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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Negative-Feedback
3222
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Posted - 2014.08.22 22:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Honestly... I think we need to go back to the discussion started by Crazy Cat Lady a while back.
If I had time I would make a much larger post on this but I'm just too busy with the semester starting back up now.
Here is an idea for the community to ponder.
What if... (and I know some peeps are gonna be plenty unhappy with this im sure) we go with a more EVE-inspired solution to this problem.
Looking specifically at Logistics Cruisers in EVE, their entire bonus set revolves around remote repairs, remote capacitor transfer, and remote tracking links (something I don't think we really have an analogue for)... They are the medics of EVE. Why not translate that to health and ammo in Dust? i.e. Repair Tool Repair Rate and Nanohive supply rate and repair amount.
Make it more about slot versatility and less about these drastically varied racial bonuses.
Giving the logi suits something more like
Logistics Bonus:
-5% fitting requirements on equipment
+10% Range on Repair Tools
+10% Nanite Capacity on Nanohives
Now the next part gets tricky... In EVE, they have remote shield boosters... we don't have that in Dust. If it would be possible to add that to Dust... then we could have some more interesting fits where Caldari and Minmatar get a bonus to shield reps and Amarr and Gallente get a bonus to Armor reps. If that is just flat out impossible, then we could consider something else...
Without shield transporters we would need to fall back to rep rate and nano supply rate.
My suggestion would then be...
Gal/Am - 5% Repair Rate and 2.5% Nano Supply/Triage Rate
Cal/Min - 2.5% Repair Rate and 5% Nano Supply/Triage Rate
Now... you might ask what about the scanner and drop uplinks? Those have completely vanished off the list?
I think they should, they really aren't THAT viable for logi suits as we've seen. Active Scanners compete with scouts for ewar and do it poorly and uplinks... well they would just be better suited for a suit that is faster than a min sentinel...
So... I propose we wrap those bonuses into a new suit. Since we won't ever get a pilot suit... how about we start discussing a second light suit?
I would call it the Recon Dropsuit. With a specialty on active scanning and drop uplink placement. I won't discuss this in depth but I would suggest it follows a similar type of bonus... getting a reduction on equipment and a global bonus say...
Recon Bonus
-5% fitting reqs on equip
+% Scan Angle
+2 Spawn Count per level
+ a flavor bonus by splitting the scan range, scan precision, recharge time (perhaps?) and uplink spawn delay up amongst the different races.
Specifically, I think this could better handle the 'combat logi' role i've been fighting for when we first discussed Hotfix Charlie. A light suit with L/S E/E/E and a similar(ish) module layout to the scout. It would have similar passive ewar to an assault suit and no specific bonus to ewar. Just active scanning and drop uplinks. They are speedy enough to get around and place drop uplinks in strategic positions, better than an Amarr Logi can.
By moving the combat logi role to this frame, you can have a traditional active scan and drop uplink kind of build or build it as a pseudo-logi... equipping a rep tool, injector, nanohive setup but losing out specifically on any bonuses to those when compare to a more dedicated setup, the logistics suit.
Lastly, with the release of a suit to carry out the combat logi role on its own, we can normalize the racial logi suits to 1 L 0 S and 4 E like they should be if we want to maintain racial consistency.
I'm sure a lot of people are not going to like this suggestion but I think its worth putting out there... at least to spark a discussion that is more than just "how many slots should a logi get so they are balanced." imo, the biggest problem with Logi suits atm is that some bonuses are clearly far more valuable than others, this actually stifles variety rather than increasing it. Logi suit bonuses are spread too thin atm, and we need to more clearly define what we think the Logi should actually be, and 'equipment ***** is not enough definition' imho.
I think with these proposed changes being this substantial (plus all of the other changes in the previous hotifxes) it would be time for a complete, or at least another dropsuit command, SP reallocation.
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Negative-Feedback
3222
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 23:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Gonna have to really disagree with you on the Logis there ZDub, sorry. You've got Gal and Amarr with identical bonuses, and Minmatar and Caldari with identical bonuses, and even then they're not that different from one another.
I certainly appreciate the attempt to kinda mirror Logis from EVE but as you pointed out, we're missing a lot of the additional support tools that you typically see on an EVE Logi ship, and I think trying to force that kind of support without the right tools leads to a cramped and bland design. The suits just end up being too similar and you really lose any sense of racial differences which I just can't support.
Racial difference would come from... well racial differences. Slot layout, tanking styles, etc. Think about people who want to play along racial lines as well. Someone who wants to play a non-minmatar medic style suit can't right now. The bonuses are too spread out. Atm if you want to be more of a medic type logi, you are forced to play minmatar but that is not necessarily the suit that everyone wants to play.
Could the bonuses themselves maybe use some iteration? Sure... like I said, I just want to throw it out there so people can think about it as a viable option. I'll admit, the lack of a shield transporter makes it a bit less defined.
Logistics sutis in this game just have to be treated differently from the other classes. For most everything else, the objective of the game is to shoot the other person in the face. That's what assault suits do, thats what commandos do, heavies, etc. But equipment is fundamentally different from piece to piece. The scanner doesn't fulfill the same role that a nanohive does, or a rep tool. Its gonna be a little narrow-minded to say this but... atm if you want to play a true support logi... I don't see how you can play that class to its fullest potential without being a min logi.
Now most people are suggesting giving a 'global' style of bonus to each logi suit, but thats no different than what i'm suggesting really. You're normalizing the equipment bonus so that racial and tanking preferences are more relavent. I just don't see that uplinks necessarily belong on the logi frame, a comment made by IWS on a Biomassed podcast a while back... which I definitely agree with.
Additionally, active scanners compete with scout ewar... and for a long time scout ewar was far more powerful than a Gal Logi with a scanner. I suspect since 1.8 the usage of the Gal Logi is minimal, and its probably only by people who want to play Gallente Medic albeit less effective than they could if they shrugged off racial preference and skilled in Min Logi.
Cal Logi is just lol... Shields are less preferred as a tanking style and nanohive bonus just doesn't really matter.
Amarr Logi is played primarly for the sidearm, even though the uplink bonus is bugged and is almost never actually active, I still suspect it would only be played by 'slayer-logis' with an added bonus of uplink reduction. They are slow though, and i'll admti most of the time I just drop my uplink near the action and start slaying... I don't really think about strategic uplink placement, i'm far too slow for the suit to be very effective at it.
I think we need to abandon the idea of racial equipment for logis like the bonuses are for the assault and commando. A global rep bonus must happen to the logi class if its ever going to have a defined role. Until we can actually define what the role of a logistics suit really is, it'll never really be 'balanced' in the same way tanks will never be 'balanced'... they just don't have a defined role.
My suggestion is to define the logi as a medic, just like it (mostly) is in EVE. While moving some of the non-medic type stuff elsewhere. But hey... just my thoughts on the matter.
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Negative-Feedback
3222
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 23:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Since 1.8, after speccing into Amarr Logi... i've used the repair tool a couple times for kicks but I almost never use it. My comments come from the original where all of that was discussed, like you say.
I do have a few other comments then:
1. Is the WP/s generation potential of the Logi too high relative to other classes atm?
2. would moving the rep tool to a global bonus and then giving min a different secondary bonus not leave us in a similar position though? Where you simply use X racial logi suit for X racial logi equipment? It is probably mostly psychological but... I don't think I would ever use an active scanner unless I had a gallente logi... I'm sure that level of 'pidgeon-holing' is healthy in the long term.
3. is it 'okay' (I use this term loosely) that players who want an L/S 3E min logi cannot and players who want a L + 4E amarr logi cannot run that? Should Logis not get racial parity in their line-up like every other class has? If you change caldari and amarr to 4E layout, is it worth the blowback you get from the players who want their current playstyle?
4. Would moving some of the equipment bonuses to another class possibly justify a slight bump in move speed for the logi suit? Making it easier to keep up while repping? Would that be worth it to players who want to play true support type logi?
5. For those 'true support' types of logi players... does it make sense that everyone gets the rep tool but only caldari gets the nanohive? An arguably equally important support piece of equipment?
If we had racial scanners, or racial nanohives, or racial rep tools, I would argue more tailored bonuses would make sense... but since that is unlikely to happen (nor does it need to) I would say we need to stop thinking along the racial bonus lines that Assaults/Commandos currently have. In the end, a gun kills other players... so a racial bonus is flavor. But a piece of equipment performs a specific function... racial equipment bonuses extend to more than just flavor, they are direct impact functionality to any specific suit and play style. That is why I suggest moving away from racial equipment bonuses.
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Negative-Feedback
3312
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 12:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
Since this seems to be the new place to talk about the equipment bandwidth.
I would suggest increasing the uplink bandwidth to either 8 or 12 (I think 12 is better personally), and then removing the amarr logi bonus towards uplinks and changing it to something more useful.
Uplinks, much like jump drive force projection was in eve, are terrible for the game but they have been around for so long that nobody knows any other way.
Death to all uplinks! |
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