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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
35
   |
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Cloaks are nowhere near as powerful as I thought they would be and as a result I think they are quite balanced. Initially I used one assuming I would be able to move past people's field of vision without being spotted, but it doesn't work like that and I died a lot. I have discovered I need to play the same way I did in 1.7 but with the cloak activated I am less likely to be spotted at a distance in someone's peripheral vision. Somebody glancing in my direction as I am moving round at a distance for a flank or between objectives won't get the red dot on the radar like before so probably won't see me.
I still have to attack people from the rear as before, so really the cloak hasn't had much affect on my chances of success in an engagement, I still need to "play smart". At the moment I am doing worse with my scout than in 1.7, though I suspect that will change when i'm more used to things.
Regarding "brick tanking" and scout suits, the problem may be that Gallente scouts get effectively 3 free low slot modules, freeing up space for plates. If a Gallente scout had to fit a repper, a range amplifier and a profile dampener they couldn't fit 850 odd hp. I'm not saying remove all their bonuses, maybe swap the dampening one for ion pistol damage or something. Probably too late for that though. I don't think Caldari are too bad since their bonuses are split between high and low slots and are mainly for countering scouts anyway. |
Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
35
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
I quite like the idea of flux grenades disabling cloaks. Can't imagine it having much real effect on the game but it's a nice idea and would be great if it appeases some of the QQ.
In general I think it's probably best to wait and see what changes will be made to assault suits and scanners (if any) before making changes to scouts/cloaks. |
Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
40
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 13:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
I posted this idea in King Barbar's thread about cloaked scouts.
All the infantry balance issues seem to revolve around brick tanking. If CCP implemented a "damage-mod-style" stacking penalty (100%-87%-~45% efficiency) on armor plates it would be impossible for scouts to get as close to assault suit hp and people would feel less bad about cloaked scouts.
This would also have various additional benefits such as promoting varied fittings, preventing logis from stacking hp as close to heavy hp or too much higher than assault hp, addressing the imbalance between shield and armor tanking. I know this is an idea that people have come up with many times before but the more I think about it the more sense it makes. Tell me where I am going wrong. |
Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
53
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 17:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
The more 1.8 I play, as a scout or otherwise, the less cloak QQ I hear and the less of a problem it seems. People are adapting. |
Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
53
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 21:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
The counter was and still is the focused active scanner. In 1.7 scouts always dampened below any scanners on the field. Cloaks affect the frequency of flanking attacks not the nature of them. Now it is arguably harder to avoid scans as passive scanning has become viable for some players and you do not get feedback about when you are detected in this way.
Perhaps scanners were nerfed too hard. Personally I find sticking together with team mates and being aware that cloaked scouts may attack enough of a counter, and it seems many players agree. However if you really think people need a way to combat scouts perhaps the active scanner needs looking at.
How about an advanced focused active scanner. Buff scan angle in general for all scanners. Currently it's too hard to find people with the snapshot scan. Anyway, back to finding scouts. Make an advanced focused scanner, keep the 20db precision but maybe a short range, long cooldown, short scan time, maybe a 90 degree arc and high fitting costs.
The idea is that although most people won't bother, people can't QQ about scouts because the answer is this:
"Just get a focused scanner".
The scanner itself will be too rubbish to massively affect scouts, who can avoid it anyway if they really want to. Though probably better to just hide for a bit. But low sp characters can at least feel like they are fighting back against the "cloaked menace".
Practically, having the equipment and having to keep looking behind them to use it will do a lot to help the player learn the awareness necessary to combat cloaked flankers.
Maybe I'm just going nuts here. Cloaks are fine. Wait a month or two to see how it goes. |
Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
54
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 12:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
TL/DR: If you have to change something change decloak speed, not fitting, charge, and definitely not profile reduction.
Having read the OP edit this is my feedback. Although I am still of the opinion that cloaks are ok, people are adapting and it is much too early to think about nerfs. Anyway:
On the table
*Cloak electronic stealth value
I am strongly against changing this. Firstly it would greatly favor Caldari and Gallente scouts, arguably already more powerful than the others, especially Gallente. More importantly I feel many people do not fully understand the situation with scanning and profiles in 1.8. Speaking about non-PC matches (I haven't heard anybody having a problem with cloaks in PC but I may be wrong) the reality of the scanning changes from a scouts perspective is this:
In 1.7 my profile level was low enough to avoid all non-proto active scanners. Nobody used passive scanning at low precision so this wasn't an issue. This meant I could happily run around without being scanned the majority of the time. If the enemy started using proto scanners, I got the "you have been scanned message" and switched to a suit with 1 basic dampener rendering me invisible to proto scanners again. I was not concerned about focused scanners as they were very rare and I always felt I could just wait out the scan duration and attack during cooldowns.
Now in 1.8 the situation is more complex. I still mostly run around without dampeners. I can now avoid proto scanners by simply activating my cloak. Gallente logis with proto scanners or anybody with a focused scanner will force me into my "stealth suit" just like 1.7. Often though I will be passively scanned either by Caldari scouts or others with lots of precision mods. This will result in a number deaths without me even realising I had been scanned. If I cotton on, maybe I see a Cal scout and die unexpectedly, I will be forced into my "stealth suit". The difference is that now in 1.8 my stealth suit, instead of being safe with 1 basic dampener, now is fitted with 1 complex and 1 enhanced dampener. This is because there is no way to be sure just how good the enemy's scans are. It is entirely likely an enemy Cal scout is running a low enough precision to see through both my cloak and 1 dampener. I'm not saying it's easy for them, just that people do it because of the power of detecting cloaked scouts. So from a practical standpoint I use more dampeners now than in 1.7.
So for these reasons I don't think the cloak profile reduction should be changed. Maybe scanner arc should be increased a bit to compensate for the lack of 360 degree spins, but that's another (though related) issue.
*Cloak fitting is on the table still.
-Currently the fitting seems quite balanced so I would be reluctant to mess with this.
*Cloak decloak speed.
- This is a possibility. It would stop people attacking from cloak and from in front of enemies, which I can see being annoying. As I said before, the cloak does not need drastically changing, but if it needs it a slight increase in decloak to attack time may be that would be ok. This would work well with the scanning mechanics as it would increase opportunities for people to detect you with scans before you attack (i'm talking up to 1sec warning here). Also this is nice as it wouldn't have much affect on people who use the cloak purely for flanking/mobility rather than running at people head on.
*Cloak charge rate internally
- I would be against this. The way the cloak has been designed is different than how many people, including me, imagined it. Long cloak duration and quick regen is important to this design. I imagined the cloak giving near total invisibility that you can use for short periods against chosen targets. This is not the way it works though. It is designed to be a nearly passive defense against people who might otherwise catch you in sight without looking for you and spoiling your attempt at flanking without any effort. The visibility reduction is not very strong meaning you still have to play stealthily whilst cloaked. This is a very clever mechanic as it doesn't render all the skill learned over the past year being stealthy useless. This means you need to be cloaked for quite a large amount of time as it is often defending you against people that you are unaware of due to distance or randomly moving so you are in their line of sight, meaning it is difficult to predict exactly when you need to be cloaked. This point is also important for the profile reduction as I have explained.
(I moved the profile effect to the top as I feel most strongly about it, incase people got bored reading the rest, lol!) |
Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
55
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 12:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sorry to double post, but one more thing about the profile/scanning situation. I like it now as there are many more options and uncertainty. Before 1.8 it was easy to calculate or look up exactly what level of dampening you need. Now it is situational. Any amount of dampening is useful but not essential. I choose to go from no dampeners to 2. But equally many people might feel happy with the level of protection 1 dampener offers. There is no prescribed correct profile level. This makes the whole scanning meta game much more interesting than it was in 1.7 and I think it would be a real shame to mess it up. The cloak on/off extra dampening just adds to the interesting ewar situation. |
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