The table is improperly labeled (my fault), the +25% change is only applied to links, rep tool, hives, and active scanners.
All other equipment types remain unchanged in their fittings values <-- Bold added to try and clear up the misconception my labeling fail has created within this thread.

With that clarified does your stance on how this effects scouts/other roles alter? Because those four pieces of equipment are (in my view) pretty definitively support items (not more general case items like the RE). Also the step up in costs is a shift which should put proposed ADV at roughly current PRO fittings levels, does that meta step have a large enough impact when applied to those four pieces of support equipment to qualify as kicking other roles in the balls?
(As per usual, these are actual not rhetorical questions, I have this up for feedback so people can present new data to be included o7)

I actually have not done any recent scout fits, I was simply asking the question at hand in clear terms

Now when you say that, are you running a cloak at the same time? Or two equipment? And in that case, what grade of cloak?

Are all your fitting/optimizations maxed?

Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side.

To play devil's advocate, would that be any worse than the current full squads of Assault/Logi Scouts we have today?

Your point brings up the very reason I am tentative at giving Logis much of an eHP buff, and instead would rather them be self repping machines. Point any high alpha weapon at a Logi, +50, but If that Logi makes it to cover, or their teammates jump into the fray, that Logi could be back to form fairly quickly.

Do you feel that would happen because of the improvement of the Logi's bonus? Or because of the increase in resource cost for equipment?

... If there is specific reason why other roles need to have proto equipment at the present costs, and need to have it not come from a logi but from themselves otherwise they lose their specialist role then please elaborate those reasons.

We will have to agree to disagree about the wall hacks. Funkmaster Whale made a nice thread about it a month or two ago. The argument on the current form of passive scans is this:

Scenario 1: You can see the opponent as a dot on your radar when your precision beats theirs = ewar

Scenario 2: You can see:
- the opponent on your radar when your precision beats theirs
- the opponent on your radar when someone else's precision beats theirs, even if yours does not
- the opponent when they are on someone else's radar, even if out of range of your own
- which way they are facing, in real time
- the opponent right in front of your eyes, without having to look at your radar, just right there where you can put a crosshair on them and everything as they turn the corner...

= lolwallhax

I remember the disabling of shared passives last year, but that was for team sharing because the visible chevron element was too much for some people. Without a range indicator, the screen being occupied by 16 floating indicators was considered cluttered.

Uprising 1.4 Patch Notes:
* Shared passive scanner vision for squads disabled (results of active scanners are still shared with squads)

Link: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1210968#post1210968

About scouts,every one has an eWAR bonus but Min.
It has hacking and...NK (the wrong racial weapon).

Before bonuses were swapped logistics had hacking as was intended.
But CCP nerfed equipment as an excuse to steal that bonus and,to be blunt,put it on the wrong suit.

As i see it there are 3 faces to this game.
eHP,evasion,eWAR.

And in every class they are dominant in at least one of these...

eHP -heavies,bad evasion,bad eWAR
All round -assault,good eHP,good evasion,mediocre eWAR

Then there's scouts...
eHP of a logistics.
Better evasion if they decide not to tank.
eWAR for passives and dampening.

And logistics..
Low eHP means high evasion right? Nope
Low eHP and low evasion means high eWAR right? Nope
Then what does logistics get? The ability to carry extra stuff! Woo for being a worthless pack mule!

Logistics should be the best at eWAR if they aren't supposed to be active combat suits.
eWAR = Scanning and precision as well as hacking

Yet they aren't,why?
Because 'lolreasons'.

Still believe the lie that scouts should hack faster?
Let me ask you 1 thing,what color are all the installations?

Look closely,there are patches of yellow!
And what color is logistics? Yellow

But what color are scouts?Blue

So now that you realize this truth,tell me why a logistics suit shouldn't hack a logistics installation (all of them) faster?
Yet a scout should?

It shouldn't.
But logistics can't because 'lolreasons'.
And until logistics is given back what scouts have stolen in eWAR,logistics will always be just a stupid pack mule,with base stats that make 0 sense because it isn't compensated with by that missing eWAR.

But hey what do i know,i only put 2+2 together and got 4.

Then again see mai sig.

---

As to new equipment,i don't think we'll be getting any new models any time soon,which is why i often try to repurpose assets already in-game.

For example a AOE repair tool,using vehicle scan circle,can heal multiple allies at once.
At a decreased rate of course. Something like 50 hp/s at Pro.

Or maybe a flux RE that temporarily disables the enemies tacnet within its radius.

Or an active scrambler which,using the Gal scanner,temporarily makes false enemies appear on the opponents tacnet.

These players often get upset about being scanned while flanking,preventing sneak attacks AKA what scanners were meant to do.

... and you must consider the logistics suit itself. Amarr has the most eHP at 300. Min has the lowest at 240.(the same as an AM scout) Yet all logistics are still slower than their basic frame,and even 160 eHP advantaged assault counterpart.

That aside there's really nothing that can replace precision,exept cooldowns.
So take your pick,super scans every once in a while -or- weak scans all the time.

And I'm kind of amazed you'd entertain the subject at all considering that it stems from the input of a proven purveyor of false or otherwise misleading information. In here.

Dude. They're not broken. Why fix them?

Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey.


TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request.

So your threatening logistics because you don't likt their bonuses?
Nice

Considering the slayer logis, the only real problem with that ever, was the cal logi, which had way to good bonuses.

GalLogi scans aren't OP.
Heavy/Logi blobs aren't either, unless you're not addressing them properly.

In a game well-established on the premises of counters and counter-counters instead of see/point/shoot the fine difference can be easily forgotten.

How does cost factor into that balance issue?

REDACTED. BECAUSE.

... in agreement with your position.

Why should stealth get to be the bargain instead of detection?

Do you disagree that its easier to kill a logi than to kill a scout that isn't being suicidal?

They weren't. Now, post long-overdue tweaking of Scouts' base stats, they're better.

Crazy tidbit, since we're on the subject:

Scans are the counter to stealth.
They operate intermittently, for short periods.
At even their most powerful capability they are still defeated by stealth, since damps win ties and fits are possible which will tie or outright beat the scanner.
Scans, as a counter, are countered by what they are intended to counter. wtf is OP here again?

@Adipem Nothi

From your last few posts and referencing dampening. I do have a question or two for you if you wouldn't mind.

Can all scouts beat the proto Gal proto scanner?
or is it only the racial bonuses that help X races.
That is to say, a proto scout with their slots full of proto dampeners, and a proto cloak. Will each beat the scan... was it an 18 or a 21 (sorry at work and just posting real quick)

Please, tell me what you think.

RedBleach's Logi Proposal

I NEED TO FIND AS SCANNING RESOURCE - I don't want to just dump number hunting onto you, I'd rather have some of my own answers. - I remember looking at one. I'll have to find it.

So I see you have continued to successfully derail our thread, QQing about the imbalance of the scout.

Please for the love of god ignore this poor scout so we can continue on with the logistics and support.

If he wants to discuss this he can START HIS OWN THREAD IN F&B, or better yet go to the barbershop where he belongs.

In your opinion when should active scans or dampeners win?
Step by step, tier by tier, I think that a fully Damped Scout should beat the equal level of Scanner so a full dam[ proto scout beats proto scanner. But the counter is the Gal Logi that can scan everything. Meaning that the specialty of the Gal Logi scanning all is the draw of the suit, nothing escapes its eyes. So that a proto cloak is required to beat the Gal logi.


I am biased because of my logi core, but I see the counter.

Its nice to see that you're in a thread about buffing the weakest class in the game, arguing for buffing scouts that aren't under-powered

Hilarious.
I like how your chart somehow shows that commandos are the weakest class in the game, but magically avoids showing that scouts are still OP, or at the very least still much stronger than logis. But yeah, keep arguing for nerfing scans so assaults can avoid being scanned too. As your chart shows, assaults and scouts need all thelp they can get. /Sarcasm.

Again, arguments that poor are an insult to your audience's intelligence. You're bringing me around though: I'm starting to think that nerfing scouts again might be more important than buffing logis. Look at how high they are on your chart! Lol.

To be fair, those charts simply show units sold right? Amount sold does not necessarily mean that the suit itself is good or bad, its a measure of popularity ...

... I just really hope the Logis get some serious love really soon. They keep getting passed over in favor of Roll Rifle Rebalance, again, and other things of the sort. They keep getting passed over in favor of Rifle Rebalance, again, and other things of the sort.

>The barber shop.

Hypocrite.

Scanning precision up (down):
Able to detect the micro deformities in the ships they work on = High F-ing Precision.

Scan Radius
Increased to Allow the Logi to be the master of Ewar Scanning.

I like the changes, but just curious about the ewar change why better than the scout? Their role is supposed to be recon, even though they play fast assault more. I don't mind being able to see more and further just kind of stomping on some toes, I think.

You are quite right, scouts decided that they needed to be fast assaults and have become more aggressive and In your face. According to you this was decided and vetted in the Barber Shop.

1. Maybe we should put the scout discussion somewhere else, but I think right now, the scouts are not recon, but infiltration units.

2. For that I've proposed a special EQ for them: Stealth Uplinks, they'd have 5 spawns and would be undetectable by any scanner, and they'd have super fast spawn times. These would allow a full squad spawn in, that would obviously consist of one or two logis plus several slayers to take an objective.

3. Good E-war on logis makes sense because they are so squishy. They should be able to see the scout flanking in their back first, to give them any chance to evade or react.

4. For scout recon, I'd like to see SR visual scans (line of sight) being shared with squad or team... this would give snipers a role apart from being an annoying bunch of campers, maybe just a skill for scout suits...

Integer tweaks alone aren't going to fix the Role Bleed in the Recon Department. But I see your point; too many moving parts. Will try again ...

Idea: EWAR Untangled, V2.0 (now with Integer Tweaks!)

* Reduce cloak-blind from 85% to 45%
* CA Scout - Change bonus to Scan Precision + Range
* AM Scout - Change bonus to Biotics Efficacy
* GA Logi - Change bonus to Scan Duration + Cooldown
* 20 dB Active Scanners - Change to 18 dB
* 28 dB Active Scanners - Change to 25 dB
* 36 dB Active Scanners - Change to 33 dB
* 46 dB Active Scanners - Change to 40 dB

EWAR Untangled, V2.1 (to follow)
If GalLogi remains only competitive recon unit, reduce cloak-blind from 45% to 0%
If CalScout becomes the only competitive recon unit, increase cloak-blind from 45% to 65%
If GalLogi and CalScout appear to be "sharing" the role of recon, then make no change

See you in another couple months I guess...

Well, be sure to let me know when that happens.

A big part of the why logis NEED a buff of some kind is because I almost never have a match that doesn't suffer from either poor match making or outrageous expense. The precise matches where it matter most to run good gear, shouldn't be a nearly guaranteed large isk loss. To a lesser extent, everybody suffers from the same problem. Its particularly nasty for vehicle pilots and logis.

That sort of incline would be ascribed as "counter-interplay" and actually be exactly what should happen. Sub21db scanning (which is what we're actually talking about here) becomes "lifted" it doesn't actually do anything for the Assaults. It helps scouts.

If people running assault suits start shifting to scout suits to avoid scans, that does not suggest that scans are too strong against assaults. It suggests that scans are too weak against scouts.

How unsurprising that you would get that backwards. Even if not explicitly advocating to nerf logi scans, you have a knack for framing an issue as though they're OP, even in circumstances that suggest that scans are really under-powered.

Which is why where we are currently and what we have makes for tentative balance. Scans can scan, and fully invested stealth can stealth.

lolpubstar protostomp

But if you have your way scouts will be undetectable,ever.

Because if assaults can beat scans scouts could much more easily.

You keep dropping buzzwords like "permascanned" but theres nothing "perma" about scans

not sure what OSG is, in this context.

. Scouts dampened currently beat the strongest scanner used by the strongest suit. You get that? THEY. BEAT. IT.

CreoFlux doesn't scan at 21, even w/GalLogi bonus.

My bad, full proto GalLogi hits 21ish

Dude, if you pubstomped some of my guys I thank you for it. They need that **** sometimes. Though, if you didn't Win the actual match you didn't stomp a damn thing w/e the final leaderboard said.

lolpubstar protostomp

4. Only 3 times? Come at me, bro.

there is interplay of ewar between medium frames which is the road to complete balance. [/i]

My "contentiousness" stems from my experience in you running in here making claims ...

Scouts have hives and links for days.

This tells me scouts need more bandwidth.

This is the wrong place to complain about your invented "problem."

Again with the distractions... The simple truth is that there is nothing OP about the most precise scans having a small chance of picking up the stealthiest scouts. For you to suggest that scans are OP in the current system, where the most precise scans have ZERO chance of picking up the stealthiest scouts, simply is not reasonable.

Check your numbers dude, you're quoting at least one error and have repeatedly. Doesn't exactly help your cause when anyone who actually uses or does what you are describing can look at your numbers, and see the error(s).

Oh but you have invented a fake problem, the "permascan." I'm not implying that you're inventing problems. I'm being explicit.

That sentence, in a nutshell, is why you read like a troll. You're being absurd. You have an option to fit for completely avoiding 21dB scans 100% of the time. Where's my option for a CHANCE to scan the stealthiest scouts before they one-shot-kill me?

That you would complain about assault suits failing to avoid scans shows that good game balance isn't your concern; buffing stealthy play styles is.

You're nuts. In your head, you can't separate knowing where the enemy is and obliterating them. Guess what. The guys getting stomped by Nyain San, can and sometimes do scan Nyain San just as much, which is why your pointing to scans as the "problem" is entirely in your head. Or did you mean that Nyan San uses so many unscannable scouts that the people they're stomping can't see them coming, because none of their scanners can pick up the stealthiest scouts?

Contrary to your obsession with a fake problem, the real problem is that a logi can scan the enemy, see them coming, and be so ineffective when they arrive. The real problem is that EVEN WITH knowing where some the enemy is and the direction from which they're approaching, one class in particular is weaker than the others when the enemy arrives.

That's the priority fix that's needed. That's why your pretending that something as stupid as enabling assaults to duck scans is a higher priority, in this thread, is such a trollish thing to write.

Not doing your homework for you is not the same as not knowing how to do your homework for you. Truth is you have a bad conclusion because it's based on bad data. Pointing out that you have bad data is all I need to say. If you aren't capable of vetting your own info, that you choose to present, that you choose to use to justify your conclusion and try spreading anywhere you can find an ear for it while it's bad isn't my problem, it's yours. My problem is that for a guy who claims to be such an infallible resource of all things broken your conclusions are crap, because your data is crap and you're too invested in the convincing of people of the legitimacy of your [bad]conclusion to realize it.