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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13792
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Couple dozen threads an hour is making it hard for me to keep up with so here's where I am garnering so far.
*Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
I will agree these need to be fixed.
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
*Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux
I agree but a full disruption punishes pure blind luck of stray shots that can happen as well. I rather see a few tweaks instead such as cloak timer draining because of damage and longer lasting cloak scattering because of damage.
*Cloak Noise
Maybe for self sound its a bit too loud and out of balance but as a third person its balanced.
*Decloak to weapon swap speed
Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time.
*Cloak timer at prototype
80 seconds is an eternity waiting for it to recharge. I think a second variant of cloaks is warranted, something with 30 second timer across all tiers and faster cooldown efficiency.
*Cloaked hacking
I see no problems currently with this.
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus.
=Anything else did I miss?=
Will update points and discussion if new things are brought to my attention. I know with the 1.8 patch then 1.8 hotfix this week and the follow up tonight and possibly more on the way lots of crap flying around and my time is split between paying attention to you guys and working with fanfest build.
OT posts will not be tolerated. I know vehicle rebalancing just hit but I feel that there hasn't been enough time to adapt around it yet to see if more follow ups are needed or if they went overboard.
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13794
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Glitches obviously need to be fixed, but glitches are glitches.
Moving while cloaked is easy to see.
Flux grenades should fully drain a cloaks recharge meter thing. I haven't used them personally, so I can't really comment on the rest. You shouldn't be decloaked from damage.
Brick tanking is a problem that CCP has been creating for a while, and they only further encouraged it with the 1.8 TTK changes. The damage and flux I like, the glitches needs to be fixed but this is just common sense. As for brick tanking that is not a scout problem, this is a general problem due to bad module distribution and nothing better than HP modules.
True but HP is a hard weight, while sensors are a soft weight in a shooter, you cannot fully measure how useful a sensor module is vs HP. Does seeing through walls equal 100 hp? 50 damage? 0.5 seconds off shield recharge? that value of sensors vary from player to player. Then of course there is the other module and stats alterations. Simply bringing it to compete with HP from majority view may make some players play styles excessively out of reach due to the enabling caused by the module changes. This ain't eve. Where I can plug in a bunch of numbers and get the outcome of most scenarios.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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13794
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
LEHON Xeon wrote:Don't know if anyone else is having the problem, but when I use a cloak I cannot do anything while in it except move. I can't swap to a weapon or even equipment without instantly uncloaking. Even when swapping to a gun, it seems I can get a round or two off before I become fully visible, but if I use anything else like an RE it deactivates. I can't even just hold the RE and it'll turn off.
LOL 
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13797
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Glitches obviously need to be fixed, but glitches are glitches.
Moving while cloaked is easy to see.
Flux grenades should fully drain a cloaks recharge meter thing. I haven't used them personally, so I can't really comment on the rest. You shouldn't be decloaked from damage.
Brick tanking is a problem that CCP has been creating for a while, and they only further encouraged it with the 1.8 TTK changes. The damage and flux I like, the glitches needs to be fixed but this is just common sense. As for brick tanking that is not a scout problem, this is a general problem due to bad module distribution and nothing better than HP modules. True but HP is a hard weight, while sensors are a soft weight in a shooter, you cannot fully measure how useful a sensor module is vs HP. Does seeing through walls equal 100 hp? 50 damage? 0.5 seconds off shield recharge? that value of sensors vary from player to player. Then of course there is the other module and stats alterations. Simply bringing it to compete with HP from majority view may make some players play styles excessively out of reach due to the enabling caused by the module changes. This ain't eve. Where I can plug in a bunch of numbers and get the outcome of most scenarios. I don't mean it in such a general way, but for example in EVE what generally goes in your lows as an armor tanker? Tackle, and EWAR you close quickly to lay down tons of damage. This outweighs the value of the higher HP from shields (discounting the large sig radius). As a shield tanker what do you use? You boost your repair or you boost your damage you try to kill the enemy to keep that distance. In Dust there is a backwards balance, from EVE. There are opportunities and rewards going to the wrong side, to a side that just doesn't need them. For example look at kinetic catalyzers, why would a shield tanked suit want to rush into battle? Look at damage modifiers, why would you give the highest HP suit the best damage also? The value of a module does vary from player to player, but the mindset of that player (assuming he knows the role of his suit) is counter acted by the modules being on the wrong side.
And this is the gritty part of design is where things become a mess, we could introduce new modules that help either side of the rack out but they too need to be balanced against existing modules. I know its a long discussed demand of the community to have modules in both highs and lows or having modules move from high to lows but there are considerations why they're made into some ways they are also not many do ask the what if question enough.
What if kinkats where high slots? Speed tanked Gallente with similar amounts of armor hp they enjoy now is almost just as scary of a thought as a cal scout with tri damage mods shotty cloak and shields to boot.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13797
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Personally I think they did a fair job of balancing the cloak. Most tears come from oversaturation of the role due to it being new equipment. Anything seems ridiculous in high volumes. This is a new toy and everyone wants to play with it. I want to be very very sure nothing is done in classic CCP fashion as a ridiculous nerf due to the tears of the loud sections of our playerbase.
I agree that there should be different variants for different jobs and playstyles. The weapon switch in my opinion is about perfect. It's not too short and not too long. I think most people have problems with the cloaks and shotguns. For any other weapon that requires you to actually aim a little bit the decloak time is perfect.
Also we must consider that currently even the minmatar has a lot of trouble in the fitting department. An increase in cloak cost will make this suit which already has extremely HP even weaker and harder to fit.
My question is should all scouts have similar fitting issues to the minmatar or should minmatar be brought up to the rest of the class?
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13809
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Paran Tadec wrote:I have found some issues. Naturally, those without gun game will complain about any changes to cloak.
However, I have proposed a few changes that should make cloak more balanced/skill based:
1. Either fix the decloaking animation to be faster, or add a delay on offensive capabilities other than hacking. ie, you have to fully decloak to fire. This is striaght from Eve. Allow the time to fire to decrease per level.
2. Lower the stupidly high uptime of the cloak and add a mandatory downtime. Such that, you can just one shot someone from behind and cloak, repeat, and take on multiple people. It'll force scout to chose targets smarter. Again, depending on SP investment, this can be lowered per level.
3. Heavily increase the fitting reqs for cloaks and give scouts a bonus that only allows them to fit them. Cloaks in Dust are essentially covert ops cloaks from Eve. Other cloaks in eve dont allow you to move very fast at all.
4. Decloak mandatory on flux. Cloak field shimmer on taking damage from other weapons.
Do this and cloak will still be powerful and fun.
I could work with these.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13809
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Personally I think they did a fair job of balancing the cloak. Most tears come from oversaturation of the role due to it being new equipment. Anything seems ridiculous in high volumes. This is a new toy and everyone wants to play with it. I want to be very very sure nothing is done in classic CCP fashion as a ridiculous nerf due to the tears of the loud sections of our playerbase.
I agree that there should be different variants for different jobs and playstyles. The weapon switch in my opinion is about perfect. It's not too short and not too long. I think most people have problems with the cloaks and shotguns. For any other weapon that requires you to actually aim a little bit the decloak time is perfect.
Also we must consider that currently even the minmatar has a lot of trouble in the fitting department. An increase in cloak cost will make this suit which already has extremely HP even weaker and harder to fit. My question is should all scouts have similar fitting issues to the minmatar or should minmatar be brought up to the rest of the class? I think most of the problem stems from plates. You can fit a caldari like an actual scout suit and come up with a good build (2 range amps, 2 shields, a precision and an adv/proto cloak. a real scout). You run out of resources but you have an actual scout build. Not a light assault build and you used your resources properly. Plates require absolutely nothing in terms of fitting cost. As long as you have 2 to 3 PG left over you can stack an extra 200+ HP.
So the fitting on the sensor suite is too high. I'll bring that up in the next discussion see what the developers think since I do sort of agree those modules are nice to have but are very hard to fit.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13811
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Glitches obviously need to be fixed, but glitches are glitches.
Moving while cloaked is easy to see.
Flux grenades should fully drain a cloaks recharge meter thing. I haven't used them personally, so I can't really comment on the rest. You shouldn't be decloaked from damage.
Brick tanking is a problem that CCP has been creating for a while, and they only further encouraged it with the 1.8 TTK changes. The damage and flux I like, the glitches needs to be fixed but this is just common sense. As for brick tanking that is not a scout problem, this is a general problem due to bad module distribution and nothing better than HP modules. This. The problem of cloaks isn't just abot cloaks. It's not even about scouts. It's about a lot of other issues with the fittings meta as well. Also, assaults need to be better at assaulting - that would help alleviate scout/cloak spam. Without the spam, QQ should be reduced. Just please - I'm sure I'm not the only scout who was apprehensive about our role bonus being tied to one specific piece of equipment. I'd seriously prefer CCP ditched it and gave us another role bonus, rather than watch it go through a ridiculous nerf/buff cycle. Alternatively, create more ways to counter cloaks.
I agreed with the sentiment earlier; which is what helped killed the cloak racial scout specific bonuses early in development. (you can hate me for it)
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13811
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Posted - 2014.03.28 03:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:An additional point to consider is I've heard the active scanner angles are bugged (i.e. they're scanning in a more narrow arc than they should). A big part of cloaking balance is having the counters to them functioning properly. I don't want to go off topic, but perhaps considering active scanner changes might be reasonable. Nobody wants a return to the "scannerina" debacle, but there may be some changes that could encourage damp fits over stacking plates, particularly with the Gal logi.
Already complained about it but will throw it on top my burn pile since its a 1.8 related thing.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13816
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Posted - 2014.03.28 04:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
I agreed with the sentiment earlier; which is what helped killed the cloak racial scout specific bonuses early in development. (you can hate me for it)
Don't worry - you are know as 'friend of the scouts' (or whatever) after all. Saying that, we don't have a role bonus if we don't use it (I'm pretty sure no other role bonus is so specific). I take it there is no chance CCP will just ditch cloaks (at least until they come up with a 'cov-ops' frame) and giving us real scout bonus? I get the impression they really want to force this shiny toy into the game one way or another. If we had for example, reduction to electronics and Biotics mods we'd get bonuses to modules that increased our speed, stamina, stealth and perception - which are pretty scouty to me. Maybe give only the min scout a bonus cloaks if they have to stay in - since the scout QQ is really compounded by the brick tanking issue. Would help alleviate the flow of slayers to the scout role - though they need a good home in the assault class. Just trying to emphasise, half the perceived problems is not with the device itself, but the context it is used.
I wished but too much development going on right now to get a new class in.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13819
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Posted - 2014.03.28 04:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I'm having a problem with the CPM giving his own opinions about what he agrees with, disagrees with, or what he could "work with".
CPM should relay info that the community is feeling without their own personal opinion. They are representing the community's decision. And that should be the only one being discussed with CCP, regardless of what they feel they could "work with" or not.
CCP > What do you think of cloaks.
CPM > Spouts word for word the community
CCP > You're contradicting yourself... what is it? good or bad?
CPM > Everything With it is right and wrong according to the community.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13821
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Posted - 2014.03.28 04:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I'm having a problem with the CPM giving his own opinions about what he agrees with, disagrees with, or what he could "work with".
CPM should relay info that the community is feeling without their own personal opinion. They are representing the community's decision. And that should be the only one being discussed with CCP, regardless of what they feel they could "work with" or not. CCP > What do you think of cloaks. CPM > Spouts word for word the community CCP > You're contradicting yourself... what is it? good or bad? CPM > Everything With it is right and wrong according to the community. Please don't take the time to make these replies I'd rather that time spent post something....constructive? CPM is a responsibility and I get it, you take answers from the community, but it's your job to make sense of it, Detective Encyclopedia Brown.
Ah but the thing is it turns into a conversation with the developer responsible and if he asks Why and I got nothing... well you see how that could turn out. Investigating reasons and why and why not's and then finding ways to present them in a logical manner empowers me and other CPMs to tell the developer he's wrong on something he may be a bit to adamant about being right.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13821
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Posted - 2014.03.28 04:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Poonmunch wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Couple dozen threads an hour is making it hard for me to keep up with so here's where I am garnering so far.
*Cloaks have glitches associated with them which leads to invisible weapon usage and vehicles
I will agree these need to be fixed.
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
*Cloaks persist too well through damage or flux
I agree but a full disruption punishes pure blind luck of stray shots that can happen as well. I rather see a few tweaks instead such as cloak timer draining because of damage and longer lasting cloak scattering because of damage.
As for flux, I would like to see a massive chuck eaten out of the timer with it (scaled to the flux damage maybe?)
*Cloak Noise
Maybe for self sound its a bit too loud and out of balance but as a third person its balanced.
*Decloak to weapon swap speed
Seems a bit fast for my own tastes but we don't need to bring this far too high it becomes a frustration and cumbersome and ruin the edge of a surprise attack. 2.5 sec max and lets try it 0.5 increments at a time.
*Cloak timer at prototype
80 seconds is an eternity waiting for it to recharge. I think a second variant of cloaks is warranted, something with 30 second timer across all tiers and faster cooldown efficiency.
*Cloaked hacking
I see no problems currently with this.
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus. While we could go after the tanking modules themselves that's going to effect ALL classes and that would get more messy than needed.
=Anything else did I miss?=
Will update points and discussion if new things are brought to my attention. I know with the 1.8 patch then 1.8 hotfix this week and the follow up tonight and possibly more on the way lots of crap flying around and my time is split between paying attention to you guys and working with fanfest build.
OT posts will not be tolerated. I know vehicle rebalancing just hit but I feel that there hasn't been enough time to adapt around it yet to see if more follow ups are needed or if they went overboard.
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet. Know what kills me? These comments are quite well thought-out and have come right on the heels of the patch. I bet it'll take CCP over 6 months to address these problems. Munch
Yup right now it is striking time while the iron is still hot.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13823
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Posted - 2014.03.28 04:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
What is getting relayed to ccp? ask the other cpms and the community team and based on the reports I read the community team does a fine damn job.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13826
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Posted - 2014.03.28 05:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vargralor wrote:It has been suggested in a few of these threads but one way to fix the brick tanking issue is to change the shield extender and armour plates to be percentage based instead of flat values. Tune them so that the percentages give something around a commando the same hitpoints they have now with flat values, cut the base HP on Heavies a bit to compensate. The Assaults should likely have a small HP buff so they work out better than tanking than the logi suits.
Then add stacking penalties to the modules.
Scout suits could still add tank for some extra HP but nowhere like they can now. This should encourage usage of a lot of the other modules that are available now but are little used.
Resistance Plates and Fields.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13834
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Posted - 2014.03.28 07:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:
Yes, so why is the CPM finally paying attention to this, a minor imbalance at best, while leaving other far larger issues broken for so long? This is an issue for me.
FYI, CR was reduced with other weapons but it still needs fixing since it was the most OP of them all. The armour shield % are imbalanced relative to other weapons.
You can blame takario from red star why I would like to avoid talking about vehicles in general. Most other issues have been talked about just pending action now. Also like I said the devs are in a hot fixing mood might be able to get something squeezed in before we have to wait until next code patch (which nobody has any idea when that will be) So I don't want the new toys with problems to be old toys with long standing problems come around next code integration.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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13843
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Posted - 2014.03.28 09:07:00 -
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Mregomies wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
*Cloaks are a bit hard to spot
I am a slight disagreement with this, a moving scout can be spotted quite a bit far away (my longest spotting is about 90 meters out) it is just difficult for me on controller to put fire on them.
Actually it is quite easy to shoot cloaked mercs with sniper rifle. My personal best is 578m with Thale's in Bridge domination map. I use cloak with ck.0 scout when using REmotes at objektive. imo that cloak is balanced after those "cloaked knife kills" will be fixwd
Wasn't using a sniper though. 100 meters is pretty for no ads.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.03.28 22:37:00 -
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So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel'
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.03.28 23:23:00 -
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Samantha Hunyz wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So quick question should decloaking consume some of the 'fuel' CCP's vision of the cloak was you could use it to cross an area safely or to get away from a hot area. The current way it works, you can do both easily back to back. Decloaking should reset the fuel to 0. This way you can use either one way or the other, but not constantly spam and crutch on the cloak.
The thing is I doubt I can get ccp to shift to a 'consume all fuel' they're pretty set on the 'cloak management' idea and to be honest I have no intention of even fancying the idea.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:18:00 -
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I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
For those of you wondering how I played scout before the update I was what you can call a flanker/recon scout type. I ran around the edges of combat looking for folks trying to take back routes, slackers, and kill snipers with hack things and blowing up equipment behind the front lines.
It was bad before when I can run up to people and stab them in the temples without them noticing me until it was too late, cloaks have made this game style FAR more empowered because I don't have to run around and away as far when it comes to circling the fight. Less time wasted running more time screwing up the back lines. I am no vanguard scout like appia and the likes but I have ran into those types and they're very hard to deal with as well considering how cloaks can be hard to spot for and if they're paying attention to you they can avoid detection mostly on semi open hilly terrain and they're not the only target of interest in the area.
Hunting cloakers down is not something one can seemingly spec into doing and its a hard style to pick up. Maybe if I get my gal logi back up (still short 6 million isk on books) I can try messing around with scanning.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:33:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message. Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with???
No. Just those in agreement get put into queue faster. Those in disagreement takes more evidence, reasoning and time to override my opinion. Most of those I have disagree with have generally failed to meet criteria, such as prototype tanks. Ones meeting criteria, Respecs for 1.8.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:36:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:BIind Shot wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message. Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with??? You troll. It's a serious question....I'm dead serious because I wonder what these CPMs are actually saying to these devs. I feel like they are only pushing for **** that they agree with even if most of the community doesn't. CCP should just leave everything to a community vote like they did with the current sp system.
You mean the roll over system everyone voted for and still not implemented?
LOL
Still pushing for that by the way.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:43:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message. Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with??? No. Just those in agreement get put into queue faster. Those in disagreement takes more evidence, reasoning and time to override my opinion. Most of those I have disagree with have generally failed to meet criteria, such as prototype tanks. Ones meeting criteria, Respecs for 1.8. UNBELIEVABLE.........so you have confirmed my suspicions!
Sorry but there are those in the community who:
wanted tanks to die in one plasma cannon shot,
think that prototype suits need immunity from militia,
keyboard controls are fine, (they're not),
wants prototype tanks despite how unkillable before hardener change previous vehicles could achieve,
thinks dom 1.0 is perfect,
Planetary Conquest was fine,
wants cloaks removed,
wants heavies removed,
wants all vehicles removed,
list goes on.
Trust me I can easily be the worst cpm pushing all the worst of ideas available.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:48:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
You don't push every single idea to the CPM....you just push what the majority agrees on whether you agree or not. Your opinion is just one of the many as a regular player. Everyone's vote shouldn't equate to 1 while yours or any other CPM's vote equates to 1000
Forums are a super minority vs the entire player base though and that's fact.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.03.29 21:52:00 -
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knight guard fury wrote:u ignoring my post IWS
I am trying to keep quiet on most of the discussion points to not alter it too much need much raw input as possible, I am reading, just digesting the information.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:05:00 -
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Rusty Shallows wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:snip
*Brick Tanked Cloakers
There is a problem but not sure how best to deal with it outside of ramping up cloak fitting more which means either increasing the fit cost of the cloak or decreasing scout innate bonus.
snip The innate fitting skill reduction looks really good. It could mess with fitting mobility mods on my Minja but I can live with that. I'm not sure if it is possible but splitting the bonus into two could work. Keep the current saved value for CPU, slash x percent from the saved PG. It could work so long as neither extenders or plates get pg reductions in the future. If there is a goal to restrict cloaks from other classes then increase the all cloak fitting costs. If it isn't then don't do it. The current CPU/PG feel right when I look at them with a Medium Frame. Iron Wolf Saber wrote:snip
As for Assaults there are discussions on how to buff them but the development team isn't ready to share them yet. Thanks for the heads-up. I don't even run Assaults and it's a concern.
Cloaks are not intended to be scouts only according to CCP.
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:17:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
You don't push every single idea to the CPM....you just push what the majority agrees on whether you agree or not. Your opinion is just one of the many as a regular player. Everyone's vote shouldn't equate to 1 while yours or any other CPM's vote equates to 1000
Forums are a super minority vs the entire player base though and that's fact. Secondly; who's side do I take? the loudest or most reasonable? They prototype hav committee makes more trash posts and threads demanding for such devices and nobody has ever really started a thread saying no to prototype tanks, it just doesn't happen. Forums are a super minority but why does your opinion outweighs everyone else's that comes to the forums? Your own personal opinion doesn't reflect the entire player base either. When companies do their surveys, do they use one person's opinion or do they take a selected number of people for their control group? Although 100% of the community do not come to the forums....those that do is a better reflection than one man's opinion. Secondly, you take the side which has the most supporters. I could be 1 out of 100 people asking for sights to weapons and gun customization. The other 99 could be against it with silly arguments for why there shouldn't be full gun customization. You still have to push for no gun customization because that better reflects the community's opinion. Not to mention that who determines who's "most reasonable"???
My opinion is one of cpm; if you disagree with my views find another cpm that will; CPM Nova Knife is the most polar opposite of me in terms of stances on topics. I am more of a tuning fork that intelligent thoughtful and reasonable members of the community can strike a proper tune with. I reverberate their stances. I have nearly pitched for all play styles so far and suffered as they has as a player.
If you feel your voice is getting drowned out draw a truely good case for your own cause or find someone who can make that case for you really well and support them the best you can; CCP community team will pick it up. Those people you support typically become community leaders the CPM do listen to and often these folks wind up becoming nearly or if not cpm themselves. Poor cases and poor passion is the reason why so many issues go mostly ignored or get defeated easily.
Polls are an ultra minority with less than 0.0% of the community involved usually; let me ask what was the last poll you filled out? Last poll had less than 120 participants involved.
As for community driven changes done by other companies ask SOE's roadmap; plenty of negative score items getting developed first over the items that received multiple hundreds in the score.
Or worse yet the polls are poorly constructed; for example FFXIV ARR asked about what kind of new race players would like to see and one poll result was excessively overwhelming because it mentioned the bunny girls from ffxii. When in fact yoshi (creative director) wanted something more draconian and despite the poll results it seems the new race will be draconian like.
Hell there was one poll sent out by the Eve online team that errored out if you answered you where a female game on the poll declaring you were done with the survey.
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:20:00 -
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mollerz wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:knight guard fury wrote:u ignoring my post IWS It doesn't matter what you post.....cause if he disagrees, he's not pushing for it. One thing about IWS, he does listen to and for reasonable discussion. He spent a lot of time with us scouts, and it was greatly appreciated. Plus, he's actually a fun dude to have chip in on the inanity. BUT~! I really wish he'd change his focus to getting bugs fixed and improving UI vs nerf campaigns. One thing that has been proven time and time again, is that CCP doesn't even really listen to the CPM anyways. I think CCP is on a really good path finally, and 1.9 is looking up. I hope they move forward versus too much tinkering with stuff they get right.
There are topics I don't touch because of the nature of next and upcoming rendering the fight invalid.
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:43:00 -
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Look, my overall goal is to keep cloaks fun but fair.
There are a few glitches but I am pretending they're not existing for the sake of the discussion.
The thing is though the whole issue is that I am not trying to turn this into a fun vs fair discussion but trying to make it so that it remains fun AND fair.
Right now there is are many potential possible changes but one wrong acted change WILL result cloaks becoming unfair and unfun.
A bad example; the cloak slowdown suggested by one of the posters would make cloaks unfun and unfair as a cloaker to be hampered with. There are no run+ modules in this game only sprint+ there is also no skill to reduce shimmer or the like under high stress situations either just hurts cloaking overall into making it a useless tool.
There are dozens of ways the cloak can be adjusted while remaining fun. For example and example only; the consumption of cloak charge while getting damaged could increase fun on both sides as it will reward cloak hunters for finding a cloaked person and causing damage to them forcing at least a retreat or exposure. Cloakers will get the 'oh shoot' moments and will have to react or die if they ignore. The game play still remains mostly the same for the cloaker but now the counter cloakers game feels a bit more fair and fun breaking cloaks.
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:46:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:Something else I'm not sure has been said yet, but you really don't need cloaks for stealthy gameplay. Day one of 1.8 I skilled an alt into gal scout with an HK4M shotgun (never trained any skills for it) and a basic cloak. I didn't need the cloak to be stealthy. The fact of the matter was that I was already effectively invisible because I wasn't on the radar. All I had to do was detect the bad guys and, since I know what direction they're facing, make sure I was standing behind something when they looked my way. Then when they would walk my way I'd hit the cloak, let them pass and then follow them to a spot where I'd ambush them. I even did this against 3 guys at once and killed two of them before the last guy took me down because I tried to kill him too instead of jumping over something and recloaking. On a character with around 4 million total SP. I had like 300 hp on that suit at most. I didn't need the cloak to do that, I could have just shot him in the head with my shotgun at point blank range as soon as he came into view. I used the cloak to make it easier to set up that kind of ambush.
. Exactly it......people are acting as if they need cloaking to be stealthy. You can't see scouts on your radar as it is...especially since the scanner nerf. Cloaking has just allowed people to be cheesy..running around invisible for 15 mins
There are scanner bugs it seems though waiting on fixes for those.
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:47:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:No problems with cloaks. Tanked scouts are a problem only because medium frames
how are tanked scouts a problem and not cloaks?? This is a facepalm position to have. [/quote]
hypocrite
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:48:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:Something else I'm not sure has been said yet, but you really don't need cloaks for stealthy gameplay. Day one of 1.8 I skilled an alt into gal scout with an HK4M shotgun (never trained any skills for it) and a basic cloak. I didn't need the cloak to be stealthy. The fact of the matter was that I was already effectively invisible because I wasn't on the radar. All I had to do was detect the bad guys and, since I know what direction they're facing, make sure I was standing behind something when they looked my way. Then when they would walk my way I'd hit the cloak, let them pass and then follow them to a spot where I'd ambush them. I even did this against 3 guys at once and killed two of them before the last guy took me down because I tried to kill him too instead of jumping over something and recloaking. On a character with around 4 million total SP. I had like 300 hp on that suit at most. I didn't need the cloak to do that, I could have just shot him in the head with my shotgun at point blank range as soon as he came into view. I used the cloak to make it easier to set up that kind of ambush.
. Exactly it......people are acting as if they need cloaking to be stealthy. You can't see scouts on your radar as it is...especially since the scanner nerf. Cloaking has just allowed people to be cheesy..running around invisible for 15 mins There are scanner bugs it seems though waiting on fixes for those. what bugs? I'm glad scanners got nerfed into oblivion. Big time crutch.
Sorry but all manners of people do complain to me about every issue not just on the cloak subject.
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:03:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
What are you apologizing for? I'm just asking what bugs do the scanners have because I'm not aware of it. I used it to see the changes and I saw the changes as CCP stated.
For?
Why should I explain the bugs when the first words out of your mouth was declaration you don't care for scanner's plight? Maybe someone else will be nicer to explain what is current broken with them.
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:07:00 -
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AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote:If you want to fix this problem, if you consider it that, you need to make it so that cloaking is an either or proposition. People who are asking for even more slots on Assault and Logi suits are absolutely out of control. As a scout, pre-1.8, it was true - you could be "stealthy" but no more stealthy than any other suit in the game. It's true that on SOME radars you wouldn't show up, but most suits had a scan radius of 10 or something pre-1.8. So nobody used passive scanning anyway. They relied on their eyes. And scouts were just as visible as they've any other suit in that situation. Compound on to that OP rifles like the RR, CR, AR and SR (the latter two OP to a scout with 250 eHP) and scouts were needlessly slaughtered. We weren't (and aren't) fast enough to get away and we had no real method of actual "stealth". We could be sneaky, but we could be sneaky in a gallente assault suit with more slots, more PG and more CPU and more base armor and shields. The cloak was supposed to even the battle field. Scouts would still be squishy, but at least, if they were smart, they had a functional game mechanic that could help them overcome their inherent disadvantages. (for instance, if you're defending a point that suddenly gets overrun, you can hide, cloak, passive scan and wait for the opposing squad to leave before undoing their work - simple, annoying, efficient scouting).
The problem is "scouts" with 200 shields and 750 armor. I don't like these people. They're not now, nor have they ever been real scouts. They are assault holdovers from 1.7 who used to role in a gallente logi with 5 complex armor plates and damage modifiers up the wazoo. Now, they're fully brick tanked, running around in a cloak and are abusing, destroying, tarnishing everything the scout community has waited SO INCREDIBLY LONG for. They will inevitably say that "this is new eden", "all's fair" "it's a valid fitting" --- but everyone knows you're just abusing the game mechanic because you've invested so much of yourself in your KD/R that you don't care if you ruin the game for everyone so long as you protect your win button. Seriously.
That is why I am suggesting that fittings in which a cloak is used have a 50 to 75% reduction in armor and shield mod efficacy. brick tanking won't be a real issue then. Real scouts can continue to fight - not as light assault suits, but as paper-tin, invisible, fast, menaces on the battle field.
I like people who think and see the bigger meta that is evolving.
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:30:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
What are you apologizing for? I'm just asking what bugs do the scanners have because I'm not aware of it. I used it to see the changes and I saw the changes as CCP stated.
For? Why should I explain the bugs when the first words out of your mouth was declaration you don't care for scanner's plight? Maybe someone else will be nicer to explain what is current broken with them. Then don't explain it.....I adapted to it last build and I'm happy it's in the tank now. Anything in between will make no difference to me.
And I no longer see the value in hearing your voice anymore; you lack respect, advocacy, awareness, humility and knowledge, or willingness to understand. You then continue to show high levels of selfishness, disrespect for fellow community members, understanding of the establishment of the community team and CPM and their functions, and finally I am going to take you as someone who is going to cry like a baby to the entire community about not representing you but instead you replace word 'you' with the word 'community.'
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:31:00 -
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Ares 514 wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote:If you want to fix this problem, if you consider it that, you need to make it so that cloaking is an either or proposition. People who are asking for even more slots on Assault and Logi suits are absolutely out of control. As a scout, pre-1.8, it was true - you could be "stealthy" but no more stealthy than any other suit in the game. It's true that on SOME radars you wouldn't show up, but most suits had a scan radius of 10 or something pre-1.8. So nobody used passive scanning anyway. They relied on their eyes. And scouts were just as visible as they've any other suit in that situation. Compound on to that OP rifles like the RR, CR, AR and SR (the latter two OP to a scout with 250 eHP) and scouts were needlessly slaughtered. We weren't (and aren't) fast enough to get away and we had no real method of actual "stealth". We could be sneaky, but we could be sneaky in a gallente assault suit with more slots, more PG and more CPU and more base armor and shields. The cloak was supposed to even the battle field. Scouts would still be squishy, but at least, if they were smart, they had a functional game mechanic that could help them overcome their inherent disadvantages. (for instance, if you're defending a point that suddenly gets overrun, you can hide, cloak, passive scan and wait for the opposing squad to leave before undoing their work - simple, annoying, efficient scouting).
The problem is "scouts" with 200 shields and 750 armor. I don't like these people. They're not now, nor have they ever been real scouts. They are assault holdovers from 1.7 who used to role in a gallente logi with 5 complex armor plates and damage modifiers up the wazoo. Now, they're fully brick tanked, running around in a cloak and are abusing, destroying, tarnishing everything the scout community has waited SO INCREDIBLY LONG for. They will inevitably say that "this is new eden", "all's fair" "it's a valid fitting" --- but everyone knows you're just abusing the game mechanic because you've invested so much of yourself in your KD/R that you don't care if you ruin the game for everyone so long as you protect your win button. Seriously.
That is why I am suggesting that fittings in which a cloak is used have a 50 to 75% reduction in armor and shield mod efficacy. brick tanking won't be a real issue then. Real scouts can continue to fight - not as light assault suits, but as paper-tin, invisible, fast, menaces on the battle field.  I like people who think and see the bigger meta that is evolving. I'm glad you like a horrible idea. Come on, this tank issue has been around forever with logis and nothing was ever done about it. People from eve ***** and wine about dual tanking for whatever dumb reason. The real issue is balance among the various mods. The basic armour plate is way to cheap CPU / PG wise as others have stated. Some of the non hp modules are way to expensive. The shield extenders scale horribly. Fix the mods.
I said nothing about the liking the idea, I said I like the person behind it.
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Posted - 2014.03.30 00:03:00 -
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Yan Darn wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote:If you want to fix this problem, if you consider it that, you need to make it so that cloaking is an either or proposition. People who are asking for even more slots on Assault and Logi suits are absolutely out of control. As a scout, pre-1.8, it was true - you could be "stealthy" but no more stealthy than any other suit in the game. It's true that on SOME radars you wouldn't show up, but most suits had a scan radius of 10 or something pre-1.8. So nobody used passive scanning anyway. They relied on their eyes. And scouts were just as visible as they've any other suit in that situation. Compound on to that OP rifles like the RR, CR, AR and SR (the latter two OP to a scout with 250 eHP) and scouts were needlessly slaughtered. We weren't (and aren't) fast enough to get away and we had no real method of actual "stealth". We could be sneaky, but we could be sneaky in a gallente assault suit with more slots, more PG and more CPU and more base armor and shields. The cloak was supposed to even the battle field. Scouts would still be squishy, but at least, if they were smart, they had a functional game mechanic that could help them overcome their inherent disadvantages. (for instance, if you're defending a point that suddenly gets overrun, you can hide, cloak, passive scan and wait for the opposing squad to leave before undoing their work - simple, annoying, efficient scouting).
The problem is "scouts" with 200 shields and 750 armor. I don't like these people. They're not now, nor have they ever been real scouts. They are assault holdovers from 1.7 who used to role in a gallente logi with 5 complex armor plates and damage modifiers up the wazoo. Now, they're fully brick tanked, running around in a cloak and are abusing, destroying, tarnishing everything the scout community has waited SO INCREDIBLY LONG for. They will inevitably say that "this is new eden", "all's fair" "it's a valid fitting" --- but everyone knows you're just abusing the game mechanic because you've invested so much of yourself in your KD/R that you don't care if you ruin the game for everyone so long as you protect your win button. Seriously.
That is why I am suggesting that fittings in which a cloak is used have a 50 to 75% reduction in armor and shield mod efficacy. brick tanking won't be a real issue then. Real scouts can continue to fight - not as light assault suits, but as paper-tin, invisible, fast, menaces on the battle field. I like people who think and see the bigger meta that is evolving. That idea is pretty bad though - its only regular armour plates that are an issue - ferroscales and reactives are expensive enough for what they do. Shield tanking is only a 'threat' on Cal scouts - and that is only used because the Assaults are in such a bad position, not because it is OP or unbalanced in anyway really. Really, balancing regular armour plating would ease this problem and so many others... EDIT:'Sorry, just seen above post.
Of course, just the thinking that brought the idea is pretty valid. That assaults are simply outclassed by the scout class because of how people are using the meta. Though I am thinking that the whole brick tanking issue is something that is going to to needs discussion at this rate as it will start to become problematic (and the worst of the pre 1.8 predictions slowly come true)
The idea itself (while off the wall and rather unusual) was however itself not well thought out unfortunately. A simple exercise is asking 5 five times; and even allow full branching so you have five layers of why's answered. Also off wall ideas do bring up inspiration for others. For example in this case; what if sensors were nerfed instead while cloaked? You'll be running electronically blind similar to eve's mechanics.
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Posted - 2014.03.30 00:39:00 -
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So anyways weekend almost over time to focus the discussion a bit. (yes we're working against a clock in which I don't know the time line either here too btw)
We're still pending what to do with the cloaks but some of the changes won't be possible without code of course such as the damage drain if implemented is likely one of those that won't get hot fixed.
So changes if any should involve timers, scout bonuses, fitting of the cloak itself.
About brick tanks
I feel that overall the brick tank issue is bigger than everything here and in its own right deserves its own discussion however this topic is also rather large and may take a comprehensive look and pass thus not applicable in the near time hotfix period ccp is working with so far. So this is a discussion best saved for '1.9' development and not 1.8 hotfixing.
*Minmatar scout for the time being should be buffed in fitting to match freedom the other scouts enjoy (imo minmatar should have a bit more than most other suits)
Cloak Fitting
So with those off the table. We come to the cloak itself.
CCP stated they didn't want cloaks to be scout only tool.
They also stated that they don't want it to make it seem every scouts MUST fit a cloak as well.
These two are most likely going to restrict any changes in the cloak fitting itself
Which leads us to the scout bonus or scout fitting.
Scouts are enjoying the new freedoms they have and honestly I don't see the issue with this. Just as one person puts it a scout gives up nearly nothing to cloak. Only in the more extreme cases are scouts are forced to go tank (unfortunate result of the current imbalance of tank vs utility fitting) So I am a rather apprehensive about adjusting the scouts fitting; too much damage can occur.
So proposed change would be to the scout bonus to cloaks fit. To reduce from 15% to a percent to five lower. I know that something like 13% will look odd on the skill sheet but it works out at max levels with numbers like 70-65-60 for every percent marked down.
So I would like to see this debate continue on what to do with this.
The next more common issue that is greatly affecting game play is how fast one decloaks.
I am uncertain this is hotfix able to be honest and it's something to continue discussion on about as well.
You have to remember I am a stalker type scout back before cloaks came about; any changes to this will not effect my game style at all. Its the vanguard (front line fighters) that will have the most issues as they often have to decloak in front of enemies pointing guns at them and I am terrible at that role. I know how frustrating the game used to be when you commanded a weapon swap and it there was a time delay in the swap I don't want that feeling to return. But I also want to give attentive and hunter players the chance to drop on the scout or reflex on the scout and possibly come out on top.
There is also the the speed of the decloak not matching the time to action. While I am unsure what change it would do for the non cloakers the non cloakers think its going to save them. (based on the killing I've been seeing it won't) I guess the point here is that there is a frustration of people getting killed by invisible people.
I see no harm in fixing the glitch and possible the intended portion of the time to action decloak speed.
cloak shimmer rate
overall a more minor issue but even then I don't think one can achieve a hotfix with this as well.
Cloak Charge
Overall this doesn't seem hotfix able when you involve damage prospects. Maybe for 1.9 but for now I don't see it being a feasible trait to add without a ptch.
What can change is the rate of recharge and consumption.
There isn't much discussion about it but a good cloaker can manage their chargers for a very long time and I am afraid to bring any changes to this outside of new variants but I would like to hear more talks about it such as 1 second cloak = 1.5 second charge or the like.
Stealthiness
Cloaks are considered very powerful stealth tools able to dodge a number of scans, while scanners await their fix there is now the debate should cloaks provide any stealthing? Overall I am fine with it as is as it allows dedicated hunters to beat lower cloaks and the like but the entire system needs a rewrite that absolutions are no longer the case (that being nearer a weaker scanner increases risk of detection for example) The number behind the stealthiness could be change but not the mechanics surrounding it. I would like to see more discussion on this as well.
So TL;DR
Off the table.
*Minmatar fitting underpar should be forwarded, let ccp figure the numbers out for that.
*Brick Tanking is off the table. Better suited for 1.9 discussion due to size and complexity of subject
*Cloak Charge bar being externally altered by other players.
*Potential Shimmer
*Cloak Stealth Mechanics
On the table
*Cloak fitting is on the table still.
*Cloak decloak speed.
*Cloak charge rate internally
*Cloak electronic stealth value
Updated Op with change in discussion.
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Posted - 2014.03.30 00:49:00 -
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knight guard fury wrote:IWS check pyrex's 1.8 review. he is great at judging patches
wont load...
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Posted - 2014.03.30 01:14:00 -
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Samantha Hunyz wrote:@Iron Wolf Saber, regarding your last wall of text:
I noticed alot of "I feel" as in your personnal opinion pretty much dictating what appears that is what you will be presenting to CCP. You are susposed to be a voice of communication between the players and CCP. but it seems as though your going to tell CCP what they should or shouldn't hotfix based solely on your playstyle. Perhaps I misinterpretated your text, but that is my "opinion" I gathered from reading your text.
I use the word 'I feel' for mostly for things I am not concrete on or its part of a larger pool of a generalization of direction to go; its a way for me to recognize there is something wrong and there is no perfect answer.
The issue is complicated overall as this is more of a circle this time. altering one alters the whole circle and letting ccp do the adjustments without any guidance or concerns raised up can result in bad hilarity.
I can't work on singular answers because I can't read ccps mind and have no idea what they will bring to the table when it comes time to talk. These debates are just helping me be armed with reasons to work around with to get a better desired result while working with ccp.
Also like I said there are things that may not get hotfixed or not we don't know yet to the extent cloaks.
You have to remember I went through the scouts buffs and the much earlier heavy buffs in a similar manner.
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Posted - 2014.03.30 01:15:00 -
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yeah its his video stopping at 4 seconds in and stalls loading.
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Posted - 2014.03.30 01:22:00 -
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I never declared cloaks overpowered however.
I always had been stating that they been near perfect.
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Posted - 2014.03.30 01:36:00 -
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knight guard fury wrote:i find it humerous that i have crappy connection and i can watch his video reatedly and you probably have great internet connection and it wwont load for you
I just find it funny I can watch other youtube videos..
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Posted - 2014.03.30 01:57:00 -
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and funny that video played fine.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.03.30 03:13:00 -
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ugg reset wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:LEHON Xeon wrote:Don't know if anyone else is having the problem, but when I use a cloak I cannot do anything while in it except move. I can't swap to a weapon or even equipment without instantly uncloaking. Even when swapping to a gun, it seems I can get a round or two off before I become fully visible, but if I use anything else like an RE it deactivates. I can't even just hold the RE and it'll turn off. LOL wow you"re funny. I already new we had the CPM to thank for not having our primary weapon at the ready while cloaked. thanks for the unneeded pre nerf.
There is a reason why nobody else replied to that post.
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Posted - 2014.03.30 08:00:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I'm having a problem with the CPM giving his own opinions
YOU SEE, LOOK AT THIS
YOU CAN NOT BE SERIOUS
Makes threads like these seem to be as if they're falling on deaf ears.
CPMs are too opinionated and are arguing their points too much, it feels as if what we say doesn't matter
You agreee with this guy? Seriously??
PS2 will not affect dust
I find your issue with brick tanking funny when you defend cloaking and say it isn't a crutch.
I don't know what to say....
It is backwards and ridiculous a tthe same time.
cloaks has to go
is that what this fps has come to?
Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with???
I don't see how you guys can argue this.
It's a serious question
UNBELIEVABLE.........so you have confirmed my suspicions!
corrupt CPM
Forums are a super minority but why does your opinion outweighs everyone else's that comes to the forums?
You take the side which has the most supporters.
It doesn't matter what you post.....cause if he disagrees, he's not pushing for it.
"What more do I want...?" I want him to be impartial.
running around invisible for 15 mins
This is a facepalm position to have.
what bugs? I'm glad scanners got nerfed into oblivion. Big time crutch.
Where's the hypocrisy?
Will make no difference to me.
Yet that's how they all play...its all hypocritical
how are tanked scouts a problem and not cloaks?? This is a facepalm position to have.
This is how I value all of your posts so far in this discussion. There are plenty of ways of disagreeing with me, the cpm, or ccp or most importantly of all fellow community members without having your post valued to this level.
You bring nothing new to the table. Everything you said has been said better by other more respectable folks.
You're letting your wild imagination rule over you or is it fear? Either way I wont find out.
You're causing undue strife spreading misinformation and obtaining a level of idiocy that will lead you and potentially your corp into voice invalidity. So takario 2.0
/your fired
P.S. you'd be the second person I ever fired takario hasn't stooped a low as you have.
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Posted - 2014.03.30 17:53:00 -
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Mad Syringe wrote:In EVE, you can't cloak and are decloaked in the proximity of stations/other ships. Why not make it similar in Dust.
If you aproach a cloaked player and have line of sight, you should see his shevron when he is within half your passive BASE scanning distance. Meaning an Assault player would see the chevron when he directly looks at a scout within 5m. But only if he moves, even if it's ever so slightly. If he's standing still the chevron should disappear.
The hp stacking should result in higher speed penalty for scouts so they become much slower when stacking plates.
Flux grenades should scramble the cloak in a slight manner, meaning the cloak shimmers for 3 seconds like full sprint, and the capacity drains at 1.5 times the amount for those 3 seconds.
Decloaking should always require the switchoff animation before using weapon or equipment.
This isn't eve though, you cant lock onto a shimmer in eve even if you do spot it against the black space ground. That's why the whole proximity thing was brought in and to this day cloaking is the most lamented cases of balance in eve to date nearly untouched for so long and there is no way a player could track down an afk cloaked ship.
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Posted - 2014.03.30 17:55:00 -
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KalOfTheRathi wrote:CPM ears are deaf. Why would any suspect otherwise? They react with the same HTFU and just play the game that CCP does. Thus, you might as well talk to the deaf ears of CCP versus spending any effort on CPM. But that is just from my own personal experience with IWS and my concerns about how CCP was destroying over a year of effort that I put into this character. Which they did. Just as rumored while IWS told me to calm my silly little Merc self down and HTFU. What goes around comes around. In Dust the next step is that whatever that was heads down the drain.  Just my experience. Your mileage will vary, one might hope. 
We're rather open; being deaf would be ignoring all the cloak threads and going ahead with a bunch of nerfs I purposed before the cloaks landed and trust me if anyone can find that list again they would probably go wtf?
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Posted - 2014.03.30 17:56:00 -
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Paul Ellinas wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:[b]
Cloak Fitting
So with those off the table. We come to the cloak itself.
CCP stated they didn't want cloaks to be scout only tool.
They also stated that they don't want it to make it seem every scouts MUST fit a cloak as well.
These two are most likely going to restrict any changes in the cloak fitting itself
and here we have the main problem! "CCP stated they didn't want cloaks to be scout only tool" why did they gave the scouts then a extra equipment slot? and the CPU/PG for 2 equipments? Now they can leave the second eq slot free and spend the CPU/PG for defense HP and a good weapon. So in reality scouts have 2 bonus for the cloak compared to the other roles. First the CPU/PG bonus, second the extra equipment slot ( with the CPU/PG who comes along with it). A reduction from 15% to 13% is a got move let us see if,when and how its gone work out.
and yet a non cloaking scout can still utilize the second equipment slot for something, maybe a second RE, maybe a scanner its up to the scout really. There is nothing forcing you to fit a cloak in equipment slot.
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Posted - 2014.03.30 17:59:00 -
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Yan Darn wrote:Knight Soiaire wrote:Only problem I have is how people can instantly pull up and shoot their weapon after decloaking, it needs to have some timer that stops you from immediately pulling your weapon and shooting just like an activation timer for REs.
If you're caught while Cloaked, you should not have the chance to instantly fight back, you should have to wait 1-2s before being able to fire back as punishment for being caught.
Sounds in third-person needs to be increased too, out of the +20 times I have been Shotgunned by a decloaker, I have only heard the sound once. I'm just going to keep mentioning this - because I'm worried CCP might add artificial timers that will make decloaking feel awkward and clunky. There already is a 'timer' if you manually decloak wih R1 - lets just have it so any action that would decloak you activates the same animation. Voila - the glitch that some people don't realise is a glitch and not a reason to nerf cloaks is fixed. Right?
hmm can we discuss the third person sound more? What makes it consistent what doenst? Also try to verify the distance of decloak if they're like me they may be decloaking well out of ear shot then running in.
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Posted - 2014.03.30 18:14:00 -
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KalOfTheRathi wrote:CPM ears are deaf. Why would any suspect otherwise? They react with the same HTFU and just play the game that CCP does. Thus, you might as well talk to the deaf ears of CCP versus spending any effort on CPM. But that is just from my own personal experience with IWS and my concerns about how CCP was destroying over a year of effort that I put into this character. Which they did. Just as rumored while IWS told me to calm my silly little Merc self down and HTFU. What goes around comes around. In Dust the next step is that whatever that was heads down the drain. Just my experience. Your mileage will vary, one might hope.
We're tone deaf, CPM really does not like working with people that most likely equitably harasses them every second, every post, and every thread, and every irc/skype comment. This is why most of the cpm don't even visit the forums anymore.
Yes we tolerate a bunch of crap but we dislike it more when people get while illusions of grandeur of how much power the CPM has (and really doesn't)
Lately I been holding up the critics to the same level of expectancies they put on me. So far they all fail their idea of a CPM.
I rather be able to sit here and sift through this thread and let debating voices influence my range of potential thoughts when asked by CCP; rather than say screw it. burn the forums and let people in irc or skype influence me instead.
And based on current complaints... I am so glad we did convince ccp to not do their version of the cloak; cries for cloak outright removal would be the rage of the forums and not calls for adjustments as current.
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Posted - 2014.03.30 23:53:00 -
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Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am going to agree with minmatar scout being worse off scout for now on grounds of fitting and will relay the message. Does this mean that you are only relaying messages that you agree with??? No. Just those in agreement get put into queue faster. Those in disagreement takes more evidence, reasoning and time to override my opinion. Most of those I have disagree with have generally failed to meet criteria, such as prototype tanks. Ones meeting criteria, Respecs for 1.8. you mean like Tech Ohm telling you about unbalanced rifles ? or how about unbalanced tanks going too fast? swarm range being nerfed too much? instead you listened to Tankahiro ,Speaker and others in 1.6 and gave further buffs to tanks and buffs to rifles for 1.7 I hope you listen to shoot while being cloaked is BROKEN but does it matter? not really . the PS4 Migration by September at latest or sooner by June . If dust remains unbalanced then its other games to play
Me listen to takario? buwhahahaha >< sorry let me find a rug so I can roll on the floor to laugh.
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Posted - 2014.03.31 16:43:00 -
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Denn Maell wrote:Off Topic: IWS, can you confirm that the shotguns haven't been 'tweaked' or 'glitched' in some way when they adjusted the proficiency bonus from RoF to Shield damage? I've only used shotguns a little pre-1.8 but I think there are some differences in its range/rate of fire now. (also I only have SG Op.3 and I notice it seems to be working differently)
Sorry for the off topic, but the two issues seem to be related to me, beyond the ability to fire before decloak issue.
Some hit issues have cropped back up and ccp is trying to resolve them.
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Posted - 2014.04.01 20:03:00 -
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I haven't poked dennie or any other test groups about testing but as it seems now most of this conversation is likely going have to shift to next patch talk now.
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Posted - 2014.04.02 18:03:00 -
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GTA V FTW wrote:jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:GTA V FTW wrote:On the table, when are we getting kill streaks?
I called that this would happen.
LOL fail developer will always be a fail developer. gtfo gta fanboy. Oh and killstreaks are for noobs. Funny, and cloaks are for....................highly skilled players who need to be invisible as to not show everyone their mad skillzzzzz. Pfff please. As stated above, epic fail from a LOL developer.
League of Legends?
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Posted - 2014.04.04 21:38:00 -
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SILENTSAM 69 wrote:Anyone who thinks the cloak makes you invisible is just not paying attention. Far too many people see me pretty easily at range. If any change needs to happen to the cloak it is to reduce the shimmer, at least when crouched. We have the most visible cloaked players in any FPS that I have played.
second most. There is other fps where they have special anti cloak vision modes.
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Posted - 2014.04.05 10:02:00 -
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KING CHECKMATE wrote:IWS of CCP:
''On the table
*Cloak fitting is on the table still.
*Cloak decloak speed.
*Cloak charge rate internally
*Cloak electronic stealth value''
Dont waste your time.
Fitting is OK.Scout bonus is ok.
Decloak speed could be immediate.As soon as one presses the change weapon button the cloak is removed before one can shoot.BUT I GUARANTEE YOU 100%, this wont stop the complaints at all. This is just some random excuse people are using to call the cloak OP, but the truth is, 90% of the times a scout attacks from behind,where making visual contact is impossible for the victim even without cloak,
Charge rate and duration are fine
Removal of 25% profile damp might go, but not important.
Dont waste your time nerfing the only thing you guys at CCP have released that actually works. Concentrate on the next equipment, the next vevhicles the next whatever and ignore the few inconsistent complains of a minority trying to justify their deaths.
thats all.
Time wasn't wasted.
The fitting issue is separate topic at this moment and needs it own discussion.
Decloak speed wont alter much of the game play still as scouts will quickly learn on how to covertly decloak out of earshot and still put two fresh plasma slugs into the back.
Stealth Value is looking like a more acceptable nerf by the day. If scouts want to really go unseen they should look towards fitting damps. This is currently based on how people have nearly stopped using scanners; how even some super fitted scan scouts still can't see these guys cloaked.
Management of charge right now is nearly mindless. The time cloaked can be nearly equal to the time spent engaging making running out of cloak or waiting on the cloak a non issue with the weaker cloaks (which is probably discouraging the use of the prototype)
Rest of the things are going to require a patch if ever seriously considered.
Cloaks have to be fun for the people who are not cloaking, currently its not; not by a long shot.
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Posted - 2014.04.05 18:28:00 -
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Well the stealthing issue itself is pretty bad overall because other classes is incapable of countering and it does require swapping classes in order to counter. This could be solved in maintaining diversity by having players squadding up but this leads to the unhealthy behavior of command mandating a squad member MUST run a cal scan scout and chances are they're not going to recruit a new scrub to do this. Instead they're going to force one player of the squad to change careers.
As for the whole domino effect the way I see things is more of a ripple in a small pond, eventually the ripples will hit the outside and make their way back in. The way back in is what concerns me the most because this is what the player adaption turns into; the FOTM syndrome. Right now the ripples are still expanding with very few parts of the ripple hitting back; but based on previous player behavior there will be a shift; it hasn't happened yet, and when it does the number of complaints will manifest that may result in a unhealthy nerf overall as players are going to call for an unreasonable altercation.
I mean all this talk about 'weapons x should do less damage with cloak equipped' and the similar scares me and I rather not have it go that way at all if possible.
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Posted - 2014.04.05 21:36:00 -
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The scanner system needs a massive overhaul imo ><
Sensors should not be a game of absolutes where if you don't have x fitting number you get detected.
Should be more like because you have this number would determine the possibility of getting detected at this range.
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Posted - 2014.04.05 22:02:00 -
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Scout Registry wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:The scanner system needs a massive overhaul imo ><
Sensors should not be a game of absolutes where if you don't have x fitting number you get detected.
Should be more like because you have this number would determine the possibility of getting detected at this range. Sensors play a part, but whether or not an act goes undetected is already a complicated calculus. Sight, Sound, Squadsight, Coms, Friendly Action, Hostile Action, Distraction, Orientation, Elevation, Fields of Vision ... there's generally alot more at play than what one may gather should he focus solely on his minimap. :: Shotguns Shimmer (+50) ::
Yes but lets say I sensor out my heavy for point defense, because currently the sensor field is a game of absolutes I can still never see some targets on my minimap because the rule doesn't allow for it.
But if the sensors where to turn into a game of time and range; things get interesting.
Either way comms are not as useful as one would think against the best of scouts, I seen some of the known squads still torn apart by a cloaked scout. If anything it made it easier to pick them apart because of the way they started to freak out.
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Posted - 2014.04.05 22:08:00 -
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jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Scout Registry wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:The scanner system needs a massive overhaul imo ><
Sensors should not be a game of absolutes where if you don't have x fitting number you get detected.
Should be more like because you have this number would determine the possibility of getting detected at this range. Sensors play a part, but whether or not an act goes undetected is already a complicated calculus. Sight, Sound, Squadsight, Coms, Friendly Action, Hostile Action, Distraction, Orientation, Elevation, Fields of Vision ... there's generally alot more at play than what one may gather should he focus solely on his minimap. :: Shotguns Shimmer (+50) :: Yes but lets say I sensor out my heavy for point defense, because currently the sensor field is a game of absolutes I can still never see some targets on my minimap because the rule doesn't allow for it. But if the sensors where to turn into a game of time and range; things get interesting. Not a good idea I want to be completely invisible for my sealth fit.
http://urbanpeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/animal-camouflage-11.jpg and eventually if you look hard enough... same thing happens with most sensors too, the longer they look at it the more suspicious it becomes. Its how nearly all current stealth vehicles get detected despite efforts to protect their position.
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Posted - 2014.04.05 22:26:00 -
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Hmm I wouldn't say nerf the cloaks via tiered reduction in sensor damps but maybe provide a line of cloaks that offers the bonus (but gains no charge capacity) in the manner proposed and remove the damp bonus from all other cloaks.
I am also seriously honestly believing that making the whole 'cloak match to action' is not going to change people getting shot by people they are not even going to see in the first place typically from the back. Fixing this is more of a consistency issue but will not resolve complaints.
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Posted - 2014.04.06 02:27:00 -
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Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Hmm I wouldn't say nerf the cloaks via tiered reduction in sensor damps but maybe provide a line of cloaks that offers the bonus (but gains no charge capacity) in the manner proposed and remove the damp bonus from all other cloaks.
I am also seriously honestly believing that making the whole 'cloak match to action' is not going to change people getting shot by people they are not even going to see in the first place typically from the back. Fixing this is more of a consistency issue but will not resolve complaints. if its fixed: moving in a complex count to five and Crazy Ivan manuever check your six and nothing , continue moving in a complex and Crazy Ivan manuever check your six and nothing, continue moving in a complex and Crazy Ivan manuever check your six and AHA!!!!!!! got you!!!! +50 dead shotgun scout versus if its NOT fixed: middle finger to dust 514 checks to see if Playstation 4 is in stock gets Playstation 4 beta Destiny,Playstation 4 beta Doom
Most people I stalk only turn in one direction to check. Just have to see which direction they check from afar before moving in.
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Posted - 2014.04.06 09:31:00 -
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Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:stuff. When is CPM1 elections again? 1) Minmatar fittings are fine, actually they have too much CPU. FIX SHIELD EXTENDER FITTINGS. Shield extenders belong on the suits with the most CPU and least PG, why do they take about the same PG as plates? Oh and switch kin-cats and damage mods (make kincats high slots and damage mods low slots). 2)Cloaks make you harder to see visually, dampners make you harder to see on scanners. Why do cloaks get a free dampner? Why do cloaks have no penalty? Plates effect HP, extenders effect recharge time, kincats/EWAR means sacrificing HP, Dampners sacrifice nothing. 3) Brick tanking has everything to do with the tanking modules themselves, not the individual suits. (1 militia mod can add ~40+% HP to a scout, ~25% to an assault or ~10% to a sentinel.) This means that because of similar slot numbers, suits end up with similar eHP. So either nerf the slot number (don't do this) or modify tanking modules so that base eHP values actually do matter.
Why are you running? <^-^> (BTW read the last 25 pages)
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Posted - 2014.04.06 10:23:00 -
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Garrett Blacknova wrote:I think this is relevant.
Yes it is; cross posting to threads about the subject should be allowed.
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Posted - 2014.04.06 10:26:00 -
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The-Beard wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:
3) Brick tanking has everything to do with the tanking modules themselves, not the individual suits. (1 militia mod can add ~40+% HP to a scout, ~25% to an assault or ~10% to a sentinel.) This means that because of similar slot numbers, suits end up with similar eHP. So either nerf the slot number (don't do this) or modify tanking modules so that base eHP values actually do matter.
By this do you mean; light mods, medium mods, and heavy mods? Reminds me of eve mods, but in a good way. We should have something like this. The fitting Asset window would be a bit of b*tch though.
Problem with that system is it requires an order of fitting in the 1's 10's and 100's to make sense in the same way eve orders it because you don't want everyone in heavy suits and you don't want light suits full fitting the heaviest (and prototype level) reppers.
For example
Light repper 5 pg 1 cpu
Medium repper 50 pg 10 cpu
Heavy repper 500 pg 10 cpu.
Scout under this model would likely only have 40 pg.
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Posted - 2014.04.07 03:31:00 -
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The shimmer effect under certain lighting conditions would be more of a technical fix that will involve more things than just balance.
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Posted - 2014.04.08 00:04:00 -
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Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles
Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted.
Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy.
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Posted - 2014.04.09 12:49:00 -
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Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted. Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy. Just because there are a lot of QQ cloak threads dosnt mean they are broken,not working as intended, or OP, the reason for the generation of daily cloak qq threads is due to the proliferation of NEW content ,lots of people want to use it so you see lots of cloaked dudes and lots of qq whiny babies getting murked by new stuff and then create op this, nerf that threads. IGNORE THE QQ CLOAKS ARE FINE
Sure similar to how new HAVs are...
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:04:00 -
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Ares 514 wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted. Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy. The more you post the more I dislike your decision making. Seriously? Bitching about cloaks on forums equals it needs fixing? The same people were posting multiple threads and in those threads multiple people often disagreed with them. The vocal few on the forums should not always be listened to. Listen to the few that give solid arguments not the idiots that QQ. Why don't you do something useful like the guy suggested.
and yet on the heels of the QQ; are the ones WITH Solid arguments.
and Ill extend the advice to you as well why don't you make yourself useful by posting something constructive to the entire conversation.
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Posted - 2014.04.09 18:54:00 -
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Ares 514 wrote:
I have multiple times. Much better then the dribble that you spew out.
Really?
Ares 514 wrote:
I guess my issue is where the heck were these threads asking for input for the four months of tank BS.
I guess my issue is I don't yet see it being OP.
A minor imbalance at best.
Seriously I don't get it.
So if you take that into consideration I think your wrong.
I'm glad you like a horrible idea.
Tanks have to be careful?
What I hear now that you don't see people bitching about is the heavies.
It was wasted.
The more you post the more I dislike your decision making.
I have multiple times. Much better then the dribble that you spew out.
Stop trying to protect your new favorite toy at any cost and maybe you can seem a bit more reasonable to me and before you accuse me of skimming posts you have posted several dozen times in evidence of doing so yourself; which unfortunately requires me to read your posts.
I find your information nearly useless. You make statements nothing more; do don't get into the nuts and bolts of the conversation in most of your posts. Others delve into the whys, hows and whats and dig deeper with every reply you however are refusing to dig.
This is after all a conversation aimed at arming the cpm with knowledge about the whole nature of cloaks from all sides of the arguments.
Thus yesmen to poor design like yourself are nearly absolutely useless in this discussion.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.04.09 19:34:00 -
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Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:leave cloaks as they are, they work well and changing anything will more than likly ruin them forever, They aren broken so dont wast time trying to fix them. How about you CPM get us some new game modes and maps or the rest of the racial vehicles Number of threads generated a daily suggests otherwise... And the majority if I was to use such base means wants cloaks deleted. Also I am not a game designer; nor product owner, I cannot dictate development energy. Just because there are a lot of QQ cloak threads dosnt mean they are broken,not working as intended, or OP, the reason for the generation of daily cloak qq threads is due to the proliferation of NEW content ,lots of people want to use it so you see lots of cloaked dudes and lots of qq whiny babies getting murked by new stuff and then create op this, nerf that threads. IGNORE THE QQ CLOAKS ARE FINE Sure similar to how new HAVs are... no its not similar at all, av was too weak to kill a tank quick enough, sort of a problem but not really if you use a tank for av. there is nothing wrong with cloaks and there are viable counters to it, so, tell me how its similar to havs other than all the QQ whinner threads? Also why are you the only cpm to have an opinion on this in this thread it dosnt seem like the others care either way, partly because this is a non-issue im sure, why cant you guys come together and dicuss something usefull like how dust needs pve to grow a successfull playerbase and how to get that point across to ccp? You guys are our community reps andi know for a fact that the majority ofthe community wants pve so do something about it instead of pushing non-issues
Why am I the only CPM...
I'll be frank; they're busy with bigger fish (which has nothing to do with game design/features/or generally the game itself.) and despite me being involved as well I still manage to squeeze out time to do some rounds of the forums. I dont have time to find the 40 pages of cloaks and read them all. CPM are involved elsewhere and are still highly approachable irc and skype channels are a bristle with many types of topics there is also private convos and mails. Or even better at times through your corp leaders and alliance leaders that are in contact with the CPM as most of those folks that are in considerably easier to work with. However based on what is discussed here the hecklers wouldn't find themselves welcomed by the resident bitter vet on skype and IRC whose passionate hatred for the cloak will only **** you off further into a driveling mess.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.04.09 19:35:00 -
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Ares 514 wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ares 514 wrote:
I have multiple times. Much better then the dribble that you spew out.
Really? Ares 514 wrote:
I guess my issue is where the heck were these threads asking for input for the four months of tank BS.
I guess my issue is I don't yet see it being OP.
A minor imbalance at best.
Seriously I don't get it.
So if you take that into consideration I think your wrong.
I'm glad you like a horrible idea.
Tanks have to be careful?
What I hear now that you don't see people bitching about is the heavies.
It was wasted.
The more you post the more I dislike your decision making.
I have multiple times. Much better then the dribble that you spew out.
Stop trying to protect your new favorite toy at any cost and maybe you can seem a bit more reasonable to me and before you accuse me of skimming posts you have posted several dozen times in evidence of doing so yourself; which unfortunately requires me to read your posts. I find your information nearly useless. You make statements nothing more; do don't get into the nuts and bolts of the conversation in most of your posts. Others delve into the whys, hows and whats and dig deeper with every reply you however are refusing to dig. This is after all a conversation aimed at arming the cpm with knowledge about the whole nature of cloaks from all sides of the arguments. Thus yesmen to poor design like yourself are nearly absolutely useless in this discussion. Great cherry picking. So what about that first one about tanks?! Most of my points have been deal with the real issues, not minor ones at best. Instead, you wander off on your own little tangent and ignore the MANY real issues. Whatever, you have your little battle. Who cares about vehicle spam, vehicle imbalance, PC ISK printing, the OP logi's that went on for over a year that you never commented on. The OP weapons that have come and gone while you twiddled your thumbs. Don't remember you ever commenting on those. Way to fight the good fight.
I am the most proficient poster on the forums; good luck reading all of my posts.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.04.09 20:03:00 -
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Yan Darn wrote:@ keno trader - You're pretty much saying what I'm thinking regarding the cloaks usefulness. Paul Ellinas wrote:Before 1.8 nobody had a problem with SG becouse you needed real skill to get close.The main opinion was he got close enough with SG he earned the kill. After 1.8 it mutch easier to get close enough to use the SG and mor common. That's why the talk about SG is happening now.
Proficency nerf was for most weapons in 1.8. Fact is CCP will nerf the SG like they did with the LR,FL,RR. They count how many times the x weapon made a kill against y weapon. This is...like exactly what I'm talking about  Cloaks make it easier for cloaked scouts to get into shotgun range. Ok. So, imagine there was an animation delay between decloaking and shooting - wouldn't that ease the situation? Imagine there was increased shimmer when sprinting (but less shimmer when walking) - wouldn't that ease the situation? More ways to detect cloaked scouts -wouldn't that ease the situation? I mean...you kinda said it yourself, that if you were to nerf the shotgun, it would have to be in an intelligent way - I don't understand why any kind of direct nerf to the shotgun itself is intelligent solution to this particular...'problem'. It's because of this kind of talk I'd rather have cloaks removed at this point - if CCP even listens to a fraction of some of the scoutphobic talk going on in the forums, we're not even going to have the effectiveness of 1.7 (or less) scouts by the end of it. That's as much an admonishment of CCP as much as anyone else - they have't exactly proven themselves as proficient in this 'rebalance' thing.
You however run into the new problem of destroying meta.
Why run shotgun without cloak?
Scouts would adapt to the breach shotgun and may even stack damage mods.
Other's have pointed out that militia performance is pretty powerful as is (goes back to now the years old argument that the differential in base and protoshotties was too small)
The list goes on to create hundreds of more problems to nearly obscure the shotgun back out of existence again after the long struggle to just get it to being an acceptable weapon.
Even if you manage to 'fairly' nerf the shotgun you're now having players shifting to weapons of the highest damage compression; so that means weapons such as the SMG and Magsec which last I checked nearly killed every suit out there before they had a chance to fully turn around. Then of course; mass driver, grenades, and just about any other light weapon that can kill within a 180 are suspect which means all automatics and semiautomatics as well.
Also the shotgun was already nerfed this patch for end game players and they're still not fond of it.
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Posted - 2014.04.09 22:45:00 -
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Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam.
Starts hack in one of those nook capture points;
turn around
wait
profit.
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Posted - 2014.04.09 23:59:00 -
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anaboop wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam. Starts hack in one of those nook capture points; turn around wait profit. Exactly, its the same with remotes, start hack or throw nade move away then go again, does that make remotes spineless? Lol. All it takes is a simple 180 or another person to watch your back, that knows that going for the hack points can get u both killed. Obtaining the objective is better then a 100wp , even if u die protecting the hacker, those few extra seconds make or break the obtained objective.
problem is it works on more often on non cloaked targets.
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Posted - 2014.04.11 23:30:00 -
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Onesimus Tarsus wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Clone D wrote:Playing against cloaked enemies is as fun as playing with redline snipers. They are so spineless that they still wait until you are hacking and sneak up behind you, cloaked, and then blam. Starts hack in one of those nook capture points; turn around wait profit. So, wait, it keeps hacking when you turn around? I DID NOT KNOW THAT!!!!
No but starting the hack tricks people into checking the console out making sure its okay. A variation is to stat the hack walk out of the nook and watch a guy round the corner and blind shoot into the nook thinking there is a scout there.
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Posted - 2014.04.12 11:46:00 -
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Adipem Nothi wrote:Alldin Kan wrote:I just got here and all but... Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Off the table.
*Cloak Charge bar being externally altered by other players. Why the **** should this not happen? By "Off the Table" I think he means cannot be implemented via HotFix. Slow Drain of reserves when under fire has been suggested. Depletion of reserves when fluxed has been suggested.
That is what exactly I meant.
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Posted - 2014.04.12 12:52:00 -
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Athena Sentinel wrote:
...Stuff...
Nerfing the cloak Nerfs the Nano knifes again (so sad).
All those NERFS... Scouts will be the same as pre 1.8
You do realize the new slot layout and second equipment slot how immensely deadly a scout can still be if he decided to go oh say dual REs instead or RE and uplink... I mean I am sure that I am not the only pre-1.8 scout around here that had to suffer and get good with pre 1.78 scouts and being omni meant my scout suit was stuck at basic and yet I still managed on a normal match to break even on kdr. One equipment and nearly half of the module power type of nerf is what it will take to reduce the scout back to the old crooked self and that isn't happening. Combined with TTK adjustments AND new slot layouts; deleting cloaks (a highly popular option and opinion sadly) would not even remotely come close to nerfing a scout pre 1.8.
Cloak timers are not fine; I have been getting various complaints on several aspects including the prototype cloak at 80 seconds 40 to restart (which is 1 per 1) being a massive hamper in some situations and that it is far more efficient to run the basic 30 second cloak instead where recloak is at 10 (which is 1.5 seconds of cloak per 1 recharge). These complaints of course originate from users of the cloak of course the best way of solving these is getting variants in and tweaking around with it and playing with the numbers to make a short endurance combat cloak and a long endurance infiltration cloak.
Now as for the timer and why its more attractive to go after is because it is a smooth system; its not clunky cumbersome or bothersome. A forced delayed re-cloak as often suggested without additional UI work is absolutely terrible. Also I think going after the charge time is far better to purposed nerfs of zeroing out the charge at decloak forcing a 10-40 second wait to re-cloak. Also these interrupt behaviors I doubt cannot be incorporated via hotfix.
As for scanners there are other issues clouding this argument up mostly the scanners being buggy; the bottom line the scan system is far far far too binary. Needs to gain depth and dynamics. I would like to see sensors shift to a time vs strength based one instead of the current black or white system. For now if you really want to dodge all scanners you need to not only fit a cloak but damps as well with the cloak. This is something quite a few scouts I am running to on the field are NOT doing; but like I said scanners are suffering from a few issues that is muddling up the early results of the dampener effect on the cloak itself. Also who said scouts must be stealthy? There are other classes that stealth up as a defense.
As for the noise level and decloak speed I highly doubt its going to stop the cloak complaints. True fixing the bug will be nice but it will do little to stop the complaints; proof in point I recently got hate mail as a scout shotgunning a player in the back and he accused me of being associated with the likes of a cloaky donkey dog child. The problem is; this scout fit has no cloak installed but instead scan amps and damps which is nearly as effective as a cloak at times. Heck the whole shinobi event taught me anything over the course of 70+ knife kills people ARE BLIND. I should not be able to run in your front 30 degree a good 10-20 feet and stab you in the face without a shot in your response to me but I did it anyways for some of my kills.
Caldari DID NOT INVENT STEALTH BOMBERS; Duvolle Labs from the Gallente Federation did after a rival company, Cerodon, lost out the assault frigate bid to Rhoden Yards/Allotek Industries with their modified Tristans which where far too big for the job and where almost classed as a destroyer. Duvolle bought them all at bargain and converted the former drone bays into torpedo bays and the nemesis was met with high amounts of praise for the project leader that saved the company on what might have been a rather highly expensive research project. Other empires followed suit and matched the roles with their own variants. Caldari invented Electronic Attack Ships and were forced by Concord Mandate to share the technology with the other empires despite trying to claim it as a similar departure as their scorpion class battleship.
Also Nano Knife?
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Posted - 2014.04.12 13:25:00 -
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And this is where a shotgun or mass driver becomes useful right about now.
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Posted - 2014.04.12 21:36:00 -
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Athena Sentinel wrote:
Iron Wolf Saber - I hope you comment back.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2048231#post2048231
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Posted - 2014.04.12 21:37:00 -
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One Eyed King wrote:For the most part, I think we are getting ahead of the game here in terms of coming up with cloak adjustments before the bugs and kinks are worked out. Cloaks are not entirely working as intended, and we should really hope CCP focuses on making those fixes before even considering the discussion.
At this point, we are all just taking shots in the dark as to how cloaks will work post bug fixes. Quite frankly, I think that adjusting the decloak issue, whether it be faster decloak or inability to use a weapon until fully decloaked, and fixing tacnet will go a long ways towards fixing any perceived problems.
Thing is though we can easily simulate the scenarios where cloaks are working as they should. So by definition none of the problems plaguing the cloak are 'game breaking'
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Posted - 2014.04.12 22:29:00 -
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Adipem Nothi wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Thing is though we can easily simulate the scenarios where cloaks are working as they should. So by definition none of the problems plaguing the cloak are 'game breaking'
So ... In Category A, we have broken things like AV, Tanks, Assault Bonuses, etc. In Category B, we have make-believe broken things, namely Cloak.
More like
Category A - A problem that is so consistently broken that intended game play is unfathomable at the time until corrected.
Previously Shotgun hit detection was one such topic of constant discussion that falls into this category. Problems in this category are typically unopposed to get fixed by the community. Currently Plasma Cannons are in this category considering there is an 'explosive occlusion problem that may be attributed to the serious underperformance of the weapon'. While it may be possible to get the 'as intended hit' every so often its so rare that most of us would chock it up to luck or poor fittings on the sob just nailed. The explosive occlusion problem is also hiding how OP a grenade or flux can be BUT without the effects of the fix being known pre-emptively trying to fix those is a useless effort.
Category B - A problem that can be simulated and at times observed to be in proper working order. This is typically the more difficult ones to fix because people from all angels disagree if its working or not. This is the majority of the current balance issues.
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Posted - 2014.04.14 01:55:00 -
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One Eyed King wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:One Eyed King wrote:For the most part, I think we are getting ahead of the game here in terms of coming up with cloak adjustments before the bugs and kinks are worked out. Cloaks are not entirely working as intended, and we should really hope CCP focuses on making those fixes before even considering the discussion.
At this point, we are all just taking shots in the dark as to how cloaks will work post bug fixes. Quite frankly, I think that adjusting the decloak issue, whether it be faster decloak or inability to use a weapon until fully decloaked, and fixing tacnet will go a long ways towards fixing any perceived problems.
Thing is though we can easily simulate the scenarios where cloaks are working as they should. So by definition none of the problems plaguing the cloak are 'game breaking' It also appears that a lot of people are simulating ways in which the cloak is still broken, i.e. shotgunning while still visibly concealed. Since this seems to be a major concern for many of those who claim the cloak is broken or OP, especially given that CCP directly stated that those that are cloaked will not be able to fire. I don't trust that enough of the community will appreciate that fixing this issue will go a long ways towards alleviating those instances in which they see the cloak as OP, in which case they normally request knee jerk reactions such as eliminating the cloak entirely. I also don't trust that those who are currently abusing the cloak have a vested interest in the scout role or playstyle such that they could care less if a nuclear nerf is dropped on the suit, again. By truly fixing the issues first, particularly the decloaking issue, you will find fewer people abusing it and fewer people raging at the abuse, and we can move towards a better place than simply theorycrafting and hoping it all works out. I am tired of the nerf-buff-nerf cycle.
I am as well but its a necessary evil; what we should strive for is tweak level adjustments instead of nuke level adjustments.
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Posted - 2014.04.14 01:56:00 -
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Seymor Krelborn wrote:I stopped reading at the "I feel the brick tank issue is bigger" statement. once again you prove with your own words you don't belong on the cpm.... I don't care how bicked your tank is, right now a cloaked scout with one well placed shotty burst to the head nullifies that issue and there is no counter to it.... cpm1 cant come soon enough and I will be praying to my golden cow you aren't on it..... 
I can't trust a community that doesn't read the whole conversation.
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Posted - 2014.04.14 01:59:00 -
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Vrain Matari wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Thing is though we can easily simulate the scenarios where cloaks are working as they should. So by definition none of the problems plaguing the cloak are 'game breaking'
So ... In Category A, we have broken things like AV, Tanks, Assault Bonuses, etc. In Category B, we have make-believe broken things, namely Cloak. More like Category A - A problem that is so consistently broken that intended game play is unfathomable at the time until corrected. Previously Shotgun hit detection was one such topic of constant discussion that falls into this category. Problems in this category are typically unopposed to get fixed by the community. Currently Plasma Cannons are in this category considering there is an 'explosive occlusion problem that may be attributed to the serious underperformance of the weapon'. While it may be possible to get the 'as intended hit' every so often its so rare that most of us would chock it up to luck or poor fittings on the sob just nailed. The explosive occlusion problem is also hiding how OP a grenade or flux can be BUT without the effects of the fix being known pre-emptively trying to fix those is a useless effort. Category B - A problem that can be simulated and at times observed to be in proper working order. This is typically the more difficult ones to fix because people from all angels disagree if its working or not. This is the majority of the current balance issues. This is news to me. Wasn't aware that there still was an occlusion problem. I thought the explosion occlusion problem was solved with the mass driver fix. Is different code handling explosions on different weapons?
All explosives are seemingly still subject to it. I don't know the logic that determines if an explosion hits you or not but its still been observed that a 2 inch hill can provide sufficient cover for equipment and even infantry at times from some of your larger explosive weapons. Which is rather odd you think the shorter ranged explosives would suffer the most.
Is explosive occlusion necessary? Yes prevents explosives from killing you while you're hiding behind walls. Last thing we need is wall shoot throughs being a bit inconsistent and not a well advertised/expected mechanic in the game.
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Posted - 2014.04.14 03:30:00 -
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Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Seymor Krelborn wrote:I stopped reading at the "I feel the brick tank issue is bigger" statement. once again you prove with your own words you don't belong on the cpm.... I don't care how bicked your tank is, right now a cloaked scout with one well placed shotty burst to the head nullifies that issue and there is no counter to it.... cpm1 cant come soon enough and I will be praying to my golden cow you aren't on it..... I can't trust a Game Developer community that doesn't read the whole conversation. fixed half a year wasted on scanners and cloaks and even more time wasted to balance them the conversation was ignored the conversation was give us MORE maps the conversation was give us MORE game modes the sad part? easy to balance maps and modes are preferable to two unbalanced toys real tired of zero new content game modes and haveing ambush, skirmish , single letter skirmish, ambush, skirmish, single letter skirmish, ambush, skirmish, single letter skirmish ......MEH!!
Well you're at a constant advantage over me because I know reasons why as t things are not getting done and yet I cannot share.
Just working on what could change; letting CCP figure out when they can change other things at their best convenience. and no yelling at ccp more doesn't make them go any faster if anything it shuts them up even more.
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