That's actually a key point to not overlook... my base speed is adequate (Cal Logi mostly) but the ridiculously low stamina pool and regen is a big pain in the a$$. Speed is the domain of the scouts but I see no reason why Logi's can have high level base stamina and assaults split the difference.

insted of hp buff why not damage reduction bonus?

Also, with the latest hotfix if anything has changed your feedback due to the altered context please note that when posting so that we can properly track the effects of the hotfix process regarding this topic.

Thanks
Cross

Perhaps if we can get the LLAV back in you'll have that option, or at least more of it

Ok, none said it yet, I m surprised. It looks like I have to say it, dont blame me for proposing it.

Only sidearm logis!

"Oh no what an idiot""gtfo""blablabla die blabla"

But think about it...
The main problem is logi's ability to survive. That is why you want to buff logis hp or their regen/speed.

But you are afraid of slayer logis, you are afraid the forum will cry for a nerf.
So we have to give logis a good survivability but to we have decrease their firepower.

Giving logis only sidearms will let you buff them (Ehp or regen stats) and avoid the problem of slayer logis at the same time.

Is it that stupid? It is not that logis will be completely useless in combat. Having more survivability would let them do their job (support) and still be effective in gunfights (with more defence and less offence) and dont forget that sidearms can be deadly as other weapons!

Not unless ya make Mass Drivers sidearms. But I'd guess pagl1u M is a scout and doesn't like logis being able to fight back with the only weapon truly effective against them.

I said something EFFECTIVE against scouts.

Blast, my failure to detect sarcasm has foiled me again.

I think you might have some unhappy minmatar logis then

Full suit respecs you say?

It isn't CCPs fault you took those refunded points and went into the wrong suit.

Lesser bonuses are fine,but full isn't.

If this happens i'll want a suit respec so i can go back to Gal,where my survival rate is higher.

Survivability needs to be addressed one way or another. A smaller hit box and more speed would work. More EHP would work too.

I also strongly feel that logis' precision should be lowered to 40. This would enable logis to get their precision under 24 by fitting two complex PEs. Under 24 is low enough to detect non-dampened cal/gal scouts with proto cloak. Scouts could still get under this passive scan with one complex dampener. This way logis could sacrifice tank to have a chance at detecting incoming scouts--a valuable support role--and scouts would face more pressure to commit to dampening.

Ah cross, CROOOSSS!.

If logis get hp buffs, please forward it that it should be relative to the racial philosophies.

Ill cry if my logi gets an armour buff and in fact, the hp we have now could do with some addressing. My min logi has more armour than shield base stats.

But it's not much different now with the buff to armor reps. Its either an enhanced repper or an enhanced plate, basically (+5hp/s or +100 hp). I can't quote the fitting costs off the top of my head, but they aren't so different as to be a bigger deal than the speed penalty for equipping a plate. Given the choice, I'd rather have the base HP for that reason if nothing else, tbh.

Why can't Logi's be lower HP self repping suits of efficiency?

To the logis that don't brink tank, could you use www.protofits.com to show how you set up your Logi suits?

Because right now, I'm running a Min, Cal, and Gal logi. All 3 of them are using proto EQ, proto Light Weapon, and the lowest HP is the Caldari because I've got a Complex Recharger and Complex Regulator on it. Min is rocking 900 total HP, the Caldari has 800 total HP, and the Gallente has 1100 total HP

The difference in speed and stamina isn't significant enough for me to really care unless the distance we're trying to travel would be more suited to LAV/DS

If I sacrificed the Regen mods for more HP I could get the caldari up to 900. Give it another 100HP because that's what people want and it ends up with 1000 total HP. While my Caldari Commando, a Heavy Frame, has 1100 Total HP right now using 3x complex shield extenders and a complex reactive plate.

I can max out HP on a Gallente Commando with 1330 total HP. Give that Gallente Logistics another HP and they're only 100HP apart.

How is this not indicative of power creep? Bad enough my Assault Suits have more HP than a Heavy Frame, why should Logistics also be better at this?

This would definitely be a step in the right direction. I'm still pissed the Min Logi lost 30HP when Uprising dropped. Logis should be fantastic at everything except tanking and ganking. Should you be able to get ganked by a Logi if they get the drop on you? Absolutely, but you get the point. Our suits should be able to Logi themselves when we're busy Logi'ing everyone else.

It's the basic stats of the Logi suit that are the issue for me. We barely rep faster than a Commando, and are barely FASTER than a Commando. The poster above talking about their brick tanked and now obsolete slayer logi fits is a prime example of the direction we do NOT need to head back down. eHP should not be the answer just because every other suit in the game has been buffed over the past year.

On a side note, bummed you didn't get elected. I voted for ya, fwiw.

Nice deflection.

Why not try actually showing what you run.
.

Who can tell me the specifics of how protofits calculates eHP? I see that term miss-defined or loosely defined quite a lot and it can be accurately used to mean/contain many things, what is the site using in this case?

Straight up 15% damage resistance for logistics using a rep tool,i like it!

Stats can be changed via hotfix,so can bonuses.

Remember charlie?
Assaults got eHP,slots,and a new bonus to grenade fitting.

"Necessity" when it's used as he has in that sentence means "we know the problems we just don't care,we like assaults more".

So yes,in a single hotfix, CCP can easily buff logistics.
At this point they are simply refusing to.

Lol 'first in line'.

Logistics was straight up ignored or even nerfed the last few "updates".

EVERY suit BUT logistics has gotten buffed.

It IS logistics turn.

Stop trying to act mature and actually be mature for a change.

EVERY suit BUT logistics has gotten buffed.

And as for lolmandos...they aren't even to be slated in Dust on PC.
But on PS3 Dust they do need a buff.

But heres the funny thing...i don't use lolmandos so i would have no right suggesting for them.
I use logistics, which is why i know what's needed for logistics.

Only an idiot would suggest changes to a suit they don't use.

Incremental changes are a game wide assessment, not a per frame assessment, the CPM is very aware of the need to give support play some attention and has been vocal on the subject. Consider the recent hotfix thread and the narrative regarding injectors, that is only one aspect in the process of course, but proper balance is iterative not sweeping (generally speaking).

So, yes, as it has happened the logi pass, as well as the support pass (which overlaps but isn't entirely identical) are still upcoming rather than already done but that does not indicate a lack of attention and at present I have no reason to believe that such changes would not be forthcoming.

Cheers,
Cross

Wasnt that scaled WP's ?

Boo. Hiss.
*throws popcorn

Question: Could you change the Minmatar suit to a sapper and somehow make Proximity mines explode based on Signature Profile instead of just on vehicles (Giving the Minmatar Logi a bonus to proxy mine triggers and explosion Radius of REs). (For something in the future, not necessarily a hotfix)

Yes, you are correct, in the contest between stealth and scans at their highest level stealth wins.

I floated an idea past a CPM candidate at one point about vehicle scanners being tweaked so that they, at least, could detect those super low profile scouts but she was very very adamant about ANY scanning of scouts making them "useless" (wtf?!??!) and from the context of the convo I got the distinct impression that sentiment was largely that of the current scouting community and previous CPM. She was even worse about the topic of scouts losing that 2nd equipment slot.

@ Cross / Pokey

I'm willing to bet that if you check the numbers, you'll find that proto Scouts aren't typically running proto equipment. In the cases where they are, they are likely running a single-purpose fit and making big sacrifices elsewhere to do so (e.g. my Uplink runner has no primary weapon and no grenade).

I'm level 5 in Hives, Uplinks, Remotes, Active Scanners. I can count on two hands the number of times I've used proto hives or remotes. And I don't plan to. They're too expensive and too tough to fit.

For the vast majority of Scoutly fits and functions, it seems more likely to me we're talking about a downgrade from ADV EQ to STD and in the case of low-level Scouts, STD EQ to an empty slot.

Edit: As far as Active Scanners go, PRO are the only ones worth using when running forward recon; if I couldn't fit a prototype scanner, I very likely wouldn't run my forward recon fit.

I have two Uplink fits.

The first is used start-of-match; I rush in, toss an uplink or two along the way, hack a point, toss another uplink or two then suicide. It has 2 pro uplinks, 3 kincats, 1 card reg, 1 shield, 1 empty high, pro knives, no primary and no grenade and exactly 1 PG to spare.

The second is used for infiltration (get uplink behind enemy lines) and exfiltration (get bluedots out of spawn trap). It has two damps, two kincats, 2 shields, pro uplink, adv cloak, adv combat rifle, pro knives, no grenade and exactly 1 CPU to spare.

In my opinion, a better question is ...
If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults?

PS: I like your corp name, by the way. A great book :-)

I think the concern here is if Logis get a boost to eHP, as well as a better fitting bonus, that leaves more room for tank and gank modules, as well as having the best equipment. This was the initial reason Logis were the go to suit for a bit.

I see this proposal as having three parts:

Part A involves direct buffs to Logi base statistics.
Part B involves improvements to Logi gear-based bonuses.
Part C involves changes to EQ which will impact all classes.

I suspect that ...

... passing A or B would likely be fine; some risk of undercorrection.
... passing A and B would likely be fine; some risk of overcorrection.
... passing C would set into motion unknowns; risk of introducing new imbalance.
... passing A,B,C would likely be too much; high risk of Logi out-assaulting Assault.

Thank you again Cross, Pokey, Tuesday, others for permitting my participation. o7

Just like Pokey, I like my proposed change to the EQ bonuses best, the global one. But, I think 50% is actually too high, the original proposal was for roughly 30%, to avoid over-homogenizing the suits, which is the most valid criticism of the idea.

I may be in the minority here, but I have no desire to have a bonus to RE's, and am still confused why they are considered equipment when you unlock them with grenades...

Cross,
I can get behind method 4, It looks solid and also makes all logi's viable in PC for their reps. I still don't think that RE's are equipment, but Pokey has made some good points about their use. Also leveling out the PG and CPU of each suit is a good idea if they normalize the slot layouts.

(honestly I still have a taste for the grown up version of reps seen by our sky clad counterparts in EVE, but that idea may be seen as too radical ).

The trick here, that cross is slipping around, is it's hard to balance a logi for meaningful support play without causing DUST to devolve into blob or Zerg warfare whwre everyone must focus fire (primary) on the guy the logi is repping or be annihilated by the numbers.

In EVE you need to be able to rep tank because there are only so many ways you can get instablapped. (Being the tackle frigate diving on a double-webbed vindicator would be a good example of instant death)

In DUST Since human reaction and aim is the deciding factor if we made reps comparable to EVE you're gonna pass out from boredom before you crack the sentinel's tank.

(Pro tip: Sentinels have shields. You (basically) always have time to pull out your rep tool, but not to switch to a weapon.)

Depending on the situation, having the rep per on the heavy is indeed beneficial, such as when pushing the point in domination and you expect a sudden attack at any moment. Although it is true you don't need him leashed at all times.

Upon reflection, it i think my growing concern is that there are truly a relative few professional logi players left. I've noticed quite a few people pitching ideas like rep tool nerfs or saying "the logi's are fine where they are now". Way more of those voices and most don't actually undertand the impact of what they are pitching.

We need some help. Would be nice if CCP Rattati would commit to working somehting out for us in the next HF.

No problem, SMB.

Shoot me a note on Skype or in-game with your prime times and we'll hook up. I'm Best Coast and Pokey is Mountain TZ but i'm sure we can link up.

I do appreciate the work you are bringing to the table for the logi crew.

But seriously.

I hope CCP ignores all this 'nerf rep tool' spam.

1st it was "logis aren't repping enough,they're shooting too much,nerf them!"

2nd (now) it's "logis are repping too much,they're not shooting enough,nerf them!"

That isn't my chart.

Dust.thang.dk is a 3rd party, SDE-driven website kinda like protofits. I believe it has been unmanned (i.e. on autopilot) since FF2014. The historical data you see there is as legit as it gets. Here's their Community Spotlight: http://dust514.com/news/blog/2014/01/community-spotlight/

This historical data section (above) updates every few days; I believe this section polls data daily:
http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php

Yes, all we can see here are unit sales and how they've changed over time.

You can almost date Uprising 1.10 looking only at the timeline alone. We can see how Logi usage rates improved slightly (presumably due to Bandwidth) and how Scout usage tanked as Falloff proved sufficiently potent to convince the slayers to drop the Scout suit in favor of Assault. Farewell and good riddance, Assault Lite. o/

Usage rates don't show us everything or prove anything, but they do tell us a part of the story.

This is true. I neglected to mention suit stats themselves because I don't think I'm qualified to comment on them. Logis in my experience have been squishy, but I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. Their low eHP needs to be a balance factor when you're talking about the logi-heavy combo, but I don't think it needs to be as low as it is currently. They could probably use an increase to base eHP.

What do you think about the suggestion that logis get increased stamina and speed in place of HP? Or maybe alongside a minor HP buff.