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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13792
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Couple dozen threads an hour is making it hard for me to keep up with so here's where I am garnering so far.
*Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
I will agree these need to be fixed.
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
*Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux
I agree but a full disruption punishes pure blind luck of stray shots that can happen as well. I rather see a few tweaks instead such as cloak timer draining because of damage and longer lasting cloak scattering because of damage.
*Cloak Noise
Maybe for self sound its a bit too loud and out of balance but as a third person its balanced.
*Decloak to weapon swap speed
Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time.
*Cloak timer at prototype
80 seconds is an eternity waiting for it to recharge. I think a second variant of cloaks is warranted, something with 30 second timer across all tiers and faster cooldown efficiency.
*Cloaked hacking
I see no problems currently with this.
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus.
=Anything else did I miss?=
Will update points and discussion if new things are brought to my attention. I know with the 1.8 patch then 1.8 hotfix this week and the follow up tonight and possibly more on the way lots of crap flying around and my time is split between paying attention to you guys and working with fanfest build.
OT posts will not be tolerated. I know vehicle rebalancing just hit but I feel that there hasn't been enough time to adapt around it yet to see if more follow ups are needed or if they went overboard.
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
12662
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Glitches obviously need to be fixed, but glitches are glitches.
Moving while cloaked is easy to see.
Flux grenades should fully drain a cloaks recharge meter thing. I haven't used them personally, so I can't really comment on the rest. You shouldn't be decloaked from damage.
Brick tanking is a problem that CCP has been creating for a while, and they only further encouraged it with the 1.8 TTK changes.
"It seems you've mistaken me for someone who cares"
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
2230
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Glitches obviously need to be fixed, but glitches are glitches.
Moving while cloaked is easy to see.
Flux grenades should fully drain a cloaks recharge meter thing. I haven't used them personally, so I can't really comment on the rest. You shouldn't be decloaked from damage.
Brick tanking is a problem that CCP has been creating for a while, and they only further encouraged it with the 1.8 TTK changes.
The damage and flux I like, the glitches needs to be fixed but this is just common sense.
As for brick tanking that is not a scout problem, this is a general problem due to bad module distribution and nothing better than HP modules.
For the Federation!
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13794
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Glitches obviously need to be fixed, but glitches are glitches.
Moving while cloaked is easy to see.
Flux grenades should fully drain a cloaks recharge meter thing. I haven't used them personally, so I can't really comment on the rest. You shouldn't be decloaked from damage.
Brick tanking is a problem that CCP has been creating for a while, and they only further encouraged it with the 1.8 TTK changes. The damage and flux I like, the glitches needs to be fixed but this is just common sense. As for brick tanking that is not a scout problem, this is a general problem due to bad module distribution and nothing better than HP modules.
True but HP is a hard weight, while sensors are a soft weight in a shooter, you cannot fully measure how useful a sensor module is vs HP. Does seeing through walls equal 100 hp? 50 damage? 0.5 seconds off shield recharge? that value of sensors vary from player to player. Then of course there is the other module and stats alterations. Simply bringing it to compete with HP from majority view may make some players play styles excessively out of reach due to the enabling caused by the module changes. This ain't eve. Where I can plug in a bunch of numbers and get the outcome of most scenarios.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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LEHON Xeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
356
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Don't know if anyone else is having the problem, but when I use a cloak I cannot do anything while in it except move. I can't swap to a weapon or even equipment without instantly uncloaking. Even when swapping to a gun, it seems I can get a round or two off before I become fully visible, but if I use anything else like an RE it deactivates. I can't even just hold the RE and it'll turn off.
Always the last person to leave. Always the one cleaning up people's messes.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13794
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
LEHON Xeon wrote:Don't know if anyone else is having the problem, but when I use a cloak I cannot do anything while in it except move. I can't swap to a weapon or even equipment without instantly uncloaking. Even when swapping to a gun, it seems I can get a round or two off before I become fully visible, but if I use anything else like an RE it deactivates. I can't even just hold the RE and it'll turn off.
LOL 
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Master Smurf
Nos Nothi
289
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Armor plates should be PG intensive
CCP made plates cheap and gave the lows slot suits alot of PG
I think weapon fire should cause a decloak animation and then it should recloak
In agreement on most other stuff though sometimes it can be difficult to pick up the shimmer - maybe its person's displays
"Shine bright like a diamond"
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Sinboto Simmons
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
5369
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'm already having problems fitting the cloak. 
*sigh* the joys of being minmatar.
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 5
STB-Infantry (Demolition)
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
1288
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think decloaking on taking damage with some recloaking delay penalty (maybe 5 secs) is a reasonable nerf. Hacking while cloaked also seems excessive. But I think they seem reasonably balanced otherwise. If people want to burn ammo spraying randomly to try to decloak people, I don't think that would be game breaking (it might even expand the LR's niche a bit).
I think the dampening reduction from the cloak might be decreased. This would force scouts to invest more in damps, and stack less armor, or risk being easier to scan. That would be balanced IMO.
Looking to the future, it would be nice if you could deploy a piece of equipment that would decloak anything that comes within a 15m radius (or so) until destroyed. There are plenty of more important priorities than this though.
Best PvE idea ever!
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
2232
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Glitches obviously need to be fixed, but glitches are glitches.
Moving while cloaked is easy to see.
Flux grenades should fully drain a cloaks recharge meter thing. I haven't used them personally, so I can't really comment on the rest. You shouldn't be decloaked from damage.
Brick tanking is a problem that CCP has been creating for a while, and they only further encouraged it with the 1.8 TTK changes. The damage and flux I like, the glitches needs to be fixed but this is just common sense. As for brick tanking that is not a scout problem, this is a general problem due to bad module distribution and nothing better than HP modules. True but HP is a hard weight, while sensors are a soft weight in a shooter, you cannot fully measure how useful a sensor module is vs HP. Does seeing through walls equal 100 hp? 50 damage? 0.5 seconds off shield recharge? that value of sensors vary from player to player. Then of course there is the other module and stats alterations. Simply bringing it to compete with HP from majority view may make some players play styles excessively out of reach due to the enabling caused by the module changes. This ain't eve. Where I can plug in a bunch of numbers and get the outcome of most scenarios.
I don't mean it in such a general way, but for example in EVE what generally goes in your lows as an armor tanker? Tackle, and EWAR you close quickly to lay down tons of damage. This outweighs the value of the higher HP from shields (discounting the large sig radius). As a shield tanker what do you use? You boost your repair or you boost your damage you try to kill the enemy to keep that distance.
In Dust there is a backwards balance, from EVE. There are opportunities and rewards going to the wrong side, to a side that just doesn't need them. For example look at kinetic catalyzers, why would a shield tanked suit want to rush into battle? Look at damage modifiers, why would you give the highest HP suit the best damage also?
The value of a module does vary from player to player, but the mindset of that player (assuming he knows the role of his suit) is counter acted by the modules being on the wrong side.
For the Federation!
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
450
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
Just accessed a C-1 scout and I'm not seeing my 15% for cloaks that was mentioned .
Wasn't it suppose to be 15% decrease in fitting cost ?
If I'm wrong please correct me and did you know that the C-1 and series heavy has the same stats ?
Leave all negative comments about tanks in the bin marked " TRASH " and we'll get to it as soon as possible . Thank You
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13797
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Glitches obviously need to be fixed, but glitches are glitches.
Moving while cloaked is easy to see.
Flux grenades should fully drain a cloaks recharge meter thing. I haven't used them personally, so I can't really comment on the rest. You shouldn't be decloaked from damage.
Brick tanking is a problem that CCP has been creating for a while, and they only further encouraged it with the 1.8 TTK changes. The damage and flux I like, the glitches needs to be fixed but this is just common sense. As for brick tanking that is not a scout problem, this is a general problem due to bad module distribution and nothing better than HP modules. True but HP is a hard weight, while sensors are a soft weight in a shooter, you cannot fully measure how useful a sensor module is vs HP. Does seeing through walls equal 100 hp? 50 damage? 0.5 seconds off shield recharge? that value of sensors vary from player to player. Then of course there is the other module and stats alterations. Simply bringing it to compete with HP from majority view may make some players play styles excessively out of reach due to the enabling caused by the module changes. This ain't eve. Where I can plug in a bunch of numbers and get the outcome of most scenarios. I don't mean it in such a general way, but for example in EVE what generally goes in your lows as an armor tanker? Tackle, and EWAR you close quickly to lay down tons of damage. This outweighs the value of the higher HP from shields (discounting the large sig radius). As a shield tanker what do you use? You boost your repair or you boost your damage you try to kill the enemy to keep that distance. In Dust there is a backwards balance, from EVE. There are opportunities and rewards going to the wrong side, to a side that just doesn't need them. For example look at kinetic catalyzers, why would a shield tanked suit want to rush into battle? Look at damage modifiers, why would you give the highest HP suit the best damage also? The value of a module does vary from player to player, but the mindset of that player (assuming he knows the role of his suit) is counter acted by the modules being on the wrong side.
And this is the gritty part of design is where things become a mess, we could introduce new modules that help either side of the rack out but they too need to be balanced against existing modules. I know its a long discussed demand of the community to have modules in both highs and lows or having modules move from high to lows but there are considerations why they're made into some ways they are also not many do ask the what if question enough.
What if kinkats where high slots? Speed tanked Gallente with similar amounts of armor hp they enjoy now is almost just as scary of a thought as a cal scout with tri damage mods shotty cloak and shields to boot.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Cyrius Li-Moody
0uter.Heaven
4139
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
Personally I think they did a fair job of balancing the cloak. Most tears come from oversaturation of the role due to it being new equipment. Anything seems ridiculous in high volumes. This is a new toy and everyone wants to play with it. I want to be very very sure nothing is done in classic CCP fashion as a ridiculous nerf due to the tears of the loud sections of our playerbase.
I agree that there should be different variants for different jobs and playstyles. The weapon switch in my opinion is about perfect. It's not too short and not too long. I think most people have problems with the cloaks and shotguns. For any other weapon that requires you to actually aim a little bit the decloak time is perfect.
Also we must consider that currently even the minmatar has a lot of trouble in the fitting department. An increase in cloak cost will make this suit which already has extremely HP even weaker and harder to fit.
Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13797
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Personally I think they did a fair job of balancing the cloak. Most tears come from oversaturation of the role due to it being new equipment. Anything seems ridiculous in high volumes. This is a new toy and everyone wants to play with it. I want to be very very sure nothing is done in classic CCP fashion as a ridiculous nerf due to the tears of the loud sections of our playerbase.
I agree that there should be different variants for different jobs and playstyles. The weapon switch in my opinion is about perfect. It's not too short and not too long. I think most people have problems with the cloaks and shotguns. For any other weapon that requires you to actually aim a little bit the decloak time is perfect.
Also we must consider that currently even the minmatar has a lot of trouble in the fitting department. An increase in cloak cost will make this suit which already has extremely HP even weaker and harder to fit.
My question is should all scouts have similar fitting issues to the minmatar or should minmatar be brought up to the rest of the class?
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
1034
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 03:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
Decloaking from damage is bad. Decloaking from fluxes is good.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
Fixed link.
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Paran Tadec
The Hetairoi
2086
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 03:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
I have found some issues. Naturally, those without gun game will complain about any changes to cloak.
However, I have proposed a few changes that should make cloak more balanced/skill based:
1. Either fix the decloaking animation to be faster, or add a delay on offensive capabilities other than hacking. ie, you have to fully decloak to fire. This is striaght from Eve. Allow the time to fire to decrease per level.
2. Lower the stupidly high uptime of the cloak and add a mandatory downtime. Such that, you can just one shot someone from behind and cloak, repeat, and take on multiple people. It'll force scout to chose targets smarter. Again, depending on SP investment, this can be lowered per level.
3. Heavily increase the fitting reqs for cloaks and give scouts a bonus that only allows them to fit them. Cloaks in Dust are essentially covert ops cloaks from Eve. Other cloaks in eve dont allow you to move very fast at all.
4. Decloak mandatory on flux. Cloak field shimmer on taking damage from other weapons.
Do this and cloak will still be powerful and fun.
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
1035
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 03:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
I think the minmatar needs to trade some CPU for PG and vice versa for the CalScout. Caldari are supposed to have the most CPU and the least PG.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
Fixed link.
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Paran Tadec
The Hetairoi
2087
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 03:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:I'm already having problems fitting the cloak. *sigh* the joys of being minmatar.
Min has needed more pg since...
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13809
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Paran Tadec wrote:I have found some issues. Naturally, those without gun game will complain about any changes to cloak.
However, I have proposed a few changes that should make cloak more balanced/skill based:
1. Either fix the decloaking animation to be faster, or add a delay on offensive capabilities other than hacking. ie, you have to fully decloak to fire. This is striaght from Eve. Allow the time to fire to decrease per level.
2. Lower the stupidly high uptime of the cloak and add a mandatory downtime. Such that, you can just one shot someone from behind and cloak, repeat, and take on multiple people. It'll force scout to chose targets smarter. Again, depending on SP investment, this can be lowered per level.
3. Heavily increase the fitting reqs for cloaks and give scouts a bonus that only allows them to fit them. Cloaks in Dust are essentially covert ops cloaks from Eve. Other cloaks in eve dont allow you to move very fast at all.
4. Decloak mandatory on flux. Cloak field shimmer on taking damage from other weapons.
Do this and cloak will still be powerful and fun.
I could work with these.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Rusty Shallows
1280
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:snip
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus.
snip
The innate fitting skill reduction looks really good. It could mess with fitting mobility mods on my Minja but I can live with that. I'm not sure if it is possible but splitting the bonus into two could work. Keep the current saved value for CPU, slash x percent from the saved PG. It could work so long as neither extenders or plates get pg reductions in the future.
If there is a goal to restrict cloaks from other classes then increase the all cloak fitting costs. If it isn't then don't do it. The current CPU/PG feel right when I look at them with a Medium Frame.
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:snip
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet.
Thanks for the heads-up. I don't even run Assaults and it's a concern.
Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting.
Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
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Cyrius Li-Moody
0uter.Heaven
4142
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Personally I think they did a fair job of balancing the cloak. Most tears come from oversaturation of the role due to it being new equipment. Anything seems ridiculous in high volumes. This is a new toy and everyone wants to play with it. I want to be very very sure nothing is done in classic CCP fashion as a ridiculous nerf due to the tears of the loud sections of our playerbase.
I agree that there should be different variants for different jobs and playstyles. The weapon switch in my opinion is about perfect. It's not too short and not too long. I think most people have problems with the cloaks and shotguns. For any other weapon that requires you to actually aim a little bit the decloak time is perfect.
Also we must consider that currently even the minmatar has a lot of trouble in the fitting department. An increase in cloak cost will make this suit which already has extremely HP even weaker and harder to fit. My question is should all scouts have similar fitting issues to the minmatar or should minmatar be brought up to the rest of the class?
I think most of the problem stems from plates. You can fit a caldari like an actual scout suit and come up with a good build (2 range amps, 2 shields, a precision and an adv/proto cloak. a real scout). You run out of resources but you have an actual scout build. Not a light assault build and you used your resources properly.
Plates require absolutely nothing in terms of fitting cost. As long as you have 2 to 3 PG left over you can stack an extra 200+ HP.
Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
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Paran Tadec
The Hetairoi
2087
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 03:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Paran Tadec wrote:I have found some issues. Naturally, those without gun game will complain about any changes to cloak.
However, I have proposed a few changes that should make cloak more balanced/skill based:
1. Either fix the decloaking animation to be faster, or add a delay on offensive capabilities other than hacking. ie, you have to fully decloak to fire. This is striaght from Eve. Allow the time to fire to decrease per level.
2. Lower the stupidly high uptime of the cloak and add a mandatory downtime. Such that, you can just one shot someone from behind and cloak, repeat, and take on multiple people. It'll force scout to chose targets smarter. Again, depending on SP investment, this can be lowered per level.
3. Heavily increase the fitting reqs for cloaks and give scouts a bonus that only allows them to fit them. Cloaks in Dust are essentially covert ops cloaks from Eve. Other cloaks in eve dont allow you to move very fast at all.
4. Decloak mandatory on flux. Cloak field shimmer on taking damage from other weapons.
Do this and cloak will still be powerful and fun. I could work with these.
Also, this has more EHP than my proto min commando. :'(
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13809
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:34:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Personally I think they did a fair job of balancing the cloak. Most tears come from oversaturation of the role due to it being new equipment. Anything seems ridiculous in high volumes. This is a new toy and everyone wants to play with it. I want to be very very sure nothing is done in classic CCP fashion as a ridiculous nerf due to the tears of the loud sections of our playerbase.
I agree that there should be different variants for different jobs and playstyles. The weapon switch in my opinion is about perfect. It's not too short and not too long. I think most people have problems with the cloaks and shotguns. For any other weapon that requires you to actually aim a little bit the decloak time is perfect.
Also we must consider that currently even the minmatar has a lot of trouble in the fitting department. An increase in cloak cost will make this suit which already has extremely HP even weaker and harder to fit. My question is should all scouts have similar fitting issues to the minmatar or should minmatar be brought up to the rest of the class? I think most of the problem stems from plates. You can fit a caldari like an actual scout suit and come up with a good build (2 range amps, 2 shields, a precision and an adv/proto cloak. a real scout). You run out of resources but you have an actual scout build. Not a light assault build and you used your resources properly. Plates require absolutely nothing in terms of fitting cost. As long as you have 2 to 3 PG left over you can stack an extra 200+ HP.
So the fitting on the sensor suite is too high. I'll bring that up in the next discussion see what the developers think since I do sort of agree those modules are nice to have but are very hard to fit.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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crazy space 1
GunFall Mobilization
2227
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 03:35:00 -
[24] - Quote
Flux grenades and only flux should deactivate cloaks and drain them 100%
Maybe plasma cannon as well?
Maybe you can introduce more de-cloaking weapons in the future. |
Yan Darn
Science For Death
421
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Glitches obviously need to be fixed, but glitches are glitches.
Moving while cloaked is easy to see.
Flux grenades should fully drain a cloaks recharge meter thing. I haven't used them personally, so I can't really comment on the rest. You shouldn't be decloaked from damage.
Brick tanking is a problem that CCP has been creating for a while, and they only further encouraged it with the 1.8 TTK changes. The damage and flux I like, the glitches needs to be fixed but this is just common sense. As for brick tanking that is not a scout problem, this is a general problem due to bad module distribution and nothing better than HP modules.
This. The problem of cloaks isn't just abot cloaks. It's not even about scouts. It's about a lot of other issues with the fittings meta as well.
Also, assaults need to be better at assaulting - that would help alleviate scout/cloak spam. Without the spam, QQ should be reduced.
Just please - I'm sure I'm not the only scout who was apprehensive about our role bonus being tied to one specific piece of equipment. I'd seriously prefer CCP ditched it and gave us another role bonus, rather than watch it go through a ridiculous nerf/buff cycle.
Alternatively, create more ways to counter cloaks.
The Ghost of Bravo
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Bro-metheus
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
75
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
Should be separate armor plates for every dropsuit type or it should be a % of dropsuit base Hitpoints. No way in hell should a scout suit be fitting the same plate as a heavy suit if they are then why cant they carry 0 plates and hmg?. That both makes more sense then the current system. This was suggested a long time ago but CCP never picked up on the idea.
other then that fix the glitches then re-playtest
Scanners should reveal the player on the hud IE he no longer looks cloaked or he is more visable/grayed out/ghost look.
Another prob is frendly cloaks in fraction warfare. When they are buzzing around a close in CQC firefight it is way to easy to shoot a frendly cloaked unit (they look exactly the same as a enemy cloak) and the trianger is way to far above the head. They should be greyed out or with a ghost/transparent look or something so I dont turn around with a burst hmg see a shimmer and merc a ally.
Almost forgot assault suits need a major buff. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13811
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Glitches obviously need to be fixed, but glitches are glitches.
Moving while cloaked is easy to see.
Flux grenades should fully drain a cloaks recharge meter thing. I haven't used them personally, so I can't really comment on the rest. You shouldn't be decloaked from damage.
Brick tanking is a problem that CCP has been creating for a while, and they only further encouraged it with the 1.8 TTK changes. The damage and flux I like, the glitches needs to be fixed but this is just common sense. As for brick tanking that is not a scout problem, this is a general problem due to bad module distribution and nothing better than HP modules. This. The problem of cloaks isn't just abot cloaks. It's not even about scouts. It's about a lot of other issues with the fittings meta as well. Also, assaults need to be better at assaulting - that would help alleviate scout/cloak spam. Without the spam, QQ should be reduced. Just please - I'm sure I'm not the only scout who was apprehensive about our role bonus being tied to one specific piece of equipment. I'd seriously prefer CCP ditched it and gave us another role bonus, rather than watch it go through a ridiculous nerf/buff cycle. Alternatively, create more ways to counter cloaks.
I agreed with the sentiment earlier; which is what helped killed the cloak racial scout specific bonuses early in development. (you can hate me for it)
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Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Skihids
Bullet Cluster
3182
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
Hopping into a dropship while cloaked maintains the deadened sound level the rest of the match. |
Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
1288
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 03:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
An additional point to consider is I've heard the active scanner angles are bugged (i.e. they're scanning in a more narrow arc than they should). A big part of cloaking balance is having the counters to them functioning properly. I don't want to go off topic, but perhaps considering active scanner changes might be reasonable. Nobody wants a return to the "scannerina" debacle, but there may be some changes that could encourage damp fits over stacking plates, particularly with the Gal logi.
Best PvE idea ever!
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13811
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 03:47:00 -
[30] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:An additional point to consider is I've heard the active scanner angles are bugged (i.e. they're scanning in a more narrow arc than they should). A big part of cloaking balance is having the counters to them functioning properly. I don't want to go off topic, but perhaps considering active scanner changes might be reasonable. Nobody wants a return to the "scannerina" debacle, but there may be some changes that could encourage damp fits over stacking plates, particularly with the Gal logi.
Already complained about it but will throw it on top my burn pile since its a 1.8 related thing.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
|
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
1037
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 03:52:00 -
[31] - Quote
increase cloak CPU/PG. make scout bonus 18% per level reduction. This makes scouts have the same requirements as now, with everyone else struggling further still to fit one.
18% per level equates to 90% reduction in cloak CPU/PG usage.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
Fixed link.
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Sinboto Simmons
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
5386
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 03:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Personally I think they did a fair job of balancing the cloak. Most tears come from oversaturation of the role due to it being new equipment. Anything seems ridiculous in high volumes. This is a new toy and everyone wants to play with it. I want to be very very sure nothing is done in classic CCP fashion as a ridiculous nerf due to the tears of the loud sections of our playerbase.
I agree that there should be different variants for different jobs and playstyles. The weapon switch in my opinion is about perfect. It's not too short and not too long. I think most people have problems with the cloaks and shotguns. For any other weapon that requires you to actually aim a little bit the decloak time is perfect.
Also we must consider that currently even the minmatar has a lot of trouble in the fitting department. An increase in cloak cost will make this suit which already has extremely HP even weaker and harder to fit. My question is should all scouts have similar fitting issues to the minmatar or should minmatar be brought up to the rest of the class? I think most of the problem stems from plates. You can fit a caldari like an actual scout suit and come up with a good build (2 range amps, 2 shields, a precision and an adv/proto cloak. a real scout). You run out of resources but you have an actual scout build. Not a light assault build and you used your resources properly. Plates require absolutely nothing in terms of fitting cost. As long as you have 2 to 3 PG left over you can stack an extra 200+ HP. So the fitting on the sensor suite is too high. I'll bring that up in the next discussion see what the developers think since I do sort of agree those modules are nice to have but are very hard to fit.
Honestly most of the non HP fitting cost are too high: Shield energizers/rechargers, hacking, biotics (barring perhaps the cardiac) ect ect.
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 5
STB-Infantry (Demolition)
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kiarbanor
S.e.V.e.N.
General Tso's Alliance
360
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 03:53:00 -
[33] - Quote
Paran Tadec wrote:I have found some issues. Naturally, those without gun game will complain about any changes to cloak.
However, I have proposed a few changes that should make cloak more balanced/skill based:
1. Either fix the decloaking animation to be faster, or add a delay on offensive capabilities other than hacking. ie, you have to fully decloak to fire. This is striaght from Eve. Allow the time to fire to decrease per level.
2. Lower the stupidly high uptime of the cloak and add a mandatory downtime. Such that, you can just one shot someone from behind and cloak, repeat, and take on multiple people. It'll force scout to chose targets smarter. Again, depending on SP investment, this can be lowered per level.
3. Heavily increase the fitting reqs for cloaks and give scouts a bonus that only allows them to fit them. Cloaks in Dust are essentially covert ops cloaks from Eve. Other cloaks in eve dont allow you to move very fast at all.
4. Decloak mandatory on flux. Cloak field shimmer on taking damage from other weapons.
Do this and cloak will still be powerful and fun.
I'll add that you shouldn't get a profile dampening bonus just by being cloaked. Leave that up to actual dampening mods. This will make us (scouts) rethink our low slots. |
Yan Darn
Science For Death
421
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:03:00 -
[34] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
I agreed with the sentiment earlier; which is what helped killed the cloak racial scout specific bonuses early in development. (you can hate me for it)
Don't worry - you are know as 'friend of the scouts' (or whatever) after all.
Saying that, we don't have a role bonus if we don't use it (I'm pretty sure no other role bonus is so specific).
I take it there is no chance CCP will just ditch cloaks (at least until they come up with a 'cov-ops' frame) and giving us real scout bonus? I get the impression they really want to force this shiny toy into the game one way or another.
If we had for example, reduction to electronics and Biotics mods we'd get bonuses to modules that increased our speed, stamina, stealth and perception - which are pretty scouty to me. Maybe give only the min scout a bonus cloaks if they have to stay in - since the scout QQ is really compounded by the brick tanking issue.
Would help alleviate the flow of slayers to the scout role - though they need a good home in the assault class.
Just trying to emphasise, half the perceived problems is not with the device itself, but the context it is used.
The Ghost of Bravo
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13816
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
I agreed with the sentiment earlier; which is what helped killed the cloak racial scout specific bonuses early in development. (you can hate me for it)
Don't worry - you are know as 'friend of the scouts' (or whatever) after all. Saying that, we don't have a role bonus if we don't use it (I'm pretty sure no other role bonus is so specific). I take it there is no chance CCP will just ditch cloaks (at least until they come up with a 'cov-ops' frame) and giving us real scout bonus? I get the impression they really want to force this shiny toy into the game one way or another. If we had for example, reduction to electronics and Biotics mods we'd get bonuses to modules that increased our speed, stamina, stealth and perception - which are pretty scouty to me. Maybe give only the min scout a bonus cloaks if they have to stay in - since the scout QQ is really compounded by the brick tanking issue. Would help alleviate the flow of slayers to the scout role - though they need a good home in the assault class. Just trying to emphasise, half the perceived problems is not with the device itself, but the context it is used.
I wished but too much development going on right now to get a new class in.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
Cotsy8
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
129
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:06:00 -
[36] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Couple dozen threads an hour is making it hard for me to keep up with so here's where I am garnering so far.
*Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
I will agree these need to be fixed.
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
*Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux
I agree but a full disruption punishes pure blind luck of stray shots that can happen as well. I rather see a few tweaks instead such as cloak timer draining because of damage and longer lasting cloak scattering because of damage.
As for flux, I would like to see a massive chuck eaten out of the timer with it (scaled to the flux damage maybe?)
*Cloak Noise
Maybe for self sound its a bit too loud and out of balance but as a third person its balanced.
*Decloak to weapon swap speed
Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time.
*Cloak timer at prototype
80 seconds is an eternity waiting for it to recharge. I think a second variant of cloaks is warranted, something with 30 second timer across all tiers and faster cooldown efficiency.
*Cloaked hacking
I see no problems currently with this.
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus. While we could go after the tanking modules themselves that's going to effect ALL classes and that would get more messy than needed.
=Anything else did I miss?=
Will update points and discussion if new things are brought to my attention. I know with the 1.8 patch then 1.8 hotfix this week and the follow up tonight and possibly more on the way lots of crap flying around and my time is split between paying attention to you guys and working with fanfest build.
OT posts will not be tolerated. I know vehicle rebalancing just hit but I feel that there hasn't been enough time to adapt around it yet to see if more follow ups are needed or if they went overboard.
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet.
If you can go read my posts in "you are blind" or whatever thread, which should be on the most recent page. I explain exactly why cloaks need to go. If you want a nice copy paste, I can do that as well. |
Yan Darn
Science For Death
421
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:08:00 -
[37] - Quote
kiarbanor wrote:
I'll add that you shouldn't get a profile dampening bonus just by being cloaked. Leave that up to actual dampening mods. This will make us (scouts) rethink our low slots.
This will disproportionately hurt non-gal scouts the most and of course gal-scouts are the ones most likely to 'abuse' their low slots.
The Ghost of Bravo
|
Master Smurf
Nos Nothi
291
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
Very good thread IWS with some nice insight.
Nice to see all here are in agreement for the majority of what has been discussed.
"Shine bright like a diamond"
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2676
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:13:00 -
[39] - Quote
I'm having a problem with the CPM giving his own opinions about what he agrees with, disagrees with, or what he could "work with".
CPM should relay info that the community is feeling without their own personal opinion. They are representing the community's decision. And that should be the only one being discussed with CCP, regardless of what they feel they could "work with" or not.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
|
Cotsy8
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
130
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:15:00 -
[40] - Quote
In three days there has not be a single valid argument for cloaks.
Common answers include:
1. Get your eyes checked
2. Get good
3. Eve has them
4. Scouts needed them to either be good or get "the drop" on enemies
5. I can now be good
There is no valid argument for a cloak. I can post 20 reasons why cloaks are not required, how the rewards poor gameplay, and how they are nothing but a crutch for bad scouts.
I have posted many times and have clearly demonstrated to "scout deniers" (like tank deniers) but scouts don't want their new ridiculous toy to go because it means a return to their previous struggles.. Again, not true. Scouts got a boost in 1.8 from 1.7 by adding either a hi or a low to current scout suits, adding a second equipment slot, and adding two new classes. These additions provide a great boost to scout (who did just fine in 1.7 but some scouts did need help). The bonuses provided more flexibility to roles and gameplay, as well as more flexibility and adaptability in slot layout and finally provided more varied roles for scouts to play. There was no reason, none, to include a cloak to scouts.
Cloaks are a crutch which reward poor gameplay, poor strategy, poor decisions, and lack of skill to a class which is centred around good decisions, selective engagements, and being strategic in their movement. So please, read what I have wrote in other threads, there's a lot there but the arguments are solid. |
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RemingtonBeaver
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
382
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:18:00 -
[41] - Quote
My take since running a proto minja since 1.8
I don't run other racial scouts and my minmatar is squishy. If I fail to plan my attacks, or get sloppy with my tactics then I will die. Scouts rocking cloaks should feel squishy. And yes fitting a minja is terrible compromise.
Fluxes should knock shields out and require a full recharge.
The activation of the cloak is hit and miss. Its slow and I've had issues with activating it while running. Activating it while running should be available.
The ability to re-cloak after an action is necessary. If I am planting REs on a point and the enemy is on their way I shouldn't have to wait 30 seconds before I can re-cloak. I think the timing on the cloak is perfect. I have been caught in multiple occasions where my cloak was about to be depleted and had to decloak in less than strategic places.
Seriously the timers are golden. I can see them becoming terrible very easily through adjusting them for the worse.
Cloaks are amazing. The entire playstyle is different and requires recon and planning to be good at.
Being able to fire my gun while cloaked is not a good bug. I've done it once by accident and then noticed it was repeatable. That need fixed before a QQ storm has cloaks demoted to flaylock status.
p.s.
Scanners are awful now. They need some love.
The noises assiciated with cloaks, albeit a bit buggy, are amazing.
We can pickle that.
|
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1500
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:19:00 -
[42] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Yan Darn wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
I agreed with the sentiment earlier; which is what helped killed the cloak racial scout specific bonuses early in development. (you can hate me for it)
Don't worry - you are know as 'friend of the scouts' (or whatever) after all. Saying that, we don't have a role bonus if we don't use it (I'm pretty sure no other role bonus is so specific). I take it there is no chance CCP will just ditch cloaks (at least until they come up with a 'cov-ops' frame) and giving us real scout bonus? I get the impression they really want to force this shiny toy into the game one way or another. If we had for example, reduction to electronics and Biotics mods we'd get bonuses to modules that increased our speed, stamina, stealth and perception - which are pretty scouty to me. Maybe give only the min scout a bonus cloaks if they have to stay in - since the scout QQ is really compounded by the brick tanking issue. Would help alleviate the flow of slayers to the scout role - though they need a good home in the assault class. Just trying to emphasise, half the perceived problems is not with the device itself, but the context it is used. I wished but too much development going on right now to get a new class in.
what gungame is promoted by hideing in a corner when cloaked?
before cloaks existing trying to outmanuver enemies had tactical value
now its just no risk camp a letter objectiv
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
|
kiarbanor
S.e.V.e.N.
General Tso's Alliance
361
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:19:00 -
[43] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:kiarbanor wrote:
I'll add that you shouldn't get a profile dampening bonus just by being cloaked. Leave that up to actual dampening mods. This will make us (scouts) rethink our low slots.
This will disproportionately hurt non-gal scouts the most and of course gal-scouts are the ones most likely to 'abuse' their low slots.
Being invisible to scanners is one of the biggest pluses to the gk.0 Scout, just like being able to passively scan very low profiles is one of the ck.0's pluses. Don't give the ck.0 the gk.0 plus.
I mean, does wearing a cloak increase passive scan precision by 25%? No.
So, I disagree with you. |
Cyrius Li-Moody
0uter.Heaven
4147
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
Cotsy, no one cares. You run a cloak just like everyone else. Quit your bullkitten. If you're not going to contribute constructively stay out of the thread.
Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2676
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
*Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux
I agree but a full disruption punishes pure blind luck of stray shots that can happen as well. I rather see a few tweaks instead such as cloak timer draining because of damage and longer lasting cloak scattering because of damage.
As for flux, I would like to see a massive chuck eaten out of the timer with it (scaled to the flux damage maybe?)
YOU SEE, LOOK AT THIS
Do you know how many people have died because of an accidental stray bullet? If you take damage, it shouldn't matter if it was deliberate, accidental, or coincidental. Why does it matter if it was a stray bullet? And if you mention because it reduces fps skill, remind yourself that we are talking about cloaking devices! (most cheesiest mechanic to ever grace a shooter)
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
*Decloak to weapon swap speed
Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time.
YOU CAN NOT BE SERIOUS
It isn't fast enough.....sometimes I feel like I'm playing a totally different game than some of you guys. If a shotty, cloaked scout runs up on you, he will 2 shot you before he's decloaked. I'm being dramatic....but he will definitely hit you with that first shot before he is decloaked and by then it's too late. Because he will get the second shot off and finish you.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
|
Bojo The Mighty
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
3665
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
I believe the cloak does not require the sacrifice CCP said it should. A scout with a cloak should really be forced to operate on pre 1.8 levels, where they may have to forgo the extra EQ and slot to preserve the cloak.
Right now? Fit whatever the hell you want, hell fit two because that's still completely viable and does not demand the sacrifice it nearly should.
I have no problem seeing cloaked scouts, or picking them up on my passive scan (galscout) but really my beef is that weapon switching occurs way to fast. The cloak offers visual and TACNET stealth all packaged in a piece of EQ slightly more expensive to fit than an Uplink.
The main issue with that is that you have a great defensive, offensive, and traveling asset that does not inhibit your combat abilities. Cloak needs to inhibit your combat abilities, it should not be for those with the lack of skill. The cloak needs to be more thought oriented than just "I'll activate my active dampener, run around and shotgun people". Doing the kind of monkey business that's going on now should get most cloaked scouts killed, but because there is no significant delay in switching weapons, there is not really any risk in that.
ATM, being discovered when cloaked is not a disadvantage, because in lightning speed you can have your weapon out again.
Everything else is perfectly fine. |
bamboo x
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
466
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:22:00 -
[47] - Quote
There are definitely no weaknesses to a cloak and this is a problem. I agree with you IWS 100%
B.D. Wong AKA Dr. Wu returns to Jurassic Park sequel
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13819
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:25:00 -
[48] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I'm having a problem with the CPM giving his own opinions about what he agrees with, disagrees with, or what he could "work with".
CPM should relay info that the community is feeling without their own personal opinion. They are representing the community's decision. And that should be the only one being discussed with CCP, regardless of what they feel they could "work with" or not.
CCP > What do you think of cloaks.
CPM > Spouts word for word the community
CCP > You're contradicting yourself... what is it? good or bad?
CPM > Everything With it is right and wrong according to the community.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
Sinboto Simmons
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
5390
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:28:00 -
[49] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I'm having a problem with the CPM giving his own opinions about what he agrees with, disagrees with, or what he could "work with".
CPM should relay info that the community is feeling without their own personal opinion. They are representing the community's decision. And that should be the only one being discussed with CCP, regardless of what they feel they could "work with" or not. CCP > What do you think of cloaks. CPM > Spouts word for word the community CCP > You're contradicting yourself... what is it? good or bad? CPM > Everything With it is right and wrong according to the community.
Indeed, the CPM are not machines and as such have emotions and opinions of their own.
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 5
STB-Infantry (Demolition)
|
Bojo The Mighty
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
3665
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:29:00 -
[50] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I'm having a problem with the CPM giving his own opinions about what he agrees with, disagrees with, or what he could "work with".
CPM should relay info that the community is feeling without their own personal opinion. They are representing the community's decision. And that should be the only one being discussed with CCP, regardless of what they feel they could "work with" or not. CCP > What do you think of cloaks. CPM > Spouts word for word the community CCP > You're contradicting yourself... what is it? good or bad? CPM > Everything With it is right and wrong according to the community.
Please don't take the time to make these replies I'd rather that time spent post something....constructive?
CPM is a responsibility and I get it, you take answers from the community, but it's your job to make sense of it, Detective Encyclopedia Brown. |
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13821
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:31:00 -
[51] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I'm having a problem with the CPM giving his own opinions about what he agrees with, disagrees with, or what he could "work with".
CPM should relay info that the community is feeling without their own personal opinion. They are representing the community's decision. And that should be the only one being discussed with CCP, regardless of what they feel they could "work with" or not. CCP > What do you think of cloaks. CPM > Spouts word for word the community CCP > You're contradicting yourself... what is it? good or bad? CPM > Everything With it is right and wrong according to the community. Please don't take the time to make these replies I'd rather that time spent post something....constructive? CPM is a responsibility and I get it, you take answers from the community, but it's your job to make sense of it, Detective Encyclopedia Brown.
Ah but the thing is it turns into a conversation with the developer responsible and if he asks Why and I got nothing... well you see how that could turn out. Investigating reasons and why and why not's and then finding ways to present them in a logical manner empowers me and other CPMs to tell the developer he's wrong on something he may be a bit to adamant about being right.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
Poonmunch
Sanguis Defense Syndicate
822
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:32:00 -
[52] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Couple dozen threads an hour is making it hard for me to keep up with so here's where I am garnering so far.
*Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
I will agree these need to be fixed.
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
*Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux
I agree but a full disruption punishes pure blind luck of stray shots that can happen as well. I rather see a few tweaks instead such as cloak timer draining because of damage and longer lasting cloak scattering because of damage.
As for flux, I would like to see a massive chuck eaten out of the timer with it (scaled to the flux damage maybe?)
*Cloak Noise
Maybe for self sound its a bit too loud and out of balance but as a third person its balanced.
*Decloak to weapon swap speed
Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time.
*Cloak timer at prototype
80 seconds is an eternity waiting for it to recharge. I think a second variant of cloaks is warranted, something with 30 second timer across all tiers and faster cooldown efficiency.
*Cloaked hacking
I see no problems currently with this.
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus. While we could go after the tanking modules themselves that's going to effect ALL classes and that would get more messy than needed.
=Anything else did I miss?=
Will update points and discussion if new things are brought to my attention. I know with the 1.8 patch then 1.8 hotfix this week and the follow up tonight and possibly more on the way lots of crap flying around and my time is split between paying attention to you guys and working with fanfest build.
OT posts will not be tolerated. I know vehicle rebalancing just hit but I feel that there hasn't been enough time to adapt around it yet to see if more follow ups are needed or if they went overboard.
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet.
Know what kills me?
These comments are quite well thought-out and have come right on the heels of the patch. I bet it'll take CCP over 6 months to address these problems.
EDIT: (Sorry, I was making this edit when you replied to my post) BTW, sniping cloaked guys is a pretty big problem. I used to be able to regularly snipe scouts running in the open. It is much, much harder to do when you are trying to hit a fast-moving blur 450m away.
Munch
Minmatar Patriot (Level 7)
Dedicated Sniper
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13821
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:34:00 -
[53] - Quote
Poonmunch wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Couple dozen threads an hour is making it hard for me to keep up with so here's where I am garnering so far.
*Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
I will agree these need to be fixed.
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
*Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux
I agree but a full disruption punishes pure blind luck of stray shots that can happen as well. I rather see a few tweaks instead such as cloak timer draining because of damage and longer lasting cloak scattering because of damage.
As for flux, I would like to see a massive chuck eaten out of the timer with it (scaled to the flux damage maybe?)
*Cloak Noise
Maybe for self sound its a bit too loud and out of balance but as a third person its balanced.
*Decloak to weapon swap speed
Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time.
*Cloak timer at prototype
80 seconds is an eternity waiting for it to recharge. I think a second variant of cloaks is warranted, something with 30 second timer across all tiers and faster cooldown efficiency.
*Cloaked hacking
I see no problems currently with this.
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus. While we could go after the tanking modules themselves that's going to effect ALL classes and that would get more messy than needed.
=Anything else did I miss?=
Will update points and discussion if new things are brought to my attention. I know with the 1.8 patch then 1.8 hotfix this week and the follow up tonight and possibly more on the way lots of crap flying around and my time is split between paying attention to you guys and working with fanfest build.
OT posts will not be tolerated. I know vehicle rebalancing just hit but I feel that there hasn't been enough time to adapt around it yet to see if more follow ups are needed or if they went overboard.
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet. Know what kills me? These comments are quite well thought-out and have come right on the heels of the patch. I bet it'll take CCP over 6 months to address these problems. Munch
Yup right now it is striking time while the iron is still hot.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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mollerz
3043
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Posted - 2014.03.28 04:37:00 -
[54] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Cotsy, no one cares. You run a cloak just like everyone else. Quit your bullkitten. If you're not going to contribute constructively stay out of the thread.
I know right? His QQ is getting sloppy as all ****.
You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
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Cyrius Li-Moody
0uter.Heaven
4149
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:38:00 -
[55] - Quote
Basic plate: 10 CPU 1 PG for 93.5 HP
Changing the fitting cost of a cloak doesn't change how ridiculous low that is. Nothing else has that low of a fitting cost with that much results. Nothing has that low of a fitting cost period! I really feel like I don't even need to explain this.
It costs more resources for me to increase my scan range than put on an armor plate. Unless they're playing the suit how it is intended to be played people are going to stack plates because they're so damn easy to fit and give better results than anything else.
Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
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Rusty Shallows
1281
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Posted - 2014.03.28 04:40:00 -
[56] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:snip
CCP > What do you think of cloaks.
CPM > Spouts word for word the community
CCP > You're contradicting yourself... what is it? good or bad?
CPM > Everything With it is right and wrong according to the community.
Obviously you should only pass on the critiques of people who "claim" there is community agreement. Because those one's have to be right, right? 
Edit: F-ing auto-incorrect again.
Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting.
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Bojo The Mighty
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
3666
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Posted - 2014.03.28 04:40:00 -
[57] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Cotsy, no one cares. You run a cloak just like everyone else. Quit your bullkitten. If you're not going to contribute constructively stay out of the thread. I know right? His QQ is getting sloppy as all ****.
Please disregard his QQ then, I'd rather get some minor tweaks (nerfs) on the cloak from reasonable perspectives than nerf hammer the hell out of it.
I'm quickly getting sick of exploits caused by the cloak as well but I at least try to single out a single area and not be so broad about it. I try to give feedback not rant.
That is why you and everyone should just ignore this person....Cotsy |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2678
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:40:00 -
[58] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I'm having a problem with the CPM giving his own opinions about what he agrees with, disagrees with, or what he could "work with".
CPM should relay info that the community is feeling without their own personal opinion. They are representing the community's decision. And that should be the only one being discussed with CCP, regardless of what they feel they could "work with" or not. CCP > What do you think of cloaks. CPM > Spouts word for word the community CCP > You're contradicting yourself... what is it? good or bad? CPM > Everything With it is right and wrong according to the community. Indeed, the CPM are not machines and as such have emotions and opinions of their own.
But what is being relayed to CCP then? When the CPM makes comments like, "I could work with this"? What happens if he can't work with something the community is proposing?
Makes threads like these seem to be as if they're falling on deaf ears.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13823
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Posted - 2014.03.28 04:46:00 -
[59] - Quote
What is getting relayed to ccp? ask the other cpms and the community team and based on the reports I read the community team does a fine damn job.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Paran Tadec
The Hetairoi
2091
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:47:00 -
[60] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:I believe the cloak does not require the sacrifice CCP said it should. A scout with a cloak should really be forced to operate on pre 1.8 levels, where they may have to forgo the extra EQ and slot to preserve the cloak.
Right now? Fit whatever the hell you want, hell fit two because that's still completely viable and does not demand the sacrifice it nearly should.
I have no problem seeing cloaked scouts, or picking them up on my passive scan (galscout) but really my beef is that weapon switching occurs way to fast. The cloak offers visual and TACNET stealth all packaged in a piece of EQ slightly more expensive to fit than an Uplink.
The main issue with that is that you have a great defensive, offensive, and traveling asset that does not inhibit your combat abilities. Cloak needs to inhibit your combat abilities, it should not be for those with the lack of skill. The cloak needs to be more thought oriented than just "I'll activate my active dampener, run around and shotgun people". Doing the kind of monkey business that's going on now should get most cloaked scouts killed, but because there is no significant delay in switching weapons, there is not really any risk in that.
ATM, being discovered when cloaked is not a disadvantage, because in lightning speed you can have your weapon out again.
Everything else is perfectly fine.
this. f%&^%*% this.
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
719
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Posted - 2014.03.28 04:48:00 -
[61] - Quote
To be honest this thread annoys me. My personal experience as a scout with a cloak is it's fairly fun and I personally don't have much problem killing guys wearing cloaks.
I guess my issue is where the heck were these threads asking for input for the four months of tank BS which are still more unbalanced then anything else out there. How about those heavies melting everything? Cloaks are far from OP which I truly thought they would be.
...
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Sinboto Simmons
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
5404
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Posted - 2014.03.28 04:50:00 -
[62] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I'm having a problem with the CPM giving his own opinions about what he agrees with, disagrees with, or what he could "work with".
CPM should relay info that the community is feeling without their own personal opinion. They are representing the community's decision. And that should be the only one being discussed with CCP, regardless of what they feel they could "work with" or not. CCP > What do you think of cloaks. CPM > Spouts word for word the community CCP > You're contradicting yourself... what is it? good or bad? CPM > Everything With it is right and wrong according to the community. Indeed, the CPM are not machines and as such have emotions and opinions of their own. But what is being relayed to CCP then? When the CPM makes comments like, "I could work with this"? What happens if he can't work with something the community is proposing? Makes threads like these seem to be as if they're falling on deaf ears.
that's the responsibility of the CPM, to fairly relay the community's interest without letting their personal interest consume the message, some (like Mr.Kain) have failed to do this, but from personal experience I can say IWS is fairly reliable in his duty.
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 5
STB-Infantry (Demolition)
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
1291
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Posted - 2014.03.28 04:53:00 -
[63] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I'm having a problem with the CPM giving his own opinions about what he agrees with, disagrees with, or what he could "work with".
CPM should relay info that the community is feeling without their own personal opinion. They are representing the community's decision. And that should be the only one being discussed with CCP, regardless of what they feel they could "work with" or not. CCP > What do you think of cloaks. CPM > Spouts word for word the community CCP > You're contradicting yourself... what is it? good or bad? CPM > Everything With it is right and wrong according to the community. Indeed, the CPM are not machines and as such have emotions and opinions of their own. But what is being relayed to CCP then? When the CPM makes comments like, "I could work with this"? What happens if he can't work with something the community is proposing? Makes threads like these seem to be as if they're falling on deaf ears.
I see a CPM reaching out to the community to get an intelligent conversation going about cloaking mechanics. I don't always agree with IWS, but I respect him for trying to do his job. I wish other CPMs would engage with the community in the way he does more often.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Enkidu Camuel
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
165
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Posted - 2014.03.28 04:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
I have to say that snipers should have a hard time spotting a cloaking scout, I was sniping in a match earlier and I was able to see all the scouts running around cloaked while I was sitting in the redline, something has to be done about it.
Major DUST fact.
a++ püñ Gùò_Gùò a++püñ PRAISE HELIX a++ püñ Gùò_Gùò a++püñ
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2678
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 04:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I'm having a problem with the CPM giving his own opinions about what he agrees with, disagrees with, or what he could "work with".
CPM should relay info that the community is feeling without their own personal opinion. They are representing the community's decision. And that should be the only one being discussed with CCP, regardless of what they feel they could "work with" or not. CCP > What do you think of cloaks. CPM > Spouts word for word the community CCP > You're contradicting yourself... what is it? good or bad? CPM > Everything With it is right and wrong according to the community. Indeed, the CPM are not machines and as such have emotions and opinions of their own. But what is being relayed to CCP then? When the CPM makes comments like, "I could work with this"? What happens if he can't work with something the community is proposing? Makes threads like these seem to be as if they're falling on deaf ears. that's the responsibility of the CPM, to fairly relay the community's interest without letting their personal interest consume the message, some (like Mr.Kain) have failed to do this, but from personal experience I can say IWS is fairly reliable in his duty.
well, I hope so....because I have no idea what these CPMs are telling CCP since none of us are present at any of their meetings. But when CPMs are too opinionated and are arguing their points too much, it feels as if what we say doesn't matter.
Cause tbh, when we all come on these forums and argue about balancing.....our minds are never changed despite all evidence shown and logic bombs dropped. But we continue to argue and hope that CCP reads both sides and does what makes sense. But when one of us has their ear, it makes you wonder.....but w/e
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
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mollerz
3045
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:01:00 -
[66] - Quote
Fix the glitches. also, why should we go deaf when we have one on? I think it is a cute gimmick, but it's lame and disorienting to lose a sense of hearing. Why would that even happen? Also, the shimmer should be commensurate with your speed.
Once they are fixed, let's talk about changes.
First of all, you can not instantly shoot when you decloak. There is already about a second and a half delay when you switch to a weapon. The stamina like functionality is what makes it useful It is the perfect compromise to not being about to hold a weapon or equipment. This was a smart and elegant compromise, and it works. To have a cool down would mean you couldn't multi-task, and that would be annoying. Scouts are all about multi tasking.
Second, the timers are good. basic is 30s, ADV 60s, proto 80s. Not forever, and just enough to be tactically used. Basic cloak is garbage. Proto is too expensive to fit CPU/PG wise- but you can do it with some sacrifice.
Damage shouldn't screw with it at all. Presumably it is hardened underneath your shield and armor.
I could see a flux taking down a cloak outright based on tier- basic flux kills basic cloak, adv to adv, proto to proto. A basic flux shouldn't take out an ADV or proto cloak and so on.
Cloaks are not impossible to see or spot even at a long distance. Also, your reticle turns red as you sweep across an area. Once people figure this out, the QQ won't be as unfounded. Same goes for scrubs knifing and shooting and tossing REs while cloaked.
The fitting is good right now. Any more severe and it will be useless. As it is now, I can't speed tank and stealth tank my typical fit, It is one or the other.
A lot of this QQ is just for the QQ of it. Cotsy is particularly mock poutraging. Same for paradin(sp?). Both are the champions of nerfing it, yet it is woefully apparent their information is not based on personal usage, misunderstanding mechanics of it, and just missing the old glory days of the UP scout. Knifing, for example, outside of the glitch users, is much more difficult to pull off than shotgunning. I;d rather use knives, but they just aren't as viable.
It's a two fold comeuppance- first, we have competitive suits and EWAR- no one is used to it, and people's K/Ds are making them feel it. They need to adapt. The second part of that is scouts had to deal with UP suits for so long we are now like monsters with the new suits. or most. I am trying to **** around and try shotguns out again.. yikes! one good day and I was in la la land.. now the reality is setting in. so i'm not in beast mode yet, but i will be once I get my suits just right.
You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
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Vargralor
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
22
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Posted - 2014.03.28 05:02:00 -
[67] - Quote
It has been suggested in a few of these threads but one way to fix the brick tanking issue is to change the shield extender and armour plates to be percentage based instead of flat values. Tune them so that the percentages give something around a commando the same hitpoints they have now with flat values, cut the base HP on Heavies a bit to compensate. The Assaults should likely have a small HP buff so they work out better than tanking than the logi suits.
Then add stacking penalties to the modules.
Scout suits could still add tank for some extra HP but nowhere like they can now. This should encourage usage of a lot of the other modules that are available now but are little used. |
BARDAS
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
885
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Posted - 2014.03.28 05:02:00 -
[68] - Quote
I don't see anything wrong with cloaks. They seem fairly balanced to me. QQ is from people who don't like the fact that Scouts have an advantage now and can challenge them thus we must be repressed until we are no longer a threat again. Pretty dumb, but I would expect nothing less from this community. |
ReGnYuM
Dirt Nap Squad.
2593
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:05:00 -
[69] - Quote
I think the root of the problem more or less stems from fact this piece of equipment is being more applied for to the slayer aspect then the support.
For example, lets use something as simple flanking.
Currently:
1. Scout enables cloak.
2. Scout proceeds to flank enemies lines.
3. Scout switches to High DPS CQC weapon
4. Scout begins to Gank
When in fact, I feel it should play more to this tune
1. Scout enables cloak.
2. Scout proceeds to flank enemies lines.
3. Scout places uplinks
4. Scout enables massive push of heavies and assaults.
5. Gank ensues
^ Both methods ensure the gank and possible push, but with the first example we eliminate the need for assaults or heavies.
In essence, you removing roles, synergy, and role cohesion.I just feel that any piece of equipment that is drastically going to alter the battlefield mus require at least a two step process.
My SP GAP carries me.
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KGB Sleep
923
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Posted - 2014.03.28 05:08:00 -
[70] - Quote
I like some of the things IWS is going to discuss and sincerely hope that the CPM can use their knowledge of upcoming features (under NDA) to insure that cloaks are strong enough to deal with whatever is coming down the pipe.
People have to understand that when CCP releases things into the wild that they are probably thinking a few updates ahead so stuff can seem crazy to start, but even out later. The thing with tank hardeners was a legitimate mistake though. I refrained from QQ because honestly i thought "Maybe PVE is coming and it is going to be so cray we will actually need these strong as hell tanks to play Paladin for us."
As far as scouts go, they can still be seen and killed with ease. The increase to TTK is enough that you can fight back when ambushed unless you are eating the end of a shotgun. Let a flux disrupt the field and minimap for 30s. Just my two cents.
Because beer, that's why.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13826
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Posted - 2014.03.28 05:10:00 -
[71] - Quote
Vargralor wrote:It has been suggested in a few of these threads but one way to fix the brick tanking issue is to change the shield extender and armour plates to be percentage based instead of flat values. Tune them so that the percentages give something around a commando the same hitpoints they have now with flat values, cut the base HP on Heavies a bit to compensate. The Assaults should likely have a small HP buff so they work out better than tanking than the logi suits.
Then add stacking penalties to the modules.
Scout suits could still add tank for some extra HP but nowhere like they can now. This should encourage usage of a lot of the other modules that are available now but are little used.
Resistance Plates and Fields.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
938
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:14:00 -
[72] - Quote
The fastest suit in the game with the highest alpha weapon in the game shouldn't have 500+ HP and get to be invisible (or even nearly so).
One of these things, or something related, needs to change, IMO.
What that is, I'm not sure, but I will leave that with those who are more familiar with the scout play style, and only say that taking damage and/or flux nades affecting cloak seem to be reasonable first steps to this medium suit player.
I also agree, strongly, with Moody that basic plates are way too CPU/PG cheap, and I think Vargralor had a particularly creative way to solve it (my making their bonus HP variable with respect to base HP values).
Many thanks to IWS for starting this post -- I know he gets a lot of heat from some of you, but who else is reaching out to us for input? |
Cotsy8
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
131
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Posted - 2014.03.28 05:17:00 -
[73] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Cotsy, no one cares. You run a cloak just like everyone else. Quit your bullkitten. If you're not going to contribute constructively stay out of the thread.
Why wouldn't you run a cloak?
-it solves every single problem with the scout class, it.makes up for any poor decisions, any lack of awareness, any mistakes in engagements you make. It is literally one big crutch that rewards poor gameplay and poor decisions, in fact it rewards players are making poor decisions.
Let's see:
1. Cloaks let you hack without being aware of your surrounding. They reward players for reaching an objective and immediate cloaking and hacking it, no reason to check your surrounding because a cloak will help you avoid a bad decision.
2. Cloaks also help scouts cross wide open spaces, usually considered a poor decision to be a fragile suit and cross open space, but a cloak provides a much safer option when crossing open spaces, and therefore rewards a bad decision because you get to where you want to be quicker without intelligent gameplay.
3. Cloaks allow for less strategic gameplay. Scouts are suppose to flank, they are suppose to get behind the enemy because they are fragile and need the advantage of surprise to take down larger targets. The cloaks provides this advantage for free. It rewards scouts who immediate rush the frontline (not really where they are suppose to excel or be) rather than staying on the fringes of battles (avoiding congested areas) and picking off outlier targets (selectively).
This further implies being selective with targets, scouts should have a hard time taking down targets they attack head on.. This is not the case with cloaks. Scouts are able to charge or charge and wait the frontline does and take care of them.
3. Cloaks allow for a class which is based on movement, strategy, selective targeting to be based on cloaking and killing... The movement and objective play and the need to be a killer when the opportunity arises is what a scout does, it doesn't negate the role and replace it with an assault front lines warriors who is slaying everyone in sight. This isn't the Logi slayer 2.0 class, this is a strategic, thought required class. Cloaks don't add it it, they subtract from it by removing skill and rewarding poor decisions to their role.
4. Scouts were fine in 1.7 - some struggled and therefore 1.8 gave a boost - in 1.8 scouts were given 2 equipment slots to be versatile, more flexible and more adaptable to battles. They were also given 2 new scouts, the Cal scout provided a vast new role and again added much to the class. The scout class also received an addict all hi or low slot to their current scouts, which added their flexibility, versatility, adaptability, and power. There was no reason when scouts received a boost that a further OP item was added. Scouts were going to be strong in 1.8 without cloaks, cloaks pushed the class over the top. Cloaks are not required for a scout to be good, and now they are good regardless of skill.
B) Players who were bad players (and still are bad players because they make terrible decisions) turned from bad players into good ones without the player doing anything but turning on the item. This is called a crutch, this is called unnecessary and really should not have bEen the desired effect. This is a matter of a single item adding significant skill, without a player deserving it. If scouts were down and they needed a boost, they received one and these players would have improved marginally until they got enough experience to play properly. But, a cloak has turned bad gameplay by poorly skilled players into killing machines and it a crutch to increase scores from those whose gameplay are not deserving of such rewards. So bad players are now slayers, so its rewarding bad gameplay and not punishing it.
5. The game has some rather serious issues of frame rate, lag, bugs etc.. Adding to this is the shimmer affect of a cloak. Cloaks might work if the game was more polished, but cloaks are unnecessary to a scout excelling, unnecessary to cancel or reward poor gameplay and not required when a scout is played properly. When game is polished, you can introduce cloaks but right now they are a crutch that rewards poor gameplay. Scouts feel they should be able to take anyone 1v1 or even 1v2, of course the elite can do this but cloaks give this ability to anyone and that is wrong. Players should be aware of bad engagements and run, cloaks aren't required for this to occur but provide opportunity to those who don't deserve it. Again, rewards bad decisions and rewards those who are making them because the game can't handle it.
B) There are also some issues with de-cloaking, attacking while cloaked,etc. they should be fixed but it still doesn't mean cloaks should be so so far ahead of any other equipment that not running a cloak is a punishment. As Moody said, i know you are using one..of course, there is 0 balance in equipment and choosing the far and away best option in 1 of 2 slots has to be made. There is no reason to run anything else when a cloak provides such a boost to any type of gameplay (except if you are running a Logi scout, but that's not being a scout).
In summary, cloaks reward everything the scout class is suppose to punish. Poor gameplay, poor decisions, and poor tactics are rewarded with cloaks. A scout is suppose to use movement to flank and get advantages by being strategic, and thst kind of sge play doesn't require a cloak to be successful at. There are 0 valid arguments against cloaks, no one says anything but "nerf eyes they are OP". Those players are just bitches who sucked before and now don't want to nerf their new slayer OP suit because its fun, highly rewards any decision they make, and they are killing players who they havent before.
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
720
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Posted - 2014.03.28 05:18:00 -
[74] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Fix the glitches. also, why should we go deaf when we have one on? I think it is a cute gimmick, but it's lame and disorienting to lose a sense of hearing. Why would that even happen? Also, the shimmer should be commensurate with your speed.
Once they are fixed, let's talk about changes.
First of all, you can not instantly shoot when you decloak. There is already about a second and a half delay when you switch to a weapon. The stamina like functionality is what makes it useful It is the perfect compromise to not being about to hold a weapon or equipment. This was a smart and elegant compromise, and it works. To have a cool down would mean you couldn't multi-task, and that would be annoying. Scouts are all about multi tasking.
Second, the timers are good. basic is 30s, ADV 60s, proto 80s. Not forever, and just enough to be tactically used. Basic cloak is garbage. Proto is too expensive to fit CPU/PG wise- but you can do it with some sacrifice.
Damage shouldn't screw with it at all. Presumably it is hardened underneath your shield and armor.
I could see a flux taking down a cloak outright based on tier- basic flux kills basic cloak, adv to adv, proto to proto. A basic flux shouldn't take out an ADV or proto cloak and so on.
Cloaks are not impossible to see or spot even at a long distance. Also, your reticle turns red as you sweep across an area. Once people figure this out, the QQ won't be as unfounded. Same goes for scrubs knifing and shooting and tossing REs while cloaked.
The fitting is good right now. Any more severe and it will be useless. As it is now, I can't speed tank and stealth tank my typical fit, It is one or the other.
A lot of this QQ is just for the QQ of it. Cotsy is particularly mock poutraging. Same for paradin(sp?). Both are the champions of nerfing it, yet it is woefully apparent their information is not based on personal usage, misunderstanding mechanics of it, and just missing the old glory days of the UP scout. Knifing, for example, outside of the glitch users, is much more difficult to pull off than shotgunning. I;d rather use knives, but they just aren't as viable.
It's a two fold comeuppance- first, we have competitive suits and EWAR- no one is used to it, and people's K/Ds are making them feel it. They need to adapt. The second part of that is scouts had to deal with UP suits for so long we are now like monsters with the new suits. or most. I am trying to **** around and try shotguns out again.. yikes! one good day and I was in la la land.. now the reality is setting in. so i'm not in beast mode yet, but i will be once I get my suits just right.
Well said.
...
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2678
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Posted - 2014.03.28 05:19:00 -
[75] - Quote
mollerz wrote:
First of all, you can not instantly shoot when you decloak. There is already about a second and a half delay when you switch to a weapon. The stamina like functionality is what makes it useful It is the perfect compromise to not being about to hold a weapon or equipment. This was a smart and elegant compromise, and it works. To have a cool down would mean you couldn't multi-task, and that would be annoying. Scouts are all about multi tasking.
Second, the timers are good. basic is 30s, ADV 60s, proto 80s. Not forever, and just enough to be tactically used. Basic cloak is garbage. Proto is too expensive to fit CPU/PG wise- but you can do it with some sacrifice.
Damage shouldn't screw with it at all. Presumably it is hardened underneath your shield and armor.
I could see a flux taking down a cloak outright based on tier- basic flux kills basic cloak, adv to adv, proto to proto. A basic flux shouldn't take out an ADV or proto cloak and so on.
Cloaks are not impossible to see or spot even at a long distance. Also, your reticle turns red as you sweep across an area. Once people figure this out, the QQ won't be as unfounded. Same goes for scrubs knifing and shooting and tossing REs while cloaked.
I've been shot before a guy decloaks in the same manner that I've been shot before someone is made visible after spawning on an objective. Denying this is just biased......which I'm sure you will still do after I record and place the video of being shot before a scout is fully decloaked.
Second, the basic is all you need....you can go invisible for the whole match with the adv. The cloak should work like other active modules in this game. Once you activate and deactivate, there is a cool down. For cloaks, however, once you deactivate, you can immediately reactivate...and that's insane. It doesn't take more than 30 secs (or 15 secs, for that matter) to kill a guy. So, you can activate, deactivate, and reactivate all day if you like. And that's just the basic...if you use the adv, you have more than enough time to do anything you want.
And your last post convinced me that logic isn't your best suit because you're saying that only a basic cloak should be decloaked by a basic flux grenade. Does that even need a rebuttal?
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
|
Vargralor
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:19:00 -
[76] - Quote
A lot of the complaining I have seen is about the shotgun cloak combo. A way to resolve that is move the cloak from the equipment slot to a light weapon slot. This it requires the sacrifice of a weapon slot (just like EVE). Only commandos could pull of the cloak shotgun combo but with their lack of speed and higher profile it is nowhere near as much of a surprise. |
Crimson ShieId
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
300
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:21:00 -
[77] - Quote
Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but a way to partially solve the problem of the brick tanked scouts would be to add another penalty to armor plates. No need to reduce them, just place something along the lines of a scan profile increase when putting them on. The main issue with the cloaked bricks seems to be that they're almost undetectable, in spite of having the HP of a medium suit. Adding a scan profile increase for plates could change this, while making that increase much smaller for reactive plates and nonexistent for Ferroscale would give those modules more of a reason to be used.
Nova Knives are OP! Nerf em before you lose all your proto suits!
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2678
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:21:00 -
[78] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:mollerz wrote:Fix the glitches. also, why should we go deaf when we have one on? I think it is a cute gimmick, but it's lame and disorienting to lose a sense of hearing. Why would that even happen? Also, the shimmer should be commensurate with your speed.
Once they are fixed, let's talk about changes.
First of all, you can not instantly shoot when you decloak. There is already about a second and a half delay when you switch to a weapon. The stamina like functionality is what makes it useful It is the perfect compromise to not being about to hold a weapon or equipment. This was a smart and elegant compromise, and it works. To have a cool down would mean you couldn't multi-task, and that would be annoying. Scouts are all about multi tasking.
Second, the timers are good. basic is 30s, ADV 60s, proto 80s. Not forever, and just enough to be tactically used. Basic cloak is garbage. Proto is too expensive to fit CPU/PG wise- but you can do it with some sacrifice.
Damage shouldn't screw with it at all. Presumably it is hardened underneath your shield and armor.
I could see a flux taking down a cloak outright based on tier- basic flux kills basic cloak, adv to adv, proto to proto. A basic flux shouldn't take out an ADV or proto cloak and so on.
Cloaks are not impossible to see or spot even at a long distance. Also, your reticle turns red as you sweep across an area. Once people figure this out, the QQ won't be as unfounded. Same goes for scrubs knifing and shooting and tossing REs while cloaked.
The fitting is good right now. Any more severe and it will be useless. As it is now, I can't speed tank and stealth tank my typical fit, It is one or the other.
A lot of this QQ is just for the QQ of it. Cotsy is particularly mock poutraging. Same for paradin(sp?). Both are the champions of nerfing it, yet it is woefully apparent their information is not based on personal usage, misunderstanding mechanics of it, and just missing the old glory days of the UP scout. Knifing, for example, outside of the glitch users, is much more difficult to pull off than shotgunning. I;d rather use knives, but they just aren't as viable.
It's a two fold comeuppance- first, we have competitive suits and EWAR- no one is used to it, and people's K/Ds are making them feel it. They need to adapt. The second part of that is scouts had to deal with UP suits for so long we are now like monsters with the new suits. or most. I am trying to **** around and try shotguns out again.. yikes! one good day and I was in la la land.. now the reality is setting in. so i'm not in beast mode yet, but i will be once I get my suits just right.
Well said.
You agreee with this guy? Seriously??
The man said that a basic flux grenade with over 1000 hp of damage shouldn't decloak an advanced cloak that has no hp value whatsoever. How can consider anything he will ever post?
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
|
Cyrius Li-Moody
0uter.Heaven
4155
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:21:00 -
[79] - Quote
ReGnYuM wrote:
Currently:
1. Scout enables cloak.
2. Scout proceeds to flank enemies lines.
3. Scout switches to High DPS CQC weapon
4. Scout begins to Gank
Aaaand shotguns.
I hate to say it but I think cloaks and shotguns are kind dumb and cheap. I'm alright with knives because they are hard to use and leave you exposed. Also only one suit excels at this (the minmatar), it's the most squishy, and it can be countered by a cal scout. Also knives leave you open for half a second on top of the decloak time.
Every other light weapon is fine in my opinion because you have to be in a good position and or be in a fire fight for a little bit. Not with a shotgun.
This might be slightly unpopular but I honestly think there should be a special restriction for shotguns if you have a cloak equipped.
Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
|
Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
720
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:26:00 -
[80] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Ares 514 wrote:mollerz wrote:Fix the glitches. also, why should we go deaf when we have one on? I think it is a cute gimmick, but it's lame and disorienting to lose a sense of hearing. Why would that even happen? Also, the shimmer should be commensurate with your speed.
Once they are fixed, let's talk about changes.
First of all, you can not instantly shoot when you decloak. There is already about a second and a half delay when you switch to a weapon. The stamina like functionality is what makes it useful It is the perfect compromise to not being about to hold a weapon or equipment. This was a smart and elegant compromise, and it works. To have a cool down would mean you couldn't multi-task, and that would be annoying. Scouts are all about multi tasking.
Second, the timers are good. basic is 30s, ADV 60s, proto 80s. Not forever, and just enough to be tactically used. Basic cloak is garbage. Proto is too expensive to fit CPU/PG wise- but you can do it with some sacrifice.
Damage shouldn't screw with it at all. Presumably it is hardened underneath your shield and armor.
I could see a flux taking down a cloak outright based on tier- basic flux kills basic cloak, adv to adv, proto to proto. A basic flux shouldn't take out an ADV or proto cloak and so on.
Cloaks are not impossible to see or spot even at a long distance. Also, your reticle turns red as you sweep across an area. Once people figure this out, the QQ won't be as unfounded. Same goes for scrubs knifing and shooting and tossing REs while cloaked.
The fitting is good right now. Any more severe and it will be useless. As it is now, I can't speed tank and stealth tank my typical fit, It is one or the other.
A lot of this QQ is just for the QQ of it. Cotsy is particularly mock poutraging. Same for paradin(sp?). Both are the champions of nerfing it, yet it is woefully apparent their information is not based on personal usage, misunderstanding mechanics of it, and just missing the old glory days of the UP scout. Knifing, for example, outside of the glitch users, is much more difficult to pull off than shotgunning. I;d rather use knives, but they just aren't as viable.
It's a two fold comeuppance- first, we have competitive suits and EWAR- no one is used to it, and people's K/Ds are making them feel it. They need to adapt. The second part of that is scouts had to deal with UP suits for so long we are now like monsters with the new suits. or most. I am trying to **** around and try shotguns out again.. yikes! one good day and I was in la la land.. now the reality is setting in. so i'm not in beast mode yet, but i will be once I get my suits just right.
Well said. You agreee with this guy? Seriously?? The man said that a basic flux grenade with over 1000 hp of damage shouldn't decloak an advanced cloak that has no hp value whatsoever. How can consider anything he will ever post?
Yes I agree. The flux part I didn't really think mattered but the rest yet. The cloak is not nearly that OP compared to what it could have been. Think of scanners and how long they were crazy OP for. The cloak is no where near that. It's not even two days and everyone is screaming nerf while tanks still slaughter infantry with impunity.
...
|
|
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Cotsy8
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
131
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:29:00 -
[81] - Quote
6. Scouts most survive with CQC weapons, it is a skill to get into range for NK, RE's or SG. A cloak provides that advantage without the skill required to get close. So again, it removes the talent and skill and instead provides it at little cost to strategic play. This also ties into this surprise attack factor, it also applies to using movement and strategy to excel and not just rely on your crutch, i mean cloak. It diminishes the role, the true role of movement and avoiding congested areas, and gives scouts an advantage in these areas while providing the opportunity to get to these areas at little or no threat to their health.
7. There is no drawback from running a cloak. It doesn't fill both equipment slots, so scouts are using same equipment as before and have option of a cloak on top of their old builds. There is no movement or penalty provided by the cape, instead it rewards players with what they should be penalized for in all areas of the game. The cloaks only provides and doesn't take away.
In all honesty scouts are just denying because they don't want to return to their previous struggles. I don't see how it would matter to elite players like Moody who excelled before, a cloak only provides them with a huge boost and removes the chances any mistakes hurt them. I get it, i want to be good but a cloak is fake skill.. Its easy mode, it's not me and my skill it's the cloak and its ability to remove punishment.
Its not a good item, so many items could have helped the scout class and not ended up like this.. Smoke grenades could help hacking, moving through areas, being stealthy, etc.. Cloaks are not required for a scout to excel and lets everyone be good compared to what they would have been due to their lack of skill. Its a help where help shouldn't be given. |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2679
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:31:00 -
[82] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Ares 514 wrote:mollerz wrote:Fix the glitches. also, why should we go deaf when we have one on? I think it is a cute gimmick, but it's lame and disorienting to lose a sense of hearing. Why would that even happen? Also, the shimmer should be commensurate with your speed.
Once they are fixed, let's talk about changes.
First of all, you can not instantly shoot when you decloak. There is already about a second and a half delay when you switch to a weapon. The stamina like functionality is what makes it useful It is the perfect compromise to not being about to hold a weapon or equipment. This was a smart and elegant compromise, and it works. To have a cool down would mean you couldn't multi-task, and that would be annoying. Scouts are all about multi tasking.
Second, the timers are good. basic is 30s, ADV 60s, proto 80s. Not forever, and just enough to be tactically used. Basic cloak is garbage. Proto is too expensive to fit CPU/PG wise- but you can do it with some sacrifice.
Damage shouldn't screw with it at all. Presumably it is hardened underneath your shield and armor.
I could see a flux taking down a cloak outright based on tier- basic flux kills basic cloak, adv to adv, proto to proto. A basic flux shouldn't take out an ADV or proto cloak and so on.
Cloaks are not impossible to see or spot even at a long distance. Also, your reticle turns red as you sweep across an area. Once people figure this out, the QQ won't be as unfounded. Same goes for scrubs knifing and shooting and tossing REs while cloaked.
The fitting is good right now. Any more severe and it will be useless. As it is now, I can't speed tank and stealth tank my typical fit, It is one or the other.
A lot of this QQ is just for the QQ of it. Cotsy is particularly mock poutraging. Same for paradin(sp?). Both are the champions of nerfing it, yet it is woefully apparent their information is not based on personal usage, misunderstanding mechanics of it, and just missing the old glory days of the UP scout. Knifing, for example, outside of the glitch users, is much more difficult to pull off than shotgunning. I;d rather use knives, but they just aren't as viable.
It's a two fold comeuppance- first, we have competitive suits and EWAR- no one is used to it, and people's K/Ds are making them feel it. They need to adapt. The second part of that is scouts had to deal with UP suits for so long we are now like monsters with the new suits. or most. I am trying to **** around and try shotguns out again.. yikes! one good day and I was in la la land.. now the reality is setting in. so i'm not in beast mode yet, but i will be once I get my suits just right.
Well said. You agreee with this guy? Seriously?? The man said that a basic flux grenade with over 1000 hp of damage shouldn't decloak an advanced cloak that has no hp value whatsoever. How can consider anything he will ever post? Yes I agree. The flux part I didn't really think mattered but the rest yes. The cloak is not nearly that OP compared to what it could have been. Think of scanners and how long they were crazy OP for. The cloak is no where near that. It's not even two days and everyone is screaming nerf while tanks still slaughter infantry with impunity.
You can't negate one OP mechanic because another mechanic was more OP. Scanners had a hard counter....dampeners! What is the counter for cloaks?
Cloaks are cheesy and it's already in the game....so we have to deal with another cheesy mechanic brought on by Dust. But it shouldn't be ridiculous. My biggest issues with the cloak is that the scout can take damage and not decloak and that you can shoot a shotty before you're fully decloaked. The decloaking animation isn't fast enough.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
|
Cotsy8
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
131
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:34:00 -
[83] - Quote
There are also some dumb mistakes:
Cloaks are an equipment but Logi don't get a bonus to it, that's smart but wrong. You dont want Logi cloaked slayers, but if its an equipment slot piece, then they should be given it.
Why doesn't flux nades remove cloaking? Its electronic, it would make sense that it would remove cloaking and prevent re-cloaking until "x" amount of time.
Why can't you have the RE and Cloak arms up at same time.... It's not like they are two different arms. Replace RE arm with cloak arm, same arm. You should be able to set off removes but not have them in hand because thats what the inter face is for both equipment.
Why don't dampeners affect cloak shimmer? The less scan profile, the lower the shimmer would make sense. Reward those playing stealth and movement roles and would lightly punish those brick tanking while cloaking. |
Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
720
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:35:00 -
[84] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Ares 514 wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Ares 514 wrote:mollerz wrote:Fix the glitches. also, why should we go deaf when we have one on? I think it is a cute gimmick, but it's lame and disorienting to lose a sense of hearing. Why would that even happen? Also, the shimmer should be commensurate with your speed.
Once they are fixed, let's talk about changes.
First of all, you can not instantly shoot when you decloak. There is already about a second and a half delay when you switch to a weapon. The stamina like functionality is what makes it useful It is the perfect compromise to not being about to hold a weapon or equipment. This was a smart and elegant compromise, and it works. To have a cool down would mean you couldn't multi-task, and that would be annoying. Scouts are all about multi tasking.
Second, the timers are good. basic is 30s, ADV 60s, proto 80s. Not forever, and just enough to be tactically used. Basic cloak is garbage. Proto is too expensive to fit CPU/PG wise- but you can do it with some sacrifice.
Damage shouldn't screw with it at all. Presumably it is hardened underneath your shield and armor.
I could see a flux taking down a cloak outright based on tier- basic flux kills basic cloak, adv to adv, proto to proto. A basic flux shouldn't take out an ADV or proto cloak and so on.
Cloaks are not impossible to see or spot even at a long distance. Also, your reticle turns red as you sweep across an area. Once people figure this out, the QQ won't be as unfounded. Same goes for scrubs knifing and shooting and tossing REs while cloaked.
The fitting is good right now. Any more severe and it will be useless. As it is now, I can't speed tank and stealth tank my typical fit, It is one or the other.
A lot of this QQ is just for the QQ of it. Cotsy is particularly mock poutraging. Same for paradin(sp?). Both are the champions of nerfing it, yet it is woefully apparent their information is not based on personal usage, misunderstanding mechanics of it, and just missing the old glory days of the UP scout. Knifing, for example, outside of the glitch users, is much more difficult to pull off than shotgunning. I;d rather use knives, but they just aren't as viable.
It's a two fold comeuppance- first, we have competitive suits and EWAR- no one is used to it, and people's K/Ds are making them feel it. They need to adapt. The second part of that is scouts had to deal with UP suits for so long we are now like monsters with the new suits. or most. I am trying to **** around and try shotguns out again.. yikes! one good day and I was in la la land.. now the reality is setting in. so i'm not in beast mode yet, but i will be once I get my suits just right.
Well said. You agreee with this guy? Seriously?? The man said that a basic flux grenade with over 1000 hp of damage shouldn't decloak an advanced cloak that has no hp value whatsoever. How can consider anything he will ever post? Yes I agree. The flux part I didn't really think mattered but the rest yes. The cloak is not nearly that OP compared to what it could have been. Think of scanners and how long they were crazy OP for. The cloak is no where near that. It's not even two days and everyone is screaming nerf while tanks still slaughter infantry with impunity. You can't negate one OP mechanic because another mechanic was more OP. Scanners had a hard counter....dampeners! What is the counter for cloaks? Cloaks are cheesy and it's already in the game....so we have to deal with another cheesy mechanic brought on by Dust. But it shouldn't be ridiculous. My biggest issues with the cloak is that the scout can take damage and not decloak and that you can shoot a shotty before you're fully decloaked. The decloaking animation isn't fast enough.
I guess my issue is I don't yet see it being OP. Maybe it could be tweaked but I think some more play testing is in order. Well that happens why don't they fix some OP issues like tanks, CR, heavies (reduce turn speed maybe).
...
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Sgt Buttscratch
R 0 N 1 N
2118
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:36:00 -
[85] - Quote
Idea:
For Decloak/weapon switch and also duration.
Lets do it the Crysis way:
If you deactivate your cloak manually, the time for weapon swap is increased, but current cloak energy levels are maintained.
If you deactive you cloak by shooting, the shot is instant, but cloak is 100% drained, cooldown begins.
Duration
Low speed = longer duration
High speed = shorter duration.
The reason being, when the cloak is active it has to create a perfect image at all times, on all parts of your suit, when running, surroundings cange faster, making cloak work harder, using more energy.
Give me my scrambler pistol back....**
|
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4635
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:39:00 -
[86] - Quote
Cotsy8 wrote:Cloaks are an equipment but Logi don't get a bonus to it, that's smart but wrong. You dont want Logi cloaked slayers, but if its an equipment slot piece, then they should be given it.
Official word is that the cloak is a "Utility" not an Equipment, even though it fills the same slot. |
Sinboto Simmons
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
5408
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:40:00 -
[87] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Cotsy8 wrote:Cloaks are an equipment but Logi don't get a bonus to it, that's smart but wrong. You dont want Logi cloaked slayers, but if its an equipment slot piece, then they should be given it. Official word is that the cloak is a "Utility" not an Equipment, even though it fills the same slot.
Utility slot?
That only scouts get?
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 5
STB-Infantry (Demolition)
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2682
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:40:00 -
[88] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Ares 514 wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Ares 514 wrote:
Well said.
You agreee with this guy? Seriously?? The man said that a basic flux grenade with over 1000 hp of damage shouldn't decloak an advanced cloak that has no hp value whatsoever. How can consider anything he will ever post? Yes I agree. The flux part I didn't really think mattered but the rest yes. The cloak is not nearly that OP compared to what it could have been. Think of scanners and how long they were crazy OP for. The cloak is no where near that. It's not even two days and everyone is screaming nerf while tanks still slaughter infantry with impunity. You can't negate one OP mechanic because another mechanic was more OP. Scanners had a hard counter....dampeners! What is the counter for cloaks? Cloaks are cheesy and it's already in the game....so we have to deal with another cheesy mechanic brought on by Dust. But it shouldn't be ridiculous. My biggest issues with the cloak is that the scout can take damage and not decloak and that you can shoot a shotty before you're fully decloaked. The decloaking animation isn't fast enough. I guess my issue is I don't yet see it being OP. Maybe it could be tweaked but I think some more play testing is in order. Well that happens why don't they fix some OP issues like tanks, CR, heavies (reduce turn speed maybe).
They should fix those issues. However, in this thread, cloaks are up for discussion.
PS: CR got nerfed like all other rifles.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
|
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1500
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:43:00 -
[89] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Cotsy, no one cares. You run a cloak just like everyone else. Quit your bullkitten. If you're not going to contribute constructively stay out of the thread.
right now there are no weaknesses to running a cloak
why defend crutch gameplay?
cloak needs to be ten seconds ON thirty seconds OFF
otherwise its just a crutch gameplay
not that it really matters once June/ July is here.
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
|
Sgt Buttscratch
R 0 N 1 N
2118
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:49:00 -
[90] - Quote
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Cotsy, no one cares. You run a cloak just like everyone else. Quit your bullkitten. If you're not going to contribute constructively stay out of the thread. right now there are no weaknesses to running a cloak why defend crutch gameplay? cloak needs to be ten seconds ON thirty seconds OFF otherwise its just a crutch gameplay not that it really matters once June/ July is here.
Its not crutch, it is a piece of equipment that CAN BE COUNTERED WITH EASE. Try a Thukker, not many scouts have enjoyed them tonight, try using your eyes... you mic, your squad...
Ten seconds is nothing, the duration isn't really the issue. Issue people are having is that they are being ran by full squads, who work together..thus making it seem so much worse. Another issue is the brick tankers...pain in the ass, the need to be busted early..not impossible. I do think brick tanking a scout should have more sever penalties to speed, shimmer visability of cloak and profile db penalties.
Give me my scrambler pistol back....**
|
|
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2684
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:49:00 -
[91] - Quote
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Cotsy, no one cares. You run a cloak just like everyone else. Quit your bullkitten. If you're not going to contribute constructively stay out of the thread. right now there are no weaknesses to running a cloak why defend crutch gameplay? cloak needs to be ten seconds ON thirty seconds OFF otherwise its just a crutch gameplay not that it really matters once June/ July is here.
PS2 will not affect dust
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
|
Shion Typhon
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
448
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:52:00 -
[92] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Couple dozen threads an hour is making it hard for me to keep up with so here's where I am garnering so far.
*Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
I will agree these need to be fixed.
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
*Decloak to weapon swap speed
Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time
I've played cloakers in PS2, Killzone, Crysis, TF2, Halo, Guild Wars, WoW and a bunch of others. While Dust's implementation isn't perfect, it is mostly Ok. The durations are a bit long and the bugs need fixing.
The only serious problem they have is the time gap between due cloaking and firing. Latency is a fact of life in online games and you need to balance for it. Thieves had the same problem in GW2, invisibility didn't take into account latency delays resulting in near permanent invisibility and guaranteed alpha kills. Same with shotguns scouts here.
It doesn't need to be much,just 1 second between the decloak sound and firing is all the warning that is required. Then add 0.5s for latency.
I don't agree with damage dropping the cloak, this is too crippling (except maybe flux grenades). |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2684
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:53:00 -
[93] - Quote
Sgt Buttscratch wrote:Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Cotsy, no one cares. You run a cloak just like everyone else. Quit your bullkitten. If you're not going to contribute constructively stay out of the thread. right now there are no weaknesses to running a cloak why defend crutch gameplay? cloak needs to be ten seconds ON thirty seconds OFF otherwise its just a crutch gameplay not that it really matters once June/ July is here. Its not crutch, it is a piece of equipment that CAN BE COUNTERED WITH EASE. Try a Thukker, not many scouts have enjoyed them tonight, try using your eyes... you mic, your squad... Ten seconds is nothing, the duration isn't really the issue. Issue people are having is that they are being ran by full squads, who work together..thus making it seem so much worse. Another issue is the brick tankers...pain in the ass, the need to be busted early..not impossible. I do think brick tanking a scout should have more sever penalties to speed, shimmer visability of cloak and profile db penalties.
I find your issue with brick tanking funny when you defend cloaking and say it isn't a crutch. The cloak cooldown needs major refinement. They should activate, deactivate, and cooldown like every other active module in the game.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
|
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1501
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:55:00 -
[94] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Fix the glitches. also, why should we go deaf when we have one on? I think it is a cute gimmick, but it's lame and disorienting to lose a sense of hearing. Why would that even happen? Also, the shimmer should be commensurate with your speed.
Once they are fixed, let's talk about changes.
First of all, you can not instantly shoot when you decloak. There is already about a second and a half delay when you switch to a weapon. The stamina like functionality is what makes it useful It is the perfect compromise to not being about to hold a weapon or equipment. This was a smart and elegant compromise, and it works. To have a cool down would mean you couldn't multi-task, and that would be annoying. Scouts are all about multi tasking.
Second, the timers are good. basic is 30s, ADV 60s, proto 80s. Not forever, and just enough to be tactically used. Basic cloak is garbage. Proto is too expensive to fit CPU/PG wise- but you can do it with some sacrifice.
Damage shouldn't screw with it at all. Presumably it is hardened underneath your shield and armor.
I could see a flux taking down a cloak outright based on tier- basic flux kills basic cloak, adv to adv, proto to proto. A basic flux shouldn't take out an ADV or proto cloak and so on.
Cloaks are not impossible to see or spot even at a long distance. Also, your reticle turns red as you sweep across an area. Once people figure this out, the QQ won't be as unfounded. Same goes for scrubs knifing and shooting and tossing REs while cloaked.
The fitting is good right now. Any more severe and it will be useless. As it is now, I can't speed tank and stealth tank my typical fit, It is one or the other.
A lot of this QQ is just for the QQ of it. Cotsy is particularly mock poutraging. Same for paradin(sp?). Both are the champions of nerfing it, yet it is woefully apparent their information is not based on personal usage, misunderstanding mechanics of it, and just missing the old glory days of the UP scout. Knifing, for example, outside of the glitch users, is much more difficult to pull off than shotgunning. I;d rather use knives, but they just aren't as viable.
It's a two fold comeuppance- first, we have competitive suits and EWAR- no one is used to it, and people's K/Ds are making them feel it. They need to adapt. The second part of that is scouts had to deal with UP suits for so long we are now like monsters with the new suits. or most. I am trying to **** around and try shotguns out again.. yikes! one good day and I was in la la land.. now the reality is setting in. so i'm not in beast mode yet, but i will be once I get my suits just right.
the reason is before scanners it took skill to outflank and outmanuver shared squad vision
enter scannerinas and pfffft its CRUTCHVILLE!!!
scannerinas get a nerf but now with harrypotter villa its no skill and no talent camp an objective
playing Fallout 3 again
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
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COVERT SUBTERFUGE
PSU GHOST SYNDICATE
DARKSTAR ARMY
798
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Posted - 2014.03.28 05:55:00 -
[95] - Quote
It's already being said but for the sake of contributing to the voice:
Weapon swap in cloak
This is WAY too fast. I equipped cloaking with much anticipation to my Matari lilbro but even I felt uneasy with the speed at which I could switch to my CR and start unloading. It's too quick and needs to be reduced.
Taking damage in cloak
This needs to rapidly drain your cloak meter. Flux ought to almost fully remove it being an electrical damage weapon.
Hmm, those are my main two issues actually. The trade offs are fair, you shimmer and you're basically deaf but shooting is too easy.
Proud Minmatar scout - Republic Merc 7/10
Immune to bitter/jaded vet syndrome
Alt of THE GREY CARDINAL - eWar Merc
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2684
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Posted - 2014.03.28 05:56:00 -
[96] - Quote
Shion Typhon wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Couple dozen threads an hour is making it hard for me to keep up with so here's where I am garnering so far.
*Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
I will agree these need to be fixed.
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
*Decloak to weapon swap speed
Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time I've played cloakers in PS2, Killzone, Crysis, TF2, Halo, Guild Wars, WoW and a bunch of others. While Dust's implementation isn't perfect, it is mostly Ok. The durations are a bit long and the bugs need fixing. The only serious problem they have is the time gap between due cloaking and firing. Latency is a fact of life in online games and you need to balance for it. Thieves had the same problem in GW2, invisibility didn't take into account latency delays resulting in near permanent invisibility and guaranteed alpha kills. Same with shotguns scouts here. It doesn't need to be much,just 1 second between the decloak sound and firing is all the warning that is required. Then add 0.5s for latency. I don't agree with damage dropping the cloak, this is too crippling (except maybe flux grenades).
Too crippling???? And then you guys say that cloaking isn't a crutch. People rely on cloaks way too much. If you decloak, you still have health...why is it so crippling? "True scouts" (like the ones who self-proclaim themselves to be) have been doing it way before the ability to cloak. And some have been successful with it.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2684
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 05:59:00 -
[97] - Quote
COVERT SUBTERFUGE wrote:It's already being said but for the sake of contributing to the voice:
Weapon swap in cloak
This is WAY too fast. I equipped cloaking with much anticipation to my Matari lilbro but even I felt uneasy with the speed at which I could switch to my CR and start unloading. It's too quick and needs to be reduced.
Taking damage in cloak
This needs to rapidly drain your cloak meter. Flux ought to almost fully remove it being an electrical damage weapon.
Hmm, those are my main two issues actually. The trade offs are fair, you shimmer and you're basically deaf but shooting is too easy.
You are seeing the light, my friend. You must be a 4.0 student.
I can get with bullet damage rapidly draining your cloak meter. I feel they should decloak immediately, at best but I can settle with any move in this direction.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
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Poonmunch
Sanguis Defense Syndicate
822
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Posted - 2014.03.28 06:01:00 -
[98] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:The fastest suit in the game with the highest alpha weapon in the game shouldn't have 500+ HP and get to be invisible (or even nearly so).
Yah, try a scout suit with a charge sniper rifle and a cloak. It can get you into a whole bunch of interesting sniper spots.
Munch
Minmatar Patriot (Level 7)
Dedicated Sniper
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Sgt Buttscratch
R 0 N 1 N
2118
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Posted - 2014.03.28 06:01:00 -
[99] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Sgt Buttscratch wrote:Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Cotsy, no one cares. You run a cloak just like everyone else. Quit your bullkitten. If you're not going to contribute constructively stay out of the thread. right now there are no weaknesses to running a cloak why defend crutch gameplay? cloak needs to be ten seconds ON thirty seconds OFF otherwise its just a crutch gameplay not that it really matters once June/ July is here. Its not crutch, it is a piece of equipment that CAN BE COUNTERED WITH EASE. Try a Thukker, not many scouts have enjoyed them tonight, try using your eyes... you mic, your squad... Ten seconds is nothing, the duration isn't really the issue. Issue people are having is that they are being ran by full squads, who work together..thus making it seem so much worse. Another issue is the brick tankers...pain in the ass, the need to be busted early..not impossible. I do think brick tanking a scout should have more sever penalties to speed, shimmer visability of cloak and profile db penalties. I find your issue with brick tanking funny when you defend cloaking and say it isn't a crutch. The cloak cooldown needs major refinement. They should activate, deactivate, and cooldown like every other active module in the game.
Not everything has to be the same... A charge shot from a scrambler rifle can be followed by a very fast semi auto onslaught, charge shot on the Ion pistol instantly over heats the weapon, Charge shot on the charge sniper, resets the charge to zero...
I also posted above that the deactivation should be slightly different. You Idea though is typical of the crutches of needing to always see your target, one of those who lost skill due to the map always being lit up for you.
As I said its not a crutch, its the new equipment learn to deal with it.
Luckily for you, between CPM and CCP they nerf the cloak into the ground.. so people with no game can continue to scrub it up.
Give me my scrambler pistol back....**
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Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1502
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Posted - 2014.03.28 06:02:00 -
[100] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Cotsy, no one cares. You run a cloak just like everyone else. Quit your bullkitten. If you're not going to contribute constructively stay out of the thread. right now there are no weaknesses to running a cloak why defend crutch gameplay? cloak needs to be ten seconds ON thirty seconds OFF otherwise its just a crutch gameplay not that it really matters once June/ July is here. PS2 will not affect dust
E3 2014 and 100 PS4 games will effect dust.
The new Hottness will be purchased
To deny increasing PS4 games and PS4 console sales is really out there.
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
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|
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Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1502
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Posted - 2014.03.28 06:06:00 -
[101] - Quote
Sgt Buttscratch wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Sgt Buttscratch wrote:Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Cotsy, no one cares. You run a cloak just like everyone else. Quit your bullkitten. If you're not going to contribute constructively stay out of the thread. right now there are no weaknesses to running a cloak why defend crutch gameplay? cloak needs to be ten seconds ON thirty seconds OFF otherwise its just a crutch gameplay not that it really matters once June/ July is here. Its not crutch, it is a piece of equipment that CAN BE COUNTERED WITH EASE. Try a Thukker, not many scouts have enjoyed them tonight, try using your eyes... you mic, your squad... Ten seconds is nothing, the duration isn't really the issue. Issue people are having is that they are being ran by full squads, who work together..thus making it seem so much worse. Another issue is the brick tankers...pain in the ass, the need to be busted early..not impossible. I do think brick tanking a scout should have more sever penalties to speed, shimmer visability of cloak and profile db penalties. I find your issue with brick tanking funny when you defend cloaking and say it isn't a crutch. The cloak cooldown needs major refinement. They should activate, deactivate, and cooldown like every other active module in the game. Not everything has to be the same... A charge shot from a scrambler rifle can be followed by a very fast semi auto onslaught, charge shot on the Ion pistol instantly over heats the weapon, Charge shot on the charge sniper, resets the charge to zero... I also posted above that the deactivation should be slightly different. You Idea though is typical of the crutches of needing to always see your target, one of those who lost skill due to the map always being lit up for you. As I said its not a crutch, its the new equipment learn to deal with it. Luckily for you, between CPM and CCP they nerf the cloak into the ground.. so people with no game can continue to scrub it up.
its a shield based equipment but when my laser hits a cloak the cloak is still up
cloak needs fixes
otherwise its a crutch
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
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Cyrius Li-Moody
0uter.Heaven
4159
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Posted - 2014.03.28 06:14:00 -
[102] - Quote
Honestly I feel shotguns are the biggest problem in this whole cloak equation aside from fluxes not pulling you from cloak.
There's a reason you see everyone running around with shotguns instead of knives. They're way easier to use. While knives give the same effect you cannot get the guaranteed kills a shotgun will give you with such ease of use. High risk, high reward. Shotguns on top of a cloak is way too easy and cheap.
Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
720
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Posted - 2014.03.28 06:19:00 -
[103] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Ares 514 wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Ares 514 wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:......
You agreee with this guy? Seriously??
The man said that a basic flux grenade with over 1000 hp of damage shouldn't decloak an advanced cloak that has no hp value whatsoever. How can consider anything he will ever post? Yes I agree. The flux part I didn't really think mattered but the rest yes. The cloak is not nearly that OP compared to what it could have been. Think of scanners and how long they were crazy OP for. The cloak is no where near that. It's not even two days and everyone is screaming nerf while tanks still slaughter infantry with impunity. You can't negate one OP mechanic because another mechanic was more OP. Scanners had a hard counter....dampeners! What is the counter for cloaks? Cloaks are cheesy and it's already in the game....so we have to deal with another cheesy mechanic brought on by Dust. But it shouldn't be ridiculous. My biggest issues with the cloak is that the scout can take damage and not decloak and that you can shoot a shotty before you're fully decloaked. The decloaking animation isn't fast enough. I guess my issue is I don't yet see it being OP. Maybe it could be tweaked but I think some more play testing is in order. Well that happens why don't they fix some OP issues like tanks, CR, heavies (reduce turn speed maybe). They should fix those issues. However, in this thread, cloaks are up for discussion. PS: CR got nerfed like all other rifles.
Yes, so why is the CPM finally paying attention to this, a minor imbalance at best, while leaving other far larger issues broken for so long? This is an issue for me.
FYI, CR was reduced with other weapons but it still needs fixing since it was the most OP of them all. The armour shield % are imbalanced relative to other weapons.
...
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2690
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Posted - 2014.03.28 06:20:00 -
[104] - Quote
Sgt Buttscratch wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I find your issue with brick tanking funny when you defend cloaking and say it isn't a crutch. The cloak cooldown needs major refinement. They should activate, deactivate, and cooldown like every other active module in the game.
Not everything has to be the same... A charge shot from a scrambler rifle can be followed by a very fast semi auto onslaught, charge shot on the Ion pistol instantly over heats the weapon, Charge shot on the charge sniper, resets the charge to zero... I also posted above that the deactivation should be slightly different. You Idea though is typical of the crutches of needing to always see your target, one of those who lost skill due to the map always being lit up for you. As I said its not a crutch, its the new equipment learn to deal with it. Luckily for you, between CPM and CCP they nerf the cloak into the ground.. so people with no game can continue to scrub it up.
Hold on :D so now it's a crutch to be able to see someone who's right in front of me to aim and fire? And it isn't a crutch to make yourself invisible so noone can see you?
I don't know what to say....
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
720
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Posted - 2014.03.28 06:23:00 -
[105] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Sgt Buttscratch wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I find your issue with brick tanking funny when you defend cloaking and say it isn't a crutch. The cloak cooldown needs major refinement. They should activate, deactivate, and cooldown like every other active module in the game.
Not everything has to be the same... A charge shot from a scrambler rifle can be followed by a very fast semi auto onslaught, charge shot on the Ion pistol instantly over heats the weapon, Charge shot on the charge sniper, resets the charge to zero... I also posted above that the deactivation should be slightly different. You Idea though is typical of the crutches of needing to always see your target, one of those who lost skill due to the map always being lit up for you. As I said its not a crutch, its the new equipment learn to deal with it. Luckily for you, between CPM and CCP they nerf the cloak into the ground.. so people with no game can continue to scrub it up. Hold on :D so now it's a crutch to be able to see someone who's right in front of me to aim and fire? And it isn't a crutch to make yourself invisible so noone can see you? I don't know what to say....
Seriously I don't get it. I have little problem seeing most cloaked scouts. Sure the odd one catches you with your pants down but usually you can pick them out.
...
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2690
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 06:23:00 -
[106] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:Yes, so why is the CPM finally paying attention to this, a minor imbalance at best, while leaving other far larger issues broken for so long? This is an issue for me.
FYI, CR was reduced with other weapons but it still needs fixing since it was the most OP of them all. The armour shield % are imbalanced relative to other weapons.
The Viziam scrambler rifle was the most OP of all the rifles
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
|
Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
720
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Posted - 2014.03.28 06:25:00 -
[107] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Ares 514 wrote:Yes, so why is the CPM finally paying attention to this, a minor imbalance at best, while leaving other far larger issues broken for so long? This is an issue for me.
FYI, CR was reduced with other weapons but it still needs fixing since it was the most OP of them all. The armour shield % are imbalanced relative to other weapons.
The Viziam scrambler rifle was the most OP of all the rifles
Fine, I yield, that was OP to. But the CR was ridiculous how fast it shredded you.
...
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2690
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 06:28:00 -
[108] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Sgt Buttscratch wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I find your issue with brick tanking funny when you defend cloaking and say it isn't a crutch. The cloak cooldown needs major refinement. They should activate, deactivate, and cooldown like every other active module in the game.
Not everything has to be the same... A charge shot from a scrambler rifle can be followed by a very fast semi auto onslaught, charge shot on the Ion pistol instantly over heats the weapon, Charge shot on the charge sniper, resets the charge to zero... I also posted above that the deactivation should be slightly different. You Idea though is typical of the crutches of needing to always see your target, one of those who lost skill due to the map always being lit up for you. As I said its not a crutch, its the new equipment learn to deal with it. Luckily for you, between CPM and CCP they nerf the cloak into the ground.. so people with no game can continue to scrub it up. Hold on :D so now it's a crutch to be able to see someone who's right in front of me to aim and fire? And it isn't a crutch to make yourself invisible so noone can see you? I don't know what to say.... Seriously I don't get it. I have little problem seeing most cloaked scouts. Sure the odd one catches you with your pants down but usually you can pick them out.
I can see them but it isn't all o fthat easy to track them. Sure, I can spot one running if he's in my view. But to track them while they're running and jumping around isn't the easiest thing to do.
But the point that you quoted was that dude said it is a crutch to want to see enemies and implies that it isn't a crutch to make yourself invisible so noone can seeyou. It is backwards and ridiculous a tthe same time.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
3847
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Posted - 2014.03.28 06:28:00 -
[109] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:I'm already having problems fitting the cloak. *sigh* the joys of being minmatar.
Yeah CCP don't make the cloak harder to fit. That's like cutting off a foot to deal with an infected finger.
The problem with eHP tanking is a simple one.
Plates are too easy to fit and provide way to much eHP without enough drawbacks.
Bring back the old Plate penalties, and rebalance the eHP Modules CPU and PG values.
Plates should be High PG
Shields should be High CPU
You can even throw in an extra "Optimization" Skill to reduce their respective values (Like how the tanks got).
I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost
I hack at Mach V
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Spectre-M
The Generals
General Tso's Alliance
354
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Posted - 2014.03.28 06:37:00 -
[110] - Quote
The decloak animation should have to finish before firing ( weapon locked time = cloak animation time ).
If the cloak is active and is hit by a Flux, it should drain the cloakstqzteou power in hp form, then dig into shields with remaining flux damage ( with HP levels of cloak rising with each tier ). WaIf inactive, flux works as normal.
This actually follows the TF2 spy mechanics for the cloak. Any firing during cloak is always a bad mechanic.
Amarr Factional Warfare Loyalist
Minnmatar in Amarr Armor
I am a Wolf in Sheeps Clothing
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Vyuru
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
38
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Posted - 2014.03.28 06:42:00 -
[111] - Quote
I see 0, I repeat, ZERO, issues with the current cloaking mechanisms, outside of glitches that I am not aware of. I see people mentioning them, but don't know what they are. If it's a glitch, I'm all for fixing it.
That being said....
I cannot fathom the reasons people have issues with the cloak. Used intelligently, the basic, adv, and proto cloaks are devastating. Used poorly, you just sit there and laugh at the poor little cloaked scout as he goes splat. I may come off as being a bit rude here, but I'm under the impression that people are complaining because suddenly scouts aren't the easy kills they were before.
People have mentioned that they'd like flux grenades to disrupt cloaks, allrighty, I can see that, nor would I mind this.
But let's look at the rest of these "complaints"
#1) Decloaking to weapon ready/firing is too fast.
First off, to catch up to my target I have to sprint, which makes me very visible and uses up my cloak energy faster, if I drop below half energy, I have to wait to recloak. Secondly, when I decloak there is a rather loud noise that I've had no issues hearing when fighting other cloaking scouts, or running with team/squad mates. Next, you know why you hear me whisper in your ear, "What are we looking at?" before you get a head full of lead? It's because I've been running behind you, and you have never once bothered to do a quick 360 to see if anyone was sneaking up on you. If people had more situational awareness, or had another squad mate acting as rearguard, I'd have a MUCH harder time ambushing.
Furthermore, once you swap to your weapon you start to decloak and become even more visible. If the guy you are after isn't doing 360s, I'm just rather of the mindset that he was outsmarted and outplayed. Unless someone can tell me otherwise, I have a hard time feeling sympathetic.
Another way to put this is that I could easily kill you without a cloak in this scenario, which I have seen alot of lately. The cloak is to help hide from people further away, and if I see you start to turn, to stand still and crouch to hide.
#2) Damage to cloak.
I am neither for nor against this at this time. A moving cloaked scout is easy to see so I don't exactly see the need to deplete cloak faster or for more shimmer. Also, if you know they're hiding behind a pillar or something just chuck a grenade at 'em, that will kill them fast enough.
#3) Too "easy" to fit a cloak
I'm just going to sit here and say no. I have most of my core skills to lvl 5, and my chosen scouts suits to lvl 5 as well. I can fit mostly Adv tech on an Adv suit, maybe have a very select few proto modules (mostly complex precision modules) and Adv weapons. A player who does not have all lvl 5 core skills and suits, not to mention the skills to reduce CPU/PG of weapons, will not be able to fit a scout as well as I can. Frankly, I have proto skills, and I still have to choose between weapons/modules/other fittings if I want to run with an Adv cloak and have Adv gear, I can't have it all. If I want to stick a proto cloak on a Adv suit then I really have to pick and choose carefully, I have to give up something because those suckers are highly CPU/PG intensive. So I think this is working as intended. I don't mess with proto suits, so I can't really comment on those.
#4) Brick tanked scouts.
Brick tanked scouts were always a bit of an issue, I can see why people would complain about 'em with cloaks tossed on as well. I could see an argument being made that the penalties for armor plates affect suits lighter than say, maybe heavy suits, more. Further I'd say the lighter the suit, the more the penalty affects it.
#5) Cloaks last too long/recharge too fast.
Gonna disagree with this one. Smart usage lets me extend the life of my cloak much longer than I'm seeing other people get out of their cloaks. Hit cloak, dash across open ground, drop cloak for a few moments, then reactivate and continue. Frankly I pulse my cloak, unless I'm in an engagement. I see too many people just use up a entire cloak charge in one go which is downright foolish.
I find it amusing that people claim cloaks are "EZ mode". No, it's a thinking man's tool.
So to reiterate:
People need to up their situational awareness. Blindly rushing around the battlefield is the quickest way to die. Good teamwork is vital. And if you see me on the battlefield, get ready to be beaten to death with your own skull!!!
Final piece of advice. If you are in a group of 4, rushing an objective, and you see all those little blue dots following you start to disappear, and you hear the sounds of a shotgun, you might, just might, want to turn around before you are the last blue dot. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
7689
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Posted - 2014.03.28 07:18:00 -
[112] - Quote
Brick tanking cloakies isn't an issue. A commando can still be spotted by even even a Minmatar or Amarr scout with an standard active scanner and that's before having to account for the Gallente and Caldari scouts which have excellent passive scan capabilities. So a cloaked commando for example will have a very tough time trying to hide even with a cloak on it.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13834
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Posted - 2014.03.28 07:47:00 -
[113] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:
Yes, so why is the CPM finally paying attention to this, a minor imbalance at best, while leaving other far larger issues broken for so long? This is an issue for me.
FYI, CR was reduced with other weapons but it still needs fixing since it was the most OP of them all. The armour shield % are imbalanced relative to other weapons.
You can blame takario from red star why I would like to avoid talking about vehicles in general. Most other issues have been talked about just pending action now. Also like I said the devs are in a hot fixing mood might be able to get something squeezed in before we have to wait until next code patch (which nobody has any idea when that will be) So I don't want the new toys with problems to be old toys with long standing problems come around next code integration.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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DozersMouse XIII
Ultramarine Corp
291
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Posted - 2014.03.28 07:55:00 -
[114] - Quote
my opinion on cloak
make the cloak deactivate the same way you activate "by pressing your wrist buttons"
this will make you think twice about decloaking and cloaking in different situations
make the cloak have a sound
so smarter players that use their ears along with their eyes have some kind of advantage
make flux grenades disrupt them in some kind of way
last but not least "my favorite"
make the cloak SLOW down the spped of the scout
lets say you sprint at 8.1 meters a second
after you activate the cloak it slows down your sprint to 7.1
this will make the cloak more of a defensive mod then an offensive mod like it is currently
IMHO I want the cloak to be an item I can activate to avoid scans, LOS, turrets, tanks, etc
I want the cloak so I can run across the long strech to the objective then look around for RE's while cloaked
I want to be able to avoid confrontations and hack make a couple kills recloak and move to the next objective
Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes
Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake
Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
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Chibi Andy
Forsaken Immortals
Top Men.
1133
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Posted - 2014.03.28 08:25:00 -
[115] - Quote
as a heavy im fine with scouts killing me when they were using the cloak, it gives them an edge. what i dont like is that they stay invisible while killing me and not giving me a chance to fight back 
that de-cloaking animation takes too long and they just pop 2-3 SG shots into me and im dead without even seeing the person de-cloak.
i think thats the main problem with the cloak along side the weapons out while cloaked bug.
YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED!!!
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(pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+
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RemingtonBeaver
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
384
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 08:37:00 -
[116] - Quote
Played quite a few games as a minmatar heal-o-matic. Following my heavy friend and watching for scout movements while he trudges forward I'm watching our flanks.
I like it. It makes the game interesting.
We spotted plenty of scouts and killed all the ones we caught shimmering . And we killed a few that were at the wrong place at the wrong time.
On both sides of the issue I think the cloaks are amazing.
IWS: Fix the glitches. Ignore the bitches.
With 2 more racial grenades to be introduced so one of those should effect the cloaks like the fluxes inevitably will.
We can pickle that.
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Eric Del Carlo
Inner.Hell
89
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Posted - 2014.03.28 08:48:00 -
[117] - Quote
Vyuru wrote:I see 0, I repeat, ZERO, issues with the current cloaking mechanisms, outside of glitches that I am not aware of. I see people mentioning them, but don't know what they are. If it's a glitch, I'm all for fixing it.
That being said....
I cannot fathom the reasons people have issues with the cloak. Used intelligently, the basic, adv, and proto cloaks are devastating. Used poorly, you just sit there and laugh at the poor little cloaked scout as he goes splat. I may come off as being a bit rude here, but I'm under the impression that people are complaining because suddenly scouts aren't the easy kills they were before.
People have mentioned that they'd like flux grenades to disrupt cloaks, allrighty, I can see that, nor would I mind this.
But let's look at the rest of these "complaints"
#1) Decloaking to weapon ready/firing is too fast.
First off, to catch up to my target I have to sprint, which makes me very visible and uses up my cloak energy faster, if I drop below half energy, I have to wait to recloak. Secondly, when I decloak there is a rather loud noise that I've had no issues hearing when fighting other cloaking scouts, or running with team/squad mates. Next, you know why you hear me whisper in your ear, "What are we looking at?" before you get a head full of lead? It's because I've been running behind you, and you have never once bothered to do a quick 360 to see if anyone was sneaking up on you. If people had more situational awareness, or had another squad mate acting as rearguard, I'd have a MUCH harder time ambushing.
Furthermore, once you swap to your weapon you start to decloak and become even more visible. If the guy you are after isn't doing 360s, I'm just rather of the mindset that he was outsmarted and outplayed. Unless someone can tell me otherwise, I have a hard time feeling sympathetic.
Another way to put this is that I could easily kill you without a cloak in this scenario, which I have seen alot of lately. The cloak is to help hide from people further away, and if I see you start to turn, to stand still and crouch to hide.
#2) Damage to cloak.
I am neither for nor against this at this time. A moving cloaked scout is easy to see so I don't exactly see the need to deplete cloak faster or for more shimmer. Also, if you know they're hiding behind a pillar or something just chuck a grenade at 'em, that will kill them fast enough.
#3) Too "easy" to fit a cloak
I'm just going to sit here and say no. I have most of my core skills to lvl 5, and my chosen scouts suits to lvl 5 as well. I can fit mostly Adv tech on an Adv suit, maybe have a very select few proto modules (mostly complex precision modules) and Adv weapons. A player who does not have all lvl 5 core skills and suits, not to mention the skills to reduce CPU/PG of weapons, will not be able to fit a scout as well as I can. Frankly, I have proto skills, and I still have to choose between weapons/modules/other fittings if I want to run with an Adv cloak and have Adv gear, I can't have it all. If I want to stick a proto cloak on a Adv suit then I really have to pick and choose carefully, I have to give up something because those suckers are highly CPU/PG intensive. So I think this is working as intended. I don't mess with proto suits, so I can't really comment on those.
#4) Brick tanked scouts.
Brick tanked scouts were always a bit of an issue, I can see why people would complain about 'em with cloaks tossed on as well. I could see an argument being made that the penalties for armor plates affect suits lighter than say, maybe heavy suits, more. Further I'd say the lighter the suit, the more the penalty affects it.
#5) Cloaks last too long/recharge too fast.
Gonna disagree with this one. Smart usage lets me extend the life of my cloak much longer than I'm seeing other people get out of their cloaks. Hit cloak, dash across open ground, drop cloak for a few moments, then reactivate and continue. Frankly I pulse my cloak, unless I'm in an engagement. I see too many people just use up a entire cloak charge in one go which is downright foolish.
I find it amusing that people claim cloaks are "EZ mode". No, it's a thinking man's tool.
So to reiterate:
People need to up their situational awareness. Blindly rushing around the battlefield is the quickest way to die. Good teamwork is vital. And if you see me on the battlefield, get ready to be beaten to death with your own skull!!!
Final piece of advice. If you are in a group of 4, rushing an objective, and you see all those little blue dots following you start to disappear, and you hear the sounds of a shotgun, you might, just might, want to turn around before you are the last blue dot.
One if the best argument against cloak QQ I've read so far
GÖà 0uter.Heaven ... Inner.Hell GÖà
ßâÜ(a¦át¢èa¦áßâÜ) ... Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼ pâÄ( pé£-pé£pâÄ) ... (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+ ... Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼ pâÄ( pé£-pé£pâÄ) ... Gö¼GöÇGö¼n++ n+¦ /(.Gûí. \n+ë
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
852
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 08:51:00 -
[118] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Glitches obviously need to be fixed, but glitches are glitches.
Moving while cloaked is easy to see.
Flux grenades should fully drain a cloaks recharge meter thing. I haven't used them personally, so I can't really comment on the rest. You shouldn't be decloaked from damage.
Brick tanking is a problem that CCP has been creating for a while, and they only further encouraged it with the 1.8 TTK changes.
I am not sure on the flux thing why a flux should affect one equipment but the other? A scanner functions just as normal when hit by a cloak, the same is true for the reptool both are handheld equipment just like the cloak.
What could work is damage draining from weapons draining your cloaks energy. Or a complete rework of flux grenade that makes them EMP grenades....
I agree the bugs need fixing but that has nothing to do with balancing. Any nerf to cloaks will render them useless. They are already hardly that effective as people make them. I have no problems to see cloaked scouts in most cases and other don't seem to have a problem seeing me.
The only thing I don't like about cloaking is it encourage camping as this is where the cloak is most useful... |
m twiggz
Pradox One
Proficiency V.
388
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 08:57:00 -
[119] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Couple dozen threads an hour is making it hard for me to keep up with so here's where I am garnering so far.
*Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
I will agree these need to be fixed.
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
*Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux
I agree but a full disruption punishes pure blind luck of stray shots that can happen as well. I rather see a few tweaks instead such as cloak timer draining because of damage and longer lasting cloak scattering because of damage.
As for flux, I would like to see a massive chuck eaten out of the timer with it (scaled to the flux damage maybe?)
*Cloak Noise
Maybe for self sound its a bit too loud and out of balance but as a third person its balanced.
*Decloak to weapon swap speed
Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time.
*Cloak timer at prototype
80 seconds is an eternity waiting for it to recharge. I think a second variant of cloaks is warranted, something with 30 second timer across all tiers and faster cooldown efficiency.
*Cloaked hacking
I see no problems currently with this.
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus. While we could go after the tanking modules themselves that's going to effect ALL classes and that would get more messy than needed.
=Anything else did I miss?=
Will update points and discussion if new things are brought to my attention. I know with the 1.8 patch then 1.8 hotfix this week and the follow up tonight and possibly more on the way lots of crap flying around and my time is split between paying attention to you guys and working with fanfest build. My opinion on cloaks right now is not hardline and easily subject to change which is why I am striking up this conversation.
OT posts will not be tolerated. I know vehicle rebalancing just hit but I feel that there hasn't been enough time to adapt around it yet to see if more follow ups are needed or if they went overboard.
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet. Other balance issues are on the fire still but rather focus on this before we get too far away from 1.8 hotfix mood and far too deep into the next patch cycle.
The only issue with the cloak, other than the glitch - ffs CCP, is the no delay between uncloaking and shooting. There needs to be somewhat of a delay like you stated. With that implemented, .5 sec increments sounds splendid, cloaks will be a more viable equipment than a weapon. |
Orin the Freak
The Solecism of Limitation
756
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Posted - 2014.03.28 09:01:00 -
[120] - Quote
I'd say make it take a second after decloaking before you can fire a weapon/throw a grenade. furthermore, taking hits should deplete the cloak at a rate comparable to the damage taken. That said, a flux should drain the cloak completely and decloak someone, unless they are using a near-full proto cloak, and then they'd only have a few seconds left to run away before they decloak. |
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Mregomies
Beer For Evil Mercs
193
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Posted - 2014.03.28 09:05:00 -
[121] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
Actually it is quite easy to shoot cloaked mercs with sniper rifle. My personal best is 578m with Thale's in Bridge domination map.
I use cloak with ck.0 scout when using REmotes at objektive.
imo that cloak is balanced after those "cloaked knife kills" will be fixwd
Suomi, Finland, PERKELE!
Logibro
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13843
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 09:07:00 -
[122] - Quote
Mregomies wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
Actually it is quite easy to shoot cloaked mercs with sniper rifle. My personal best is 578m with Thale's in Bridge domination map. I use cloak with ck.0 scout when using REmotes at objektive. imo that cloak is balanced after those "cloaked knife kills" will be fixwd
Wasn't using a sniper though. 100 meters is pretty for no ads.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Kovinis Sparagas
Bullet Cluster
199
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 09:13:00 -
[123] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
I was sniped wile been CLOAKED! So I think it is good there it is.
P.S. I don't thin anything should effect cloaking time like flux granade damage
I support BPO removal;
RDV to take your vehicles back;
and racial weapons on starter fits
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ryo sayo mio
Nyain Chan
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 09:26:00 -
[124] - Quote
why is this game becoming easy mode? first AA than scanners aka wall hack and now cloaks |
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
937
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 09:36:00 -
[125] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Paran Tadec wrote:I have found some issues. Naturally, those without gun game will complain about any changes to cloak.
However, I have proposed a few changes that should make cloak more balanced/skill based:
1. Either fix the decloaking animation to be faster, or add a delay on offensive capabilities other than hacking. ie, you have to fully decloak to fire. This is striaght from Eve. Allow the time to fire to decrease per level.
this doesnt seem to bad
2. Lower the stupidly high uptime of the cloak and add a mandatory downtime. Such that, you can just one shot someone from behind and cloak, repeat, and take on multiple people. It'll force scout to chose targets smarter. Again, depending on SP investment, this can be lowered per level.
i say make it a solid 35-40 seconds and increase the cooldown and give scouts a bonus to lower that cooldown
3. Heavily increase the fitting reqs for cloaks and give scouts a bonus that only allows them to fit them. Cloaks in Dust are essentially covert ops cloaks from Eve. Other cloaks in eve dont allow you to move very fast at all.
increasing pg to 40 and cpu to 175 and making the scout bonus 20-25% reduction in pg/cpu and a small bonus to claok cooldown
4. Decloak mandatory on flux. Cloak field shimmer on taking damage from other weapons.
i think the flux should take only 1/4 or half of the timer depending on where its at and dmg only reduces it at a time
Do this and cloak will still be powerful and fun. I could work with these.
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
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Umma Kabula
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
7
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Posted - 2014.03.28 10:06:00 -
[126] - Quote
Sorry for bed inglish, not my first language XD
IMHO, cloack as it is now isn't working as intended. I thought it should have helped me more bypassing walls of enemies undetected in order to take a tactical advantage than in killing randoms...
I thought the cloack should have been something with REALLY HUGE needs of cpu/pg. But I can fit pretty much all I want even with that. I shouldn't be able to be tanked and cloacked at the same time. I think this is a little too much.
I don't like the mechanics.. I'd like something more focused on infiltration/evasion.
As it is now, It is too easy to take advantage of A RANDOM (just don't approach him 30 meters far when he's looking in your direction and he will be dead).
At the same time, it's not that useful vs ORGANIZED SQUADS. Enemies will easily spot you if you're moving. 1 enemy spots you, 6 guys comin'...
Actually, I have to do exactly what i had to do before the cloack came in. Moving from cover to cover.
It definitely helps me in doing that. i get noticed a lot less by "randoms". And it feels like I'm completely invisible if the enemy is focused on something else. but it doesn't open new tactical windows (like it was before the cloak, I just need less accuracy in doing that)
I'd like a change in the mechanics. Or maybe just a variant of the cloack. Something that keeps you invisible even if you're sprinting. Or even better ONLY if you're sprinting (you wanna be invisible? run cardio instead of tanking). Give it ENORMOUS fitting costs (just basic weapons and modules with that) and a lot shorter cloacking time (10s at basic? maybe a little more?) mixed with higher regen time and higher delay after decloacking.
Like this, you have ridicolous offensive/defensive capabilities but a great tactical advantage.
For example: one objective is full of enemies, the squad has difficulties in breaking those defences.. I cloack myself, run in at the best moment (even if you're completely invisible, enemies crosshairs will still become red), bypass them, get to a nice point, de-cloack, flux other squad's uplinks, put down mine, re-cloack and run away.
Situation 2: a enemy spots me. With current cloack i have to stay still in order to get that invisibility. With that variant i can cloack myself for about 10 secs.. just the time to run away and find a cover.
You wouldn't be perma-cloaked, you have to think more on when to use that.
No kill exploitation, just a great tactical advantage. I think this would give a more defined role to the cloack.
If you want a more "powerful" scout, run a fit without a cloack (like I'm doing... i can use a wyirkomi injector and still run a lot of complex mods XD
thnx for all the fish!
Umma Kabula, Wolfgang Tee Funk, Il Gallo Cedrone. Sono uno e trino.
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The Robot Devil
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
2207
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Posted - 2014.03.28 10:55:00 -
[127] - Quote
Cotsy8 wrote:
Why doesn't flux nades remove cloaking? Its electronic, it would make sense that it would remove cloaking and prevent re-cloaking until "x" amount of time.
Based on that rational dropsuits should stop moving, armor repairers should stop repping, extenders and dampeners should stop working and anything that uses CPU should shut down or be destroyed.
So far the cloaks seem to be in the right spot and the problems that most have are bugs and the light frame's ability to have a large tank. Maybe dial back the amount of tank a light frame can have, light frames should be able to brick tank but if they tank as well as or better than a medium then the tank aspect of the suit is the problem not the cloak.
I am afraid that if flux did disrupt cloaks then we would see too much flux spam and then QQ for a flux nerf. I would totally go for a decloaking grenade or nanohive type piece of equipment that allows a merc or squad to protect themselves or an area against cloaky mercs. I think adding things to the game that give the average player a way to hard counter a cloak, I know there are counters now, but requires them sacrifice something to do so. I will always be for adding things to the game instead of nerfing something that some players just don't like.
"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production."
Raoul Duke
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Floyd20 Azizora
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
42
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Posted - 2014.03.28 11:03:00 -
[128] - Quote
fix bugs and glitches, wait 2 weeks for people to get bored of them and move on. then we can see if anything needs to be done.
i will point out that basic plates are better then complex shield extenders in almost every possible way (about 16% cpu, 9% PG, very small penalty, 20 more hp) |
BAD FURRY
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
698
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 11:18:00 -
[129] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Couple dozen threads an hour is making it hard for me to keep up with so here's where I am garnering so far.
*Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
I will agree these need to be fixed.
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
*Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux
I agree but a full disruption punishes pure blind luck of stray shots that can happen as well. I rather see a few tweaks instead such as cloak timer draining because of damage and longer lasting cloak scattering because of damage.
As for flux, I would like to see a massive chuck eaten out of the timer with it (scaled to the flux damage maybe?)
*Cloak Noise
Maybe for self sound its a bit too loud and out of balance but as a third person its balanced.
*Decloak to weapon swap speed
Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time.
*Cloak timer at prototype
80 seconds is an eternity waiting for it to recharge. I think a second variant of cloaks is warranted, something with 30 second timer across all tiers and faster cooldown efficiency.
*Cloaked hacking
I see no problems currently with this.
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus. While we could go after the tanking modules themselves that's going to effect ALL classes and that would get more messy than needed.
=Anything else did I miss?=
Will update points and discussion if new things are brought to my attention. I know with the 1.8 patch then 1.8 hotfix this week and the follow up tonight and possibly more on the way lots of crap flying around and my time is split between paying attention to you guys and working with fanfest build. My opinion on cloaks right now is not hardline and easily subject to change which is why I am striking up this conversation.
OT posts will not be tolerated. I know vehicle rebalancing just hit but I feel that there hasn't been enough time to adapt around it yet to see if more follow ups are needed or if they went overboard.
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet. Other balance issues are on the fire still but rather focus on this before we get too far away from 1.8 hotfix mood and far too deep into the next patch cycle.
Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
weapons yes ! vehicles no only vehicles bug id the rendering glitch and that been here its passed the mark of 690 m
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
dum dum dum dum dum ! yep its why its called a cloak ! 2nd when moving you can still be seen if your cloaked if been seeing them even 500 + away with my sniper and have kill 2 so far hard but not to hard .
*Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux
not true iv shot at and flux cloaks iv had the same done to me plus you can see if your hitting something not just by the red X but the fact you can see blood or shield flicks when hitting the cloaked player . how ever i dont think just because your hit your cloak should drop but it should reduce the time you have left being cloaked like 2 - 4% of max time per hit.
*Cloak Noise
its fine in fact keep it i want to see skill in the use of cloaks yes you cant here well guest what they cant see you well its a trade off !
*Decloak to weapon swap speed
is fine how it is but if you pull your weapon there should be a cool down timer for 3 secs be for going re-cloaking
but when it comes to firing i dont think we need a timer on de-cloaking to firing its fine how it is. i rely dont see how me being cloaked and then de-cloaking as im pulling my gun out and unloading is too fast here but the de-cloaking when using a weapon should have a cool down be for you can re-cloak .
*Cloak timer at prototype
80 is fine a good cloak-er knows when and when not to run the cloaks timer past 50% and even then its only fair i dont think you should spend the every moment in game cloaked the long cool down is the trade off and avd or pro i don't see any way to Q over the cool down. avd gots less run time but faster cool down fair pro longer run time longer cool down fair .
*Cloaked hacking
if your crying over this there's the door !  *DOOR*
look to some it up if your point is being hacked and you cant see the guy uses 1 or 2 nads to the point or RE to remove the hacker !
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
if that's the case just make it ezer to pick up hp mods on scan .
=Anything else did I miss?=
nope but why the hell is armor Nerfed and not shields ?
Yes i am a Undead Hell Wolf ... nice to meat you!
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
3509
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Posted - 2014.03.28 11:38:00 -
[130] - Quote
I skipped the last few pages but adding my opinion anyway.
The question was about cloaks but quickly turned to fitting HP buffer modules and I agree that is the majority of the issue here.
The time from decloak to attack is too quick. The animation hasn't completed before the attacker has fully engaged. I like the idea of slowly tweaking this upwards.
Flux being a hard counter to cloaking is a good idea and I run cloaks.
I would like to see HP buffer modules changed to a percentage instead of a hard value. Sentinels will benefit more and scouts less from the same module.
I'd like to see shield extenders drawback changed to increased scan profile and remove the recharge delay.
I'd like to see armor plates have an increased speed penalty again.
Fitting HP recovery modules should always have lower fitting reqs to buffer modules to discourage brick tanking. The ferroscale and reactive plates should have easier fitting reqs than the regular plates.
Finally, fix it so that the Minmatar are the fast recovery race. We have the worst defenses of all the suits and need to be good at one thing. Just drop the shield recharge delays across all Minmatar suits to be faster than the Caladari.
Bitter Vet // QA: Learn It, Love It, Do It // @ReesNoturana
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Paran Tadec
The Hetairoi
2095
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Posted - 2014.03.28 11:44:00 -
[131] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Fix the glitches. also, why should we go deaf when we have one on? I think it is a cute gimmick, but it's lame and disorienting to lose a sense of hearing. Why would that even happen? Also, the shimmer should be commensurate with your speed.
Once they are fixed, let's talk about changes.
First of all, you can not instantly shoot when you decloak. There is already about a second and a half delay when you switch to a weapon. The stamina like functionality is what makes it useful It is the perfect compromise to not being about to hold a weapon or equipment. This was a smart and elegant compromise, and it works. To have a cool down would mean you couldn't multi-task, and that would be annoying. Scouts are all about multi tasking.
Second, the timers are good. basic is 30s, ADV 60s, proto 80s. Not forever, and just enough to be tactically used. Basic cloak is garbage. Proto is too expensive to fit CPU/PG wise- but you can do it with some sacrifice.
Damage shouldn't screw with it at all. Presumably it is hardened underneath your shield and armor.
I could see a flux taking down a cloak outright based on tier- basic flux kills basic cloak, adv to adv, proto to proto. A basic flux shouldn't take out an ADV or proto cloak and so on.
Cloaks are not impossible to see or spot even at a long distance. Also, your reticle turns red as you sweep across an area. Once people figure this out, the QQ won't be as unfounded. Same goes for scrubs knifing and shooting and tossing REs while cloaked.
The fitting is good right now. Any more severe and it will be useless. As it is now, I can't speed tank and stealth tank my typical fit, It is one or the other.
A lot of this QQ is just for the QQ of it. Cotsy is particularly mock poutraging. Same for paradin(sp?). Both are the champions of nerfing it, yet it is woefully apparent their information is not based on personal usage, misunderstanding mechanics of it, and just missing the old glory days of the UP scout. Knifing, for example, outside of the glitch users, is much more difficult to pull off than shotgunning. I;d rather use knives, but they just aren't as viable.
It's a two fold comeuppance- first, we have competitive suits and EWAR- no one is used to it, and people's K/Ds are making them feel it. They need to adapt. The second part of that is scouts had to deal with UP suits for so long we are now like monsters with the new suits. or most. I am trying to **** around and try shotguns out again.. yikes! one good day and I was in la la land.. now the reality is setting in. so i'm not in beast mode yet, but i will be once I get my suits just right.
LOL, Ive played with cloak to check it out. Taking out 200k+isk pro logi suits with ohk shotgun before I can fully decloak. Its easy mode. YOU DONT NEED EASY MODE. These changes will make good scouts good, fotm scouts will be bad.
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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Paran Tadec
The Hetairoi
2095
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Posted - 2014.03.28 11:47:00 -
[132] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:
Finally, fix it so that the Minmatar are the fast recovery race. We have the worst defenses of all the suits and need to be good at one thing. Just drop the shield recharge delays across all Minmatar suits to be faster than the Caladari.
Have been saying this for a long time. And I still spec into min suits every time.
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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Mikey The Bandaid
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
202
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Posted - 2014.03.28 11:59:00 -
[133] - Quote
I dint see this idea yet in your OP...
My thoughts on a way to balance the cloak is to have it to go into cooldown after you decloak. Being able to decloak and instantly being able to cloak again if you miss your shot/shots is a little ridiculous. I'm fine with the hacking and sprinting while being cloaked, I'm also ok with damage not forcing you to decloak but there has to be something that prevents perma cloak lol. |
BlackWinter RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
79
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 12:40:00 -
[134] - Quote
A big part of the problem to me right now is the spam of the cloak. I have one point into cloaks and that's all I plan on putting into them. I currently run de cloak and kill, and then re cloak and repeat. There's really no necessity to go higher. Cloaking right now is labeled as a piece of equipment but isn't treated as such. It shouldn't get special treatment. Like other pieces of equipment give it a set number of uses before it disables completely. This would make investing in it worth while since higher tiers would get more uses along with duration, and also kill them spam of it. Make scouts pick and choose when to cloak and be smart about the use of it. As of this moment it's kinda of like having droplinks with infinite spawns or nanohives that never run out of ammo or reps. I also think if you mange to hit a scout with a flux grenade it should destroy his cloak just like any other piece of equipment.
All Cal Everything!
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
853
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 12:42:00 -
[135] - Quote
BlackWinter RND wrote:A big part of the problem to me right now is the spam of the cloak. I have one point into cloaks and that's all I plan on putting into them. I currently run de cloak and kill, and then re cloak and repeat. There's really no necessity to go higher. Cloaking right now is labeled as a piece of equipment but isn't treated as such. It shouldn't get special treatment. Like other pieces of equipment give it a set number of uses before it disables completely. This would make investing in it worth while since higher tiers would get more uses along with duration, and kill them spam of it. As of this moment it's kinda of like having droplinks with infinite spawns or nanohives that never run out of ammo or reps. I also think if you mange to hit a scout with a flux grenade it should destroy his cloak just like any other piece of equipment.
Scanner and reptool are equipment as well, and the cloak is pretty close to the scanner in how it works...maybe increasing the cooldown but make the skill give a bonus to cooldown could work... |
Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
1890
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 12:50:00 -
[136] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Mregomies wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
Actually it is quite easy to shoot cloaked mercs with sniper rifle. My personal best is 578m with Thale's in Bridge domination map. I use cloak with ck.0 scout when using REmotes at objektive. imo that cloak is balanced after those "cloaked knife kills" will be fixwd Wasn't using a sniper though. 100 meters is pretty for no ads.
It's hard to shoot with non-sniper weapons at 100m because our core aiming controls are poorly implemented. Aim Assist does not operate at that range and DUST's DS3 implementation is twitchy at low deflection. You can feel the same thing in Borderlands 2 with AA off at low deflection.
Prolly comes from using stock Unreal 3 tools to implement DS3 aiming.
By way of comparision, the twitchiness is not there in Bioshock Infinite, which is also Unreal 3.
My own personal measure of excellence for DS3 controls on the PS3 is Metro Last Light: those guys do beautiful work.
I support SP rollover.
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1286
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 12:53:00 -
[137] - Quote
I have been playing as a gal scout since 1.8 dropped and here is what I think about cloaks as far as balance goes (assuming all reported glitches are fixed)
- I am in favor of a flux depleting cloak timer or completely based on the meta of the flux grenade. It should be something along the lines of 50% or more for even level meta
- I think that the current brick tanking trade off is fine with scouts if the flux decloak is introduced. It would then be about fight or flight for the scout based upon their desired lows.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1286
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 12:56:00 -
[138] - Quote
BlackWinter RND wrote:A big part of the problem to me right now is the spam of the cloak. I have one point into cloaks and that's all I plan on putting into them. I currently run de cloak and kill, and then re cloak and repeat. There's really no necessity to go higher. Cloaking right now is labeled as a piece of equipment but isn't treated as such. It shouldn't get special treatment. Like other pieces of equipment give it a set number of uses before it disables completely. This would make investing in it worth while since higher tiers would get more uses along with duration, and also kill them spam of it. Make scouts pick and choose when to cloak and be smart about the use of it. As of this moment it's kinda of like having droplinks with infinite spawns or nanohives that never run out of ammo or reps. I also think if you mange to hit a scout with a flux grenade it should destroy his cloak just like any other piece of equipment.
The cloak is more classified as an 'active module' than a piece of deployable equipment. As stated, it falls under the same category as the active scanner, repair tool or nanite injector. I do agree that a flux should knock out its functionality though which would require to wait for cooldown.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
|
Krad Gunnerson
The Jita Martyr's Brigade
18
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 13:03:00 -
[139] - Quote
Just saw this thread so I will post what I put in another thread of my own here. To stop brick tanking the cloaking device when equipped should give a -25% to damage resistance, meaning people shooting at you are dealing 25% more damage. When the cloaking device is activated you get -50% damage resistance, meaning the person shooting at you gets 50% more damage.
This both prevents brick tanking clockers and give a reward to those who shoot is while cloaked. |
Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
Top Men.
1215
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 13:17:00 -
[140] - Quote
Krad Gunnerson wrote:Just saw this thread so I will post what I put in another thread of my own here. To stop brick tanking the cloaking device when equipped should give a -25% to damage resistance, meaning people shooting at you are dealing 25% more damage. When the cloaking device is activated you get -50% damage resistance, meaning the person shooting at you gets 50% more damage.
This both prevents brick tanking clockers and give a reward to those who shoot is while cloaked.
Uh, what? If anything that would encourage more people to brick tank, since cloaking without doing so means you'd die at a sneeze. My E-WAR cloak fits typically have 300-400 EHP, so you're halving that to 150-200 EHP when I am cloaked? How does that make sense?
I think the only real change needed to the cloak is removing the ability to perform "decloak" actions other than pushing the FIRE button. So no more switching weapons then shooting, throwing grenades, or melee-ing to deactivate the cloak, allowing you to perform said actions while the cloak is still wearing off.
This means that if you decloak in front of someone with the intent of shooting him in the face, he will see you materialize before you get the shot off. You would need to manually decloak then use the quick-switch and fire. Therefore the only "surprise" attacks you could consistently win are those done from the back, which is how a scout should work. |
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Krom Ganesh
Nos Nothi
1469
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 13:18:00 -
[141] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus. While we could go after the tanking modules themselves that's going to effect ALL classes and that would get more messy than needed.
Is the problem really that someone using the cloak is brick tanked? Or is it just brick tanking in general?
There is absolutely no downside to brick tanking at the moment and has been a staple method of combat for some time now. What needs to be done before any premature modification of scouts or the cloak is to add some downside to brick tanking.
How about adding penalties for fitting both shield extenders and armor plates? For example, using both tank mods causes decreased shield regen and some other penalty to the effectiveness of the armor plates. Nothing too big, but enough for brick tanking to actually have a disadvantage. This shouldn't be applicable to heavies though (and perhaps reduced on matari suits since they are the dual tanking race). |
Gauder Berwyck
Deadly Blue Dots
327
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 13:25:00 -
[142] - Quote
Brick Tanking - Logically, brick tanking shouldn't affect scanning. A metal plate with a current running through it should show up less on a scanner than the shields, in my opinion. But, shields are under powered compared to armour, so another nail in the coffin for the shields if they do it like that.
Shimmer when cloaked - Nearly spot on, but it needs just a TAD more shimmer. Not too much though, or cloaks risk getting under powered quickly.
I am fine with the cloak as it is, I can overcome it. But yeah, just a hint of more shimmer would be nice. |
Yan Darn
Science For Death
423
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:20:00 -
[143] - Quote
Sana Rayya wrote:Krad Gunnerson wrote:Just saw this thread so I will post what I put in another thread of my own here. To stop brick tanking the cloaking device when equipped should give a -25% to damage resistance, meaning people shooting at you are dealing 25% more damage. When the cloaking device is activated you get -50% damage resistance, meaning the person shooting at you gets 50% more damage.
This both prevents brick tanking clockers and give a reward to those who shoot is while cloaked. Uh, what? If anything that would encourage more people to brick tank, since cloaking without doing so means you'd die at a sneeze. My E-WAR cloak fits typically have 300-400 EHP, so you're halving that to 150-200 EHP when I am cloaked? How does that make sense? I think the only real change needed to the cloak is removing the ability to perform "decloak" actions other than pushing the FIRE button. So no more switching weapons then shooting, throwing grenades, or melee-ing to deactivate the cloak, allowing you to perform said actions while the cloak is still wearing off. This means that if you decloak in front of someone with the intent of shooting him in the face, he will see you materialize before you get the shot off. You would need to manually decloak then use the quick-switch and fire. Therefore the only "surprise" attacks you could consistently win are those done from the back, which is how a scout should work.
This is the simplest and most effective solution I've seen. Adding a specific timer seems uneccesary when there is already a delay when you manually deactivate.
On that note. Is it possible to have a 'shortcut' activation like injectors? The problem I have in trying to use them defensively is that it's finicky to actually switch to (I'm sure logis are  right now...).
Manual deactivation and hot key activation would make it more like a smoke bomb in practice. Which I think is closer to what everyone wants than the current assassination cloak...
The Ghost of Bravo
|
NAV HIV
The Generals
General Tso's Alliance
1271
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:28:00 -
[144] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Couple dozen threads an hour is making it hard for me to keep up with so here's where I am garnering so far.
*Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
I will agree these need to be fixed.
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
*Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux
I agree but a full disruption punishes pure blind luck of stray shots that can happen as well. I rather see a few tweaks instead such as cloak timer draining because of damage and longer lasting cloak scattering because of damage.
As for flux, I would like to see a massive chuck eaten out of the timer with it (scaled to the flux damage maybe?)
*Cloak Noise
Maybe for self sound its a bit too loud and out of balance but as a third person its balanced.
*Decloak to weapon swap speed
Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time.
*Cloak timer at prototype
80 seconds is an eternity waiting for it to recharge. I think a second variant of cloaks is warranted, something with 30 second timer across all tiers and faster cooldown efficiency.
*Cloaked hacking
I see no problems currently with this.
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus. While we could go after the tanking modules themselves that's going to effect ALL classes and that would get more messy than needed.
=Anything else did I miss?=
Will update points and discussion if new things are brought to my attention. I know with the 1.8 patch then 1.8 hotfix this week and the follow up tonight and possibly more on the way lots of crap flying around and my time is split between paying attention to you guys and working with fanfest build. My opinion on cloaks right now is not hardline and easily subject to change which is why I am striking up this conversation.
OT posts will not be tolerated. I know vehicle rebalancing just hit but I feel that there hasn't been enough time to adapt around it yet to see if more follow ups are needed or if they went overboard.
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet. Other balance issues are on the fire still but rather focus on this before we get too far away from 1.8 hotfix mood and far too deep into the next patch cycle.
Cloaking is great when it is working as intended... Currently the bugs and glitches are making it a bit annoying...
- Fix the bug where it allows a cloaked scout to fire/swap weapon while remaining cloaked... This should fix the sudden death by Cloaked scout
- Brick tanking is personal choice i believe... Can't do it in a Cal scout and min scout, High slots are much more useful with the Precision Enhancer.Low slot are used mostly for speed and dampening... It's the Gal scout that allows the brick tanking.. Trying to fix that by fixing Modules would punish every other suit... May be give gal scout a armor plate stacking penalty or something
- Cloak Noise = it's alright
- Cloaked hacking = it's kinda the purpose of cloaking
- Cloaks are not that hard to notice if a player is focused
Besides, once people know i'm there, i usually get mowed down very easily... Have about 400+ EHP on proto scout. So it's not very difficult to kill it... |
Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
35
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:33:00 -
[145] - Quote
Cloaks are nowhere near as powerful as I thought they would be and as a result I think they are quite balanced. Initially I used one assuming I would be able to move past people's field of vision without being spotted, but it doesn't work like that and I died a lot. I have discovered I need to play the same way I did in 1.7 but with the cloak activated I am less likely to be spotted at a distance in someone's peripheral vision. Somebody glancing in my direction as I am moving round at a distance for a flank or between objectives won't get the red dot on the radar like before so probably won't see me.
I still have to attack people from the rear as before, so really the cloak hasn't had much affect on my chances of success in an engagement, I still need to "play smart". At the moment I am doing worse with my scout than in 1.7, though I suspect that will change when i'm more used to things.
Regarding "brick tanking" and scout suits, the problem may be that Gallente scouts get effectively 3 free low slot modules, freeing up space for plates. If a Gallente scout had to fit a repper, a range amplifier and a profile dampener they couldn't fit 850 odd hp. I'm not saying remove all their bonuses, maybe swap the dampening one for ion pistol damage or something. Probably too late for that though. I don't think Caldari are too bad since their bonuses are split between high and low slots and are mainly for countering scouts anyway. |
Krom Ganesh
Nos Nothi
1471
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:34:00 -
[146] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:On that note. Is it possible to have a 'shortcut' activation like injectors? The problem I have in trying to use them defensively is that it's finicky to actually switch to (I'm sure logis are
This would be so nice to have but let it benefit everyone.
Let us change what the up and down D-pad buttons do. If I can set them to switch to a specific equipment slot, the equipment wheel would be far less of an annoyance. |
pseudosnipre
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
650
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:37:00 -
[147] - Quote
I run no dampening and have yet to be scanned, which leads me to the conclusion that NOBODY is running proto scans. Everyone just skilled into proto scout and the playerbase is still trying to use adv scans to counter them...
Today is the sort of day where the sun only comes up to humiliate you.
BitterVet the turkey says GOML GOML GOML
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2283
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:37:00 -
[148] - Quote
Personally I think the noise is a little too quiet.
As for weapon switching you could also
Decloak faster, or expend energy if firing before the cloak finishes decloaking.
So you have to voluntarily wait for the cloak to finish or risk not being able to cloak up again for a long time.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
35
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:41:00 -
[149] - Quote
I quite like the idea of flux grenades disabling cloaks. Can't imagine it having much real effect on the game but it's a nice idea and would be great if it appeases some of the QQ.
In general I think it's probably best to wait and see what changes will be made to assault suits and scanners (if any) before making changes to scouts/cloaks. |
Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
Top Men.
1222
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:43:00 -
[150] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:I quite like the idea of flux grenade disabling cloaks. Can't imagine it having much real effect on the game but it's a nice idea and would be great if it appeases some of the QQ.
In general I think it's probably best to wait and see what changes will be made to assault suits and scanners (if any) before making changes to scouts/cloaks.
Honestly I've been tagged by a flux maybe once while cloaked? I think it's just for the paranoid people who flux null cannons thinking that cloaked scouts are hiding inside. |
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
724
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Posted - 2014.03.28 15:10:00 -
[151] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ares 514 wrote:
Yes, so why is the CPM finally paying attention to this, a minor imbalance at best, while leaving other far larger issues broken for so long? This is an issue for me.
FYI, CR was reduced with other weapons but it still needs fixing since it was the most OP of them all. The armour shield % are imbalanced relative to other weapons.
You can blame takario from red star why I would like to avoid talking about vehicles in general. Most other issues have been talked about just pending action now. Also like I said the devs are in a hot fixing mood might be able to get something squeezed in before we have to wait until next code patch (which nobody has any idea when that will be) So I don't want the new toys with problems to be old toys with long standing problems come around next code integration. As for generally about cloaks They're pretty balanced mechanic wise, slightly imperfect but pretty close to it. While this cloak is most similar to planetside 2's I find ours a bit more balanced than theirs consider our scouts CAN have shotguns and thiers can't. Meta wise they seem broken. I find it okay for a commando to be cloaking but scouts who fit it are nearly as unhampered by it as a scout who does not cloak the only thing they give up is 1 equipment slot and to a scout that is non issue as the cloak replaces a large number of equipment in its own way. There are rough spots overall just wondering which ones need to be polished up a bit where a simple half second change can literally destroy the cloak or make it op. So this has to be delicate. My opinion overall at this very moment about cloaks is quite malleable; I don't have any real hard lines to not cross right now outside of just being a bit too outrageous on the idea.
Well I hope next time you can harass CCP with issues that are so broken they frustrate the player base day after day. Now to cloaks, IMO I think their okay. If you really want to make fluxes decloack people I'm fine with it, don't think it's that necessary though.
With regards to the scout not sacrificing much CPU/PG for a cloak I really disagree. It takes a decent amount equal to other equipment for everyone else and we sacrifice our role bonus. Logis get 25 % to ALL equipment, heavys get some wicked resistances etc... So if you take that into consideration I think your wrong.
...
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Duke Noobiam
Chatelain Rapid Response
Gallente Federation
45
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Posted - 2014.03.28 15:15:00 -
[152] - Quote
Only thing I think REALLY needs to be fixed is the ability to shoot while cloaked....
There has to be a delay in changing from the cloak to a weapon in order to ensure you are visible before you can shoot.
When the red river runs, take the dirt road.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
1047
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Posted - 2014.03.28 15:22:00 -
[153] - Quote
Definitely there needs to be no profile bonus for activating a cloak. You should sacrifice to get under scans, passive or otherwise.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
Fixed link.
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Zaaeed Massani
RisingSuns
63
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Posted - 2014.03.28 15:29:00 -
[154] - Quote
LEHON Xeon wrote:Don't know if anyone else is having the problem, but when I use a cloak I cannot do anything while in it except move. I can't swap to a weapon or even equipment without instantly uncloaking. Even when swapping to a gun, it seems I can get a round or two off before I become fully visible, but if I use anything else like an RE it deactivates. I can't even just hold the RE and it'll turn off.
Working as intended. |
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1502
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 15:33:00 -
[155] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ares 514 wrote:
Yes, so why is the CPM finally paying attention to this, a minor imbalance at best, while leaving other far larger issues broken for so long? This is an issue for me.
FYI, CR was reduced with other weapons but it still needs fixing since it was the most OP of them all. The armour shield % are imbalanced relative to other weapons.
You can blame takario from red star why I would like to avoid talking about vehicles in general. Most other issues have been talked about just pending action now. Also like I said the devs are in a hot fixing mood might be able to get something squeezed in before we have to wait until next code patch (which nobody has any idea when that will be) So I don't want the new toys with problems to be old toys with long standing problems come around next code integration. As for generally about cloaks They're pretty balanced mechanic wise, slightly imperfect but pretty close to it. While this cloak is most similar to planetside 2's I find ours a bit more balanced than theirs consider our scouts CAN have shotguns and thiers can't. Meta wise they seem broken. I find it okay for a commando to be cloaking but scouts who fit it are nearly as unhampered by it as a scout who does not cloak the only thing they give up is 1 equipment slot and to a scout that is non issue as the cloak replaces a large number of equipment in its own way. There are rough spots overall just wondering which ones need to be polished up a bit where a simple half second change can literally destroy the cloak or make it op. So this has to be delicate. My opinion overall at this very moment about cloaks is quite malleable; I don't have any real hard lines to not cross right now outside of just being a bit too outrageous on the idea.
in planetside the cloak is a bit balanced by ten second on and no OHK instakilled weapon
interesting that here the cloak is active for much longer and with a OHK instakilled weapon and you find this balanced?
you find four campers with harrypotter villa at an objectives whose "gungame" is hide in corners and then shoot to the back for a OHK no risk shot a balanced game?
and here i was thinking redline sniping was not able to get worse.....lol.
Golfclap CCP you fixed the redline sniping problem by having them all sniping with a shotgun.....lol.
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
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Wis Legend
Astroya Guard
General Tso's Alliance
9
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Posted - 2014.03.28 15:36:00 -
[156] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:*Cloak timer at prototype
80 seconds is an eternity waiting for it to recharge. I think a second variant of cloaks is warranted, something with 30 second timer across all tiers and faster cooldown efficiency.
Lol... cloak is not already too cheated, great idea !!! |
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1502
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 15:42:00 -
[157] - Quote
ryo sayo mio wrote:why is this game becoming easy mode? first AA than scanners aka wall hack and now cloaks
I have no idea?
Each patch brings more easy mode and its getting tiresome.
Hopefully it gets fixed ?
Going to replay Fallout 3 and Tales of Graces.
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
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CHANCEtheChAn
0uter.Heaven
22
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Posted - 2014.03.28 17:57:00 -
[158] - Quote
The problem with scouts (mainly ck.0 and gk.0) PLEASE READ AS IT MIGHT MAKE SENSE TO YOU
I love scouts this build. I do not love their bonuses
Scouts have had problems being very effective the last 6 months or so in dust in which they were always a threat, and 1.8 has refined them with extra highs and lows, HP, equipment slot, and to top it all off bonuses which I think have made the scout suit the new assault suit.
Then you add the cloak.
My god.
Thanks to the caldari light and gallente light bonuses, scanners are no longer required as scouts have sucha high scanning range/and low precision that with scan range at lv5, and precision at whatever it seems with the scouts current base values, your effectively giving caldari/gallente scouts a 35 meter perm scan range with cald being able to see every suit in the game at that radius, except gal scout. I mean its pretty bad when your friends all say "why are you running scans anymore? Its useless, just look at our scout passive scans."
Which means CCP effectively gave extra highs and lows to scouts, while giving them and extra equipment slot, and then gave them all bonuses of modules which goes into those extra slots.... ( not to include Amarr and Minmitar scout in here as I believe their bonuses are balanced"
A. You essentially gave the first two scouts a full time 360, short range scanner of 35 meters (eliminating the need for a scanner in the equipment slot)
B. You added a basic range amp which takes up a low slot
C. You added a complex profile damp to gal scout which would normally take a low slot which makes them auto perm invisible to any proto scanner besides 1
D. Cal scout has a precision enhancer that would normally take up a high slot but instead its 25% enhance can't even be bough in the store due to the complex precision enhancer being only a bonus 20%
Thus when you think of cal scout and gal scout, you can think of them with
Cal scout
- 5 highs with a perm BEYOND COMPLEX precision enhancer
- 3 lows with a perm basic range amplifier
- 3 equipment slots with a perm non-cooldown half range vehicle scanner
Gal scout
- 2 highs
- 6 lows with a perm basic range amp and a perm complex profile damp
- 3 equipment slots with a perm non-cool down half range vehicle scanner
I believe this is broken as these bonuses give these two scouts (The most two prominently seen scouts in the game) module slot bonuses while every other single bonus in the game to any suit is skill based and only provide bonuses to specific things(aka commando only giving you attack bonuses to one type of weapon, logi only one type of equipment) while these bonuses give you the ability to see every suit in the game or hide from every suit in the game and see most of every suit besides scouts. This would be okay if these bonuses allowed just the scouts to see their scans, but no, it allows everyone on your team to see these passive scans.
I find it right in real life if scouts got these these bonuses as they are recon BUT in dust the way modules are set up, you are freeing up slots on the low end for gal scout allowing them to armor tank more
And are freeing up module slots on the low AND high end of cal scouts allowing them to armor and shield tank more
Everyone is complaining about tanked out scouts and this is the reason why, as amarr and minmitar have to fill up their slots to get these bonuses, they cannot tank as much, and min usually fills their suits with codebreakers or kinetic Kat's anyways making them fast and tactile at taking objectives and laying equipment in enemy territory, and Amarr can effectively tank for say going from one side of the city to the other with their stamina bonus or covering outside points. BUT they will not see you coming from 40 meters away on their minimap and won't be able to move as fast as other tanked out scouts to evade you or overtake you. WHICH IS BALANCED at least in a way as you can still scan these suits unless they fill up their valuable slots with appropriate modules taking away their overall effectiveness. (Oh you mean how scouts used to be, as they filled up their high and lows with appropriate gear for their roles? Like damps against scans, or codebreakers for hack speed, or range enhancements for recon. Allowing them not to tank but to simply to specific roles.)
And really CCP? 25% bonus to nova knife damage? Like really? Why not just give minmitar a 1% **** increase as their second bonus and call it a day.
CCP trying to force the use of one its most underused weapons in the game. Why not add %50 plasma cannon damage while your at it?
Move knives will never be a PC viable or even pub viable weapon ever I don't believe
Hmmm. The Meta is strong with this one...
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NextDark Knight
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
331
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 18:14:00 -
[159] - Quote
Sorry , I don't agree with most of what your saying and your defiantly not representing my view on the cloak.
Your idea of the flux draining the cloak isn't needed cause there are already better counters you just need to find them.
I would like to see the bugs fixed as soon as possible then proper data can be collected once the novelty factor wears off.
Forge Changes needed Officer Splash 3.0, Proto 2.7 Advanced 2.5 Standard 2.1.
Original ROF needs to return!
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
2396
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 18:44:00 -
[160] - Quote
The only issue i have with cloak atm is that you can swap to weapon far too quickly. I would like to see an animation where the user actually turns it off my hitting the button on their arm like they do to turn it on. The exact same animation would probably suffice to balance the use of cloaks.
In 1.7 there was a noise when someone decloaked which was nice, I haven't really heard it since? It would be nice if there was a sound for decloaking, even if its a fairly light sound.
Other than that I haven't found cloaking to be a terrible thing. |
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Smooth Assassin
Stardust Incorporation
IMMORTAL REGIME
1102
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 18:48:00 -
[161] - Quote
Bricked tanked assault scouts with cloaks has to go.
Assassination is my thing.
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Ivan Avogadro
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
945
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 18:49:00 -
[162] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:The only issue i have with cloak atm is that you can swap to weapon far too quickly. I would like to see an animation where the user actually turns it off my hitting the button on their arm like they do to turn it on. The exact same animation would probably suffice to balance the use of cloaks.
In 1.7 there was a noise when someone decloaked which was nice, I haven't really heard it since? It would be nice if there was a sound for decloaking, even if its a fairly light sound.
Other than that I haven't found cloaking to be a terrible thing.
But you can also see it quite easily. Nobody is really invisible when using it, even if that's the public opinion. I have been killed in cloak while standing perfectly still, from about 20m out. I have also killed people standing still while cloaked. If the invisibility were stronger, or if the blue wispy was a lot more subtle, then make the reequip take longer. As it stands, you should probably just play cloak as if it were a temporary dampener, and assume people can still see you.
As for brick tanking, they could just add stacking penalties to defense mods. Just about every other mod gets stacking penalties anyway. That would keep most people from putting more than 2 on, just because of the cost per benefit.
Hail Bacon
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Villanor Aquarius
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
Top Men.
167
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Posted - 2014.03.28 19:09:00 -
[163] - Quote
In my thoughts the solution to brick tanking is three-fold.
1. Get utility mods in the highs and damage mods in the lows, lows should be mobility increasers and damage, highs should be utility and speed.
2. The second part is make HP modules more effective per slot while also significantly increasing their fitting cost. This makes the same tank possible with fewer slots. But makes it impossible to fill every slot with raw HP. Similarly the fitting costs should be balanced where HP takes PG and recovery/resistance takes CPU.
3. Reduce the fitting costs of non HP/Recovery modules. Hacking mods should be super easy to fit. Damage mods should take minimal (1) pg but a chunk of CPU. Dampening, precision amps, range all should be inexpensive to fit.
This approach makes it impossible to fit all your slots with HP due to too little PG. Similarly just stacking recovery is impossible as you'll run out of CPU. Filling every slot with a mix of both is only achievable if you use lower meta level than your suit due to fitting costs. The values of modules should be balanced around this to keep the EHP where CCP wants.
At this point suits will tank the way they want to, likely with a mix of HP and recovery and with the open slot or several left over the options come down to low level survivability mods or utility mods. This is very similar to how it works in eve and that would work here as well. Making a significant difference between fitting costs of tank and utility makes filling every slot with tank not possible while still allowing you to fill your suit with meaningful modules.
Edit: In terms of brick tanked scouts with cloaks just drop their CPU and PG a little bit. Or significantly drop it but give them further fitting bonuses such as a flat scout class reduction to scanning modules fitting costs, or flat bonus to fitting cost of mobility modules. This couple with significant CPU/PG nerf would leave them capable of doing their jobs without being able to just plug every slot with bricks. |
IgniteableAura
Pro Hic Immortalis
768
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 19:19:00 -
[164] - Quote
Cloak is nearly perfect as is except the bugs
Adding any sort of disruption to the cloak will cause people to stop using it. A lucky tossed flux nade shouldn't do anything but ruin a scouts shields. Creating a new grenade to do so would be fine, but you shouldn't be getting two things for one grenade.
Weapon swap speed increases would just make it more cumbersome to use the cloak. It actually wouldn't probably effect ambush style tactics regardless of how long the swap length is....it would only effect the ability of scouts to "strike back" if someone starts shooting them while cloaked. Perhaps a "delay" should only happen when they are taking damage.
PHI Recruitment
or PHIsh Tank in game
Youtube
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Villanor Aquarius
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
Top Men.
167
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Posted - 2014.03.28 19:22:00 -
[165] - Quote
I think switching to a weapon or equipment should be possible while cloaked but there should be a delay of perhaps 0.5 seconds from pulling the trigger before your equipment/weapon activates.
During this time a decloak animation plays. |
CHANCEtheChAn
0uter.Heaven
23
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Posted - 2014.03.28 19:31:00 -
[166] - Quote
THE PROBLEMS with cloaks
that CCP can actually fix with simple code and numerical value changes. What you guys are saying in uses Of flux and such and shimmering when hit by bullets is coding that requires testing and as you all know, CCP is bad with coding at all levels and if its intensive will wait an entire patch to fix it when it needs a fix now.
Cloaks are hard to track and sometimes see
Seeing a cloaked suit running across a dark hill in the middle of nowhere is pretty obvious to see at any range
Yet a cloaked suit in front of me whenI'm in the daylight still can run right past me with little effort and me not see a thing. This is because the lighting effect of the cloak is too light blue, when it should be a darker color.
And no this is not my brightness of anything of that factor as friends specifically ask me to bring over my ps3Dtv over when I go visit them to play their games on because its one of the best looking monitors around and I have fine tuned the options on the monitor to be thus good for every game that is played on it.
I have my brightness in game specifically tuned to my moniter for best looking gameplay and yet sometimes a cloak is clear as day halfway across the map and is sometimes invisible right in front of my due to background, foregrounds, and sun lighting.
The main times I curse at dust now is when I have a scout in my crosshairs cloaked, and im so putting down the DPs, just for him to move in front of a brightly lit wall and me never to see him again, and good look scanning for him.
This makes cloak tracking preposterous and nerve racking
This can easily be solved by making the cloak a little bit darker in color shimmers so it can be seen in light and dark environments.
I'm definitely not turning down the brightness on my game and tarnish the already mediocre graphical quality of Dust just to see a piece of equipment and neither should you.
- make cloak shimmers darker,not a royal blue per say, but something a tad bit darker if this is too much add less shimmers but darker.
Cloaks are completely invisible while the user sits still.
Puuuulllllease. Really? You mean a scout can sit next to an obj COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY INVISIBLE with REs, and or a shotgun/nova knives? And no one at CCP thought this a problem? LIke no one in the room stood up and was like "um, yeah like this MAY be a problem for some OP cqc weapons and equipment".
- Take your 3D shimmer model and take all your shimmers down to about 10-25% for sitting still so that we can still see idle cloaked players, while still making them viably invisible to anyone not careful
Cloaks decrease your suits scan profile...WUT?
So your saying that cloaks can not only make you invisiblewhile not moving, BUT also at the basic to proto level, give you an extra complex profile dampener? So this AND that?
No no no CCP no no.
Your equipment can't do this AND that.
Your scanner can't scan AND deploy a portable rocket turret.
Your RE's can't blow up a tank AND hack Bravo.
Your Repair tool can't repair Armor AND shields (at least not yet wink wink CCP)
Your uplink can't respawn clones AND provide ammo
The only two equipment that can do this AND that are nanohives and nanite injectors
In which nanite injectors are broken so their use is mainly invalid as they revive a clone AND health but bodies dissapear, half the time the auto inject doesn't work, you can never find where someone died, etc etc.
And the second being the nanohive that gives ammo AND repairs armor and nearly broke DUST all to **** with slayer logo bonanzas. (Which I think should really just give you ammo this way the only way to get armor back effectively is by switching at a supply depot which makes them more valuable and more of a priority target than just being there and occasional person running past for a quick made or two, and repair tools which will bring back the logis of old like chromosome where all logis had a rep tool and where logis were thought of to be the glue that held a team together and in max condition like a healer should while logis of now are thought of assaults with more equipment.)
This means that you are breaking DUST again with a cloak making you invisible AND more resistant to scans
Honestly a cloak is an equipment that surrounds the body with an image that allows outsiders to see right through a person. And that cloak emmits and electronic field around a person which you WOULD THINK means that that person would have a higher scan signature but SOMEHOW CCP decided it was a good idea to include in the description that the cloak "Absorbs electromagnetic emissions AND AND AND manipulates light." Making it able to make you invisible AND reduce your scan profile. No equipment should have AND in it.
1 equipment, 1 use
AND breaks things.
AND ruins dust.
Dropsuit scan dampening is already a skill, a bonus to gal scout, AND can be fit into your low slot.
1.7 was scanner OP. So much so I specced into it as an assault.
1.8 Is nerf scan time, nerf scan look around, nerf scan recharge, AND Nerf scan with equipment like this so now the scanner is almost useless, plus buff scouts to be mid range perma scans. Another example of over-nerfing. So much so I feel like I need my sp back now for the trouble. So useless most of the people I know have switched from scanner to other equipment, so have I.
-Cloaks should not give profile dampening, if anything give more suit profile. Change dampening from +25% to 0% or -25%
Hmmm. The Meta is strong with this one...
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Samantha Hunyz
G.R.A.V.E
INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
89
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 19:35:00 -
[167] - Quote
The glitch in question is a manufactured glitch used to exploit shooting while cloaked. This is the very definition of cheating. I can understand using dirty tactics, using unfair equipment/suit/ highground to give you an edge to the game. This howevor, is cheating, and serious consequences need to be put into effect. Shooting while cloaked is not intended nor wanted by CCP. To get your cloak to perform in this manner steps are taken by the player purpously for the benifit of sidestepping CCPs rules of use for the cloak. At a least temporary bans should be put in place to abusers.
I know this is New Eden and we adapt or die. But if CCP allows players to exploit/cheat their game with no consequences, they will continue to do so. This will drive away a fair amount of players that allows players to exploit/cheat to win, has no counter other than cheating yourself. This would as just encourage those that exploit/glitch will continue to actively hunt and find new cheats to use.
When I look down my scope, all I see are dead people.
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low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Dirt Nap Squad.
1418
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Posted - 2014.03.28 19:49:00 -
[168] - Quote
there will certainly be a learning curve with the cloaks, and the new scouts. I don't think anything needs to be changed for a month or so, just to let the playerbase adjust.
putting a decloak delay on anything that's not a scout makes sense. but it makes no sense to put a cloak on anything but a scout from a sig radius standpoint.
if you really have scout problems then your gallente logi and your caldari scout are the way to solve them, in my estimation.
I've got no problem finding cloaked scouts if i'm looking for them.
if i'm not looking for them, then i'm suicidal.
eatsbabies cienfuegos
steward of the renegade alliance.
|
Fire of Prometheus
Alpha Response Command
4090
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 19:49:00 -
[169] - Quote
The only issue is the cloak glitches.
Brick tanked scout means a scanner can find you and makes the cloak useless.
Everything else is fine......
This commando went on a diet to become a scout 
Fare well my commando's fist of god o7
Patron saint of commandos
Ck.0-scout, commando // ak.0- logi (commando soonTM)
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CHANCEtheChAn
0uter.Heaven
24
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Posted - 2014.03.28 19:51:00 -
[170] - Quote
CLOAK ISSUES CONTINUED
uncloak and cloak, uncloak and cloak, uncloack and cloak...OMG
Really.
Really really?
The ONLY drawback with this is you have to have %50 of your charge left to go back cloaked.
So let's see, enemies in range on passive e scans. Cloak with basic cloak. Wait 5 seconds, unlcloak on enemies with 5 second max firefight. Immediately recloak and become completely invisible again.
Enemies come 3 seconds later uncloak, 8 second firefight, immediately cloak and run cause reinforcements are on the way, or to get in better position for attack.
You can do this all day with a basic cloak, much more not even worry about recloak times on an advanced or proto cloak.
Let me give you a real worE scenario
Yesterday during PC I was in my new Cal heavy suit spawning on objective E of the bridge map with A, E, and D on outside and B/C inside the city. I spawned in the CRU at enemy controlled Echo. As soon as I spawned in, two cloaked Cal scouts sitting ON TOP OF E cargo hub spotted me on their passive scans while being cloaked, my logi in front of E had proto scanned then hub and reported no enemy precense there (due to the cloak giving a %25 scan profile reduction) So I turned to go hack and protect E when I heard a noise behind me, I turned to see nothing on the steps behind me. Little did I know there are two cloaked cal scouts idle in front of me staring at me and my deadly HMG. I then turned back to E just to be moved down from behind and killed in 2 seconds. The scouts then cloaked up again and ran to the cargo hubs laders. They then climbed cloaked up the ladders, and even though they were shimmering, I had a friendly proto sniper at Alpha looking at the ladders from Alpha and could not see the two cloaked cal scouts against the sky lit background. The scouts then uncloaked 8 seconds later as a friendly dropshit landed on top of the cargo hub carrying a speed hack logi. The scouts then ganged the logi, and then went back to cloak. Meanwhile my original logi had hacked echo with tank support and began to run to the other side of the hub with ladders to climb up. The scouts passively picked up my logi on scans, allowing one to jump down behind the logi and one to stay up top so they could both uncloak and gank my logi, just to cloak again. I then spawned on the cru just to have the cal scouts pick me up on scans AGAIN and both drop down to sit still invisible for about 3 seconds for me to run under the cargo hub just for them to watch me run right past them, then gnk me in the back again. They stayed uncloaked for about 5 seconds, then WITH MY TANK STILL ON E cloaked again and quick hacked E with the tank shooting into E, hacked it, then ran away still cloaked just to resecure the cru.
THIS IS THE POWER OF THE CLOAK
It is in fact too much power for only one suit (scouts) to be able to weild, as it has nearly no shortcomings at all.
And all this was probably just done with an advanced cloak.
**** all over me if it was a proto cloak.
Scouts got a HUGE buff in 1.8
So much it pretty much made assault class useless
Now they get a HUGE equipment buff basically only they can fit.
-Make cloaks to where they are either on a small cool down like a scanner once uncloaked or two uses no matter how much of your cloak is left makes the cloak go into a full regen mode from 0 and needs 50% to come back up
Sorry my posts are so long but they needed to be to illustrate the power and overpowerdness of these cloaks.
These are my opinions based on easy code fixes that could be applied to cloaks in a hotfix. It is mainly numerical changes where it doesn't require remodeling or making new coding or anything like that. Its simple numerical changes that can easily be applied.
Hmmm. The Meta is strong with this one...
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Luna Angelo
We Who Walk Alone
940
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Posted - 2014.03.28 19:52:00 -
[171] - Quote
I've noticed that cloaks have made people paranoid. They turn a corner and open fire, looking for a flash of blue or a hit marker. What's sad is I'm usually the other way and take them out anyways. They then send me mail, calling hax, when I was just in the right place at the right time.
And yes, I run cloaks, so I'm one of the reasons they ARE paranoid.
I don't need luck, I have a cloak.
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
CEO of We Who Walk Alone
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Zahle Undt
Bullet Cluster
1151
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Posted - 2014.03.28 19:55:00 -
[172] - Quote
I haven't run my scout a lot yet, but I seem to never run my adv. cloak down all the way so I pretty much always have it available. I think decloaking should instantly decrease your cloaking energy by 25-50%
Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
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Bethhy
Ancient Exiles.
Dirt Nap Squad.
1545
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Posted - 2014.03.28 20:04:00 -
[173] - Quote
De-Cloaking Animation needs to be fixed. As much fun as it is.
Shimmering needs tweaking. Full shimmer for Sprinting, Less Shimmer for walking... And Standing still Shimmer for crouch walking. Cloak needs to reward stealthy activities.
People not being able to see the cloak.. Is more Due to it not being a main feature offered in a Majority of FPS games.
Players from Crysis are already picking cloakers out like a sore thumb... Even stationary camping ones.
After 2-3 weeks players will start knowing exactly what to look for... And the run spots, Hide spots... and learn the corners of the maps scouts could be waiting for them.
Stray bullets On the battlefield are everywhere... If damage altered the cloak in anyway it would render the entire item so situational, it would obsolete it. Where I would love to see the cloak become a balance point and staple of DUST. And could be a very unique successful mechanic, That Future developers in the field would refer too.
-With more performance increases to DUST 514.. with consistent frame rates and Server/client updates while partaking in full 16 vs 16 gunfights of players from all over the world..., Will only improve peoples ability to use and counter the Cloaking device. |
Heimdallr69
Heaven's Lost Property
1953
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Posted - 2014.03.28 20:11:00 -
[174] - Quote
I agree with every point you brought up. Honestly any person whose played a game with cloaking won't have a problem with this.. Thank you AVP AJL.. You think this is hard too see then you haven't played a game with real cloaking..
Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1987
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Posted - 2014.03.28 20:32:00 -
[175] - Quote
In some areas the cloak shimmer is pretty obvious, but against some backgrounds it's nearly impossible to see without the scout moving at more than walking speed. Sometimes it's actually easier to spot a bad guy through a bush in ARMA 3 than it is to track a cloaky in Dust. |
RydogV
Shadow Company HQ
Lokun Listamenn
704
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Posted - 2014.03.28 20:35:00 -
[176] - Quote
Bormir1r wrote:Yagihige wrote:Uncloaking sends your cloak energy to 0%. You can only use it again when it gets back to 100%. Fixed. Too much penalty on cloaks. 25-50% sounds right, imagine standing around in the open butt-naked for a 30 seconds sourrounded by eneimes after you've decloaked and you're trying to evade.
And herein lies the problem. What are you doing dropping a cloak in the middle of a swarm of enemies?!
Before any solution to the 'cloak issue' can be realized, the developer needs to actually figure out what the cloak is designed to be. As it was being discussed, I was under the impression it was being added to the game as a means of giving Scouts a better infiltration role. They are squishy, so give them the ability to traverse a hostile field of battle with more security so that they will not be detected. It was a stealth ability, period.
If the mechanic had been billed as this great offensive tool, then I am pretty sure much of the Community would have voiced out against it. There is nothing inherently stealthy about coming up and ganking three dudes from behind with a shotgun. Anyone adept at flanking should be able to pull that off, without a cloak. There is nothing stealthy about decloaking in a group of enemy, setting off a few remotes, cloaking again in the midst of chaos and then running away. Shotgunning and blowing things up are pretty much the exact opposite of being stealthy. Some might even say it's a pretty cheap approach but 'all's fair'. Honestly, why don't we just expedite the process and give the Scout a teleport ability to boot?
Our friend above is apparently decloaking 'surrounded by enemies'. Nothing stealthy about that either. Now I am not saying that a cloaked Scout should not have the ability to strike from the shadows, but the decision to do so must have consequence. Exposing yourself should have risk that goes with your reward. And the inability to recloak right away seems like a fair trade. You can pick off the lone wolf or straggler (shame on them for not sticking with the team) but you cannot run into the fray of a hotly contested objective and expect to get out alive.
I would much rather see a cloaked Scout be able to hack a Null Cannon without causing it to alert the enemy. That is a benefit of cloaking I can get behind in an objective based game. That puts the infiltrator role front and forward and makes 'The Assassin' a secondary, albeit more risky, vocation. |
Xender17
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
1036
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Posted - 2014.03.28 20:40:00 -
[177] - Quote
So say a caldari scout is cloaked and flux is thrown at it.
There goes its stealth and pretty much 90% of its HP.
CCP Saberwing "Vehicles have taken a step in the right direction"
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Eko Sol
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
134
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Posted - 2014.03.28 20:53:00 -
[178] - Quote
A scout, by definition, should not go 19/1 b/c it cloaks and shotguns and cloaks and shotguns and cloaks and shotguns....
If you switch to a weapon there should be a decloak animation and then the ability to fire a weapon should be much longer. I'm sick of firing at a cloaked person then they shoot at me, kill me, and then they finally uncloak. I believe there should be a .5 second decloak animation and a .5 second non cloaked period where you cannot fire, use equipment, etc. After the full completion then you should be able to fire. I have personally tested through this and I really think this needs to be changed. I am just running around dropping uplinks and getting in and out of fire fights WAY too easily.
I also believe all motion should cause a shimmer. If you stand still while cloaked and jump straight up then you stay 100% invisible. If you climb a ladder then you stay 100% invisible. This should not be the case. All motion should cause a shimmer to include if someone else runs into such as a friendly lav or tank. If I get moved by a friendly vehicle then I should shimmer.
In FW, I got killed by a friendly who thought I was an enemy cloak or maybe he/she was just a d!ck. Either way, I believe that there should a be a special shimmer that is more indicative of who is a friendly cloak. I originally thought that maybe there should be a dark blue shimmer for friendlies and a light red shimmer for enemy but I think that advertises the cloak too much. Not sure. I would settle for any solution that better helps accidental team killing
I don't think brick tanking is an issue. I think the gap between a pure ADV level user (~7 - 9 mil SP) vs and a pure proto level (~15 - 18 mil SP) is way too large. If a proto min-scout can crack 1 complex reactive plate, 1 kinkat, 1 complex damp, 2 complex shields, 1 complex precision enhancer, a fully proficient shotgun to include pg/cpu reduction, and a cloak all on one unit while someone elses assault suit can't even hit those numbers then I believe there is a serious overall balance issue as opposed to brick tanking is the issue. That an there was a scout that had over 650 armor time and time again. I am not even sure where and how anyone could do that.
Equipment CPU/PG reduction bonus applies to cloaks from Logi's. This should be fixed as well.
I can't possibly comprehend why all of the Rifles were nerfed but sniper rifles, HMG's, and Shotguns were not nerfed. That is absolutely ridiculous that a fully proficient shotgun with a single or two damage mods is single handidly so high in DPS. It makes no sense whatsoever. How the hell does this fix TTK. I may be digressing but this needs to be addressed as well.
I believe the range to see a cloaked person in motion should be limited to 30 meters. I'm sick of getting shot at by a tank at 65 meters while cloaked. I'm not sure if they get a better view or not but it's awfully ridiculous.
I, personally, believe that a cloak should take up 2 equipment slots. This weird Logi cloak scout thing I'm seeing just doesn't seem right. There are more versatility in scouts then there are with Logi's which, to me, seems wrong. |
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
846
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Posted - 2014.03.28 21:13:00 -
[179] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Personally I think they did a fair job of balancing the cloak. Most tears come from oversaturation of the role due to it being new equipment. Anything seems ridiculous in high volumes. This is a new toy and everyone wants to play with it. I want to be very very sure nothing is done in classic CCP fashion as a ridiculous nerf due to the tears of the loud sections of our playerbase.
I agree that there should be different variants for different jobs and playstyles. The weapon switch in my opinion is about perfect. It's not too short and not too long. I think most people have problems with the cloaks and shotguns. For any other weapon that requires you to actually aim a little bit the decloak time is perfect.
Also we must consider that currently even the minmatar has a lot of trouble in the fitting department. An increase in cloak cost will make this suit which already has extremely low HP even weaker and harder to fit. You can barely fit a basic cloak on an adv minmatar even if you use mostly e-war and regen mods.
I think Moody is spot on with this.
The cloak is balanced pretty well and it's a really nice addition to the game. The most significant piece we need to address is the flux/damage effects on cloaking. I think Flux should take a big bite out of the timer and at some point direct damage should effect the visibility.
My recommendation is that when he scout takes damage while cloaked they shimmer at the same level as when they are in full sprint.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
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Izlare Lenix
Arrogance.
325
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Posted - 2014.03.28 21:43:00 -
[180] - Quote
The shimmer should be based on speed. The faster you run the more you shimmer. Meaning a scout with kin cats should shimmer more than a scout without kin cats.
Some minny and gal Scouts move so fast they are hard to see when cloaked. This is very problematic with the gal scout/shotgun combo. They are super fast, fully dampened to everything, and when cloaked they are very hard to see.
Gun control is not about guns...it's about control.
The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
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jerrmy12 kahoalii
765
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Posted - 2014.03.28 21:45:00 -
[181] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Personally I think they did a fair job of balancing the cloak. Most tears come from oversaturation of the role due to it being new equipment. Anything seems ridiculous in high volumes. This is a new toy and everyone wants to play with it. I want to be very very sure nothing is done in classic CCP fashion as a ridiculous nerf due to the tears of the loud sections of our playerbase.
I agree that there should be different variants for different jobs and playstyles. The weapon switch in my opinion is about perfect. It's not too short and not too long. I think most people have problems with the cloaks and shotguns. For any other weapon that requires you to actually aim a little bit the decloak time is perfect.
Also we must consider that currently even the minmatar has a lot of trouble in the fitting department. An increase in cloak cost will make this suit which already has extremely low HP even weaker and harder to fit. You can barely fit a basic cloak on an adv minmatar even if you use mostly e-war and regen mods. I think Moody is spot on with this. The cloak is balanced pretty well and it's a really nice addition to the game. The most significant piece we need to address is the flux/damage effects on cloaking. I think Flux should take a big bite out of the timer and at some point direct damage should effect the visibility. My recommendation is that when he scout takes damage while cloaked they shimmer at the same level as when they are in full sprint.
Has anybody done a cloaking vid two enemies, 1 records 1 cloaks, walks, and sprints that kind of thing...on a non super bright map.
Closed beta vet
Tears, sweet delicious tears
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Tupni
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Dirt Nap Squad.
78
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Posted - 2014.03.28 21:56:00 -
[182] - Quote
I want to keep logi bonus to cloaks because it amuses me and doesn't seem like it would hurt anything. Also I don't want scouts to literally have a monopoly on one particular equipment and also access to everything else. I mean 2 equipment slots on a scout at level one?? They're basically little speed logis that can also 1 hit kill everything.
Also, petition for cloaks reducing the user's shields a bit. Having a shield and a cloak both at full capacity should cause interference to one another, and thus it's sensible that the cloak dampens the shield (temporarily 'damaging' it a set amount, say 60 hp maximum?). This serves as a nerf to the cloak, giving non-scout players a better chance of successfully defeating a scout before it can 1 hit them (though only if they see it and thus not fundamentally altering the framework of the cloak), puts the Caldari scout down a peg, gives the Amarr and Gal a mild edge, and the Mins just get a little weaker but why not say hey they're exempt because I feel bad for them and their heretical ways. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13894
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Posted - 2014.03.28 22:37:00 -
[183] - Quote
So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel'
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Floyd20 Azizora
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
45
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Posted - 2014.03.28 22:40:00 -
[184] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel'
honestly, prefer cloaks slow me down a few %, and maybe being able to walk with the slimmer less visible(more of a sliding scale then off/on switch) |
jerrmy12 kahoalii
767
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Posted - 2014.03.28 22:41:00 -
[185] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel'
No...
Closed beta vet
Tears, sweet delicious tears
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Samantha Hunyz
G.R.A.V.E
INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
90
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Posted - 2014.03.28 22:43:00 -
[186] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel'
CCP's vision of the cloak was you could use it to cross an area safely or to get away from a hot area. The current way it works, you can do both easily back to back. Decloaking should reset the fuel to 0. This way you can use either one way or the other, but not constantly spam and crutch on the cloak.
When I look down my scope, all I see are dead people.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13897
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Posted - 2014.03.28 23:23:00 -
[187] - Quote
Samantha Hunyz wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel' CCP's vision of the cloak was you could use it to cross an area safely or to get away from a hot area. The current way it works, you can do both easily back to back. Decloaking should reset the fuel to 0. This way you can use either one way or the other, but not constantly spam and crutch on the cloak.
The thing is I doubt I can get ccp to shift to a 'consume all fuel' they're pretty set on the 'cloak management' idea and to be honest I have no intention of even fancying the idea.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
Eko Sol
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
134
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Posted - 2014.03.28 23:32:00 -
[188] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Samantha Hunyz wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel' CCP's vision of the cloak was you could use it to cross an area safely or to get away from a hot area. The current way it works, you can do both easily back to back. Decloaking should reset the fuel to 0. This way you can use either one way or the other, but not constantly spam and crutch on the cloak. The thing is I doubt I can get ccp to shift to a 'consume all fuel' they're pretty set on the 'cloak management' idea and to be honest I have no intention of even fancying the idea.
I would argue that fuel consumption for decloaking is extremely valid. How about cutting remaining time in half so it's always under 50% and can't be reactivated instantly? |
Eno Raef
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
104
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 23:38:00 -
[189] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel'
I don't think cloaks should use fuel to de-cloak. On my scout suit, which I only have 200 ehp, de-cloaking to take out an uplink, get the drop on an enemy, or to simply make a quick escape has definitely improved my survivability. For the most part, if anyone sees me, my 200 ehp is gone in a split second.
Managing cloak fuel is a part of cloaking tactic but I hope there is another method to reduce cloaking and brick scout abuse.
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Alaskan Ganja
Nos Nothi
10
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 00:13:00 -
[190] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel'
Actually that sounds perfect. Maybe something like decloaking takes off 1/4th of the "fuel".
Makes it so if you really need to cloak to get out of a sticky situation you get one chance to cloak after decloaking once.
Don't mind me I'm just Some Alaskan.
Total Hatemails received: Less than or equal to 5.
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1988
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Posted - 2014.03.29 00:15:00 -
[191] - Quote
Here's another possible solution - you can't engage your cloak if there are hostiles within 10 meters...or some other non-trivial range. That lets a scout skirmish on the edge of the a big firefight and take out people who stray too far from their friends and kill solitary defenders before hacking a point. But it'd also stop them from going all Ninja Gaiden and killing an entire army by themselves. If you want to drop your cloak in the middle of a red squad and survive you better have a well thought out escape plan. |
Appia Vibbia
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1843
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 00:33:00 -
[192] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Glitches obviously need to be fixed, but glitches are glitches.
Moving while cloaked is easy to see.
Flux grenades should fully drain a cloaks recharge meter thing. I haven't used them personally, so I can't really comment on the rest. You shouldn't be decloaked from damage.
Brick tanking is a problem that CCP has been creating for a while, and they only further encouraged it with the 1.8 TTK changes. The damage and flux I like, the glitches needs to be fixed but this is just common sense. As for brick tanking that is not a scout problem, this is a general problem due to bad module distribution and nothing better than HP modules. This. The problem of cloaks isn't just abot cloaks. It's not even about scouts. It's about a lot of other issues with the fittings meta as well. Also, assaults need to be better at assaulting - that would help alleviate scout/cloak spam. Without the spam, QQ should be reduced. Just please - I'm sure I'm not the only scout who was apprehensive about our role bonus being tied to one specific piece of equipment. I'd seriously prefer CCP ditched it and gave us another role bonus, rather than watch it go through a ridiculous nerf/buff cycle. Alternatively, create more ways to counter cloaks.
wut.
. . .
You do realize that you kept the previous bonus, reduced scan profile, right? Only now it is innate to the suit, rather than the skill.
That makes the cloak bonus far superior to having a 45 dB Scout and 33 dB Gallente Scout.
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com
AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
|
One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
841
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 00:54:00 -
[193] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
My question is should all scouts have similar fitting issues to the minmatar or should minmatar be brought up to the rest of the class?
I think all scouts should have fitting issues. Sacrifices should be made.
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel'
No. I think the fact you can't recloak with cloak stamina lower than 50% is plenty enough counter to always switching back and forth. There have been a number of times I have been forced to hide and wait for my cloak to recharge or head into the fray undampened.
Looking for the scout hangout?
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Samantha Hunyz
G.R.A.V.E
INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
94
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Posted - 2014.03.29 00:58:00 -
[194] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Samantha Hunyz wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel' CCP's vision of the cloak was you could use it to cross an area safely or to get away from a hot area. The current way it works, you can do both easily back to back. Decloaking should reset the fuel to 0. This way you can use either one way or the other, but not constantly spam and crutch on the cloak. The thing is I doubt I can get ccp to shift to a 'consume all fuel' they're pretty set on the 'cloak management' idea and to be honest I have no intention of even fancying the idea.
If they want it to be managed time, it kinda fits into there wave of opportunity they have going for vehicles. Simple fix is to either reduce the active times, or slow the regen, or tweeks to both. As it stands, cloak scouts stay cloaked far to long and often to give other players a chance to catch them uncloaked. Reminds me of the infite scans we had prior to 1.8, no drawback.
When I look down my scope, all I see are dead people.
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Eddie Rio
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
93
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Posted - 2014.03.29 01:08:00 -
[195] - Quote
I think the cloaks are fine (other than the bug where you can run around with your knives out cloaked after hacking a point)..
I personally feel it would be best to wait until the novelty wears off a bit and the 'dust' of 1.8 settles before making any rash changes...
My YouTube
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knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
944
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 01:20:00 -
[196] - Quote
Eddie Rio wrote:I think the cloaks are fine (other than the bug where you can run around with your knives out cloaked after hacking a point)..
I personally feel it would be best to wait until the novelty wears off a bit and the 'dust' of 1.8 settles before making any rash changes...
ikr, i dont know why people complain so much  
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
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medomai grey
WarRavens
League of Infamy
476
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 01:31:00 -
[197] - Quote
I feel cloaks should behave more like camouflage, easy to miss if your not actually looking for it but totally recognizable if you are looking for it. Kind of like the Predator's cloak.
I'm not fond of how you're essentially invisible when you stand still cloaked. No one is going to spot the virtually non-existent distortions, especially on dark maps. I feel cloaks should create a noticeable distortion when both standing still or moving without any shimmering, like the predator's cloak.
As for cloaks persisting too well through damage, have to agree with Iron Wolf Saber. It's not fair to the guy who spots and shoots at a cloaked enemy. But it isn't fair for cloaked players who get hit by stray bullets either.
There are some annoying bugs like where players can use their weapons while being cloaked indefinitely and being able to fire shots off before actually de-cloaking.
I want cloaks in Dust514, but they could have done with more time in Santa's workshop getting it right.
I've been told that people prefer fake smiles over the honest expressions of their fellow men. : )
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Cotsy8
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
154
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Posted - 2014.03.29 01:48:00 -
[198] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel'
Can someone give me 5 reasons why cloaks are required.
Can a scout not succeed without a cloak? Scouts were given a boost to modules, equipment in 1.8 so why was a cloak introduced on top of that, was it really needed?
Show me how a cloak isn't being used to rewards poor gameplay or has to be used to get kills. Tell me why skillful play shouldn't be the reason you succeed rather than an easy button.
Show me how the cloak isn't a crutch or an easy mode. Explain why it is required while providing an argument how it doesn't give players an advantage (offensively and defensively) with no drawbacks.
If you must use more invalid arguments, you can use "eyes are OP" or "get good". I have not read a single supporting argument for a cloak to be in the game. I have clearly shown how it rewards poor gameplay and lowers the likelihood that terrible decisions are punished simply by turning it on.
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knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
946
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 02:32:00 -
[199] - Quote
proof that our cloak isnt OP
stop complaing about cloaks.
other games have better cloaks than ours and they somehow dont consider it OP but for some reason we complain about anything new or "powerful" to be OP
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
Centurion mkII
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
208
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 02:33:00 -
[200] - Quote
I don't think cloaks are too hard to spot.
I disagree with increasing the time between de cloaking and bringing out your weapon. As a scout a dropped my mag sec side arm when i choose to do damage i need to do it now.
I think changes could be made to being damaged and then being seen. I approve the idea of it draining your cloak timer but it has to have a cap and no more. I need to be able to use my cloak later to hide once i've escaped. ***
I think current cloak timers are fine but am always eager for a variant.
Cloaked hacking perhaps removed for turrets? On other objectives it makes since but on turrets you can't see them and can only guess where they are.
I think besides *** all things are fine people just need time and to look for sprinty purple squiggles.
Edit: Also who are you to use words like "will not be tolerated". Your not some han solo on the forums only GMs/Devs can moderate the forums. Your statement was unnecessarily authoritative and an empty threat. It made me think poorly of you as a person. |
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Selinate deux
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
123
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 02:39:00 -
[201] - Quote
Make cloaks take up the primary weapon slot and half of this stuff about 1-shotting shotgun cloaks is solved.
Cloaks need a buff with the shimmer being too bright at slow speeds, not a nerf. |
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
946
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 02:43:00 -
[202] - Quote
Selinate deux wrote:Make cloaks take up the primary weapon slot and half of this stuff about 1-shotting shotgun cloaks is solved.
Cloaks need a buff with the shimmer being too bright at slow speeds, not a nerf.
i agree but they dont need a buff or a nerf, the primary thing is kinda not right, but i do agrre that it shimmers too much at walking speeds and should be that bright for such a slow pace
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
byte modal
58
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Posted - 2014.03.29 02:44:00 -
[203] - Quote
meow.
Yeah, so I went crazy this afternoon and wrote a damn near blog over this mess and got carried away with it. Ended up just making another thread over yonder somewhere. With that said, here's the core comments based off the OP list here---at least the few that I thought were relevant.
Shooting from Cloak
I give on the animation speed to attack time. I canGÇÖt see it from my interface but if there is a bit of a delay on your side watching me de-cloak and you taking damage before the animation transition has finished then sure. Fix it. I am not trying to be a smart ass here, but if cloaked and you canGÇÖt see youGÇÖre attacker, how can you tell if he is firing before or after cloak drops? If you can actually see the transition then why not just shoot at the animated mess? ThatGÇÖs chicken or the egg stuff right there. Has anyone tested this with two players facing each other, one cloaked with test fire? So are you thinking to jam the gun for 1-3 seconds so that it is impossible to fire, or are you looking to shorten the animation of de-cloak to match the speed of a normal weapon swap allowing for full fire once the swap has been made?
Cloak Removal on Damage
No. But IGÇÖd be fine with a smidge more cloak interference with that honeycomb grid flaring just a bit more when shot. Someone mentioned predator before and I like that reference.
Flux and Damage Disruption
Allowing flux to disrupt the cloak visibility momentarily? I actually like that as a strategy. We freely toss them around corners, into rooms, and objectives if we think someone is there, so why not let that be a sort of flushing out for cloaks too? I donGÇÖt think cloak should be dropped, just disrupted---while our shields are depleted. Just keep in mind there should be a fine balance between weapons fire and flux disruption. The flux should just be enough to flush him out. If you miss the quick visual cue, oh well because heGÇÖs invisible again now and youGÇÖre in trouble. If you fire on the cloak, then the glimmer should be the same as when running with a few random honeycomb spikes in visibility for the duration of shots taken.
I also do not think it necessary to dedicate a grenade spot to just disrupting cloaks. That's too demanding. Just let it play off flux and maybe later, for the logi class, there might be a dedicated equipment item as some have suggested to create a defensible area that disrupts or even removes cloak in proximity. That could work assuming later cloak builds offer more specialized tactics as the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy guy described. I'll find the post and link sooner or later.
Cloak Noise
From first person perspective, I absolutely love the sound dampening. We have sensors already and passive scan, so it might be fun to turn the ambient volume down a bit more and increase breathing volume or something to add to disorientation. That would take a bit more away from cloaked immediate situational awareness? If someone is firing (and missing) on us at range beyond our sensor/minimap view then we wouldnGÇÖt hear the missed GÇ£tingGÇ¥ of shots so common from sniper fire. That would be a subtle addition of risk, but one that seems cool and abstract.
Brick Tanking
This isnGÇÖt the cloakGÇÖs fault and belongs in a thread all of its own as this is really a huge problem that just happens to overlap some of the perceived issues with cloak at the moment.
*dramatically holds out hand, pauses, then drops drum sticks*
=^.^=
Irony: Post #35
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knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
946
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 02:45:00 -
[204] - Quote
Cotsy8 wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel' Can someone give me 5 reasons why cloaks are required. Can a scout not succeed without a cloak? Scouts were given a boost to modules, equipment in 1.8 so why was a cloak introduced on top of that, was it really needed? Show me how a cloak isn't being used to rewards poor gameplay or has to be used to get kills. Tell me why skillful play shouldn't be the reason you succeed rather than an easy button. Show me how the cloak isn't a crutch or an easy mode. Explain why it is required while providing an argument how it doesn't give players an advantage (offensively and defensively) with no drawbacks. If you must use more invalid arguments, you can use "eyes are OP" or "get good". I have not read a single supporting argument for a cloak to be in the game. I have clearly shown how it rewards poor gameplay and lowers the likelihood that terrible decisions are punished simply by turning it on.
why do you hate cloaks so much
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
946
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 02:48:00 -
[205] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:proof that our cloak isnt OPstop complaing about cloaks. other games have better cloaks than ours and they somehow dont consider it OP but for some reason we complain about anything new or "powerful" to be OP
^this
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
Samantha Hunyz
G.R.A.V.E
INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
94
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 02:49:00 -
[206] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:proof that our cloak isnt OPstop complaing about cloaks. other games have better cloaks than ours and they somehow dont consider it OP but for some reason we complain about anything new or "powerful" to be OP Just watch the linked video. 1st cloak uptime 10secs, quick regen. 2nd one was could regen while cloaked and not moving, but disabled the ability of equiping a primary weapon. Both had drawbacks for balance. Your video link trumped your post logic. Dust cloaks have fair quick regen and long uptime, with little drawback for a scout. This is why Dust 514 cloaks are OP.
When I look down my scope, all I see are dead people.
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Selinate deux
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
123
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Posted - 2014.03.29 02:50:00 -
[207] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:Selinate deux wrote:Make cloaks take up the primary weapon slot and half of this stuff about 1-shotting shotgun cloaks is solved.
Cloaks need a buff with the shimmer being too bright at slow speeds, not a nerf. i agree but they dont need a buff or a nerf, the primary thing is kinda not right, but i do agrre that it shimmers too much at walking speeds and should be that bright for such a slow pace
The "primary thing" is exactly right and it satisfies the entire purpose of cloaking (infiltrating, hacking while behind enemy lines, espionage, precise and targeted killing), without making people shotgun gank machines in the middle of a battlefield. Scouts aren't meant to go toe to toe with assaults or heavies. You shouldn't be able to cloak, then uncloak with a shotgun and suddenly gank 5 people on the enemy line.
As it is now, cloaking is just a broken mechanic. I have to sit completely still for no one to see me, and I have to have cloaked and become still before anyone had seen me also because otherwise, I'm just screwed if I'm not near decent cover (which for a lot of maps is most of the map). It should not be like this. |
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
946
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 02:52:00 -
[208] - Quote
Samantha Hunyz wrote:knight guard fury wrote:proof that our cloak isnt OPstop complaing about cloaks. other games have better cloaks than ours and they somehow dont consider it OP but for some reason we complain about anything new or "powerful" to be OP Just watch the linked video. 1st cloak uptime 10secs, quick regen. 2nd one was could regen while cloaked and not moving, but disabled the ability of equiping a primary weapon. Both had drawbacks for balance. Your video link trumped your post logic. Dust cloaks have fair quick regen and long uptime, with little drawback for a scout. This is why Dust 514 cloaks are OP.
watch the others
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
946
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 02:55:00 -
[209] - Quote
Selinate deux wrote:knight guard fury wrote:Selinate deux wrote:Make cloaks take up the primary weapon slot and half of this stuff about 1-shotting shotgun cloaks is solved.
Cloaks need a buff with the shimmer being too bright at slow speeds, not a nerf. i agree but they dont need a buff or a nerf, the primary thing is kinda not right, but i do agrre that it shimmers too much at walking speeds and should be that bright for such a slow pace The "primary thing" is exactly right and it satisfies the entire purpose of cloaking (infiltrating, hacking while behind enemyy lines, espionage, precise and targeted killing), without making people shotgun gank machines in the middle of a battlefield. Scouts aren't meant to go toe to toe with assaults or heavies. You shouldn't be able to cloak, then uncloak with a shotgun and suddenly gank 5 people on the enemy line. As it is now, cloaking is just a broken mechanic. I have to sit completely still for no one to see me, and I have to have cloaked and become still before anyone had seen me also because otherwise, I'm just screwed if I'm not near decent cover (which for a lot of maps is most of the map). It should not be like this.
its not broken, planetside 2 allows you to to cloak completely invisible and kill people right after decloaking, and recloak soon after.
cloaking should never replace the primary weapon because its not right and no other game has ever done it.
give me one game that does what you just said.
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
Selinate deux
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
123
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 02:57:00 -
[210] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:
its not broken, planetside 2 allows you to to cloak completely invisible and kill people right after decloaking, and recloak soon after.
cloaking should never replace the primary weapon because its not right and no other game has ever done it.
give me one game that does what you just said.
Oh ffs, so that's your logic? That's a **** poor train of logic and you should feel bad. "No one has ever done it so we can't do it either because if no one has done it than it must be bad!" That makes absolutely zero sense.
And if it's so incredibly important to you to know of a game that's done it like that, planetside 1 did.
Just because planetside 2 does it one way does not mean a single damn thing in a completely different game. |
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Michael Arck
Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu
Lokun Listamenn
3760
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Posted - 2014.03.29 03:26:00 -
[211] - Quote
Are they really nerfing cloaks?
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu.
Are you OUKH?
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Yan Darn
Science For Death
431
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Posted - 2014.03.29 03:45:00 -
[212] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:Yan Darn wrote:
This. The problem of cloaks isn't just abot cloaks. It's not even about scouts. It's about a lot of other issues with the fittings meta as well.
Also, assaults need to be better at assaulting - that would help alleviate scout/cloak spam. Without the spam, QQ should be reduced.
Just please - I'm sure I'm not the only scout who was apprehensive about our role bonus being tied to one specific piece of equipment. I'd seriously prefer CCP ditched it and gave us another role bonus, rather than watch it go through a ridiculous nerf/buff cycle.
Alternatively, create more ways to counter cloaks.
wut. . . . You do realize that you kept the previous bonus, reduced scan profile, right? Only now it is innate to the suit, rather than the skill. That makes the cloak bonus far superior to having a 45 dB Scout and 33 dB Gallente Scout.
wut.
I coulda sworn we had this 15% reduction to cloak fitting bonus. You're right, our base profile changed - this made it so the old bonus on all scouts was unnecessary...that was part of the balancing; we didn't 'keep the previous bonus'. We got a bonus to cloaks. If the cloak QQ continues I'd rather see it changed to something else and cloaks just ditched.
Its the only role bonus as far as I'm aware that only affects one specific piece of equipment. We are tied to cloaks more than any other role is defined by a single specific piece of equipment.
Unless for some reason you think I'm arguing for the old bonuses back.
The Ghost of Bravo
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Enji Elric
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
Interstellar Murder of Crows
194
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Posted - 2014.03.29 03:54:00 -
[213] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Personally I think they did a fair job of balancing the cloak. Most tears come from oversaturation of the role due to it being new equipment. Anything seems ridiculous in high volumes. This is a new toy and everyone wants to play with it. I want to be very very sure nothing is done in classic CCP fashion as a ridiculous nerf due to the tears of the loud sections of our playerbase.
I agree that there should be different variants for different jobs and playstyles. The weapon switch in my opinion is about perfect. It's not too short and not too long. I think most people have problems with the cloaks and shotguns. For any other weapon that requires you to actually aim a little bit the decloak time is perfect.
Also we must consider that currently even the minmatar has a lot of trouble in the fitting department. An increase in cloak cost will make this suit which already has extremely HP even weaker and harder to fit. My question is should all scouts have similar fitting issues to the minmatar or should minmatar be brought up to the rest of the class?
Without a doubt a Minmatar should be able to use a cloak on the same level as any other class.
I understand minmatar are the fastest but that shouldnt mean we cannot fit equipment on our suits.
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DootDoot
Da Short Buss
RISE of LEGION
322
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Posted - 2014.03.29 04:00:00 -
[214] - Quote
Bethhy wrote: De-Cloaking Animation needs to be fixed. As much fun as it is.
Shimmering needs tweaking. Full shimmer for Sprinting, Less Shimmer for walking... And Standing still Shimmer for crouch walking. Cloak needs to reward stealthy activities.
People not being able to see the cloak.. Is more Due to it not being a main feature offered in a Majority of FPS games.
Players from Crysis are already picking cloakers out like a sore thumb... Even stationary camping ones.
After 2-3 weeks players will start knowing exactly what to look for... And the run spots, Hide spots... and learn the corners of the maps scouts could be waiting for them.
Stray bullets On the battlefield are everywhere... If damage altered the cloak in anyway it would render the entire item so situational, it would obsolete it. Where I would love to see the cloak become a balance point and staple of DUST. And could be a very unique successful mechanic, That Future developers in the field would refer too.
-With more performance increases to DUST 514.. with consistent frame rates and Server/client updates while partaking in full 16 vs 16 gunfights of players from all over the world..., Will only improve peoples ability to use and counter the Cloaking device.
^ Anything else is just whining from my Minmatar Logi view.
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medomai grey
WarRavens
League of Infamy
479
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Posted - 2014.03.29 04:22:00 -
[215] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:proof that our cloak isnt OPstop complaing about cloaks. other games have better cloaks than ours and they somehow dont consider it OP but for some reason we complain about anything new or "powerful" to be OP You linked a link to a youtube video about the different cloaks available in another game. That is not proof of anything, that is a youtube video about the different cloaks available in another game.  Although it was a very nice explanation of the different cloaks in Planetside2.
The forums exist for discussion and debate. If you don't like it, all you have to do is click the red "x" in the top right of this window.
I've been told that people prefer fake smiles over the honest expressions of their fellow men. : )
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Regis Blackbird
DUST University
Ivy League
132
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Posted - 2014.03.29 07:04:00 -
[216] - Quote
I think the cloak is in a fairly good place, maybe a minor tweak or two, but not more.
It is quite easy to spot cloaked mercs on the run, and I have dropped a few of them. I have even learnt to expect cloaked scouts a objectives, and have found quite a few by a quick spray at obvious locations.
-> Although, it would be nice if a flux increased the shimmer effect for a short period.
I think speeding up the decloaking animation to prevent the 0.5 seconds firing while cloaked will not make much of a difference since I am usually killed from behind (a smart cloak waits until I run past him).
Perhaps a (small) activation cost of the cloak is better, that will take you faster below the 50% threshold if you spam the cloak. This will penalise rapid switching between cloaking and firing, but only make a small difference if you drop a uplink or none at all if you transverse an area. |
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
949
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Posted - 2014.03.29 08:06:00 -
[217] - Quote
cloaks are easy to spot, uyou just need to get use to seeing them and how they look.
ive killed plenty of scouts today while they were cloaked and have had no problem with them.
MD's are very useful since they can just tear scouts apart with thier splash dmg
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
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BIind Shot
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
73
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Posted - 2014.03.29 08:26:00 -
[218] - Quote
RemingtonBeaver wrote:My take since running a proto minja since 1.8
I don't run other racial scouts and my minmatar is squishy. If I fail to plan my attacks, or get sloppy with my tactics then I will die. Scouts rocking cloaks should feel squishy. And yes fitting a minja is terrible compromise.
Fluxes should knock shields out and require a full recharge.
The activation of the cloak is hit and miss. Its slow and I've had issues with activating it while running. Activating it while running should be available.
The ability to re-cloak after an action is necessary. If I am planting REs on a point and the enemy is on their way I shouldn't have to wait 30 seconds before I can re-cloak. I think the timing on the cloak is perfect. I have been caught in multiple occasions where my cloak was about to be depleted and had to decloak in less than strategic places.
Seriously the timers are golden. I can see them becoming terrible very easily through adjusting them for the worse.
Cloaks are amazing. The entire playstyle is different and requires recon and planning to be good at.
Being able to fire my gun while cloaked is not a good bug. I've done it once by accident and then noticed it was repeatable. That need fixed before a QQ storm has cloaks demoted to flaylock status.
p.s.
Scanners are awful now. They need some love.
The noises assiciated with cloaks, albeit a bit buggy, are amazing.
I completely agree. You have to scout(no pun intended) the battlefield before you make your move. Before the cloaks I would peak around a corner just to have my face blown off before I could even consider a move. Now I can peak around the corner and see my targets and (this part is essential having only 400 total hp an all) get the jump on one of them. You have to attack like a shark. Kill one then back to the shadows. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
953
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Posted - 2014.03.29 08:38:00 -
[219] - Quote
IWS, I don't think you represent the community. Imo you don't get to start threads like this for your convenience.
PLC, NK, Scout - before 1.8.
That's right, I stack that OP Sh!t.
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Broonfondle Majikthies
Dogs of War Gaming
Zero-Day
1038
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Posted - 2014.03.29 09:58:00 -
[220] - Quote
As far as the idea for cloak to take a weapon slot - no
Been a Min scout since 1.2. I love knives and am fairly good with them, but they are situational and extremely detrimental to a team.
I can't count the number of times I've seen a team mate die because someone else wanted to go for the knife kill. Its incredibly stupid and frustrating.
Not to mention the mechanics don't support using it as a primary. The slightest unexpected movement and the strike is ruined and your completely boned as they're usually now behind you.
How about if we could make the cloak force the light slot to change to another sidearm?
"...where Bylothgar the Ill-postured was made King of the People With No Name But Decent Footwear"
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Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
Top Men.
1237
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Posted - 2014.03.29 10:16:00 -
[221] - Quote
The ONLY reason why the cloak is currently OP is because you can perform certain actions like switching weapons and shooting, throwing grenades, meleeing, or switching to equipment, before the decloak animation is complete.
This could be easily solved by forcing you to go through the decloak animation before performing such actions, either by making it so only the FIRE button decloaks you, or making the animation mandatory before any of the other actions are initiated.
Therefore you could no longer kill an enemy who has line of sight on you unless he realizes you are there, as you MUST become visible prior to using your weapon/equipment/whatever.
Scouts are currently using the "shoot before decloak" to successfully surprise attack from the front. The above change forces them to attack from the back, which is how a scout should attack. But let's be real; in many cases where a frontal assault worked, the scout could simply have waited for you to pass by, decloaked, then killed you. You should not have a problem with this; this is good strategy, not an exploit or an OP tactic. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1663
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Posted - 2014.03.29 11:31:00 -
[222] - Quote
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus. While we could go after the tanking modules themselves that's going to effect ALL classes and that would get more messy than needed.
this isnt a problem for scouts specifically, its a problem for ALL dropsuits. its currently the most effective build for every other suit so why wouldnt it be the most effective build for scouts as well?
the fix here is to eliminate brick tanking as the most effective way to build a dropsuit for all suits, not just scouts. as brick tanking wasnt really CCPs intended design and its promanance is screwing with all sorts of things. |
BIind Shot
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
74
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:34:00 -
[223] - Quote
RydogV wrote:Bormir1r wrote:Yagihige wrote:Uncloaking sends your cloak energy to 0%. You can only use it again when it gets back to 100%. Fixed. Too much penalty on cloaks. 25-50% sounds right, imagine standing around in the open butt-naked for a 30 seconds sourrounded by eneimes after you've decloaked and you're trying to evade. And herein lies the problem. What are you doing dropping a cloak in the middle of a swarm of enemies?! Before any solution to the 'cloak issue' can be realized, the developer needs to actually figure out what the cloak is designed to be. As it was being discussed, I was under the impression it was being added to the game as a means of giving Scouts a better infiltration role. They are squishy, so give them the ability to traverse a hostile field of battle with more security so that they will not be detected. It was a stealth ability, period. If the mechanic had been billed as this great offensive tool, then I am pretty sure much of the Community would have voiced out against it. There is nothing inherently stealthy about coming up and ganking three dudes from behind with a shotgun. Anyone adept at flanking should be able to pull that off, without a cloak. There is nothing stealthy about decloaking in a group of enemy, setting off a few remotes, cloaking again in the midst of chaos and then running away. Shotgunning and blowing things up are pretty much the exact opposite of being stealthy. Some might even say it's a pretty cheap approach but 'all's fair'. Honestly, why don't we just expedite the process and give the Scout a teleport ability to boot? Our friend above is apparently decloaking 'surrounded by enemies'. Nothing stealthy about that either. Now I am not saying that a cloaked Scout should not have the ability to strike from the shadows, but the decision to do so must have consequence. Exposing yourself should have risk that goes with your reward. And the inability to recloak right away seems like a fair trade. You can pick off the lone wolf or straggler (shame on them for not sticking with the team) but you cannot run into the fray of a hotly contested objective and expect to get out alive. I would much rather see a cloaked Scout be able to hack a Null Cannon without causing it to alert the enemy. That is a benefit of cloaking I can get behind in an objective based game. That puts the infiltrator role front and forward and makes 'The Assassin' a secondary, albeit more risky, vocation.
That's the thing about all this QQing . I don't see any of these scouts doing crazy numbers like 61/3 Like we've seen tankers. These scouts are running in and shotgunning 1-3 people in the back. And they're not getting out alive. You don't see it (you being dead and all) but 9 times out of 10 that scout that just ganked you is getting thoroughly ganked as you lye there raging about getting shot in the back. 30/15 isn't a great game.. It just means he ran try hard. I want pics, I want names. Who are these scouts that are so thoroughly bashing your heads in? Pics or it didn't happen. |
Yan Darn
Science For Death
435
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:59:00 -
[224] - Quote
Sana Rayya wrote:The ONLY reason why the cloak is currently OP is because you can perform certain actions like switching weapons and shooting, throwing grenades, meleeing, or switching to equipment, before the decloak animation is complete.
This could be easily solved by forcing you to go through the decloak animation before performing such actions, either by making it so only the FIRE button decloaks you, or making the animation mandatory before any of the other actions are initiated.
Therefore you could no longer kill an enemy who has line of sight on you unless he realizes you are there, as you MUST become visible prior to using your weapon/equipment/whatever.
Scouts are currently using the "shoot before decloak" to successfully surprise attack from the front. The above change forces them to attack from the back, which is how a scout should attack. But let's be real; in many cases where a frontal assault worked, the scout could simply have waited for you to pass by, decloaked, then killed you. You should not have a problem with this; this is good strategy, not an exploit or an OP tactic.
I take it you mean, pressing the swap weapon button, grenade button or selecting anything else off the wheel while cloaked - instead of instantly switching to whatever, it forces the same animation as if you pressed R1 to disengage cloak?
This makes perfect sense to me, because honestly; how many people, even when decloaking behind cover etc. press R1 to disengage cloak instead of just swap weapon: no one I bet - because the R1 animation takes longer to finish...
This is a solution I prefer over 'fuel' consumption for switching - that is almost the same as the fire while cloak mechanic that the CPM fought against in the first place.
Being ganked this way is what is 'upsetting' people - its irrelevant if that scout actually did anything to help the team; even if they go 10/10, if those 10 kills are cloak kills people will still claim OPness.
Any fast decloak to shooting mechanic will always cause QQ - it'll just lead to arguments over the recharge time and a whole lotta of other nerfs...
The Ghost of Bravo
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BIind Shot
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
75
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Posted - 2014.03.29 13:13:00 -
[225] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:I feel cloaks should behave more like camouflage, easy to miss if your not actually looking for it but totally recognizable if you are looking for it. Kind of like the Predator's cloak. I'm not fond of how you're essentially invisible when you stand still cloaked. No one is going to spot the virtually non-existent distortions, especially on dark maps. I feel cloaks should create a noticeable distortion when both standing still or moving without any shimmering, like the predator's cloak. As for cloaks persisting too well through damage, have to agree with Iron Wolf Saber. It's not fair to the guy who spots and shoots at a cloaked enemy. But it isn't fair for cloaked players who get hit by stray bullets either. There are some annoying bugs like where players can use their weapons while being cloaked indefinitely and being able to fire shots off before actually de-cloaking. I want cloaks in Dust514, but they could have done with more time in Santa's workshop getting it right.
You're never 100% invisible even standing still if you look close enough it's like seeing the heat rise from pavement or off the hood of a car. |
BIind Shot
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
75
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Posted - 2014.03.29 13:25:00 -
[226] - Quote
Selinate deux wrote:knight guard fury wrote:
its not broken, planetside 2 allows you to to cloak completely invisible and kill people right after decloaking, and recloak soon after.
cloaking should never replace the primary weapon because its not right and no other game has ever done it.
give me one game that does what you just said.
Oh ffs, so that's your logic? That's a **** poor train of logic and you should feel bad. "No one has ever done it so we can't do it either because if no one has done it then it must be bad!" That makes absolutely zero sense. And if it's so incredibly important to you to know of a game that's done it like that, planetside 1 did. Just because planetside 2 does it one way does not mean a single damn thing in a completely different game.
Unnerf the scrambler pistol and you have a deal. It's funny how no one thought of this when slayer logis were buttfucking everyone in the game.. Not to mention just a week ago how Gal logis could run 3 complex damage mods and armor plates galore. +25% damage and 900hp.. Where was the talk of taking away their primary weapon to put them in their place? Not to mention the sitting on repping nano's.. |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1149
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Posted - 2014.03.29 13:35:00 -
[227] - Quote
the problem i see with the cloak is not the cloak itself but how people use it. players are using the cloak as a defence rather than a tool to be used when the situation arises. i see scouts running all over the place cloaked when there are no enemies about and charging enemies knowing well that the enemy can see them move.
for me i use the cloak when i see an enemy not before(i would much rather be seen with my weapon out than seen with my cloak on) and i use the environment to my benefit using cloak to fill in gaps.
my view is dampened suits are the assassin suits and cloaked suits are the infiltration suits. you can't have the best of both worlds and expect it all to work
I will logi the s* out of you
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99075&find
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Scheneighnay McBob
Endless Hatred
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
4530
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Posted - 2014.03.29 14:02:00 -
[228] - Quote
There seems to be hit detection problems against cloak scouts.
This is from being both the person shooting and the scout being shot at.
I am your scan error.
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Heimdallr69
Heaven's Lost Property
1956
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Posted - 2014.03.29 16:16:00 -
[229] - Quote
http://youtu.be/t-RA17hVQLk
Thought I'd leave this here
Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2703
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Posted - 2014.03.29 19:41:00 -
[230] - Quote
deleted until further review
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2703
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Posted - 2014.03.29 19:45:00 -
[231] - Quote
Smooth Assassin wrote:Bricked tanked assault scouts with cloaks has to go.
cloaks has to go
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2703
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Posted - 2014.03.29 19:48:00 -
[232] - Quote
IgniteableAura wrote:Cloak is nearly perfect as is except the bugs
Adding any sort of disruption to the cloak will cause people to stop using it. A lucky tossed flux nade shouldn't do anything but ruin a scouts shields. Creating a new grenade to do so would be fine, but you shouldn't be getting two things for one grenade.
Weapon swap speed increases would just make it more cumbersome to use the cloak. It actually wouldn't probably effect ambush style tactics regardless of how long the swap length is....it would only effect the ability of scouts to "strike back" if someone starts shooting them while cloaked. Perhaps a "delay" should only happen when they are taking damage.
c'mon Aura.
Don't locus grenades do damage to both shields and armor? Why do we need an extra grenade to disrupt electrical equipment? It's like asking for another grenade to blow up drop uplinks and remote explosives.
weapon swap speed doesn't have to change but once you switch off from the cloak device, you should IMMEDIATELY decloak. There shouldn't even be an animation for it. I've been shot too many times from guys still decloaking.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2703
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Posted - 2014.03.29 19:50:00 -
[233] - Quote
Canari Elphus wrote:BlackWinter RND wrote:A big part of the problem to me right now is the spam of the cloak. I have one point into cloaks and that's all I plan on putting into them. I currently run de cloak and kill, and then re cloak and repeat. There's really no necessity to go higher. Cloaking right now is labeled as a piece of equipment but isn't treated as such. It shouldn't get special treatment. Like other pieces of equipment give it a set number of uses before it disables completely. This would make investing in it worth while since higher tiers would get more uses along with duration, and also kill them spam of it. Make scouts pick and choose when to cloak and be smart about the use of it. As of this moment it's kinda of like having droplinks with infinite spawns or nanohives that never run out of ammo or reps. I also think if you mange to hit a scout with a flux grenade it should destroy his cloak just like any other piece of equipment. The cloak is more classified as an 'active module' than a piece of deployable equipment. As stated, it falls under the same category as the active scanner, repair tool or nanite injector. I do agree that a flux should knock out its functionality though which would require to wait for cooldown.
And since it acts like an active scanner...it should cool down like it. Once you deactivate it, you should have to wait until the cooldown time is up....whether you used it for 60 secs or 6 secs. It should be exactly like any other active module in the game.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1991
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Posted - 2014.03.29 19:51:00 -
[234] - Quote
BIind Shot wrote:medomai grey wrote:I feel cloaks should behave more like camouflage, easy to miss if your not actually looking for it but totally recognizable if you are looking for it. Kind of like the Predator's cloak. I'm not fond of how you're essentially invisible when you stand still cloaked. No one is going to spot the virtually non-existent distortions, especially on dark maps. I feel cloaks should create a noticeable distortion when both standing still or moving without any shimmering, like the predator's cloak. As for cloaks persisting too well through damage, have to agree with Iron Wolf Saber. It's not fair to the guy who spots and shoots at a cloaked enemy. But it isn't fair for cloaked players who get hit by stray bullets either. There are some annoying bugs like where players can use their weapons while being cloaked indefinitely and being able to fire shots off before actually de-cloaking. I want cloaks in Dust514, but they could have done with more time in Santa's workshop getting it right. You're never 100% invisible even standing still if you look close enough it's like seeing the heat rise from pavement or off the hood of a car.
Against the right background you can be 100% invisible. If there was more than one color in the shimmer at a different brightness then your statement would be true.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2704
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Posted - 2014.03.29 20:09:00 -
[235] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:BIind Shot wrote:medomai grey wrote:I feel cloaks should behave more like camouflage, easy to miss if your not actually looking for it but totally recognizable if you are looking for it. Kind of like the Predator's cloak. I'm not fond of how you're essentially invisible when you stand still cloaked. No one is going to spot the virtually non-existent distortions, especially on dark maps. I feel cloaks should create a noticeable distortion when both standing still or moving without any shimmering, like the predator's cloak. As for cloaks persisting too well through damage, have to agree with Iron Wolf Saber. It's not fair to the guy who spots and shoots at a cloaked enemy. But it isn't fair for cloaked players who get hit by stray bullets either. There are some annoying bugs like where players can use their weapons while being cloaked indefinitely and being able to fire shots off before actually de-cloaking. I want cloaks in Dust514, but they could have done with more time in Santa's workshop getting it right. You're never 100% invisible even standing still if you look close enough it's like seeing the heat rise from pavement or off the hood of a car. Against the right background you can be 100% invisible. If there was more than one color in the shimmer at a different brightness then your statement would be true.
even if it were true....is that what this fps has come to? We have to run around an entire objective looking for steam emanating from the ground before we hack an objective?
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
RND's recruitment official phrase
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
857
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Posted - 2014.03.29 20:13:00 -
[236] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:BIind Shot wrote:medomai grey wrote:I feel cloaks should behave more like camouflage, easy to miss if your not actually looking for it but totally recognizable if you are looking for it. Kind of like the Predator's cloak. I'm not fond of how you're essentially invisible when you stand still cloaked. No one is going to spot the virtually non-existent distortions, especially on dark maps. I feel cloaks should create a noticeable distortion when both standing still or moving without any shimmering, like the predator's cloak. As for cloaks persisting too well through damage, have to agree with Iron Wolf Saber. It's not fair to the guy who spots and shoots at a cloaked enemy. But it isn't fair for cloaked players who get hit by stray bullets either. There are some annoying bugs like where players can use their weapons while being cloaked indefinitely and being able to fire shots off before actually de-cloaking. I want cloaks in Dust514, but they could have done with more time in Santa's workshop getting it right. You're never 100% invisible even standing still if you look close enough it's like seeing the heat rise from pavement or off the hood of a car. Against the right background you can be 100% invisible. If there was more than one color in the shimmer at a different brightness then your statement would be true. even if it were true....is that what this fps has come to? We have to run around an entire objective looking for steam emanating from the ground before we hack an objective?
Before every one used a scanner to see everyone through walls hill etc in a arc of 100m did this take any skill? The thing is as long as there is a stealh suit we need stealth play.
And your recticle still turns red when you move over a cloaked scout. And to be honest I rarely had issues with them. Most tomes a cloaked scout killed me they outplayed me and I deserved the death. I I got eye on them they normally die... |
Scout Registry
Nos Nothi
1811
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:06:00 -
[237] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
1) Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
2) Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
3) Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux
4) Cloak Noise
5) Decloak to weapon swap speed
6) Cloak timer at prototype
7) Cloaked hacking
8) Brick Tanked Cloakers
o7
1) Agree. Fix bugs.
2) Disagree. Painfully easy to spot unless stationary and/or in shadows.
3) Disagree. Blue shimmer. Red reticule. Shoot. Get +50.
4) Disagree. On / Off is sufficiently noisy.
5) Don't know yet, but instantaneous would be bad.
6) Who uses Prototype Cloak? Little point beyond Advanced.
7) No problem here.
8) * Possibly a problem ...
* Would advise against adjusting fitting cloak costs. Fitting decent gear alongside a cloak is already tough. If a tweak proves to be in order, I'd recommend binding degree of shimmer effect to armor value such that Less Armor = Less Shimmer. |
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
956
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:15:00 -
[238] - Quote
my thread
cloaks dont need to be nerfed or anything, but they do need slight tweaking to be more "fixed"
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
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BIind Shot
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
78
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:16:00 -
[239] - Quote
Scout Registry wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
1) Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
2) Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
3) Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux
4) Cloak Noise
5) Decloak to weapon swap speed
6) Cloak timer at prototype
7) Cloaked hacking
8) Brick Tanked Cloakers
9) Any Others?
o7 1) Agree. Fix bugs. 2) Disagree. Painfully easy to spot unless stationary and/or in shadows. 3) Disagree. Blue shimmer. Red reticule. Shoot. Get +50. 4) Disagree. On / Off is sufficiently noisy. 5) Don't know yet, but instantaneous would be bad. 6) Who uses Prototype Cloak? Little point beyond Advanced. 7) No problem here. 8) * Possibly a problem ... 9) Shimmer isn't bound to movement speed; its either slight or severe (lacks gradation). * Would advise against adjusting cloak fitting costs. Fitting decent gear alongside a cloak is already tough. If a tweak proves to be in order, I'd recommend binding degree of shimmer effect to armor value such that Less Armor = Less Shimmer.
Minjas have the hardest difficulty equipping their fits. CPM if you talk to the devs about nerfing ALL scout suits or the fitting requirements for cloak please take this into consideration.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=152280&find=unread |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13933
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:18:00 -
[240] - Quote
I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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knight guard fury
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:23:00 -
[241] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message.
scouts dont need to be nerfed in any way, and cloaks are totally fine beisedes a few bugs and delays.
if you still want to "nerf" the cloaks then please take a look at my thread please
my thread
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
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Scout Registry
Nos Nothi
1813
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:25:00 -
[242] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message.
Exactly correct, good sir, and thank you :-) |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:25:00 -
[243] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message.
Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with???
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
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BIind Shot
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:28:00 -
[244] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message. Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with???
You troll. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13936
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:31:00 -
[245] - Quote
For those of you wondering how I played scout before the update I was what you can call a flanker/recon scout type. I ran around the edges of combat looking for folks trying to take back routes, slackers, and kill snipers with hack things and blowing up equipment behind the front lines.
It was bad before when I can run up to people and stab them in the temples without them noticing me until it was too late, cloaks have made this game style FAR more empowered because I don't have to run around and away as far when it comes to circling the fight. Less time wasted running more time screwing up the back lines. I am no vanguard scout like appia and the likes but I have ran into those types and they're very hard to deal with as well considering how cloaks can be hard to spot for and if they're paying attention to you they can avoid detection mostly on semi open hilly terrain and they're not the only target of interest in the area.
Hunting cloakers down is not something one can seemingly spec into doing and its a hard style to pick up. Maybe if I get my gal logi back up (still short 6 million isk on books) I can try messing around with scanning.
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Ydubbs81 RND
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:33:00 -
[246] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:BIind Shot wrote:medomai grey wrote:I feel cloaks should behave more like camouflage, easy to miss if your not actually looking for it but totally recognizable if you are looking for it. Kind of like the Predator's cloak. I'm not fond of how you're essentially invisible when you stand still cloaked. No one is going to spot the virtually non-existent distortions, especially on dark maps. I feel cloaks should create a noticeable distortion when both standing still or moving without any shimmering, like the predator's cloak. As for cloaks persisting too well through damage, have to agree with Iron Wolf Saber. It's not fair to the guy who spots and shoots at a cloaked enemy. But it isn't fair for cloaked players who get hit by stray bullets either. There are some annoying bugs like where players can use their weapons while being cloaked indefinitely and being able to fire shots off before actually de-cloaking. I want cloaks in Dust514, but they could have done with more time in Santa's workshop getting it right. You're never 100% invisible even standing still if you look close enough it's like seeing the heat rise from pavement or off the hood of a car. Against the right background you can be 100% invisible. If there was more than one color in the shimmer at a different brightness then your statement would be true. even if it were true....is that what this fps has come to? We have to run around an entire objective looking for steam emanating from the ground before we hack an objective? Before every one used a scanner to see everyone through walls hill etc in a arc of 100m did this take any skill? The thing is as long as there is a stealh suit we need stealth play. And your recticle still turns red when you move over a cloaked scout. And to be honest I rarely had issues with them. Most tomes a cloaked scout killed me they outplayed me and I deserved the death. I I got eye on them they normally die...
The spammer scan didn't require any skil either and I hated it as well. And I like the scanner nerf that we have now....but the difference though was that complex dampeners were the hard counter to scanners.
Before there was team vision, then they nerfed to squad vision..which is ok. Scouts don't need to be invisible to be stealthy. Being invisible is just a cheesy mechanic. Now, if it's going to be in the game anyway, then at least make it right. Saying there is no issues with cloaking right now is just ridiculous. Players shouldn't have the ability to run forever and play the whole match invisible. Doesn't matter if it's with a shimmer or not. And they should decloak once the jig is up and they've been shot. I don't see how you guys can argue this.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13936
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:33:00 -
[247] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message. Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with???
No. Just those in agreement get put into queue faster. Those in disagreement takes more evidence, reasoning and time to override my opinion. Most of those I have disagree with have generally failed to meet criteria, such as prototype tanks. Ones meeting criteria, Respecs for 1.8.
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Ydubbs81 RND
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:35:00 -
[248] - Quote
BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message. Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with??? You troll.
It's a serious question....I'm dead serious because I wonder what these CPMs are actually saying to these devs. I feel like they are only pushing for **** that they agree with even if most of the community doesn't.
CCP should just leave everything to a community vote like they did with the current sp system.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
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Ydubbs81 RND
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:36:00 -
[249] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message. Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with??? No. Just those in agreement get put into queue faster. Those in disagreement takes more evidence, reasoning and time to override my opinion. Most of those I have disagree with have generally failed to meet criteria, such as prototype tanks. Ones meeting criteria, Respecs for 1.8.
UNBELIEVABLE.........so you have confirmed my suspicions!
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
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mollerz
3064
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:36:00 -
[250] - Quote
I don't get why anything aside from the glitches needs to get changed. It seems like changing and weakening just because.
Why not wait and look at the figures CCP says it collects. If scout K/D goes up tremendously.. fine there is an issue. But if it only goes up marginally then we can all agree there is no problems necessitating nerfing.
Right?
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knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
957
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:36:00 -
[251] - Quote
im just gonna repost my thread in here
my thread
i know many people are QQ'ing about the new cloaks we have, but to be honest cloaks aren't as powerful as you think they are and if you think about it compared to other games, we have the most balanced cloak out of/compared to other games.
i have a few ideas on how they can tweak it but not in the way so its not nerfed in the ground.
CCP will eventually fix the cloaked weapon glitch and will no longer be a problem.
*for one, flux's shouldn't disturb the cloaks timer or make it disappear completely, i think it should make the cloak shimmer for a certain amount of time like 5-10 seconds.
*also dmg should not unlcoak a scout
some people disagree with the cool-down/recharge rate. i understand but its not totally necessary.
*if you think the regeneration rate is too low then the cool-down rate should only be raised by 5-15 seconds so it takes slightly longer to completely come back to full.
i dont get how a lot of you guys say you can't see them, they are incredibly easy to see when/if you happen too see or notice one.
i have actually took the time to just watch an ambush with a sniper fit and observe carefully. i noticed that they have a lot of distortion and shimmer when running and sprinting.
* I have also noticed while observing that rarely any scout camps so i find that good to know.
*also, its not the fact that you cant see them, but the fact that they always get to where you dont see them while they uncloak.
brick tanking scouts can be a problem, but they can always be dealt with.
*any body has the ability to brick tank but totally is up to them and not a specific module. i have noticed that i have only met brick tanked scouts in the "american" server but when i went to the EU server it was totally easy going and not as "deadly" as our server.
i dont think so but some people say proto cloaks last too long, but on the other hand prototype should always have the best stats about it, as long as it not too powerful or strange.
*at the least i have thought of a simple tweak for that, instead of 80 keep the basic at 30, change the ADV to 45, and make the prototype variant 60 seconds.
*there is nothing wrong with cloaked hacking
the uncloak speed is only a bit slow but that can be tweaked correctly if ccp does it right.
* CCP could tweak the uncloak mechanic to be faster so weapon swapping isnt faster than uncloaking.
the cloak noise doesnt seem like a problem IMO, and doesnt seem like it needs working.
IMHO, i think cloaks shouldnt be tweaked besides a few glitches, and the weapon swap being faster than the uncloak itself. one way i have gotten use to scouts is by watching them in ambush and just obesrving how they look and what they do while cloaked to gewt a general idea of how they would attack me. ccp probaly have already thought about certain changes to the cloak since everyone is QQ'ing about it but what they do is based on what we QQ about so oh well.
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13936
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:36:00 -
[252] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message. Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with??? You troll. It's a serious question....I'm dead serious because I wonder what these CPMs are actually saying to these devs. I feel like they are only pushing for **** that they agree with even if most of the community doesn't. CCP should just leave everything to a community vote like they did with the current sp system.
You mean the roll over system everyone voted for and still not implemented?
LOL
Still pushing for that by the way.
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Ydubbs81 RND
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:39:00 -
[253] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message. Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with??? You troll. It's a serious question....I'm dead serious because I wonder what these CPMs are actually saying to these devs. I feel like they are only pushing for **** that they agree with even if most of the community doesn't. CCP should just leave everything to a community vote like they did with the current sp system. You mean the roll over system everyone voted for and still not implemented? LOL Still pushing for that by the way.
Whether or not CCP has implemented has nothing to do with the fact that the community agreed on it and not some corrupt CPM looking to push only his ideas.
What we have now is what we voted for but are still waiting for CCP to program the rest.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13937
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:43:00 -
[254] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message. Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with??? No. Just those in agreement get put into queue faster. Those in disagreement takes more evidence, reasoning and time to override my opinion. Most of those I have disagree with have generally failed to meet criteria, such as prototype tanks. Ones meeting criteria, Respecs for 1.8. UNBELIEVABLE.........so you have confirmed my suspicions!
Sorry but there are those in the community who:
wanted tanks to die in one plasma cannon shot,
think that prototype suits need immunity from militia,
keyboard controls are fine, (they're not),
wants prototype tanks despite how unkillable before hardener change previous vehicles could achieve,
thinks dom 1.0 is perfect,
Planetary Conquest was fine,
wants cloaks removed,
wants heavies removed,
wants all vehicles removed,
list goes on.
Trust me I can easily be the worst cpm pushing all the worst of ideas available.
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mollerz
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:46:00 -
[255] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel'
This might go down as a worse suggestion than scouts losing their grenade slot.
Why are you meddling with **** that isn't fixed, and also hasn't been out for any length of time whatsoever. Is this CPM being a bureaucracy or what? Trying to seem useful? How about putting this much fervor into fixing bugs? Adding content? You know the sprinting glitch still exists, and it happens when you first cloak now as well.
Scout Reg laid out the exact facts of cloaking as it exists in game right now. It makes no sense to change it because it actually works like a cloak. CCP finally has scouts down pat. Really well done.
It's not time to fix what isn't broken. It is time to fix what is actually broken. Drop the nerf campaign and go on bug hunts.
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Ydubbs81 RND
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:46:00 -
[256] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message. Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with??? No. Just those in agreement get put into queue faster. Those in disagreement takes more evidence, reasoning and time to override my opinion. Most of those I have disagree with have generally failed to meet criteria, such as prototype tanks. Ones meeting criteria, Respecs for 1.8. UNBELIEVABLE.........so you have confirmed my suspicions! Sorry but there are those in the community who: wanted tanks to die in one plasma cannon shot, think that prototype suits need immunity from militia, keyboard controls are fine, (they're not), wants prototype tanks despite how unkillable before hardener change previous vehicles could achieve, thinks dom 1.0 is perfect, Planetary Conquest was fine, wants cloaks removed, wants heavies removed, wants all vehicles removed, list goes on. Trust me I can easily be the worst cpm pushing all the worst of ideas available.
You don't push every single idea to the CPM....you just push what the majority agrees on whether you agree or not. Your opinion is just one of the many as a regular player. Everyone's vote shouldn't equate to 1 while yours or any other CPM's vote equates to 1000
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13937
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:48:00 -
[257] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
You don't push every single idea to the CPM....you just push what the majority agrees on whether you agree or not. Your opinion is just one of the many as a regular player. Everyone's vote shouldn't equate to 1 while yours or any other CPM's vote equates to 1000
Forums are a super minority vs the entire player base though and that's fact.
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knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:50:00 -
[258] - Quote
u ignoring my post IWS
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:52:00 -
[259] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:u ignoring my post IWS
I am trying to keep quiet on most of the discussion points to not alter it too much need much raw input as possible, I am reading, just digesting the information.
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Regis Blackbird
DUST University
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:55:00 -
[260] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:
*for one, flux's shouldn't disturb the cloaks timer or make it disappear completely, i think it should make the cloak shimmer for a certain amount of time like 5-10 seconds.
*also dmg should not unlcoak a scout
^ this I fully agree with!
As stated earlier in the thread, I also think a small cloak activation cost will make the Rambo rapid cloak -> firing -> cloak (etc) still possible but very inefficient. It would not penalize single use like dropping uplinks, take out a straggler or traverse an area. |
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Ydubbs81 RND
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:02:00 -
[261] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
You don't push every single idea to the CPM....you just push what the majority agrees on whether you agree or not. Your opinion is just one of the many as a regular player. Everyone's vote shouldn't equate to 1 while yours or any other CPM's vote equates to 1000
Forums are a super minority vs the entire player base though and that's fact. Secondly; who's side do I take? the loudest or most reasonable? They prototype hav committee makes more trash posts and threads demanding for such devices and nobody has ever really started a thread saying no to prototype tanks, it just doesn't happen.
Forums are a super minority but why does your opinion outweighs everyone else's that comes to the forums? Your own personal opinion doesn't reflect the entire player base either.
When companies do their surveys, do they use one person's opinion or do they take a selected number of people for their control group? Although 100% of the community do not come to the forums....those that do is a better reflection than one man's opinion.
Secondly, you take the side which has the most supporters. I could be 1 out of 100 people asking for sights to weapons and gun customization. The other 99 could be against it with silly arguments for why there shouldn't be full gun customization. You still have to push for no gun customization because that better reflects the community's opinion.
Not to mention that who determines who's "most reasonable"???
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2704
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:03:00 -
[262] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:u ignoring my post IWS
It doesn't matter what you post.....cause if he disagrees, he's not pushing for it.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13943
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:05:00 -
[263] - Quote
Rusty Shallows wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:snip
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus.
snip The innate fitting skill reduction looks really good. It could mess with fitting mobility mods on my Minja but I can live with that. I'm not sure if it is possible but splitting the bonus into two could work. Keep the current saved value for CPU, slash x percent from the saved PG. It could work so long as neither extenders or plates get pg reductions in the future. If there is a goal to restrict cloaks from other classes then increase the all cloak fitting costs. If it isn't then don't do it. The current CPU/PG feel right when I look at them with a Medium Frame. Iron Wolf Saber wrote:snip
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet. Thanks for the heads-up. I don't even run Assaults and it's a concern.
Cloaks are not intended to be scouts only according to CCP.
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:05:00 -
[264] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Couple dozen threads an hour is making it hard for me to keep up with so here's where I am garnering so far.
*Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
I will agree these need to be fixed.
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
*Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux
I agree but a full disruption punishes pure blind luck of stray shots that can happen as well. I rather see a few tweaks instead such as cloak timer draining because of damage and longer lasting cloak scattering because of damage.
As for flux, I would like to see a massive chuck eaten out of the timer with it (scaled to the flux damage maybe?)
*Cloak Noise
Maybe for self sound its a bit too loud and out of balance but as a third person its balanced.
*Decloak to weapon swap speed
Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time.
*Cloak timer at prototype
80 seconds is an eternity waiting for it to recharge. I think a second variant of cloaks is warranted, something with 30 second timer across all tiers and faster cooldown efficiency.
*Cloaked hacking
I see no problems currently with this.
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus. While we could go after the tanking modules themselves that's going to effect ALL classes and that would get more messy than needed.
=Anything else did I miss?=
Will update points and discussion if new things are brought to my attention. I know with the 1.8 patch then 1.8 hotfix this week and the follow up tonight and possibly more on the way lots of crap flying around and my time is split between paying attention to you guys and working with fanfest build. My opinion on cloaks right now is not hardline and easily subject to change which is why I am striking up this conversation.
OT posts will not be tolerated. I know vehicle rebalancing just hit but I feel that there hasn't been enough time to adapt around it yet to see if more follow ups are needed or if they went overboard.
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet. Other balance issues are on the fire still but rather focus on this before we get too far away from 1.8 hotfix mood and far too deep into the next patch cycle.
i think cloaks need to recharge to full capacity after over heating
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:06:00 -
[265] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:snip
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus.
snip The innate fitting skill reduction looks really good. It could mess with fitting mobility mods on my Minja but I can live with that. I'm not sure if it is possible but splitting the bonus into two could work. Keep the current saved value for CPU, slash x percent from the saved PG. It could work so long as neither extenders or plates get pg reductions in the future. If there is a goal to restrict cloaks from other classes then increase the all cloak fitting costs. If it isn't then don't do it. The current CPU/PG feel right when I look at them with a Medium Frame. Iron Wolf Saber wrote:snip
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet. Thanks for the heads-up. I don't even run Assaults and it's a concern. Cloaks are not intended to be scouts only according to CCP.
hmmm yes cloaked tanks and force recon dropships
Frowned upon by amateurs: The object of war is not to die for your country but make the other bastard die for his. GSP
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BIind Shot
Dirt Nap Squad
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79
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:07:00 -
[266] - Quote
Regis Blackbird wrote:knight guard fury wrote:
*for one, flux's shouldn't disturb the cloaks timer or make it disappear completely, i think it should make the cloak shimmer for a certain amount of time like 5-10 seconds.
*also dmg should not unlcoak a scout
^ this I fully agree with! As stated earlier in the thread, I also think a small cloak activation cost will make the Rambo rapid cloak -> firing -> cloak (etc) still possible but very inefficient. It would not penalize single use like dropping uplinks, take out a straggler or traverse an area.
If a lucky flux kills my cloak and my shields I'm left with 70 armor and no cover.. That's enough to last 1/10th of a second of fire from any weapon. Might as well have it finish me and save me the stroke. |
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:07:00 -
[267] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:snip
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus.
snip The innate fitting skill reduction looks really good. It could mess with fitting mobility mods on my Minja but I can live with that. I'm not sure if it is possible but splitting the bonus into two could work. Keep the current saved value for CPU, slash x percent from the saved PG. It could work so long as neither extenders or plates get pg reductions in the future. If there is a goal to restrict cloaks from other classes then increase the all cloak fitting costs. If it isn't then don't do it. The current CPU/PG feel right when I look at them with a Medium Frame. Iron Wolf Saber wrote:snip
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet. Thanks for the heads-up. I don't even run Assaults and it's a concern. Cloaks are not intended to be scouts only according to CCP.
trust me, scoutss arent the only ones using them. ive seen many proto suits use them.
i even use them on my proto amarr assault alt and its very useful
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mollerz
3069
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:10:00 -
[268] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:knight guard fury wrote:u ignoring my post IWS It doesn't matter what you post.....cause if he disagrees, he's not pushing for it.
One thing about IWS, he does listen to and for reasonable discussion. He spent a lot of time with us scouts, and it was greatly appreciated. Plus, he's actually a fun dude to have chip in on the inanity.
BUT~! I really wish he'd change his focus to getting bugs fixed and improving UI vs nerf campaigns. One thing that has been proven time and time again, is that CCP doesn't even really listen to the CPM anyways.
I think CCP is on a really good path finally, and 1.9 is looking up. I hope they move forward versus too much tinkering with stuff they get right.
You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2705
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:10:00 -
[269] - Quote
BIind Shot wrote:Regis Blackbird wrote:knight guard fury wrote:
*for one, flux's shouldn't disturb the cloaks timer or make it disappear completely, i think it should make the cloak shimmer for a certain amount of time like 5-10 seconds.
*also dmg should not unlcoak a scout
^ this I fully agree with! As stated earlier in the thread, I also think a small cloak activation cost will make the Rambo rapid cloak -> firing -> cloak (etc) still possible but very inefficient. It would not penalize single use like dropping uplinks, take out a straggler or traverse an area. If a lucky flux kills my cloak and my shields I'm left with 70 armor and no cover.. That's enough to last 1/10th of a second of fire from any weapon. Might as well have it finish me and save me the stroke.
If a scout gets hit by a flux..then it's the scouts own fault. People throw fluxes at enemies they see in front of them. Scouts are supposed to flank..
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2705
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:11:00 -
[270] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:knight guard fury wrote:u ignoring my post IWS It doesn't matter what you post.....cause if he disagrees, he's not pushing for it. One thing about IWS, he does listen to and for reasonable discussion. He spent a lot of time with us scouts, and it was greatly appreciated. Plus, he's actually a fun dude to have chip in on the inanity. BUT~! I really wish he'd change his focus to getting bugs fixed and improving UI vs nerf campaigns. One thing that has been proven time and time again, is that CCP doesn't even really listen to the CPM anyways. I think CCP is on a really good path finally, and 1.9 is looking up. I hope they move forward versus too much tinkering with stuff they get right.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1999870#post1999870
I can sit and listen to your concerns just as much. What I do after that, you won't know.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1992
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:13:00 -
[271] - Quote
Something else I'm not sure has been said yet, but you really don't need cloaks for stealthy gameplay. Day one of 1.8 I skilled an alt into gal scout with an HK4M shotgun (never trained any skills for it) and a basic cloak. I didn't need the cloak to be stealthy. The fact of the matter was that I was already effectively invisible because I wasn't on the radar. All I had to do was detect the bad guys and, since I know what direction they're facing, make sure I was standing behind something when they looked my way. Then when they would walk my way I'd hit the cloak, let them pass and then follow them to a spot where I'd ambush them. I even did this against 3 guys at once and killed two of them before the last guy took me down because I tried to kill him too instead of jumping over something and recloaking. On a character with around 4 million total SP. I had like 300 hp on that suit at most. I didn't need the cloak to do that, I could have just shot him in the head with my shotgun at point blank range as soon as he came into view. I used the cloak to make it easier to set up that kind of ambush.
This is how I imagine cloaks were meant to be used. Not the invisible ninjas who are decimating whole firing lines of guys who are themselves taking cover from enemy fire, by using the cloak as a get out of jail free card. The very cover they're using makes it impossible for them to kill a scout before he recloaks and continues his rampage. There is simply *no* counter to them. The only thing that could come remotely close is another scout, crammed to the gills with precision enhancers so that you have warning that something is behind your line. Add in the ability to tank like a front line fighter and you may as well make an entire team out of scouts at this point. That's how unbalanced they are. |
GVGMODE
WorstPlayersEver
163
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:15:00 -
[272] - Quote
Personally I think this is the main problem... 1 second delay would be more than perfect.
Quote:*Decloak to weapon swap speed
Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time
Pilot: (Tanks / Assault Dropships)
Skype: GVGMODE
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13946
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:17:00 -
[273] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
You don't push every single idea to the CPM....you just push what the majority agrees on whether you agree or not. Your opinion is just one of the many as a regular player. Everyone's vote shouldn't equate to 1 while yours or any other CPM's vote equates to 1000
Forums are a super minority vs the entire player base though and that's fact. Secondly; who's side do I take? the loudest or most reasonable? They prototype hav committee makes more trash posts and threads demanding for such devices and nobody has ever really started a thread saying no to prototype tanks, it just doesn't happen. Forums are a super minority but why does your opinion outweighs everyone else's that comes to the forums? Your own personal opinion doesn't reflect the entire player base either. When companies do their surveys, do they use one person's opinion or do they take a selected number of people for their control group? Although 100% of the community do not come to the forums....those that do is a better reflection than one man's opinion. Secondly, you take the side which has the most supporters. I could be 1 out of 100 people asking for sights to weapons and gun customization. The other 99 could be against it with silly arguments for why there shouldn't be full gun customization. You still have to push for no gun customization because that better reflects the community's opinion. Not to mention that who determines who's "most reasonable"???
My opinion is one of cpm; if you disagree with my views find another cpm that will; CPM Nova Knife is the most polar opposite of me in terms of stances on topics. I am more of a tuning fork that intelligent thoughtful and reasonable members of the community can strike a proper tune with. I reverberate their stances. I have nearly pitched for all play styles so far and suffered as they has as a player.
If you feel your voice is getting drowned out draw a truely good case for your own cause or find someone who can make that case for you really well and support them the best you can; CCP community team will pick it up. Those people you support typically become community leaders the CPM do listen to and often these folks wind up becoming nearly or if not cpm themselves. Poor cases and poor passion is the reason why so many issues go mostly ignored or get defeated easily.
Polls are an ultra minority with less than 0.0% of the community involved usually; let me ask what was the last poll you filled out? Last poll had less than 120 participants involved.
As for community driven changes done by other companies ask SOE's roadmap; plenty of negative score items getting developed first over the items that received multiple hundreds in the score.
Or worse yet the polls are poorly constructed; for example FFXIV ARR asked about what kind of new race players would like to see and one poll result was excessively overwhelming because it mentioned the bunny girls from ffxii. When in fact yoshi (creative director) wanted something more draconian and despite the poll results it seems the new race will be draconian like.
Hell there was one poll sent out by the Eve online team that errored out if you answered you where a female game on the poll declaring you were done with the survey.
CPM 0 Secretary
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13947
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:20:00 -
[274] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:knight guard fury wrote:u ignoring my post IWS It doesn't matter what you post.....cause if he disagrees, he's not pushing for it. One thing about IWS, he does listen to and for reasonable discussion. He spent a lot of time with us scouts, and it was greatly appreciated. Plus, he's actually a fun dude to have chip in on the inanity. BUT~! I really wish he'd change his focus to getting bugs fixed and improving UI vs nerf campaigns. One thing that has been proven time and time again, is that CCP doesn't even really listen to the CPM anyways. I think CCP is on a really good path finally, and 1.9 is looking up. I hope they move forward versus too much tinkering with stuff they get right.
There are topics I don't touch because of the nature of next and upcoming rendering the fight invalid.
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mollerz
3069
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:25:00 -
[275] - Quote
I get that, but his actions speak to me. He walked the walk and talked the talk in the scout forum.
What more do you want from the guy? He isn't saying anything outrageous. it's completely logical, and what a decent representative would do. That is how politics work.
You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
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mollerz
3070
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:33:00 -
[276] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
There are topics I don't touch because of the nature of next and upcoming rendering the fight invalid.
Well, okay then. lol.
But can you just drop the nerf campaign until:
1- Bugs/glitches are fixed witht he cloak.
2- There is a reasonable amount of time after the fixes to eveluate the numbers.
3- try not to make the cloak useless. Keep in mind, we already had a big debate/discussion about cloaks. And this cloak is what was negotiated. And to my surprise, it is a well thought out puzzle piece that fits into the scout role tha tis actually tactically useful.
Adding more restrictions than we already conceded only serves to mess that all up.
It adds a much deeper layer to the game that it sorely needed. It makes squading up more important. And to that end, it makes the concept of roles within a squad that much more deep. before everyone was basically a slayer. The only thing you needed to accomplish that was a proto fotm squad. Now, scouts are almost necessary on a squad. Before they were just a fringe hard mode suit. The cloak, as is, only serves to hammer that into a necessity. If you nerf it now, you take the game back a couple steps to the fotm vanilla lobbby shooter it has been for too long.
You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
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Minor Treat
The Enclave Syndicate
Dark Taboo
198
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:36:00 -
[277] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Paran Tadec wrote:I have found some issues. Naturally, those without gun game will complain about any changes to cloak.
However, I have proposed a few changes that should make cloak more balanced/skill based:
1. Either fix the decloaking animation to be faster, or add a delay on offensive capabilities other than hacking. ie, you have to fully decloak to fire. This is striaght from Eve. Allow the time to fire to decrease per level.
2. Lower the stupidly high uptime of the cloak and add a mandatory downtime. Such that, you can just one shot someone from behind and cloak, repeat, and take on multiple people. It'll force scout to chose targets smarter. Again, depending on SP investment, this can be lowered per level.
3. Heavily increase the fitting reqs for cloaks and give scouts a bonus that only allows them to fit them. Cloaks in Dust are essentially covert ops cloaks from Eve. Other cloaks in eve dont allow you to move very fast at all.
4. Decloak mandatory on flux. Cloak field shimmer on taking damage from other weapons.
Do this and cloak will still be powerful and fun. I could work with these.
I totally agree with this statement. |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2707
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:40:00 -
[278] - Quote
mollerz wrote:I get that, but his actions speak to me. He walked the walk and talked the talk in the scout forum. What more do you want from the guy? He isn't saying anything outrageous. it's completely logical, and what a decent representative would do. That is how politics work.
"walked the walk and talked the talk"..what does that even mean in regards to what ideas he pushes to CCP.
"What more do I want...?" I want him to be impartial.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2707
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:43:00 -
[279] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
You don't push every single idea to the CPM....you just push what the majority agrees on whether you agree or not. Your opinion is just one of the many as a regular player. Everyone's vote shouldn't equate to 1 while yours or any other CPM's vote equates to 1000
Forums are a super minority vs the entire player base though and that's fact. Secondly; who's side do I take? the loudest or most reasonable? They prototype hav committee makes more trash posts and threads demanding for such devices and nobody has ever really started a thread saying no to prototype tanks, it just doesn't happen. Forums are a super minority but why does your opinion outweighs everyone else's that comes to the forums? Your own personal opinion doesn't reflect the entire player base either. When companies do their surveys, do they use one person's opinion or do they take a selected number of people for their control group? Although 100% of the community do not come to the forums....those that do is a better reflection than one man's opinion. Secondly, you take the side which has the most supporters. I could be 1 out of 100 people asking for sights to weapons and gun customization. The other 99 could be against it with silly arguments for why there shouldn't be full gun customization. You still have to push for no gun customization because that better reflects the community's opinion. Not to mention that who determines who's "most reasonable"??? My opinion is one of cpm; if you disagree with my views find another cpm that will; CPM Nova Knife is the most polar opposite of me in terms of stances on topics. I am more of a tuning fork that intelligent thoughtful and reasonable members of the community can strike a proper tune with. I reverberate their stances. I have nearly pitched for all play styles so far and suffered as they has as a player. If you feel your voice is getting drowned out draw a truely good case for your own cause or find someone who can make that case for you really well and support them the best you can; CCP community team will pick it up. Those people you support typically become community leaders the CPM do listen to and often these folks wind up becoming nearly as influential or if not cpm themselves. Poor cases and poor passion is the reason why so many issues go mostly ignored or get defeated easily. There are people with very similar voice weight as the cpm save for the fact they don't have NDAs is the only thing separating the cpm from those great individuals. Polls are an ultra minority with less than 0.0% of the community involved usually; let me ask what was the last poll you filled out? Last poll had less than 120 participants involved. As for community driven changes done by other companies ask SOE's roadmap; plenty of negative score items getting developed first over the items that received multiple hundreds in the score. Or worse yet the polls are poorly constructed; for example FFXIV ARR asked about what kind of new race players would like to see and one poll result was excessively overwhelming because it mentioned the bunny girls from ffxii. When in fact yoshi (creative director) wanted something more draconian and despite the poll results it seems the new race will be draconian like. Hell there was one poll sent out by the Eve online team that errored out if you answered you where a female gamer on the poll declaring you were done with the survey.
The only poll that I'm aware of that was of major importance was the sp one. When there's a big enough issue people get the word out to vote. The vote for the skill point system was a good example of it.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13952
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 22:43:00 -
[280] - Quote
Look, my overall goal is to keep cloaks fun but fair.
There are a few glitches but I am pretending they're not existing for the sake of the discussion.
The thing is though the whole issue is that I am not trying to turn this into a fun vs fair discussion but trying to make it so that it remains fun AND fair.
Right now there is are many potential possible changes but one wrong acted change WILL result cloaks becoming unfair and unfun.
A bad example; the cloak slowdown suggested by one of the posters would make cloaks unfun and unfair as a cloaker to be hampered with. There are no run+ modules in this game only sprint+ there is also no skill to reduce shimmer or the like under high stress situations either just hurts cloaking overall into making it a useless tool.
There are dozens of ways the cloak can be adjusted while remaining fun. For example and example only; the consumption of cloak charge while getting damaged could increase fun on both sides as it will reward cloak hunters for finding a cloaked person and causing damage to them forcing at least a retreat or exposure. Cloakers will get the 'oh shoot' moments and will have to react or die if they ignore. The game play still remains mostly the same for the cloaker but now the counter cloakers game feels a bit more fair and fun breaking cloaks.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10181
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:44:00 -
[281] - Quote
No problems with cloaks. Tanked scouts are a problem only because medium frames now are lacking my comparison.
[Request] Medium frame (basic/assault/logistics) changes
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: UPDATE:The 6 at STD, 7 at ADV, 8 at PRO mod slot plan would make mediums competitive, & slayer brick-tanked scouts won't be able to out-tank and outperform medium frames at their own jobs. There is no need to nerf scouts, simply raise mod slot count on medium suits and the brick-tanked scouts won't be an issue.There are big problems with the medium frame slot layouts that need to be addressed. "Too long; didn't read" (TL;DR) version on post 2 (click here). [Assault & logistics issues] Slayer logi issue originates from the logis to tank more HP than their assault counterparts, allowing them to be more survivable killing platforms. This problem won't truly go away until the slots are handled correctly, just right now brick-tank scouts are bigger issue. Logis sacrifice sidearms, mobility, & base HP in exchange for for 2-3 more equipment (equip) slots than their assault counterparts. That seems like a fair deal, but on top of the 2 or 3 more equip slots, there is some crazy weirdness with the slot layouts that leads to imbalance. - At standard (STD) tier all logis (with the odd exception of the Amarr (Am) one) have inferior module (mod) slot layouts compared to the STD assault counterparts. - Advanced (ADV) tier logis either get equal or superior mod slot layouts compared to their ADV assault counterparts. - Prototype (PRO) tier logis all gain an extra low slot than their PRO assault counterpart, the caldari one also gains an extra high slot also. Summary: logis underpowered (UP) at STD tier, balanced or overpowered (OP) at ADV, & all OP at PRO.
No reason for the Caldari (Cal) logi only having 2 equip at STD instead of 3; it isn't gaining anything extra compared to other STD logis or its assault counterpart for the sacrifice. The STD Cal logi is UP even compared to the other UP STD logis.
There is also the issue of the Am medium slot layouts. 1.8 has Am mediums shifting from hybrid tanking (equal shields & armor) to predominantly having armor; this requires a slot layout change of more low slots for effective armor tanking. Right now the progression of Am mediums is odd, they start with more high slots (2 at militia (MLT) & STD).
Am assault has less mod slots than other assaults. Yes it has a tiny 30 more base HP than the Caldari and Gallente assault, a small advantage already countered by being the slowest assault. It should be noted that the Am scout, Am sentinel, & Am commando also has more base HP compared to the other races' dropsuits of the same roles, yet these other Am suits aren't forced to give up a slot; they shouldn't have to give up a slot, and neither should the Am assault since the extra HP is already balanced by the speed loss. This problem makes the Am assault suffer the most from the brick-tanked scout problem, since the Am scout has more mod slots at STD-ADV than the assault, and same mod slot count at PRO; this allows the Am scout to surpass the Am assault in HP, while being faster, having a 2nd equip, stealthier, etc.
[Basic medium frame issues] Give basic frames a purpose, in 1.8 there is 36 STD-PRO basic frames; way too many suits in the game to have be completely useless; useless because they're inferior versions of the specialized suits (ex: assaults, scouts, etc), & they can't even be used as a way to save money since they cost the same as the specialized suits; there is no reason to use a basic frame after unlocking specialization. We should never have 36 items that are worthless. For more on the basic frame issue go here. Basic mediums should be generalized middle-ground between the assault & logi, it would make the assault truly specialized by comparison instead of just being basic frames with bonuses added. It would also give players the ability to test-drive both assault & logi roles before specializing; right now you can test out the assault role with a basic medium, but can't test a logi role with their parent basic frame. Current set up is bad for testing roles. [Solution] Part 1: assault & logi Give the Cal logistics 3 equip slots at STD. Also 4 equip at PRO (reduce mod slot from 9 to 8 in exchange).
Give all assaults the same number of mod slots.
Equalize the mod slot layouts for assaults & logis of the same race & tier:
Assault & logi STD (high/low) Am: 2/4 Ga: 2/4 Ca: 4/2 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 3/3 Assault & logi ADV Am: 2/5 Ga: 3/4 Ca: 5/2 Min: 4/3 Assault & logi PRO Am: 3/5 Ga: 3/5 Ca: 5/3 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 4/4 Part 2: basic medium framesTo fix the aforementioned issue, basic medium frames should have: One more equip for a total of 2; this is why the Cal & Am STD logis should have at least 3 to start out with, it is to differentiate them from my proposed basic mediums.
1 less mod slot than their assault & logi counterparts. This is a tradeoff for more mod slots.
Basic medium MLT (high/low/equip) Am: 2/2/2 Ga: 1/3/2 Ca: 3/1/2 Min: 2/1/2 Basic medium STD Am: 2/3/2 Ga: 2/3/2 Ca: 3/2/2 Min: 3/2/2 Basic medium ADV Am: 2/4/2 Ga: 2/4/2 Ca: 4/2/2 Min: 3/3/2 Basic medium PRO Am: 3/4/2 Ga: 2/5/2 Ca: 5/2/2 Min: 4/3/2
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2707
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:45:00 -
[282] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Something else I'm not sure has been said yet, but you really don't need cloaks for stealthy gameplay. Day one of 1.8 I skilled an alt into gal scout with an HK4M shotgun (never trained any skills for it) and a basic cloak. I didn't need the cloak to be stealthy. The fact of the matter was that I was already effectively invisible because I wasn't on the radar. All I had to do was detect the bad guys and, since I know what direction they're facing, make sure I was standing behind something when they looked my way. Then when they would walk my way I'd hit the cloak, let them pass and then follow them to a spot where I'd ambush them. I even did this against 3 guys at once and killed two of them before the last guy took me down because I tried to kill him too instead of jumping over something and recloaking. On a character with around 4 million total SP. I had like 300 hp on that suit at most. I didn't need the cloak to do that, I could have just shot him in the head with my shotgun at point blank range as soon as he came into view. I used the cloak to make it easier to set up that kind of ambush.
.
Exactly it......people are acting as if they need cloaking to be stealthy. You can't see scouts on your radar as it is...especially since the scanner nerf. Cloaking has just allowed people to be cheesy..running around invisible for 15 mins
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13952
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:46:00 -
[283] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:Something else I'm not sure has been said yet, but you really don't need cloaks for stealthy gameplay. Day one of 1.8 I skilled an alt into gal scout with an HK4M shotgun (never trained any skills for it) and a basic cloak. I didn't need the cloak to be stealthy. The fact of the matter was that I was already effectively invisible because I wasn't on the radar. All I had to do was detect the bad guys and, since I know what direction they're facing, make sure I was standing behind something when they looked my way. Then when they would walk my way I'd hit the cloak, let them pass and then follow them to a spot where I'd ambush them. I even did this against 3 guys at once and killed two of them before the last guy took me down because I tried to kill him too instead of jumping over something and recloaking. On a character with around 4 million total SP. I had like 300 hp on that suit at most. I didn't need the cloak to do that, I could have just shot him in the head with my shotgun at point blank range as soon as he came into view. I used the cloak to make it easier to set up that kind of ambush.
. Exactly it......people are acting as if they need cloaking to be stealthy. You can't see scouts on your radar as it is...especially since the scanner nerf. Cloaking has just allowed people to be cheesy..running around invisible for 15 mins
There are scanner bugs it seems though waiting on fixes for those.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2707
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:46:00 -
[284] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:No problems with cloaks. Tanked scouts are a problem only because medium frames
[/quote]
how are tanked scouts a problem and not cloaks?? This is a facepalm position to have.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2707
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:47:00 -
[285] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:Something else I'm not sure has been said yet, but you really don't need cloaks for stealthy gameplay. Day one of 1.8 I skilled an alt into gal scout with an HK4M shotgun (never trained any skills for it) and a basic cloak. I didn't need the cloak to be stealthy. The fact of the matter was that I was already effectively invisible because I wasn't on the radar. All I had to do was detect the bad guys and, since I know what direction they're facing, make sure I was standing behind something when they looked my way. Then when they would walk my way I'd hit the cloak, let them pass and then follow them to a spot where I'd ambush them. I even did this against 3 guys at once and killed two of them before the last guy took me down because I tried to kill him too instead of jumping over something and recloaking. On a character with around 4 million total SP. I had like 300 hp on that suit at most. I didn't need the cloak to do that, I could have just shot him in the head with my shotgun at point blank range as soon as he came into view. I used the cloak to make it easier to set up that kind of ambush.
. Exactly it......people are acting as if they need cloaking to be stealthy. You can't see scouts on your radar as it is...especially since the scanner nerf. Cloaking has just allowed people to be cheesy..running around invisible for 15 mins There are scanner bugs it seems though waiting on fixes for those.
what bugs? I'm glad scanners got nerfed into oblivion. Big time crutch.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13952
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:47:00 -
[286] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:No problems with cloaks. Tanked scouts are a problem only because medium frames
how are tanked scouts a problem and not cloaks?? This is a facepalm position to have. [/quote]
hypocrite
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Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13952
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:48:00 -
[287] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:Something else I'm not sure has been said yet, but you really don't need cloaks for stealthy gameplay. Day one of 1.8 I skilled an alt into gal scout with an HK4M shotgun (never trained any skills for it) and a basic cloak. I didn't need the cloak to be stealthy. The fact of the matter was that I was already effectively invisible because I wasn't on the radar. All I had to do was detect the bad guys and, since I know what direction they're facing, make sure I was standing behind something when they looked my way. Then when they would walk my way I'd hit the cloak, let them pass and then follow them to a spot where I'd ambush them. I even did this against 3 guys at once and killed two of them before the last guy took me down because I tried to kill him too instead of jumping over something and recloaking. On a character with around 4 million total SP. I had like 300 hp on that suit at most. I didn't need the cloak to do that, I could have just shot him in the head with my shotgun at point blank range as soon as he came into view. I used the cloak to make it easier to set up that kind of ambush.
. Exactly it......people are acting as if they need cloaking to be stealthy. You can't see scouts on your radar as it is...especially since the scanner nerf. Cloaking has just allowed people to be cheesy..running around invisible for 15 mins There are scanner bugs it seems though waiting on fixes for those. what bugs? I'm glad scanners got nerfed into oblivion. Big time crutch.
Sorry but all manners of people do complain to me about every issue not just on the cloak subject.
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knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
959
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:58:00 -
[288] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:Something else I'm not sure has been said yet, but you really don't need cloaks for stealthy gameplay. Day one of 1.8 I skilled an alt into gal scout with an HK4M shotgun (never trained any skills for it) and a basic cloak. I didn't need the cloak to be stealthy. The fact of the matter was that I was already effectively invisible because I wasn't on the radar. All I had to do was detect the bad guys and, since I know what direction they're facing, make sure I was standing behind something when they looked my way. Then when they would walk my way I'd hit the cloak, let them pass and then follow them to a spot where I'd ambush them. I even did this against 3 guys at once and killed two of them before the last guy took me down because I tried to kill him too instead of jumping over something and recloaking. On a character with around 4 million total SP. I had like 300 hp on that suit at most. I didn't need the cloak to do that, I could have just shot him in the head with my shotgun at point blank range as soon as he came into view. I used the cloak to make it easier to set up that kind of ambush.
. Exactly it......people are acting as if they need cloaking to be stealthy. You can't see scouts on your radar as it is...especially since the scanner nerf. Cloaking has just allowed people to be cheesy..running around invisible for 15 mins There are scanner bugs it seems though waiting on fixes for those. what bugs? I'm glad scanners got nerfed into oblivion. Big time crutch.
scanners arent worthless they just require more sp to invest to be decent
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2707
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:59:00 -
[289] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:Something else I'm not sure has been said yet, but you really don't need cloaks for stealthy gameplay. Day one of 1.8 I skilled an alt into gal scout with an HK4M shotgun (never trained any skills for it) and a basic cloak. I didn't need the cloak to be stealthy. The fact of the matter was that I was already effectively invisible because I wasn't on the radar. All I had to do was detect the bad guys and, since I know what direction they're facing, make sure I was standing behind something when they looked my way. Then when they would walk my way I'd hit the cloak, let them pass and then follow them to a spot where I'd ambush them. I even did this against 3 guys at once and killed two of them before the last guy took me down because I tried to kill him too instead of jumping over something and recloaking. On a character with around 4 million total SP. I had like 300 hp on that suit at most. I didn't need the cloak to do that, I could have just shot him in the head with my shotgun at point blank range as soon as he came into view. I used the cloak to make it easier to set up that kind of ambush.
. Exactly it......people are acting as if they need cloaking to be stealthy. You can't see scouts on your radar as it is...especially since the scanner nerf. Cloaking has just allowed people to be cheesy..running around invisible for 15 mins There are scanner bugs it seems though waiting on fixes for those. what bugs? I'm glad scanners got nerfed into oblivion. Big time crutch. Sorry but all manners of people do complain to me about every issue not just on the cloak subject.
What are you apologizing for? I'm just asking what bugs do the scanners have because I'm not aware of it. I used it to see the changes and I saw the changes as CCP stated.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2707
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:03:00 -
[290] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:No problems with cloaks. Tanked scouts are a problem only because medium frames
how are tanked scouts a problem and not cloaks?? This is a facepalm position to have. hypocrite
Where's the hypocrisy?
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13956
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:03:00 -
[291] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
What are you apologizing for? I'm just asking what bugs do the scanners have because I'm not aware of it. I used it to see the changes and I saw the changes as CCP stated.
For?
Why should I explain the bugs when the first words out of your mouth was declaration you don't care for scanner's plight? Maybe someone else will be nicer to explain what is current broken with them.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10183
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:04:00 -
[292] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:No problems with cloaks. Tanked scouts are a problem only because medium frames
how are tanked scouts a problem and not cloaks?? This is a facepalm position to have. [/quote]
Cloaks do what they're supposed to do, I don't know what you expect. They're pretty easy to spot while moving, and they don't allow you to use your weapon (without a bug, which will be fixed anyway).
Tanked scouts however are an issue because they can reach 700+ HP while still being faster, stealthier, better passive scanners, and having a 2nd equipment slot. They make assaults completely obsolete. While it is a problem, I don't think the issue is to keep scouts from being to tank HP; the game is about customizing your fit to be what you want to be, so if you want to tank your scout, you should be able to, this is why I think a better route would be to buff and change medium frame slot layouts so they won't be outdone at their own role by scouts.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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AfroSunshineY Consequence
R 0 N 1 N
273
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:04:00 -
[293] - Quote
If you want to fix this problem, if you consider it that, you need to make it so that cloaking is an either or proposition. People who are asking for even more slots on Assault and Logi suits are absolutely out of control. As a scout, pre-1.8, it was true - you could be "stealthy" but no more stealthy than any other suit in the game. It's true that on SOME radars you wouldn't show up, but most suits had a scan radius of 10 or something pre-1.8. So nobody used passive scanning anyway. They relied on their eyes. And scouts were just as visible as they've any other suit in that situation. Compound on to that OP rifles like the RR, CR, AR and SR (the latter two OP to a scout with 250 eHP) and scouts were needlessly slaughtered. We weren't (and aren't) fast enough to get away and we had no real method of actual "stealth". We could be sneaky, but we could be sneaky in a gallente assault suit with more slots, more PG and more CPU and more base armor and shields. The cloak was supposed to even the battle field. Scouts would still be squishy, but at least, if they were smart, they had a functional game mechanic that could help them overcome their inherent disadvantages. (for instance, if you're defending a point that suddenly gets overrun, you can hide, cloak, passive scan and wait for the opposing squad to leave before undoing their work - simple, annoying, efficient scouting).
The problem is "scouts" with 200 shields and 750 armor. I don't like these people. They're not now, nor have they ever been real scouts. They are assault holdovers from 1.7 who used to role in a gallente logi with 5 complex armor plates and damage modifiers up the wazoo. Now, they're fully brick tanked, running around in a cloak and are abusing, destroying, tarnishing everything the scout community has waited SO INCREDIBLY LONG for. They will inevitably say that "this is new eden", "all's fair" "it's a valid fitting" --- but everyone knows you're just abusing the game mechanic because you've invested so much of yourself in your KD/R that you don't care if you ruin the game for everyone so long as you protect your win button. Seriously.
That is why I am suggesting that fittings in which a cloak is used have a 50 to 75% reduction in armor and shield mod efficacy. brick tanking won't be a real issue then. Real scouts can continue to fight - not as light assault suits, but as paper-tin, invisible, fast, menaces on the battle field. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13956
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:07:00 -
[294] - Quote
AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote:If you want to fix this problem, if you consider it that, you need to make it so that cloaking is an either or proposition. People who are asking for even more slots on Assault and Logi suits are absolutely out of control. As a scout, pre-1.8, it was true - you could be "stealthy" but no more stealthy than any other suit in the game. It's true that on SOME radars you wouldn't show up, but most suits had a scan radius of 10 or something pre-1.8. So nobody used passive scanning anyway. They relied on their eyes. And scouts were just as visible as they've any other suit in that situation. Compound on to that OP rifles like the RR, CR, AR and SR (the latter two OP to a scout with 250 eHP) and scouts were needlessly slaughtered. We weren't (and aren't) fast enough to get away and we had no real method of actual "stealth". We could be sneaky, but we could be sneaky in a gallente assault suit with more slots, more PG and more CPU and more base armor and shields. The cloak was supposed to even the battle field. Scouts would still be squishy, but at least, if they were smart, they had a functional game mechanic that could help them overcome their inherent disadvantages. (for instance, if you're defending a point that suddenly gets overrun, you can hide, cloak, passive scan and wait for the opposing squad to leave before undoing their work - simple, annoying, efficient scouting).
The problem is "scouts" with 200 shields and 750 armor. I don't like these people. They're not now, nor have they ever been real scouts. They are assault holdovers from 1.7 who used to role in a gallente logi with 5 complex armor plates and damage modifiers up the wazoo. Now, they're fully brick tanked, running around in a cloak and are abusing, destroying, tarnishing everything the scout community has waited SO INCREDIBLY LONG for. They will inevitably say that "this is new eden", "all's fair" "it's a valid fitting" --- but everyone knows you're just abusing the game mechanic because you've invested so much of yourself in your KD/R that you don't care if you ruin the game for everyone so long as you protect your win button. Seriously.
That is why I am suggesting that fittings in which a cloak is used have a 50 to 75% reduction in armor and shield mod efficacy. brick tanking won't be a real issue then. Real scouts can continue to fight - not as light assault suits, but as paper-tin, invisible, fast, menaces on the battle field.
I like people who think and see the bigger meta that is evolving.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2707
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:07:00 -
[295] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
What are you apologizing for? I'm just asking what bugs do the scanners have because I'm not aware of it. I used it to see the changes and I saw the changes as CCP stated.
For? Why should I explain the bugs when the first words out of your mouth was declaration you don't care for scanner's plight? Maybe someone else will be nicer to explain what is current broken with them.
Then don't explain it.....I adapted to it last build and I'm happy it's in the tank now. Anything in between will make no difference to me.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
736
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:14:00 -
[296] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote:If you want to fix this problem, if you consider it that, you need to make it so that cloaking is an either or proposition. People who are asking for even more slots on Assault and Logi suits are absolutely out of control. As a scout, pre-1.8, it was true - you could be "stealthy" but no more stealthy than any other suit in the game. It's true that on SOME radars you wouldn't show up, but most suits had a scan radius of 10 or something pre-1.8. So nobody used passive scanning anyway. They relied on their eyes. And scouts were just as visible as they've any other suit in that situation. Compound on to that OP rifles like the RR, CR, AR and SR (the latter two OP to a scout with 250 eHP) and scouts were needlessly slaughtered. We weren't (and aren't) fast enough to get away and we had no real method of actual "stealth". We could be sneaky, but we could be sneaky in a gallente assault suit with more slots, more PG and more CPU and more base armor and shields. The cloak was supposed to even the battle field. Scouts would still be squishy, but at least, if they were smart, they had a functional game mechanic that could help them overcome their inherent disadvantages. (for instance, if you're defending a point that suddenly gets overrun, you can hide, cloak, passive scan and wait for the opposing squad to leave before undoing their work - simple, annoying, efficient scouting).
The problem is "scouts" with 200 shields and 750 armor. I don't like these people. They're not now, nor have they ever been real scouts. They are assault holdovers from 1.7 who used to role in a gallente logi with 5 complex armor plates and damage modifiers up the wazoo. Now, they're fully brick tanked, running around in a cloak and are abusing, destroying, tarnishing everything the scout community has waited SO INCREDIBLY LONG for. They will inevitably say that "this is new eden", "all's fair" "it's a valid fitting" --- but everyone knows you're just abusing the game mechanic because you've invested so much of yourself in your KD/R that you don't care if you ruin the game for everyone so long as you protect your win button. Seriously.
That is why I am suggesting that fittings in which a cloak is used have a 50 to 75% reduction in armor and shield mod efficacy. brick tanking won't be a real issue then. Real scouts can continue to fight - not as light assault suits, but as paper-tin, invisible, fast, menaces on the battle field.  I like people who think and see the bigger meta that is evolving.
I'm glad you like a horrible idea. Come on, this tank issue has been around forever with logis and nothing was ever done about it. People from eve ***** and wine about dual tanking for whatever dumb reason.
The real issue is balance among the various mods. The basic armour plate is way to cheap CPU / PG wise as others have stated. Some of the non hp modules are way to expensive. The shield extenders scale horribly. Fix the mods.
...
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2708
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:15:00 -
[297] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:No problems with cloaks. Tanked scouts are a problem only because medium frames
how are tanked scouts a problem and not cloaks?? This is a facepalm position to have. Cloaks do what they're supposed to do, I don't know what you expect. They're pretty easy to spot while moving, and they don't allow you to use your weapon (without a bug, which will be fixed anyway). Tanked scouts however are an issue because they can reach 700+ HP while still being faster, stealthier, better passive scanners, and having a 2nd equipment slot. They make assaults completely obsolete. While it is a problem, I don't think the issue is to keep scouts from being to tank HP; the game is about customizing your fit to be what you want to be, so if you want to tank your scout, you should be able to, this is why I think a better route would be to buff and change medium frame slot layouts so they won't be outdone at their own role by scouts.
Cloaks can still do what they're meant to do without having to make a player invisible for the whole game...or acting like a force field.
ARs, CRs, etc did what they were supposed to as well. They killed you...yet the community yelled for a nerf and received it. That applies to most nerfs that this game has seen.
As far as suits being restricted to what they were designed for...the only suit restricted is the assault suit. You can still be a logi/slayer, scout/slayer, and even heavies running around with ARs and RRs, etc. Brick tanking or not, I don't believe scouts were meant to be cqc slayers. Yet that's how they all play...its all hypocritical
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10183
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:18:00 -
[298] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:No problems with cloaks. Tanked scouts are a problem only because medium frames
how are tanked scouts a problem and not cloaks?? This is a facepalm position to have. Cloaks do what they're supposed to do, I don't know what you expect. They're pretty easy to spot while moving, and they don't allow you to use your weapon (without a bug, which will be fixed anyway). Tanked scouts however are an issue because they can reach 700+ HP while still being faster, stealthier, better passive scanners, and having a 2nd equipment slot. They make assaults completely obsolete. While it is a problem, I don't think the issue is to keep scouts from being to tank HP; the game is about customizing your fit to be what you want to be, so if you want to tank your scout, you should be able to, this is why I think a better route would be to buff and change medium frame slot layouts so they won't be outdone at their own role by scouts.
@Ydubbs81 RND: I would also like to add that if you disagree with someone, you should explain why you disagree in a reasonable way instead of just claiming their position is "facepalm".
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10183
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:27:00 -
[299] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:No problems with cloaks. Tanked scouts are a problem only because medium frames
how are tanked scouts a problem and not cloaks?? This is a facepalm position to have. Cloaks do what they're supposed to do, I don't know what you expect. They're pretty easy to spot while moving, and they don't allow you to use your weapon (without a bug, which will be fixed anyway). Tanked scouts however are an issue because they can reach 700+ HP while still being faster, stealthier, better passive scanners, and having a 2nd equipment slot. They make assaults completely obsolete. While it is a problem, I don't think the issue is to keep scouts from being to tank HP; the game is about customizing your fit to be what you want to be, so if you want to tank your scout, you should be able to, this is why I think a better route would be to buff and change medium frame slot layouts so they won't be outdone at their own role by scouts. Cloaks can still do what they're meant to do without having to make a player invisible for the whole game...or acting like a force field. ARs, CRs, etc did what they were supposed to as well. They killed you...yet the community yelled for a nerf and received it. That applies to most nerfs that this game has seen. As far as suits being restricted to what they were designed for...the only suit restricted is the assault suit. You can still be a logi/slayer, scout/slayer, and even heavies running around with ARs and RRs, etc. Brick tanking or not, I don't believe scouts were meant to be cqc slayers. Yet that's how they all play...its all hypocritical
Not sure what you mean by force field.
I also don't understand the purpose of that last statement about assaults being limited. Are you against my proposal to buff the module slots of medium frames, and to keep logis from having more modules than assaults?
6 module slots standard, 7 at advanced, 8 at proto for both assaults and logis, logis less base HP and equal slots would keep them from having higher HP than assaults. Also would keep the gap of HP between brick-tanked slayer scouts and medium suits large enough that they can't steal an assaults role.
Not really sure what you mean by assault suits being restricted. You could put kinkats and dampeners and be a stealth assault, you can rick-tank to be closer to a heavy, you can use a repair tool and be a support player, so I don't know what you mean by assaults being restricted. My slot proposal would only increase that freedom for assaults.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Scout Registry
Nos Nothi
1819
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:29:00 -
[300] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
ARs, CRs, etc did what they were supposed to as well. They killed you...yet the community yelled for a nerf and received it. That applies to most nerfs that this game has seen.
On the topic of nerf, consider the following Win Buttons:
* Tac AR (~3 months)
* Core Flaylock (~3 months)
* Cal Logi (~6 months)
* Gal Logi (~6 months)
* HAV (~4 months)
* Fine Rifles (~12 months)
Are you seriously going to compare Cloak to these?
These items were broken. Some were obscenely broken.
Indeed, Cloak could use minor adjustments here and there
But it isn't broken. And it certainly doesn't belong in this list. |
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13960
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:30:00 -
[301] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
What are you apologizing for? I'm just asking what bugs do the scanners have because I'm not aware of it. I used it to see the changes and I saw the changes as CCP stated.
For? Why should I explain the bugs when the first words out of your mouth was declaration you don't care for scanner's plight? Maybe someone else will be nicer to explain what is current broken with them. Then don't explain it.....I adapted to it last build and I'm happy it's in the tank now. Anything in between will make no difference to me.
And I no longer see the value in hearing your voice anymore; you lack respect, advocacy, awareness, humility and knowledge, or willingness to understand. You then continue to show high levels of selfishness, disrespect for fellow community members, understanding of the establishment of the community team and CPM and their functions, and finally I am going to take you as someone who is going to cry like a baby to the entire community about not representing you but instead you replace word 'you' with the word 'community.'
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13960
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:31:00 -
[302] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote:If you want to fix this problem, if you consider it that, you need to make it so that cloaking is an either or proposition. People who are asking for even more slots on Assault and Logi suits are absolutely out of control. As a scout, pre-1.8, it was true - you could be "stealthy" but no more stealthy than any other suit in the game. It's true that on SOME radars you wouldn't show up, but most suits had a scan radius of 10 or something pre-1.8. So nobody used passive scanning anyway. They relied on their eyes. And scouts were just as visible as they've any other suit in that situation. Compound on to that OP rifles like the RR, CR, AR and SR (the latter two OP to a scout with 250 eHP) and scouts were needlessly slaughtered. We weren't (and aren't) fast enough to get away and we had no real method of actual "stealth". We could be sneaky, but we could be sneaky in a gallente assault suit with more slots, more PG and more CPU and more base armor and shields. The cloak was supposed to even the battle field. Scouts would still be squishy, but at least, if they were smart, they had a functional game mechanic that could help them overcome their inherent disadvantages. (for instance, if you're defending a point that suddenly gets overrun, you can hide, cloak, passive scan and wait for the opposing squad to leave before undoing their work - simple, annoying, efficient scouting).
The problem is "scouts" with 200 shields and 750 armor. I don't like these people. They're not now, nor have they ever been real scouts. They are assault holdovers from 1.7 who used to role in a gallente logi with 5 complex armor plates and damage modifiers up the wazoo. Now, they're fully brick tanked, running around in a cloak and are abusing, destroying, tarnishing everything the scout community has waited SO INCREDIBLY LONG for. They will inevitably say that "this is new eden", "all's fair" "it's a valid fitting" --- but everyone knows you're just abusing the game mechanic because you've invested so much of yourself in your KD/R that you don't care if you ruin the game for everyone so long as you protect your win button. Seriously.
That is why I am suggesting that fittings in which a cloak is used have a 50 to 75% reduction in armor and shield mod efficacy. brick tanking won't be a real issue then. Real scouts can continue to fight - not as light assault suits, but as paper-tin, invisible, fast, menaces on the battle field. I like people who think and see the bigger meta that is evolving. I'm glad you like a horrible idea. Come on, this tank issue has been around forever with logis and nothing was ever done about it. People from eve ***** and wine about dual tanking for whatever dumb reason. The real issue is balance among the various mods. The basic armour plate is way to cheap CPU / PG wise as others have stated. Some of the non hp modules are way to expensive. The shield extenders scale horribly. Fix the mods.
I said nothing about the liking the idea, I said I like the person behind it.
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Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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Yan Darn
Science For Death
442
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:50:00 -
[303] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote:If you want to fix this problem, if you consider it that, you need to make it so that cloaking is an either or proposition. People who are asking for even more slots on Assault and Logi suits are absolutely out of control. As a scout, pre-1.8, it was true - you could be "stealthy" but no more stealthy than any other suit in the game. It's true that on SOME radars you wouldn't show up, but most suits had a scan radius of 10 or something pre-1.8. So nobody used passive scanning anyway. They relied on their eyes. And scouts were just as visible as they've any other suit in that situation. Compound on to that OP rifles like the RR, CR, AR and SR (the latter two OP to a scout with 250 eHP) and scouts were needlessly slaughtered. We weren't (and aren't) fast enough to get away and we had no real method of actual "stealth". We could be sneaky, but we could be sneaky in a gallente assault suit with more slots, more PG and more CPU and more base armor and shields. The cloak was supposed to even the battle field. Scouts would still be squishy, but at least, if they were smart, they had a functional game mechanic that could help them overcome their inherent disadvantages. (for instance, if you're defending a point that suddenly gets overrun, you can hide, cloak, passive scan and wait for the opposing squad to leave before undoing their work - simple, annoying, efficient scouting).
The problem is "scouts" with 200 shields and 750 armor. I don't like these people. They're not now, nor have they ever been real scouts. They are assault holdovers from 1.7 who used to role in a gallente logi with 5 complex armor plates and damage modifiers up the wazoo. Now, they're fully brick tanked, running around in a cloak and are abusing, destroying, tarnishing everything the scout community has waited SO INCREDIBLY LONG for. They will inevitably say that "this is new eden", "all's fair" "it's a valid fitting" --- but everyone knows you're just abusing the game mechanic because you've invested so much of yourself in your KD/R that you don't care if you ruin the game for everyone so long as you protect your win button. Seriously.
That is why I am suggesting that fittings in which a cloak is used have a 50 to 75% reduction in armor and shield mod efficacy. brick tanking won't be a real issue then. Real scouts can continue to fight - not as light assault suits, but as paper-tin, invisible, fast, menaces on the battle field. I like people who think and see the bigger meta that is evolving.
That idea is pretty bad though - its only regular armour plates that are an issue - ferroscales and reactives are expensive enough for what they do. Shield tanking is only a 'threat' on Cal scouts - and that is only used because the Assaults are in such a bad position, not because it is OP or unbalanced in anyway really.
Really, balancing regular armour plating would ease this problem and so many others...
EDIT:'Sorry, just seen above post.
The Ghost of Bravo
|
Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
1067
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 00:02:00 -
[304] - Quote
The problem is that the current meta favors health over stealth. Increasing armor penalties would help, but a better fix would be increasing the pg requirements of them. As it stands, extenders and plates are even in pg cost. Boost this, and gal scouts won't be able to fit much else if they stack plates.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
Fixed link.
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13971
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 00:03:00 -
[305] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote:If you want to fix this problem, if you consider it that, you need to make it so that cloaking is an either or proposition. People who are asking for even more slots on Assault and Logi suits are absolutely out of control. As a scout, pre-1.8, it was true - you could be "stealthy" but no more stealthy than any other suit in the game. It's true that on SOME radars you wouldn't show up, but most suits had a scan radius of 10 or something pre-1.8. So nobody used passive scanning anyway. They relied on their eyes. And scouts were just as visible as they've any other suit in that situation. Compound on to that OP rifles like the RR, CR, AR and SR (the latter two OP to a scout with 250 eHP) and scouts were needlessly slaughtered. We weren't (and aren't) fast enough to get away and we had no real method of actual "stealth". We could be sneaky, but we could be sneaky in a gallente assault suit with more slots, more PG and more CPU and more base armor and shields. The cloak was supposed to even the battle field. Scouts would still be squishy, but at least, if they were smart, they had a functional game mechanic that could help them overcome their inherent disadvantages. (for instance, if you're defending a point that suddenly gets overrun, you can hide, cloak, passive scan and wait for the opposing squad to leave before undoing their work - simple, annoying, efficient scouting).
The problem is "scouts" with 200 shields and 750 armor. I don't like these people. They're not now, nor have they ever been real scouts. They are assault holdovers from 1.7 who used to role in a gallente logi with 5 complex armor plates and damage modifiers up the wazoo. Now, they're fully brick tanked, running around in a cloak and are abusing, destroying, tarnishing everything the scout community has waited SO INCREDIBLY LONG for. They will inevitably say that "this is new eden", "all's fair" "it's a valid fitting" --- but everyone knows you're just abusing the game mechanic because you've invested so much of yourself in your KD/R that you don't care if you ruin the game for everyone so long as you protect your win button. Seriously.
That is why I am suggesting that fittings in which a cloak is used have a 50 to 75% reduction in armor and shield mod efficacy. brick tanking won't be a real issue then. Real scouts can continue to fight - not as light assault suits, but as paper-tin, invisible, fast, menaces on the battle field. I like people who think and see the bigger meta that is evolving. That idea is pretty bad though - its only regular armour plates that are an issue - ferroscales and reactives are expensive enough for what they do. Shield tanking is only a 'threat' on Cal scouts - and that is only used because the Assaults are in such a bad position, not because it is OP or unbalanced in anyway really. Really, balancing regular armour plating would ease this problem and so many others... EDIT:'Sorry, just seen above post.
Of course, just the thinking that brought the idea is pretty valid. That assaults are simply outclassed by the scout class because of how people are using the meta. Though I am thinking that the whole brick tanking issue is something that is going to to needs discussion at this rate as it will start to become problematic (and the worst of the pre 1.8 predictions slowly come true)
The idea itself (while off the wall and rather unusual) was however itself not well thought out unfortunately. A simple exercise is asking 5 five times; and even allow full branching so you have five layers of why's answered. Also off wall ideas do bring up inspiration for others. For example in this case; what if sensors were nerfed instead while cloaked? You'll be running electronically blind similar to eve's mechanics.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
Poonmunch
Sanguis Defense Syndicate
829
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 00:06:00 -
[306] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Personally I think they did a fair job of balancing the cloak. Most tears come from oversaturation of the role due to it being new equipment. Anything seems ridiculous in high volumes. This is a new toy and everyone wants to play with it. I want to be very very sure nothing is done in classic CCP fashion as a ridiculous nerf due to the tears of the loud sections of our playerbase.
I agree that there should be different variants for different jobs and playstyles. The weapon switch in my opinion is about perfect. It's not too short and not too long. I think most people have problems with the cloaks and shotguns. For any other weapon that requires you to actually aim a little bit the decloak time is perfect.
Also we must consider that currently even the minmatar has a lot of trouble in the fitting department. An increase in cloak cost will make this suit which already has extremely HP even weaker and harder to fit. My question is should all scouts have similar fitting issues to the minmatar or should minmatar be brought up to the rest of the class?
It is probably easier to bring one suit/group of suits up to the level of the rest.
Munch
Minmatar Patriot (Level 7)
Dedicated Sniper
|
Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
11896
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 00:14:00 -
[307] - Quote
I haven't read the entirety of this thread, so it's probably come up, but:
Being able to fire immediately on decloaking is stupid. Being able to immediately nail someone with huge alpha from invisibility is not balanced.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
959
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 00:23:00 -
[308] - Quote
pyrex supports cloaking
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13980
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 00:39:00 -
[309] - Quote
So anyways weekend almost over time to focus the discussion a bit. (yes we're working against a clock in which I don't know the time line either here too btw)
We're still pending what to do with the cloaks but some of the changes won't be possible without code of course such as the damage drain if implemented is likely one of those that won't get hot fixed.
So changes if any should involve timers, scout bonuses, fitting of the cloak itself.
About brick tanks
I feel that overall the brick tank issue is bigger than everything here and in its own right deserves its own discussion however this topic is also rather large and may take a comprehensive look and pass thus not applicable in the near time hotfix period ccp is working with so far. So this is a discussion best saved for '1.9' development and not 1.8 hotfixing.
*Minmatar scout for the time being should be buffed in fitting to match freedom the other scouts enjoy (imo minmatar should have a bit more than most other suits)
Cloak Fitting
So with those off the table. We come to the cloak itself.
CCP stated they didn't want cloaks to be scout only tool.
They also stated that they don't want it to make it seem every scouts MUST fit a cloak as well.
These two are most likely going to restrict any changes in the cloak fitting itself
Which leads us to the scout bonus or scout fitting.
Scouts are enjoying the new freedoms they have and honestly I don't see the issue with this. Just as one person puts it a scout gives up nearly nothing to cloak. Only in the more extreme cases are scouts are forced to go tank (unfortunate result of the current imbalance of tank vs utility fitting) So I am a rather apprehensive about adjusting the scouts fitting; too much damage can occur.
So proposed change would be to the scout bonus to cloaks fit. To reduce from 15% to a percent to five lower. I know that something like 13% will look odd on the skill sheet but it works out at max levels with numbers like 70-65-60 for every percent marked down.
So I would like to see this debate continue on what to do with this.
The next more common issue that is greatly affecting game play is how fast one decloaks.
I am uncertain this is hotfix able to be honest and it's something to continue discussion on about as well.
You have to remember I am a stalker type scout back before cloaks came about; any changes to this will not effect my game style at all. Its the vanguard (front line fighters) that will have the most issues as they often have to decloak in front of enemies pointing guns at them and I am terrible at that role. I know how frustrating the game used to be when you commanded a weapon swap and it there was a time delay in the swap I don't want that feeling to return. But I also want to give attentive and hunter players the chance to drop on the scout or reflex on the scout and possibly come out on top.
There is also the the speed of the decloak not matching the time to action. While I am unsure what change it would do for the non cloakers the non cloakers think its going to save them. (based on the killing I've been seeing it won't) I guess the point here is that there is a frustration of people getting killed by invisible people.
I see no harm in fixing the glitch and possible the intended portion of the time to action decloak speed.
cloak shimmer rate
overall a more minor issue but even then I don't think one can achieve a hotfix with this as well.
Cloak Charge
Overall this doesn't seem hotfix able when you involve damage prospects. Maybe for 1.9 but for now I don't see it being a feasible trait to add without a ptch.
What can change is the rate of recharge and consumption.
There isn't much discussion about it but a good cloaker can manage their chargers for a very long time and I am afraid to bring any changes to this outside of new variants but I would like to hear more talks about it such as 1 second cloak = 1.5 second charge or the like.
Stealthiness
Cloaks are considered very powerful stealth tools able to dodge a number of scans, while scanners await their fix there is now the debate should cloaks provide any stealthing? Overall I am fine with it as is as it allows dedicated hunters to beat lower cloaks and the like but the entire system needs a rewrite that absolutions are no longer the case (that being nearer a weaker scanner increases risk of detection for example) The number behind the stealthiness could be change but not the mechanics surrounding it. I would like to see more discussion on this as well.
So TL;DR
Off the table.
*Minmatar fitting underpar should be forwarded, let ccp figure the numbers out for that.
*Brick Tanking is off the table. Better suited for 1.9 discussion due to size and complexity of subject
*Cloak Charge bar being externally altered by other players.
*Potential Shimmer
*Cloak Stealth Mechanics
On the table
*Cloak fitting is on the table still.
*Cloak decloak speed.
*Cloak charge rate internally
*Cloak electronic stealth value
Updated Op with change in discussion.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
959
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 00:41:00 -
[310] - Quote
IWS check pyrex's 1.8 review. he is great at judging patches
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
|
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13985
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 00:49:00 -
[311] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:IWS check pyrex's 1.8 review. he is great at judging patches
wont load...
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
959
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 00:53:00 -
[312] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:knight guard fury wrote:IWS check pyrex's 1.8 review. he is great at judging patches wont load...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdsaFt4gnjY
lol
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
499
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 00:55:00 -
[313] - Quote
There was the idea of running the cloak off your shield HP as a timer, meaning modular cloaking times + brick tanking becoming useless in combination with cloaking suits.
Not sure how its practical but Ill just repost it.
TOLD514
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
959
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 00:57:00 -
[314] - Quote
Beeeees wrote:There was the idea of running the cloak off your shield HP as a timer, meaning modular cloaking times + brick tanking becoming useless in combination with cloaking suits.
Not sure how its practical but Ill just repost it.
and leave shield tankers defensless?
i think not
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
Samantha Hunyz
G.R.A.V.E
INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
97
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:00:00 -
[315] - Quote
@Iron Wolf Saber, regarding your last wall of text:
I noticed alot of "I feel" as in your personnal opinion pretty much dictating what appears that is what you will be presenting to CCP. You are susposed to be a voice of communication between the players and CCP. but it seems as though your going to tell CCP what they should or shouldn't hotfix based solely on your playstyle. Perhaps I misinterpretated your text, but that is my "opinion" I gathered from reading your text.
When I look down my scope, all I see are dead people.
|
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2301
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:01:00 -
[316] - Quote
When it comes to decloak speed, by the time you are able to fire the weapon, you should
A) Be Completely Visible
B) Have Finished Emiting the Decloak Sound
Its your ability to avoid these until after your opponent is dead that provides the cloaks only personal problem requiring immediate attention.
As for the likes of fitting Costs etc. Don't increase the fitting on the Item itself, other suits already have enough trouble fitting it.
Reducing the fitting bonus from 15% to 10% per level should be enough. It should force the Scout to have to run SOME sub-par modules in order to fit it.
But not cripple it as much as it does to other suits.
When it comes to the Active/Charge Time Ratios 1:1.7 is plentiful, it needs to be enough to discourage turning it on and off repeatedly for use in combat.
If you wish to add a Combat variant in 1.9 that can be used down to 10% of charge I see no problem provided the Max Charge Time does not exceed 20 Seconds.
However I would also expect to include another variant that lasts upwards of 2 mins provided it can be activated without full charge and has a 1:2.5 Active/Charge Time Ratio.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
|
Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
739
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:02:00 -
[317] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So anyways weekend almost over time to focus the discussion a bit. (yes we're working against a clock in which I don't know the time line either here too btw)
We're still pending what to do with the cloaks but some of the changes won't be possible without code of course such as the damage drain if implemented is likely one of those that won't get hot fixed.
So changes if any should involve timers, scout bonuses, fitting of the cloak itself.
About brick tanks
I feel that overall the brick tank issue is bigger than everything here and in its own right deserves its own discussion however this topic is also rather large and may take a comprehensive look and pass thus not applicable in the near time hotfix period ccp is working with so far. So this is a discussion best saved for '1.9' development and not 1.8 hotfixing.
*Minmatar scout for the time being should be buffed in fitting to match freedom the other scouts enjoy (imo minmatar should have a bit more than most other suits)
Cloak Fitting
So with those off the table. We come to the cloak itself.
CCP stated they didn't want cloaks to be scout only tool.
They also stated that they don't want it to make it seem every scouts MUST fit a cloak as well.
These two are most likely going to restrict any changes in the cloak fitting itself
Which leads us to the scout bonus or scout fitting.
Scouts are enjoying the new freedoms they have and honestly I don't see the issue with this. Just as one person puts it a scout gives up nearly nothing to cloak. Only in the more extreme cases are scouts are forced to go tank (unfortunate result of the current imbalance of tank vs utility fitting) So I am a rather apprehensive about adjusting the scouts fitting; too much damage can occur.
So proposed change would be to the scout bonus to cloaks fit. To reduce from 15% to a percent to five lower. I know that something like 13% will look odd on the skill sheet but it works out at max levels with numbers like 70-65-60 for every percent marked down.
So I would like to see this debate continue on what to do with this.
The next more common issue that is greatly affecting game play is how fast one decloaks.
I am uncertain this is hotfix able to be honest and it's something to continue discussion on about as well.
You have to remember I am a stalker type scout back before cloaks came about; any changes to this will not effect my game style at all. Its the vanguard (front line fighters) that will have the most issues as they often have to decloak in front of enemies pointing guns at them and I am terrible at that role. I know how frustrating the game used to be when you commanded a weapon swap and it there was a time delay in the swap I don't want that feeling to return. But I also want to give attentive and hunter players the chance to drop on the scout or reflex on the scout and possibly come out on top.
There is also the the speed of the decloak not matching the time to action. While I am unsure what change it would do for the non cloakers the non cloakers think its going to save them. (based on the killing I've been seeing it won't) I guess the point here is that there is a frustration of people getting killed by invisible people.
I see no harm in fixing the glitch and possible the intended portion of the time to action decloak speed.
cloak shimmer rate
overall a more minor issue but even then I don't think one can achieve a hotfix with this as well.
Cloak Charge
Overall this doesn't seem hotfix able when you involve damage prospects. Maybe for 1.9 but for now I don't see it being a feasible trait to add without a ptch.
What can change is the rate of recharge and consumption.
There isn't much discussion about it but a good cloaker can manage their chargers for a very long time and I am afraid to bring any changes to this outside of new variants but I would like to hear more talks about it such as 1 second cloak = 1.5 second charge or the like.
Stealthiness
Cloaks are considered very powerful stealth tools able to dodge a number of scans, while scanners await their fix there is now the debate should cloaks provide any stealthing? Overall I am fine with it as is as it allows dedicated hunters to beat lower cloaks and the like but the entire system needs a rewrite that absolutions are no longer the case (that being nearer a weaker scanner increases risk of detection for example) The number behind the stealthiness could be change but not the mechanics surrounding it. I would like to see more discussion on this as well.
So TL;DR
Off the table.
*Minmatar fitting underpar should be forwarded, let ccp figure the numbers out for that.
*Brick Tanking is off the table. Better suited for 1.9 discussion due to size and complexity of subject
*Cloak Charge bar being externally altered by other players.
*Potential Shimmer
*Cloak Stealth Mechanics
On the table
*Cloak fitting is on the table still.
*Cloak decloak speed.
*Cloak charge rate internally
*Cloak electronic stealth value
Updated Op with change in discussion.
The fitting amount on cloaks seem reasonable to other equipment. Reducing this does not address any issues you have raised if anything it makes it more likely they brick tank further by putting a cheap basic armour plate on instead of say a ferrascale.
...
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
961
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:03:00 -
[318] - Quote
why not reduce the cpu/pg needs for ferro and reactive and increase the needs for plates
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
jerrmy12 kahoalii
773
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:11:00 -
[319] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So anyways weekend almost over time to focus the discussion a bit. (yes we're working against a clock in which I don't know the time line either here too btw)
We're still pending what to do with the cloaks but some of the changes won't be possible without code of course such as the damage drain if implemented is likely one of those that won't get hot fixed.
So changes if any should involve timers, scout bonuses, fitting of the cloak itself.
About brick tanks
I feel that overall the brick tank issue is bigger than everything here and in its own right deserves its own discussion however this topic is also rather large and may take a comprehensive look and pass thus not applicable in the near time hotfix period ccp is working with so far. So this is a discussion best saved for '1.9' development and not 1.8 hotfixing.
*Minmatar scout for the time being should be buffed in fitting to match freedom the other scouts enjoy (imo minmatar should have a bit more than most other suits)
Cloak Fitting
So with those off the table. We come to the cloak itself.
CCP stated they didn't want cloaks to be scout only tool.
They also stated that they don't want it to make it seem every scouts MUST fit a cloak as well.
These two are most likely going to restrict any changes in the cloak fitting itself
Which leads us to the scout bonus or scout fitting.
Scouts are enjoying the new freedoms they have and honestly I don't see the issue with this. Just as one person puts it a scout gives up nearly nothing to cloak. Only in the more extreme cases are scouts are forced to go tank (unfortunate result of the current imbalance of tank vs utility fitting) So I am a rather apprehensive about adjusting the scouts fitting; too much damage can occur.
So proposed change would be to the scout bonus to cloaks fit. To reduce from 15% to a percent to five lower. I know that something like 13% will look odd on the skill sheet but it works out at max levels with numbers like 70-65-60 for every percent marked down.
So I would like to see this debate continue on what to do with this.
The next more common issue that is greatly affecting game play is how fast one decloaks.
I am uncertain this is hotfix able to be honest and it's something to continue discussion on about as well.
You have to remember I am a stalker type scout back before cloaks came about; any changes to this will not effect my game style at all. Its the vanguard (front line fighters) that will have the most issues as they often have to decloak in front of enemies pointing guns at them and I am terrible at that role. I know how frustrating the game used to be when you commanded a weapon swap and it there was a time delay in the swap I don't want that feeling to return. But I also want to give attentive and hunter players the chance to drop on the scout or reflex on the scout and possibly come out on top.
There is also the the speed of the decloak not matching the time to action. While I am unsure what change it would do for the non cloakers the non cloakers think its going to save them. (based on the killing I've been seeing it won't) I guess the point here is that there is a frustration of people getting killed by invisible people.
I see no harm in fixing the glitch and possible the intended portion of the time to action decloak speed.
cloak shimmer rate
overall a more minor issue but even then I don't think one can achieve a hotfix with this as well.
Cloak Charge
Overall this doesn't seem hotfix able when you involve damage prospects. Maybe for 1.9 but for now I don't see it being a feasible trait to add without a ptch.
What can change is the rate of recharge and consumption.
There isn't much discussion about it but a good cloaker can manage their chargers for a very long time and I am afraid to bring any changes to this outside of new variants but I would like to hear more talks about it such as 1 second cloak = 1.5 second charge or the like.
Stealthiness
Cloaks are considered very powerful stealth tools able to dodge a number of scans, while scanners await their fix there is now the debate should cloaks provide any stealthing? Overall I am fine with it as is as it allows dedicated hunters to beat lower cloaks and the like but the entire system needs a rewrite that absolutions are no longer the case (that being nearer a weaker scanner increases risk of detection for example) The number behind the stealthiness could be change but not the mechanics surrounding it. I would like to see more discussion on this as well.
So TL;DR
Off the table.
*Minmatar fitting underpar should be forwarded, let ccp figure the numbers out for that.
*Brick Tanking is off the table. Better suited for 1.9 discussion due to size and complexity of subject
*Cloak Charge bar being externally altered by other players.
*Potential Shimmer
*Cloak Stealth Mechanics
On the table
*Cloak fitting is on the table still.
*Cloak decloak speed.
*Cloak charge rate internally
*Cloak electronic stealth value
Updated Op with change in discussion. The fitting amount on cloaks seem reasonable to other equipment. Reducing this does not address any issues you have raised if anything it makes it more likely they brick tank further by putting a cheap basic armour plate on instead of say a ferrascale.
Swap the values and boom fixed
Closed beta vet
Tears, sweet delicious tears
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
962
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:12:00 -
[320] - Quote
IWS, if you watched it, what do you think of the vid
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
|
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13989
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:14:00 -
[321] - Quote
Samantha Hunyz wrote:@Iron Wolf Saber, regarding your last wall of text:
I noticed alot of "I feel" as in your personnal opinion pretty much dictating what appears that is what you will be presenting to CCP. You are susposed to be a voice of communication between the players and CCP. but it seems as though your going to tell CCP what they should or shouldn't hotfix based solely on your playstyle. Perhaps I misinterpretated your text, but that is my "opinion" I gathered from reading your text.
I use the word 'I feel' for mostly for things I am not concrete on or its part of a larger pool of a generalization of direction to go; its a way for me to recognize there is something wrong and there is no perfect answer.
The issue is complicated overall as this is more of a circle this time. altering one alters the whole circle and letting ccp do the adjustments without any guidance or concerns raised up can result in bad hilarity.
I can't work on singular answers because I can't read ccps mind and have no idea what they will bring to the table when it comes time to talk. These debates are just helping me be armed with reasons to work around with to get a better desired result while working with ccp.
Also like I said there are things that may not get hotfixed or not we don't know yet to the extent cloaks.
You have to remember I went through the scouts buffs and the much earlier heavy buffs in a similar manner.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
mollerz
3082
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:15:00 -
[322] - Quote
If anything, the cloak is too easy for other suits to fit. It is not easy for a scout to fit a proto cloak unless you are proto and fully skilled out.
If you aren't max core skills and lv 5 scout, you are not going to have an easy time fitting a cloak without making a sacrifice. The ninja scout in particular can either speed tank, or stealth tank. You can't do both, and this is with core skills 5.
The real problems here are unfinished assault suit stats, and armor plating usage.
Other than that- the cloak QQ is just that.. QQ. There is no question that the cloak is very visible to visual ID, and that using your reticule to sweep an area makes it bang on easy to find cloakers. If you can't see or find a cloaker, then you have to readjust how you pay attention to your surroundings in game. That is the only other problem aside from the glitches. Players being too lazy to use their eyeballs.
It is way too soon to talk about changing the cloak. This is just a hysterical response to something that is new, and also glitched right now. Fix the bugs first.
Nerfing is OP, bug fixing is UP. Way too UP.
You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13989
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:15:00 -
[323] - Quote
yeah its his video stopping at 4 seconds in and stalls loading.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
962
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:20:00 -
[324] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:yeah its his video stopping at 4 seconds in and stalls loading.
well when ever you get the chance, watch it. he makes so many good points and has some good reasons to why cloaks arent OP
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13991
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:22:00 -
[325] - Quote
I never declared cloaks overpowered however.
I always had been stating that they been near perfect.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
962
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Posted - 2014.03.30 01:28:00 -
[326] - Quote
i find it humerous that i have crappy connection and i can watch his video reatedly and you probably have great internet connection and it wwont load for you
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2304
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:31:00 -
[327] - Quote
mollerz wrote:If anything, the cloak is too easy for other suits to fit. It is not easy for a scout to fit a proto cloak unless you are proto and fully skilled out.
If you aren't max core skills and lv 5 scout, you are not going to have an easy time fitting a cloak without making a sacrifice. The ninja scout in particular can either speed tank, or stealth tank. You can't do both, and this is with core skills 5.
The real problems here are unfinished assault suit stats, and armor plating usage.
Other than that- the cloak QQ is just that.. QQ. There is no question that the cloak is very visible to visual ID, and that using your reticule to sweep an area makes it bang on easy to find cloakers. If you can't see or find a cloaker, then you have to readjust how you pay attention to your surroundings in game. That is the only other problem aside from the glitches. Players being too lazy to use their eyeballs.
It is way too soon to talk about changing the cloak. This is just a hysterical response to something that is new, and also glitched right now. Fix the bugs first.
Nerfing is OP, bug fixing is UP. Way too UP.
Its not that its "Overpowered" its more the fact you can
1) Have Your Cake and Eat it when it comes to fitting
2) Kill someone while still being cloaked (you can say its QQ but until you actually try shooting an invisible scout with MORE health than you won't understand)
Also CCP built it so you weren't meant to do that, which is problem.
Its those who are complaining they keep getting shot in the back that are QQing because the cloak is meant to facilitate that, being shot in the face, not so much.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13991
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:36:00 -
[328] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:i find it humerous that i have crappy connection and i can watch his video reatedly and you probably have great internet connection and it wwont load for you
I just find it funny I can watch other youtube videos..
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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mollerz
3084
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:49:00 -
[329] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:
Its not that its "Overpowered" its more the fact you can
1) Have Your Cake and Eat it when it comes to fitting - That is patently false. Even at max skills you do not have carte blanche. You do have a lot more choices than someone with avg to low skill- in which case serious concessions have to be made for an ADV cloak. A proto cloak insures a low SP user has nothing but that cloak.
2) Kill someone while still being cloaked (you can say its QQ but until you actually try shooting an invisible scout with MORE health than you won't understand) - That is not possible aside from a glitch that was not intended. I agree though. that glitch needs hot fixing immediately. The way a cloak works as intended, you have a half second from cloak to weapon switch. It works well with a shotgun due to the 5m buffer you can put inbetween yourself and the target. However, with knives you have to create that buffer yourself, so you will be attacking after being uncloaked for about 3 seconds or so. And even then it's a frame rate horror to even deal with.
Also CCP built it so you weren't meant to do that, which is problem. - Thus it is a glitch.
Its those who are complaining they keep getting shot in the back that are QQing because the cloak is meant to facilitate that, being shot in the face, not so much.
If you get shot in the face from a cloaked- You could have seen him if you were looking and really should pay more attention to your surroundings. You can easily visibly ID cloaked and moving targets. Your reticle is also a key and powerful tool in sweeping for cloaked enemies.
People just need to relearn tactics. This cloak QQ is born of laziness to adapt to a changing battlefield. Get in a squad, unless you know how to solo, and have a scout in your squad to help you ID threats.
You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
964
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:53:00 -
[330] - Quote
pyrex's old shotty vid shows so much
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
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|
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13993
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:57:00 -
[331] - Quote
and funny that video played fine.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
964
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 02:01:00 -
[332] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:and funny that video played fine.
i find that a bit trolly
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
354
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 02:05:00 -
[333] - Quote
It isn't the right time (sidearm event) to judge balance. I thought I would have had a harder time seeing the cloak, but the only thing saving some of those 'invisible' scouts is that we're all trying to get sidearm kills. A Commando/sidearm event is abnormal, and more rifles will limit the effectiveness of hit-and-run tactics.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
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medomai grey
WarRavens
League of Infamy
485
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 02:27:00 -
[334] - Quote
BIind Shot wrote:medomai grey wrote:I feel cloaks should behave more like camouflage, easy to miss if your not actually looking for it but totally recognizable if you are looking for it. Kind of like the Predator's cloak. I'm not fond of how you're essentially invisible when you stand still cloaked. No one is going to spot the virtually non-existent distortions, especially on dark maps. I feel cloaks should create a noticeable distortion when both standing still or moving without any shimmering, like the predator's cloak. As for cloaks persisting too well through damage, have to agree with Iron Wolf Saber. It's not fair to the guy who spots and shoots at a cloaked enemy. But it isn't fair for cloaked players who get hit by stray bullets either. There are some annoying bugs like where players can use their weapons while being cloaked indefinitely and being able to fire shots off before actually de-cloaking. I want cloaks in Dust514, but they could have done with more time in Santa's workshop getting it right. You're never 100% invisible even standing still if you look close enough it's like seeing the heat rise from pavement or off the hood of a car. Your right. Now READ what I posted again to understand what I was talking about. You'll see that I know cloaking technically never makes you 100% invisible.
I've been told that people prefer fake smiles over the honest expressions of their fellow men. : )
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ugg reset
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
534
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 02:42:00 -
[335] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:LEHON Xeon wrote:Don't know if anyone else is having the problem, but when I use a cloak I cannot do anything while in it except move. I can't swap to a weapon or even equipment without instantly uncloaking. Even when swapping to a gun, it seems I can get a round or two off before I become fully visible, but if I use anything else like an RE it deactivates. I can't even just hold the RE and it'll turn off. LOL
wow you"re funny. I already new we had the CPM to thank for not having our primary weapon at the ready while cloaked. thanks for the unneeded pre nerf.
Thr33 is the magic number.
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almighty warior
Krusual Covert Operators
Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 02:54:00 -
[336] - Quote
I do like the cloaks but the only bad thing is the fact that you cannot hold weapons while doing so including the fact that it is so expensive and it takes up too much space on your drop suit. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14005
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 03:13:00 -
[337] - Quote
ugg reset wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:LEHON Xeon wrote:Don't know if anyone else is having the problem, but when I use a cloak I cannot do anything while in it except move. I can't swap to a weapon or even equipment without instantly uncloaking. Even when swapping to a gun, it seems I can get a round or two off before I become fully visible, but if I use anything else like an RE it deactivates. I can't even just hold the RE and it'll turn off. LOL wow you"re funny. I already new we had the CPM to thank for not having our primary weapon at the ready while cloaked. thanks for the unneeded pre nerf.
There is a reason why nobody else replied to that post.
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Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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Knight Soiaire
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
5278
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 03:17:00 -
[338] - Quote
Only problem I have is how people can instantly pull up and shoot their weapon after decloaking, it needs to have some timer that stops you from immediately pulling your weapon and shooting just like an activation timer for REs.
If you're caught while Cloaked, you should not have the chance to instantly fight back, you should have to wait 1-2s before being able to fire back as punishment for being caught.
Sounds in third-person needs to be increased too, out of the +20 times I have been Shotgunned by a decloaker, I have only heard the sound once.
fuckign casuls
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2711
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 05:16:00 -
[339] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
What are you apologizing for? I'm just asking what bugs do the scanners have because I'm not aware of it. I used it to see the changes and I saw the changes as CCP stated.
For? Why should I explain the bugs when the first words out of your mouth was declaration you don't care for scanner's plight? Maybe someone else will be nicer to explain what is current broken with them. Then don't explain it.....I adapted to it last build and I'm happy it's in the tank now. Anything in between will make no difference to me. And I no longer see the value in hearing your voice anymore; you lack respect, advocacy, awareness, humility and knowledge, or willingness to understand. You then continue to show high levels of selfishness, disrespect for fellow community members, understanding of the establishment of the community team and CPM and their functions, and finally I am going to take you as someone who is going to cry like a baby to the entire community about not representing you but instead you replace word 'you' with the word 'community.'
Show me one place where I was disrespectful, lacking humility, willingness to understand, advocacy, etc.
I didn't insult anyone nor was I disrespectful to anyone. I pose ideas, people respond and then I respond back. I've been advocating for all that do not share the same views as you do.
The only one that is selfish is you and you have already somewhat admitted to it.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2711
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 05:19:00 -
[340] - Quote
Samantha Hunyz wrote:@Iron Wolf Saber, regarding your last wall of text:
I noticed alot of "I feel" as in your personnal opinion pretty much dictating what appears that is what you will be presenting to CCP. You are susposed to be a voice of communication between the players and CCP. but it seems as though your going to tell CCP what they should or shouldn't hotfix based solely on your playstyle. Perhaps I misinterpretated your text, but that is my "opinion" I gathered from reading your text.
As long as I am not the only one that sees this....however he already admitted to only pushing ideas he agrees with. And if you disagree with his opinion, then you are arrogant and selfish lol.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
|
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14021
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 08:00:00 -
[341] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I'm having a problem with the CPM giving his own opinions
YOU SEE, LOOK AT THIS
YOU CAN NOT BE SERIOUS
Makes threads like these seem to be as if they're falling on deaf ears.
CPMs are too opinionated and are arguing their points too much, it feels as if what we say doesn't matter
You agreee with this guy? Seriously??
PS2 will not affect dust
I find your issue with brick tanking funny when you defend cloaking and say it isn't a crutch.
I don't know what to say....
It is backwards and ridiculous a tthe same time.
cloaks has to go
is that what this fps has come to?
Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with???
I don't see how you guys can argue this.
It's a serious question
UNBELIEVABLE.........so you have confirmed my suspicions!
corrupt CPM
Forums are a super minority but why does your opinion outweighs everyone else's that comes to the forums?
You take the side which has the most supporters.
It doesn't matter what you post.....cause if he disagrees, he's not pushing for it.
"What more do I want...?" I want him to be impartial.
running around invisible for 15 mins
This is a facepalm position to have.
what bugs? I'm glad scanners got nerfed into oblivion. Big time crutch.
Where's the hypocrisy?
Will make no difference to me.
Yet that's how they all play...its all hypocritical
how are tanked scouts a problem and not cloaks?? This is a facepalm position to have.
This is how I value all of your posts so far in this discussion. There are plenty of ways of disagreeing with me, the cpm, or ccp or most importantly of all fellow community members without having your post valued to this level.
You bring nothing new to the table. Everything you said has been said better by other more respectable folks.
You're letting your wild imagination rule over you or is it fear? Either way I wont find out.
You're causing undue strife spreading misinformation and obtaining a level of idiocy that will lead you and potentially your corp into voice invalidity. So takario 2.0
/your fired
P.S. you'd be the second person I ever fired takario hasn't stooped a low as you have.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Regis Blackbird
DUST University
Ivy League
142
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 09:35:00 -
[342] - Quote
BIind Shot wrote:Regis Blackbird wrote:knight guard fury wrote:
*for one, flux's shouldn't disturb the cloaks timer or make it disappear completely, i think it should make the cloak shimmer for a certain amount of time like 5-10 seconds.
*also dmg should not unlcoak a scout
^ this I fully agree with! As stated earlier in the thread, I also think a small cloak activation cost will make the Rambo rapid cloak -> firing -> cloak (etc) still possible but very inefficient. It would not penalize single use like dropping uplinks, take out a straggler or traverse an area. If a lucky flux kills my cloak and my shields I'm left with 70 armor and no cover.. That's enough to last 1/10th of a second of fire from any weapon. Might as well have it finish me and save me the stroke.
You misunderstood what I said.
We do not suggest the cloak should fail, just make it shimmer slightly more.
This gives a chance to spot a objective camping scout, but you will have to sacrifice a valuable flux to do so.
It can also fit into the lore, where the flux overloads the cloak making it not functioning properly.
Hell, I can even go for a flux completely refills the cloak field as long as the shimmer effect is present for the duration of the overload.
|
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2306
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 11:12:00 -
[343] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Its not that its "Overpowered" its more the fact you can 1) Have Your Cake and Eat it when it comes to fitting - That is patently false. Even at max skills you do not have carte blanche. You do have a lot more choices than someone with avg to low skill- in which case serious concessions have to be made for an ADV cloak. A proto cloak insures a low SP user has nothing but that cloak.See the Pyrex Video here, provided on this very thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdsaFt4gnjY that is the definition of having your cake and eating it.
Advanced Light Weapon + Sidearm (Tier Unkown) + 5 Plates + Equipment + Cloak. 2) Kill someone while still being cloaked (you can say its QQ but until you actually try shooting an invisible scout with MORE health than you won't understand) - That is not possible aside from a glitch that was not intended. I agree though. that glitch needs hot fixing immediately. The way a cloak works as intended, you have a half second from cloak to weapon switch. It works well with a shotgun due to the 5m buffer you can put inbetween yourself and the target. However, with knives you have to create that buffer yourself, so you will be attacking after being uncloaked for about 3 seconds or so. And even then it's a frame rate horror to even deal with.Once again see the video, mamages to fire off most of a flaylock clip before decloaking, that's a major problem and not how CCP told us how cloaks would workAlso CCP built it so you weren't meant to do that, which is problem. - Thus it is a glitch.Its those who are complaining they keep getting shot in the back that are QQing because the cloak is meant to facilitate that, being shot in the face, not so much. If you get shot in the face from a cloaked- You could have seen him if you were looking and really should pay more attention to your surroundings. You can easily visibly ID cloaked and moving targets. Your reticle is also a key and powerful tool in sweeping for cloaked enemies. People just need to relearn tactics. This cloak QQ is born of laziness to adapt to a changing battlefield. Get in a squad, unless you know how to solo, and have a scout in your squad to help you ID threats.
I agree there is a gonna be alot of adaption as well, but there is a difference between adaption and some dodgy mechanics.
I just wa t the dodgy mechanics fixed.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2712
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 11:46:00 -
[344] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I'm having a problem with the CPM giving his own opinions
YOU SEE, LOOK AT THIS
YOU CAN NOT BE SERIOUS
Makes threads like these seem to be as if they're falling on deaf ears.
CPMs are too opinionated and are arguing their points too much, it feels as if what we say doesn't matter
You agreee with this guy? Seriously??
PS2 will not affect dust
I find your issue with brick tanking funny when you defend cloaking and say it isn't a crutch.
I don't know what to say....
It is backwards and ridiculous a tthe same time.
cloaks has to go
is that what this fps has come to?
Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with???
I don't see how you guys can argue this.
It's a serious question
UNBELIEVABLE.........so you have confirmed my suspicions!
corrupt CPM
Forums are a super minority but why does your opinion outweighs everyone else's that comes to the forums?
You take the side which has the most supporters.
It doesn't matter what you post.....cause if he disagrees, he's not pushing for it.
"What more do I want...?" I want him to be impartial.
running around invisible for 15 mins
This is a facepalm position to have.
what bugs? I'm glad scanners got nerfed into oblivion. Big time crutch.
Where's the hypocrisy?
Will make no difference to me.
Yet that's how they all play...its all hypocritical
how are tanked scouts a problem and not cloaks?? This is a facepalm position to have.
This is how I value all of your posts so far in this discussion. There are plenty of ways of disagreeing with me, the cpm, or ccp or most importantly of all fellow community members without having your post valued to this level. You bring nothing new to the table. Everything you said has been said better by other more respectable folks. You're letting your wild imagination rule over you or is it fear? Either way I wont find out. You're causing undue strife spreading misinformation and obtaining a level of idiocy that will lead you and potentially your corp into voice invalidity. So takario 2.0 /your fired P.S. you'd be the second person I ever fired takario hasn't stooped a low as you have.
You are just way too sensitive....none of what I said was disrespectful or intentionally insulting. Worst thing that I said was to use corrupt to express how I felt CPMs were being.
Now since you're being insulting, I may respond in kind if I deem it necessary. When you're engaging in a debate or having a discussion over a difference of opinion (esp over the internet when it is easy to misinterpret intention) you need to pull you skirt down and put on your big boy pants. Don't feel insulted because someone believes that what you are doing is wrong.
What's worst is that you've admitted to what I suspected of CPMs. I just hope that CCP reads all of this and sees this for themselves. And I will continue to rebut ridiculous posts in this thread or others about cloaks.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
Mad Syringe
ReDust Inc.
283
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 11:52:00 -
[345] - Quote
In EVE, you can't cloak and are decloaked in the proximity of stations/other ships. Why not make it similar in Dust.
If you aproach a cloaked player and have line of sight, you should see his shevron when he is within half your passive BASE scanning distance. Meaning an Assault player would see the chevron when he directly looks at a scout within 5m. But only if he moves, even if it's ever so slightly. If he's standing still the chevron should disappear.
The hp stacking should result in higher speed penalty for scouts so they become much slower when stacking plates.
Flux grenades should scramble the cloak in a slight manner, meaning the cloak shimmers for 3 seconds like full sprint, and the capacity drains at 1.5 times the amount for those 3 seconds.
Decloaking should always require the switchoff animation before using weapon or equipment. |
BIind Shot
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
83
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 11:58:00 -
[346] - Quote
Mad Syringe wrote:In EVE, you can't cloak and are decloaked in the proximity of stations/other ships. Why not make it similar in Dust.
If you aproach a cloaked player and have line of sight, you should see his shevron when he is within half your passive BASE scanning distance. Meaning an Assault player would see the chevron when he directly looks at a scout within 5m. But only if he moves, even if it's ever so slightly. If he's standing still the chevron should disappear.
The hp stacking should result in higher speed penalty for scouts so they become much slower when stacking plates.
Flux grenades should scramble the cloak in a slight manner, meaning the cloak shimmers for 3 seconds like full sprint, and the capacity drains at 1.5 times the amount for those 3 seconds.
Decloaking should always require the switchoff animation before using weapon or equipment.
Is the obvious shimmer not enough? Me and my friends q synced a factional and we tested it. The shimmer is easily spotted if you're looking. OP scanners have just made people rely on their mini map too much.
and he said unto them, "Bring ye all your trolls, that they shall feed".
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
964
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 11:58:00 -
[347] - Quote
Mad Syringe wrote:In EVE, you can't cloak and are decloaked in the proximity of stations/other ships. Why not make it similar in Dust.
If you aproach a cloaked player and have line of sight, you should see his shevron when he is within half your passive BASE scanning distance. Meaning an Assault player would see the chevron when he directly looks at a scout within 5m. But only if he moves, even if it's ever so slightly. If he's standing still the chevron should disappear.
The hp stacking should result in higher speed penalty for scouts so they become much slower when stacking plates.
Flux grenades should scramble the cloak in a slight manner, meaning the cloak shimmers for 3 seconds like full sprint, and the capacity drains at 1.5 times the amount for those 3 seconds.
Decloaking should always require the switchoff animation before using weapon or equipment.
well there's already a mechanic that counters cloaks... its called precision enhancers.
they allow you to see cloaked scout if they aren't dampening themselves.
also you can see red hitmarkers if you look at a cloaked scout and easily keep track of it if you aim at him constantly while lookinng
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2712
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 12:00:00 -
[348] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:
I agree there is a gonna be alot of adaption as well, but there is a difference between adaption and some dodgy mechanics.
I just wa t the dodgy mechanics fixed.
Exactly....I hate cloaks but it is a part of the game now. Will have to accept it but there needs to be a good balance and some things needs to make sense.
1. You should be fully decloaked before you're able to fire and not while you're in the animation.
2. Cooldown should act like every other active module in the game to prevent cloaking spam and being able to cloak all the time.
Imagine tanks with the cloak cooldown system...you have to use multiple modules to be able to be hardened at all times now. If vehicle mods worked like cloaks, tanks/DS would have constant active dmg mods and hardeners activated. Skill is seen when you choose to activate your modules. Cloaks should be the same way.
3. You should decloak when you take damage. I don't even understand how people can debate this. It isn't a force field.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
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BIind Shot
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
84
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 12:05:00 -
[349] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
I agree there is a gonna be alot of adaption as well, but there is a difference between adaption and some dodgy mechanics.
I just wa t the dodgy mechanics fixed.
Exactly....I hate cloaks but it is a part of the game now. Will have to accept it but there needs to be a good balance and some things needs to make sense. 1. You should be fully decloaked before you're able to fire and not while you're in the animation. 2. Cooldown should act like every other active module in the game to prevent cloaking spam and being able to cloak all the time. Imagine tanks with the cloak cooldown system...you have to use multiple modules to be able to be hardened at all times now. If vehicle mods worked like cloaks, tanks/DS would have constant active dmg mods and hardeners activated. Skill is seen when you choose to activate your modules. Cloaks should be the same way. 3. You should decloak when you take damage. I don't even understand how people can debate this. It isn't a force field.
Why would taking damage break the cloak? The cloak field reflects light around you. Bullets pass right through light.. You said it your self. It's not a force field.
and he said unto them, "Bring ye all your trolls, that they shall feed".
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KalOfTheRathi
Nec Tributis
1077
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 12:10:00 -
[350] - Quote
CPM ears are deaf. Why would any suspect otherwise?
They react with the same HTFU and just play the game that CCP does. Thus, you might as well talk to the deaf ears of CCP versus spending any effort on CPM.
But that is just from my own personal experience with IWS and my concerns about how CCP was destroying over a year of effort that I put into this character. Which they did. Just as rumored while IWS told me to calm my silly little Merc self down and HTFU.
What goes around comes around. In Dust the next step is that whatever that was heads down the drain.
Just my experience. Your mileage will vary, one might hope.
And so it goes.
|
|
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2712
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 12:18:00 -
[351] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:CPM ears are deaf. Why would any suspect otherwise? They react with the same HTFU and just play the game that CCP does. Thus, you might as well talk to the deaf ears of CCP versus spending any effort on CPM. But that is just from my own personal experience with IWS and my concerns about how CCP was destroying over a year of effort that I put into this character. Which they did. Just as rumored while IWS told me to calm my silly little Merc self down and HTFU. What goes around comes around. In Dust the next step is that whatever that was heads down the drain. Just my experience. Your mileage will vary, one might hope.
I have arrived to that conclusion now. If your opinin differs from his, then it falls on deaf ears. If your opinion agrees with his, then that reflects the community lol.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2712
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 12:21:00 -
[352] - Quote
BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
I agree there is a gonna be alot of adaption as well, but there is a difference between adaption and some dodgy mechanics.
I just wa t the dodgy mechanics fixed.
Exactly....I hate cloaks but it is a part of the game now. Will have to accept it but there needs to be a good balance and some things needs to make sense. 1. You should be fully decloaked before you're able to fire and not while you're in the animation. 2. Cooldown should act like every other active module in the game to prevent cloaking spam and being able to cloak all the time. Imagine tanks with the cloak cooldown system...you have to use multiple modules to be able to be hardened at all times now. If vehicle mods worked like cloaks, tanks/DS would have constant active dmg mods and hardeners activated. Skill is seen when you choose to activate your modules. Cloaks should be the same way. 3. You should decloak when you take damage. I don't even understand how people can debate this. It isn't a force field. Why would taking damage break the cloak? The cloak field reflects light around you. Bullets pass right through light.. You said it your self. It's not a force field.
That's actually a good point. But then one must pose the question, why is there a shimmer when you get shot? I'm going with the possibility that when you shoot at someone, you do damage to the actual device that creates the cloaking field. And with that, they should decloak.
Unless the shimmer is caused by the small bullet passing through the light? Idk....but either way when you shoot someone you canbe possibly doing damage to the device. And you should decloak as a result.
I can even get with a damage threshold....so when you do damage to someone, they are at max shimmer until they lose half or all of their shields. And once that that threshold is met, they fully decloak.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
BIind Shot
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
84
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 12:22:00 -
[353] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:KalOfTheRathi wrote:CPM ears are deaf. Why would any suspect otherwise? They react with the same HTFU and just play the game that CCP does. Thus, you might as well talk to the deaf ears of CCP versus spending any effort on CPM. But that is just from my own personal experience with IWS and my concerns about how CCP was destroying over a year of effort that I put into this character. Which they did. Just as rumored while IWS told me to calm my silly little Merc self down and HTFU. What goes around comes around. In Dust the next step is that whatever that was heads down the drain. Just my experience. Your mileage will vary, one might hope. I have arrived to that conclusion now. If your opinin differs from his, then it falls on deaf ears. If your opinion agrees with his, then that reflects the community lol.
If you show the math and evidence for your argument instead of just spamming your opinion; maybe you could change his opinion.
and he said unto them, "Bring ye all your trolls, that they shall feed".
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BIind Shot
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
84
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Posted - 2014.03.30 12:27:00 -
[354] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
I agree there is a gonna be alot of adaption as well, but there is a difference between adaption and some dodgy mechanics.
I just wa t the dodgy mechanics fixed.
Exactly....I hate cloaks but it is a part of the game now. Will have to accept it but there needs to be a good balance and some things needs to make sense. 1. You should be fully decloaked before you're able to fire and not while you're in the animation. 2. Cooldown should act like every other active module in the game to prevent cloaking spam and being able to cloak all the time. Imagine tanks with the cloak cooldown system...you have to use multiple modules to be able to be hardened at all times now. If vehicle mods worked like cloaks, tanks/DS would have constant active dmg mods and hardeners activated. Skill is seen when you choose to activate your modules. Cloaks should be the same way. 3. You should decloak when you take damage. I don't even understand how people can debate this. It isn't a force field. Why would taking damage break the cloak? The cloak field reflects light around you. Bullets pass right through light.. You said it your self. It's not a force field. That's actually a good point. But then one must pose the question, why is there a shimmer when you get shot? I'm going with the possibility that when you shoot at someone, you do damage to the actual device that creates the cloaking field. And with that, they should decloak.
My guess is because you're shooting plasma and not bullets it disrupts the photons of the cloak and thus shimmer.
and he said unto them, "Bring ye all your trolls, that they shall feed".
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Racro 01 Arifistan
501st Knights of Leanbox
INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
260
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 12:28:00 -
[355] - Quote
there a few problems with the cloak. but overall it IS very close to being balanced but needs changes,
as stated shooting your gun WHILE decloaking and still being invisable to the target is iunfair and needs to be looked at...like AFTER you have fully decloaked and everybody can see you is when the gun should be able to fire.
the shimmer is not too much of an issue. mianly coeming from the fact i have killed cloaked scouts witha blaster turret due to the shimmer they emmit while sprinting/moveing. and keeping track of them after they cloak mid fire fight.
for the brick tank part i suggest a HP reduction of about 10-15% after fitting the cloak to the suit. that way thier is a choice between being very stealthy or beign a bricked scout that everyone can see. fitting higher tiered claoks should induce a larger hp reduction in contrast to thier scan profile reduction.
Elite Gallenten Soldier
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2712
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 12:30:00 -
[356] - Quote
BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:KalOfTheRathi wrote:CPM ears are deaf. Why would any suspect otherwise? They react with the same HTFU and just play the game that CCP does. Thus, you might as well talk to the deaf ears of CCP versus spending any effort on CPM. But that is just from my own personal experience with IWS and my concerns about how CCP was destroying over a year of effort that I put into this character. Which they did. Just as rumored while IWS told me to calm my silly little Merc self down and HTFU. What goes around comes around. In Dust the next step is that whatever that was heads down the drain. Just my experience. Your mileage will vary, one might hope. I have arrived to that conclusion now. If your opinin differs from his, then it falls on deaf ears. If your opinion agrees with his, then that reflects the community lol. If you show the math and evidence for your argument instead of just spamming your opinion; maybe you could change his opinion.
What math? I don't see anyone else's evidence or math for their argument. All I see is, "it won't be fun" or "it'll be useless".
I promise you, I can post a vid of someone shooting before fully decloaked and they would say but you can still see his shimmer.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2712
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 12:31:00 -
[357] - Quote
BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
I agree there is a gonna be alot of adaption as well, but there is a difference between adaption and some dodgy mechanics.
I just wa t the dodgy mechanics fixed.
Exactly....I hate cloaks but it is a part of the game now. Will have to accept it but there needs to be a good balance and some things needs to make sense. 1. You should be fully decloaked before you're able to fire and not while you're in the animation. 2. Cooldown should act like every other active module in the game to prevent cloaking spam and being able to cloak all the time. Imagine tanks with the cloak cooldown system...you have to use multiple modules to be able to be hardened at all times now. If vehicle mods worked like cloaks, tanks/DS would have constant active dmg mods and hardeners activated. Skill is seen when you choose to activate your modules. Cloaks should be the same way. 3. You should decloak when you take damage. I don't even understand how people can debate this. It isn't a force field. Why would taking damage break the cloak? The cloak field reflects light around you. Bullets pass right through light.. You said it your self. It's not a force field. That's actually a good point. But then one must pose the question, why is there a shimmer when you get shot? I'm going with the possibility that when you shoot at someone, you do damage to the actual device that creates the cloaking field. And with that, they should decloak. My guess is because you're shooting plasma and not bullets it disrupts the photons of the cloak and thus shimmer.
I edited my post right after I posted it.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2309
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 12:36:00 -
[358] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
I agree there is a gonna be alot of adaption as well, but there is a difference between adaption and some dodgy mechanics.
I just wa t the dodgy mechanics fixed.
Exactly....I hate cloaks but it is a part of the game now. Will have to accept it but there needs to be a good balance and some things needs to make sense. 1. You should be fully decloaked before you're able to fire and not while you're in the animation. 2. Cooldown should act like every other active module in the game to prevent cloaking spam and being able to cloak all the time. Imagine tanks with the cloak cooldown system...you have to use multiple modules to be able to be hardened at all times now. If vehicle mods worked like cloaks, tanks/DS would have constant active dmg mods and hardeners activated. Skill is seen when you choose to activate your modules. Cloaks should be the same way. 3. You should decloak when you take damage. I don't even understand how people can debate this. It isn't a force field. Why would taking damage break the cloak? The cloak field reflects light around you. Bullets pass right through light.. You said it your self. It's not a force field. That's actually a good point. But then one must pose the question, why is there a shimmer when you get shot? I'm going with the possibility that when you shoot at someone, you do damage to the actual device that creates the cloaking field. And with that, they should decloak.
Yes but if you were doing damage to the device as soon as you decloak once, you would be permanently uncloaked until your nexr death.
Personally I have no problem with the cloak not buckiling under fire, its meant to be defensive, if the person flees then the cloak should assist. Having rounds disrupt the effect (shield flare) is more than enough.
However perosnally I have no problem with cooldown system, however the ratio of Active/Charge times needs to be on the magnitude of 1:1.7. Enough to allow the user a few subsequent cloakings but not enough for prolonged combat. Personally I am more concerned about the ease of fittings.
As demonstrated in Pyrex's video referenced earlier this thread, it's possible for a high SP character (or a focused SP character) to have no trouble fitting
1 x Advanced Light Weapon, 1 x Sidearm Weapon, 5 x Armour Plates, 1 x Cloak and 1 x Advanced Equipment. Now Pyrex manages a total of 700 Armour and Smattering of Shields, which on a cloaked unit is slightly ridiculous. Now you may say so plates, put him at a disadvantage, but sacrifice 1 plate for a repper and 1 for Kincat you camt still reach 500 armour, have a suitable amount of reps and a sprint speed faster than most Assaults.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
964
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 12:42:00 -
[359] - Quote
Racro 01 Arifistan wrote:there a few problems with the cloak. but overall it IS very close to being balanced but needs changes,
as stated shooting your gun WHILE decloaking and still being invisable to the target is iunfair and needs to be looked at...like AFTER you have fully decloaked and everybody can see you is when the gun should be able to fire.
the shimmer is not too much of an issue. mianly coeming from the fact i have killed cloaked scouts witha blaster turret due to the shimmer they emmit while sprinting/moveing. and keeping track of them after they cloak mid fire fight.
for the brick tank part i suggest a HP reduction of about 10-15% after fitting the cloak to the suit. that way thier is a choice between being very stealthy or beign a bricked scout that everyone can see. fitting higher tiered claoks should induce a larger hp reduction in contrast to thier scan profile reduction.
why should cloaks reduce hp, people will always find ways to brick tank, and besides, how does a cloak reduce armor/shield hp?
i understand that it could reduce shields but thtat would UP the shield tankers. and armor isnt really a thing that can be reduced since its not really tech, its an object that has mass and used for protection.
but we could reduce the amount of armor plates hp value though
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
BIind Shot
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
86
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 12:47:00 -
[360] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:Racro 01 Arifistan wrote:there a few problems with the cloak. but overall it IS very close to being balanced but needs changes,
as stated shooting your gun WHILE decloaking and still being invisable to the target is iunfair and needs to be looked at...like AFTER you have fully decloaked and everybody can see you is when the gun should be able to fire.
the shimmer is not too much of an issue. mianly coeming from the fact i have killed cloaked scouts witha blaster turret due to the shimmer they emmit while sprinting/moveing. and keeping track of them after they cloak mid fire fight.
for the brick tank part i suggest a HP reduction of about 10-15% after fitting the cloak to the suit. that way thier is a choice between being very stealthy or beign a bricked scout that everyone can see. fitting higher tiered claoks should induce a larger hp reduction in contrast to thier scan profile reduction. why should cloaks reduce hp, people will always find ways to brick tank, and besides, how does a cloak reduce armor/shield hp? i understand that it could reduce shields but thtat would UP the shield tankers. and armor isnt really a thing that can be reduced since its not really tech, its an object that has mass and used for protection. but we could reduce the amount of armor plates hp value though
I think the problem is back in 1.6 they gave plates a huge buff and haven't balanced the other modules to them. Everyone runs plates because they gain the most from the least amount of pg/cpu. Modules need to be rebalanced is all.
and he said unto them, "Bring ye all your trolls, that they shall feed".
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|
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2712
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 13:19:00 -
[361] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
I agree there is a gonna be alot of adaption as well, but there is a difference between adaption and some dodgy mechanics.
I just wa t the dodgy mechanics fixed.
Exactly....I hate cloaks but it is a part of the game now. Will have to accept it but there needs to be a good balance and some things needs to make sense. 1. You should be fully decloaked before you're able to fire and not while you're in the animation. 2. Cooldown should act like every other active module in the game to prevent cloaking spam and being able to cloak all the time. Imagine tanks with the cloak cooldown system...you have to use multiple modules to be able to be hardened at all times now. If vehicle mods worked like cloaks, tanks/DS would have constant active dmg mods and hardeners activated. Skill is seen when you choose to activate your modules. Cloaks should be the same way. 3. You should decloak when you take damage. I don't even understand how people can debate this. It isn't a force field. Why would taking damage break the cloak? The cloak field reflects light around you. Bullets pass right through light.. You said it your self. It's not a force field. That's actually a good point. But then one must pose the question, why is there a shimmer when you get shot? I'm going with the possibility that when you shoot at someone, you do damage to the actual device that creates the cloaking field. And with that, they should decloak. Yes but if you were doing damage to the device as soon as you decloak once, you would be permanently uncloaked until your nexr death. Personally I have no problem with the cloak not buckiling under fire, its meant to be defensive, if the person flees then the cloak should assist. Having rounds disrupt the effect (shield flare) is more than enough. However perosnally I have no problem with cooldown system, however the ratio of Active/Charge times needs to be on the magnitude of 1:1.7. Enough to allow the user a few subsequent cloakings but not enough for prolonged combat. Personally I am more concerned about the ease of fittings. As demonstrated in Pyrex's video referenced earlier this thread, it's possible for a high SP character (or a focused SP character) to have no trouble fitting 1 x Advanced Light Weapon, 1 x Sidearm Weapon, 5 x Armour Plates, 1 x Cloak and 1 x Advanced Equipment. Now Pyrex manages a total of 700 Armour and Smattering of Shields, which on a cloaked unit is slightly ridiculous. Now you may say so plates, put him at a disadvantage, but sacrifice 1 plate for a repper and 1 for Kincat you camt still reach 500 armour, have a suitable amount of reps and a sprint speed faster than most Assaults.
If the device gets destroyed, they can always swap suits at a supply depot. Will help to reduce spam and abuse of the cloak
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
Yan Darn
Science For Death
454
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 13:46:00 -
[362] - Quote
Knight Soiaire wrote:Only problem I have is how people can instantly pull up and shoot their weapon after decloaking, it needs to have some timer that stops you from immediately pulling your weapon and shooting just like an activation timer for REs.
If you're caught while Cloaked, you should not have the chance to instantly fight back, you should have to wait 1-2s before being able to fire back as punishment for being caught.
Sounds in third-person needs to be increased too, out of the +20 times I have been Shotgunned by a decloaker, I have only heard the sound once.
I'm just going to keep mentioning this - because I'm worried CCP might add artificial timers that will make decloaking feel awkward and clunky.
There already is a 'timer' if you manually decloak wih R1 - lets just have it so any action that would decloak you activates the same animation.
Voila - the glitch that some people don't realise is a glitch and not a reason to nerf cloaks is fixed. Right?
The Ghost of Bravo
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2712
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 14:24:00 -
[363] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:Knight Soiaire wrote:Only problem I have is how people can instantly pull up and shoot their weapon after decloaking, it needs to have some timer that stops you from immediately pulling your weapon and shooting just like an activation timer for REs.
If you're caught while Cloaked, you should not have the chance to instantly fight back, you should have to wait 1-2s before being able to fire back as punishment for being caught.
Sounds in third-person needs to be increased too, out of the +20 times I have been Shotgunned by a decloaker, I have only heard the sound once. I'm just going to keep mentioning this - because I'm worried CCP might add artificial timers that will make decloaking feel awkward and clunky. There already is a 'timer' if you manually decloak wih R1 - lets just have it so any action that would decloak you activates the same animation. Voila - the glitch that some people don't realise is a glitch and not a reason to nerf cloaks is fixed. Right?
There doesn't have to be any timers added. There shouldn't be an animation when you decloak or switch to your weapons. Decloaking should be instantaneous so that you don't appear to be still cloaked when you start firing.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
Paul Ellinas
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 17:41:00 -
[364] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:[b]
Cloak Fitting
So with those off the table. We come to the cloak itself.
CCP stated they didn't want cloaks to be scout only tool.
They also stated that they don't want it to make it seem every scouts MUST fit a cloak as well.
These two are most likely going to restrict any changes in the cloak fitting itself
and here we have the main problem! "CCP stated they didn't want cloaks to be scout only tool" why did they gave the scouts then a extra equipment slot? and the CPU/PG for 2 equipments? Now they can leave the second eq slot free and spend the CPU/PG for defense HP and a good weapon.
So in reality scouts have 2 bonus for the cloak compared to the other roles. First the CPU/PG bonus, second the extra equipment slot ( with the CPU/PG who comes along with it).
A reduction from 15% to 13% is a got move let us see if,when and how its gone work out. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14031
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 17:53:00 -
[365] - Quote
Mad Syringe wrote:In EVE, you can't cloak and are decloaked in the proximity of stations/other ships. Why not make it similar in Dust.
If you aproach a cloaked player and have line of sight, you should see his shevron when he is within half your passive BASE scanning distance. Meaning an Assault player would see the chevron when he directly looks at a scout within 5m. But only if he moves, even if it's ever so slightly. If he's standing still the chevron should disappear.
The hp stacking should result in higher speed penalty for scouts so they become much slower when stacking plates.
Flux grenades should scramble the cloak in a slight manner, meaning the cloak shimmers for 3 seconds like full sprint, and the capacity drains at 1.5 times the amount for those 3 seconds.
Decloaking should always require the switchoff animation before using weapon or equipment.
This isn't eve though, you cant lock onto a shimmer in eve even if you do spot it against the black space ground. That's why the whole proximity thing was brought in and to this day cloaking is the most lamented cases of balance in eve to date nearly untouched for so long and there is no way a player could track down an afk cloaked ship.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14031
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 17:55:00 -
[366] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:CPM ears are deaf. Why would any suspect otherwise? They react with the same HTFU and just play the game that CCP does. Thus, you might as well talk to the deaf ears of CCP versus spending any effort on CPM. But that is just from my own personal experience with IWS and my concerns about how CCP was destroying over a year of effort that I put into this character. Which they did. Just as rumored while IWS told me to calm my silly little Merc self down and HTFU. What goes around comes around. In Dust the next step is that whatever that was heads down the drain. Just my experience. Your mileage will vary, one might hope.
We're rather open; being deaf would be ignoring all the cloak threads and going ahead with a bunch of nerfs I purposed before the cloaks landed and trust me if anyone can find that list again they would probably go wtf?
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14031
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 17:56:00 -
[367] - Quote
Paul Ellinas wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:[b]
Cloak Fitting
So with those off the table. We come to the cloak itself.
CCP stated they didn't want cloaks to be scout only tool.
They also stated that they don't want it to make it seem every scouts MUST fit a cloak as well.
These two are most likely going to restrict any changes in the cloak fitting itself
and here we have the main problem! "CCP stated they didn't want cloaks to be scout only tool" why did they gave the scouts then a extra equipment slot? and the CPU/PG for 2 equipments? Now they can leave the second eq slot free and spend the CPU/PG for defense HP and a good weapon. So in reality scouts have 2 bonus for the cloak compared to the other roles. First the CPU/PG bonus, second the extra equipment slot ( with the CPU/PG who comes along with it). A reduction from 15% to 13% is a got move let us see if,when and how its gone work out.
and yet a non cloaking scout can still utilize the second equipment slot for something, maybe a second RE, maybe a scanner its up to the scout really. There is nothing forcing you to fit a cloak in equipment slot.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14033
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 17:59:00 -
[368] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:Knight Soiaire wrote:Only problem I have is how people can instantly pull up and shoot their weapon after decloaking, it needs to have some timer that stops you from immediately pulling your weapon and shooting just like an activation timer for REs.
If you're caught while Cloaked, you should not have the chance to instantly fight back, you should have to wait 1-2s before being able to fire back as punishment for being caught.
Sounds in third-person needs to be increased too, out of the +20 times I have been Shotgunned by a decloaker, I have only heard the sound once. I'm just going to keep mentioning this - because I'm worried CCP might add artificial timers that will make decloaking feel awkward and clunky. There already is a 'timer' if you manually decloak wih R1 - lets just have it so any action that would decloak you activates the same animation. Voila - the glitch that some people don't realise is a glitch and not a reason to nerf cloaks is fixed. Right?
hmm can we discuss the third person sound more? What makes it consistent what doenst? Also try to verify the distance of decloak if they're like me they may be decloaking well out of ear shot then running in.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
hold that
Krusual Covert Operators
Minmatar Republic
78
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 18:13:00 -
[369] - Quote
should uncloak if you take any damage |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14034
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 18:14:00 -
[370] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:CPM ears are deaf. Why would any suspect otherwise? They react with the same HTFU and just play the game that CCP does. Thus, you might as well talk to the deaf ears of CCP versus spending any effort on CPM. But that is just from my own personal experience with IWS and my concerns about how CCP was destroying over a year of effort that I put into this character. Which they did. Just as rumored while IWS told me to calm my silly little Merc self down and HTFU. What goes around comes around. In Dust the next step is that whatever that was heads down the drain. Just my experience. Your mileage will vary, one might hope.
We're tone deaf, CPM really does not like working with people that most likely equitably harasses them every second, every post, and every thread, and every irc/skype comment. This is why most of the cpm don't even visit the forums anymore.
Yes we tolerate a bunch of crap but we dislike it more when people get while illusions of grandeur of how much power the CPM has (and really doesn't)
Lately I been holding up the critics to the same level of expectancies they put on me. So far they all fail their idea of a CPM.
I rather be able to sit here and sift through this thread and let debating voices influence my range of potential thoughts when asked by CCP; rather than say screw it. burn the forums and let people in irc or skype influence me instead.
And based on current complaints... I am so glad we did convince ccp to not do their version of the cloak; cries for cloak outright removal would be the rage of the forums and not calls for adjustments as current.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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|
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Paul Ellinas
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 18:25:00 -
[371] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Paul Ellinas wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:[b]
Cloak Fitting
So with those off the table. We come to the cloak itself.
CCP stated they didn't want cloaks to be scout only tool.
They also stated that they don't want it to make it seem every scouts MUST fit a cloak as well.
These two are most likely going to restrict any changes in the cloak fitting itself
and here we have the main problem! "CCP stated they didn't want cloaks to be scout only tool" why did they gave the scouts then a extra equipment slot? and the CPU/PG for 2 equipments? Now they can leave the second eq slot free and spend the CPU/PG for defense HP and a good weapon. So in reality scouts have 2 bonus for the cloak compared to the other roles. First the CPU/PG bonus, second the extra equipment slot ( with the CPU/PG who comes along with it). A reduction from 15% to 13% is a got move let us see if,when and how its gone work out. and yet a non cloaking scout can still utilize the second equipment slot for something, maybe a second RE, maybe a scanner its up to the scout really. There is nothing forcing you to fit a cloak in equipment slot.
If cloaks r supposed for everyone why didn't assault,commandos,heavies got +1 equipment slot?
Why did the scouts get the second slot? |
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
969
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 18:36:00 -
[372] - Quote
Paul Ellinas wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Paul Ellinas wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:[b]
Cloak Fitting
So with those off the table. We come to the cloak itself.
CCP stated they didn't want cloaks to be scout only tool.
They also stated that they don't want it to make it seem every scouts MUST fit a cloak as well.
These two are most likely going to restrict any changes in the cloak fitting itself
and here we have the main problem! "CCP stated they didn't want cloaks to be scout only tool" why did they gave the scouts then a extra equipment slot? and the CPU/PG for 2 equipments? Now they can leave the second eq slot free and spend the CPU/PG for defense HP and a good weapon. So in reality scouts have 2 bonus for the cloak compared to the other roles. First the CPU/PG bonus, second the extra equipment slot ( with the CPU/PG who comes along with it). A reduction from 15% to 13% is a got move let us see if,when and how its gone work out. and yet a non cloaking scout can still utilize the second equipment slot for something, maybe a second RE, maybe a scanner its up to the scout really. There is nothing forcing you to fit a cloak in equipment slot. If cloaks r supposed for everyone why didn't assault,commandos,heavies got +1 equipment slot? Why did the scouts get the second slot?
i cant believe that needs explaining.
there are a few reasons for that. the main one being that they get a damn bonus for cloaks and it would take away having something useful like RE's
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
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LEHON Xeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
375
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 18:43:00 -
[373] - Quote
Technically I love the cloak function the way it is right now. I love to be able to use it to get into an epic flanking position or behind someone and then take them out with a CR. Then I can quickly get back into cloaking and set up another attack right away.
Some people would say that's OP, but it's a style that I love. For me it's an adrenaline rush twitch style type of gameplay.
Get into an epic flank, uncloak. Take someone out, get spotted by someone else and get shot at. Zoom behind cover, cloak, then rush around the back of the building while invisible and come up behind the guy who was shooting at you and take him out. Recloak again while flanking around to get at an uplink I spotted with my passive scan uncloak and drop an RE by that sucker. Explode that and kill a few people that spawned in, cloak up again and rush around another corner to set up an attack on someone else.
About as fun as it gets for me when I'm not in my logi suit. To me, cloaks right now are the epitome of hit and run attacks. I don't need to run a brick tanked scout suit either. I prefer to rely more on tactics than hp.
Always the last person to leave. Always the one cleaning up people's messes.
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2716
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 19:34:00 -
[374] - Quote
LEHON Xeon wrote:Technically I love the cloak function the way it is right now. I love to be able to use it to get into an epic flanking position or behind someone and then take them out with a CR. Then I can quickly get back into cloaking and set up another attack right away.
Some people would say that's OP, but it's a style that I love. For me it's an adrenaline rush twitch style type of gameplay.
Get into an epic flank, uncloak. Take someone out, get spotted by someone else and get shot at. Zoom behind cover, cloak, then rush around the back of the building while invisible and come up behind the guy who was shooting at you and take him out. Recloak again while flanking around to get at an uplink I spotted with my passive scan uncloak and drop an RE by that sucker. Explode that and kill a few people that spawned in, cloak up again and rush around another corner to set up an attack on someone else.
About as fun as it gets for me when I'm not in my logi suit. To me, cloaks right now are the epitome of hit and run attacks. I don't need to run a brick tanked scout suit either. I prefer to rely more on tactics than hp.
I remember when it was so much fun for those people who used to be gunners in the dropship pilots before the missile nerf in Codex.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
Lylith Groff
Endless Hatred
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 20:05:00 -
[375] - Quote
hold that wrote:should uncloak if you take any damage
I'm afraid that would promote "spraying and praying" and would be rewarding sheer luck. Now, how do you feel about an extended shield flicker effect? As it stands currently, the shield flicker gives you a moment of knowing where the scout is and roughly the direction of where they are going but the flicker ends extremely quickly allowing them to dart in any other direction and you can't keep a crosshair on them. What if the flicker lasted a whole 0.5 - 1.0 second? |
LEHON Xeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
377
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 20:15:00 -
[376] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:LEHON Xeon wrote:Technically I love the cloak function the way it is right now. I love to be able to use it to get into an epic flanking position or behind someone and then take them out with a CR. Then I can quickly get back into cloaking and set up another attack right away.
Some people would say that's OP, but it's a style that I love. For me it's an adrenaline rush twitch style type of gameplay.
Get into an epic flank, uncloak. Take someone out, get spotted by someone else and get shot at. Zoom behind cover, cloak, then rush around the back of the building while invisible and come up behind the guy who was shooting at you and take him out. Recloak again while flanking around to get at an uplink I spotted with my passive scan uncloak and drop an RE by that sucker. Explode that and kill a few people that spawned in, cloak up again and rush around another corner to set up an attack on someone else.
About as fun as it gets for me when I'm not in my logi suit. To me, cloaks right now are the epitome of hit and run attacks. I don't need to run a brick tanked scout suit either. I prefer to rely more on tactics than hp. I remember when it was so much fun for those people who used to be gunners in the dropship pilots before the missile nerf in Codex.
Yeah, that was before my time.
I do think the cloak could use some adjustments, but my big concern is that with the nerf hammer the way it's been in the past, that cloaks would become something completely unlike they are right now. Overall, I think cloaks are in a decent place at the moment, but could just use some tweaking. Right now they offer a reasonable defense against vehicles and heavies, and I think they should be used for hit and run tactics and stealth attacks. I mean for what some people have said already about how they should only be used for crossing an open area (which I do use them for), I could practically do the same thing in an LAV.
Always the last person to leave. Always the one cleaning up people's messes.
|
General12912
Gallente Marine Corps
152
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 20:29:00 -
[377] - Quote
im getting sick of the brick tanked cloaked scouts. they are invisible, and hard to kill at the same time. you try and shotgun one at point-blank (which should really kill any scout in one hit, i dont care which racial variant it is), and it doesnt kill them. i have even shot a caldari scout before with a fully-charged ion pistol shot, and it didnt even penetrate the shields because it had so many shield exenders. its plasma, whch is supposed to be stronger against shields, and the ion pistol's charged shot is supposed to kill soft targets in its one shot. thats why it has a 3 second cooldown after firing a charged shot. its supposed to be worth the cooldown.
TL;DR: the problem isnt the cloaks, but rather the extremely durable brick tank scouts using the cloaks.
before any changes are made to scouts and cloaks, fix the issue with this first. with this issue still in existence, its hard to see the other potential problems.
also, you mentioned CCP wanted cloaks not to be scout only. they arent. i see logis and assaults running them every day.
you mention CCP didnt want to make the cloak a required piece of equipment for a good scout. its not really. i can name a few dedicated scouts who run other stuff, like a scout wiha armor repair tool and nanite injector.
Every suit Gk.0 <3
Gallente Federation Patriot
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2718
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 20:30:00 -
[378] - Quote
LEHON Xeon wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:LEHON Xeon wrote:Technically I love the cloak function the way it is right now. I love to be able to use it to get into an epic flanking position or behind someone and then take them out with a CR. Then I can quickly get back into cloaking and set up another attack right away.
Some people would say that's OP, but it's a style that I love. For me it's an adrenaline rush twitch style type of gameplay.
Get into an epic flank, uncloak. Take someone out, get spotted by someone else and get shot at. Zoom behind cover, cloak, then rush around the back of the building while invisible and come up behind the guy who was shooting at you and take him out. Recloak again while flanking around to get at an uplink I spotted with my passive scan uncloak and drop an RE by that sucker. Explode that and kill a few people that spawned in, cloak up again and rush around another corner to set up an attack on someone else.
About as fun as it gets for me when I'm not in my logi suit. To me, cloaks right now are the epitome of hit and run attacks. I don't need to run a brick tanked scout suit either. I prefer to rely more on tactics than hp. I remember when it was so much fun for those people who used to be gunners in the dropship pilots before the missile nerf in Codex. Yeah, that was before my time. I do think the cloak could use some adjustments, but my big concern is that with the nerf hammer the way it's been in the past, that cloaks would become something completely unlike they are right now. Overall, I think cloaks are in a decent place at the moment, but could just use some tweaking. Right now they offer a reasonable defense against vehicles and heavies, and I think they should be used for hit and run tactics and stealth attacks. I mean for what some people have said already about how they should only be used for crossing an open area (which I do use them for), I could practically do the same thing in an LAV.
cloaks don't need to be overhauled......if they just add the few tweaks/changes that I'm seeing requested over and over, then it should be fine. It will always be cheesy but it wouldn't be so ridiculous.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2718
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 20:32:00 -
[379] - Quote
General12912 wrote:im getting sick of the brick tanked cloaked scouts. they are invisible, and hard to kill at the same time. you try and shotgun one at point-blank (which should really kill any scout in one hit, i dont care which racial variant it is), and it doesnt kill them. i have even shot a caldari scout before with a fully-charged ion pistol shot, and it didnt even penetrate the shields because it had so many shield exenders. its plasma, whch is supposed to be stronger against shields, and the ion pistol's charged shot is supposed to kill soft targets in its one shot. thats why it has a 3 second cooldown after firing a charged shot. its supposed to be worth the cooldown.
TL;DR: the problem isnt the cloaks, but rather the extremely durable brick tank scouts using the cloaks.
before any changes are made to scouts and cloaks, fix the issue with this first. with this issue still in existence, its hard to see the other potential problems.
also, you mentioned CCP wanted cloaks not to be scout only. they arent. i see logis and assaults running them every day.
you mention CCP didnt want to make the cloak a required piece of equipment for a good scout. its not really. i can name a few scout who run other stuff, like a scout wiha armor repair tool and nanite injector.
what will you do vs assaults that are hp stacked? all of these issues against brick tanked scouts as if assault and logi suits don't carry more health. If you nerf the health on a scout, then congratulations...scouts will be easier to kill. But what will you do about brick tanked assaults, logis, and heavies?
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
mollerz
3121
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 20:39:00 -
[380] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
cloaks don't need to be overhauled......if they just add the few tweaks/changes that I'm seeing requested over and over, then it should be fine. It will always be cheesy but it wouldn't be so ridiculous.
They aren't ridiculous. Most of these "tweaks" are though.
You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
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|
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Master Smurf
Nos Nothi
302
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Posted - 2014.03.30 20:52:00 -
[381] - Quote
Lylith Groff wrote:hold that wrote:should uncloak if you take any damage I'm afraid that would promote "spraying and praying" and would be rewarding sheer luck. Now, how do you feel about an extended shield flicker effect? As it stands currently, the shield flicker gives you a moment of knowing where the scout is and roughly the direction of where they are going but the flicker ends extremely quickly allowing them to dart in any other direction and you can't keep a crosshair on them. What if the flicker lasted a whole 0.5 - 1.0 second?
You can have a threshold of 75 - 100 hp. Anything over would cause the decloak animation followed by a recloak 1-2 seconds after
"Shine bright like a diamond"
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1993
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 20:56:00 -
[382] - Quote
I think the decloak sound should be louder to other players, but also different from the player spawning sound. The decloak sound, if heard, doesn't actually convey any information because normally in any position that you're trying to hold there are uplinks around. |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2722
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 21:11:00 -
[383] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
cloaks don't need to be overhauled......if they just add the few tweaks/changes that I'm seeing requested over and over, then it should be fine. It will always be cheesy but it wouldn't be so ridiculous.
They aren't ridiculous. Most of these "tweaks" are though.
You don't think that being able to cloak whenever you feel like for an entire game (by using an advanced or proto) is ridiculous? You don't think that shooting someone in the act of decloaking is unfair?
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1511
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 21:13:00 -
[384] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message. Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with??? No. Just those in agreement get put into queue faster. Those in disagreement takes more evidence, reasoning and time to override my opinion. Most of those I have disagree with have generally failed to meet criteria, such as prototype tanks. Ones meeting criteria, Respecs for 1.8.
you mean like Tech Ohm telling you about unbalanced rifles ?
or how about unbalanced tanks going too fast?
swarm range being nerfed too much?
instead you listened to Tankahiro ,Speaker and others in 1.6 and gave further buffs to tanks and buffs to rifles for 1.7
I hope you listen to shoot while being cloaked is BROKEN
but does it matter?
not really .
the PS4 Migration by September at latest or sooner by June .
If dust remains unbalanced then its other games to play
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
|
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1511
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 21:16:00 -
[385] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:mollerz wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
cloaks don't need to be overhauled......if they just add the few tweaks/changes that I'm seeing requested over and over, then it should be fine. It will always be cheesy but it wouldn't be so ridiculous.
They aren't ridiculous. Most of these "tweaks" are though. You don't think that being able to cloak whenever you feel like for an entire game (by using an advanced or proto) is ridiculous? You don't think that shooting someone in the act of decloaking is unfair?
just a question ?
if dust remains unbalanced with shoot while being cloaked ?
will you move on in July - September to other games ??
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2724
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 21:20:00 -
[386] - Quote
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:mollerz wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
cloaks don't need to be overhauled......if they just add the few tweaks/changes that I'm seeing requested over and over, then it should be fine. It will always be cheesy but it wouldn't be so ridiculous.
They aren't ridiculous. Most of these "tweaks" are though. You don't think that being able to cloak whenever you feel like for an entire game (by using an advanced or proto) is ridiculous? You don't think that shooting someone in the act of decloaking is unfair? just a question ? if dust remains unbalanced with shoot while being cloaked ? will you move on in July - September to other games ??
Not really sure...I mean, I will play other games but I guess you're asking if I would totally abandon dust? I don't think that I'd totally give it up just yet. Dust has improved tremendously..it's just CCP makes some mistakes on the way but I think the game is much different than it was a year ago with much more to come.
There is no other game like Dust because of the persistence and connection to another game, etc. Now, if someone else does what CCP is doing but better...that's another question.
But I like that I've been here from before the start and I'd like to see where this thing goes and be a part of the process as well.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1511
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 21:23:00 -
[387] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:KalOfTheRathi wrote:CPM ears are deaf. Why would any suspect otherwise? They react with the same HTFU and just play the game that CCP does. Thus, you might as well talk to the deaf ears of CCP versus spending any effort on CPM. But that is just from my own personal experience with IWS and my concerns about how CCP was destroying over a year of effort that I put into this character. Which they did. Just as rumored while IWS told me to calm my silly little Merc self down and HTFU. What goes around comes around. In Dust the next step is that whatever that was heads down the drain. Just my experience. Your mileage will vary, one might hope. We're tone deaf, CPM really does not like working with people that most likely equitably harasses them every second, every post, and every thread, and every irc/skype comment. This is why most of the cpm don't even visit the forums anymore. Yes we tolerate a bunch of crap but we dislike it more when people get while illusions of grandeur of how much power the CPM has (and really doesn't) Lately I been holding up the critics to the same level of expectancies they put on me. So far they all fail their idea of a CPM. I rather be able to sit here and sift through this thread and let debating voices influence my range of potential thoughts when asked by CCP; rather than say screw it. burn the forums and let people in irc or skype influence me instead. And based on current complaints... I am so glad we did convince ccp to not do their version of the cloak; cries for cloak outright removal would be the rage of the forums and not calls for adjustments as current.
but CCP had no choice since at best they have until September then time is most definitely up as far as player patience .
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
|
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1511
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 21:29:00 -
[388] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:mollerz wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
cloaks don't need to be overhauled......if they just add the few tweaks/changes that I'm seeing requested over and over, then it should be fine. It will always be cheesy but it wouldn't be so ridiculous.
They aren't ridiculous. Most of these "tweaks" are though. You don't think that being able to cloak whenever you feel like for an entire game (by using an advanced or proto) is ridiculous? You don't think that shooting someone in the act of decloaking is unfair? just a question ? if dust remains unbalanced with shoot while being cloaked ? will you move on in July - September to other games ?? Not really sure...I mean, I will play other games but I guess you're asking if I would totally abandon dust? I don't think that I'd totally give it up just yet. Dust has improved tremendously..it's just CCP makes some mistakes on the way but I think the game is much different than it was a year ago with much more to come. There is no other game like Dust because of the persistence and connection to another game, etc. Now, if someone else does what CCP is doing but better...that's another question. But I like that I've been here from before the start and I'd like to see where this thing goes and be a part of the process as well.
I am willing to sample dust until September but dust has gone downhill since aim assist....meh, scannerinnas...bah, and now harrypotter villa .....BAH!!!!!!
dust is looking more and more casual based instead of skillbased with every new patch iteration.
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
|
General12912
Gallente Marine Corps
154
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 21:34:00 -
[389] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:General12912 wrote:im getting sick of the brick tanked cloaked scouts. they are invisible, and hard to kill at the same time. you try and shotgun one at point-blank (which should really kill any scout in one hit, i dont care which racial variant it is), and it doesnt kill them. i have even shot a caldari scout before with a fully-charged ion pistol shot, and it didnt even penetrate the shields because it had so many shield exenders. its plasma, whch is supposed to be stronger against shields, and the ion pistol's charged shot is supposed to kill soft targets in its one shot. thats why it has a 3 second cooldown after firing a charged shot. its supposed to be worth the cooldown.
TL;DR: the problem isnt the cloaks, but rather the extremely durable brick tank scouts using the cloaks.
before any changes are made to scouts and cloaks, fix the issue with this first. with this issue still in existence, its hard to see the other potential problems.
also, you mentioned CCP wanted cloaks not to be scout only. they arent. i see logis and assaults running them every day.
you mention CCP didnt want to make the cloak a required piece of equipment for a good scout. its not really. i can name a few scout who run other stuff, like a scout wiha armor repair tool and nanite injector. what will you do vs assaults that are hp stacked? all of these issues against brick tanked scouts as if assault and logi suits don't carry more health. If you nerf the health on a scout, then congratulations...scouts will be easier to kill. But what will you do about brick tanked assaults, logis, and heavies?
brick tanked assaults and heavies arent bad really. logis and assaults cannot use a cloak while brick tanked, and heavies dont carry equipment sooooo.
fact is, scouts are supposed to be fragile. one mess up with a cloak or keeping stealthy in any way should be fatal.
assaults, heavies and logis are out there taking heavy fire. HP tanking in any way is viable for any of them, whereas the scout isnt supposed to be able to fight people head-on at all. they are supposed to be good at taking out unsuspecting people, or they arent supposed to be directly aggressive at all. the latter one instead performs surveillance for the team, using their weapon only in self-defense.
the problem is that scouts can take people head on with brick tanking, they are still pretty fast, AND they can use the cloak.
Every suit Gk.0 <3
Gallente Federation Patriot
|
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1511
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 21:45:00 -
[390] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:LEHON Xeon wrote:Technically I love the cloak function the way it is right now. I love to be able to use it to get into an epic flanking position or behind someone and then take them out with a CR. Then I can quickly get back into cloaking and set up another attack right away.
Some people would say that's OP, but it's a style that I love. For me it's an adrenaline rush twitch style type of gameplay.
Get into an epic flank, uncloak. Take someone out, get spotted by someone else and get shot at. Zoom behind cover, cloak, then rush around the back of the building while invisible and come up behind the guy who was shooting at you and take him out. Recloak again while flanking around to get at an uplink I spotted with my passive scan uncloak and drop an RE by that sucker. Explode that and kill a few people that spawned in, cloak up again and rush around another corner to set up an attack on someone else.
About as fun as it gets for me when I'm not in my logi suit. To me, cloaks right now are the epitome of hit and run attacks. I don't need to run a brick tanked scout suit either. I prefer to rely more on tactics than hp. I remember when it was so much fun for those people who used to be gunners in the dropship pilots before the missile nerf in Codex.
thats part of the reason longtime players are bailing come September
Sagaris Surya so much fun FOR THEM!!!! to go 80 and 0
not fun when being killed by them going 0 and 20
repeat for infantry dying to swarms, atomic frizzbees, fused contact grenades , TAC AR , core flaylock, railrifles, viziam lasers, 15 orbitals per match earned from repairing blue squad jeeps, 780 damage from sniper rifles on manus peak,
its always fun for folks running a broken gun or mechanic for kills
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
|
|
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Lylith Groff
Endless Hatred
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 21:46:00 -
[391] - Quote
As a dedicated Scout since before Chrome, cloaks are easy mode.
You don't have to fit anything past an advanced cloak. 60 seconds is an eternity on the battlefield and for those who have learned to micro-manage their cloaking habits, you never have to worry about running out. There's no risk. Fitting a cloak is a great advantage but there's no sacrifice on the fitting screen either. Reduce our bonus to cloak fitting. I would also advocate for the cloaking device stats being changed. Cloaking times for Std/Adv/Cplx possibly being 20/30/45 secs. with reactivation being 50%/66%/66%. With complete drain you'd have to wait 10/20/30 secs.
The risks the scouts had before 1.8 have mostly been removed due to how lenient the cloak is. Instant on/instant off needs to be corrected. Give it a charge up time when activated as if the suit is rerouting power and calibrating the cloaking device and a cooldown upon deactivation as if the suit is rerouting power to your primary systems again. This will force people to think when to or not to use the device.
As far as I understood the reasoning for having cloaks, they were to be used as a positioning tool. To allow scouts to traverse open terrain with less fear of rifles. Any scout will tell you that any rifle is a sniper rifle. Open terrain between cover was approached with extreme caution and paranoia. Now, I'm against the cloaking device deactivating when taking damage because this will promote "praying and spraying" which rewards luck. I am however thinking that an extended shield flicker effect would help people who spotted a cloaker in keeping their crosshair on the cloaked mercenary. Currently there's no punishment for being seen.
Speaking about forcing mercenaries to decloak. A cloaking device is essentially bending light around you. Flux grenades are an EMP device, Electro-Magnetic Pulse. Light is apart of the EM band. Flux grenades should overload a cloaking device as well as any flash-bang grenade if one ever gets implemented. There needs to be a counter. This would help mercs against a cloaker inside buildings.
Another reasonable expectation while having the cloak activated is having your systems struggling to interpret any incoming data so your prey vanishes from your passive scanner as well as seeing false positives. Additionally, the ability to hack while cloaked should be removed. Having any Wi-Fi while cocooned in a distortion-well doesn't make much sense to me.
Having your cloak deactivate while in proximity to another mercenary, supply depot, CRU or null cannon would add another level of strategy but I see that's being frowned upon. I think having two scouts decloak and having an "oh sh*t" moment because one got too close to the other would be hilarious. It would force you to think of entry and exit points more thoroughly.
Brick tanking scouts are a problem... in a sense. It's their ability to get under your passive and find a superior position. This, coupled with a rifle which is mid-range, is what is more powerful than a SG. It takes the enemy a slight bit more time to find and target. Brick tanked scouts w/o a cloak would be just as powerful. People who brick tank shore up the scouts weakness and yet still have the passive scanner bonuses because the suit's default value has been changed. This one is tricky but changing the HP modules to a percentage based gain versus a flat number would correct this... but the Devs would have to adjust all the other suits accordingly so no other suit suffered. In other words, a time vampire. Another possibility is that the cloak shimmer should be increased so that dampeners can reduce cloak shimmer while plates increase shimmer again, not sure about this one because I have put much thought into it. Maybe just the increase in shimmer with the dampener counter would be enough.
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BIind Shot
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
89
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 22:02:00 -
[392] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:mollerz wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
cloaks don't need to be overhauled......if they just add the few tweaks/changes that I'm seeing requested over and over, then it should be fine. It will always be cheesy but it wouldn't be so ridiculous.
They aren't ridiculous. Most of these "tweaks" are though. You don't think that being able to cloak whenever you feel like for an entire game (by using an advanced or proto) is ridiculous? You don't think that shooting someone in the act of decloaking is unfair?
Why are you exaggerating? You know full well the adv cloak only lasts 60 seconds; the proto is 80.. That would be the fastest ambush ever.
and he said unto them, "Bring ye all your trolls, that they shall feed".
|
BIind Shot
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
89
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 22:15:00 -
[393] - Quote
Lylith Groff wrote:As a dedicated Scout since before Chrome, cloaks are easy mode.
You don't have to fit anything past an advanced cloak. 60 seconds is an eternity on the battlefield and for those who have learned to micro-manage their cloaking habits, you never have to worry about running out. There's no risk. Fitting a cloak is a great advantage but there's no sacrifice on the fitting screen either. Reduce our bonus to cloak fitting. I would also advocate for the cloaking device stats being changed. Cloaking times for Std/Adv/Cplx possibly being 20/30/45 secs. with reactivation being 50%/66%/66%. With complete drain you'd have to wait 10/20/30 secs.
The risks the scouts had before 1.8 have mostly been removed due to how lenient the cloak is. Instant on/instant off needs to be corrected. Give it a charge up time when activated as if the suit is rerouting power and calibrating the cloaking device and a cooldown upon deactivation as if the suit is rerouting power to your primary systems again. This will force people to think when to or not to use the device.
As far as I understood the reasoning for having cloaks, they were to be used as a positioning tool. To allow scouts to traverse open terrain with less fear of rifles. Any scout will tell you that any rifle is a sniper rifle. Open terrain between cover was approached with extreme caution and paranoia. Now, I'm against the cloaking device deactivating when taking damage because this will promote "praying and spraying" which rewards luck. I am however thinking that an extended shield flicker effect would help people who spotted a cloaker in keeping their crosshair on the cloaked mercenary. Currently there's no punishment for being seen.
Speaking about forcing mercenaries to decloak. A cloaking device is essentially bending light around you. Flux grenades are an EMP device, Electro-Magnetic Pulse. Light is apart of the EM band. Flux grenades should overload a cloaking device as well as any flash-bang grenade if one ever gets implemented. There needs to be a counter. This would help mercs against a cloaker inside buildings.
Another reasonable expectation while having the cloak activated is having your systems struggling to interpret any incoming data so your prey vanishes from your passive scanner as well as seeing false positives. Additionally, the ability to hack while cloaked should be removed. Having any Wi-Fi while cocooned in a distortion-well doesn't make much sense to me.
Having your cloak deactivate while in proximity to another mercenary, supply depot, CRU or null cannon would add another level of strategy but I see that's being frowned upon. I think having two scouts decloak and having an "oh sh*t" moment because one got too close to the other would be hilarious. It would force you to think of entry and exit points more thoroughly.
Brick tanking scouts are a problem... in a sense. It's their ability to get under your passive and find a superior position. This, coupled with a rifle which is mid-range, is what is more powerful than a SG. It takes the enemy a slight bit more time to find and target. Brick tanked scouts w/o a cloak would be just as powerful. People who brick tank shore up the scouts weakness and yet still have the passive scanner bonuses because the suit's default value has been changed. This one is tricky but changing the HP modules to a percentage based gain versus a flat number would correct this... but the Devs would have to adjust all the other suits accordingly so no other suit suffered. In other words, a time vampire. Another possibility is that the cloak shimmer should be increased so that dampeners can reduce cloak shimmer while plates increase shimmer again, not sure about this one because I have put much thought into it. Maybe just the increase in shimmer with the dampener counter would be enough.
You've been playing for so long yet you have 3 likes. Either you have really bad posts or you're just pretending to make it seem like a scout agree's he's so OP and needs nerfed before he destroys the game.
and he said unto them, "Bring ye all your trolls, that they shall feed".
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2727
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 22:24:00 -
[394] - Quote
BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:mollerz wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
cloaks don't need to be overhauled......if they just add the few tweaks/changes that I'm seeing requested over and over, then it should be fine. It will always be cheesy but it wouldn't be so ridiculous.
They aren't ridiculous. Most of these "tweaks" are though. You don't think that being able to cloak whenever you feel like for an entire game (by using an advanced or proto) is ridiculous? You don't think that shooting someone in the act of decloaking is unfair? Why are you exaggerating? You know full well the adv cloak only lasts 60 seconds; the proto is 80.. That would be the fastest ambush ever.
I can activate my cloak and flank some enemies. I would decloak only to kill someone. While, I am killing someone, my cloak cooldown is regenerating. Once I've killed the guy, I can cloak and go flank someone else. With this system, I can cloak anytime I want and stay cloaked for as long as I need. I wouldn't need 60 secs to get away from someone.
With tanks, you have to be careful when you activate your modules..because the moment they are deactivated, you have to wait the entire cooldown time to be able to use it again. I would have damage mods activated anytime I needed them to if I pulled out my tank.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
Lylith Groff
Endless Hatred
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 22:35:00 -
[395] - Quote
BIind Shot wrote:Lylith Groff wrote:As a dedicated Scout since before Chrome, cloaks are easy mode.
You don't have to fit anything past an advanced cloak. 60 seconds is an eternity on the battlefield and for those who have learned to micro-manage their cloaking habits, you never have to worry about running out. There's no risk. Fitting a cloak is a great advantage but there's no sacrifice on the fitting screen either. Reduce our bonus to cloak fitting. I would also advocate for the cloaking device stats being changed. Cloaking times for Std/Adv/Cplx possibly being 20/30/45 secs. with reactivation being 50%/66%/66%. With complete drain you'd have to wait 10/20/30 secs.
The risks the scouts had before 1.8 have mostly been removed due to how lenient the cloak is. Instant on/instant off needs to be corrected. Give it a charge up time when activated as if the suit is rerouting power and calibrating the cloaking device and a cooldown upon deactivation as if the suit is rerouting power to your primary systems again. This will force people to think when to or not to use the device.
As far as I understood the reasoning for having cloaks, they were to be used as a positioning tool. To allow scouts to traverse open terrain with less fear of rifles. Any scout will tell you that any rifle is a sniper rifle. Open terrain between cover was approached with extreme caution and paranoia. Now, I'm against the cloaking device deactivating when taking damage because this will promote "praying and spraying" which rewards luck. I am however thinking that an extended shield flicker effect would help people who spotted a cloaker in keeping their crosshair on the cloaked mercenary. Currently there's no punishment for being seen.
Speaking about forcing mercenaries to decloak. A cloaking device is essentially bending light around you. Flux grenades are an EMP device, Electro-Magnetic Pulse. Light is apart of the EM band. Flux grenades should overload a cloaking device as well as any flash-bang grenade if one ever gets implemented. There needs to be a counter. This would help mercs against a cloaker inside buildings.
Another reasonable expectation while having the cloak activated is having your systems struggling to interpret any incoming data so your prey vanishes from your passive scanner as well as seeing false positives. Additionally, the ability to hack while cloaked should be removed. Having any Wi-Fi while cocooned in a distortion-well doesn't make much sense to me.
Having your cloak deactivate while in proximity to another mercenary, supply depot, CRU or null cannon would add another level of strategy but I see that's being frowned upon. I think having two scouts decloak and having an "oh sh*t" moment because one got too close to the other would be hilarious. It would force you to think of entry and exit points more thoroughly.
Brick tanking scouts are a problem... in a sense. It's their ability to get under your passive and find a superior position. This, coupled with a rifle which is mid-range, is what is more powerful than a SG. It takes the enemy a slight bit more time to find and target. Brick tanked scouts w/o a cloak would be just as powerful. People who brick tank shore up the scouts weakness and yet still have the passive scanner bonuses because the suit's default value has been changed. This one is tricky but changing the HP modules to a percentage based gain versus a flat number would correct this... but the Devs would have to adjust all the other suits accordingly so no other suit suffered. In other words, a time vampire. Another possibility is that the cloak shimmer should be increased so that dampeners can reduce cloak shimmer while plates increase shimmer again, not sure about this one because I have put much thought into it. Maybe just the increase in shimmer with the dampener counter would be enough.
You've been playing for so long yet you have 3 likes. Either you have really bad posts or you're just pretending to make it seem like a scout agree's he's so OP and needs nerfed before he destroys the game.
I rarely post, [shrug]. The amount of likes I have dictates how much worth my opinion has? I'm not claiming to be OP either, I'm merely stating there needs to be counters to what we have... there's barely any struggle anymore. And about the comment I made mentioning how long I've played, it's merely to point out that I've played before and after 1.8. I can see the differences the changes have brought about. |
BIind Shot
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
91
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 22:35:00 -
[396] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:mollerz wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
cloaks don't need to be overhauled......if they just add the few tweaks/changes that I'm seeing requested over and over, then it should be fine. It will always be cheesy but it wouldn't be so ridiculous.
They aren't ridiculous. Most of these "tweaks" are though. You don't think that being able to cloak whenever you feel like for an entire game (by using an advanced or proto) is ridiculous? You don't think that shooting someone in the act of decloaking is unfair? Why are you exaggerating? You know full well the adv cloak only lasts 60 seconds; the proto is 80.. That would be the fastest ambush ever. I can activate my cloak and flank some enemies. I would decloak only to kill someone. While, I am killing someone, my cloak cooldown is regenerating. Once I've killed the guy, I can cloak and go flank someone else. With this system, I can cloak anytime I want and stay cloaked for as long as I need. I wouldn't need 60 secs to get away from someone. With tanks, you have to be careful when you activate your modules..because the moment they are deactivated, you have to wait the entire cooldown time to be able to use it again. I would have damage mods activated anytime I needed them to if I pulled out my tank.
Ya well a tank moves at 30mps and has 3,000-10,000 hp (I guess. not sure. Maybe without hardeners?) I'm a scout moving at a blazing speed of 10.3 with 400 hp. To compare the two is ridiculous.
and he said unto them, "Bring ye all your trolls, that they shall feed".
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2728
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 22:55:00 -
[397] - Quote
BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I can activate my cloak and flank some enemies. I would decloak only to kill someone. While, I am killing someone, my cloak cooldown is regenerating. Once I've killed the guy, I can cloak and go flank someone else. With this system, I can cloak anytime I want and stay cloaked for as long as I need. I wouldn't need 60 secs to get away from someone.
With tanks, you have to be careful when you activate your modules..because the moment they are deactivated, you have to wait the entire cooldown time to be able to use it again. I would have damage mods activated anytime I needed them to if I pulled out my tank.
Ya well a tank moves at 30mps and has 3,000-10,000 hp (I guess. not sure. Maybe without hardeners?) I'm a scout moving at a blazing speed of 10.3 with 400 hp. To compare the two is ridiculous.
??
It is the modules that are up for comparison. The point is that the cloak should behave like every other active module in the game.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
Auris Lionesse
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Dirt Nap Squad.
606
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 23:10:00 -
[398] - Quote
Just give the scouts a 99% role bonus reduction instead of per level so it doesn't affect any of the scouts.
Scouts have to run cloaks because all the equipment sucks now.
what they did with logos was awful and scanners are broken.
Scanner has a longer cooldown time than visibility time.
This should be the same for scouts.
Or reverse scanners and make them have shorter cooldowns.
They need to be equals.
We need to pitch in an buy everyone at Ccpshanghai a couple plex's for eve so they can learn what this game is supposed to be like.
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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Zaaeed Massani
RisingSuns
72
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Posted - 2014.03.30 23:28:00 -
[399] - Quote
Overall I feel like cloaks are fairly well designed. They just need a larger delay between decloaking nd firing. And fluxes need to break cloak.
I'd like to see shotguns receive a slight, slight damage nerf at lower tiers just to stop militia-geared scouts from wrecking proto heavies so easily.
Proto SG scouts SHOULD be able to wreck.
3/10 Federal Marines
3/10 Republic Command
Commando Pride
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14040
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 23:53:00 -
[400] - Quote
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message. Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with??? No. Just those in agreement get put into queue faster. Those in disagreement takes more evidence, reasoning and time to override my opinion. Most of those I have disagree with have generally failed to meet criteria, such as prototype tanks. Ones meeting criteria, Respecs for 1.8. you mean like Tech Ohm telling you about unbalanced rifles ? or how about unbalanced tanks going too fast? swarm range being nerfed too much? instead you listened to Tankahiro ,Speaker and others in 1.6 and gave further buffs to tanks and buffs to rifles for 1.7 I hope you listen to shoot while being cloaked is BROKEN but does it matter? not really . the PS4 Migration by September at latest or sooner by June . If dust remains unbalanced then its other games to play
Me listen to takario? buwhahahaha >< sorry let me find a rug so I can roll on the floor to laugh.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
|
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Denn Maell
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
254
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 02:01:00 -
[401] - Quote
Off Topic: IWS, can you confirm that the shotguns haven't been 'tweaked' or 'glitched' in some way when they adjusted the proficiency bonus from RoF to Shield damage? I've only used shotguns a little pre-1.8 but I think there are some differences in its range/rate of fire now. (also I only have SG Op.3 and I notice it seems to be working differently)
Sorry for the off topic, but the two issues seem to be related to me, beyond the ability to fire before decloak issue.
The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field:
One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
740
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 02:04:00 -
[402] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:mollerz wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
cloaks don't need to be overhauled......if they just add the few tweaks/changes that I'm seeing requested over and over, then it should be fine. It will always be cheesy but it wouldn't be so ridiculous.
They aren't ridiculous. Most of these "tweaks" are though. You don't think that being able to cloak whenever you feel like for an entire game (by using an advanced or proto) is ridiculous? You don't think that shooting someone in the act of decloaking is unfair? Why are you exaggerating? You know full well the adv cloak only lasts 60 seconds; the proto is 80.. That would be the fastest ambush ever. I can activate my cloak and flank some enemies. I would decloak only to kill someone. While, I am killing someone, my cloak cooldown is regenerating. Once I've killed the guy, I can cloak and go flank someone else. With this system, I can cloak anytime I want and stay cloaked for as long as I need. I wouldn't need 60 secs to get away from someone. With tanks, you have to be careful when you activate your modules..because the moment they are deactivated, you have to wait the entire cooldown time to be able to use it again. I would have damage mods activated anytime I needed them to if I pulled out my tank.
Tanks have to be careful? What a joke until the recent changes they were so OP it was a joke.
Enough bitching about the cloak, I hope you don't listen to the vocal few. The majority of players I speak with feel it's fairly balanced.
I guess in the end CCP probably listens to you as much as us so it's all good.
...
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2732
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 13:21:00 -
[403] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:
Enough bitching about the cloak, I hope you don't listen to the vocal few. The majority of players I speak with feel it's fairly balanced.
I guess in the end CCP probably listens to you as much as us so it's all good.
Funny thing cause the majority of the people that I speak with thinks that the cloak is a joke. Most use it to adapt with the times but are definitely aware of the tweeks that are needed.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
40
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 13:54:00 -
[404] - Quote
I posted this idea in King Barbar's thread about cloaked scouts.
All the infantry balance issues seem to revolve around brick tanking. If CCP implemented a "damage-mod-style" stacking penalty (100%-87%-~45% efficiency) on armor plates it would be impossible for scouts to get as close to assault suit hp and people would feel less bad about cloaked scouts.
This would also have various additional benefits such as promoting varied fittings, preventing logis from stacking hp as close to heavy hp or too much higher than assault hp, addressing the imbalance between shield and armor tanking. I know this is an idea that people have come up with many times before but the more I think about it the more sense it makes. Tell me where I am going wrong. |
NAV HIV
The Generals
General Tso's Alliance
1299
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 14:00:00 -
[405] - Quote
Cloak Should be Used by Scout suits only... .Currently the fitting requirement and bonuses are great, but players are using it on Logistics and Commando Suits.
Player should not be allowed to shoot while remaining cloaked. CCP said they fixed it with the latest Hotfix... If this works, then there shouldn't be a lot of issued with cloaks.
Except for the Brick tankers other Scout suits need the cloak if they wanna survive and do proper scouting. If you wanna build a proper scout suit with a ck0 you'll end up with 320-390 total EHP... 500-650 with gal scout... You can see the problem in HP there... Scout ak0, ck0 and mk0, well they can't fight a gk0 most of the times even if they flank them and use the element of surprise... Problem isn't cloaking, it's brick tanking... The main problem was the Bug, which CCP fixed apprently |
Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
740
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 14:52:00 -
[406] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Ares 514 wrote:
Enough bitching about the cloak, I hope you don't listen to the vocal few. The majority of players I speak with feel it's fairly balanced.
I guess in the end CCP probably listens to you as much as us so it's all good.
Funny thing cause the majority of the people that I speak with thinks that the cloak is a joke. Most use it to adapt with the times but are definitely aware of the tweeks that are needed.
At first some were complaining about the cloak but once they got used to watching out for it not as much. What I hear now that you don't see people bitching about is the heavies. They are beast and their range has been increased. Lately when one side starts loosing I see them spamming heavies not scouts.
...
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Shadowswipe
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
204
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 15:14:00 -
[407] - Quote
TL:DR for the entire thread at this point. Just gonna throw my two cents in really quick and let the people following this thread track where my money goes.
Decloaking could benefit from an INCREASE for 2 seconds to scan profile as the system destabilizes. This would mean the moment they switch weapons, pretty much everyone except an unskilled player would see the player on the TACNET. I think this might make some science sense and give some "OH CRAP!" warnings that could lead to some interesting gameplay on both ends.
The cloaker would know that they only have a split second as aware people will notice them very quickly. The target will have a moment to try to out twitch the cloaker. The Cloaker still has the advantage, but at a price of very temporarily giving his position away. After the 1 or 2 seconds of showing up on the TACNET, they would become invisible again if they are setup to avoid scans. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14043
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 16:43:00 -
[408] - Quote
Denn Maell wrote:Off Topic: IWS, can you confirm that the shotguns haven't been 'tweaked' or 'glitched' in some way when they adjusted the proficiency bonus from RoF to Shield damage? I've only used shotguns a little pre-1.8 but I think there are some differences in its range/rate of fire now. (also I only have SG Op.3 and I notice it seems to be working differently)
Sorry for the off topic, but the two issues seem to be related to me, beyond the ability to fire before decloak issue.
Some hit issues have cropped back up and ccp is trying to resolve them.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
NAV HIV
The Generals
General Tso's Alliance
1302
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 19:13:00 -
[409] - Quote
Shadowswipe wrote:TL:DR for the entire thread at this point. Just gonna throw my two cents in really quick and let the people following this thread track where my money goes.
Decloaking could benefit from an INCREASE for 2 seconds to scan profile as the system destabilizes. This would mean the moment they switch weapons, pretty much everyone except an unskilled player would see the player on the TACNET. I think this might make some science sense and give some "OH CRAP!" warnings that could lead to some interesting gameplay on both ends.
The cloaker would know that they only have a split second as aware people will notice them very quickly. The target will have a moment to try to out twitch the cloaker. The Cloaker still has the advantage, but at a price of very temporarily giving his position away. After the 1 or 2 seconds of showing up on the TACNET, they would become invisible again if they are setup to avoid scans.
What if that cloaker has two Complex Profile dampener on?! It would beat the purpose of using those modules then wouldn't it ? !
|
Scout Registry
Nos Nothi
1860
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 19:21:00 -
[410] - Quote
Shadowswipe wrote:
I'm having a hard time keeping tabs on my surroundings.
So I should be cloaked with bells on, yes?
To help you watch your flank?
My grandparents have a backup camera on their minivan.
Perhaps you can ask CCP for one of those. |
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2734
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 19:43:00 -
[411] - Quote
Scout Registry wrote:Shadowswipe wrote:
I'm having a hard time keeping tabs on my surroundings.
So I should be cloaked with bells on, yes? To help you watch your flank? Brings to mind backup cameras on minivans.
It's funny that you're clowning him for not being able to see invisible players as a reflection of his low situational awareness. But yet, you have to use a cloak to flank.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
jerrmy12 kahoalii
789
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 19:52:00 -
[412] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Scout Registry wrote:Shadowswipe wrote:
I'm having a hard time keeping tabs on my surroundings.
So I should be cloaked with bells on, yes? To help you watch your flank? Brings to mind backup cameras on minivans. It's funny that you're clowning him for not being able to see invisible players as a reflection of his low situational awareness. But yet, you have to use a cloak to flank.
No it just helps
Now get off this thread I see cloaks fine, killed many cloakers today command8 c1 with magsec smg
Closed beta vet
Tears, sweet delicious tears
|
Scout Registry
Nos Nothi
1864
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 19:55:00 -
[413] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Scout Registry wrote:Shadowswipe wrote:
I'm having a hard time keeping tabs on my surroundings.
So I should be cloaked with bells on, yes? To help you watch your flank? Brings to mind backup cameras on minivans. It's funny that you're clowning him for not being able to see invisible players as a reflection of his low situational awareness. But yet, you have to use a cloak to flank.
I've been flanking since Chrome, good sir.
Certainly not as well as Demzor or Dominance, but flanking nonetheless.
The invisibility glitch was addressed. Thankfully.
Firing whilst decloaking should be also addressed.
On these points, we all agree.
As for former idea that cloak require its user to announce his arrival ...
Yes, I am laughing at that idea.
It is a laughably bad idea.
|
Mike Ox Bigger
Skill Shots
194
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 19:55:00 -
[414] - Quote
I don't know about you guys but ever since 1.8 hit I run nothing but complex precision enhancers in my highs on every suit I run now. With two on a suit I see a lot, with three on a suit I see almost everything.
Nothing is better than turning around and killing a cloaked scout who thinks he's sneaking up on you. |
jerrmy12 kahoalii
789
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 19:59:00 -
[415] - Quote
Mike Ox Bigger wrote:I don't know about you guys but ever since 1.8 hit I run nothing but complex precision enhancers in my highs on every suit I run now. With two on a suit I see a lot, with three on a suit I see almost everything.
Nothing is better than turning around and killing a cloaked scout who thinks he's sneaking up on you.
I run two comolex damps, goodluck
Closed beta vet
Tears, sweet delicious tears
|
Scout Registry
Nos Nothi
1865
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 20:23:00 -
[416] - Quote
jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:Mike Ox Bigger wrote:I don't know about you guys but ever since 1.8 hit I run nothing but complex precision enhancers in my highs on every suit I run now. With two on a suit I see a lot, with three on a suit I see almost everything.
Nothing is better than turning around and killing a cloaked scout who thinks he's sneaking up on you. I run two comolex damps, goodluck
You've opted for added stealth over brick or speed; so you're dead if you miss your flank attack, overestimate your odds, underestimate your opponent, or get spotted. Most Scouts are running fits which forgive more error than yours; these are the Scouts that Ox is hunting. |
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
969
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 00:43:00 -
[417] - Quote
just make them claok sound loud enough to be heard but not as loud as novaa knives and it can be heard from 10m away
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
STEALTH HUNTER ZERO
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
267
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 01:03:00 -
[418] - Quote
A delay of .5 to 1 second when switching to a weapon wouldn't be too harsh, but I really think its more with the animation not making you visible as soon as you hit the button to swap to your weapon.
As far as the brick tanked scouts go (bad idea anyway), how about increasing the sprint/movement penalty as well as adding a turning penalty. Also, increase their PG cost while reducing the fitting costs of ferroscale/reactive plates since you already get far less HP, people rarely use them since they are difficult to fit along with kincats and cardiac regs. Those changes would easily fix the brick tanked scout issue. |
Yan Darn
Science For Death
476
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 13:19:00 -
[419] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Yan Darn wrote:Knight Soiaire wrote:Only problem I have is how people can instantly pull up and shoot their weapon after decloaking, it needs to have some timer that stops you from immediately pulling your weapon and shooting just like an activation timer for REs.
If you're caught while Cloaked, you should not have the chance to instantly fight back, you should have to wait 1-2s before being able to fire back as punishment for being caught.
Sounds in third-person needs to be increased too, out of the +20 times I have been Shotgunned by a decloaker, I have only heard the sound once. I'm just going to keep mentioning this - because I'm worried CCP might add artificial timers that will make decloaking feel awkward and clunky. There already is a 'timer' if you manually decloak wih R1 - lets just have it so any action that would decloak you activates the same animation. Voila - the glitch that some people don't realise is a glitch and not a reason to nerf cloaks is fixed. Right? There doesn't have to be any timers added. There shouldn't be an animation when you decloak or switch to your weapons. Decloaking should be instantaneous so that you don't appear to be still cloaked when you start firing. If there has to be an animation, then you should only be able to fire AFTER you are fully visible.
I suppose it needs testing - but in my experience you can't do **** until the animation finishes, by which point you are decloaked I.e from first person you never see your weapon in any kind of cloak animation, where as weapon switching you still see at least the glow that occurs from decloaking on your weapon.
The Ghost of Bravo
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2735
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 13:23:00 -
[420] - Quote
Scout Registry wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Scout Registry wrote:Shadowswipe wrote:
I'm having a hard time keeping tabs on my surroundings.
So I should be cloaked with bells on, yes? To help you watch your flank? Brings to mind backup cameras on minivans. It's funny that you're clowning him for not being able to see invisible players as a reflection of his low situational awareness. But yet, you have to use a cloak to flank. Been flanking since the long lost days Chrome, good sir. Certainly not as well as Demzor or Dominance, but flanking nonetheless. The invisibility glitch was addressed. Thankfully. Firing whilst decloaking should be also addressed. On these points of concern, we all agree. As for the idea that cloak require its user to announce his arrival ... Which would altogether defeat the purpose of cloaking ... Yes, I am laughing at that idea. It is a laughably bad idea.
Yes, I do agree that there shouldn't be bells and whistles when you decloak. However, I do believe that there shouldn't be animatikn when decloaking to allow for instant visibility when you switch weapons.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
|
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14053
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 20:03:00 -
[421] - Quote
I haven't poked dennie or any other test groups about testing but as it seems now most of this conversation is likely going have to shift to next patch talk now.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
jerrmy12 kahoalii
830
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 20:10:00 -
[422] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I haven't poked dennie or any other test groups about testing but as it seems now most of this conversation is likely going have to shift to next patch talk now.
So....shield extender and shield heavy buffs.......
And nerf shield heavues armor and reduce gallente and amar shields
Buff minmatar and caldari shields if buffing values, by 50 or 100, or something.
Closed beta vet
Tears, sweet delicious tears
|
anaboop
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
12
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 21:25:00 -
[423] - Quote
Been testing out bpo dragonfly scout suit, fitting even the most basic junk on it and still being able to take out protos, and advanced.
Running basic cloak, militia shotty, militia cpu module. Cost 4k total. No skills into shotguns or scout suits.
It seems scouts have the best of both worlds stealthy and damage, though its the stealth which allows them to get in close to cause the damage. So doing something to one or the other wont work in my eyes.
The problem seems to be that other suits need to lose all the modules they usually use in place of profile amps and precisions just to see them or try to hide from them. They need to either be hard to find, or be able spot enemies easily, not both least not on the same suit. Make 2 suits good at hiding and 2 good at spotting.
I know people are going to say they are scouts and thats there role, but i think taking one advantage away like that may balance them out without taking something that will cripple them away.
Anywho, I dont have much problem with them since Im testing a radarfit which is able to spot any scout cloaked or not, my only downside is i cant hide from them at the same time, which in turn is why im unable to constantly ruin scouts plans, (which is good) I dont want 100% counter to them, though some wps for bring a dedicated radar would be nice, not sure how but yeah.
I tried to keep it short, just my thoughts.
What do scout users think of that?, no need to be nasty about either. Sacrificing either stealthiness, or your scanning precision depending on your scout suit. So that you dont have both, instead of a damage, slot or something else nerf?
I think it sounds reasonable |
Shadow of War88
0uter.Heaven
202
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 21:33:00 -
[424] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Ares 514 wrote:
Enough bitching about the cloak, I hope you don't listen to the vocal few. The majority of players I speak with feel it's fairly balanced.
I guess in the end CCP probably listens to you as much as us so it's all good.
Funny thing cause the majority of the people that I speak with thinks that the cloak is a joke. Most use it to adapt with the times but are definitely aware of the tweeks that are needed.
The Caldari master race graciously equipped its scouts with a advanced sensor package that shames other nations for even trying to cloak. Cloaks are not OP by any means. All hail the State and the x2 complex precision enhancers and range amps.
& justice for all
|
Revelations 514
Red Star.
EoN.
148
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 22:34:00 -
[425] - Quote
I think cloaks are in a good spot. I was worried initially, but they seem to be fairly balanced. I hadn't played since July of last year and had a blast recently. As an old-school SG Scout, I have 0 change in my battle effectiveness from July. This means that the changes that made the Scout even more difficult to play has been balanced against the changes that made it easier. At least to me.
However the primary difference I see is not in the stats I am achieving, but in the fun of the play. When I die now, it's not when I had the jump on a guy, shot him in the face twice, yet still got mowed down in 2 seconds by an AR. When I die now, it's because my opponent out-played me or I did something that ended up a bad idea in hindsight.
On the counter of this, when I kill someone, I still earn it. Only now when I use every variable in my favor it usually works out, well in my favor.
I couldn't believe all the QQ on here about cloaks after playing them for a week and thinking to myself that it was actually done pretty well. ( I was worried before implementation that they had pre-nerfed them too hard from what I had read). Anyways, that's my thoughts on it being a career SG Scout and having data from July and now to compare to.
Old Tactics from July - Sit in a corner of a niche or wall, wait for someone to run past, sneak up from behind and try to get the kill. Occasionally use RE's in a variety of ways to get the odd kill or so.
New Tactics from last week - Run to an objective, ( I typically play skirmish), cloak just before arrival. Move slowly as to not attract too much attention. Sneak up behind player and try to get the kill. Occasionally use RE's in a variety of ways to get kills.
So as you see, it's the same tactic but the difference is that I can actually play the objectives now, instead of being a wall camper that does nothing to benefit the team goal. The old style forced a playstyle that was not fun as it equated fishing. Now I can actually stay in the action. Same tactics, same danger with one misstep and your dead, only now I can use my tactic anywhere on the battleground as long as I plan ahead. I still die trying to sneak up and getting spotted, or even die from accidental damage, or the occasional missed SG shot from point blank (doh).
To be clear, I am not sure how much stock I put into the "brick tanked" Scouts most QQ on. While I don't run much in the way of armor or shield extenders it doesn't seem possible to have a Scout at EHP 600, but I have never tried. I run KinCats and Cloaks, speed/stealth, and it's now fun again instead of constant frustration. Believe me you would quit too if you do everything right and get all the variables in your favor and still get killed simply because some guy with an AR turned around and pressed fire. Shotguns have such short range you need a way to get close to even make them viable. Smart players still identify a SG user and move back, which will usually turn the tide in their favor unless I have the speed to stay in their face, (can't sprint and shoot after all). All the cloak does is protect me from getting killed a mile away by 3 AR rounds and allow me to set the surprise variable where cover isn't an option. It still requires planning and careful maneuvering. The surprise variable is needed as even my proto Scout only has 225 or so EHP and can't survive closing a gap to make the SG effective should they see me more than 10 feet away. I have always stacked two proto kincats before and after cloaking.
Btw, cloaked Scouts are still pretty easy to see if they are in front of you. Cloaking just allows you to sneak a bit more effectively in the midst of confusion, or when working a flanking path without being spotted. I have killed many a cloaked Scout who thought they could just run at me. The single biggest benefit is allowing me to remain unseen as I actually take a flanking route, instead of seeing me a mile away and being able to kill me practically instantly. Try flanking one guy in the midst of a battle and see how far you get without a cloak and 3 hits kills you. Someone will see you and fire your way and your dead before you hear the shots. The speed I boost allows me to plan and act on a flanking route quickly. I suppose you could tank your Scout but then you can't boost speed, meaning you will not be able to flank as effectively thereby limiting your cloaks usefulness as people will still see you running at them head on. Seems pretty balanced. |
Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
1087
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 22:50:00 -
[426] - Quote
Cloaks need a Pg/CPU increase to make them harder to fit on to her suits. Scouts need a corresponding bonus to keep them at the current PG/CPU consumption at level 5.
Cloaks should not reduce scan profile. If you want to do that, fit dampeners.
Cloaks should decloak from fluxes. This gives other suits a chance to clear an area of scouts, and gives a hard counter to them.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
Fixed link.
|
jerrmy12 kahoalii
846
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 22:53:00 -
[427] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Cloaks need a Pg/CPU increase to make them harder to fit on to her suits. Scouts need a corresponding bonus to keep them at the current PG/CPU consumption at level 5.
Cloaks should not reduce scan profile. If you want to do that, fit dampeners.
Cloaks should decloak from fluxes. This gives other suits a chance to clear an area of scouts, and gives a hard counter to them.
Then fix cloaking in dark areas and make the shimmer less when crouch walking
Closed beta vet
Tears, sweet delicious tears
|
SILENTSAM 69
SONS of LEGION
RISE of LEGION
654
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 22:56:00 -
[428] - Quote
It is funny to see anyone is upset. The cloak is very balanced. It is very easy to spot a cloaked player if you just pay attention. I am almost worried some people have figured out a tint setting on their TV that makes that blue shimmer even more obvious than it already is.
Spotting cloaked players by scans does happen, and lights them up for your whole squad to see. Paying attention to your cursor going red, or seeing a strange shimmer on the side of the screen sets people apart. Some are observant and some are not.
The cloak has added well balanced fun, new tactics, and methods of finding your role on the battlefield. With all the people that see me quite easily at long range, I almost think it needs the blue shimmer toned down slightly, or maybe just only toned down when crouched. Making a reason for them to creep around while crouched to reduce shimmer would make the stealth even more fun. If it isn't already doing it and I just run around too much...
Fix any bugs of course, but I hope the cloak doesn't get changed. It is very well balanced and a great view of things to come. |
Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
1088
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 23:08:00 -
[429] - Quote
jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Cloaks need a Pg/CPU increase to make them harder to fit on to her suits. Scouts need a corresponding bonus to keep them at the current PG/CPU consumption at level 5.
Cloaks should not reduce scan profile. If you want to do that, fit dampeners.
Cloaks should decloak from fluxes. This gives other suits a chance to clear an area of scouts, and gives a hard counter to them. Then fix cloaking in dark areas and make the shimmer less when crouch walking
I am agreeable to this.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
Fixed link.
|
Paul Ellinas
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
51
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 23:10:00 -
[430] - Quote
SILENTSAM 69 wrote:It is funny to see anyone is upset. The cloak is very balanced. It is very easy to spot a cloaked player if you just pay attention. I am almost worried some people have figured out a tint setting on their TV that makes that blue shimmer even more obvious than it already is.
Spotting cloaked players by scans does happen, and lights them up for your whole squad to see. Paying attention to your cursor going red, or seeing a strange shimmer on the side of the screen sets people apart. Some are observant and some are not.
The cloak has added well balanced fun, new tactics, and methods of finding your role on the battlefield. With all the people that see me quite easily at long range, I almost think it needs the blue shimmer toned down slightly, or maybe just only toned down when crouched. Making a reason for them to creep around while crouched to reduce shimmer would make the stealth even more fun. If it isn't already doing it and I just run around too much...
Fix any bugs of course, but I hope the cloak doesn't get changed. It is very well balanced and a great view of things to come.
Scouts with 700armor and 120shields and a clock are OP. A scout(a light frame drop suite) should not have the possibility to tank HP like assaults. |
|
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
1089
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 23:42:00 -
[431] - Quote
Brick tanking is a problem with all suits. We only pay attention to the scouts because they also have cloaks. We need to fix brick tanking.
I'd say up the PG cost of plates (since they are supposed to be PG heavy, and currently cost the same PG as extenders.) Which will require making sacrifices in order to stack that much health, like crap weapons, etc.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
Fixed link.
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
970
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 00:19:00 -
[432] - Quote
anaboop wrote:Been testing out bpo dragonfly scout suit, fitting even the most basic junk on it and still being able to take out protos, and advanced.
Running basic cloak, militia shotty, militia cpu module. Cost 4k total. No skills into shotguns or scout suits.
It seems scouts have the best of both worlds stealthy and damage, though its the stealth which allows them to get in close to cause the damage. So doing something to one or the other wont work in my eyes.
The problem seems to be that other suits need to lose all the modules they usually use in place of profile amps and precisions just to see them or try to hide from them. They need to either be hard to find, or be able spot enemies easily, not both least not on the same suit. Make 2 suits good at hiding and 2 good at spotting.
I know people are going to say they are scouts and thats there role, but i think taking one advantage away like that may balance them out without taking something that will cripple them away.
Anywho, I dont have much problem with them since Im testing a radarfit which is able to spot any scout cloaked or not, my only downside is i cant hide from them at the same time, which in turn is why im unable to constantly ruin scouts plans, (which is good) I dont want 100% counter to them, though some wps for bring a dedicated radar would be nice, not sure how but yeah.
I tried to keep it short, just my thoughts.
What do scout users think of that?, no need to be nasty about either. Sacrificing either stealthiness, or your scanning precision depending on your scout suit. So that you dont have both, instead of a damage, slot or something else nerf?
I think it sounds reasonable
if your good at spotting then u should be good at hiding as well becuase the scout would have a cloak and be able to see enemy positions thus hiding
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
970
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 00:23:00 -
[433] - Quote
Paul Ellinas wrote:SILENTSAM 69 wrote:It is funny to see anyone is upset. The cloak is very balanced. It is very easy to spot a cloaked player if you just pay attention. I am almost worried some people have figured out a tint setting on their TV that makes that blue shimmer even more obvious than it already is.
Spotting cloaked players by scans does happen, and lights them up for your whole squad to see. Paying attention to your cursor going red, or seeing a strange shimmer on the side of the screen sets people apart. Some are observant and some are not.
The cloak has added well balanced fun, new tactics, and methods of finding your role on the battlefield. With all the people that see me quite easily at long range, I almost think it needs the blue shimmer toned down slightly, or maybe just only toned down when crouched. Making a reason for them to creep around while crouched to reduce shimmer would make the stealth even more fun. If it isn't already doing it and I just run around too much...
Fix any bugs of course, but I hope the cloak doesn't get changed. It is very well balanced and a great view of things to come. Scouts with 700armor and 120shields and a clock are OP. A scout(a light frame drop suite) should not have the possibility to tank HP like assaults.
if you have the skills into the 5% to pg/cpu reduction than they easily can, so even if they do, they can still stack HP effectivly
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
GTA V FTW
217
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 00:27:00 -
[434] - Quote
On the table, when are we getting kill streaks?
I called that this would happen.
LOL fail developer will always be a fail developer. |
jerrmy12 kahoalii
847
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 00:28:00 -
[435] - Quote
GTA V FTW wrote:On the table, when are we getting kill streaks?
I called that this would happen.
LOL fail developer will always be a fail developer.
gtfo gta fanboy.
Closed beta vet
Tears, sweet delicious tears
|
anaboop
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
12
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 00:37:00 -
[436] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:
if your good at spotting then u should be good at hiding as well becuase the scout would have a cloak and be able to see enemy positions thus hiding
Yeah I dont deny that, but they should have one or the other decreased based on what suit they use, as tonot be totally effective in both. |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2737
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 00:44:00 -
[437] - Quote
SILENTSAM 69 wrote:It is funny to see anyone is upset. The cloak is very balanced. It is very easy to spot a cloaked player if you just pay attention. I am almost worried some people have figured out a tint setting on their TV that makes that blue shimmer even more obvious than it already is.
Spotting cloaked players by scans does happen, and lights them up for your whole squad to see. Paying attention to your cursor going red, or seeing a strange shimmer on the side of the screen sets people apart. Some are observant and some are not.
The cloak has added well balanced fun, new tactics, and methods of finding your role on the battlefield. With all the people that see me quite easily at long range, I almost think it needs the blue shimmer toned down slightly, or maybe just only toned down when crouched. Making a reason for them to creep around while crouched to reduce shimmer would make the stealth even more fun. If it isn't already doing it and I just run around too much...
Fix any bugs of course, but I hope the cloak doesn't get changed. It is very well balanced and a great view of things to come.
Why is everyone suggesting to pay attention to the crosshair turning red as the counter for spotting cloaks. It sounds good in theory but practically, you can't afford to be concentrating on your crosshair all the time.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
970
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 01:12:00 -
[438] - Quote
why not just increase armor plates pg and make the decloak sound louder
only armor plates since the other plates have reasonable pg/cpu requirements.
trying to nerf multiple things just becuase of one thing that can be fixed will just cause more problems for us
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
970
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 03:42:00 -
[439] - Quote
so why not just force the animation to show up and we wont have this problem all the time and you will be forced to uncloak completely
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
|
Tek Hound
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
184
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 03:59:00 -
[440] - Quote
Very sad..cloak is alright if anything it needs a buff.
The problem with cloak is the lack of the community skill/ willingness to change from their pew pew tactics. Just one big l2p issue nothing more.
1.Lonewolf randomly running around /get picked off
2 .Teammate dies next to you and you still have tunnel vision /get picked off
3.No communication form team /get picked off
4.Dont want to use what was give to you to find them /get picked off
5.just want to pew pew with no concern about you surroundings/get picked off
6.Cant see the shimmer/get your eye checked |
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GTA V FTW
217
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 11:50:00 -
[441] - Quote
jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:GTA V FTW wrote:On the table, when are we getting kill streaks?
I called that this would happen.
LOL fail developer will always be a fail developer. gtfo gta fanboy. Oh and killstreaks are for noobs.
Funny, and cloaks are for....................highly skilled players who need to be invisible as to not show everyone their mad skillzzzzz.
Pfff please.
As stated above, epic fail from a LOL developer.
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14061
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 18:03:00 -
[442] - Quote
GTA V FTW wrote:jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:GTA V FTW wrote:On the table, when are we getting kill streaks?
I called that this would happen.
LOL fail developer will always be a fail developer. gtfo gta fanboy. Oh and killstreaks are for noobs. Funny, and cloaks are for....................highly skilled players who need to be invisible as to not show everyone their mad skillzzzzz. Pfff please. As stated above, epic fail from a LOL developer.
League of Legends?
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
2427
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 18:47:00 -
[443] - Quote
I was thinking about this some more and I think I have a decent solution without a lot of work required.
If you pull the trigger with the cloak out you use it and go cloaked (i assume, i havent used it persay) and start using your cloak energy.
If you pull the trigger while cloaked you uncloak and it recharges normally.
If you pull out your weapon while cloaked, you destabilize the field, forcing the unit to purge its internal capacitor (i.e. you lose all stored cloak energy) and the unit has to go through a 3-5 second restart cycle at which point it can start charging again.
So you still give scouts the ability to swap out of cloak but you make them pay a price for it.
Risk vs. Reward - a very 'New Eden' philosophy. |
Scout Registry
Nos Nothi
1887
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 18:57:00 -
[444] - Quote
^ This is a really good idea. +1
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
367
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 18:59:00 -
[445] - Quote
The camouflage is just good enough in certain settings and lighting to justify the fittings cost. It would be a lot more useful if you could be fully invisible when holding still. Maybe the better cloak could have higher fitting requirements than the current Predator Camouflage (which is pretty cool).
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
|
jerrmy12 kahoalii
854
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 19:03:00 -
[446] - Quote
GTA V FTW wrote:jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:GTA V FTW wrote:On the table, when are we getting kill streaks?
I called that this would happen.
LOL fail developer will always be a fail developer. gtfo gta fanboy. Oh and killstreaks are for noobs. Funny, and cloaks are for....................highly skilled players who need to be invisible as to not show everyone their mad skillzzzzz. Pfff please. As stated above, epic fail from a LOL developer.
Lol if you cant see the cloak you are a ****** (you cant see the cloak)
Just gtfo kid no one wants you here.
Closed beta vet
Tears, sweet delicious tears
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anaboop
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
13
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 20:08:00 -
[447] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:I was thinking about this some more and I think I have a decent solution without a lot of work required.
If you pull the trigger with the cloak out you use it and go cloaked (i assume, i havent used it persay) and start using your cloak energy.
If you pull the trigger while cloaked you uncloak and it recharges normally.
If you pull out your weapon while cloaked, you destabilize the field, forcing the unit to purge its internal capacitor (i.e. you lose all stored cloak energy) and the unit has to go through a 3-5 second restart cycle at which point it can start charging again.
So you still give scouts the ability to swap out of cloak but you make them pay a price for it.
Risk vs. Reward - a very 'New Eden' philosophy.
Only thing I can see with this is, hit uncloak, fast change to weapon and bang. It would still require the forced animation, otherwise it would force everyones cloak to destabilize.
I would rather see for example gall and cal have the same profile scan, with a lower precision(so they cant find people as good), then amar and mini having a higher precision but higher profile scan to see them easier. (Which suits get which bonus and hinder is upto ccp). But I believe that will help out with all the scouts and lower there brick tanking unless they either want to be found or be unable to spot others, or by putting on there damps amps or precisions on.
Edit, suits that use shield more should have precision hindered thus needing precisons enhancers, where armor should have there scan profile hindered thus needing damps, or vise versa. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
2430
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 20:13:00 -
[448] - Quote
anaboop wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:I was thinking about this some more and I think I have a decent solution without a lot of work required.
If you pull the trigger with the cloak out you use it and go cloaked (i assume, i havent used it persay) and start using your cloak energy.
If you pull the trigger while cloaked you uncloak and it recharges normally.
If you pull out your weapon while cloaked, you destabilize the field, forcing the unit to purge its internal capacitor (i.e. you lose all stored cloak energy) and the unit has to go through a 3-5 second restart cycle at which point it can start charging again.
So you still give scouts the ability to swap out of cloak but you make them pay a price for it.
Risk vs. Reward - a very 'New Eden' philosophy. Only thing I can see with this is, hit uncloak, fast change to weapon and bang. It would still require the forced animation, otherwise it would force everyones cloak to destabilize. .
I'm not exactly sure what you mean. The idea is that if you want to save your cloak you need to hit the module again to decloak. It would be a forced animation that doesn't let you swap to a weapon until the animation is complete. |
anaboop
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
13
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 20:17:00 -
[449] - Quote
With forced animation it makes sense, its just it wasnt mentioned in the post. |
Tek Hound
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
202
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 20:32:00 -
[450] - Quote
GTA V FTW wrote:jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:GTA V FTW wrote:On the table, when are we getting kill streaks?
I called that this would happen.
LOL fail developer will always be a fail developer. gtfo gta fanboy. Oh and killstreaks are for noobs. Funny, and cloaks are for....................highly skilled players who need to be invisible as to not show everyone their mad skillzzzzz. Pfff please. As stated above, epic fail from a LOL developer.
Epic fail for the skill level of the community. Needs something nerf because they can't adapt. |
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
2430
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 20:37:00 -
[451] - Quote
anaboop wrote:With forced animation it makes sense, its just it wasnt mentioned in the post.
Gotcha, I edited the post to better reflect that. |
Tek Hound
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
203
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 20:51:00 -
[452] - Quote
You QQers do realize your crying about being killed in shotgun range by a shotgun. Cloak is only used to get into shotgun range. |
anaboop
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 09:40:00 -
[453] - Quote
anaboop wrote:Been testing out bpo dragonfly scout suit, fitting even the most basic junk on it and still being able to take out protos, and advanced.
Running basic cloak, militia shotty, militia cpu module. Cost 4k total. No skills into shotguns or scout suits.
It seems scouts have the best of both worlds stealthy and damage, though its the stealth which allows them to get in close to cause the damage. So doing something to one or the other wont work in my eyes.
The problem seems to be that other suits need to lose all the modules they usually use in place of profile amps and precisions just to see them or try to hide from them. They need to either be hard to find, or be able spot enemies easily, not both least not on the same suit. Make 2 suits good at hiding and 2 good at spotting.
I know people are going to say they are scouts and thats there role, but i think taking one advantage away like that may balance them out without taking something that will cripple them away.
Anywho, I dont have much problem with them since Im testing a radarfit which is able to spot any scout cloaked or not, my only downside is i cant hide from them at the same time, which in turn is why im unable to constantly ruin scouts plans, (which is good) I dont want 100% counter to them, though some wps for bring a dedicated radar would be nice, not sure how but yeah.
I tried to keep it short, just my thoughts.
What do scout users think of that?, no need to be nasty about either. Sacrificing either stealthiness, or your scanning precision depending on your scout suit. So that you dont have both, instead of a damage, slot or something else nerf?
I think it sounds reasonable
I still believe the bold will help out alot, could just be me but wanted to blurt it again.
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Scout Registry
Nos Nothi
1954
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 11:38:00 -
[454] - Quote
This |
Piraten Hovnoret
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
456
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 11:42:00 -
[455] - Quote
In my mind there is 2 main issues with the cloak and scouts
1
every tier gives the same dampening as a complex damp. So cloaks should have 15% damp at basic 20% damp at advanced and 25% damp at proto. If doing this fitting a complex dampner and any cloak will not make you 100% unscanibull. You have to fit a proto cloak or one more damp to dodge everything
2
Stacking penalties for shield and armor. A scout that stacks armor plates and/or shield extenders should have a higher penalty than other suits.
Example/suggestion :
make them slower than a heavy if you putt 4 armor plates on it.
Make them lose dampening if they stack shield extenders
Regards
War never changes
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DEZKA DIABLO
THE FOOTCLAN
574
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 11:43:00 -
[456] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Personally I think they did a fair job of balancing the cloak. Most tears come from oversaturation of the role due to it being new equipment. Anything seems ridiculous in high volumes. This is a new toy and everyone wants to play with it. I want to be very very sure nothing is done in classic CCP fashion as a ridiculous nerf due to the tears of the loud sections of our playerbase.
I agree that there should be different variants for different jobs and playstyles. The weapon switch in my opinion is about perfect. It's not too short and not too long. I think most people have problems with the cloaks and shotguns. For any other weapon that requires you to actually aim a little bit the decloak time is perfect.
Also we must consider that currently even the minmatar has a lot of trouble in the fitting department. An increase in cloak cost will make this suit which already has extremely HP even weaker and harder to fit. My question is should all scouts have similar fitting issues to the minmatar or should minmatar be brought up to the rest of the class?
Definetly bring the minmatar up.
If you add the pg of 3 complex shields and two reds and a green, you would have empty slots trying to run knives if you could even fit them and forget using a cloak.
Minmatar are married to knives which almost cost as much as a proto smg yet their is no pg reduction skill, so every knife suit you make is minus the knife cost instantly and you build around that and your cloak, and what is left is horribly weak and not nearly as fast as the other suits because your third low slot becomes a pg mod.
Let's face it, the cloak is the minmatar s dampener, speed are married to the knives and so is stamina, so at least the regen is high, and the knives won't kill anything tanked unless their proto, and even then with proficiency 5, suit 5 I have had to charge2 times then shoot a heavy and that lack of damage just isn't right.
Minmatar is and always has been broken, lowering scouts to this level would break ALL of them.
No uplinks , cloaks and speed and a decent gun and 300 HP would destroy the pc opening scouts job.
The minmatar needs enough pg to make this type of fit because all other scouts can:
Mk.0
3cp shields
Adv cr
Pro nk
Flux
Compact hive
Comp kinx2
Comp damp or green or kin.
EDIT: adv cloak
Runs 10.36
My gko can run.
Comp percision
Comp shield
Crg sg
Toxin
M1
4 comp reds
Ad cloak
Remotes
Runs 11.11
Use proto fits and try this and compare
EDIT: add a cloak to the minmatar
Dead trigger master , an ya I do that ISH ON PURPOSE!
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2378
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 11:50:00 -
[457] - Quote
Exactly what a lot of us have been saying.
Don't nerf it AS SUCH, just fix what is unintentional.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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DEZKA DIABLO
THE FOOTCLAN
574
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 11:58:00 -
[458] - Quote
Tek Hound wrote:You QQers do realize your crying about being killed in shotgun range by a shotgun. Cloak is only used to get into shotgun range.
It's because for 9 months everyone's been pampered by scanners and high damage weapons and damage mods that only 5% of the player base skilled electronic mods and uses them ( SCOUTS) and everyone else is running blind HP stacked suits and cry nerf because it's easier than spending 4 mill sp trying to catch up an I don't even thing you can get AUR dampeners, percision mods or enhancers.
Ccp really has to stop catering nerfs to those that gimped their suits by only investing in damage!
If your core skills aren't up and you don't balance your suit with proper mods for stealth, and health than you have no case in complaining about those that do, and that's THE REAL ISSUE HERE.
Dead trigger master , an ya I do that ISH ON PURPOSE!
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IgniteableAura
Pro Hic Immortalis
819
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 16:58:00 -
[459] - Quote
If we remove the damp bonus it nerfs everything but the GAL scout. Then no scout has much of an option against prototype scanners and cal scout. There is no balance there, there are no counters. ITS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE UNSEEN. Thats also IMO should be the final counter; to be unseen. All other scouts would need to completely nerf their fit just so they aren't seen on the radar. Seeing other people on the radar is a huge benefit. HUGE. Its why there is so much damn complaining about the scanner changes and how scouts are "OP"
Remove the Cloak bonus and you get a whole host of other problems. It would actually be nice if they could modify the bonus to apply as the shimmer does (the more speed the more profile) but that is probably unlikely, but perhaps the best solution. You get a "scanned message" you cloak and stop moving until timer expires, something else CCP needs to add, a timer for "being scanned" or hud information to that effect.
Scouts:
To throw out some numbers, without the profile bonus all other scouts (w/o damp) besides GAL will be passively seen with a CAL scout without any precision mods. A Cal scout with 1 cPE will be able to see all scouts (w/o damp) To combat this, Gal scout will need to fit at least a basic damp and all other scouts will need to fit at least two damps. A CAL scout with 3 cPE is pretty much uncounterable except by using 4 damps or a 2 damp GAL scout.
Med Frames:
Can fit 2cPE and pick up nonGAL scouts without damps.
Scanners:
nonGAL would need to fit at least 2 damps to avoid GAL-logi proto scans and 4 damps to avoid focused GALlogi scans.
So TL:DR on removing damp bonus
-Creates another "permascanned" environment for nonGALscouts.
-Makes the GAL scout even more powerful (unseen > seeing) (has no "real" impact on GAL scouts)
-Ruins the counter/counter environment for healthy balance
-The problem with cloak is being able to fire before fully visible.
-Elephant in the room is the GAL scout (w/cloak and single damp its impossible to scan)
Im a cal scout, so go ahead and advocate for removal of the damp bonus, I will have a freaking hayday with all of the scouts not running >3 damps, as you simply won't have a counter to avoid the passive scans
PHI Recruitment
or PHIsh Tank in game
Youtube
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SILENTSAM 69
SONS of LEGION
RISE of LEGION
659
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 19:28:00 -
[460] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:SILENTSAM 69 wrote:It is funny to see anyone is upset. The cloak is very balanced. It is very easy to spot a cloaked player if you just pay attention. I am almost worried some people have figured out a tint setting on their TV that makes that blue shimmer even more obvious than it already is.
Spotting cloaked players by scans does happen, and lights them up for your whole squad to see. Paying attention to your cursor going red, or seeing a strange shimmer on the side of the screen sets people apart. Some are observant and some are not.
The cloak has added well balanced fun, new tactics, and methods of finding your role on the battlefield. With all the people that see me quite easily at long range, I almost think it needs the blue shimmer toned down slightly, or maybe just only toned down when crouched. Making a reason for them to creep around while crouched to reduce shimmer would make the stealth even more fun. If it isn't already doing it and I just run around too much...
Fix any bugs of course, but I hope the cloak doesn't get changed. It is very well balanced and a great view of things to come. Why is everyone suggesting to pay attention to the crosshair turning red as the counter for spotting cloaks. It sounds good in theory but practically, you can't afford to be concentrating on your crosshair all the time.
This is only when they stand still. If anything cloaked players are far too visible. The shimmer is about the most obvious shimmer that and cloak in an FPS game has ever had. |
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SILENTSAM 69
SONS of LEGION
RISE of LEGION
659
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 19:31:00 -
[461] - Quote
Anyone who thinks the cloak makes you invisible is just not paying attention. Far too many people see me pretty easily at range. If any change needs to happen to the cloak it is to reduce the shimmer, at least when crouched. We have the most visible cloaked players in any FPS that I have played. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4888
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 19:39:00 -
[462] - Quote
PROBLEMS WITH CLOAKING:
1. Exploits. The obvious one has been fixed, but I've still been seeing people who can stay cloaked indefinitely while they have their weapon drawn. Firing decloaks them, but not until AFTER they take their first shot, preventing their victim from having the audible warning they should be getting. Unless you fire, no amount of time passing will cause a glitched player to decloak. This is also a pretty big flaw in the cloak which needs addressing.
2. Volume of decloak sound. Even once the glitches are fixed, the decloak sound, while loud enough for the cloaked player, is quieter than it should be fore other players nearby, and increasing the volume is a buff I would support thoroughly.
3. Shimmer. This isn't a problem in and of itself, but when talking about the cloak, CCP said movement would cause a shimmer effect that varies in intensity based on how fast you're moving. That is clearly NOT the case. It's a binary light shimmer when still vs. high visibility shimmer when moving at ANY speed. Crouch walking should EITHER use the no movement shimmer OR a slight increase, then walking normally should make you more visible than crouch walking, and sprinting should have the level of shimmer any movement produces now. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14112
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 21:38:00 -
[463] - Quote
SILENTSAM 69 wrote:Anyone who thinks the cloak makes you invisible is just not paying attention. Far too many people see me pretty easily at range. If any change needs to happen to the cloak it is to reduce the shimmer, at least when crouched. We have the most visible cloaked players in any FPS that I have played.
second most. There is other fps where they have special anti cloak vision modes.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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medomai grey
WarRavens
League of Infamy
514
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 22:20:00 -
[464] - Quote
SILENTSAM 69 wrote:Anyone who thinks the cloak makes you invisible is just not paying attention. Far too many people see me pretty easily at range. If any change needs to happen to the cloak it is to reduce the shimmer, at least when crouched. We have the most visible cloaked players in any FPS that I have played. I don't see a problem with this. When I first read the cloak mechanics, I just thought of it as a game of Red Light Green Light. Enemy looking in your direction, RED LIGHT! No enemy looking in your direction, GREEN LIGHT!
I've been told that people prefer fake smiles over the honest expressions of their fellow men. : )
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KING CHECKMATE
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
4830
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 22:27:00 -
[465] - Quote
IWS of CCP:
''On the table
*Cloak fitting is on the table still.
*Cloak decloak speed.
*Cloak charge rate internally
*Cloak electronic stealth value''
Dont waste your time.
Fitting is OK.Scout bonus is ok.
Decloak speed could be immediate.As soon as one presses the change weapon button the cloak is removed before one can shoot.BUT I GUARANTEE YOU 100%, this wont stop the complaints at all. This is just some random excuse people are using to call the cloak OP, but the truth is, 90% of the times a scout attacks from behind,where making visual contact is impossible for the victim even without cloak,
Charge rate and duration are fine
Removal of 25% profile damp might go, but not important.
Dont waste your time nerfing the only thing you guys at CCP have released that actually works. Concentrate on the next equipment, the next vevhicles the next whatever and ignore the few inconsistent complains of a minority trying to justify their deaths.
thats all.
Like drones? = https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=153604&find=unread
|
Scout Registry
Nos Nothi
1988
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 23:54:00 -
[466] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:
Dont waste your time nerfing the only thing you guys at CCP have released that actually works. Concentrate on the next equipment, the next vevhicles the next whatever and ignore the few inconsistent complains of a minority trying to justify their deaths.
This part struck a cord with me.
Exmaple wrote a few months back that what he missed most was the time when dang-near everything was deadly. In Chromosome, there was a distinct lack of "best" options. From suits to weapons, a merc had a number of extremely effective things to choose among. This fact made for a diverse battlefield, and it made combat more interesting.
Uprising has had its ups and downs, but for the better past of a year it has not been diverse. For months on end, 9/10 mercs in any battle ran Rifles. And until just recently, 9/10 mercs in any battle ran Med Frames.
Look at the battlefield around you. There are Heavies, Scouts, Tanks, Dropships, Logi, Assaults. Look at the killfeed. It not longer reads Duvolle, Gek, Duvolle. Sure, some things could use some polish, but we are moving in the right direction.
Thank you, CCP, for reshaping the battlefield.
Exmaple would be proud.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14116
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 10:02:00 -
[467] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:IWS of CCP:
''On the table
*Cloak fitting is on the table still.
*Cloak decloak speed.
*Cloak charge rate internally
*Cloak electronic stealth value''
Dont waste your time.
Fitting is OK.Scout bonus is ok.
Decloak speed could be immediate.As soon as one presses the change weapon button the cloak is removed before one can shoot.BUT I GUARANTEE YOU 100%, this wont stop the complaints at all. This is just some random excuse people are using to call the cloak OP, but the truth is, 90% of the times a scout attacks from behind,where making visual contact is impossible for the victim even without cloak,
Charge rate and duration are fine
Removal of 25% profile damp might go, but not important.
Dont waste your time nerfing the only thing you guys at CCP have released that actually works. Concentrate on the next equipment, the next vevhicles the next whatever and ignore the few inconsistent complains of a minority trying to justify their deaths.
thats all.
Time wasn't wasted.
The fitting issue is separate topic at this moment and needs it own discussion.
Decloak speed wont alter much of the game play still as scouts will quickly learn on how to covertly decloak out of earshot and still put two fresh plasma slugs into the back.
Stealth Value is looking like a more acceptable nerf by the day. If scouts want to really go unseen they should look towards fitting damps. This is currently based on how people have nearly stopped using scanners; how even some super fitted scan scouts still can't see these guys cloaked.
Management of charge right now is nearly mindless. The time cloaked can be nearly equal to the time spent engaging making running out of cloak or waiting on the cloak a non issue with the weaker cloaks (which is probably discouraging the use of the prototype)
Rest of the things are going to require a patch if ever seriously considered.
Cloaks have to be fun for the people who are not cloaking, currently its not; not by a long shot.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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anaboop
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 10:40:00 -
[468] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:IWS of CCP:
''On the table
*Cloak fitting is on the table still.
*Cloak decloak speed.
*Cloak charge rate internally
*Cloak electronic stealth value''
Dont waste your time.
Fitting is OK.Scout bonus is ok.
Decloak speed could be immediate.As soon as one presses the change weapon button the cloak is removed before one can shoot.BUT I GUARANTEE YOU 100%, this wont stop the complaints at all. This is just some random excuse people are using to call the cloak OP, but the truth is, 90% of the times a scout attacks from behind,where making visual contact is impossible for the victim even without cloak,
Charge rate and duration are fine
Removal of 25% profile damp might go, but not important.
Dont waste your time nerfing the only thing you guys at CCP have released that actually works. Concentrate on the next equipment, the next vevhicles the next whatever and ignore the few inconsistent complains of a minority trying to justify their deaths.
thats all. Time wasn't wasted. The fitting issue is separate topic at this moment and needs it own discussion. Decloak speed wont alter much of the game play still as scouts will quickly learn on how to covertly decloak out of earshot and still put two fresh plasma slugs into the back. Stealth Value is looking like a more acceptable nerf by the day. If scouts want to really go unseen they should look towards fitting damps. This is currently based on how people have nearly stopped using scanners; how even some super fitted scan scouts still can't see these guys cloaked. Management of charge right now is nearly mindless. The time cloaked can be nearly equal to the time spent engaging making running out of cloak or waiting on the cloak a non issue with the weaker cloaks (which is probably discouraging the use of the prototype) Rest of the things are going to require a patch if ever seriously considered. Cloaks have to be fun for the people who are not cloaking, currently its not; not by a long shot.
its possible for a proto logi suit to deck themselves out with precisions and damps with a cloak to be able to see pretty much all scouts and still being able to hide from them as well, ive found this to be a perfect counter to scouts, giggling as they get mowed down thinking they can hide, ive yet to be shot in the back without it being my own fault of tunnel vision onto an enemy, my version of adapting, I also find it worth while getting adv cloak, whereas proto I dont since the increase issmaller then going from basic to adv, then adv to proto. |
Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
749
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 16:19:00 -
[469] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:IWS of CCP:
''On the table
*Cloak fitting is on the table still.
*Cloak decloak speed.
*Cloak charge rate internally
*Cloak electronic stealth value''
Dont waste your time.
Fitting is OK.Scout bonus is ok.
Decloak speed could be immediate.As soon as one presses the change weapon button the cloak is removed before one can shoot.BUT I GUARANTEE YOU 100%, this wont stop the complaints at all. This is just some random excuse people are using to call the cloak OP, but the truth is, 90% of the times a scout attacks from behind,where making visual contact is impossible for the victim even without cloak,
Charge rate and duration are fine
Removal of 25% profile damp might go, but not important.
Dont waste your time nerfing the only thing you guys at CCP have released that actually works. Concentrate on the next equipment, the next vevhicles the next whatever and ignore the few inconsistent complains of a minority trying to justify their deaths.
thats all. Time wasn't wasted. The fitting issue is separate topic at this moment and needs it own discussion. Decloak speed wont alter much of the game play still as scouts will quickly learn on how to covertly decloak out of earshot and still put two fresh plasma slugs into the back. Stealth Value is looking like a more acceptable nerf by the day. If scouts want to really go unseen they should look towards fitting damps. This is currently based on how people have nearly stopped using scanners; how even some super fitted scan scouts still can't see these guys cloaked. Management of charge right now is nearly mindless. The time cloaked can be nearly equal to the time spent engaging making running out of cloak or waiting on the cloak a non issue with the weaker cloaks (which is probably discouraging the use of the prototype) Rest of the things are going to require a patch if ever seriously considered. Cloaks have to be fun for the people who are not cloaking, currently its not; not by a long shot.
It was wasted. You focus on the wrong issues and personally I think it's time for a new CPM.
...
|
Scout Registry
Nos Nothi
2030
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 16:46:00 -
[470] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
1) The fitting issue is separate topic at this moment and needs it own discussion.
2) Decloak speed wont alter much of the game play still as scouts will quickly learn on how to covertly decloak out of earshot and still put two fresh plasma slugs into the back.
3) Stealth Value is looking like a more acceptable nerf by the day. If scouts want to really go unseen they should look towards fitting damps. This is currently based on how people have nearly stopped using scanners; how even some super fitted scan scouts still can't see these guys cloaked.
4) Management of charge right now is nearly mindless. The time cloaked can be nearly equal to the time spent engaging making running out of cloak or waiting on the cloak a non issue with the weaker cloaks (which is probably discouraging the use of the prototype)
5) Rest of the things are going to require a patch if ever seriously considered. Cloaks have to be fun for the people who are not cloaking, currently its not; not by a long shot.
1) The current fitting constraints of Minmatar having been recognized (thank you), I've found no other substantive arguments or concerns on this issue.
2) You better believe we'd adapt . But fixing this just might end some of the QQ. I've personally run head-on into quite a few shotgun blasts to the face, only to see the Scout come into vision as my HUD fades to red. Bottom-line, he'd have probably won anyway, but it is still irritating and the free-first-shot is arguably broken.
3) The Scout Community is split when it comes to Cloak's added profile reduction bonus and active scanners. Many are concerned that if the bonus were removed or reduced too far, we'd find ourselves stuck in a state of permascan. At present, the eWar equipped CalScout is a squad's best bet at picking up ghosts. The ability, however, comes as substantial sacrifice. Stacking Precision Amps and Range Extenders makes for a very squishy Scout who can offer little to his squad apart from his all-seeing-eye. The Logi, on the other hand, is an invaluable asset to his squad. Give that Logi an Active Scanner which trumps the ghost, and the ghost will forever remain trumped at little-to-no sacrifice on the part of the squad or its Logi.
4) Agreed. More Tactical, Less Always On would be a good thing.
5) Not sure if I agree with this. I agree that combat should be fun for everyone, and that everything should have a counter, but I'm not sure how cloak could be made fun for folks without cloak. Cloak is fun. Hunting the Cloaked is equally fun, but it comes at high cost (previously discussed in #3) as it should. Again, if the Scout's gimmick (cloak) were easily countered, it would always be countered. If fun-for-everyone is our target standard, I would ask if that same standard applies to pilots. Most would agree that tanks aren't fun for anyone; surely by now, all the but the dumbest of tankers have become bored with their win-button.
An Aside on Balance:
I'd be willing to bet that in aggregate, we Scouts are dying as often as we kill. Scout-on-Scout violence is at an all-time high. Heavies are terrifying. Squads are best left alone or attacked while distracted. Stun Lock is a serious pain-in-the-arse. If a Scout screws up, he pretty much always dies. Cloak isn't a win-button or free pass, and Scouts are not the new EZ Mode. We die quickly, and we die often. When has EZ Mode ever been subject to insta-gib?
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Vyuru
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
52
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Posted - 2014.04.05 17:19:00 -
[471] - Quote
Quote:
Cloaks have to be fun for the people who are not cloaking, currently its not; not by a long shot.
I am going to preface this with, this is what I have seen so far, playing vs other players and cloaks.
So far, a number of people have been reacting to cloaks in game in a rather poor fashion. If they are not having fun, then no offense to them, but that is really their problem isn't it?
Actual gameplay observations:
1) I am running to hack an enemy CRU. I know there are 2 people from the enemy side guarding it, I also know that I have another 2 blues following me ~200m out. I round the backside of the CRU and see a Logi and a Sentinel, my plan is to observe them a moment, and pick an opportune moment to kill the Logi and wait for backup to arrive for the Sentinel. For whatever reason, both guys do an abrupt 360 and run right at me. I am standing about 3m away from the CRU, cloaked, not moving. Both players, BOTH, run into me, smack dab right into me, halting their progress and forcing them to run to the side of me. And never once do they fire off a shot. They run to the other side of the CRU, I hack the CRU, Logi tries to counter hack, I kill the Logi, bring the Sentinel down to 1/2 armor before he gets me and my backup takes out the Sentinel.
2) I hack a point, get ambushed by an enemy and I see another one coming. I run around a corner tight, crouch and cloak up. One enemy comes round the corner and runs past me while the other one tries to counter hack. I see a third enemy coming. I kill the one who chased me, gun down the fellow trying to counter hack (took 3 shots since he was a fully tanked out Logi FYI) I come out cloaked to see the 3rd is another Logi who is in the middle of sticking a needle into the first fellow I killed. I toss a flux, kill the Logi, and kill the guy who just got revived.
3) I can't remember the details now... But I have had vehicles users get out to try and scan/chase me down, 2-3 times now, for whatever reason. I've then gone behind them, hacked their vehicle, and taken it for a joyride. I remember it was one very nicely specced out tank that I hacked.
And then just too many times to count now, I've gone and hacked an objective, and then just gone and ran circles around it about 150m out, catching stragglers coming to hack it, running in behind groups of people and taking them out one by one. People don't pay attention to the sounds or their radar. The group of blues you are running with are dropping off of the radar, there is a shotgun being fired within 20m of you, and you don't react at all? Just run in a beeline for the objective to hack it? And we're talking 4-5 people sometimes. 3 people is fairly common for me. Again, all it would take is a little situational awareness, or doing a quick 360 or SOMETHING!
I have only meet a handful of people who played smart vs cloaks since cloaks were introduced. You know how they did it? They either teamed up or had really good situational awareness and kept looking with their eyes, and not trusting their radar. They also knew that if 2 other guys just died in the room they were about to walk into, the person who killed them might just still be in the area.
To put simply. We should not be penalized for others less than stellar gameplay.
Quote:Management of charge right now is nearly mindless. The time cloaked can be nearly equal to the time spent engaging making running out of cloak or waiting on the cloak a non issue with the weaker cloaks (which is probably discouraging the use of the prototype)
I would disagree. You still have to manage your cloak and be mindful of what is going on and where you are going.
And because this can't be stated enough:
Quote:This part struck a cord with me.
Exmaple wrote a few months back that what he missed most was the time when dang-near everything was deadly. In Chromosome, there was a distinct lack of "best" options. From suits to weapons, a merc had a number of extremely effective things to choose among. This fact made for a diverse battlefield, and it made combat more interesting.
Uprising has had its ups and downs, but for the better past of a year it has not been diverse. For months on end, 9/10 mercs in any battle ran Rifles. And until just recently, 9/10 mercs in any battle ran Med Frames.
Look at the battlefield around you. There are Heavies, Scouts, Tanks, Dropships, Logis, Assaults. Look at the killfeed. It no longer reads Duvolle, Gek, Duvolle, Exile.
Indeed, certain items could use some polish, but the changing landscape is clear indication that we are moving in the right direction.
Thank you, CCP, for reshaping the battlefield.
Granted, things are still new and the waves probably haven't settled. But I am seeing just about every single suit under the sun out on the battlefield, and vehicle and weapon. Right now Dust is pretty good IMO. |
Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
53
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Posted - 2014.04.05 17:20:00 -
[472] - Quote
The more 1.8 I play, as a scout or otherwise, the less cloak QQ I hear and the less of a problem it seems. People are adapting. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14122
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 18:28:00 -
[473] - Quote
Well the stealthing issue itself is pretty bad overall because other classes is incapable of countering and it does require swapping classes in order to counter. This could be solved in maintaining diversity by having players squadding up but this leads to the unhealthy behavior of command mandating a squad member MUST run a cal scan scout and chances are they're not going to recruit a new scrub to do this. Instead they're going to force one player of the squad to change careers.
As for the whole domino effect the way I see things is more of a ripple in a small pond, eventually the ripples will hit the outside and make their way back in. The way back in is what concerns me the most because this is what the player adaption turns into; the FOTM syndrome. Right now the ripples are still expanding with very few parts of the ripple hitting back; but based on previous player behavior there will be a shift; it hasn't happened yet, and when it does the number of complaints will manifest that may result in a unhealthy nerf overall as players are going to call for an unreasonable altercation.
I mean all this talk about 'weapons x should do less damage with cloak equipped' and the similar scares me and I rather not have it go that way at all if possible.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
53
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Posted - 2014.04.05 21:03:00 -
[474] - Quote
The counter was and still is the focused active scanner. In 1.7 scouts always dampened below any scanners on the field. Cloaks affect the frequency of flanking attacks not the nature of them. Now it is arguably harder to avoid scans as passive scanning has become viable for some players and you do not get feedback about when you are detected in this way.
Perhaps scanners were nerfed too hard. Personally I find sticking together with team mates and being aware that cloaked scouts may attack enough of a counter, and it seems many players agree. However if you really think people need a way to combat scouts perhaps the active scanner needs looking at.
How about an advanced focused active scanner. Buff scan angle in general for all scanners. Currently it's too hard to find people with the snapshot scan. Anyway, back to finding scouts. Make an advanced focused scanner, keep the 20db precision but maybe a short range, long cooldown, short scan time, maybe a 90 degree arc and high fitting costs.
The idea is that although most people won't bother, people can't QQ about scouts because the answer is this:
"Just get a focused scanner".
The scanner itself will be too rubbish to massively affect scouts, who can avoid it anyway if they really want to. Though probably better to just hide for a bit. But low sp characters can at least feel like they are fighting back against the "cloaked menace".
Practically, having the equipment and having to keep looking behind them to use it will do a lot to help the player learn the awareness necessary to combat cloaked flankers.
Maybe I'm just going nuts here. Cloaks are fine. Wait a month or two to see how it goes. |
medomai grey
WarRavens
League of Infamy
526
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 21:12:00 -
[475] - Quote
Cloaks are fun with the exception of a certain bug that make them un-fun. Hunting for cloaked enemies adds a new challenge to the game and feels incredibly gratifying when you down a cloaked enemy.
Now some people are of the opinion that the bug that allows you to fire a couple of shots before you begin to decloak isn't a big deal. And they are partially right. If the bug is fixed and a cloaked player sneaks up on a unsuspecting target, the outcome remains unchanged.
But please consider another scenario: The cloaked player has failed at stealth and the enemy is searching for them. To hide from the enemy, the cloaked player stops moving to make themselves as least visible as possible. But it only partially works, the enemy knows that the cloaked player is somewhere in front of them, but not the exact location. The enemy begins scanning the area with their reticule and checking for visual distortions; it's only a matter of time before the cloaked player is located. But wait, what's this?! The enemy is dead, the cloaked player fired a couple of rounds into the enemy before beginning to decloak thanks to a bugged mechanic.
In this scenario, the enemy should have had a sporting chance to fight the cloaked player. But because of the bugged mechanic, the enemy is downed from a virtually invisible source of gunfire in front of them. The bugged mechanic is rewarding the cloaked player who failed at stealth. This bug is not a small issue.
Edit: Corrected the part about cloaked player being invisible to practically invisible.
I've been told that people prefer fake smiles over the honest expressions of their fellow men. : )
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2388
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Posted - 2014.04.05 21:25:00 -
[476] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well the stealthing issue itself is pretty bad overall because other classes is incapable of countering and it does require swapping classes in order to counter. This could be solved in maintaining diversity by having players squadding up but this leads to the unhealthy behavior of command mandating a squad member MUST run a cal scan scout and chances are they're not going to recruit a new scrub to do this. Instead they're going to force one player of the squad to change careers.
As for the whole domino effect the way I see things is more of a ripple in a small pond, eventually the ripples will hit the outside and make their way back in. The way back in is what concerns me the most because this is what the player adaption turns into; the FOTM syndrome. Right now the ripples are still expanding with very few parts of the ripple hitting back; but based on previous player behavior there will be a shift; it hasn't happened yet, and when it does the number of complaints will manifest that may result in a unhealthy nerf overall as players are going to call for an unreasonable altercation.
In observatorium, the number of complaints about people getting shot while cloaked are near nil and it is impossible to believe all cloakers are reasonable sort of folk able to accept getting shot while cloaked was their fault. Thus frequency of the incident is not high enough to trigger the complaints.
Now basing everything on complaints isn't the best way of going about doing things but it does paint pictures if you base the frequency of said complaints. It generally means the player is feeling like they're being punished most fo the time and its well above and beyond their control; of course there is always the scrubs. Frequency of complaints means also goes inversely meaning that eventually you will have reasonable people complaining about the issue as well.
But like I said the ripple hasn't fully reverberated yet. Not everyone went with cal scout; not everyone has max scanner skills; but chances are if cal scout does oddly get popular; you will see the complaints about getting shot while cloak picking up hopefully. To which I still think the lack of suit teiricide is compounding the issue massively on the simple grounds that the basic tech level suits simply don't have the slots to deal with the issue.
I mean all this talk about 'weapons x should do less damage with cloak equipped' and the similar scares me and I rather not have it go that way at all if possible.
Im already seeing some ripples, phantasm cloak field is the most common item, caldari scout second in AUR store.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14129
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Posted - 2014.04.05 21:36:00 -
[477] - Quote
The scanner system needs a massive overhaul imo ><
Sensors should not be a game of absolutes where if you don't have x fitting number you get detected.
Should be more like because you have this number would determine the possibility of getting detected at this range.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Scout Registry
Nos Nothi
2062
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Posted - 2014.04.05 21:55:00 -
[478] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:The scanner system needs a massive overhaul imo ><
Sensors should not be a game of absolutes where if you don't have x fitting number you get detected.
Should be more like because you have this number would determine the possibility of getting detected at this range.
Sensors play a part, but whether or not an act goes undetected is already a complicated calculus.
Sight, Sound, Squadsight, Coms, Friendly Action, Hostile Action, Distraction, Orientation, Fields of Vision ... there's generally more at play than what one may gather from focusing solely on his minimap. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14129
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 22:02:00 -
[479] - Quote
Scout Registry wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:The scanner system needs a massive overhaul imo ><
Sensors should not be a game of absolutes where if you don't have x fitting number you get detected.
Should be more like because you have this number would determine the possibility of getting detected at this range. Sensors play a part, but whether or not an act goes undetected is already a complicated calculus. Sight, Sound, Squadsight, Coms, Friendly Action, Hostile Action, Distraction, Orientation, Elevation, Fields of Vision ... there's generally alot more at play than what one may gather should he focus solely on his minimap. :: Shotguns Shimmer (+50) ::
Yes but lets say I sensor out my heavy for point defense, because currently the sensor field is a game of absolutes I can still never see some targets on my minimap because the rule doesn't allow for it.
But if the sensors where to turn into a game of time and range; things get interesting.
Either way comms are not as useful as one would think against the best of scouts, I seen some of the known squads still torn apart by a cloaked scout. If anything it made it easier to pick them apart because of the way they started to freak out.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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jerrmy12 kahoalii
885
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Posted - 2014.04.05 22:06:00 -
[480] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Scout Registry wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:The scanner system needs a massive overhaul imo ><
Sensors should not be a game of absolutes where if you don't have x fitting number you get detected.
Should be more like because you have this number would determine the possibility of getting detected at this range. Sensors play a part, but whether or not an act goes undetected is already a complicated calculus. Sight, Sound, Squadsight, Coms, Friendly Action, Hostile Action, Distraction, Orientation, Elevation, Fields of Vision ... there's generally alot more at play than what one may gather should he focus solely on his minimap. :: Shotguns Shimmer (+50) :: Yes but lets say I sensor out my heavy for point defense, because currently the sensor field is a game of absolutes I can still never see some targets on my minimap because the rule doesn't allow for it. But if the sensors where to turn into a game of time and range; things get interesting.
Not a good idea
I want to be completely invisible for my sealth fit.
Closed beta vet
Tears, sweet delicious tears
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14129
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Posted - 2014.04.05 22:08:00 -
[481] - Quote
jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Scout Registry wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:The scanner system needs a massive overhaul imo ><
Sensors should not be a game of absolutes where if you don't have x fitting number you get detected.
Should be more like because you have this number would determine the possibility of getting detected at this range. Sensors play a part, but whether or not an act goes undetected is already a complicated calculus. Sight, Sound, Squadsight, Coms, Friendly Action, Hostile Action, Distraction, Orientation, Elevation, Fields of Vision ... there's generally alot more at play than what one may gather should he focus solely on his minimap. :: Shotguns Shimmer (+50) :: Yes but lets say I sensor out my heavy for point defense, because currently the sensor field is a game of absolutes I can still never see some targets on my minimap because the rule doesn't allow for it. But if the sensors where to turn into a game of time and range; things get interesting. Not a good idea I want to be completely invisible for my sealth fit.
http://urbanpeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/animal-camouflage-11.jpg and eventually if you look hard enough... same thing happens with most sensors too, the longer they look at it the more suspicious it becomes. Its how nearly all current stealth vehicles get detected despite efforts to protect their position.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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PEW JACKSON
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
255
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Posted - 2014.04.05 22:15:00 -
[482] - Quote
Excuse me for getting pissy reading the last couple of pages.
My proposed changes to the cloak.
Want to nerf the dampening bonus?
Basic cloak 5% dampening bonus
Advanced cloak 15% dampening bonus
Prototype cloak 25% dampening bonus.
Fitting? Awww Hell Naw!!!
I use the proto cloak on every one of my fits. Have you tried running two complex kin cats, adv cardiac reg, complex armor rep.
complex precision enhancer, and a complex shield extender? All that along with a bolt pistol and an adv shotty with a k2 hive.
Most of my fits are nearly tapped on CPU & PG. The fitting bonus for the cloak is fine. Mind you I have a GK.0 the supposed OP scout.
Down times and up times?
Basic cloak
Up time 30 seconds
Cool down 15 seconds.
Advanced cloak
Up time 60 seconds
cool down 30 seconds.
Prototype cloak
Up time 90 seconds
cool down 45 seconds.
I do agree with changing the de cloak mechanic. If CCP can make it to where the player is visible on their, as well as an enemy screen at the same time of de cloaking, then we'd have a perfect piece of equipment.
It's nearly perfect rite now to be quite honest.
I can't see any other warranted changes to the cloak aside from pure QQ
Dead on the ground.... Think I made a wrong turn :/
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14129
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 22:26:00 -
[483] - Quote
Hmm I wouldn't say nerf the cloaks via tiered reduction in sensor damps but maybe provide a line of cloaks that offers the bonus (but gains no charge capacity) in the manner proposed and remove the damp bonus from all other cloaks.
I am also seriously honestly believing that making the whole 'cloak match to action' is not going to change people getting shot by people they are not even going to see in the first place typically from the back. Fixing this is more of a consistency issue but will not resolve complaints.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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medomai grey
WarRavens
League of Infamy
528
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 00:29:00 -
[484] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am also seriously honestly believing that making the whole 'cloak match to action' is not going to change people getting shot by people they are not even going to see in the first place typically from the back. Fixing this is more of a consistency issue but will not resolve complaints. I have already provided you an example of when the bug plays a major role in rewarding a mistake and punishing skilled behavior. Although admittedly that kind of scenario doesn't play out often because majority of the player base have poor awareness of their surroundings.
Your right that correcting the bug would not resolve complaints. But have you seen some of the things this community complains about? There are people in the community demanding that mlt tanks be nerfed because their std tank was destroyed by a mlt tank. I digress. The point is you cant make everyone happy and not all complaints are valid. This one is though.  (Yes I know how silly that just sounded, hence the face.)
If I could not convince you that the bug that allows cloaked players to fire several rounds before starting to decloak is a high priority issue for the sake of balance, then could you explain why the bug is a low priority problem? But don't use the same old argument that "'cloak match to action' is not going to change people getting shot by people they are not even going to see in the first place typically from the back". Instead explain how the bug has little effect in the scenario provided in the above link "example". Basically counter my counter argument to your original argument.
PS: Thanks for all your hard work as a CPM from doing spread sheets, constantly interacting with the toxic Dust 514 community, etc...
I've been told that people prefer fake smiles over the honest expressions of their fellow men. : )
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knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
981
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 01:06:00 -
[485] - Quote
why not just:
1 change the timers to 30/45/60
2 force the animation when decloaking and you cant shoot until you are fully done with the animation
3 and reduce the bonus to 15%
easy fix and the cloak wont be "nerfed" into the ground and prototype cloaks will actually be worth it
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
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Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1552
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 01:11:00 -
[486] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:Cloaks are fun with the exception of a certain bug that make them un-fun. Hunting for cloaked enemies adds a new challenge to the game and feels incredibly gratifying when you down a cloaked enemy.
Now some people are of the opinion that the bug that allows you to fire a couple of shots before you begin to decloak isn't a big deal. And they are partially right. If the bug is fixed and a cloaked player sneaks up on a unsuspecting target, the outcome remains unchanged.
But please consider another scenario: The cloaked player has failed at stealth and the enemy is searching for them. To hide from the enemy, the cloaked player stops moving to make themselves as least visible as possible. But it only partially works, the enemy knows that the cloaked player is somewhere in front of them, but not the exact location. The enemy begins scanning the area with their reticule and checking for visual distortions; it's only a matter of time before the cloaked player is located. But wait, what's this?! The enemy is dead, the cloaked player fired a couple of rounds into the enemy before beginning to decloak thanks to a bugged mechanic.
In this scenario, the enemy should have had a sporting chance to fight the cloaked player. But because of the bugged mechanic, the enemy is downed from a virtually invisible source of gunfire in front of them. The bugged mechanic is rewarding the cloaked player who failed at stealth. This bug is not a small issue.
Edit: Corrected the part about cloaked player being invisible to practically invisible.
thats my main point .
if dust 514 is not fun for the majority
then the majority will no longer play dust 514
dust 514 doom threads are lol
but whats not lol is ps4 competition in upcoming months
checks to see if Playstation 4 is in stock
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
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Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1552
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 01:20:00 -
[487] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Hmm I wouldn't say nerf the cloaks via tiered reduction in sensor damps but maybe provide a line of cloaks that offers the bonus (but gains no charge capacity) in the manner proposed and remove the damp bonus from all other cloaks.
I am also seriously honestly believing that making the whole 'cloak match to action' is not going to change people getting shot by people they are not even going to see in the first place typically from the back. Fixing this is more of a consistency issue but will not resolve complaints.
if its fixed: moving in a complex count to five and Crazy Ivan manuever check your six and nothing , continue moving in a complex and Crazy Ivan manuever check your six and nothing, continue moving in a complex and Crazy Ivan manuever check your six and AHA!!!!!!! got you!!!! +50 dead shotgun scout
versus
if its NOT fixed:
middle finger to dust 514
checks to see if Playstation 4 is in stock
gets Playstation 4 beta Destiny,Playstation 4 beta Doom
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14134
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 02:27:00 -
[488] - Quote
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Hmm I wouldn't say nerf the cloaks via tiered reduction in sensor damps but maybe provide a line of cloaks that offers the bonus (but gains no charge capacity) in the manner proposed and remove the damp bonus from all other cloaks.
I am also seriously honestly believing that making the whole 'cloak match to action' is not going to change people getting shot by people they are not even going to see in the first place typically from the back. Fixing this is more of a consistency issue but will not resolve complaints. if its fixed: moving in a complex count to five and Crazy Ivan manuever check your six and nothing , continue moving in a complex and Crazy Ivan manuever check your six and nothing, continue moving in a complex and Crazy Ivan manuever check your six and AHA!!!!!!! got you!!!! +50 dead shotgun scout versus if its NOT fixed: middle finger to dust 514 checks to see if Playstation 4 is in stock gets Playstation 4 beta Destiny,Playstation 4 beta Doom
Most people I stalk only turn in one direction to check. Just have to see which direction they check from afar before moving in.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
982
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 02:57:00 -
[489] - Quote
im pretty sure i have the best solution to this "problem" you people speak of and you all just read past it like its nothing
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
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Nulldust
Codex Troopers
11
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 06:12:00 -
[490] - Quote
anaboop wrote:Been testing out bpo dragonfly scout suit, fitting even the most basic junk on it and still being able to take out protos, and advanced.
Running basic cloak, militia shotty, militia cpu module. Cost 4k total. No skills into shotguns or scout suits.
It seems scouts have the best of both worlds stealthy and damage, though its the stealth which allows them to get in close to cause the damage. So doing something to one or the other wont work in my eyes.
The problem seems to be that other suits need to lose all the modules they usually use in place of profile amps and precisions just to see them or try to hide from them. They need to either be hard to find, or be able spot enemies easily, not both least not on the same suit. Make 2 suits good at hiding and 2 good at spotting.
I know people are going to say they are scouts and thats there role, but i think taking one advantage away like that may balance them out without taking something that will cripple them away.
Anywho, I dont have much problem with them since Im testing a radarfit which is able to spot any scout cloaked or not, my only downside is i cant hide from them at the same time, which in turn is why im unable to constantly ruin scouts plans, (which is good) I dont want 100% counter to them, though some wps for bring a dedicated radar would be nice, not sure how but yeah.
I tried to keep it short, just my thoughts.
What do scout users think of that?, no need to be nasty about either. Sacrificing either stealthiness, or your scanning precision depending on your scout suit. So that you dont have both, instead of a damage, slot or something else nerf?
I think it sounds reasonable
It's hard to answer that.
The problem comes from the cloak equipment and the solution should to be on the equipment itself. I'd say take away the 0.25 cloaked scan profile reduction for a start. Doesn't warrant it to start with. Next I'd say take away the -15% CPU/PG scout bonus. Again unnecessary.
The problem is the cloaked shotty. I'd say as others had mentioned add a two seconds decloaking time. Next add another 0.42 to the scan profile. Why 0.42? That's the highest penalty that would make an unspecced cloaked scout undetectable by unspecced assault. Fully specced scouts especially GA with multiple profile damp mods are still going to be undetectable TACNETwise but at least that's an improvement from what we have now. |
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Nulldust
Codex Troopers
11
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Posted - 2014.04.06 06:34:00 -
[491] - Quote
...cont.
This is one scout user speaking to another.
Cloaked shotty's primary prey should be heavy. Against medium it's an ewar. At its worst you have 10m to 15m before a medium see you on TACNET. Against another scout, well dont try it. We'll see you at least 20m away unless you're full specced with multiple damp mods on. |
Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
686
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 08:44:00 -
[492] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:stuff.
When is CPM1 elections again?
1) Minmatar fittings are fine, actually they have too much CPU. FIX SHIELD EXTENDER FITTINGS. Shield extenders belong on the suits with the most CPU and least PG, why do they take about the same PG as plates? Oh and switch kin-cats and damage mods (make kincats high slots and damage mods low slots).
2)Cloaks make you harder to see visually, dampners make you harder to see on scanners. Why do cloaks get a free dampner? Why do cloaks have no penalty? Plates effect HP, extenders effect recharge time, kincats/EWAR means sacrificing HP, Dampners sacrifice nothing.
3) Brick tanking has everything to do with the tanking modules themselves, not the individual suits. (1 militia mod can add ~40+% HP to a scout, ~25% to an assault or ~10% to a sentinel.) This means that because of similar slot numbers, suits end up with similar eHP. So either nerf the slot number (don't do this) or modify tanking modules so that base eHP values actually do matter.
This stuff is easy.
Fixing swarms
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14136
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 09:31:00 -
[493] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:stuff. When is CPM1 elections again? 1) Minmatar fittings are fine, actually they have too much CPU. FIX SHIELD EXTENDER FITTINGS. Shield extenders belong on the suits with the most CPU and least PG, why do they take about the same PG as plates? Oh and switch kin-cats and damage mods (make kincats high slots and damage mods low slots). 2)Cloaks make you harder to see visually, dampners make you harder to see on scanners. Why do cloaks get a free dampner? Why do cloaks have no penalty? Plates effect HP, extenders effect recharge time, kincats/EWAR means sacrificing HP, Dampners sacrifice nothing. 3) Brick tanking has everything to do with the tanking modules themselves, not the individual suits. (1 militia mod can add ~40+% HP to a scout, ~25% to an assault or ~10% to a sentinel.) This means that because of similar slot numbers, suits end up with similar eHP. So either nerf the slot number (don't do this) or modify tanking modules so that base eHP values actually do matter.
Why are you running? <^-^> (BTW read the last 25 pages)
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4954
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 09:54:00 -
[494] - Quote
I think this is relevant. |
The-Beard
Dorsai Chaotix
143
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 10:00:00 -
[495] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Note: Edited the OP; the original can be found quoted below in other posts
So TL;DR
Off the table.
*Minmatar fitting underpar should be forwarded, let ccp figure the numbers out for that.
*Brick Tanking is off the table. Better suited for 1.9 discussion due to size and complexity of subject
*Cloak Charge bar being externally altered by other players.
*Potential Shimmer
*Cloak Stealth Mechanics
On the table
1) *Cloak fitting is on the table still.
2) *Cloak decloak speed.
3) *Cloak charge rate internally
4) *Cloak electronic stealth value
Updated Op with change in discussion.
1) Maybe remove the seconds equipment slot with its added CPU and PG bonus. This would make a scout have the option of either being a cloaker or not, while denying a scout to act as 2 equipment speed logi/slayer. (I have a gal scout set as baby logi with an injector and rep tool, and another with proto and adv repper hives.. both with a brick tank)
2) Remove ability to switch weapons while cloaked. The time it takes to manually decloak with animation then switch weapons is enough to stop the decloak and fire while still cloaked problem.
3) With the cloak times being so long as is, I would say double the charge time per cloak time. 30 sec cloak = 60 sec recharge. Personally I think it should be 10 sec, 15 sec, and 20 sec cloaks with a recharge of equal to that of time cloaked. As is I rarely go more than 15 sec while cloaked, it's enough to cross the field and hit their flanks or run past and set uplinks behind them.
4) Well, it's a field that covers your body and conceals you optically... wouldn't that increase your scan profile not decrease it? IMO the electronics in your suit are what give a scan profile, so, wouldn't casting a large exposed electronic field over your body give a higher scan profile? Plus, it would cause the cloak user to chose: more tank, but easier to scan.. or use dampeners and be harder to scan.
Just my thoughts, troll away. |
The-Beard
Dorsai Chaotix
143
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 10:06:00 -
[496] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:
3) Brick tanking has everything to do with the tanking modules themselves, not the individual suits. (1 militia mod can add ~40+% HP to a scout, ~25% to an assault or ~10% to a sentinel.) This means that because of similar slot numbers, suits end up with similar eHP. So either nerf the slot number (don't do this) or modify tanking modules so that base eHP values actually do matter.
By this do you mean; light mods, medium mods, and heavy mods? Reminds me of eve mods, but in a good way. We should have something like this. The fitting Asset window would be a bit of b*tch though. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14136
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 10:23:00 -
[497] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:I think this is relevant.
Yes it is; cross posting to threads about the subject should be allowed.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14136
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 10:26:00 -
[498] - Quote
The-Beard wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:
3) Brick tanking has everything to do with the tanking modules themselves, not the individual suits. (1 militia mod can add ~40+% HP to a scout, ~25% to an assault or ~10% to a sentinel.) This means that because of similar slot numbers, suits end up with similar eHP. So either nerf the slot number (don't do this) or modify tanking modules so that base eHP values actually do matter.
By this do you mean; light mods, medium mods, and heavy mods? Reminds me of eve mods, but in a good way. We should have something like this. The fitting Asset window would be a bit of b*tch though.
Problem with that system is it requires an order of fitting in the 1's 10's and 100's to make sense in the same way eve orders it because you don't want everyone in heavy suits and you don't want light suits full fitting the heaviest (and prototype level) reppers.
For example
Light repper 5 pg 1 cpu
Medium repper 50 pg 10 cpu
Heavy repper 500 pg 10 cpu.
Scout under this model would likely only have 40 pg.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
The-Beard
Dorsai Chaotix
144
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 10:39:00 -
[499] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:The-Beard wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:
3) Brick tanking has everything to do with the tanking modules themselves, not the individual suits. (1 militia mod can add ~40+% HP to a scout, ~25% to an assault or ~10% to a sentinel.) This means that because of similar slot numbers, suits end up with similar eHP. So either nerf the slot number (don't do this) or modify tanking modules so that base eHP values actually do matter.
By this do you mean; light mods, medium mods, and heavy mods? Reminds me of eve mods, but in a good way. We should have something like this. The fitting Asset window would be a bit of b*tch though. Problem with that system is it requires an order of fitting in the 1's 10's and 100's to make sense in the same way eve orders it because you don't want everyone in heavy suits and you don't want light suits full fitting the heaviest (and prototype level) reppers. For example Light repper 5 pg 1 cpu Medium repper 50 pg 10 cpu Heavy repper 500 pg 10 cpu. Scout under this model would likely only have 40 pg.
Good point to show people what it would look like that haven't played eve. |
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
8110
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 11:10:00 -
[500] - Quote
There is an interesting effect I would like to bring to the table (though it could have already been brought up, considering it's a 25 page long thread).
The brighter the map is, the harder it is to detect the shimmer of a cloak.
On bright map, I can practically dance around enemies and rarely be detected.
On dark maps I have to move with caution.
My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone.
If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
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Pseudogenesis
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
98
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 11:19:00 -
[501] - Quote
Why should fluxes cause decloak? They're already pretty much the most powerful and versatile grenades out there. Excellent for destroying equipment, huge radius, demolish shields, and can even help with taking down tanks. You're saying they should also decloak scouts who happen to touch the edge of the explosion? Most legitimate scouts barely have armor as it is. |
Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
54
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Posted - 2014.04.06 12:04:00 -
[502] - Quote
TL/DR: If you have to change something change decloak speed, not fitting, charge, and definitely not profile reduction.
Having read the OP edit this is my feedback. Although I am still of the opinion that cloaks are ok, people are adapting and it is much too early to think about nerfs. Anyway:
On the table
*Cloak electronic stealth value
I am strongly against changing this. Firstly it would greatly favor Caldari and Gallente scouts, arguably already more powerful than the others, especially Gallente. More importantly I feel many people do not fully understand the situation with scanning and profiles in 1.8. Speaking about non-PC matches (I haven't heard anybody having a problem with cloaks in PC but I may be wrong) the reality of the scanning changes from a scouts perspective is this:
In 1.7 my profile level was low enough to avoid all non-proto active scanners. Nobody used passive scanning at low precision so this wasn't an issue. This meant I could happily run around without being scanned the majority of the time. If the enemy started using proto scanners, I got the "you have been scanned message" and switched to a suit with 1 basic dampener rendering me invisible to proto scanners again. I was not concerned about focused scanners as they were very rare and I always felt I could just wait out the scan duration and attack during cooldowns.
Now in 1.8 the situation is more complex. I still mostly run around without dampeners. I can now avoid proto scanners by simply activating my cloak. Gallente logis with proto scanners or anybody with a focused scanner will force me into my "stealth suit" just like 1.7. Often though I will be passively scanned either by Caldari scouts or others with lots of precision mods. This will result in a number deaths without me even realising I had been scanned. If I cotton on, maybe I see a Cal scout and die unexpectedly, I will be forced into my "stealth suit". The difference is that now in 1.8 my stealth suit, instead of being safe with 1 basic dampener, now is fitted with 1 complex and 1 enhanced dampener. This is because there is no way to be sure just how good the enemy's scans are. It is entirely likely an enemy Cal scout is running a low enough precision to see through both my cloak and 1 dampener. I'm not saying it's easy for them, just that people do it because of the power of detecting cloaked scouts. So from a practical standpoint I use more dampeners now than in 1.7.
So for these reasons I don't think the cloak profile reduction should be changed. Maybe scanner arc should be increased a bit to compensate for the lack of 360 degree spins, but that's another (though related) issue.
*Cloak fitting is on the table still.
-Currently the fitting seems quite balanced so I would be reluctant to mess with this.
*Cloak decloak speed.
- This is a possibility. It would stop people attacking from cloak and from in front of enemies, which I can see being annoying. As I said before, the cloak does not need drastically changing, but if it needs it a slight increase in decloak to attack time may be that would be ok. This would work well with the scanning mechanics as it would increase opportunities for people to detect you with scans before you attack (i'm talking up to 1sec warning here). Also this is nice as it wouldn't have much affect on people who use the cloak purely for flanking/mobility rather than running at people head on.
*Cloak charge rate internally
- I would be against this. The way the cloak has been designed is different than how many people, including me, imagined it. Long cloak duration and quick regen is important to this design. I imagined the cloak giving near total invisibility that you can use for short periods against chosen targets. This is not the way it works though. It is designed to be a nearly passive defense against people who might otherwise catch you in sight without looking for you and spoiling your attempt at flanking without any effort. The visibility reduction is not very strong meaning you still have to play stealthily whilst cloaked. This is a very clever mechanic as it doesn't render all the skill learned over the past year being stealthy useless. This means you need to be cloaked for quite a large amount of time as it is often defending you against people that you are unaware of due to distance or randomly moving so you are in their line of sight, meaning it is difficult to predict exactly when you need to be cloaked. This point is also important for the profile reduction as I have explained.
(I moved the profile effect to the top as I feel most strongly about it, incase people got bored reading the rest, lol!) |
Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
55
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 12:14:00 -
[503] - Quote
Sorry to double post, but one more thing about the profile/scanning situation. I like it now as there are many more options and uncertainty. Before 1.8 it was easy to calculate or look up exactly what level of dampening you need. Now it is situational. Any amount of dampening is useful but not essential. I choose to go from no dampeners to 2. But equally many people might feel happy with the level of protection 1 dampener offers. There is no prescribed correct profile level. This makes the whole scanning meta game much more interesting than it was in 1.7 and I think it would be a real shame to mess it up. The cloak on/off extra dampening just adds to the interesting ewar situation. |
Scout Registry
Nos Nothi
2095
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 13:53:00 -
[504] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Sorry to double post, but one more thing about the profile/scanning situation. I like it now as there are many more options and uncertainty. Before 1.8 it was easy to calculate or look up exactly what level of dampening you need. Now it is situational. Any amount of dampening is useful but not essential. I choose to go from no dampeners to 2. But equally many people might feel happy with the level of protection 1 dampener offers. There is no prescribed correct profile level. This makes the whole scanning meta game much more interesting than it was in 1.7 and I think it would be a real shame to mess it up. The cloak on/off extra dampening just adds to the interesting ewar situation.
Couldn't agree more.
When was the last time any Scout said below 28 dB?
Remnant did an excellent job at making eWar more interesting. To be good at eWar, one must forego Slaying and/or Staying Power. This makes combat far less predictable and squads much more diverse than, say ...
Six up-armored Logi gk.0s, permascanning reds and shooting them like fish in a barrel. Rinsed and Repeated, all day every day. Slaying Power + Staying Power + eWar Supremacy ... where's the fun in that?
"I'm dying more often than I used to."
- Former Slayer Logi (EZ Mode) |
Yan Darn
Science For Death
522
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Posted - 2014.04.06 14:09:00 -
[505] - Quote
After reading the OP Edit everything Varoth and Shotty said ^ (though I still think Ewar is a bit too binary, this is still a better situation than before).
I'm also glad that the broadness of the balancing issues at hand haven't escaped the attention of IWS. I'd hate to see any changes to the scout other than decloak/shoot delay and/or sprint shimmer until the broader issues have had some attention.
The Ghost of Bravo
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14159
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 03:31:00 -
[506] - Quote
The shimmer effect under certain lighting conditions would be more of a technical fix that will involve more things than just balance.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
anaboop
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
19
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 22:23:00 -
[507] - Quote
After running an anti scout/cloak suit, ive found that u get hardly any kills or wps, I think a little incentive (not sure how) would be nice and may get more people into them.
In the moment when I understand my enemy, well enough to defeat him, I also love him. And then I destroy him.
|
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar
Silver Bullet Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
470
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:46:00 -
[508] - Quote
leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14175
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 00:04:00 -
[509] - Quote
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles
Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted.
Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
anaboop
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
20
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 01:05:00 -
[510] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted. Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy.
Thats cause they dont want to either skill into precisions, waste a spot for one or they dont want to get someone who is, once u can see them on the minimap they pose no threat, most of them dont even use dampeners which makes it even easier to spot them. With the decloaking, most of the time if your standing still they will get you easy, but thats the same at range if u stand still a sniper will pick u off, if you keep on the move its easy to miss that first shot which causes them to panic and gives you time to take them out.
After playing and testing them out I dont feel theres a need to change anything myself, its just lazy people want there ez mode back. Everyone is just used to stacking there mods on suits that they just dont want to use a spot for precisions or damps.
Lets see what hate I get, lol adapt or die, I did.
In the moment when I understand my enemy, well enough to defeat him, I also love him. And then I destroy him.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
31
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Posted - 2014.04.08 01:09:00 -
[511] - Quote
anaboop wrote:
Lets see what hate I get, lol adapt or die, I did.
I won't give you hate, but I will point out that your position today is the exact opposite of what it was only a few days ago.
You should quote yourself, then argue.
That'd be fun. Fun and appropriate.
Bang?
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anaboop
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
20
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Posted - 2014.04.08 01:25:00 -
[512] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:anaboop wrote:
Lets see what hate I get, lol adapt or die, I did.
I won't give you hate, but I will point out that your position today is the exact opposite of what it was only a few days ago. You should quote yourself, then argue. That'd be fun. Fun and appropriate.
My position was about the scout suit bonuses not as much the cloaks
I also said that after testing them out, running a suit with precisions, damps im able to hide and see most cloaked scouts, giving the edge on them.
If more people ran them, they would help the squad out alot, people running solo well get a squad as you cant have it all if your solo
In the moment when I understand my enemy, well enough to defeat him, I also love him. And then I destroy him.
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
760
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 05:12:00 -
[513] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted. Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy.
The more you post the more I dislike your decision making. Seriously? Bitching about cloaks on forums equals it needs fixing? The same people were posting multiple threads and in those threads multiple people often disagreed with them. The vocal few on the forums should not always be listened to.
Listen to the few that give solid arguments not the idiots that QQ.
Why don't you do something useful like the guy suggested.
...
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Enji Elric
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
Interstellar Murder of Crows
201
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 06:53:00 -
[514] - Quote
Just WOW... played a match against a team full of cloaked scouts and sentinels....
the scouts can get 2-3 shots off with their shotguns before they de-cloak
i'm sure the team that ran the cloaks thinks they arent broke im sure they think its the best thing ever. but when your not supposed to be able to fire your weapon while cloaked i don't think that just because you work your controller quickly shouldnt mean you are able to exploit something.
not to mention the insane amount of ehp they have compared to assault suits and commandos... with the ability to kill before you decloak is just insane |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
5031
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 08:15:00 -
[515] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted. Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy.
There are a lot of "remove cloak" and "nerf cloak" threads, but there are almost as many "cloak is fine" threads as well. And the discussions in most threads, regardless of which side it's supporting, is FAR from one-sided in almost every case. There are a lot of people saying the cloak is fine in the threads where the title suggests otherwise.
For the most part, people DON'T come to a game forum to say "This newly added item doesn't need work" even when they feel that way. The people who have problems with it show up saying "this needs a buff" or "this needs a nerf", and the rest just keep playing. The number of "cloak is fine" threads should be a pretty good indication that cloaks ARE fine, and that the people saying that are here because of problems they've had with OTHER aspects of the game. |
Pseudogenesis
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
103
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 09:02:00 -
[516] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted. Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy.
Come on IWS, if you were to use the forums as a basis for your beliefs then you would think that Dust has been dead for months, every weapon is overpowered, and every member of CCP is lacking a frontal lobe. |
Retarn Dominus
H.A.R.V.E.S.T.
49
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 09:17:00 -
[517] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Glitches obviously need to be fixed, but glitches are glitches.
Moving while cloaked is easy to see.
Flux grenades should fully drain a cloaks recharge meter thing.
^ This. simples.
What? You think your Complex armour plating on your sweet Proto will save you? Think again BOOM
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Paul Ellinas
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
52
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 17:25:00 -
[518] - Quote
A big part of the OP scouts is that the weapons they use where made for visible scouts.
Before the cloak we didn't have enough experience with shotguns from so close. And the main opinion was if he comes close enough with the SG he earned the kill. Now with the cloak its much easier to get close with the SG.
After talking today with some scouts in my squad i learned that there is no big deference in damage between the militia and the prototype shotgun. You need 3 shots for a heavy with each one of them. The only difference is the target has more health left between the shots. Smart scouts are running the basic one its the best balance between price/damage/CPU/PG. And with more health left between the shots the chance someone else taking their kill is minimal.
Nerfing the shotgun is a must but on a smart way so its not useless.
Ideas
1. Reduce the ROF and increase it by tier.
2. Make the basic Magazine to have one shell and increase the shells by tier.
The basic idea behind that is that the tier of the shotgun has to play a role like an all the other weapons.
I don't know about nova knifes.I didn't talk with players about them and i don't use them.
And i don't know if that can be fixed with a hot fix. Can we have a enlightenment on what a hot fix can do and what needs a patch(update). |
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar
Silver Bullet Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
472
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 17:36:00 -
[519] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted. Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy.
Just because there are a lot of QQ cloak threads dosnt mean they are broken,not working as intended, or OP, the reason for the generation of daily cloak qq threads is due to the proliferation of NEW content ,lots of people want to use it so you see lots of cloaked dudes and lots of qq whiny babies getting murked by new stuff and then create op this, nerf that threads. IGNORE THE QQ CLOAKS ARE FINE |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14178
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 12:49:00 -
[520] - Quote
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted. Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy. Just because there are a lot of QQ cloak threads dosnt mean they are broken,not working as intended, or OP, the reason for the generation of daily cloak qq threads is due to the proliferation of NEW content ,lots of people want to use it so you see lots of cloaked dudes and lots of qq whiny babies getting murked by new stuff and then create op this, nerf that threads. IGNORE THE QQ CLOAKS ARE FINE
Sure similar to how new HAVs are...
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14178
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:04:00 -
[521] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted. Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy. The more you post the more I dislike your decision making. Seriously? Bitching about cloaks on forums equals it needs fixing? The same people were posting multiple threads and in those threads multiple people often disagreed with them. The vocal few on the forums should not always be listened to. Listen to the few that give solid arguments not the idiots that QQ. Why don't you do something useful like the guy suggested.
and yet on the heels of the QQ; are the ones WITH Solid arguments.
and Ill extend the advice to you as well why don't you make yourself useful by posting something constructive to the entire conversation.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
768
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Posted - 2014.04.09 14:57:00 -
[522] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ares 514 wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted. Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy. The more you post the more I dislike your decision making. Seriously? Bitching about cloaks on forums equals it needs fixing? The same people were posting multiple threads and in those threads multiple people often disagreed with them. The vocal few on the forums should not always be listened to. Listen to the few that give solid arguments not the idiots that QQ. Why don't you do something useful like the guy suggested. and yet on the heels of the QQ; are the ones WITH Solid arguments. and Ill extend the advice to you as well why don't you make yourself useful by posting something constructive to the entire conversation.
I have multiple times. Much better then the dribble that you spew out.
...
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Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar
Silver Bullet Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
472
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Posted - 2014.04.09 15:31:00 -
[523] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted. Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy. Just because there are a lot of QQ cloak threads dosnt mean they are broken,not working as intended, or OP, the reason for the generation of daily cloak qq threads is due to the proliferation of NEW content ,lots of people want to use it so you see lots of cloaked dudes and lots of qq whiny babies getting murked by new stuff and then create op this, nerf that threads. IGNORE THE QQ CLOAKS ARE FINE Sure similar to how new HAVs are...
no its not similar at all, av was too weak to kill a tank quick enough, sort of a problem but not really if you use a tank for av.
there is nothing wrong with cloaks and there are viable counters to it, so, tell me how its similar to havs other than all the QQ whinner threads?
Also why are you the only cpm to have an opinion on this in this thread it dosnt seem like the others care either way, partly because this is a non-issue im sure, why cant you guys come together and dicuss something usefull like how dust needs pve to grow a successfull playerbase and how to get that point across to ccp? You guys are our community reps andi know for a fact that the majority ofthe community wants pve so do something about it instead of pushing non-issues |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
77
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Posted - 2014.04.09 15:53:00 -
[524] - Quote
Quote:
Sure similar to how new HAVs are...
HAV: [fires clip of proto swarms, tosses proto AV nades, gets blasted anyway]
Cloak: [shoots shimmer, +50]
Bang?
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Paul Ellinas
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
53
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Posted - 2014.04.09 16:24:00 -
[525] - Quote
After talking today with some scouts in my squad i learned that there is no big deference in damage between the militia and the prototype shotgun. You need 3 shots for a heavy with each one of them. The only difference is the target has more health left between the shots. Smart scouts are running the basic one its the best balance between price/damage/CPU/PG.And with more health left between the shots the chance someone else taking their kill is minimal.
Nerfing the shotgun is a must but on a smart way so its not useless.
Consider this for the CPU/PG nerf to the cloak bonus.
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Yan Darn
Science For Death
551
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Posted - 2014.04.09 16:45:00 -
[526] - Quote
Paul Ellinas wrote:After talking today with some scouts in my squad i learned that there is no big deference in damage between the militia and the prototype shotgun. You need 3 shots for a heavy with each one of them. The only difference is the target has more health left between the shots. Smart scouts are running the basic one its the best balance between price/damage/CPU/PG.And with more health left between the shots the chance someone else taking their kill is minimal.
Nerfing the shotgun is a must but on a smart way so its not useless.
Consider this for the CPU/PG nerf to the cloak bonus.
Appia knows the math (can't be arsed finding her thread, hopefully she has sensed the disturbance in The Force here and explains in person) but the reason the overall performance is now similar is because the shotgun proficiency was nerfed in 1.8. Previously using ADV/Proto versions gave you a bigger benefit than they do now.
I still like the extra alpha of the CRG/K5 against scouts and STD suits.
Point being, shotguns got nerfed already this patch, and no one complained about them before - so I hope we can all keep focus on what makes shotguns and the rest appear more powerful before, rather than call for a nerf on every mod, weapon and piece equipment a typical Tryhard scout might use.
The Ghost of Bravo
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Paul Ellinas
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
53
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Posted - 2014.04.09 17:40:00 -
[527] - Quote
Before 1.8 nobody had a problem with SG becouse you needed real skill to get close. The main opinion was he got close enough with SG he earned the kill. After 1.8 it mutch easier to get close enough to use the SG and mor common. That's why the talk about SG is happening now.
Proficency nerf was for most weapons in 1.8. Fact is CCP will nerf the SG like they did with the LR,FL,RR. They count how many times the x weapon made a kill against y weapon. |
Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
1653
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Posted - 2014.04.09 18:07:00 -
[528] - Quote
First of all if someone can get close enough to shotgun you, whether they were cloaked or not they are still very vulnerable. I get killed by scouts no more than I did back in open beta, the difference is there are far more scouts than before. At the same time I am concerned about tanked up scouts, because it does completely outdo the assault. This thread is about the cloak though.
So I propose that the cloak bonus be changes
from 15% PG and CPU reduction per level
to 10% PG and 15% CPU reduction per level
I Ewar up my Gallente scout fitting primarily range amplifiers and and precision enhancers. I have almost no tank but even with a standard sidearm and grenade I run out of CPU easily. All health mods eat up a lot of PG so the cloak vs. health balance would be more profound if there was less of a PG reduction for scout.
Paul Ellinas wrote:Before 1.8 nobody had a problem with SG becouse you needed real skill to get close. The main opinion was he got close enough with SG he earned the kill. After 1.8 it mutch easier to get close enough to use the SG and mor common. That's why the talk about SG is happening now.
Proficency nerf was for most weapons in 1.8. Fact is CCP will nerf the SG like they did with the LR,FL,RR. They count how many times the x weapon made a kill against y weapon.
The SG isn't OP. It has the shortest range and the highest damage. If a cloaked scout sneaks up on you that is you're bad for not watching your back or having someone else do it. The SG is currently the only blaster weapon that properly fits the profile. If you've ever used one you'd also know it's not always easy to get the proper shot off, HD issues and a tight dispersion plague it. The shotgun being relevant again doesn't make it OP, how about instead of calling for it's nerf you demand an AR or Plasma Cannon buff.
Supporter of tiericide, EVE interaction, and a proper NPE SoonGäó514
"No blue tags make Tallen go crazy.
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keno trader
FACTION WARFARE ARMY
FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
0
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Posted - 2014.04.09 18:33:00 -
[529] - Quote
Here are me ol' thoughts on the current situaci+¦n regarding ze cloak. (And why it is less OP than most people think it is)
With around 8 million SP thrown into the whole scout affair, here is the most (pressing) concerns in my mind:
MY "SOLID" EVIDENCE/CONCLUSIONS:
What cloaking actually does (for the scout players out there and not the assaults/heavies saying its OP) is that it buys scouts an extra 1-2 seconds of extra time to get in real close to the enemy. It is not Harry Potter's invisible cape to run across the battlefield in. If you believe that you are for some reason invisible and can run headlong at an enemy, then you are mistaken. I've already seen several scouts attempt this, and trust me, it was not pretty.
What it is actually useful for is flanking. When you go about flanking, you have two common concerns:
a) Getting spotted before getting there.
b) Getting spotted by an enemy who turns around.
The cloak will buy you some time and excuse certain mistakes in both these situations. The first is obvious. It will make it harder for you to get spotted by a careless enemy. The second gives you 1-2 seconds to sneak up and shotgun/whatever the enemy. So in effect, it is a continuation of the Scout's role. A natural progression if you ask me.
Equally pressing is the fact that scouts can no longer mass drive the living daylights out of unsuspecting enemies. They can shotgun, but that's not quite the same effect. So I really see no issue there.
MY OPINION:
Cloaking right now does make it a bit of a snafu when it comes to fittings, but that's fine. We make compromises for it. Right now, my proto caldari Scout has:
3 Complex Shields, 1 Precision Enhacing thing, 1 complex armor (or ferroscale depending) and a rep (or cardio boost). This thing is adequate at speed, but in effect has to be used quite conservatively even with the cloak. Clocking in at around 500 shield/armor (I can't remember the exact numbers) it is still very easily destroyed if not played carefully (guess who learnt that the hard way ). In fact, I find that the cloak isn't all that wondrous, but it does give the scout a new playstyle....so that it's not just a fast Assault suit.
MY PROBLEMS WITH CLOAK:
-The cloaked period is a little long, if anything I'm willing to take a 25% duration cut there for a PG/CPU usage reduction.
-The shimmer doesn't vary with movement. This in and of itself is a nerf. I can be moving an inch/hour and still have that sill blue shimmer. You'd have to be blind to miss it...no kidding!
-VERY HARD TO ACTIVATE WITH THE CONTROLLER.  |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14179
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Posted - 2014.04.09 18:54:00 -
[530] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:
I have multiple times. Much better then the dribble that you spew out.
Really?
Ares 514 wrote:
I guess my issue is where the heck were these threads asking for input for the four months of tank BS.
I guess my issue is I don't yet see it being OP.
A minor imbalance at best.
Seriously I don't get it.
So if you take that into consideration I think your wrong.
I'm glad you like a horrible idea.
Tanks have to be careful?
What I hear now that you don't see people bitching about is the heavies.
It was wasted.
The more you post the more I dislike your decision making.
I have multiple times. Much better then the dribble that you spew out.
Stop trying to protect your new favorite toy at any cost and maybe you can seem a bit more reasonable to me and before you accuse me of skimming posts you have posted several dozen times in evidence of doing so yourself; which unfortunately requires me to read your posts.
I find your information nearly useless. You make statements nothing more; do don't get into the nuts and bolts of the conversation in most of your posts. Others delve into the whys, hows and whats and dig deeper with every reply you however are refusing to dig.
This is after all a conversation aimed at arming the cpm with knowledge about the whole nature of cloaks from all sides of the arguments.
Thus yesmen to poor design like yourself are nearly absolutely useless in this discussion.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
769
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Posted - 2014.04.09 19:12:00 -
[531] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ares 514 wrote:
I have multiple times. Much better then the dribble that you spew out.
Really? Ares 514 wrote:
I guess my issue is where the heck were these threads asking for input for the four months of tank BS.
I guess my issue is I don't yet see it being OP.
A minor imbalance at best.
Seriously I don't get it.
So if you take that into consideration I think your wrong.
I'm glad you like a horrible idea.
Tanks have to be careful?
What I hear now that you don't see people bitching about is the heavies.
It was wasted.
The more you post the more I dislike your decision making.
I have multiple times. Much better then the dribble that you spew out.
Stop trying to protect your new favorite toy at any cost and maybe you can seem a bit more reasonable to me and before you accuse me of skimming posts you have posted several dozen times in evidence of doing so yourself; which unfortunately requires me to read your posts. I find your information nearly useless. You make statements nothing more; do don't get into the nuts and bolts of the conversation in most of your posts. Others delve into the whys, hows and whats and dig deeper with every reply you however are refusing to dig. This is after all a conversation aimed at arming the cpm with knowledge about the whole nature of cloaks from all sides of the arguments. Thus yesmen to poor design like yourself are nearly absolutely useless in this discussion.
Great cherry picking. So what about that first one about tanks?! Most of my points have been deal with the real issues, not minor ones at best. Instead, you wander off on your own little tangent and ignore the MANY real issues.
Whatever, you have your little battle. Who cares about vehicle spam, vehicle imbalance, PC ISK printing, the OP logi's that went on for over a year that you never commented on. The OP weapons that have come and gone while you twiddled your thumbs.
Don't remember you ever commenting on those. Way to fight the good fight.
...
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keno trader
FACTION WARFARE ARMY
FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
2
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Posted - 2014.04.09 19:32:00 -
[532] - Quote
So...CPM vs. player and not a single piece of useful information yielded. Looks like...it's time to cloak my way past this argument. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Horatio, CSI Miami |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14179
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Posted - 2014.04.09 19:34:00 -
[533] - Quote
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted. Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy. Just because there are a lot of QQ cloak threads dosnt mean they are broken,not working as intended, or OP, the reason for the generation of daily cloak qq threads is due to the proliferation of NEW content ,lots of people want to use it so you see lots of cloaked dudes and lots of qq whiny babies getting murked by new stuff and then create op this, nerf that threads. IGNORE THE QQ CLOAKS ARE FINE Sure similar to how new HAVs are... no its not similar at all, av was too weak to kill a tank quick enough, sort of a problem but not really if you use a tank for av. there is nothing wrong with cloaks and there are viable counters to it, so, tell me how its similar to havs other than all the QQ whinner threads? Also why are you the only cpm to have an opinion on this in this thread it dosnt seem like the others care either way, partly because this is a non-issue im sure, why cant you guys come together and dicuss something usefull like how dust needs pve to grow a successfull playerbase and how to get that point across to ccp? You guys are our community reps andi know for a fact that the majority ofthe community wants pve so do something about it instead of pushing non-issues
Why am I the only CPM...
I'll be frank; they're busy with bigger fish (which has nothing to do with game design/features/or generally the game itself.) and despite me being involved as well I still manage to squeeze out time to do some rounds of the forums. I dont have time to find the 40 pages of cloaks and read them all. CPM are involved elsewhere and are still highly approachable irc and skype channels are a bristle with many types of topics there is also private convos and mails. Or even better at times through your corp leaders and alliance leaders that are in contact with the CPM as most of those folks that are in considerably easier to work with. However based on what is discussed here the hecklers wouldn't find themselves welcomed by the resident bitter vet on skype and IRC whose passionate hatred for the cloak will only **** you off further into a driveling mess.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14179
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Posted - 2014.04.09 19:35:00 -
[534] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ares 514 wrote:
I have multiple times. Much better then the dribble that you spew out.
Really? Ares 514 wrote:
I guess my issue is where the heck were these threads asking for input for the four months of tank BS.
I guess my issue is I don't yet see it being OP.
A minor imbalance at best.
Seriously I don't get it.
So if you take that into consideration I think your wrong.
I'm glad you like a horrible idea.
Tanks have to be careful?
What I hear now that you don't see people bitching about is the heavies.
It was wasted.
The more you post the more I dislike your decision making.
I have multiple times. Much better then the dribble that you spew out.
Stop trying to protect your new favorite toy at any cost and maybe you can seem a bit more reasonable to me and before you accuse me of skimming posts you have posted several dozen times in evidence of doing so yourself; which unfortunately requires me to read your posts. I find your information nearly useless. You make statements nothing more; do don't get into the nuts and bolts of the conversation in most of your posts. Others delve into the whys, hows and whats and dig deeper with every reply you however are refusing to dig. This is after all a conversation aimed at arming the cpm with knowledge about the whole nature of cloaks from all sides of the arguments. Thus yesmen to poor design like yourself are nearly absolutely useless in this discussion. Great cherry picking. So what about that first one about tanks?! Most of my points have been deal with the real issues, not minor ones at best. Instead, you wander off on your own little tangent and ignore the MANY real issues. Whatever, you have your little battle. Who cares about vehicle spam, vehicle imbalance, PC ISK printing, the OP logi's that went on for over a year that you never commented on. The OP weapons that have come and gone while you twiddled your thumbs. Don't remember you ever commenting on those. Way to fight the good fight.
I am the most proficient poster on the forums; good luck reading all of my posts.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Yan Darn
Science For Death
557
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Posted - 2014.04.09 19:53:00 -
[535] - Quote
@ keno trader - You're pretty much saying what I'm thinking regarding the cloaks usefulness.
Paul Ellinas wrote:Before 1.8 nobody had a problem with SG becouse you needed real skill to get close.The main opinion was he got close enough with SG he earned the kill. After 1.8 it mutch easier to get close enough to use the SG and mor common. That's why the talk about SG is happening now.
Proficency nerf was for most weapons in 1.8. Fact is CCP will nerf the SG like they did with the LR,FL,RR. They count how many times the x weapon made a kill against y weapon.
This is...like exactly what I'm talking about
Cloaks make it easier for cloaked scouts to get into shotgun range.
Ok.
So, imagine there was an animation delay between decloaking and shooting - wouldn't that ease the situation?
Imagine there was increased shimmer when sprinting (but less shimmer when walking) - wouldn't that ease the situation?
More ways to detect cloaked scouts -wouldn't that ease the situation?
I mean...you kinda said it yourself, that if you were to nerf the shotgun, it would have to be in an intelligent way - I don't understand why any kind of direct nerf to the shotgun itself is intelligent solution to this particular...'problem'.
It's because of this kind of talk I'd rather have cloaks removed at this point - if CCP even listens to a fraction of some of the scoutphobic talk going on in the forums, we're not even going to have the effectiveness of 1.7 (or less) scouts by the end of it.
That's as much an admonishment of CCP as much as anyone else - they have't exactly proven themselves as proficient in this 'rebalance' thing.
The Ghost of Bravo
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14179
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Posted - 2014.04.09 20:03:00 -
[536] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:@ keno trader - You're pretty much saying what I'm thinking regarding the cloaks usefulness. Paul Ellinas wrote:Before 1.8 nobody had a problem with SG becouse you needed real skill to get close.The main opinion was he got close enough with SG he earned the kill. After 1.8 it mutch easier to get close enough to use the SG and mor common. That's why the talk about SG is happening now.
Proficency nerf was for most weapons in 1.8. Fact is CCP will nerf the SG like they did with the LR,FL,RR. They count how many times the x weapon made a kill against y weapon. This is...like exactly what I'm talking about Cloaks make it easier for cloaked scouts to get into shotgun range. Ok. So, imagine there was an animation delay between decloaking and shooting - wouldn't that ease the situation? Imagine there was increased shimmer when sprinting (but less shimmer when walking) - wouldn't that ease the situation? More ways to detect cloaked scouts -wouldn't that ease the situation? I mean...you kinda said it yourself, that if you were to nerf the shotgun, it would have to be in an intelligent way - I don't understand why any kind of direct nerf to the shotgun itself is intelligent solution to this particular...'problem'. It's because of this kind of talk I'd rather have cloaks removed at this point - if CCP even listens to a fraction of some of the scoutphobic talk going on in the forums, we're not even going to have the effectiveness of 1.7 (or less) scouts by the end of it. That's as much an admonishment of CCP as much as anyone else - they have't exactly proven themselves as proficient in this 'rebalance' thing.
You however run into the new problem of destroying meta.
Why run shotgun without cloak?
Scouts would adapt to the breach shotgun and may even stack damage mods.
Other's have pointed out that militia performance is pretty powerful as is (goes back to now the years old argument that the differential in base and protoshotties was too small)
The list goes on to create hundreds of more problems to nearly obscure the shotgun back out of existence again after the long struggle to just get it to being an acceptable weapon.
Even if you manage to 'fairly' nerf the shotgun you're now having players shifting to weapons of the highest damage compression; so that means weapons such as the SMG and Magsec which last I checked nearly killed every suit out there before they had a chance to fully turn around. Then of course; mass driver, grenades, and just about any other light weapon that can kill within a 180 are suspect which means all automatics and semiautomatics as well.
Also the shotgun was already nerfed this patch for end game players and they're still not fond of it.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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keno trader
FACTION WARFARE ARMY
FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
2
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Posted - 2014.04.09 20:05:00 -
[537] - Quote
@Yan Darn...exactly.
Why does the shotgun need a nerf...in fact giving the crappy handling on controller it really needed the buff that the cloaking gives it. The problem is...a lot people are being spaztastic about it...but let's consider the following situation.
Scout sneaks up on a group of 4 with Shotgun/cloaking. It's not like he's annihilating the entire squad now. He's still just taking 1 player, just with more success and a higher chance of escape. That seems to be a major point that most don't understand.
Cloaking is good, and...
In all honesty...some dust players just need to man up and bite the bullet like players in other games do. Big triple A shooters have nerfs/changes all the time...and hours of work unlocking a certain weapon and its attachments can go to waste instantly. We just need stop being lame about it and just deal with it....ESPECIALLY WHEN IT ISN'T GAME BREAKING.
Now...if CCP could properly rebalance everything with all the new content finally in the game and offer a total respec in weapons....that'd be nice. |
Yan Darn
Science For Death
558
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Posted - 2014.04.09 20:51:00 -
[538] - Quote
@ IWS
- you quoted me, but I'm assuming you were referring to what Paul was saying. Just wanted to make sure there wasn't a misunderstanding.
@ keno - again, I'm in agreement.
I recently made a dual uplink fit as I realised I didn't really need to 'infiltrate' anywhere at the start of battle when I set them up. Of course, I do find myself in 'situations', and I just reconfirmed what I already knew - I was still able to track targets for ages because they refuse to check their six, I can still solo guard objectives by using my passives to stay out of LOS, I can still take down a logi-heavy duo when I flank em while they are distracted.
In my normal fit I can do this better than I could before 1.8 - but not like twice as good or anything, just those times when that random guy spotted me trying to get somewhere and RR'd me, or when I needed that bit more stamina to jump over that railing to escape, or when trying to hide from a proto squad taking the objective (so I can hack it back when they move on...).
This isn't the sort of thing that was OP before - so lets us not carried away by nerfing those things because we find them annoying or whatever, and completely forget scouts needed a buff to be competitive (there was a reason that only commandos were less popular than us...).
Did we need cloaks for that to happen? No, in my opinion - but CCP were really excited about giving us this toy to play with and now we are stuck with it. We can't nerf it into uselessness while our role bonus is tied to it (and only it).
I'm just trying to make sure this one device doesn't bring down everything that I enjoyed about scouts.
The Ghost of Bravo
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Galthur
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
438
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Posted - 2014.04.09 21:02:00 -
[539] - Quote
I find cloaks well balanced and work well, a large problem here is EWAR and how some aren't good at spotting cloakies.
Once one is good at either cloakies are easy kills. The only change I would want is a slight increase in scan precision (2-4 db) as this directly ties into a lot of peoples problems with scouts whether they know it or not.
IRC guest keeps thinking I'm Obiwan
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Clone D
178
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Posted - 2014.04.09 21:36:00 -
[540] - Quote
Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam.
.
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Yan Darn
Science For Death
559
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Posted - 2014.04.09 21:47:00 -
[541] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam.
Please just be trolling, please.
It'd be funny then, because, y'know, I just made two ridiculously huge posts explaining exactly why this sort of statement is just...'unhelpful' and...'misguided'.
The Ghost of Bravo
|
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar
Silver Bullet Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
473
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 21:50:00 -
[542] - Quote
the only thing im going to suggest to curb brick tanked cloked scouts will be to add a scan profile increase to fitting plates that would be a reasonable testable change , however im not in favor of changing cloak mechanics at all.
IWS it souds like u need get the shortendof the cpm stick being the only one whoever really plays the gameor interacts with the rest of the community on these here fourms, but it belive its time to end this nerf buff bullcrap we have been doing for the past 10 months, and push ccp for more content and less tweaks to mechanics or stats, hell we are still missing 4 pilot suits, 9 racial vehicles frames, and seveal weapons per race wich all will probly need a tweak after they release them. |
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar
Silver Bullet Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
473
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 21:57:00 -
[543] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam.
yeah thats why i killed u several times today while you were in a cloaked scout suit, a few while u were cloaked? cause using cloaks is sooooooo and and you didnt seemto have aproblem shooting me while i was cloaked either |
ugg reset
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
550
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 21:59:00 -
[544] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam.
right because I need a cloak to pull that off. #sarcasm
Thr33 is the magic number.
|
keno trader
FACTION WARFARE ARMY
FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
5
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 22:28:00 -
[545] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam.
Playing smart, not spineless. Besides...you know what is really spineless....brick tanking. Brick tankers need those bricks to help prop up their spines. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14180
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 22:45:00 -
[546] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam.
Starts hack in one of those nook capture points;
turn around
wait
profit.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
anaboop
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
26
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 23:00:00 -
[547] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam. Starts hack in one of those nook capture points; turn around wait profit.
Exactly, its the same with remotes, start hack or throw nade move away then go again, does that make remotes spineless? Lol.
All it takes is a simple 180 or another person to watch your back, that knows that going for the hack points can get u both killed.
Obtaining the objective is better then a 100wp , even if u die protecting the hacker, those few extra seconds make or break the obtained objective.
In the moment when I understand my enemy, well enough to defeat him, I also love him. And then I destroy him.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14185
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 23:59:00 -
[548] - Quote
anaboop wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam. Starts hack in one of those nook capture points; turn around wait profit. Exactly, its the same with remotes, start hack or throw nade move away then go again, does that make remotes spineless? Lol. All it takes is a simple 180 or another person to watch your back, that knows that going for the hack points can get u both killed. Obtaining the objective is better then a 100wp , even if u die protecting the hacker, those few extra seconds make or break the obtained objective.
problem is it works on more often on non cloaked targets.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
anaboop
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
26
|
Posted - 2014.04.10 08:29:00 -
[549] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:anaboop wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam. Starts hack in one of those nook capture points; turn around wait profit. Exactly, its the same with remotes, start hack or throw nade move away then go again, does that make remotes spineless? Lol. All it takes is a simple 180 or another person to watch your back, that knows that going for the hack points can get u both killed. Obtaining the objective is better then a 100wp , even if u die protecting the hacker, those few extra seconds make or break the obtained objective. problem is it works on more often on non cloaked targets.
People will just find something else to complain about anyway
In the moment when I understand my enemy, well enough to defeat him, I also love him. And then I destroy him.
|
SILENTSAM 69
SONS of LEGION
RISE of LEGION
663
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 22:10:00 -
[550] - Quote
Paul Ellinas wrote:SILENTSAM 69 wrote:It is funny to see anyone is upset. The cloak is very balanced. It is very easy to spot a cloaked player if you just pay attention. I am almost worried some people have figured out a tint setting on their TV that makes that blue shimmer even more obvious than it already is.
Spotting cloaked players by scans does happen, and lights them up for your whole squad to see. Paying attention to your cursor going red, or seeing a strange shimmer on the side of the screen sets people apart. Some are observant and some are not.
The cloak has added well balanced fun, new tactics, and methods of finding your role on the battlefield. With all the people that see me quite easily at long range, I almost think it needs the blue shimmer toned down slightly, or maybe just only toned down when crouched. Making a reason for them to creep around while crouched to reduce shimmer would make the stealth even more fun. If it isn't already doing it and I just run around too much...
Fix any bugs of course, but I hope the cloak doesn't get changed. It is very well balanced and a great view of things to come. Scouts with 700armor and 120shields and a clock are OP. A scout(a light frame drop suite) should not have the possibility to tank HP like assaults.
They can choose to have a bad fit if they want. Those Scouts are easy to spot and often killed while cloaked because we can still see an indicator over their heads.
If any change is made to the cloak it would be to offer ways to reduce the bright and obvious shimmer. |
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SILENTSAM 69
SONS of LEGION
RISE of LEGION
663
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 22:21:00 -
[551] - Quote
If you think the cloak is invisible it is likely a TV issue. On some TV's may find it difficult to notice them, but to others they are bright shimmering targets that get shot at from a distance.
Even with profile dampeners, and not being scanned, just see you as an obvious target ad kill you from far away.
Cloaks require you to stand still if you really want to stay hidden, and they are vulnerable to scans. I see cloaked players standing still often enough with my passive scan alone. Often trying to bad tanked fit... There are easy tactics to making cloaked players exposed. Try a grenade if you are unsure, just as if you thought there might be some RE's hidden. They do run out, you could try standing still like a person did with me yesterday. He just waited out my cloak time.
Plain and simple, there are work around and tactics to use. Quit crying for hand holding and try thinking and figuring out the balance. |
Onesimus Tarsus
703rd
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1889
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 22:25:00 -
[552] - Quote
SILENTSAM 69 wrote:If you think the cloak is invisible it is likely a TV issue. On some TV's may find it difficult to notice them, but to others they are bright shimmering targets that get shot at from a distance.
Even with profile dampeners, and not being scanned, just see you as an obvious target ad kill you from far away.
Cloaks require you to stand still if you really want to stay hidden, and they are vulnerable to scans. I see cloaked players standing still often enough with my passive scan alone. Often trying to bad tanked fit... There are easy tactics to making cloaked players exposed. Try a grenade if you are unsure, just as if you thought there might be some RE's hidden. They do run out, you could try standing still like a person did with me yesterday. He just waited out my cloak time.
Plain and simple, there are work around and tactics to use. Quit crying for hand holding and try thinking and figuring out the balance.
Why does anyone even use a cloak, when they obviously don't really work? Hives and Uplinks are more useful.
1.8 (!) forum warrior. SMG wielder. Mama's boy.
703rd for life! (or at least, for now).
|
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2487
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 22:38:00 -
[553] - Quote
SILENTSAM 69 wrote:If you think the cloak is invisible it is likely a TV issue. On some TV's may find it difficult to notice them, but to others they are bright shimmering targets that get shot at from a distance.
Even with profile dampeners, and not being scanned, just see you as an obvious target ad kill you from far away.
Cloaks require you to stand still if you really want to stay hidden, and they are vulnerable to scans. I see cloaked players standing still often enough with my passive scan alone. Often trying to bad tanked fit... There are easy tactics to making cloaked players exposed. Try a grenade if you are unsure, just as if you thought there might be some RE's hidden. They do run out, you could try standing still like a person did with me yesterday. He just waited out my cloak time.
Plain and simple, there are work around and tactics to use. Quit crying for hand holding and try thinking and figuring out the balance.
Cloaked Scout
NOBODY MOVE!! Now for then next 30-60 seconds conce trate really hard on trying to notice a scouts ize blue shimmer.
But sarge, won't that just make us an easy target if he does sneak up, or even to all those troops up on the hill.
Goddamn it private, if you can't see a fient blue shimmer in the middle of this battlefield filled with bullets explosions and tanks then ill courst marshall you myself.
but . . .
but nothing private, whrn we get bact to camp I am gonna h---
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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Eko Sol
Strange Playings
154
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 22:41:00 -
[554] - Quote
Cloak helps bad players be decent players...period. There is no other piece of equipment, module, racial bonus, fit, etc. that does that. I don't know what needs to be done but something does need to be changed. I run the cloak myself and have some serious success. A success that I would not have had if I didn't run the cloak and ran normal scout. No, I am not a bad player but I am an average player that is now getting good to great player level results. There is a serious balance issue. not to mention that if you are brand new to the game and skill 1 point into cloak, 3 into light suits, and 3 into scout suits you will barely be able to have a complete fit if you pop on a basic cloak. If you only skill 1 into scout suits and 1 into cloak, you won't be able to fit the cloak AT ALL. So new players getting merc'd by cloaks can't even attempt to emulate it until they hit closer to 2 or 3 mil SP. There are problems with it. I just don't know what the fix should be. Personally, I think a strong start is to reduce the 15% reduction to CPU/PG usage to 7% and then change the cloak skill itself to 7% reduction per skill point. It takes a lot less skill points to get that 5 in the cloak skill then it does to go to level 5 in the scout suit. That means at 3 in the scout suit and having a 4 or 5 in the cloak skill makes having a cloak, if you are newer, much more viable early on. Not to mention that I will be proto min scout soon and only use the basic cloak. I have no need for anything above that. There is no incentive for me to use skill points there. |
Onesimus Tarsus
703rd
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1894
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 23:11:00 -
[555] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam. Starts hack in one of those nook capture points; turn around wait profit.
So, wait, it keeps hacking when you turn around?
I DID NOT KNOW THAT!!!!
1.8 (!) forum warrior. SMG wielder. Mama's boy.
703rd for life! (or at least, for now).
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14193
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 23:30:00 -
[556] - Quote
Onesimus Tarsus wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam. Starts hack in one of those nook capture points; turn around wait profit. So, wait, it keeps hacking when you turn around? I DID NOT KNOW THAT!!!!
No but starting the hack tricks people into checking the console out making sure its okay. A variation is to stat the hack walk out of the nook and watch a guy round the corner and blind shoot into the nook thinking there is a scout there.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
Onesimus Tarsus
703rd
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1896
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 23:33:00 -
[557] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Onesimus Tarsus wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam. Starts hack in one of those nook capture points; turn around wait profit. So, wait, it keeps hacking when you turn around? I DID NOT KNOW THAT!!!! No but starting the hack tricks people into checking the console out making sure its okay. A variation is to stat the hack walk out of the nook and watch a guy round the corner and blind shoot into the nook thinking there is a scout there.
I think most people prefer:
1. Hit button, become invisible.
2. Go find people.
3. Shoot them while still largely invisible.
4. Go invisible again.
5. Repeat until team is cloned out despite hacking statuses.
1.8 (!) forum warrior. SMG wielder. Mama's boy.
703rd for life! (or at least, for now).
|
keno trader
Resheph Interstellar Strategy
Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 23:35:00 -
[558] - Quote
Eko Sol wrote:Cloak helps bad players be decent players...period. There is no other piece of equipment, module, racial bonus, fit, etc. that does that. I don't know what needs to be done but something does need to be changed. I run the cloak myself and have some serious success. A success that I would not have had if I didn't run the cloak and ran normal scout. No, I am not a bad player but I am an average player that is now getting good to great player level results. There is a serious balance issue. not to mention that if you are brand new to the game and skill 1 point into cloak, 3 into light suits, and 3 into scout suits you will barely be able to have a complete fit if you pop on a basic cloak. If you only skill 1 into scout suits and 1 into cloak, you won't be able to fit the cloak AT ALL. So new players getting merc'd by cloaks can't even attempt to emulate it until they hit closer to 2 or 3 mil SP. There are problems with it. I just don't know what the fix should be. Personally, I think a strong start is to reduce the 15% reduction to CPU/PG usage to 7% and then change the cloak skill itself to 7% reduction per skill point. It takes a lot less skill points to get that 5 in the cloak skill then it does to go to level 5 in the scout suit. That means at 3 in the scout suit and having a 4 or 5 in the cloak skill makes having a cloak, if you are newer, much more viable early on. Not to mention that I will be proto min scout soon and only use the basic cloak. I have no need for anything above that. There is no incentive for me to use skill points there.
Lol. Guess what else helps bad players turn into decent players. Armor tanking. Want to take that away too?
I have no idea about you, but the cloak is literally useless if not utilized correctly. I suppose you're a good player if you're having serious success...or was that something you wanted us to say. |
Eko Sol
Strange Playings
155
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 23:53:00 -
[559] - Quote
keno trader wrote:Eko Sol wrote:Cloak helps bad players be decent players...period. There is no other piece of equipment, module, racial bonus, fit, etc. that does that. I don't know what needs to be done but something does need to be changed. I run the cloak myself and have some serious success. A success that I would not have had if I didn't run the cloak and ran normal scout. No, I am not a bad player but I am an average player that is now getting good to great player level results. There is a serious balance issue. not to mention that if you are brand new to the game and skill 1 point into cloak, 3 into light suits, and 3 into scout suits you will barely be able to have a complete fit if you pop on a basic cloak. If you only skill 1 into scout suits and 1 into cloak, you won't be able to fit the cloak AT ALL. So new players getting merc'd by cloaks can't even attempt to emulate it until they hit closer to 2 or 3 mil SP. There are problems with it. I just don't know what the fix should be. Personally, I think a strong start is to reduce the 15% reduction to CPU/PG usage to 7% and then change the cloak skill itself to 7% reduction per skill point. It takes a lot less skill points to get that 5 in the cloak skill then it does to go to level 5 in the scout suit. That means at 3 in the scout suit and having a 4 or 5 in the cloak skill makes having a cloak, if you are newer, much more viable early on. Not to mention that I will be proto min scout soon and only use the basic cloak. I have no need for anything above that. There is no incentive for me to use skill points there. Lol. Guess what else helps bad players turn into decent players. Armor tanking. Want to take that away too? I have no idea about you, but the cloak is literally useless if not utilized correctly. I suppose you're a good player if you're having serious success...or was that something you wanted us to say.
Here is the thing. I don't want to say that I am a GREAT player but I can say that I am inconsistent. Maybe I'm underthinking my abilities during my better matches. I just think, at the minimum, new players should have easier access to emulate the higher level cloaking players. |
keno trader
Resheph Interstellar Strategy
Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 23:57:00 -
[560] - Quote
I understand your predicament. Dust is not forgiving for new players, and there doesn't seem to be a fix anywhere in the near future. :( |
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
109
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 01:50:00 -
[561] - Quote
Eko Sol wrote:Cloak helps bad players be decent players...period. There is no other piece of equipment, module, racial bonus, fit, etc. that does that. I don't know what needs to be done but something does need to be changed. I run the cloak myself and have some serious success. A success that I would not have had if I didn't run the cloak and ran normal scout. No, I am not a bad player but I am an average player that is now getting good to great player level results. There is a serious balance issue. not to mention that if you are brand new to the game and skill 1 point into cloak, 3 into light suits, and 3 into scout suits you will barely be able to have a complete fit if you pop on a basic cloak. If you only skill 1 into scout suits and 1 into cloak, you won't be able to fit the cloak AT ALL. So new players getting merc'd by cloaks can't even attempt to emulate it until they hit closer to 2 or 3 mil SP. There are problems with it. I just don't know what the fix should be. Personally, I think a strong start is to reduce the 15% reduction to CPU/PG usage to 7% and then change the cloak skill itself to 7% reduction per skill point. It takes a lot less skill points to get that 5 in the cloak skill then it does to go to level 5 in the scout suit. That means at 3 in the scout suit and having a 4 or 5 in the cloak skill makes having a cloak, if you are newer, much more viable early on. Not to mention that I will be proto min scout soon and only use the basic cloak. I have no need for anything above that. There is no incentive for me to use skill points there.
This walltext nugget of wisdom is pure bullsh!t.
Reality Check:
* Scouts are easily countered; anything and everything can kill you as a Scout.
* One misstep and you die; unless you armor tank, in which case you get one free misstep.
* If you up-armor your Scout, you will assuredly be picked to pieces by the Scouts who do not.
* Cloak is a gimmick; it does not render its user invincible; it too is easily countered.
If you want to hunt for something OP, first look for those things without viable counters (hint HAVs). Scouts are nasty and devious -- the clever ones probably kick your a** everyday -- but they are far from without counter.
@ IWS
If it pleases the court, check the logs. See that even the most Legendary of Scouts has fallen to guys running Militia gear. I know I do day in and day out. When was the last time a guy in Militia gear took out a Tank?
Bang?
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
109
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 02:28:00 -
[562] - Quote
Double Post, though in response to different point.
@ Scouts
Would it be too much if the cloak's reserve were drained when its user is hit by flux grenade?
I can think of any number of scenarios wherein this one change would make things more interesting, for Scout and non-Scout alike. I can think of no scenario wherein it would render neutered every Scout in an area (i.e. old Active Scanners). The measure would address specific QQ scenarios (as in IWS's point defense scenario) while creating for us a new set of challenges and Scout-hunting opportunities.
Please list for me the downsides as you see them. I'd like to explore counterpoints to this specific measure.
Edit:
This request has been forwarded via crosslink to the Barbershop.
Bastard input and opinions are warmly welcomed. o7
Bang?
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
1049
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 02:43:00 -
[563] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam.
I used to do this before cloaks too so.... I don't get your point. Its not my fault you are not all powerful, and that shouldn't be an option. Bring some back up next time while you hack.
Looking for the scout hangout?
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keno trader
Resheph Interstellar Strategy
Gallente Federation
29
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 02:47:00 -
[564] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Double Post, though in response to different point.
@ Scouts, Bastards, Brothers Would it be too much if the cloak's reserve were drained when its user is hit by flux grenade? I can think of any number of scenarios wherein this one change would make things more interesting, for Scout and non-Scout alike. I can think of no scenario wherein it would render neutered every Scout in an area (i.e. old Active Scanners). The measure would address specific QQ scenarios (as in IWS's point defense scenario) while creating for us a new set of challenges and Scout-hunting opportunities. Please list for me the downsides as you see them. I'd like to explore and discuss counterpoints to this specific measure. Edit: This request has been forwarded via crosslink to the Barbershop.Bastard input and opinions are warmly welcomed. o7
Uh..sure? But if a scout gets hit by a grenade, the he/she is doing something SERIOUSLY wrong.
Also...putting "bastard" in your post doesn't make it any funnier, cooler, or more civil. |
keno trader
Resheph Interstellar Strategy
Gallente Federation
30
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 02:49:00 -
[565] - Quote
Yea, correction. |
One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
1049
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 02:55:00 -
[566] - Quote
keno trader wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Double Post, though in response to different point.
@ Scouts, Bastards, Brothers Would it be too much if the cloak's reserve were drained when its user is hit by flux grenade? I can think of any number of scenarios wherein this one change would make things more interesting, for Scout and non-Scout alike. I can think of no scenario wherein it would render neutered every Scout in an area (i.e. old Active Scanners). The measure would address specific QQ scenarios (as in IWS's point defense scenario) while creating for us a new set of challenges and Scout-hunting opportunities. Please list for me the downsides as you see them. I'd like to explore and discuss counterpoints to this specific measure. Edit: This request has been forwarded via crosslink to the Barbershop.Bastard input and opinions are warmly welcomed. o7 Uh..sure? But if a scout gets hit by a grenade, the he/she is doing something SERIOUSLY wrong. Also...putting "bastard" in your post doesn't make it any funnier, cooler, or more civil.
He was referring to a certain group of scouts who go by the term Bastards. Think of it more like a pronoun. He meant no offense, and quite frankly, we enjoy our nickname.
Looking for the scout hangout?
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
110
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 02:58:00 -
[567] - Quote
keno trader wrote:
Also...putting "bastard" in your post doesn't make it any funnier, cooler, or more civil.
The label is directed at those who understand the label.
It is offered in show of respect and applies strictly to those listed on hallowed wall.
Bang?
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keno trader
Resheph Interstellar Strategy
Gallente Federation
30
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 02:58:00 -
[568] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:
He was referring to a certain group of scouts who go by the term Bastards. Think of it more like a pronoun. He meant no offense, and quite frankly, we enjoy our nickname.
In that case, whatever works for you. |
Alldin Kan
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1061
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 03:15:00 -
[569] - Quote
I just got here and all but...
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Off the table.
*Cloak Charge bar being externally altered by other players.
Why the **** should this not happen?
Uprising 1.8 - Invisible War
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
111
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Posted - 2014.04.12 03:18:00 -
[570] - Quote
Alldin Kan wrote:I just got here and all but... Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Off the table.
*Cloak Charge bar being externally altered by other players. Why the **** should this not happen?
By "Off the Table" I think he means cannot be implemented via HotFix.
Bang?
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LeGoose
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
229
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 03:34:00 -
[571] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Double Post, though in response to different point.
@ Scouts, Bastards, Brothers Would it be too much if the cloak's reserves were drained when its user is hit by flux grenade? I can think of any number of scenarios wherein this one change would make things more interesting, for Scout and non-Scout alike. I can think of no scenario wherein it would render neutered every Scout in an area (i.e. old Active Scanners). The measure would address specific QQ scenarios (as in IWS's point defense scenario) while creating for us a new set of challenges and Scout-hunting opportunities. Please list for me the downsides as you see them. I'd like to explore and discuss counterpoints to this specific measure. Edit: This request has been forwarded via crosslink to the Barbershop.Bastard input and opinions are warmly welcomed. o7
I think a this would be the place for an EMP grenade as LlastLlast said in the barbershop.
However, I think that a partial depletion of cloak reserves when hit with a flux grenade could be balanced until such a time that an EMP grenade is introduced. For the sake of example a flux grenade could deplete 25% of a cloaks total reserves.
This would potentially limit camping objectives as they will likely have had their cloaks activated for a prolonged period of time. It would also provide incentive to skill beyond the advanced cloak and actually use the proto cloak.
SAM-MIK Director
My Caldari scout can see your silly cloaked logi =ƒÖà
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1031
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 03:59:00 -
[572] - Quote
I like the idea of the flux clearing the cloak reserve as a counter mechanic, but it would destroy Cal & Mini scouts, while having almost no effect on the armour tanking shotgun Gal scouts that are causing all the complaints.
If it could be implemented so that it clears the cloak only, leaving shields, I'm all for it. Otherwise, separate grenade needed.
Knowledge is power
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Llast 326
An Arkhos
2850
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Posted - 2014.04.12 04:13:00 -
[573] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Double Post, though in response to different point.
@ Scouts, Bastards, Brothers Would it be too much if the cloak's reserves were drained when its user is hit by flux grenade? I can think of any number of scenarios wherein this one change would make things more interesting, for Scout and non-Scout alike. I can think of no scenario wherein it would render neutered and defenseless every Scout in an area (i.e. old Active Scanners). The measure would address specific QQ scenarios (as in IWS's point defense scenario) while creating for us a new set of challenges and Scout-hunting opportunities. Please list the downsides as you see them. I'd like to explore and discuss counterpoints to this specific measure. Edit: This request has been forwarded via crosslink to the Barbershop.Bastard input and opinions are warmly welcomed. o7
The problem with a Flux grenade hampering the cloak is that it disadvantages shield based scouts (and encourages brick tanking in a way) If it eliminates shields and cloak then the majority of HP is gone for the Min and Cal scouts.
I believe a better option would be to make a separate (new content *hurray*) grenade. This EMP grenade would affect Active modules shortening their timers.
Standard tier would do a specific amount of "damage" to active time of a module, eliminate basic cloak, severely limit a full Advanced cloak, and Active scanners, whie doing a small amount to Active Modules for Vehicles. Advanced level would eliminate Advanced levels in infantry Actives, and moderate amount to Vehicles. Proto tier EMPs would toast Infantry actives and impact (but not eliminate) Vehicle active time.
Boom fair to Armour and Shield scouts as well as versatile to other Active timers.
KRRROOOOOOM
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IgniteableAura
Ancient Exiles.
Dirt Nap Squad.
854
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Posted - 2014.04.12 04:23:00 -
[574] - Quote
I feel like I already stated that flux should only focus on shield.... Somewhere...... Anyways its bad news IMO to have nades that effecttoo many things. Ewar nades could disrupt cloak and fuzz up radar in a 20m radius. Obviously that's a fire from the hip explanation. But my thoughts.
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Lightning xVx
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Posted - 2014.04.12 04:45:00 -
[575] - Quote
What about how the Amarr Scout isn't that good as well on the E-War aspect? Why not give a slight buff to them? |
IgniteableAura
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Posted - 2014.04.12 04:55:00 -
[576] - Quote
Lightning xVx wrote:What about how the Amarr Scout isn't that good as well on the E-War aspect? Why not give a slight buff to them?
I think that's more due to lore. Amarr have no ewar capability. Bit I don't think that should stop ccp from creating a role that buffs the profile of nearby suits. Aka reduces their profile.
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Athena Sentinel
SOE Knights Templar
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Posted - 2014.04.12 05:50:00 -
[577] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Note: Edited the OP; the original can be found quoted below in other posts
*Minmatar scout for the time being should be buffed in fitting to match freedom the other scouts enjoy (imo minmatar should have a bit more than most other suits)
Which leads us to the scout bonus or scout fitting.
So proposed change would be to the scout bonus to cloaks fit. To reduce from 15% to a percent to five lower. I know that something like 13% will look odd on the skill sheet but it works out at max levels with numbers like 70-65-60 for every percent marked down.
So I would like to see this debate continue on what to do with this.
The next more common issue that is greatly affecting game play is how fast one decloaks.
But I also want to give attentive and hunter players the chance to drop on the scout or reflex on the scout and possibly come out on top.
I see no harm in fixing the glitch and possible the intended portion of the time to action decloak speed.
Cloak Charge
I would like to hear more talks about it such as 1 second cloak = 1.5 second charge or the like.
Stealthiness
Change remove cloak ability to dodge scanner: ... it allows dedicated hunters to beat lower cloaks and the like but the entire system needs a rewrite that absolutions are no longer the case (that being nearer a weaker scanner increases risk of detection for example) The number behind the stealthiness could be change but not the mechanics surrounding it. I would like to see more discussion on this as well.
So TL;DR
Off the table.
*Minmatar fitting underpar should be forwarded, let ccp figure the numbers out for that.
*Brick Tanking is off the table. Better suited for 1.9 discussion due to size and complexity of subject
On the table
*Cloak fitting is on the table still.
*Cloak decloak speed.
*Cloak charge rate internally
*Cloak electronic stealth value
Updated Op with change in discussion.
All of these changes are extreme. 1 sec cloak... No scan dodge for cloak.. Harder to fit.. Longer decloak speed.. Make Minn scout suit the best.. Give hunter players a chance, You mean a chance to turn there Combat Rifle on my 300HP. So then there is no chance for the scout.
Here is the Truth.. Listen Wolf, man, I have some options for you,
1. Cloak timers are fine: its not a true cloak and your not invisible. Limit the cloak timer (Ok) make it a true cloak! or it is NERF
2. Cloak and Scouts need to dodge scan or all the modules (scan precision, Dampeners, range enhancers) go back to the useless pile. (brick tank your tiny cloak!) Changes to the Scanner - I did suggest this, but scouts should be able to dodge scanners, It should be easier for a scout to dodge a scanner then a scanner to catch a scout, by far!. Scanner are more of a squad tool now, that is cool. But you suggest no stealth ability from scanners.. and that is a bad NERF. Scanner can catch everyone. There is more use for them as a orbital add for squad members to coordinate with.
3. Making the Cloak harder to fit for the Scout is not right, as it already fits nothing. Still its the second most acceptable NERF I can see. And would promote Brick/Tank scouts to opt out of wearing a cloak. I would suggest instead giving another suit the 5% bonus ability, maybe a assault suit (for the dedicated hunter you talk about).
4. Longer Decloak, this will not save non-cloakers, but will lead to less in-your-face-decloak and more positional attacks (similar to other MMO rogues - attacking from behind is the huge bonus to win, attack from the front is weak) This is the most acceptable NERF. I would suggest a very short timer nerf and a increased sound when decloaking. Similar to other MMO rogues, they decloak makes a sound other players can hear. Adding a sound effect and small decloaking delay - should give players a chance to turn it around. A skilled scout less so, but if he decloaks our of range or misses the other player would have a chance to know he was there, even if he was out of his direct view frame. (with sound effect).
5. Please don't make Minn scouts the OP scout? Min and Amarrr don't even like to fight like that. Cal invented the Stealth Bomber, Gal and Cal do the black ops attacks more.. Its a dirtier war. Min and Amarr have enough hate, there is no hiding an attack, the mins go in guns blazing and the Amarr go in with heavy armor.. Dust should reflect that? Or have more storyline to explain why Min is #1. (you just like the name Minja ) Me to, almost went Min for that but Cal had more ability to see targets
Nerfing the cloak Nerfs the Nano knifes again (so sad).
All those NERFS... Scouts will be the same as pre 1.8
I think I have offered some good solutions, not just rage or QQ.I am a bit angry the forum QQers rule CCP. I started off killing people with my cloak and shotgun like they were clueless. In this short time that has already started to change. Better tactics in game then just players running around solo in assault or logi, hacking and using auto spray rifles. Scouts were killed very easy, and heavies were not worth the isk cost to risk to solo.
The cloak has promoted players to work together, less solo hero runners in proto suits in pubs - solo they were at risk still!. It has limited the run in solo and hack in Logi and Assault suits with no teamwork at all! just run from thing to think for points. It has limited the run into a building blind (now you throw a grenade or wait for back-up or scout to check it out)... The cloak has greatly increased the game tactics.. Far more then anything else in 1.8.... Nerf the scout this heavy and they FOTM players will just all turn to heavy brick tanks until 1.9 and we can all be forced back int assault/heavy/logi. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2837
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Posted - 2014.04.12 10:37:00 -
[578] - Quote
Having any weapon affect cloak charge will have no impact on cloaks being 'OP' (in quotes because I don't necessarily agree that they are). If you're already attacking a cloaked scout, it really doesn't matter if they're cloaked or not - the problem is when you're not attacking them, don't know they're there and they're attacking you (still cloaked).
Athena above me has the right ideas. Most of all get the decloak-insta-shoot problem fixed and most cloak issues will disappear instantly. A slightly increased decloak time and slightly less total cloak charge and slower recharge are all acceptable nerfs but only if kept slight.
I also wouldn't be totally against raising the fittings requirements a little but I don't think this will achieve that much - it's certainly preferable to lowering scouts cloak fitting bonus, which would just bring us closer to the level of other suits (specifically logis) ability to cloak.
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14195
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Posted - 2014.04.12 11:46:00 -
[579] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Alldin Kan wrote:I just got here and all but... Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Off the table.
*Cloak Charge bar being externally altered by other players. Why the **** should this not happen? By "Off the Table" I think he means cannot be implemented via HotFix. Slow Drain of reserves when under fire has been suggested. Depletion of reserves when fluxed has been suggested.
That is what exactly I meant.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14195
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Posted - 2014.04.12 12:52:00 -
[580] - Quote
Athena Sentinel wrote:
...Stuff...
Nerfing the cloak Nerfs the Nano knifes again (so sad).
All those NERFS... Scouts will be the same as pre 1.8
You do realize the new slot layout and second equipment slot how immensely deadly a scout can still be if he decided to go oh say dual REs instead or RE and uplink... I mean I am sure that I am not the only pre-1.8 scout around here that had to suffer and get good with pre 1.78 scouts and being omni meant my scout suit was stuck at basic and yet I still managed on a normal match to break even on kdr. One equipment and nearly half of the module power type of nerf is what it will take to reduce the scout back to the old crooked self and that isn't happening. Combined with TTK adjustments AND new slot layouts; deleting cloaks (a highly popular option and opinion sadly) would not even remotely come close to nerfing a scout pre 1.8.
Cloak timers are not fine; I have been getting various complaints on several aspects including the prototype cloak at 80 seconds 40 to restart (which is 1 per 1) being a massive hamper in some situations and that it is far more efficient to run the basic 30 second cloak instead where recloak is at 10 (which is 1.5 seconds of cloak per 1 recharge). These complaints of course originate from users of the cloak of course the best way of solving these is getting variants in and tweaking around with it and playing with the numbers to make a short endurance combat cloak and a long endurance infiltration cloak.
Now as for the timer and why its more attractive to go after is because it is a smooth system; its not clunky cumbersome or bothersome. A forced delayed re-cloak as often suggested without additional UI work is absolutely terrible. Also I think going after the charge time is far better to purposed nerfs of zeroing out the charge at decloak forcing a 10-40 second wait to re-cloak. Also these interrupt behaviors I doubt cannot be incorporated via hotfix.
As for scanners there are other issues clouding this argument up mostly the scanners being buggy; the bottom line the scan system is far far far too binary. Needs to gain depth and dynamics. I would like to see sensors shift to a time vs strength based one instead of the current black or white system. For now if you really want to dodge all scanners you need to not only fit a cloak but damps as well with the cloak. This is something quite a few scouts I am running to on the field are NOT doing; but like I said scanners are suffering from a few issues that is muddling up the early results of the dampener effect on the cloak itself. Also who said scouts must be stealthy? There are other classes that stealth up as a defense.
As for the noise level and decloak speed I highly doubt its going to stop the cloak complaints. True fixing the bug will be nice but it will do little to stop the complaints; proof in point I recently got hate mail as a scout shotgunning a player in the back and he accused me of being associated with the likes of a cloaky donkey dog child. The problem is; this scout fit has no cloak installed but instead scan amps and damps which is nearly as effective as a cloak at times. Heck the whole shinobi event taught me anything over the course of 70+ knife kills people ARE BLIND. I should not be able to run in your front 30 degree a good 10-20 feet and stab you in the face without a shot in your response to me but I did it anyways for some of my kills.
Caldari DID NOT INVENT STEALTH BOMBERS; Duvolle Labs from the Gallente Federation did after a rival company, Cerodon, lost out the assault frigate bid to Rhoden Yards/Allotek Industries with their modified Tristans which where far too big for the job and where almost classed as a destroyer. Duvolle bought them all at bargain and converted the former drone bays into torpedo bays and the nemesis was met with high amounts of praise for the project leader that saved the company on what might have been a rather highly expensive research project. Other empires followed suit and matched the roles with their own variants. Caldari invented Electronic Attack Ships and were forced by Concord Mandate to share the technology with the other empires despite trying to claim it as a similar departure as their scorpion class battleship.
Also Nano Knife?
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Tek Hound
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
243
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Posted - 2014.04.12 13:11:00 -
[581] - Quote
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14195
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Posted - 2014.04.12 13:25:00 -
[582] - Quote
And this is where a shotgun or mass driver becomes useful right about now.
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Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
1666
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Posted - 2014.04.12 18:08:00 -
[583] - Quote
Brokerib wrote:I like the idea of the flux clearing the cloak reserve as a counter mechanic, but it would destroy Cal & Mini scouts, while having almost no effect on the armour tanking shotgun Gal scouts that are causing all the complaints.
If it could be implemented so that it clears the cloak only, leaving shields, I'm all for it. Otherwise, separate grenade needed.
I agree with this...
As long as the flux field only damaged the cloak (if it was active), and left shields intact I think this would work. But I agree a better solution is a separate EMP grenade as mentioned by Broke and Llast.
I'd rather CCP tune the time to fire after switching weapons before they add any additional balance factors to the cloak. Removing the ability to fire while cloaked I am hoping would solve a lot of issues with the cloak as currently used.
Double posting like a Kaiser.
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Athena Sentinel
SOE Knights Templar
248
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Posted - 2014.04.12 18:10:00 -
[584] - Quote
Athena Sentinel wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Note: Edited the OP; the original can be found quoted below in other posts
*Minmatar scout for the time being should be buffed in fitting to match freedom the other scouts enjoy (imo minmatar should have a bit more than most other suits)
Which leads us to the scout bonus or scout fitting.
So proposed change would be to the scout bonus to cloaks fit. To reduce from 15% to a percent to five lower. I know that something like 13% will look odd on the skill sheet but it works out at max levels with numbers like 70-65-60 for every percent marked down.
So I would like to see this debate continue on what to do with this.
The next more common issue that is greatly affecting game play is how fast one decloaks.
But I also want to give attentive and hunter players the chance to drop on the scout or reflex on the scout and possibly come out on top.
I see no harm in fixing the glitch and possible the intended portion of the time to action decloak speed.
Cloak Charge
I would like to hear more talks about it such as 1 second cloak = 1.5 second charge or the like.
Stealthiness
Change remove cloak ability to dodge scanner: ... it allows dedicated hunters to beat lower cloaks and the like but the entire system needs a rewrite that absolutions are no longer the case (that being nearer a weaker scanner increases risk of detection for example) The number behind the stealthiness could be change but not the mechanics surrounding it. I would like to see more discussion on this as well.
So TL;DR
Updated Op with change in discussion. All of these changes are extreme. 1 sec cloak... No scan dodge for cloak.. Harder to fit.. Longer decloak speed.. Make Minn scout suit the best.. Give hunter players a chance, You mean a chance to turn there Combat Rifle on my 300HP. So then there is no chance for the scout. Here is the Truth.. Listen Wolf, man, I have some options for you, 1. Cloak timers are fine: its not a true cloak and your not invisible. Limit the cloak timer (Ok) make it a true cloak! or it is NERF 2. Cloak and Scouts need to dodge scan or all the modules (scan precision, Dampeners, range enhancers) go back to the useless pile. (brick tank your tiny cloak!) Changes to the Scanner - I did suggest this, but scouts should be able to dodge scanners, It should be easier for a scout to dodge a scanner then a scanner to catch a scout, by far!. Scanner are more of a squad tool now, that is cool. But you suggest no stealth ability from scanners.. and that is a bad NERF. Scanner can catch everyone. There is more use for them as a orbital aid for squad members to coordinate with. 3. Making the Cloak harder to fit for the Scout is not right, as it already fits nothing. Still its the second most acceptable NERF I can see. And would promote Brick/Tank scouts to opt out of wearing a cloak. I would suggest instead giving another suit the 5% bonus ability, maybe a assault suit (for the dedicated hunter you talk about). 4. Longer Decloak, this will not save non-cloakers, but will lead to less in-your-face-decloak and more positional attacks (similar to other MMO rogues - attacking from behind is the huge bonus to win, attack from the front is weak) This is the most acceptable NERF. I would suggest a very short timer nerf and a increased sound when decloaking. Similar to other MMO rogues, they decloak makes a sound other players can hear. Adding a sound effect and small decloaking delay - should give players a chance to turn it around. A skilled scout less so, but if he decloaks our of range or misses the other player would have a chance to know he was there, even if he was out of his direct view frame. (with sound effect). 5. Please don't make Minn scouts the OP scout? Min and Amarrr don't even like to fight like that. Cal invented the Stealth Bomber, Gal and Cal do the black ops attacks more.. Its a dirtier war. Min and Amarr have enough hate, there is no hiding an attack, the mins go in guns blazing and the Amarr go in with heavy armor.. Dust should reflect that? Or have more storyline to explain why Min is #1. (you just like the name Minja ) Me to, almost went Min for that but Cal had more ability to see targets Nerfing the cloak Nerfs the Nano knifes again (so sad). All those NERFS... Scouts will be the same as pre 1.8 I think I have offered some good solutions, not just rage or QQ.I am a bit angry the forum QQers rule CCP. I started off killing people with my cloak and shotgun like they were clueless. In this short time that has already started to change. Better tactics in game then just players running around solo in assault or logi, hacking and using auto spray rifles. Scouts were killed very easy, and heavies were not worth the isk cost to risk to solo. The cloak has promoted players to work together, less solo hero runners in proto suits in pubs - solo they were at risk still!. It has limited the run in solo and hack in Logi and Assault suits with no teamwork at all! just run from thing to think for points. It has limited the run into a building blind (now you throw a grenade or wait for back-up or scout to check it out)... The cloak has greatly increased the game tactics.. Far more then anything else in 1.8.... Nerf the scout this heavy and they FOTM players will just all turn to heavy brick tanks until 1.9 and we can all be forced back int assault/heavy/logi.
Iron Wolf Saber - I hope you comment back. |
One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
1055
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Posted - 2014.04.12 18:23:00 -
[585] - Quote
For the most part, I think we are getting ahead of the game here in terms of coming up with cloak adjustments before the bugs and kinks are worked out. Cloaks are not entirely working as intended, and we should really hope CCP focuses on making those fixes before even considering the discussion.
At this point, we are all just taking shots in the dark as to how cloaks will work post bug fixes. Quite frankly, I think that adjusting the decloak issue, whether it be faster decloak or inability to use a weapon until fully decloaked, and fixing tacnet will go a long ways towards fixing any perceived problems.
Looking for the scout hangout?
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keno trader
Resheph Interstellar Strategy
Gallente Federation
36
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Posted - 2014.04.12 19:00:00 -
[586] - Quote
If CCP wastes another patch fixing things, that would seriously be indicative of where this game is going --> nowhere.
We need all the content out before balancing.
1.8 --- Still getting spawntrapped by boxes.
1.8 --- Smart deployment = letting a 2 year old handle spawns.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14205
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Posted - 2014.04.12 21:36:00 -
[587] - Quote
Athena Sentinel wrote:
Iron Wolf Saber - I hope you comment back.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2048231#post2048231
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14205
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Posted - 2014.04.12 21:37:00 -
[588] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:For the most part, I think we are getting ahead of the game here in terms of coming up with cloak adjustments before the bugs and kinks are worked out. Cloaks are not entirely working as intended, and we should really hope CCP focuses on making those fixes before even considering the discussion.
At this point, we are all just taking shots in the dark as to how cloaks will work post bug fixes. Quite frankly, I think that adjusting the decloak issue, whether it be faster decloak or inability to use a weapon until fully decloaked, and fixing tacnet will go a long ways towards fixing any perceived problems.
Thing is though we can easily simulate the scenarios where cloaks are working as they should. So by definition none of the problems plaguing the cloak are 'game breaking'
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
146
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Posted - 2014.04.12 22:05:00 -
[589] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Thing is though we can easily simulate the scenarios where cloaks are working as they should. So by definition none of the problems plaguing the cloak are 'game breaking'
So ...
In Category A, we have clearly broken things like AV, Assault Bonuses, Tanks, etc.
In Category B, we have make-believe broken things, namely Cloak.
Any chance CCP might focus on fixing what's clearly broken?
Bang?
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14211
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Posted - 2014.04.12 22:29:00 -
[590] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Thing is though we can easily simulate the scenarios where cloaks are working as they should. So by definition none of the problems plaguing the cloak are 'game breaking'
So ... In Category A, we have broken things like AV, Tanks, Assault Bonuses, etc. In Category B, we have make-believe broken things, namely Cloak.
More like
Category A - A problem that is so consistently broken that intended game play is unfathomable at the time until corrected.
Previously Shotgun hit detection was one such topic of constant discussion that falls into this category. Problems in this category are typically unopposed to get fixed by the community. Currently Plasma Cannons are in this category considering there is an 'explosive occlusion problem that may be attributed to the serious underperformance of the weapon'. While it may be possible to get the 'as intended hit' every so often its so rare that most of us would chock it up to luck or poor fittings on the sob just nailed. The explosive occlusion problem is also hiding how OP a grenade or flux can be BUT without the effects of the fix being known pre-emptively trying to fix those is a useless effort.
Category B - A problem that can be simulated and at times observed to be in proper working order. This is typically the more difficult ones to fix because people from all angels disagree if its working or not. This is the majority of the current balance issues.
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IgniteableAura
Ancient Exiles.
Dirt Nap Squad.
870
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Posted - 2014.04.13 05:00:00 -
[591] - Quote
Iws you have confused me. What is currently working as intended on the cloak but needs balance?
But if things like flux start to drain cloak, along with weapons. I see a lot fewer people running them. Cloaks make my life a little easier, but if they get to be "more trouble", I will gladly use that second equipment slot for something that has more tangible uses.
Currently I only use cloak for its damp bonus and hacking nonobjective points.
Secondly what changes were made that made all these hit detection issues crop up. Chromosome never had these issues....or it was much more rare. I have hit detection issues with every weapon I utilize
Considering it sounds like explosions are the issue how is the mass driver not effected? Or was that the reason for its DMG buff?
The truth is these occlusion issues have been cropping up since last November. Even remotes are " less effective "
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2757
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Posted - 2014.04.13 05:15:00 -
[592] - Quote
IgniteableAura wrote:Iws you have confused me. What is currently working as intended on the cloak but needs balance?
But if things like flux start to drain cloak, along with weapons. I see a lot fewer people running them. Cloaks make my life a little easier, but if they get to be "more trouble", I will gladly use that second equipment slot for something that has more tangible uses.
Currently I only use cloak for its damp bonus and hacking nonobjective points.
Secondly what changes were made that made all these hit detection issues crop up. Chromosome never had these issues....or it was much more rare. I have hit detection issues with every weapon I utilize
Considering it sounds like explosions are the issue how is the mass driver not effected? Or was that the reason for its DMG buff?
The truth is these occlusion issues have been cropping up since last November. Even remotes are " less effective "
You're in AE, aura? This is no shot at AE but wow man....thought we go back like drive-ins and car seats :(
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
159
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Posted - 2014.04.13 15:12:00 -
[593] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
You're in AE, aura? This is no shot at AE but wow man....thought we go back like drive-ins and car seats :(
OT Alert
Iggy migrated alongside a handful of standing PHI as part of a group decision. There aren't many of us left, but those who remain wanted to pew-pew alongside guys we know. RND was the first option considered; we go way back like Megatron. OH and a couple RoFL corps were also tabled. AE had more former PHI than any other corp, so we chose AE.
Bang?
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
1963
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Posted - 2014.04.13 15:25:00 -
[594] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Thing is though we can easily simulate the scenarios where cloaks are working as they should. So by definition none of the problems plaguing the cloak are 'game breaking'
So ... In Category A, we have broken things like AV, Tanks, Assault Bonuses, etc. In Category B, we have make-believe broken things, namely Cloak. More like Category A - A problem that is so consistently broken that intended game play is unfathomable at the time until corrected. Previously Shotgun hit detection was one such topic of constant discussion that falls into this category. Problems in this category are typically unopposed to get fixed by the community. Currently Plasma Cannons are in this category considering there is an 'explosive occlusion problem that may be attributed to the serious underperformance of the weapon'. While it may be possible to get the 'as intended hit' every so often its so rare that most of us would chock it up to luck or poor fittings on the sob just nailed. The explosive occlusion problem is also hiding how OP a grenade or flux can be BUT without the effects of the fix being known pre-emptively trying to fix those is a useless effort. Category B - A problem that can be simulated and at times observed to be in proper working order. This is typically the more difficult ones to fix because people from all angels disagree if its working or not. This is the majority of the current balance issues.
This is news to me. Wasn't aware that there still was an occlusion problem. I thought the explosion occlusion problem was solved with the mass driver fix. Is different code handling explosions on different weapons?
I support SP rollover.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
2765
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Posted - 2014.04.13 16:05:00 -
[595] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
You're in AE, aura? This is no shot at AE but wow man....thought we go back like drive-ins and car seats :(
OT AlertIggy migrated alongside a handful of standing PHI as part of a group decision. There aren't many of us left, but those who remain wanted to pew-pew alongside guys we know. RND was the first option considered; we go way back like Megatron. OH and a couple RoFL corps were also tabled. AE had more former PHI than any other corp, so we chose AE.
Man, we go back further than Megatron. Coming into dust, if there was no RND, PHI would have been my destination, without thinking.
weRideNDie2getha since 2010
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Seymor Krelborn
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1859
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Posted - 2014.04.13 16:11:00 -
[596] - Quote
I stopped reading at the "I feel the brick tank issue is bigger" statement.
once again you prove with your own words you don't belong on the cpm....
I don't care how bicked your tank is, right now a cloaked scout with one well placed shotty burst to the head nullifies that issue and there is no counter to it....
cpm1 cant come soon enough and I will be praying to my golden cow you aren't on it.....
this game makes me sad....
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
1062
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 19:30:00 -
[597] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:One Eyed King wrote:For the most part, I think we are getting ahead of the game here in terms of coming up with cloak adjustments before the bugs and kinks are worked out. Cloaks are not entirely working as intended, and we should really hope CCP focuses on making those fixes before even considering the discussion.
At this point, we are all just taking shots in the dark as to how cloaks will work post bug fixes. Quite frankly, I think that adjusting the decloak issue, whether it be faster decloak or inability to use a weapon until fully decloaked, and fixing tacnet will go a long ways towards fixing any perceived problems.
Thing is though we can easily simulate the scenarios where cloaks are working as they should. So by definition none of the problems plaguing the cloak are 'game breaking'
It also appears that a lot of people are simulating ways in which the cloak is still broken, i.e. shotgunning while still visibly concealed. Since this seems to be a major concern for many of those who claim the cloak is broken or OP, especially given that CCP directly stated that those that are cloaked will not be able to fire.
I don't trust that enough of the community will appreciate that fixing this issue will go a long ways towards alleviating those instances in which they see the cloak, in which case they normally request knee jerk reactions such as eliminating the cloak entirely.
I also don't trust that those who are currently abusing the cloak have a vested interest in the scout role or playstyle such that they could care less if a nuclear nerf is dropped on the suit, again.
By truly fixing the issues first, particularly the decloaking issue, you will find fewer people abusing it and fewer people raging at the abuse, and we can move towards a better place than simply theorycrafting and hoping it all works out.
I am tired of the nerf-buff-nerf cycle.
Looking for the scout hangout?
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14224
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 01:55:00 -
[598] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:One Eyed King wrote:For the most part, I think we are getting ahead of the game here in terms of coming up with cloak adjustments before the bugs and kinks are worked out. Cloaks are not entirely working as intended, and we should really hope CCP focuses on making those fixes before even considering the discussion.
At this point, we are all just taking shots in the dark as to how cloaks will work post bug fixes. Quite frankly, I think that adjusting the decloak issue, whether it be faster decloak or inability to use a weapon until fully decloaked, and fixing tacnet will go a long ways towards fixing any perceived problems.
Thing is though we can easily simulate the scenarios where cloaks are working as they should. So by definition none of the problems plaguing the cloak are 'game breaking' It also appears that a lot of people are simulating ways in which the cloak is still broken, i.e. shotgunning while still visibly concealed. Since this seems to be a major concern for many of those who claim the cloak is broken or OP, especially given that CCP directly stated that those that are cloaked will not be able to fire. I don't trust that enough of the community will appreciate that fixing this issue will go a long ways towards alleviating those instances in which they see the cloak as OP, in which case they normally request knee jerk reactions such as eliminating the cloak entirely. I also don't trust that those who are currently abusing the cloak have a vested interest in the scout role or playstyle such that they could care less if a nuclear nerf is dropped on the suit, again. By truly fixing the issues first, particularly the decloaking issue, you will find fewer people abusing it and fewer people raging at the abuse, and we can move towards a better place than simply theorycrafting and hoping it all works out. I am tired of the nerf-buff-nerf cycle.
I am as well but its a necessary evil; what we should strive for is tweak level adjustments instead of nuke level adjustments.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14224
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 01:56:00 -
[599] - Quote
Seymor Krelborn wrote:I stopped reading at the "I feel the brick tank issue is bigger" statement. once again you prove with your own words you don't belong on the cpm.... I don't care how bicked your tank is, right now a cloaked scout with one well placed shotty burst to the head nullifies that issue and there is no counter to it.... cpm1 cant come soon enough and I will be praying to my golden cow you aren't on it.....
I can't trust a community that doesn't read the whole conversation.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14228
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 01:59:00 -
[600] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Thing is though we can easily simulate the scenarios where cloaks are working as they should. So by definition none of the problems plaguing the cloak are 'game breaking'
So ... In Category A, we have broken things like AV, Tanks, Assault Bonuses, etc. In Category B, we have make-believe broken things, namely Cloak. More like Category A - A problem that is so consistently broken that intended game play is unfathomable at the time until corrected. Previously Shotgun hit detection was one such topic of constant discussion that falls into this category. Problems in this category are typically unopposed to get fixed by the community. Currently Plasma Cannons are in this category considering there is an 'explosive occlusion problem that may be attributed to the serious underperformance of the weapon'. While it may be possible to get the 'as intended hit' every so often its so rare that most of us would chock it up to luck or poor fittings on the sob just nailed. The explosive occlusion problem is also hiding how OP a grenade or flux can be BUT without the effects of the fix being known pre-emptively trying to fix those is a useless effort. Category B - A problem that can be simulated and at times observed to be in proper working order. This is typically the more difficult ones to fix because people from all angels disagree if its working or not. This is the majority of the current balance issues. This is news to me. Wasn't aware that there still was an occlusion problem. I thought the explosion occlusion problem was solved with the mass driver fix. Is different code handling explosions on different weapons?
All explosives are seemingly still subject to it. I don't know the logic that determines if an explosion hits you or not but its still been observed that a 2 inch hill can provide sufficient cover for equipment and even infantry at times from some of your larger explosive weapons. Which is rather odd you think the shorter ranged explosives would suffer the most.
Is explosive occlusion necessary? Yes prevents explosives from killing you while you're hiding behind walls. Last thing we need is wall shoot throughs being a bit inconsistent and not a well advertised/expected mechanic in the game.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Seymor Krelborn
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1901
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 02:29:00 -
[601] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Seymor Krelborn wrote:I stopped reading at the "I feel the brick tank issue is bigger" statement. once again you prove with your own words you don't belong on the cpm.... I don't care how bicked your tank is, right now a cloaked scout with one well placed shotty burst to the head nullifies that issue and there is no counter to it.... cpm1 cant come soon enough and I will be praying to my golden cow you aren't on it..... I can't trust a community that doesn't read the whole conversation.
I cant trust you... guess we are even then...
this game makes me sad....
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Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1586
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 02:36:00 -
[602] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Seymor Krelborn wrote:I stopped reading at the "I feel the brick tank issue is bigger" statement. once again you prove with your own words you don't belong on the cpm.... I don't care how bicked your tank is, right now a cloaked scout with one well placed shotty burst to the head nullifies that issue and there is no counter to it.... cpm1 cant come soon enough and I will be praying to my golden cow you aren't on it..... I can't trust a Game Developer community that doesn't read the whole conversation.
fixed
half a year wasted on scanners and cloaks
and even more time wasted to balance them
the conversation was ignored
the conversation was give us MORE maps
the conversation was give us MORE game modes
the sad part?
easy to balance maps and modes are preferable to two unbalanced toys
real tired of zero new content game modes and haveing ambush, skirmish , single letter skirmish, ambush, skirmish, single letter skirmish, ambush, skirmish, single letter skirmish ......MEH!!
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14232
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 03:30:00 -
[603] - Quote
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Seymor Krelborn wrote:I stopped reading at the "I feel the brick tank issue is bigger" statement. once again you prove with your own words you don't belong on the cpm.... I don't care how bicked your tank is, right now a cloaked scout with one well placed shotty burst to the head nullifies that issue and there is no counter to it.... cpm1 cant come soon enough and I will be praying to my golden cow you aren't on it..... I can't trust a Game Developer community that doesn't read the whole conversation. fixed half a year wasted on scanners and cloaks and even more time wasted to balance them the conversation was ignored the conversation was give us MORE maps the conversation was give us MORE game modes the sad part? easy to balance maps and modes are preferable to two unbalanced toys real tired of zero new content game modes and haveing ambush, skirmish , single letter skirmish, ambush, skirmish, single letter skirmish, ambush, skirmish, single letter skirmish ......MEH!!
Well you're at a constant advantage over me because I know reasons why as t things are not getting done and yet I cannot share.
Just working on what could change; letting CCP figure out when they can change other things at their best convenience. and no yelling at ccp more doesn't make them go any faster if anything it shuts them up even more.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1587
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 03:59:00 -
[604] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Seymor Krelborn wrote:I stopped reading at the "I feel the brick tank issue is bigger" statement. once again you prove with your own words you don't belong on the cpm.... I don't care how bicked your tank is, right now a cloaked scout with one well placed shotty burst to the head nullifies that issue and there is no counter to it.... cpm1 cant come soon enough and I will be praying to my golden cow you aren't on it..... I can't trust a Game Developer community that doesn't read the whole conversation. fixed half a year wasted on scanners and cloaks and even more time wasted to balance them the conversation was ignored the conversation was give us MORE maps the conversation was give us MORE game modes the sad part? easy to balance maps and modes are preferable to two unbalanced toys real tired of zero new content game modes and haveing ambush, skirmish , single letter skirmish, ambush, skirmish, single letter skirmish, ambush, skirmish, single letter skirmish ......MEH!! Well you're at a constant advantage over me because I know reasons why as t things are not getting done and yet I cannot share. Just working on what could change; letting CCP figure out when they can change other things at their best convenience. and no yelling at ccp more doesn't make them go any faster if anything it shuts them up even more.
First mistake was using Unreal Engine without proper Middleware tools comprehension by CCP Shanghai
Second mistake was lack of proper workflow priorities in Dust 514 game development
Third mistake was instead of asking Sony for help they instead trusted the Dust 514 EP to fix everything by tossing everything at the EP instead of proper delegation of Game Development workflow priorities
I hope things are improving .
I.E. CCP mentions many times that DEV blogs include last minute items indicating lack of comunication between Development areas.
Hey CCP get a PS4 client
Planetside 2 in June on PS4
Dust Deserters Alliance
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Doshneil Antaro
Dem Durrty Boyz
Dirt Nap Squad.
273
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 04:47:00 -
[605] - Quote
Well after playing the patch for some time, I wanted to throw in what I perceive to be the true unbalance the claoks have brought. let's start with the fact it requires one of the twenty racial suits to even detect some of the cloaked players.
Heavies are great at mowing down medium suits. the scout is perfect to destroy the heavy. Than you have the mediums, suits. They cannot use enough modules to hardly see an uncloaked scout let alone one that is cloaked. Medium suits should be the scout killer but to do so they need an increase to percision. The issue is that as it stands, cloaks make it harder to see (or not at all if your color blind like me), as well as grant you full immunity to the radar. This behavour is allowing cloaked scouts to run around without the need or want to use teamwork.
What this boils down to is that cloaks need a counter, and the mediums need a role. Remove the extra dampening from cloaks, and increase passives as mentioned, and we will at least have some rock paper scissors.
Sage /thread
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iliel
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Dirt Nap Squad.
30
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 05:13:00 -
[606] - Quote
Doshneil Antaro wrote:Well after playing the patch for some time, I wanted to throw in what I perceive to be the true unbalance the claoks have brought. let's start with the fact it requires one of the twenty racial suits to even detect some of the cloaked players.
Heavies are great at mowing down medium suits. the scout is perfect to destroy the heavy. Than you have the mediums, suits. They cannot use enough modules to hardly see an uncloaked scout let alone one that is cloaked. Medium suits should be the scout killer but to do so they need an increase to percision. The issue is that as it stands, cloaks make it harder to see (or not at all if your color blind like me), as well as grant you full immunity to the radar. This behavour is allowing cloaked scouts to run around without the need or want to use teamwork.
What this boils down to is that cloaks need a counter, and the mediums need a role. Remove the extra dampening from cloaks, and increase passives as mentioned, and we will at least have some rock paper scissors.
Increasing Medium passives would simply nullify the scouts' role. Cloaks are novelties not necessities. I for one would use a medium if it scanned well passively.
The problem, as the CPM has suggested, has to do with brick-tanked scouts. For this have wearing a cloak diminish a percentage of armor (say 50/30/20). Simple fix. Will mean that cloaked scouts have to one-shot anyone to win a battle. Perhaps a bit of a nerf to adv. and proto shotguns would also prevent more QQing. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2854
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 07:23:00 -
[607] - Quote
iliel wrote:Will mean that cloaked scouts have to one-shot anyone to win a battle. Perhaps a bit of a nerf to adv. and proto shotguns would also prevent more QQing.
Anyone who thinks the shotgun needs nerfing even just a little needs to actually try using one. You can only one-shot the weakest of suits and even then there are all manner of hit-detection and missing damage bugs every single patch.
Cloaked scouts should not be shooting, period. The shotgun is certainly not a problem. It's certainly not gotten better since 1.7 and if anything the change to its proficiency was a big nerf.
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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Marc Rime
373
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Posted - 2014.04.14 10:54:00 -
[608] - Quote
I've posted some of this before in other threads (maybe others have too):
- The fitting requirements of the cloak should be lowered to what lvl5 scout skill makes them. Duration should be cut by a factor of 5. The scout skill should then increase duration by 100% per level. This would allow everyone to use a cloak, but scouts could use it far more efficiently.
- The cloak shimmer should become more visible for a few seconds after taking damage. This is to make up for the fact that the muzzle flash obscures the cloak shimmer.
- *IF* there is to be a firing-delay after decloaking (as some are suggesting), it should only be when the cloaker has not recently taken damage - otherwise it will become impossible to fight back when spotted.
- Possibly the shimmer should increase when within 10-15 metres of the cloaker. That would take care of the, apparently, most common complaint since the target would have a better chance of seeing cloakers within shotgun range - the cloak would still work as before against more distant enemies (which, IMO, is it's biggest advantage anyway ;)).
- The shimmer may have to be adjusted for certain planets lighting conditions and when set against certain backgrounds.
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BigStuarty
Endless Hatred
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
11
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Posted - 2014.04.14 11:43:00 -
[609] - Quote
I really do think my suggestion would be a fair trafe off...
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:BigStuarty wrote:The cloak is the issue, invisability is truly power in your hands. Im ok with it, at least a concept to be explored. Just the mechanics are broken ie the decloaking/shoot issue. Also the construct. The module should burn out say give the scout 2 mins total used as he wishes cloaking time then find a supply deot or we will find you. Instaed of repeated cloak allowance after cooldown. stops camping and trolling and encourages the scout to be more thoughtful and tactical. So say in a game , how many cycles should be allowed ??? Edit : I.E. how many times should one be allowed to activate during a game ?
one cycle ... module then becomes locked until death or suit change |
Th3 Hunt3d
Eyniletti Rangers
Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 13:26:00 -
[610] - Quote
What CCP could have done was put the cloak in the light weapon category, and I know that sounds strange but I will explain;
1. First of all, that would immediately take care of the cloak & shotgun problem plus any other scout slayer problem.
2. The scout would still have their sidearm slot, which in my opinion sidearms are a pretty viable way of defending yourself if you are spotted whilst hacking ( which is the main role of the scout, they are not at all meant to be slayers)
3. This would free up the scouts second equipment slot, which would promote a more tactical and support playstyle.
This small change would clear up all of the problems that are currently wreaking havoc with the cloak. By the way, this is all coming from a lvl 5 proto minja who has had plenty of experience with both scouting and cloaking. |
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GLOBAL RAGE
Consolidated Dust
40
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Posted - 2014.04.14 13:39:00 -
[611] - Quote
Flanked514 100% of the time?
Charlie Foxtrot |
NAV HIV
The Generals
General Tso's Alliance
1445
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 13:55:00 -
[612] - Quote
Cloak Charge
Overall this doesn't seem hotfix able when you involve damage prospects. Maybe for 1.9 but for now I don't see it being a feasible trait to add without a ptch.
What can change is the rate of recharge and consumption.
There isn't much discussion about it but a good cloaker can manage their chargers for a very long time and I am afraid to bring any changes to this outside of new variants but I would like to hear more talks about it such as 1 second cloak = 1.5 second charge or the like.
There could be minor changes to this without making it useless. 1 Sec Cloak = 1.5 seconds of recharge... Well that's going to get a non-Birck tanked scout killed very quickly. It takes a few seconds at least to get from one cover to the other. To move from objective to objective... Plus few seconds to hack an objective... i'm not sure if i understood the proposal correctly, But let's just say it takes me 40 seconds to move to an objective and hack it, and another 20 seconds to move away from it (before the red dots respond to it) 60 seconds of cloaked time... So my Recharge rate for that cloaking would be 90 seconds?! A minute and half ?! the game lasts for about 15-20 minutes and every cloaked scout would spend more than half of it somewhere else just sitting and doing nothing...
- 1 sec cloak - 1.5 seconds recharge would extremly stupid (if that's the proper explanation)
- it'd be wiser to spec into brick tanked scout and kill everything without cloaking
- The problem isn't the cloak recharge rate, problem is being able to decloak by switching weapons. The cloaking tool should be disabled by using the equipment. it would give the non cloaked person time to react, If they don't then that's not the cloaked scouts fault. The scout would have to measure the time properly and decide when to engage in a firefight
Stealthiness
Cloaks are considered very powerful stealth tools able to dodge a number of scans, while scanners await their fix there is now the debate should cloaks provide any stealthing? Overall I am fine with it as is as it allows dedicated hunters to beat lower cloaks and the like but the entire system needs a rewrite that absolutions are no longer the case (that being nearer a weaker scanner increases risk of detection for example) The number behind the stealthiness could be change but not the mechanics surrounding it. I would like to see more discussion on this as well.
- I have been Scanned in Scout ck0 using advanced cloak and Complex dampener by a Gal Logi... So i don't see what the problem is. As i've mentioned before... If Logis start using their suits properly then all the QQ could be solved. Logis who are smart and don't care about brick tanking a logi suit, they are doing just fine
Level 5 on profile dampening and Complex Dampener and for the First time i've seen "You have been Scanned" while i was cloaked...
i have my Gal Logi friends and other logi friends who switched their modules and hunting Scouts with ease... It pushes a scout to use Ewar modules to avoid all these... May be we should make a Thread for how to Fit A Logi suit... if people decide to come out of their Extender/Plate shells, they'd be amazed by what can be achieved... |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
201
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Posted - 2014.04.14 15:01:00 -
[613] - Quote
Th3 Hunt3d wrote:What CCP could have done was put the cloak in the light weapon category, and I know that sounds strange but I will explain;
1. First of all, that would immediately take care of the cloak & shotgun problem plus any other scout slayer problem.
2. The scout would still have their sidearm slot, which in my opinion sidearms are a pretty viable way of defending yourself if you are spotted whilst hacking ( which is the main role of the scout, they are not at all meant to be slayers)
3. This would free up the scouts second equipment slot, which would promote a more tactical and support playstyle.
This small change would clear up all of the problems that are currently wreaking havoc with the cloak. By the way, this is all coming from a lvl 5 proto minja who has had plenty of experience with both scouting and cloaking.
Your "small change" doesn't sound a 'bit strange; it sounds quite familiar. The Scout Community tarred and feathered one of its own for proposing the same. He has fully recovered, but the idea is still bad.
Here's a thought ...
How 'bout we adjust cloak as needed instead of crippling an entire class?
Bang?
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Master Smurf
Nos Nothi
349
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:24:00 -
[614] - Quote
BigStuarty wrote:I really do think my suggestion would be a fair trafe off... Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:BigStuarty wrote:The cloak is the issue, invisability is truly power in your hands. Im ok with it, at least a concept to be explored. Just the mechanics are broken ie the decloaking/shoot issue. Also the construct. The module should burn out say give the scout 2 mins total used as he wishes cloaking time then find a supply deot or we will find you. Instaed of repeated cloak allowance after cooldown. stops camping and trolling and encourages the scout to be more thoughtful and tactical. So say in a game , how many cycles should be allowed ??? Edit : I.E. how many times should one be allowed to activate during a game ? one cycle ... module then becomes locked until death or suit change
Are you going to make that change for an injector, scanners and repair tools or vehicles having a fuel supply?
Also if you did do that you would have to give it regular requirements and then everyone would be able to fit them.
- You can lessen the duration, increase recharge time, impose a strict cooldown before recharge time. You can reduce a user's movement speed when cloaked or make the shimmer even brighter (think a flash or sparkle) when sprinting. You can force decloak on weapon / flux damage. You could also reduce scan range or precision (cloak field interferes with that capability can be the reasoning)
All other ways without making it a one off equipment
"Shine bright like a diamond"
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