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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1600
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Posted - 2014.08.25 18:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
logis can never be fixed not when any amount of ehp buff or slot changes will only effect their slayer attributes and not their ability to support.
when i am a support player on the battlefield i know i am the weakest target on the field yet probably the most expensive so a prime target for any other player no matter what fit they are in. alternatively i can reduce my support abilities to become a bit less squishy but then i become a slayer logi and then i am fueling the slayer logi argument.
im my eyes all classes should be combat first then their role. this way slayer arguments are void because we are all slayers. our roles would divide us all on how we take up our role. specific combat orientated classes become better killers through their roles and support classes do not need to forgo their role in order to compete and survive.
some of my previous ideas on how to address the support issue
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=123577&find=unread
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2235572#post2235572
All Hail Legion
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1601
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Posted - 2014.08.29 16:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
just a basic idea for take the numbers lightly.
give logis similar base stats to their assault counterparts with slightly less cpu/pg then give them a new universal module for high or low which gives a:
75%-90% reduction to cpu/pg of equipment
up to 1% increase to cpu/pg per equipment carried (scaling to meta level 1% per proto equipment).
what this does is encourages players to carry the best equipment and as much of it as they can and without having to be wafer thin on the field yet when not carrying equipment you cannot slayer fit the logi but it can still compete to a degree as an assault alternative but with lower efficiency.
so a proper logi would benefit from most of his cpu/pg for tank etc and his equipment would have little detrimental effect on his tank ability.
a slayer logi would only have the same base cpu/pg as the proper logi but would have 1 free low or high slot in order to extra tank or extra dps his suit but not surpassing the assault but surpassing his proper logibro in ehp or dps.
obviously suit bonus would have to be tweaked or the module bonus reduced and stacked with the suit bonus meaning full logi benefits from the full whack while the slayer type logi benefits to a much lesser degree but potential for frontline combat fits like combat medics etc
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1602
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Posted - 2014.08.30 15:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
all this talk about +1 extra equipment deployed or other buffs to equipment will not work because it doesn't address any of the issues around why so few players use logi's or use them as logis.
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1603
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Posted - 2014.08.30 17:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:I think the only problem with the level 5 proposition is that it will keep new players from being a logi and the spam monkeys will just use scout suits instead. And thats the point. Keep full noobs with no real idea how to conduct themselves in battle out of logi frames so they instead will use their starters or other mediums to do basic "how-to" development. And the spammers will use their other frames also which limits their ability to spam, limiting the ill-effects of the spam like lag or worthless/detrimental placement and the subsequent ill reputation logis as a whole get from it. It could also keep some of the slayer oriented folks away, since it would not just be more effective battlefield-wise (from the bonuses) to use an assault(scout) to slay it'd be cheaper SP-wise. Granted, after a certain point a couple hundred thousand SP isn't a huge threshold for experienced players, whats that, a week or two of active play? BUT early on, when gaining and using SP is most important a couple hundred thousand extra to unlock the fit may be enough to deter those who aren't actually into running logistics from entering logistics and keep them in the other categories. Experienced players ideally would have a more well rounded idea of what goes on, a better reference as to what is expected of a logi and an easier time getting the SP to make the investment in the class. Thereby possibly increasing the quality of the logistics playerbase as a whole.
this punishes those players who enjoy helping others and might deter them from going into the logi role when others are much easier to get into. this wont fix anything. infact it will further reduce the amount of logis on the field and with a higher minimum sp requirement than all other classes it will probably be the nail in the coffin.
remember logis already have the highest sp requirements of all other suits due to equipment. adding more sp requirements just to get into logi is just a bad idea
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1605
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Posted - 2014.08.30 18:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:
I think its the opposite actually, this ensures that those who are serious about helping and doing support are the ones who enter the class. And trading a small portion of the worthless logis to increase the in-battle value of worthwhile logis is a good rrade. We are built not just to provide support but also require support to be successful. Many, many players tho are slow or don't protect the logis because many too many "logis" are just spam/WP whoring idiots. The higher the entry bar, the higher the quality potential and more likely logis will be considered as deserving of the support they need to survive giving the support they provide.
i came into this game and started as a logi/av player 100% player support on my mind. i didn't care at all about killing other players directly. a lot of players feel this way. they don't mind the odd kill but they enjoy all the support mechanics and items much, much more than killing. all this idea does is tells every like minded player as myself they must be a killer and if they want to play the type of gameplay they actually like then they have to invest more of everything to do it compared to every other class. if that had been the case for me i would never have played dust.
also your highlighting stuff like spam. that is not a problem with the player. that is a problem with the suits/equipment and other flawed mechanics. your so called fix would not fix those issues. it would just put them at a higher level which everyone who abuses those mechanics would still do.
we keep shifting the issues of the logi or hiding them behind buffs/nerfs to everything else without fixing the actual issues. you cannot fix the logi by creating more sp sinks because at some point everyone will surpass those sp limitations and then the sink is pointless. bonuses to equipment only buffs the equipment not the logi, ehp/cpu changes only feeds the slayers.
there are no simple fixes to the logi and certainly sp sinks will only be seen as a punishment to logis. we can only fix logis by doing a drastic overhaul and taking them in a different direction. otherwise we will just end up going in circles again as with every other change
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1605
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Posted - 2014.08.30 19:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
spam is the fault of the items and mechanics in place for the use of those items. when the suit allows you to carry 4 different versions of the same piece of equipment and then the suit is bonuses only to that equipment then this encourages spam. if a player could not spam as in the case of repair tools or scanners and needles etc then spam is obsolete and we can balance on other issues. as long as a player is allowed to drop 9+ pieces if equipment they will do it. this is not fault of the player. its the fault of ccp for allowing it.
if a sniper rifle allows you to shoot from the redline you are going to do it, if a repair tool allows you to repair 2 people your going to do it, if extra slots and loads of cpu/pg allow you to outfit any other suit in the game then you are going to do it as is the case of slayer logis. the problem isn't the player because they are using the tools they are supplied with the emphasis of do whatever you want without limitations. this is the same with droppable equipment. ccp allows us to spam so we spam. that is what is boils down to.
the mechanics is at fault because if we couldn't do it then it wouldn't be a problem.
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1609
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Posted - 2014.08.30 20:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:I'm holding individuals responsible for their actions, you're applying culpability as responsibility to CCP.
I'm able to drive over a child crossing the street in a crosswalk in my truck by virtue of it having been manufactured with a relatively higher frame height. When I do, is my fault for not looking/not caring or is it Fords fault for making a vehicle capable of running someone over?
Sections of the map that are glitchable, which people exploit, is their exploitation of that their fault for knowing and exploiting its glitchable aspect or is it CCPs fault for their players exploiting said glitchable aspect?
Our suit bonuses, agreed, can be exploited to contribute to spamming. Which is all the more reason to ensure that those people who have access to the bonuses don't have the access solely to exploit those bonuses! A significantly higher barrier to class entry is an extremely good method of screening these, since the SP involved WON'T be immediately recouped by the WP generated exploiting the fit for a possibly significant period of time.
if that crossing was a gated level crossing then the mechanic is in place to prevent you from exploiting your car's ability to run over people or in that case run into a train regardless of your personal input into your car. the same could be applied to equipment spam. if ccp prevented it then it won't happen. if a big heavy steel gate is in the way of you running that crossing then you are not running that crossing whether you want to or not.
your comparing dropping equipment which is an intended mechanic with glitches and exploits which are not intended mechanics. the intended mechanic is there which allows spam and has been since the beginning of dust. if it was not intended it would be gone but just because its intended doesnt mean its a good mechanic. its a mechanic to be used. you cannot blame anyone for using intended mechanics right or wrong.
creating a work around for broken skills and mechanics which make spamming better is not a fix. fixing the broken skills and mechanics causing the issues is the fix.
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1609
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Posted - 2014.08.30 20:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:I'm holding individuals responsible for their actions, you're applying culpability as responsibility to CCP.
I'm able to drive over a child crossing the street in a crosswalk in my truck by virtue of it having been manufactured with a relatively higher frame height. When I do, is my fault for not looking/not caring or is it Fords fault for making a vehicle capable of running someone over?
Sections of the map that are glitchable, which people exploit, is their exploitation of that their fault for knowing and exploiting its glitchable aspect or is it CCPs fault for their players exploiting said glitchable aspect?
Our suit bonuses, agreed, can be exploited to contribute to spamming. Which is all the more reason to ensure that those people who have access to the bonuses don't have the access solely to exploit those bonuses! A significantly higher barrier to class entry is an extremely good method of screening these, since the SP involved WON'T be immediately recouped by the WP generated exploiting the fit for a possibly significant period of time. if that crossing was a gated level crossing then the mechanic is in place to prevent you from exploiting your car's ability to run over people or in that case run into a train regardless of your personal input into your car. the same could be applied to equipment spam. if ccp prevented it then it won't happen. if a big heavy steel gate is in the way of you running that crossing then you are not running that crossing whether you want to or not. your comparing dropping equipment which is an intended mechanic with glitches and exploits which are not intended mechanics. the intended mechanic is there which allows spam and has been since the beginning of dust. if it was not intended it would be gone but just because its intended doesnt mean its a good mechanic. its a mechanic to be used. you cannot blame anyone for using intended mechanics right or wrong. creating a work around for broken skills and mechanics which make spamming better is not a fix. fixing the broken skills and mechanics causing the issues is the fix. A high SP entry is a great big steel gate across every abusers abilty to exploit the mechanic. If we agree that the mechanic isn't broken, and is actually the intended use BUT that having too much spam is a problem then we need to limit the number of people able to use the mechanic. Abusers don't want to work and earn, they want maximize the reults of their minimal efforts despite any adverse effect on the overall game around them. Any effort to limit the "cheap and easy" mindset from the class is a worthwhile one and with the tools available to use, raising the SP cost of entry, therby minimalizing the entry rewards for a period, will help deter the abusive mindset from a class that when abused affects its surroundings extensively.
no the sp requirement is a small latch on the gate not the gate itself, that when you are big enough to reach it you can just open the gate and never be bothered by it again. what you want is a plaster to put over the problem instead of a real fix
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1609
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Posted - 2014.08.30 21:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Better a gate with a latch than no gate whatsoever. Regardless of any limit you put on equipment, whether its carrying limits, number active limits or even individual expiration timers, the abusive will look to find ways to manipulate and the abuse the circumstances. So, instead of changing flipping individual equipment behaviours around a high SP requirement at the very least will dissuade the noobabusers and require that proabusers have to WAIT until they're willing to pay before having access to the class. Does this stop abuse cold, forever? Of course not. Will the abusers just find something else to abuse to generate the SP to earn access? YES. They will not be able to use the Logistics class as readily to be abusive with! Which IS the point! I helps to make and keep the class occupied with those serious about the purpose of the class as opposed to the exploitation of it!
Also, as an aside, I appreciate your avoidance regarding the responsibility element of this equation that I tried to exemplify with my truck running over a kid analogy. Don't think I missed that, I can run with your gate/no gate/gate with a latch red herring attempt just fine.
i think you are missing my point. your idea just slows people down getting to a point where they can abuse the, what we think are broken mechanics. once there your fix is void. it does nothing. fixing the broken mechanics instead completely negates the issue of severe spam from anyone.
you are trying to creating something to make it harder to abuse something like spamming when the simple thing is just to fix the issue of spamming itself at its source.
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1613
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Posted - 2014.08.31 16:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
still missing the point. the problem is not with the player abusing the item the problem is that the item can be abused. the fact ccp allowed players to abuse it is the problem not the players using the items for maximum efficiency. the simple fact is ccp allows us to drop all that equipment end of story.
"IF A PLAYER CAN DO IT A PLAYER WILL DO IT"
this is the biggest problem logistics has had from the start. the fact they can do anything with virtually anything in the game which makes balancing them with everything else difficult and results in weak logistics using things like spam as an efficient way to use the role. the fact is logistics suits are the least efficient suits in the game due to their high costs and weak stats. raising the sp bar is not going to stop anyone going into the role and once there its not going to stop them spamming.
your idea is just trying to apply a plaster over a gaping wound and saying it will be ok. the fact it will just delay players for a short time and then they will resume the spam. stopping noobs doing it is besides the point. its mostly the veterans who do the spamming anyway. all the sp sink will do is punish those who actually play the role as intended.
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1616
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Posted - 2014.08.31 22:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
another option is give logis a more broader bonus to all equipment with a racial twist.
like a 5% bonus per level to a specific feature to each individual piece of equipment and then an extra 5% bonus per level to their racial specific item. gve gives logis a bonus to all equipment not just a specific single piece they may or may not even use on their prefered suit.
also give them a tanking based bonus based on how many pieces of equipment they fit and what meta level it is. fitting 4 pieces of proto equipment would drastically reduce your fitting potential hence why a lot of players use low end equipment and high amounts of tanking modules. this would encourage the use of better equipment over better tanking modules
(just an example)
suit bonus: +0.5B/1A/1.5P % bonus to arm and shield ehp per level for each piece of equipment fit
role bonus per level
5% bonus to repair tool range and repair amount (10% mini)
5% bonus to needle repair amount
5% bonus to uplink spawn count and speed (10% amarr)
5% bonus to active scanner range and arc (10% gal)
5% bonus to RE and proxi range and damage
5% bonus to nanohive nanite count and supply range (10% caldari)
just a basic example to show what i mean by a broader bonus to equipment with survival based on actually carrying equipment.
what this means for a logi is being better with all equipment than any other class with a specialisation in a single piece and while doing their role they benefit by extra ehp rather than dropping all equipment then changing to a cheap version with more ehp/dps.
obviously the numbers are all for show but something like this with the right base stats could boost the logis role without rendering them weak in other ways to ofset the balance like we have seen time and time before
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1616
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Posted - 2014.08.31 23:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:5% bonus to needle repair amount Would this make anyone I revived invincible for a minute if I use the State Kaalakiota Injector? 
just example numbers as i said a few times
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1638
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Posted - 2014.09.30 18:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
maybe ccp should consider a twist on other games resupply and repair mechanics which do work and do not suffer the same problems as what dust equipment does but with a dust twist.
take hives. why can't it be a simple throw a box of ammo down or med pack or in dusts case a small hive which quickly depletes. for the logi this could mean carrying an endless supply of hives which restock over time completely ruling out spam and replacing strategic placement of equipment which cannot move with the flow of battle with more effective fast clearing and purposeful deployments which can.
the alternative is make them an active piece of equipment which can go with the logi and restock players within a radius.
currently there is only 2 piece of equipment that require actual contact with another player and they are the repair tool and the needle. everything else doesn't require any contact with anyone. they can be used from anywhere at any time. for a logi that is supposed to be supporting the squad or team to have to leave all its equipment behind every time you move is wrong. hives and uplinks are not situational equipment. they are the life blood of any fight. without either the fight is lost.
a simple thing like this would remove all spam from the game aside from uplinks. allow logis to essentially take all their equipment with them and use it in a more directed way rather than a throw it down and then see who needs it.
this, needle, repair tool,scanner and the logibro never needs to leave his squad mates except to respawn.
with carefully set timers and ammo counts per deployment and limits on how many deployed and how many can be used at one time this could increase the overall effectiveness of logis and bring more purpose to their role.
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1640
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Posted - 2014.09.30 18:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:maybe ccp should consider a twist on other games resupply and repair mechanics which do work and do not suffer the same problems as what dust equipment does but with a dust twist.
take hives. why can't it be a simple throw a box of ammo down or med pack or in dusts case a small hive which quickly depletes. for the logi this could mean carrying an endless supply of hives which restock over time completely ruling out spam and replacing strategic placement of equipment which cannot move with the flow of battle with more effective fast clearing and purposeful deployments which can.
the alternative is make them an active piece of equipment which can go with the logi and restock players within a radius.
currently there is only 2 piece of equipment that require actual contact with another player and they are the repair tool and the needle. everything else doesn't require any contact with anyone. they can be used from anywhere at any time. for a logi that is supposed to be supporting the squad or team to have to leave all its equipment behind every time you move is wrong. hives and uplinks are not situational equipment. they are the life blood of any fight. without either the fight is lost.
a simple thing like this would remove all spam from the game aside from uplinks. allow logis to essentially take all their equipment with them and use it in a more directed way rather than a throw it down and then see who needs it.
this, needle, repair tool,scanner and the logibro never needs to leave his squad mates except to respawn.
with carefully set timers and ammo counts per deployment and limits on how many deployed and how many can be used at one time this could increase the overall effectiveness of logis and bring more purpose to their role. This style of game play is what the spreadsheet hopes to move things more towards. I acknowledge there are certain departures from the spreadsheet and what you describe however a full alteration of function as opposed to a change in numeric stats as listed in the sheets proposal, will come with a much higher dev hour cost and I am not confident it can be done without a UI update. While hives reimagined as an active module with a cooldown certainly have virtues worth discussing I think that is more of a Legion change then a Dust one tech wise. How do you think the current proposal holds up to your designs on the subject, even if it faces some obvious constraints?
i didn't notice the spreadsheet. just looked it over. equipment seems ok but the cost reduction on the repair tool isn't enough in my opinion. its the single most expensive piece of equipment a logi can carry yet using it leaves you open do death. i think 40% off or bringing the cost in line with other active equipment would mean more players using the best over the worst to keep costs down
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