For those who aren't going to go looking, the method John is talking about/advocating can be read here please feel free to pipe up if you are more in support of this method than than the lessor version which was proposed in my question above.

Cheers,
Cross

Hate to say this, but HAV guns need a bit more juice.

I'm against the removal of the rail splash because tanks DO need an anti-infantry method not dependent upon secondary turrets. The idea that HAVs should not be effective killing infantry IS asinine in my opinion. I know many disagree but bluntly the tank owner needs a better shot at defending against people like me. They need to be able to put supporting fire on an objective to suppress and kill infantry in a push.

I think we have achieved overnerfing the offensive capacities of HAVs at this point. I would like to be challenged by them when I kill them.

HAVs ARE support vehicles. They cannot support if they are impotent against infantry and only of use against LAVs and HAVs. yes people get mad when tanks start gunning them down. This is why AV weapons were created.

The idea that an HAV owner should be wholly dependent upon SOMEONE ELSE to protect them was a bad decision IMHO. Should they be vulnerabe to infantry AV? they always were once the 1.7 insanity went away.

As an AV gunner I have no sympathy to most infantry who will not swap fits to a tank cracker fit and then ***** that the tanks kill them too easy.

Unless a tank is bricktanked, I have no real difficulty killing them. There should be a 50/50 chance of a tank busting my chops when run by a driver who is as good at driving as I am at AV. The survival rate just dropped sharply.

I am an AV gunner, I have zero points dropped into HAVs.

HAVs should not have their infantry killing capabilities taken away when Infantry still have access to AV weapons. expecting tanks to go play private party World of Tanks while infantry farm them is just as bad as tanks farming infantry with impunity.

thank you.

I have a couple specific questions I would like a re-focus on.

1. Current status of fittings resources (CPU/PG) per race from each player who runs them.
In other words where do you see shortfalls and why? Does any aspect seem overly generous and where/why?
Please make sure you are responding with regards to suits you can field yourself and bonus points if you include specific fittings and/or mods in your descriptions.

2. Presuming the notion of a secondary (weaker) equipment bonus were being added to the frames, what would you advocate those secondary bonuses be - please list by race and include the reasoning behind your selection - and would such a method, in your view, require the alteration or substitution of any current/primary bonus (if yes which ones, how, and what is the rational behind that).

Thanks,
Cross

I have a couple specific questions I would like a re-focus on.

1. Current status of fittings resources (CPU/PG) per race from each player who runs them.
In other words where do you see shortfalls and why? Does any aspect seem overly generous and where/why?
Please make sure you are responding with regards to suits you can field yourself and bonus points if you include specific fittings and/or mods in your descriptions.

2. Presuming the notion of a secondary (weaker) equipment bonus were being added to the frames, what would you advocate those secondary bonuses be - please list by race and include the reasoning behind your selection - and would such a method, in your view, require the alteration or substitution of any current/primary bonus (if yes which ones, how, and what is the rational behind that).

Thanks,
Cross

This may be a disastrous idea but I wouldn't even be opposed to some sort of combat penalty on the suit so it could have the fitting and equip/module bonuses it needs without enabling the 'slayer' build to overlap assaults. Even something like a penalty to light weapon fitting to go along with the equipment bonus might ensure that we could fit proto modules and equipment with great bonuses but suffer on the level of a cloak to try and fit a weapon beyond adv.

IMO Force logi suits to be true LogiBro, the SP investment is already there. Other suits have equip utility slots without being a dedicated support role for those who just want the odd toy.

We are actually already combat penalized. Unlike every other combat suit we receive no weapon performance or fitting bonuses. That, coupled with our embarrassingly low base stat values, makes us already very direct combat ineffective versus the other combat classes. Further penalizing our already sparse self-defense abilities would be a very bad idea IMO.




EDIT: reread the OP. I agree, it would absolutely be disastrous.

The easy way to make a "combat" penalty is to simply NOT improve the absolute fitting stats of each suit (with the exception of the Amarr PG and Caldari CPU, as they are not proportionately allocated; an adjustment does need to be made there). Instead, keep the PG/CPU the same and just double the bonus to fitting equipment.

That way you are enabled to use better quality equipment, or, if you already do, additional CPU/PG will be freed up to "un-gimp" the suit. At the same time, you avoid the issues of the past where the suit was too flexible and could be fitted quite easily for offense.

How much need do you feel there is for a buff to base stats, movement speed, or the return of the native regen? The fitting bonus as you describe it makes perfect sense and I think most people are in favor of the PG/CPU adjustment, I suppose I'm just concerned about the suit becoming too appealing if changes beyond that are made (as nice as they'd be).

There seems to be some general grumbling about our base stat values and I'll never turn down more survivability, but I think the issue is how to buff logi where they need it in terms of fitting ability and tank without making a tanked damage mod'd logi a better option than the assault. If we're going to get any kind of 'improvement' beyond more equipment tweaks I can imagine them needing to gimp possible damage projection to keep assault viable in the same way we can't become more versatile commandos.

I completely agree that our self-defense could use some work in terms of survivability if perhaps not in offensive power. I don't really experience that much myself as I'm Amarr with a maxed pistol that has served me quite well, but I can imagine life without it. There's probably a good reason I see maybe one or two other yellow suits a day across all my games.

Cross' OP specifically called out ALL support roles.

Not just logis.

Therefore HAVs are relevant to topic. Just because ya want it to be only about the logistics suit does not make it so.

Personally (and I haven't seen this anywhere else yet) I'd like to be able to turn slightly faster. Mind you, when someone comes up behind me and I start getting shot in the back, I agree that I deserve to die before I can turn around and defend myself as that's the importance of situational awareness and is the playstyle of some builds. That being said, blueberries sometimes don't move in a cohesive direction (imagine that) and I'll end up getting caught alone as I try to catch up to wherever the new group of them happens to be forming up, and maybe this is worse because I'm Amarr as I don't know if their slower speed translates to slower turning, but sometimes I'll turn a corner and see something which causes me to (HMG, Tank, red sh*tstorm etc) and I feel like a truck that has to do a 3-point turn to start sprinting back the direction I came as the rounds start to hit the walls around me to cries of "AMG SHOOT THE YELLOW". Generally I try to disengage rather than hold my own with my trusty pistol and I often feel that being able to change directions even only slightly faster would be a large Quality of Life improvement for me, but again that might just be my suit/playstyle and not a good general suggestion.

Amarr suit is a frikin' slug. I use one regularly and I hate every minute in it. Had I known it was that slow I never would have specced into it. And having the Min bonus for reptool range isn't going to save it.

It kind of says in the discriptions that the Amarr are the slowest. Btw with your number of low slots you can make it fast rather easily.

I do agree with you though that logi's are too slow. Even my Cal that is supposed to be medium fast is a joke compared to its Assault brother

THIS IDEA IS FOR PROJECT LEGION ONLY

Logistics should be heavy frames, similar to commandos.

It's the best way to give them the EHP they need to do their role without the threat of them being slayers.

Currently, med frames give far too little native EHP for the logistics to fulfill its role. The remedy: give them a bunch of slots to fit their defenses in. However, this, coupled with their decent speed stats and fitting capabilities (needed for equipment), allows them to cross fit into capable slayers, comparable to Assault suits (often better, though much less since the ehp buff to assaults).

Changing to heavy frames solves most, if not all these issues:

High native tank allows for a reduction of high and low slots without compromising ehp, while also limiting out of role variations.

The reduction in speed really cuts into their combat effectiveness. It also has the added benefit of the threat of advancing troops "stretching their support" by them running out of support range.

(This was inspired by Eve's Dreadnought and Carrier class capital ships. One being the highly defensive, massive damage-dealing behemoth (though slow and not agile), the other the highly defensive logistics apogee (though also slow and requiring offensive support).

I really like this idea. But I wouldn't really suggest replacing the medium framed logis al together. I would also suggest into really limiting it to where it is only used as "Heavy Logistic Suits", or it will replace the commandos.

THIS IDEA IS FOR PROJECT LEGION ONLY

Logistics should be heavy frames, similar to commandos.

It's the best way to give them the EHP they need to do their role without the threat of them being slayers.

Currently, med frames give far too little native EHP for the logistics to fulfill its role. The remedy: give them a bunch of slots to fit their defenses in. However, this, coupled with their decent speed stats and fitting capabilities (needed for equipment), allows them to cross fit into capable slayers, comparable to Assault suits (often better, though much less since the ehp buff to assaults).

Changing to heavy frames solves most, if not all these issues:

High native tank allows for a reduction of high and low slots without compromising ehp, while also limiting out of role variations.

The reduction in speed really cuts into their combat effectiveness. It also has the added benefit of the threat of advancing troops "stretching their support" by them running out of support range.

(This was inspired by Eve's Dreadnought and Carrier class capital ships. One being the highly defensive, massive damage-dealing behemoth (though slow and not agile), the other the highly defensive logistics apogee (though also slow and requiring offensive support).

WP for repping vehicles would be nice, maybe +25 for every 250 armor repaired? obviously would cap your triage WP as would repping infantry

Repairing dropsuits = triage

Repairing anything else = mechanic points

I could be wrong, but weren't WP for vehicle/installation repair removed due to farming? If so, they won't be back any time soon.

No Thank You, I'll keep my medium frame with some buffing in the base stats over the idea that field supply is better served by me moving about at <4m/s but a million eHP. I can taste the tears of the "Heavy w/a Light Weapon" qq'ers already.

Just add a cap exactly like triage or make it 25 points per X amount of armour repaired.

Done.