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Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1148	Posted - 2014.09.17 10:58:00 - [511] - Quote Z3dog wrote: Please leave logistics suits stats exactly as they are right now. Slots, pg, cpu, etc. 0/10 If logistics made up for its lack of eHP with evasion. And lack of offense with damage resistance while holding equipment,i would agree. But everyone,and i mean everyone,always targets logistics first. Yet,even though this fact is obvious CCP and the players think that they need nothing extra to survive as public enemy #1. It's downright lunacy. If i were going to throw something into a pit of lava,i would do my best to fireproof it first. Not just pick up the worst suited thing to do the job either. Logistics,right now in its current situation can't effectively survive to do its job. Remember slayer logis? How bad assaults were by comparison? Logistics has been this bad for a while,but it was masked over by the slots and reps. With reps removed,all logistics had was slots. Now,assaults have those slots. Logistics still has equipment right? No,scouts have that equipment. A basic Cal Logistics only has 2 equipment,just like scouts. But the logistics,the one designed to carry equipment the best,must lose speed,a weapon and base stats. Yet, the "assassin" suit,the one designed to get stealth kills the best,has high speed,high regen,and both weapons,with 0 reduction to base stats. Logistics has been,and still is being torn apart. The benefits of being logistics are being given to everyone,yet only logistics must suffer any penalties for those same privileges. It's the most craziness i've witnessed anywhere else,peoples justification for this insanity is "it's balanced if logistics suffers for those perks,but horribly broken if assaults or scouts do". It always leaves me dumbfounded at the sheer ignorance and hypocrisy they display,just to play favorites. TL;DR Logistics has been broken for a while it's obvious,and becomes more so with each "update". Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1151	Posted - 2014.09.18 05:38:00 - [512] - Quote Another way to buff support is to make them needed. For example,if you go into a serious PC without logistics you're going to lose. Pubs and FW? Not so much. How can logistics importance be stressed? -disable suit swapping at supply depots. No insta refills. -remove ammo refills from supply depots for infantry. Vehicles are OK. -to compensate,give logistics +1 or +2 deployables carried per level,except REs and proxies...unless logistics is supposed to be the demolitions class (it is) Now you have a scenario where the team with the logistics will win by sheer attrition. Just an idea. Also,increase all logistics equipment slots to 4 across all teirs. Cal logistics has suffered long enough. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1151	Posted - 2014.09.18 05:50:00 - [513] - Quote I just had a crazy idea... would it be OP to buff logistics walking speed to match their base running speed So logistics would move at a constant rate, or could equip kincats to run faster. This would be a boon to us non tanking rep tool users. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2808	Posted - 2014.09.18 05:59:00 - [514] - Quote Meee One wrote: Any updates? I've noticed a lack of CPM responses,and 0 Dev responses... (GèÖn++GèÖG£+) I have had an incredibly hectic time IRL lately and so my time has been pretty thin. (Meetings with CCP are on going of course, as are my efforts to gather feedback, but this leaves my time to respond highly limited) With the current hotfix cycle changes are more likely to show up in smaller portions than sweeping blocks. Currently I am revving up to test the new matchmaking during the million clone event (what? I play this game ) after which I will once again be devoting more of my free time, such as it is, to this thread and an updated evaluation on the state of play for support in Dust. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2808	Posted - 2014.09.18 06:03:00 - [515] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: This morning when I was picked up twice with a Red standing 20m in front of me in plain sight, I got the idea that there should be a -25 WP penalty if you pick someone up and they die again within 5 seconds. My role in the context of the Support class: Victim! I consider the guy who picked me up twice without clearing the area to be an accomplice to my repeated murder. Maybe if there was a penalty for such negligence people would learn? Mandatory 'request revive' would help prevent this. While request revive would be helpful it is also worth noting that aside from the thoothless KDR stat there is no loss in such situations. Are they frustrating? Yes of course. However no fits or clones are lost until bleed out so the net effect is actually tactically advantageous to your side as a hostile is spending both attention and ammo to repeatedly down a merc who would otherwise have been downed anyway. From a play perspective it needs addressed to keep things fun certainly, but from a tactical perspective a neg reward does not make any sense because the action is actually still contributing positively towards the win. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ in essence the request revive before revive is possible would be ideal here See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2812	Posted - 2014.09.18 06:14:00 - [516] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Thanks for the response and clarification Cross. It seemed weird the way it come across especially in light of this thread and I know sometimes Rattati comes across short and to the point Anyway i've been trying these brick tank logis that everyone says they see and I can honestly say that I ******* hate them. How any body manages to play logi waddling around like a crap heavy with EQ slots is beyond me, i have been getting my arse handed to me ( more than normal ) back to kincats for me before i loose the will to logi. Quick one while i'm here, over the last week I've noticed an annoying trend. Mainly the mass spam of uplinks in just about every conceivable location, by that i mean worse than normal. I was wondering whether this was linked to the increase in WP requirement for OB's and organised squads trying to milk every last WP to get an OB? Unintended side effect or my bad luck in running into uplink spamming squads. Triple SP event. Uplink spam gets ludicrous. You can set your watch to it. Pretty sure that confirms the rewards from Uplink are (slightly) too rich - considering they are a drop and forget equipment. Suggest slightly reducing their rewards from 25 to 20 per spawn to balance out. (Higher tier equipment still benefits for of faster spawn times.) CPM are working on getting spam related problems addressed in a way that won't require dedicated logi to lose earnings (since it is already hard to be self sustaining while running top shelf logi support). I will elaborate later, sorry for the tease (or maybe I'm just evil ) because I am extremely tired and am pretty sure I would kitten up the description if I tried to explain it right now. If I don't give some more info on this subject soonish (say within a few days following the million clone event) feel free to prod me so I remember to get it out to you guys See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1151	Posted - 2014.09.18 06:45:00 - [517] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Meee One wrote: Any updates? I've noticed a lack of CPM responses,and 0 Dev responses... (GèÖn++GèÖG£+) I have had an incredibly hectic time IRL lately and so my time has been pretty thin. (Meetings with CCP are on going of course, as are my efforts to gather feedback, but this leaves my time to respond highly limited) With the current hotfix cycle changes are more likely to show up in smaller portions than sweeping blocks. Currently I am revving up to test the new matchmaking during the million clone event (what? I play this game ) after which I will once again be devoting more of my free time, such as it is, to this thread and an updated evaluation on the state of play for support in Dust. Cheers, Cross By all means IRL comes first always. I was just noticing that except for my (QQ) posts this thread kept disappearing. But as long as i have posting privileges i'll make sure it doesn't . But,i must warn you the matching system is wonky. 98% of the games i've been in,have been stomps today. Usually it's only about 65%. If you didn't play the game,i'd call shenanigans on the elections. But,don't stress yourself. It's only a game,it won't die if you go on vacation. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Major IMPACT Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 14	Posted - 2014.09.18 23:28:00 - [518] - Quote Meee One wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Meee One wrote: Any updates? I've noticed a lack of CPM responses,and 0 Dev responses... (GèÖn++GèÖG£+) I have had an incredibly hectic time IRL lately and so my time has been pretty thin. (Meetings with CCP are on going of course, as are my efforts to gather feedback, but this leaves my time to respond highly limited) With the current hotfix cycle changes are more likely to show up in smaller portions than sweeping blocks. Currently I am revving up to test the new matchmaking during the million clone event (what? I play this game ) after which I will once again be devoting more of my free time, such as it is, to this thread and an updated evaluation on the state of play for support in Dust. Cheers, Cross By all means IRL comes first always. I was just noticing that except for my (QQ) posts this thread kept disappearing. But as long as i have posting privileges i'll make sure it doesn't . But,i must warn you the matching system is wonky. 98% of the games i've been in,have been stomps today. Usually it's only about 65%. If you didn't play the game,i'd call shenanigans on the elections. But,don't stress yourself. It's only a game,it won't die if you go on vacation. Im still checking this thread. It's just that I dont have any great ideas yet and most should already have been discussed. *By the way, I haven't been on yet. I have no clue how the MU system affected gameplay. I guess ill have to limit my nanite spammings... Caldari logi- Ruler of Nanites
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1167	Posted - 2014.09.19 00:22:00 - [519] - Quote I've noticed a terrible trend regarding support. In particular,rep tools. Weapons,as they increase in level do not endanger their users. 1 they can kill to insure their safety. the user gets offense. 2 their range never gets lower. 3 they are easy to use at all tiers. rep tools 1 provide 0 defense to make up for the loss of offense (just like logistics suits,ironically) 2 range actually gets shorter/more difficult to use for the better level The core focused is what i'm referring to. Want so make a comparison people would understand? Take every Pro weapon,cut their range by 75%,and cut their magazine size in HALF. And increase reload times by 50% to represent the loss of defense rep tools give. Now that seems awfully broken considering that they cost the most,doesn't it? But the rep tool isn't the only problem. Everything support oriented is designed to get the user killed. While everything kill oriented is designed to keep the user alive. Don't believe me even after the rep tool/weapon comparison? Let's look at 2 other equipment. One causes instant death. One causes instant life. Guessed them yet? REs and injectors. REs can be used while jumping,falling,running,or just plain slung. This mobility allows this killing equipment to aid its users survival. Injectors on the otherhand... You must be directly on top of an ally,then you become paralysed while reviving them,if you move it doesn't work. It's so badly done it even paralyses the person you just revived into a state of defenselessness. So while REs save one life,injectors kill two. Hillariously ironic,don't you agree? Even logistics suits themselves are proof. Killing suits accel at everything,and i mean everything,logistics has nothing it accels at in terms of survival. Low eHP,low evasion,low regen,low speed. Logistics suits themselves are designed to fail,and get their users killed as well. While even scouts have mechanisms built in to aid them in killing. Even worse are OHK weapons,the completely negate the rep tools existence and further nerf support. And with OHK snipers coming out,i've got a feeling less and less players will carry rep tools in favor of 80% injectors. TL;DR As long as support,and in particular logistics,are seen as valued members of the merc ranks and not just "nerfed to support" suits,nothing will change. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 795	Posted - 2014.09.19 02:40:00 - [520] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: This morning when I was picked up twice with a Red standing 20m in front of me in plain sight, I got the idea that there should be a -25 WP penalty if you pick someone up and they die again within 5 seconds. My role in the context of the Support class: Victim! I consider the guy who picked me up twice without clearing the area to be an accomplice to my repeated murder. Maybe if there was a penalty for such negligence people would learn? Mandatory 'request revive' would help prevent this. While request revive would be helpful it is also worth noting that aside from the thoothless KDR stat there is no loss in such situations. Are they frustrating? Yes of course. However no fits or clones are lost until bleed out so the net effect is actually tactically advantageous to your side as a hostile is spending both attention and ammo to repeatedly down a merc who would otherwise have been downed anyway. From a play perspective it needs addressed to keep things fun certainly, but from a tactical perspective a neg reward does not make any sense because the action is actually still contributing positively towards the win. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ in essence the request revive before revive is possible would be ideal here Well, you aren't entirely correct in your assertion here that the enemy gains nothing (tactically) from repeatedly downing the same enemy... Every kill in that situation is 50-60 wp towards that squad's warbarge strike, which, in the right hands, is very much a tactical advantage. So, the other perspective to this situation would be that someone mindlessly reviving the same ally over and over again is actually helping the enemy team gain an advantage, not helping their own team, as they are tying up a merc that could have spawned and gotten back into the fight and keeping themselves from doing something actually useful. Now, I don't subscribe to that above view as such, I think kdr whores can go QQ in COD or whatever, imho saving a clone (and potentially isk, even though some people don't care, others do) is more important than anyone's kdr, but there is no reason to be stupid about it either. I for one still almost always carry a needle on my logi suit - doesn't mean I mindlessly and blindly rush toward every downed ally to get that 60 points no matter what. Unfortunately, in recent months I have lost faith in the logis left in dust, as I almost never even see a needle when I go down, and when I do, 90% of the time I get picked up only when and where I really didn't want to... i.e. in front of a tank/a heavy/a sniper/the whole ******* enemy team. Seriously, I used to mock people who raged about bad pick ups, but recently... well, there really don't seem to be anything BUT bad pick ups left :( Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2830	Posted - 2014.09.19 03:44:00 - [521] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: This morning when I was picked up twice with a Red standing 20m in front of me in plain sight, I got the idea that there should be a -25 WP penalty if you pick someone up and they die again within 5 seconds. My role in the context of the Support class: Victim! I consider the guy who picked me up twice without clearing the area to be an accomplice to my repeated murder. Maybe if there was a penalty for such negligence people would learn? Mandatory 'request revive' would help prevent this. While request revive would be helpful it is also worth noting that aside from the thoothless KDR stat there is no loss in such situations. Are they frustrating? Yes of course. However no fits or clones are lost until bleed out so the net effect is actually tactically advantageous to your side as a hostile is spending both attention and ammo to repeatedly down a merc who would otherwise have been downed anyway. From a play perspective it needs addressed to keep things fun certainly, but from a tactical perspective a neg reward does not make any sense because the action is actually still contributing positively towards the win. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ in essence the request revive before revive is possible would be ideal here Well, you aren't entirely correct in your assertion here that the enemy gains nothing (tactically) from repeatedly downing the same enemy... Every kill in that situation is 50-60 wp towards that squad's warbarge strike, which, in the right hands, is very much a tactical advantage. Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases). Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000. Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 796	Posted - 2014.09.19 13:17:00 - [522] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases). Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000. Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums. Cheers, Cross I am actually pretty much entirely sure you are wrong there. When you revive someone THE FIRST TIME you get the 60 points. If they get killed again within a very short time, and get revived, no WP is awarded for the pick up, even if they are picked up by another player. So, no, the WP from the repeated revives doesn't nullify anything. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2831	Posted - 2014.09.19 16:35:00 - [523] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases). Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000. Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums. Cheers, Cross I am actually pretty much entirely sure you are wrong there. When you revive someone THE FIRST TIME you get the 60 points. If they get killed again within a very short time, and get revived, no WP is awarded for the pick up, even if they are picked up by another player. So, no, the WP from the repeated revives doesn't nullify anything. Depends on how quickly it happens, but yes there is a cool down in place, however if we are looking at a theoretical in which it is only revive-get shot-revive-repeat for very long at all that is either A) people specifically farming the mechanic, or B) almost never going to actually happen. So in those actual situations yes it does tend to cancel out, further even were that not the case it would still generally be minutiae as mentioned, subjective in impact (either pos or neg) as mentioned, and addressed by the proposed solution. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 796	Posted - 2014.09.19 18:03:00 - [524] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases). Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000. Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums. Cheers, Cross I am actually pretty much entirely sure you are wrong there. When you revive someone THE FIRST TIME you get the 60 points. If they get killed again within a very short time, and get revived, no WP is awarded for the pick up, even if they are picked up by another player. So, no, the WP from the repeated revives doesn't nullify anything. Depends on how quickly it happens, but yes there is a cool down in place, however if we are looking at a theoretical in which it is only revive-get shot-revive-repeat for very long at all that is either A) people specifically farming the mechanic, or B) almost never going to actually happen. So in those actual situations yes it does tend to cancel out, further even were that not the case it would still generally be minutiae as mentioned, subjective in impact (either pos or neg) as mentioned, and addressed by the proposed solution. Whether it's "minutiae" or not is irrelevant, I was just countering your statement that the repeated reviving of an ally that then keeps getting killed again is an advantage to the team ;) Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 322	Posted - 2014.09.19 19:33:00 - [525] - Quote Sooo.... Logis need speed buffs Logis need eHP buffs Logis need repair/recharge/delay buffs Logis need their sidearms back Logis need to be Dropsuit Command level 5 Logis need scouts to lose that 2nd equipment slot Logis need more/better bonuses to equipment use/costs/limits Logis need strengthening without limiting versatility To werk, ceeceepee! cracks novawhip Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2832	Posted - 2014.09.19 20:55:00 - [526] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases). Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000. Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums. Cheers, Cross I am actually pretty much entirely sure you are wrong there. When you revive someone THE FIRST TIME you get the 60 points. If they get killed again within a very short time, and get revived, no WP is awarded for the pick up, even if they are picked up by another player. So, no, the WP from the repeated revives doesn't nullify anything. Depends on how quickly it happens, but yes there is a cool down in place, however if we are looking at a theoretical in which it is only revive-get shot-revive-repeat for very long at all that is either A) people specifically farming the mechanic, or B) almost never going to actually happen. So in those actual situations yes it does tend to cancel out, further even were that not the case it would still generally be minutiae as mentioned, subjective in impact (either pos or neg) as mentioned, and addressed by the proposed solution. Whether it's "minutiae" or not is irrelevant, I was just countering your statement that the repeated reviving of an ally that then keeps getting killed again is an advantage to the team ;) My point was that all of that was covered by my prior post so long as the context of the post itself is applied. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2832	Posted - 2014.09.19 20:58:00 - [527] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Sooo.... Logis need speed buffs Logis need eHP buffs Logis need repair/recharge/delay buffs Logis need their sidearms back Logis need to be Dropsuit Command level 5 Logis need scouts to lose that 2nd equipment slot Logis need more/better bonuses to equipment use/costs/limits Logis need strengthening without limiting versatility To werk, ceeceepee! cracks novawhip Oooo, thread summery, nifty (there are some details and debates and such as well of course, but it is nice to get things back on track ) See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1171	Posted - 2014.09.20 02:49:00 - [528] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Sooo.... Logis need speed buffs Logis need eHP buffs Logis need repair/recharge/delay buffs Logis need their sidearms back Logis need to be Dropsuit Command level 5 Logis need scouts to lose that 2nd equipment slot Logis need more/better bonuses to equipment use/costs/limits Logis need strengthening without limiting versatility To werk, ceeceepee! cracks novawhip Speed? yes. eHP? No,damage resists and evasion (it accomplishes the same thing) logistics needs to be hard to hit,and resist all but the most dedicated attacks.currently logistics can easily be killed by stray fire. R/r/Db?Yes Sidearms? No DcLv5? No,i am only lv 3 for (obvious reasons) and i wouldn't be able to use logistics suits,and there are others out there in the same situation i'm in. Scouts need to lose the 2nd equipment?Yes,or a weapon and stats to be worse than logistics. Moar bonuses? Yes Lol 'versatility',logistics has no 'versatility',every slot must be used to compensate their bad base stats. I say damage resists because it's the one thing no one else has. Scouts have stealth and evasion. Assaults have everything but eWAR,native that is. Heavies have splash resists,then individual resists. Logistics should have straight damage resists to everything,and evasion to be able to escape. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
zzZaXxx Vengeance Unbound 520	Posted - 2014.09.20 03:09:00 - [529] - Quote 1. Logis need more EHP. 2. Logis need scouts to lose the 2nd equipment slot. 3. Adv Cal and Gal logis need a 6th slot. 4. Logis need more EHP.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1171	Posted - 2014.09.20 03:53:00 - [530] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: 1. Logis need more EHP. 2. Logis need scouts to lose the 2nd equipment slot. 3. Adv Cal and Gal logis need a 6th slot. 4. Logis need more EHP. eHP encourages players to stay and brawl,instead of flee. Just look at Cal and Gal scouts. 500 armor or 500 shields. They accel at assaulting. If,for example,stun lock was re-introduced at 2-3x it's old snag power exclusively for light frames,they would disappear. It's evasion and high eHP with high regen that makes them OP. But one simple change,and you'll never see assault scouts again. They wouldn't live through barrages they are able to now,once seen the DPS of any weapon would end them. But that's another topic. Logistics shouldn't be encouraged to fight,but mustn't be 2 shot either and escape should always be a valid option. Resists and evasion helps both survival and escape,while keeping eHP low so logistics remembers its limitations. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.

Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 6	Posted - 2014.09.20 04:51:00 - [531] - Quote Meee One wrote: 0/10 If logistics made up for its lack of eHP with evasion. Not necessarily a stat. Meee One wrote: And lack of offense with damage resistance while holding equipment,i would agree. So I could whip out some kind of equipment and run away really fast while taking a bunch of bullets? Balance... Meee One wrote: But everyone,and i mean everyone,always targets logistics first. Yet,even though this fact is obvious CCP and the players think that they need nothing extra to survive as public enemy #1. It's downright lunacy. Like the two heavies at the end of a rep tool, or a team spawning out of an uplink, or rezzing 4 people who just went down and are now back up and ready to fight. I see what you're saying here, but the symbiotic relationship between logis and the rest of their team should not be ignored. It remains very effective at times and a logi by itself being very weak and vulnerable might be exactly what CCP intends for the role. Meee One wrote: If i were going to throw something into a pit of lava,i would do my best to fireproof it first. Not just pick up the worst suited thing to do the job either. I don't understand the comparison. Your saying that not only is a logi not the best at it's job, but it is the worst? If not, survivability isn't necessarily a logi's job. Support is a logi's job. And survivability isn't always a part of support. Most of the time a logi's "survivability" is dramatically increased when it is around it's team anyway. When you start artificially introducing things that will boost a logi's ability to survive even without it's team it becomes durable on it's own. [/quote=Meee One] Logistics,right now in its current situation can't effectively survive to do its job. Remember slayer logis? How bad assaults were by comparison? [/quote] When you answer my post lets establish a definition for what a logi's job is that we agree on. [/quote=Meee One] Logistics has been this bad for a while,but it was masked over by the slots and reps. With reps removed,all logistics had was slots. Now,assaults have those slots. Logistics still has equipment right? No,scouts have that equipment. A basic Cal Logistics only has 2 equipment,just like scouts. But the logistics,the one designed to carry equipment the best,must lose speed,a weapon and base stats. Yet, the "assassin" suit,the one designed to get stealth kills the best,has high speed,high regen,and both weapons,with 0 reduction to base stats. [/quote] What slots are we talking about between the assaults and logistics? I agree that scouts are Overpowered at the moment, but at the same time logistics are not underpowered. The answer I see is a nerf to scouts, not a buff to logistics roles. Buffing logistics I think would only increase the equipment spam that is plaguing many games. Why do I start half my games with a scout running two sets of drop uplinks? Because its faster and more effective than a logi suit running three. Scouts need to lose their second equipment slot and assaults shouldn't ever get it. [/quote=Meee One] Logistics has been,and still is being torn apart. The benefits of being logistics are being given to everyone,yet only logistics must suffer any penalties for those same privileges. It's the most craziness i've witnessed anywhere else,peoples justification for this insanity is "it's balanced if logistics suffers for those perks,but horribly broken if assaults or scouts do". [/quote] Yup. But take away those penalty free privileges from other suits. Right whats wrong. Don't try to make what's right more right by boosting the privileges logis already enjoy with decent effectiveness. [/quote Meee One] It always leaves me dumbfounded at the sheer ignorance and hypocrisy they display,just to play favorites. [/quote] Yes. The vibe i get is that the other suits somehow owe it to the scout because it got no love for a year. Balance or comeuppance. Pick one CCP. TL;DR I agree with you on several things, but generally disagree on how to solve them. Dust 5/14
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1173	Posted - 2014.09.20 08:49:00 - [532] - Quote Logistics killing things is the problem CCP has shown interest in stopping. If i'm holding an equipment running away trying not to die,i'm not killing am i? If i'm repping,and get damage resist i'm encouraged to rep more seeing as it aids in my own survival. Logistics 'being weak' only is good if you have multiple logistics options. For example,i can have a gun on my suit and have low survivability. -or- i can take the logistics without a gun and have great survivability. We only have option 1,if we had a 2 i wouldn't be trying to get the gun suit buffed for logistics. I would be using #2 because a logistics job isn't just 'lolsupport',it's to keep itself alive. After all,what use is my rep tool after i'm dead?Or how about my injector?Or even my undeployed hives? Logistics must monitor its own vitals,and any allies close by,while also avoiding enemy bullets and back attacks while repping.They must also manage their deployables so they don't use them up at the wrong times. No other suit is burdened so heavily. What must every other class with better survivability do? Lolkillstuff. They are never left defenseless,like logistics is doing their job. Do i believe logistics should be durable and evasive enough to regroup if separated from their team? Yes Do i believe logistics should be durable enough to take 9 SG bullets at 0m and survive? No Oh yes,the old 'logistics should die without a team'. I have bad news for you,scouts can throw REs 10m and there goes that 'protection',scouts can dive into a group SG you then escape unscathed. RRs and CRs enable perfect accuracy to shoot you from over 50m away. Enemies will look and see 'logistics' on the aim info,then single you out. The rep line makes you target #1. CCP,during the slayer logi era increased logistics hitboxes to be as big as heavies,and they are the same size today,over 8(?) months later. And let's not forget the new OHK sniper rifles coming out. Let's use a snipers logic shall we? Hmm,an assault with 1000 eHP,a scout with 500 armor/shields i can't track,a heavy with 1000 eHP... Or the logistics with less eHP than all of them,and easier to track? Now,which one should i shoot to get an easy kill i wonder... Obvious answer is obvious. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1173	Posted - 2014.09.20 09:01:00 - [533] - Quote Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. This idea is supported by EVE too. http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Logistics_Ships_101 T2 logistic ships have small signature radius, decent speed, and high resists.Even though they are the healer, they are tougher than a lot of other ships and will either be attempted to taken down first, jammed, or left to last if they are too tough a nut to crack, leaving your other more fragile, but high DPS ships to deal the pain while you are being concentrated on. Logistics in Dust shares 0 similarities with logistics in EVE. In EVE they are/have: -harder to detect -Decent speed -High resists -Weak to high ALPHA damage (low eHP) -Difficult to kill In Dust they are/have: -Weak to ALPHA damage (low eHP) If CCP refuses to buff logistics with a gun,create a non-combat variety that actually meets EVE standards. It doesn't even have to be re-colored.Just put it in the market right next to the regular version,just like weapons. I'll just repost this,since some people are too lazy to read. This is the best non-buff buff i can think of for the logistics class. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 796	Posted - 2014.09.20 12:42:00 - [534] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases). Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000. Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums. Cheers, Cross I am actually pretty much entirely sure you are wrong there. When you revive someone THE FIRST TIME you get the 60 points. If they get killed again within a very short time, and get revived, no WP is awarded for the pick up, even if they are picked up by another player. So, no, the WP from the repeated revives doesn't nullify anything. Depends on how quickly it happens, but yes there is a cool down in place, however if we are looking at a theoretical in which it is only revive-get shot-revive-repeat for very long at all that is either A) people specifically farming the mechanic, or B) almost never going to actually happen. So in those actual situations yes it does tend to cancel out, further even were that not the case it would still generally be minutiae as mentioned, subjective in impact (either pos or neg) as mentioned, and addressed by the proposed solution. Whether it's "minutiae" or not is irrelevant, I was just countering your statement that the repeated reviving of an ally that then keeps getting killed again is an advantage to the team ;) My point was that all of that was covered by my prior post so long as the context of the post itself is applied. sigh And my point was, that first, I disagree with your assertion that needlefucking gives a tactical advantage of any kind, and more importantly, follow me here, I was correcting your statement "made up for by the 60 wp per revive". Now the context for this is, I have played a support logi for over 2 years, I have heard all sort of accusations and missapprehensions about logis and logistics tools, mainly from people who don't use them. This particular one: "WP whoring logis go around mindlessly reviving people over and over again to farm them for hundreds of points" - which they'd know is not possible, if they actually used a needle themselves. So, I simply don't want that misapprehension to be spread further on the forums, particularly by a CPM member. Now, I am willing to believe you actually were aware of the mechanic (being the CPM member on the forums actually discussing Logistics, I should hope so), and just chose to ignore it to make your point. I was simply correcting that part so the peole not familiar with it aren't left with a false understanding of it. And, yeah, that was left pretty unclear by what you said earlier, no matter how you "apply the context" That's all. We done? Great. Go back to the regularly scheduled programming. @Meee One The issue with directly applying Eve roles to a game like Dust is that, frankly, they are very different types of games. Yes, the logistics role in dust should in many ways be closer to the eve one, but the dedication to full support role requires a lot, maybe too much, from casual players, both from the logi themselves, and the people they'd be playing with. As an eve type logi in dust, you would be fully dependent on your squad (which, yes, in a team based game should in fact be a requirement, but isn't, not in dust), which is hard when the other roles can all be entirely self sustaining in most situations. Yes, a good group that wants to work together will make this work and a squad working together will almost always beat people who aren't. But the overall playerbase in dust has shifted more and more towards casuals and solo play (even when technically in squad), it's just a natural reaction to the shifts in the game, the buffs to the various slayer roles (and, yes, all the non-logis are now slayers) have practically encouraged focusing on solo running and gunning (particularly for scouts, obviously). So what would be the incentive for a squad (or in more competitive play) to protect a full support player, who has no way of defending the squad's flanks or even themselves? In eve, it pays off, but in an FPS like dust... I think the overwhelming majority would consider a player that can't shoot back at an enemy to be deadweight, unfortunately. Now... If logis (and logis only) could set up defensive turrets (drones ftw) in exchange of not carrying light arms, well that... that'd be interesting ;) Also, obviously not something that would ever happen in dust, unfortunately :( Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2906	Posted - 2014.09.20 13:00:00 - [535] - Quote The original slayer logi epidemic was caused DIRECTLY by the logis originally having the caldari assault bonus to shield extenders, and being able to rock more fittings which allowed a logistics suit to brick up to the level of sentinels at the time. The only way you will get slayer logis now is by repeating the mistake that allowed logis to beat all other suit classes in the ability to fit and stack extenders and plates. Currently logis are squishy. They have a bigger hitbox than scouts. If they want to actually be a logi badass they have to sacrifice tank and weapon for equipment. Buffing speed is not going to make a slayer logi. Making the equipment bonuses better will not make slayers. The slayer logi is a symptom of not balancing EHP. Logis should be using their TEAMMATES as their primary HP buffer. But if we don't give thwm the ability to bricktank again? You will not see a slayer because the current meta is extenders > rechargers and plates > reps. While it's not really true it is the perception. But keeping the logis between assaults and scouts defensively will prevent slayer logis. You can literally buff almost everything else 20% and not have it happen again.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1177	Posted - 2014.09.20 15:44:00 - [536] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: @Meee One You're secksy! Aw shucks,you're pretty too. You must have ignored the parts about sentinel level eHP and scout level speed and regen. And from personal experience,i'm never expected to kill anything,i am however expected to rep and resupply. So,to a pure support player such as myself,a weaponless logi suit that gave the afforementioned traits in exchange would be amazing for my purposes. I like to leave killing to other suits anyway,this would just allow me to do what i already do,only better. Ask anyone who's ever squadded up with me,i kill 100x more enemies with my rep tool than i do with my weapon. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 798	Posted - 2014.09.20 18:11:00 - [537] - Quote Meee One wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: @Meee One You're secksy! Aw shucks,you're pretty too. You must have ignored the parts about sentinel level eHP and scout level speed and regen. And from personal experience,i'm never expected to kill anything,i am however expected to rep and resupply. So,to a pure support player such as myself,a weaponless logi suit that gave the afforementioned traits in exchange would be amazing for my purposes. I like to leave killing to other suits anyway,this would just allow me to do what i already do,only better. Ask anyone who's ever squadded up with me,i kill 100x more enemies with my rep tool than i do with my weapon. Yes, and all those things would be great - to a dedicated logistics player with a dedicated squad that wants to and is capable of working with that. And you are lucky to have that, I was just pointing out that would not, sadly, be the experience for a large part of the playerbase. And I do know how great that is, having a squad you can count on and play a dedicated role for, unfortunately most of my peeps I could count on like that have long moved on from this game :( Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2850	Posted - 2014.09.20 22:14:00 - [538] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: My point was that all of that was covered by my prior post so long as the context of the post itself is applied. sigh And my point was, that first, I disagree with your assertion that needlefucking gives a tactical advantage of any kind, and more importantly, follow me here, I was correcting your statement "made up for by the 60 wp per revive". Now the context for this is, I have played a support logi for over 2 years, I have heard all sort of accusations and missapprehensions about logis and logistics tools, mainly from people who don't use them. This particular one: "WP whoring logis go around mindlessly reviving people over and over again to farm them for hundreds of points" - which they'd know is not possible, if they actually used a needle themselves. [/quote] Correct, as I already stated there is a cool down, but it is not a hard cap, much like the cap in place on the wp generated by the repair tool (although the repair tool cap is much more lenient). And if we are applying player knowledge context rather than post context (for the record I was talking the context of the statement/post before) then we are more or less in the same boat as I have been playing support logi (still hate the need to clarify that I run Logi as support) since prior to Codex build in closed beta. Zaria Min Deir wrote: So, I simply don't want that misapprehension to be spread further on the forums, particularly by a CPM member. Now, I am willing to believe you actually were aware of the mechanic (being the CPM member on the forums actually discussing Logistics, I should hope so), and just chose to ignore it to make your point. I was aware of it yes, and that knowledge has nothing to do with being or not being a member of the CPM I also did not ignore it, however it seems I was not explicit enough for your tastes which is fine I acknowledge the concern. In light of how the "slayer logi" situation has been generally misperceived I can understand your concern regarding further misconceptions. Another current misconception, which is actually tied to the "repeated revives work to *** WP" misconception that you pointed out is the notion that using a needle is generally or innately a selfish or tactically invalid act. Zaria Min Deir wrote:** I was simply correcting that part so the peole not familiar with it aren't left with a false understanding of it. And, yeah, that was left pretty unclear by what you said earlier, no matter how you "apply the context" That's all. We done? Great. Go back to the regularly scheduled programming. Alright, you were concerned about a misunderstanding and wanted to make sure it was more clear, that's legit. Although this entire exchanged could have been concluded much more quickly if that had been stated upfront rather than responding with posts (honestly including the above quoted) which falsely assume I am somehow "ignoring" a mechanic. Be that as it may, you are correct this entire sidebar is getting off topic so closing the subject and moving on Breakin Stuff wrote: The original slayer logi epidemic was caused DIRECTLY by the logis originally having the caldari assault bonus to shield extenders, and being able to rock more fittings which allowed a logistics suit to brick up to the level of sentinels at the time. The only way you will get slayer logis now is by repeating the mistake that allowed logis to beat all other suit classes in the ability to fit and stack extenders and plates. Currently logis are squishy. They have a bigger hitbox than scouts. If they want to actually be a logi badass they have to sacrifice tank and weapon for equipment. Buffing speed is not going to make a slayer logi. Making the equipment bonuses better will not make slayers. The slayer logi is a symptom of not balancing EHP. Logis should be using their TEAMMATES as their primary HP buffer. But if we don't give thwm the ability to bricktank again? You will not see a slayer because the current meta is extenders > rechargers and plates > reps. While it's not really true it is the perception. But keeping the logis between assaults and scouts defensively will prevent slayer logis. You can literally buff almost everything else 20% and not have it happen again. Yep, even at the time it was really the Cal Logi (because of the extender skill buff) that was the true slayer. After that the fittings flex combined with the plate buff added some extra tank oomph to the logi but even then fitting a proto support logi did not result in a better assault (comparing similar racial assault fits side by side with the logi), support play never had the same ability to brick tank as slay play in a logi suit which has been one of the long standing issues. Anyway, Breakin you're on point here regarding keeping the logis defense between scouts and assaults. At which point cost to run the role needs looked at but that is an additional kettle of fish. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1179	Posted - 2014.09.21 09:57:00 - [539] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Meee One wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: @Meee One You're secksy! Aw shucks,you're pretty too. You must have ignored the parts about sentinel level eHP and scout level speed and regen. And from personal experience,i'm never expected to kill anything,i am however expected to rep and resupply. So,to a pure support player such as myself,a weaponless logi suit that gave the afforementioned traits in exchange would be amazing for my purposes. I like to leave killing to other suits anyway,this would just allow me to do what i already do,only better. Ask anyone who's ever squadded up with me,i kill 100x more enemies with my rep tool than i do with my weapon. Yes, and all those things would be great - to a dedicated logistics player with a dedicated squad that wants to and is capable of working with that. And you are lucky to have that, I was just pointing out that would not, sadly, be the experience for a large part of the playerbase. And I do know how great that is, having a squad you can count on and play a dedicated role for, unfortunately most of my peeps I could count on like that have long moved on from this game :( Lawl, 'dedicated squad'. Naw,i mostly run solo. Going 0/2 with over a thousand WP. I'm not advocating for a weapon removal from logistics,just a weaponless variety that allows more defense in exchange for offense. I am more than willing to trade my gun if i can support better. I also let people know i can't kill to save my life,literally. But after i get 2k WP with 0 kills they usually over look that particular little flaw. My weapon is so useless to me i often run around with the ion,magsec or even flaylock. Here's a channel where dedicated logistics and dedicated heavies squad up: -Heavy/logi funzone It has over 50 members from all timezones. Just put in Lfs and your role. The heavies will do all the killing. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 17794	Posted - 2014.09.21 17:31:00 - [540] - Quote I honestly find the idea of a weaponless logistics awful. Specialisation is one thing, but there is a point where you take it far too far. The forums have ruined me.



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