Main support suits: Logistics gk.0 and Logistics ck.0
HP shouldn't be a concern, as although survivability is important, their capacity for out-tanking Assault was a primary cause for Slayer-Logi being a thing.

Nanite Injector: It's a ******* piece of ****. It's been 2 years. The guys on the CPM0 were telling CCP even before it was released how aboslute game-breaking terrible it would be if you can just pick up anyone. ATM terribads and troll are the only ones that carry them. More than any thing else there needs to be a way to avoid some prick with a dirty needle.
Secondly, the nanite injector is just terrible in that it only provides armor HP. It needs to provide Shield HP as well.

Active Scanner:
Needs to be re-balanced to detect medium frames. Best solution to that is to take away Gallente Logistics Scan Precision bonus and replace it with increased scan angle.
The recharge/duration needs to be closer. Not so you can constantly spam it.
So long as Gal-Logi has a bonus to precision Medium Frames cannot participate in stealth. 1.4-1.7 had many Assaults or Logistics running 2 dampeners. It was a much healthier game in that tacnet exchange.

Removal of squad-shared passive scanning will also significantly improve the desireablity of Active Scanner

Skill Bonus. It's been 9 months of me saying this: They need to be comprehensive.
The Logistics suits need to be the best at using all equipment. Not just a single one.
Fire the idiot, even if it was LogiBro, that thought it was a good idea or even acceptable to have these split up.
It's not even complicated.

- Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive maximum nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and 5% to repair amount per leveland +2 to maximum spawn count per level

- Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level

- Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level

- Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to maximum spawn count per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level

How about you not make **** up. 399.05 shields and 987.75 armor on an Amarr Assault is the max you can dual tank an assault suit. that's 1386.8 Total HP. against Laser Weapons its 1504 Effective HP. You're a hundred off by the rarest weapon profile. -Check the sig.

An HP buff is only being requested by people that want to salvage their precious slayer-logis

im talkign about charlie and i didnt make it up it was stated in a rather legit and math heavy thread hotfix charlie+amarr assault = 1608 EHP.
ps. no need to be an *******, go take your meds.

Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness.

When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied.

Cheers,
Cross

How about you not make **** up. 399.05 shields and 987.75 armor on an Amarr Assault is the max you can dual tank an assault suit. that's 1386.8 Total HP. against Laser Weapons its 1504 Effective HP. You're a hundred off by the rarest weapon profile. -Check the sig.

An HP buff is only being requested by people that want to salvage their precious slayer-logis

An HP buff is only being requested by people that want to salvage their precious slayer-logis

EHP = Effective Hit Points and varies by the weapon profile used against you. Laser at 120/80 is different from CR at whatever it is i forgetGǪ you get the point though?

I'd like to request/reiterate that we keep this thread constructive, courteous, and on topic.

Please do feel free to call out instances where flawed data is seen, and where/why that data is flawed specifically but let's aim to do so diplomatically and with an eye to conversation.

Also, on the note of calling out flawed data, I can state empirically that the final statement of the quoted post

is demonstrably inaccurate.

Three data points indicating that;
1. I have never been a 'slayer logi'
2. I have long held, and still hold, that logi survivability is in an inadequate space and needs reworked (all of this is within the context of running a full support fit)
3. I am not the only player numbers 1 & 2 apply to.

Precision, especially when it comes to numbers, is useful and welcome, but no amount of precision can create a constructive discourse if we let the environment turn overtly hostile, let's focus on precluding such an event.

Thanks,
Cross

100% lack of confidence in Apothecary Za'ki (poor track record).
100% confidence in Shayz (stellar track record).

- 50M SP Scout

idk where that lack of confidence came from.. but yes shayz is a good logi and quite a few of his posts have helped me improve little by little. as for your being a scout do you even have logi experance?

I like the ideas i've read. Now one thing that bugs the hell out of me is that my logi Ck.0 is so damn slow. I have to use a CPU mod since my suit was robbed of CPU and I carry proto equipment. In the other 3 lows I NEED to have a reactive plate, cardiac reg and a kincat so I can keep up with the heavy I'm repping.

I'd love to see my logi get a little bit faster.

Logo mko

A fix to the "false positive" revive indicators.

Easier lock on mechanic for rep tools (prioritizing in crowds, etc.)

Actual bonuses on equipment skills, like more precision on scanners, more nanites on nanohives, more reps on repair tool, etc.

I run support logi and AV the vast majority of the time and dabble in Commando, Scout, and Assaults.

For context, my comments are made in light of the recently released Hotfix Charlie notes as well.

Logi Suit Balancing and Optimization:

1) If we go with Rattati's concept that frames tiers should have standardized slot layouts then we clearly need to ensure the suits are carrying the appropriate reservoir of CPU and PG. I suspect all Logi suits should be tweaked a bit but the most obvious concern is the Cal Logi - if you drop a low slot you clearly need to increase the CPU of the suit.

2) Survivability should be competitive with other suits...if you can't survive long enough to deliver equipment, reps, and revives then you have limited viability. Broadly, buffer will be more important than regen and regen is arguably more important to assault flavor suits. Recommendation would be to buff the base tank style of the racial suit or give an efficacy bonus to extenders and plates per logi level.

3) Equipment bonuses (beyond CPU/PG reduction) should clearly be broadened to more than a single equipment flavor which clearly advantages some racial options over others, i.e. Min Logi. I would recommend taking a look at Cass Caul's proposal on broadening the bonus as a start point.


Equipment Comments

1) It may create some hate eye pointed at me but we should make RE's an option to carry in the Grenade slot instead of an equipment slot. Hear me out...you skill into it via the weapon tree and it uses the same access skills as the grenade. Why is it considered an equipment slot? There is also something about making you choose between your Core Locus, Wyrikomi AV grenade, or standard variant RE (that is more lethal then either of those two previously noted offerings!).

Commando Optimization:

1) Recommend that Min / Cal get share the damage bonus on Swarms and Amarr / Gal share the damage bonus on PLC. These pushes the needle slightly in favor of the Commando suppression / combat support role.

Swarm Launchers

1) Velocity of swarm missiles needs to noticeably increase...Drop ships outrunning swarms borders on the ridiculous. I'm pretty deep into SP investment for SLs and honestly the damage they deliver now is adequate but delivering the damage to a drop ship in particular is very sketchy.

2) Lock range of SLs need a very mild increase. Recommendation would be to increase the lock range to 200m...the additional 25m's of range would be very well received and open up engagement opportunities noticeably.

1) It may create some hate eye pointed at me but we should make RE's an option to carry in the Grenade slot instead of an equipment slot. Hear me out...you skill into it via the weapon tree and it uses the same access skills as the grenade. Why is it considered an equipment slot? There is also something about making you choose between your Core Locus, Wyrikomi AV grenade, or standard variant RE (that is more lethal then either of those two previously noted offerings!)

Swarm Launchers

1) Velocity of swarm missiles needs to noticeably increase...Drop ships outrunning swarms borders on the ridiculous. I'm pretty deep into SP investment for SLs and honestly the damage they deliver now is adequate but delivering the damage to a drop ship in particular is very sketchy.

2) Lock range of SLs need a very mild increase. Recommendation would be to increase the lock range to 200m...the additional 25m's of range would be very well received and open up engagement opportunities noticeably.

The Minlogi + sentinel combo is arguebly the best duo in the game, because of the bonus the min has on the reptool and the speedy nature of the suit compared with 4 equipment slots. Now imagine a Core focus reptool with the suit bonus of Pro Min logi and a extra lvl 5 reptool operation bonus. To me that sounds OP and if people would call that OP they're right for once.

Logo mko

A fix to the "false positive" revive indicators.

Easier lock on mechanic for rep tools (prioritizing in crowds, etc.)

Actual bonuses on equipment skills, like more precision on scanners, more nanites on nanohives, more reps on repair tool, etc.

Min-logi = me = all possible roles including assault dropship pilot when it absolutely has to be there ... right now.

I agree with comments about ehp buffs, regardless of minutae about maths. Its hard to support your buddies when you are dead.

I agree that some sort of logi role homogenisation would be good, allowing logi to excel at one support role and compete with the other logi suits, leaving the remainder of non logi suits a close 3rd in capability.

Switching equipment seems laggy with me, it could be that there is a server side request to check if I have the equipment, making it slower (about 350 miliseconds) and if so I expect there is little I can do aboout that. Seemless switching between logi equipment would be a boon.

A massive change in passive EWAR mechanics would help all classes but especially the fragile logi suits. Give the vehicles an appropriate signature. Make the vehicles show up at a much greater distance. Make all suits more scannable at closer ranges, the equation should be fairly simple to get right. If a scout is standing next to me I expect to be able to see him on my passive, at that point he is taking up a significant portion of my passive scan radius and it should be obvious he is there. Tanks are especially bad for zooming in at high speed with no signature until they are within meters of you. Better EWAR capabilities for Logi suits would be much appreciated but I don't have an exact mechanic in mind. It seems like a dedicated support character should be able to do better than it currently does.

While you are at it with EWAR, please make all hostile and allied turrets show up on TACNET and in the overview map, nice big glowing icons, all the time please. They have infinite ammunition and lots of HP, we should be able to detect them at great distances.

Anyone standing within 10m of a drop link should show up on it's passive scan, it can see them (except for cloaked scouts though) people camping links is silly, it should be noticable.

Let us restock HAV and LAV ammunition with prototype nanohives. Just a little bit.

Give the logi "feedback repair" while actively repairing other suits with a rep tool. % based on suits and skills of course. 5-10% total perhaps?

From the AV support role, Swarm Launcher missiles fly far too slow, they can already be easily defeated by going round obstacles, they should at least be able to catch up with fleeing vehicles much faster than they currently do.

Reduce the fire rate of all (non assault) scrambler rifles by 50%. If no one has told you already, they are being massively abused, people are using modded controllers etc and firing at the same rate as an assault scrambler for (approx) X2 the DPS of any rifle weapon. Not directly related to Logi I know but thought I would slip it in here ;)

And how would you propose one uses the grenade slot to activate remotes?

Anything less than 300m is just ineffectual. Lock-on range and travel-speed are nearly a singular issue

Bah! I nearly forgot about my Logistics ak.0. I was wondering why a Logi would carry swarms.

Good comments.

1) Short answer on RE "one buttoning" is I don't know. I'm just commenting on the fact the RE is skilled via the weapons tree and is the only equipment option that doesn't give some kinda of bonus based on racial / role bonuses. As for ideally how I would like to see the RE be used in a 'nade slot you have a few options (most of which I assume you won't like ) such as using the grenade button essentially as a weapon switch function for REs, or perhaps it's an instant toss (similar to nades or REs in hand now) and if you want to go to the detonator you use normal control schemata or if you've emplaced your limit the detonator automatically comes up.

Either way it's not a major issue for me....toss range is more sketchy as far as REs go. Honestly, I would like you to have to emplace them by holding down the trigger for 2 or 3 seconds (with skill investment to bring the time down).

2) Trust me...way on board with longer lock range. Is 300m the right range, I don't know, but I figured that 200m was much more palatable than 300m since that would be a pretty serious adjustment. Again...missile velocity is a higher priority for me personally but they both really need to be buffed.

Good comments.

1) Short answer on RE "one buttoning" is I don't know. I'm just commenting on the fact the RE is skilled via the weapons tree and is the only equipment option that doesn't give some kinda of bonus based on racial / role bonuses. As for ideally how I would like to see the RE be used in a 'nade slot you have a few options (most of which I assume you won't like ) such as using the grenade button essentially as a weapon switch function for REs, or perhaps it's an instant toss (similar to nades or REs in hand now) and if you want to go to the detonator you use normal control schemata or if you've emplaced your limit the detonator automatically comes up.

Either way it's not a major issue for me....toss range is more sketchy as far as REs go. Honestly, I would like you to have to emplace them by holding down the trigger for 2 or 3 seconds (with skill investment to bring the time down).

2) Trust me...way on board with longer lock range. Is 300m the right range, I don't know, but I figured that 200m was much more palatable than 300m since that would be a pretty serious adjustment. Again...missile velocity is a higher priority for me personally but they both really need to be buffed.