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CPM input request: Logistics & Support.

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ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 3222	Posted - 2014.08.22 22:31:00 - [271] - Quote Honestly... I think we need to go back to the discussion started by Crazy Cat Lady a while back. If I had time I would make a much larger post on this but I'm just too busy with the semester starting back up now. Here is an idea for the community to ponder. What if... (and I know some peeps are gonna be plenty unhappy with this im sure) we go with a more EVE-inspired solution to this problem. Looking specifically at Logistics Cruisers in EVE, their entire bonus set revolves around remote repairs, remote capacitor transfer, and remote tracking links (something I don't think we really have an analogue for)... They are the medics of EVE. Why not translate that to health and ammo in Dust? i.e. Repair Tool Repair Rate and Nanohive supply rate and repair amount. Make it more about slot versatility and less about these drastically varied racial bonuses. Giving the logi suits something more like Logistics Bonus: -5% fitting requirements on equipment +10% Range on Repair Tools +10% Nanite Capacity on Nanohives Now the next part gets tricky... In EVE, they have remote shield boosters... we don't have that in Dust. If it would be possible to add that to Dust... then we could have some more interesting fits where Caldari and Minmatar get a bonus to shield reps and Amarr and Gallente get a bonus to Armor reps. If that is just flat out impossible, then we could consider something else... Without shield transporters we would need to fall back to rep rate and nano supply rate. My suggestion would then be... Gal/Am - 5% Repair Rate and 2.5% Nano Supply/Triage Rate Cal/Min - 2.5% Repair Rate and 5% Nano Supply/Triage Rate Now... you might ask what about the scanner and drop uplinks? Those have completely vanished off the list? I think they should, they really aren't THAT viable for logi suits as we've seen. Active Scanners compete with scouts for ewar and do it poorly and uplinks... well they would just be better suited for a suit that is faster than a min sentinel... So... I propose we wrap those bonuses into a new suit. Since we won't ever get a pilot suit... how about we start discussing a second light suit? I would call it the Recon Dropsuit. With a specialty on active scanning and drop uplink placement. I won't discuss this in depth but I would suggest it follows a similar type of bonus... getting a reduction on equipment and a global bonus say... Recon Bonus -5% fitting reqs on equip +% Scan Angle +2 Spawn Count per level + a flavor bonus by splitting the scan range, scan precision, recharge time (perhaps?) and uplink spawn delay up amongst the different races. Specifically, I think this could better handle the 'combat logi' role i've been fighting for when we first discussed Hotfix Charlie. A light suit with L/S E/E/E and a similar(ish) module layout to the scout. It would have similar passive ewar to an assault suit and no specific bonus to ewar. Just active scanning and drop uplinks. They are speedy enough to get around and place drop uplinks in strategic positions, better than an Amarr Logi can. By moving the combat logi role to this frame, you can have a traditional active scan and drop uplink kind of build or build it as a pseudo-logi... equipping a rep tool, injector, nanohive setup but losing out specifically on any bonuses to those when compare to a more dedicated setup, the logistics suit. Lastly, with the release of a suit to carry out the combat logi role on its own, we can normalize the racial logi suits to 1 L 0 S and 4 E like they should be if we want to maintain racial consistency. I'm sure a lot of people are not going to like this suggestion but I think its worth putting out there... at least to spark a discussion that is more than just "how many slots should a logi get so they are balanced." imo, the biggest problem with Logi suits atm is that some bonuses are clearly far more valuable than others, this actually stifles variety rather than increasing it. Logi suit bonuses are spread too thin atm, and we need to more clearly define what we think the Logi should actually be, and 'equipment ***** is not enough definition' imho. I think with these proposed changes being this substantial (plus all of the other changes in the previous hotifxes) it would be time for a complete, or at least another dropsuit command, SP reallocation. B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2949	Posted - 2014.08.22 22:38:00 - [272] - Quote Gonna have to really disagree with you on the Logis there ZDub, sorry. You've got Gal and Amarr with identical bonuses, and Minmatar and Caldari with identical bonuses, and even then they're not that different from one another. I certainly appreciate the attempt to kinda mirror Logis from EVE but as you pointed out, we're missing a lot of the additional support tools that you typically see on an EVE Logi ship, and I think trying to force that kind of support without the right tools leads to a cramped and bland design. The suits just end up being too similar and you really lose any sense of racial differences which I just can't support.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 3222	Posted - 2014.08.22 23:18:00 - [273] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Gonna have to really disagree with you on the Logis there ZDub, sorry. You've got Gal and Amarr with identical bonuses, and Minmatar and Caldari with identical bonuses, and even then they're not that different from one another. I certainly appreciate the attempt to kinda mirror Logis from EVE but as you pointed out, we're missing a lot of the additional support tools that you typically see on an EVE Logi ship, and I think trying to force that kind of support without the right tools leads to a cramped and bland design. The suits just end up being too similar and you really lose any sense of racial differences which I just can't support. Racial difference would come from... well racial differences. Slot layout, tanking styles, etc. Think about people who want to play along racial lines as well. Someone who wants to play a non-minmatar medic style suit can't right now. The bonuses are too spread out. Atm if you want to be more of a medic type logi, you are forced to play minmatar but that is not necessarily the suit that everyone wants to play. Could the bonuses themselves maybe use some iteration? Sure... like I said, I just want to throw it out there so people can think about it as a viable option. I'll admit, the lack of a shield transporter makes it a bit less defined. Logistics sutis in this game just have to be treated differently from the other classes. For most everything else, the objective of the game is to shoot the other person in the face. That's what assault suits do, thats what commandos do, heavies, etc. But equipment is fundamentally different from piece to piece. The scanner doesn't fulfill the same role that a nanohive does, or a rep tool. Its gonna be a little narrow-minded to say this but... atm if you want to play a true support logi... I don't see how you can play that class to its fullest potential without being a min logi. Now most people are suggesting giving a 'global' style of bonus to each logi suit, but thats no different than what i'm suggesting really. You're normalizing the equipment bonus so that racial and tanking preferences are more relavent. I just don't see that uplinks necessarily belong on the logi frame, a comment made by IWS on a Biomassed podcast a while back... which I definitely agree with. Additionally, active scanners compete with scout ewar... and for a long time scout ewar was far more powerful than a Gal Logi with a scanner. I suspect since 1.8 the usage of the Gal Logi is minimal, and its probably only by people who want to play Gallente Medic albeit less effective than they could if they shrugged off racial preference and skilled in Min Logi. Cal Logi is just lol... Shields are less preferred as a tanking style and nanohive bonus just doesn't really matter. Amarr Logi is played primarly for the sidearm, even though the uplink bonus is bugged and is almost never actually active, I still suspect it would only be played by 'slayer-logis' with an added bonus of uplink reduction. They are slow though, and i'll admti most of the time I just drop my uplink near the action and start slaying... I don't really think about strategic uplink placement, i'm far too slow for the suit to be very effective at it. I think we need to abandon the idea of racial equipment for logis like the bonuses are for the assault and commando. A global rep bonus must happen to the logi class if its ever going to have a defined role. Until we can actually define what the role of a logistics suit really is, it'll never really be 'balanced' in the same way tanks will never be 'balanced'... they just don't have a defined role. My suggestion is to define the logi as a medic, just like it (mostly) is in EVE. While moving some of the non-medic type stuff elsewhere. But hey... just my thoughts on the matter. B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2950	Posted - 2014.08.22 23:27:00 - [274] - Quote Well for one I'm generally against the idea that Logis should get a bonus to ALL equipment. I'd like to see them get some additional bonuses, just not to everything because I dislike over homogenizing them like that. As for your comment about people wanting to be "medics" but not run Minmatar...I think we both agree that the Repair Tools is pretty much the quintessential equipment for any Logi, and I think we would be hard pressed to find someone who didn't have it on most of their fits, regardless of race. That's why I mentioned before we move the repair tool to be a universal Logi bonus and then give the Minmatar something else. I think this would really help a lot of Logis feel more comfortable about the suit they picked and help them fulfill the classic Logi role, which is repairing. Hell if you want to hit it from the lore aspect, read the description of the Repair Tool. We all kinda assumed it was a Minmatar thing, but its actually got a little bit of all 4 races in it. As for Uplinks of Logis...you're probably right. But again we really lack enough equipment that we can afford to be moving Uplinks and Scanners to other suits and further slicing the Logi apart. If anything I wish we had MORE kinds of equipment so each race could have its own unique flavor and share less equipment...but I'm also a really strong proponent of racial diversity and making them feel as distinctively different as possible.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 3222	Posted - 2014.08.22 23:43:00 - [275] - Quote Since 1.8, after speccing into Amarr Logi... i've used the repair tool a couple times for kicks but I almost never use it. My comments come from the original where all of that was discussed, like you say. I do have a few other comments then: 1. Is the WP/s generation potential of the Logi too high relative to other classes atm? 2. would moving the rep tool to a global bonus and then giving min a different secondary bonus not leave us in a similar position though? Where you simply use X racial logi suit for X racial logi equipment? It is probably mostly psychological but... I don't think I would ever use an active scanner unless I had a gallente logi... I'm sure that level of 'pidgeon-holing' is healthy in the long term. 3. is it 'okay' (I use this term loosely) that players who want an L/S 3E min logi cannot and players who want a L + 4E amarr logi cannot run that? Should Logis not get racial parity in their line-up like every other class has? If you change caldari and amarr to 4E layout, is it worth the blowback you get from the players who want their current playstyle? 4. Would moving some of the equipment bonuses to another class possibly justify a slight bump in move speed for the logi suit? Making it easier to keep up while repping? Would that be worth it to players who want to play true support type logi? 5. For those 'true support' types of logi players... does it make sense that everyone gets the rep tool but only caldari gets the nanohive? An arguably equally important support piece of equipment? If we had racial scanners, or racial nanohives, or racial rep tools, I would argue more tailored bonuses would make sense... but since that is unlikely to happen (nor does it need to) I would say we need to stop thinking along the racial bonus lines that Assaults/Commandos currently have. In the end, a gun kills other players... so a racial bonus is flavor. But a piece of equipment performs a specific function... racial equipment bonuses extend to more than just flavor, they are direct impact functionality to any specific suit and play style. That is why I suggest moving away from racial equipment bonuses. B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
Cass Caul 832	Posted - 2014.08.23 01:56:00 - [276] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: deflecting from the point Nice deflection. Why not try actually showing what you run. http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/1174 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/5442 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/7014 These suits are currently sitting in my inventory, albeit on a different character each. This is the style I use. My comparison of Logistics and Commandos is that of two different suits that typically use one of the 4 racial rifles neither of which are Assault Suits. I don't see any real need to increase the HP. A medium Frame can't really use profile dampeners. Precision mods on the suit are less effective than a Scout or a Gallente Logistics with PRO scanner. I don't have difficulty running or keeping up with my squad because we rarely sprint in excess of 80m so the difference in speed and stamina aren't really all that noticeable or have me wanting to use KinCats/CardRegs. Codebreakers? Maybe. Damage mods I could use in the highs on my Amarr and Gallente, my Amarr Logi doesn't have shield extension past 1 but does have handheld weapon upgrades V, so, that's what I do. What else am I missing? This is why I asked for the builds other people use, preferably on protofits so I can compare it to what I already have. I blame her for nova knife kills on tanks
Robocop Junior Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 769	Posted - 2014.08.23 02:29:00 - [277] - Quote Sidearm. If strength were all, tiger would not fear scorpion.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3903	Posted - 2014.08.23 02:33:00 - [278] - Quote I may be Amarr, but I rep tank a lot, it's an extension of what I do with my LR suits where I pop in and out behind cover. Not quite as smart for my Logi suit, but the way I see it, if someone with a shotty, six kin CR, or burst HMG gets the drop on me, it doesn't matter if I have 700 or 800 armor, I'm going down. Otherwise, if I survive, I'm back in it quicker. An exception is the suits I build exclusively for chubby chasing, those are brick tanked pretty hard with only one complex repper. Anyway, here they are. My RL situation and PC timers do not mix, so I rarely run proto, and this is my go-to logi fitting: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/7020 When I do run proto, which is usually in FW, it looks more like this: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/7021 (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 789	Posted - 2014.08.23 02:53:00 - [279] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Why can't Logi's be lower HP self repping suits of efficiency? Because all of the reps in the world won't save you from being alpha'ed. Don't get me wrong I like the idea of Medium suits being kickass as health regen, been harping on that for a while, but I also think with the current balance of damage and the HP of other suits, the Logis will fall into obscurity due to lack of survivability in comparison to everything else. Compromise then, perhaps a mix of rep bonuses and a boost to HP? This would definitely be a step in the right direction. I'm still pissed the Min Logi lost 30HP when Uprising dropped. Logis should be fantastic at everything except tanking and ganking. Should you be able to get ganked by a Logi if they get the drop on you? Absolutely, but you get the point. Our suits should be able to Logi themselves when we're busy Logi'ing everyone else. It's the basic stats of the Logi suit that are the issue for me. We barely rep faster than a Commando, and are barely FASTER than a Commando. The poster above talking about their brick tanked and now obsolete slayer logi fits is a prime example of the direction we do NOT need to head back down. eHP should not be the answer just because every other suit in the game has been buffed over the past year. On a side note, bummed you didn't get elected. I voted for ya, fwiw. Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 789	Posted - 2014.08.23 03:01:00 - [280] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Why can't Logi's be lower HP self repping suits of efficiency? I understand that, "Tuesdays!!! Armor reps are Gallente!!!" Well, do you think no technology has ever been stolen and used by gasp a competitor, even if it's less efficient? Ask the Germans where their rocket program went after WWII. Give us a basic bonus to ALL equipment, after all, it's what we DO. Anything but a blanket, "here's some more HP" solution... Rather, any race can rep, but they Gallente specialize in it. Just like any race can shield tank, but the Caldari do it better. Exactly. Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2953	Posted - 2014.08.23 04:18:00 - [281] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: This would definitely be a step in the right direction. I'm still pissed the Min Logi lost 30HP when Uprising dropped. Logis should be fantastic at everything except tanking and ganking. Should you be able to get ganked by a Logi if they get the drop on you? Absolutely, but you get the point. Our suits should be able to Logi themselves when we're busy Logi'ing everyone else. It's the basic stats of the Logi suit that are the issue for me. We barely rep faster than a Commando, and are barely FASTER than a Commando. The poster above talking about their brick tanked and now obsolete slayer logi fits is a prime example of the direction we do NOT need to head back down. eHP should not be the answer just because every other suit in the game has been buffed over the past year. On a side note, bummed you didn't get elected. I voted for ya, fwiw. Aww thanks man, I appreciate the support. There's always next time though! I don't think the Logi needs to be fantastic at tanking but I'm concerned that it's not even adequate. I mean if you're overly easy to kill as a logi, then you're not effective as support. They should be no means be superior to Assaults, as Logis should not engaged in direct combat, but I'm wondering if the gap in survivability will be too high between the two, especially since the Assaults actually feel about right, but the Logis have the added fitting burden of equipment, despite similar slots and resources. It means they typically need to sacrifice additional defenses on top of inferior base attributes which just exacerbates the problem. I think I'd be fine with a better regen approach, but I still think a small HP buff is still in order, and an increased fitting reduction on the Logi bonus to help offset the much higher cost of having 4 equipment instead of one.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1017	Posted - 2014.08.23 05:39:00 - [282] - Quote I have an idea: 1. Boost the 5%/level bonus for equipment to 12.5% 2. Increase the base HP of logi suits 3. Armour logistics suits get +2HP/second reps (gal gets 4 total) 4. Cut the suit PG to discourage further brick tanking - they can still fit e-war or whatever, just no complex plates etc. Dust/Eve transfers
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 68	Posted - 2014.08.23 07:37:00 - [283] - Quote The lack of a infantry portable Remote Shield Booster makes running Logi somewhat pointless for supporting some suits (and even if it did exist, the lack of buffer within shields vs the amount of damage that can be thrown down on them makes them un-viable from a brick-tanking perspective...would love to see a DUST version of the infamous Drake). Space-side there are two different kind of Logistics Ships (disregarding Capital Ships, and removing the difference between Armor and Shields). The Amarr Guardian and the Caldari Basalisk make up one type, while the Minmatar Scimitar and Gallente Oneiros make up the other. The Guardian and Basalisk hulls get bonuses to both racial primary buffer repair. and Capacitor (which is necessary to run almost all active modules). The Scimitar and Oneiros get bonus to both racial primary buffer repair and remote tracking computers (which improve damage application for Turret Class weapons). Now, Space-Side logistics and remote reps are extremely powerful...and I'm not saying that ground side logistics need to be that powerful (as when supporting a Sentinal suit with a bonus against your weapon of choice, they can make the Sentinal seem almost invincible), but a bonus for all suits to repairers would be nice. I'm not exactly sure how the rep mechanics work ground side...but I would suggest an decrease the Repair Cycle Duration on the Gallente and Minmatar Frames along with increased range to the Repair Cycles, while an equal percentage increase to the Repair Amount on the Amarr and Caldari Frames along with an Increase to the efficacy of Nanite Injectors. The Caldari and Amarr suits could both have Sidearms (at the cost of 1 reduced equipment). This gives the flavor of Gallente and Minmatar of being Support Logi, while the Amarr and Caldari are Frontline Logi Each of the Racial suits could then get an increase to their Racial Equipment (Similar to how it is now): Amarr: Bonus to Spawn beacon Spawn amount and spawn time -- I like this bonus as it allows my squad (and others) to quickly form up behind an enemy captured point...at least when it's working it does...anyone know exactly why it derps out sometimes? An addition to this bonus could also be an increase in the number of active beacons allowed (as a role bonus, not as a per level) Caldari: Bonus to Nano-Hives...but change it to include Nano-Hives Carried (as a role bonus, not a per level) -- The current state of this bonus is fairly underwhelming, as the nanohives can be depleted quickly by grenade spamming allies, but I love the concept, and am always thankful for someone hauling around ammo for my squadmates' thirst bullet hoses. Minmatar: Bonus to Remote Explosives (Proxy Mines Specifically) -- Since, in the above proposal, the Minmatar bonus would be effectively given to all the frames (even in part), a new bonus focusing on a Minmatar racial equipment is needed. While Remote Explosives (and Proxy Mines) are by no means underused, Proxy mines in particular are only effective when used en-masse to block a specific point on the road, and a buff to them that either made them more effective against vehicles, or even detonate against infantry (based on suit scan profile) would be interesting. My idea to make them have an offensive equipment bonus is based on their racial EWARs space-side: Target Painters, with a few hulls getting a bonus to Stasis Webifiers Gallente: Keep the bonus to Active Scanners -- This bonus at first seems underwhelming (Like the Caldari Nano-Hives) but the power to scan down profile dampened scout suits, and see enemy positions from afar is extremely useful (not to mention, the intel assistance points are quite a nice bonus). This is just my .02 ISK worth...as many other ideas have been suggested regarding the logistics suit durability and equipment usage, my suggestion is more regarding making all the logistics frames viable and in-tune with what I know of the racial flavors from my (albeit Limited) space-side experience. As for equipment changes, a proximity based self-destruct on Spawn Beacons would be a godsend, especially in those ambush matches Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
hfderrtgvcd Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 325	Posted - 2014.08.23 08:32:00 - [284] - Quote not sure if this has already been mentioned but could you please request ccp to return the golden glow around your screen when you are being repaired.
RKKR The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1010	Posted - 2014.08.23 08:43:00 - [285] - Quote The problem with this eHP-buff or eWar/stamina-buff discussion for logi-suits is that there are different playstyles. A logi that focusses on repping heavies wants (needs?) that eHP. A logi who focusses on the perimeter wants that eWar/stamina. Cass Caul wrote: To the logis that don't brink tank, could you use www.protofits.com to show how you set up your Logi suits? A fit I'm having fun and experimenting with: ADV callogi: 2 Shield EXT 1 Precision enhancer 2 range amps Equipment: uplink, triage hive, ammo hive (all ADV) I try to stay far away from the enemy and in cover, using the range amps to position myself in a good spot. Picking of my targets one by one if feasible. Problem: this alone doesn't work if the game 'smartspawn you in a blob right in front of the enemy' I usually run off away from my team and try to flank an enemy while putting an uplink down to repeat. Problem: Tried running long distances with a logi suit? They are supposed to be kings of equipment yet a scout and assault suit are a better idea for running and dropping down that link to suprise the enemy. If some blueberry is smart enough to spawn on my uplink instead of the spawnfarm blob and not foolishly rush the enemy, I can support him with my hives. Problem: those hives are used up in an eyeblink, I'm now officially a handicapped scout. And that's the biggest problem, the above ones could be fixed by running with a squad, so someone can do the scanning so I could use speedmods,... (But how do we promote that kind of teamwork? More WP for actions and how to implement those?) but I will always be a handicapped version of an assault/scout with limited equipment. Problem: I'm too stuborn to want keep using logi suits , why shouldn't I use a high eHP logi with a reptool? Atleast that way you could be usefull the entire time.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 217	Posted - 2014.08.23 09:59:00 - [286] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: To the logis that don't brink tank, could you use www.protofits.com to show how you set up your Logi suits? Minmatar logi M/1 2 x Complex Shield Extender 1 x Enhanced Shield Extender 1 x Enhanced KinCat 1 x Enhanced Ferroscale 1 x Enhanced Armour Repairer Basic Combat Rifle Basic Flux 6 Kin Triage Tool Wyrkomi Nanite Injector Drop Uplink/X-3 Nanohive 313 shield 242 armour 6.25 HP/S reps 5 m/s movement speed 7.97 m/s sprint speed I'm very sure I could tank it out more but I try and balance between the best equipment I can fit and half decent mobility. At the moment I have used my proto scout more than my logi ( although I haven't had much time to play recently ) I can drop links in secure/safeish locations, derp redberry links and stragglers, hack, support and hold a point for a while. The scout gives me better options. Ok I have less HP but I have e war and 2 slots for equipment versatility. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 431	Posted - 2014.08.23 18:30:00 - [287] - Quote I almost forgot one of the most important things that needs addressing: Advanced Gallente and Caldari logis only have 5 module slots. That's now less than their assault counterpart. So they have less slots, much less HP, they're slower, have less stamina, and have no sidearm. 2 more equipment and equipment bonus is not enough to make up the difference. These logis need an extra slot--Gallente low, Caldari high of course--on top of increased EHP.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2954	Posted - 2014.08.23 18:34:00 - [288] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: deflecting from the point Nice deflection. Why not try actually showing what you run. . Oh, sorry, I forgot to bite. I was worried it might leave a bitter taste in my mouth. http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/7063
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2790	Posted - 2014.08.23 18:39:00 - [289] - Quote Who can tell me the specifics of how protofits calculates eHP? I see that term miss-defined or loosely defined quite a lot and it can be accurately used to mean/contain many things, what is the site using in this case? See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2954	Posted - 2014.08.23 18:48:00 - [290] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Who can tell me the specifics of how protofits calculates eHP? I see that term miss-defined or loosely defined quite a lot and it can be accurately used to mean/contain many things, what is the site using in this case? It doesn't take into account and sort of resistances or include the effective benefit of regen. It just takes all the + and - from skills, modules, and effects and calculates the final HP for shields and armor, and then adds them together. Its more like Total HP than anything else. Also note that on weapon damage calcs, it assumes damage against the weapon's preferred defense, that is that it will add +15% for proficiency, assuming that you're attacking shields (for EM and Thermal) or armor (for Kinetic, Rail, and Explosive).

P14GU3 Merc-0107 857	Posted - 2014.08.23 23:37:00 - [291] - Quote Been around since closed beta. Played mostly logi support since open beta. I have dabbled in every other class at some point. My main fits are adv amarr and gallente logi with all proto equipment (trying to keep costs down.) I know I am repeating a lot of what has been said, but Cross wants as close to a full representation as possible. The issues with logi suits themselves. 1. Too slow. Base speed and stamina need increased. 2. Not enough survivability. Need more regen NOT base HP. 3. Too limited in scope to be a true support role. All logis need medic bonuses ie. rep tools and needles. This is their main role. 4. Too noticeable on the field. All logis are bright yellow. Everyone knows to shoot the logi first. The bright yellow suit ensures that logis die first. This is partly why scouts are better for logi work now. Reason number 3 doesn't help that fact much either. Equipment issues Scanners. These are practically pointless to run. I have a full proto gal logi with proto scanners. When used, i rarely get points, or even light anyone up because everyone is running unscannable damped scouts. They just simply aren't strong enough, and even when they are, they have a long cooldown with a very short light up time. Uplinks. These are probably the most useful peice of equipment. I collect massive amounts of warpoints with very little effort on my amarr logi. Longer spawn in times with more bonuses for logis may help a bit with spam and also needle use. Needles. Another useful peice of equipment (some will disagree) i run usually proto but will sometimes drop to advanced for fitting or isk cost. The issue with these are they are extremely buggy. Phantom revives, later needle pricks picking people up instead of the intial prick, no revive option, ect. Hives. The repair hives are extremely effective, maybe too effective. The normal ones seem to be fine as is. Rep tools. The most important tool for any logi IMO. Most logis will use this more than any other piece of eq. Too short of range, too little repaired to both infantry and vehicles. Errors are common when trying to lock in a large group. RE. I dont know too many logis who use these as a stable part of their support. This seems to be more of a scout role as they have the ewar to see and not be seen, which is important with the use of REs. Placement times are still too fast and the throwing distance is still too far. Other than that they seem to be fine. I only play dust514ums now. It was always more fun than the actual game anyways.
Kaze Eyrou Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 505	Posted - 2014.08.24 18:49:00 - [292] - Quote Logi mk.0 (also have the ak.0 but I don't use it unless uplink spam). Basic Shield Energizer Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Complex Armor Repair Basic Armor Plate Enhanced Armor Plate Enhanced Armor Plate Boundless Combat Rifle (used to use Six Kin but I found that there's more total damage potential. Still partial to that Six Kin ACR) C-7 Flux Grenade Wyrkomi Nanite Injector Six Kin Triage Repair Tool Ishukone Gauged Nanohive Creodron Flux Active Scanner Alright here we go.... MOBILITY I believe logis need more mobility but I don't think that should come from movement speed or sprint speed. I believe a slight stamina increase with a slight increase to stamina recovery should do it. This way, the Assault class still maintains the ability to run faster than the Logi, but the Logi will be able to keep up over the long haul. HEALTH I don't believe the Logi's need a health increase (memories of the Slayer Logi era comes back) however, I'm not sure about the stats that the Logis had before. If that was reverted, then Logis would get a "buff" of sorts to health, but I think it would be more of a "reverse-nerf"? I guess I'm still mixed on this. NEEDLES I carry a needle on all my "LogiBro" suits. Fixing the bug of "false positives" would be nice. I would like to see the "downed" icon of squadmates to green. Also, I think the Kaalakiota Needle would be much more desirable if it picked you up for 100% armor AND shields. But that may be OP and it doesn't quite fit the lore either (nanites giving shields? They only do hull and armor). SCANNERS I'm going to disagree with P14GU3 because for me, active scanners are one of the most efficient tools for spotting the enemy. For instance I scan in the direction of a friendly CRU to see if the enemy is flanking. I get back "Some Margin of Error". I report to my team and start heading that way, looking for shimmer and for the CRU to be hacked. Sure I don't get a chevron over their head, but even if they are cloaked and dampened, I know they are there somewhere. UPLINKS Extremely powerful. Part of me wants to nerf the hell out of these and make it where they are only active if you carry them. And when you die or switch suits they pop. Yeah. I don't think everyone will stop me on this point. Also I like uplink spamming and uplink hunting too. I will say it was a good decision to change the uplink times. NANOHIVES Good as they are. I miss their 72 clusters they used to have though. I do think they need to not resupply grenades; maybe have a seperate nanohive to do that? But then again I use Flux nades to take out REs and equipment and like when I can restock with nanohives. Sigh. Most of the stuff I say I feel like I'm nerfing. REPAIR TOOLS I think they are fine as they are. Sure there's issues with locking but that's game functionality related, not actually the rep tool itself. REMOTE EXPLOSIVES I don't care about scouts throwing them or even that they are sticky... but could we get an arming timer for them like we used to have? PROXIMITY EXPLOSIVES Anyone remember the Onikuma BPO and the Murder Taxi era? Guess what I skilled into to counter that. My biggest complaint is that we are unable to throw down the maxmium amount of Proxies. We only carry 3 Std, 3, Adv, and 4 Pro, when we can have 4 Std, 5 Adv, and 6 Pro active. On top of that, they only do 750 damage and while LAVs are lit up like fireworks, tanks drive over them with no problem (admittedly, only some of the time). On top of that when laying out Proxies, we are extremely vulnerable, and once they are spotted, can easily be blown up by the enemy. Oh and in Friendly Fire environments, make it so the owner of the damage is either null or the proximity mine itself if that's possible. I want to help my team by using proxies but I can't do that if I'm going to get kicked from Faction Warfare because half brain-dead blueberry decides to shoot my proxies. Or blow them up somehow. Whatever the f*** he did. So yeah, to sum up: would like Proxies carried to match active. Code the system where it checks incoming damage to prevent incorrect determination of so called "friendly fire" with Proxies. Closed Beta Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1008	Posted - 2014.08.25 01:23:00 - [293] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Equipment doesn't need more HP Proto equipment just needs a lower profile. Let's reward PLACEMENT rather than spamming in open areas. By hiding your uplink well, it won't show up on scans or passives as long as you're using the best of the best...that's what I want. So,something the size of a mercs PALM. Doing 600 damage is ok... But something the size of your mercs WHOLE UPPER TORSO,being able to take that kind of damage isn't? Even taking into consideration nanos are supposed to be THE MOST ADVANCED piece of equipment on the battlefield? And people wonder why i'm so arguemenative. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1008	Posted - 2014.08.25 02:19:00 - [294] - Quote http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/7113 As for a lolweapon... I focus on support not kills,so i swap as i get bored. I've recently been running the flaylock. I can make due with low eHP,but it's the speed and regen that gets me. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 280	Posted - 2014.08.25 04:03:00 - [295] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: oh, first, MinLogi since open beta, primarily PC last couple months tho the last couple weeks have been quiet-ish. Okay, a couple things to help the logistics class as a whole- 1. The infamous Sprint Glitch has to get fixed... 2. Scouts need to lose that second equipment slot... 3. Logistics class should be a level 5 Dropsuit Command unlock... 4-? We need movement buffs, walking and rotation speed. Something HP/regen side... But, I want to actually play in Charlie before requesting too much after 1-3. Yup, this is where I'm at, from what I've seen of Charlie. I think #4 really is the key, after the previous 3 being addressed, to closing the balance between the frames. Simple movement buffs, to walking and rotation speeds with regen buffs on the limited side for straight hp (maybe 50-70 pts spread shield/armor based on race lore) but very dynamic on the regen delay side, prompting limited tanking with short delay accomodating cover to cover movement and limited (though substantially better than now) sustainability through the sort of massive barrages supported squads attract. Suits that don't currently enjoy inherent reps maybe still get a bonus (perhaps even the fastest of the bonuses) to delay but obviously need to equip the appropriate module to use it. Additionally, buffs could be tangible through -lowering our inherent profile base below assault base, sp investments into prec/damp will make detection/stealth possible between them -redefining the individual equipment values, carried/deployed etc. as others have suggested -redefining the individual equipment/racial bonuses as others have suggested -redefining the logis hitbox as others have suggested. -recoloring the frame, again, as others have suggested (I like plaid) -fitting/pricing of individual equipment redefining, as others have suggested Any/all of these or adjustments along these lines would be good I think. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 371	Posted - 2014.08.25 04:09:00 - [296] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: oh, first, MinLogi since open beta, primarily PC last couple months tho the last couple weeks have been quiet-ish. Okay, a couple things too help the logistics class as a whole- 1. The infamous Sprint Glitch has to get fixed... 2. Scouts need to lose that second equipment slot... 3. Logistics class should be a level 5 Dropsuit Command unlock... 4-? We need movement buffs, walking and rotation speed. Something HP/regen side... But, I want to actually play in Charlie before requesting too much after 1-3. Yup, this is where I'm at, from what I've seen of Charlie. I think #4 really is the key, after the previous 3 being addressed, to closing the balance between the frames. Simple movement buffs, to walking and rotation speeds with regen buffs on the limited side for straight hp (maybe 50-70 pts spread shield/armor based on race lore) but very dynamic on the regen delay side, prompting limited tanking with short delay accomodating cover to cover movement and limited (though substantially better than now) sustainability through the sort of massive barrages supported squads attract. Suits that don't currently enjoy inherent reps maybe still get a bonus (perhaps even the fastest of the bonuses) to delay but obviously need to equip the appropriate module to use it. Additionally, buffs could be tangible through -lowering our inherent profile base below assault base, sp investments into prec/damp will make detection/stealth possible between them -redefining the individual equipment values, carried/deployed etc. as others have suggested -redefining the individual equipment/racial bonuses as others have suggested -redefining the logis hitbox as others have suggested. -recoloring the frame, again, as others have suggested (I like plaid) -fitting/pricing of individual equipment redefining, as others have suggested Any/all of these or adjustments along these lines would be good I think. I like all points made, except recolouring the frame to plaid... I'd prefer paisley. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 166	Posted - 2014.08.25 14:45:00 - [297] - Quote Yup, because I don't like scouts acting like logis, so please, turn my logi into a scout. Brilliant. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 218	Posted - 2014.08.25 15:09:00 - [298] - Quote Ok so there have been a few ideas thrown about on how to make logi's better from More HP to resistances. So I had an idea that may work but I'm not sure whether it's possible to do within the Hotfix only phase we are running. Anyway, to aid survivability how about when a logi is acitively repping a target he gets a "feedback" armour rep. Nothing stupidly OP, maybe 1 or 2 HP/s max AND only when the rep tool is active on a target. It's not enough to save a logi from alpha damage or prolonged/sustained fire but a little extra to encourage a logi to use the rep tool. Of course it may be a crap idea but trying to think of something other than HP buff etc Also I'm not sure if this has been suggested before and sorry if I have stolen someone else's idea Idea is now open to feedback, pull it to bits, discuss or whatever. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 166	Posted - 2014.08.25 16:53:00 - [299] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Ok so there have been a few ideas thrown about on how to make logi's better from More HP to resistances. So I had an idea that may work but I'm not sure whether it's possible to do within the Hotfix only phase we are running. Anyway, to aid survivability how about when a logi is acitively repping a target he gets a "feedback" armour rep. Nothing stupidly OP, maybe 1 or 2 HP/s max AND only when the rep tool is active on a target. It's not enough to save a logi from alpha damage or prolonged/sustained fire but a little extra to encourage a logi to use the rep tool. Of course it may be a crap idea but trying to think of something other than HP buff etc Also I'm not sure if this has been suggested before and sorry if I have stolen someone else's idea Idea is now open to feedback, pull it to bits, discuss or whatever. I like this to an extent, but as I said before, it will kill diversity of logi suits so only armor tanked suits would see any benefit. So keep the idea of recieving a bonus while actively repping, just make the bonus a small damage resistance to all forms of damage for shields and armor. However I think either of our versions would be difficult with only server side. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1010	Posted - 2014.08.25 17:31:00 - [300] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Yup, because I don't like scouts acting like logis, so please, turn my logi into a scout. Brilliant! FTFY. But seriously,what else is there? TBH i believe assaults got the wrong kind of buff (eHP). All the assault suit descriptions say they should have damage resistance. If assaults get eHP,all that's left is speed and regen. If we straight up copy assaults nothing will have improved. By making logistics more scout-like focusing on evasion and stealth it leaves open combat for the combat oriented suits,while logistics can (like scouts) work in the shadows. So,durable suits such as heavies and assaults can't hide. But frail suits like logistics and scouts can and escape.(non brick scouts that is) From personal experience i can say i've survived 10x longer when i ran to regroup as when i tried to fight. Unfortunately being slower with less eHP,and being easy to hit doesn't help with those times. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.



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