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Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 26	Posted - 2014.08.18 13:53:00 - [1] - Quote Proto Min Logi with level 5 in all support areas, links, hives, and repair. I want to start with Johns proposal I believe it is the most balanced Idea that has been proposed yet. it is well thought out and requires little change for CCP. John Demonsbane wrote: More importantly, there would be a huge fight (already starting a little) about who gets what bonus. LetGÇÖs just be totally honest, everyone wants the rep tool bonus. So, instead of having some massive 17 page flame war about why the Gallente should get it over the Amarr, or how they should both get it and take it away from the Minmatar, just give the damn bonus to everyone! This link has my proposal. Basically, every logi suit gets a small bonus to every type of equipment, while keeping its current primary bonus. That way we have an incentive to use a logi suit instead of a scout suit. My rep tool may not work as well as it would on a minmatar logi, but at least itGÇÖs measurably better than on some FOTM chaser in a scout suit. If people think this homogenizes the logi suits too much, I'm certainly not against buffing the primary bonus a little more to make up for it. ) John, I am behind your proposal, it is well thought out and makes all logi's better with all equipment. But still makes you choose where you want to be specialized. I am not an Amar Logi but I still believe that they should not loose their side arm. They are the combat Logi, they loose slots and have to stay alive to maintain their Links. Their choice of role specialization, and gives good diversity to the game. The equipment bonus to pg/cpu is not enough it needs to be increased, I would say doubled but that is probably excessive. Isk Cost of equipment is very prohibitive. Isk Comparison using all advance level items except 1 proto item. I put one proto item because we use the best for where we need the most. Advance M/1 logi Suit with six kin rep tool =69,285 Advance M/1 Logi Suit with BDR8 rep tool =58365 (trying to cut cost with adv repair tool) Advance M/1 Assaut Suit complex dmg mod =30,945 Advance A/1 Heavy Suit complex dmg mod =37,770 This is a problem!!! Repair Tools I have read some of the proposals for rep tool healing the logi's as a way to make up for less ehp. I agree but it needs to be regulated to only when the repair tool is out and actively being used on other team mates. Not when your solo or the target is at full health. It also does not need to be the full amount of the repair tool maybe 50%. Amount of armor repaired needs to be put back to original amounts before the nerf. That way every logi can out heal a frontline suit with militia weapon and damage mod. One last thought about all classes of suits. A militia or basic suit should not be able to use a proto level anything. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 26	Posted - 2014.08.18 15:46:00 - [2] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Advance M/1 logi Suit with six kin rep tool =69,285 Advance M/1 Logi Suit with BDR8 rep tool =58365 (trying to cut cost with adv repair tool) Advance M/1 Assaut Suit complex dmg mod =30,945 Advance A/1 Heavy Suit complex dmg mod =37,770 This is a problem!!! Repair Tools I have read some of the proposals for rep tool healing the logi's as a way to make up for less ehp. I agree but it needs to be regulated to only when the repair tool is out and actively being used on other team mates. Not when your solo or the target is at full health. It also does not need to be the full amount of the repair tool maybe 50%. Amount of armor repaired needs to be put back to original amounts before the nerf. That way every logi can out heal a frontline suit with militia weapon and damage mod. One last thought about all classes of suits. A militia or basic suit should not be able to use a proto level anything. You dumbass, you cut costs on the weapon, NOT on the repair tool. And second the repair tool shouldn't repair the repper as it will encourage ONLY armor tanking, active repping though should at least give a somewhat blanket resistance to damage for armor and shields, otherwise cal logis get boned and will discourage diverse fits. Name calling is NOT required. I know that you use a lower tier weapon to cut cost, I use my exile on most of my fits. When I want to save isk. I was showing all Advance tier items for comparison to the all advance tier Assault and Heavy Suits with 1 complex damage mod. I will agree that a Cal logi will be at a large disadvantage. I agree that rep tools would encourage armor tanking, so I am willing to go with a blanket resistance to damage. I used the armor repair because the main function of the repair tool is to repair armor and all suits have armor even cal logi's not much but some. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 26	Posted - 2014.08.18 17:00:00 - [3] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Bare in mind I am a Min logi and for my lows I run 2 complex reppers, and whatever plates will fit after I fill my highs ( 2 comp presicion, 2 comp shield ext) and equipment slots (all proto, injector, ish hive, flux links, and either the republic boundless or six kin repair tool) so the feedback repair from the repair tool would benefit me greatly (for a two target repair tool would you get double feedback?) because I could drop a repper and add a plate, but I don't want any changes made to this game that would make any particular build the "only" build. That is the reason for the resistance instead of the reps. P.S. Sorry about the dumbass comment, I meant it more playfully as opposed to insulting... ya dumbass I think only one feedback or it would really be OP. I use Lows 1 comp repper, 1 enhance armor, 2 comp armor High 1comp precision, 1adv energizer, 2 advance Shield extenders. equipment slots proto wyrikomi hives, ish hives,state needle and core focus or six kin. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 26	Posted - 2014.08.18 17:46:00 - [4] - Quote +1 Pokey Very good analyses of the current situation and side arm logis are not the answer. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 29	Posted - 2014.10.02 13:07:00 - [5] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: I may be in the minority here, but I have no desire to have a bonus to RE's, and am still confused why they are considered equipment when you unlock them with grenades... Your not the only one, as Logi Bro pointed out the rep tool is Minmatar equipment why wouldn't they have a bonus in using it. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 31	Posted - 2014.10.05 19:51:00 - [6] - Quote Cross, I can get behind method 4, It looks solid and also makes all logi's viable in PC for their reps. I still don't think that RE's are equipment, but Pokey has made some good points about their use. Also leveling out the PG and CPU of each suit is a good idea if they normalize the slot layouts. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 31	Posted - 2014.10.08 14:11:00 - [7] - Quote Cross, Any chance of getting price reductions on equipment? with the increase of damage by almost all weapons how about an equal repair tool increase? Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 86	Posted - 2014.12.05 17:26:00 - [8] - Quote Now that they have a way to change colors can we please change the logi color scheme and loose the bright yellow? If the enemy needs to know who the logi is let him look for the repair tool streams. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 101	Posted - 2014.12.12 21:59:00 - [9] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: We generally are already doing less damage than most of the other classes by virtue of those classes being bonused for damage one way or another. All this neutering of the combat efficiency of a suit whose role largely puts it in the thick of combat is extremely detrimental to the class overall. I'm not necessarily there to fight but at any point need to be capable of fighting. I do agree with el OPERATOR on this one. Peoples fear of slayer logi's is greatly unfounded. Even emptying all the equipment and fitting only shield and Armor modules you can not come close to the assault counterpart in ehp, movement, shield regen, and with the exception of the Amar Logi no side arm. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 104	Posted - 2014.12.13 06:55:00 - [10] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: I've skimmed over the document so far and I agree with most of it. What I'd like to talk about are Proximity Explosives. In their current state, they are a very resources intensive deployable; unlike Hives and Links which drop and do their thing, the PEs need to have a large number (usually at least six) to be effective and require a reasonably long time deployed for their value to be reward - and often are not at all. With the bandwidth system implemented I think it is reasonable to consider some fairly hefty alterations to their operation, to the following effect: - Change max active to be 2/3/4 through the tiers {{This change alongside the damage alteration allows a Logi to carry them and deploy them without having to spend several minutes organising a large minefield.}} - Change max carried to be 4/5/6 through the tiers {{This change is to assist with the persistent role of deployed equipment. May need to be higher carried, uncertain.}} - Change bandwidth usage to 4 Mbit/sec {{This change is to prevent spam and over saturation from rendering ground vehicles obsolete.}} - Change damage to 800/1000/1200 {{This, along with the bandwidth and active/carried changes should allow a Logi to mine an area reasonably effectively without needing to resort to carrying multiple sets persistently. Numbers may need adjusting: 4 PRO would not quite destroy an unfitted Soma (would have 40HP left, though this is not factoring in the potential Demolitions skill change or the MinLogi change), but I'd rather low ball the numbers at first.}} Essentially, the idea is to have PEs follow the ideal that deployable equipment be a constant activity and one that can move with the squad. The reduction to active/increase in power should see less need for large fields of PEs and the Bandwidth cost would prevent them from being 'fired and forgotten' by other frames: four PEs under this change would be the total deployable Mbit/sec for PRO Assaults and Commandos and more than a Scout could deploy. Anyway...thoughts? I like, maybe even change the PE further instead of placing only 1 mine for 800-1200 damage maybe have one drop spread out 3 mines totaling the 800-1200 damage to get better coverage for same damage profile. being able to cover the bridge with 3 mines instead of using 6. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.

Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 122	Posted - 2014.12.17 22:00:00 - [11] - Quote Cross I know it been a while since you have posted. Any chance you can give an update, are the devs looking into getting any logi changes out in the next update? Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 145	Posted - 2015.02.11 13:55:00 - [12] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: snip 3. Agreed. This is something I am advocating to CCP as part of the Logi revamp. snip We have 64 pages of Ideas, some good, some great, and some terribad. We have been talking about a logi revamp for months and have seen nothing other than the BW which effectively made a logi's job harder, with no benefit to the class. I know you have been advocating a change and I know it is on the Rattati's Big Board of Things. But it is not on the road map anywhere in the next 3 releases. Sooo Is this something that CCP / Rattati is looking at, or just something they hope posting here will pacify us. Right now I get the feeling that it is just a pacifying technique. Are you willing to say that there is some positive changes seriously being look at for the logi? You don't have to explain just a simple yes or no. Sadly I am beginning to agree with Mee One, and that sad. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 146	Posted - 2015.02.13 00:20:00 - [13] - Quote Cross Atu Yes it is being looked at. [:) wrote: To be blunt it has not happened as expediently as I would wish and as recently as this week I brought it up again because I believe it is long overdue. The Trello board is for patch level releases and the bulk of the logi fixes can be done via hotfix so it is still slated for sooner than it seems but I will redouble my efforts to make sure it does not get lost in the shuffle. Thank You, keep the flames on CCP because we need something soon. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 148	Posted - 2015.02.22 17:50:00 - [14] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I came here to try to solve a problem, not to play games with trolls. I don't know and don't care to know whatever it is you're getting at above. If you've something constructive to contribute, I'm all ears, but consider your hostilities ignored. Adipem, I think what el OPERATOR is implying is that you need to take your scout QQ about scanners back to the scout thread. It has nothing to do with improving the logistics class and does not need to be discussed in this thread. (If I'm wrong el OPERATOR I apoligize now) What I'm saying is stop trying to derail this thread with garbage that does not directly benefit the improvement of the logistics class. If it is so important to you, then start another thread in F&B and have a proper discussion there. If you want to help the Logistics class, great stay and participate with ideas that benefit us. If you want to QQ about the UP scout class do it else where. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 150	Posted - 2015.02.23 11:11:00 - [15] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Hi Mr Goo, I suspect that my goals and your goals are more intimately connected than you realize. OP Heavy/Logi blobs and OP GalLogi scans are two very goods reasons why not to buff the Logistics class, and the Logistics class might have been buffed sooner if its OP elements weren't playing leading roles in pubstomps and PC. Your expressed goal (a better Logi) and my expressed goal (balanced EWAR) are two variables in the same equation. We could be working together on this, and I see no reason why we shouldn't so long as balance remains a mutual goal. again you need to take your beef with the scanner into your own thread and discuss it properly there. Your feelings about the logistics class are clearly stated in the second statement of your reply. Both of these are very easily overcome by team work. No problem there, unless you don't play nicely with others. Now I will ask you again not to derail this thread with your QQ. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 150	Posted - 2015.02.23 11:23:00 - [16] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Gets it. Except the part about staying in the thread, that invite was rescinded the minute it was shown that the data being presented could not be accepted in good faith. Trying to play nicely , There are some very good suggestions from our brothers in arms that do not play the logistics class. I wanted to extend him the courtesy of being one of them. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 150	Posted - 2015.02.23 12:26:00 - [17] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Meee One wrote: Your post reads like a QQ post from GD. Logistics takes "no skill","it's boring",etc. And i'm not falling for it. I've found your problem (see underlined). You either: -are limiting your attention to repairing purposely -are running frequently with a camping squad -have never run a front-line logistics,because repping on the front-line is much more exciting than on the back-line where no opponents are -are a bad logistics for keeping your repair tool on a fully healed ally while others need reps too The problem isn't with the grossly underpowered repair tools,it's with your playstyle. Try running solo in ambush and Dom,but avoid skirm like a plague. I'll agree to an overheat right after all weapons get one,because the repair tools are the only things that logistics has that isn't nerfed to smithereens. And a "lolskillful" overheat would destroy them. You obviously have no Idea how I play the game. I do not run with heavies, because it's pretty boring in general. If I latch to heavies or other slayers, It's mostly to get a lot of skillpoints while having a booster active, to cap faster or reach a skill target. I think there should be a mechanic that discourages constant latching on to a slayer, therefore I propose the overheat mechanic. The overheat wouldn't hurt anybody who is constantly switching targets on the frontline, so what's your problem? The overheat would just discourage the behaviour you are describing, get it? The changes I propose, would make the reptool even more powerful in the hands of a non lazy logi! I don't agree with an overheat on the repair tool. I do agree that there are to many logi's that stay latched on even when not needed, so they don't miss that extra 35 points for a kill. There needs to be something to discourage a perma latch when not receiving fire. Instead of the hard cap on WP we currently have now maybe change it to a diminishing returns system receiving 0 WP after a set time. lower the 35 guardian points to a 25 the same as a kill assist, and when repair time reaches 0 so do guardian points. The overheat/seize mechanic would be deadly. Imagine a large push on your objective, you have multiple people simultaneously attacking. Your heavy is using objects to block incoming fire as he is supposed to do and not continually pushing out, but letting them come to him. To keep him alive you have to keep the continuous stream on him. Now the overheat kicks in and 1second later your both dead. The overheat mechanic on weapons is different than on a repair tool simply because the attacker can choose to disengage and back off letting team members continue the push. A Repair tool in a defensive position is the only thing keeping both of you alive and you are not given a choice to stop repairing if you want to live. 1 individual against a heavy/logi combo should have no chance, except with a todays current meta of throwing a RE. 2 against a heavy/logi combo will be a fight if they work together. If they don't, they loose. Core Locus fully maxed with min bonus is 156.25 reps per second @ 11.25 meters. Six Kin Maxed with min bonus is 98.75 reps per second @22.5 meters VS Militia Assault Rifle no bonuses 370.8 Damage per second vs Armor (average weapon) Militia Laser Rifle no Bonuses 170 Damage per second vs Armor (worst weapon for armor) There is no way to out repair any weapon if there is 2 or more attacking simultaneously. With out using good communication, tactics, and a constant running repair tool. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2015.02.23 13:05:00 - [18] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Well, I proposed a relatively long period of constant repping (1min) that should be enough to fight of several incoing mercs (more than 2-3). If you play the overheated tool right, you would have even better chances to fight two incoming heavies at once. When on cooldown, you could give firesupport with the logi (you carry a weapon do you). I had good success using a MD in those situations, since it has a good shock and awe effect on many mercs. If you have two incoming MinSents with burst HMGs your Heavy is toast anyway, and you are better of to run your ass of and get to safety... Should is the key word here, and when 1 minute is not long enough to stop a prolonged push your both dead. As soon as you overheat that small battle is over for your team, you loose the objective and have to retake it. And before you aak I have pro links down to spawn back in. Yes I have weapons and I use them when I have to. CR lvl 5 pro Assault lvl 5 pro Mass Driver lvl 5 pro Some points you have very little choice of running away, and when you are given the order by your commander to hold that point no matter what, YOU DON'T RUN AWAY. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2015.02.23 13:47:00 - [19] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: My point is the uselessness of the reptool in certain situations. And do you really think that reptool is making a difference for your heavy when he has to counter two incoming burst HMGs that know what they're doing? I doubt it. I'd rather have the logi shoot the heavies too to soften them... and only switching to his tool just in time before my shields go down or for a push... These I do agree with, and try to do myself. No the rep tool is not going to make a difference vs 2 Burst HMG's But still no reason to to implement an overheat mechanism. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2015.02.23 14:33:00 - [20] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Well, I like it, because it give more capabilities, I wouldn't mind it being a variant (maybe specialist) that give more output, at the expenso of overheat. Thus performance and skill would show which variant would be used most... I agree with a variant version, it is a great compromise. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.

Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 158	Posted - 2015.02.27 13:57:00 - [21] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: I NEED TO FIND AS SCANNING RESOURCE - I don't want to just dump number hunting onto you, I'd rather have some of my own answers. - I remember looking at one. I'll have to find it. Here are two: Borrowed from Barbershop Borrowed from Haerr To the best of my knowledge, Protofit's EWAR values are also up-to-date. So I see you have continued to successfully derail our thread, QQing about the imbalance of the scout. Please for the love of god ignore this poor scout so we can continue on with the logistics and support. If he wants to discuss this he can START HIS OWN THREAD IN F&B, or better yet go to the barbershop where he belongs. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 158	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:55:00 - [22] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Agreed. An overheat that seizes the repair or more diminished returns with WP are not the answer. It is a barrier to new logis that creates a steep learning curve and will also lead to cursed frustration whenever that limit is reached in battle. Especially in a situation where those reps would have allowed your team to hold a point, survive, or turned the tide of battle. Overheat no. A warm up capacitor to reward actual repping - meaning that when it is repairing it is increasing in efficiency and when it is tethered but not repping it begins to cool down - is a method that rewards active repping with a direct battle effect. This affects repping behavior and has a greater possibility to lead to the desired behavior of smart repping rather than "leashing" an entire match. That said - you can't force anyone to play the way you want them to. All we can do is provide tools and allow players to use them however they see fit. You will have that guy that is dedicated to pistols, RE's, LZR, or other situational/unique items and we cant change that. All that can be done is to give fair rules of play for all. An overheat is punishing to a class that draws players for the reason that they don't want to/or have to shoot, or they are just not good at it. But being able to leash another player, help out, and provide other support may fill that need of fun, purpose, or entertainment that we all seek by playing games, and that's perfect for people like me. I believe that the majority of users would find the overheat a bane to the class and alienate players even further. While it is unique, and may offer a minority of users a new thrill for a while the permanency of such a change, and how that might affect future changes in the mechanics of other items is not something that can be supported. Capacitors or warm up mechanics maybe. Seizing/stopping/arresting/halting/etc.... just no. Overheat is a flat NO I agree. I like your idea with the capacitor, but I think it should be introduced as a variant at each level and see how it works in realtime vs what we envision. You know how things tend to get jumbled up when introduced. That way tweaks can be made until it is right. I would like to see it at about 225 reps per second at Proto. A little more than half of the sustained DPS of a basic assault rifle. I understand your not wanting more diminishing returns in WP for repairing, Right now there is a hard cap set (I don't remember what it is ). I suggested the diminishing returns as an alternative to a hard cap so we still receive points for repairing the whole time. I have changed my suggestion of stopping at 0. Examples numbers are negotiable. 1min 25 points 2min 20 points 3min 10 points 4min 5 points 5min or longer 1point. The hard drop between 2 and 3 minutes is to encourage releasing the lock when not in direct combat. To reset the timer, lock on should be dropped for 5 (maybe longer) seconds, to force a release. This should stop the release and quickly re-lock to reset WP acquisition. Forcing you to stop repairing for an extended time if you want better WPs, not just keep going and resetting every time your target is hit or they kill someone. I also believe that Guardian points should be dropped to 25 the same as an assist and should follow the same diminishing returns as the repair tool. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 158	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:34:00 - [23] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Here is a merc (Redbleach) who wants to better understand EWAR and EWAR balance from the perspective of the EWAR units opposite his role. As his proposal includes significant EWAR changes, does it not stand to reason that he might benefit from new found pertinent knowledge? "No knowledge is to be despised." - Joseph Needham Again start your own thread and put all this knowledge you speak of there. This way not only RedBleach can learn but so can everyone else, or are you afraid of what the rest of the community will say to you? I will grant that the information is interesting and a good read but it is derailing this thread. I will even give you a title for your new thread. " Gal Logistics bonus VS Scout in ewar and how to properly balance it." Then everyone in the community will have the opportunity to give and receive information, not just the individuals interested in this thread. I am not against discussing this topic intelligently but lets make a thread specifically for it. It does not effect 3/4 of the logistics team because only the Gal Logi has the bonus. So your discussion needs to be moved from an overall discussion to a more specific discussion in its own thread. Than as RedBleach Gains more knowledge about the subject he can change his proposals and have a specific thread to reference when he needs specific answers. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 159	Posted - 2015.02.28 15:36:00 - [24] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Logis DEFINATELY DON'T need to get their survivability buffed. Good Logis are already always on top of the killboard with low deathcounts because of the massive amounts of WPs we can farm without taking too many risks. If you do your job right, you won't have many issues surviving as a Logi. Logis are the weakest combat suits but not entirely defenseless, and it should remain like that. Jebus, I agree with everything else you have listed, but it sounds like you have an issue with the ability to earn WP. When your using your repair tool no matter how good you are you still need to right in the middle of everything, more so because your on point with the Heavys and Assaults. If your team mates have to go around a corner you have to go with them. Assuming your playing as a team and not soloing. A Logi's WP come from many sources All of which are available to every class. The logi race bonus helps improve the use of their specific piece of equipment. Just the same as the the other roles have bonuses that improve their capabilities. Assaults bonuses to light weapons, Heavies resistance to specific types of damage, Scouts bonuses to damps and precision, Commandos bonuses to damage output of light weapons. Repair Tool is the best source of WP, and non logi's usually won't carry one with some exceptions. I have watched a scout use and out repair me just because of how well they can move around, probably another logi just using a faster suit to do his job better. I have personally used a Commando to run reps that is also interesting and a change of pace, and I still did just as well with WP and I had a better KD as well. Drop Links, any one can use one, drop it in a good spot and you will see the points. Nano Injector All suits get the same WP for reviving a team mate. I like working in a squad because my Assaults and Scouts will carry one to revive me when I am killed, because I carry the hives they need to replenish . I wish more people would use them that run solo, but I understand that they need to support themselves and carry hives for resupply. Nano Hives, most people carry one, especially if they solo. I think that the Nano Hive needs an increase in capacity because the basic hive can not even fully restock 2 people. Scanners, If you want to see where the enemy is you use your equipment slot for a scanner to show your team mates where to go and earn the points from intel assists. Anybody, except a heavy, can use the equipment and get the same results as a logi. Dust is unlike any other shooter out their because it includes a viable and important support role. But that support role needs to be able to survive just as well as any other suit. We are not asking for a large increase to ehp, like Pokey suggested 50-60 is a good spot. There are a lot of times that the kill board has logi's on top, I am there a lot when I play with a good squad. When playing with a squad you will notice that usually the whole squad is very close to the same rankings on the kill board. This is because of the synergy of the group and having the ability to have everything they need, spread between their squad mates. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 159	Posted - 2015.02.28 16:02:00 - [25] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Overheat is a flat NO I agree. I like your idea with the capacitor, but I think it should be introduced as a variant at each level and see how it works in realtime vs what we envision. You know how things tend to get jumbled up when introduced. That way tweaks can be made until it is right. I would like to see it at about 225 reps per second at Proto. A little more than half of the sustained DPS of a basic assault rifle. I understand your not wanting more diminishing returns in WP for repairing, Right now there is a hard cap set (I don't remember what it is ). I suggested the diminishing returns as an alternative to a hard cap so we still receive points for repairing the whole time. I have changed my suggestion of stopping at 0. Examples numbers are negotiable. 1min 25 points 2min 20 points 3min 10 points 4min 5 points 5min or longer 1point. The hard drop between 2 and 3 minutes is to encourage releasing the lock when not in direct combat. To reset the timer, lock on should be dropped for 5 (maybe longer) seconds, to force a release. This should stop the release and quickly re-lock to reset WP acquisition. Forcing you to stop repairing for an extended time if you want better WPs, not just keep going and resetting every time your target is hit or they kill someone. I also believe that Guardian points should be dropped to 25 the same as an assist and should follow the same diminishing returns as the repair tool. That is a positive suggestion. If I understand you correctly you are wanting some incentive mechanic to make a logi disengage for a moment, an incentive to look up and take note of the situation. I feel like the numbers may need adjusting for the initial time, some intense battles where you are just pinned down can take 2-3 minutes before there is a lull enough to feel confident in dropping the lock. Maybe moving the Hard drop to the 3 Min mark. That said a 2xstreamer sucks to re-engage when you finally just got the two people you needed locked in the swarm of moving bodies. I can't say that I'm on board but I do appreciate the work you put into it.[/quote] Thank you, Yes that is part of what I want, but I would like to loose the hard cap set on repairing. I think that we should get some small credit for all the repairs we do. I think in the end it would be about the same earnings in WP, Just a different approach. There are times that you just don't release the stream because if you do a clone dies, probably 2 clones to be honest. I agree with you about the 3 minute mark now that I look at it. An adjustment for the 3 Min mark. 1Min= 25 2MIn=20 3Min=15 4Min=05 5Min=01 Yes, until CCP fixes the function of the repair tool lock on it does suck. The first stream is usually easy but the second one, your right is very difficult to lock onto the right person. Then you have to drop lock and start over again, LOL. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 159	Posted - 2015.02.28 16:20:00 - [26] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: yes, Thank you for your help. It was the Haerr page I was looking for. Proto fits is great for current values, but testing values I needed to find the formulas again, thank you. And This thread is about balancing logis, and balance applies to the entirety of the game and how this role affects all else in the game. While I get that some feel this conversation is derailing the thread I cant fully agree and point to the lack of other activity. Few were taking action, posting, providing numbers, and working on something - even if it is disagreed upon - creating a presentation or summation of works or opinions. This conversation about the GAL LOGI vs scout sparked a conversation. It was this conversation that helped me start work on defining the logi again and reworking some proposal numbers - THAT HAVE STOOD STAGNANT FOR MONTHS from the original post, even after several updates. I may or may not agree with many of the opinions here, but without opposition or discussion there can be no growth, nothing more to give CCP or the CPM. I have tried to bring the discussion into focus several times and received little to no feedback except from the "Scout guy" - who has actually looked at some of my work, Helped with numbers, and provided Feedback. el OPERATOR was it not you that wanted the Logi to be better at EWAR? I'm working on it, Gal Logi applies, how it affects scouts applies. If it wasn't you, perhaps Meee One. Eitherway, I'm getting values, working with someone to see how that would play out in game. But maybe this should go to another Thread as has been suggested. I understand your concerns and how you have felt about this discussion and I can agree that sometimes certain posts have been more scout centric. I feel that this discussion applies to our logi balance, and I will continue to work on the numbers until I have some numbers that can better reflect the desires of the logi community and be realistic enough to garner approval from the DEVs rather than having it dismissed because it was too OP or did not take into account other game factors. I do this for the team. I would appreciate your help. The community has my apologies. RedBleach, I appreciate what your trying to do, especially trying to get a balanced set of numbers. I even appreciate when "the Scout Guy" gives you a good source to use. A lot of times I don't give direct feedback (yes I know its bad) unless it is something that is drastically off. I happen to like your proposal and even like your suggestion for the heat up of the repair tool. I don't like most of the non logi suggestions for "fixing the repair tool". Keep up the good work, your doing a beneficial job for the Logi community at large and trying very hard not to overpower the Logi suit. Yes I have been very vocal about the Gal logi scanner bonus VS the Scout being in a separate thread. IMHO if it is to be discussed as deeply as Adipem wants, it needs to be in its own thread. This is so that the entire community can respond and debate the perceived balance / imbalance between them. From that thread you can get all the information you need and be able to refer back to it and post links to the specific posts you need as examples. Keep up the good work. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 163	Posted - 2015.03.01 05:57:00 - [27] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: 2/27/2015 Defining the class - Base Stats Addressing the RedBleachproposal again HP Regen Part of the Original discussions for Cross' proposal concerning health and stamina pools were whether a logi should have a greater pool or higher recharge rates. We usually see the progression in HP as Higher HP Pools = Lower Shield Recharge rates and with Stamina we see the same but logis are continually the exception and messing up the Battle Standard. To be randomly made weaker to explain carrying equipment I guess.... BUT that only works IFF all logi suits were distinctly different from a scout with 2 EQ. But currently there is a lack of balanced reasons for the current setup. In many ways the logi has stats closer to Scout and assault and at other times closer to the sentinel and commando sides. This is common knowledge to this community, I know. I'm just trying to think where the line should be drawn. HP Pool: Current Sentinel> Commando> Assault> Logi> Scout Each Logi gains about 60hp total Shield regen amount: Current Scout> Assault> Logi> Commando> Sentinel - Cal is outlier. Disparity was too great. A greater value than the Assaults is in order because of Lower HP Amount is now between Assault and Scout. Shield delays: Scout> Logi> Assault> Commando> Sentinel - Cal is outlier. Maintained but closer to scout than Assault. Stamina pool and rate are: Scout> Assault> Logi> Commando> Sentinel Previously decided to have larger Stamina pools between that of an assault and scout (we do just lug crap everywhere) and lesser recovery rate than an assault. Stamina Pool is between Scout and Assault now: Scout> Logi> Assault> Commando> Sentinel Stamina Recovery Rate: Scout> Assault> Logi> Commando> Sentinel Armor regen should be better for a logi due to the nature of the class, but this doesn't follow HP pool rules with all classes. That would mean that sentinels would have the highest repair rate and scouts the lowest, but it turns out that commandos and Logis were on par with repair rates and sentinels were just above scouts. Bizarre So, Armor repair rates are now the best between all the classes. Scanning profiles kept the same. Scanning precision up ( technically down): Able to detect the micro deformities in the ships they work on per lore :) = High F-ing Precision. Scan Radius Increased to Allow the Logi to be the master of Ewar Scanning. Movement Speed faster walk, slower sprint. I like the changes, but just curious about the ewar change why better than the scout? Their role is supposed to be recon, even though they play fast assault more. I don't mind being able to see more and further just kind of stomping on some toes, I think. All the rest are solid and needed. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 163	Posted - 2015.03.01 06:58:00 - [28] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Perhaps the Scout's role was once recon, but this is certainly not the case today. You are quite right, scouts decided that they needed to be fast assaults and have become more aggressive and In your face. According to you this was decided and vetted in the Barber Shop. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 165	Posted - 2015.03.02 06:19:00 - [29] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: Alright, I've gone ahead and hidden el operator's posts for now, since he doesn't seem interested in talking about logistics at all. Sorry for being melodramatic, I just want to actually talk about logis. So I've actually played a fair bit of logi (mostly during the days of chromosome) and I've been playing them a lot more recently but I'm still pretty foggy on what the actual balance issues are currently. Since they aren't combat suits their effectiveness has to be evaluated completely differently from how you would most other suits. I want to try and figure out exactly the issues are but I don't have time to read through all 72 pages of this thread so, again, sorry if you've heard all of this before. - A properly fitted logistics suit costs way more than a properly fitted combat suit - Logistics suits curve out poorly from STD to PRO because of the number of equipment slots - Logi bonuses are lackluster and too focused on individual equipment - Most support equipment has been nerfed without compensation to the logi suits themselves - Logistics is harder to get into than other roles because of the sheer SP investment required - Nanite injectors are much less useful than they used to be What am I missing? For perspective, the logi stuff I have access to and use is an ADV minlogi with proto repper, advanced nanohive, advanced drop uplinks, and advanced nanite injector. If your going to honestly try to give input you need to at least look at the spreadsheet proposals Cross has linked to on page one and you also need to look at the most current proposal that RedBleach has done. If your not going to waste our time and yours this will give you a good idea of where things stand now. Of course we don't have any blue tags to give us an idea of what they are thinking. Not meaning to be harsh, but if you don't look at whats all ready been done your wasting a lot of time rehashing what has been talked about. I welcome your input as long as it stays in balancing the Logi class and I do mean balance not creating another problem that takes months to fix. I think Cross's and RedBleach's proposals are real close to what is needed. Im not sure that I agree with RedBleach's current Ewar metrics for the Logi, IMHO they take too much from the scouts. But everything else is in a good place. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 165	Posted - 2015.03.02 06:29:00 - [30] - Quote If you start on about page 70 you can see a link to RedBleach's proposal and see some of the discussion on the repair tool. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.

Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 165	Posted - 2015.03.02 14:01:00 - [31] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: Will do. I had assumed the OP was out of date but this looks good. Re: Nanite injectors, has there been any thought given to making them like the BF3 revive system? As in player hits you with the revive tool and then you've given the option to respawn? At least then you don't have to rely on people asking for pickups to use your injector. I know Rattati's got a soft spot for the battlefield series too. It has been discussed, most of us like it, it wasn't us that asked for the X-if you want picked up. We all wanted what you suggested, it just makes more sense. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 165	Posted - 2015.03.02 14:04:00 - [32] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: I know it may have already come up, but for the last few months, what little I've been playing is logi, and one thing I could get behind is increasing the equipment slots for STD and ADV. (Note I mean Equipment, not Mod slots). Obviously alter PG/CPU a little, though my Advanced logi wouldn't need much more. Though other than that I've been finding my logi to be pretty darn good. That's just a suggestion for a buff for the below proto suits, I'm not going to get into a discussion on the proto suits as I only run logi for the extra ISK and thusly don't run proto. Again take the time to review what is proposed. Cross's spreadsheet proposal is on page 1 And RedBleach's spreadsheet proposal can be found on page 70 and if you read there is some discussion of repair tools mechanics and slot layout. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 175	Posted - 2015.03.03 15:40:00 - [33] - Quote Meee One wrote: The main problem with costs of equipment is that there's such a huge gap in tier performance. BDR-8:75 on a single target Six Kin:88 on two targets. Thats 13x2 hp/s loss. On weapons the change in damage is maybe 1 point per tier. I think ADV should get 2 targets,with the Pro having higher reps. It would make ADV not feel as worthless by comparison. ------ I'd like any possible updates if available. you forgot the price comparison BDR-8= 8070 ISK Six Kin = 2163 ISK Thats why when I try to cut costs I use the Core Repair tool. 70 HPS 13215 ISK It is worth the extra 5000 ISK for the two streams. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz 177	Posted - 2015.03.11 19:39:00 - [34] - Quote Hot fix Echo is giving us some small improvement to the equipment. The addition of 3x to each deployable equipment type(Hives, Links, and proxies) will be a big benefit to everyone not just the logi's. With the exception for Drop Links which they are adding the extra links but cutting the total spawn count in half. This will now make the Amar Bonus a bigger thing. To be honest, I was hoping for a better pass on the logi frame as a whole. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz 177	Posted - 2015.03.11 22:35:00 - [35] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I'm just going to take a run at the last page or so, there's new input in- HP- This a given (evidently), we need more, agreed. Sidearms- Leave my AmLogi alone and give one to my Cal. And cpu for that Cal, btw. Slot Parity- I'm still a no on this, IMO slot differences between Logi and Assault frames reinforce not just the differences in the suits' roles but also in their fitting needs. Which is a good thing. Capacitors- **** no. Never. We already have Bandwidth which limits how much eq we can use at once, as well as fixed nanite counts which limit the output of hives AND hard cooldowns after use for our active equipment. For ex. even if I don't scan an area for the entire time that I could (snapshot) my scanner still becomes inactive and cools for the full cooldown period. This is functionally superior to gameplay than a capacitor system that would allow me to "pepper" an area with "snapshot scans" almost ceaslessly but for the momentary gap in between while the capacitor "recharges" or having a "capacitor" fueled bottomless well to spam CoreNades from. Bandwidth Avail Meter Visibility- Totally overdue, belongs in the HUD. That it wasn't included in some fashion at the point of BW rollout speaks volumes about the lack of full idea vetting at the development level. Not to crack too hard on Ratt/CCP, but wtf ppl? How did you not realize the need for that AND after posting the idea and the deployment intent how did you ignore the droves of players that pointed out the need for one? Bandwidth in general never should have been released without it. I think thats it, flame away! HP = Yes Sidearms I agree with you Slot Parity on the fence, I can see benefits of both sides. Capacitors, I would like to see it as a variant but not a total replacement Bandwidth meter = Yes Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz 188	Posted - 2015.03.27 21:05:00 - [36] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Don't get me wrong, you get me scout speeds I'll take them. However the minute that happens it'll be a high-likelihood situation that every slayer in the game will begin running a Logi because they'll have the speed. The real speed buff we should be looking for should be for Movement versus Sprinting. We should WALK faster, since with a repper we can't sprint, but not neccessarily RUN faster. And when I mean Assaults run faster I mean (gonna use some random numbers here) if the Assaults' sprint speed is 7m/s, then ours is 6.85m/s. They're technically faster and across a long run they'll outpace us BUT we're still right in there with them for a bit.If the Logi wants/needs more then its mod time. Now, our stamina pools and regen periods should be way more effective than scouts or assaults and the combo of the two (speedbuff w/the stampool+regen buff) would get us where we should be. EDIT- Thinking this through some more I see how it may just be easier for all involved to just swap those speeds (the Assault and Logi) for sprinting, scouts will still be waay faster anyway. I still don't think its the best idea and that walking speed buffs should really be what we're after BUT whatever. More than anything else I just want us to avoid getting overbuffed, subsequently nerfed and finally ending up post-nerf worse than we were prior to buffing. Amen Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz 193	Posted - 2015.04.06 04:18:00 - [37] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Operation "Cat Pic" alright, challenge accepted If you need me to legitimize my existence through use of a blue tag then so be it! /pretends to be huffy On a more serious note, just so I'm clear here, I'm the guy who created this thread and if you check the time codes you'll see I know well the frustration of waiting for a response. I firmly believe communication between CCP and the player base is important, but to accomplish that part of the reality is knowing there's no way all threads (even all large well read ones) can be responded to. That is in part one of the values I see in the CPM, facilitating communication beyond the scope of what CCP can accomplish on their own. Speaking of which, there's another hotfix upcoming, and I need to have a conversation about what's slated for it I'm hoping to get logi changes included on the list. Cheers, Cross Any luck? Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz 194	Posted - 2015.04.27 12:18:00 - [38] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: So my logi brothers and sisters, this is a thing that has happened. If you mean the big blank page, Yes that is exactly how I feel about where the logi is now. New things are nice, but the things that need to be fixed should be of more importance and I don't mean just the Logi class as a whole. The equipment updates that we have received in the last couple of updates have done nothing at all to help the logistics class. If anything it has only made it even less necessary than before. Bandwidth was nullified by allowing all classes to have 3x the equipment, now instead of thinking about putting out equipment, just put down new, because I have extra. We all know the changes needed to make the logistics class viable again and You and Red have done an awesome job of creating a balanced proposal for CCP to look at. They even have taken some of the ideas and implemented them for all classes to use. I don't care about a blue tag in the topic, but I would like to see something from the Dev team about a support class overhaul like they did with the other classes. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.

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