwidth has little effect on my lag situation, it is still a lag fest in the Gallente Research Facility socket, regardless of whether or not I am inside the socket or outside. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 556	Posted - 2015.03.20 13:42:00 - [1626] - Quote BW has decreased the amount of links in certain team builds. If you have a lot of heavys/slayers you have way less links, since the assaults usually bring hives. This cuts of the momentum as soon as the links are all gone. The reduced spawn count increases that problem, since the logis often can't respawn on their own links that just depleted. If they have somebody with a needle to pick them up fine, but that's only in the good squads, everybody else usually carries hives. So before BW, the links that some of the heavys and assaults put out on their first spawn kept the momentum going that is now so easily interrupted. This only helps the team that has the upper hand anyway, increasing the chance for onesided matches.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 942	Posted - 2015.03.23 02:14:00 - [1627] - Quote Sooo....where are we at with this stuff, Cross? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1502	Posted - 2015.03.23 05:27:00 - [1628] - Quote Team, Quick thoughts on BW plus the massive increase to carried equipment for all classes. 1) You directly increase the value of non-Logi equipment to the point it devalues logi play. - Carrying 3x compact nano-hives or perhaps Allotek's are massively useful to the individual player - scouts and assaults with up to 9x uplinks are quite possibly more of an asset than logi's with 9x uplinks. 2) Active logi play with scanners and reppers are the only tools holding value for logistics players due to suit bonuses. Needles, hives, and uplinks can be managed fairly effectively by scouts / assaults / commandos. This directly undercuts the Cal and Amarr logis which have traditionally been the lower tier support suits. 3) As noted by others...i've subjectively seen little to no actual in game improvement in performance. There may very well be some hard stats to the contrary that CCP has but my experience hasn't reflected this. edit: My recommendation is to either drop BW or the additional carried for non-logi suits. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 2777	Posted - 2015.03.23 05:42:00 - [1629] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Team, Quick thoughts on BW plus the massive increase to carried equipment for all classes. 1) You directly increase the value of non-Logi equipment to the point it devalues logi play. - Carrying 3x compact nano-hives or perhaps Allotek's are massively useful to the individual player - scouts and assaults with up to 9x uplinks are quite possibly more of an asset than logi's with 9x uplinks. 2) Active logi play with scanners and reppers are the only tools holding value for logistics players due to suit bonuses. Needles, hives, and uplinks can be managed fairly effectively by scouts / assaults / commandos. This directly undercuts the Cal and Amarr logis which have traditionally been the lower tier support suits. 3) As noted by others...i've subjectively seen little to no actual in game improvement in performance. There may very well be some hard stats to the contrary that CCP has but my experience hasn't reflected this. edit: My recommendation is to either drop BW or the additional carried for non-logi suits. Just change logi bonus. 5% reduction in equipment fitting and +1 max carried per level. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
DJINN Jecture MANUFACTURERS OF DEATH 295	Posted - 2015.03.23 07:06:00 - [1630] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Team, Quick thoughts on BW plus the massive increase to carried equipment for all classes. 1) You directly increase the value of non-Logi equipment to the point it devalues logi play. - Carrying 3x compact nano-hives or perhaps Allotek's are massively useful to the individual player - scouts and assaults with up to 9x uplinks are quite possibly more of an asset than logi's with 9x uplinks. 2) Active logi play with scanners and reppers are the only tools holding value for logistics players due to suit bonuses. Needles, hives, and uplinks can be managed fairly effectively by scouts / assaults / commandos. This directly undercuts the Cal and Amarr logis which have traditionally been the lower tier support suits. 3) As noted by others...i've subjectively seen little to no actual in game improvement in performance. There may very well be some hard stats to the contrary that CCP has but my experience hasn't reflected this. edit: My recommendation is to either drop BW or the additional carried for non-logi suits. Just change logi bonus. 5% reduction in equipment fitting and +1 max carried per level. This doesn't actually fix the problem just reduces the cost equipment has to fitting which really could be better but doesn't really affect how other classes bring stuff to the field, as stated most of the reason the other classes bring it is due to bandwidth. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*

Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven Back and Forth 1252	Posted - 2015.03.23 09:21:00 - [1631] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Team, Quick thoughts on BW plus the massive increase to carried equipment for all classes. 1) You directly increase the value of non-Logi equipment to the point it devalues logi play. - Carrying 3x compact nano-hives or perhaps Allotek's are massively useful to the individual player - scouts and assaults with up to 9x uplinks are quite possibly more of an asset than logi's with 9x uplinks. 2) Active logi play with scanners and reppers are the only tools holding value for logistics players due to suit bonuses. Needles, hives, and uplinks can be managed fairly effectively by scouts / assaults / commandos. This directly undercuts the Cal and Amarr logis which have traditionally been the lower tier support suits. 3) As noted by others...i've subjectively seen little to no actual in game improvement in performance. There may very well be some hard stats to the contrary that CCP has but my experience hasn't reflected this. edit: My recommendation is to either drop BW or the additional carried for non-logi suits. Ok, clarifying question? By "drop" here, do you mean reduce BW for non-logi suits, or remove BW from the game entirely? Actually, nevermind. In either case, I can't really agree with you. Reducing BW further would basically make any deployables unusable for std and maybe adv tier (non-logi) suits, and I doubt CCP would remove the entire concept from the game at this point. I while I was never nuts about the whole thing, it does work somewhat to increase the preceived value of a logi suit on the field, however minimally. The additional carried amount... Yeah, that should have been introduced as a logistic bonus, as has been suggested multiple times in the past. I absolutely love the fact that I don't run out of hives or links quite so fast anymore, makes the game feel more fluid and dynamic. But I also know there is no point in me carrying proto ammo hives for my squad, as an assault with k-2s or x-3s will not only be self-sufficient for the majority of a battle, but even able to supply the rest of the squad. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 594	Posted - 2015.03.23 11:30:00 - [1632] - Quote I think the last changes to deployable equipment have increased the spam again. Since nobody needs to save hives anymore, they get dropped all the time. And to compensate for the decreased amount of spawns on the links, you have to drop even more, to make sure they don't get depleted. All in all, the last iteration of the EQ theme has made things worse.
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven Back and Forth 1252	Posted - 2015.03.23 11:42:00 - [1633] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: I think the last changes to deployable equipment have increased the spam again. Since nobody needs to save hives anymore, they get dropped all the time. And to compensate for the decreased amount of spawns on the links, you have to drop even more, to make sure they don't get depleted. All in all, the last iteration of the EQ theme has made things worse. sigh Except, the carried amount changing doesn't affect the number of active per equipment. So, yes, you now have more spares, but you'll still only have the same number active simultaneously as before the change. How does that "increase spam"? Unless you are one of those people who use the word "spam" to describe any occasion of a logi deploying a piece of equipment? Yes, another hive can be now deployed more freely AS NEEDED, as opposed to having to hoard them like gold for the last possible moment, but each time a new one is dropped, a previously deployed one pops, so what exactly is the problem? The deployables exist to be used, so they should. A mobile on the move squad being able to reinforce a new location with a link when they move makes the game less campy and static, I still can not comprehend how some people think that is a bad thing... Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 594	Posted - 2015.03.23 11:53:00 - [1634] - Quote I've written about the recent changes to links in another thread, my point is, to make sure you have enough spawns at all times, you have to compensate with more links out. For me that means, that I can't switch to a support suit (read no links but reps needle hives on it). Because the links deplete all the time. The amount of total spawns on advanced links actually got nerfed, since the amount of spawns on the active links is only half of what it was. This won't affect guys like you Zaria, since you run in a squad and probably proto most of the time. Resulting in less deaths. So you profit much more from more links on your belt, than somebody who dies a lot more, deploys only advanced links, and can't spawn on his own links regularly, due to them being depleted. The fast depletion, means more people have to bring links to make sure links stay up at any given time. This also means, that teams that have not enough linkers will get pushed back to their redline much easier. Resulting in more onesided matches. So right now, you have either more links than before Echo hotfix, or you have barely any. In my opinion that is bad.
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven Back and Forth 1252	Posted - 2015.03.23 13:40:00 - [1635] - Quote Hmm... the number of spawns was perhaps too harshly reduced, for the lower tier links in particular. But on the other hand. I think a good, safe spawn location being accessible to the whole team for the duration of a battle should require maintenance, and not be handled by one person dropping a link or two within the first 30 seconds of the battle and then forgetting about it. And in general, links are a very powerful tool in this game, that can be used to shape the battlefield and the course of the battle. I am fine with some limitations placed on them. I personally prefer the active, more fluid approach to their use, than them being a drop and forget WP farm. Yes, being able to drop links at the beginning and then switch out to another fit increases the different ways one person can support the team, but surely even a logi shouldn't be able to do everything at once. The game's all about choices and adapting to a changing situation. Now, maybe, there could be an higher spawn count uplink variant that is meant for those long lasting back up links that are "off the beaten path"... the would however have to have drawbacks to not overshadow the regular links. Long spawn time, only 1 active, higher bandwith... and so on. But once again, I'm afraid that those links would be the ones placed on some high tower at the beginning, never (needing) to be replaced, so half the team spawns up there to snipe and forge snipe, losing the match just as surely as if they stayed in the redline. And, frankly, a team that only has one or two people ever drop links, with no team play to support the survival of those links, in Domination specifically, ought to lose. Harsh maybe, and no, I don't enjoy onesided redline battles... but I have also been the only linker on my team plenty enough times, and blueberries need to learn somehow As to running proto as a logi automatically resulting in less deaths... Unfortunately for me, I have come to notice I lose far more suits running as the only support player in a squad, and having to run proto in that case, than I do running an advanced logi suit (with mostly proto equipment though) in a squad with at least one other logi, where we can "split the duties" so to say. That's just my personal experience though :) Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 599	Posted - 2015.03.23 17:04:00 - [1636] - Quote In my opinion, we should have a more diverse slection of links. Flux should be like now, fastest spawn times, and lowest spawn count per drop but plenty carried. Then gauged, should be the most active at once with medium spawn time, and medium amount of spawns. While the quantum, should be like the old version of these links. Longest spawn times is a good enough drawback and not more than two active at once. The Tower situation, should be solved by better flux OB's. Increase the wp price for the minis, but make them much bigger radius, so that you consistently hit what you want to destroy. It would also help, if the crosshair for the OB's would stay in the center of the screen, and the map would move underneath. That would prevent misses due to the 3D nature of the map.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 942	Posted - 2015.03.23 20:45:00 - [1637] - Quote lol "blueberries need to learn somehow" Amen. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 1441	Posted - 2015.03.24 01:16:00 - [1638] - Quote And on the 82nd page Boobies checked in , looking for that elusive Blue Tag. Alas, it was not to be this day... IF YOU CAN READ THIS YOU DON'T NEED GLASSES
John Demonsbane Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 5139	Posted - 2015.03.24 02:36:00 - [1639] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: And on the 82nd page Boobies checked in , looking for that elusive Blue Tag. Alas, it was not to be this day... walks by, looks over his shoulder Indeed. Hope springs eternal, I suppose. Try again in a few weeks then? (The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1504	Posted - 2015.03.24 03:11:00 - [1640] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Team, Quick thoughts on BW plus the massive increase to carried equipment for all classes. 1) You directly increase the value of non-Logi equipment to the point it devalues logi play. - Carrying 3x compact nano-hives or perhaps Allotek's are massively useful to the individual player - scouts and assaults with up to 9x uplinks are quite possibly more of an asset than logi's with 9x uplinks. 2) Active logi play with scanners and reppers are the only tools holding value for logistics players due to suit bonuses. Needles, hives, and uplinks can be managed fairly effectively by scouts / assaults / commandos. This directly undercuts the Cal and Amarr logis which have traditionally been the lower tier support suits. 3) As noted by others...i've subjectively seen little to no actual in game improvement in performance. There may very well be some hard stats to the contrary that CCP has but my experience hasn't reflected this. edit: My recommendation is to either drop BW or the additional carried for non-logi suits. Ok, clarifying question? By "drop" here, do you mean reduce BW for non-logi suits, or remove BW from the game entirely? Actually, nevermind. In either case, I can't really agree with you. Reducing BW further would basically make any deployables unusable for std and maybe adv tier (non-logi) suits, and I doubt CCP would remove the entire concept from the game at this point. I while I was never nuts about the whole thing, it does work somewhat to increase the preceived value of a logi suit on the field, however minimally. The additional carried amount... Yeah, that should have been introduced as a logistic bonus, as has been suggested multiple times in the past. I absolutely love the fact that I don't run out of hives or links quite so fast anymore, makes the game feel more fluid and dynamic. But I also know there is no point in me carrying proto ammo hives for my squad, as an assault with k-2s or x-3s will not only be self-sufficient for the majority of a battle, but even able to supply the rest of the squad. @Zaria... I was referring to removing BW in favor of the increased equipment carried OR keeping BW and dropping the increased carry numbers of equipment. Concur that Rattati and some folks on the CPM are quite enamored with BW and it's unlikely to change. If the increased carry rate is a logi bonus only that could work well. When it's open to all...it flies in the face of the BW "buff". "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen

Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 1444	Posted - 2015.03.25 17:35:00 - [1641] - Quote So, if the Logis get a small HP buff, swap speeds with the Assault frames, and attain better equipment bonuses; will people come back yelling about Slayer Logis? Assaults, Heavies, and Scouts will still be better slayers, imo. How does everyone feel about forcing equipment slots to be filled to make a fit valid? This is the direction Rattati took with the Madruger and Gunlogi, by forcing them to have small turrets. Could help ward off any die hard slayer logi QQ. IF YOU CAN READ THIS YOU DON'T NEED GLASSES
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1329	Posted - 2015.03.26 00:31:00 - [1642] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: So, if the Logis get a small HP buff, swap speeds with the Assault frames, and attain better equipment bonuses; will people come back yelling about Slayer Logis? Assaults, Heavies, and Scouts will still be better slayers, imo. How does everyone feel about forcing equipment slots to be filled to make a fit valid? This is the direction Rattati took with the Madruger and Gunlogi, by forcing them to have small turrets. Could help ward off any die hard slayer logi QQ. i dont mind forcing an equipment fit, the only reason anyone ever wanted to do a slayer fit on a caldari logi in the first place was because it was the only suit that could do a proper shield tank with its 4 lows and regulator bonus and that dream of playing a passive shield rep suit is looooong gone. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 637	Posted - 2015.03.26 11:38:00 - [1643] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: @Zaria... I was referring to removing BW in favor of the increased equipment carried OR keeping BW and dropping the increased carry numbers of equipment. Concur that Rattati and some folks on the CPM are quite enamored with BW and it's unlikely to change. If the increased carry rate is a logi bonus only that could work well. When it's open to all...it flies in the face of the BW "buff". I don't like the BW too much, but I can cope... What I really don't like however, is the Echo changes to links, the medium and basic links do not have enought spawns. Right now, these are only viable for close support logis, meaning you drop them when one of your squadmates needs a spawn close to the squad. They lost all strategic value however, so that you have to lay proto links, if you want a longer term backup link of the beaten paths. This is bad, because it favours the proto stompers once again... So what we need, is more variety betwheen different link types. Also, I think all hives should be only one active at any time. Since the hive animation, seems to be a bigger resource hog than any other EQ in the field. But, give the Caldari logi a +1 active for all hive variants. This would make the Cal logi the hive specialist, and if you want to support your core spamming friends, the go to suit for it. Compact hives should be 1 carried max, otherwise the assault who use these the most, will be to self sufficient...
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 942	Posted - 2015.03.26 18:05:00 - [1644] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: So, if the Logis get a small HP buff, swap speeds with the Assault frames, and attain better equipment bonuses; will people come back yelling about Slayer Logis? Assaults, Heavies, and Scouts will still be better slayers, imo. How does everyone feel about forcing equipment slots to be filled to make a fit valid? This is the direction Rattati took with the Madruger and Gunlogi, by forcing them to have small turrets. Could help ward off any die hard slayer logi QQ. I definitely don't think we should swap speeds with assault frames, they should be faster, we just shouldn't be as slow as we are. Base tank, gank and speed should all be better from the other frames, we just need our base to be close enough to keep up. I'd rather not see a full equipment fitting requirement for us but if there had to be I'd much prefer that it just be a slot used requirement versus some of the preload garbage we see on the bpo's. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4084	Posted - 2015.03.26 20:43:00 - [1645] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: So, if the Logis get a small HP buff, swap speeds with the Assault frames, and attain better equipment bonuses; will people come back yelling about Slayer Logis? Assaults, Heavies, and Scouts will still be better slayers, imo. How does everyone feel about forcing equipment slots to be filled to make a fit valid? This is the direction Rattati took with the Madruger and Gunlogi, by forcing them to have small turrets. Could help ward off any die hard slayer logi QQ. Will people come back yelling about slayer logi? Quite possibly and I will do my best to be constructive while addressing their deeply misplaced fears. I am not a fan of forced fits as a rule but required equipment slots is something that - for me personally - is not off the table if it serves a needed purpose. I think there are other methods to explore that I would like to look into first, but if it comes down to it I'd likely support a equipment requirement despite my overall distaste for that type of mechanic. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4085	Posted - 2015.03.26 20:49:00 - [1646] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: So, if the Logis get a small HP buff, swap speeds with the Assault frames, and attain better equipment bonuses; will people come back yelling about Slayer Logis? Assaults, Heavies, and Scouts will still be better slayers, imo. How does everyone feel about forcing equipment slots to be filled to make a fit valid? This is the direction Rattati took with the Madruger and Gunlogi, by forcing them to have small turrets. Could help ward off any die hard slayer logi QQ. I definitely don't think we should swap speeds with assault frames, they should be faster, we just shouldn't be as slow as we are. Base tank, gank and speed should all be better from the other frames, we just need our base to be close enough to keep up. I'd rather not see a full equipment fitting requirement for us but if there had to be I'd much prefer that it just be a slot used requirement versus some of the preload garbage we see on the bpo's. I'm of the stated view that Logi should be positioned between the Light frame and the Assault. Now what that means as to details I'm open about but I would actually support swapping speed with the Assaults. As has been shown repeatedly mobility effects the value of many support actions at such a profound level that the light frame line of suits can often be more viable as support even without skill buffs simply because of their enhanced mobility. Besides that if the Assault is going to be the more tanked medium frame (which seems reasonable) then making logi both more fragile and less capable of GTFO when they're outmatched seems like a good way to keep the role crippled. If you can't fight and you can't run and you can't really hide what do you do besides die? I see no reason why the Assault should be the medium frame with the better stats in everything aside from equipment slots, in fact in that context I see no way that the internal balance of medium frames can avoid being broken. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4085	Posted - 2015.03.26 20:53:00 - [1647] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: @Zaria... I was referring to removing BW in favor of the increased equipment carried OR keeping BW and dropping the increased carry numbers of equipment. Concur that Rattati and some folks on the CPM are quite enamored with BW and it's unlikely to change. If the increased carry rate is a logi bonus only that could work well. When it's open to all...it flies in the face of the BW "buff". I don't like the BW too much, but I can cope... What I really don't like however, is the Echo changes to links, the medium and basic links do not have enought spawns. Right now, these are only viable for close support logis, meaning you drop them when one of your squadmates needs a spawn close to the squad. They lost all strategic value however, so that you have to lay proto links, if you want a longer term backup link of the beaten paths. This is bad, because it favours the proto stompers once again... So what we need, is more variety betwheen different link types. Also, I think all hives should be only one active at any time. Since the hive animation, seems to be a bigger resource hog than any other EQ in the field. But, give the Caldari logi a +1 active for all hive variants. This would make the Cal logi the hive specialist, and if you want to support your core spamming friends, the go to suit for it. Compact hives should be 1 carried max, otherwise the assault who use these the most, will be to self sufficient... It also favors the Amarr logi skill bonus, those extra spawns from the racial now carry a lot more tactical/contextual potency than they once did. All of that being said I heartily support a diversification sweep on support gear (deployed and otherwise). It is something I would like to tackle once the pass on logistics frames has been iterated and pushed into the live game. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4085	Posted - 2015.03.26 20:57:00 - [1648] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: And on the 82nd page Boobies checked in , looking for that elusive Blue Tag. Alas, it was not to be this day... walks by, looks over his shoulder Indeed. Hope springs eternal, I suppose. Try again in a few weeks then? I don't expect to see a blue tag in this thread, because I talk to CCP R directly about the content and developments within this thread so it would almost be redundant. That being said you can now all yell at me when the changes some and you object to some part of them Seriously though I have touched base with Dev on this subject within the last few hours and I'm obviously not going to let the issue rest until changes have happened. When they do I'm counting on the support community to find all the broken things and feed them too me post haste so I can get them addressed as opposed to letting them fall off the radar. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 648	Posted - 2015.03.26 21:39:00 - [1649] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I'm of the stated view that Logi should be positioned between the Light frame and the Assault. Now what that means as to details I'm open about but I would actually support swapping speed with the Assaults. As has been shown repeatedly mobility effects the value of many support actions at such a profound level that the light frame line of suits can often be more viable as support even without skill buffs simply because of their enhanced mobility. Besides that if the Assault is going to be the more tanked medium frame (which seems reasonable) then making logi both more fragile and less capable of GTFO when they're outmatched seems like a good way to keep the role crippled. If you can't fight and you can't run and you can't really hide what do you do besides die? I see no reason why the Assault should be the medium frame with the better stats in everything aside from equipment slots, in fact in that context I see no way that the internal balance of medium frames can avoid being broken. 0.02 ISK Cross Thank you very much, this would help a lot. Also standardizing the EQ slots for all tiers. That's the way all other classes work.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4102	Posted - 2015.03.26 21:55:00 - [1650] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I'm of the stated view that Logi should be positioned between the Light frame and the Assault. Now what that means as to details I'm open about but I would actually support swapping speed with the Assaults. As has been shown repeatedly mobility effects the value of many support actions at such a profound level that the light frame line of suits can often be more viable as support even without skill buffs simply because of their enhanced mobility. Besides that if the Assault is going to be the more tanked medium frame (which seems reasonable) then making logi both more fragile and less capable of GTFO when they're outmatched seems like a good way to keep the role crippled. If you can't fight and you can't run and you can't really hide what do you do besides die? I see no reason why the Assault should be the medium frame with the better stats in everything aside from equipment slots, in fact in that context I see no way that the internal balance of medium frames can avoid being broken. 0.02 ISK Cross Thank you very much, this would help a lot. Also standardizing the EQ slots for all tiers. That's the way all other classes work. EQ slot progression is absolutely on the list. With BW in the game - and one of the reasons I supported it - I see no reason why a STD logi frame can/should not have a full allotment of EQ slots. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 650	Posted - 2015.03.26 22:01:00 - [1651] - Quote Have another like for that!!!
The Dark Cloud Negative-Feedback. 4199	Posted - 2015.03.27 02:33:00 - [1652] - Quote Gonna throw this in: Change the cal. logi to be a shield logi and introduce a shield recharger tool to finally fill the gap between armor and shields. Nobody uses the Cal. Logi simply because it has the worst bonus on it and "buffing" the nanohive bonus wont help. It needs a 100% rework and be capable to support players that have shield tanked suits. And if you say that would be OP then how about we remove remote armor reps and replace the minlogi bonus to remote explosive damage? Seems fair to me. I make the scrubs scream and the vets cry.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4134	Posted - 2015.03.27 07:00:00 - [1653] - Quote The Dark Cloud wrote: Gonna throw this in: Change the cal. logi to be a shield logi and introduce a shield recharger tool to finally fill the gap between armor and shields. Nobody uses the Cal. Logi simply because it has the worst bonus on it and "buffing" the nanohive bonus wont help. It needs a 100% rework and be capable to support players that have shield tanked suits. And if you say that would be OP then how about we remove remote armor reps and replace the minlogi bonus to remote explosive damage? Seems fair to me. I'd rather improve the rest of the logi to meet the Mins with level of effective value, not nerf the whole role. I am actually a strong proponent of exploring what is needed to get a shield repper into the game. When it comes to racial logi my hope is to add a second layer of skill to each race giving some rep type (shield or armor) to each race. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 655	Posted - 2015.03.27 11:51:00 - [1654] - Quote Please do not make the min logi a remote expert... I would however like combined shield armor repper bonuses if a shield transporter is ever introduced.
Haerr Nos Nothi 2649	Posted - 2015.03.27 12:02:00 - [1655] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Please do not make the min logi a remote expert... I would however like combined shield armor repper bonuses if a shield transporter is ever introduced. Hah, I can see it before me now. MinLogi Skill: +XX% Blast Radius for Explosives and Explosive weapons and Grenades +XX% Ammo carried for Explosives and Explosive weapons and Grenades +XX% Deployed Explosives > [17:18] Haerr "[...]Tired of being told HAVs are OP[...]" > [17:21] Haerr "My Soma is OP, fear me! [:lol:][:pirate:]"
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven Back and Forth 1270	Posted - 2015.03.27 12:14:00 - [1656] - Quote Haerr wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Please do not make the min logi a remote expert... I would however like combined shield armor repper bonuses if a shield transporter is ever introduced. Hah, I can see it before me now. MinLogi Skill: +XX% Blast Radius for Explosives and Explosive weapons and Grenades +XX% Ammo carried for Explosives and Explosive weapons and Grenades +XX% Deployed Explosives Oh, oh yes. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 656	Posted - 2015.03.27 12:37:00 - [1657] - Quote This would just lead to never ending remote spam.... -1 DON'T DO IT!
The dark cloud Negative-Feedback. 4200	Posted - 2015.03.27 15:20:00 - [1658] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: This would just lead to never ending remote spam.... -1 DON'T DO IT! Then give the caldari its well deserved shield recharger tool then you can keep your reptool and the bonus the minlogi gets for it. I make the scrubs scream and the vets cry.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 658	Posted - 2015.03.27 15:27:00 - [1659] - Quote The Dark Cloud wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: This would just lead to never ending remote spam.... -1 DON'T DO IT! Then give the caldari its well deserved shield recharger tool then you can keep your reptool and the bonus the minlogi gets for it. Something similar... As it was proposed before: Amarr get a reptool bonus Gallente get a reptool bonus (would be even cooler if they would get an additional bonus to the targets rep modules) Caldari get a shield transporter (repper) bonus Minmatar get a slightly lower bonus for reptool AND shield transporter...
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 1449	Posted - 2015.03.27 16:58:00 - [1660] - Quote The Dark Cloud wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: This would just lead to never ending remote spam.... -1 DON'T DO IT! Then give the caldari its well deserved shield recharger tool then you can keep your reptool and the bonus the minlogi gets for it. LOL at half-assed ransom attempt. There is no way, with remotes in their current state, that ANY suit will get a bonus to them. A shield rep tool and role bonus is needed however, yes, agreed. IF YOU CAN READ THIS YOU DON'T NEED GLASSES

Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 1449	Posted - 2015.03.27 17:05:00 - [1661] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I'm of the stated view that Logi should be positioned between the Light frame and the Assault. Now what that means as to details I'm open about but I would actually support swapping speed with the Assaults. As has been shown repeatedly mobility effects the value of many support actions at such a profound level that the light frame line of suits can often be more viable as support even without skill buffs simply because of their enhanced mobility. Besides that if the Assault is going to be the more tanked medium frame (which seems reasonable) then making logi both more fragile and less capable of GTFO when they're outmatched seems like a good way to keep the role crippled. If you can't fight and you can't run and you can't really hide what do you do besides die? I see no reason why the Assault should be the medium frame with the better stats in everything aside from equipment slots, in fact in that context I see no way that the internal balance of medium frames can avoid being broken. 0.02 ISK Cross I think that a straight speed swap will also be an indirect nerf to the Min Assault, which would actually reign its super strafing QQ in. Cross, can you shed any light on whether or not Logis will be getting a bonus to ALL equipment, with certain races getting greater bonuses than others? A Min Logi's uplinks should be worse than an Amarr Logi, but greater than a Scout, Commando, or Assault. Also, even though I have suggested forcing equipment slots to be filled, I too am not a fan of forcing playstyles on people. However, I see no way to keep 'Logis OP' threads from popping up otherwise once we finally get the few buffs we need. IF YOU CAN READ THIS YOU DON'T NEED GLASSES
The Dark Cloud Negative-Feedback. 4201	Posted - 2015.03.27 17:42:00 - [1662] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: The Dark Cloud wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: This would just lead to never ending remote spam.... -1 DON'T DO IT! Then give the caldari its well deserved shield recharger tool then you can keep your reptool and the bonus the minlogi gets for it. Something similar... As it was proposed before: Amarr get a reptool bonus Gallente get a reptool bonus (would be even cooler if they would get an additional bonus to the targets rep modules) Caldari get a shield transporter (repper) bonus Minmatar get a slightly lower bonus for reptool AND shield transporter... I wouldnt go so far to give every suit a bonus for it. The scanner and uplink bonuses are actually established and appreaciated things. While the caldari nanohive bonus was previously not a usefull thing for competetive play it has beeing made even worse since every 1 can carry tons of nanohives to begin with. Which makes the point of speccing into Cal. Logi even more of a joke then it is. Well you could missuse it and put 5 myo's on it and spam uplinks on high grounds but that wasnt the purpose of the suit and its questionable if it remains like that with a more then likely nerf/fitting restriction to them in the future. I make the scrubs scream and the vets cry.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 943	Posted - 2015.03.27 20:09:00 - [1663] - Quote The Dark Cloud wrote: Gonna throw this in: Change the cal. logi to be a shield logi and introduce a shield recharger tool to finally fill the gap between armor and shields. Nobody uses the Cal. Logi simply because it has the worst bonus on it and "buffing" the nanohive bonus wont help. It needs a 100% rework and be capable to support players that have shield tanked suits. And if you say that would be OP then how about we remove remote armor reps and replace the minlogi bonus to remote explosive damage? Seems fair to me. CalLogi and its bonus are awesome , especially with frontline combat groups reinforcing positions or flanking and doing the same. The existing bonus at proto ceates hive bubbles almost the full width of city socket streets . Give it a sidearm and its missing cpu and if later on there's a shield tool address that, then. While I like the idea of Logis being bonused for REs (therefore, I'm assuming also PEs) I personally would not want to trade the MinLogis existing rep bonus for them. If anything, add it on to the Amarr (the most potent of the AV Logis) and then spread it across to the others in whatever decending or equalized fashion. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 943	Posted - 2015.03.27 20:28:00 - [1664] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: So, if the Logis get a small HP buff, swap speeds with the Assault frames, and attain better equipment bonuses; will people come back yelling about Slayer Logis? Assaults, Heavies, and Scouts will still be better slayers, imo. How does everyone feel about forcing equipment slots to be filled to make a fit valid? This is the direction Rattati took with the Madruger and Gunlogi, by forcing them to have small turrets. Could help ward off any die hard slayer logi QQ. I definitely don't think we should swap speeds with assault frames, they should be faster, we just shouldn't be as slow as we are. Base tank, gank and speed should all be better from the other frames, we just need our base to be close enough to keep up. I'd rather not see a full equipment fitting requirement for us but if there had to be I'd much prefer that it just be a slot used requirement versus some of the preload garbage we see on the bpo's. I'm of the stated view that Logi should be positioned between the Light frame and the Assault. Now what that means as to details I'm open about but I would actually support swapping speed with the Assaults. As has been shown repeatedly mobility effects the value of many support actions at such a profound level that the light frame line of suits can often be more viable as support even without skill buffs simply because of their enhanced mobility. Besides that if the Assault is going to be the more tanked medium frame (which seems reasonable) then making logi both more fragile and less capable of GTFO when they're outmatched seems like a good way to keep the role crippled. If you can't fight and you can't run and you can't really hide what do you do besides die? I see no reason why the Assault should be the medium frame with the better stats in everything aside from equipment slots, in fact in that context I see no way that the internal balance of medium frames can avoid being broken. 0.02 ISK Cross Don't get me wrong, you get me scout speeds I'll take them. However the minute that happens it'll be a high-likelihood situation that every slayer in the game will begin running a Logi because they'll have the speed. The real speed buff we should be looking for should be for Movement versus Sprinting. We should WALK faster, since with a repper we can't sprint, but not neccessarily RUN faster. And when I mean Assaults run faster I mean (gonna use some random numbers here) if the Assaults' sprint speed is 7m/s, then ours is 6.85m/s. They're technically faster and across a long run they'll outpace us BUT we're still right in there with them for a bit.If the Logi wants/needs more then its mod time. Now, our stamina pools and regen periods should be way more effective than scouts or assaults and the combo of the two (speedbuff w/the stampool+regen buff) would get us where we should be. EDIT- Thinking this through some more I see how it may just be easier for all involved to just swap those speeds (the Assault and Logi) for sprinting, scouts will still be waay faster anyway. I still don't think its the best idea and that walking speed buffs should really be what we're after BUT whatever. More than anything else I just want us to avoid getting overbuffed, subsequently nerfed and finally ending up post-nerf worse than we were prior to buffing. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Mister Goo Random Gunz 188	Posted - 2015.03.27 21:05:00 - [1665] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Don't get me wrong, you get me scout speeds I'll take them. However the minute that happens it'll be a high-likelihood situation that every slayer in the game will begin running a Logi because they'll have the speed. The real speed buff we should be looking for should be for Movement versus Sprinting. We should WALK faster, since with a repper we can't sprint, but not neccessarily RUN faster. And when I mean Assaults run faster I mean (gonna use some random numbers here) if the Assaults' sprint speed is 7m/s, then ours is 6.85m/s. They're technically faster and across a long run they'll outpace us BUT we're still right in there with them for a bit.If the Logi wants/needs more then its mod time. Now, our stamina pools and regen periods should be way more effective than scouts or assaults and the combo of the two (speedbuff w/the stampool+regen buff) would get us where we should be. EDIT- Thinking this through some more I see how it may just be easier for all involved to just swap those speeds (the Assault and Logi) for sprinting, scouts will still be waay faster anyway. I still don't think its the best idea and that walking speed buffs should really be what we're after BUT whatever. More than anything else I just want us to avoid getting overbuffed, subsequently nerfed and finally ending up post-nerf worse than we were prior to buffing. Amen Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
DJINN Jecture MANUFACTURERS OF DEATH 306	Posted - 2015.03.28 02:15:00 - [1666] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: The Dark Cloud wrote: Gonna throw this in: Change the cal. logi to be a shield logi and introduce a shield recharger tool to finally fill the gap between armor and shields. Nobody uses the Cal. Logi simply because it has the worst bonus on it and "buffing" the nanohive bonus wont help. It needs a 100% rework and be capable to support players that have shield tanked suits. And if you say that would be OP then how about we remove remote armor reps and replace the minlogi bonus to remote explosive damage? Seems fair to me. I'd rather improve the rest of the logi to meet the Mins with level of effective value, not nerf the whole role. I am actually a strong proponent of exploring what is needed to get a shield repper into the game. When it comes to racial logi my hope is to add a second layer of skill to each race giving some rep type (shield or armor) to each race. Skill to train for shield or armor or both types of rep would be preferable if you are going that route (sometimes people shield tank an armor based suit). Having the base repper Armor (as it is now) and adding a "shield boosting" tool skill would fit for what you describe better than racial bonuses. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4158	Posted - 2015.03.28 06:59:00 - [1667] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I'm of the stated view that Logi should be positioned between the Light frame and the Assault. Now what that means as to details I'm open about but I would actually support swapping speed with the Assaults. As has been shown repeatedly mobility effects the value of many support actions at such a profound level that the light frame line of suits can often be more viable as support even without skill buffs simply because of their enhanced mobility. Besides that if the Assault is going to be the more tanked medium frame (which seems reasonable) then making logi both more fragile and less capable of GTFO when they're outmatched seems like a good way to keep the role crippled. If you can't fight and you can't run and you can't really hide what do you do besides die? I see no reason why the Assault should be the medium frame with the better stats in everything aside from equipment slots, in fact in that context I see no way that the internal balance of medium frames can avoid being broken. 0.02 ISK Cross I think that a straight speed swap will also be an indirect nerf to the Min Assault, which would actually reign its super strafing QQ in. Cross, can you shed any light on whether or not Logis will be getting a bonus to ALL equipment, with certain races getting greater bonuses than others? A Min Logi's uplinks should be worse than an Amarr Logi, but greater than a Scout, Commando, or Assault. Also, even though I have suggested forcing equipment slots to be filled, I too am not a fan of forcing playstyles on people. However, I see no way to keep 'Logis OP' threads from popping up otherwise once we finally get the few buffs we need. Based on the numbers I'm aware of a 'soft nerf' to the Min Assault is required at this point yes. That wasn't part of the initial motive for these changes on my end but it does give even more reason to support them IMO. There is still a lot of push from certain quarters that the number of deployed equipment pieces on the field is too high, as such the first way to give logistics a role wide advantage to equipment use while also addressing the continued push to bring down deployment saturation is pretty simple in my view and goes back to iteration one of the proposal from the OP. Increase the CPU/PG cost on support equipment and double the logistics role buff that reduces the CPU/PG cost of fitted equipment mods. This is a very mild net gain for the logi in fitting and a further constraint for other frames with regards to equipment use (lower meta levels have lower max deployed totals etc.) This does not directly hard code the Cal Logi having better uplinks than a scout but it does make the opportunity cost ratio for any logi better than for other frames. I like that it still allows other frames to run gear at full effect, but they have to pay a high price for it, while logi running top support rigs will be brought closer to standard. @Thread; Re: Slayer Logi/Logi OP threads - These threads are present even now, there are calls to nerf links, nerf scans, nerf reps, etc. I think that no matter what changes are made there will still be threads call for logi nerfs after the change just as there are now, and that the number of them will increase. I am to a place now where if the thread in question does not provide some clear and constructive reasoning behind it I'm disinclined to give it any credence and am proceeding with my suggestions to CCP in that vein. Support should be a viable role on the field not just chum for "rambo" slayers to use in padding their kdr. Logistics need a buff, and I'm simply going to suggest the most reasonable buff I can see that will properly align their balance and deal with the "slayer/OP" threads afterwords, but to be blunt the fear of "slayer logi" has been vastly over blown for months (if not longer) at this point. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5310	Posted - 2015.03.28 10:42:00 - [1668] - Quote Popping in to say that one of the best logistics players I knew back in chromosome still to this day runs a shield/speed tanked minmatar logi. Obviously the meta has changed, but back when there was such a thing as Type 2/ B Series / vk.1...running a speed logi healing back and forth was not only more fun, but definitely increased your survivability. The logistics was also defaulted to minmatar, which keeps in line with the idea of logistics players needing that speed boost to stay alive. Obviously the main reason logistics had reduced speed in uprising was to balance them from the assaults...but now that assaults have been buffed to usable levels again and have respectable HP amounts, I see no reason not to switch the speeds I don't see this change turning logistics suits into slayers at all. If that is a real issue then we can always adjust stamina to make assaults the better choice for traversal and movement compared to logistics 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 665	Posted - 2015.03.28 11:13:00 - [1669] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: @Thread; Re: Slayer Logi/Logi OP threads - These threads are present even now, there are calls to nerf links, nerf scans, nerf reps, etc. I think that no matter what changes are made there will still be threads call for logi nerfs after the change just as there are now, and that the number of them will increase. I am to a place now where if the thread in question does not provide some clear and constructive reasoning behind it I'm disinclined to give it any credence and am proceeding with my suggestions to CCP in that vein. Support should be a viable role on the field not just chum for "rambo" slayers to use in padding their kdr. Logistics need a buff, and I'm simply going to suggest the most reasonable buff I can see that will properly align their balance and deal with the "slayer/OP" threads afterwords, but to be blunt the fear of "slayer logi" has been vastly over blown for months (if not longer) at this point. Amen to that! Additionally I'd say, the main gripe Assaults have is the positioning of Logis above on the scoreboard... So this matter should easily be solved, if CCP puts in a More KDR based scoreboard as an alternative (not for the payouts, but maybe as an additional board for endmatch analysis).
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4162	Posted - 2015.03.28 15:23:00 - [1670] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Cross Atu wrote: @Thread; Re: Slayer Logi/Logi OP threads - These threads are present even now, there are calls to nerf links, nerf scans, nerf reps, etc. I think that no matter what changes are made there will still be threads call for logi nerfs after the change just as there are now, and that the number of them will increase. I am to a place now where if the thread in question does not provide some clear and constructive reasoning behind it I'm disinclined to give it any credence and am proceeding with my suggestions to CCP in that vein. Support should be a viable role on the field not just chum for "rambo" slayers to use in padding their kdr. Logistics need a buff, and I'm simply going to suggest the most reasonable buff I can see that will properly align their balance and deal with the "slayer/OP" threads afterwords, but to be blunt the fear of "slayer logi" has been vastly over blown for months (if not longer) at this point. Amen to that! Additionally I'd say, the main gripe Assaults have is the positioning of Logis above on the scoreboard... So this matter should easily be solved, if CCP puts in a More KDR based scoreboard as an alternative (not for the payouts, but maybe as an additional board for endmatch analysis). Call me crazy but I think ePeen should never be a factor in game balance choices. I'd rather see kdr cut from Dust and replaced with the vastly more relevant stat of ISK efficiency. That being said I don't expect kdr to ever change, the habit - derived from other games where it is in fact contextually meaningful - of consulting it heavily is too ingrained in the player base. In light of which an option to define how your end of match screen is sorted WP or KDR would be valuable/valid. Or as you have suggested another panel during the post match feedback step. And, my own views aside, if a way to display the information from a match can be found to make more players satisfied with their gaming experience than that is obviously a win even if in my view some of said information isn't terribly useful/relevant. I think I'll ask CCP how hard it would be to provide an option like what you've described, might make a lot of folks happy. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 286	Posted - 2015.03.28 17:03:00 - [1671] - Quote Lol, 83 pages and not a blue tag to be found, ladies and gentlemen, I declare this thread a success. Ebola makes me feel all warm and squishy inside.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4169	Posted - 2015.03.28 23:59:00 - [1672] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Lol, 83 pages and not a blue tag to be found, ladies and gentlemen, I declare this thread a success. As I've stated numinous times before, thread was not made to attract blue tags. I just talk to them directly while I manage the this thread myself. There have been more delays in the fix than I would like to be sure but sometimes that's just how development cycles go. Since I've had conversations with CCP on this subject as recently as yesterday I'm not overly concerned with them posting here and no one else should be either Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven Back and Forth 1270	Posted - 2015.03.29 08:34:00 - [1673] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Lol, 83 pages and not a blue tag to be found, ladies and gentlemen, I declare this thread a success. As I've stated numinous times before, thread was not made to attract blue tags. I just talk to them directly while I manage the this thread myself. There have been more delays in the fix than I would like to be sure but sometimes that's just how development cycles go. Since I've had conversations with CCP on this subject as recently as yesterday I'm not overly concerned with them posting here and no one else should be either Cheers, Cross Totally appreciate all that... but on the other hand, you could ask Rattati to poke his had in to just say hi, or, post a cat picture, whatever.... just so people can stop talking about the lack of a blue tag We all know how these forums work, a thread with no blue tag isn't real! P.S. Love you Cross Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4170	Posted - 2015.03.29 10:41:00 - [1674] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Lol, 83 pages and not a blue tag to be found, ladies and gentlemen, I declare this thread a success. As I've stated numinous times before, thread was not made to attract blue tags. I just talk to them directly while I manage the this thread myself. There have been more delays in the fix than I would like to be sure but sometimes that's just how development cycles go. Since I've had conversations with CCP on this subject as recently as yesterday I'm not overly concerned with them posting here and no one else should be either Cheers, Cross Totally appreciate all that... but on the other hand, you could ask Rattati to poke his had in to just say hi, or, post a cat picture, whatever.... just so people can stop talking about the lack of a blue tag We all know how these forums work, a thread with no blue tag isn't real! P.S. Love you Cross Operation "Cat Pic" alright, challenge accepted If you need me to legitimize my existence through use of a blue tag then so be it! /pretends to be huffy On a more serious note, just so I'm clear here, I'm the guy who created this thread and if you check the time codes you'll see I know well the frustration of waiting for a response. I firmly believe communication between CCP and the player base is important, but to accomplish that part of the reality is knowing there's no way all threads (even all large well read ones) can be responded to. That is in part one of the values I see in the CPM, facilitating communication beyond the scope of what CCP can accomplish on their own. Speaking of which, there's another hotfix upcoming, and I need to have a conversation about what's slated for it I'm hoping to get logi changes included on the list. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Mister Goo Random Gunz 193	Posted - 2015.04.06 04:18:00 - [1675] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Operation "Cat Pic" alright, challenge accepted If you need me to legitimize my existence through use of a blue tag then so be it! /pretends to be huffy On a more serious note, just so I'm clear here, I'm the guy who created this thread and if you check the time codes you'll see I know well the frustration of waiting for a response. I firmly believe communication between CCP and the player base is important, but to accomplish that part of the reality is knowing there's no way all threads (even all large well read ones) can be responded to. That is in part one of the values I see in the CPM, facilitating communication beyond the scope of what CCP can accomplish on their own. Speaking of which, there's another hotfix upcoming, and I need to have a conversation about what's slated for it I'm hoping to get logi changes included on the list. Cheers, Cross Any luck? Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4218	Posted - 2015.04.06 21:18:00 - [1676] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Operation "Cat Pic" alright, challenge accepted If you need me to legitimize my existence through use of a blue tag then so be it! /pretends to be huffy On a more serious note, just so I'm clear here, I'm the guy who created this thread and if you check the time codes you'll see I know well the frustration of waiting for a response. I firmly believe communication between CCP and the player base is important, but to accomplish that part of the reality is knowing there's no way all threads (even all large well read ones) can be responded to. That is in part one of the values I see in the CPM, facilitating communication beyond the scope of what CCP can accomplish on their own. Speaking of which, there's another hotfix upcoming, and I need to have a conversation about what's slated for it I'm hoping to get logi changes included on the list. Cheers, Cross Any luck? No, I've been a slacker. I've been working on the LP stores for FacWar and haven't enacted operations cat pick yet. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Vitantur Nothus 1960	Posted - 2015.04.06 22:07:00 - [1677] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I've been working on the LP stores for FacWar ... Idea!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4222	Posted - 2015.04.07 02:00:00 - [1678] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I've been working on the LP stores for FacWar ... Idea! I like ideas '/click' See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 2965	Posted - 2015.04.07 12:13:00 - [1679] - Quote I think the iterations need a once-over now that we have had some updates that affect logis, like bandwidth and increased max carried and such. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4228	Posted - 2015.04.07 14:18:00 - [1680] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I think the iterations need a once-over now that we have had some updates that affect logis, like bandwidth and increased max carried and such. Yah the posted links are on the dated side now. /puts it on the "To-Do" list See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 787	Posted - 2015.04.07 21:06:00 - [1681] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I think the iterations need a once-over now that we have had some updates that affect logis, like bandwidth and increased max carried and such. Yah the posted links are on the dated side now. /puts it on the "To-Do" list Yeah, and maybe I see it as a bigger project than it is, but essentially it is reworking the entire proposal, figuring out what new stuff to put on there, and what new stuff shouldn't be on there. Tough job. Being the judge of the final proposal and seeing what should reach CCP. - not that you have anything else to do right :) Is there something we can do to help? Rip, Cut, Paste a googledoc perhaps? Just let me know. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 1515	Posted - 2015.04.18 04:10:00 - [1682] - Quote Friendly bump. 'Operation Cat Pic' is now officially 'Operation Rattati Smoking From Sherlock Holmes Bubble Pipe Whilst Holding A Cat'. IF YOU CAN READ THIS YOU DON'T NEED GLASSES
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4358	Posted - 2015.04.18 21:27:00 - [1683] - Quote CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4358	Posted - 2015.04.18 21:29:00 - [1684] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I think the iterations need a once-over now that we have had some updates that affect logis, like bandwidth and increased max carried and such. Yah the posted links are on the dated side now. /puts it on the "To-Do" list Yeah, and maybe I see it as a bigger project than it is, but essentially it is reworking the entire proposal, figuring out what new stuff to put on there, and what new stuff shouldn't be on there. Tough job. Being the judge of the final proposal and seeing what should reach CCP. - not that you have anything else to do right :) Is there something we can do to help? Rip, Cut, Paste a googledoc perhaps? Just let me know. Thanks for the offer Red, as always I appreciate your work on behalf of the support community. I will let you know, I should have some more word on this thread/subject within a week or two. (now that the LP rework has stopped consuming all my time and the next cycle of cpm meetings should be concluded by sometime middle of next week) CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4364	Posted - 2015.04.19 17:03:00 - [1685] - Quote In the interest of conducting on going discussions even when they expand beyond the scope of a single thread or topic, and of giving us a place to hang out between out massive bouts of feedback, I've pitched us a tent over here. Drop by, bring other logis, stay awhile at listen ~Cross CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1010	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:43:00 - [1686] - Quote Putting on page 1 for some GD folks who were asking about logi stuff. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4591	Posted - 2015.04.27 07:15:00 - [1687] - Quote So my logi brothers and sisters, this is a thing that has happened. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5422	Posted - 2015.04.27 10:10:00 - [1688] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: So my logi brothers and sisters, this is a thing that has happened. That's a blank link for me. fortunately I found it when I quoted your post. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Mister Goo Random Gunz 194	Posted - 2015.04.27 12:18:00 - [1689] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: So my logi brothers and sisters, this is a thing that has happened. If you mean the big blank page, Yes that is exactly how I feel about where the logi is now. New things are nice, but the things that need to be fixed should be of more importance and I don't mean just the Logi class as a whole. The equipment updates that we have received in the last couple of updates have done nothing at all to help the logistics class. If anything it has only made it even less necessary than before. Bandwidth was nullified by allowing all classes to have 3x the equipment, now instead of thinking about putting out equipment, just put down new, because I have extra. We all know the changes needed to make the logistics class viable again and You and Red have done an awesome job of creating a balanced proposal for CCP to look at. They even have taken some of the ideas and implemented them for all classes to use. I don't care about a blue tag in the topic, but I would like to see something from the Dev team about a support class overhaul like they did with the other classes. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5423	Posted - 2015.04.27 12:40:00 - [1690] - Quote Last time I made a video about a problem in Dust, Rattati actually did something about it. I know in the podcast he talked about the logi update coming soon after warlords 1.1 and Echo 1.1 but he was still frustrated that the community flipped out over the sidearm. Maybe I should do the same for logistics progression. it's really not that hard. Give logistics the same slot layouts as assaults, give them all 4 equipment at proto, then take away one for Amarr at each tier and give it a sidearm. Also give Caldari some extra CPU. On top of the assault/logi speed flip this will make them more than viable. Done. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!

I-Shayz-I I----------I 5425	Posted - 2015.04.27 15:33:00 - [1691] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Cross Atu wrote: So my logi brothers and sisters, this is a thing that has happened. If you mean the big blank page, ? What page is blank, the link works for me. Is it broken for anyone else? Remove the bold, that worked for me. edit: putting the bold outside of the url tags works too, just not inside. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4595	Posted - 2015.04.27 15:34:00 - [1692] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Last time I made a video about a problem in Dust, Rattati actually did something about it. I know in the podcast he talked about the logi update coming soon after warlords 1.1 and Echo 1.1 but he was still frustrated that the community flipped out over the sidearm. Maybe I should do the same for logistics progression. it's really not that hard. Give logistics the same slot layouts as assaults, give them all 4 equipment at proto, then take away one for Amarr at each tier and give it a sidearm. Also give Caldari some extra CPU. On top of the assault/logi speed flip this will make them more than viable. Done. Wouldn't hurt to have a video out there too. The more vectors for transmission of reasoned viewpoints the more likely they are to be incorporated. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2705	Posted - 2015.04.28 00:30:00 - [1693] - Quote Listened to the recent Biomassed. Sounds like Rattati favours fitting advantages for Logis. That's a good thing, helps Logis be Logis and also addresses the Assault Logi issue. But it's only half the story imo. Logis need an equipment efficacy buff for all equipment, in addition to the racial bonuses to specific equipment. Doesn't have to, and shouldn't, be to big, but any Logi should get more and better performance out of equipment than any other suit. Also....now that we're swapping Logi and Assault suit speeds, Assaults should get a short-duration sprint buff, maybe 5 seconds, for cover-to-cover movement. PSN: RationalSpark
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5428	Posted - 2015.04.28 01:32:00 - [1694] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Also....now that we're swapping Logi and Assault suit speeds, Assaults should get a short-duration sprint buff, maybe 5 seconds, for cover-to-cover movement. I'm in favor of either reducing logi stamina, or increasing assault stamina. The way I think it should be: Assault: average mobility, high endurance Logi: high mobility, low endurance Currently it is: Assault: high mobility, average endurance Logi: average mobility, low endurance The biggest thing for slayers is the ability to keep moving and cross maps easily, and a simple stamina change will help prevent players from trying to use logistics as slayers. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2708	Posted - 2015.04.28 04:21:00 - [1695] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Also....now that we're swapping Logi and Assault suit speeds, Assaults should get a short-duration sprint buff, maybe 5 seconds, for cover-to-cover movement. I'm in favor of either reducing logi stamina, or increasing assault stamina. The way I think it should be: Assault: average mobility, high endurance Logi: high mobility, low endurance Currently it is: Assault: high mobility, average endurance Logi: average mobility, low endurance The biggest thing for slayers is the ability to keep moving and cross maps easily, and a simple stamina change will help prevent players from trying to use logistics as slayers. Good point, tho one must admit that the minsault has pretty solid stamina/regen atm. Still want to see that short-term sprint buff on the Assaults though, it's fundamental to the role and still leaves scouts with theirs. PSN: RationalSpark
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5430	Posted - 2015.04.28 04:33:00 - [1696] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Good point, tho one must admit that the minsault has pretty solid stamina/regen atm. Still want to see that short-term sprint buff on the Assaults though, it's fundamental to the role and still leaves scouts with theirs. ALL minmatar suits have insane stamina regen. It's their racial bonus. Same as how all amarr suits have a ton of base stamina, caldari all have the highest base shield regen, and gallente have the highest armor regen Although after the recent update with armor regen, gallente lost their unique racial bonus of having base armor regen (most suits had 0 regen), but they still have the highest. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
John Demonsbane Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 5147	Posted - 2015.04.28 16:55:00 - [1697] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Listened to the recent Biomassed. Sounds like Rattati favours fitting advantages for Logis. That's a good thing, helps Logis be Logis and also addresses the Assault Logi issue. But it's only half the story imo. Logis need an equipment efficacy buff for all equipment, in addition to the racial bonuses to specific equipment. Doesn't have to, and shouldn't, be to big, but any Logi should get more and better performance out of equipment than any other suit. Those ideas sound awfully familiar.... as if... Hmm, perhaps they've suggested ~~once~~ dozens of times before? (Yet again, my monthly check in reveals no progress on this matter.) (The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
John Demonsbane Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 5147	Posted - 2015.04.28 16:56:00 - [1698] - Quote BTW, Rattati hiding behind that ridiculous defense of "everyone went ballistic" when he tried to revamp the logi suits before is getting really old, not that it was an even remotely legitimate argument to begin with. How f*cking hard is it, really, to account for a sidearm? Particularly when the players in question have long showed a willingness to give up more than it's objectively worth? Give me a break. (The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1039	Posted - 2015.04.28 17:26:00 - [1699] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: How fcking hard is it, really, to account for a sidearm? Particularly when the players in question have long showed a willingness to give up more than it's objectively worth? Give me a break. Well put, John. Give ALL the logis sidearms, parity achieved! Give just the Amarr and Caldari sidearms, parity achieved! Take the Amarr sidearm OR look to further nerf the most UP class in the game in any other way more* , gross revenue drop will be achieved! Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1039	Posted - 2015.04.28 17:29:00 - [1700] - Quote btw, anybody have a TL;DL for the 2 hour clearing session there? Just overall highlights and relevant points-unless it's a 2 hour convo solely and specifically on Logis, in which case I'll make 2 hours for it. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR

Hawkings Greenback Dead Man's Game RUST415 342	Posted - 2015.04.28 21:57:00 - [1701] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: BTW, Rattati hiding behind that ridiculous defense of "everyone went ballistic" when he tried to revamp the logi suits before is getting really old, not that it was an even remotely legitimate argument to begin with. How fcking hard is it, really, to account for a sidearm? Particularly when the players in question have long showed a willingness to give up more than it's objectively worth? Give me a break. The reason people went 'ballistic' ( not that they did ) was because the 2 ideas to revamp the logi class, removing the Amarr sidearm & lowering the speed of the logi were just mind blowingly dumb. Well the speed reduction was anyway Unfortunately due to that perception that we all went "ballistic" the logi class has endured a period of being put in the naughty corner with vehicle users. Lets be honest I see more rage in one vehicle/av thread than I have in any logi thread. I agree with John, its a * poor argument to cover for a terrible idea. you are better than that Rattati dude. As for the side arm on logis, i'm pretty much meh on the thing now. Just look at all the ideas put forward & do something based on them. I understand time & people are commodities in the current game environment and priorities can change but if bandwidth is the only change for logis then that is **** up. But every night I burn. Screaming the animal scream. Every night I burn. Dreaming the crow-black dream.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1040	Posted - 2015.04.28 22:13:00 - [1702] - Quote ns, right? Only "ballistic" I remember was Meee One (rightfully, I might add) sounding off about the speed reduction. Everyone else for the most part was like,"What? No. Dumb. Next?" And instead we got bandwidthed. Bandwidthed because "spam" and "lag", neither of which was solved by bandwidth limits. Today? Bandwidthed the mail. Hope it works, between the matchmaker and the lag Dust feels less like a game and more like some twisted VR sim of being a member of Scientology. Couple levels more and I'll be ThetaPro and get to read the holy mail (only for 30 days) about Katu the Imprisoner freeing us all. For only 10000000000000000000000000000 jillion AUR. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 1560	Posted - 2015.04.29 03:24:00 - [1703] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: BTW, Rattati hiding behind that ridiculous defense of "everyone went ballistic" when he tried to revamp the logi suits before is getting really old, not that it was an even remotely legitimate argument to begin with. How fcking hard is it, really, to account for a sidearm? Particularly when the players in question have long showed a willingness to give up more than it's objectively worth? Give me a break. That was also before Rattati stopped taking *** from whiny little bastards. He now just glowers his cold viking death glare and they stfu. I think he would make more progress the second time around. IF YOU CAN READ THIS YOU DON'T NEED GLASSES
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 423	Posted - 2015.04.29 05:29:00 - [1704] - Quote I like the bandwidth idea. Still need to make Logis FASTER - same speed as their Assault racial counterparts. Still need to increase the equipment fitting bonus by another 5% or so. Still need to allow a 'quick swap' between the rep tool and the primary weapon (just like between the primary and secondary for Assaults). Still need to provide a 'magic glow' in the visuals for people being repped. Leave the Amarr Logis with their sidearms - they need all the help they can get... Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 357	Posted - 2015.04.29 06:01:00 - [1705] - Quote I like the idea of a logi being able to keep up with a heavy while they rep them, make logi's faster, heck being able to keep up with an assault would be better, they are the ones normally pushing points hard and still need the love like the big boys do. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5437	Posted - 2015.04.29 06:09:00 - [1706] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: btw, anybody have a TL;DL for the 2 hour clearing session there? Just overall highlights and relevant points-unless it's a 2 hour convo solely and specifically on Logis, in which case I'll make 2 hours for it. Skip to about 1:30:00 for the logi part. Maybe 1:35:00 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5442	Posted - 2015.04.29 10:20:00 - [1707] - Quote I made a thread for logistics progression https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=200663 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
John Demonsbane Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 5154	Posted - 2015.04.29 23:04:00 - [1708] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: ns, right? Only "ballistic" I remember was Meee One (rightfully, I might add) sounding off about the speed reduction. Everyone else for the most part was like,"What? No. Dumb. Next?" And instead we got bandwidthed. Bandwidthed because "spam" and "lag", neither of which was solved by bandwidth limits. Today? Bandwidthed the mail. Hope it works, between the matchmaker and the lag Dust feels less like a game and more like some twisted VR sim of being a member of Scientology. Couple levels more and I'll be ThetaPro and get to read the holy mail (only for 30 days) about Katu the Imprisoner freeing us all. For only 10000000000000000000000000000 jillion AUR. Well, no, I mean it's not like Rattati's making it up, the forums 100% went up in flames when he proposed taking away the Amarr logi sidearm. The thing is, it was a totally arbitrary decision in the first place, he said so himself. There's zero reason why you can't fix logi suit progression, at the very least, and leave the sidearm alone. But, whatever. It's not like I've bothered to play this game in the past 3 months. Not worth the headache of redoing every single fitting to account for bandwidth and the admittedly very intriguing potential of myofibs... if I had any desire to go back to the bunny hopping nonsense that ruled open beta and 1.0, that is. (The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4639	Posted - 2015.04.29 23:27:00 - [1709] - Quote I'm doing a spot check/review. Folks who have CalLogi proto fits please post your 1-3 tightest CPU fits. I need the whole fit used as well as the PG and CPU numbers (total and consumed). As well as the levels in relevant fittings skills (cpu, pg, logi, etc) for the fitted items. Thanks o7 CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Shiyou Hidiyoshi Ancient Exiles. 1392	Posted - 2015.05.08 06:01:00 - [1710] - Quote Dear, ugh logi, things... I request two things sweethearts 1. Thoughts on the scanner (because you logis use them more than any other class), do you think they are too strong, weak, spammed too much, last too long, should have ammo, blah balh blah? 2. Over 80 ******* pages yeah no, what is the TLDR version of any scanners discussions that have occurred in this thread or elsewhere? Personally, I believe scanners are too strong. In pubs and PC one or two people have the team lit up the whole game practically. EWAR is a very powerful thing to have as seen in the past with Scan514 (which still happens), Cal scout passives, changes to EWAR, cloaks, etc. I think scanners should have a bigger draw back for what they do but I have no experience with scanners so I am not going to go around declaring what should be done. I probably should though because in order to be accepted into the forum neckbeard cult, I have to show some level of ignorant bias opinion. "I don't always lock threads but when I do, I vigorously masturbat afterwards." - CCP LockingBro

Eno Rotarepo Passive ISK Gen 4	Posted - 2015.05.13 04:06:00 - [1711] - Quote . Yes, its an alt. Because Politics is a b!tch sometimes.
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3051	Posted - 2015.05.13 04:11:00 - [1712] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: Last time I made a video about a problem in Dust, Rattati actually did something about it. I know in the podcast he talked about the logi update coming soon after warlords 1.1 and Echo 1.1 but he was still frustrated that the community flipped out over the sidearm. Maybe I should do the same for logistics progression. it's really not that hard. Give logistics the same slot layouts as assaults, give them all 4 equipment at proto, then take away one for Amarr at each tier and give it a sidearm. Also give Caldari some extra CPU. On top of the assault/logi speed flip this will make them more than viable. Done. Wouldn't hurt to have a video out there too. The more vectors for transmission of reasoned viewpoints the more likely they are to be incorporated. EDIT: Amarr needs a bit of added PG as well. The Cal and Amarr are both below the Gal/Min in a single fitting stat. Isn't there some sort of CCP formula where a given slot on a given suit is worth X CPU and Y PG? Can't we just apply that formula to Logis with a slot rebalance? Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1114	Posted - 2015.05.13 04:37:00 - [1713] - Quote Shiyou Hidiyoshi wrote: Dear, ugh logi, things... I request two things sweethearts 1. Thoughts on the scanner (because you logis use them more than any other class), do you think they are too strong, weak, spammed too much, last too long, should have ammo, blah balh blah? 2. Over 80 ***** pages yeah no, what is the TLDR version of any scanners discussions that have occurred in this thread or elsewhere? Personally, I believe scanners are too strong. In pubs and PC one or two people have the team lit up the whole game practically. EWAR is a very powerful thing to have as seen in the past with Scan514 (which still happens), Cal scout passives, changes to EWAR, cloaks, etc. I think scanners should have a bigger draw back for what they do but I have no experience with scanners so I am not going to go around declaring what should be done. I probably should though because in order to be accepted into the forum neckbeard cult, I have to show some level of ignorant bias opinion. Yoshi, baby, its like this in here mostly: 1- Scanners are fine. If you've got the "You've been scanned" blues its time to vacate the area and flank wide from a different direction or tell that uber l337 GalScout assassin on your team to get to quit ***** around playing like an assault and kill the thick reddot in the yellow underwear standing still without a gun in his hands. 2- Best idea so far (and I don't think it was in here) is Sgt Kirk's about having the farthest (and widest) edge of the beam have a falloff similiar to the cocentric circle edges passive scans have. Search his posts or ask him. Since I'm here, did I miss the entry to the ReduceLogiPGThinkTank too? Hate registering for these things late... seats are all taken, half the required reading isn't available anymore unless I photocopy the pages from the reserve copy in the library and the whole time I know a 1/4 of the early enrollees in chairs are gonna drop by the time the first test comes. Dammit, my fault but still... Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1114	Posted - 2015.05.13 05:57:00 - [1714] - Quote ^cpu mod load change jacked my fits. Crisis averted. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4667	Posted - 2015.05.13 15:25:00 - [1715] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Isn't there some sort of CCP formula where a given slot on a given suit is worth X CPU and Y PG? If there is I've never heard of it. Further while there may be, buried somewhere, my own work with suits and balance has shown that any such formula which may exist does not get applied universally (or if it does it gets further modified afterword by situational effects). For example the racial logi do not all share the same PG and CPU values even though they share the same total number of slots at proto. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
RedBleach LeSanglant Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 815	Posted - 2015.05.16 02:28:00 - [1716] - Quote I put this in the Triage ward as well. :) If Any of you play with the Apex suits and have been entertained by the idea of Slot Progression Flattening I have made a small thread that seeks to question the fate of the Apex suit and what may be done in the future. Apex Suits and Slot Progression Solid post that I suggest you check out: Power Cores and Slot Progression Speed to HP ratios The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower


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