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lee corwood
Knights Of Ender
RISE of LEGION
1042
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Posted - 2014.09.04 21:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Late to the party, didn't read all the juicy goodness before so bear with me. This is just my opinion to the original OP over the time I've played.
Started in beta as heavy, went into logi and feel in love since. Proto Min/Amarr Logi, ADV Cal Logi/Min Assault/Sentinel/Commando/Scout
I'm squishy and that never bothered me much. I learned that with the right team that takes care of you (and you them), that hardly ever seems to matter. However, without a squad, the logi role almost seems completely invalidated (or even with a disorganized squad) Which I feel adds good chemistry to teamwork. I used to stack nothing buy plates on my suit. That mostly was a combination of:
- I'm a bad shot (you have no idea how bad...)
- I needed the buffer due to the extremely low ttk back then (after the extremely long ttk phase)
- what else was I supposed to fit in those slots when it was one of the most important core skills to get up first
- I've gotten better at the first, though not by much (still REALLY bad....)
- My situational awareness has gotten extremely better now that scannerinas are out (myself included) and profile is in (plus looking around like a paranoid schizophrenic).
- I still feel this is a bit true still. With profile becoming such a huge component, I have been utilizing those modules more so at least some of my high slots are finally having something else to fill.
As far as what we can and cannot fit, I'm completely ok with Logi's getting away with fitting a cloak. Even commandos. Part of the reason I loved this game in the beginning was the ability to fit anything you wanted to conform to your play style. I appreciate the extreme fitting requirement as I feel that helps deter people from excelling in a role that suit wasn't intended to fill but still provides LOLs. It gives suits purpose and incentive to want them.
The bonuses to each individual suit I find are only worth while in highly competitive environments, IE: PC. I have 4 PC Logi fittings. They are all worth more than 225,000 ISK a piece. They do their job well and sure, I could use a lower tier standard logi and still reap the benefits of my proto skill.
However, in a regular pub match, that almost never seems like a concern for me. Even links. Were I even tempted to bring out an Amarr logi right now, even standard, you probably wouldn't be able to even SEE my 3 second uplink in the sea of uplinks available unless I'm the ONLY one putting them down.
As far as how I feel the logi class stands today: I use my scout to do more logi-ing today than I do my Logi suits.
My scout can tank armor and shields if I wanted it to as much as my logi can.
My scout can get uplinks where I need them faster and more 'quietly' scan wise than my logi can.
My scout can hold 2 of the important 4 EQ that my logi can. I have 2 fits for each situation.
My scout by default can scan my surroundings better than my logi ever will as was its intended purpose.
Therefore, in a world where I can lose a 60k-70k logi suit vs lose a 12k-30k scout suit in 1-2 shotgun shots and accomplish the same thing, I'm more likely to choose the latter.
Now, that doesn't mean I've completely abandoned my logi suit. I still use it, even in pubs, but there comes a threshold of environment + number of enemy scouts + team competence that necessitates that the logi would almost never be worth what the scout can accomplish. That's not necessarily 'wrong' just smart adapting but still feels as if the scout might have a little too much benefit from logi style that it shouldn't.
What I do feel is incorrect about the logis is the comparison it has to its other suit counterparts. They are completely unequal. I see a far benefit of the Min/Amarr logis over the bonuses of the Gal/Cal logi bonuses. What needs to happen, I'm not quite sure, but I personally stopped skilling into all of the Logi suits simply because I saw no benefit for my team.
Cal gets bonus to nanohive:
I put them down, someone eats a little and then we leave and/or they die.
I put them down, they get destroyed by flux
I put them down and maybe I get 50 points IF 5 ppl need my hive and/or ~3 enter AND return after a set amount of time for more.
In most cases, my assaults/scouts/commando is already carrying a nanohive leaving me to just deal with rep and needle
Gal gets bonus to scans:
I can't even tell you how worthless this seems right now in the world of profiling. Get a proto suit THEN a proto EQ or just go get a proto scout suit and reap benefits. If I'm going to spend 2 millions points for a proto suit, I don't see how Gal Logi is the winner over Gal Scout and definitely don't see the benefit over any other EQ item that has much more direct and immediate impact for the team, especially if the team already has a scout.
TLDR, I don't think slots and sidearms and eHP is the thing we're needing to consider right now. I don't even think they need comparing to assaults or scouts right now either. I think adjusting the bonuses is what's important first and foremost. Until the bonuses make each racial shine in its own right, we can start to see better numbers/data that shape future decisions that affect the role as a whole.
As far as scouts go, I'm fine with them running our EQ, but feel they need a slight bit of fitting penalty to using EQ. Same for most all suits really. It needs to be enough to offset 'do i want to tank, do I want to support or do I want to be sneaky). I don't think all 3 of those should be possible in one package. I think they need a revisit on their penalty to profile for plates but that's a different discussion than what this thread is supposed to cover.
Knights of Ender Director
Logi 4 Life | Youtube Vids
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lee corwood
Knights Of Ender
RISE of LEGION
1119
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Posted - 2015.01.12 17:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Hawkings Greenback wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:[quote=Hawkings Greenback][quote=Pokey Dravon]
I'm still seeing the tourists abound, especially in ambush. BushLogis, it seems to me, are doing the most to reinforce the "Logis are WP whores" notion since they primarily ONLY rep or pitch links. As the matches are short and focused on killing those end of match leaderboards that list Logis in the top spots with or over good slayers create the easily distorted perception Logistics is ezmode. I've quietly sighed to myself many times while squadded with some random who decides to randomly run a beam then spend the next 7 minutes crowing about their WP take as they do NOTHING besides heavyblob. I've got to be honest here, I have been known to go solo and logi in ambush but quite I often I will solo in all game modes just to see if I can stay alive and still support. I feel dirty now  but in my defence it is with support in mind and not to brag about WP whoring. I must be a little mad as I often prefer to go solo, if I can get in a squad that's easy going then it's cool. Nothing to feel dirty about, brah. Running solo (RandomBlueBerryTheory, I call it) as a Logi can teach you a lot about what goes on that you wouldn't ever be exposed to were you anchored to a fatty. Things like Team Support vs Squad Support, for starters. Its not always a bad thing, running solo.
If I end up at the top of the list, usually the only people who hate on me are my own team members, calling me a WP *****. Never mind that yes I killed less, but I deprived them of X clones/kills by doing my job correctly. Yes, I put uplinks in areas that you could spawn in safely and flood the objective instead of running solo across open ground. Yes, I went 0/3 and you went 23/1 and I'm above you on that list, but you didn't do that alone.
No one is the solo master here. I'm only good at my job when I have great soldiers at my back. When all of us don't come together, I end up at 0/7 and you end up at 16/11. It's a relationship, not an 'out do you'.
But when I'm singled out, by myself, and some thirsty redberry thinks I'm easy pickings, it shouldn't be on me that you didn't bother to strafe, bother with cover, or consider that I too spent skills in weapon proficiency. It shouldn't be gasp/anger worthy that I, a soldier on the field, was able to encounter you with the same tactics despite being a dirty, dirty logi.
Also, it's a big misconception that because you last saw me as a logi that that is all I'm doing on the field. It's like people forget I too have the option to switch suits to better serve me depending on the situation. I'm also proto AV and can really rake in the points taking down vehicles/installations.
Do I like those that use my suit for the slots and stack dmg mods and armor plates? Hate them.
Have a seen that many? Not really. Since the rise of the scouts, I saw more scouts repping than logi's prior to the most recent release. I have seen quite a few logi snipers out there, stacking the plates. I like to tickle them with my knives.
Do I think nerfing the suit will fix it? Nope. You're just going to chase them into the next best thing.
I don't fair well in ambush which is why I force myself to do so once in a while. However, I have stopped bringing uplinks into ambushes. I know a LOT of roles do so, for the massive points, but I have never been in an ambush where my links weren't used against me. My uplink always ends up being camped and I refuse to let my BBs be cannon fodder to pad my WP. Even if I carried the same uplink to 'move' the one deployed, I am too busy worrying about my survival to remember to move it in time or at all. Being in ambush and running in only starter fits has really upped my gun game tho :) Well...when I'm not being absolutely murderstomped and camped on someone else's uplink.
Knights of Ender Director
Logi 4 Life | Youtube Vids
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lee corwood
Knights Of Ender
RISE of LEGION
1122
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Posted - 2015.01.12 22:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:IDK, I do ambush a fair amount so I can play with laz0rs and I find that if you play your cards right, uplinks can be super effective and very profitable. The latter part I suspect is probably due to the belief that uplinks are not that helpful so few actual logi's do it (and that we tend to hate ambush in general, it seems)
All the blueberries drop uplinks at the initial spawn point like idiots, or at best somewhere at the periphery of the blob, so what I do is take a nice fast/sneaky Dragonfly scout well off to the side and put them somewhere that can't be camped really easily.... ladder-accesible rooftops are are favorite, because I still have PTSD from the old tankbush days. Can't get an HAV up there!
At worst it never gets used if my side is winning easily. At best it gives the team (and me) a nice safe spot to spawn after the initial wave wipes a lot of us out and a new front needs to be formed.
I've tried this and it always back fired on me. I notice a lot of people who spawn on the default spawn and immediately lay one down to try and catch all the ones coming immediately after them. I used to use my dragonfly (which sadly can only lay down one hive now...) on the far corner. But I guess I've been the victim of too many bad matches. In those, I ended up being the only uplink left after we were bulldozed and inevitably camped.
That being said, I haven't dropped an uplink in ambush for almost 8 months now...
Knights of Ender Director
Logi 4 Life | Youtube Vids
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lee corwood
Knights Of Ender
RISE of LEGION
1144
|
Posted - 2015.01.22 22:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
I've virtually quit using anything but my BPO or STD suits. It's just not worth bringing my a 223k proto suit or even my 83k advanced suit when I'm two shotted by a militia bolt pistol. And it's not even the weakness or the money that bothers me. It's the weakness + the money + the utter lack of value it gives me. I find that I perform pretty much the same with lower tier items with a better payout than I do with my more expensive suits.
I'm not poor and I'm not rich. When I get a great squad who takes care of me, I'll throw that money down like nobody's business. Those guys took care of me, so hell yeah I'm going to bring out the Wyrikomi needles and Six Kin Rep tools and go negative this match.
But I think I'm not an exception. I think most all skilled out logis out there have this same experience where it's just not worthwhile to pull out, period. I get flak all the time for not bringing out my best hives, my best rep tool and my best needle to every game.
But all that PRO EQ 57,015 ISK (Not to mention the +57,690 ISK just for a suit that can fit the requirements)...
114,705 ISK (without any other mods) =/= automatically better performance for myself OR the team.
There is no real incentive for me to want to use that more expensive gear when I have consistent proof that it doesn't actually DO better. And with BW even the number laid is not an advantage but a worrisome detriment without a BW meter.
- "Better rep tools mean you turn a BB OP against incoming fire" - you've clearly never used a repair tool before
- "Better injectors mean I can pick someone up to get immediately back in the fight" - so does my dirty bpo needle, because I don't pick someone up when a threat still exists.
- "Better nanohives mean we don't have to depend on a supply depot" - actually it just means we both have to depend on a supply depot. My hives don't give you enough ammo to survive another war. It's enough to give you just a few clips (maybe one depending on how many of you there are) to survive to get to a depot. And when I'm out of hives we ALL get to travel to the supply depot so you can get more ammo and I can get more 'oh **** we're all out of ammo' ammo.
-"Better uplinks mean" - nothing. Literally nothing. I've yet to see where 2-3 seconds meant the turn of a battle in anything except PC. The reality is, seconds mean nothing. Placement means something. Coordination means something. 5-8 people all spawning on one uplink and taking a point by storm in mass is what makes uplinks valuable. Hell if anything, I've had my 7 second uplinks still last 15 due to all the server issues we're having.
Until my EQ is made at all valuable, I fail to see what use it lends for me to bring it into the game.
Knights of Ender Director
Logi 4 Life | Youtube Vids
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lee corwood
Knights Of Ender
RISE of LEGION
1149
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 12:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:As a quick update, last word I have is that there will be some Logi love coming in the next hotfix which should be deployed (as I understand it) post patch. All things have been somewhat delayed due to the nature of multi-national holidays combined with coordinating two games on the same server + working with Sony QA (which streamlined or not still takes time). Now, having said that I am confident that after all the various changes to the game there will likely be room for further polish on Logis and equipment even after the changes. Room to really make them shine. But I am a firm believer in the iterative process and working with the community here so that is IMO all to the good. When the changes come please play test them and post your feedback (tagged with build etc) in this thread so we can craft the next step together  Cheers, Cross
blows dust off elgato
Knights of Ender Director
Logi 4 Life | Youtube Vids
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lee corwood
Knights Of Ender
RISE of LEGION
1150
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 19:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:DJINN Jecture wrote:From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though.
Now I have to try this. I've proto'd both suits but never tried to just fill my logi slots with hack mods. Be a cool video to show a video compare.
- normal suit like a min assault
- a std logi (sadly can't test this one now that I have a proto min logi)
- a logi (with proto skills)
- a logi (with proto skills) + 4 complex mods
- a min scout (with proto skills)
- a min scout (with proto skills) + 3 complex mods
now I have a video project for tonight
Knights of Ender Director
Logi 4 Life | Youtube Vids
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lee corwood
Knights Of Ender
RISE of LEGION
1151
|
Posted - 2015.01.29 01:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
lee corwood wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:DJINN Jecture wrote:From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do. I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus. Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though. Now I have to try this. I've proto'd both suits but never tried to just fill my logi slots with hack mods. Be a cool video to show a video compare. - normal suit like a min assault - a std logi (sadly can't test this one now that I have a proto min logi) - a logi (with proto skills) - a logi (with proto skills) + 4 complex mods - a min scout (with proto skills) - a min scout (with proto skills) + 3 complex mods now I have a video project for tonight
Well that was fun but also labor intensive.
Knights of Ender Director
Logi 4 Life | Youtube Vids
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lee corwood
Knights Of Ender
RISE of LEGION
1161
|
Posted - 2015.01.29 23:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:I'm sending you 5 million ISK when I get home tonight. That was awesome. Small tweak though. The Min Scout gets a native 10% bonus before the extra 25% from racial bonus, and 25% from hacking skill. So, it starts off with 35% instead of 25% as you have listed. Again, badass video!
Will have to edit!
Knights of Ender Director
Logi 4 Life | Youtube Vids
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