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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.08.12 08:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
I could go on about all the things that are really wrong, like the false revive indicators and the ****** reptool lock on mechanics and the laggy equipment selection etc. But there is not much point in talking about actually fixing anything in Dust, as that won't ever happen, so I'll stick to things Rattati might be able to affect by fiddling with some numbers server side.
How to actually improve the experience and effectiveness of the Logistics role?
Despite some people jumping up and crying about slayer logis (what slayer logis? I think you'll find they, for the most part, moved over to scout suits months ago) I do think the survivability of the Logi suits needs to be looked at. Now, a direct HP buff is not the only way to do that, necessarily, as there are other things that affect survivability, like regen or resists for instance. Now, for an example, a reasonable amount of resistance to projectiles/explosives would serve a minlogi well in the role CCP has assigned it as the designated heavy repper. Queue the "But that's OP!"
What's the point in having a support role in a game if most that support player is good for is providing kills for the enemy team?
I won't claim to have some sort of magical solution to this, and I personally don't like this trend that we're on of HP buff for one class, then another, then another... straight up HP buffs shouldn't be the only solution to everything.
Anyway, I am just going to assume that actual buff to logi suits won't happen, as there will always be people who will start screaming about slayer logis (which, again, haven't really been an issue since 1.8, but who cares to consider that). And CCP does seem to listen to the loudest mob anyway.
So, how to improve the Logistics ROLE without buffing the oh so scary logistic suit? How about, for a start, improve equipment, make it more worthwhile to carry even in a suit that doesn't have a bonus to that specific equipment. Also, decrease the cost of the equipment, why does the most fragile suit in the game have to be the most expensive by far (when, you know, actually fitted to fill its role)? Make one of the scout suits' equipment slots cloak only, so that people won't find it as easy to cover the Logistics role without actually using a Logi suit? I even do that myself, I don't use a cloak on my scout, I run it with uplinks and hives in situations where I know running my Logi would be pointless. And the scout is, in almost all circumstances, the best suit for repping heavies there is currently.
Now, I don't really feel like going into too much detail about the Logi suit bonuses, that'd be enough for a whole another long winded post, but I will say I don't think all the suits should have the same bonuses as much as I don't like the whole bonus to one equipment only thing either.
And someone in this thread suggested something I have actually made jokes about many times, as in, giving Minlogi a bonus to REs/Proxies... this would actually make sense, much more than the reptool, as the REs are actually Minmatar tech in spirit too, unlike the reptool. And I don't see this ever happening, can you imagine the QQ?  But, oh, it would be glorious.
-Support Logi since Fall 2012
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.08.12 08:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cass Caul wrote:
Nanite Injector: It's a ******* piece of ****. It's been 2 years. The guys on the CPM0 were telling CCP even before it was released how aboslute game-breaking terrible it would be if you can just pick up anyone. ATM terribads and troll are the only ones that carry them.
Have to just say... Just because you use a needle for "trolling"/grieving doesn't mean everyone else holds that same mentality, and also, most people don't have nearly as hilarious **** fit reaction to being revived as you do, so I think you are overestimating the trolling potential of the needle. But thanks for calling me a terribad, sweetie ;)
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.08.12 10:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
Make the scanner light up the user on the radar to his targets. Rather like active sonar, it should work both ways. You pinpoint THEM, but they pinpoint YOU.
Great idea! ...as long as it applies to passive scans as well, not just the active scanner :P
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.08.12 11:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Scanners need to have a margin for error, allowing suits to sometimes spoof the radar instead of being autodetection.
I would make the chance low .
Make the scanner light up the user on the radar to his targets. Rather like active sonar, it should work both ways. You pinpoint THEM, but they pinpoint YOU.
Scanning in Dust should have worked at least a little bit more like ewar in Eve, with things like optimal and falloff ranges for scans. So you would introduce a sliding scale of uncertainty in scans based on distance, for instance. And then things like sprinting, using equipment, firing a weapon could increase a suit's profile temporarily, kind of like the cloak reduces the profile for its duration, and certain mods could have penalties to profile too. These thing would make the stealth game dynamic and actually interesting, as opposed to the 100% on/off it is now.
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.08.12 11:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:
Great idea! ...as long as it applies to passive scans as well, not just the active scanner :P
Negative sir, rather like passive sonar, if you aren't actively pinging you can sit and listen all damn day without alerting anyone so long as you don't fart too loudly. Passive scans are your sensors listening for EM feedback whether that feedback be some jerk broadcasting homoerotic slashfic over their comms or the energy signature of a charging forge gun. Since your passive sensors are not pinging nois out (hence passive) there is nothing to detect from them. But since an active scanner is pinging it should flash your ass to the enemy team.
Well, I thought was kind of clearly being facetious there... 
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.09.19 02:40:00 -
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Cross Atu wrote:bogeyman m wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:This morning when I was picked up twice with a Red standing 20m in front of me in plain sight, I got the idea that there should be a -25 WP penalty if you pick someone up and they die again within 5 seconds.
My role in the context of the Support class: Victim!
I consider the guy who picked me up twice without clearing the area to be an accomplice to my repeated murder. Maybe if there was a penalty for such negligence people would learn?
Mandatory 'request revive' would help prevent this. While request revive would be helpful it is also worth noting that aside from the thoothless KDR stat there is no loss in such situations. Are they frustrating? Yes of course. However no fits or clones are lost until bleed out so the net effect is actually tactically advantageous to your side as a hostile is spending both attention and ammo to repeatedly down a merc who would otherwise have been downed anyway. From a play perspective it needs addressed to keep things fun certainly, but from a tactical perspective a neg reward does not make any sense because the action is actually still contributing positively towards the win. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ in essence the request revive before revive is possible would be ideal here
Well, you aren't entirely correct in your assertion here that the enemy gains nothing (tactically) from repeatedly downing the same enemy... Every kill in that situation is 50-60 wp towards that squad's warbarge strike, which, in the right hands, is very much a tactical advantage. So, the other perspective to this situation would be that someone mindlessly reviving the same ally over and over again is actually helping the enemy team gain an advantage, not helping their own team, as they are tying up a merc that could have spawned and gotten back into the fight and keeping themselves from doing something actually useful.
Now, I don't subscribe to that above view as such, I think kdr whores can go QQ in COD or whatever, imho saving a clone (and potentially isk, even though some people don't care, others do) is more important than anyone's kdr, but there is no reason to be stupid about it either.
I for one still almost always carry a needle on my logi suit - doesn't mean I mindlessly and blindly rush toward every downed ally to get that 60 points no matter what. Unfortunately, in recent months I have lost faith in the logis left in dust, as I almost never even see a needle when I go down, and when I do, 90% of the time I get picked up only when and where I really didn't want to... i.e. in front of a tank/a heavy/a sniper/the whole ******* enemy team. Seriously, I used to mock people who raged about bad pick ups, but recently... well, there really don't seem to be anything BUT bad pick ups left :(
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.09.19 13:17:00 -
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Cross Atu wrote:
Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases).
Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000.
Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums.
Cheers,
Cross
I am actually pretty much entirely sure you are wrong there. When you revive someone THE FIRST TIME you get the 60 points. If they get killed again within a very short time, and get revived, no WP is awarded for the pick up, even if they are picked up by another player.
So, no, the WP from the repeated revives doesn't nullify anything.
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.09.19 18:03:00 -
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Cross Atu wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases).
Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000.
Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums.
Cheers,
Cross
I am actually pretty much entirely sure you are wrong there. When you revive someone THE FIRST TIME you get the 60 points. If they get killed again within a very short time, and get revived, no WP is awarded for the pick up, even if they are picked up by another player. So, no, the WP from the repeated revives doesn't nullify anything. Depends on how quickly it happens, but yes there is a cool down in place, however if we are looking at a theoretical in which it is only revive-get shot-revive-repeat for very long at all that is either A) people specifically farming the mechanic, or B) almost never going to actually happen. So in those actual situations yes it does tend to cancel out, further even were that not the case it would still generally be minutiae as mentioned, subjective in impact (either pos or neg) as mentioned, and addressed by the proposed solution.
Whether it's "minutiae" or not is irrelevant, I was just countering your statement that the repeated reviving of an ally that then keeps getting killed again is an advantage to the team ;)
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.09.20 12:42:00 -
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Cross Atu wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
Which is nullified or more than made up for by the 60 wp per revive. Now I am in no way advocating careless revives, they are not something I condone however the point remains that tactically they aren't detrimental (though they are mediocre in many cases).
Now there are many permutations that can make it more subjective of course, what would either merc be doing otherwise for example, or if any blues are going to flank that red, or if any reds flank the downed merc and logi, etc. but speaking of the behavior itself in a vacuum it is on balance valuable because the guaranteed 60 per revive outweighs 50 (possible 60 on a head shot) of downing the clone. Of course it is a very small margin, and further the wp aren't that meaningful in this context as a few +50 or +60 are a very small portion of 5000.
Obviously solving the base problem is still ideal, the point was simply that the teeth of the issue aren't all that meaningful and tend to get a bit overblown on the forums.
Cheers,
Cross
I am actually pretty much entirely sure you are wrong there. When you revive someone THE FIRST TIME you get the 60 points. If they get killed again within a very short time, and get revived, no WP is awarded for the pick up, even if they are picked up by another player. So, no, the WP from the repeated revives doesn't nullify anything. Depends on how quickly it happens, but yes there is a cool down in place, however if we are looking at a theoretical in which it is only revive-get shot-revive-repeat for very long at all that is either A) people specifically farming the mechanic, or B) almost never going to actually happen. So in those actual situations yes it does tend to cancel out, further even were that not the case it would still generally be minutiae as mentioned, subjective in impact (either pos or neg) as mentioned, and addressed by the proposed solution. Whether it's "minutiae" or not is irrelevant, I was just countering your statement that the repeated reviving of an ally that then keeps getting killed again is an advantage to the team ;) My point was that all of that was covered by my prior post so long as the context of the post itself is applied.
*sigh* And my point was, that first, I disagree with your assertion that needlefucking gives a tactical advantage of any kind, and more importantly, follow me here, I was correcting your statement "made up for by the 60 wp per revive". Now the context for this is, I have played a support logi for over 2 years, I have heard all sort of accusations and missapprehensions about logis and logistics tools, mainly from people who don't use them. This particular one: "WP whoring logis go around mindlessly reviving people over and over again to farm them for hundreds of points" - which they'd know is not possible, if they actually used a needle themselves.
So, I simply don't want that misapprehension to be spread further on the forums, particularly by a CPM member. Now, I am willing to believe you actually were aware of the mechanic (being the CPM member on the forums actually discussing Logistics, I should hope so), and just chose to ignore it to make your point. I was simply correcting that part so the peole not familiar with it aren't left with a false understanding of it. And, yeah, that was left pretty unclear by what you said earlier, no matter how you "apply the context"
That's all. We done? Great. Go back to the regularly scheduled programming.
@Meee One
The issue with directly applying Eve roles to a game like Dust is that, frankly, they are very different types of games. Yes, the logistics role in dust should in many ways be closer to the eve one, but the dedication to full support role requires a lot, maybe too much, from casual players, both from the logi themselves, and the people they'd be playing with. As an eve type logi in dust, you would be fully dependent on your squad (which, yes, in a team based game should in fact be a requirement, but isn't, not in dust), which is hard when the other roles can all be entirely self sustaining in most situations. Yes, a good group that wants to work together will make this work and a squad working together will almost always beat people who aren't. But the overall playerbase in dust has shifted more and more towards casuals and solo play (even when technically in squad), it's just a natural reaction to the shifts in the game, the buffs to the various slayer roles (and, yes, all the non-logis are now slayers) have practically encouraged focusing on solo running and gunning (particularly for scouts, obviously). So what would be the incentive for a squad (or in more competitive play) to protect a full support player, who has no way of defending the squad's flanks or even themselves? In eve, it pays off, but in an FPS like dust... I think the overwhelming majority would consider a player that can't shoot back at an enemy to be deadweight, unfortunately.
Now... If logis (and logis only) could set up defensive turrets (drones ftw) in exchange of not carrying light arms, well that... that'd be interesting ;) Also, obviously not something that would ever happen in dust, unfortunately :(
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.09.20 18:11:00 -
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Meee One wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:@Meee One
You're secksy! Aw shucks,you're pretty too. You must have ignored the parts about sentinel level eHP and scout level speed and regen. And from personal experience,i'm never expected to kill anything,i am however expected to rep and resupply. So,to a pure support player such as myself,a weaponless logi suit that gave the afforementioned traits in exchange would be amazing for my purposes. I like to leave killing to other suits anyway,this would just allow me to do what i already do,only better. Ask anyone who's ever squadded up with me,i kill 100x more enemies with my rep tool than i do with my weapon. 
Yes, and all those things would be great - to a dedicated logistics player with a dedicated squad that wants to and is capable of working with that. And you are lucky to have that, I was just pointing out that would not, sadly, be the experience for a large part of the playerbase. And I do know how great that is, having a squad you can count on and play a dedicated role for, unfortunately most of my peeps I could count on like that have long moved on from this game :(
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:01:00 -
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Meee One wrote:
Weaponless isn't defenseless.
It would be a durable tank with high resists.
High speed and regen.
In eve they already have weaponless logistics.
No, they have a logistics class than can choose to not fit any weapon turrets or launchers, which they often do, but all the eve logistics cruisers have turret and/or launcher hardpoints. So, they are weaponless by choice, if and when they are weaponless at all.
Meee One wrote:If they expect dust/legion to be a long term game they should take into consideration that a FPS shouldn't be just about shooting. And it would give logistics a unique trait. You can be a battle logi. Or you can be an Artificer logi. Battle logi benefits: offense Drawbacks : everything else  So, your "battle logi" is basically the so called slayer logi of days past? I can't see how anyone who actually claims to champion for the logistics role would want that back?
Meee One wrote:
Artificer logi benefits:exteme defense + can have a rep tool/scanner/injector as a main weapon
Drawbacks :loss of offense
Do you mean they CAN equip a rep tool etc. instead of a weapon (like eve logistics) OR that they basically have an extra equipment slot in exchange for a weapon slot? I know you meant the latter, but that's not actually comparable to eve either, just your personal preference, which I think you might be reasonable enough to see might not be a position shared by everyone else.
Meee One wrote:
I know several other players desiring the same suit.
Can you guess why?
Because the logistics suit with a gun is terrible at survival,and to us it isn't fair/worth it to lose so much survivability because of a single weapon.
Your experience, maybe, and that's fair. I do however know that pretty much every single person I play, or have played, regularly with that goes down after barely losing a gunfight would prefer I have a gun to finish off the enemy so I can pick them back up and keep us all fighting, than have to run away from someone with barely any health left because I am entirely defenseless, or weaponless, if you prefer. Or for me to have the ability to use crossfire on a pesky scout that is proving too difficult for one person to finish off, for instance. But to each their own.
Meee One wrote:
It's like saying assaults should be nerfed just as badly because of their 1 equipment.
Tbh,we're getting fed up with being told excuses that it's a 'good thing' logistics dies the easiest,that logistics must stack plates because it can accel at nothing else.
That scouts have the same equipment as a cal logi,yet keep all their weapons and stats.
We see through the BS and hypocrisy easily and it's making us mad.
And we get madder as time goes on and nothing is done about the hypocrisy and BS.
We aren't unreasonable,we throw loads of suggestions at CCP but they are all ignored.
Our pleas are ignored so badly CCP actually decided to f*cking nerf the weakest suit in the game the logistics suit.
Remember the speed nerf? How damned ridiculous was that?
Rattatai actually wanted logistics to go slower based on 'data',then in the same thread based on the same 'data' he said logistics shouldn't have such a high reduction to cloaks,scouts should.
He couldn't even interpret the 'data' correctly and had to be corrected by the players. Yet he felt confident regarding the logistics nerf.
I lost all faith in him right then.
Removing offense is the only way i can see a nerf proof logistics.
Tl;Dr you don't run pure support,so your opinion is worthless to those of us that do.
Now now, you're sounding like certain scouts who thought only they deserved to have an opinion at all on the topic of balancing scouts. Unfortunately you don't get to play logi in a vacuum, like the "pure" scouts didn't get to play in a vacuum either. I for one, as a logi, actually realize that non-logis might have good ideas, and are at least entitled to their opinion, even if I don't agree with them.
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:13:00 -
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Gyn Wallace wrote:Meee One wrote:They accel at assaulting.. I apologize for displaying my pet peeve and/or playing the grammar policeman, but... People who excel at something are excellent at it. Some cars accelerate quickly, but nothing "accels" because that isn't a word. Back on topic: As much as I would love to see a self repair function added to the repair tool, or a reduction in equipment costs, so logis aren't a greater burden on our wallets than running vehicles, the single greatest boon to my running a logi, would be a mild nerf to the decloak delay. Having almost no chance to dodge a scout's second shot, is a higher priority fix in my book, than any direct changes to the logi role. Short of fixing that though, improving the precision of all the active scanners, so we have a chance of scanning damped, cloaked scouts would be a welcome stop-gap measure.
Active scanners need improvements, absolutely. And looks like the next hotfix is at least going to feature a reduction to the decloak animation, which might or might not help. But we will see.
The comparatively high price tag that comes with actually fitting a proper logi suit is definitely a point that has been raised many many times, and still bears repeating. Lowering the price of equipment would not be a direct buff to logis, but rather an incentive to many to use the logistics suit more in its intended role, and actually carry good equipment, as the potential losses wouldn't be as great.
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.11.11 07:28:00 -
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Meee One wrote:ResistanceGTA wrote:You know, a lot of information, can't process as I'm at 2 hours of sleep in the past 40 hours, but I would like to pop in this conversation at some point.
But what's with this 'removing undocumented CPU reduction on Nanocircuitry'? It says it right on the skillbook, just because CCP is lazy and never readded it to the skill description doesn't mean we should remove it. We need more passives, not less. The problem is that other suits besides logistics gets the bonus too.
...why is this a problem? The description doesn't claim it's a logi specific bonus, after all.
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.11.14 17:28:00 -
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Orion Sanjeet wrote:Y'all better stop trying to turn this into a "how shall we best nerf the logi" thread, otherwise, it just might happen.
I think we all know it's coming either way. Hey, when it comes to CCP, might as as well expect the worst.
And one of the main problems is that the loudest voices talking about changes to the logistics role aren't people like you. Who, you know, actually know what they are talking about.
So, I'll blame you, Orion :P
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Posted - 2014.11.14 18:16:00 -
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el OPERATOR wrote:Meee One wrote:Meee One wrote:...  ... I still like this idea. I still hate this idea. Sorry dude.
^Seconded. Though not sorry about it.
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.11.16 10:22:00 -
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Baal Omniscient wrote:
Repair tools, like everything else in the game has done so far, needs an anti-point farming mechanic built in. We nerfed nano hives and uplinks because they were too easy to just continuously farm points with, despite their usefulness to the team. The repair tool should be no different. I know points cut off if the person you're repairing hasn't done damage within a set amount of time, but the amount of points able to be accrued with a repair tool has been a bit laughable for a long time now (Reference: I-Shayz-I videos). I have no problem with a logi being able to work hard and do poorly k/d wise and still hit the top, I'm merely saying the repair tool allows a logi with a heavy or two to repair all match to be at the top in pretty much every match. All I'm saying is is that they are being a little overcompensated WP-wise for their role repairing. A slight drop to WP/rep cycle should smooth things out nicely, dropping it from 25 to 20 would probably even be enough.
Also, repairing the squad lead while he's dropping an OB for points? Totally dumb. Point farming, pure and simple, and for no good reason. This leads into another debate where nobody in a squad should get kills from the OB but all instead get assists since they aren't actually killing the enemy, but simply put: repairing the squad lead while he/she drops an OB should NOT award points.
Lastly, I recommend that the repair tool begins to overheat if you are repairing a suit who's armor is full already. Sitting in an objective repairing two heavies who are full on armor just to farm points shouldn't be a thing. Once a person you are repairing has full armor, your repair tool should start overheating. Make a logi have to pay attention to his job if he's going to be getting points for other people's successes. Just like a heavy has to watch his overheat to deal with multiple targets, a logi should have to pay attention to the one's he's caring for. I'll leave that one where it sits and let you ponder it for a bit.
First: there is another mechanic built in in addition to not gaining points for repping someone who hasn't done any damage, there is also a WP over time cap, which I can assure you most logis are also very familiar with. But yeah, I don't see an issue with dropping triage points down from 25 to say, 20.
The OB point farming is bloody stupid, I agree. And, yes, actually, the OB shouldn't give the squad lead kills, but should instead give everyone in the squad assists (not necessarily 25/each/kill, it could instead be a set amount per kill that is divided amongst the squad, for instance 60 points, so that a 6 man squad gets 10 each, but a 2 man squad earning an OB gets 30 each... just an idle thought)
But I can't agree with you on any changes that make the rep tool any harder to use than it is. The lock on mechanic is still cumbersome as hell, and if there is any lag or framerate issues, locking onto a specific target can be a ******* chore. But of course, there are never any framerate issues in Dust, so... I have had friendlies die on me because I dropped reps to do something else, and then the reptool just WOULD NOT lock on until 3rd or 4th try, costing precious seconds of rep for someone under fire. Having to be constantly dropping and relocking reps because of some idiotic overheat mechanic could quite possibly be the last straw that would make me stop using them entirely, for the first time ever. And I carried a reptool around for an entire build of no personal gain from it, so... Sorry, but not all of us are just warpoint farmers.
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Posted - 2014.11.18 19:03:00 -
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Cross Atu wrote:Cat Merc wrote:So with this idea in place, could you please increase STD and ADV logistics to their full PRO equipment count?
There would still be a reason to skill up to PRO, but STD and ADV logis wouldn't be so limited in their equipment choice. Interested in everyones take on this notion, balanced, OP, a step for suit progression but not enough on its own?
My main reason for running proto logi in pubs for the majority of my dust career was simply because only having 4 equipment slots instead of 3 was too limiting for me. I can (and do) fit 3 proto equipment of an adv logi, problem is I never feel like I can do my job properly with only 3 slots. +1 equipment (and a minor buff to to fitting) to std and adv level logi suits, (in addition to balancing the mod slot progression) would make lower tier logi suits much more viable.
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Posted - 2014.12.04 09:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
Meee One wrote:Z3dog wrote:Hmmm. Rattati locked the equipment bandwidth sticky, but not before raising scout bandwidth and reducing RE bandwidth. And increasing triage hive BW.  8 per? Max deployed is 2,Pro logistics has 32 BW. So it costs 1/2 a Pro logistics BW for 2 hives. Yet you can spam 4 uplinks for the same cost? 
Holy **** I missed that last second switcheroo Would be nice to hear what the "logic" behind that change is...
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Zaria Min Deir
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916
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Posted - 2014.12.15 14:53:00 -
[19] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:
You'll find that any numbers that I choose myself come in two categories:
a) Multiples of 10 that combine easily
b) Totally random
So, basically the same as CCP? ;)
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.12.15 16:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Mister Goo wrote:I like, maybe even change the PE further instead of placing only 1 mine for 800-1200 damage maybe have one drop spread out 3 mines totaling the 800-1200 damage to get better coverage for same damage profile. being able to cover the bridge with 3 mines instead of using 6. Kind of like cluster mines? Would be interesting! That's a more mechanical (ie, heavy code change) approach that would be cool, though I was focusing my suggestion on the numbers that would be easily alterable (ie, Hotfixable) but I am definitely down with that idea!  Hmm...what would the total carried # need to be if you went to the distributed damage model to make this viable? i.e. less dmg per PE but put out more PEs.
Honestly, here we run into not only an issue with the newly introduced bandwidth, but also the risk-reward ratio of a much longer deployment time of an actually effective proxy trap. Yes, laying down a mine field that can instapop a tank shouldn't be risk free OR instanteneous, but it should be viable and not leave the logi vulnerable and unavailable for other tasks for too long either. Current model of having to equip multiple sets, drop down all of the carried from one, then swap, then deploy another set, maybe get on a hive to resuply to be able to deploy the rest (as max carried is always lower than max active, bizarrely) is in itself far from optimal... making this take even longer is in my opinion not desirable. Yes, increasing max carried would help, but I still prefer the model of fewer, but stronger explosives you have to place carefully, over spammable vehicle damage WP farming silliness.
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Zaria Min Deir
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946
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Posted - 2014.12.22 08:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:It has been too long for Cross, I hope he is ok.
I have several of the APEX suits. For the logistics characters I hate the gear slot set up. I believe there was a thread out there that addressed it and seeing if we could change the slot layout of the equipment to be universal on the Apex Logis.
Counting the equipment slots with 1 being at the bottom and 4 (3 for Cal and Amar) being on the far right,
I preferr my Repair Tool to be 4 (3)
and my Nanite injector to be 1
and the variables to be placed in the middle.
I could even go with Repper 4 (3)
and Injector 3 (2)
and the variants in 1 and 2 (1)
I like to play around and I believe that keeping the equipment layout the same between logis (I guess scouts would fit in there too). So it doesn't take me extra time to find what I need.
My layout is so scripted I don't even look on my regular fits, in less than a second I have what I need and I'm just waiting on the animation.
Any guidance for a thread that talks about this?
Otherwise - Cross, please at it to the 'to do list' :)
Thanks
Perhaps this is yet another example of the people designing the game not having played it enough to understand many of the mechanics... Like the fact that, for a logi, order of the equipment in the slots can make a huge difference, particularly with any lag involved on top of the already clunky equipment wheel.
Though I would remind you, there is no universal equipment layout, every logi makes their own, so your preferred order would be annoying to someone else. Though I guess if it was at least consistent between different APEX suits, that would be at least logical (too logical for CCP?)
Pretty much, the issue here is that APEX suits are what they are, BPO suits that are noncustomisable. You knew what you were buing... well, except for (minor) issue, when it comes to the APEX suits, of there being no way to know what you are buying in-game
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.12.23 09:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:We should increase the amount of deployables carried. Hard caps on amount deployed and bandwidth have all but stopped spam save by dedicated logis, so why not help logis not need to visit the supply depot every minute or so to refill on links and hives? For that matter, why not have links and hives refill at supply depots? The issue with that option is that you would need to adjust the Logi suits wih a sgnificantly increased BW or they would need to drop the BW down to a base number of 3. Unnecessary. This does not allow the logi to drop more equipment. It only allows him to replace it easier before needing to refit at a supply depot.
This. It's a question of increasing max carried, not max active.
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Zaria Min Deir
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988
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Posted - 2015.01.03 12:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:
I've seen not mention of any kind of balance / optimization pass for Logi suits mentioned anywhere and there are too many "big idea" topics such as PC re-work that will likely push back any work on our suits even further.
I'm getting pretty frustrated with this.
You're not the only one
I have become more and more convinced that the opportunity to get even the most basic level of an optimization pass for Logi suits passed when the medium suits hotfix ended up just becoming an Assault hotfix... Rattati seems to have moved on pretty decisively from the topic, distracted by "more important", shinier things.
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Posted - 2015.01.29 23:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:DJINN Jecture wrote:From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though. ProMin w/4complex breakers IS fast, still, but it definitely isn't as fast as it used to be. ProMin w/o 4 complex breakers, also, is fast-ish but also isn't as fast as it used to be. "As fast as it used to be" being what I miss about my MinLogis hacking bonus. EDIT: And, yes of course, that it was the fastest possible hacking suit on the block. It's only 5% slower. Like the difference from Hacking 0 to Hacking I. The Min Scout just gets an even greater bonus, thus making the Logi feel way slower. Take a look at the video lee corwood posted. We're talking about 2 tenths, 5 one hundredths, and 2 one thousandths of a second at max skills on a Proto suit. That's nothing, even with the low TTK.
First of all. ANYTHING with 4 complex code breakers hacks fast, even though with the stacking penalties, that 4th one is a bit questionable.
Second. The difference between a pre 1.8 and post 1.8. fully skilled minlogi hack speed is not just 5%. 1.8 removed the minmatar logistics skill bonus of 25%, and buffed the minlogi built in hack speed modifier, yes, but not by 20%. That built in bonus was there pre-1.8. It was just buffed slightly (I seem to remember from 1.1 or 1.15 to 1.2) to differentiate the minlogi from the other logistics suits, which have the 1.15 built in modifier. The difference between minlogi and, say, amarr logi, is only 5%... when pre-1.8 it was considerably more than that.
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2015.03.04 10:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
Meee One wrote:
As an alternative Gal bonus how about module efficiency?
They would then increase the efficiency of modules already present on the suit,aiding in survival.
I am assuming when you say module efficiency here, you actually mean efficacy as CCP uses the term, as in, increasing the output of the module, say x% more HP out of a HP module, and not fitting efficiency.
In which case, not a good idea. I should hope I don't have to remind anyone of the original Cal logi shield module efficacy bonus? And the problems that ensued at least partially because of it... We are all hopefully trying to make all logistics suits better, as in worth running and balanced, making one logi suit the obviously best choice for "slayers" who want multiple equipment slots doesn't in my mind serve that purpose.
And even if giving the Gal logi an efficacy bonus to a non-direct HP module (though, which one?), it would still differentiate the Gal logi very much from the other logis, who are equipment oriented... Which really is what the role is supposed to mainly be about, yes? (At least according to the very much equipment oriented bonuses all the logistics suits currently have.)
And if you do mean efficiency as in fitting efficiency, of a certain type of module... you are still enabling potentially more HP tanking on the gal logi (in comparison to the other logi suits), while also detracting from the equipment orientation of the suit.
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Zaria Min Deir
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1209
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Posted - 2015.03.04 17:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Meee One wrote:
I was talking about the rep target.
Like Min has higher rep amount,Gal would increase the module efficiency on the suit it's repairing not itself.
Well, thank ****. Because I was thinking you'd lost it for good.
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2015.03.12 16:13:00 -
[27] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:Hotfix Echo makes me super happy.
Seeing community ideas being put into the game is probably the best part of Dust Hopefully Hotfix Foxtrot takes some of the ideas from this thread. We only started discussing it 7 months ago to the day. Not getting my hopes up. Learned to not do that ages ago, but a Logi can dream...
Sure, a Logi can dream... But eventually you have to wake up and face reality 
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Posted - 2015.03.12 21:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
Also, not surprising.
The only thing in hotfix echo that could be construed a logistics role buff (the equiment carried amount buff) even somewhat... Didn't go through? At least fully?
Proto hives carried amount still 3 (gauged 4). Adv carried amount 6.
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Posted - 2015.03.13 00:15:00 -
[29] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:Also, not surprising. The only thing in hotfix echo that could be construed a logistics role buff (the equiment carried amount buff) even somewhat... Didn't go through? At least fully? Proto hives carried amount still 3 (gauged 4). Adv carried amount 6. I mean, yes, it buffs the adv hives. A lot. But still. I view it as a nerf. All suits can now carry a shitton of equipment. Scouts have hives and links for days. This makes the need for Logis moot. Two Scouts, 2 Assaults, a Heavy and a Logi will have more than enough equipment to last an entire match. Logis should be the only ones that can carry enough equipment to last a whole match, imho...
Can be viewed as a nerf too, absolutely, I simply implied some people would call it a logistics buff. And even then... the fact that it didn't affect proto hives... when logis are the ones most likely to carry proto equipment... le sigh.
I am hoping it was unintentional, but I am not holding my breath.
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Posted - 2015.03.14 11:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mad Syringe wrote:DJINN Jecture wrote:
BTW 98.9% of the links you spawn in on are scout uplinks.
Maybe in PC, in Pubs I doubt it!
Not in PC either.
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Posted - 2015.03.20 12:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
DJINN Jecture wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:I'm A-OK with seeing bandwidth and the conditions it creates disappear. If not removing it completely I don't see buffing bandwidth limits for one class and not everyone. More bandwidth for all, I say, or no bandwidth for anyone! Lol. Ok fair enough, has bandwidth limited active lag sessions for anyone? Or are we still seeing rampant Lag spams? Has it fixed the problem? I certainly still get lagged out from time to time.
Banwidth being introduced had no discernible effect on the game performance for me.
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2015.03.23 09:21:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Team,
Quick thoughts on BW plus the massive increase to carried equipment for all classes.
1) You directly increase the value of non-Logi equipment to the point it devalues logi play.
- Carrying 3x compact nano-hives or perhaps Allotek's are massively useful to the individual player
- scouts and assaults with up to 9x uplinks are quite possibly more of an asset than logi's with 9x uplinks.
2) Active logi play with scanners and reppers are the only tools holding value for logistics players due to suit bonuses. Needles, hives, and uplinks can be managed fairly effectively by scouts / assaults / commandos. This directly undercuts the Cal and Amarr logis which have traditionally been the lower tier support suits.
3) As noted by others...i've subjectively seen little to no actual in game improvement in performance. There may very well be some hard stats to the contrary that CCP has but my experience hasn't reflected this.
edit: My recommendation is to either drop BW or the additional carried for non-logi suits.
Ok, clarifying question? By "drop" here, do you mean reduce BW for non-logi suits, or remove BW from the game entirely?
Actually, nevermind. In either case, I can't really agree with you. Reducing BW further would basically make any deployables unusable for std and maybe adv tier (non-logi) suits, and I doubt CCP would remove the entire concept from the game at this point. I while I was never nuts about the whole thing, it does work somewhat to increase the preceived value of a logi suit on the field, however minimally.
The additional carried amount... Yeah, that should have been introduced as a logistic bonus, as has been suggested multiple times in the past. I absolutely love the fact that I don't run out of hives or links quite so fast anymore, makes the game feel more fluid and dynamic. But I also know there is no point in me carrying proto ammo hives for my squad, as an assault with k-2s or x-3s will not only be self-sufficient for the majority of a battle, but even able to supply the rest of the squad.
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Posted - 2015.03.23 11:42:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mad Syringe wrote:I think the last changes to deployable equipment have increased the spam again. Since nobody needs to save hives anymore, they get dropped all the time. And to compensate for the decreased amount of spawns on the links, you have to drop even more, to make sure they don't get depleted. All in all, the last iteration of the EQ theme has made things worse.
*sigh* Except, the carried amount changing doesn't affect the number of active per equipment. So, yes, you now have more spares, but you'll still only have the same number active simultaneously as before the change. How does that "increase spam"? Unless you are one of those people who use the word "spam" to describe any occasion of a logi deploying a piece of equipment? Yes, another hive can be now deployed more freely AS NEEDED, as opposed to having to hoard them like gold for the last possible moment, but each time a new one is dropped, a previously deployed one pops, so what exactly is the problem? The deployables exist to be used, so they should. A mobile on the move squad being able to reinforce a new location with a link when they move makes the game less campy and static, I still can not comprehend how some people think that is a bad thing...
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2015.03.23 13:40:00 -
[34] - Quote
Hmm... the number of spawns was perhaps too harshly reduced, for the lower tier links in particular. But on the other hand. I think a good, safe spawn location being accessible to the whole team for the duration of a battle should require maintenance, and not be handled by one person dropping a link or two within the first 30 seconds of the battle and then forgetting about it. And in general, links are a very powerful tool in this game, that can be used to shape the battlefield and the course of the battle. I am fine with some limitations placed on them. I personally prefer the active, more fluid approach to their use, than them being a drop and forget WP farm. Yes, being able to drop links at the beginning and then switch out to another fit increases the different ways one person can support the team, but surely even a logi shouldn't be able to do everything at once. The game's all about choices and adapting to a changing situation.
Now, maybe, there could be an higher spawn count uplink variant that is meant for those long lasting back up links that are "off the beaten path"... the would however have to have drawbacks to not overshadow the regular links. Long spawn time, only 1 active, higher bandwith... and so on. But once again, I'm afraid that those links would be the ones placed on some high tower at the beginning, never (needing) to be replaced, so half the team spawns up there to snipe and forge snipe, losing the match just as surely as if they stayed in the redline.
And, frankly, a team that only has one or two people ever drop links, with no team play to support the survival of those links, in Domination specifically, ought to lose. Harsh maybe, and no, I don't enjoy onesided redline battles... but I have also been the only linker on my team plenty enough times, and blueberries need to learn somehow
As to running proto as a logi automatically resulting in less deaths... Unfortunately for me, I have come to notice I lose far more suits running as the only support player in a squad, and having to run proto in that case, than I do running an advanced logi suit (with mostly proto equipment though) in a squad with at least one other logi, where we can "split the duties" so to say. That's just my personal experience though :)
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2015.03.27 12:14:00 -
[35] - Quote
Haerr wrote:Mad Syringe wrote:Please do not make the min logi a remote expert...
I would however like combined shield armor repper bonuses if a shield transporter is ever introduced. Hah, I can see it before me now. MinLogi Skill: +XX% Blast Radius for Explosives and Explosive weapons and Grenades +XX% Ammo carried for Explosives and Explosive weapons and Grenades +XX% Deployed Explosives
Oh, oh yes.
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Posted - 2015.03.29 08:34:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Orion Sanjeet wrote:Lol, 83 pages and not a blue tag to be found, ladies and gentlemen, I declare this thread a success. As I've stated numinous times before, thread was not made to attract blue tags. I just talk to them directly while I manage the this thread myself. There have been more delays in the fix than I would like to be sure but sometimes that's just how development cycles go. Since I've had conversations with CCP on this subject as recently as yesterday I'm not overly concerned with them posting here and no one else should be either  Cheers, Cross
Totally appreciate all that... but on the other hand, you could ask Rattati to poke his had in to just say hi, or, post a cat picture, whatever.... just so people can stop talking about the lack of a blue tag 
We all know how these forums work, a thread with no blue tag isn't real!
P.S. Love you Cross
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