DUST Search - CPM input request: Logistics & Support.

John Demonsbane wrote:

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

Meee One wrote:

ResistanceGTA wrote:

You know, a lot of information, can't process as I'm at 2 hours of sleep in the past 40 hours, but I would like to pop in this conversation at some point.

But what's with this 'removing undocumented CPU reduction on Nanocircuitry'? It says it right on the skillbook, just because CCP is lazy and never readded it to the skill description doesn't mean we should remove it. We need more passives, not less.

The problem is that other suits besides logistics gets the bonus too.

Not seeing how this is a bad thing.

Speaking as a logi, I don't see an issue either, really. I know it's always bugged shayz, tbh I'm not sure if that's because it just doesn't say it in the main skill screen or if he has an actual issue with the bonus itself.

Nanohives are the one piece of equipment that you really can't make an argument against everyone using. If you don't want assaults, for example, using nanohives, then you may as well just take the EQ slot away.

As for "solving" EQ spam, there's a few reasonable solutions around. You could streamline the EQ line, like Meee suggests, which is OK. I've suggested a skill-based limitation on deployable equipment as well. (the website is not letting me look at my favorites right now and I'm too lazy to find it otherwise)

A much better solution, imo, was brought up by vell0cet. If it is technically feasible to do, then it's unquestionably the best solution I've ever read.

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Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3661	Posted - 2014.11.01 10:50:00 - [871] - Quote Iteration 3 is up, current revision includes the new native armor rep stats. This iteration should be considered in draft form until after the 1.9 patch has been deployed and we have further opportunity to test its effects, I'm just getting a jump on things See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1042	Posted - 2014.11.01 11:11:00 - [872] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Iteration 3 is up, current revision includes the new native armor rep stats. This iteration should be considered in draft form until after the 1.9 patch has been deployed and we have further opportunity to test its effects, I'm just getting a jump on things Just took a quick look, some questions (i'm not so up to date anymore): Are the slot lay-outs the same as the current ones in the 3rd draft? Why the CPU difference between the cal assault and logi, will it work? (at first glance it seems that equipment is more CPU favorable for logis, but what about the shield modules?) something small: Think you mixed the 'current' (no change) & 'proposed' (empty) columns of Scan profile/precision?
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3661	Posted - 2014.11.01 11:17:00 - [873] - Quote RKKR wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Iteration 3 is up, current revision includes the new native armor rep stats. This iteration should be considered in draft form until after the 1.9 patch has been deployed and we have further opportunity to test its effects, I'm just getting a jump on things Just took a quick look, some questions (i'm not so up to date anymore): Are the slot lay-outs the same as the current ones in the 3rd draft? Why the CPU difference between the cal assault and logi, will it work? (at first glance it seems that equipment is more CPU favorable for logis, but what about the shield modules?) something small: Think you mixed the 'current' (no change) & 'proposed' (empty) columns of Scan profile/precision? Slot layouts have not been altered in any of the drafts, High/Low would retain present distribution under the proposal. All CPU and PG changes assume the simultaneous change of the Logistics Role bonus, the increase in which will more than compensate for any lost fittings values on nearly all fits running full racks of equipment (i.e. fits with full equipment may even have a little be extra compared to current, while fits without full sets of equipment will be facing more of a pinch than they do at present). Thanks for the heads up about the possible column mix up, I'll give it a look o7 See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1043	Posted - 2014.11.01 11:31:00 - [874] - Quote Thanks for the quick response, about the column mix up: I just thought you wanted to put the 'no changes' in the proposed-column and add numbers to the current-column, now the 'no changes' is in the current-column (without any numbers).
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1232	Posted - 2014.11.01 12:36:00 - [875] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: RKKR wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Iteration 3 is up, current revision includes the new native armor rep stats. This iteration should be considered in draft form until after the 1.9 patch has been deployed and we have further opportunity to test its effects, I'm just getting a jump on things Just took a quick look, some questions (i'm not so up to date anymore): Are the slot lay-outs the same as the current ones in the 3rd draft? Why the CPU difference between the cal assault and logi, will it work? (at first glance it seems that equipment is more CPU favorable for logis, but what about the shield modules?) something small: Think you mixed the 'current' (no change) & 'proposed' (empty) columns of Scan profile/precision? Slot layouts have not been altered in any of the drafts, High/Low would retain present distribution under the proposal. All CPU and PG changes assume the simultaneous change of the Logistics Role bonus, the increase in which will more than compensate for any lost fittings values on nearly all fits running full racks of equipment (i.e. fits with full equipment may even have a little be extra compared to current, while fits without full sets of equipment will be facing more of a pinch than they do at present). Thanks for the heads up about the possible column mix up, I'll give it a look EDIT: Game is currently in downtime, I will update the stat profile at a later time when it is back up. o7 So cross... Is cal logi going to get +1 equipment,or are scouts going to lose a sidearm? Basic Cal logi has 2 equipment,low base stats,-1 weapon. Scouts have 2 equipment,both weapons. Scouts need to lose either 1 sidearm or 1 equipment. -or- Cal logis need to gain +1 equipment at every teir. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4298	Posted - 2014.11.01 13:25:00 - [876] - Quote I love how you phrase every suggestion in the form of an ultimatum. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
TRULY ELITE WarRavens Capital Punishment. 88	Posted - 2014.11.01 17:04:00 - [877] - Quote Any chance you can buff the rep hives to a 40,60,80 approach. I don't get think this will create unbalance as a rep tool can do this with higher HP/s and unlimited. K-17D Nanohives 20 -> 40 Allotek Nanohives (R) 40 -> 60 Wyrikomi Nanohives 70 -> 80 Also for the Caldari Logi why not add a 2% increase total armour & shields for the nanite injector. Obviously it wouldn't work with 100% needle.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 233	Posted - 2014.11.02 10:51:00 - [878] - Quote Uh, seems like I left this thread too long and I need to catch up. Reading through the iterations today and will comment later. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1233	Posted - 2014.11.02 14:25:00 - [879] - Quote TRULY ELITE wrote: Any chance you can buff the rep hives to a 40,60,80 approach. I don't get think this will create unbalance as a rep tool can do this with higher HP/s and unlimited. K-17D Nanohives 20 -> 40 Allotek Nanohives (R) 40 -> 60 Wyrikomi Nanohives 70 -> 80 Also for the Caldari Logi why not add a 2% increase total armour & shields for the nanite injector. Obviously it wouldn't work with 100% needle. No,this would only allow logistics to be further degraded. Scenario: -damaged,need repair -use logistics as they were ment for (support) or heal self -'but the logi is a whole 6m away,that's too far' -heal self The problem wouldn't be the buff per se,it would be the fact players wouldn't need a logistics when they otherwise would. This would horribly break balance in scouts and assaults favor. Scouts because their two equipment slots,assaults because they would have one less weakness. Heavies would be UP because it would take 2 suits (logi and heavy) to achieve the same effect. More needs to be done to encourage having logistics around,not fitting an assault with hybrids and saying screw logis. Also the Cal logi bonus applies to hybrids to be nearly that same value. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 12	Posted - 2014.11.02 14:39:00 - [880] - Quote Is anyone else concerned about the nanite injector in 1.9 being opt-in instead of opt-out for team revives? Dust 5/14

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4401	Posted - 2014.11.02 14:47:00 - [881] - Quote Z3dog wrote: Is anyone else concerned about the nanite injector in 1.9 being opt-in instead of opt-out for team revives? Yes. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1233	Posted - 2014.11.02 15:11:00 - [882] - Quote Z3dog wrote: Is anyone else concerned about the nanite injector in 1.9 being opt-in instead of opt-out for team revives? Most players probably won't consider using it unless they are ISK poor. Vets will probably never use it. And newer players probably won't know how to use the revive function because there isn't a tutorial for it. Having to request a pick up is like asking to be let to die in a car crash IRL. It makes no sense. "Why didn't you save that guy in the crashed car?" "Because he didn't ask me to." Lolwut? That type of response can get you charged with manslaughter. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 12	Posted - 2014.11.02 15:21:00 - [883] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Z3dog wrote: Is anyone else concerned about the nanite injector in 1.9 being opt-in instead of opt-out for team revives? Yes. Thanks. Guess I'll be unequipping my nanite injectors when 1.9 comes out. Dust 5/14
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3676	Posted - 2014.11.02 18:08:00 - [884] - Quote Z3dog wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Z3dog wrote: Is anyone else concerned about the nanite injector in 1.9 being opt-in instead of opt-out for team revives? Yes. Thanks. Guess I'll be unequipping my nanite injectors when 1.9 comes out. I recommend running a MLT injector for the first two weeks after 1.9 so that you can see the icon if players call for revive and assess directly how often you will have use for the needle. Same with Active Scanners, select the lowest level Active Scanner on the market - that has team scan enabled - and test under battlefield conditions to see what value it does or does not hold for your own play conditions. If everyone tests the new changes rather than assumes effects we can provide more meaningful feedback to CCP regarding the impact and implication of the various changes. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3746	Posted - 2014.11.08 19:32:00 - [885] - Quote Looking for continued feedback on the state of injectors, active scanners, and survivability in 1.9 Also check out the eWar thread to voice your opinions there. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4994	Posted - 2014.11.08 20:11:00 - [886] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Looking for continued feedback on the state of injectors, active scanners, and survivability in 1.9 Also check out the eWar thread to voice your opinions there. Injectors are awesome now. Being able to tell which person needs to be picked up by who is requesting it helps a ton. The problem now is that no one ever uses them because you can't get revives easily anymore. Because of this I suggest that wp is increased to 75 or even 100 since you can make that much easily by repairing a person for a few seconds. We also don't have the problem of people picking up someone in the middle of a gunfight multiple times for 60 points a pop...part of the reason it has never been increased before. Rewards are still an issue with logistics. Resupply, transport assist, and scanner rewards should all be increased as well. Triage and team spawn should be decreased. I find myself much more survivable in 1.9 using a dampener and precision on my logi, although I loved rattati's idea about giving logistics a better precision while assaults have better dampening. Team scans definitely helps the meta as profile dampeners are much more useful again and scouts show up on radar more frequently . They can also be broadcasted to nearby blue dots so that being a logi can be more team based instead of only helping your squad. Scanners NEED to be rebalanced in terms of stats. Proto Flux is overpowered and Proximity is the worst scanner in the game. Shorter range scanners should have wide angles while longer range ones should be small angles. This allows the total scanned area to be more equal for all scanners instead of the flux being able to scan an entire map while the proximity only scans a small patch of ground in front of your feet. HOWEVER, scanners do not need a nerf to range and Rattati is very wrong in thinking that they do. To add onto that, duration of all scanners should be nerfed instead, but only if you also slightly reduce recharge delay as well. Quantum scanners need to keep a significant advantage. Introducing squad-only scanners with the current durations would then be the next step. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1047	Posted - 2014.11.09 12:27:00 - [887] - Quote It wouldn't hurt to make it more clear that you have to ask for help if you want to revive. I keep forgetting itself and it seems that you can see who the dead fellow on the ground is now with an e empty health bar when looking at them. I found a few of them who where lying there for a long time before respawning without asking for help. Haven't really noticed less revives yet, but I usually only use them when running in a squad anyway. My survivability seems to be the same, but haven't played that much yet.
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1047	Posted - 2014.11.10 09:58:00 - [888] - Quote Cross, Why is CCP even considering to change the orbital system (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=179453&find=unread) before adjusting the support role? It's already no fun to run around when you have used up all your deployable equipment and now they want to make it even more useless by making it more easier than it is now to destroy equipment. Why can't they fix the support role first before implementing this? (enough ideas were already given in the past)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4776	Posted - 2014.11.10 10:29:00 - [889] - Quote RKKR wrote: Cross, Why is CCP even considering to change the orbital system (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=179453&find=unread) before adjusting the support role? It's already no fun to run around when you have used up all your deployable equipment and now they want to make it even more useless by making it more easier than it is now to destroy equipment. Why can't they fix the support role first before implementing this? (enough ideas were already given in the past) The game is too dependent upon equipment spam. Logis are too squishy but every match is decided by who can vomit out the mpst equipment. This needs to be fixed or logis will simply swing 180 and stay a problem in the game. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1047	Posted - 2014.11.10 10:51:00 - [890] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The game is too dependent upon equipment spam. Yes they should focus on this problem, not a counter to this problem.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4777	Posted - 2014.11.10 10:56:00 - [891] - Quote RKKR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: The game is too dependent upon equipment spam. Yes they should focus on this problem, not a counter to this problem. Nerfing the utter crap out of, or removing uplinks entirely is the only way to deal with the problem without providing a counter. Your logic is flawed. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
RKKR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1049	Posted - 2014.11.10 18:01:00 - [892] - Quote You haven't thought about ways that makes the game less dependent on equipment spam in the first place did you? Well you are completely right, my logic is flawed, CCP will never implement different mechanics, let's wrap this thread up. Have a nice day.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1257	Posted - 2014.11.11 01:08:00 - [893] - Quote RKKR wrote: Cross, Why is CCP even considering to change the orbital system (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=179453&find=unread) before adjusting the support role? It's already no fun to run around when you have used up all your deployable equipment and now they want to make it even more useless by making it more easier than it is now to destroy equipment. Why can't they fix the support role first before implementing this? (enough ideas were already given in the past) My guess would be that support costs them AUR. Why skill a Pro suit when a logi can keep you alive in ADV? Why buy boosters? How do you lose AUR gear if a logi can negate it? Simple,create more ways to attack,but leave support lacking. Deploy hives,EMP drop. Repping a heavy,solo strike. It's all being intentionally designed to make supporting increasingly more difficult,and with solo strikes,impossible. For example,during the 'sidearm balancing' BP were made so strong they could OHK an untanked Min logi. This made eWAR a fatal choice over eHP mods. Yet logistics saw no buffs,neither did rep tools,or any other equipment for that matter. Hell,look at cross' suggested buffs. Logistics will be just fast enough to be chased down by every suit in the game. Logistics will have just enough stamina to fail escaping from every suit in the game. Logistics will have just enough to fail at everything,like it does right now. And with the recent crazy damage increases it's all superficial. Eg. Logistics has 100 eHP,guns do 50 Logistics gets 200 eHP,guns now do 100 Until logistics is seen as a specialist,and not just the assaults re.tarded cousin it'll never get specialist stats worthy of it. It'll always require a squad,in a game where literally every other suit doesn't. It's a ridiculous requirement just to not kill things. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1257	Posted - 2014.11.11 01:19:00 - [894] - Quote RKKR wrote: You haven't thought about ways that makes the game less dependent on equipment spam in the first place did you? Well you are completely right, my logic is flawed, CCP will never implement different mechanics, let's wrap this thread up. Have a nice day. Well,there is a way to reduce equipment spam. Remove basic variants. Remove flux variants of hives and rep tools. For hives,have the Ishukone guaged as the standard. Flux hives only add 1-2m with 0 other benefits. For uplinks have a flux variant become the standard. -or- 1 set of equipment per type per suit. The flux rep tool is a waste. The boundless repairs suits faster,at nearly the same range. The A-7 Axis,an ADV tool,repairs vehicles faster. Remove the flux and replace it with the boundless. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1678	Posted - 2014.11.11 01:26:00 - [895] - Quote You know, a lot of information, can't process as I'm at 2 hours of sleep in the past 40 hours, but I would like to pop in this conversation at some point. My sister had her first kid early this morning, so I've been at the hospital quite a bit today (everyone is happy and healthy, btw). But what's with this 'removing undocumented CPU reduction on Nanocircuitry'? It says it right on the skillbook, just because CCP is lazy and never readded it to the skill description doesn't mean we should remove it. We need more passives, not less. If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1257	Posted - 2014.11.11 01:28:00 - [896] - Quote ResistanceGTA wrote: You know, a lot of information, can't process as I'm at 2 hours of sleep in the past 40 hours, but I would like to pop in this conversation at some point. But what's with this 'removing undocumented CPU reduction on Nanocircuitry'? It says it right on the skillbook, just because CCP is lazy and never readded it to the skill description doesn't mean we should remove it. We need more passives, not less. The problem is that other suits besides logistics gets the bonus too. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 836	Posted - 2014.11.11 07:28:00 - [897] - Quote Meee One wrote: ResistanceGTA wrote: You know, a lot of information, can't process as I'm at 2 hours of sleep in the past 40 hours, but I would like to pop in this conversation at some point. But what's with this 'removing undocumented CPU reduction on Nanocircuitry'? It says it right on the skillbook, just because CCP is lazy and never readded it to the skill description doesn't mean we should remove it. We need more passives, not less. The problem is that other suits besides logistics gets the bonus too. ...why is this a problem? The description doesn't claim it's a logi specific bonus, after all. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2146	Posted - 2014.11.11 07:29:00 - [898] - Quote Meee One wrote: ResistanceGTA wrote: You know, a lot of information, can't process as I'm at 2 hours of sleep in the past 40 hours, but I would like to pop in this conversation at some point. But what's with this 'removing undocumented CPU reduction on Nanocircuitry'? It says it right on the skillbook, just because CCP is lazy and never readded it to the skill description doesn't mean we should remove it. We need more passives, not less. The problem is that other suits besides logistics gets the bonus too. Not seeing how this is a bad thing. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4497	Posted - 2014.11.11 14:03:00 - [899] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Meee One wrote: ResistanceGTA wrote: You know, a lot of information, can't process as I'm at 2 hours of sleep in the past 40 hours, but I would like to pop in this conversation at some point. But what's with this 'removing undocumented CPU reduction on Nanocircuitry'? It says it right on the skillbook, just because CCP is lazy and never readded it to the skill description doesn't mean we should remove it. We need more passives, not less. The problem is that other suits besides logistics gets the bonus too. Not seeing how this is a bad thing. Speaking as a logi, I don't see an issue either, really. I know it's always bugged shayz, tbh I'm not sure if that's because it just doesn't say it in the main skill screen or if he has an actual issue with the bonus itself. Nanohives are the one piece of equipment that you really can't make an argument against everyone using. If you don't want assaults, for example, using nanohives, then you may as well just take the EQ slot away. As for "solving" EQ spam, there's a few reasonable solutions around. You could streamline the EQ line, like Meee suggests, which is OK. I've suggested a skill-based limitation on deployable equipment as well. (the website is not letting me look at my favorites right now and I'm too lazy to find it otherwise) A much better solution, imo, was brought up by vell0cet. If it is technically feasible to do, then it's unquestionably the best solution I've ever read. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3764	Posted - 2014.11.12 08:40:00 - [900] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Meee One wrote: ResistanceGTA wrote: You know, a lot of information, can't process as I'm at 2 hours of sleep in the past 40 hours, but I would like to pop in this conversation at some point. But what's with this 'removing undocumented CPU reduction on Nanocircuitry'? It says it right on the skillbook, just because CCP is lazy and never readded it to the skill description doesn't mean we should remove it. We need more passives, not less. The problem is that other suits besides logistics gets the bonus too. Not seeing how this is a bad thing. Speaking as a logi, I don't see an issue either, really. I know it's always bugged shayz, tbh I'm not sure if that's because it just doesn't say it in the main skill screen or if he has an actual issue with the bonus itself. Nanohives are the one piece of equipment that you really can't make an argument against everyone using. If you don't want assaults, for example, using nanohives, then you may as well just take the EQ slot away. As for "solving" EQ spam, there's a few reasonable solutions around. You could streamline the EQ line, like Meee suggests, which is OK. I've suggested a skill-based limitation on deployable equipment as well. (the website is not letting me look at my favorites right now and I'm too lazy to find it otherwise) A much better solution, imo, was brought up by vell0cet. If it is technically feasible to do, then it's unquestionably the best solution I've ever read. Undocumented skill effects are generally a bad thing, in the case of this one it is problematic because it effects the interplay between classes, races, equipment types and roles. Either we could add effects to all equipment related skills, rebalanced everything, or remove this undocumented effect. The point being that balancing around something which isn't clearly stated or explained is a consistent mess / pervasive distortion. To be clear I am all for every skill providing more than unlocks, but that is its own polish/balance pass so even if an effect like this is ultimately applied to all equipment related skills (something I wouldn't oppose at all) removing the undocumented effect now is still best practice with regards to balance and assessing clearly the state of suits and equipment. 0.02 ISK Cross PS ~ I love my new Apex Minmatar Logi suit, call me addicted to Fac War but I just find it fun to run faction suits in faction battles See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)



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