As is usual, I agree with a lot of what RedBleach said, in particular I've always liked the Logi as "light medium" instead of the "heavy medium", though there is a good case to be made the other way. But if you do that, like he said, you better be putting a pretty sizable HP buff on the table.

One place I do disagree though, is in the CPU/PG buff. Personally, while there are obvious issues with the Caldari CPU, and the Amarr logi PG has literally always been broken since it's creation... it was, what, some laughable amount like 20 PG at STD when it first existed?

But, I don't think that a fitting resource buff to the level of the assault is the answer. I would favor a more modest buff and then a 50-100% increase to the fitting bonus instead, to make it relatively easy to fit proto equipment but not proto weapons. This is just a sort of pre-emptive thing to stop the slayerlogi derpiness that is 100% guaranteed to follow any buff to logis.

By doing it with an EQ bonus you can very easily make the claim that the offensive capabilities of the suit will be at most only modestly better but the "intended" capability, as a support platform, is brought in line with the other frames.

After running around with the injector without a squad:

First of all, running without a squad makes a logi more vurnable as you don't have teammates (to communicate) to protect you and that random have none to almost no situational awareness (with the consequences that you have to use your gun yourself more than usual to protect your pretty ass). This also leads to blueberries dying in places where it is too dangerous to revive. The case of joining a good squads are rare, but they are usually happy that you are using a proto-injector which leads in more patience to being revived (in the case if they do die).

It seems that enough people are calling for help, my problem HOWEVER is that people usually call TOO LATE for their revival:

In most cases I could have revived a blue dot successfully if they had called for help much sooner. By the time that they called for help the enemy team would have usually taken over the position, making a revive too dangerous or impossible.

When two dots died at one location and they both ask for help at a different time. I think this explains itself, it's a waste of effort/opportunity and I'm already wasting my time shooting red berries myself most of the time due to the stupidity of randoms.

On being revived myself (usually doesn't happen): lol people still time their revives badly, sometimes I'm already dead before I gain control over my character.

Possible solution:
Make it so that you can stab people and that they have to accept the revive after they got stabbed (oh, I guess this was proposed many times before....). I don't care if you give WP after he accepts the revive or not or divide it between a +35 "first aid" for the stab & +35 "Revive" for the actual revive or not at all. I want to revive and help my team efficiently in the first place.

...
The proposed changes as linked in the spreadsheet cannot be taken piecemeal or they are broken.
The alteration to suit stats without the changes to role bonus are key here without one the other is not properly applying.

With both in place logi frames being used without equipment have fewer resources than current, while logi frames being used with a full set of equipment will have more net resources to use. This combined effect allows for more freedom to buff the overall logi frame and role while still precluding any theoretical risk of use as a slayer suit.

So, please carry on with the feedback, but bear in mind that with regards to the proposal if you are not considering the entire proposal then the suggestions will be distorted/broken. They are meant to be taken together, or not at all.

Cheers,
Cross

The rep,tool changes are interesting. If we really can get a shield transporter then obviously I'd rework my bonus proposal, certainly regarding the Caldari, one could legitimately see giving them a shield rep bonus, Amarr/Gallente obviously an armor rep bonus, and potentially both to the minmatar. Some interesting minmatar builds could come from that...

As for deployable equipment, I really think the best solution is the bandwidth one, if that's not possible then some kind of limit that majorly favors cal/Amarr logis would be the next best move. My only issue with the various proposals to give more WP or whatever for proto is the potential negative impact on new players,

Finally, scanners - eaving the actual nuts and bolts of db and duration/radius aside for now, but yes they do need work - and speaking strictly in terms of its rewards, I think the +15 for squad kill assists is probably still sufficient, provided you added 5-10 points for a team kill assist.
My reasoning is that with all the ewar domination of the battlefield, it's a useful/necessary enough pierce of equipment that modest rewards are good enough to encourage use... At least in the current state of ewar, which is apparently changing.

I'll try to get around to sharing some numbers and maybe some things in protofits regarding my proposal on modest resource buff and big fitting bonus buff, but victor had it pretty much right (it was me he was thinking of - there's something along those lines I posted in this thread somewhere). While its totally correct as mentioned a few posts up, the environment that created slayer logi's is long since gone, but there's a very irrational bias still lingering about it that unfortunately cannot be ignored lest there be backlash against any Logi buff.


EDIT: just saw redbleach's post above. That's a really good point about lock on without depletion of the reservoir I hadn't thought of. That definitely should be addressed, and God yes, please give us back some kind of rep indicator. We toned down the red hit indicator flash, don't see why we can't do the same for reps, though in a perfect world with frequent real patches, a there are better ways to do it, like a pulse on your HUD.

I got a kick out of that question myself. You're losing your street cred with the kids somehow Shayz, isn't that the second or even third person in this thread to question you?
Gotta start promoting yourself more, maybe get a hype man or something!


TBH, I think Cross does intend this thread more as an idea farm, from which he can draw things to propose to CCP, and then later on we get the manna from heaven of a Rattati thread outlining a buff to our class. (The problem with these threads is separating out the chaff, of course)

As for the shield tool, this is just a guess on my part, but considering he is calling it an "infantry shield transporter" the logical conclusion is that it would work the same as the vehicular equivalent. I realize that he likened it to a rep tool, but that would be the easiest way to explain it to people who are unfamiliar with them.

I would love to see numbers worked up especially with any annotation on how and why the contrast the current listings.
This proposal has undergone so many revisions both within the community and internally (usually meaning I find out something either does not, or cannot, work mechanically as I had hoped and thus must be worked around) that it is sometimes hard for me to keep track of whether everything is current and as it should be with regard to the numeric details (these are of course important details but they are often derivative ones as well which makes them harder to keep track of).

Anyway, if a concept seems sound but the specific numbers do not execute it properly then by all means feel free to provide alternatives you know me I'm big into discourse.

Now, you have an entire post with a lot more 'meat' to it than the bit I've excerpted above and I am still reading (and re-reading) the thread but I just wanted to get this bit out right now.

Cheers,
Cross

For the record, that "hidden" bonus for nanohives comes from the Nanocircuitry skill providing a 5% CPU reduction per level to nanohives and needles.

The only flaw of that skill is that it's simply not listed in the description that there's a CPU reduction bonus. Any "hotfix" of that should be to merely add the appropriate description to the skill so it's a case of "oh, hey, if I increase my Nanocircuitry skill, I get access to better hives and a reduction in hive/needle CPU usage? awesome!"

I don't think I'd make that blanket statement. KIN injectors are pretty decent now that they give shields, and the BDR-8 rep tool is extremely cost-effective in terms of both ISK and CPU/PG, probably even more so with a Min logi. STD links on my Amarr logi are about the same as anyone else's PRO links.

Also, this change would be much bigger for the Amarr/Cal, we only have 2 EQ slots at STD, it's hard to do anything with that.

Finally, you could always leave the 4th EQ slot empty (heresy, I know) if you really had to, but with a buff to the fitting bonus I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to put something there, even if was just a compact nano.

Logistics Mk.0

Injectors:
WP as incentive is nice,but if a MLT frame can walk up and tap O to negate your Pro needle then the problem still remains.
Doesn't really help shield tankers.
-Need a needle priority system that uses the HIGHEST level needle when reviving.
-Possibly reduce the amount of armor refilled and give a comperable amount of shields instead.

Rep tool:
Neon "kill me" sign.
Can't outrep a MLT weapon with a Pro rep tool.
Places logistics firmly on the frontlines of combat with its insanely short reach.
Provides 0 incentive other than WP farming.
Allies don't know they're being repaired.
Doesn't really help shield tankers.
-Remove the rep tool line to aid in logistics survival,leave the lock on boxes.
-Give damage resistance while using (something like 65% to all damage)
-Increase range by dramatic amounts for the logistics class.
-Return the rep tool glow,but have it work like hit detection so an ally can see which side they are being repaired from
-Negate shield recharge delays while used on allies,or recharge 25% of shields per hp/s restored. (eg sixkin 88 hp/s so 25% of 88) possibly reduce armor repair rate to compensate. Presto a rep tool that helps shield and armor.

Hives - Any-
Too easily destroyed by any stray explosions.
Low carrying capacity.
Low refilling amounts. (nanites)
Annoying when a MLT frame stands on top throwing grenades at no one to use them faster.
-Explosive resistance increase so it actually takes effort to destroy them.
-+1 carried per level logistics bonus
-Increased nanites -or- burst variants that refill faster but have lower nanites (think compact nanohives).
-Disable grenades being refilled

Scanners:
Dat cooldown.
-Nuff' said

Uplinks:
Actually alright

R.E.s:
The description says volitile chemicals yet i see scouts throw them from hights taller than their own suit,and sling them as if they are throwing frisbees.
Are considered equipment yet can be refilled at nanohives.
-Have them explode killing only the thrower if dropped from too high a height or slung with too much momentum
-Disable refilling from hives

Logistics suits:
30 more eHP than a scout
Slower than heavier tanked mediums
Bigger hitbox despite having less eHP
Doesn't have the best regen despite having less eHP
Doesn't have the best eHP despite its speed.
When run as a support unit it costs easily 2x as much with 1/2 the survival


Since logistics has more in common with scouts (ewar,equipment) logistics should be made to mimic them.

-Keep the low eHP but in exchange give speed/stamina,regen amount and speed,and a smaller hitbox.
This way it establishes a theme,support is fast and evasive,while killing is strong and durable.

-Cut equipment costs by 50% minimal



Based on personal experience,i would prefer to be harder to hit with better regen than have higher eHP.
eHP just makes it too tempting to fight instead of support.

I ran LOGI for 2+ years. I feal i have to stick with the 'CORE REP' to do any fun progressive repping. If you just upped the rep rate and made them prioritize on squad mates(if the coding doesent kill the game). Allso, dont go with the longest range, like maybe have the range from the standard rep on something like a core, that would make them working just fine i think. I allso agree they need a slight EHP bonus and speed but in addition If you guys could add modules that extends the range of the rep tool on cost of a tank fit that would be savvy.
If you re balance to make them give less damage then the other classes you can easily evade the risk of combat logi.
Maybe boost the passive scan range so they can do some actual logistics too, but you guys tell me if im wrong

I propose a new tier of War Point generation:

+15-40wp for Logi Guarding.

Basically, using the existing Cocentric Circles data add the above modifier to the reward total generated by any teammate who successfully makes a kill while within the Cocentric Circle range of any friendly Logi. The closer they are to said Logi, the higher the WP reward.

Part of the major issue in running Logistics outside of a Corp or Friend squad is that the suit and role is made to require what Meee One called an "escort". We need to be protected. Not just by our heavies, but by everyone. And we rarely, actively, are. So, incentivise that. Add a WP reward to defending the Logi.

This will not only encourage randomblues to actively protect that sillybluebannana BUT will also help mitigate some of this WarPoint/Leaderboard envy that, while not spoken of directly often, infuses most arguements against Logi performance/reward buffs.



4 frikin months and we can't get any meaningful direct buffs. Maybe we can get something for our teammates instead.

Perhaps this is yet another example of the people designing the game not having played it enough to understand many of the mechanics... Like the fact that, for a logi, order of the equipment in the slots can make a huge difference, particularly with any lag involved on top of the already clunky equipment wheel.
Though I would remind you, there is no universal equipment layout, every logi makes their own, so your preferred order would be annoying to someone else. Though I guess if it was at least consistent between different APEX suits, that would be at least logical (too logical for CCP?)
Pretty much, the issue here is that APEX suits are what they are, BPO suits that are noncustomisable. You knew what you were buing... well, except for the (minor) issue, when it comes to the APEX suits, of there being no way to know what you are buying in-game

This works for uplinks, but splitting up ammo is simply a bad idea. As it is it takes next to no time for 2-3 people to drain a proto hive, even with CalLogi bonuses. So I'd simply advocate increased max carry for hives.

I like your suggestions,but i already know the answers.

1)Slayer logistics QQ
-truth be told logistics is about 100x more valuable than assaults so instead of trying to make assaults more appealing with fair and balanced changes,they'd rather black logistics eye an knock out a few teeth to make assaults look better by comparison.
-will never happen because logistics isn't favored like assaults

2)You forgot +1 equipment at basic.
-cal logistics actually have the same equipment as the cal scout,yet it cost the logistics base stats and a weapon.
-will be ignored because logistics isn't favored like assaults

3)Or give half bonuses to all equipment,and 100% to racial.
-This way any logistics will be better with any equipment than any other suit.
-will be ignored because logistics isn't favored like assaults,or even worse it'll be so half-assed it becomes too confusing to deal with

4)This should be obvious seeing as a PRO rep tool can't outrep a BASIC weapon.
-Full PRO equipment is almost if not more expensive as a full PRO weapon (old variation prices).
-So logistics has to foot the bill for a weapon and equipment as expensive as a main weapon,not sidearm,main...logistics aren't commandos FFS so these costs make 0 sense.
-will be ignored because logistics isn't favored like assaults,and CCP thinks it's fine that the easiest killed suit in the game also happens to be the most expensive (which just so happens to defy any normal or rational gaming logic)

5)The one and only tooth left in logistics badly beaten head are the rep tools.
-Scanners got insane cooldowns,uplinks got insane uptimes and low spawns,nanos received a dramatic cluster reduction without improved performance,and yes even rep tools were nerfed in range and rep amount.
-Well,there was one equipment that was buffed,the injector,but only after assault users said they use it...
It wasn't buffed for logistics it was buffed for assaults,sad isn't it?
-As long as logistics out shines assaults at anything (even their own role ) you can expect CCP to nerf that too,so i fully expect some imbecile with access to will do exactly that...if not sooner then later

Assaults are so favored they can get equipment buffed on a whim.

And players complain there aren't enough medics on the field.(because CCP ignores the actual medics and listens to the WP whores)

Here's a short summary from what i've seen.
-logistics with it's lower eHP will still be slower than heavier tanked assaults.
-Although stamina will be higher.
-A PRO BP can still OHK any logistics.

-an omnisoldier (shayz) suggested nerfing equipment by reducing its output but increasing its carried amount for all classes
As a logistics purist i can easily see it as what it is,a horrible equipment destroying nerf disguised as a 'spam' solution.
"Need 2 grenades? Let me throw down 2 hives." (one for each grenade)
Cross is actually considering this nerf in the OP as a "good" thing for logistics,but it's actually a stealth buff for assaults.

-multiple 'add a capacitor to rep tools' threads have popped up.
These are from the same players that complained logistics were using their gun too much,and should be repping instead.
Now that logistics is repping,they're mad about that,saying logistics takes no 'skill' and should have to shoot every now and then.
Cross has apparently caved in to the whiny brats because he put forth an idea for a capacitor for rep tools,even though weapons can do 400% more damage than a tool can repair per second.

-assaults are still the biggest drama queens to play the game,and still get catered to hand and foot. (surprise surprise...)
These are the players that most often complain about BW and rep tool activation length.

-logistics will still not be getting that well deserved equipment cost reduction.
PRO equipment still pales in effect compared to basic weapons,yet costs say otherwise.

[sarcasm] I wish you had to get a players permission to OHK them with KN like you have to with injectors amirite? [/sarcasm]

-IMHO the recent changes to scanners could be seen as a buff.
Keeping the little arrow is actually pretty significant.

-Players are still trying to strip the Amarr logistics of its sidearm.
They say 'buff' it's actually a hard nerf.

-Nonlogistics users keep suggesting things that sound good in their own heads,but would actually be bad for logistics as a whole.
See all the logistics based suggestions not posted ITT.
(They're afraid of Meee!)


That's about all i've seen.

I've virtually quit using anything but my BPO or STD suits. It's just not worth bringing my a 223k proto suit or even my 83k advanced suit when I'm two shotted by a militia bolt pistol. And it's not even the weakness or the money that bothers me. It's the weakness + the money + the utter lack of value it gives me. I find that I perform pretty much the same with lower tier items with a better payout than I do with my more expensive suits.

I'm not poor and I'm not rich. When I get a great squad who takes care of me, I'll throw that money down like nobody's business. Those guys took care of me, so hell yeah I'm going to bring out the Wyrikomi needles and Six Kin Rep tools and go negative this match.

But I think I'm not an exception. I think most all skilled out logis out there have this same experience where it's just not worthwhile to pull out, period. I get flak all the time for not bringing out my best hives, my best rep tool and my best needle to every game.

But all that PRO EQ 57,015 ISK (Not to mention the +57,690 ISK just for a suit that can fit the requirements)...

114,705 ISK (without any other mods) =/= automatically better performance for myself OR the team.

There is no real incentive for me to want to use that more expensive gear when I have consistent proof that it doesn't actually DO better. And with BW even the number laid is not an advantage but a worrisome detriment without a BW meter.

- "Better rep tools mean you turn a BB OP against incoming fire" - you've clearly never used a repair tool before

- "Better injectors mean I can pick someone up to get immediately back in the fight" - so does my dirty bpo needle, because I don't pick someone up when a threat still exists.

- "Better nanohives mean we don't have to depend on a supply depot" - actually it just means we both have to depend on a supply depot. My hives don't give you enough ammo to survive another war. It's enough to give you just a few clips (maybe one depending on how many of you there are) to survive to get to a depot. And when I'm out of hives we ALL get to travel to the supply depot so you can get more ammo and I can get more 'oh **** we're all out of ammo' ammo.

-"Better uplinks mean" - nothing. Literally nothing. I've yet to see where 2-3 seconds meant the turn of a battle in anything except PC. The reality is, seconds mean nothing. Placement means something. Coordination means something. 5-8 people all spawning on one uplink and taking a point by storm in mass is what makes uplinks valuable. Hell if anything, I've had my 7 second uplinks still last 15 due to all the server issues we're having.

Until my EQ is made at all valuable, I fail to see what use it lends for me to bring it into the game.

The main problem IMHO is that everyone ties 'wp whores','spammers' and 'logistics' together.

Yet equipment is to blame.

For example:
-let's say a merc has 1000 armor
-and a tool has 100 hp/s reps (rounded for easy math)

That's 10 ticks worth of WP.
And it's actually a low amount vs weapon DPS.

What if a tool had 200?

That's 5 ticks.
Effectively cutting 'wp whoring' in half.

If tools were buffed at all levels by x2 it would aid new players be relevant,older players support well,and allies survive longer.
While scaling WP to accomidate this new change.

Currently you can almost reach ADV tools reps with suit modules alone,and you can breeze pass Basic,that's insane and removes the need for external support.

And Pro costs too much to run consecutively.

So logistics can choose to be screwed over 1 of 2 ways,have a garbage tool or have an expensive tool.

Newer logistics can't foot that kind of bill all the time.

---

My solution to spam?

Increase the cluster amount of hives by x4-5,and amount refilled to 50% at basic,75% at ADV and up to 90% at Pro.
Increase amount repped by triage hives by 50-60 hp/s.
Straight up double hybrids refill rate,minimum.
Increase carried amount by 5. (10 works too )
Then cut the amount deployed by 1.

Then,add a Cal logistics exclusive of +1 deployed hive.

All logistics would have effective hives,but Cal logistics could deploy more of them and rival the other logistics in value.(Nanite + refill bonuses would stack.)

I actually like shayz' idea about uplinks.

All increases should be given through logistics exclusive bonuses ,of course.

What if triage points were only rewarded once the armor hits 100%? Like the opposite of a kill.

HUGE pet peeve of mine. I get punished for my 100% revives via warpoints. Less WP vs the Proto version, and less WP because I don't bust out the rep tool to top them off. Load of BS.

I guess what I am trying to say, is that we need a point of diminishing returns in regards to WP from rep tools. I do not want them to cease in functioning via a capacitor. That would be a huge nerf to logis. It's the WP whoring we're trying to cure.

Starting off with +25, and falling as low as 5WP before it cuts off is more of what I am looking for.

Good Stuff

I leave you guys alone for one minute (well, okay, a good sight longer than that, blame work and look what I come back too!
...constructive discussion... am I still on the Dust boards? You LogiBros do my heart good

o7
Cross

Are you sure that all Logis had a built in modifier? I was under the impression that all suits were at zero, and the Logi with skill bonus went up to a 1.25 modifier? Most drop suits have a built in hack modifier after 1.8 except 3 of the Assaults and all Heavy Frames. Kind of like they added native armor reps to all suits in 1.9.

I can't find any spreadsheet on the old stats, and you could be correct. That would have meant the Min Logi hacked even faster than the Min Scout does today though.

Any changes to logis since i have been gone?. I stopped playing about 3 weeks before the new maps came.

Open Beta logi with maxed EQ here.

My view on the reptool: I don't like leaching a heavy/slayer 24/7. I think it's ok for intense engagements, but running behind a heavy just not to miss those 35+ Guardian points is just meh... (i think that should be lowered to +25 like kill assists)

I would like to see a overheat on the reptool with the following changes.

The reptool overheats if latched on for extended periods. Overheating increases cooldown.

Standard cooldown 3 sec. Overheat cooldown 10 sec.

Having a seized reptool in hand prevents switching to a weapon, like with overheated weapons.

Time to overheat on a core focused may be around a minute, so that you can have a longer engagement but not perma leash.

The reptool will give higher output (+25%) when heated up (after two thirds of it's heating cycle)

The reptool will overheat slower in lower tiers, since you need quite some time to rep anything with the basic ones.

High tier reptools would have a much shorter cooldown. They overheat faster, but they also recover pretty much instantly (3 sec at proto).

Wp should not be attached to the repping cycle, but the amount of reps given.

To make life for Logis easier, make a quickdraw EQ slot, which can be chosen with the weapon swap button. This would make it much easier for logis to switch from weapon to reptool and vice versa.

Give the Amarr the possibility to put EQ in his sidearm slot.

Give the Caldari either a combined sidearm/EQ slot or one more EQ slot.

Apart from that, I'd like to see more speed for the logis, since they need to run around much more than point defenders to either drop EQ in different locations or run to the depot to resupply. Logis need to be at least as fast as Assaults, to be able to move with a slayer squad.

What has been said about a general EQ buff for logis, I agree upon. EQ should only shine on logis, not on the other suits.

I would also like to see racial reptool variants, like tools with resistances, shield tools and combined shield/armour tools.


Make a special Stealth Uplink useful to Scouts, that has insane fast spawn times (2sec), but only 5 spawns on it and a very low scan profile (not detectable by a Gallogi). It would be 3 carried but only one active at a time. It would be nice if this link was given a fitting bonus on scouts like the cloak has. This would help in reducing the Scout QQ which I'm tired of.

First things first, a tech issue. I do not see diminishing returns as being at all likely from a coding standpoint.
Could it be done? Sure.
Would it be done in light of the resource cost (in game/match) to implement it? Almost certainly not.
Now, I am not a CCP programer and I could simply be mistaken but from other features I have seen discussed and dismissed (scaled WP for injectors based on total HP restored for example) I do not think we will see it in game.

Independent of that there are a couple of issues to address.
1. If Logi income is to be balanced including kills/kill assists as part of the baseline then logi combat ability needs to be balanced with the ability to get kills (and survive in the contexts to do so) as part of the baseline as well (I do not believe this is the current condition of the frame).
2. If Reps are to be brought down in value to normalize them with other support actions to force players to spend less time repping then that contains an implicit assumption that logi earnings are improperly high. Otherwise the proper course would be to raise the other rewards to the level of reps. I cannot fully support the notion that logi rewards should be diminished unless/until playing logi throughout an entire match is not so frequently a losing (ISK) prospect.

Conceptually I am adamantly opposed to building the game such that proper tactical behavior is not rewarded.
There are times when this will be needed due to exploits but I am not a fan of things like caps and cooldowns on earnings for actions. Should there be a cool down or cap on the earnings from kills or assists? I can see a real slayer staying and doing the job needed even if they are not getting as many WP as before (but does that make it a good move?)

To be clear, I spend more of my support play time deploying links and hives in key areas than I do repping so the recent changes to BW (which I supported) have had more of an impact on my earnings than a rep tool change would. But these changes cannot be made based on any one of our personal play styles or preferences. We need solid game or role level concepts to recommend a change.

0.02 ISK
Cross

As long as repair tools have a nearly 400% loss vs weapons,i'll fight cooldowns tooth and nail.

However,a warm up mechanism would be interesting.

The more you repair,the better you repair.
If you stop you slowly cooldown to a low repair rate.(the starting rate)

Well,that's the problem.

First you have to define logistics.
I always thought logistics were techsperts.

Sacrificing physical force (eHP speed and stamina),for the ability to be the best at external support (think stereotype nerd,weak physically,strong mentally),multiplying the force presented by other units.

Which would mean logistics should have the best eWAR (range and precision),and hacking right?
While scouts would have the best dampening.(they are described as being sneaky and compact,not eWAR based)

Well there's the problem.
Logistics isn't good at eWAR,and logistics is only moderately faster at hacking.

Logistics is currently good at only 1 thing,being an equipment mule,and while worth it in theory that in no way aids in survival like eWAR would.

So until CCP decides to give logistics a defined survival mechanism through methods that are already sacrificed for, pondering equipment to attach to the broken suit is a bad idea,as it allows for distraction from the #1 problem,the suit itself.

Think assault level buff in regards to eWAR and external support for logistics,that would do it.
And seeing as logistics and assaults are supposed to make up the bulk of all suits in combat,while scouts are supposed to be niche,it makes sense to buff them in a similar fashion.

But as to your questions.
I have no idea.

TBH i'm picturing different shapes,but essentially the same functions (like rifles).
But this is only because CCP hasn't even given us an inch in regards to the possibility.

I do however see a scanlink,you place it,you press the fire button it sends out a 'ping' and scans.
Limited amount carried,limited amount of scans,refilled at the supply depot.

And it would make repairing installations and vehicles worth it.
And can add chances for other logis to get bonuses.
For example:
-Min gets a starting advantage (rep amount)
-Amarr gets a heat increase to top out faster,seeing as it is their native tech
-Gal gets a heat rep rate multiplier so they end up repping the most
-Cal gets a reduction to the cooldown so they can maintain higher rep rates during combat lulls

That's if shield and hybrid tools aren't added of course,then it allows for a whole more host of bonuses.

Tbh,Gal logis have 0 other options.

Gal have 0 other equipment that their logi can be good with.
So i would have 0 other suggestions regarding a replacement,unless CCP lets us know possible options.

But as for scouts getting to be better with equipment than a logistics...the answer is a resounding NO!
Besides that,it's Gal tech why would Amarr be better with it?

Plus scouts are supposed to be niche anyway.
Used as a last resort,just read their description FFS it basically sums up to "assault with dampening instead of eHP meant to sneak by enemies".

Consider the following as well,each scanner takes 15-30 seconds,with 4 you sacrifice a lot of possible WP through lost equipment.
As well as leaving yourself without aid through hives and idle through cooldown timers.

It's actually a pretty bad sacrifice IMO.

I don't run scouts,but wouldn't a bonus to cardiac regs be more in-line with its current bonuses?
Run in,reveal enemies,run out or around them.
It would overcome its weakness with oodles of stamina.

------
To address your question specifically...
There's obviously only 1 valid replacement,repair rate on the repair tool.

If CCP adds different repair tools,shield(blue),hybrid(blue and gold),to go along with the armor (gold) one we currently have.(just change beam colors)
That's when you get the chance to replace it with a worthwhile bonus.

Armor repair tool:
-Amarr would have the longest range
-Gal would have the highest repair rate

Shields:
-Cal would have the longest range
-Min would have the highest repair rate

-or-

Shields:
-Cal would have the highest repair rate and longest range

Hybrid (1/2 as effective as the others):
-Min would have the highest repair rate and longest range.

But as it currently stands i'd say there isn't really a fair bonus to offer for poking their eyes out.

Before that can happen CCP needs to decide what it's 'core' is going to be.
The first suits newer players will be driven to get in to.

Mediums?
Assault + Logistics?

Then define those two (combat vs support),and balance appropriately.

And after those suits are balanced,then do the other more niche roles.

By balancing their core suits properly they can balance the fringe suits easier.

For example:
Assaults are good for eHP,sents are better,but worse for speed.

Logistics is good for eWAR and hacking,but scouts are good at evasion and sabotage (also hacking) via stealth,but worse for eWAR.

Fringe suits would be for very specific purposes.
While core suits would be for generalist purposes.

Core as in suits CCP wants players to use over 90% of the time,not basics.

Basics are terrible to force players into specialist suit.

If CCP wants 90% of the suits to be assaults and logistics,they need to balance around that idea.

Well,if my ability to rep gets reduced via overheat.

My shooting time increases because of overheat.

I personally picked logistics so thay my shooting responsibilities would be minimal,and yet players want to reduce my supporting ability?
Lolno

Mad is saying he wants an overheat to add skill and he's bored.
All he has to do is stop repping and shoot,but as rep tools are infinite he wouldn't have a valid excuse to give squad mates.

So instead of being candid with his crew he comes here to try to have an excuse made for him.
It's terribly childish,and i can see through it easily.

He doesn't want to be a logistics,he wants to be an assault with more than 1 equipment slot.

Wasn't the Slayer GalLogi at some point as equally bad as the Slayer CalLogi? I recall Nyain San switching from 6 of one to 6 of the other, but I don't recall which was FoTM first. All long ago, of course; Slayer Logis have been dead for quite some time (barring that "Vagheitan" guy from AE).

I don't know that this is a reasonable premise, Gyn Wallace. Running around in a 400HP Scout Suit is not a low risk activity; it is certainly more risky than using an Active Scanner while embedded among friendlies.

1. Running around in a 400HP Scout Suit is not a low risk activity.

2. it is certainly more risky than using an Active Scanner while embedded among friendlies.

Yes, they can.

More is required of the MinScout, as it must run a proto suit, fill all of its lows with complex damps, and be proto cloaked to beat all scans. This requirement was argued as "reasonable" before cloak-blind, decloak-delay, falloff, and scout armor/strafe penalty were introduced.

If it was a "reasonable" requirement then, it certainly is not now.

I believe it appropriate to lessen pressure on today's post-nerf, post-falloff MinScouts by 1 slot. If adjustments to GalLogi scans are off-the-table, this goal could be reached through alternative means. For instance, changing cloak's active damp bonus from 0-5-10 to 10-15-25 would accomplish the same; specifically, MN/AM Scouts would then beat 15dB scans at 2 cmp damps + proto cloak (instead of 3 cmp damps + proto cloak) and GA/CA Scouts at 2 cmp damps + basic cloak (instead of 2 cmp damps + proto cloak).

That said, adjustments to GalLogi active scans may prove in the end to be the better path. GalLogi scans aren't just "OP" against MinScouts; these scans also negate any/all value of running damps on any suit other the Scout. Thankfully, balance calls aren't mine to make.

Logi base scan range was increased to 25m when Falloff was introduced. This is the highest of all classes. Your proposal appears to reflect old values.

You also propose changing Precision from 45 dB to 35 dB; this would playout as follows:

Scan Precision (5) - 16 / 32 / 41 dB
Cmp Precision (x1) - 13 / 25 / 33 dB
Cmp Precision (x2) - 10 / 21 / 27 dB
Cmp Precision (x3) - 9 / 18 / 24 dB

Ranges: 8m / 19m / 38m

---

"Role bleed" comes to mind (among other things). But that's a conversation for another day.

Here is a merc (RedBleach) who wants to better understand EWAR, EWAR balance, and perspectives of EWAR units opposite his role. As his proposal includes significant EWAR changes, does it not stand to reason that he might benefit from new found knowledge?

"No knowledge is to be despised."
- Joseph Needham

Overheat is a flat NO I agree.
I like your idea with the capacitor, but I think it should be introduced as a variant at each level and see how it works in realtime vs what we envision. You know how things tend to get jumbled up when introduced. That way tweaks can be made until it is right. I would like to see it at about 225 reps per second at Proto. A little more than half of the sustained DPS of a basic assault rifle.

I understand your not wanting more diminishing returns in WP for repairing, Right now there is a hard cap set (I don't remember what it is ). I suggested the diminishing returns as an alternative to a hard cap so we still receive points for repairing the whole time. I have changed my suggestion of stopping at 0.

Examples numbers are negotiable.

1min 25 points
2min 20 points
3min 10 points
4min 5 points
5min or longer 1point.

The hard drop between 2 and 3 minutes is to encourage releasing the lock when not in direct combat. To reset the timer, lock on should be dropped for 5 (maybe longer) seconds, to force a release. This should stop the release and quickly re-lock to reset WP acquisition. Forcing you to stop repairing for an extended time if you want better WPs, not just keep going and resetting every time your target is hit or they kill someone.

I also believe that Guardian points should be dropped to 25 the same as an assist and should follow the same diminishing returns as the repair tool.

...You reduced scan accuracy and stamina,as well as stamina pool,for 10%on scan radius? Lol no

I actually prefer cross',i'll survive longer.

I don't know how to feel about that.
Happy that logistics are buffed?
Sad that the buffs are low?

I'll go with happy i spose' that stamina will come in useful.

Quick note about the "counter" to "scouts" in scanning-

1. More than 1 scout frame is able, while properly modded, to defeat scans entirely. That is to say, able to beat all scanners all the time outright.

2. More than one scout frame is enabled when scanned to know that they've been scanned via a nice fat warning message on their screen that says, " You have been SCANNED". SO, when they've been scanned they can change what or how they're doing what they're doing before failing or being killed.

3. This terribly OP uberscanner that wreaks devastation across all games and modes and eviscerated a whole genre of gameplay here has the shortest lightup time (10-15 seconds) the narrowest arc (~45-¦) and the shortest range (100m). (not in front of a stat spreadsheet so figures may be a little off, but those are the gist of them) Even fully loaded with 4 of these things the top suit (GalLogi) for using them is still only able to scan those narrow arcs for those short periods. AND SCOUTS CAN STILL BEAT IT.

4. STEALTH, like any other weapon we have in here is open to everyone, ANY suit can be used to lurk n beast. Scout frames, by design are the most powerful in this regard. And among the scout class certain frames are better than others in more conditions for it. Kind of like our Uplinks, anyone w/eq can carry them, anyone w/eq can pitch them BUT if you want the fastest possible links out then you'll need to use the AmarrLogi. A slow, cumbersome logi not particularly well-suited out of the box for link running, btw.
ALL scouts are more than stealthy as hell vs. all other frames. AND they can mod the fit so that they outright defeat their counter, the "OP" Proto GalLogi Proto Active Scans.

The GalLogi bonusing, Cocentric Falloff AND Cloak stats ALL cumulatively create a SUM total of something resembling balance between Scout frames and all others. Scouts refused to tolerate other outright stat nerfs that were proposed to balance their OP bs, suggestions like going single equipment, going sidearm only, being made slightly slower, having outright fitting restrictions on hp mods etc. So, instead, the suite of tweaks that occurred were created and applied, scout OPness came down a notch and overall balance became better. NOW the effort to try and rollback the balancing is afoot and trying to interject itself here because we're on deck for buffs so a patch or fix will happen that could be an opportunity for scouts to regain their utterly dominant position among frames overall.

**** THAT ****, I say.




BTW, had a DOM match vs Mr.GoBang there last Monday. I spent the whole match scanning him, his club and his team. He ultimately sg'd me twice (from his Cal std bpo), went 10-3 on the leaderboard and his team won the match. Thos uber OP GalLogi scans didn't kill him, didn't unhack anything, didn't freeze him in place or make him totally defenseless (he still had his speed, his tank, his gank and his wit) and didn't drop an OB on him.
In PC we see scouts, full pro no halfassing it scouts, all the time. They are game changers and playmakers (as they should be) AND they defeat scanners ALL the time, hiding on catwalks raining re's, spamming their own scanners , dropping links, running-and-gunning, ripping off speed hacks left and right etc so this crap about scans being too OP is exactly that: crap.

If ain't broke, don't fix it.
Mind the dates on posts and their relative timing to subsequent fixes and patches.
Just because this thread has required us keeping it alive does not warrant it becoming the scoutbuffideaspitballing room.
The buffs that Logis are due can be done without undoing the general balance we currently have, provided we don't allow the interjection of the unneccessary. Current overall balance being largely agreed upon as good as has been seen in a loooong time. We get our buffs and truthfully, IMO, CCP will be able to focus less on this constant frame-balancing situation and more on generating new content . New vehicles, new weapons, new maps, new modes, new frames etc etc etc The dog and pony show has to stop somewhere.

Don't forget to play the game too. Data analytics is fun and all but its really all about the game.

Which is why ADV needs 2 as well.

No other class is forced into Pro gear for such dramatic performance increase.


But i just thought of possible bonuses for the repair tool for the other races.

Min-High rep amount (Current)
Amarr- Armor Damage resistance
Cal-Shield damage resistance
Gal-increased weapons efficiency (slower heat build up,faster reload,lower kick,etc.)

Since nanites run the world,why not have the individual logistics be able to focus them towards additional functions.
With this it becomes more desired to have more logistics,rather than just Min.

I hate to be the DebbiDowner on this one but truth be told if dualbeaming filters down into the adv eq group then a restructuring of WP accrual for repping would absolutely need to be rewritten. Enabling duals on the lower rate/rep beam units will just create even more payout/WPWhoring by tourist users, since they'll be able to dirty needle and scab-rep not one poor sucker at a time but two . DualBeam is a PRO level feature best reserved for individuals willing to pay the price to give their team that best possible level of support dualing creates.

I'd actually like to see us NOT tinker too much right now with the actual individual equipment stats/interplay outside of whats been proposed about use/replenishment already, focus on getting solid suit buffs in, the bonus spread handled then some gametime/playtesting with the new stats then, if neccessary we open Pandoras Box of Cans of Worms and start sifting through equipment stats. More than anything else because eq now is pretty well established, so in the overall equation of gamebalance keeping it a "constant" allows us to more precisely define what we will be redefining as "variables" with a better final result. The more things we change all at once the exponentially higher the odds of creating major imbalances that in fixing cost us other gains we may make. Kinda like Adipem in here, sour his class lost advantages they had and should have kept but lost because they weren't willing to KISS.

As an alternative Gal bonus how about module efficiency?
They would then increase the efficiency of modules already present on the suit,aiding in survival.

I'm just going to take a run at the last page or so, there's new input in-


HP- This a given (evidently), we need more, agreed.

Sidearms- Leave my AmLogi alone and give one to my Cal. And cpu for that Cal, btw.

Slot Parity- I'm still a no on this, IMO slot differences between Logi and Assault frames reinforce not just the differences in the suits' roles but also in their fitting needs. Which is a good thing.

Capacitors- **** no. Never. We already have Bandwidth which limits how much eq we can use at once, as well as fixed nanite counts which limit the output of hives AND hard cooldowns after use for our active equipment. For ex. even if I don't scan an area for the entire time that I could (snapshot) my scanner still becomes inactive and cools for the full cooldown period. This is functionally superior to gameplay than a capacitor system that would allow me to "pepper" an area with "snapshot scans" almost ceaslessly but for the momentary gap in between while the capacitor "recharges" or having a "capacitor" fueled bottomless well to spam CoreNades from.

Bandwidth Avail Meter Visibility- Totally overdue, belongs in the HUD. That it wasn't included in some fashion at the point of BW rollout speaks volumes about the lack of full idea vetting at the development level. Not to crack too hard on Ratt/CCP, but wtf ppl? How did you not realize the need for that AND after posting the idea and the deployment intent how did you ignore the droves of players that pointed out the need for one? Bandwidth in general never should have been released without it.

I think thats it, flame away!

I honestly do not know what you are saying here, please elaborate because there is clearly a breakdown in communication somewhere (quite possibly on my end).


More HP, or at least eHP is unequivocally required in my studied view. I very much doubt there is a proposal for a rework that could be viable and not include this.

Yah the posted links are on the dated side now.

/puts it on the "To-Do" list