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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1950	Posted - 2014.08.12 08:13:00 - [1] - Quote Role: priority target, AV, Sentinel CQC, Commando suppressor. Mostly of note are drop uplinks. They diminish the value of needles, rep tools and map control by making it easy to spam out seemingly dozens of the things into an area making it almost impodsible to clear them. Needles are in disfavor because uplinks are cleaner and more reliable. Rep tools: easy to use. Rarely deployed. There needs to be a shield rep tool badly so shield tankeers can compete with active rep armor suits. Nanohives: armor rep hives allow solo pubstars to eliminate the need for squad support. Most players use them in preference to rep tools as dropping two armor hives is more efficient than a rep logi. Needles: hardly anyone uses em. Most people prefer using uplink respawns. Scanners: have replaved most battlefield resupply and support tools as preferred method Commandos: have no functional value over the new assaults beyond better weapon selection and poorer fitting capability. The slower speed is going to kill them.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1950	Posted - 2014.08.12 10:01:00 - [2] - Quote Scanners need to have a margin for error, allowing suits to sometimes spoof the radar instead of being autodetection. I would make the chance low . Make the scanner light up the user on the radar to his targets. Rather like active sonar, it should work both ways. You pinpoint THEM, but they pinpoint YOU.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1951	Posted - 2014.08.12 11:38:00 - [3] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Great idea! ...as long as it applies to passive scans as well, not just the active scanner :P Negative sir, rather like passive sonar, if you aren't actively pinging you can sit and listen all damn day without alerting anyone so long as you don't fart too loudly. Passive scans are your sensors listening for EM feedback whether that feedback be some jerk broadcasting homoerotic slashfic over their comms or the energy signature of a charging forge gun. Since your passive sensors are not pinging nois out (hence passive) there is nothing to detect from them. But since an active scanner is pinging it should flash your ass to the enemy team.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1961	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:05:00 - [4] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Role: priority target, AV, Sentinel CQC, Commando suppressor. Mostly of note are drop uplinks. They diminish the value of needles, rep tools and map control by making it easy to spam out seemingly dozens of the things into an area making it almost impodsible to clear them. Needles are in disfavor because uplinks are cleaner and more reliable. Rep tools: easy to use. Rarely deployed. There needs to be a shield rep tool badly so shield tankeers can compete with active rep armor suits. Nanohives: armor rep hives allow solo pubstars to eliminate the need for squad support. Most players use them in preference to rep tools as dropping two armor hives is more efficient than a rep logi. Needles: hardly anyone uses em. Most people prefer using uplink respawns. Scanners: have replaved most battlefield resupply and support tools as preferred method Commandos: have no functional value over the new assaults beyond better weapon selection and poorer fitting capability. The slower speed is going to kill them. very wrong.. needles are good. they save clones ticking down in all game modes most notably ambush while uplinks are there to give players a faster way back to the hot zone at the time and most every logi should be running with a needle at all times.. typical loadout would be Needle rep-tool uplink.. or Needle, reptool,hive.. or sometimes in amboosh Needle, uplink,hive My point was uplinks as mobile spawn points that can be dropped a dozen at a time lessen the need for recovery equipment. It's often faster to have four people revive at an uplink than to needle and rep each one. Also uplinks reduce the need for map control and good movement habits. because uplink spam means you can instapop back up right on top of a contested objective. In all cases except outliers, he who spams links wins. I don't think one piece of equipment should overshadow all others that much.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1990	Posted - 2014.08.13 07:55:00 - [5] - Quote Midnight Cardinal wrote: Whenever I happen to come across such a display of dumbassery, I do what any logical person would. Which is to say, oh I don't know... maybe pack one of those undervalued grenades, what were thay again? Ahh, yes, Flux grenades. They have a decent range, destroy equipment, and you carry two with a basic varient. The spam has a rather effective counter, but not everyone uses it. So if you could squeeze some fluxes on to one of your suits, or alert a squadmate, maybe try telling your logi to pack some fluxes; then you will find that the spam can be combated to a degree of managable circumstances. To be honest, any contested objective should be thoroughly fluxed before the first heavy waddles onto the scene. (This isn't just for breakin stuff. This is for anyone whom has a similar problem with spamming equipment.) If it was just a matter of "flux the cluster" I would never have made the post. There are maps where the layout makes doing that physically impossible. Destroying equipment is easy. But it is excessively difficult where the only reliable way to destroy all 8-16 of them is to use two people on the ground hunting and an ADS above to spot which gantry they happen to be on and pick them off. Further there is very little equipment variation between 90% of players. I get needled one out of every eight matches. Rep tooks are rarely on the field and visibly employed. My comando does more repping than most logis. Standard ammo hives are sporadic at best. Its not JUST drop uplinks. They are the biggest culprit for devaluing other tools because they are the single most useful item in taking and holding ground. Add triage hives, scanners and such and you devalue needles, rep tools, standard hives, etc. The uplinks also devalue map control and coordinated attack methods. Why mass for an attack when you can continuously spawn bodies right into the assault point and lemming the defenders to death?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1990	Posted - 2014.08.13 10:06:00 - [6] - Quote Due to circumstances largely out of my control, solo usually. I am speaking more from a strategic, team level. I dont really care if I get caught by a smart enemy squad and repeatedly killed. So that has no bearing on the conversation. By smart I mean full support and focused fire, reps, whatever. When I find triage hive heroes I swap to mass drivers and f**k them up. I do not count "link lemmings" as smart squads even if they can be overwhelming fast. As far as more tactical? I would leave the number of links allowed to remain static. However I would make it so only 2 can be active at once. When one link is destroyed the next link in line goes hot. That way you cannot omni-vector an attack. You must still utilize tactics and map control. Alternately revert all drop uplinks to squad-only. The game should be about team tactics and reward teamwork, not cater to solo, wannabe Rambo pubstars. Would these changes likely hose me, the habitually solo player? Yes. Do I care? No. I'm not joining your pubbie squads of tryhards who care about these matches as anything more than personal entertainment and gank opportunities. But since that is my choice I am copacetic not receiving the same advantages of an organized squad.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1992	Posted - 2014.08.13 10:32:00 - [7] - Quote Were I to change any logi bonus I would give the armor rep bonus to the gallente, given that rep speed has always been a gallente thing. I would give minmatar the scan bonus for two reasons. 1: Target painters, which scanners are the closest thing to. Target painters are traditionally minnie ewar. 2: skirmish tactics. Being a fast attack is all well and good but fast, fragile groups that blindly dive on enemy positions die by the numbers. Intel makes fast attack viable. Personally I would give logis a passive Area recovery buff as a role bonus. Gallente logi: provides allied dropsuits +25% onboard repair when within 30m. This would be a bonus to your low slot reps. Not your rep tool. Minmatar: +25% reduction in shied recharge delay and depleted delay. Within 30m Caldari: +25% shield regen per second. After recharge delay ends. Within 30m Amarr: +10% damage resistance to armor in 30m Bonuses are not stackable. Bonus priority goes to matching suit class. So if you have a cal logi and amarr logi in range if you are in a gal/amarr suit the amarr logi bonus applies. Matching race to race as priority. Give people a reason to use racial doctrines
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1993	Posted - 2014.08.13 11:47:00 - [8] - Quote Bear in mind I dont think my amarr bonus example is a good idea. It's an example only. Reason: existing sentinel resistance bonusing. But I think bonuses like this would be more appropos than direct suit buffs to equipment types. And like warfare links, only one of these suit bonuses should apply to a squad. Solo pubstars should again be encouraged to join squads to benefit from logi bonuses. Emphasize teamwork and suit doctrine synergy. That makes logis a critical team component and a priority to kill/defend. But things that encourage new players to squad up are good. Things that encourage coordination and tactics are good. Buffing solo pubstars is bad. Scouts should be the only solo operators.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1996	Posted - 2014.08.13 14:25:00 - [9] - Quote Dont lecture me on tactics. Tactics are things (methods) you use to maximize strength and minimize weakness as a team. I have no sympathy for solo players. This includes myself. The tactical doctrine I am operating from is one born of my experience operating in squads. Both in game and IRL. There is no benefit to the team as a whole by catering to solo pubstars who do not squad up and coordinate for victory. Support is by definition a team role. Therefore it should be balanced according to operation in a squad. Support (team) roles include but are not limited to: Logistics. Sniper. Commando suppression. Sentinels period. AV. All of these roles are built to support a squad. The only role in this game that is intended to operate independently of squad support is the scout. The scout excels in this role. Now that being said, any one dropsuit, weapon or piece of equipment that outshines all others diminishes tactical choices by being clearly superior is bad for game balance and choice. By not utilizing drop uplinks, triage hives and scanners in the current meta YOU ARE GIMPING YOUR TEAM. This is a problem which needs to be addressed. Tactics are making choices that matter to achieve victory and engaging. When I task the squad newbro to "clear the enemy drop uplinks first!" While the hardened vets butcher the spawning enemy this is called "tactics." Logi/sentinel teams are a tactic. Having snipers call out concentrations of enemy while focusing on the elimination of rep tools this is a tactic. Simply bricktanking and bullrushing is a tactic. Its a stupid tactic. Building a squad around four plate loaded amarr assault supported by an HMG amarr sentinel, plated with a plated and rep tanked logi, with the four assaults carrying scramblers, the logi running a laser and the assault carrying two needles, two rep tools and the logi running a full support loadout is a strategy decision rife with synergy and fast recovery between assaults or enemy waves. The tactics that succeed will revolve around the strengths of an amarr brawler squad. Don't insult the intelligence of every person on this forum by claiming that you disliking my ideas means I dont know what tactics are. Im more aware of what that is than most of you all. I even get to draw on real life experience and training which translates phenomenally well into DUST. I believe that DUST should be balanced at the squad level, not based on solo weekend warrior anecdotes. Teamwork should be rewarded, Ramboing should be derided.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1996	Posted - 2014.08.13 15:26:00 - [10] - Quote RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote: You then say dust should be balanced at the squad level, yet, you want to balance around solo scum and brick tankers?. If that somehow slipped in there as a thing I need to find it and edit that crap out in a hurry. Screw solo scum. Screw brick tankers. I said brick tanking was a tactic, not a good one. Balance DUST around a team play.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2000	Posted - 2014.08.13 16:02:00 - [11] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Good to see the discussion still going strong, keep it up. Also, let's bring it a bit back round to focusing on each issue and suggestion more fully. Again, debating points, totally valid. Stating meta goals and their supporting or detracting reasons, quite useful. But making declarations such as "X play is stupid", "Y player type sucks", or "Z bit of gear is OP" doesn't really provide anything actionable. If something is bad, UP/OP or even just pisses you off, then sure, call it out but explain clearly and calmly why because simply making the declaration that "a,b,c are terribad and have to go" doesn't actually give me anything additional to work with or present. Thanks for keeping this thread live and hopping o7 Cross My problem with Links, triage hives and scanners is NOT that they are overpowered. They merely outshine OTHER methods in utility. A good armor rep will do 75 HP/sec-ish. A Triage hive will do 70/cycle (the most recent one I was hit with) to the entire squad and get them to max and can be refilled by doing a double suit swap at a supply depot. You can also have multiple triage hives dropped in a cluster around a corner for the rough equivalent of having 2-4 Logistics with rep tools fixing you simultaneously for fast recovery. Winner: Triage hive by a CLEAR margin over the armor repair tool. Scanners: they are now must-have. Because the Gal Logi is the only suit bonused for their use, Gal-Logi is the most commonly seen logi suit. Is the scanner by itself overpowered? Absolutely not. It's affect on the meta for logistic suit choice is disproportionate to it's utility because the only suit that can have a chance of spotting a scout with the device is the gallente logistics. Because rather than having a random margin for error, it's a simple if/and statement. Either you succeed or you fail with no variation or middle ground. Hence it is most useful to have a gallente suit on the field for tactical intel. Scouts are relegated to assassination. Drop uplinks: Can be spammed in large tight clusters around objectives, do not cease functioning when you die/refit and can be placed in impossible to kill spots. I've seen them place IN walls deliberately where fluxes cannot touch them. Further the sheer AMOUNT of spam means everyone on the team can rock and attack/assassin fit without any support roles because you can quick muster on top of an objective and lemming-drop en masse. The only place where this is counterable is when the uplinks are all clustered in one spot (Like in a room on the same floor level together). That allows for fluxing, but most people aren't stupid, and find interesting places to hide them out of nade radius of each other. To continue, respawning at an uplink as a group means everyone pops up at full health, max ammo, and refreshed equipment. They minimize the need to hold capture points, supply depots and CRUs. You can substitute uplinks for armor reps, needles and hives combined because you can, in fact, drown the enemy in bodies, Stalin style. There is little to no drawback to choosing uplinks, and every advantage by doing so. They are the single most useful piece of equipment in the game all the way back to beta when the watchword was "Don't revive me, I'll spawn at the link with full health." In no case are these three items overpowered individually. But it's the affect on the meta and tactical choices that make other decisions less meaningful the way they are right now. They are easy substitutes that have greater efficiency than other pieces of equipment. Also before someone starts ranting about logi + sentinel combo, consider the Mass Driver. Once it is employed the logi must disengage from the sentinel or die. your buddies can pick off the sentinel rapidly after.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2000	Posted - 2014.08.13 16:12:00 - [12] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Also, with the latest hotfix if anything has changed your feedback due to the altered context please note that when posting so that we can properly track the effects of the hotfix process regarding this topic. Thanks Cross My statements should be unaffected by hotfix charlie given the patch notes I read.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2009	Posted - 2014.08.13 21:46:00 - [13] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: So, the title asks for logi and support feedback, yet all people talks about is logistic dropsuits and Scout suits. Bummer, as vehicles do exist,and in some form or another they are support tools, really mainly support tools. Yet they've been turned into a bloody ******* mess. vehicles are there to support infantry pushes so vehicular roles in support (of particular note is the mobile CRU) then its a valid thing. its not a discussion of AV and interactions with killing/being killed.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2011	Posted - 2014.08.14 07:48:00 - [14] - Quote Oh the previous poster absolutely brings up s brilliant point. Logis do not have the speed to support a push of assaults. This is a massive problem given their low survivability under fire. A logi caught alone is likely helpless against opportunistic killers. They need to be as fast as a assault team of the same race. I would posit that making a logi 10-15% faster than an assault so they can respond faster to needed support actions and can dive for cover when under direct fire. In my experience in coordinated squad vs coordinated squad, whoever loses the logi first gets shredded.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2063	Posted - 2014.08.15 11:25:00 - [15] - Quote Meee One wrote: Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: Personally I think there is no need to change anything. I've been a Min Logi since 1.2 and was my first role. I play as such for 70% of squad games. I can fit great equipment, decent health (with good shields too) and a respectable weapon. And I'm certainly not helpless. With a good team who understands your limitations and appreciates the support we give we don't need to be directly in the line of fire, so weapons and health are not a priority, especially since we have such an impact on a game by equipment - which doesn't have to be used directly. I don't see how we can need any more Equipment on the other hand does need revisiting. And even then I'd say only the injector is in dire need of adjustment. For starters take it off the medic starter fits. Its not a medic if it can't ensure its team is combat effective. Give them rep tools instead. Then tier the WP for better needles. Cus most of the playerbase is selfish and want WP so would rather use a rusty needle and rep tool. After that think about only awarding WP to the user after a successful revive. Its not a revive if you dive out of cover to Rambo into fire and try picking up a teammate for +60 wp (and award +100 to the enemy, but people forget that part -_- ) I'm going to try to say this in the nicest way possible... A single logistics should require a whole team to keep them alive? Requiring even a squad is asking too much. If everyone is guarding the logi,who then would take the objectives? Sentinels should be jumping in front of the logis. You are big, fat, ammo hungry and they are trying to murder your enabler. Hop to it.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2140	Posted - 2014.08.16 08:04:00 - [16] - Quote Support is not everything but combat. Sentinels are support but they are a combat role. They arent meant to play solo pubstar and for every ten solo nerds you have one who properly supports squads, acts as an anvil for the assault hammer and generally does the suit class right. Now. Soapbox is over. Logistics cost is ridiculous. A protofit logi costs 120,000 ISK more than my CQC killer and AV fits. Regardless of the fact that logi is a rock solid force multiplier, the risks involved in having to pay a million isk for four suits versus my 7-8 door kicker party suits seems rather out of whack. I believe that logis should be paying similar cost to a sentinel brickmonster, not more. Their survivability does not justify the cost.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2171	Posted - 2014.08.16 22:39:00 - [17] - Quote Meee One wrote: While you're looking at the logistics suits.... Fix the Min logis stats. It has more armor than shields and it's supposed to be a shield based race. It has 90 shields and 150 armor. Minnies are an either/or race for shield/armor. Sometimes they skip all that crap and rock out to heavy metal, juice the engines up to "GODDAMN THING WILL EXPLODE IF A FLY FARTS!" and put the biggest goddamned guns they can find on their gear and try to outdo themselves levelling cities with personal artillery cannons.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2231	Posted - 2014.08.19 09:38:00 - [18] - Quote Said my piece. Have fun
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2241	Posted - 2014.08.20 11:50:00 - [19] - Quote Gee because accusing the devs of hating X class has gotten SO much positive response in the past.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2284	Posted - 2014.08.21 15:39:00 - [20] - Quote Sum1ne Else wrote: Give an innate explosive damage resistance; this would need to be increased through the tiers, 5, 10, 20% through STD, ADV, PROTO respectively. Dear God no. Mass Drivers are literally one of the only ways to force a logi OFF a heavy long enough to burn the fat man down without finding a way to gank the logi outright. I don't think we need to be making MORE suits that resist splash damage, or we'll be rolling right back around to various weapons being utterly useless because :resists:

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2289	Posted - 2014.08.22 11:50:00 - [21] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Remotes: game breaking. Need to be changed so you have to sKet them and wait Uplinks: protos need more HP Nanohives: protos need more HP. I heard the ones that rep and give ammo break when heavies use them. They get sucked up too fast giving them ammo? Not sure. Nanite Injectors: just needs better "hit" detection and please find a way to get rid of the indicators that send me on a deadly wild goose chase to an empty spot with a needle icon on it. Thanks for again for focusing on this! Unattended equipment should be easy to destroy. they do not "require more HP." Nor does it need to be easier for people to stand inside triage hives and have them weather a mass driver barrage intended to remove them from play.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2291	Posted - 2014.08.22 14:11:00 - [22] - Quote No, there needs to be more reptools, less rep hives. Rep hives devalue logistics players and make repair spam trivial.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2530	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:28:00 - [23] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: True Adamance wrote: Logistic Suits - DO NOT need more EHP - Logisitics Suits need to be incentivised to use utility modules and not EHP stack - Logistics Role Bonuses should emphasis the role and be unilateral, especially in the case of the Rep tool bonuses, as no one race in EVE dominates remote reps. Please elaborate in detail on points one and two because at present they seem to be in contradiction to each other. Looking forward to your reply Cheers, Cross Let me take a stab at this. Point 1: Logis can tank stack. They have the option to roll a heavy EHP buffer at the cost of equipment utility. Adding EHP runs back into this issue. If they use tanking modules they can be hard to kill (I see a lot of logistics suit snipers for this reason). Point 2: There's little/no reason for a logistics to rock KinCats, precision mods, cardiac regulators, etc. Because they do not provide a lot of utility (just some) there is little to no reason for a logi to choose them over a armor plate, rep or shield mod. Further, only the Gallente Logi can be specced to detect scouts. Since EWAR/Detection/Dampening is a simple binary Yes/No with no margin for error (you either never see them, or always see them) there is no reason to try to use a logistics as a detection platform. Point 3: I think he's full of it here. There's a lot of room for logi specialization here without homogenization. If we were to apply a logi role bonus to each race Gallente could get +repair cycle speed, Minmatar get + amount, caldari get +range and amarr get... shot. Ok not the last but you get the idea. Honestly I'm of the opinion that Logis are TOO pigeonholed largely. They need to have advantages and disadvantages along similar veins that are universal. Gallente: 5% reduction to equipment cycle time per level Caldari: +5% to equipment effect range per level (hive radius, rep tool range, etc.) Minmatar: +5% to amount of equipment benefit (ammo per hive cycle, armor repped, etc.) Amarr: +1 equipment carried per level (not necessarily deployable at the same time)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2530	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:30:00 - [24] - Quote I'd like to see certain pieces of equipment given better utility to make them as useful as hives and droplinks. The recent change to needles idea is one I can get behind. makes needles a lot more useful. But the droplink/armor hive meta needs to be broken.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2548	Posted - 2014.09.05 11:56:00 - [25] - Quote Its only farming vehicle damage if you are actively aiming to drive them off like a yo-yo. Still a useful behavior assisting the team. I aim for the kill, personally. Killing half a dozen expensive vehicles is hilarious. You dont have to farm them. If you shoot to kill at all times you help your team immensely while racking up the kills and WP. Farming vehicle damage would require a qsync in FW where your payouts are static, unaffected by killboard position, and where OB are unaffected by WP. Once rattati puts the new matchmaking into effect if you see people doing it report them for boosting.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2550	Posted - 2014.09.05 12:05:00 - [26] - Quote Demonsbane your antagonistic, murderous bad attitude towards boosters has been noted and found giggleworthy. Kill them.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2552	Posted - 2014.09.05 15:50:00 - [27] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Demonsbane your antagonistic, murderous bad attitude towards boosters has been noted and found giggleworthy. Kill them. Approval by the goons. I must be doing it ~~wrong~~ ~~right~~ ~~wrong~~? I'm so conflicted. I don't needlef**k because it boosts KDR. I do it because it LOWERS yours. And sitting in the back circlejerking to farm WP is a special kind of lame-ass stupid. I'd kill everything involved because screw vehicles. burn.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2565	Posted - 2014.09.05 22:40:00 - [28] - Quote Any opinion prefaced with "this shouldn't be allowed because it is low skilled" should be relentlessly mocked for being stupid, anecdotal and more or less functionally useless as constructive criticism.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2595	Posted - 2014.09.06 15:54:00 - [29] - Quote Meee One wrote: like using an LAV to get kills, If you're crossing the street in front of me, I'm not going to politely hit the brakes. i'm going to accelerate and bulldoze you. or using an HMG + LAV combo. This is what we refer to as "minimizing one's weaknesses." Just because CCP failed to program a "get in, get out" animation so fatties don't teleport into jeeps is the fault of the game designer, not the player using the jeeps to kill you. And broken....like a scout tossing an RE,taking 3 steps back and blowing it up not killing themselves in the process while the other suits at the REs location can't RUN and escape the blast. This is why mass drivers are useful. Plasma cannons too. Usually puts a stop to that crap. -or- a nearly dead enemy (scout) getting shot swapping to a different suit (1000 armor heavy with an HMG) and getting full health and invulnerability at a supply depot. *Oh no, he swapped to a heavy! I have enough ammo in the Boundless. Bring it Btch. -or- snipers quickly shooting a second or even third time and being dead on target -or- large blasters sniping from 200m away (they can again) Snipe 'em back. it works for me. Forge Gun Vs. Blaster tankat 200m = dead Blaster Tank -or- REs being counted as equipment yet refilling at nanos. But i would agree if it didn't feel so cheap. Cheap thrills are the best thrills. They cost little and provide much satisfaction. People wouldn't complain if "low skilled" methods had counters,but they don't. They do, but "run straight at the heavy" is not one of them. -Equip a swarm to kill the LAV/HAV,driver kills you because you only have a sidearm (usually). Been there, done that. He still lost the tank. My dropsuit was MUCH less painful on the wallet. -Sniper can't be killed except by sniping This is not universal. Not all snipers are cheese-eating fktards. I've seen a few with actual balls. -Can't escape from REs dropped from 30m above your head. I challenge you to escape the mass driver bombardment from 30m up. -Scouts can regenerate damage as you shoot them (almost),and they can OHK you. Almost only countsin horseshoes and hand grenades, I'm bluntly shocked that you're madder about THIS than them being binary undetectable. -Can't disarm REs without killing your allies. I consider this a feature, not a bug. blueberry shoulda been looking to disarm them himself. Am I an ass for waiting to destroy the RE till AFTER he starts the hack? Yeah ok, sure. But I was also one of the pioneers of the grenade ganks and have a very hard time passing up the opportunity to gank blues at least once a match. -Watching a scout throw down a hive,then spam drop REs on an objective. You can only deploy three of each type, the excess ones disappear. Next time shoot the RE while the scout is dropping them. Hilarity ensues. -Heavies turn insanely fast while spraying bullets,making escape impossible. Why the hell are you engaging a heavy in CQC you twit? CQC is where heavies are strongest by design. What, are you expecting them to flail about helplessly like aturtle on it's back while you merrily shoot them in the side of the head? There's a reason that crap got changed. -ADS hovers over allies spamming missiles (pilot stacking) I'm a forge gunner. this is a scenario I live for. Kill ADS, make crash on bluedot heads. They wouldn't be used if there were effective counters. There are effective counters. Just because they are either not obvious or difficult to pull off doesn't mean they don't exist. By your logic people should feel bad about shooting a caldari dropsuit with triple-modded scrambler rifles. It's low-skill and trivial. Here's a hint, Junior Mint: This game is about warfare, and in warfare if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2906	Posted - 2014.09.20 13:00:00 - [30] - Quote The original slayer logi epidemic was caused DIRECTLY by the logis originally having the caldari assault bonus to shield extenders, and being able to rock more fittings which allowed a logistics suit to brick up to the level of sentinels at the time. The only way you will get slayer logis now is by repeating the mistake that allowed logis to beat all other suit classes in the ability to fit and stack extenders and plates. Currently logis are squishy. They have a bigger hitbox than scouts. If they want to actually be a logi badass they have to sacrifice tank and weapon for equipment. Buffing speed is not going to make a slayer logi. Making the equipment bonuses better will not make slayers. The slayer logi is a symptom of not balancing EHP. Logis should be using their TEAMMATES as their primary HP buffer. But if we don't give thwm the ability to bricktank again? You will not see a slayer because the current meta is extenders > rechargers and plates > reps. While it's not really true it is the perception. But keeping the logis between assaults and scouts defensively will prevent slayer logis. You can literally buff almost everything else 20% and not have it happen again.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2969	Posted - 2014.09.22 16:48:00 - [31] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I find the idea of weaponless logis horrific. I found it not worth commenting on, or considering seriously.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3076	Posted - 2014.09.23 21:58:00 - [32] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I have a couple specific questions I would like a re-focus on. 1. Current status of fittings resources (CPU/PG) per race from each player who runs them. In other words where do you see shortfalls and why? Does any aspect seem overly generous and where/why? Please make sure you are responding with regards to suits you can field yourself and bonus points if you include specific fittings and/or mods in your descriptions. 2. Presuming the notion of a secondary (weaker) equipment bonus were being added to the frames, what would you advocate those secondary bonuses be - please list by race and include the reasoning behind your selection - and would such a method, in your view, require the alteration or substitution of any current/primary bonus (if yes which ones, how, and what is the rational behind that). Thanks, Cross Since the Caldari Sentinel is a support role... I'll give you all time to die or recover from shock that I admit this... The PG/CPU is too tight. I haven't tested full frontal tank but 2 damage mods, complex extender, complex recharger, pretty much anything (useful) in the lows and a proto Heavy Weapon (Ishukone Assault Forge in this case) means you have to completely forego even a STD sidearm and Nade. None of the other suits must make this compromise. I know because I have them all at 5. You can run proto tank and weapon but crap for secondaries. The CalSent must sacrifice secondaries entirely to fit a similar setup. While I'm thinking about it. Be Right Back with the numbers. Ok the Heavy Damage Mods eat all the resources on the fit. Running three extenders and an energizer with regulator (complex) I can fit the heavy weapons with a toxin and STD nades. Oh, Heavy Damage Mods are Useless. Don't use them.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3123	Posted - 2014.09.24 16:42:00 - [33] - Quote Hate to say this, but HAV guns need a bit more juice. I'm against the removal of the rail splash because tanks DO need an anti-infantry method not dependent upon secondary turrets. The idea that HAVs should not be effective killing infantry IS asinine in my opinion. I know many disagree but bluntly the tank owner needs a better shot at defending against people like me. They need to be able to put supporting fire on an objective to suppress and kill infantry in a push. I think we have achieved overnerfing the offensive capacities of HAVs at this point. I would like to be challenged by them when I kill them. HAVs ARE support vehicles. They cannot support if they are impotent against infantry and only of use against LAVs and HAVs. yes people get mad when tanks start gunning them down. This is why AV weapons were created. The idea that an HAV owner should be wholly dependent upon SOMEONE ELSE to protect them was a bad decision IMHO. Should they be vulnerabe to infantry AV? they always were once the 1.7 insanity went away. As an AV gunner I have no sympathy to most infantry who will not swap fits to a tank cracker fit and then ***** that the tanks kill them too easy. Unless a tank is bricktanked, I have no real difficulty killing them. There should be a 50/50 chance of a tank busting my chops when run by a driver who is as good at driving as I am at AV. The survival rate just dropped sharply. I am an AV gunner, I have zero points dropped into HAVs. HAVs should not have their infantry killing capabilities taken away when Infantry still have access to AV weapons. expecting tanks to go play private party World of Tanks while infantry farm them is just as bad as tanks farming infantry with impunity. thank you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3139	Posted - 2014.09.25 06:18:00 - [34] - Quote Cross' OP specifically called out ALL support roles. Not just logis. Therefore HAVs are relevant to topic. Just because ya want it to be only about the logistics suit does not make it so.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3303	Posted - 2014.09.30 10:10:00 - [35] - Quote As far as logis go I think they should only be able to deploy a single hive or droplink at a time (this goes double for everyone else). With the caveat that the deployables should last significantly longer (if you are wearing a logi suit) and provide commisurately more benefit per unit. This would prevent: Quad armor hive tanking. Deliberate spam lag. Zerg rush lemming link placement. And would encourage loginerds to carry more options than four varieties of droplinks and/or hives. Repair guns? Scanners? Injectors? Limiting deployables will force more careful use than "spam all my hives around a supply depot to easy farm warpoints!" Once we do that, the logis need some survivability/escape/evasion love.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3303	Posted - 2014.09.30 10:30:00 - [36] - Quote Armor hives near resupply points makes sense. Reload hives is just whoring.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3329	Posted - 2014.09.30 22:53:00 - [37] - Quote breaks my commando suits where my gear is so PG/CPU tight my options are needle or rep tool.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3329	Posted - 2014.09.30 23:05:00 - [38] - Quote Very basic. PG/cpu is too tight for more than STD/MLT I tend to opt for repping people while my armor rep modules get to work. Nine times out of ten the logis aren't repping.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3338	Posted - 2014.10.01 18:39:00 - [39] - Quote Commando doesn't sufer not having proto gear. It suffers because you cannot fit prox mines or REs and have to use a needle or ep gun. Lack of optuons after solid module and weapon fit
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3342	Posted - 2014.10.02 07:45:00 - [40] - Quote Unfortunately cross I have no idea just how tight the commandos really are until I am off work and bust out a calculator or get my light weapons to 5 and all of the light weapon optimizations to 4. All I know is that I'm aiming for basic RE/prox mines and I can only get that on two of my fits. Hives/links are right out ATM. Otherwise I have engineering/electronics 5. So I need to defer to more heavily specced commando users. But no I was never advocating that commandos need proto rep gear. Basic serves my purpose there easily as a secondary logi assistant. I would like commandos to have an eadier time fitting offensively aspected equipment. Scanners, explosives, mines and non rep hives seem most appropriate given they are specced for havoc and suffer rapid ammo depletion if you survive longer than three minutes.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3420	Posted - 2014.10.06 18:15:00 - [41] - Quote in order for your proposed equipment changes to work you have to have the gear be universally recognized as the same thing: Which means you have to have a militia uplink = templar uplink = proto uplink as far as the game is concerned. a lot of the uplink spam is caused by suits with 3-4 different classes of uplinks and dropping two of each of them. So it needs to treat ALL uplinks as the same item to prevent that mass spam cluster. Same with hives and any other deployable. otherwise no solution will be had. I like the 1 uplink = 1 spawn idea best.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3420	Posted - 2014.10.06 18:57:00 - [42] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: (If you could just get people off the "spam=lag" bandwagon that might be helpful, that longstanding misperception drives a lot of displaced logi hate.) Totally agreed and as such I will reiterate here yet again, just so it is in another place on the forums, that I have actively tested the notion that deployed equipment creates substantive lag and have been unable to reproduce the effect during my tests. Further I have encountered my most sever cases of lag (in Pubs/FW) during games with hardly any (or even no) equipment present on field prior to/during the onset of lag. In PC matches I have encountered intense lag in situations both with and without substantial deployed equipment present and have seen no meaningful trend or corollary within that context. It could be that for some reason my particular playstation 3 is just immune to the purported lag caused by deployed equipment, but that is highly implausible. 0.02 ISK Cross i just hate the spam because it allows teams to simply lemming the defenders to death in certain maps (orbital artillery, Gallente lab) as a substitute for tactical movements and actually breaching an area. Oh look the entire enemy team spawned with rail rifles in the gantries, how charming... oh i was wrong. there's the scouts right on schedule with the shotguns.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3424	Posted - 2014.10.06 21:26:00 - [43] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Updating my vote from Method 2, to Method 2b. The big 4 should be best in a Logi's hands. Also, thoughts on swapping the Min Logi's Shield and Armor HP values? 160 Shield, 120 Armor? Stats would align more closely with the other Min suits. Seems sensible to me on first blush, anyone have reasons to raise why moderating the Min Logi profile to fit with the rest of the Min suits would be a poor change? there really isn't a rational argument other than aesthetic value or some random jerkey liking it better that way.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3520	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:49:00 - [44] - Quote The trick here, that cross is slipping around, is it's hard to balance a logi for meaningful support play without causing DUST to devolve into blob or Zerg warfare whwre everyone must focus fire (primary) on the guy the logi is repping or be annihilated by the numbers. In EVE you need to be able to rep tank because there are only so many ways you can get instablapped. (Being the tackle frigate diving on a double-webbed vindicator would be a good example of instant death) In DUST Since human reaction and aim is the deciding factor if we made reps comparable to EVE you're gonna pass out from boredom before you crack the sentinel's tank.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3520	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:09:00 - [45] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: So is the non-buff of Sprint speeds (say .25%, like movement) to alleviate concerns of "slayer-logi" terror? Slayer logi was only a thing because they could out-tank an assault and could damn near match sentinels. That's it. That is the sordid story of the slayer logi. You could literally buff every non-EHP stat the logi has by 20% and not achieve slayer logi so long as assaults field a significantly better tank. But that's mostly because this community is full of mentally handicapped dingbats who think EHP>ALL. I find the addition of precision mods to an HMG to be amazing even if only a slight boost. Increases my survivability by a wide margin. But more seriously logis need to be better at using equipment than any other suit and they need to be able to escape to allies and fire support. Solo logi should be suicide.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3520	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:33:00 - [46] - Quote I wasn't contradicting, just adding. The problem with the unarmed logi is the same as the slow turning heavy back in beta. A feeling of impotence. When you cannot make even a token gesture of defiant bloodshed against an attacker you don't fell like a valuable team member. You feel like a victim. No one plays vidya games to be the victim unless they need serious psych help. IMHO the logi needs to have the speed of a assault so they can respond to changing situations, reach downed allies quickly and get behind cover (like a sentinel) when the shooting starts. They need to be more efficient in using equipment than combat suits. This is imperative, even if that means nerfing equipment and bonusing logis to use them at full efficacy. The only exceptions to this rule would be scanners and explosives. Logistics need to not be able to field assault level tank. This was the direct cause of the slayer logi. End. Stop. Look no further for the cause. Logistics do not fare well in a solo pubstar environment because blueberries are idiots. A logistics fit properly costs almost 50%more than a comparable sentinel or assault suit. Losing said fits because your dingleberry allies cannot comprehend that they need to wait up is intensely frustrating. Logistics are mostly ignored by friendly players except sentinels. The sentinel/logi pair is a natural because fatboy is the only ally the suit can keep up with. The sentinel benefit from logi reps more than other suits and more WP can be earned shoving fat intestines back in fat bellies because the HP pool is deep and guardian awards are plentiful. But logi play is stagnant. Most logi suitas are tourist fits used to spam equipment then frag off to a killer fit because no one wants to be a victim, or to tether themselves to sone donut-munching HMG heavy who may or may not understand which way the weapon is supposed to be pointed. Logis are not incentivized to be pro squad players because the squads leave them In the dust with the fatsuits who are relegated to protecting cap points and playing squad bait.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3526	Posted - 2014.10.09 21:54:00 - [47] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: A boat-ton of stuff Remember when mass driver logis were a primary support staple to assault squads? Good times.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3535	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:53:00 - [48] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Because this is one of the most complete single post summaries of current logi related troubles that I have had the opportunity to read. o7 I try to pay attention to how and why I'm gutting someone successfully. Logis are basically free warpoints unless the merc is slicker than a greased weasel. But on a more serious note, anyone watching blueberry and red dot behavior will easily note certain patterns. Right now equipment spam IS the logistics meta. It's the most effective way to gain WP and thus ISK. But all of the other weak points contribute to Logis being very rightly risk-averse. It's rather annoying, because a logi in support of an assault squad would be a force multiplier far more useful to a team than having that same logi leashed to a sentinel's ass. Sorry my fat brethren, but the whole logis are chubby chasers meta needs to be shifted to logis being the life of the party. Who the hell else is going to bring the nano-assembled beer kegs?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3535	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:55:00 - [49] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: The the changes, and now my proto MD sits on a shelf 99% of the time. Take it off the shelf. I'm going to say two words, and I'm going to let the implications sink in and make you cackle insanely: Scout Hunting.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3538	Posted - 2014.10.10 00:06:00 - [50] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross Atu wrote: The the changes, and now my proto MD sits on a shelf 99% of the time. Take it off the shelf. I'm going to say two words, and I'm going to let the implications sink in and make you cackle insanely: Scout Hunting. considers... results = goes to build fit Now you understand how I think. There is no such thing as impossible. There is only "How much explosives am I going to need?"

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3540	Posted - 2014.10.10 07:44:00 - [51] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross Atu wrote: The the changes, and now my proto MD sits on a shelf 99% of the time. Take it off the shelf. I'm going to say two words, and I'm going to let the implications sink in and make you cackle insanely: Scout Hunting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcinzmfZeCc Yeah that's about how I felt the first time I blew an ADV MD off at a calscout's feet. It was heartwarming.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4298	Posted - 2014.11.01 13:25:00 - [52] - Quote I love how you phrase every suggestion in the form of an ultimatum. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4776	Posted - 2014.11.10 10:29:00 - [53] - Quote RKKR wrote: Cross, Why is CCP even considering to change the orbital system (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=179453&find=unread) before adjusting the support role? It's already no fun to run around when you have used up all your deployable equipment and now they want to make it even more useless by making it more easier than it is now to destroy equipment. Why can't they fix the support role first before implementing this? (enough ideas were already given in the past) The game is too dependent upon equipment spam. Logis are too squishy but every match is decided by who can vomit out the mpst equipment. This needs to be fixed or logis will simply swing 180 and stay a problem in the game. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4777	Posted - 2014.11.10 10:56:00 - [54] - Quote RKKR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: The game is too dependent upon equipment spam. Yes they should focus on this problem, not a counter to this problem. Nerfing the utter crap out of, or removing uplinks entirely is the only way to deal with the problem without providing a counter. Your logic is flawed. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5066	Posted - 2014.11.17 10:47:00 - [55] - Quote Just make shield transporters and armor rep exclusive. Cannot lock a target that is being repped or having shields repped. Since native regen is powerful all shield transporters should do is keep regen going and add +15/+20/+25 shields regenerated. Putting them at the same rep numbers as armor reps ould be horrendously broken. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5071	Posted - 2014.11.17 12:42:00 - [56] - Quote Because you get proportionally more benefit by having the same amount of rep on a tinier HP pool. Self regen is supposed to be the strength of shield fits over HP. Providing a greater benefit to a smaller HP Pool will simply change the most favored fit from amarr/gallente sentinel to caldari and minmatar. This benefits no one. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5088	Posted - 2014.11.17 20:35:00 - [57] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Because you get proportionally more benefit by having the same amount of rep on a tinier HP pool. Self regen is supposed to be the strength of shield fits over HP. Providing a greater benefit to a smaller HP Pool will simply change the most favored fit from amarr/gallente sentinel to caldari and minmatar. This benefits no one. Only true if you use the rep tool to repair people AFTER a fight. If you repair DURING a fight, a larger health pool is better. This is why AmSentinels stack plates instead of reps. The more health you have to repair, the longer that health pool lasts before the DPS overwhelms your reps and the sentinel dies. An armor rep at 150 hp/s on a 1344 health pool and a shield rep at 150 hp/s on a 929 health pool, which lasts longer? The 1344 health pool. If anything, the shield rep tools should be higher than armor rep tools since shield is focused on regen. Shields aren't meant to be stand and deliver defense or good for brawling. Rep tools with even numbers with armor would merely encourage the behavior and laziness over tactics. It'll also just change most favored suits from Amsent/galsent to Calsent/Minsent. So we swap one idiocy engine for the same thing with different looks. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5267	Posted - 2014.11.24 05:23:00 - [58] - Quote Logis in EVE don't work like logis in DUST at all. They have a similar function, but that isn't the same as being the same thing. Use the concepts for comparison but trying to make dropsuits work like ships is kinda like trying to make a devout, peace-loving pacifist with anxiety issues into a United States or Royal Marine. Probably not going to work well. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5607	Posted - 2014.12.03 10:47:00 - [59] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: Just going to add on about rep tools cooldown. I hope the class wide cooldown is significant,because if it isn't,you'll see a resurgence of killer bees. Not because they want to be killers,but because they now have so much more free time. -scans on 30 second cooldown -out of deployables -no one calling for rez -use rep tool? (nope,it's on cooldown) What does this leave logistics users? Their weapon. And as such,logistics users will be forced to change fittings to accommodate this new meta. Knowing there will be times they can't support,they will upgrade their weapon. Which is why the cooldown decrease must be significant. Unless,of course,CCP likes/liked logi slayers and wants to bring them back. Oh, dude. The slayers are coming back. BW has guaranteed it. Correct. They're called Assaults. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5628	Posted - 2014.12.04 13:05:00 - [60] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Well adaptation to changes is part of this game. So I made some suits to compensate the EQ BW. Mostly I reduced the amount of Uplinks on my first spawn to 4 deployed. Than I can spawn a commando without loosing too much (if Apex, all good). If I want to stay logi, I just spawn a tanked version of the first spawn, that has just a scanner (pro), a pathetic hive (compact) and a dirty needle. There you go, better survivability and still getting points from those links... Support though... well not so much. Cheers Prevention of death is in all ways superior to assisting a respawns. Take the change from that view and the logic on the BW value of hives vs. Uplinks makes more sense. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5702	Posted - 2014.12.09 20:33:00 - [61] - Quote Meee One wrote: Auris Lionesse wrote: a non combat logi is fine. but it cant be that powerful. it still needs to be killable in order to take out squads. otherwise 5 super logis on 1 sentinel would be literally unkillable by a whole team. meeones idea is way to much. they should keep the side arm though. but make it like pistols only. no smgs and stuff. syphon filter splits weapons in 3 categorys. your main weapon, light weapons in this case. and smgs go into an auxillary category. then sidearms are the same. itd be like a sidearm/smallweapons/light weapons/heavy weapons in dust. good for scouts and logis. anyway. logis will never be correct until all the repair tools are in the game and properly distributed. there needs to be the shield repair tool and the armor tool needs to go to gal and amarr as ive already said on previous occasions. Ok then,what would you suggest as a fair trade for all offensive ability? Nothing. There is no such thing as a useful noncombatant on the battlefield. Logistics are a PRIME reason why I say you cannot balance in DUST the way you do in EVE. And those ships in EVE are fragile as all hell. there is no precedent for an obnoxiously tanky, non-shooting walking target that reps people and spams hives. Never mind that the only way to make the defenses viable would be to make it able to tank past an HMG Heavy's overheat. Otehrwise you just get chopped to chutney anyway. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

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