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el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 271	Posted - 2014.08.13 19:49:00 - [1] - Quote Been watching this thread, haven't been able to post. Kinda glad too since now that Charlie has deployed I can "run through the numbers" and see where specifically I think we could use tweaks. That being said, I do have a couple of things which are Charlie notwithstanding: oh, first, MinLogi since open beta, primarily PC last couple months tho the last couple weeks have been quiet-ish. Okay, a couple things too help the logistics class as a whole- 1. The infamous Sprint Glitch has to get fixed. Now that Shayz has posted his vid this'll happen hopefully, it can not be understated the impact this glitch has on our class since constant movement is a fundamental for us and if any class is cycling equipment its the logi. 2. Scouts need to lose that second equipment slot. I know, you all hate me now. I'm sorry. I hate myself for being the one to say it. But has to be said. Light frames moving ultra fast, tanking HP and by profile being undetectable outside of their class unless major accommodations are made should NOT be additionally empowered to cloak AND uplinkspam/rep/revive/re. To do the sort of forward position recon/inside insertion establishment (SCOUTING) they are for their base stats with pg/cpu accomodation for ONE equipment is enough. You are plenty stealthy, and extremely lethal. The second slot just feeds the abuses others document in previous comments/other threads. I <3 you, actual scouts. 3. (riot time) Logistics class should be a level 5 Dropsuit Command unlock. That's right. Drop suit Command to level 5 before accessing Logi frames. For a long time now the logistics class has been inundated by tourists. Individuals who maybe started a character, learned enough to recognize the WP/SP relationship to progression who then undertake the role SOLELY in a point farming capacity to speed their own progression into w/e FOTM they actually want. THESE are the mil needle/rep farmers. These are the HIV next to the supply depot farmers. These are the largely ignorant/disinterested "logis" running around bricktanked spamming what little equipment they can carry after their 0 coreskill investment HP load allows, slaying. Make the role and the class of LOGISTICS a dedicated decision whose impact on the field is reflective of its users' having entered intentionally, not as a peripheral, not as a WP farm stepstone. This will also help w/ players without some of the fundamental gameplay knowledge or experience entering the class, being silly on the field and then ridiculous on the forums. 4-? We need movement buffs, walking and rotation speed. Something HP/regen side, personally I'm more a fan of less HP boost, more regen but that's me and my style. I don't think bonuses need a huge amount of revamping, I like Appia's expansion on the bonusing tho. It keeps the existing bonuses and structure we have while expanding the individual equipment bonuses across the class. and I would frikin' love to have a light weapon AND a sidearm. But, I want to actually play in Charlie before requesting too much after 1-3. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 272	Posted - 2014.08.13 20:11:00 - [2] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: However at the moment the difference between a rep logi and a great rep logi is being in squad and saying "By the Power of GraySkull! [insert name] has the POWER!!!". FTFY Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 272	Posted - 2014.08.13 20:35:00 - [3] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: So, the title asks for logi and support feedback, yet all people talks about is logistic dropsuits and Scout suits. Bummer, as vehicles do exist,and in some form or another they are support tools, really mainly support tools. Yet they've been turned into a bloody ******* mess. Yes, this is primarily discussing Logi suits and Charlie. If you have vehicle perspectived input within a support context (maybe you like the idea of reppers doing higher repair values on your hull) bring it on in. If your contribution is outside the discussion context, we'll let you know. Civilly. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 273	Posted - 2014.08.13 23:34:00 - [4] - Quote wtf is this **** I'm reading about the Charlie update that the Amarr Logi lost its sidearm? I thought the patch notes had that being left for Delta? Is Wayne Brady gonna have to punch a support ticket?? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 280	Posted - 2014.08.25 04:03:00 - [5] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: oh, first, MinLogi since open beta, primarily PC last couple months tho the last couple weeks have been quiet-ish. Okay, a couple things to help the logistics class as a whole- 1. The infamous Sprint Glitch has to get fixed... 2. Scouts need to lose that second equipment slot... 3. Logistics class should be a level 5 Dropsuit Command unlock... 4-? We need movement buffs, walking and rotation speed. Something HP/regen side... But, I want to actually play in Charlie before requesting too much after 1-3. Yup, this is where I'm at, from what I've seen of Charlie. I think #4 really is the key, after the previous 3 being addressed, to closing the balance between the frames. Simple movement buffs, to walking and rotation speeds with regen buffs on the limited side for straight hp (maybe 50-70 pts spread shield/armor based on race lore) but very dynamic on the regen delay side, prompting limited tanking with short delay accomodating cover to cover movement and limited (though substantially better than now) sustainability through the sort of massive barrages supported squads attract. Suits that don't currently enjoy inherent reps maybe still get a bonus (perhaps even the fastest of the bonuses) to delay but obviously need to equip the appropriate module to use it. Additionally, buffs could be tangible through -lowering our inherent profile base below assault base, sp investments into prec/damp will make detection/stealth possible between them -redefining the individual equipment values, carried/deployed etc. as others have suggested -redefining the individual equipment/racial bonuses as others have suggested -redefining the logis hitbox as others have suggested. -recoloring the frame, again, as others have suggested (I like plaid) -fitting/pricing of individual equipment redefining, as others have suggested Any/all of these or adjustments along these lines would be good I think. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 280	Posted - 2014.08.25 17:52:00 - [6] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Yup, because I don't like scouts acting like slayerlogis, so please, tweak my logis base stats into something in-between an assault and a scout, since we're expected to competitively interact with both.~~Brilliant~~. Basic. EZ. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 280	Posted - 2014.08.25 18:17:00 - [7] - Quote Meee One wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Yup, because I don't like scouts acting like logis, so please, turn my logi into a scout. Brilliant! FTFY. But seriously,what else is there? TBH i believe assaults got the wrong kind of buff (eHP). All the assault suit descriptions say they should have damage resistance. If assaults get eHP,all that's left is speed and regen. If we straight up copy assaults nothing will have improved. By making logistics more scout-like focusing on evasion and stealth it leaves open combat for the combat oriented suits,while logistics can (like scouts) work in the shadows. So,durable suits such as heavies and assaults can't hide. But frail suits like logistics and scouts can and escape.(non brick scouts that is) From personal experience i can say i've survived 10x longer when i ran to regroup as when i tried to fight. Unfortunately being slower with less eHP,and being easy to hit doesn't help with those times. Yeeeeup. We go outside of these parameters we start "weaponizing" logis and the whole slayerlogi crap swings back to the forefront. After that theres really just the more esoteric stuff like.....RDV priority when calling vehicles or maybe quickspawn bonusing or maybe bonuses to nanite speed from hives so we rep/resupply from them faster. All things that aren't really "logi" oriented and would be (justifiably in some cases) easily claimed by other roles. How much QQ was there for us having the cloak equip bonus because, "the cloak is for scouts". Nevermind the beauty in having your heavy get dropped, activating the cloak, being passed by the assaulting squad, reviving that heavy and reaming that group out. We don't need a ton of work, just contemporizing. A couple of effective glitch/imbalance fixes are almost buffs for us. After those, actual buffs to our movement speeds, a little (real small amount) extra hp, and reallowing us regen and I think we'd be there. Or we can start discussing the merits of giving us all our sidearms back and bonusing us for REs. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 281	Posted - 2014.08.25 21:47:00 - [8] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Ok, we now have four groups. 1) Make logis scouts. (We already have scouts in this game thank you.) 2) Make logis heavies. (Again, we have those, but I like it better since it fits my playstyle since I live 20-30 meters behind the front lines or depending on the situation, on the frontlines) 3) Change the equipment and/or the bonuses (getting closer, since now we are focusing on what should make a logi unique on the battle field) 4) Keep the logis in their place and nerf them further. Slayer logi, never again. (Unless Rattati and the CPMs that still play the game have all recently drunk the lead filled kool aid then slayer logis will never happen again, so stop bitching about it.) Everything parentheses is obviously opinion. Keep tossing out ideas but make sure logis wind up unique and not just(insert class) light. Notice I said "CPMs that still play the game" I would like to propose that CPMs that have logged less than 5 hours in the past 3 months get their tags removed or at least have their vote taken away until they are back up to speed and know the current situation of the game. Side note I know. Where is #1 being generated from? My suggestions? Because we have plenty of leeway to adjust our movement/regen base without cramping onto scouts, just like their having 1 equipment doesnt cramp logi'ing but having 2 does. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 281	Posted - 2014.08.26 00:04:00 - [9] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Where is #1 being generated from? My suggestions? Because we have plenty of leeway to adjust our movement/regen base without cramping onto scouts, just like their having 1 equipment doesnt cramp logi'ing but having 2 does. Where I am getting #1 is reductio ad absurdum of your comments yeah, however I could be down for logis being a bit better at e-war and have some more speed, but for the most part the suit itself is fine (cal could use a slight shield buff maybe), though it's the equipment and bonuses that will set logis apart, otherwise we are only homogenizing the classes. Reductio ad absurdum, indeed. Lets not get lost in semantics, hm? The (logi)suits are real close to being just right. We need to be faster, universally. We need to be capable of absorbing, for a period of time, the conditions we are most often in. And we need to be unique enough that while other suits may be able to emulate some of what we do, NONE is able to replicate, let alone be BETTER than us at what we do. We have to rely on squad support, and we return their support with OUR support. But whats the point in supporting us if a) we're a liability under the circumstances or b) some other suit just outperforms us at our roles? Base buffs should plant us right between current scouts and assaults. Not quite as fast, not quite as tanky and definitely not bonused to weapons but competitive within the bracket, and competitive on the field. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 282	Posted - 2014.08.26 18:50:00 - [10] - Quote There may also be opportunity (tech allowing) to run logi bonuses through modules, versus explicitly via equipment. For example, and please don't get racial-lore crazy on me this is just for example: Amarr logis get a (nonstacking) speed bonus to armor plates which offsets the plating speed reduction, allowing up-armoring with making that slug an even slower slug. OR Caldari logis get a (nonstacking) shield extender bonus to offset cpu/pg cost I realize this is very similar to our regen buffing convo, but these could be module specific bonuses, as opposed to outright base stat buffing (which must happen), and could allow creation of real unique variants across the class without overemphasis on which race gets which equipment bonuses. Coupled together, bonusing this way will allow creation of some very strong fits that still accomodate diverse uses and lessens instances of very strong fits that are total one-trick ponies coughslugAmarrLogiuplinkspamcough Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 282	Posted - 2014.08.26 19:05:00 - [11] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I'd like to see a Allotek Nanohive version in the LP store that would take more than one flux to kill. I'd be down with that, it'd go in the collection of rad LP gear like 100%needles, 3 second links and 90hp/sec dual-beams. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 282	Posted - 2014.08.27 17:29:00 - [12] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: The fastest spawns and the best rep tools? With your proposal you basically finish the job of making every logi suit but the Minmatar completely pointless and obsolete. I'm good with this. You don't want to know what I'm good with, matari. According to your signature link, Combat Rifles. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 285	Posted - 2014.08.28 05:08:00 - [13] - Quote Thought I'd said this earlier, but.... We have a ton of great ideas in here (Dropsuit Command to 5 for Logistics unlock is best IMO lol) but how much of this stuff is actually feasible/plausible/acceptable for technical reasons etc? Cross? Rattati? Which ones of these should we start... you know... getting all theorycraftcrazybelligerent over? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 285	Posted - 2014.08.28 06:59:00 - [14] - Quote Why I'm asking what so far are definite no's and which are definite maybes. So we can flame over the worthwhile and start the qq threads for the rest. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 285	Posted - 2014.08.29 08:16:00 - [15] - Quote Meee One wrote: (Gëº-ëGëª) Ok,back on track now. I'd like an update on the +1 deployable carried per level suggestion. Soon(tm) Where are you on Logistics requiring DS Command 5 for entry? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 07:18:00 - [16] - Quote From page 7: el OPERATOR wrote: 3. (riot time) Logistics class should be a level 5 Dropsuit Command unlock. That's right. Drop suit Command to level 5 before accessing Logi frames. For a long time now the logistics class has been inundated by tourists. Individuals who maybe started a character, learned enough to recognize the WP/SP relationship to progression who then undertake the role SOLELY in a point farming capacity to speed their own progression into w/e FOTM they actually want. THESE are the mil needle/rep farmers. These are the HIV next to the supply depot farmers. These are the largely ignorant/disinterested "logis" running around bricktanked spamming what little equipment they can carry after their 0 coreskill investment HP load allows, slaying. Make the role and the class of LOGISTICS a dedicated decision whose impact on the field is reflective of its users' having entered intentionally, not as a peripheral, not as a WP farm stepstone. This will also help w/ players without some of the fundamental gameplay knowledge or experience entering the class, being silly on the field and then ridiculous on the forums. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 17:06:00 - [17] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I think the only problem with the level 5 proposition is that it will keep new players from being a logi and the spam monkeys will just use scout suits instead. And thats the point. Keep full noobs with no real idea how to conduct themselves in battle out of logi frames so they instead will use their starters or other mediums to do basic "how-to" development. And the spammers will use their other frames also which limits their ability to spam, limiting the ill-effects of the spam like lag or worthless/detrimental placement and the subsequent ill reputation logis as a whole get from it. It could also keep some of the slayer oriented folks away, since it would not just be more effective battlefield-wise (from the bonuses) to use an assault(scout) to slay it'd be cheaper SP-wise. Granted, after a certain point a couple hundred thousand SP isn't a huge threshold for experienced players, whats that, a week or two of active play? BUT early on, when gaining and using SP is most important a couple hundred thousand extra to unlock the fit may be enough to deter those who aren't actually into running logistics from entering logistics and keep them in the other categories. Experienced players ideally would have a more well rounded idea of what goes on, a better reference as to what is expected of a logi and an easier time getting the SP to make the investment in the class. Thereby possibly increasing the quality of the logistics playerbase as a whole. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 17:26:00 - [18] - Quote Zindorak wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Zindorak wrote: Maybe give Am logi +1 to deployable links per level I'm fine with that, as long as you lose your sidearm and the max active for any link stays at 2. An Amarr Logi running around with 24 links would be very, very annoying. No I don't think you understand +1 max active per level is what i think we should get. Im willing to give up a sidearm I"m also a no, last thing we or anybody else needs is better spamming circumstances. And I am not willing to trade the sidearm for them. If the link placement you use is worth a **** you don't need to lay 7 of them at a time. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 17:42:00 - [19] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I think the only problem with the level 5 proposition is that it will keep new players from being a logi and the spam monkeys will just use scout suits instead. And thats the point. Keep full noobs with no real idea how to conduct themselves in battle out of logi frames so they instead will use their starters or other mediums to do basic "how-to" development. And the spammers will use their other frames also which limits their ability to spam, limiting the ill-effects of the spam like lag or worthless/detrimental placement and the subsequent ill reputation logis as a whole get from it. It could also keep some of the slayer oriented folks away, since it would not just be more effective battlefield-wise (from the bonuses) to use an assault(scout) to slay it'd be cheaper SP-wise. Granted, after a certain point a couple hundred thousand SP isn't a huge threshold for experienced players, whats that, a week or two of active play? BUT early on, when gaining and using SP is most important a couple hundred thousand extra to unlock the fit may be enough to deter those who aren't actually into running logistics from entering logistics and keep them in the other categories. Experienced players ideally would have a more well rounded idea of what goes on, a better reference as to what is expected of a logi and an easier time getting the SP to make the investment in the class. Thereby possibly increasing the quality of the logistics playerbase as a whole. this punishes those players who enjoy helping others and might deter them from going into the logi role when others are much easier to get into. this wont fix anything. infact it will further reduce the amount of logis on the field and with a higher minimum sp requirement than all other classes it will probably be the nail in the coffin. remember logis already have the highest sp requirements of all other suits due to equipment. adding more sp requirements just to get into logi is just a bad idea I think its the opposite actually, this ensures that those who are serious about helping and doing support are the ones who enter the class. And trading a small portion of the worthless logis to increase the in-battle value of worthwhile logis is a good rrade. We are built not just to provide support but also require support to be successful. Many, many players tho are slow or don't protect the logis because many too many "logis" are just spam/WP whoring idiots. The higher the entry bar, the higher the quality potential and more likely logis will be considered as deserving of the support they need to survive giving the support they provide. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 18:58:00 - [20] - Quote It doesn't tell them they must be killers, it tells them to take it seriously and tells those looking for the minimal investment with the maximum payout to look elsewhere. I also have been logistics from the start and have weathered every update, patch and hotfix since the open beta period day 1 when I started. Logistics right now is in a very good spot, provided a couple things for overall survivability are addressed. After those adjustments, raising the cost of entry will limit some of the abuse potential since the class will not be a dime a dozen. Spam is ABSOLUTELY the fault of the player. The PLAYER is in charge of his/her ACTIONS. Equipment doesn't spam itself. Have you ever been running your repper and suddenly had ALL of your uplinks, ammo hives and triage hives suddenly fly out of your inventory and pile emselves up at your feet in some worthless area (like immediately around a fkn supply depot), bro? This idea is less about "fixing the logis" and more about fixing the mindset. Theres a wealth of team support mechanisms with a huge potential, when used properly, to swing the results of a battle in DUST. That being the case, it makes sense that for those who claim to be serious about taking responsibility for that support put their SP where their mouths are and INVEST. In for the inch, in for the mile. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 19:44:00 - [21] - Quote I'm holding individuals responsible for their actions, you're applying culpability as responsibility to CCP. I'm able to drive over a child crossing the street in a crosswalk in my truck by virtue of it having been manufactured with a relatively higher frame height. When I do, is my fault for not looking/not caring or is it Fords fault for making a vehicle capable of running someone over? Sections of the map that are glitchable, which people exploit, is their exploitation of that their fault for knowing and exploiting its glitchable aspect or is it CCPs fault for their players exploiting said glitchable aspect? Our suit bonuses, agreed, can be exploited to contribute to spamming. Which is all the more reason to ensure that those people who have access to the bonuses don't have the access solely to exploit those bonuses! A significantly higher barrier to class entry is an extremely good method of screening these, since the SP involved WON'T be immediately recouped by the WP generated exploiting the fit for a possibly significant period of time. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 19:45:00 - [22] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: What is everyone's opinions on the buff to nanite injectors proposed for Delta? The same amount of shield replenished as armor? Sounds freaking awesome. Has that been posted somewhere as being a part of delta or is that forum ether theory? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 20:25:00 - [23] - Quote EDIT: I forgot to quote it, this is about SHAYZ's needle question Regardless of the answer to the question I like the idea, although I'm hesitant to fully endorse it considering its really a stealth buff to scouts, since they do tend to run shield heavy/armor light or full brick. My issue, which begins with my root issue of scouts and their multiple equipment slots, is we'll start having super scout slayer squads where even if one or two of them get dropped their buddies will cloak, revive them and when they pop up w full or almost full shields they'll just re-engage with little to no pullback for a shield regen period. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 20:35:00 - [24] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I'm holding individuals responsible for their actions, you're applying culpability as responsibility to CCP. I'm able to drive over a child crossing the street in a crosswalk in my truck by virtue of it having been manufactured with a relatively higher frame height. When I do, is my fault for not looking/not caring or is it Fords fault for making a vehicle capable of running someone over? Sections of the map that are glitchable, which people exploit, is their exploitation of that their fault for knowing and exploiting its glitchable aspect or is it CCPs fault for their players exploiting said glitchable aspect? Our suit bonuses, agreed, can be exploited to contribute to spamming. Which is all the more reason to ensure that those people who have access to the bonuses don't have the access solely to exploit those bonuses! A significantly higher barrier to class entry is an extremely good method of screening these, since the SP involved WON'T be immediately recouped by the WP generated exploiting the fit for a possibly significant period of time. if that crossing was a gated level crossing then the mechanic is in place to prevent you from exploiting your car's ability to run over people or in that case run into a train regardless of your personal input into your car. the same could be applied to equipment spam. if ccp prevented it then it won't happen. if a big heavy steel gate is in the way of you running that crossing then you are not running that crossing whether you want to or not. your comparing dropping equipment which is an intended mechanic with glitches and exploits which are not intended mechanics. the intended mechanic is there which allows spam and has been since the beginning of dust. if it was not intended it would be gone but just because its intended doesnt mean its a good mechanic. its a mechanic to be used. you cannot blame anyone for using intended mechanics right or wrong. creating a work around for broken skills and mechanics which make spamming better is not a fix. fixing the broken skills and mechanics causing the issues is the fix. A high SP entry is a great big steel gate across every abusers abilty to exploit the mechanic. If we agree that the mechanic isn't broken, and is actually the intended use BUT that having too much spam is a problem then we need to limit the number of people able to use the mechanic. Abusers don't want to work and earn, they want maximize the reults of their minimal efforts despite any adverse effect on the overall game around them. Any effort to limit the "cheap and easy" mindset from the class is a worthwhile one and with the tools available to use, raising the SP cost of entry, therby minimalizing the entry rewards for a period, will help deter the abusive mindset from a class that when abused affects its surroundings extensively. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 21:01:00 - [25] - Quote Better a gate with a latch than no gate whatsoever. Regardless of any limit you put on equipment, whether its carrying limits, number active limits or even individual expiration timers, the abusive will look to find ways to manipulate and the abuse the circumstances. So, instead of changing flipping individual equipment behaviours around a high SP requirement at the very least will dissuade the noobabusers and require that proabusers have to WAIT until they're willing to pay before having access to the class. Does this stop abuse cold, forever? Of course not. Will the abusers just find something else to abuse to generate the SP to earn access? YES. They will not be able to use the Logistics class as readily to be abusive with! Which IS the point! I helps to make and keep the class occupied with those serious about the purpose of the class as opposed to the exploitation of it! Also, as an aside, I appreciate your avoidance regarding the responsibility element of this equation that I tried to exemplify with my truck running over a kid analogy. Don't think I missed that, I can run with your gate/no gate/gate with a latch red herring attempt just fine. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 22:21:00 - [26] - Quote I'll try it like this, bold is me ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: i think you are missing my point. your idea just slows people down getting to a point where they can abuse the, what we think are broken mechanics. YES. It limits entrance to the class so as to ensure the individual is either serious about pursuing it OR willing to PAY EXTRA (hopefully deterring) as abusers for the use of the class to be abusive. once there your fix is void. it does nothing. fixing the broken mechanics instead completely negates the issue of severe spam from anyone. Any "fix", like any game element, is subject to abuse and manipulation by those who seek to abuse and manipulate. I don't find the mechanic " broken" so much as simply "abusable". There is a difference, there are occasions where large groups of equipments need to be laid out for the intent to be effective. You said you AV. I do too, my AV tool of choice are Proxes, which work best laid as minefields supplemented with REs. On the overhead view, the uninitiated could see one of my minefields and say, " Oh that scrub is just spamming gear". IDGAF what that guy thinks, IGAF about whether an HAV will be able to drive right through or have to stop. you are trying to creating something to make it harder to abuse something like spamming... NO. NO. NO. I'm trying to create something to make it harder to abuse the LOGISTICS class, as a peripheral benefit spam abuse becomes harder too. when the simple thing is just to fix the issue of spamming itself at its source. Okaaay, so lets "fix" the "source" of the abuse: The playerbase. As I said a couple pages back, equipment doesn't spam, PLAYERS do. Shall there be a kick mechanic hotfixed in to remove someone who spams? Spam is a result of PLAYER behaviour. The individual opening the equipment menu and running willy-nilly pitching gear out with every step or piling it. There ARE limits already to this, its called Number Active, as well as that only certain classes carry equipment. Since Logis carry the most equipment so are the most subjected to being abused for use as spammers , maybe we expand that (I am opposed, active limits are fine) to address equipment spam abuse after raising the SP requirement to the class to address the class abuse? (which I obviously endorse) Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.08.30 23:10:00 - [27] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: What is everyone's opinions on the buff to nanite injectors proposed for Delta? The same amount of shield replenished as armor? Sounds freaking awesome. Has that been posted somewhere as being a part of delta or is that forum ether theory? Early "Narrative" option for Delta. And yes, very awesome indeed. Camping people on the ground was too easy. All the more trolltastic if you timed your fire to kill the hero with the needle as well. I was guilty of that. TYVM, had not seen that posted up there Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 294	Posted - 2014.09.03 20:23:00 - [28] - Quote Man, you guys got all bent up about spam and spam solutions when I stated and have restated that the raising of SP cost to enter Logistics would have a peripheral, ie. in addition to, benefit in limiting spam. Go back and read the first couple of pages of this thread and the countless other thread posted about buffing Logi stats. Pay close attention to the critisisms, to the posters talking about useless logis, spamming logis, WP whoring logis and how we don't desrve to be on equal footing in the battlefield because of those poor examples of logis behave. This idea is to address THAT. John Demonsbane wrote: I gotta go with Adam of Eve here. Not that el operators sentiment is wrong, but I really don't think the proposal will have the desired effect. Like i said earlier, I think what you will end up doing is adding a barrier to new players who night want to play logistics without discouraging spammers. The key question is this: What about unlocking logi suits at level 5 prevents someone from simply skilling to level 3 in uplinks. making two scout fits with different combinations of links, and then simply dropping 5-6 uplinks before swapping out to their go-to brick tanked slayer scout fit? (The correct answer is nothing) DUDE. Your "counter-argument" PROVES MY CONCEPT. The spammer, who wants to spam NOT spend, instead of grabbing an easily accessible logi frame of his choice, instead grabs a scout suit. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, LOGI SPAM DETERRED. The spammer now spams 2/3 the equip he would have, the spammed equipment is 0 bonused since it came off a scout and not a logi, and ultimately he likely receives fewer WP for his spamming effort since his equip spammed is lower quality and quantity than if he'd done it from a logi frame. And maybe, just maybe when spammer finds his spam rewards reduced he'll figure some sort of more worthwhile method of getting WP (like maybe hacking something?) and transition away from cheap spam tactics and into more relevant in-battle behaviour. And again, over and over, limiting equipment spamming is only ONE possible, partial benefit. Will newbros look at it and shake their heads? Sure. But if they're serious about coming logi then it won't really matter. The SERIOUS will still join. And the posers will find other pastures. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 294	Posted - 2014.09.03 21:10:00 - [29] - Quote Meee One wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Man, you guys got all bent up about spam and spam solutions when I stated and have restated that the raising of SP cost to enter Logistics would have a peripheral, ie. in addition to, benefit in limiting spam. Go back and read the first couple of pages of this thread and the countless other thread posted about buffing Logi stats. Pay close attention to the critisisms, to the posters talking about useless logis, spamming logis, WP whoring logis and how we don't desrve to be on equal footing in the battlefield because of those poor examples of logis behave. This idea is to address THAT. John Demonsbane wrote: I gotta go with Adam of Eve here. Not that el operators sentiment is wrong, but I really don't think the proposal will have the desired effect. Like i said earlier, I think what you will end up doing is adding a barrier to new players who night want to play logistics without discouraging spammers. The key question is this: What about unlocking logi suits at level 5 prevents someone from simply skilling to level 3 in uplinks. making two scout fits with different combinations of links, and then simply dropping 5-6 uplinks before swapping out to their go-to brick tanked slayer scout fit? (The correct answer is nothing) DUDE. Your "counter-argument" PROVES MY CONCEPT. The spammer, who wants to spam NOT spend, instead of grabbing an easily accessible logi frame of his choice, instead grabs a scout suit. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, LOGI SPAM DETERRED. The spammer now spams 2/3 the equip he would have, the spammed equipment is 0 bonused since it came off a scout and not a logi, and ultimately he likely receives fewer WP for his spamming effort since his equip spammed is lower quality and quantity than if he'd done it from a logi frame. And maybe, just maybe when spammer finds his spam rewards reduced he'll figure some sort of more worthwhile method of getting WP (like maybe hacking something?) and transition away from cheap spam tactics and into more relevant in-battle behaviour. And again, over and over, limiting equipment spamming is only ONE possible, partial benefit. Will newbros look at it and shake their heads? Sure. But if they're serious about coming logi then it won't really matter. The SERIOUS will still join. And the posers will find other pastures. Serious question here... Are you blind? I mean seriously. Any time anyone on these forums talks about equipment they always equate it with logistics. In GD someone posted a video about a MLT frame spamming a MLT needle,then in their post said: "we need a way to punish careless logis". Even though logistics had nothing to do with it. Logistics has a bad stigma for no other reason than they're logistics. You preventing people from using logistics won't change that. Scouts will spam links and logistics will be blamed. Scouts will spam hives and logistics will be blamed. Logistics still will be blamed for the woes of lag even if there is only 1 on the field. I personally went into a match and was literally the only logistics,the match lagged badly and i received hate mail for eq spam(from enemies and allies), even though my X-3 quantums (only 2 deployed) couldn't have done it. I got that mail simply because my corp name had logistics in it. TL;DR people hate logistics because there has never been a pure support role in a FPS before and it scares them. Look. Theres no curing " idiot". There is however limiting detrimental impact. Will people still blame whatever spectre that lives under their bed for whatever ails them regardless of what the SP entry is for logi? Sure, of course. But will making the logi frame a higher tier of unlock limit its use by abusers? Yes. Its a mentality thing and the more we do to keep the abusive mentality away from the frame the more likely we are to be able to have a competitive set of stats without huge swaths of the community justifiably complaining about it. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 294	Posted - 2014.09.03 21:12:00 - [30] - Quote Meee One wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Name me a suit outside logistics that has not been altered since Rattati came along. Only one I can think of is commandos, and I don't count the color change. It's funny how pokey said "incremental changes". He must have forgotten the 150 eHP,extra slots,and grenade bonus assaults just got. None of that is "incremental",when combined it's actually quite extreme. Yet logistics must wait for these "incremental changes"? Lol. Truth is exposed,logistics isn't respected enough to receive the same kind of attention. So lets earn some respect. Lets regulate our class and limit abusive access and watch our reputation change for the positive. Ain't no control greater than Self-Control. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 294	Posted - 2014.09.03 22:05:00 - [31] - Quote Meee One wrote: Oh you and your misguided concepts. It wasn't the noobs that abused logistics,it was the vets. You know the ones that had lv 5 core skills like armor and shielding. The same ones that immediately skilled lv5 into scouts the day they came out. Increasing costs will ensure no new logistics,ever. But the FOTM vets won't have been effected. You're idea is as bad as removing class reps because lollogistics is surviving too long. And about "self-control" i have to restrain myself every day so i don't stack plates to be equal to basics. I would love to use biotics,but with my slower speed + low eHP plus needing to be 20m from the frontlines... Minassaults outrunning me with 2x my eHP... You see? Logistics is the one class that has no options but to use all their slots to stack eHP,because of all their flaws. Logistics can't run,hide,tank,rep tank... And yet rattatai is "intent on ending brick tanking". If logistics isn't buffed beforehand the entire class is screwed. But who cares amirite? Support shouldn't survive a single smg bullet let alone a CR burst. I'm hesitant to address this directly, you're not realizing it but your tone is getting worse and worse. Might be time to just turn the forums off for a couple days, I did and feel much better..... ANYWAYS- Vets will do whatever they can afford to do. They're vets. They reap the benefit of early game entry vs. you or I the same way you or I reap the benefit of our skilling when we fight against true newbs in pubs. My cores are maxed. All of them. My STARTER fits are significantly more potent than a 2nd hour newbs are. This is working as intended. -A limit to entry on the frame isn't going to dissuade vets, likely true. -A limit to entry on the frame is going to make a newb stop and consider whether logistics is what he actually wants to do, also likely true. -A limit to entry on the frame is going to make a newb who doesn't want to logi but wants to farm WP to get SP to then get a different fit altogether not go logi, is also likely true. -A limit to entry then limits the number of actual logis available making logis more valuable to teams in general, is also likely true. -A limit to entry keeps the logi from being the spammable abuse ***** it can be now, also very likely to be true. Considered objectively in its full context this idea is long overdue. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 294	Posted - 2014.09.03 22:28:00 - [32] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Man, you guys got all bent up about spam and spam solutions when I stated and have restated that the raising of SP cost to enter Logistics would have a peripheral, ie. in addition to, benefit in limiting spam. Go back and read the first couple of pages of this thread and the countless other thread posted about buffing Logi stats. Pay close attention to the critisisms, to the posters talking about useless logis, spamming logis, WP whoring logis and how we don't desrve to be on equal footing in the battlefield because of those poor examples of logis behave. This idea is to address THAT. John Demonsbane wrote: I gotta go with Adam of Eve here. Not that el operators sentiment is wrong, but I really don't think the proposal will have the desired effect. Like i said earlier, I think what you will end up doing is adding a barrier to new players who night want to play logistics without discouraging spammers. The key question is this: What about unlocking logi suits at level 5 prevents someone from simply skilling to level 3 in uplinks. making two scout fits with different combinations of links, and then simply dropping 5-6 uplinks before swapping out to their go-to brick tanked slayer scout fit? (The correct answer is nothing) LOL DUDE. Your "counter-argument" PROVES MY CONCEPT. The spammer, who wants to spam NOT spend, instead of grabbing an easily accessible logi frame of his choice, instead grabs a scout suit. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, LOGI SPAM DETERRED!! See wha' jus' hoppent thar'??!!?!? The spammer now spams 2/3 the equip he would have, the spammed equipment is 0 bonused since it came off a scout and not a logi, and ultimately he likely receives fewer WP for his spamming effort since his equip spammed is lower quality and quantity than if he'd done it from a logi frame. And maybe, just maybe when spammer finds his spam rewards reduced he'll figure some sort of more worthwhile method of getting WP (like maybe hacking something?) and transition away from cheap spam tactics and into more relevant in-battle behaviour. And again, over and over, limiting equipment spamming is only ONE possible, partial benefit. Will newbros look at it and shake their heads? Sure. But if they're serious about coming logi then it won't really matter. The SERIOUS will still join. And the posers will find other pastures. I don't see how that's true at all. Your "concept" won't have the impact you think it will. Meee one, for all his/her rageposting, has a point. Nobody sees (or cares) who drops all the uplinks. In the minds of the logi-haters, equipment comes from logis. All spam is logi spam. Nothing is going to change that mindset, certainly not "making" people drop uplinks from non-logi suits, which a lot of people do anyway! To be honest, I drop a prety good percentage of my uplinks from scout suits. Whatever moral victory you might be trying to claim won't have much practical value. Certainly not enough to justify putting the logi suits out of the reach of newer players. You're also making a lot of assumptions about player behavior. For one, pub spammers don't give a rats ass about how good their uplink is, they just want to farm. Exhibit A, the morons who drop std uplinks literally right on top of my Amarr-powered flux uplinks every time theres a triple SP week. It's like clockwork. You think they care if the uplink they just dropped has a bonus apllied to it? For them, the only advantage to higher teir uplinks is that you can use moar. And if you think that only having 2 equipment slots is going to make them suddenly feel like placing uplinks just isn't worth it, I'm going to actually push the objective and fight from the very second the match starts, then I don't know what to tell you other than you have a LOT more faith in the average blueberry than I do. Every suit that has equipment slots is eligible to drop links, hives, use needles, scanners, REs, PEs and whatever fancy box CCP releases next. Being able to drop from 2 slots versus 3 or 4 tho DOES make a difference. You nailed it, pub spammers don't give a rats ass. All the more reason then that WE SHOULD. Logi suits won't be "out of reach", noobs will just have to be willing to reach higher. And quite frankly if, as a noob, they don't have the tolerance for a couple extra hundred thousand SP to get in then they're really not ready for the role and the associated costs, forget SP for equip, what about SP for the cores? For CPU and PG which any REAL logi has MAXED? etc etc etc If they want it, its there. If they don't, they'll know. And rest of us can quit living with the backlash having a bunch of suit tourists creates. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 295	Posted - 2014.09.04 00:01:00 - [33] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Thanks for all of your feedback, guys. lol, we're just getting warmed up in here. We still need to : Theorycraft some new base movement stats. Debate their merits. Debate their drawbacks. Theorycraft new stats based on the previous theorycrafted set. Debate the merits of those. Debate the drawbacks of those. Debate the merits between both sets. Be interrupted by some outlandish suggestion like, "Squads of 6 is OP, reduce to squad of 4" Debate the outlandish theory. Theorycraft a different solution to the outlandish theory. Debate the new theorycrafted solution versus the original idea. lather, rinse, repeat By the time this thread is "done" it'll be its own planet in Molden Heath and have districts. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 302	Posted - 2014.09.05 19:35:00 - [34] - Quote Meee One wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I'm hesitant to address this directly, you're not realizing it but your tone is getting worse and worse... Yeah....i think i'll take a break from posting. Also,don't be a coward. If i'm being unreasonable or asinine call me on it. I encourage you to not mistake my ability to remain civil while warning you about your becoming unreasonable and asinine as "cowardice". My hesitation has nothing to do with addressing you but with not wanting to have any more part in the thread going off topic than I absolutely need to. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 302	Posted - 2014.09.05 19:41:00 - [35] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: I pretty nearly never run a Gal logi. In the contest between the best stealthy scout fits and the best possible active scanner fits, is my impression correct that currently the scouts win as far as being able to fit to be undetectable? If so, that absolutely should be reversed. The very best fit active scanners, who get lucky or good enough to happen to scan in the right direction at the right moment, should be able to pick up the stealthiest scouts. If the Gal logi got a bonus to active scan precision good enough to achieve this, the SP and cost of running a proto gal logi might actually be worth it. Yes, you are correct, in the contest between stealth and scans at their highest level stealth wins. I floated an idea past a CPM candidate at one point about vehicle scanners being tweaked so that they, at least, could detect those super low profile scouts but she was very very adamant about ANY scanning of scouts making them "useless" (wtf?!??!) and from the context of the convo I got the distinct impression that sentiment was largely that of the current scouting community and previous CPM. She was even worse about the topic of scouts losing that 2nd equipment slot. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 302	Posted - 2014.09.05 20:06:00 - [36] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: How does it confirm anything?... people farm vehicle damage points too. Should we take that away? Action + result + repeatability = confirmation People farming vehicle damage is a different issue... And I never suggested taking anything away, just to balance the rewards from related actions. (Amarrs is so tricksy.) This logic though also has us lose Triple SP events altogether, in that: Triple SP Event+more spam+everytime=Triple SP events cause spam and must be STOPPED!! Maybe, just maybe, since the maps are huge and (unlike most every other fps) we aren't allowed to spawn directly off teammates AND most everybody after the first hour realizes that often the one thing between a team redlining the other is one good uplink maybe most people skill uplinks at some level early on? And then, when its Triple SP time, players who largely don't play do or players use low skill characters they normally wouldn't and those characters only have links so they strew them about. Maybe? Maybe its just higher player traffic of low-skill players grasping for any points they can get? In which case, lowering the SP payout doesnt inspire anything except skilling into higher tier links to get the higher quantities deployable? Mebbeh?? Too bad there isn't a way to limit how much of that low-skill spam happens from logisuits... lol Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 302	Posted - 2014.09.05 20:22:00 - [37] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: True Adamance wrote: Logistic Suits - DO NOT need more EHP - Logisitics Suits need to be incentivised to use utility modules and not EHP stack - Logistics Role Bonuses should emphasis the role and be unilateral, especially in the case of the Rep tool bonuses, as no one race in EVE dominates remote reps. *Please elaborate in detail on points one and two because at present they like dude, like totally are bro, in contradiction to each other.* So much of ^that^ I had to BIU it. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 306	Posted - 2014.09.05 22:37:00 - [38] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: I pretty nearly never run a Gal logi. In the contest between the best stealthy scout fits and the best possible active scanner fits, is my impression correct that currently the scouts win as far as being able to fit to be undetectable? If so, that absolutely should be reversed. The very best fit active scanners, who get lucky or good enough to happen to scan in the right direction at the right moment, should be able to pick up the stealthiest scouts. If the Gal logi got a bonus to active scan precision good enough to achieve this, the SP and cost of running a proto gal logi might actually be worth it. Yes, you are correct, in the contest between stealth and scans at their highest level stealth wins. I floated an idea past a CPM candidate at one point about vehicle scanners being tweaked so that they, at least, could detect those super low profile scouts but she was very very adamant about ANY scanning of scouts making them "useless" (wtf?!??!) and from the context of the convo I got the distinct impression that sentiment was largely that of the current scouting community and previous CPM. She was even worse about the topic of scouts losing that 2nd equipment slot. Don't ever ask Appia about anything Scout related unless you want to buff them. Otherwise the response will always be as you experienced. ****, I guess. She wasn't rude or obtuse about it, just...stalwart... in her opinion. The issue with that tho is that if thats going to be the "lightest" frame there is and thats what its capable of then every other role will need not just hotfixing but total 'roid-buffing rewrites. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 306	Posted - 2014.09.06 17:26:00 - [39] - Quote Well, the vehicle scanner idea really was an attempt at a middle ground. That certain scouts can be basically unscannable at all times, under all circumstances seemed contrary to the rock-paper-scissors crafting idea to me. She had a great point in that if there's to be stealth it needs to be stealth all the time and with the overwhelming number of people who went SP deep into scanners, making an infantry portable scanner capable of picking up even the clackest of the clacked would get spammed horribly and make scout stealth negligible. So the idea was then that maybe a toptier vehicle scanner be made available which, by virtue of being larger sized and vehicle CPU/PG powered, would be able to detect those lowest profiles. The spam-potential balance would axis on that since it's vehicle based there would need to be deep deep investment into not just a scanner but the vehicle AND the PG/CPU of the vehicle AND the existing vehicle gamemode limits (which I don't think were in effect at the time of the convo but were drafted and highly likely). It could also be short burst, long cooldown etc to further keep it balanced in larger gameplay. Hell, even the range on that 360 degrees could be adjusted for balance. A vehicle scanner also, as far as scanners go, are the easiest to avoid since a) the vehicle has to enter the area b)scanning vehicles are very obvious, what with the halos they emit and the distinct pulsing sound Having something like this would let scouts scout, infantry scan and get some hits and if theres a need for it a vehicle-specific Anti-Infantry tool is available. Vehicle based so easily countered by existing AV as well. Like I said, it was just an idea. And she hated it. XD Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 322	Posted - 2014.09.19 19:33:00 - [40] - Quote Sooo.... Logis need speed buffs Logis need eHP buffs Logis need repair/recharge/delay buffs Logis need their sidearms back Logis need to be Dropsuit Command level 5 Logis need scouts to lose that 2nd equipment slot Logis need more/better bonuses to equipment use/costs/limits Logis need strengthening without limiting versatility To werk, ceeceepee! cracks novawhip Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 328	Posted - 2014.09.23 21:04:00 - [41] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Meee One wrote: Would it be possible to have the missing sidearm on 3/4ths of the logistics be an equipment slot? Weapon swap would switch to it. It would give ADV logistics 4 equipment,and Pro 5. Cpu/Pg adjustments would need to be made of course. That would be awesome. Even without adding a slot, or tweaking cpu/pg, just making the left or right most equipment slot alternate with our primary weapon when we hit the weapon switch button, would be wonderful. Unfortunately, I imagine it would require a client side patch. But if that's doable, or a function that could be included in Legion, I entirely support that proposal. I too agree that this is a great idea, basically a hotkey assignment that would allow R2 alternating between the weapon slot and w/e equipment is in the 2nd slot. The frustration saved just from being able to quick-cycle gun/repper etc WITHOUT having to deal with the sprint-glitch would be priceless. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 328	Posted - 2014.09.23 21:33:00 - [42] - Quote Z3dog wrote: [quote=Meee One] 0/10 If logistics made up for its lack of eHP with evasion. Not necessarily a stat. [/quote=Z3dog] I agree, evasion is not a stat. The point, I think, Meee One is is getting at tho is logis' ability to move about while under fire (correct me if I'm wrong). And that aspect could be modified, if what others have posted about logi hitboxes being made large (like heavies) in a previous update to deter logislayers. Make the hitbox small again. Hell, give me that CalScout matrix-time-bullet-dodge hitbox so I can really bob and weave through my teammates while being shot at. Not a stat, but still an adjustable value. And a good idea. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 331	Posted - 2014.09.24 21:52:00 - [43] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I have a couple specific questions I would like a re-focus on. 1. Current status of fittings resources (CPU/PG) per race from each player who runs them. In other words where do you see shortfalls and why? Does any aspect seem overly generous and where/why? Please make sure you are responding with regards to suits you can field yourself and bonus points if you include specific fittings and/or mods in your descriptions. 2. Presuming the notion of a secondary (weaker) equipment bonus were being added to the frames, what would you advocate those secondary bonuses be - please list by race and include the reasoning behind your selection - and would such a method, in your view, require the alteration or substitution of any current/primary bonus (if yes which ones, how, and what is the rational behind that). Thanks, Cross Amarr/MinLogi, full cores. 1. If there is any suit in the game that should be capable of stacking complex mods high and low, using all proto equipment and have proto weaponry it really should be the logi class. 2. Secondary bonuses I think would be best if they were just a simple bonus to the "non-racial" gear not bonused by the primary bonus. This second bonus should be 1/2 to 2/3 the value of the equipments primary bonus for the respective race. So, for example, my Minlogi has the repper bonus but adds 1/2-2/3 the bonus Cal gets for hives, Amarr gets for links and Gal gets for scans. My AmarrLogi gets its link bonus and thenngets 1/2-2/3 the Min bonus to the repper, the Cal hives and the Gal scans. Seem simple enough? We keep our original bonuses (which are lore appropriate basically, and fine except the exclusivity across the class aspect) and get bonused decently for everything else, further solidifying Logis as the fiels equipment mastery class. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 331	Posted - 2014.09.24 23:10:00 - [44] - Quote Basmurick wrote: This may be a disastrous idea but I wouldn't even be opposed to some sort of combat penalty on the suit so it could have the fitting and equip/module bonuses it needs without enabling the 'slayer' build to overlap assaults. Even something like a penalty to light weapon fitting to go along with the equipment bonus might ensure that we could fit proto modules and equipment with great bonuses but suffer on the level of a cloak to try and fit a weapon beyond adv. IMO Force logi suits to be true LogiBro, the SP investment is already there. Other suits have equip utility slots without being a dedicated support role for those who just want the odd toy. We are actually already combat penalized. Unlike every other combat suit we receive no weapon performance or fitting bonuses. That, coupled with our embarrassingly low base stat values, makes us already very direct combat ineffective versus the other combat classes. Further penalizing our already sparse self-defense abilities would be a very bad idea IMO. EDIT: reread the OP. I agree, it would absolutely be disastrous. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 336	Posted - 2014.09.25 18:39:00 - [45] - Quote Basmurick wrote: There seems to be some general grumbling about our base stat values and I'll never turn down more survivability, but I think the issue is how to buff logi where they need it in terms of fitting ability and tank without making a tanked damage mod'd logi a better option than the assault. If we're going to get any kind of 'improvement' beyond more equipment tweaks I can imagine them needing to gimp possible damage projection to keep assault viable in the same way we can't become more versatile commandos. I completely agree that our self-defense could use some work in terms of survivability if perhaps not in offensive power. I don't really experience that much myself as I'm Amarr with a maxed pistol that has served me quite well, but I can imagine life without it. There's probably a good reason I see maybe one or two other yellow suits a day across all my games. Thats my point though, even with buffs like we're looking for we still wouldn't be a preffered choice vs. assaults since assaults by bonus design will still perform much better in the role of assaulting. Don't forget, assaults now have their slot layout equalized to ours, so fitting potential is equal. As long as their base stats are relatively higher than ours, which they are and is ez to keep, their weapon bonuses make them better for assaulting. Period. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 336	Posted - 2014.09.25 18:40:00 - [46] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross' OP specifically called out ALL support roles. Not just logis. Therefore HAVs are relevant to topic. Just because ya want it to be only about the logistics suit does not make it so. Agreed. (vomits KickStart and Doritos) Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 336	Posted - 2014.09.25 18:42:00 - [47] - Quote Basmurick wrote: Personally (and I haven't seen this anywhere else yet) I'd like to be able to turn slightly faster. Mind you, when someone comes up behind me and I start getting shot in the back, I agree that I deserve to die before I can turn around and defend myself as that's the importance of situational awareness and is the playstyle of some builds. That being said, blueberries sometimes don't move in a cohesive direction (imagine that) and I'll end up getting caught alone as I try to catch up to wherever the new group of them happens to be forming up, and maybe this is worse because I'm Amarr as I don't know if their slower speed translates to slower turning, but sometimes I'll turn a corner and see something which causes me to (HMG, Tank, red sh*tstorm etc) and I feel like a truck that has to do a 3-point turn to start sprinting back the direction I came as the rounds start to hit the walls around me to cries of "AMG SHOOT THE YELLOW". Generally I try to disengage rather than hold my own with my trusty pistol and I often feel that being able to change directions even only slightly faster would be a large Quality of Life improvement for me, but again that might just be my suit/playstyle and not a good general suggestion. Amarr suit is a frikin' slug. I use one regularly and I hate every minute in it. Had I known it was that slow I never would have specced into it. And having the Min bonus for reptool range isn't going to save it. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 338	Posted - 2014.09.25 19:31:00 - [48] - Quote Jack 3enimble wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Basmurick wrote: Personally (and I haven't seen this anywhere else yet) I'd like to be able to turn slightly faster. Mind you, when someone comes up behind me and I start getting shot in the back, I agree that I deserve to die before I can turn around and defend myself as that's the importance of situational awareness and is the playstyle of some builds. That being said, blueberries sometimes don't move in a cohesive direction (imagine that) and I'll end up getting caught alone as I try to catch up to wherever the new group of them happens to be forming up, and maybe this is worse because I'm Amarr as I don't know if their slower speed translates to slower turning, but sometimes I'll turn a corner and see something which causes me to (HMG, Tank, red sh*tstorm etc) and I feel like a truck that has to do a 3-point turn to start sprinting back the direction I came as the rounds start to hit the walls around me to cries of "AMG SHOOT THE YELLOW". Generally I try to disengage rather than hold my own with my trusty pistol and I often feel that being able to change directions even only slightly faster would be a large Quality of Life improvement for me, but again that might just be my suit/playstyle and not a good general suggestion. Amarr suit is a frikin' slug. I use one regularly and I hate every minute in it. Had I known it was that slow I never would have specced into it. And having the Min bonus for reptool range isn't going to save it. It kind of says in the discriptions that the Amarr are the slowest. Btw with your number of low slots you can make it fast rather easily. I do agree with you though that logi's are too slow. Even my Cal that is supposed to be medium fast is a joke compared to its Assault brother Meh, only speed increase to found in the lows is to sprinting. Logis are too slow all around and the Amarr is definitely the slowest of them all. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 341	Posted - 2014.09.25 22:51:00 - [49] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: THIS IDEA IS FOR PROJECT LEGION ONLY Logistics should be heavy frames, similar to commandos. It's the best way to give them the EHP they need to do their role without the threat of them being slayers. Currently, med frames give far too little native EHP for the logistics to fulfill its role. The remedy: give them a bunch of slots to fit their defenses in. However, this, coupled with their decent speed stats and fitting capabilities (needed for equipment), allows them to cross fit into capable slayers, comparable to Assault suits (often better, though much less since the ehp buff to assaults). Changing to heavy frames solves most, if not all these issues: High native tank allows for a reduction of high and low slots without compromising ehp, while also limiting out of role variations. The reduction in speed really cuts into their combat effectiveness. It also has the added benefit of the threat of advancing troops "stretching their support" by them running out of support range. (This was inspired by Eve's Dreadnought and Carrier class capital ships. One being the highly defensive, massive damage-dealing behemoth (though slow and not agile), the other the highly defensive logistics apogee (though also slow and requiring offensive support). No Thank You, I'll keep my medium frame with some buffing in the base stats over the idea that field supply is better served by me moving about at <4m/s but a million eHP. I can already taste the tears of the "Heavy w/a Light Weapon" qq'ers already. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 343	Posted - 2014.09.26 00:32:00 - [50] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Omega Black Zero wrote: WP for repping vehicles would be nice, maybe +25 for every 250 armor repaired? obviously would cap your triage WP as would repping infantry Repairing dropsuits = triage Repairing anything else = mechanic points I could be wrong, but weren't WP for vehicle/installation repair removed due to farming? If so, they won't be back any time soon. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 345	Posted - 2014.09.26 04:54:00 - [51] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: Omega Black Zero wrote: WP for repping vehicles would be nice, maybe +25 for every 250 armor repaired? obviously would cap your triage WP as would repping infantry Repairing dropsuits = triage Repairing anything else = mechanic points I could be wrong, but weren't WP for vehicle/installation repair removed due to farming? If so, they won't be back any time soon. Just add a cap exactly like triage or make it 25 points per X amount of armour repaired. Done. I'm not arguing against an opportunity to be rewarded for doing things I do anyway, but I don't think that even with reasonable limits WP for mechanical repping will be back. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 350	Posted - 2014.10.08 23:09:00 - [52] - Quote Awesome, I'm not too late to add my input. Appy-Polly-Loggy on my absence, I've been moving so unable to play/comment tho I have been following the reading intermittently. That said, Thank You, Cross Atu, for your continued diligence in furthering the Logistics class. My immediate takeaways from the last 15 pages and the updated theorysheet are as follows: 1. Did Meee One get banned again? Where are you, dude? 2. HP buff, check. Regen re-allowed, check. Movement speed, absent? Is this a "pick 2 out of 3" scenario? Movement speed buffing ( both sprinting and walking) is paramount to survival. I like the stamina increases but someone else said it best when they said, better to go there fast than be able to farther, slower. We NEED movement increases, even if its just to our walking speeds and not sprint. 3. Theres 4 or 5 pages of Scout input (welcome input, btw) that presented a couple fallacy situations/counterarguements to sheet proposals. One was the idea that if Logis get hp/regen/speed buffed we would suddenly be "competitive" vs Assaults, ie Who would win between 6 Logis vs. 6 Assaults. The flaw in this as reasoning to not buff Logis is that even if we were to be buffed to identical hp/regen/speed levels we (Logis) would still be at a significant disadvantage by virtue of the Assault frames having weapon bonuses ( they shoot faster, more powerfully and with reduced drawbacks like cooldown than we do) AND the fact most of us don't have sidearms! The Amarr Logi, our sidearmed bretheren, pays for his sidearm in speed and fitting. So this whole, " OhNoesSlayerLogis!" argument is just a waste of space. The other premise set forth, regarding the equipment fitting changes proposed, used an example FC determining the need for an uplink and presented the Scout frame as having, "the best odds" of delivering said link. That Scouts have "the best odds" of delivering a link is EXACTLY THE SYMPTOM OF THE PROBLEM with Logistics frames. Uplink deployment, anywhere on a map, at any time during a battle, is a LOGISTICAL question whose answer overwhelmingly should be utilisation of a LOGISTICAL FRAME. The situations/conditions where a Scout frame is the first choice should be the outlier, NOT the average. And if a Scout is used, that he places a crappy, low count, slow uplink he'll need to guard until an ACTUAL Logi can spawn and bring the goods in on, should really be how that scenario plays out. 4. Cross Atu wrote: ... if under the current status of the game those support needs can be readily met without the presence of a logistics frame in squad what incentives can make said frame of adequate value to field? This I see as the basis for the fitting changes to equipment (CPU/PG) and I don't think I could agree more with the proposed results. That Logis are able to fit the gear others can't or won't is FINE. That Scouts can't cloak AND link/scan/hiv/re outside of STD is FINE. I think the boost to our fitting AND reduced fitting ability to other frames is absolutley the right direction for this class and gameplay overall. Will I HATE not toting my Allotek rep hives on my adv commando? Fuckyes. Will I adapt and figure another, maybe better way? Fuckyes again. The only caveat I have to the proposed equipment fitting idea as-is has to do with the nanite-cluster counts, these should probably be increased across the board so stationary unit emplacements (such as snipers or AV) can have reasonable use of hives (theirs or Logi provided) before needing replenishment. 1 hiv=1 swarm or locus grenade is NOT acceptable. Maybe a buff to the Compact Hive (already determined to be outside the current changes) could be done to better help the useful equipment access for non-logi frames. Maybe, a "Compact Standard" could be created across ALL the equipment types, providing a proto-esque type of functionality yet easily fittable by most suits. 5. The Active Scanners vs. Passive Scans thing, I... don't understand. First, I am pro-shared squad scans. And I very often fit, especially in PCs, a combination of Precision Enhancers and Range Amps. My experience is definitely that my passive stacks DO NOT outweigh the effect of my fellow bro with an active scanner. First is, he has range. Even with 3 amps I'm only lighting up 30-40 meters. That distance is about 3-4 seconds of display on the tacnet of any running frame (except a heavy) before they are literally on my location. Second is that the Active Scanner scans a set profile, whereas my PrecEnh stacks are enhancing from my suits base profile! On my Scout or Logi, its not bad. On my Commando, it sucks. 6. Amarr Logis should keep their sidearms, the conversation touched on this topic a couple pages back. I guess there's a "normalizing" initiative on this (ie HOMOGENIZING) but its worth remembering that Amarr Logis gave up an equipment slot AND a module slot as well as became slow as sht in exchange for what was once termed, "The Distinguishing Feature" of this frame. Do not rob this suit of its identity and field effectiveness. 7. There was also a brief bit regarding the RE deployment and activation delay (first deploy->triggertime). I would like to request (since we're adjusting them) some analysis of not just RE timing increases, but also PE decreases*. I don't know specifically how long the delay is for ProxMines to become active but I do know it's way too long, I have beenrun over several times by vehicles driving through the pathway I've just mined anticipating their route with my PEs not activating, me dying and the vehicles continuing with no damage taken. Character limit reached, continued next post Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 351	Posted - 2014.10.08 23:34:00 - [53] - Quote 8. All in all I like a lot of what I see and think the spreadsheet values are a great starting point. The biggest negative I find is with the absence of ANY sort of Movement buffing, buffing which I feel is critical 3rd corner to Logi survivability/effectiveness. I also notice the Logi being a DSCommand 5 idea is not included, I get it. People want to play but not pay (trollollolol me XD) whatever, they'll get what they earn. I also have to reaffirm my position that Scouts MUST go 1 equipment slot to balance not just their effect on us, Logistics, and our role but the greater game as a whole. Scouts are Reconnaisance units, Cloaking has proved it's effectiveness and utility as its own stealth discipline, why do Logis lose the bonus to cloaking but Scouts keep the bonus (in carrying multiple types) to equipment? This makes no sense. Insofar as the equipment bonus tables go, I'm a fan of methods 1 and 2, in that order. I'm not sure about this "shield transporter" stuff and if thats a maybe Soon (tm) sort of thing I don't think having the tables account for that is a worthwhile venture. We're for existing Support play, to adjust existing paramaters, hypothetical ventures really shouldn't be a part of this. Which isn't saying I'm anti-shield transporters or bonuses for them, but since they don't exist and nobody here has actually played any significant number of games with them they're to great a variable to plan for. If they are confirmed and guaranteed, I like the idea of them as the "universal" bonus type, across all races more so than the rep tool. All in all good stuff, Cross Atu et al. We may actually forge a worthwhile and combat support effective Logistics class yet! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 351	Posted - 2014.10.08 23:59:00 - [54] - Quote Cool, I was wondering where he was since he so clearly made his passion obvious and, really, his "raising of the alarm" regarding the inital proposed speed nerfs was the wake-up (for me at least) that initiated the thread awareness. Its just weird he's silent, but w/e, Life Happens. I do see a valid role in scouts placing uplinks. I see a valid role in ALL suits placing uplinks. But, as a specialty? As the deployment first pick? Thats where I see an issue. Send a scout to recon/clear. Send a Logi to link. OR if the Scout is linking, yeah, its a slow link he'll have to cover until the Logi spawns and can fully utilize the locale. Passive scans aren't wallhacks, bro. Not even close. They are absolutley dependent on the scanning players' distance, not just for the scan but for the reception too. When I stack my Amps up, I'm only expanding my circle of detection. My heavy, next to me, he'll see what I detect on his tacnet because positionally our tacnets overlap. Our Scout, running our flank 40 meters out, does not see what I detect because he's too far away. If I'm separated from my squad, only I see what I detect, until I'm close enough for the net to overlap again, then it's shared. Also, don't forget that passive detection is also limited by the db profile of the scanning suit, PrecEnh mods drop the detection % from the suits base, which was why passive stacks work OK (just ok too, not great) with my Scout or Logi but suck on my Commando since the Commando frame initial profile base is too high to make PrecEnh worthwhile relative to 99% of the other battlefield circumstances. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 352	Posted - 2014.10.09 02:13:00 - [55] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: @el OPERATOR, before I dig too deeply into your feedback, let me make sure that you have read Iteration 2 of the document, because some changes were made and from the sounds of your post you may have been reading doc 1 or you may think the changes were in the wrong direction/not far enough and I would rather know for sure rather than assume. Cheers, Cross You are correct, I absolutely drafted from the initial document. I take back everything good I said about the sheet! XD brb with an amended eval. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 352	Posted - 2014.10.09 02:22:00 - [56] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Cool, I was wondering where he was since he so clearly made his passion obvious and, really, his "raising of the alarm" regarding the inital proposed speed nerfs was the wake-up (for me at least) that initiated the thread awareness. Its just weird he's silent, but w/e, Life Happens. Speed nerfs? What speed nerfs? Or are we talking way back in the day? The proposed speed nerfs that were a part of the HFDelta preliminary stat release. " Back in the day" like 2 months ago. el OPERATOR wrote: I do see a valid role in scouts placing uplinks. I see a valid role in ALL suits placing uplinks. But, as a specialty? As the deployment first pick? Thats where I see an issue. Send a scout to recon/clear. Send a Logi to link. OR if the Scout is linking, yeah, its a slow link he'll have to cover until the Logi spawns and can fully utilize the locale. Passive scans aren't wallhacks, bro. Not even close. They are absolutley dependent on the scanning players' distance, not just for the scan but for the reception too. When I stack my Amps up, I'm only expanding my circle of detection. My heavy, next to me, he'll see what I detect on his tacnet because positionally our tacnets overlap. Our Scout, running our flank 40 meters out, does not see what I detect because he's too far away. If I'm separated from my squad, only I see what I detect, until I'm close enough for the net to overlap again, then it's shared. Also, don't forget that passive detection is also limited by the db profile of the scanning suit, PrecEnh mods drop the detection % from the suits base, which was why passive stacks work OK (just ok too, not great) with my Scout or Logi but suck on my Commando since the Commando frame initial profile base is too high to make PrecEnh worthwhile relative to 99% of the other battlefield circumstances. There's no real intent to touch high or low slot mods within this proposal, just to be clear. That having been said, since you mentioned both PC and Active Scans, how often do you have a dedicated GalLogi on the ground running active scans throughout an full PC match? I know differing players and corps play differently so an additional angle of input is of interest to me. This response was more toward JDemonsbane (teach me not to quote ppl) and his response to my feedback. Several of my CorpMates have Gallogis, and we do deploy them in our PCs. Whether or not they're working that scanner the whole match really depends on conditions, but we do have them and use them. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 352	Posted - 2014.10.09 02:44:00 - [57] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: @el OPERATOR, before I dig too deeply into your feedback, let me make sure that you have read Iteration 2 of the document, because some changes were made and from the sounds of your post you may have been reading doc 1 or you may think the changes were in the wrong direction/not far enough and I would rather know for sure rather than assume. Cheers, Cross We're good, I see movement is in and while I think the value could be better, whats there is a good start. Sprint buff would be nice, between Assault and Scout is the proper general litmus I think. Other than that, most of rest is developing nicely, I'm still on TeamMethod1 tho I can play on TeamMethod2b. Hell, top either of those with the RE/PE carry bonus (all logis, same values) and I think we'd really see the Logistical potential of the suit realized. Hit it, Cross! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 352	Posted - 2014.10.09 02:54:00 - [58] - Quote Bring the fitting bonus and upward cost adjustment back. Its a great idea for revitalizing and reinforcing the Support class and role but one that really needs to have both parts. Especially with the greater re-write of deployable equipment parameters. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 352	Posted - 2014.10.09 03:04:00 - [59] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: We will have to agree to disagree about the wall hacks. Funkmaster Whale made a nice thread about it a month or two ago. The argument on the current form of passive scans is this: Scenario 1: You can see the opponent as a dot on your radar when your precision beats theirs = ewar Scenario 2: Also EWAR You can see: - the opponent on your radar when your precision beats theirs - the opponent on your radar when someone else's precision beats theirs, even if yours does not So long as you are squadded together AND your radar overlaps with your teammates - the opponent when they are on someone else's radar, even if out of range of your own I'm going to assume you mean the chevron, which without a range indicator is useless. If you mean on the radar, reference the overlap element^ - which way they are facing, in real time You get this for anyone on tacnet, has nothing to do w/"sharing" - the opponent right in front of your eyes, without having to look at your radar, just right there where you can put a crosshair on them and everything as they turn the corner... Dude. If they're that close, thats not wallhax. Thats EWAR. Get Some, its, like, the future and stuff... = lolnothax Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 352	Posted - 2014.10.09 04:29:00 - [60] - Quote I remember the disabling of shared passives last year, but that was for team sharing because the visible chevron element was too much for some people. Without a range indicator, the screen being occupied by 16 floating indicators was considered cluttered. Squad datapooling should be a basic element of gameplay in this setting, as it is now. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 356	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:10:00 - [61] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I remember the disabling of shared passives last year, but that was for team sharing because the visible chevron element was too much for some people. Without a range indicator, the screen being occupied by 16 floating indicators was considered cluttered. The CCP Itself wrote: Uprising 1.4 Patch Notes: * Shared passive scanner vision for squads disabled (results of active scanners are still shared with squads) Link: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1210968#post1210968 reading comprehension wrote: ...vision for squads [plural] disabled... Squad A, Squad B and Squad C take the field. Squad A detects, Squads B and C receive. THIS is what was disabled, intentionally, to ease the "clutter" of the visual interface. Next line down on those notes also describes the disabling of Team Chevron display for the same reason. This was also when CCP was trying to stimulate Active Scanner use, this patch specifically led to everyone and their gramma becoming a scannerina to make up for the loss of team vision, ie, "Squads Vision". One squad to another. Individual squad member shared vision remains, as it should, since Livin in a Sci-Fi Future wrote: Squad datapooling should be a basic element of gameplay in this setting, as it is now. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 356	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:15:00 - [62] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Cross Atu wrote: (honestly I still have a taste for the grown up version of reps seen by our sky clad counterparts in EVE, but that idea may be seen as too radical ). In EVE it's about what, +150% bonus to reps per level of Logistics right? so +750% to a Focused Core Repair tool, puts you at like what....1312 HP/second? Give me that bonus and I'll gladly take the "Sidearm Only" Logi that people get so excited for. hmm... make it the dual slot sidearm (not the dual wield unless the proposed numbers get better) logi and I'd buy in. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 357	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:46:00 - [63] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: The CCP Itself wrote: Uprising 1.4 Patch Notes: * Shared passive scanner vision for squads disabled (results of active scanners are still shared with squads) Link: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1210968#post1210968 reading comprehension wrote: ...vision for squads [plural] disabled... :: laughs :: :: leaves thread :: o7 Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 357	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:05:00 - [64] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Cross Atu wrote: (honestly I still have a taste for the grown up version of reps seen by our sky clad counterparts in EVE, but that idea may be seen as too radical ). In EVE it's about what, +150% bonus to reps per level of Logistics right? so +750% to a Focused Core Repair tool, puts you at like what....1312 HP/second? Give me that bonus and I'll gladly take the "Sidearm Only" Logi that people get so excited for. 150% to rep RANGE per level of racial cruiser.. And 15% decrease in cap cost per level of logistics ships. Don't tease. Something like that would have me standing on a rooftop Republic Core dual-beaming Dropships like I was flying kites. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 357	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:27:00 - [65] - Quote For the record I vote to Cross Atu wrote: ...deep six this "logi should not be able to fight" non-sense... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 359	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:55:00 - [66] - Quote So is the non-buff of Sprint speeds (say .25%, like movement) to alleviate concerns of "slayer-logi" terror? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 359	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:32:00 - [67] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: So is the non-buff of Sprint speeds (say .25%, like movement) to alleviate concerns of "slayer-logi" terror? Slayer logi was only a thing because they could out-tank an assault and could damn near match sentinels. That's it. That is the sordid story of the slayer logi. You could literally buff every non-EHP stat the logi has by 20% and not achieve slayer logi so long as assaults field a significantly better tank. But that's mostly because this community is full of mentally handicapped dingbats who think EHP>ALL. I find the addition of precision mods to an HMG to be amazing even if only a slight boost. Increases my survivability by a wide margin. But more seriously logis need to be better at using equipment than any other suit and they need to be able to escape to allies and fire support. Solo logi should be suicide. Agreed, I remember. I was asking since I was not involved in much of the specific numerics between sheets 1 and 2, I do feel that Movement buffing and Sprint buffing is necessary but understand that across the last 40 pages various individuals have popped in, looked at the drafts, pointed and said, "SlayerLogis!!" So we've got about the acceptable limit (just under Assaults) applied to one half but nothing to the other half. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 359	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:45:00 - [68] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Solo logi should be suicide. Agreed, with the addendum that I think the same should apply every bit as much to most fits/roles the majority of the time. But if I really try to make that a baseline I'll only get lynched soo.... /goes back to trying to balance a team game within a world were everyone wants to be their own flavor of Rambo Ccp threw teamwork out the window as soon as the cloak was introduced. It can be bad but I don't think its quite that bad. Cloaking, especially with the extra dampening and doubly especially on Scouts is just very potent. Potent enough that squadded individuals are able to manuever at greater distances from one another, making an outside assessment of their teamwork that much more difficult. Case in point- I'm a logi laying links and hives, my squadmates are clearing a supply depot on the opposite side of a structure from me. They push the reds back into my LOS, and I pick a couple off from their flank. Those reds, based on their deathscreen very likely said, "QQ, SlayerLogi!!" oblivious that it was my squad pushing them to me and the only reason I even had the position was because I was prepping that area for my squad/team to use. Personally I like cloaking and the additional tactical depth it allows, even if that depth drowns me sometimes. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 359	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:53:00 - [69] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I wasn't contradicting, just adding. The problem with the unarmed logi is the same as the slow turning heavy back in beta. A feeling of impotence. When you cannot make even a token gesture of defiant bloodshed against an attacker you don't fell like a valuable team member. You feel like a victim. No one plays vidya games to be the victim unless they need serious psych help. IMHO the logi needs to have the speed of a assault so they can respond to changing situations, reach downed allies quickly and get behind cover (like a sentinel) when the shooting starts. They need to be more efficient in using equipment than combat suits. This is imperative, even if that means nerfing equipment and bonusing logis to use them at full efficacy. The only exceptions to this rule would be scanners and explosives. Logistics need to not be able to field assault level tank. This was the direct cause of the slayer logi. End. Stop. Look no further for the cause. Logistics do not fare well in a solo pubstar environment because blueberries are idiots. A logistics fit properly costs almost 50%more than a comparable sentinel or assault suit. Losing said fits because your dingleberry allies cannot comprehend that they need to wait up is intensely frustrating. Logistics are mostly ignored by friendly players except sentinels. The sentinel/logi pair is a natural because fatboy is the only ally the suit can keep up with. The sentinel benefit from logi reps more than other suits and more WP can be earned shoving fat intestines back in fat bellies because the HP pool is deep and guardian awards are plentiful. But logi play is stagnant. Most logi suitas are tourist fits used to spam equipment then frag off to a killer fit because no one wants to be a victim, or to tether themselves to sone donut-munching HMG heavy who may or may not understand which way the weapon is supposed to be pointed. Logis are not incentivized to be pro squad players because the squads leave them In the dust with the fatsuits who are relegated to protecting cap points and playing squad bait. We're on the same page, squad member quality notwithstanding. Only caveat I would to any of this really would just be that if the Scanners and Explosives are to be exempted from the equipment nerf/bonus adjustments then Scouts really have to be 1 equipment slot. They could still cloak and run invisi-ops, but not while simultaneously being madbombers and unit detection central. Cloak or Scan or Bomb while Tanking, Ganking and Speeding only. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 362	Posted - 2014.10.10 07:40:00 - [70] - Quote So, if the equipment cost is off the table then there's no need for the balancing reductions in cpu and pg correct? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 362	Posted - 2014.10.10 16:47:00 - [71] - Quote The 80hp from sheet 1 I think better serves our survivability purpose than the 40 hp from sheet 2, especially once those hp are divided between shield and armor. 20 extra hp either side isn't enough additional buffer for the high fire conditions that ignite on contested points/choke areas. 20 extra points would wind up being an extra .5 seconds of survival... really not enough. We've established that with the new bonusing to weaponry/base stats other suits have been buffed with in recent months slayerlogis are almost impossible to recreate so why not the full 80 (or even 100?) hp? Even on suits that equal Assaults on one side, shield or armor, the Assault hp total is still greater in all cases. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 362	Posted - 2014.10.10 17:41:00 - [72] - Quote Part of the point in this is to create base stats that don't immediately require we surround ourselves with heavies, competent or not. Any suit can stack hp to tank hp, considering the sort of module spreads that Logistics units could be utilizing to support their squad (especially ewar) we and our squads are worse served by Logis having to stack hp just get to minimums that are more or less base stats for every other frame we're in combat against. NoOne in here is advocating any sort of immunity, just a base stat set that better survivability and utility can be built up from. Why on earth would you suggest we drop slots, with the possible loss difference being made up by base stats? That doesn't create a net gain (what we're looking for, fair buffs) it creates a net wash. As far as this as a method to deter abusers, I don't see it working. The best method by far is what we already have- Scout, Assault and Heavy stats and bonuses that are extremely combat effective and far superior to what Logis currently or in the future have. If buffing into potential abuse territory is a concern, I suggested (and still do) that Logistics frames be a Dropsuit Command Level 5 unlock, filtering out the tourists/short-timers who are most often the culprits of abuse of any frame. A good question tho, Where are we as far as being able to have our hitbox profile lowered? Can that be done? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 372	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:15:00 - [73] - Quote popcorn machine begins emitting smoke from uneaten popcorn burning Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 374	Posted - 2014.10.12 07:46:00 - [74] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: So, if the equipment cost is off the table then there's no need for the balancing reductions in cpu and pg correct? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 374	Posted - 2014.10.12 07:47:00 - [75] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: The 80hp from sheet 1 I think better serves our survivability purpose than the 40 hp from sheet 2, especially once those hp are divided between shield and armor. 20 extra hp either side isn't enough additional buffer for the high fire conditions that ignite on contested points/choke areas. 20 extra points would wind up being an extra .5 seconds of survival... really not enough. We've established that with the new bonusing to weaponry/base stats other suits have been buffed with in recent months slayerlogis are almost impossible to recreate so why not the full 80 (or even 100?) hp? Even on suits that equal Assaults on one side, shield or armor, the Assault hp total is still greater in all cases. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 378	Posted - 2014.10.12 19:46:00 - [76] - Quote I'll need a buff to my arm if my job becomes run around and throw batteries at people. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 383	Posted - 2014.10.14 18:23:00 - [77] - Quote Sheet get updated yet? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 384	Posted - 2014.10.14 18:59:00 - [78] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Sheet get updated yet? Iteration #3 has not yet been posted - I am currently waiting on the tech evaluations for related items (mostly checking which of the skill methods can be confirmed as possible) before moving forward. I will be certain there is a post here stating when Iteration #3 goes live Cool, tyvm, thought I'd ask. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 387	Posted - 2014.10.14 23:47:00 - [79] - Quote Oh and, since they were in here "contributing", you should read through the following thread. The scouts and their resident voicepiece are not and do not provide gamebalance intended feedback. The evidence (kdr leaderboards, wtf? fknsrsly??) and their tables (Magnus' whole intercourse) are deeply skewed to never allow scout functionality to be balanced with the rest of the game. Please DISREGARD any of their input to the conversation on Support and Support play. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177251&find=unread Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 387	Posted - 2014.10.15 17:31:00 - [80] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Nothing personal, but I'm ok with meee one being out of this, *the grown ups need to make some possibly far reaching decisions here (as far reaching as things can be in dust) and objectivity is crucial*. So, more like this then? When will you clean the FanFestRageQuitter riding the reputation of characters THEY AREN'T stardust from your eyes and see that this cabal of individuals has zero interest in balanced gameplay mechanics? The game got better while they were gone. Coincidence? Now they're "back" and continued improvement gets stymied while new misinformation and intentionally useless data is introduced by them and vetted? Coincidence again? DUST is built on customized counters countering counters but if one class group has 95% of the counters built in outright then there will always be one class group that starts, ends, and decides almost every battle. Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels. If "Shotty Go Bang" or "Appia" want to discuss it with me, I'm not hiding. I Laugh My Ass Off Out Loud at altcowards. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 388	Posted - 2014.10.15 22:29:00 - [81] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Nothing personal, but I'm ok with meee one being out of this, *the grown ups need to make some possibly far reaching decisions here (as far reaching as things can be in dust) and objectivity is crucial*. So, more like this then? When will you clean the FanFestRageQuitter riding the reputation of characters THEY AREN'T stardust from your eyes and see that this cabal of individuals has zero interest in balanced gameplay mechanics? The game got better while they were gone. Coincidence? Now they're "back" and continued improvement gets stymied while new misinformation and intentionally useless data is introduced by them and vetted? Coincidence again? DUST is built on customized counters countering counters but if one class group has 95% of the counters built in outright then there will always be one class group that starts, ends, and decides almost every battle. Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels. If "Shotty Go Bang" or "Appia" want to discuss it with me, I'm not hiding. I Laugh My Ass Off Out Loud at altcowards. Not the thread for debating the overall viability of the scout role or its overall balance with other roles. While certainly the scout, assault, and even commando have some relevance to the topic of this thread a debate centering around another class is hardly useful in this context - even less so calling out specific members of the community. I realize that there is somewhat of a 'holding pattern' going on right now until I can update the thread with tech evaluations in hand, and as such it is easy for conversation to sidetrack, but let us try to keep this thread 'on point'. 0.02 ISK Cross Understood, the only reason it cameos in this thread at all is to ensure the "input" from said individuals is recognition of the actual, greater, context. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 388	Posted - 2014.10.15 22:34:00 - [82] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Scope creep is bad Needs more hipfire. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 388	Posted - 2014.10.16 20:54:00 - [83] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Anyway, back to the topic. I'm quite interested to hear what is technically possible and what isn't. About that. What if we kept the cloak bonus? I realize it's a glitch, unintended and up for correction,but cloak logis aren't any sort of major threat since every scout in town and half the prec enhanced mediums can still detect them AND are combat superior in every aspect versus them. If logis keep the fitting bonus (hell, maybe even make the fitting bonus better) there'd be no need to spend DEV resources to change it, Logis would have worthwhile access to an EWAR element and it would all be with no major negatives on existing gameplay, since it doesn't seem to have that effect now while still being an aspect of current conditions. Oh, yeah- Nerf scouts, on all of the things. I'd add this to my sig but it seems so much more personal when I take the time to write it by "hand". Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 396	Posted - 2014.10.23 18:54:00 - [84] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Currently trying to get Logi updates ready for hotfix Echo, but that won't come until after patch 1.9 deployment my current *guess* is we'll be looking at updates to this thread second or third week of Nov. I will of course make efforts to have it in before that if possible, but 1.9 takes priority. Cheers, Cross So am I inferring accurately then that we'll see 1.9 deployed here last week of October or so? I have some real high hopes for native repping not just helping us in heavy-fire conditions but also with some of whats being perceived as reptool "spam"/wp-whoring. If more frames have reps, theres less for us to rep and generate our " OP" WP from, so to compensate repwhores will have to diversify their skillsets making reppers less prominent and therefore less likely to inspire debate about their use/mechanics for rewards. Which I think is a good thing. Logistics, regardless of the racial take or specialization, is about total battlefield logistics, not just one aspect/area/group of suits IMHO. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 402	Posted - 2014.10.30 17:09:00 - [85] - Quote Meee One wrote: KalOfTheRathi wrote: Is there any possibility for squad based uplinks? I ask because way back in time we had a specification for an uplink that had very limited spawns (five as I recall) and the interesting aspect was that it was squad limited. The intention as I understood it was to send in the Scout with one and allow your squad (5? seems wrong with current squad sizes) to attack an objective, counter a push or just make life more interesting for the Red Berries. If the current code base doesn't support it I understand. But if it does I believe it would add a level of entertaining game play. A version of that type of uplink is still in. Go to the Pro uplink section. "Abyss" is its name. Can deploy 6 at -75% spawn delay. AUR only,it doesn't have an ISK varient. Just add an ISK varient. Pay-to-Win!! Pay-to-Win!!!! Pay-to-Win!!!!1!1!1! hyperventilates, turns blue and falls over Nerf scouts. Because S2W is as bad or worse than P2W. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 408	Posted - 2014.10.31 18:09:00 - [86] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: KalOfTheRathi wrote: Is there any possibility for squad based uplinks? I ask because way back in time we had a specification for an uplink that had very limited spawns (five as I recall) and the interesting aspect was that it was squad limited. The intention as I understood it was to send in the Scout with one and allow your squad (5? seems wrong with current squad sizes) to attack an objective, counter a push or just make life more interesting for the Red Berries. If the current code base doesn't support it I understand. But if it does I believe it would add a level of entertaining game play. A version of that type of uplink is still in. Go to the Pro uplink section. "Abyss" is its name. Can deploy 6 at -75% spawn delay. AUR only,it doesn't have an ISK varient. Just add an ISK varient. Pay-to-Win!! Pay-to-Win!!!! Pay-to-Win!!!!1!1!1! hyperventilates, turns blue and falls over Nerf scouts. Because S2W is as bad or worse than P2W. gets up, dusts self off So I checked on those things last night and unless there was a ninjafix in-between you posting it and I looking for them, you, sir, are incorrect. The 'abyss' link only spawn modifies at -47%, not -75% and there is an LP store variant available (isk+lp) that has the same performance. Crisis, averted. Nerf scouts. Because whether isk, aur or lp they are imbalanced. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 408	Posted - 2014.10.31 20:43:00 - [87] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Update: I will be creating and linking a new iteration of the proposal after patch 1.9 deploys (and we have the chance to see if it creates any unexpected side effects). Cheers, Cross Cool, lets get some work done! edit: Nerf scouts. Their imbalanced prescence is an unexpected side effect whose time has come. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 453	Posted - 2014.11.12 18:34:00 - [88] - Quote As an Update, Logi/Support survivability is still extremely bad unless heavily tanked, then its just pretty bad. The iteration 3 sheet proposals really do not do enough to raise logi frames to an even survival performance level, especially under PC conditions and doubly especially with the continued reticence about balancing light frames, which are overwhelmingly prominent in PC. 80 extra hp was barely enough as a start, stripping it to 40 even with the addition of a couple innate reps/second is laughable. The movement speed "buff" I don't see really being much of one, its still short what Assaults are capable of and Assaults only pull it off because they have the extra tank to withstand the combat while they track their targets. And cpu/pg nerfs instated because of the possibility of equipment changes? Thats not logical, if we decide to and how to change equipment THEN we can debate adjusting cpu/pg. At this point in time its premature to include them. If anything based on conditions in 1.9 we should include the addition of sidearms to all the logi frames since every other frame has them AND they need to be "balanced", like scouts. Could someone point me towards this Nanocircutry discussion please? I've not been forum'ing the last couple days and my initial looking around for the thread has not been successful. I'd like to read the proposal in depth. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 471	Posted - 2014.11.14 17:48:00 - [89] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Y'all better stop trying to turn this into a "how shall we best nerf the logi" thread, otherwise, it just might happen. Those aren't Logis talking, they're scout loyalist alts more concerned with preserving inherent scout frame dominance than overall game balance. The most unfortunate part about it is that, most likely (hopefully) due to limits in unbiased analytical resouces, Rattati, the CPM and whoever else dev-side is listening to them . Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 471	Posted - 2014.11.14 18:05:00 - [90] - Quote Meee One wrote: Just want to point something out... Scouts have been running at 8m/s permascanning in a 360 degree radius for months,no nerf. Logistics gets a team scanner to help their team,plans on nerfing 2 days after implemented. Logistics is even specifically mentioned in the eWAR post. Funny how a "fully skilled scout" scanning 100% of the time passively isn't OP enough to warrant a nerf. But a "fully skilled logistics" scanning once every 15-30 seconds is. Even a 50% range nerf,which will completely destroy active scanners. snip The eWAR thread is what you get when you ignore a whole mediums frame class in favor of another. Well, logistics aren't exactly being ignored,they are being nerfed,in favor of assaults,again. What's next? Assaults getting 2 equipment slots? No, you are not alone in seeing this for what it is, the further outpacing of Logistics base stats by the already advantaged other suits. Months of gross imbalance perpetuated even longer by the "fixes", most of which just create a wash of performance, so that while the circumstances change the imbalances remain. And the failure to directly address those imbalances just lead to balancing attempts that will never be truly effective because none actually addresses the core imbalanced elements. So sad to watch, like watching a great major corporation who provided a great service still fail and be forced into bankruptcy because it wouldn't address its executive bloat and instead hid behind accounting tricks until the damage was too far done. The execs party it up and parachute, everybody else is fired and the world loses an excellent service provider. **** is de-press-ing. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 472	Posted - 2014.11.14 18:12:00 - [91] - Quote Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. I still like this idea. I still hate this idea. Sorry dude. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 474	Posted - 2014.11.14 18:40:00 - [92] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: ...... I still like this idea. I still hate this idea. Sorry dude. ^Seconded. Though not sorry about it. Also in Zaria's camp. Makes no sense in an FPS. It makes sense, my issue is it's creating even more of a "soft target" out of the class. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 474	Posted - 2014.11.14 20:10:00 - [93] - Quote busts out popcorn, minds his bbq from afar Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 478	Posted - 2014.11.14 22:34:00 - [94] - Quote still munching popcorn sees that theres 4 full pages to digest, decides to wait to finish grilling first then will sit and read Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 494	Posted - 2014.11.15 23:06:00 - [95] - Quote This thread is now officially long overdue for a blue tag. I know, Cross is handling it and handling it well, but still. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 494	Posted - 2014.11.16 01:20:00 - [96] - Quote Meee One wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: This thread is now officially long overdue for a blue tag. I know, Cross is handling it and handling it well, but still. Well,the problem is the most worshipped Dev runs assault. So our concerns will fall upon deaf ears. Look at what he proposed for logistics before,a .25 speed nerf to below 300 eHP suits. And look now,an active scanner nerf aimed at logistics. Yet he has managed to sneak in a buff to his preferred class,the assaults. Do you think he would allow any buffs if he was willing to nerf the speed of below 300 eHP suits (which were already slow)? Or buff eHP when he said '240 eHP was fine "? Let's just consider that for a second... -Basics have 60 more eHP -Basics are faster,with better regen -Assaults have 160 more eHP (compared to their racial logistics) -Assaults recently got logistics slots,so 8-9 (insanely OP with their base stats) -Assaults sacrifice nothing,they maintain full speed and stamina -Logistics has 300 eHP on Amarr -Logistics is slower than basics -Logistics has less eHP than basics -Logistics costs more investment than basics -Assault and logistics costs the same So,for the same time and investment as assaults with 400 eHP base. You get to be worse than basics,which take much less investment. But hey it isn't all bad,your fits will only cost nearly 2x as much as a comperable assault. With less offense,less eHP,less speed,less regen,mediocre eWAR,and as a bonus you'll get singled out first every time! Come join logistics today* *Must be a masochist to apply. Tl;dr Don't expect a blue tag,the CCP (that favors assaults) is intentionally pushing logistics to extinction. I don't contest our extreme disparity with other suits , survivability-wise, its why we're here. But if we can't trust in the mechanisms of change working than theres no point in continuing and I for one am not there yet. I see the same things you do, and have been waiting just as long as you for things to be improved. Join me in not salting the ground before we even get to plant something that might grow. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 516	Posted - 2014.11.20 21:22:00 - [97] - Quote I'm behind on this thread, been sidetracked elsewhere trying to keep us from getting ****** and scouts from getting even more stealthbuffs. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 519	Posted - 2014.11.20 23:04:00 - [98] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I think it's even less helpful with the BW mechanic. Placing fallback positions will be a major pain if I can only put out like 4 uplinks with 5 spawns each at a time. ANY tactical position creation, reinforcement, or use will be a major pain with tue BW mechanic, whether its a fallback, a forward, an advanced OR a flank. Positioning will be like checkers, one piece in one direction until opposed and defeated instead of like chess, multiple pieces with different board control capabilities acting in concert together to an ultimate end. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 520	Posted - 2014.11.21 00:02:00 - [99] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I think it's even less helpful with the BW mechanic. Placing fallback positions will be a major pain if I can only put out like 4 uplinks with 5 spawns each at a time. ANY tactical position creation, reinforcement, or use will be a major pain with the BW mechanic, whether its a fallback, a forward, an advanced OR a flank. Positioning will be like checkers, one piece in one direction until opposed and defeated instead of like chess, multiple pieces with different board control capabilities acting in concert together to an ultimate end. I was talking about the "more available links with less spawns." Arguably makes it harder than BW to make a fallback spot. I'd have to drop 3 in the same location to make it viable. Problem, "tactical godfather", is you're sounding like you want to create fallback positions while being pushed back so now you're concerned about spawn counts/speeds, whereas I'm concerned with creating fallback positions before ever having pushed forward in the first place so placement timing is my concern. Checkers vs. Chess. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 527	Posted - 2014.11.21 01:28:00 - [100] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I think it's even less helpful with the BW mechanic. Placing fallback positions will be a major pain if I can only put out like 4 uplinks with 5 spawns each at a time. ANY tactical position creation, reinforcement, or use will be a major pain with the BW mechanic, whether its a fallback, a forward, an advanced OR a flank. Positioning will be like checkers, one piece in one direction until opposed and defeated instead of like chess, multiple pieces with different board control capabilities acting in concert together to an ultimate end. I was talking about the "more available links with less spawns." Arguably makes it harder than BW to make a fallback spot. I'd have to drop 3 in the same location to make it viable. Problem, "tactical godfather", is you're sounding like you want to create fallback positions while being pushed back so now you're concerned about spawn counts/speeds, whereas I'm concerned with creating fallback positions before ever having pushed forward in the first place so placement timing is my concern. Checkers vs. Chess. Not even what I'm saying; also unsure how you could infer that from the statement. Overall, considering the last 24-48 hrs of posts I am questioning your reading comprehension at this point. Not trolling but serious. So, be clearer then in your statements. Every Logistical style that actively supplies a group AND establishes preemptive positioning is hurt by BW limits. That you can't, don't or won't see that tells me you rarely if at all are acting in this manner tactically, which really only leaves you either A) Reacting Logistically on the battlefield, not Dictating Logistically or B) Are just another ammo humper leashed to a heavy both of which explain your problem understanding my problem with BW. Not trolling, but serious as my ability to more than read whatever gets posted in here. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 01:26:00 - [101] - Quote Ah-CHOOO!!! Damn, I'm allergic to this thread getting buried while Rattati has 5 different feedbacks open all on topics integral to the discussion in here... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 02:21:00 - [102] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Problem, "tactical godfather", is you're sounding like you want to create fallback positions while being pushed back so now you're concerned about spawn counts/speeds, whereas I'm concerned with creating fallback positions before ever having pushed forward in the first place so placement timing is my concern. Checkers vs. Chess. Not even what I'm saying; also unsure how you could infer that from the statement. Overall, considering the last 24-48 hrs of posts I am questioning your reading comprehension at this point. Not trolling but serious. So, be clearer then in your statements. Every Logistical style that actively supplies a group AND establishes preemptive positioning is hurt by BW limits. That you can't, don't or won't see that tells me you rarely if at all are acting in this manner tactically, which really only leaves you either A) Reacting Logistically on the battlefield, not Dictating Logistically or B) Are just another ammo humper leashed to a heavy both of which explain your problem understanding my problem with BW. Not trolling, but serious as my ability to more than read whatever gets posted in here. To quote Dr. Watson, no sht, Sherlock! It nerfs everyone else 10x as hard. I can live with that. I'd love to go back to the days when most of the EQ was placed by logis and we were rightfully rewarded. When no duchebags would spawn in on my hard-to reach uplink and crap two of theirs on top of it to steal my WP. Hell, if I could even tell which uplinks were mine in the sea of blue it would be an improvement. Your problem is that you can't look past "I can't do as much" and see how the end result actually benefits us. No, my problem is I won't quietly accept a nerf even if it means nerfing everybody else too "10x as hard". I don't see the end result benefitting when it includes blanket nerfs for all when other options could address the issue, and keep its effects limited to just the issue, without nerfing other worthwhile elements. " Bird in the hand for nothing in the bush". Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 02:26:00 - [103] - Quote And if your response to my response is " No **** Sherlock" then what I'm saying is obvious and patently true. Which reinforces and validates my statement that your idea of "Logistics" is Reactive and centered more or less solely on blobbing with leashed heavies. To which I respond, "Your style is Elementary, my dear Watson. Elementary. " Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 03:44:00 - [104] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: And if your response to my response is " No **** Sherlock" then what I'm saying is obvious and patently true. Which reinforces and validates my statement that your idea of "Logistics" is Reactive and centered more or less solely on blobbing with leashed heavies. To which I respond, "Your style is Elementary, my dear Watson. Elementary. " If you say so. vOv Moving on. lol, actually, YOU said so. Don't get it twisted. ..V, Moving on... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 572	Posted - 2014.12.02 23:33:00 - [105] - Quote Meee One wrote: Just going to add on about rep tools cooldown. I hope the class wide cooldown is significant,because if it isn't,you'll see a resurgence of killer bees. Not because they want to be killers,but because they now have so much more free time. -scans on 30 second cooldown -out of deployables -no one calling for rez -use rep tool? (nope,it's on cooldown) What does this leave logistics users? Their weapon. And as such,logistics users will be forced to change fittings to accommodate this new meta. Knowing there will be times they can't support,they will upgrade their weapon. Which is why the cooldown decrease must be significant. Unless,of course,CCP likes/liked logi slayers and wants to bring them back. Oh, dude. The slayers are coming back. BW has guaranteed it. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 572	Posted - 2014.12.02 23:51:00 - [106] - Quote New Idea: Increase player counts in match to 300 vs 300 so Logistics can be made into the roving supply depots people want just like EVE. Then, 10 people guarding the Logi from all angles at all times can actually happen. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 606	Posted - 2014.12.04 20:30:00 - [107] - Quote Z3dog wrote: Also could we brainstorm some ideas for logis to be able to defend their equipment? For example: Some sort of short range rep tool that makes the equipment around a logi immune to damage. Only effective while the logistics suit is alive and within very close proximity to equipment. I'm down for combat shields. And not a silly bubble generator either, I mean a non-movement interfering, full coverage physical shield that can also be used to melee. We could basically squat and hold against incoming fire, protecting links or rep hives as well as use it to cross open ground to get to a revive as well as use it to cover people coming to our positions for ammo/reps. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 606	Posted - 2014.12.04 20:36:00 - [108] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Since this seems to be the new place to talk about the equipment bandwidth. I would suggest increasing the uplink bandwidth to either 8 or 12 (I think 12 is better personally), and then removing the amarr logi bonus towards uplinks and changing it to something more useful. Uplinks, much like jump drive force projection was in eve, are terrible for the game but they have been around for so long that nobody knows any other way. Death to all uplinks! No, this isn't really that place. Your opinion is noted however and you are invited to stay and join what we have been mostly discussing, Support play and Logistics. I'd recommend at least skimming the previous pages (and bear in mind the dates). Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 606	Posted - 2014.12.04 20:40:00 - [109] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Prevention of death is in all ways superior to assisting a respawns. Best justification for returning sidearms to Logis I've heard all day. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 606	Posted - 2014.12.04 23:39:00 - [110] - Quote Meee One wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Prevention of death is in all ways superior to assisting a respawns. Best justification for returning sidearms to Logis I've heard all day. >prevention of death. Sidearms don't prevent death,they cause it to your enemies. Prevention of death would be something like damage resistance. Causing my teammates' enemies' death prevents those enemies from causing my teammates' death. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 628	Posted - 2014.12.12 20:43:00 - [111] - Quote xXCleopatra FlippantXx wrote: I ran LOGI for 2+ years. I feal i have to stick with the 'CORE REP' to do any fun progressive repping. If you just upped the rep rate and made them prioritize on squad mates(if the coding doesent kill the game). Allso, dont go with the longest range, like maybe have the range from the standard rep on something like a core, that would make them working just fine i think. I allso agree they need a slight EHP bonus and speed but in addition If you guys could add modules that extends the range of the rep tool on cost of a tank fit that would be savvy. If you re balance to make them give less damage then the other classes you can easily evade the risk of combat logi. Maybe boost the passive scan range so they can do some actual logistics too, but you guys tell me if im wrong We generally are already doing less damage than most of the other classes by virtue of those classes being bonused for damage one way or another. All this neutering of the combat efficiency of a suit whose role largely puts it in the thick of combat is extremely detrimental to the class overall. I'm not necessarily there to fight but at any point need to be capable of fighting. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 632	Posted - 2014.12.12 23:36:00 - [112] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: That's all fine and good, and yes I did read the entire BW thread. Remember that it's not meant to be done in isolation, it should be part of a larger logistics revamp as we've been discussing all along. Doing one without the others certainly does not leave us in a markedly better position than currently, but all of them together just as certainly would. And, now, here we are... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 635	Posted - 2014.12.13 00:00:00 - [113] - Quote I propose a new tier of War Point generation: +15-40wp for Logi Guarding. Basically, using the existing Cocentric Circles data add the above modifier to the reward total generated by any teammate who successfully makes a kill while within the Cocentric Circle range of any friendly Logi. The closer they are to said Logi, the higher the WP reward. Part of the major issue in running Logistics outside of a Corp or Friend squad is that the suit and role is made to require what Meee One called an "escort". We need to be protected. Not just by our heavies, but by everyone. And we rarely, actively, are. So, incentivise that. Add a WP reward to defending the Logi. This will not only encourage randomblues to actively protect that sillybluebannana BUT will also help mitigate some of this WarPoint/Leaderboard envy that, while not spoken of directly often, infuses most arguements against Logi performance/reward buffs. 4 frikin months and we can't get any meaningful direct buffs. Maybe we can get something for our teammates instead. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 635	Posted - 2014.12.13 00:19:00 - [114] - Quote Oh, and I finally finished all the back reading I needed to do on this thread. BW implementation has made some swaths of the discussion moot. BW implementation WITHOUT the rest of the equipment and bonusing overhaul has made life real 50/50 out there- We've lost the flexibility we had and have gained...? I still don't like the FatnFastWeaponlessLogi idea. I could see it as a variant, but not the exclusive design. Shield Reppers I'm on the fence about. I understand the armor/shields "lore" that works in EVE but don't really see a reptool niche for it. Now, as an idea for some of the hives that others have pointed out as being redundant or otherwise useless, I can very easily see Shield Regen Hives having a place, much like armor regen hives. Maybe variants that rep shields and variants that override depletion delays/boost rates. Since Hive laying is also the CalLogi forte adding Shield Repping hives seems like a not-so-bad idea to me. Give all Logis sidearms. You, Me and all the rest of us deserve the ability to defend ourselves. The RepairTool having an offensive ability is a great idea, and one that I was real suprised to find wasn't implemented when I first skilled Reppers. As a close up almost OHK (chargedshot NK level of damage/range) item I like it. As a selectable high-volume discharge type item (a flamethrower. YES. A muthafukin' flamethrower) I like it even more. AND, this sort of capability could very reasonably be balanced with the addition of some sort of charge-up/cooldown mechanic. Charging/cooling mechanic NOT being neccessary otherwise. I think thats it for now...besides all the rest of things that have been proposed in here. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 635	Posted - 2014.12.13 00:23:00 - [115] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I propose a new tier of War Point generation: +15-40wp for Logi Guarding. Basically, using the existing Cocentric Circles data add the above modifier to the reward total generated by any teammate who successfully makes a kill while within the Cocentric Circle range of any friendly Logi. The closer they are to said Logi, the higher the WP reward. Part of the major issue in running Logistics outside of a Corp or Friend squad is that the suit and role is made to require what Meee One called an "escort". We need to be protected. Not just by our heavies, but by everyone. And we rarely, actively, are. So, incentivise that. Add a WP reward to defending the Logi. This will not only encourage randomblues to actively protect that sillybluebannana BUT will also help mitigate some of this WarPoint/Leaderboard envy that, while not spoken of directly often, infuses most arguements against Logi performance/reward buffs. 4 frikin months and we can't get any meaningful direct buffs. Maybe we can get something for our teammates instead. I like where this is headed. There was a bonus just applied to being near a letter, slapping it on a logi is awesome. You are right that it adds incentive to protect the logi and give other players the boost that they may feel they are missing from our reps/nanos/spawns etc. .... whatever it takes to make my logi a surviving and valuable resource. Yeah, it gives every mode a sort of " Protect the VIP" vibe, which really is what should be happening anyway. And to all my excellent Corp/Team/Squadmates who already know and are doing this, Thank You. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 636	Posted - 2014.12.13 00:34:00 - [116] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Basically, using the existing Cocentric Circles data add the above modifier to the reward total generated by any teammate who successfully makes a kill while within the Cocentric Circle range of any friendly Logi. The closer they are to said Logi, the higher the WP reward. Because what Dust needs most is higher rewards for Heavy+Logi Blobs. Because what DUST needs is higher rewards period, since higher rewards =higher pay. AND since DUSTs primary feature is that it's a TEAMWORK rewarding game, it would only make sense that the Heavy/Logi blob is well rewarded since it's by far the most evident example of player coordinated TEAMWORK that exists. AND since most randoms don't give two ***** about protecting Logis, maybe a point bonus on top of the support would do it. AND since its an opportunity for EVERYONE, ANYONE, to be able to make more WP, why not? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 636	Posted - 2014.12.13 00:36:00 - [117] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Basically, using the existing Cocentric Circles data add the above modifier to the reward total generated by any teammate who successfully makes a kill while within the Cocentric Circle range of any friendly Logi. The closer they are to said Logi, the higher the WP reward. Because what Dust needs most is to further incentivize Heavy+Logi Blob gameplay. lol, take that argument to the BandWidth discussion thread. Oh...wait a minute... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 641	Posted - 2014.12.13 01:07:00 - [118] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: In competitive play, teamwork is a given. Imbalance is imbalance, and ideas which reinforce imbalance are less than good ideas. Tell that to the Scout Class. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 641	Posted - 2014.12.13 01:16:00 - [119] - Quote LOL after how many months and pages and pages of threads and QQ back and forth about any little thing making them useless? Reread the proposal. Its open to ANYONE. You want some? Come and stay a while. You don't wanna be cool, hang out? Fine then, don't. And don't receive the benefit. Nothing imbalanced about that. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 641	Posted - 2014.12.13 01:23:00 - [120] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: The Scout class is taking their licks; EZ Mode remains attached to the end of your rep gun. Good to know you've gotten a trimshave. Sucks you still haven't realized your need for a haircut. I'm glad you've got your EZMode fingerpoint ready, when all else fails then deflect, amiright? Tell you what. Hows about you endorse ALL the proposed Logi buffs to HP, CPU, PG, Speed, Sidearms, Bonuses and Equipment, WE become the newest OPFOTM for 6+months and when you raise the issue or present viable counter-buffs to other classes I'LL agree NOT to stalk your every last post with some bs reason about why its bad or otherwise the be-all end-all of making us "useless". Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 647	Posted - 2014.12.16 18:23:00 - [121] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ishtellian wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ishtellian wrote: I think all logis should have like a 3% bonus to all equipment use excluding their racial equipment, but than with their racial equipment they get a 5% - 10% bonus per level, this means that specializing will be obviously better but you would still be fairly useful using a scanner with a Amarr logi suit. I think Logis should have a racial defence buff also, alongside a buff to armor regen, Gallente would get a very nice buff to armor regen and maybe even a % bonus per level, Caldari could get a recharge delay reduction or maybe HP increase, Amar could get a HP increase or a maybe even a damage resist bonus, Minmitar could maybe get a faster and more agile suit or shield recharge rate. These could help make Logis able to keep themselves alive without directly increasing their EHP. I dont think even with 5x Complex reps should a suit be able to comepletely tank anyone weapon, but combined with strafing and avoiding damage the suit should have a highly noticeable bonus to its survivability. Ive only read the first few page of comments so sorry if I repeat information. I've offered a couple variations of that in the past and the big concern is that we might homogenize the racial logis a little too much. I like the idea in concept, however, you might be able to find some similar options equally attractive: 1) Give all logis a bonus to repping, just not the same bonus. You could vary it by range or rep intensity; you would need to then create something like a bonus to RE / PE for the Min Logi. 2) Tie different bonuses on cross racial themes. Cal gets hive bonus and a scanner bonus, Amarr gets uplink bonus and rep bonus, Gal gets scans and uplinks, and Min gets uplinks and reps. Basically retain the current racial bonus but add a cross-racial secondary bonus. The key is to give a different or perhaps lesser bonus on the secondary...example Cal scanner would bonus to range not precision, Min uplinks would give additional spawns not reduce spawn time, etc. This also gives each logi both an active and passive equipment type they they are focused on. I like this but if you play Eve at all, doing this kinda kills possible Pirate faction suits in the future, for example the worm is a pirate faction ship from Guristas its caldari bonus is a bonus to shield resist and its gallente bonus is a bonus to missile damage, its a caldari hull using drones heavily and missiles. But I do like the idea of all logis having their own bonus to repping since reps imo should be one of the main jobs, keeping the other guys alive. Maybe Minmatar could get one bonus rep target per suit level, +1 at STD, +2 at ADV, and +3 at PRO, kinda because lore wise, minmitar have huge numbers. Gallente could get bonus to rep strength, they dont need a range icnrease because Gall is usually upclose melting face ( Plasma Thrower please ) Caldari could get a range increase because their generally longer range than the other races. Amarr could give their rep target like 2-5% bonus resist per suit level, because amarr ships have resist bonus in Eve ( not all of them but alot compared to other races ) I do like the active/passive equipment focus for each suit tho. I am passably familiar with Eve. I fly with Agony Unleashed, come visit us in Catch. give ccp ratatti your code and teach him to play, guy thinks dropsuits shouldnt be balanced by eve ships. smh Thats good to hear, he's on the right track then. EVE provides our background lore and plenty of the universes defining elements. However, tying our dropsuit designs too closely to EVE ship designs is a mistake I'm glad he's not making. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 647	Posted - 2014.12.16 18:57:00 - [122] - Quote If PEs need anything its to actually work as Proximity Explosives . As they are they require physical contact to detonate which is what neccessitates seeding the ground with them instead of just planting one. Since they do not detect on Proximity it takes 7-12 explosives to effectively cordon off just one city entrance or bridge mouth. Make them detect on Proximity then start adjusting the dps/payloads. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 657	Posted - 2014.12.23 18:47:00 - [123] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: We should increase the amount of deployables carried. Hard caps on amount deployed and bandwidth have all but stopped spam save by dedicated logis, so why not help logis not need to visit the supply depot every minute or so to refill on links and hives? For that matter, why not have links and hives refill at supply depots? The issue with that option is that you would need to adjust the Logi suits wih a sgnificantly increased BW or they would need to drop the BW down to a base number of 3. Unnecessary. This does not allow the logi to drop more equipment. It only allows him to replace it easier before needing to refit at a supply depot. This. It's a question of increasing max carried, not max active. I haven't found it to be too much of a problem but I have on occasion run dry of uplinks and wouldn't mind another. I would much rather have a BW meter in the HUD tbh. We can manage suit resupply pretty much the way we have been up to this point but having a much better handle on BW capacity would be useful. I think we can all agree that a BW meter would be extremely helpful. Add my vote to doubling max carried and allowing them to be restocked at supply depots.[/quote] I agree, we ( and subsequently our teammates) are best served by the addition of both. Raise max carried for the temporary duration and somewhere in the mid-term transition all deployables to the sheet suggestion. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 658	Posted - 2014.12.30 23:29:00 - [124] - Quote Happy New Year, Logis. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 669	Posted - 2015.01.03 18:35:00 - [125] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching. We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF. Especially since there are some simple quality of life changes that could happen easily and don't really require extensive balance passes such as fixing the messed up slot progression. I hear you guys LOUD and CLEAR. Cross and I are focused on improving the plight of the logi. We get it. On a side note, I'd really like to get the two of you in a squad and speak to you on coms. Let me know if we can work that out sometime soon. Git Er Dun, SMB and Cross!! Worthwhile LogiBuffs+DSCommand5 requirement= Success!!! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 669	Posted - 2015.01.03 18:46:00 - [126] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching. We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF. Especially since there are some simple quality of life changes that could happen easily and don't really require extensive balance passes such as fixing the messed up slot progression. Maybe the issue now is that there are no logi tourists left ( or very few ) and that those that are left are either very good to ok at the role. This probably translates as logis, in some respects, that get very few kills but lots of WP's BECAUSE they understand the role and know how to fit the suits to get the best out of the role. Therefore placing fairly high on the leaderboard and therefore upsetting some of the misplaced epeen of the slayer mindset ? This then results in threads asking for nerfs to logi gameplay. The issue perhaps is the perception as a logi as a WP *****/leech who contributes little in the way of slaying and objective capture. An absurd notion for even the staunchest logi hater that flies in the face of some of the more obvious cons of running a logi suit in a slayer environment yet will gladly accept the benefits without question. Now I am not saying everyone thinks this way, in fact most decent squads are looking for logis for reps, uplinks, hives and scans. Which shows that people understand that logis are a force multiplier. It should be a symbiotic relationship that benefits all players and in most cases it is. Having a logi in squad IS a massive benefit for all in the squad and the team. It does mean that the logis weapon is not always drawn and that they need some protection BUT they can rez you, rep you when hurt, provide spawn points and give you ammo. Seems like a good idea to me and a role I enjoy. Occasionally you will run into extreme examples of logi gameplay. Obviously the 1000+ HP heavy and several logis repping it and each other and also the most recent one the tanked min assault with logi support. However in each case there are several disadvantages and several ways of dealing with this none of which I am going to bother explaining as anyone with half a brain can figure out. A logi should be the one thing a good squad needs as much as the other suits need weapons, not a necessity but beneficial. Some people will not be happy until the logi is castrated completely but will be the first to moan there is no one to rep, rez, drop ammo and provide spawns in game. Go figure !!!! Anyway rambled on enough, just my 2isk. I'm still seeing the tourists abound, especially in ambush. BushLogis, it seems to me, are doing the most to reinforce the "Logis are WP whores" notion since they primarily ONLY rep or pitch links. As the matches are short and focused on killing those end of match leaderboards that list Logis in the top spots with or over good slayers create the easily distorted perception Logistics is ezmode. I've quietly sighed to myself many times while squadded with some random who decides to randomly run a beam then spend the next 7 minutes crowing about their WP take as they do NOTHING besides heavyblob. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 670	Posted - 2015.01.03 19:20:00 - [127] - Quote Meee One wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I've seen not mention of any kind of balance / optimization pass for Logi suits mentioned anywhere and there are too many "big idea" topics such as PC re-work that will likely push back any work on our suits even further. I'm getting pretty frustrated with this. You're not the only one I have become more and more convinced that the opportunity to get even the most basic level of an optimization pass for Logi suits passed when the medium suits hotfix ended up just becoming an Assault hotfix... Rattati seems to have moved on pretty decisively from the topic, distracted by "more important", shinier things. Oh logistics 'had their chance'. It just involved stripping the Amarr logistics of it's sidearm. Remember that? Gal logistics can't get equal slots because Amarr logistics wouldn't surrender it's sidearm. Ridiculous,i know. They act if they are the same suit or something. And every other post about logistics slot balancing always comes down to stripping the Amarr logistics of it's sidearm. It seems CCP will ignore the whole class because of a single suits sidearm,the one described as "being able to deal out its own trauma" aka the only logistics actually meant to kill things. The insanity is on a whole 'nother level. "Nooo!! That'll make Scouts deep breath inhale USELESSSSSSS!!!!!!1!1!" 8::::::::::::::( Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 672	Posted - 2015.01.03 23:50:00 - [128] - Quote Meee One wrote: As a sidenote. Rattati did say they were going to try to make a mass based inertia system. Which means logistics should be second only to scouts in terms of speed and stamina/stamina regen. But that also means any eHP mods are going to have a crippling effect on logistics speed,but assaults it'll barely scratch. So the most expensive suit in the game will probably have its strafe be sub par,because 'logistics shouldn't be able to survive'. As well as have crippling penalties to speed,which were actually meant to hurt scouts,because 'logistics shouldn't be able to survive'. That's if the rules are applied fairly. Remember how he was willing (and almost eager) to nerf logistics speed while simultaneously buffing assault eHP and slots with 0 speed reduction? That alone showed that logistics and assault are immune to the words 'fair' or 'balanced'. The latter receiving the favoritism. Something tells me logistics will still be disproportionately slow with low eHP. And new speed penalties (on eHP mods) will push the class further to extinction. Which is why BW was so readily accepted,because they're about to royally f* the class up. So they force anyone wanting to use equipment to stay in an even slower low eHP suit. My future predicting powers say you're going to see 400-500 eHP logistics moving as fast as sentinels. Or eHP stacked logistics moving slower** than sentinels. Assaults will be moving 1% slower,maybe. Scouts will be unphased. And sentinels will still be fat. Brace for more heavy-logi QQ than ever before! I can't lie about the amount of entertainment I've had and will have as all these little ideas that were proposed to balance scouts just continue to nerf everyone else instead Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 699	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:17:00 - [129] - Quote building... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 699	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:18:00 - [130] - Quote building.... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 699	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:19:00 - [131] - Quote building...... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 700	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:20:00 - [132] - Quote buuuuiiiillldiiiinng........ Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 700	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:21:00 - [133] - Quote ...buuuiiiilllllddiiiiiinnnggggg........ Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 700	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:23:00 - [134] - Quote jesus christ. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 700	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:24:00 - [135] - Quote hammers banging, powersaw squealing Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 700	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:43:00 - [136] - Quote DONE! Page 60, ready for use!! If you'd have told me that it'd be 4+ months, 3+ patches and fixes, 60 pages and we'd still be waiting for basic worthwhile buffs I'd have said...... yeah, you're probably right. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 701	Posted - 2015.01.07 20:32:00 - [137] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching. We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF. Especially since there are some simple quality of life changes that could happen easily and don't really require extensive balance passes such as fixing the messed up slot progression. Maybe the issue now is that there are no logi tourists left ( or very few ) and that those that are left are either very good to ok at the role. This probably translates as logis, in some respects, that get very few kills but lots of WP's BECAUSE they understand the role and know how to fit the suits to get the best out of the role. Therefore placing fairly high on the leaderboard and therefore upsetting some of the misplaced epeen of the slayer mindset ? This then results in threads asking for nerfs to logi gameplay. The issue perhaps is the perception as a logi as a WP *****/leech who contributes little in the way of slaying and objective capture. An absurd notion for even the staunchest logi hater that flies in the face of some of the more obvious cons of running a logi suit in a slayer environment yet will gladly accept the benefits without question. Now I am not saying everyone thinks this way, in fact most decent squads are looking for logis for reps, uplinks, hives and scans. Which shows that people understand that logis are a force multiplier. It should be a symbiotic relationship that benefits all players and in most cases it is. Having a logi in squad IS a massive benefit for all in the squad and the team. It does mean that the logis weapon is not always drawn and that they need some protection BUT they can rez you, rep you when hurt, provide spawn points and give you ammo. Seems like a good idea to me and a role I enjoy. Occasionally you will run into extreme examples of logi gameplay. Obviously the 1000+ HP heavy and several logis repping it and each other and also the most recent one the tanked min assault with logi support. However in each case there are several disadvantages and several ways of dealing with this none of which I am going to bother explaining as anyone with half a brain can figure out. A logi should be the one thing a good squad needs as much as the other suits need weapons, not a necessity but beneficial. Some people will not be happy until the logi is castrated completely but will be the first to moan there is no one to rep, rez, drop ammo and provide spawns in game. Go figure !!!! Anyway rambled on enough, just my 2isk. I'm still seeing the tourists abound, especially in ambush. BushLogis, it seems to me, are doing the most to reinforce the "Logis are WP whores" notion since they primarily ONLY rep or pitch links. As the matches are short and focused on killing those end of match leaderboards that list Logis in the top spots with or over good slayers create the easily distorted perception Logistics is ezmode. I've quietly sighed to myself many times while squadded with some random who decides to randomly run a beam then spend the next 7 minutes crowing about their WP take as they do NOTHING besides heavyblob. I've got to be honest here, I have been known to go solo and logi in ambush but quite I often I will solo in all game modes just to see if I can stay alive and still support. I feel dirty now but in my defence it is with support in mind and not to brag about WP whoring. I must be a little mad as I often prefer to go solo, if I can get in a squad that's easy going then it's cool. Nothing to feel dirty about, brah. Running solo (RandomBlueBerryTheory, I call it) as a Logi can teach you a lot about what goes on that you wouldn't ever be exposed to were you anchored to a fatty. Things like Team Support vs Squad Support, for starters. Its not always a bad thing, running solo. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 774	Posted - 2015.01.28 16:05:00 - [138] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: As a quick update, last word I have is that there will be some Logi love coming in the next hotfix which should be deployed (as I understand it) post patch. All things have been somewhat delayed due to the nature of multi-national holidays combined with coordinating two games on the same server + working with Sony QA (which streamlined or not still takes time). Cheers, Cross squints in the darkness wtf? Is that....no, can't be.....Is that a light at the end of the tunnel? Why do I suddenly suspect it's on the front of a train? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 774	Posted - 2015.01.28 16:07:00 - [139] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 779	Posted - 2015.01.29 18:57:00 - [140] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though. ProMin w/4complex breakers IS fast, still, but it definitely isn't as fast as it used to be. ProMin w/o 4 complex breakers, also, is fast-ish but also isn't as fast as it used to be. "As fast as it used to be" being what I miss about my MinLogis hacking bonus. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 779	Posted - 2015.01.29 22:19:00 - [141] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though. ProMin w/4complex breakers IS fast, still, but it definitely isn't as fast as it used to be. ProMin w/o 4 complex breakers, also, is fast-ish but also isn't as fast as it used to be. "As fast as it used to be" being what I miss about my MinLogis hacking bonus. EDIT: And, yes of course, that it was the fastest possible hacking suit on the block. It's only 5% slower. Like the difference from Hacking 0 to Hacking I. The Min Scout just gets an even greater bonus, thus making the Logi feel way slower. Take a look at the video lee corwood posted. We're talking about 2 tenths, 5 one hundredths, and 2 one thousandths of a second at max skills on a Proto suit. That's nothing, even with the low TTK. meh. You can talk about it that way and I'm glad somebody who had never done it (stacked some CBs on a ProMin) made a video. Regardless, having specced and kept MinLogi from the openbeta and having been fully skilled to Hacking5 for a very long time now, whether the difference is 5% or 500% on paper or film it used to be faster, I miss it being that little bit faster and that's all I have to say on the matter. No harm, no foul, I miss having the old hacks for both the extra speed and the fact they were the fastest possible. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 782	Posted - 2015.01.29 22:56:00 - [142] - Quote That IS a cool video, btw. MinScout w/stacked CBs is just blazin' fast. Damn. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 787	Posted - 2015.02.05 19:48:00 - [143] - Quote I'd like to remind everyone that War Points from the repper are already drastically reduced, with the overall reduction per cycle and the cap per minute. Also that "Logi-ing" and being a "A Logi" is more than having a Logi suit and a repper, so putting further WP limits on the repper isn't really addressing the "EZ WP ****" mentality of the playerbase. And finally that for a Logi to glean those "super-high" WP totals with a beam they must have been either A) in a group that was under constant fire, repping people who were taking constant fire AND/OR B) in a group that was being constantly pushed by an opponent who didn't realize sooner their lack of progress and basically fed kills (and subsequent support points) to the group. neither of which really warrant a re-evaluation of the WP from the beam, since the activity in both is heavy so points should* be high. I personally feel the best fix would be to fix the equipment cycling stall ( I think its a by-product of the limits placed on cloaks) so we can cycle to the repper faster and more consistently as well as fixing the repper lock-on so it too works more reliably and consistently AND THEN allow Proto Flux nades to break the beam. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 795	Posted - 2015.02.05 22:37:00 - [144] - Quote TerranKnight87 wrote: Any changes to logis since i have been gone?. I stopped playing about 3 weeks before the new maps came. Nothing direct to Logis, unless it was ninja'd in. There have been several changes to other game elements as a whole which effect Logis peripherally, like passive scanning changes. Best spot unfortunately for finding that stuff tho would be in the FeedbackSticky archives. We did have our inherent reps returned to us, along with all other medium frames. I'm not sure where/when that falls relative to when you last played though. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 795	Posted - 2015.02.05 23:03:00 - [145] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: TerranKnight87 wrote: Any changes to logis since i have been gone?. I stopped playing about 3 weeks before the new maps came. Nothing direct to Logis, unless it was ninja'd in. There have been several changes to other game elements as a whole which effect Logis peripherally, like passive scanning changes. Best spot unfortunately for finding that stuff tho would be in the FeedbackSticky archives. We did have our inherent reps returned to us, along with all other medium frames. I'm not sure where/when that falls relative to when you last played though. Re-Reads response, looks at thread OP date cries Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 825	Posted - 2015.02.21 18:20:00 - [146] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Ok! Have some tentative numbers for you. Assumption GA Logi bonus to Active Scanner Precision replaced by Active Scanner Cooldown. Active Scanner Overhaul 46 dB Scanners ---> 40dB: Commando beats w/1 cmp damp, Heavy w/2 36 dB Scanners ---> 33dB: Assault & Logi beats w/1 cmp damp, Commando w/2 28 dB Scanners ---> 25dB: Scouts beat w/1 cmp damp, Assault w/2, Logi w/3 20 dB Scanners ---> 18dB: MN/AM Scout beat w/2 cmp damp + proto cloak (on) What do you guys think? I think existing GalLogi bonusing and Active Scans are fine, Stealth scouts who damp and sneak are not detectable (lookin at you,sub 18db GalScouts). The "Cocentric Rings" passive currently in effect does not provide the sort of flanking protection you describe, since the distances are easily covered by all scouts' movement speeds while individual suit turning speeds may or may not save the victim. EWAR right now across frames is more balanced than it has been practically ever, so the root core of that balance should be left alone. Scouts need to behave stealthly and not just "dress" stealthly (add damps)? Working well, as intended. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 826	Posted - 2015.02.21 19:31:00 - [147] - Quote Meee One wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Ok! Have some tentative numbers for you. Assumption GA Logi bonus to Active Scanner Precision replaced by Active Scanner Cooldown. Active Scanner Overhaul 46 dB Scanners ---> 40dB: Commando beats w/1 cmp damp, Heavy w/2 36 dB Scanners ---> 33dB: Assault & Logi beats w/1 cmp damp, Commando w/2 28 dB Scanners ---> 25dB: Scouts beat w/1 cmp damp, Assault w/2, Logi w/3 20 dB Scanners ---> 18dB: MN/AM Scout beat w/2 cmp damp + proto cloak (on) What do you guys think? Well,that looks good but i have a more proactive solution. What if scanners had capacitors like cloaks? Instead of tapping the shoot button and getting constant images for a snapshot motion. How about making scanners more active? Make the capacitor last the entire scan length,and have it where a scanner user can hold the shoot button to get active scans. Or release the shoot button to stop scanning and let the capacitor recharge. Active scans for active information,and snapshot scans for snapshot information. Cooldowns would have to be decreased to compensate the new danger it leaves the user in. That change,with your change would be pretty cool IMO. And Gal logistics can reduce the time it takes to recharge. Pretty sweet paired up together. Dude. They're not broken. Why fix them? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 826	Posted - 2015.02.22 01:23:00 - [148] - Quote Just because the thread isn't littered with blue tags doesn't mean no one worthwhile is listening, just that they haven't responded. Active scans are fine, GalLogi bonuses are fine and Scouts (by and large) are fine. Don't let this thread turn into the Scout wishlist for stats, this whole thing about Active Scans being a problem is RepTool capacitor/cooldown QQ only for scanners. It's bs. The sort of bs that if we start addressing it the limited resources we have will go to addressing it instead of the laundrylist of other things that are actually broken or poorly performing (like base stats). Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 826	Posted - 2015.02.22 01:29:00 - [149] - Quote And I'm kind of amazed you'd entertain the subject at all considering that it stems from the input of a proven purveyor of false or otherwise misleading information. In here. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 826	Posted - 2015.02.22 04:08:00 - [150] - Quote Page 40 something wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177251&find=unread Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey. TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 828	Posted - 2015.02.23 00:14:00 - [151] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Page 40 something wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177251&find=unread Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey. TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request. I came here to try to solve a problem, not to play games with trolls. I don't know and don't care to know whatever it is you're getting at above. If you've something constructive to contribute, I'm all ears, but consider your hostilities ignored. Only problem I'm seeing on the topic is your repeated insistence that it exists as a problem. I'm not trolling, as others have pointed out that thread very clearly stars you putting forth "facts" and "figures" that are corrupt and conclusions just as corrupt. Now, after the the scout class has undergone several minor adjustments, the GalLogi and scanner and bonus are nicely balanced vs. Scouts. Every match has scouts, those scouts are effective when being scouts and it happens without 90% of frames on the field being scouts to combat scouts. This was not the case previously. But this is the case now. IE, theres nothing broken or otherwise determinant that GalLogis or scanners need fixing. So take your "balance proposals" elsewhere . This thread had suffered under their distractionary deadweight too much already. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 828	Posted - 2015.02.23 00:22:00 - [152] - Quote Meee One wrote: Ryanjr TUG wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Page 40 something wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177251&find=unread Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey. TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request. Ehglish Please...... He's saying someone tryed to get eWAR changed and tried to make it look balanced but it actually favored scouts. Gets it. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 828	Posted - 2015.02.23 00:24:00 - [153] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I came here to try to solve a problem, not to play games with trolls. I don't know and don't care to know whatever it is you're getting at above. If you've something constructive to contribute, I'm all ears, but consider your hostilities ignored. Adipem, I think what el OPERATOR is implying is that you need to take your scout QQ about scanners back to the scout thread. It has nothing to do with improving the logistics class and does not need to be discussed in this thread. (If I'm wrong el OPERATOR I apoligize now) What I'm saying is stop trying to derail this thread with garbage that does not directly benefit the improvement of the logistics class. If it is so important to you, then start another thread in F&B and have a proper discussion there. If you want to help the Logistics class, great stay and participate with ideas that benefit us. If you want to QQ about the UP scout class do it else where. Gets it. Except the part about staying in the thread, that invite was rescinded the minute it was shown that the data being presented could not be accepted in good faith. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 16:37:00 - [154] - Quote GalLogi scans aren't OP. Heavy/Logi blobs aren't either, unless you're not addressing them properly. In a game well-established on the premises of counters and counter-counters instead of see/point/shoot the fine difference can be easily forgotten. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 17:27:00 - [155] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aren't the Slayer GalScouts, with their completely undetectable profile signature at some point as equally OP as the Slayer CalScout, with its mind-numbing regen and hitbox capable of dancing throufh OBs once speedtanked? I recall Nyain San switching from 6 of one to 6 of the other, but I don't recall which was FoTM first. All long ago, of course; Slayer Scouts have been dead for quite some time (barring that "Vagheitan" guy from AE, who isn't in AE anymore but is still in a scout frame anytime he takes the field in PC). Yup. fires scanner that illuminates 90degrees out of 360, and like its more powerful relative doesn't show everything. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 17:33:00 - [156] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: GalLogi scans aren't OP. Heavy/Logi blobs aren't either, unless you're not addressing them properly. In a game well-established on the premises of counters and counter-counters instead of see/point/shoot the fine difference can be easily forgotten. If something is balanced against its counter, and then that something is nerfed half a dozen times, which of following is more likely? A) That something and its counter are now balanced B) That something and its counter are now not balanced If someone is a bs'r with an admitted agenda (after not being allowed to deny it anymore) to further their own interests and has been shown repeatedly to be soley focused on the success of those interests which is more likely: 1.They will continue to pursue their idea by whatever bs arguement they can think of on a day-by-day basis or 2. They will continue to argue their idea by whatever bs pursuit they can think of on a day-by-day basis ? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 17:43:00 - [157] - Quote Crickets are deafening. Nurf!!Nuuuurrrfff!!!!! TruthInFeedBack@CCP .com/support for all your QQ ticket needs Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 18:15:00 - [158] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Page 40 something wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177251&find=unread No need for Cross or John's word about your word since your word can be taken directly, as the fraud it is. Keep trying to sell your snakeoil balance but don't feign ignorance and innocence when the educated don't buy. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 18:20:00 - [159] - Quote Pretty Please with sugar on top take your bs elsewhere. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 18:25:00 - [160] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Pretty Please with sugar on top take your bs elsewhere. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 18:38:00 - [161] - Quote Where are we on getting our LAVs back? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:04:00 - [162] - Quote Oh, and the GalLogi seems UP somehow... Maybe it should lose a sidearm slot in favor of a second light weapon slot. Oh and it should run up vertical surfaces. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 833	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:43:00 - [163] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Oh, and the GalLogi seems UP somehow... Maybe it should lose a sidearm slot in favor of a second light weapon slot. Oh and it should run up vertical surfaces. Oh and it should run down vertical surfaces too. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 833	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:46:00 - [164] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Oh, and the GalLogi seems UP somehow... Maybe it should lose a sidearm slot in favor of a second light weapon slot. Oh and it should run up vertical surfaces. Oh and it should run down vertical surfaces too. Oh and it should be while it dual-wields Kubo PlasmaCannons that have over and under-barrel scanners that autoscan in 720 degree arcs at 10db. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 836	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:59:00 - [165] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Considering the slayer logis, the only real problem with that ever, was the cal logi, which had way to good bonuses. Wasn't the Slayer GalLogi at some point as equally bad as the Slayer CalLogi? I recall Nyain San switching from 6 of one to 6 of the other, but I don't recall which was FoTM first. All long ago, of course; Slayer Logis have been dead for quite some time (barring that "Vagheitan" guy from AE). Nope But "Fear" made every logi a target. It is similar to modern profiling: color = crime. Therefore all yellow logis were under scrutiny for the actions of one races class and bonus. CalLogi technically wasn't even "bonused" , it just happened to be able to stack Damage Mods during the time period when Damage Mods had no stacking penalty. DM stacking without penalty + ability to self-logi (its own ammo/rephives) = a Slayer's go-to fit. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 836	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:15:00 - [166] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: How does cost factor into that balance issue? I would agree with you if you were to say, "a Logi equipped with proto gear is too expensive; if I die once I lose money, and this isn't the case with other suits; we should do something to fix this disproportionate expense." This statement makes practical sense. By contrast, a statement to the effect of "... my proto scanner should always scan X because it is expensive" makes no more sense than "... my proto fine rifle should always kill Y because it is expensive". Neither of these statements makes practical sense. Look, Ma!!! Input that isn't total trash!!! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 838	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:48:00 - [167] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: High end injectors should provide temporary damage resistance. All injectors should restore some ammo I could see a small amount of ammo being given... but I'm not there on a a damage resist. Yes, it would be nice and Yes I'd like to have more of a guarantee that when I pick someone up they'll be able to return to battle but personally I think the new shield regen injectors are doing mostly covers that. Really, I guess I'm just worried that a damage resist on pick up would result in less discriminate use of needles and more innappropriate pickups, since people will rely on the resist instead of safety awareness when picking up. What if.... the nanites in the injector had a fixed value, which increased going up the tiers. That value would equal some amount of healing, for ex at a 1:1 ratio. So an injector of 500 nanites did 500 hp of healing. Now, if the clone being resurrected only had say, 375 hp the difference between the 500 vs the 375 (125 nanites) was converted to ammo? Maybe at a different ratio, but still converted. Numbers would need some playing around with (so it works for heavies AND scouts) but on the surface I think something like this could be made to work without it being a major travesty. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 838	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:55:00 - [168] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: REDACTED. BECAUSE. I removed the part you disagreed with. It detracted from the point I was trying to make. The only solution I can think of to "too expensive" would be a steep reduction in the price of Logistics suits (and possibly EQ as well). Would be easier than trying to find a way to increase Logi pay. Actually, my comment was in agreement with your position. The tone/verbage I used I just don't feel like starting my day with. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 838	Posted - 2015.02.25 19:01:00 - [169] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Do you agree that whoever wins the EWAR competition for top spot, whether it the detectors or the hiders, the supreme EWAR position should be the more expensive option? I don't and won't. To do so would require applying the same logic (isk cost = success) everywhere else and from what the HAV threads have produced in that direction....yeah, I'm a no. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 838	Posted - 2015.02.25 19:04:00 - [170] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: ... in agreement with your position. (and thank you!) Just on the cost topic, bud. Don't get it twisted. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 849	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:24:00 - [171] - Quote smh Adipem Nothi wrote: Fact Checking =/= Bashing Logistics Gyn Wallace opined that stealth play is low risk. This is a poor premise upon which to build an argument about balance. That's the point I'd intended to make, gentlemen. Nope. He opined it's low cost relative to its counter. You redirected the topic to risk . Adipem Nothi wrote: Any future Logi rework is going to be subject to an Official Feedback Session. I've been reasonable and polite here discussing hot-button issues with you guys; out there in a Feedback Session, people will not be. Out there, a baseless premise like "stealth play is a bargain" is guaranteed to lose your side standing. Out there, rushing to the defense of a baseless premise (see Pilots) will waste everyone's time and lose your side standing. Out there, "the door is that way" would only serve to lose your side standing. You guys are going to need solid and defensible positions in advance of this Feedback Session. You're going to need thick skin, and you're going to need reasonable and convincing responses to tough questions. One of those questions I've asked here in advance; many responses to that question have been less than convincing and reasonable. In a way, we are practicing; and in doing so, we are shoring up your arguments in advance. Cross is hand's down my favorite CPM, and I have his back should he ever need it. I favor your side by default. But if you were to build your balance arguments atop a false premise like "Scouts have it easy", I'd have no choice but to attack that false premise. It is better for everyone involved if we fight out Scout v Logi here, rather than out there in the Official Feedback Session. If Scouts and Logis were to come to mutually agreeable terms in advance, we could enter that session on the same side of the argument. ^ Another steamy pile of redirection that I'd prefer you stop dropping in here. Polite bs is still bs. Thread title is Input Request: Logistics and Support. It isn't Scouts, How do you Feel? It isn't Hey Non-Support Come and be Heard, it also isn't Practice Closing Arguments Hour. IF you have some sort of input about Support play or Logistics play, have a seat. IF you don't, as politely as possible please gtfo. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 849	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:38:00 - [172] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Gyn Wallace If GalLogi scans were in balance with the pre-nerf / pre-Falloff 1.8 Scout, what are they in balance with now? They weren't. Now, post long-overdue tweaking of Scouts' base stats, they're better. Crazy tidbit, since we're on the subject: Scans are the counter to stealth. They operate intermittently, for short periods. At even their most powerful capability they are still defeated by stealth, since damps win ties and fits are possible which will tie or outright beat the scanner. Scans, as a counter, are countered by what they are intended to counter. wtf is OP here again? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 851	Posted - 2015.02.26 20:20:00 - [173] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Gyn Wallace If GalLogi scans were in balance with the pre-nerf / pre-Falloff 1.8 Scout, what are they in balance with now? They weren't. Now, post long-overdue tweaking of Scouts' base stats, they're better. Crazy tidbit, since we're on the subject: Scans are the counter to stealth. They operate intermittently, for short periods. At even their most powerful capability they are still defeated by stealth, since damps win ties and fits are possible which will tie or outright beat the scanner. Scans, as a counter, are countered by what they are intended to counter. wtf is OP here again? Active Scanners are not the counter to Scouts and Dampeners; Scouts and Dampeners are the counter to Active Scanners. PS: If precision and profile are tied, precision wins (just in case you weren't aware). OK, then. You're right. Scouts and damps are the counter to Active Scanners. And Scouts and damps beat Active Scanners. OH Shnap! Then GalLogi scans aren't OP (since they're counterable by their counter) and your entire premise in here on that subject is void. Next in line! Next, please!! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 851	Posted - 2015.02.26 21:06:00 - [174] - Quote fires Active Scanner through Magnifying Glass and lights cigarrette activates cloak Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 856	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:39:00 - [175] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: I NEED TO FIND AS SCANNING RESOURCE - I don't want to just dump number hunting onto you, I'd rather have some of my own answers. - I remember looking at one. I'll have to find it. Here are two: Borrowed from Barbershop Borrowed from Haerr To the best of my knowledge, Protofit's EWAR values are also up-to-date. So I see you have continued to successfully derail our thread, QQing about the imbalance of the scout. Please for the love of god ignore this poor scout so we can continue on with the logistics and support. If he wants to discuss this he can START HIS OWN THREAD IN F&B, or better yet go to the barbershop where he belongs. This. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 856	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:40:00 - [176] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Here is a merc (Redbleach) who wants to better understand EWAR and EWAR balance from the perspective of the EWAR units opposite his role. As his proposal includes significant EWAR changes, does it not stand to reason that he might benefit from new found pertinent knowledge? "No knowledge is to be despised." - Joseph Needham Again start your own thread and put all this knowledge you speak of there. This way not only RedBleach can learn but so can everyone else, or are you afraid of what the rest of the community will say to you? I will grant that the information is interesting and a good read but it is derailing this thread. I will even give you a title for your new thread. " Gal Logistics bonus VS Scout in ewar and how to properly balance it." Then everyone in the community will have the opportunity to give and receive information, not just the individuals interested in this thread. I am not against discussing this topic intelligently but lets make a thread specifically for it. It does not effect 3/4 of the logistics team because only the Gal Logi has the bonus. So your discussion needs to be moved from an overall discussion to a more specific discussion in its own thread. Than as RedBleach Gains more knowledge about the subject he can change his proposals and have a specific thread to reference when he needs specific answers. This. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 857	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:21:00 - [177] - Quote Quick note about the "counter" to "scouts" in scanning- 1. More than 1 scout frame is able, while properly modded, to defeat scans entirely. That is to say, able to beat all scanners all the time outright. 2. More than one scout frame is enabled when scanned to know that they've been scanned via a nice fat warning message on their screen that says, " You have been SCANNED". SO, when they've been scanned they can change what or how they're doing what they're doing before failing or being killed. 3. This terribly OP uberscanner that wreaks devastation across all games and modes and eviscerated a whole genre of gameplay here has the shortest lightup time (10-15 seconds) the narrowest arc (~45-¦) and the shortest range (100m). (not in front of a stat spreadsheet so figures may be a little off, but those are the gist of them) Even fully loaded with 4 of these things the top suit (GalLogi) for using them is still only able to scan those narrow arcs for those short periods. AND SCOUTS CAN STILL BEAT IT. 4. STEALTH, like any other weapon we have in here is open to everyone, ANY suit can be used to lurk n beast. Scout frames, by design are the most powerful in this regard. And among the scout class certain frames are better than others in more conditions for it. Kind of like our Uplinks, anyone w/eq can carry them, anyone w/eq can pitch them BUT if you want the fastest possible links out then you'll need to use the AmarrLogi. A slow, cumbersome logi not particularly well-suited out of the box for link running, btw. ALL scouts are more than stealthy as hell vs. all other frames. AND they can mod the fit so that they outright defeat their counter, the "OP" Proto GalLogi Proto Active Scans. The GalLogi bonusing, Cocentric Falloff AND Cloak stats ALL cumulatively create a SUM total of something resembling balance between Scout frames and all others. Scouts refused to tolerate other outright stat nerfs that were proposed to balance their OP bs, suggestions like going single equipment, going sidearm only, being made slightly slower, having outright fitting restrictions on hp mods etc. So, instead, the suite of tweaks that occurred were created and applied, scout OPness came down a notch and overall balance became better. NOW the effort to try and rollback the balancing is afoot and trying to interject itself here because we're on deck for buffs so a patch or fix will happen that could be an opportunity for scouts to regain their utterly dominant position among frames overall. ** THAT *, I say. BTW, had a DOM match vs Mr.GoBang there last Monday. I spent the whole match scanning him, his club and his team. He ultimately sg'd me twice (from his Cal std bpo), went 10-3 on the leaderboard and his team won the match. Thos uber OP GalLogi scans didn't kill him, didn't unhack anything, didn't freeze him in place or make him totally defenseless (he still had his speed, his tank, his gank and his wit) and didn't drop an OB on him. In PC we see scouts, full pro no halfassing it scouts, all the time. They are game changers and playmakers (as they should be) AND they defeat scanners ALL the time, hiding on catwalks raining re's, spamming their own scanners* , dropping links, running-and-gunning, ripping off speed hacks left and right etc so this crap about scans being too OP is exactly that: crap. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 857	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:27:00 - [178] - Quote Any more discussion on Scouts and their supposed "UnderPoweredness" needs to go elsewhere now please. Bleach, we finally got this guy to stop with the bs in here but you brought it back up. If you want to sample his koolaid and try to mix it with yours do it at his place, the company he keeps there will make you feel better about diluting yours. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 857	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:40:00 - [179] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If it was a "reasonable" requirement then, it certainly is not now. I believe it appropriate to lessen pressure on today's post-nerf, post-falloff MinScouts by 1 slot. ... That said, adjustments to GalLogi active scans may prove in the end to be the better path. GalLogi scans aren't just "OP" against MinScouts; these scans also negate any/all value of running damps on any suit other the Scout. Thankfully, balance calls aren't mine to make. Its nice to see that you're in a thread about buffing the weakest class in the game, arguing for buffing scouts that aren't under-powered, nerfing scans that aren't OP, AND buffing assaults... because assaults really need a buff right now... So its really just the heavies that the scanner is supposed to pick up.. oh and other logis? /Sarcasm. Scans were not balanced when scouts were ridiculously OP. Scans lost then, scans still lose now. But you want scans to lose against assaults too? I'm coming around to the opinion that you're really here to troll. The more I think about that survivability discussion, the more absurd your suggestion that scouts are higher risk or less survivable. Entire behaviors have arisen to protect expensive, vulnerable logis, while routine behaviors have similarly arisen around taking insane risks with the very robust scouts (despite their low HP). But instead of acknowledging that its the behaviors rather than anything inherent in the suits that has scouts and logis dying at any kind of similar frequency, you argued that "risk" isn't about isk loss. You're obviously not stupid, Adipem, but its becoming increasingly difficult for me to engage with you as though you're arguing in good faith. That you can't acknowledge that aggressive scout behavior rather than their suits (except to the extent that the low cost of the suit incourages that behavior) is what makes them die as much as logis, is a giant road block to taking anything you write seriously. Logis simply do not have an effective play style that reduces their risk of net isk loss for a match as low as what scouts have available to them, even if the scouts is a soloist and the logi has a squad. Even moderately skilled scouts, who decide to hunt me down, can almost guarantee that I'll go negative isk for a match, while they risk so little isk they can still easily go isk positive. There is no similar vulnerability for scouts. Scouts (right behind vehicle pilots) are among the lowest risk suits, unless your playstyle is insanely aggressive. The scout suit isn't particularly vulnerable; the playstyle some scouts prefer is. I've ranted about this enough, so I'll close with one final point: The biggest coward in the game, Duna, jumps out of his tank when its about to blow, and runs back to his redline to call in another tank. He works hard to keep his deaths as low as possible. What suit does he prefer? Not an assault, not a heavy, not a commando, and certainly not a logi. He runs a scout, because ITS the most survivable and lowest risk suit in the game. He jumps out, cloaks and runs away. And routinely gets away. That's not a vulnerable "high risk" suit. Its absurd, and frankly a little insulting to everyone's intelligence for you to suggest otherwise, just because some of the most aggressive players prefer using scout suits because they're so cheap while still being very lethal. He isn't in here in good faith, he's in here campaigning to have his propaganda accepted. If we buy it in here he can point to it from other area of conversation as tacit support for his cause. That cause being scouts as the most powerful of frames under the most diverse of conditions. Scouts as they were, scouts as scout zealots such as he feel they deserve to be. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 858	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:14:00 - [180] - Quote If ain't broke, don't fix it. Mind the dates on posts and their relative timing to subsequent fixes and patches. Just because this thread has required us keeping it alive does not warrant it becoming the scoutbuffideaspitballing room. The buffs that Logis are due can be done without undoing the general balance we currently have, provided we don't allow the interjection of the unneccessary. Current overall balance being largely agreed upon as good as has been seen in a loooong time. We get our buffs and truthfully, IMO, CCP will be able to focus less on this constant frame-balancing situation and more on generating new content . New vehicles, new weapons, new maps, new modes, new frames etc etc etc The dog and pony show has to stop somewhere. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 862	Posted - 2015.02.28 23:30:00 - [181] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Hurr durr, I'm a scout so no idea why I'm in here but notice me! I think Logis are fine as they are. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 862	Posted - 2015.02.28 23:34:00 - [182] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: [Hurr durr, I'm a scout but have no idea why I'm in here except to say Notice me! and...] ...I don't play logi too much... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 862	Posted - 2015.02.28 23:37:00 - [183] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That isn't my chart. Is English your first language? The possessive "your" doesn't only mean creation or ownership of something. The easiest example of this is "your country." In this context "your evidence" in support of your point, doesn't need to be created or owned by you. "Your chart" the one YOU are citing as an authority to indicate that commandos are the weakest suit instead of logis, undermines every other argument you've made in this thread to avoid the idea that scouts are still OP compared to logis. Its not true that logis are underpowered because of your chart. As Pokey's pointed out, its a very weak authority for making any conclusions about suit strength. But for you to cite it anyway, while it contradicts your other assertions about the relative strengths of logis and scouts, suggests that you really aren't here to argue in good faith. You're making a sham argument. Instead of conceding when you're caught making terrible arguments, you change the subject, or make another different sham argument. That kind of "shotgun" (not a pun about shotgun scouts; but a broader description of a rhetorical tactics that avoids a single best argument, like a rifle bullet, in favor of many tiny bad arguments, like shot gun pellets) approach to a discussion invites people to have a low regard for your thoughts and opinions. You can not be taken seriously until you concede what is obvious to anyone who isn't a scout/assault zealot: Logis are the weakest suit in the game. Gal Logi scans are not OP just because assaults can't beat them and scouts actually need to fit appropriately to beat them; that is balanced, not OP. And finally, when you make a bad argument, you need to be able to concede its weakness, or withdraw it entirely. Its that last failure that makes you look more and more trollish over time. ^^^^^^Gets It^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 862	Posted - 2015.02.28 23:50:00 - [184] - Quote SO, no more than 10 posts after this: el OPERATOR wrote: He isn't in here in good faith, he's in here campaigning to have his propaganda accepted. If we buy it in here he can point to it from other area of conversation as tacit support for his cause. That cause being scouts as the most powerful of frames under the most diverse of conditions. Scouts as they were, scouts as scout zealots such as he feel they deserve to be. comes THIS: Apidem Nothi wrote: We could (theoretically) take a gamble and recast the Logi as support + recon by buffing its passive scan strengths. When was the last time a Scout "scouted" anyway? The Logi already has the best scan range; this range could be augmented with the best scan precision. In terms of gameplay, the Logi at the heart of a blob could provide his blob with omniscience via shared passives and even greater resistance to flank/surprise attack. This design would undoubtedly cause balance problems, but if "blob warfare" is a desirable model and/or deemed necessary , we could work around the balance issues by tweakingoverhauling and renaming Scouts. Obviously obvious is obvious. And obviously does NOT belong here. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 862	Posted - 2015.03.01 00:01:00 - [185] - Quote So when's the rest of the Nothi group gonna move in? The Logistics and Support thread doesn't have enough scouts crying in it yet about reduced direct combat ability and how stealth is difficult if maybe someone has a 45 degree sweep-area scanner that you'll need to be stealthy around to beat. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 867	Posted - 2015.03.01 20:53:00 - [186] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Huh. So, figured I'd stop in after a month or so, aaaand... Yeah, nothing different. No blue tag, no meaningful new input from CCP but a ton of new irrelevant trash from Apidem, and El Operator is still making way too much sense to be ignored saying "I understand what you're saying, do not agree, this is why and you should take those ideas elsewhere since while perhaps worthy of discussion (to some) this thread isn't the place" every time a scout suffering from buyers remorse for trying to not be balanced by simple adjusment but instead by a multitude of minor effects whose realized they should have just considered and consented to the former posts something. sigh See you in another couple months I guess... Oh Hi John, how's that koolaidgut treating you? Is "Popular Opinion" not as nourishing as the malnourished masses claimed it would be? Sucks bro, tried to warn you but wtf do I know, I'm "just some troll". GL and HF out there Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 867	Posted - 2015.03.01 20:58:00 - [187] - Quote Meee One wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Oh dear, I'm sorry I stumbled on your private thread and started ruining your discussion by talking about balance. I suppose it would be best to never interact with the logistics community then, as you are clearly the only one capable of understanding the deep, intricate balance problems at the heart of Dust. I guess the idea that logistics should be buffed is a terrible one when it's coming from somebody who doesn't play logi 24/7. Balance is not a one way road. It's not some thread where you try to whisper into the ears of the CPM and shun anybody who isn't part of your sekret klub. It affects everyone, so I suggest you get used to the idea of criticizing an argument based on its merits, instead of shooting it down because you don't like who's saying it. >The barber shop. Hypocrite. Nothing but net from the halfcourt line. Swiiissh! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 867	Posted - 2015.03.01 22:05:00 - [188] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: A)Nah, the last thing we need is another overhaul. We're very close to balance as is, no need for radical changes which could take months and many iterations to fix. B) I'm dubious as to whether or not logis actually need to be looked at much, but I don't play logi too much so I guess I'm willing to take the word of more experienced players. C) If I were to make changes it would be to a) reduce the cost of equipment across the board D) and b) tiericide logi dropsuit equipment slots so STD suits could fit as much equipment as PRO suits can. Does that sound reasonable? A- We (The actual Logis and Support players) aren't calling for a full overhaul either, just some minor and long-overdue survivability buffs and possibly a rework of our bonusing structure across our class. "Overhauling" that would take months to vett and fix is being proposed by SCOUTS trying to refold their already completed months-long balancing overhaul and undo it. B- We, the actual Logi and Support players, do . And we've been trying to iron the details out on it for months. The process is slow and just made slower when it's constantly innundated with irrelevant to the discussion input from individual players whose input has already been proven multiple times over as being focused on other objectives or from individuals who "don't actually play [the role]". I don't understand you having no respect for your own word and "take the word of more experienced players" on this topic and, seriously, just staying out of it. C- So, no opinion except equipment should be cheaper. Not going to disagree but also not going to pretend that is a Logi buff when it's a buff to anyone that uses equipment making total suitcosts cheaper. Scout suggests something they benefit by while refusing suggestions other frames will benefit by. I'm so suprised by this that....I'm lying, I'm not suprised. This has been the norm for scouts in this thread. D- AND last but not least this. Since you guys (BShop scouts) have yet to propose anything that isn't a buff to yourselves this one-áI have trouble seeing this any differently. If Logis have their full equipment carryload available at STD then basis is there to allow Scouts their full equipment carryload at STD too, the merit of which (scouts being 1 equip until PRO where they'll be 2) has been broached as a balancing idea elsewhere. I'm inclined to argue for removal of that second equipment slot from scouts altogether and its reassignment elsewhere (Mandos?) again, since you assholes won't stfu in here and have made it clear that you no longer are playing in support capacities, and don't want to. points to current scout overhaul proposal in the BS hop trying to cement scouts as undetectable under all conditions assassins Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 867	Posted - 2015.03.01 22:25:00 - [189] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: [Hurr durr, I'm a scout but have no idea why I'm in here except to say Notice me! and...] ...I don't play logi too much... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 867	Posted - 2015.03.01 22:34:00 - [190] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Meee One wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Oh dear, I'm sorry I stumbled on your private thread and started ruining your discussion by talking about balance. I suppose it would be best to never interact with the logistics community then, as you are clearly the only one capable of understanding the deep, intricate balance problems at the heart of Dust. I guess the idea that logistics should be buffed is a terrible one when it's coming from somebody who doesn't play logi 24/7. Balance is not a one way road. It's not some thread where you try to whisper into the ears of the CPM and shun anybody who isn't part of your sekret klub. It affects everyone, so I suggest you get used to the idea of criticizing an argument based on its merits, instead of shooting it down because you don't like who's saying it. >The barber shop. Hypocrite. What of it? The Barbershop has a couple crazies like any sub-community, but it also has an excellent track record for generating and vetting solid, well-balanced ideas. Those who think the thread is about "Scout Superiority" aren't paying close enough attention; the majority of Scout nerfs implemented between 1.8 and present originated in the Barbershop. What he said. We get plenty of visitors and don't vie for any kind of special developer attention. Hell, even our corp is accepting open applications. You're welcome to stop by anytime you like to discuss or shoot the shit with us. That's about as open as it gets. At the end of the day, this is a community for a video game. We're all here to have fun and socialize. There's no reason to act all exclusionary and hostile over something as harmless as that. And at the end of the day this thread is NOT a GD-moved-to-the-LR thread for peenstroking and bs'ing, this thread is for CPM input on Logistics and Support play. The playground and all things acceptable in it is found elsewhere Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 01:44:00 - [191] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Adipem Nothi and Mr. Goo Yeah the whole scan thing I'm still mulling over. Gears are grinding and I'm not completely set on any one thing, and balancing it all will take some time. STILL working on the rest of what I see as a more current proposal. Playing with numbers, ideas and definition. Thanks for the support all Don't forget to play the game too. Data analytics is fun and all but its really all about the game. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 03:42:00 - [192] - Quote Psuedogenesis wrote: More psuedo input. Don't lecture me, kid, trying to bait and make what I've said seem obtuse OR twist this discussion into being about me. Your bud Apidem has been in and out of here already running the same obfuscation when his "suggestions" are shown to clearly be self-serving. If I'm questioning the content and timing of what you've contributed it's because the content and timing is justifiably questionable . Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 19:29:00 - [193] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: I want to try and figure out exactly the issues are but I don't have time to read through all 72 pages of this thread so, again What am I missing? For perspective, the logi stuff I have access to and use is an ADV minlogi with proto repper, advanced nanohive, advanced drop uplinks, and advanced nanite injector. Actual current experience in the frames at all levels, usage of all the equipments with all the frames at all levels as well as usage in all of the available gamemodes at all levels (pubs, FW and PC) at least As well as a prioritized position of playing as a Logi most often as opposed to some other role with a Logisuit on-hand for reward supplementation. Since, y'know, you're claiming qualified and worthwhile input suggestion generation for the entire role and class. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 19:33:00 - [194] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Alright, I've gone ahead and hidden el operator's posts for now, since he doesn't seem interested in talking about logistics at all. Sorry for being melodramatic, I just want to actually talk about logis. So I've actually played a fair bit of logi (mostly during the days of chromosome) and I've been playing them a lot more recently but I'm still pretty foggy on what the actual balance issues are currently. Since they aren't combat suits their effectiveness has to be evaluated completely differently from how you would most other suits. I want to try and figure out exactly the issues are but I don't have time to read through all 72 pages of this thread so, again, sorry if you've heard all of this before. - A properly fitted logistics suit costs way more than a properly fitted combat suit - Logistics suits curve out poorly from STD to PRO because of the number of equipment slots - Logi bonuses are lackluster and too focused on individual equipment - Most support equipment has been nerfed without compensation to the logi suits themselves - Logistics is harder to get into than other roles because of the sheer SP investment required - Nanite injectors are much less useful than they used to be What am I missing? For perspective, the logi stuff I have access to and use is an ADV minlogi with proto repper, advanced nanohive, advanced drop uplinks, and advanced nanite injector. If your going to honestly try to give input you need to at least look at the spreadsheet proposals Cross has linked to on page one and you also need to look at the most current proposal that RedBleach has done. If your not going to waste our time and yours this will give you a good idea of where things stand now. Of course we don't have any blue tags to give us an idea of what they are thinking. Not meaning to be harsh, but if you don't look at whats all ready been done your wasting a lot of time rehashing what has been talked about. I welcome your input as long as it stays in balancing the Logi class and I do mean balance not creating another problem that takes months to fix. I think Cross's and RedBleach's proposals are real close to what is needed. Im not sure that I agree with RedBleach's current Ewar metrics for the Logi, IMHO they take too much from the scouts. But everything else is in a good place. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Gets It^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^° Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 19:49:00 - [195] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: I know it may have already come up, but for the last few months, what little I've been playing is logi, and one thing I could get behind is increasing the equipment slots for STD and ADV. (Note I mean Equipment, not Mod slots). Obviously alter PG/CPU a little, though my Advanced logi wouldn't need much more. Though other than that I've been finding my logi to be pretty darn good. That's just a suggestion for a buff for the below proto suits, I'm not going to get into a discussion on the proto suits as I only run logi for the extra ISK and thusly don't run proto. The reasoning you're using for wanting the full pro equipment slot layout available at std is the exact reason it shouldn't be : "You only run Logi for the extra isk" This will sound rude on the surface but it's not a fabrication to descibe your use of the frame as "whoring" which is behaviour we do not want to enable or entrench in any update on these suits' stats since it has been overwhelmingly proven and agreed that a big part of the problem with the Logi class is its abuse by "WPWhores", those individuals solely focused on their own WP take and not focused on their squad/team's force multiplication. There is NOTHING wrong with the STD frame having fewer eq slots than the PRO especially for new or training logis whose ISK/SP investments are still being made as they still learn the role, the equipment and the various usages relative to the circumstances. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 19:57:00 - [196] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Will do. I had assumed the OP was out of date but this looks good. Re: Nanite injectors, has there been any thought given to making them like the BF3 revive system? As in player hits you with the revive tool and then you've given the option to respawn? At least then you don't have to rely on people asking for pickups to use your injector. I know Rattati's got a soft spot for the battlefield series too. It has been discussed, most of us like it, it wasn't us that asked for the X-if you want picked up. We all wanted what you suggested, it just makes more sense. Was a bit of a flashpoint forum/feedback-wise when it happened, LogiWPWhores basically burnt out the public with bad (still under fire) and dirty-needle/dirty-repper (low repair so as to "milk" the max poss WP) pickups. Public Opinion is that the existing mechanic works best for the other roles . Water under the bridge, train that has already left the station, ship that has already sailed...sort of thing that anyone who's actually been engaged in Logi use for more than a whim is familiar with. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:08:00 - [197] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: A big part of the why logis NEED a buff of some kind is because I almost never have a match that doesn't suffer from either poor match making or outrageous expense. The precise matches where it matter most to run good gear, shouldn't be a nearly guaranteed large isk loss. To a lesser extent, everybody suffers from the same problem. Its particularly nasty for vehicle pilots and logis. Better matchmaking could affect today's "proto standard" for the reasons you've outlined above. In a close and hard-fought match, deaths are frequent and the majority of those who field proto gear tend to lose Isk. Today, good fights are unfortunately the exception. Should they become the norm, the wallets of those who always field proto gear will take a big it. There will no longer be 3 stomps per good fight, so there will be less opportunity to recover Isk losses. The "proto standard" may not change immediately, but as Isk losses mount, it could with time. This is a conversation of MatchMaking, NPE and Player Culture evolution which while completely worthwhile to have isn't going to be resolved with Logi buffs (except in a couple instances I've described previously) or in this thread. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:14:00 - [198] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: That delay doesn't indicate a lack of development resources. That indicates that CCP thinks there are enough people running logis, and bearing the costs of running logis, so that they just aren't a priority for getting fixed. That sense that, whatever a blue tag might say (if one ever shows up in this thread), CCP's actions indicate that they really don't think this is much of a priority, may be why you'll see a less than welcoming response to scouts coming here trying to derail the thread. Exactly what I've been saying the last couple of days in here and have said repeatedly multiple times before in this thread when it happens: The process is long and time-consuming already so "input" from people who are not or do actually run the role is next-to-worthless except for the most cursory sort of insight. Especially if that cursory insight can be traced back to ulterior motive that has nothing to do with improving Logis. It's not flaming, it's due diligence. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:16:00 - [199] - Quote hammers hammering Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:20:00 - [200] - Quote saws sawing Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:21:00 - [201] - Quote Presto, page 75 ready for use!! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 21:38:00 - [202] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: [Redacted] 10/10 would read again and hope for sequels. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 871	Posted - 2015.03.03 02:16:00 - [203] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Adipem Nothi and Mr. Goo Yeah the whole scan thing I'm still mulling over. Gears are grinding and I'm not completely set on any one thing, and balancing it all will take some time. STILL working on the rest of what I see as a more current proposal. Playing with numbers, ideas and definition. Thanks for the support all Don't forget to play the game too. Data analytics is fun and all but its really all about the game. Yep, getting trashed. I've played inverted my entire life. But, recently played a game for a month where that wasn't an option, so now playing standard I' cant shoot for crap anymore... trying to figure out what to do to find my groove again. Maybe go through the Mass Effects and regain it. My KDR is just going to the toilet. I've been playing this for years so I have Thousands of deaths but I've seen it go from a 1.8 to a 1.4... maybe now a 1.2 and I don't consider myself decent at a shooter unless I can maintain a 1/1. Then again, the way this game plays and is not all about KDR my beliefs are being challenged... I just don't want to change. Oh, help me my empress Its, a hard-knock life! For! Us!!! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 894	Posted - 2015.03.04 19:09:00 - [204] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: In light of upcoming HMG nerf, I'd like to formally suspend efforts (my own included) to "nerf GalLogi scans". I'd expect a decrease in PC Heavy usage to trigger a decrease in PC Scout usage. Assaults seem to be the superior slayer option in the absence of Heavies (see Ambush), so it stands to reason that they'll fill the void. It is possible, however, that the opposite will happen; that PC Scout usage will incline as PC Heavy usage declines. I personally believe that GalLogi scans are too strong, but they might be the only thing holding Assault Lite back from taking PC over (again). Emphasis on "might be". We can't possibly know until after the dust has settled following the HMG nerf; for this reason I think it too great a risk to simultaneously nerf GalLogi scans and Heavies in one patch. So let's wait-and-see for now. If PC Scout usage inclines as PC Heavy usage declines (the unexpected), then keep those scans up until subsequent balance passes are made. If, on the other hand, PC Assault usage inclines as PC Heavy usage declines (the ideal), then efforts to "nerf GalLogi scans" can be safely resumed. You never had a worthwhile basis for your suggestion anyway. Both Scout AND Assault use will incline some, Logi a little bit. But you're ******* crazy if you think Heavy use will decline that significantly in PC. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 894	Posted - 2015.03.04 19:23:00 - [205] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Meee One wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Meee One wrote: The main problem with costs of equipment is that there's such a huge gap in tier performance. BDR-8:75 on a single target Six Kin:88 on two targets. Thats 13x2 hp/s loss. On weapons the change in damage is maybe 1 point per tier. I think ADV should get 2 targets,with the Pro having higher reps. It would make ADV not feel as worthless by comparison. ------ I'd like any possible updates if available. you forgot the price comparison BDR-8= 8070 ISK Six Kin = 2163 ISK Thats why when I try to cut costs I use the Core Repair tool. 70 HPS 13215 ISK It is worth the extra 5000 ISK for the two streams. Which is why ADV needs 2 as well. No other class is forced into Pro gear for such dramatic performance increase. But i just thought of possible bonuses for the repair tool for the other races. Min-High rep amount (Current) Amarr- Armor Damage resistance Cal-Shield damage resistance Gal-increased weapons efficiency (slower heat build up,faster reload,lower kick,etc.) Since nanites run the world,why not have the individual logistics be able to focus them towards additional functions. With this it becomes more desired to have more logistics,rather than just Min. Good Points All :) Particularly Tiering of equipment and the performance gaps is stupid huge, but careful how its phrased as a DEV may decide to nerf reps to make them more equal ... more to add to my logi list of things to do :) ADV 2 Streamers is a good idea. I like the ideas for the added effects of the streams, could be really awesome. I question the Gal from a lore standpoint of valuing life and all that stuff - a damage increase doesn't seem to fit them... if we are just spitballing ideas I wonder what else.... I could see Ammo resupply in there as well. I hate to be the DebbiDowner on this one but truth be told if dualbeaming filters down into the adv eq group then a restructuring of WP accrual for repping would absolutely need to be rewritten. Enabling duals on the lower rate/rep beam units will just create even more payout/WPWhoring by tourist users, since they'll be able to dirty needle and scab-rep not one poor sucker at a time but two . DualBeam is a PRO level feature best reserved for individuals willing to pay the price to give their team that best possible level of support dualing creates. I'd actually like to see us NOT tinker too much right now with the actual individual equipment stats/interplay outside of whats been proposed about use/replenishment already, focus on getting solid suit buffs in, the bonus spread handled then some gametime/playtesting with the new stats then, if neccessary we open Pandoras Box of Cans of Worms and start sifting through equipment stats. More than anything else because eq now is pretty well established, so in the overall equation of gamebalance keeping it a "constant" allows us to more precisely define what we will be redefining as "variables" with a better final result. The more things we change all at once the exponentially higher the odds of creating major imbalances that in fixing cost us other gains we may make. Kinda like Adipem in here, sour his class lost advantages they had and should have kept but lost because they weren't willing to KISS. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 894	Posted - 2015.03.04 19:56:00 - [206] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Appendix to Post 1491 Having given this further thought, I'm hesitant to ascribe one-way cause and effect when a confluence of factors may be at play. If PC Scout usage inclines as Heavy usage declines, the GalLogi may very well play an active role in that incline. This outcome depends largely upon whether or not dampened Gal/CalScouts make for a better slayer than a permascanned Assault. If so, would it not stand to reason that battlefields permascanned at 21dB might be to blame? Should the 21dB permascan be lifted, would the Assault become the superior slayer? I don't know the answers to these questions, but I think them good questions to ask. Regardless, I stand by my position that is likely a bad idea to nerf Heavies and GalLogi scans simultaneously, whether or not both are OP. That sort of incline would be ascribed as "counter-interplay" and actually be exactly what should happen. Sub21db scanning (which is what we're actually talking about here) becomes "lifted" it doesn't actually do anything for the Assaults. It helps scouts. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 895	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:03:00 - [207] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If so, would it not stand to reason that battlefields permascanned at 21dB might be to blame? If people running assault suits start shifting to scout suits to avoid scans, that does not suggest that scans are too strong against assaults. It suggests that scans are too weak against scouts. How unsurprising that you would get that backwards. Even if not explicitly advocating to nerf logi scans, you have a knack for framing an issue as though they're OP, even in circumstances that suggest that scans are really under-powered. Let's play this out ... Assumption: GalLogi scans are UP; Scouts are OP. Scenario: Heavy Blob meta changes on account of HMG nerf. Instead of an increase in Assault usage, we observe an increase in Scout usage. The best response to the OP Scout is to buff UP GalLogi scans. Now, instead of everyone but Scouts always being scanned (like today), everyone including Scouts are always scanned. If everyone is always scanned, why would anyone run a squishy, dampened Scout? OP Scouts suddenly become UP Scouts, with nothing having changed other than the strength of the GalLogi's scans. Next move: Nerf GalLogi scans. And nerf them hard enough for dampened Assaults to beat permascan and compete with Scouts; anything less, and we're back to where we began. Which is why where we are currently and what we have makes for tentative balance. Scans can scan, and fully invested stealth can stealth. If people could just find it in their ego to stfu and grow a pair the stability could be preserved and other developmental initiatives could take place. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 895	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:08:00 - [208] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Appendix to Post 1491 Having given this further thought, I'm hesitant to ascribe one-way cause and effect when a confluence of factors may be at play. If PC Scout usage inclines as Heavy usage declines, the GalLogi may very well play an active role in that incline. This outcome depends largely upon whether or not dampened Gal/CalScouts make for a better slayer than a permascanned Assault. If so, would it not stand to reason that battlefields permascanned at 21dB might be to blame? Should the 21dB permascan be lifted, would the Assault become the superior slayer? I don't know the answers to these questions, but I think them good questions to ask. Regardless, I stand by my position that is likely a bad idea to nerf Heavies and GalLogi scans simultaneously, whether or not both are OP. That sort of incline would be ascribed as "counter-interplay" and actually be exactly what should happen. Sub21db scanning (which is what we're actually talking about here) becomes "lifted" it doesn't actually do anything for the Assaults. It helps scouts. I've been running quite a 'bit of Assault recently; in fact, I smashed your face 2-3 times just last week while field-testing Assault mk.0 + Shotgun. Or was it Assault gk.0 + Shotgun? Either way, I can assure that matches where "You've Been Scanned" reads constantly on screen play differently than matches where it does not. Something about the bad guys always knowing where you are. If that team-wide intel works well with red-dots in pubs, I can only imagine how well it works with seasoned vets in PC. No worries on "smashing" me in lolpubs in your mk0/SG fit, I write anything like that off as the lolpubstar protostomp scrub behaviour it is, especially when I've been mainly (as I have been the last several weeks) working on my assault game so was most likely in a STDBPO(dragonfly)toxin fit. gg Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:41:00 - [209] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Which is why where we are currently and what we have makes for tentative balance. Scans can scan, and fully invested stealth can stealth. What we have now are competitive battlefields permascanned at 21dB. Whether or not that "makes for tentative balance" is debatable. There is a distinct absence of interplay and options for non-Scouts. You keep dropping buzzwords like "permascanned" but theres nothing "perma" about scans, except in situations where the scanees keep exposing themselves to the scanner. Scanner getting you down? try gtfo of the area OR maybe doing a little RECON and greasing that evil scanner demon guy. I definitely notice a lack of option generation or utilization (htfu) from you . The PC scout community? The lolpub and FW groups? not so much Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:44:00 - [210] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Meee One wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Which is why where we are currently and what we have makes for tentative balance. Scans can scan, and fully invested stealth can stealth. What we have now are competitive battlefields permascanned at 21dB. Whether or not that "makes for tentative balance" is debatable. There is a distinct absence of interplay and options for non-Scouts. But if you have your way scouts will be undetectable,ever. Because if assaults can beat scans scouts could much more easily. If I had my way, Assaults could beat what is presently 21dB permascan at a reasonable investment of 2 complex dampeners. Scouts would beat what are presently 15dB periodic scans at an investment of 2 complex dampeners (+cloak:on in the case of AM and MN). This would be far from "undetectable ever". Then go find or make an Assault base profile lowering thread and sell your line there. Scouts dampened currently beat the strongest scanner used by the strongest suit. You get that? THEY. BEAT. IT. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:46:00 - [211] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: lolpubstar protostomp Stomps or stomping are Dust at its worst in my book. I run solo far more often than not, and I was solo at the time, field-testing proto assault suits (recently respec'd into three of them). It isn't protostomping if you're solo, and if an OSG squad got pubstomped by a soloist, the soloist is not to blame for that. FullProto fit in pubs is Protostomping, period. You are not part of the solution, in other words. not sure what OSG is, in this context. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:13:00 - [212] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: You keep dropping buzzwords like "permascanned" but theres nothing "perma" about scans 1 GalLogi running multiple Creodon Flux scanners can illuminate an entire city socket at 21dB. Scans are up far more often than they are down, and they are shared team-wide. Add a second GalLogi (if needed) and see the city permascanned. Outside of PC, permascan can also be observed in Ambush matches with/against Nyain San (and their equivalents). One GalLogi is sufficient to illuminate an entire match. This is far from a fluke; it can be observed all day, every day in every match they play. CreoFlux doesn't scan at 21, even w/GalLogi bonus. Stack those ******* up, have 3 f'n guys in there and you still won't have the whole place "permascanned" AND, AND (!!) all that "permascanning" is STILL defeatable by a properly fitted Stealth suit. I'd apologize for NyainSan having gaped you in an Ambush match, but the thing you're forgetting is that IT'S AMBUSH. Gaping is what goes on because there's literally nothing else to do. The mode is premised on the idea that one team has AMBUSHED another. And I'm not in Nyain so if you want an apology from them you'll have to get it from them directly. If you need I can probably get you in touch with their leadership, maybe. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:15:00 - [213] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: not sure what OSG is, in this context. You're right, and thank you. Confused Cap Acq with OSG for moment ... it was you and a squad of your guys. Will fix my post. Dude, if you pubstomped some of my guys I thank you for it. They need that **** sometimes. Though, if you didn't Win the actual match you didn't stomp a damn thing w/e the final leaderboard said. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:18:00 - [214] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: CreoFlux doesn't scan at 21, even w/GalLogi bonus. Math Says: 28 dB + 25% GalLogi Precision Bonus = 21 dB * Please see protofits if you don't want to believe my math. My bad, full proto GalLogi hits 21ish Properly damped Proto Scouts still beat it, everyday in MH. I know because I use it and it falses often. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:23:00 - [215] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: . Scouts dampened currently beat the strongest scanner used by the strongest suit. You get that? THEY. BEAT. IT. "But you can beat me" is not an indication of balance. My Assault Rifle can beat Heavies. This doesn't mean that HMGs are not in need of tuning. No, its an indicator of interplay, which is a condition for balance. Just like OverPowered is a condition of NO interplay, the OP is OP always which is what makes it OP. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:30:00 - [216] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: . Scouts dampened currently beat the strongest scanner used by the strongest suit. You get that? THEY. BEAT. IT. My Assault Rifle can beat Heavies. This doesn't mean that HMGs are not in need of tuning. Does mean that you continue to show a tendency to draw conclusions from poor or incomplete data tho. Your AR vs Heavies has very little place in a comparison of the HMG vs anything else. If anything, taken at face value, that your AR beats heavies at all (which implies a DPS output similiar to the HMG) would indicate that your AR probably needs some tuning. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:35:00 - [217] - Quote Meee One wrote: And you are showing equipment envy,obviously because of those 2 equipment slots. So i've a solution to that. Remove 1 equipment from scouts and give it to commandos. That is the sort of idea that the more I use my light frames and my Commandos the more it just seems better and better. I think too that with the empahsis coming around to doing some rework on Mandos this could actually get some traction towards review. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:44:00 - [218] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Dude, if you pubstomped some of my guys I thank you for it. They need that ** sometimes. Though, if you didn't Win the actual match you didn't stomp a damn thing w/e the final leaderboard said. Your words (not mine): el OPERATOR wrote:** lolpubstar protostomp It was an Ambush match, and it was very a close one. Lots of guys were in proto gear, but noone got protostomped. I noticed your name right away and set out to kill you as many as possible. If I recall correctly, I got you 3x and your squad won. 1. When you're me and play like I do, you stop worrying about being shot after the very first time it happens. 2. I am the guy who is not silent in or out of corp on the Scrub behaviour that is protostomping pubs. 3. If you saw me in a bush match at all in the last few weeks with a squad, let alone a corp squad, its an anomaly. More likely is I was doing my RnD (std assault) in bush and corpmates (in a separate squad) were MU'd into the same battle. 4. Only 3 times? Come at me, bro. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 897	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:57:00 - [219] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: CreoFlux doesn't scan at 21, even w/GalLogi bonus. Math Says: 28 dB + 25% GalLogi Precision Bonus = 21 dB * Please see protofits if you don't want to believe my math. My bad, full proto GalLogi hits 21ish Indeed it does. If your thinking up to this point was based upon a higher number, I understand now better why you've been contentious and obstinate in your responses. No harm, no foul. GalLogi 21dB Active Scans Prox - 60m, 45-¦, 15 sec visibility, 10 sec cooldown Creo - 100m, 60-¦, 7.5 sec visibility, 15 sec cooldown Flux - 200m, 90-¦, 12 sec visibility, 30 sec cooldown Qua - 100m, 60-¦, 30 sec visibility, 40 sec cooldown These are the source of 21dB permascan. Assaults have to run 3 damps to beat them. LOL My "obstinance" stems from my experience in running those scans, and seeing them be defeated. Often. My "contentiousness" stems from my experience in you running in here making claims, like that GalLogi Scans are these super OP murderrays, when the facts on the ground are otherwise. Will good scans scan assaults and bad scouts? Yes, and they should. Will they scan damped Assaults and properly damped Scouts, in most scenarios. No, and the would and should of that is debatable. Debate that for the most part is closed and I (regardless my opinion on the existing results) don't see the need to reopen since, as we have it currently, there is interplay of ewar between medium frames which is the road to complete balance. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 898	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:02:00 - [220] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: 4. Only 3 times? Come at me, bro. I joined the match late! Believe me, I tried my very best to hunt and kill you from the moment I saw your name. O.o reported for griefing XD I'm usually pretty easy to find, PC district defenses are actually your best bet. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 898	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:05:00 - [221] - Quote Though in PC lately I've been doing more Mando'ing than anything else. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 898	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:24:00 - [222] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: there is interplay of ewar between medium frames which is the road to complete balance. [/i] There is no more interplay today than there was with the Passive Scans of past builds. Either run a heavily dampened Scout Suit or be constantly scanned. The only thing that has changed is the source of the constant scans. Except A) the scans aren't constant and B) they aren't passive, moving around the field 360-¦ with the "user" and C) the lowest possible precision is still higher than the lowest possible dampening. You do realize that if you've been scanned entering an area you can back out and try from a different direction, right? And with the speeds scouts move at you'll be in a good spot to figure roughly where your (bright yellow non-cloaked) scanner is before it even recharges, right? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 898	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:41:00 - [223] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Though in PC lately I've been doing more Mando'ing than anything else. Its okay, I like a change of pace too and truthfully my corp has hired in recent months several raw and refined talent Logis who need and deserve the experiential opportunity PC provides. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 905	Posted - 2015.03.05 00:21:00 - [224] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: My "contentiousness" stems from my experience in you running in here making claims ... Now this I can relate to. Nothing quite like a yahoo popping into the Scout thread to tell everyone there that they're doing it wrong. Guess its entirely possible that I'm being that yahoo here in your thread. Then again, it is also entirely possible that talking EWAR balance to GalLogis is like talking AV balance to a room full of Pilots. I'd like to think this debate of ours here is yahoo-free. Whether or not we agree on anything at the end of the day, we've been relatively good at keeping cool heads and getting the facts and figures straight. Confirmed: You are a yahoo. /thread Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 905	Posted - 2015.03.05 01:16:00 - [225] - Quote And as "bad" as I may have ever been towards you and your brand of booboo I don't think I'm even close to some of the vitriol that starts flying around between pilots and AV. see what I dun thar??!?!!!? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 913	Posted - 2015.03.11 21:22:00 - [226] - Quote I'm just going to take a run at the last page or so, there's new input in- HP- This a given (evidently), we need more, agreed. Sidearms- Leave my AmLogi alone and give one to my Cal. And cpu for that Cal, btw. Slot Parity- I'm still a no on this, IMO slot differences between Logi and Assault frames reinforce not just the differences in the suits' roles but also in their fitting needs. Which is a good thing. Capacitors- **** no. Never. We already have Bandwidth which limits how much eq we can use at once, as well as fixed nanite counts which limit the output of hives AND hard cooldowns after use for our active equipment. For ex. even if I don't scan an area for the entire time that I could (snapshot) my scanner still becomes inactive and cools for the full cooldown period. This is functionally superior to gameplay than a capacitor system that would allow me to "pepper" an area with "snapshot scans" almost ceaslessly but for the momentary gap in between while the capacitor "recharges". Bandwidth Avail Meter Visibility- Totally overdue, belongs in the HUD. That it wasn't included in some fashion at the point of BW rollout speaks volumes about the lack of full idea vetting at the development level. Not to crack too hard on Ratt/CCP, but wtf ppl? How did you not realize the need for that AND after posting the idea and the deployment intent how did you ignore the droves of players that pointed out the need for one? Bandwidth in general never should have been released without it. I think thats it, flame away! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 914	Posted - 2015.03.11 22:33:00 - [227] - Quote Almost forgot, bring back the being repaired glow or create a new indicator for repairees. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 920	Posted - 2015.03.12 21:21:00 - [228] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I'm just going to take a run at the last page or so, there's new input in- HP- This a given (evidently), we need more, agreed. Sidearms- Leave my AmLogi alone and give one to my Cal. And cpu for that Cal, btw. Slot Parity- I'm still a no on this, IMO slot differences between Logi and Assault frames reinforce not just the differences in the suits' roles but also in their fitting needs. Which is a good thing. Capacitors- **** no. Never. We already have Bandwidth which limits how much eq we can use at once, as well as fixed nanite counts which limit the output of hives AND hard cooldowns after use for our active equipment. For ex. even if I don't scan an area for the entire time that I could (snapshot) my scanner still becomes inactive and cools for the full cooldown period. This is functionally superior to gameplay than a capacitor system that would allow me to "pepper" an area with "snapshot scans" almost ceaslessly but for the momentary gap in between while the capacitor "recharges" or having a "capacitor" fueled bottomless well to spam CoreNades from. Bandwidth Avail Meter Visibility- Totally overdue, belongs in the HUD. That it wasn't included in some fashion at the point of BW rollout speaks volumes about the lack of full idea vetting at the development level. Not to crack too hard on Ratt/CCP, but wtf ppl? How did you not realize the need for that AND after posting the idea and the deployment intent how did you ignore the droves of players that pointed out the need for one? Bandwidth in general never should have been released without it. I think thats it, flame away! I think you and I have a different understanding of how capacitors might work, because refilling nades is wack! I believe the capacitor would work with active and infinite equipment. Bandwidth takes care of product placement. But should broadcasting cut into capacitor energies? A little I think. Bandwidth just means we have the availability to maintain communication. Sending that signal is something else. Active modules (future) and active equipment like the scanner, reptool, and cloak (shield bubble, miasma bubble etc, in possible future) will have an effect on the capacitor, each will take a sustained portion. Maybe even weapons or the additions to weapons in the future. While each item has its own power-source or workings it needs to connected to the suit to work. But their initial activation and possible sustained activation may drain resources. So if there is a capacitor of 50 for a logi and a Scanner takes 20 upon activation with a recharge time of 3 per second once it is drained the scanner just wont work unti there are enough resources available. whether that be 1 scanner or 4. Meanwhile if a reptool took 15 to activate it would be a new formula to decide to scan and then rep or decide that 2 scans were needed and wait for the ability to rep. Maybe it's a buffer with current CPU so that running a high capacitor suit meant keeping all equiped stuff at a low cpu level, meaning that to have a super scanner one could wear very little in the way of gear. I'm not saying its perfect, I'm just saying that it stops the scan spam with a soft solution. Obviously peppering is a possibility but if it took 20 regardless it may not be worth it. Yeah....what can I say? I am steadfastly opposed to every rendition of capacitor addition I've seen so far, between bandwidth, nanite limits and already existing active equipment cooldowns capacitance is a redundant limiter that I for one am not interested in ever having to deal with. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 920	Posted - 2015.03.12 21:39:00 - [229] - Quote Meee One wrote: How about a new variant of hives and uplinks? All capacitor based. Instead of hives being infinite,how about a 'tactical' version whose refills are capacitor based? Hives: Throw down a hive. Arm cloak/RE detonation prompt comes up to turn it on/off. Press the button. Sends out a pulses to refill allies. Can be done until capacitor runs out,but it does refill. Benefits: -'infinite' refills -Invisible to scans while not active Drawbacks: -lower amount deployed at a time (max 1) Uplinks: Throw down an uplink. Arm cloak/RE detonation prompt comes up to turn it on/off. Press the button. Allows respawns. Can be done until capacitor runs out,but it does refill. Benefits: -'infinite' spawns -Invisible to scans while not active Drawbacks: -low spawn amount (3-5) Then,apply Cal and Am logistics bonuses. Presto,tactical equipment. Without nerfing others. Thank You but No Thank You. Nanite limits are fine. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 921	Posted - 2015.03.13 17:12:00 - [230] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Off topic for just a 'bit: ... Reducing cooldown would very likely worsen today's problems with permascan. ... This is the wrong place to complain about your invented "problem." Again with the distractions... The simple truth is that there is nothing OP about the most precise scans having a small chance of picking up the stealthiest scouts. For you to suggest that scans are OP in the current system, where the most precise scans have ZERO chance of picking up the stealthiest scouts, simply is not reasonable. Over the past couple years, I've pointed out dozens of balance issues here on the forums. I did not invent a single one of them, and pretty much every single one I've pointed out was eventually addressed and resolved. I don't waste my time making stuff up, and I don't appreciate your implication that I would. When there's a problem my department, I do everything I can to study and fully understand the problem. Until the problem is resolved, I brainstorm with other subject matter experts to hammer out and vet various solutions. I'd like to think that Cross would do exactly same when there's a problem in his department. 7 Scans need work. Cross needs to know that scans need work. Whether or not you remain to be convinced (or intend to remain willfully ignorant of the facts) is of no consequence. Scans still need work. Maybe Cross has (along with most of us) realized you for the "yahoo" you are in here so he subsequently ignores your "input". Check your numbers dude, you're quoting at least one error and have repeatedly. Doesn't exactly help your cause when anyone who actually uses or does what you are describing can look at your numbers, and see the error(s). Scouts, especially now with the addition of super-hops, need to have viable counters. This includes scans. This is what we have now, after much prolonged kicking and screaming from scouts such as yourself. If, as you've begun to claim now, your real interest is for the medium frames ('think of the mediums 'cries) then go start a thread about medium frame profiles. Meanwhile, this venue here, for the millionth time, is NOT an appropriate place for your ever-continuous misinformation campaign. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 921	Posted - 2015.03.13 18:49:00 - [231] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: [quote=el OPERATOR] So ... there's an error in my numbers but you don't know where it is? Not doing your homework for you is not the same as not knowing how to do your homework for you. Truth is you have a bad conclusion because it's based on bad data. Pointing out that you have bad data is all I need to say. If you aren't capable of vetting your own info, that you choose to present, that you choose to use to justify your conclusion and try spreading anywhere you can find an ear for it while it's bad isn't my problem, it's yours. My problem is that for a guy who claims to be such an infallible resource of all things broken your conclusions are crap, because your data is crap and you're too invested in the convincing of people of the legitimacy of your [bad]conclusion to realize it. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 921	Posted - 2015.03.13 19:05:00 - [232] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: My "contentiousness" stems from my experience in you running in here making claims ... Now this I can relate to. Nothing quite like a yahoo popping into the Scout thread to tell everyone there that they're doing it wrong. Guess its entirely possible that I'm being that yahoo here in your thread. Then again, it is also entirely possible that talking EWAR balance to GalLogis is like talking AV balance to a room full of Pilots. I'd like to think this debate of ours here is yahoo-free. Whether or not we agree on anything at the end of the day, we've been relatively good at keeping cool heads and getting the facts and figures straight. Confirmed: You are a yahoo. /your steamies you keep trying to float in this thread Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 921	Posted - 2015.03.13 19:07:00 - [233] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: [quote=el OPERATOR] So ... there's an error in my numbers but you don't know where it is? Not doing your homework for you is not the same as not knowing how to do your homework for you. Truth is you have a bad conclusion because it's based on bad data. Pointing out that you have bad data is all I need to say. If you aren't capable of vetting your own info, that you choose to present, that you choose to use to justify your conclusion and try spreading anywhere you can find an ear for it while it's bad isn't my problem, it's yours. My problem is that for a guy who claims to be such an infallible resource of all things broken your conclusions are crap, because your data is crap and you're too invested in the convincing of people of the legitimacy of your [bad]conclusion to realize it. Says the guy who didn't know until last week that 21dB scans existed. Would you like me to find the post? You'll have to pardon me for not taking you at your word on this. idc what you take so long as you take it out of here. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 923	Posted - 2015.03.13 22:00:00 - [234] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: ... facts and figures ... What you have there is me being polite. You spent two weeks debating and defending GalLogi scan precision without knowing the precision of GalLogi scans. Or caring enough to even look it up. "Oh. So the 200m / 90 degree scanner is 21dB. Hmm. This whole time, I was defending the Focused scanner ... the one with the narrow angle and huge cooldown; it couldn't possibly permascan anything, so I thought you were making stuff up. My bad. " Would've been nice to get something like this from you. But instead, I get a 1.7-Spkr-like "everything is still fine ... go away ". And now you want to call me out on non-specific "bad data" ... LOL So we can add to the continuing list of errors of yours here the idea that there's a "debate" going. Your conclusion is flawed on several levels, most of which have been explained multiple times, in multiple ways by multiple people to you. There is nothing in what you've raised as "input" to debate; The conclusion is worthless, debating it is just as worthless. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 923	Posted - 2015.03.14 02:16:00 - [235] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Pretty clear I'm wasting my time here. Good luck getting yourselves buffed. o/ You're welcome back anytime you have something worthwhile or relevant to discussion in here. If it's a QQ, veiled threat or another completely misleading and misrepresentative of reality conclusion based on incomplete or otherwise incorrect data you'll be better off refining your salespitch in GD. GL w/the myfib hooey o7 Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 928	Posted - 2015.03.14 23:44:00 - [236] - Quote I'm A-OK with seeing bandwidth and the conditions it creates disappear. If not removing it completely I don't see buffing bandwidth limits for one class and not everyone. More bandwidth for all, I say, or no bandwidth for anyone! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 931	Posted - 2015.03.19 00:01:00 - [237] - Quote Hey, look a blue tag!! Over there, in the vehicle qq threads Don't forget to lol @ the active "permascanner" threads on the way Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 942	Posted - 2015.03.23 02:14:00 - [238] - Quote Sooo....where are we at with this stuff, Cross? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 942	Posted - 2015.03.23 20:45:00 - [239] - Quote lol "blueberries need to learn somehow" Amen. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 942	Posted - 2015.03.26 18:05:00 - [240] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: So, if the Logis get a small HP buff, swap speeds with the Assault frames, and attain better equipment bonuses; will people come back yelling about Slayer Logis? Assaults, Heavies, and Scouts will still be better slayers, imo. How does everyone feel about forcing equipment slots to be filled to make a fit valid? This is the direction Rattati took with the Madruger and Gunlogi, by forcing them to have small turrets. Could help ward off any die hard slayer logi QQ. I definitely don't think we should swap speeds with assault frames, they should be faster, we just shouldn't be as slow as we are. Base tank, gank and speed should all be better from the other frames, we just need our base to be close enough to keep up. I'd rather not see a full equipment fitting requirement for us but if there had to be I'd much prefer that it just be a slot used requirement versus some of the preload garbage we see on the bpo's. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 943	Posted - 2015.03.27 20:09:00 - [241] - Quote The Dark Cloud wrote: Gonna throw this in: Change the cal. logi to be a shield logi and introduce a shield recharger tool to finally fill the gap between armor and shields. Nobody uses the Cal. Logi simply because it has the worst bonus on it and "buffing" the nanohive bonus wont help. It needs a 100% rework and be capable to support players that have shield tanked suits. And if you say that would be OP then how about we remove remote armor reps and replace the minlogi bonus to remote explosive damage? Seems fair to me. CalLogi and its bonus are awesome , especially with frontline combat groups reinforcing positions or flanking and doing the same. The existing bonus at proto ceates hive bubbles almost the full width of city socket streets . Give it a sidearm and its missing cpu and if later on there's a shield tool address that, then. While I like the idea of Logis being bonused for REs (therefore, I'm assuming also PEs) I personally would not want to trade the MinLogis existing rep bonus for them. If anything, add it on to the Amarr (the most potent of the AV Logis) and then spread it across to the others in whatever decending or equalized fashion. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 943	Posted - 2015.03.27 20:28:00 - [242] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: So, if the Logis get a small HP buff, swap speeds with the Assault frames, and attain better equipment bonuses; will people come back yelling about Slayer Logis? Assaults, Heavies, and Scouts will still be better slayers, imo. How does everyone feel about forcing equipment slots to be filled to make a fit valid? This is the direction Rattati took with the Madruger and Gunlogi, by forcing them to have small turrets. Could help ward off any die hard slayer logi QQ. I definitely don't think we should swap speeds with assault frames, they should be faster, we just shouldn't be as slow as we are. Base tank, gank and speed should all be better from the other frames, we just need our base to be close enough to keep up. I'd rather not see a full equipment fitting requirement for us but if there had to be I'd much prefer that it just be a slot used requirement versus some of the preload garbage we see on the bpo's. I'm of the stated view that Logi should be positioned between the Light frame and the Assault. Now what that means as to details I'm open about but I would actually support swapping speed with the Assaults. As has been shown repeatedly mobility effects the value of many support actions at such a profound level that the light frame line of suits can often be more viable as support even without skill buffs simply because of their enhanced mobility. Besides that if the Assault is going to be the more tanked medium frame (which seems reasonable) then making logi both more fragile and less capable of GTFO when they're outmatched seems like a good way to keep the role crippled. If you can't fight and you can't run and you can't really hide what do you do besides die? I see no reason why the Assault should be the medium frame with the better stats in everything aside from equipment slots, in fact in that context I see no way that the internal balance of medium frames can avoid being broken. 0.02 ISK Cross Don't get me wrong, you get me scout speeds I'll take them. However the minute that happens it'll be a high-likelihood situation that every slayer in the game will begin running a Logi because they'll have the speed. The real speed buff we should be looking for should be for Movement versus Sprinting. We should WALK faster, since with a repper we can't sprint, but not neccessarily RUN faster. And when I mean Assaults run faster I mean (gonna use some random numbers here) if the Assaults' sprint speed is 7m/s, then ours is 6.85m/s. They're technically faster and across a long run they'll outpace us BUT we're still right in there with them for a bit.If the Logi wants/needs more then its mod time. Now, our stamina pools and regen periods should be way more effective than scouts or assaults and the combo of the two (speedbuff w/the stampool+regen buff) would get us where we should be. EDIT- Thinking this through some more I see how it may just be easier for all involved to just swap those speeds (the Assault and Logi) for sprinting, scouts will still be waay faster anyway. I still don't think its the best idea and that walking speed buffs should really be what we're after BUT whatever. More than anything else I just want us to avoid getting overbuffed, subsequently nerfed and finally ending up post-nerf worse than we were prior to buffing. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1010	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:43:00 - [243] - Quote Putting on page 1 for some GD folks who were asking about logi stuff. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1039	Posted - 2015.04.28 17:26:00 - [244] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: How fcking hard is it, really, to account for a sidearm? Particularly when the players in question have long showed a willingness to give up more than it's objectively worth? Give me a break. Well put, John. Give ALL the logis sidearms, parity achieved! Give just the Amarr and Caldari sidearms, parity achieved! Take the Amarr sidearm OR look to further nerf the most UP class in the game in any other way more* , gross revenue drop will be achieved! Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1039	Posted - 2015.04.28 17:29:00 - [245] - Quote btw, anybody have a TL;DL for the 2 hour clearing session there? Just overall highlights and relevant points-unless it's a 2 hour convo solely and specifically on Logis, in which case I'll make 2 hours for it. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1040	Posted - 2015.04.28 22:13:00 - [246] - Quote ns, right? Only "ballistic" I remember was Meee One (rightfully, I might add) sounding off about the speed reduction. Everyone else for the most part was like,"What? No. Dumb. Next?" And instead we got bandwidthed. Bandwidthed because "spam" and "lag", neither of which was solved by bandwidth limits. Today? Bandwidthed the mail. Hope it works, between the matchmaker and the lag Dust feels less like a game and more like some twisted VR sim of being a member of Scientology. Couple levels more and I'll be ThetaPro and get to read the holy mail (only for 30 days) about Katu the Imprisoner freeing us all. For only 10000000000000000000000000000 jillion AUR. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1114	Posted - 2015.05.13 04:37:00 - [247] - Quote Shiyou Hidiyoshi wrote: Dear, ugh logi, things... I request two things sweethearts 1. Thoughts on the scanner (because you logis use them more than any other class), do you think they are too strong, weak, spammed too much, last too long, should have ammo, blah balh blah? 2. Over 80 ***** pages yeah no, what is the TLDR version of any scanners discussions that have occurred in this thread or elsewhere? Personally, I believe scanners are too strong. In pubs and PC one or two people have the team lit up the whole game practically. EWAR is a very powerful thing to have as seen in the past with Scan514 (which still happens), Cal scout passives, changes to EWAR, cloaks, etc. I think scanners should have a bigger draw back for what they do but I have no experience with scanners so I am not going to go around declaring what should be done. I probably should though because in order to be accepted into the forum neckbeard cult, I have to show some level of ignorant bias opinion. Yoshi, baby, its like this in here mostly: 1- Scanners are fine. If you've got the "You've been scanned" blues its time to vacate the area and flank wide from a different direction or tell that uber l337 GalScout assassin on your team to get to quit ***** around playing like an assault and kill the thick reddot in the yellow underwear standing still without a gun in his hands. 2- Best idea so far (and I don't think it was in here) is Sgt Kirk's about having the farthest (and widest) edge of the beam have a falloff similiar to the cocentric circle edges passive scans have. Search his posts or ask him. Since I'm here, did I miss the entry to the ReduceLogiPGThinkTank too? Hate registering for these things late... seats are all taken, half the required reading isn't available anymore unless I photocopy the pages from the reserve copy in the library and the whole time I know a 1/4 of the early enrollees in chairs are gonna drop by the time the first test comes. Dammit, my fault but still... Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1114	Posted - 2015.05.13 05:57:00 - [248] - Quote ^cpu mod load change jacked my fits. Crisis averted. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR

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