DUST Search - CPM input request: Logistics & Support.

Meee One wrote:

TechMechMeds wrote:

SponkSponkSponk wrote:

I hadn't realised that, but I agree. Combat fits only have to care about proto weapons hitting their wallet, of which generally only one costs a lot.

logistics suits have the same problem, magnified three- or four-fold.

Just 4 restocks on my proto hives is about 117k isk.

24k for a proto rep tool I believe.

7k for an injector which is ok I believe, saves as many lives as I want which is what its all about for me, when I logi.

Going off it these days, I find myself only doing it when I have to baby sit nubs or want to spectate (rep slave).

Core focused is 35k.
Any Pro hives 22k and up.
Any Pro uplinks 22k and up.
Any Pro scanners 22k and up.

So the avg Pro logi carries 4 equipment.

Any combination of the 4 equipment is freaking expensive.
And those aren't the special versions like the triage hives,i think those are nearly 30k for 3 of them, that's 10k per hive (which CCP made easier to be destroyed btw). 1-1.5k grenade = loss of a 10k investment.

I could understand the costs if they increased your safety,but any logi besides Min has to stay at 7.5m (11m for Min) to use the most expensive repair tool the core focused,and yet the blasted thing can't even out repair a MLT RR.

Running ADV is costly too as any support logi tries to maximise their equipment without gimping themselves to badly.

Put that all together with the low base stats that specialise in neither eHP (like a heavy),or speed/health regen and evasion (like a scout).
You have a roll of very expensive tissue paper carrying other rolls of very expensive tissue paper.

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Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2744	Posted - 2014.08.13 16:08:00 - [121] - Quote Also, with the latest hotfix if anything has changed your feedback due to the altered context please note that when posting so that we can properly track the effects of the hotfix process regarding this topic. Thanks Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2000	Posted - 2014.08.13 16:12:00 - [122] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Also, with the latest hotfix if anything has changed your feedback due to the altered context please note that when posting so that we can properly track the effects of the hotfix process regarding this topic. Thanks Cross My statements should be unaffected by hotfix charlie given the patch notes I read.
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5070	Posted - 2014.08.13 16:23:00 - [123] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Also, with the latest hotfix if anything has changed your feedback due to the altered context please note that when posting so that we can properly track the effects of the hotfix process regarding this topic. Thanks Cross Its fine, the new HP values mean that I really do have to concentrate on support now. Shock horror!. PS. Tiered number of targets for rep tool at ADV, std and proto please. 1/2/3. A rolling nade is worth two in ambush.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2787	Posted - 2014.08.13 16:43:00 - [124] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Also, with the latest hotfix if anything has changed your feedback due to the altered context please note that when posting so that we can properly track the effects of the hotfix process regarding this topic. Thanks Cross I need to really dig into the numbers to confirm, but basically what I'm seeing in a very preliminary analysis.. ~Assaults and Logistics have similar slot layouts ~Assaults and Logistics have similar resources ~Assaults get a 'cheaper' Light Weapon and Grenade ~Logistics gets a 'free' equipment from 25% reduction of 4 equipment ~Assaults get a sidearm, Logistics do not. ~Logistics has lower base HP than Assaults So Logistics with the current bonus need to fit 2 additional equipment over the Assault (Assuming their's 4 equipment is free with current bonus). Assaults need to fit a sidearm, but cost reduction of Light Weapon and Grenade help compensate for this additional cost. So essentially Logistics need to fit 2 addition equipment over the assault, with the same resources and a lower base HP. Assuming the Logi fits full proto equipment, this means that it will be unable to fit the same level of defenses as an Assault. While the Logi SHOULD have weaker defenses to an extent than the Assault, I worry that this difference paired with the lower base HP and regenerative abilities, will make the Logistics excessivly weak compared to the Assault.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 271	Posted - 2014.08.13 19:49:00 - [125] - Quote Been watching this thread, haven't been able to post. Kinda glad too since now that Charlie has deployed I can "run through the numbers" and see where specifically I think we could use tweaks. That being said, I do have a couple of things which are Charlie notwithstanding: oh, first, MinLogi since open beta, primarily PC last couple months tho the last couple weeks have been quiet-ish. Okay, a couple things too help the logistics class as a whole- 1. The infamous Sprint Glitch has to get fixed. Now that Shayz has posted his vid this'll happen hopefully, it can not be understated the impact this glitch has on our class since constant movement is a fundamental for us and if any class is cycling equipment its the logi. 2. Scouts need to lose that second equipment slot. I know, you all hate me now. I'm sorry. I hate myself for being the one to say it. But has to be said. Light frames moving ultra fast, tanking HP and by profile being undetectable outside of their class unless major accommodations are made should NOT be additionally empowered to cloak AND uplinkspam/rep/revive/re. To do the sort of forward position recon/inside insertion establishment (SCOUTING) they are for their base stats with pg/cpu accomodation for ONE equipment is enough. You are plenty stealthy, and extremely lethal. The second slot just feeds the abuses others document in previous comments/other threads. I <3 you, actual scouts. 3. (riot time) Logistics class should be a level 5 Dropsuit Command unlock. That's right. Drop suit Command to level 5 before accessing Logi frames. For a long time now the logistics class has been inundated by tourists. Individuals who maybe started a character, learned enough to recognize the WP/SP relationship to progression who then undertake the role SOLELY in a point farming capacity to speed their own progression into w/e FOTM they actually want. THESE are the mil needle/rep farmers. These are the HIV next to the supply depot farmers. These are the largely ignorant/disinterested "logis" running around bricktanked spamming what little equipment they can carry after their 0 coreskill investment HP load allows, slaying. Make the role and the class of LOGISTICS a dedicated decision whose impact on the field is reflective of its users' having entered intentionally, not as a peripheral, not as a WP farm stepstone. This will also help w/ players without some of the fundamental gameplay knowledge or experience entering the class, being silly on the field and then ridiculous on the forums. 4-? We need movement buffs, walking and rotation speed. Something HP/regen side, personally I'm more a fan of less HP boost, more regen but that's me and my style. I don't think bonuses need a huge amount of revamping, I like Appia's expansion on the bonusing tho. It keeps the existing bonuses and structure we have while expanding the individual equipment bonuses across the class. and I would frikin' love to have a light weapon AND a sidearm. But, I want to actually play in Charlie before requesting too much after 1-3. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 272	Posted - 2014.08.13 20:11:00 - [126] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: However at the moment the difference between a rep logi and a great rep logi is being in squad and saying "By the Power of GraySkull! [insert name] has the POWER!!!". FTFY Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Roger Cordill The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 415	Posted - 2014.08.13 20:14:00 - [127] - Quote So, the title asks for logi and support feedback, yet all people talks about is logistic dropsuits and Scout suits. Bummer, as vehicles do exist,and in some form or another they are support tools, really mainly support tools. Yet they've been turned into a bloody ******* mess.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 272	Posted - 2014.08.13 20:35:00 - [128] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: So, the title asks for logi and support feedback, yet all people talks about is logistic dropsuits and Scout suits. Bummer, as vehicles do exist,and in some form or another they are support tools, really mainly support tools. Yet they've been turned into a bloody ******* mess. Yes, this is primarily discussing Logi suits and Charlie. If you have vehicle perspectived input within a support context (maybe you like the idea of reppers doing higher repair values on your hull) bring it on in. If your contribution is outside the discussion context, we'll let you know. Civilly. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2009	Posted - 2014.08.13 21:46:00 - [129] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: So, the title asks for logi and support feedback, yet all people talks about is logistic dropsuits and Scout suits. Bummer, as vehicles do exist,and in some form or another they are support tools, really mainly support tools. Yet they've been turned into a bloody ******* mess. vehicles are there to support infantry pushes so vehicular roles in support (of particular note is the mobile CRU) then its a valid thing. its not a discussion of AV and interactions with killing/being killed.
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 154	Posted - 2014.08.13 23:23:00 - [130] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: However at the moment the difference between a rep logi and a great rep logi is being in squad and saying "By the Power of GraySkull! [insert name] has the POWER!!!". FTFY Legit lol, and you better believe I'll be ******* using that. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 273	Posted - 2014.08.13 23:34:00 - [131] - Quote wtf is this **** I'm reading about the Charlie update that the Amarr Logi lost its sidearm? I thought the patch notes had that being left for Delta? Is Wayne Brady gonna have to punch a support ticket?? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2745	Posted - 2014.08.13 23:58:00 - [132] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: So, the title asks for logi and support feedback, yet all people talks about is logistic dropsuits and Scout suits. Bummer, as vehicles do exist,and in some form or another they are support tools, really mainly support tools. Yet they've been turned into a bloody ******* mess. We've had a bit of dropship feedback in here, but you are correct mostly there hasn't been support vehicle talk so far, but by all means anyone who plays support on board a HAV/LAV/DS feel free to speak up. While there certainly is a bit of an infantry focus going on here that should not in any way discourage posting from a vehicle support perspective. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2745	Posted - 2014.08.14 00:00:00 - [133] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: However at the moment the difference between a rep logi and a great rep logi is being in squad and saying "By the Power of GraySkull! [insert name] has the POWER!!!". FTFY If there were enough room I would totally make this a sig See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 2930	Posted - 2014.08.14 00:06:00 - [134] - Quote Oh hey there. I made this thread some time back on the subject of Logi bonuses. I'm too lazy to retype so I linked it. It sums up my thoughts (they're not very many) For the record, my "support" fits are merely scouts. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 994	Posted - 2014.08.14 00:48:00 - [135] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: We've had a bit of dropship feedback in here, but you are correct mostly there hasn't been support vehicle talk so far, but by all means anyone who plays support on board a HAV/LAV/DS feel free to speak up. While there certainly is a bit of an infantry focus going on here that should not in any way discourage posting from a vehicle support perspective. Some of the problem is that there's a paucity of support options available to vehicle users. If I had the option to drive an ambulance around dispensing healing and ammo like a mardi gras parade, I'd jump at the chance. Dust/Eve transfers
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2746	Posted - 2014.08.14 01:25:00 - [136] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Cross Atu wrote: We've had a bit of dropship feedback in here, but you are correct mostly there hasn't been support vehicle talk so far, but by all means anyone who plays support on board a HAV/LAV/DS feel free to speak up. While there certainly is a bit of an infantry focus going on here that should not in any way discourage posting from a vehicle support perspective. Some of the problem is that there's a paucity of support options available to vehicle users. If I had the option to drive an ambulance around dispensing healing and ammo like a mardi gras parade, I'd jump at the chance. Perhaps if we can get the LLAV back in you'll have that option, or at least more of it See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1182	Posted - 2014.08.14 01:47:00 - [137] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of support play within Dust, and how to improve the experience and effectiveness. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross No changes needed for suits, but all Drop Uplinks should only let you carry 1 per slot, per suit. Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 156	Posted - 2014.08.14 01:55:00 - [138] - Quote Just tossing out there but... On logistics suits equipment regens 1/2 minutes. Nothing I say is meant to offend... unless you're stupid. - Mr. Welch
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 994	Posted - 2014.08.14 01:57:00 - [139] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Perhaps if we can get the LLAV back in you'll have that option, or at least more of it Maybe, but LLAVs can't go back in the way they used to be. IMO serious logi vehicles need to be HAVs (preferably with a non-functional large turret) because you need to stay still to rep people and the exposed passengers in a LAV just isn't going to work with that. Dust/Eve transfers
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 989	Posted - 2014.08.14 06:46:00 - [140] - Quote POST charlie update: Logis are still killed first,even if a rep scout is 2 feet from them,the scout will be ignored and if the logi tries to flee they get hunted mercilessly.(Experienced over 10 times today) Logis are officially the LEAST surviving suits in the game,being unable to hide,regen damage,tank damage,or even run away. Once a logi is seen they're dead,usually by a suit that costs 1/6th of theirs or even free. Logis have officially been teathered to heavies,seeing as assaults are too fast for logis to render active support,scouts don't need support.And logis can usually only match a heavies pace even though they are 30eHP from scouts. Walking while using a rep tool...nuff said. Logis are too easily killed,by identification,general stray shots. Low eHP means harder to hit,but not in logis case. Aiming down sights suit information guarantees logis die first,every time. Equipment costs are too insane to consecutively deploy as a support logi,considering scouts have a better survival rating. To sum up,logis that stay logis during this time of hardship are true logis.(Or have major corp backing) The simplest indirect buff logis could receive would be a reduction to equipment costs (50-75%). The one thing that kills support logis the most isn't shotgun scouts,or even HMG heavies,it's the costs of trying to be a pure support player. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2011	Posted - 2014.08.14 07:48:00 - [141] - Quote Oh the previous poster absolutely brings up s brilliant point. Logis do not have the speed to support a push of assaults. This is a massive problem given their low survivability under fire. A logi caught alone is likely helpless against opportunistic killers. They need to be as fast as a assault team of the same race. I would posit that making a logi 10-15% faster than an assault so they can respond faster to needed support actions and can dive for cover when under direct fire. In my experience in coordinated squad vs coordinated squad, whoever loses the logi first gets shredded.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 203	Posted - 2014.08.14 08:03:00 - [142] - Quote It's a good job that the reduction in logi speed didn't go through in HF Charlie then. I played a few matches last night ( not as a logi ) and didn't see many logi at all. I played 5 matches, all in skirmish so maybe it's not the best place to look. Also wasn't seeing as many heavy frames on the field so that may reduce the number of logi's as well. Not sure whether people are seeing this in all game modes. Best place to look would be ambush or domination. I may log on later and check it out. Seems that most people are trying new shinies atm. Absolutely the equipment costs should come down but that has a positive effect for everyone. A slight increase in base movement speed probably wouldn't go amiss anyway, maybe more so now the battlefield got a little more fluid. To be honest we have got to give HF Charlie time to bed in , as I stated in the original HF C discussion, before we consider any logi changes. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2800	Posted - 2014.08.14 18:33:00 - [143] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Cross Atu wrote: We've had a bit of dropship feedback in here, but you are correct mostly there hasn't been support vehicle talk so far, but by all means anyone who plays support on board a HAV/LAV/DS feel free to speak up. While there certainly is a bit of an infantry focus going on here that should not in any way discourage posting from a vehicle support perspective. Some of the problem is that there's a paucity of support options available to vehicle users. If I had the option to drive an ambulance around dispensing healing and ammo like a mardi gras parade, I'd jump at the chance. Perhaps if we can get the LLAV back in you'll have that option, or at least more of it The only way the LLAV would be useful for anything other than running people over, is if the locking system for reps was altered significantly. The time to aim and lock with the LLAV repair module was so clunky and long that it was better to just hop out and do it manually with the infantry tool. I'm not sure your technical limitations, but I'd like to see something more like an AoE bubble, similar to a repping nanohive, that would rep all infantry in the vicinity. If they can manage that sort of function, I will gladly go back into LLAVs and actually use them as a true support vehicle.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 991	Posted - 2014.08.15 03:46:00 - [144] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: It's a good job that the reduction in logi speed didn't go through in HF Charlie then. I played a few matches last night ( not as a logi ) and didn't see many logi at all. I played 5 matches, all in skirmish so maybe it's not the best place to look. Also wasn't seeing as many heavy frames on the field so that may reduce the number of logi's as well. Not sure whether people are seeing this in all game modes. Best place to look would be ambush or domination. I may log on later and check it out. Seems that most people are trying new shinies atm. Absolutely the equipment costs should come down but that has a positive effect for everyone. A slight increase in base movement speed probably wouldn't go amiss anyway, maybe more so now the battlefield got a little more fluid. To be honest we have got to give HF Charlie time to bed in , as I stated in the original HF C discussion, before we consider any logi changes. Yes equipment costs going down would benefit everyone. But it would MAJORLY benefit logis who run 3 on their suit. Currently logis must choose between survival and support,and most pick survival because it's cheaper. This is the only game i've ever played where support is punished so heavily in EVERYTHING they do. "Wanna run support? It'll cost ya an arm,a leg,oh and you'll be the easiest killed in the game. But hey you can have more equipment,who cares if you can't survive to use it all...everyone loves knowing regardless of which suit they pick they have a guaranteed victim." "So why not support?" Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 994	Posted - 2014.08.15 03:54:00 - [145] - Quote I hadn't realised that, but I agree. Combat fits only have to care about proto weapons hitting their wallet, of which generally only one costs a lot. logistics suits have the same problem, magnified three- or four-fold. Dust/Eve transfers
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5118	Posted - 2014.08.15 03:59:00 - [146] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: I hadn't realised that, but I agree. Combat fits only have to care about proto weapons hitting their wallet, of which generally only one costs a lot. logistics suits have the same problem, magnified three- or four-fold. Just 4 restocks on my proto hives is about 117k isk. 24k for a proto rep tool I believe. 7k for an injector which is ok I believe, saves as many lives as I want which is what its all about for me, when I logi. Going off it these days, I find myself only doing it when I have to baby sit nubs or want to spectate (rep slave). A rolling nade is worth two in ambush.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 992	Posted - 2014.08.15 04:24:00 - [147] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: I hadn't realised that, but I agree. Combat fits only have to care about proto weapons hitting their wallet, of which generally only one costs a lot. logistics suits have the same problem, magnified three- or four-fold. Just 4 restocks on my proto hives is about 117k isk. 24k for a proto rep tool I believe. 7k for an injector which is ok I believe, saves as many lives as I want which is what its all about for me, when I logi. Going off it these days, I find myself only doing it when I have to baby sit nubs or want to spectate (rep slave). Core focused is 35k. Any Pro hives 22k and up. Any Pro uplinks 22k and up. Any Pro scanners 22k and up. So the avg Pro logi carries 4 equipment. Any combination of the 4 equipment is freaking expensive. And those aren't the special versions like the triage hives,i think those are nearly 30k for 3 of them, that's 10k per hive (which CCP made easier to be destroyed btw). 1-1.5k grenade = loss of a 10k investment. I could understand the costs if they increased your safety,but any logi besides Min has to stay at 7.5m (11m for Min) to use the most expensive repair tool the core focused,and yet the blasted thing can't even out repair a MLT RR. Running ADV is costly too as any support logi tries to maximise their equipment without gimping themselves to badly. Put that all together with the low base stats that specialise in neither eHP (like a heavy),or speed/health regen and evasion (like a scout). You have a roll of very expensive tissue paper carrying other rolls of very expensive tissue paper. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5119	Posted - 2014.08.15 04:36:00 - [148] - Quote Meee One wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: I hadn't realised that, but I agree. Combat fits only have to care about proto weapons hitting their wallet, of which generally only one costs a lot. logistics suits have the same problem, magnified three- or four-fold. Just 4 restocks on my proto hives is about 117k isk. 24k for a proto rep tool I believe. 7k for an injector which is ok I believe, saves as many lives as I want which is what its all about for me, when I logi. Going off it these days, I find myself only doing it when I have to baby sit nubs or want to spectate (rep slave). Core focused is 35k. Any Pro hives 22k and up. Any Pro uplinks 22k and up. Any Pro scanners 22k and up. So the avg Pro logi carries 4 equipment. Any combination of the 4 equipment is freaking expensive. And those aren't the special versions like the triage hives,i think those are nearly 30k for 3 of them, that's 10k per hive (which CCP made easier to be destroyed btw). 1-1.5k grenade = loss of a 10k investment. I could understand the costs if they increased your safety,but any logi besides Min has to stay at 7.5m (11m for Min) to use the most expensive repair tool the core focused,and yet the blasted thing can't even out repair a MLT RR. Running ADV is costly too as any support logi tries to maximise their equipment without gimping themselves to badly. Put that all together with the low base stats that specialise in neither eHP (like a heavy),or speed/health regen and evasion (like a scout). You have a roll of very expensive tissue paper carrying other rolls of very expensive tissue paper. Yeah. Am I supposed to have learnt something there?, I am confused. A rolling nade is worth two in ambush.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 995	Posted - 2014.08.15 05:17:00 - [149] - Quote Also, it's noteworthy that the scouts damping bonus was predicated on gal Logi with duvolle focused active scanner. Considering that you need two, or even three of those to not actually find damped scouts, it's a losing proposition, isk wise. Dust/Eve transfers
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 208	Posted - 2014.08.15 05:52:00 - [150] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Yeah. Am I supposed to have learnt something there?, I am confused. Don't role logi unless you are a little weird and don't mind throwing isk away lol Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training



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