DUST Search - CPM cloak discussion

Iron Wolf Saber wrote:

Couple dozen threads an hour is making it hard for me to keep up with so here's where I am garnering so far.

*Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles

I will agree these need to be fixed.

*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot

I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.

*Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux

I agree but a full disruption punishes pure blind luck of stray shots that can happen as well. I rather see a few tweaks instead such as cloak timer draining because of damage and longer lasting cloak scattering because of damage.

As for flux, I would like to see a massive chuck eaten out of the timer with it (scaled to the flux damage maybe?)

*Cloak Noise

Maybe for self sound its a bit too loud and out of balance but as a third person its balanced.

*Decloak to weapon swap speed

Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time.

*Cloak timer at prototype

80 seconds is an eternity waiting for it to recharge. I think a second variant of cloaks is warranted, something with 30 second timer across all tiers and faster cooldown efficiency.

*Cloaked hacking

I see no problems currently with this.

*Brick Tanked Cloakers

There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus. While we could go after the tanking modules themselves that's going to effect ALL classes and that would get more messy than needed.

=Anything else did I miss?=
Will update points and discussion if new things are brought to my attention. I know with the 1.8 patch then 1.8 hotfix this week and the follow up tonight and possibly more on the way lots of crap flying around and my time is split between paying attention to you guys and working with fanfest build.

OT posts will not be tolerated. I know vehicle rebalancing just hit but I feel that there hasn't been enough time to adapt around it yet to see if more follow ups are needed or if they went overboard.
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet.


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Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 129	Posted - 2014.03.28 04:06:00 - [1] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Couple dozen threads an hour is making it hard for me to keep up with so here's where I am garnering so far. Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles I will agree these need to be fixed. Cloaks are a bit hard to spot I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them. Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux I agree but a full disruption punishes pure blind luck of stray shots that can happen as well. I rather see a few tweaks instead such as cloak timer draining because of damage and longer lasting cloak scattering because of damage. As for flux, I would like to see a massive chuck eaten out of the timer with it (scaled to the flux damage maybe?) Cloak Noise Maybe for self sound its a bit too loud and out of balance but as a third person its balanced. Decloak to weapon swap speed Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time. Cloak timer at prototype 80 seconds is an eternity waiting for it to recharge. I think a second variant of cloaks is warranted, something with 30 second timer across all tiers and faster cooldown efficiency. Cloaked hacking I see no problems currently with this. Brick Tanked Cloakers There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus. While we could go after the tanking modules themselves that's going to effect ALL classes and that would get more messy than needed. =Anything else did I miss?= Will update points and discussion if new things are brought to my attention. I know with the 1.8 patch then 1.8 hotfix this week and the follow up tonight and possibly more on the way lots of crap flying around and my time is split between paying attention to you guys and working with fanfest build. OT posts will not be tolerated. I know vehicle rebalancing just hit but I feel that there hasn't been enough time to adapt around it yet to see if more follow ups are needed or if they went overboard. As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet. If you can go read my posts in "you are blind" or whatever thread, which should be on the most recent page. I explain exactly why cloaks need to go. If you want a nice copy paste, I can do that as well.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 130	Posted - 2014.03.28 04:15:00 - [2] - Quote In three days there has not be a single valid argument for cloaks. Common answers include: 1. Get your eyes checked 2. Get good 3. Eve has them 4. Scouts needed them to either be good or get "the drop" on enemies 5. I can now be good There is no valid argument for a cloak. I can post 20 reasons why cloaks are not required, how the rewards poor gameplay, and how they are nothing but a crutch for bad scouts. I have posted many times and have clearly demonstrated to "scout deniers" (like tank deniers) but scouts don't want their new ridiculous toy to go because it means a return to their previous struggles.. Again, not true. Scouts got a boost in 1.8 from 1.7 by adding either a hi or a low to current scout suits, adding a second equipment slot, and adding two new classes. These additions provide a great boost to scout (who did just fine in 1.7 but some scouts did need help). The bonuses provided more flexibility to roles and gameplay, as well as more flexibility and adaptability in slot layout and finally provided more varied roles for scouts to play. There was no reason, none, to include a cloak to scouts. Cloaks are a crutch which reward poor gameplay, poor strategy, poor decisions, and lack of skill to a class which is centred around good decisions, selective engagements, and being strategic in their movement. So please, read what I have wrote in other threads, there's a lot there but the arguments are solid.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 131	Posted - 2014.03.28 05:17:00 - [3] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Cotsy, no one cares. You run a cloak just like everyone else. Quit your bullkitten. If you're not going to contribute constructively stay out of the thread. Why wouldn't you run a cloak? -it solves every single problem with the scout class, it.makes up for any poor decisions, any lack of awareness, any mistakes in engagements you make. It is literally one big crutch that rewards poor gameplay and poor decisions, in fact it rewards players are making poor decisions. Let's see: 1. Cloaks let you hack without being aware of your surrounding. They reward players for reaching an objective and immediate cloaking and hacking it, no reason to check your surrounding because a cloak will help you avoid a bad decision. 2. Cloaks also help scouts cross wide open spaces, usually considered a poor decision to be a fragile suit and cross open space, but a cloak provides a much safer option when crossing open spaces, and therefore rewards a bad decision because you get to where you want to be quicker without intelligent gameplay. 3. Cloaks allow for less strategic gameplay. Scouts are suppose to flank, they are suppose to get behind the enemy because they are fragile and need the advantage of surprise to take down larger targets. The cloaks provides this advantage for free. It rewards scouts who immediate rush the frontline (not really where they are suppose to excel or be) rather than staying on the fringes of battles (avoiding congested areas) and picking off outlier targets (selectively). This further implies being selective with targets, scouts should have a hard time taking down targets they attack head on.. This is not the case with cloaks. Scouts are able to charge or charge and wait the frontline does and take care of them. 3. Cloaks allow for a class which is based on movement, strategy, selective targeting to be based on cloaking and killing... The movement and objective play and the need to be a killer when the opportunity arises is what a scout does, it doesn't negate the role and replace it with an assault front lines warriors who is slaying everyone in sight. This isn't the Logi slayer 2.0 class, this is a strategic, thought required class. Cloaks don't add it it, they subtract from it by removing skill and rewarding poor decisions to their role. 4. Scouts were fine in 1.7 - some struggled and therefore 1.8 gave a boost - in 1.8 scouts were given 2 equipment slots to be versatile, more flexible and more adaptable to battles. They were also given 2 new scouts, the Cal scout provided a vast new role and again added much to the class. The scout class also received an addict all hi or low slot to their current scouts, which added their flexibility, versatility, adaptability, and power. There was no reason when scouts received a boost that a further OP item was added. Scouts were going to be strong in 1.8 without cloaks, cloaks pushed the class over the top. Cloaks are not required for a scout to be good, and now they are good regardless of skill. B) Players who were bad players (and still are bad players because they make terrible decisions) turned from bad players into good ones without the player doing anything but turning on the item. This is called a crutch, this is called unnecessary and really should not have bEen the desired effect. This is a matter of a single item adding significant skill, without a player deserving it. If scouts were down and they needed a boost, they received one and these players would have improved marginally until they got enough experience to play properly. But, a cloak has turned bad gameplay by poorly skilled players into killing machines and it a crutch to increase scores from those whose gameplay are not deserving of such rewards. So bad players are now slayers, so its rewarding bad gameplay and not punishing it. 5. The game has some rather serious issues of frame rate, lag, bugs etc.. Adding to this is the shimmer affect of a cloak. Cloaks might work if the game was more polished, but cloaks are unnecessary to a scout excelling, unnecessary to cancel or reward poor gameplay and not required when a scout is played properly. When game is polished, you can introduce cloaks but right now they are a crutch that rewards poor gameplay. Scouts feel they should be able to take anyone 1v1 or even 1v2, of course the elite can do this but cloaks give this ability to anyone and that is wrong. Players should be aware of bad engagements and run, cloaks aren't required for this to occur but provide opportunity to those who don't deserve it. Again, rewards bad decisions and rewards those who are making them because the game can't handle it. B) There are also some issues with de-cloaking, attacking while cloaked,etc. they should be fixed but it still doesn't mean cloaks should be so so far ahead of any other equipment that not running a cloak is a punishment. As Moody said, i know you are using one..of course, there is 0 balance in equipment and choosing the far and away best option in 1 of 2 slots has to be made. There is no reason to run anything else when a cloak provides such a boost to any type of gameplay (except if you are running a Logi scout, but that's not being a scout). In summary, cloaks reward everything the scout class is suppose to punish. Poor gameplay, poor decisions, and poor tactics are rewarded with cloaks. A scout is suppose to use movement to flank and get advantages by being strategic, and thst kind of sge play doesn't require a cloak to be successful at. There are 0 valid arguments against cloaks, no one says anything but "nerf eyes they are OP". Those players are just bitches who sucked before and now don't want to nerf their new slayer OP suit because its fun, highly rewards any decision they make, and they are killing players who they havent before.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 131	Posted - 2014.03.28 05:29:00 - [4] - Quote 6. Scouts most survive with CQC weapons, it is a skill to get into range for NK, RE's or SG. A cloak provides that advantage without the skill required to get close. So again, it removes the talent and skill and instead provides it at little cost to strategic play. This also ties into this surprise attack factor, it also applies to using movement and strategy to excel and not just rely on your crutch, i mean cloak. It diminishes the role, the true role of movement and avoiding congested areas, and gives scouts an advantage in these areas while providing the opportunity to get to these areas at little or no threat to their health. 7. There is no drawback from running a cloak. It doesn't fill both equipment slots, so scouts are using same equipment as before and have option of a cloak on top of their old builds. There is no movement or penalty provided by the cape, instead it rewards players with what they should be penalized for in all areas of the game. The cloaks only provides and doesn't take away. In all honesty scouts are just denying because they don't want to return to their previous struggles. I don't see how it would matter to elite players like Moody who excelled before, a cloak only provides them with a huge boost and removes the chances any mistakes hurt them. I get it, i want to be good but a cloak is fake skill.. Its easy mode, it's not me and my skill it's the cloak and its ability to remove punishment. Its not a good item, so many items could have helped the scout class and not ended up like this.. Smoke grenades could help hacking, moving through areas, being stealthy, etc.. Cloaks are not required for a scout to excel and lets everyone be good compared to what they would have been due to their lack of skill. Its a help where help shouldn't be given.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 131	Posted - 2014.03.28 05:34:00 - [5] - Quote There are also some dumb mistakes: Cloaks are an equipment but Logi don't get a bonus to it, that's smart but wrong. You dont want Logi cloaked slayers, but if its an equipment slot piece, then they should be given it. Why doesn't flux nades remove cloaking? Its electronic, it would make sense that it would remove cloaking and prevent re-cloaking until "x" amount of time. Why can't you have the RE and Cloak arms up at same time.... It's not like they are two different arms. Replace RE arm with cloak arm, same arm. You should be able to set off removes but not have them in hand because thats what the inter face is for both equipment. Why don't dampeners affect cloak shimmer? The less scan profile, the lower the shimmer would make sense. Reward those playing stealth and movement roles and would lightly punish those brick tanking while cloaking.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 154	Posted - 2014.03.29 01:48:00 - [6] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel' Can someone give me 5 reasons why cloaks are required. Can a scout not succeed without a cloak? Scouts were given a boost to modules, equipment in 1.8 so why was a cloak introduced on top of that, was it really needed? Show me how a cloak isn't being used to rewards poor gameplay or has to be used to get kills. Tell me why skillful play shouldn't be the reason you succeed rather than an easy button. Show me how the cloak isn't a crutch or an easy mode. Explain why it is required while providing an argument how it doesn't give players an advantage (offensively and defensively) with no drawbacks. If you must use more invalid arguments, you can use "eyes are OP" or "get good". I have not read a single supporting argument for a cloak to be in the game. I have clearly shown how it rewards poor gameplay and lowers the likelihood that terrible decisions are punished simply by turning it on.