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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
109
   |
Posted - 2014.11.14 20:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, after reading over the thread, and going over the current 3rd iteration proposals, as well as brushing up on Nanohive Alchemy (it's SCIENCE!), and forming a few ideas of my own, I decided to collate, distill, and then post my thoughts.
This will probably be long, and might end up being a multi-part post. You have been warned- but please do bear with me.
So, my initial impressions of the 3rd iteration proposals: for the most part, I think there's a lot of solid suggestions and hard work that went into it, and it looks really good. There are some parts I don't care for, and I'll get to that, but a few things immediately jumped out at me:
Nanocircuitry skill bonus "bugfix"? Why should we remove the bonus, when it's actually a good model of what all of the equipment skills should do- not that they should all provide a fitting reduction, but that all of the equipment skills should also have a skill bonus attached to them. IMO, the so-called bugfix that should be applied is to simply alter the skill description string so that it lists the -5% CPU requirement per level bonus.
Demolitions skill bonus. I mostly like this idea, except that I fear that RE's will become even more brokenly powerful than they are right now. It's still very common for them to be spammed at stuff, and I think that this would make the problem even worse. My personal solution would be to apply a nerf to RE damage to accompany the skill bonus addition- the particular value should be sufficient to put RE's at a 5% net damage increase at L5 Demolitions, with L4 Demo being the same damage as presently.
Logistics Role Bonus Buff. This seems nice, but I feel that the bonus as-constructed ends up like the current cloak fitting bonus on scout suits- the net result is that at the low-investment end it's still incredibly difficult to fit the relevant, fitting-bonused mods and build a good fit. Even with L3 scout skill, I find it incredibly difficult to build a solid Amarr scout fit using the STD-level suit and a basic clack- I can only wonder at how much more difficult it would be for a newbro with racial scout L1.
The logi bonus change ends up with the same problem, IMO. It's not as bad with logi suits due to the difference in equipment fittings, slot layouts, and CPU/PG budgets on logi suits, but I'd wager it's still a problem. As an example, I currently have Dropsuit Core Upgrades L5, Dropsuit Engineering L4, and Amarr Logi L5. Back when I had Engineering L3 and AmLogi L4, to build a fit that was survivable while prioritizing equipment required that I fit either a CR or ACR as my light weapon. I was able to shuffle a few mods around- mostly by downgrading my repper mod and upgrading to Logi 5 and Engineering 4, and fit my preferred ARR.
I would recommend as a fix, to apply a flat Role Bonus of -20% CPU/PG fitting requirement of equipment, and then add a -6% CPU/PG requirement per level for equipment. At level 1 racial logi, this equates to a -26% CPU/PG requirement on equipment mods, which is quite slick, IMO. If that proves to much, then I would say scale back to perhaps -15% role bonus, and -7%/level bonus.
Logi Bonus works on Clacks. Simply put, with the current level of bonus, I don't see this as even slightly a problem. Even with the bonus doubled, I really don't see it as an issue. Clacks are equipment, and Logis getting reduced Clack fittings doesn't seem like an issue- clacks suck CPU/PG like nothing else in the game, and require a Logi to sacrifice a great deal to be effective with them. Moreover, clacks no longer provide nearly as much active damping as they did on release- STD clacks provide no damping bonus whatsoever, so even if a logi is "invisible", which in practice is highly dependent on the lighting conditions and mood of a map, then they still show up on TACNET.
In short, I don't really see a problem with Logis being able to get a fitting discount on Clacks. It's an incredibly niche, and honestly kind of dumb and/or "lulzy" fit, and because of that I see no reason to remove it. It just seems like an artificial limitation on the desired sandbox of DUST. That being said, if someone could provide substantial, well-reasoned, and hard evidence that clacky logis would become the Next Big Thing and FOTM in/of DUST, then I could probably be swayed into changing my opinion.
Now, on to some of the Stat Changes:
First off, I generally like the slight buff to basic armor/shield values- I haven't checked the others, but the proposed change for the Amarr Logi generally looks like the intent is to nestle Logi base health values almost perfectly in the middle of scouts and assaults. This seems like an excellent start.
However, I don't see anything about slot layout parity... which is already the case for the PRO GalLogi suit (3/5 high low), and all of the MinLogi line. At the very least, I'd like the slot layout of my Amarr Logi to be 1/3 STD, and 2/4 ADV. At PRO AmLogi, I think I would honestly be okay with 3/4 or 2/5- but the STD/ADV AmLogi slot layouts are a relic of a bygone age, and really need to be changed.
I'm also fairly confident that the Caldari and Gallente logis need some slot layout work at STD/ADV- especially the poor CalLogi, with only 2 equips and no sidearm to compensate at STD (side note: please give the AmLogi a 3rd equip at STD).
The only other standout issue I see is that sprint speed is still slower than the assault- IMO sprint speed should be equal between assaults and logis, with logis having less stamina. This means that yes, a logi will end up falling behind a bunch of assaults... but only after running for 20+ seconds. Increased sprint speed would also improve, IMO, the ability of logis to perform triage/medic duties when carrying a needle.
Pretty much ran out of space on this post, so yes, this is going to be a multi-part deal. Grab some popcorn, and something to drink.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
109
|
Posted - 2014.11.14 20:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
Part the second!
Quick Thoughts on Needles. Maybe a little change to the low-end needles? Say, 40% armor-on-revive for the MLT/STD needles, and 60% for the ADV? This incidentally builds a nice progression between the MLT/STD, ADV, PRO, and LP specialist needles- each time you go up in grade, you get an additional 20%. Seems much cleaner, than the current 30%/50%/80% for STD/ADV/PRO, with LP specialist at 100%.
More Thoughts on Logi Mobility. When running my AmLogi suit, which is generally a case of "run Logi until scouts make me really mad or I just feel ultra-fat or scroog-ish", I find that I generally wish I could sprint faster more than walk faster. Certainly, more health would be nice, but IMO more base speed is really where it's at. Maybe it's because I just run armor tanks more, so Kincats tend to be a much bigger tradeoff than for a shield suit, or maybe it's just that it's easier to get useful tank than it is to get useful speed.
But overall, I'd argue for a sprint speed buff over a movement speed buff.
A Brief Detour on MedFrame EWAR. I perused the opening and first page or two of the EWAR thread, and... honestly, I'm not impressed. Granted, I've got a few ideas that would likely provoke reactions ranging from "that's pretty drastic" to "omahgerrd scout hater tryin to nurf scouts!!1!", but such is the price of genius (I jest, of course... about the genius part).
Overall, I think the only change that seemed particularly interesting, and potentially meta-shaking, is the Logi/Assault EWAR dynamic; that being that a Logi has better scan precision, but Assaults have lower scan profile. The suggested values would incidentally always allow a Logi to see an Assault and vice versa, but the caveat is that Heavies would have more difficulty seeing assaults... though it's not like heavy EWAR is useful anyways, so that's cool too.
Thoughts on Skill Buff Proposals. I quite frankly automatically dislike Method 1. It feels overly contrived and would could potentially eclipse an ADS as "most SP-intensive role in the game". It also seems like it would require a client-side patch. Such an update isn't out of the question (ref Uprising 1.9), but I feel that changes to the Logi Racial skill bonuses are best left as things which can be hotfixed server side.
As far as Methods 2/2b and 4... I'm not too crazy about Methods 2 or 4, since I actually refuse to skill into rep tools at present because of reasons, and I run Amarr Logi
Method 2b though... Get a big bonus to the racial equipment, and then a lesser bonus to the other 3 "BIG FOUR" equips? I really like this idea. I will, of course, fully admit that part of the reason I like this idea is that it gives the Amarr Logi an Active Scanner precision bonus, which I like, given that scouts are my mortal enemy as a Logi.
Going over Method 3/3b, it looks to be mostly in the same position as Method 2 and 4- I'd feel like I'm wasting half the skill bonus because I find repping to be fairly boring and I- for the present at least- refuse to skill into rep tools.
Equipment Changes. First off, let me get the dunce cap for myself, as I only just now noticed the annotation about adjusting RE damage to compensate for the Demolitions skill bonus change.
I have already given my opinion on Logi/Clack relationships, so I won't repeat myself here; Proxy changes look good; the only thing I can think of is that might be interesting to swap Proxy/RE positions on the skill tree, with Proxy's being unlocked at L1/L3/L5, and RE's at L2/L4/L5. Just going over RE's a third time, the trigger delay suggestions look good.
Repair tool changes look like they'd be pretty good, but I don't use Reppers, so I don't consider myself qualified to comment in detail on the matter. While within the triage gear range, the recommended Needle changes look fantastic, barring the technical difficulties that have come to light, IIRC.
Generally liking the nanohive proposal, though I have some more in-depth comments I'd like to make on that subject. Tabling of equipment ISK cost is potentially a poor choice, given that Rattati did normalize variant costs for most weapons- see the Market for how the RR and ARR now have the same ISK pricing for a given tier (I love that change so much).
Link changes are where I'm a little bit iffy, but like nanos, I'd like to make a more in-depth commentary on them.
I do want to take a quick moment and touch on the internal balance of the Scanner variants. First off, why is there no Flux scanner at ADV? Seriously, we have a STD-level model, and we have a PRO version, but no ADV? Seems pretty wonky to me. Next, the ADV-level Stable scanner needs more of a drawback; currently it just ends with ISK cost being the only drawback compared to even the ADV-level basic scanner. Also, why are all of the theoretically very flexible scanners chained to the proto tiers?
Why does the Proxy scanner have such a **** scan angle, and the Proto Flux scanner have an amazeballs scan angle? Why does the Focused scanner have twice the PG usage, and **** cooldown/recharge? I'll all for the Focused having limitations, but it just seems overly constrained into uselessness when it comes down to it.
As for how I'd fix that... well, that'll have to wait for Part the Third, because of character limits.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
109
|
Posted - 2014.11.14 21:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
This has gotten to be much longer than I thought it would be... hopefully it will be helpful feedback at least.
On to Part the Third!
Fixing Active Scanners, You Say? Yes, I did indeed say /fails at puns.
So, how to fix active scanners:
1. Flux variant added at ADV, since we already have STD/PRO versions
2. Stable variant added at STD/PRO; Stable variants have the same paint time (5 secs) as regular scanners, but a longer cooldown (20 seconds instead of 15). This helps give a tradeoff to using a Stable scanner, in addition to the ISK cost. Perhaps a slight nerf to Stable-variant precision would also be appropriate, as well.
3. Proximity variant added at ADV; swap Proxy/Proto Flux scan angles. This will simultaneously tone down the Proto Flux and make Proxy Scanners a desirable gizmo. For the curious, this means that the Proto Flux scanner will have a 45 degree scan angle, while Proxy Scanners will have a 90 degree scan angle; given the much shorter range of Proxy scanners, and the MUCH longer range of Flux scanners, I think this would be entirely appropriate.
4. Slightly reduce Focused scanner cooldown. IIRC, it's currently an 5 second paint time with 40 second cooldown. I would recommend bringing it down to 35 seconds, as a trial run. Eventually it may need to go down further, but I would recommend no less than 25 seconds cooldown for the Focused scanner.
Nanohive Commentary (Finally). So, nanos. Well, to start, as I mentioned, I like the direction that we're going with them- reduce the cluster capacity of each individual hive, but then increase the number of hives carried to match the total cluster count that we currently have.
This being said, I think that we need to retool hives a bit. First off, let's just completely get rid of Flux hives. An increased area of resupply is of zero utility in almost any situation imaginable. About the only time I can think that a Flux hive would be useful, would be if it repped armor.
Which would make it either a Flux (R) or Triage hive, depending on the exact particulars. The ADV-level X-3 Quantum nanohive is somewhat similar; the only advantage it offers is an increased resupply rate. It's certainly convenient, but I can't think of any reason to carry X-3 Quantum hives over K-2 hives, considering that X-3s cost more ISK and CPU to fit.
My recommendation would be to convert the X-3 Quantum hives into an ADV-level dedicated Triage hive, to provide a pure triage hive at a lower-level. There's also potential in introducing a STD-level Triage hive to complement such a proposed X-3 Triage and the traditional Wyki Triage hives.
Now we get to the part that will probably be considered, if not outright controversial, then at least very radical.
It's quite simple. We retool the K17/D (R) and Allotek (R) nanohives to be more like the Compact nanohive, but you simply carry more of them at the high-end. IMO, the K17/D (R) and Allotek (R) hives are the logical extension of the Compact nanohive, merely as a larger, higher-capacity, lower-rate solution. IMO, this is... subpar. Primarily because there seems to be a disconnect between the STD-level Compact and the higher-end rep+resupply hives. A desire for both reps and ammo would best be fulfilled by simply providing a higher-tier Compact hive variant wherein you carry more hives.
Here's the proposed statblock, along with the recommended X-3 Quantum to X-3 Triage change:
STD-level Compact Nanohives: change armor rep rate from 50 HP/s to 40 HP/s. This will become obvious momentarily.
K17/D (R) to K17/D Compact: from 2 max deployed, 2 carried, to 2 deployed, 3 carried; 48 clusters->25 clusters, resupply rate 7.5%->25%, armor repair rate 20 HP/s->40 HP/s, effective range from 6 meters->2 meters. Fitting requirements would change from 63 CPU/12 PG to 25 CPU/5 PG- there is a slight (5 CPU/1 PG) discount for the equivalent of carrying three compact hives as a single K17/D Compact module over carrying them separately.
Allotek (R) to Allotek Compact: more or less, the only difference between the K17/D Compact and Allotek Compact would be as follows: 2 max active, 4 carried, 35 CPU/7 PG. While the discount isn't quite as good by percentage, it's still the case that you can fit an Allotek Compact for less CPU/PG- and especially less slots- than the equivalent number of traditional compact nanos.
X-3 Quantum to X-3 Triage: more or less, the changes are quite simple: remove resupply rate, add a 55 HP/s rep rate, and then change the name from "Quantum" to "Triage".
Incidentally, this then creates a stepped variance between Compact and Triage Hives. Compact reps at 40 HP/s, and resupplies ammo, and has really low fitting requirements, but has a tiny AoE. ADV Triage has a large AoE, 15 more reps per second for 55 HP/s, but has higher fitting reqs and can't resupply ammo. PRO Triage has the same drawbacks, with the added advantage of 70 HP/s- nearly double that of Compact rep rate.
With this being said, I by no means consider this a definitive concept- there are probably ways to integrate ADV-level Triage hives and ADV/PRO level Compact hives (which would best be implemented as "not better hives, but more carried", IMO) with the existing dual-purpose and resupply hives.
However, there is no one in the world who could convince me that the PRO Flux hives have any use or even a reason to exist, and I highly doubt that there exists a person who can convince me of the utility of the ADV-level Quantum hives.
Since there's only about 500 characters left, I must now confine my drop uplink analysis to a fourth post. This is turning into the forum equivalent of a full-length movie, and I still have no idea where it will end.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
109
|
Posted - 2014.11.14 21:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
So, now we're at part four, and hopefully this will be the last part. For those who may be wondering, any edits to the above were minor syntax corrections.
Drop Uplink Analysis. So, Links. I think the biggest thing that jumps out at me is this:
Why do we need sixty spawns worth of links? I mean, that's nearly four times as many players are on a team, and more than a third the total clone count of a Dom or Skimish match. It just seems ridiculously overkill.
I mean, currently due to how link mechanics are structured, it sort of makes sense... but that has more to do with the fact that we're not carrying very many links in total. The expectation almost seems like a link is supposed to be destroyed or made irrelevant by changing battle conditions than to be completely expended.
There's also the issue of how this change interacts with the Amarr Logi bonus. Currently, the referenced proto links have 20 spawns per link, with 3 carried. With the AmLogi bonus, this becomes 30 spawns per link, with 3 carried, for a total of 90 spawns.
Using the proposed numbers of 5 spawns/link, 12 links carried... I arrive at a whopping one hundred eighty potential spawns. 180! That's more than ten times as many players per team, and is 20% more than the total clone count per team of any game mode!
Currently, with maxed out AmLogi and Link skills, the AmLogi provides a 50% increase in potential spawns with basic, Flux, and Stable-variant proto links. Under the proposal as-stated, however, this goes to an insane 300% increase. Which leads to a very important question:
Is the Amarr Logi bonus broken, in reference to the proposal, or was it merely the victim of unintended consequence. I submit that it is the former- I only thought to examine this when I was thinking about how Quantum-variant links seem rather useless to me, as an Amarr Logi.
Let me explain: the Amarr Logi bonus includes a +2 spawn count per level value. At max skills, this is +10 spawn count for every link deployed. Obviously, this seems pretty cool. In practice, however, it's quite lackluster. Quantum-variant links, which generally provide a +33% to +50% spawn count bonus, IIRC, either make this bonus irrelevant and/or useless, or the inverse occurs- an Amarr Logi player has no reason to equip Quantum links, as the likelihood that they will expend as many as 40 spawns (proto Quantum links, IIRC, are 30 spawns/link) is incredibly low.
Not only is that nearly 33% of the teams total clone reserve in Dom/Skirmish modes, thus meaning it's actually paradoxically bad for an AmLogi to provide forty spawns from a single link and have every single one used up, but it's also far more likely that the link will be found and then popped, or rendered irrelevant to battle conditions depending on where the fighting is heaviest at a particular moment.
At which point I surmised that Quantum links could very likely be removed from the game with zero ill effect. At the same time, I also noticed that:
1. There is no Stable Link variant at ADV, but there is at STD and PRO. More or less, the "Flux Scanner" problem.
2. Flux links quickly obsolete basic links; the only downside is ISK cost, but the benefit is a faster spawn time- significantly so if the deployer uses an AmLogi suit. Flux links have the same spawn count and fitting requirements as basic links, making the problem that much worse.
3. Gauged links are very nice, but suffer from being restricted to proto-level, and IMO should really be limited to "you get to carry more, but you can only deploy the same amount". Gauged nanohives have the same problem as well. They also suffer from consisting of "+1 carried, +1 active", which seems odd that there is a specific variant for, given that STD links are "1 active, 2 carried", and ADV links are currently "2 active, 2 carried"; I'll note a solution momentarily.
As far as solutions, I offer the following, in no particular order:
---Reduce the number of links carried. My gut says to cut it by half, to 6 max carried, as it just feels weird that I'd be able to carry more individual links than nanos. However, I think it would be more reasonable to cut it down to 8 carried instead of 12.
---Give flux links an actual drawback. My personal opinion is that flux links should have a reduced spawn count; under the proposal I would recommend instead that flux links have fewer total carried; if basic links are cut down to 8 carried, then flux should be 4 or 5 carried, IMO. If basic link carry capacity is retained as-is, then I would recommend 6 flux uplinks carried, with 5 spawns per link.
---With your proposal, I would recommend that Quantum links consist of fewer carried, but with more spawns; as an example, proto Quantum links would have 10 spawns per link; under the current proposal I would recommend 6 links carried- this then creates a dynamic of "more spawns, but less links", making Quantum links a sort of 'low-maintenance' variant. If my suggestion of reducing the carried link value to 8 were to be implemented, then I would recommend 4-5 links carried for Quantum links.
---Introduce a Stable link variant at ADV level, as it doesn't make any sense as to why there are STD and PRO stable links, but not ADV Stable links.
---Remove Gauged equipment variants and adjust other variants accordingly. Under the current system, this would look like: 2 active/3 carried for ADV level Links/Nanos, and 3 active/4 carried for PRO level Links/Nanos. Under the proposal- which I like much better, BTW- I do not see any reason that we couldn't just roll Gauged variants into the basic model.
As far as a potential adjustment to equipment fitting costs to make them more difficult to mount to non-Logi suits, I'll sit out on that for the moment; for one, it's currently tabled, and for two, I'd need to organize my thoughts on it.
And I am (finally) finished. I hope this is very helpful to Cross, and other posters.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
113
|
Posted - 2014.11.15 06:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Doshneil Antaro wrote:*snipped stuff about repair tool changes and problems with sentinels*
Repair tool idea is interesting, but as I am refusing to touch reppers with an eleven foot pole I consider myself unqualified to comment on that aspect.
The sentinel part though? It's very simple: Sentinels should not be in CQC, and should instead be retooled as a long-range fire support platform. Seriously, a sentinel user is then faced with their disadvantages, like incredibly low mobility when on foot.
Doshneil Antaro wrote:Edit: I support the bandwith per equipment per suit as I asked for years ago that CCP is finally considering. I'm also against REs being replenished with hives/supply depots. It is the only equipment that murders but yet does not have the same drawback as other placed equipment. All equipment needs to be well thought out and not easily replenished.
I agree on the bandwidth idea, but I disagree on the equipment replenishment. Particularly considering the proposal to reduce the capacities of a single hive or link, and increase the number carried- thus making it more difficult to spam them (since they will be expended at significantly higher rates)- means that a smoother equipment replenishment system is required.
I would recommend that nanohives and droplinks be replenished by supply depots, but not deployed nanos- the latter doesn't make much sense after all.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
113
|
Posted - 2014.11.15 06:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
While I am a big fan of bring DUST and EVE closer in conceptual design... it's a stupid idea for an infantry unit to have no ability to shoot stuff in the face. Almost every player will, at some point, have to run around on foot.
If such a player chooses a logi suit, I'm sure they would appreciate being able to shoot something in the face. I mean, look at Team Fortress 2 (which I haven't actually played), where the medic has some pretty amazeballs ability (so I've heard, at least), and still has a freakin' gun.
Even Blizzard's new FPS, with it's super-supporty-medic-class, still gives said class a freakin' gun.
TL;DR: don't replace the Logi's gun with a repair tool. It's stupid and a fail idea.
Addendum: racial repair tools is an admittedly cool idea. Still, no likes for you.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
114
|
Posted - 2014.11.15 18:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Meee One wrote:I am so glad no one can read.  The weaponless logistics would be a variation not a replacement. Just like the equipment they hold,logistics would have a non-combat variety. Where the current gun toting logistics suffers base stat wise. This new completely separate variety would sacrifice offensive power for defensive.
The problem is not "no one can read", the problem is that the idea is still stupid, even if it's a variant platform. Considering that DUST is a shooter, it doesn't make any sense as to why there should be a class with no ability to kill enemies whatsoever.
Because really all that happens, is that such a class can try to run away, but will mostly just die slowly and helplessly. It would be like heavies in Chrome, when they were free kills that shot stuff a little bit but mostly just died in a proverbial fire.
Meee One wrote:And as for hybrid hives being repurposed.
I'd prefer copy and paste current compact stats on amount refilled and cluster amount.
Still keeping 1 deployed per level.
STD- 1 carried
ADV- 2 carried
Pro- 3 carried
The smaller bubble would make them more useful to players that try to hide.
Eg.Snipers,scouts,etc
I was simply offering my opinion on how to implement additional compact nano variants at ADV and PRO levels. As I said, it was by no means a definitive solution, merely the one that, quite honestly, first came to mind. Part of my goal was to help make sure that it is more difficult to spam nanohives; I'd honestly say that proposal I set forth would be more suited to the current game state than to combine it with the suggested nanohive changes in the 3rd iteration spreadsheet.
However, I also think that if the hybrid hives are retained mostly as-is, then they need a lot of adjustment. My personal recommendation would be to adjust compact nanos down slightly in rep rate only, to 40 HP/s, nudge the K17/D (R) up to 30 HP/s, and the Allotek (R) up to 50 HP/s; the primary advantage of compact nanos should generally be their very low fitting costs, not their surprisingly incredible rep rate.
Keep in mind that 40 HP/s is still really awesome as well.
Sgt Kirk wrote:I'm completely confused why Assaults are getting a profile damp when they are "Assaults".
Shouldn't their thing be scan range? Or maybe it's just the Gallente assault that's damped and you have the other Assaults doing the appropriate Assault eWar for their race.
As someone once said to me, this just makes way too much sense. Incidentally, it opens the door for Caldari scouts to be made the scan precision masters, creating a proper interplay between Caldari and Gallente scout EWAR interplay. It also means that my pet idea of giving the Amarr Scout a biotics module efficacy bonus could be implemented.
Distributing EWAR so that Logis have reasonably good precision, Scouts have good precision and amazeballs damping, and Assaults have amazeballs range? I like this idea- season with a Sentinel role change to long-range fire support, and assaults are now an excellent offensive/defensive CQC platform, in addition to their general-purpose flexibility.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:Particularly if precision enhancing mods affected ... active scans. Ouch! We can't have 90 degree / 200m scanners pinging below 21 dB. That'd completely remove any reason to ever run damps on an Assault.
I'm reasonably certain that any and every person who's very scanner-savvy agrees that the Proto Flux scanner is actually broken. Referencing myself, I recommend that we simply swap the scan angles of the PRO-level Proxy and Flux scanners- the short-ranged Proxy now has a useful scan angle of 90 degrees, while the long-range Flux has an appropriate scan angle of 45 degrees.
The other side of why that's a bad idea is twofold: for one, it doesn't actually make sense (why do dropsuit scan mods effect a self-contained equipment device?), and for two, I'm quite certain that there's about a dozen different ripple effects that you haven't considered, most of which will not be known until after people play with it for about a day.
Of course, I do think it may be appropriate to slightly lower the cooldown on the Focused scanner, as 40 seconds of cooldown for an, IIRC, 5-second paint time is pretty nearly useless.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
116
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 05:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
I think what John is getting at is the fact that an improved equipment fitting bonus means that it's easier to fit like a logi- IE, equipment is generally prioritized and the equipment chosen is typically of similar tier to the suit- than to fit like an assault, where tank and gank are prioritized and equipment choice comes down to "whatever fits".
Random note: some people build fits with like 2 PG leftover, and an empty equipment slot. This bugs me, because you could throw a compact nano on there, and compact nanos are pretty awesome.
Back on topic, given that RE's and proxies are equipment (and thus get the fitting bonus), then a bomber fit is still very possible- in fact it might be the case that logi-bombers become more common than scout-bombers... which I honestly would prefer given that it's a lot easier to see a logi coming for you.
Paraphrasing what was probably the best way I saw it put (and I think it was John who said it too), was thusly: you've got two players, A and B. A is a guy who just likes to shoot things in the face, while B is a logibro to the core. They use the same suit, with 300 CPU and 60 PG. A loads his suit down with tank and gank, skipping equipment. B fits equipment to the tune of 100 CPU and 20 PG, using the rest (200 CPU/40 PG) for tank and gank.
CCP patches the game, changing the suit to 275 CPU and 55 PG instead of the previous 300/60, while also giving it a -25% bonus to CPU/PG usage for equipment. Player A flips out, because his god-mode slayer fit is now impossible to build. Player B chuckles quietly to himself, while going on with his usual routine and fitting habits.
Because Player B used only 200 CPU/40 PG to fill out his fit after fitting equipment, his fit never changes- while his equipment used to cost 100 CPU/20 PG, because it's now using 25% less CPU/PG, it instead requires only 75 CPU and 15 PG. Adding that to the previous 200/40 that was used for tank and gank, we get 275 CPU and 55 PG.
So having a good fitting bonus means that it's easier to fit equipment, and makes it difficult to just max out tank&gank without any regard to equipment. Moreover, it also makes it easier to fit higher-end equipment to a suit. I find that the equipment fitting bonus has been positively critical in my AmLogi fits- though I would never say no to more PG. And a different slot layout. That would be nice too.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
119
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Posted - 2014.11.16 21:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Things like the flux nanohive/proximity scanner being useless while flux scanner is OP,
Snipped to just the part I wanted to address.
Also, "@Cross" because I think he'd benefit from seeing this;
More-or-less, the way to fix the proxy/flux scanner relationship is quite simple: swap the scan angles. If proxies continue to be underused, then widen the proxy scan angle some more. Flux scanners, however, should be pulled out when you need that pure scan range- like, say, hunting along a ridgeline for a sniper.
As for the flux nanohive... I cannot conceive of any potential use for it, so I would argue that it would be simpler to simply remove it. At present it seems to only be useful if you want to spam hives, and so removing them makes it harder to spam hives (especially when combined with the nano changes in the 3rd iteration proposal), and also removes useless content.
After all, I'm sure that it can be agreed that useless content is not content, it's a waste of space.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
120
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Posted - 2014.11.17 03:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
That's a very good point, and reminded me of a short conversation I had with a squad I was running with in Caldari FW... which was a painful experience (the FW part, that is).
One squad member offered the opinion that he saw no reason to take sidearms away from logis- assaults (are intended to, at least) have awesome weapon bonuses, and more tank, while logis boast multiple equipment slots. He also was of the opinion that all logis should have four equipment slots.
He presented an interesting viewpoint, IMO, in that he believed that the tradeoffs between assault and logi should effectively come down to base health and suit bonuses- assaults getting weapon bonuses and logis getting equipment bonuses, with assaults also having a base HP advantage.
Also, Scanner Comments: I personally think that we should implement two different intel kill assist bonuses; the current +15 (or perhaps even buffed to a +20 or +25) for squadmates, and then +5 or +10 WPs for teammates. In practice, this would look like this:
+15 (or +20/+25) WP Squad Intel Kill Assist
+5 (or +10) WP Team Intel Kill Assist
I think this offers a cleaner solution any issues with active scanners at present. IIRC, all scout suits are at 35 dB native profile, so an increased prevalence of scanners really shouldn't bother them, as the vast majority of the playerbase is likely to not be interested in making the ISK investment of taking their 36 dB precision ADV active scanner and upgrading to the 28 dB precision PRO version.
I'd also like to see resupplies be retooled so that WPs are either rewards on a per-"pulse" basis, that is that for each "pulse" of ammo that a hive gives, you get WPs (likely only +5 WPs per pulse), or if the current "per-person" mechanic is retained then I would recommend doubling the bonus to +20 WPs.
The disparity comes from the fact that with the former retooling of the resupply-reward mechanics each time you get an ammo pulse, the person who deployed the hive gets WP- for example, say I lay a K-2 nanohive down for Cross, who has a Scrambler Rifle with no SP invested in ammo capacity. He's completely dry of ammo, so has to go from 0 to 225 rounds.
Each pulse of a K2 nano will deliver 22 or 23 rounds, depending on how CCP does their math. We'll just say it takes ten pulses to restore Cross's ammo entirely. If WPs are given for each pulse, at +5 WPs per pulse, then I now have 50 WPs worth of "Team Resupply" bonuses. If, on the other hand, the current mechanic is retained, then I would guess that I would probably have around 20 WPs- at the most- from resupplying Cross.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
128
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Posted - 2014.11.19 06:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
For the record, that "hidden" bonus for nanohives comes from the Nanocircuitry skill providing a 5% CPU reduction per level to nanohives and needles.
The only flaw of that skill is that it's simply not listed in the description that there's a CPU reduction bonus. Any "hotfix" of that should be to merely add the appropriate description to the skill so it's a case of "oh, hey, if I increase my Nanocircuitry skill, I get access to better hives and a reduction in hive/needle CPU usage? awesome!"
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
136
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Posted - 2014.11.21 00:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:@Shayz: I'm still not really coming around to the uplinks with only 5 spawns but you can carry a crapton of them thing. Instead of 5 spawns and carry 8, why not 10 spawns and you carry 4? Obviously the quantum uplinks with 25 spawns or whatever never get used, but why not a middle ground?
I think it's even less helpful with the BW mechanic. Placing fallback positions will be a major pain if I can only put out like 4 uplinks with 5 spawns each at a time.
One thing to remember, however, is the interaction that the Amarr Logi skill bonuses have with links. So, at max skills, you'll go from 5 spawns/per link to 15 instead, a 300% increase.
I actually pointed out how this could become potentially ridiculous here:
myself wrote:Drop Uplink Analysis. So, Links. I think the biggest thing that jumps out at me is this:
Why do we need sixty spawns worth of links? I mean, that's nearly four times as many players are on a team, and more than a third the total clone count of a Dom or Skimish match. It just seems ridiculously overkill.
I mean, currently due to how link mechanics are structured, it sort of makes sense... but that has more to do with the fact that we're not carrying very many links in total. The expectation almost seems like a link is supposed to be destroyed or made irrelevant by changing battle conditions than to be completely expended.
There's also the issue of how this change interacts with the Amarr Logi bonus. Currently, the referenced proto links have 20 spawns per link, with 3 carried. With the AmLogi bonus, this becomes 30 spawns per link, with 3 carried, for a total of 90 spawns.
Using the proposed numbers of 5 spawns/link, 12 links carried... I arrive at a whopping one hundred eighty potential spawns. 180! That's more than ten times as many players per team, and is 20% more than the total clone count per team of any game mode!
But even considering the potential ridiculosity, it does mean that, potentially, we could make Quantum-variant links a distinctive variation; fewer links carried, but more spawns per link- the net should actually be that the total spawns per fitted module favors the basic variant, while Quantum variant links have higher spawn count per link, with fewer carried.
Expanding that to the Flux and Stable variants, Flux variants should have faster spawns per link, but fewer total links carried, while Stable links should have fewer total links carried and a slightly longer spawn delay than basic-variant links. To counterbalance the spawn time and total carried drawbacks of Stable-variant links, they should generally cost 60-75% the CPU/PG to fit compared to an equal-tiered link.
As far as Gauged links, I'm honestly not sure what to do about those.
Side note: Flux nanos need to be dropped like a flaming honey badger. They serve no useful purpose whatsoever.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
137
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Posted - 2014.11.21 02:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:That is pretty crazy.
Quantums sticking around as the middle ground option between the current and what we have now sounds good. You could just get rid of gauged links, really, they wouldn't have much purpose with the proposed change.
Yeah, Gauged links as of now are interesting and useful, given that you can carry more links and especially the more links deployed benefit... but they end up not being especially useful under the equipment rebalance proposal that is part of the 3rd iteration in the OP.
I'd also like to further bring to attention the tiering imbalance of Stable links- they have a STD and PRO variant, but not an ADV model. I believe this should be fixed, as it doesn't make much sense.
It's a little like the issue with Scanners- there's a Flux scanner at STD and PRO, but not at ADV, while Stable scanners only exist at ADV level- no PRO variant to speak of. It'd also be nice if there was a STD variant, but I think that Stable scanners need more of a drawback than "it costs more ISK".
Also, I'd like to comment on Shayz's equipment spreadsheet:
I-Shayz-I wrote:Here ya go :P https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_ytb13XWe3th0KUWFdNJD5NS_0Pqv5U8acUmhPxh6Ss/edit?usp=sharingTook me a few hours but this is the rough proposal I have for how equipment should be changed based on the feedback in this post and my own personal opinions. For the isk page I decided to standardize prices for equipment...again these are rough numbers not biased on how effective certain equipment are or what is used more. Part of me wanted to do this for FW items but I got about 30 minutes in and realized that until we have a standardized isk price for items it would be impossible to try and give each FW item a fair price.
I'll start with the ISK pricing changes, as that's where my main issue lies, I think. Simply put, I think a lot of the pricing is too high. For the most part, I would argue that a single equipment mod should have an ISK cost that is approximately 20-25% that of an equal-tier light weapon.
Keep in mind that, depending on the particular light weapon, it's often very easy to fit both a PRO weapon and a full rack of PRO equipment- if each single PRO equipment mod is 25% the cost of a single PRO light weapon, for example, a Logi will still end up paying more for their suit than an assault of equal fitting/tier, even if that assault fits a PRO sidearm.
The difference is that the price gap is significantly reduced. Compared to now, that's a quite substantial benefit, IMO.
Now, admittedly the pricing is, as you said, merely a rough normalization... but I would humbly contend that the normalization that you have put forth is still a bit too pricy. It especially looks as if the net cost of an ADV-level logi rig is going to go up, and likely by a not-inconsiderable amount.
As far as the equipment stat changes:
Repair Tools
As I've commented before, I do not use repair tools, so I will leave these to those more experienced (and interested) in the use of reppers.
Drop Uplinks
Honestly, I think that the PRO-variants are the only ones that look good. That said, I also think that there's just not enough stat differentiation.
First off, the Abyss variant links are, quite frankly, fine in their current configuration- aside from the AUR-only aspect, that is. Can we get the Abyss variant changed to an ISK-purchased item?
Secondly, Quantum links do not offer enough of an increased spawn-count per link to be compelling. I can confidently say that with the numbers you propose, I would never use Quantum links. Admittedly, I don't use Quantum links at present anyways- I find that the Amarr Logi bonus somewhat obsoletes the Quantum Uplink. Here, however, there's just not enough of a difference to make Quantum links compelling.
Third, Flux links are still obsoleting basic links. The only disadvantage Flux links offer is the price hike. That's it.
I'd also like to mention that Gauged links still come off as redundant, but that has more to do with Gauged links just being generally redundant anyway. Stable links are also seeming like they have no actual differentiation besides what could be expressed as "less filling"; Stable links pretty much offer the same conundrum as Stable scanners- they do almost everything better than the lower-tier variants, only requiring an ISK hike.
Nanohives
Generally, these look good. I think my favorite part is the alteration of Flux nanos (which are useless) into a PRO-level Quantum variant.
With that said... I still question the usefulness of a Quantum-variant nanohive, even with your proposed change of "same resupply rate, MOAR clusters". That said, the proposed alteration of Quantum-variants going from "faster resupply" to "moar clusters" is potentially interesting- I would wager that dedicated Caldari Logis would probably like it best, as it then kicks their bonus into being more effective (due to more base clusters) for establishing an entrenched defensive position.
Also, what are your thoughts on an ADV-level Triage nano?
Scanners
Generally, I like. About the only issues I see are that Focused scanners still seem like they have a lack of usefulness even given their precision advantage- but that has more to do with the tremendously long cooldown. I would recommend dialing it back to 35 seconds- just 5 less than the current.
I'd also like to mention that Stable scanners need a legitimate drawback other than "higher ISK price".
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