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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 25 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1379	Posted - 2014.05.22 06:56:00 - [1] - Quote We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the only viable (PC) meta? Go! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5391	Posted - 2014.05.22 06:59:00 - [2] - Quote You're going to have to change more than one stat. You pretty much have to rework every scout. This isn't just about the gallente scout. It's about ALL scouts. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2482	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:01:00 - [3] - Quote rebalance Active Scanners' Precision to be competitive with Medium Frames, not automatically negating the possibility of a medium frame using profile dampeners cut off 5% percent from Precision Enhancers Both would need to change. Gallente Logistics with Active Scanner and Caldari Scout with 4 complex precision enhancers needs to change. Neither should be able to get below 19dB Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 21	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:01:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the only viable (PC) meta? Go! keep the dampening on cloak and change the gallente dampening bonus to something else. example gallente cloak duration bonus per level to go with the shorter cloak duration nerf. keeps all the other scouts free and clear of a MAJOR nerf and nerfs the gallente inviso BRICK TANK

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1382	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:05:00 - [5] - Quote 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2482	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:07:00 - [6] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the only viable (PC) meta? Go! 1 stat? Drop all suit profile by 5 points. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5391	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:07:00 - [7] - Quote You're going to have to change the Caldari bonus and the gal logi bonus as well. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2483	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:09:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus 1) No. This does not help balance the other Scouts. it only hurts Gallente Scouts 2) This is a terrible idea. What the hell happened to the "Don't force scouts to use the cloak" idea that we were desperate and asked the CPM to show the absolute level of need for? Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 21	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:12:00 - [9] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus 1) No. This does not help balance the other Scouts. it only hurts Gallente Scouts 2) This is a terrible idea. What the hell happened to the "Don't force scouts to use the cloak" idea that we were desperate and asked the CPM to show the absolute level of need for? If your relying on the cloak for your dampening then you are already forced to use it.
Oswald Rehnquist 1380	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:14:00 - [10] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: You're going to have to change more than one stat. You pretty much have to rework every scout. This isn't just about the gallente scout. It's about ALL scouts. You have to think about how this cloaking change will effect EVERY scout. Do not balance around pubs and general laziness. Balance around a competitive environment where people will counter something. If every scout can be countered easily then no one will run e-war. Previously scouts were practically useless in PC because the tacnet system in this game is ridiculous. A scanned scout is a dead scout. If every scout can be scanned there is no point in running scout because it has no role. Entirely this, its going to require an entire rethinking of scouts, otherwise its just tolerating the fact that its gal scout or no scout, which I know is what you are not wanting to hear. If a scout variant can't beat a scan, its not going to survive, auto detect installations are a perfect example of non functional scouts, and you could see those. Below 28 dB

Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2483	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:16:00 - [11] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: You're going to have to change more than one stat. You pretty much have to rework every scout. This isn't just about the gallente scout. It's about ALL scouts. You have to think about how this cloaking change will effect EVERY scout. Do not balance around pubs and general laziness. Balance around a competitive environment where people will counter something. If every scout can be countered easily then no one will run e-war. Previously scouts were practically useless in PC because the tacnet system in this game is ridiculous. A scanned scout is a dead scout. If every scout can be scanned there is no point in running scout because it has no role. Entirely this, its going to require an entire rethinking of scouts, otherwise its just tolerating the fact that its gal scout or no scout, which I know is what you are not wanting to hear. If a scout variant can't beat a scan, its not going to survive, auto detect installations are a perfect example of non functional scouts, and you could see those. I always loved that. "Why is that turret firing in at nothing?" wait a few seconds "Oh, that's why!" catch a momentary glance of the blue light of a cloak before the blaster Instillation gets a kill Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Oswald Rehnquist 1380	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:16:00 - [12] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: You're going to have to change more than one stat. You pretty much have to rework every scout. This isn't just about the gallente scout. It's about ALL scouts. You have to think about how this cloaking change will effect EVERY scout. Do not balance around pubs and general laziness. Balance around a competitive environment where people will counter something. If every scout can be countered easily then no one will run e-war. Previously scouts were practically useless in PC because the tacnet system in this game is ridiculous. A scanned scout is a dead scout. If every scout can be scanned there is no point in running scout because it has no role. Entirely this, its going to require an entire rethinking of scouts, otherwise its just tolerating the fact that its gal scout or no scout, which I know is what you are not wanting to hear. If a scout variant can't beat a scan, its not going to survive, auto detect installations are a perfect example of non functional scouts, and you could see those. Below 28 dB
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2854	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:19:00 - [13] - Quote To be honest, CCP Rattati: Apply the changes, but be very ready to reverse them if it fails. This is how you do lean development right? :) This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Oswald Rehnquist 1381	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:24:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus The problem is that 1.8 really balanced each scout with each other, I mean the numbers were flawlessly reflected off of each other, but it was built like a house of cards, you pull one and it comes falling down. Currently in supremacy is 1) Gal 2) Cal 3) Min/Ama What this post is asking here is what scout do we want to be the op scout, the gal scout or the caldari scout? If you nerf the gallente, then its cal scout or go home. If you don't touch anything right now, its gal scout or go home. Below 28 dB
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5396	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:25:00 - [15] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: To be honest, CCP Rattati: Apply the changes, but be very ready to reverse them if it fails. This is how you do lean development right? :) No, they should definitely not do that. They balance things all willy nilly and random as hell with what seems to be as little thought as possible as it is. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2483	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:27:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the only viable (PC) meta? Go! Right here is the problem. It seems to me that you took "Hotfix Alpha" from the pub match perspective. The problems and issues that people run into the most often are not guaranteed to be the same as the issues people complain the most, or loudest, about. While catering to the pub stompers' will you would take away the utility of a suit that offends them the most. EWAR is not balanced at this point in time. Taking away the dampening from cloaks is going to destroy the entire system. By giving the other Scouts a lower profile you remove the need for the cloak dampening bonus, BUT at the same time you negate the use of Precision enhancers from Amarr, Gallente, and Minmatar Scouts as they can no longer make use of them. By increasing the precision on scout suits... you make Logistics better at passive scan detection compared to Scouts because Logistics suits have more slots. By Decreasing the effectiveness of precision enhancers... Caldari scouts will be the only ones to use them because without the suit bonus the modules are no longer effective. You can't remove the dampening bonus to Cloaks. It is far too important to the balance of EWAR without completely restructuring the whole system from the ground up Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Haerr Legio DXIV 654	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:28:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus Anyone of these (alone without any other modifications) is a horrible idea which puts us right back into 1.7 where scouts were being perma scanned (bar a gal scout with 4 dampeners). Removing the dampening bonus from cloaks will make EWAR a static check, without any 'waves of opportunity'. Much akin to changing active hardeners on vehicles to passive resistance modules. Recap: Option 1) Gallente Scout need 3 dampeners to not be perma scanned. Option 1) Other Scouts need 4 dampeners to not be perma scanned. Option 2) Scouts need 4 dampeners to not be perma scanned. While I appreciate the need for an adjustment to cloaks & dampening, this just isn't it. If you show that you are at least a little bit flexible by coming up with more options then I will make an effort to get better feedback for you otherwise what's the point in even trying? I have Plasma Cannon Proficiency V, no jk.
THUNDERGROOVE The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 782	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:29:00 - [18] - Quote As already stated, the problem isn't directly with the Gallente it's the Amarr/Minmatar scouts. Both, in a competitive environment will need dampeners. For Amarr they loose a lot of tank/speed. Min will loose on their speed/hackspeed. Gallente gets a free complex dampener plus the skill bonus. They also get a free enhanced armor repair meaning they get even more free low slots for speed/tank/damps/range. Trying to get under Caldari/Gallente passive scans have pretty much gotten me to give up. It's not even worth trying to run dampeners because your suit is either setup to see me cloaked or it's not. EWAR is broken beyond repair without making massive changes. There needs to be scan degradation over range and some sort of threshold whether scans should be shared. If I'm 1 DB over your it shouldn't be shared. If I'm 10 then go ahead. If I'm 2 DB over your passives and 50 meters away you should not see me through three walls. I'd almost prefer all shared scans be only line of sight based. TDBS Fight heavy spam with plasma cannons!
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 812	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:30:00 - [19] - Quote Remind me again what the Gal logistics bonus is for, if not for scanning scouts down? Dust/Eve transfers
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 22	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:37:00 - [20] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus The problem is that 1.8 really balanced each scout with each other, I mean the numbers were flawlessly reflected off of each other, but it was built like a house of cards, you pull one and it comes falling down. Currently in supremacy is 1) Gal 2) Cal 3) Min/Ama What this post is asking here is what scout do we want to be the op scout, the gal scout or the caldari scout? If you nerf the gallente, then its cal scout or go home. If you don't touch anything right now, its gal scout or go home. the only reason its gal scout or go home is gal has more options like BRICK TANKING while remaining invisible to tac-net. keeping the cloak dampening and changing the gal scout bonus would force the gal use 2 slots to be invisible to tac-net and nerfs some of its options. doing so would also make the other scouts more in line. the cal scout will have a better chance of detecting the gal scout and the amar will be on equal footing to the gal because it will take the same dampeners to make it invisible to tac-net as the gal. same for min. the fact is the gal is just OP the other are close to being in line other than amar need a better bonus.

Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2487	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:38:00 - [21] - Quote Xx-VxF-xX wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus The problem is that 1.8 really balanced each scout with each other, I mean the numbers were flawlessly reflected off of each other, but it was built like a house of cards, you pull one and it comes falling down. Currently in supremacy is 1) Gal 2) Cal 3) Min/Ama What this post is asking here is what scout do we want to be the op scout, the gal scout or the caldari scout? If you nerf the gallente, then its cal scout or go home. If you don't touch anything right now, its gal scout or go home. the only reason its gal scout or go home is gal has more options like BRICK TANKING while remaining invisible to tac-net. keeping the cloak bonus and changing the gal scout bonus would force the gal use 2 slots to be invisible to tac-net and nerfs some of its options. doing so would also make the other scouts more in line. the cal scout will have a better chance of detecting the gal scout and the amar will be on equal footing to the gal because it will take the same dampeners to make it invisible to tac-net as the gal. same for min. the fact is the gal is just OP the other are close to being in line other than amar need a better bonus. This is EZ-mode pub match stuff. It is not PC meta. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5691	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:39:00 - [22] - Quote Scout's role is low visibility in the decisive use of cloaking devices. The Gallente's specialization in that role, is by having the least likely chance of being scanned. Removing the profile reduction on cloaks is a decent start if you're trying to encourage a sacrifice being made in defensive/offensive in favor of the ability to go un-scanned but by providing a broad-range nerf (removing profile reduction on cloaks) you're hitting all of the Scouts while the Gallente still remains in it's butter zone to some degree. As far as a single stat change? Not much you can really do as the only changes you can make are contrary to what your trying to accomplish. Just bear in mind that if you want specialization in order to accomplish both cloaking and a low profile (personally I think it should be one or the other) you're going to have to encourage the other scouts to be effective at their own specializations to the point they're tasty alternatives. That would mean buffing the other scouts in different areas, as opposed to just one stat. EDIT: Good luck accomplishing that with the Amarr Scout. ANOTHER EDIT: What I'm trying to say here is that if the Gallente Scout is the only viable option -WITH- the profile reduction on cloaks... It's still going to be afterward, unless you make changes to the other scouts that don't apply to it. Appia Vibbia wrote: Both would need to change. Gallente Logistics with Active Scanner and Caldari Scout with 4 complex precision enhancers needs to change. Neither should be able to get below 19dB Wanted to quoted this because I disagree, to an extent. If a Caldari Scout is fitting that many precision enhancers, he's making a severe sacrifice in order to be able to find those targets - thereby, he's a specialist with a high risk/reward playstyle. Active Scanner probably shouldn't be so powerful giving it's broad range without making sacrifices though, so I'll give you that. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
THUNDERGROOVE The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 783	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:43:00 - [23] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Wanted to quoted this because I disagree, to an extent. If a Caldari Scout is fitting that many precision enhancers, he's making a severe sacrifice in order to be able to find those targets - thereby, he's a specialist with a high risk/reward playstyle. It doesn't matter if you only have 200 shields if you can see every threat within 50-75 meters of you. TDBS Fight heavy spam with plasma cannons!
Oswald Rehnquist 1383	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:46:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus I kind of noticed that I didn't actually answer the question I presented. The gallente keeps the caldari in check (renders it useless), the caldari keeps the other two in check. If a decision is needed soon, and these are really our options and we are forced to decide between op gal scouts or op cal scouts, the game will be "healthier" if the op scout was the gal scout, and I say this as a cal scout user (who always loved the detector role). If anything is going to be changed, then changing the caldari racial would be the best way to do it. If you remove the caldari scout, the other two scouts would be able to breathe a little bit. Also it would render the ultility of the gallente dampener bonus to really only be used against gal logis, thus inadequately making the amarr scout's ability more useful for general purpose. Below 28 dB
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5691	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:47:00 - [25] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Wanted to quoted this because I disagree, to an extent. If a Caldari Scout is fitting that many precision enhancers, he's making a severe sacrifice in order to be able to find those targets - thereby, he's a specialist with a high risk/reward playstyle. It doesn't matter if you only have 200 shields if you can see every threat within 50-75 meters of you. I don't see a problem with it. Easily killed and the information only applies to him (no shared TacNet). Deal with the problem if it's a problem Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2487	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:47:00 - [26] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Both would need to change. Gallente Logistics with Active Scanner and Caldari Scout with 4 complex precision enhancers needs to change. Neither should be able to get below 19dB Wanted to quoted this because I disagree, to an extent. If a Caldari Scout is fitting that many precision enhancers, he's making a severe sacrifice in order to be able to find those targets - thereby, he's a specialist with a high risk/reward playstyle. Active Scanner probably shouldn't be so powerful giving it's broad range without making sacrifices though, so I'll give you that. So you're saying Minmatar Scouts should not be able to avoid detection because they can't equally invest the same number of low slots, so they aren't making an equal sacrifice? Because currently that is how the system is working without the cloak. Base values and stacking penalties keep this from being a fair system giving the Caldari scout an advantage that's impossible to overcome. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5691	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:57:00 - [27] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Both would need to change. Gallente Logistics with Active Scanner and Caldari Scout with 4 complex precision enhancers needs to change. Neither should be able to get below 19dB Wanted to quoted this because I disagree, to an extent. If a Caldari Scout is fitting that many precision enhancers, he's making a severe sacrifice in order to be able to find those targets - thereby, he's a specialist with a high risk/reward playstyle. Active Scanner probably shouldn't be so powerful giving it's broad range without making sacrifices though, so I'll give you that. So you're saying Minmatar Scouts should not be able to avoid detection because they can't equally invest the same number of low slots, so they aren't making an equal sacrifice? Because currently that is how the system is working without the cloak. Base values and stacking penalties keep this from being a fair system giving the Caldari scout an advantage that's impossible to overcome. As it should be, it's the Caldari Scout's specialization. Minmatar Scout isn't meant for bypassing that, it's meant for hacking and blading people in the face. Trying to make everything viable against a specialist who goes out of his way to be able to perform said specialization just devalues it and renders it effectively useless. Why would I want to fit so many precision enhancers knowing that the entire point of fitting them in the first place is arbitrary? It's one thing if the Active Scanner is doing it because it applies to everyone in squad, but it's completely different if someone dons a tooth necklace and decides to go hunting with a Caldari Scout. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
THUNDERGROOVE The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 784	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:57:00 - [28] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I don't see a problem with it. Easily killed and the information only applies to him (no shared TacNet). Deal with the problem if it's a problem The information applies to their entire squad and it's all dependent on the situation. In most cases I don't have too much trouble with Caldari scouts on their own since they're generally terrible(musthavwallh4x). The real problem ensues when he has 5 friends in his squad, usually all lol400armorand9metersprintGallente scouts. TDBS Fight heavy spam with plasma cannons!
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 23	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:00:00 - [29] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Xx-VxF-xX wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus The problem is that 1.8 really balanced each scout with each other, I mean the numbers were flawlessly reflected off of each other, but it was built like a house of cards, you pull one and it comes falling down. Currently in supremacy is 1) Gal 2) Cal 3) Min/Ama What this post is asking here is what scout do we want to be the op scout, the gal scout or the caldari scout? If you nerf the gallente, then its cal scout or go home. If you don't touch anything right now, its gal scout or go home. the only reason its gal scout or go home is gal has more options like BRICK TANKING while remaining invisible to tac-net. keeping the cloak bonus and changing the gal scout bonus would force the gal use 2 slots to be invisible to tac-net and nerfs some of its options. doing so would also make the other scouts more in line. the cal scout will have a better chance of detecting the gal scout and the amar will be on equal footing to the gal because it will take the same dampeners to make it invisible to tac-net as the gal. same for min. the fact is the gal is just OP the other are close to being in line other than amar need a better bonus. This is EZ-mode pub match stuff. It is not PC meta. oh sorry maybe i would be interested in PC meta if it was balanced. gallente is obviously the PC meta FOTM OP scout cal is the #2 PC meta FOTM OP scout take away the dampening on cloaking only moves the 2 higher on the OP tree and pushes the other farther down. sorry I want to help bring the gal down a level while at the same time bringing the amarr up a level keeping the others the same.
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2493	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:01:00 - [30] - Quote I am confused as to why Aeon Amadi thinks information is not shared through TacNet or why people would not have voice communication. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia

Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5691	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:02:00 - [31] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I don't see a problem with it. Easily killed and the information only applies to him (no shared TacNet). Deal with the problem if it's a problem The information applies to their entire squad and it's all dependent on the situation. In most cases I don't have too much trouble with Caldari scouts on their own since they're generally terrible(musthavwallh4x). The real problem ensues when he has 5 friends in his squad, usually all lol400armor200shieldsand9metersprintGallente scouts. Video evidence or it didn't happen, just saying - information YOU personally see on your minimap -does not get shared on TacNet- and it is, I'd call foul because it completely circumvents the benefit of the Active Scanner. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5691	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:03:00 - [32] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: I am confused as to why Aeon Amadi thinks information is not shared through TacNet or why people would not have voice communication. Teamwork -should- be OP but the information is genuinely not shared through TacNet, and hasn't been since the specifically made changes to TacNet to make Active Scanners more viable. Voice communication shouldn't be a problem because, again, teamwork should be OP. If one guy has to sacrifice all of his defensive capability to be a mobile radar for his bros then I don't see it as a problem, maybe communicate with your sniper to put a bullet in his dome? Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2493	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:05:00 - [33] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I don't see a problem with it. Easily killed and the information only applies to him (no shared TacNet). Deal with the problem if it's a problem The information applies to their entire squad and it's all dependent on the situation. In most cases I don't have too much trouble with Caldari scouts on their own since they're generally terrible(musthavwallh4x). The real problem ensues when he has 5 friends in his squad, usually all lol400armor200shieldsand9metersprintGallente scouts. Video evidence or it didn't happen, just saying - information YOU personally see on your minimap -does not get shared on TacNet- and it is, I'd call foul because it completely circumvents the benefit of the Active Scanner. ehhem. Mr. Amadi, it may have been some time since you last logged into DUST and/or played in a squad. Scout's passive scans (Though I personally suspect it was all suits) have been shared since 1.5 at the very least. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 361	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:05:00 - [34] - Quote the point of the gallante scout is not to be seen. the point of the caldari is to have good passive scans. there is no point to amar there is a slight point to matari, even though 2 lows, does not let them be the effective assassin/hacker Boost the proto dampening module to a higher percentage maybe? so other scouts could remain unseen to a certain extent? Or nerf the cal precision. once you make ferro/reactive plates worth using, and add a drawback to the basic/enhanced plates, the brick tanked scouts will primarily cease to exist. and perhaps if you even work on the shield extenders hp, so scouts wouldn't have to rely on their low slots for hp, but could instead focus on ewar. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2493	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:06:00 - [35] - Quote Would you like to log in right now, I'll gladly have you sit in a corner facing a wall as I use any of my 4 scouts to passively scan enemies for you to see. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
THUNDERGROOVE The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 786	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:06:00 - [36] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Video evidence or it didn't happen, just saying - information YOU personally see on your minimap -does not get shared on TacNet- and it is, I'd call foul because it completely circumvents the benefit of the Active Scanner. All passive scans are shared for your squad unless you're out of render distance of the person doing the passive scanning(~400 meters). It's how it's always worked, passive scanning was just far too weak in the past. Try running with a Caldari scout some time in your squad, you'll be like: Quote: Oh hey it's a cloaked scout that doesn't know I can see him. Over and over and over again. There's a reason why any good PC team pretty much begs for a Caldari scout in every squad. TDBS Fight heavy spam with plasma cannons!
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15163	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:07:00 - [37] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Both would need to change. Gallente Logistics with Active Scanner and Caldari Scout with 4 complex precision enhancers needs to change. Neither should be able to get below 19dB Wanted to quoted this because I disagree, to an extent. If a Caldari Scout is fitting that many precision enhancers, he's making a severe sacrifice in order to be able to find those targets - thereby, he's a specialist with a high risk/reward playstyle. Active Scanner probably shouldn't be so powerful giving it's broad range without making sacrifices though, so I'll give you that. So you're saying Minmatar Scouts should not be able to avoid detection because they can't equally invest the same number of low slots, so they aren't making an equal sacrifice? Because currently that is how the system is working without the cloak. Base values and stacking penalties keep this from being a fair system giving the Caldari scout an advantage that's impossible to overcome. As it should be, it's the Caldari Scout's specialization. Minmatar Scout isn't meant for bypassing that, it's meant for hacking and blading people in the face. Trying to make everything viable against a specialist who goes out of his way to be able to perform said specialization just devalues it and renders it effectively useless. Why would I want to fit so many precision enhancers knowing that the entire point of fitting them in the first place is arbitrary? It's one thing if the Active Scanner is doing it because it applies to everyone in squad, but it's completely different if someone dons a tooth necklace and decides to go hunting with a Caldari Scout. Minmatar specializes in flexibility; having options, and enough enough oumph,speed and resiliency, to overcome the general weakness of not being up to raw snuff. Just right now minmatar is suffering a bit from fittings which should be alleviated a bit to allow the flexibility portion of the game style. If anyone should be full brick tanking should be the minmatar and if they do it they're going to be terrible at it. Ultimately if you make specializations to similar you will wind up with a boring game. The choices people make are supposed to have weight and significance. If there is to be a solution for the lack of parity that solution would be more specializations; in other words move the minmatar and amarr into the real scout role and place everyone else in recon. However we're not in a position to be making new classes at the moment. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5691	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:09:00 - [38] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Would you like to log in right now, I'll gladly have you sit in a corner facing a wall as I use any of my 4 scouts to passively scan enemies for you to see. Yeah. Lemme get my video equipment set up. I want to see this. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Llast 326 An Arkhos 3179	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:14:00 - [39] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Minmatar specializes in flexibility; having options, and enough enough oumph,speed and resiliency, to overcome the general weakness of not being up to raw snuff. Just right now minmatar is suffering a bit from fittings which should be alleviated a bit to allow the flexibility portion of the game style. If anyone should be full brick tanking should be the minmatar and if they do it they're going to be terrible at it. Didn't notice anything about increasing the Min fitting capabilities in the notes from the other thread, but I know you have brought it up with the CCPowers that be. Any more info on this? Swing by the shop if you need a shave (or don't want to derail this discussion) KRRROOOOOOM
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15164	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:25:00 - [40] - Quote Move the bonus to effect modules??? (caldari would follow suit as well making all scouts module based bonuses) CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5694	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:31:00 - [41] - Quote Now that I've been thoroughly convinced. Re-evaluate the Scouts entirely. There needs to be more distinction between the Caldari Scout's role and the performance of the Active Scanner, it doesn't make sense for the two to have overlap and the entire reason the Active Scanner was nerfed was due to it's extreme power in the 'twirling' aspect. Active Scanners should be good for Range, Caldari Scouts for Precision. A Caldari Scout should be a good counter to a Gallente Scout but it shouldn't step on the toes of the Gallente Logistics in terms of general use. Hate to say it Rattati, but they're right; Scouts do need another overhaul. Caldari/Gallente are very powerful, the Minmatar Scout has the potential for it and the Amarr Scout is falling short. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2501	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:34:00 - [42] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Now that I've been thoroughly convinced. Re-evaluate the Scouts entirely. There needs to be more distinction between the Caldari Scout's role and the performance of the Active Scanner, it doesn't make sense for the two to have overlap and the entire reason the Active Scanner was nerfed was due to it's extreme power in the 'twirling' aspect. Active Scanners should be good for Range, Caldari Scouts for Precision. A Caldari Scout should be a good counter to a Gallente Scout but it shouldn't step on the toes of the Gallente Logistics in terms of general use. Hate to say it Rattati, but they're right; Scouts do need another overhaul. Caldari/Gallente are very powerful, the Minmatar Scout has the potential for it and the Amarr Scout is falling short. Best 2 million ISK I ever wasted, right here. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5695	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:39:00 - [43] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Now that I've been thoroughly convinced. Re-evaluate the Scouts entirely. There needs to be more distinction between the Caldari Scout's role and the performance of the Active Scanner, it doesn't make sense for the two to have overlap and the entire reason the Active Scanner was nerfed was due to it's extreme power in the 'twirling' aspect. Active Scanners should be good for Range, Caldari Scouts for Precision. A Caldari Scout should be a good counter to a Gallente Scout but it shouldn't step on the toes of the Gallente Logistics in terms of general use. Hate to say it Rattati, but they're right; Scouts do need another overhaul. Caldari/Gallente are very powerful, the Minmatar Scout has the potential for it and the Amarr Scout is falling short. Best 2 million ISK I ever wasted, right here. Wouldn't have had to waste it if we were provided accurate information from the start. TacNet is probably a prime example of lack of information to the general player-base. Can't ask someone to provide feedback/balance input on something they're not well informed of. Suffice to say, I'm a little pissed off that even after two years I still have to learn **** about this game. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2164	Posted - 2014.05.22 08:54:00 - [44] - Quote Eliminate caldari and gallente scan range bonus. Why those 2 scouts are so effective? Because they can permascan you at almost 40 meters, that is the real advantage of these 2 scout suits. Eliminate the bonus, so they need to fit a range amp, to see so far. I always run at least 1 complex profile dampener on my gal scout, sometime 2 if i notice that a cal scout can scan me. I usually don't tank HP, nerf dampening bonus would be the worst choice imo. Buff active scanners instead. PSN: ogamega I'm here to bla bla bla...
Oswald Rehnquist 1388	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:04:00 - [45] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Move the bonus to effect modules??? (caldari would follow suit as well making all scouts module based bonuses) should fix both gal brick and superior stealth in the same go. Not too bad, but it falls short, and I'll try to explain why. Here is Haers scanning table, as you can see it was balanced along with many other factors included the gal logi. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArOdomK1wfBOdE1vUU1VLXdrN1prYVBwdkw4VlB2cmc&usp=sharing I have my doubts you guys are going to really get the prevision/scanners v dampening game correct again with so few changes, especially when the goal is expediency more so than forethought. Not intended as an insult, but CCP had more resources the first time around. It is a rather complicated avenue, and you guys need to understand the current system, as I don't think you guys know how things were balanced previously. 1) The gallante needs to beat our the caldari in the scanning game. The reason why this is important is because a 4 precision modded cal scout will never catch a gal scout, thus its a pointless build for this purpose. This pressures the cal scout to run with less precision mods. 2) The cal scout is the counter to the other two scouts, who can't bypass his scans with his omniscience, but due to the decentives of the gal scout, the meta game then turns into running as few precision mods as possible. Enough to catch the other scouts but not too much to be wasted by getting toasted by a gal scout who you can't catch. With module based bonuses there is no number of precision mod meta, its will always be stack as many as you can. In which case it will either be A) other scouts can't bypass it, effectively keeping the other scouts out of the game, or B) other scouts can bypass it and thus cal scouts are worthless. And should these bonuses be cut too much to bring it to the middle, you also run the real danger of running towards an extremely boring middle, where no scout is really anything unique. I'm more inclined to maintain as much of the integrity of the well thought out system and just change the caldari racial. TL/DR: As it stands its going to be cal or gal unless you break that cycle, and the balancing between them is not going to fit nicely if you plan on trying to recreate that cycle, which was what the entire scout v scout gameplay was based on. Below 28 dB
Oswald Rehnquist 1388	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:06:00 - [46] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Now that I've been thoroughly convinced. Re-evaluate the Scouts entirely. There needs to be more distinction between the Caldari Scout's role and the performance of the Active Scanner, it doesn't make sense for the two to have overlap and the entire reason the Active Scanner was nerfed was due to it's extreme power in the 'twirling' aspect. Active Scanners should be good for Range, Caldari Scouts for Precision. A Caldari Scout should be a good counter to a Gallente Scout but it shouldn't step on the toes of the Gallente Logistics in terms of general use. Hate to say it Rattati, but they're right; Scouts do need another overhaul. Caldari/Gallente are very powerful, the Minmatar Scout has the potential for it and the Amarr Scout is falling short. Another aspect you off on, the gal scout is the counter to the cal scout, not the other way around, I elaborated on it on my response to IWS. Which is why changing the cal racial is the best band aid out there right now. Below 28 dB
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5697	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:22:00 - [47] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Eliminate caldari and gallente scan range bonus. Why those 2 scouts are so effective? Because they can permascan you at almost 40 meters, that is the real advantage of these 2 scout suits. Eliminate the bonus, so they need to fit a range amp, to see so far. I always run at least 1 complex profile dampener on my gal scout, sometime 2 if i notice that a cal scout can scan me. I usually don't tank HP, nerf dampening bonus would be the worst choice imo. Buff active scanners instead. Disagree. We're actually having a pretty long argument about this in Skype but I personally don't think Active Scanners should be some end-all thing against Scouts. As I've said. Active Scanners, and by default the Gallente Logi, should be a general purpose squad-level method of information gathering. The Caldari Scout should be used for precision hunting of targets that dip below the range of the Active Scanners to create a Specialist vs Specialist niche in the game. Both are in the same field of play but with unique uses for both. As far as the Focused Active Scanner, I personally think that it's a problem because it bleeds too much into the Caldari Scout's specialization. At Level 5 a Gallente Logi has an Active Scanner that has 15db precision, which is pretty hard for anything to overcome. I personally just think it's bad whenever a single piece of equipment is comparable a Lvl 5 Caldari Scout with four complex precision enhancers (14.91db) I'd personally like to see the Caldari Scout's range reduced and there's a few ways to go about that: Remove the range bonus on the Cal/Gal Scout suits, change the base range, change the bonus of range amplifiers, etc. I personally prefer changes to Range Amplifiers because it's kind of stupid that a complex amplifier provides a 45% increase for only 33 CPU and 0 PG. Precision Enhancers are also kind of cheap on the fitting costs but, like I said, range is the primary issue with the Caldari Scout, imo. Same with (some) Active Scanners. Range or Precision - one or the other. Too much overlap at the moment. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 812	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:23:00 - [48] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Eliminate caldari and gallente scan range bonus. This would alleviate the problem a fair bit. Dust/Eve transfers
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2166	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:30:00 - [49] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: As far as the Focused Active Scanner, I personally think that it's a problem because it bleeds too much into the Caldari Scout's specialization. At Level 5 a Gallente Logi has an Active Scanner that has 15db precision, which is pretty hard for anything to overcome. I personally just think it's bad whenever a single piece of equipment is comparable a Lvl 5 Caldari Scout with four complex precision enhancers (14.91db) You can't compare a scanner that can scan everything for 5 seconds and have a 40 seconds cooldown with a suit that can permascan everything (except ultradampened gal scouts). BTW, cal and gal scouts are balanced between them, if you use 4 precision enhacers on a cal, you have to use 3 dampeners on a gal and there is no room for a lot of HP, in both the scout suits. PSN: ogamega I'm here to bla bla bla...
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 245	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:31:00 - [50] - Quote They should remove the squad sharing passive scans (as was the idea in the first place), along with proposed changes. Then we can't speak about perma scans anymore since only the scout would be able to see him. If the scout wants to relay this information to his squad (even if they are right next to him), he would have to equip a active scanner to "paint" the target.

Garth Mandra The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 388	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:32:00 - [51] - Quote Removing the bonus from cloaks is a good change in my opinion. This is a chance and it will shake up the meta and will undoubtedly unearth and create new unbalances but I think it's an improvement. If you absolutely can't stand the change at the very least reduce the dampening bonus on cloaks and make them progress with tier. Something like 10% for standard, 15% for advanced and 20% for proto.
Valko Maddog The Awesome Gang 1	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:35:00 - [52] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the only viable (PC) meta? Go! all the discussions here are how to make the game from 60%scouts to 100%scouts and to remove the other classes. All scouts are still invisible to assaults even without dampeners. there is only one active scanner that goes below 21 and it costs 30K and has recharge of 40sec and scan duration of 7.5 and this only if it is in the hands of gal logi. and a logi suit cost double the scout. There are not anymore gal logies as they have the worst bonus after the scanner nerf. also scanners do not scan on 180 degree anymore. a scanned scout is a dead scout if he/she plays alone. Oh I forgot all scout players are playing alone currently even a scanned scout scout can kill a logi or assault due to faster speed/ strafing and enough HP. If the active scanner can scan gal scout it will give similar benefit to gal scout as the gal scout can have in his/her team also a gal logi. cal scout cannot see a gal scout, but a gal scout cannot see a cal scout as well. and what is the solution for min and amarr scouts? An increase of basic scan profile to 40 could be an easy and simple solution.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1401	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:43:00 - [53] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: shaman oga wrote: Eliminate caldari and gallente scan range bonus. This would alleviate the problem a fair bit. Please elaborate "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1401	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:44:00 - [54] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: They should remove the squad sharing passive scans (as was the idea in the first place) I need to follow up on this internally "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5697	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:45:00 - [55] - Quote Too many people to respond to. Anyway, as in my edit I re-evaluated some of my perspectives and while I still think that Active Scanners should focus on Range and Caldari Scouts should focus on precision, there have been some interesting suggestions. I don't think it's necessary to remove shared passive scan, but I do think that the Caldari Scout does have too much range for it's precision. It's a mobile radar that never goes away, which is a problem. A problem that could be easily tweaked by removing the range bonus on the Caldari Scout, but if you're going to do that you might as well remove it from the Gallente Scout because it contributes nothing to it's specialization of dipping under TacNet. You could change the base range, but then you'd be singling the Caldari Scout out and giving the Gallente Scout even more range than it does. So, there's that. EDIT: To elaborate more for CCP Rattati, I think the general concensus is that the Caldari Scout having the capabilities of such a low precision (as low as 15db) accompanied by a high range (50-75m) is completely usurping the use of Active Scanners and by default, Gallente Logistics. By removing the scan range bonus, you reduce the maximum range by 25% and force them to focus more on their precision abilities while not extremely limiting their range capabilities. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1401	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:46:00 - [56] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: Reduce the dampening bonus on cloaks and make them progress with tier. Something like 10% for standard, 15% for advanced and 20% for proto. This seems like a reasonable suggestion, but maybe still sticking with 0%, 5%, 10% with a zero baseline. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2855	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:49:00 - [57] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Too many people to respond to. Anyway, as in my edit I re-evaluated some of my perspectives and while I still think that Active Scanners should focus on Range and Caldari Scouts should focus on precision, there have been some interesting suggestions. I don't think it's necessary to remove shared passive scan, but I do think that the Caldari Scout does have too much range for it's precision. It's a mobile radar that never goes away, which is a problem. A problem that could be easily tweaked by removing the range bonus on the Caldari Scout, but if you're going to do that you might as well remove it from the Gallente Scout because it contributes nothing to it's specialization of dipping under TacNet. You could change the base range, but then you'd be singling the Caldari Scout out and giving the Gallente Scout even more range than it does. So, there's that. EDIT: To elaborate more for CCP Rattati, I think the general concensus is that the Caldari Scout having the capabilities of such a low precision (as low as 15db) accompanied by a high range (50-75m) is completely usurping the use of Active Scanners and by default, Gallente Logistics. By removing the scan range bonus, you reduce the maximum range by 25% and force them to focus more on their precision abilities while not extremely limiting their range capabilities. Although, the gallente scouts are the range masters ;) 4 low slots you know. I ran 150m scan diameter when I still played the game: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/565/2658 This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5703	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:51:00 - [58] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Too many people to respond to. Anyway, as in my edit I re-evaluated some of my perspectives and while I still think that Active Scanners should focus on Range and Caldari Scouts should focus on precision, there have been some interesting suggestions. I don't think it's necessary to remove shared passive scan, but I do think that the Caldari Scout does have too much range for it's precision. It's a mobile radar that never goes away, which is a problem. A problem that could be easily tweaked by removing the range bonus on the Caldari Scout, but if you're going to do that you might as well remove it from the Gallente Scout because it contributes nothing to it's specialization of dipping under TacNet. You could change the base range, but then you'd be singling the Caldari Scout out and giving the Gallente Scout even more range than it does. So, there's that. EDIT: To elaborate more for CCP Rattati, I think the general concensus is that the Caldari Scout having the capabilities of such a low precision (as low as 15db) accompanied by a high range (50-75m) is completely usurping the use of Active Scanners and by default, Gallente Logistics. By removing the scan range bonus, you reduce the maximum range by 25% and force them to focus more on their precision abilities while not extremely limiting their range capabilities. Although, the gallente scouts are the range masters ;) 4 low slots you know. Im running 150m scan diameter: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/565/2658 Part of the problem >_>; Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Kosakai Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 63	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:52:00 - [59] - Quote what about armore plate negative dampening? this eliminate bricked scouts.... somethink like 0% 5% 10% ? this can be specific only for scouts and this fix problem with invisible scouts... they are invisible can spot you but hard to kill you if they cant wear plates.... PROUD MINMATAR <3 -- IN RUST IS TRUST FORGE GUN LOVER -- TANK HUNTER SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED .......
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2855	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:52:00 - [60] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Too many people to respond to. Anyway, as in my edit I re-evaluated some of my perspectives and while I still think that Active Scanners should focus on Range and Caldari Scouts should focus on precision, there have been some interesting suggestions. I don't think it's necessary to remove shared passive scan, but I do think that the Caldari Scout does have too much range for it's precision. It's a mobile radar that never goes away, which is a problem. A problem that could be easily tweaked by removing the range bonus on the Caldari Scout, but if you're going to do that you might as well remove it from the Gallente Scout because it contributes nothing to it's specialization of dipping under TacNet. You could change the base range, but then you'd be singling the Caldari Scout out and giving the Gallente Scout even more range than it does. So, there's that. EDIT: To elaborate more for CCP Rattati, I think the general concensus is that the Caldari Scout having the capabilities of such a low precision (as low as 15db) accompanied by a high range (50-75m) is completely usurping the use of Active Scanners and by default, Gallente Logistics. By removing the scan range bonus, you reduce the maximum range by 25% and force them to focus more on their precision abilities while not extremely limiting their range capabilities. Although, the gallente scouts are the range masters ;) 4 low slots you know. Im running 150m scan diameter: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/565/2658 Part of the problem >_>; No, its a scouting role that spots enemies, but dont kill as effectively as a slayer scout. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.

Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5704	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:54:00 - [61] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Too many people to respond to. Anyway, as in my edit I re-evaluated some of my perspectives and while I still think that Active Scanners should focus on Range and Caldari Scouts should focus on precision, there have been some interesting suggestions. I don't think it's necessary to remove shared passive scan, but I do think that the Caldari Scout does have too much range for it's precision. It's a mobile radar that never goes away, which is a problem. A problem that could be easily tweaked by removing the range bonus on the Caldari Scout, but if you're going to do that you might as well remove it from the Gallente Scout because it contributes nothing to it's specialization of dipping under TacNet. You could change the base range, but then you'd be singling the Caldari Scout out and giving the Gallente Scout even more range than it does. So, there's that. EDIT: To elaborate more for CCP Rattati, I think the general concensus is that the Caldari Scout having the capabilities of such a low precision (as low as 15db) accompanied by a high range (50-75m) is completely usurping the use of Active Scanners and by default, Gallente Logistics. By removing the scan range bonus, you reduce the maximum range by 25% and force them to focus more on their precision abilities while not extremely limiting their range capabilities. Although, the gallente scouts are the range masters ;) 4 low slots you know. Im running 150m scan diameter: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/565/2658 Part of the problem >_>; No, its a scouting role that spots enemies, but dont kill as effectively as a slayer scout. I suppose but it being entirely passive at that range is why we're so pissed off at the Caldari Scout stepping on the toes of the Gallente Logistics O.o; Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2166	Posted - 2014.05.22 10:12:00 - [62] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: shaman oga wrote: Eliminate caldari and gallente scan range bonus. This would alleviate the problem a fair bit. Please elaborate Basically, if you can always see where the enemy is looking, you can avoid is line of sight, you enemy will not be able to see you, scan you, because you are out his field of view / cone of scan. That is what it makes cal and gal scout so powerful, they always know where you are, inside their 40 meters. Dampening is not the real problem, in my opinion, the war is only between cal and gal scout, none of the other suits can scan like them or be invisible like them. So, nerf one of them will only make players shift from one to another (if they can see me now, i want to see them too). The only way to nerf them is to decrease their passive scan range. It's the same problem of scanners before 1.8, cal and gal scouts can permascan, but it's even worse, because you don't know if you are scanned or not. PSN: ogamega I'm here to bla bla bla...
Oswald Rehnquist 1395	Posted - 2014.05.22 10:23:00 - [63] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I suppose but it being entirely passive at that range is why we're so pissed off at the Caldari Scout stepping on the toes of the Gallente Logistics O.o; I don't think everyone is pissed off at cal scouts stepping on a toes of a class that disappeared once scanning required some skill due to a function that quite a few don't know about. Your arguing a precision v precision meta, but the recent changes have zero to do with that. I think your more shocked with your revelation more so than what is being balanced here. What is changing is the the precision vs dampening meta, which has the potential to throw one of two scouts as thy scout and nullifying the other 3 suits. Going with a high precision and low range for the caldari scout, has us treading into extremely unfamiliar territory in regards to balance as we now open an entirely new front where the drop in range may not justify the amount of precision or where the amount of precision is too higher to be functional for the other scouts to function against. Or is you are just talking about just a flat removal of of that bonus and nothing else, given the present data and the changes, suggesting an effective removal of a ghost slot from the caldari scout will somehow balance scouts is a little hard to comprehend considering that the current changes still favor the gal scout even without the scanning range. Below 28 dB
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1160	Posted - 2014.05.22 10:25:00 - [64] - Quote I haven't done the maths, so just throwing it out there. How about reducing the Gal dampening bonus and Cal precision bonus to 2% a level, from 5%? Would reduce the overall gap between the GAL/CAL and MIN/AMARR when it comes to passive vision, and somewhat reduce the effect the removal of the cloak bonus has on the MIN/AMARR. If the scaled dampening bonus as mentioned is included (0% at standard, 10% at advanced, 15% at proto), then it might work out. I know this doesn't account for active scanners and Gal logi, but with the changes made to the active scanner in 1.8, I'm reasonably happy with a balance where the Gal logi is reasonably able to scan 90% of scouts for limited periods. Just so long as the 10% isn't only made up of Gal scouts... Knowledge is power
BL4CKST4R WarRavens Final Resolution. 2701	Posted - 2014.05.22 10:33:00 - [65] - Quote The Gallente scout changes should honestly be held off until after hotfix alpha drops, the benefit of a Gallente scout is stealth but that really is its only benefit. Reducing it's ability to stealth opens up the doors for the meta to shift from the Gallente to the Caldari. If the Gallente cannot passively hide from an equally stacked Caldari scout then the Gallente has now become obsolete. At the same time a Gallente scout shouldnt be able to pick up a Caldari scout with equal dampeners than he has precision enhancers. It should work out as in a situation were a Caldari scout has 3 precision enhancers and 2 damps a Gallente has 3 profile dampener and 2 enhancers, none will be able to passively scan each other. Leaving just the two to go unaware of each others presence or let their eyeballs do some work. As for the Minmatar and Amarr scout the issue is that they cannot hide very well either, I think a good change for them could be removing one of their bonuses and swapping it with either a profile dampening bonus and a scanning bonus. Markdown:
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 26	Posted - 2014.05.22 10:54:00 - [66] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: The Gallente scout changes should honestly be held off until after hotfix alpha drops, the benefit of a Gallente scout is stealth but that really is its only benefit. Reducing it's ability to stealth opens up the doors for the meta to shift from the Gallente to the Caldari. If the Gallente cannot passively hide from an equally stacked Caldari scout then the Gallente has now become obsolete. At the same time a Gallente scout shouldnt be able to pick up a Caldari scout with equal dampeners than he has precision enhancers. It should work out as in a situation were a Caldari scout has 3 precision enhancers and 2 damps a Gallente has 3 profile dampener and 2 enhancers, none will be able to passively scan each other. Leaving just the two to go unaware of each others presence or let their eyeballs do some work. As for the Minmatar and Amarr scout the issue is that they cannot hide very well either, I think a good change for them could be removing one of their bonuses and swapping it with either a profile dampening bonus and a scanning bonus. So your fix to Minmatar and Amarr is making them gal and cal scouts, lol
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 361	Posted - 2014.05.22 11:06:00 - [67] - Quote 1 change only? I would boost the proto dampening up another 15% (5% per tier) Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect 1240	Posted - 2014.05.22 11:11:00 - [68] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the only viable (PC) meta? Go! You are also nerfing armour plates. Combine the two and you've got a pretty big Gallente scout nerf on your hands.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 361	Posted - 2014.05.22 11:11:00 - [69] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: They should remove the squad sharing passive scans (as was the idea in the first place) I need to follow up on this internally Negative. Scouts are made for recon. This should stay as is, if not advance to team share instead of just squad share. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 27	Posted - 2014.05.22 11:12:00 - [70] - Quote I like how this has become all about cal vs gal scout who cares what removing the dampening to cloak does to minmatar and amarr. the 2 that has no scan, range, or dampening bonus. the 2 that relied the most on the dampening of the cloak so they could equip mods to enhance there bonuses (kincats/hacking minmatar) amarr well they need all the slots they can to compensate for lack of bonuses. with the change they will be even more limited because they will need to use another slot for dampener.

Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13612	Posted - 2014.05.22 11:43:00 - [71] - Quote Please don't replace the dampening bonus with something like a cloak duration bonus. The cloaks have such a long duration that such a bonus would be useless. With a proto cloak I have yet to encounter the situation in which I need more cloak time, even when I'm sitting cloaked for hugely extended periods of time. I don't see the dampening bonus as being the problem so much as I see the absolute EWAR system. If you're damped enough to evade something, you evade it completely. If not, regardless of whether the precision is vastly better than your profile or -just over- you're lit up perfectly. Also, squad vision. Squad scan vision is what makes dampening so crucial - if a Calscout stacks precision enhancers and picks you up their entire squad can see you. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
Jebus McKing Legio DXIV 475	Posted - 2014.05.22 11:44:00 - [72] - Quote If you absolutely want to go with removing the dampening effect of the cloak and only change one more thing to balance things out then do the following: Remove the damn chevrons over peoples heads when you passively scanned them. This way cloaked scouts would still be hard to spot even when scanned. Also, remove the arrow on the red dots on the mini map, so it is more challenging for scouts to shoot people in the back. Anything else would need a rework of all scout suits, which has to be done additionally IMHO. Cal scout: short range precision scout hunter 25% precision 25% Max stamina Gal scout: ghost 25% dampening 25% cloak regen Min scout: hack and run 35% hacking speed 25% shield regen delay Ama scout: squad scan support, scans most suits except scouts 25% bonus to movement penalty of armour plates 35% scan range - 25-50% reduction to cloak time to make camping cloaked less effective @JebusMcKing
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 247	Posted - 2014.05.22 11:56:00 - [73] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: They should remove the squad sharing passive scans (as was the idea in the first place) I need to follow up on this internally Negative. Scouts are made for recon. This should stay as is, if not advance to team share instead of just squad share. But scouts are made for recon, they should just not rely on the TacNet to do the job for them. As stated before, the position and direction of a scanned player is visible on the TacNet, which gives a very low probability of survival if an entire squad (or worse: team) shares this information. With the removal of this function, it boils down to three options: - The scout deals with the target himself, risking his own life but obtaining the element of surprise. - The scout verbally tells his squad about the position (to keep the element of surprise), but the squad will not have detailed info of the exact whereabouts and direction of the target. - The scout "paints" the target with his active scanner, but in doing so alerts the target that he is targeted for execution, which gives him a chance to defend himself. I think the above scenarios are fair, but it is just my 2 ISK
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5704	Posted - 2014.05.22 12:06:00 - [74] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I suppose but it being entirely passive at that range is why we're so pissed off at the Caldari Scout stepping on the toes of the Gallente Logistics O.o; I don't think everyone is pissed off at cal scouts stepping on a toes of a class that disappeared once scanning required some skill due to a function that quite a few don't know about. Your arguing a precision v precision meta, but the recent changes have zero to do with that. I think your more shocked with your revelation more so than what is being balanced here. What is changing is the the precision vs dampening meta, which has the potential to throw one of two scouts as thy scout and nullifying the other 3 suits. Going with a high precision and low range for the caldari scout, has us treading into extremely unfamiliar territory in regards to balance as we now open an entirely new front where the drop in range may not justify the amount of precision or where the amount of precision is too higher to be functional for the other scouts to function against. Or is you are just talking about just a flat removal of of that bonus and nothing else, given the present data and the changes, suggesting an effective removal of a ghost slot from the caldari scout will somehow balance scouts is a little hard to comprehend considering that the current changes still favor the gal scout even without the scanning range. Sure, it might be from the revelation - I won't lie. Although, when you're talking balance, it's a lot easier to balance something when it's role isn't contending with another role. The proposal was off-topic and wasn't meant to balance scouts, it was meant to give some separation between the capabilities of the Caldari Scout and the Gallente Logi. It was an extension of my previous comment in which I agreed with some of the other posters that you can't just change one stat and somehow achieve balance, it needs a more in-depth look. Right now, the roles bleed into one another too much. You have Logis which are meant to support, with the Gallente Logi specializing in finding stuff using the Active Scanner. Then you have Scouts which are meant to not be found, with the Caldari Scout... specializing in finding stuff using it's passive scanning. To a lesser extent the Gallente Scout performs the same specialization by having a range bonus and more low slots to effectively turn it into a giant mobile radar on-top of being viable in it's own right by having the Scout's role bonus of cloaks -and- an inherent profile reduction. And this isn't even covering the aspects of the other two scouts which fall short because they don't have such tactical viability in teamplay environments. Hacking is great and all but when you compare it to TacNet, it falls short. If they want the other scouts to be viable, they're going to have re-evaluate what their specialization is within the role. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 812	Posted - 2014.05.22 12:12:00 - [75] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: shaman oga wrote: Eliminate caldari and gallente scan range bonus. This would alleviate the problem a fair bit. Please elaborate Others have made the point better than me, but a large part of the precision-vs-damps problem is spillover onto AK and MK due to ultra damped gal scouts vs ultra-scan cal scouts, leaving them as second-class citizens. Eliminating the range bonus on gal/cal scouts reduces the range at which the other two scouts get caught in the crossfire, or at the least forcing them to devote yet more slots to get the current functionality. Dust/Eve transfers
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 630	Posted - 2014.05.22 12:18:00 - [76] - Quote Haerr wrote: Anyone of these (alone without any other modifications) is a horrible idea which puts us right back into 1.7 where scouts were being perma scanned (bar a gal scout with 4 dampeners).] You WHAT!!!??? In 1.7 you could run a medium suit with 2 complex damps and avoid proto scanners - If a scout was perma-scanned in 1.7 it had 0 complex damps on the suit.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2857	Posted - 2014.05.22 12:18:00 - [77] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: They should remove the squad sharing passive scans (as was the idea in the first place) Scouts do recon. Its their job to scan for the squad, just like logis ress/resupply/revive/occasionaly scan. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 362	Posted - 2014.05.22 12:36:00 - [78] - Quote we still need more feedback, if they pick any of the options listed other than COMPLETELY REDOING all of the scout suits, we're boned for another 2 months. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Haerr Legio DXIV 658	Posted - 2014.05.22 12:40:00 - [79] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: Haerr wrote: Anyone of these (alone without any other modifications) is a horrible idea which puts us right back into 1.7 where scouts were being perma scanned (bar a gal scout with 4 dampeners).] You WHAT!!!??? In 1.7 you could run a medium suit with 2 complex damps and avoid proto scanners - If a scout was perma-scanned in 1.7 it had 0 damps on the suit. I'm guessing you never played against Nyain San (or others... I was running a GalLogi with Focused Scanners when we were up against a lot of Scouts) Besides I remember Appia sharing a GalLogi fit with 3 enhancers that could pick up those silly 2x dampened medium suits. Funny how the GalLogi of old was a better scout than scouts was. Scanning table for 1.7: LINK I have Plasma Cannon Proficiency V, no jk.
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 102	Posted - 2014.05.22 12:47:00 - [80] - Quote I was always against removing the cloak dampening as I always knew it would mess up the meta, particularly for the already underused min and Am scouts, I was also quite vocal about it. If it has to be done I suggest this: Significantly increase the effect of profile dampeners. Make complex a 50% reduction or similar. I know sombody else suggested this. I also support changing the Gal and Cal bonuses to module bonuses.

Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 363	Posted - 2014.05.22 12:51:00 - [81] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I was always against removing the cloak dampening as I always knew it would mess up the meta, particularly for the already underused min and Am scouts, I was also quite vocal about it. If it has to be done I suggest this: Significantly increase the effect of profile dampeners. Make complex a 50% reduction or similar. I know sombody else suggested this. I also support changing the Gal and Cal bonuses to module bonuses. I 2nd this. Just remember tho, if it becomes a module bonus, the more modules they stack the better % overall. It could even rival/beat the current base bonus. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2369	Posted - 2014.05.22 12:53:00 - [82] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: They should remove the squad sharing passive scans (as was the idea in the first place) I need to follow up on this internally We aren't talking about completely taking off passive scans, right? That is a huge part of the scout role, and an incentive to NOT fit tank mods in the lows. I would agree that the range bonus for gal-scouts just seems like even MORE of a bonus to their role as a shotty scout, but really giving them basically a dual PRO module bonus to a suit that gets 4 lowslots at PRO level is like having 6 lowslots. I would agree that taking out the range bonus on them, but not taking away the passive scan sharing on all scouts, would help to balance them. Scouts (and everyone) needs passive sharing to make the scout role viable. I think the role spectrum that a gal scout should have to chose between would be a solo shotty with a limited enough detection range that lets them sneak around with a shotgun, or a highly stealthy scanner avoiding most dangers just through manauevering.
Starfire Revo Inner.Hell 268	Posted - 2014.05.22 12:54:00 - [83] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Please elaborate The ability for scouts to passively scan wide areas for their squad means that they're essentially a walking, permanent wall hack for 5 other people. After the cloak change, the Gal scout will be able to see everything above 23.79db within 75m while being undetected himself (if he builds for it). The Cal scout will see everything above 14.91 for the same radius, which creates a barrier that most scouts can't enter unless they get torn to shreds by the 5 other people. If you want Cal scouts to remain as the hunters of other scouts, then they should have to hunt down enemies themselves. So aside from removing the shared passive vision, I'd suggest the following changes (based loosely on Jebus' suggestions). Cal scout: short range precision scout hunter 25% precision 25% reduction to nova knife charge time (nova knives are a cal weapon) Gal scout: ghost 25% dampening 25% cloak regen Min scout: hack and run 25% hacking speed (Min scouts get a higher base stat for this anyway, no need to buff it more) 25% bonus to biotics (with their high base melee damage and speed, this opens up a lot of options) Ama scout: squad scan support, scans most suits except scouts 25% bonus to ferroscale and reactive plates (I've heard changing movement penalties is hard to make work, so this makes more sense) 25% scan range (gives Amarr their own E-war role and makes sense considering their weapon choices hit out to similar ranges) Also, I'd like to note that while balancing around PC makes some sense considering it's the only full team vs full team mode right now, it has the issues of a limited map pool and limited playerbase. If they're serious about balance changes, I'd rather see full team FW enabled and have them take those figures into consideration too. FW is open to far more people and uses maps outside just the limited large socket selection. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Jadek Menaheim Ancient Textiles. 3072	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:07:00 - [84] - Quote I would support the plan put out by Revo and Jebus McKing. Gÿ+/ Join MySpaceTom's army /Gûî /\
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 363	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:15:00 - [85] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: I would support the plan put out by Revo and Jebus McKing. i like everything but the amar layout tbh. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
The-Errorist Sver true blood 705	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:16:00 - [86] - Quote With the proposed changes, here's what it would take to prevent being scanned by a someone with Gallente logi Lv5 using prototype scanners and what it would take for Cal scouts to scan at different dB. [Prototype active scanner]: 21 dB Amarr: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Caldari: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Gallente: 1 basic profile dampener Minmatar: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener [Lv5 Cal scout w/ 2 complex precision enhancers]: 17.85 dB Amarr: 2 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener Minmatar: 2 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener [Prototype focused active scanner] 15dB Amarr: 3 complex profile dampeners & 1 enhanced profile dampener Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 enhanced profile dampener Minmatar: Impossible [Lv5 Cal scout w/ 4 complex precision enhancers]: 14.91 dB Amarr: 4 complex profile dampeners Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 enhanced profile dampener Minmatar: Impossible Gal logis and Cal scouts specialize in scanning and low precision which counters dampening Gal scouts specialize in low profiles which counters precision I think is fine; if other scouts that don't get a bonus to dampening were able to hide from those with a role bonus to precision, by only using one low slot dampening module, it would make those with precision bonuses not that competitive. Also the other scouts have other roles too (except for Amarr). MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
Al the destroyer NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 137	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:26:00 - [87] - Quote Starfire Revo wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Please elaborate The ability for scouts to passively scan wide areas for their squad means that they're essentially a walking, permanent wall hack for 5 other people. After the cloak change, the Gal scout will be able to see everything above 23.79db within 75m while being undetected himself (if he builds for it). The Cal scout will see everything above 14.91 for the same radius, which creates a barrier that most scouts can't enter unless they get torn to shreds by the 5 other people. If you want Cal scouts to remain as the hunters of other scouts, then they should have to hunt down enemies themselves. So aside from removing the shared passive vision, I'd suggest the following changes (based loosely on Jebus' suggestions). Cal scout: short range precision scout hunter 25% precision 25% reduction to nova knife charge time (nova knives are a cal weapon) Gal scout: ghost 25% dampening 25% cloak regen Min scout: hack and run 25% hacking speed (Min scouts get a higher base stat for this anyway, no need to buff it more) 10% bonus to biotics (with their high base melee damage and speed, this opens up a lot of options) edit: Someone pointed out the numbers on +25% on biotics, so changed it to +10% Ama scout: squad scan support, scans most suits except scouts 25% bonus to ferroscale and reactive plates (I've heard changing movement penalties is hard to make work, so this makes more sense) 25% scan range (gives Amarr their own E-war role and makes sense considering their weapon choices hit out to similar ranges) Also, I'd like to note that while balancing around PC makes some sense considering it's the only full team vs full team mode right now, it has the issues of a limited map pool and limited playerbase. If they're serious about balance changes, I'd rather see full team FW enabled and have them take those figures into consideration too. FW is open to far more people and uses maps outside just the limited large socket selection. This seems very sensible to me +1 Still playing having more fun than ever cuz IDGAF.
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 630	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:26:00 - [88] - Quote Haerr wrote: Happy Violentime wrote: Haerr wrote: Anyone of these (alone without any other modifications) is a horrible idea which puts us right back into 1.7 where scouts were being perma scanned (bar a gal scout with 4 dampeners).] You WHAT!!!??? In 1.7 you could run a medium suit with 2 complex damps and avoid proto scanners - If a scout was perma-scanned in 1.7 it had 0 damps on the suit. I'm guessing you never played against Nyain San (or others... I was running a GalLogi with Focused Scanners when we were up against a lot of Scouts) Besides I remember Appia sharing a GalLogi fit with 3 enhancers that could pick up those silly 2x dampened medium suits. Funny how the GalLogi of old was a better scout than scouts was. Scanning table for 1.7: LINK Sigh I'm guessing you don't like being told you are wrong? Well..... you're wrong. That table is trash, in reality 2 complex damps + the passive dampening skill brought a medium suit under 15db - I'd actually suggest that CCP math was way out and that 2 complex damps + the passive from the skill gave you a 75% reduction to profile - giving a medium suit with 2 complex damps a 12.5DB profile. But what the ** do I know? I only ran a Medium suit with 2 complex damps for all of 1.7 and never got scanned, ever. So obviously I'm talking . So off you *** ******.
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 402	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:47:00 - [89] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: Haerr wrote: Happy Violentime wrote: Haerr wrote: Anyone of these (alone without any other modifications) is a horrible idea which puts us right back into 1.7 where scouts were being perma scanned (bar a gal scout with 4 dampeners).] You WHAT!!!??? In 1.7 you could run a medium suit with 2 complex damps and avoid proto scanners - If a scout was perma-scanned in 1.7 it had 0 damps on the suit. I'm guessing you never played against Nyain San (or others... I was running a GalLogi with Focused Scanners when we were up against a lot of Scouts) Besides I remember Appia sharing a GalLogi fit with 3 enhancers that could pick up those silly 2x dampened medium suits. Funny how the GalLogi of old was a better scout than scouts was. Scanning table for 1.7: LINK Sigh I'm guessing you don't like being told you are wrong? Well..... you're wrong. That table is trash, in reality 2 complex damps + the passive dampening skill brought a medium suit under 15db - I'd actually suggest that CCP math was way out and that 2 complex damps + the passive from the skill gave you a 75% reduction to profile - giving a medium suit with 2 complex damps a 12.5DB profile. But what the ** do I know? I only ran a Medium suit with 2 complex damps for all of 1.7 and never got scanned, ever. So obviously I'm talking . So off you *** ******. A medium suit with 2 complex damps has just over 26dB scan profile, not the 12.5 you claim (-10% from skills and 2x-25% from damps does not even equal -60%, let alone -75% that you claim, its around -48% after you account for stacking penalties Congratulations on not being scanned in 1.7, you must have never played pubs or PC during that time Tech De Ra // Electronic Sports League Prime League champion Fanfest '14 All star champion
BL4CKST4R WarRavens Final Resolution. 2702	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:48:00 - [90] - Quote Xx-VxF-xX wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: The Gallente scout changes should honestly be held off until after hotfix alpha drops, the benefit of a Gallente scout is stealth but that really is its only benefit. Reducing it's ability to stealth opens up the doors for the meta to shift from the Gallente to the Caldari. If the Gallente cannot passively hide from an equally stacked Caldari scout then the Gallente has now become obsolete. At the same time a Gallente scout shouldnt be able to pick up a Caldari scout with equal dampeners than he has precision enhancers. It should work out as in a situation were a Caldari scout has 3 precision enhancers and 2 damps a Gallente has 3 profile dampener and 2 enhancers, none will be able to passively scan each other. Leaving just the two to go unaware of each others presence or let their eyeballs do some work. As for the Minmatar and Amarr scout the issue is that they cannot hide very well either, I think a good change for them could be removing one of their bonuses and swapping it with either a profile dampening bonus and a scanning bonus. So your fix to Minmatar and Amarr is making them gal and cal scouts, lol Not necessarily but they way things are a minatar, or an amsrr, cannot scan or stealth as good as their gal or cal so in the scout war they re sitting ducks. Markdown:

RedPencil DUST University Ivy League 0	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:50:00 - [91] - Quote CCP Rattati announce to remove the dampening effect of the cloak the Hotfix Alpha. I think that make Min scout with lower tier have no ground to stand. It will force Min scout to fit 2 damp at least to stay compete with other, and the low tier has only 2 slots. So we have to drop code breaker. I think this nerf will drive people to select gal scout even more to bypass that.
The-Errorist Sver true blood 706	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:52:00 - [92] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: Haerr wrote: Happy Violentime wrote: Haerr wrote: Anyone of these (alone without any other modifications) is a horrible idea which puts us right back into 1.7 where scouts were being perma scanned (bar a gal scout with 4 dampeners).] You WHAT!!!??? In 1.7 you could run a medium suit with 2 complex damps and avoid proto scanners - If a scout was perma-scanned in 1.7 it had 0 damps on the suit. I'm guessing you never played against Nyain San (or others... I was running a GalLogi with Focused Scanners when we were up against a lot of Scouts) Besides I remember Appia sharing a GalLogi fit with 3 enhancers that could pick up those silly 2x dampened medium suits. Funny how the GalLogi of old was a better scout than scouts was. Scanning table for 1.7: LINK Sigh I'm guessing you don't like being told you are wrong? Well..... you're wrong. That table is trash, in reality 2 complex damps + the passive dampening skill brought a medium suit under 15db - I'd actually suggest that CCP math was way out and that 2 complex damps + the passive from the skill gave you a 75% reduction to profile - giving a medium suit with 2 complex damps a 12.5DB profile. But what the ** do I know? I only ran a Medium suit with 2 complex damps for all of 1.7 and never got scanned, ever. So obviously I'm talking . So off you *** ****. Sure, before 1.8 you could get by with just 2 complex dampeners in PC on a medium frame and only be scanned by the focused variant, but that time has passed. It is not possible to hide from a prototype active scanner with just a medium frame against a Lv5 Gal logi with that same fit; It takes 4 complex dampeners and 1 basic dampener to hide from a Gal logi with a proto scanner and it is impossible to hide from a Gal logi using a focused scan with only a medium frame**. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
Haerr Legio DXIV 661	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:01:00 - [93] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: Haerr wrote: Happy Violentime wrote: Haerr wrote: Anyone of these (alone without any other modifications) is a horrible idea which puts us right back into 1.7 where scouts were being perma scanned (bar a gal scout with 4 dampeners).] You WHAT!!!??? In 1.7 you could run a medium suit with 2 complex damps and avoid proto scanners - If a scout was perma-scanned in 1.7 it had 0 damps on the suit. I'm guessing you never played against Nyain San (or others... I was running a GalLogi with Focused Scanners when we were up against a lot of Scouts) Besides I remember Appia sharing a GalLogi fit with 3 enhancers that could pick up those silly 2x dampened medium suits. Funny how the GalLogi of old was a better scout than scouts was. Scanning table for 1.7: LINK Sigh I'm guessing you don't like being told you are wrong? Well..... you're wrong. That table is trash, in reality 2 complex damps + the passive dampening skill brought a medium suit under 15db - I'd actually suggest that CCP math was way out and that 2 complex damps + the passive from the skill gave you a 75% reduction to profile - giving a medium suit with 2 complex damps a 12.5DB profile. But what the ** do I know? I only ran a Medium suit with 2 complex damps for all of 1.7 and never got scanned, ever. So obviously I'm talking . So off you *** ****. I don't particularly like to be told that I am wrong but it seems that you like it even less than I do. btw I won't off and I've got not idea of whether or not I am a *** **** since it got filtered, if you wouldn't mind posting it in a way that I can read it I could get back to you on that one. I have Plasma Cannon Proficiency V**, no jk.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2858	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:04:00 - [94] - Quote To all these stupid people trying to reduce the scan range of scouts - go DIAF. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
RedPencil DUST University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:06:00 - [95] - Quote Here is a scan for 1.8
The-Errorist Sver true blood 708	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:13:00 - [96] - Quote RedPencil wrote: CCP Rattati announce to remove the dampening effect of the cloak the Hotfix Alpha. I think that make Min scout with lower tier have no ground to stand. It will force Min scout to fit 2 damp at least to stay compete with other, and the low tier has only 2 slots. So we have to drop code breaker. I think this nerf will drive people to select gal scout even more to bypass that. So you want to be able to hide from a prototype active scanner in the hands of a suit with a role bonus towards precision, by only using 1 module? MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 364	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:15:00 - [97] - Quote I remember back in the day we talked about giving the ability hack enemy equipment, maybe toss that in to the amar :p Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Ghost Kaisar The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 4833	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:15:00 - [98] - Quote Starfire Revo wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Please elaborate The ability for scouts to passively scan wide areas for their squad means that they're essentially a walking, permanent wall hack for 5 other people. After the cloak change, the Gal scout will be able to see everything above 23.79db within 75m while being undetected himself (if he builds for it). The Cal scout will see everything above 14.91 for the same radius, which creates a barrier that most scouts can't enter unless they get torn to shreds by the 5 other people. If you want Cal scouts to remain as the hunters of other scouts, then they should have to hunt down enemies themselves. So aside from removing the shared passive vision, I'd suggest the following changes (based loosely on Jebus' suggestions). Cal scout: short range precision scout hunter 25% precision 25% reduction to nova knife charge time (nova knives are a cal weapon) Gal scout: ghost 25% dampening 25% cloak regen Min scout: hack and run 25% hacking speed (Min scouts get a higher base stat for this anyway, no need to buff it more) 10% bonus to biotics (with their high base melee damage and speed, this opens up a lot of options) edit: Someone pointed out the numbers on +25% on biotics, so changed it to +10% Ama scout: squad scan support, scans most suits except scouts 25% bonus to ferroscale and reactive plates (I've heard changing movement penalties is hard to make work, so this makes more sense) 25% scan range (gives Amarr their own E-war role and makes sense considering their weapon choices hit out to similar ranges) Also, I'd like to note that while balancing around PC makes some sense considering it's the only full team vs full team mode right now, it has the issues of a limited map pool and limited playerbase. If they're serious about balance changes, I'd rather see full team FW enabled and have them take those figures into consideration too. FW is open to far more people and uses maps outside just the limited large socket selection. I like this as well. Mainly the Min, Gal, and Cal. Cal suits SHOULD get the bonus to their knives. It only makes sense. The Min scout is FANTASTIC with melee. Seriously. The speed bonus and melee makes them INSANE in CQC. I ran an empty PC with a friend (Was a no show), and he wanted to see what 11.11m/s was like. I ran circles around him, and punched with my 120 melee. His reaction? "Dude, I can barely track you at this speed." If you can get the min Scout to hit 500 melee and 10.38 m/s or greater with 2x Melee and 2x Speed, you can make the Min Scout an amazing CQC fighter. This also meshes well with their hack bonus. Since they are on the front lines more, they have more chances to help cap objectives. Makes them ideal to help a squad push a letter. Gal Scouts can definitely use this bonus. They lose their range, but they can get it back with modules if they want. It also gives the Amarr a role that they desperately need. Amarr have a role! They will be the extra support for assault squads. With enough HP to survive, and decent scanning ranges, they can pick up other med frames while avoiding their scans. They will be easy targets for scouts if they don't damp though. In Short, I like these changes if they go hand in hand with scan changes. Scanners are made to scan Medframes Gal Scanners are made to scan scouts. Cal Scouts are counter-scouts. Gal avoid Scans of all kinds. Min and Amarr are kind of a middle ground. They can avoid Med scans easily and non-cal scans, but they use slots to do so. Cal scout is the bane of their existence, and must be avoided or eliminated. Headed to Destiny, to Hell with CCP PSN: EVL_Elgost105 RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 364	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:17:00 - [99] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: To all these stupid people trying to reduce the scan range of scouts - go DIAF. agreed Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 364	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:21:00 - [100] - Quote another option is to make the base gallante suit a bit slower than the others, so they have to put a speed mod in a slot to compensate. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.

Master Smurf Nos Nothi 464	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:25:00 - [101] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: They should remove the squad sharing passive scans (as was the idea in the first place) Scouts do recon. Its their job to scan for the squad, just like logis ress/resupply/revive/occasionaly scan. While true it would be much better if just LoS targets show on squads tacnet than anything a Cal Scout is passively picking up. "Shine bright like a diamond"
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 364	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:27:00 - [102] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: They should remove the squad sharing passive scans (as was the idea in the first place) Scouts do recon. Its their job to scan for the squad, just like logis ress/resupply/revive/occasionaly scan. While true it would be much better if just LoS targets show on squads tacnet than anything a Cal Scout is passively picking up. sounds better than removing it completely Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 464	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:29:00 - [103] - Quote Starfire Revo wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Please elaborate The ability for scouts to passively scan wide areas for their squad means that they're essentially a walking, permanent wall hack for 5 other people. After the cloak change, the Gal scout will be able to see everything above 23.79db within 75m while being undetected himself (if he builds for it). The Cal scout will see everything above 14.91 for the same radius, which creates a barrier that most scouts can't enter unless they get torn to shreds by the 5 other people. If you want Cal scouts to remain as the hunters of other scouts, then they should have to hunt down enemies themselves. So aside from removing the shared passive vision, I'd suggest the following changes (based loosely on Jebus' suggestions). Cal scout: short range precision scout hunter 25% precision 25% reduction to nova knife charge time (nova knives are a cal weapon) Gal scout: ghost 25% dampening 25% cloak regen Min scout: hack and run 25% hacking speed (Min scouts get a higher base stat for this anyway, no need to buff it more) 10% bonus to biotics (with their high base melee damage and speed, this opens up a lot of options) edit: Someone pointed out the numbers on +25% on biotics, so changed it to +10% Ama scout: squad scan support, scans most suits except scouts 25% bonus to ferroscale and reactive plates (I've heard changing movement penalties is hard to make work, so this makes more sense) 25% scan range (gives Amarr their own E-war role and makes sense considering their weapon choices hit out to similar ranges) Also, I'd like to note that while balancing around PC makes some sense considering it's the only full team vs full team mode right now, it has the issues of a limited map pool and limited playerbase. If they're serious about balance changes, I'd rather see full team FW enabled and have them take those figures into consideration too. FW is open to far more people and uses maps outside just the limited large socket selection. Loving all of this but Amarr has 4 lows so your range bonus would give them the same issue we want to eliminate - maybe make that a bonus to range extenders - my 2cents "Shine bright like a diamond"
RedPencil DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:31:00 - [104] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: RedPencil wrote: CCP Rattati announce to remove the dampening effect of the cloak the Hotfix Alpha. I think that make Min scout with lower tier have no ground to stand. It will force Min scout to fit 2 damp at least to stay compete with other, and the low tier has only 2 slots. So we have to drop code breaker. I think this nerf will drive people to select gal scout even more to bypass that. So you want to be able to hide from a prototype active scanner in the hands of a suit with a role bonus towards precision, by only using 1 module? non proto Min only have 2 low slot, and It already require 2 damp on to stay under prototype active. See this table What is the point of Min scout to have hacking bonus if we don't have slot to fit it? Don't force only one specific fit to Min.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 364	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:32:00 - [105] - Quote give amar or matari 5% reduction to pg cost of shield extenders Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 364	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:37:00 - [106] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Too many people to respond to. Anyway, as in my edit I re-evaluated some of my perspectives and while I still think that Active Scanners should focus on Range and Caldari Scouts should focus on precision, there have been some interesting suggestions. I don't think it's necessary to remove shared passive scan, but I do think that the Caldari Scout does have too much range for it's precision. It's a mobile radar that never goes away, which is a problem. A problem that could be easily tweaked by removing the range bonus on the Caldari Scout, but if you're going to do that you might as well remove it from the Gallente Scout because it contributes nothing to it's specialization of dipping under TacNet. You could change the base range, but then you'd be singling the Caldari Scout out and giving the Gallente Scout even more range than it does. So, there's that. EDIT: To elaborate more for CCP Rattati, I think the general concensus is that the Caldari Scout having the capabilities of such a low precision (as low as 15db) accompanied by a high range (50-75m) is completely usurping the use of Active Scanners and by default, Gallente Logistics. By removing the scan range bonus, you reduce the maximum range by 25% and force them to focus more on their precision abilities while not extremely limiting their range capabilities. Although, the gallente scouts are the range masters ;) 4 low slots you know. Im running 150m scan diameter: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/565/2658 Part of the problem >_>; No, its a scouting role that spots enemies, but dont kill as effectively as a slayer scout. yea, i'm just spamming, but him using all those range amps is the opposite of the brick tank problem. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 364	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:38:00 - [107] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Too many people to respond to. Anyway, as in my edit I re-evaluated some of my perspectives and while I still think that Active Scanners should focus on Range and Caldari Scouts should focus on precision, there have been some interesting suggestions. I don't think it's necessary to remove shared passive scan, but I do think that the Caldari Scout does have too much range for it's precision. It's a mobile radar that never goes away, which is a problem. A problem that could be easily tweaked by removing the range bonus on the Caldari Scout, but if you're going to do that you might as well remove it from the Gallente Scout because it contributes nothing to it's specialization of dipping under TacNet. You could change the base range, but then you'd be singling the Caldari Scout out and giving the Gallente Scout even more range than it does. So, there's that. EDIT: To elaborate more for CCP Rattati, I think the general concensus is that the Caldari Scout having the capabilities of such a low precision (as low as 15db) accompanied by a high range (50-75m) is completely usurping the use of Active Scanners and by default, Gallente Logistics. By removing the scan range bonus, you reduce the maximum range by 25% and force them to focus more on their precision abilities while not extremely limiting their range capabilities. Although, the gallente scouts are the range masters ;) 4 low slots you know. Im running 150m scan diameter: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/565/2658 Part of the problem >_>; No, its a scouting role that spots enemies, but dont kill as effectively as a slayer scout. yea, i'm just spamming, but him using all those range amps is the opposite of the brick tank problem. ewar ftw Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Kratek Heshan United Colonial Empire Army Freek Alliance 47	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:38:00 - [108] - Quote the gallente scouts will be more annoying they already got 600 to 700 armor now this come on!!!
Ghost Kaisar The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 4837	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:38:00 - [109] - Quote Starfire Revo wrote: Min scout: hack and run 25% hacking speed (Min scouts get a higher base stat for this anyway, no need to buff it more) 10% bonus to biotics (with their high base melee damage and speed, this opens up a lot of options) edit: Someone pointed out the numbers on +25% on biotics, so changed it to +10% The Min scout is FANTASTIC with melee. Seriously. The speed bonus and melee makes them INSANE in CQC. I ran an empty PC with a friend (Was a no show), and he wanted to see what 11.11m/s was like. I ran circles around him, and punched with my 120 melee. His reaction? "Dude, I can barely track you at this speed." If you can get the min Scout to hit 500 melee and 10.38 m/s or greater with 2x Melee and 2x Speed, you can make the Min Scout an amazing CQC fighter. This also meshes well with their hack bonus. Since they are on the front lines more, they have more chances to help cap objectives. Makes them ideal to help a squad push a letter. HOWEVER Can we change the biotic bonus a bit? Even with 10% increase, since the base for kincats is so low, you only increase sprint speed by 0.7 m/s with 2x Complex Speed. This is almost nothing. At 25%, you see this: 10.7 m/s after skills. This translates to a 0.32 m/s increase which is a 3% difference in speed. This means that you cover an additional 3m every 100m. It is also only 7% faster than a gal scout with 2x Speed. If you really want to buff the minmatars speed, change it's base sprint value. Change it's base sprint speed to 9m/s. With normal skills, this pushes 2x Speed to 11.12 m/s. A free kincat, as this is the speed value at 3x Speed. This makes the scout NOTICEABLY fast for using 2 of it's three slots. So, change base speed, leave out biotic bonus. Replace with Melee mod and stamina mod bonus. 2% per level. Headed to Destiny, to Hell with CCP PSN: EVL_Elgost105 RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 464	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:39:00 - [110] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: another option is to make the base gallante suit a bit slower than the others, so they have to put a speed mod in a slot to compensate. They really need some negative. All of their bonuses are critical to being a scout (which is good) but they all are low slot skills and the suit has 4 lows. "Shine bright like a diamond"

Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 364	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:54:00 - [111] - Quote raise their base precision so they only pick up commando's/heavies without putting precision enhancers :p Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Starfire Revo Inner.Hell 273	Posted - 2014.05.22 15:03:00 - [112] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Loving all of this but Amarr has 4 lows so your range bonus would give them the same issue we want to eliminate - maybe make that a bonus to range extenders - my 2cents They don't get a damp bonus and only have 2 high slots. If you take out passive squad vision, then you can't be undetectable with high hp and range. A scout suit with a long range is a powerful thing, but suits being powerful are fine so long as they're kept in check. Ghost Kaisar wrote: Can we change the biotic bonus a bit? 0.7m/s extra sprint speed is similar to what a third kin cat gives you, so it's close to having an extra module for free. Also with the Min scout's 130 base melee damage, it does 237->397->550 with +10% mods. Min scouts are crazy fast already, giving them even more speed for free seems like it could lead to balance issues. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 885	Posted - 2014.05.22 15:07:00 - [113] - Quote @ Scouts For now, the GalScout and CalScout will remain PC viable. Why aren't we discussing how to make the others PC viable? Why are we discussing additional nerfs? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 364	Posted - 2014.05.22 15:22:00 - [114] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Scouts Gal will remain PC viable, though they'll likely become less common. Cal will remain PC viable, due primarily to shared squad sight. Why aren't we discussing how to make the other Scouts PC viable? Why are we discussing additional nerfs? because that would be too hard for them. THey like to nerf **, then de-nerf it 4 months later. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.**
headbust Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 13	Posted - 2014.05.22 15:29:00 - [115] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: another option is to make the base gallante suit a bit slower than the others, so they have to put a speed mod in a slot to compensate. They really need some negative. All of their bonuses are critical to being a scout (which is good) but they all are low slot skills and the suit has 4 lows. the caldari goes to high modules and they have 4 highs but noone is complaining this whole nerf the gallente thing is stupid quit nerfing everything and buff the other scouts if they nerf gallente the mini and amar scouts are still going to complain their suits are still missing something and i agree they are their bonuses suck with the acception of the mini hacking speed if you were to give them a better bonus that actually helps a scout then there wouldn't be as much downing on the gal scout also the worst thing about the gal scout is the people that use them like an assault which is not the suits fault its the user im not sure how this could be fixed without buffing armor modules but that will hurt everyone in game not just the gal scout or you could make armor plates raise ur scan profile that would be the best way imo a scout = once you turn your back on me you'll never be able to look back
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 887	Posted - 2014.05.22 15:41:00 - [116] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: because that would be too hard for them. THey like to nerf ****, then de-nerf it 4 months later. 4 months? It was a nearly a year last time. How soon we forget. FoTM "slayers" prefer the GalScout today, but they will not tomorrow if required to Dampen. In other words, Rattati appears to have solved the brick-tanked Scout problem. Though in doing so, he has (1) tipped the eWar scale in favor of Caldari Scout and (2) further marginalized the Minmatar Scout. So, if I get only one change, I'd ask it to be: Let the Minmatar Scout keep the cloak's dampening bonus. Let him be the knife-wielding assassin in the shadows. And if by chance I were permitted a second change: Give the Amarr Scout a meaningful bonus. Something to set him apart from the others. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 365	Posted - 2014.05.22 15:52:00 - [117] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: because that would be too hard for them. THey like to nerf **, then de-nerf it 4 months later. 4 months? It was a nearly a year last time. How soon we forget. FoTM "slayers" prefer the GalScout today, but they will not tomorrow if required to Dampen. In other words, Rattati appears to have solved the brick-tanked Scout problem. Though in doing so, he has (1) tipped the eWar scale in favor of Caldari Scout and (2) further marginalized the Minmatar Scout. So, if I get only one change, I'd ask it to be: Let the Minmatar Scout keep the cloak's dampening bonus. Let him be the knife-wielding assassin in the shadows. And if by chance I were permitted a second change: Give the Amarr Scout a meaningful bonus. Something to set him apart from the others. alot of the slayers like the cal scout too, because of they buggy detection, fast main health rejuv, and good base passive scans/ not to mention the cbr does less dmg to them, and more to their counter-part. I die alot 1v1 vs a cal scout with a cbr, just because most of preliminary hits don't register, then the ones that do, are decreased by the shields resistance to the most op weapon. lol Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.**
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 31	Posted - 2014.05.22 15:57:00 - [118] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: because that would be too hard for them. THey like to nerf ****, then de-nerf it 4 months later. 4 months? It was a nearly a year last time. How soon we forget. FoTM "slayers" prefer the GalScout today, but they will not tomorrow if required to Dampen. In other words, Rattati appears to have solved the brick-tanked Scout problem. Though in doing so, he has (1) tipped the eWar scale in favor of Caldari Scout and (2) further marginalized the Minmatar Scout. So, if I get only one change, I'd ask it to be: Let the Minmatar Scout keep the cloak's dampening bonus. Let him be the knife-wielding assassin in the shadows. And if by chance I were permitted a second change: Give the Amarr Scout a meaningful bonus. Something to set him apart from the others. Could solve the brink tank gallente by changing the racial dampening bonus to something else and leaving dampening on cloak to not tip eWar scale and at the same time not further marginalizing Minmatar or Amarr.
Starfire Revo Inner.Hell 273	Posted - 2014.05.22 15:58:00 - [119] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Scouts Gal will remain PC viable, though they'll likely become less common. Cal will remain PC viable, due primarily to shared squad sight. Why aren't we discussing how to make the other Scouts PC viable? Why are we discussing additional nerfs? Because there's more to this than just simply buffing the 2 underused Scout suits. If there's problems with underlying game mechanics that are causing balance issues, then those should be looked into. Do we really want Cal scouts to be viable in PC only because of their shared squad vision? Does that lead to interesting gameplay for everyone involved? Are Gal scouts viable because they're the only ones who can be immune to Cal scouts without a huge amount of sacrifice? Do we really want to balance the game around bringing a scout purely for the squad vision benefits? As someone who plays multiple different scout roles and both heavy roles, I'd rather see scouts be more active on the battlefield. I don't want my primary role to involve sitting in a corner while my squad does all the work. If they have to remove squad vision and give us other stuff to do instead, I'd be fine with that. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Rich MO-FO Heaven's Lost Property 6	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:06:00 - [120] - Quote Starfire Revo wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Please elaborate The ability for scouts to passively scan wide areas for their squad means that they're essentially a walking, permanent wall hack for 5 other people. After the cloak change, the Gal scout will be able to see everything above 23.79db within 75m while being undetected himself (if he builds for it). The Cal scout will see everything above 14.91 for the same radius, which creates a barrier that most scouts can't enter unless they get torn to shreds by the 5 other people. If you want Cal scouts to remain as the hunters of other scouts, then they should have to hunt down enemies themselves. So aside from removing the shared passive vision, I'd suggest the following changes (based loosely on Jebus' suggestions). Cal scout: short range precision scout hunter 25% precision 25% reduction to nova knife charge time (nova knives are a cal weapon) Gal scout: ghost 25% dampening 25% cloak regen Min scout: hack and run 25% hacking speed (Min scouts get a higher base stat for this anyway, no need to buff it more) 10% bonus to biotics (with their high base melee damage and speed, this opens up a lot of options) edit: Someone pointed out the numbers on +25% on biotics, so changed it to +10% Ama scout: squad scan support, scans most suits except scouts 25% bonus to ferroscale and reactive plates (I've heard changing movement penalties is hard to make work, so this makes more sense) 25% scan range (gives Amarr their own E-war role and makes sense considering their weapon choices hit out to similar ranges) Also, I'd like to note that while balancing around PC makes some sense considering it's the only full team vs full team mode right now, it has the issues of a limited map pool and limited playerbase. If they're serious about balance changes, I'd rather see full team FW enabled and have them take those figures into consideration too. FW is open to far more people and uses maps outside just the limited large socket selection. Only one that makes sense My Alts are in Real corps

Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 365	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:11:00 - [121] - Quote my proto gall ewar suit has 394 hp :( less if i take away the 2 complex shield extenders for prec. enhancers. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
headbust Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 13	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:14:00 - [122] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: my proto gall ewar suit has 394 hp :( less if i take away the 2 complex shield extenders for prec. enhancers. that not bad considering some these guys give their gall scout right at 1000 hp it can be done ive tested it a scout = once you turn your back on me you'll never be able to look back
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 365	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:14:00 - [123] - Quote maybe we should just designate slots for ewar modules?, hp modules couldnt be put in them :P Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 365	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:16:00 - [124] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: maybe we should just designate slots for ewar modules?, hp modules couldnt be put in them :P example gall scout 2 highs, 2 ewar, 3 lows cal 3 highs 2 ewar 2 lows strictly examples. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
headbust Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 13	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:21:00 - [125] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: maybe we should just designate slots for ewar modules?, hp modules couldnt be put in them :P example gall scout 2 highs, 2 ewar, 3 lows cal 3 highs 2 ewar 2 lows strictly examples. i like it a scout = once you turn your back on me you'll never be able to look back
RedPencil DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:31:00 - [126] - Quote Rich MO-FO wrote: Starfire Revo wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Please elaborate The ability for scouts to passively scan wide areas for their squad means that they're essentially a walking, permanent wall hack for 5 other people. After the cloak change, the Gal scout will be able to see everything above 23.79db within 75m while being undetected himself (if he builds for it). The Cal scout will see everything above 14.91 for the same radius, which creates a barrier that most scouts can't enter unless they get torn to shreds by the 5 other people. If you want Cal scouts to remain as the hunters of other scouts, then they should have to hunt down enemies themselves. So aside from removing the shared passive vision, I'd suggest the following changes (based loosely on Jebus' suggestions). Cal scout: short range precision scout hunter 25% precision 25% reduction to nova knife charge time (nova knives are a cal weapon) Gal scout: ghost 25% dampening 25% cloak regen Min scout: hack and run 25% hacking speed (Min scouts get a higher base stat for this anyway, no need to buff it more) 10% bonus to biotics (with their high base melee damage and speed, this opens up a lot of options) edit: Someone pointed out the numbers on +25% on biotics, so changed it to +10% Ama scout: squad scan support, scans most suits except scouts 25% bonus to ferroscale and reactive plates (I've heard changing movement penalties is hard to make work, so this makes more sense) 25% scan range (gives Amarr their own E-war role and makes sense considering their weapon choices hit out to similar ranges) Also, I'd like to note that while balancing around PC makes some sense considering it's the only full team vs full team mode right now, it has the issues of a limited map pool and limited playerbase. If they're serious about balance changes, I'd rather see full team FW enabled and have them take those figures into consideration too. FW is open to far more people and uses maps outside just the limited large socket selection. Only one that makes sense With this propose, switch Cal and Gal e-war would be nice Cal scout: 25% dampening 25% reduction to nova knife charge time (nova knives are a cal weapon) Gal scout: 25% precision 25% cloak regen Min scout: 25% hacking speed 10% bonus to biotics Ama scout: 25% bonus to ferroscale and reactive plates 25% scan range The slot will counter themselves for all scout and limit them not too OP. With this swop, no need for romove damp on cloak. - 2 low slot will limit Cal not too overpower with damp and ghost match with knife skill quite well. - Gal will be inline with Gal logi bonus. 2 mid slot will limit them not to over shine Gal logi, and shotgun gal still strong with longer cloak duration. - Min remain speed hack. 2(3 on proto) will let them select to be better damp or better speed. -Amarr will be have a long scan range but could not see high skill Cal scout with 2 damp
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 464	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:32:00 - [127] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: maybe we should just designate slots for ewar modules?, hp modules couldnt be put in them :P example gall scout 2 highs, 2 ewar, 3 lows cal 3 highs 2 ewar 2 lows strictly examples. Please complete So you are taking one slot away and giving two ewar slots? "Shine bright like a diamond"
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 365	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:35:00 - [128] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: maybe we should just designate slots for ewar modules?, hp modules couldnt be put in them :P example gall scout 2 highs, 2 ewar, 3 lows cal 3 highs 2 ewar 2 lows strictly examples. Please complete So you are taking one slot away and giving two ewar slots? Strictly examples. :) Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Llast 326 An Arkhos 3181	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:37:00 - [129] - Quote It is unfortunate that we can't add content Remove the Damp bonus and add an Active Dampener module to Equipment. Run the Cloak timer and the Active Dampener timers to be incongruent so you can keep the EWAR waves of opportunity in the game with a level of complexity. Tie the Cal and Gal bonuses to the module Give the Amarr Scout a bonus to Active Dampener. Then we all have choices. KRRROOOOOOM
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 887	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:38:00 - [130] - Quote Starfire Revo wrote: The ability for scouts to passively scan wide areas for their squad means that they're essentially a walking, permanent wall hack for 5 other people. After the cloak change, the Gal scout will be able to see everything above 23.79db within 75m while being undetected himself (if he builds for it). The Cal scout will see everything above 14.91 for the same radius, which creates a barrier that most scouts can't enter unless they get torn to shreds by the 5 other people. If you want Cal scouts to remain as the hunters of other scouts, then they should have to hunt down enemies themselves. So aside from removing the shared passive vision, I'd suggest the following changes (based loosely on Jebus' suggestions). Cal scout: short range precision scout hunter 25% precision 25% reduction to nova knife charge time (nova knives are a cal weapon) Gal scout: ghost 25% dampening 25% cloak regen Min scout: hack and run 25% hacking speed (Min scouts get a higher base stat for this anyway, no need to buff it more) 10% bonus to biotics (with their high base melee damage and speed, this opens up a lot of options) edit: Someone pointed out the numbers on +25% on biotics, so changed it to +10% Ama scout: squad scan support, scans most suits except scouts 25% bonus to ferroscale and reactive plates (I've heard changing movement penalties is hard to make work, so this makes more sense) 25% scan range (gives Amarr their own E-war role and makes sense considering their weapon choices hit out to similar ranges) Also, I'd like to note that while balancing around PC makes some sense considering it's the only full team vs full team mode right now, it has the issues of a limited map pool and limited playerbase. If they're serious about balance changes, I'd rather see full team FW enabled and have them take those figures into consideration too. FW is open to far more people and uses maps outside just the limited large socket selection. I like how you're thinking, but I'd like to point two major concerns. 1) Nova Knife charge time bonus isn't useful. The NK damage bonus is useful, and it is the only the reason why mercs skilled into the Minmatar Scout. I understand Knives are Caldari by design, but we should really try our best to stop sh!tting on Minmatar Scouts. 2) eWar-focused Recon Scouts are highly specialized and fairly tough to keep alive. The Recon Scout's maximum passives are well within range of hostile CRs and RRs; at ~250HP getting spotted means getting insta-gibbed. Recon Scouts pickup one another; no one dampens when trying to optimize scan range. The Recon Scout is too squishy to takedown targets from range and is too squishy to survive protracted CQC engagements (i.e. Sentinel assassination). The only point to running a Recon Scout is to try to benefit one's squadmates; remove shared squad sight and there will be no point to this specialist. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

RedPencil DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:39:00 - [131] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the only viable (PC) meta? Go! swap Gal and Cal e-war bonus and their slot layout will limit themselves not to be OP. EDIT: please reconsidering remove dampening cloaks, it will force Min scout low tier (have only 2 low) to fit 2 damp and lost an ability to fit code breaker for speed hack.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 733	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:43:00 - [132] - Quote The best option I see, which will be wildly unpopular is not to merely remove the dampening bonus of the cloak but to add a dampening penalty to the cloak. This only makes sense as a 160 cpu device should show up on scans. More importantly it forces people to make a choice between being seen on radar or being seen by the eye, being able to be able to be invisible to both is just too powerful an advantage and it requires no tactical decision making about which one to use when. It doesn't break the balance of scouts further and it does make other suits and fittings more viable. Two, balance should absolutely be made around pub matches, not PC. PC players can adapt and change strategies as a team, pub players can't. There is no good reason, other than some elitist attitude that the 5% of the players that do PC should have more sway than the 95% who don't. Catering to the PC players has been fundamental to the collapse of Dust. Because, that's why.
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 631	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:47:00 - [133] - Quote what is the problem with gal scouts compared to the others? i see nothing wrong with any of the scouts except the minmatar and amar, minmatar get a bonusto a weapon thas caldari and the hacking bonus gimped logi suits, & the amar scout is useless bonus wise. just because 2 of the suits are junk dosnt mean that the most used model need to be changed, id say the 2 least used models need to be reworked. DONT MESS WITH THE GAL SCOUT ITS THE ONLY COUNTER TO THE CAL
RedPencil DUST University Ivy League 3	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:59:00 - [134] - Quote Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: what is the problem with gal scouts compared to the others? i see nothing wrong with any of the scouts except the minmatar and amar, minmatar get a bonusto a weapon thas caldari and the hacking bonus gimped logi suits, & the amar scout is useless bonus wise. just because 2 of the suits are junk dosnt mean that the most used model need to be changed, id say the 2 least used models need to be reworked. DONT MESS WITH THE GAL SCOUT ITS THE ONLY COUNTER TO THE CAL Gal and Cal e-war bonus are over shine Min and Amarr. Gal suit stat and layout give them too much advantage. Try to swap Gal and Cal e-war bonus and see. 2 low slots will limit Cal not too over damp, and 2 high slots will limit Gal not to over shine Gal logi.
headbust Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 13	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:07:00 - [135] - Quote RedPencil wrote: Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: what is the problem with gal scouts compared to the others? i see nothing wrong with any of the scouts except the minmatar and amar, minmatar get a bonusto a weapon thas caldari and the hacking bonus gimped logi suits, & the amar scout is useless bonus wise. just because 2 of the suits are junk dosnt mean that the most used model need to be changed, id say the 2 least used models need to be reworked. DONT MESS WITH THE GAL SCOUT ITS THE ONLY COUNTER TO THE CAL Gal and Cal e-war bonus are over shine Min and Amarr. Gal suit stat and layout give them too much advantage. Try to swap Gal and Cal e-war bonus and see. 2 low slots will limit Cal not too over damp, and 2 high slots will limit Gal not to over shine Gal logi. this is the exact opposite there role y would u do that its not needed as said before quit nerfing and help the other 2 scouts by giving them a skill worth 2 cents a scout = once you turn your back on me you'll never be able to look back
Starfire Revo Inner.Hell 275	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:10:00 - [136] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: 1) Nova Knife charge time bonus isn't useful. The NK damage bonus is useful, and it is the only the reason why mercs skilled into the Minmatar Scout. I understand Knives are Caldari by design, but we should really try our best to stop sh!tting on Minmatar Scouts. Do you really want the Min scout's role to revolve entirely around the use of another race's weapon? The other changes I proposed would give them more breathing room when up against other scouts and biotics gives them options to build on their strengths (speed and melee damage). Quote: 2) eWar-focused Recon Scouts are highly specialized and fairly tough to keep alive. The Recon Scout's maximum passives are well within range of hostile CRs and RRs; at ~250HP getting spotted means getting insta-gibbed. Recon Scouts pickup and expose one another; no one dampens when trying to optimize scan range. The Recon Scout is too squishy to takedown targets from range and is too squishy to survive protracted CQC engagements (i.e. Sentinel assassination). The only point to running a Recon Scout is to try to benefit one's squadmates; remove shared squad sight and there will be no point to this specialist. The question is, do pure recon scouts benefit the strategy of how the game gets played? The Cal scout's ability to nullify other scouts by simply existing is causing balance issues. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 631	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:14:00 - [137] - Quote yeah there is nothing wrong with 2 of the scouts and the other 2 are garbage you dont raise the 2 garbage ones by turning the other 2 into garbage. especially now that clocks will not be giving a damping bonus, thats going to make the proto gal scout users super fukin op
Balamob Sver true blood Dirt Nap Squad. 30	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:20:00 - [138] - Quote Ill would go by numbers, setting the actual dB of 35 on scout as my point of refernece (cus its already low and is already hard to detect ba passive scanners by all the rest of the classess), with 1 proto dampener and lvl 5 in profile reduction a total of 35% would reduce all non-gallente up to 12.75 less dB, thus reducing their passive to 22.25dB (dont know if this are the precise numbers, doing math mentally). Now, gallente logi lvl 5 active scanners has a reduction of 25%, this will lead to 1/4 less on the profale he can detect, all proto active scanners (except flux) has an staandar of 28 dB detection, with the reduction would be 7 less, thus 21 to dB detection (with flux would be 15.75 dB detection), this sets caldari/minmatar scouts on sacrificing 2 low slots on complex dampeners, sacrificing health or even the cheapest reps on the cal scout (impossible to reach in the case of flux active scanners). Conclusion, active scaners should be set a number that reaches up to 23 dB with their scanners with their extra reduction on dB profile detection, i choose 23 cus in my experience, ur dB increases a littler when u move (of this i have no clear information) thus an active scanner should detect a scout running like crazy on the battlefield, thus X-(X/4)=23 , being X the number that should be, setting a result of X= 30.666...... , an increase of 2.66.... at proto scanner lvl. With flux scanner i propose to set its dB detection in line with the others but its snap scan shot should be more spammeable. With gallente, they have to reduce their profile dampeners, how much, right now dont know, running out of time n have to go school..... Being a Templar is a vow for life.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 366	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:21:00 - [139] - Quote well if matari ewar bonus is hacking, then maybe the amar can set up a "firewall" by "hacking an already hacked objective" Thus increasing the amount of time needed to hack for all other roles, except for the matari, which would be normal hacking speed? Encrypting 5% per lvl :p Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 887	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:22:00 - [140] - Quote Starfire Revo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 1) Nova Knife charge time bonus isn't useful. The NK damage bonus is useful, and it is the only the reason why mercs skilled into the Minmatar Scout. I understand Knives are Caldari by design, but we should really try our best to stop sh!tting on Minmatar Scouts. Do you really want the Min scout's role to revolve entirely around the use of another race's weapon? The other changes I proposed would give them more breathing room when up against other scouts and biotics gives them options to build on their strengths (speed and melee damage). Quote: 2) eWar-focused Recon Scouts are highly specialized and fairly tough to keep alive. The Recon Scout's maximum passives are well within range of hostile CRs and RRs; at ~250HP getting spotted means getting insta-gibbed. Recon Scouts pickup and expose one another; no one dampens when trying to optimize scan range. The Recon Scout is too squishy to takedown targets from range and is too squishy to survive protracted CQC engagements (i.e. Sentinel assassination). The only point to running a Recon Scout is to try to benefit one's squadmates; remove shared squad sight and there will be no point to this specialist. The question is, do pure recon scouts benefit the strategy of how the game gets played? The Cal scout's ability to nullify other scouts by simply existing is causing balance issues. 1) What I really want is irrelevant. If this is your angle, it makes more sense to recast Nova Knives as Minmatar technology. The biotic bonuses would no doubt be well received; but Minmatar mobility makes them best suited for knifing. Let them keep their knives. 2) Recon Scouts are not causing balance issues. They are already easily countered. They are easily killed. And once the dampening bonus is removed from cloak, GalLogi's will pick up them up with near minimal effort. As for "Benefit the strategy of how the game gets played?" I have no idea what that means. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

m621 zma Seraphim Initiative.. 122	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:23:00 - [141] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: A medium suit with 2 complex damps has just over 26dB scan profile, not the 12.5 you claim (-10% from skills and 2x-25% from damps does not even equal -60%, let alone -75% that you claim, its around -43% after you account for stacking penalties You do know he's talking about 1.7 not 1.8? Do you know the difference between Theory and Practice? If so, it helps to get your Theory correct in the first place. In 1.7 you received 25% dampening for Lvl 5 Profile dampening http://dust514.wikia.com/wiki/Skill:Profile_Dampening And whilst your math (apart from that) 'may' be correct? In practice, when you were actually playing the game (not just whacking off over some spreadsheets) it didn't work like that. in 1.7 2 complex dampeners on a medium suit beat ALL active scanners.
RedPencil DUST University Ivy League 3	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:29:00 - [142] - Quote headbust wrote: RedPencil wrote: Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: what is the problem with gal scouts compared to the others? i see nothing wrong with any of the scouts except the minmatar and amar, minmatar get a bonusto a weapon thas caldari and the hacking bonus gimped logi suits, & the amar scout is useless bonus wise. just because 2 of the suits are junk dosnt mean that the most used model need to be changed, id say the 2 least used models need to be reworked. DONT MESS WITH THE GAL SCOUT ITS THE ONLY COUNTER TO THE CAL Gal and Cal e-war bonus are over shine Min and Amarr. Gal suit stat and layout give them too much advantage. Try to swap Gal and Cal e-war bonus and see. 2 low slots will limit Cal not too over damp, and 2 high slots will limit Gal not to over shine Gal logi. this is the exact opposite there role y would u do that its not needed as said before quit nerfing and help the other 2 scouts by giving them a skill worth 2 cents Please give me a explanation how can those opposite their role? The change Gal with scan bonus in line with Gal logo and Cal with damp bonus will match with nova knife. I assume that you are enjoy the advantage of Gal so much and don't want to change it. I think along those 4 scout Min scout is the most balance. Their bonus is useful and slot layout is flexible enough to select what do they want to do. E-war bonus with their slot layout give them too strong and over shine Amarr and Min.
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 636	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:33:00 - [143] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: it is impossible to hide from a Gal logi using a focused scan with only a medium frame. And that is how it should be. And a Proto Gal scout should be able to hide from a Gal Logi - and it shouldn't involve the Gal Scout having to use 3 or 4 slots for damps to do it.
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 636	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:35:00 - [144] - Quote Haerr wrote: I've got not idea of whether or not I am a ***** ****** since it got filtered, if you wouldn't mind posting it in a way that I can read it I could get back to you on that one. Have you ever seen the player with the name 'Rucking Fetard'?
RedPencil DUST University Ivy League 4	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:43:00 - [145] - Quote Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: yeah there is nothing wrong with 2 of the scouts and the other 2 are garbage you dont raise the 2 garbage ones by turning the other 2 into garbage. especially now that clocks will not be giving a damping bonus, thats going to make the proto gal scout users super fukin op True, Amarr scout is a joke but not Min cout. I'm not sure if you ever run Min or Amarr scout. Min need 2 damp to stay under pro to Active scan but still see by Cal, with their 2(3 at pro to) low slots limit them to chose to be low profile or a speed hack. I think the idea that you have to choose wisely how to fit is a basic balance. Try to give an proper explanation not to limit down Gal and Cal scout please.
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 631	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:44:00 - [146] - Quote RedPencil wrote: headbust wrote: RedPencil wrote: Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: what is the problem with gal scouts compared to the others? i see nothing wrong with any of the scouts except the minmatar and amar, minmatar get a bonusto a weapon thas caldari and the hacking bonus gimped logi suits, & the amar scout is useless bonus wise. just because 2 of the suits are junk dosnt mean that the most used model need to be changed, id say the 2 least used models need to be reworked. DONT MESS WITH THE GAL SCOUT ITS THE ONLY COUNTER TO THE CAL Gal and Cal e-war bonus are over shine Min and Amarr. Gal suit stat and layout give them too much advantage. Try to swap Gal and Cal e-war bonus and see. 2 low slots will limit Cal not too over damp, and 2 high slots will limit Gal not to over shine Gal logi. this is the exact opposite there role y would u do that its not needed as said before quit nerfing and help the other 2 scouts by giving them a skill worth 2 cents Please give me a explanation how can those opposite their role? The change Gal with scan bonus in line with Gal logo and Cal with damp bonus will match with nova knife. I assume that you are enjoy the advantage of Gal so much and don't want to change it. I think along those 4 scout Min scout is the most balance. Their bonus is useful and slot layout is flexible enough to select what do they want to do. E-war bonus with their slot layout give them too strong and over shine Amarr and Min. so u want to swap the gal and cal role bonuses but that willl not change the fact that the other 2 suits are still garbage and without decent role bonuses, which dosnt warent a change to the 2 scouts that actually work correctly and are useful. the minmatar needs to get a sidearm damage bonus and a bonus to explosives and the amar needs something like laser damage bonus and maby cloak duration. the speed hacking needs to be put back on all logi suits and there u go probemfixed
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 528	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:54:00 - [147] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Garth Mandra wrote: Reduce the dampening bonus on cloaks and make them progress with tier. Something like 10% for standard, 15% for advanced and 20% for proto. This seems like a reasonable suggestion, but maybe still sticking with 0%, 5%, 10% with a zero baseline. Don't do this. This increases the difference from STD to PRO even further, whereas we should try to reduce the gap between new and old players. Stick with 0% dampening on cloaks. This is the best change so far in hotfix alpha. It doesn't however address the fact that Gallente Scouts are better than the other Scouts since it affects all of them equally. Once armor plates are back in line I believe the Gallente Scout will be much more balanced towards Minmatar and Caldari Scouts. Probably also towards Assault suits because it will have a harder time compensating for the native ehp difference between Scouts and Assaults (130 hp right now) without sacrificing it's speed. The Amarr Scout though will suffer equally so it'll likely become extinct in hotfix alpha. ... When considering the balance of Scouts you should consider that a dampener and a range extender are among the most useful things a Scout can have. Everyone would like more of these on their fittings. Every other racial Scout bonus is situational while the Gallente ones are useful to everyone.
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 465	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:05:00 - [148] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: ... When considering the balance of Scouts you should consider that a dampener and a range extender are among the most useful things a Scout can have. Everyone would like more of these on their fittings. Every other racial Scout bonus is situational while the Gallente ones are useful to everyone. Out of the park!!! "Shine bright like a diamond"
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 631	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:09:00 - [149] - Quote explain to me how the gal scout is better, i dont understand. the cal scout is just as good as the gal. its the min and amar that suk
Starfire Revo Inner.Hell 275	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:12:00 - [150] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: 1) What I really want is irrelevant. If this is your angle, it makes more sense to recast Nova Knives as Minmatar technology. The biotic bonuses you've proposed would no doubt be well received; but they are knifers by training and tactics, let them keep their knives. Don't take my word for it; Mr Musturd and Cyrius Li-Moody are both Minmatar Scouts are are both your in your corp. 2) Recon Scouts are not causing balance issues. They are easily countered. They are easily killed. And once the dampening bonus is removed from cloak, GalLogi's will pick up them up with near minimal effort. As for "Benefit the strategy of how the game gets played?" I have no idea what that means. Biotic bonuses make the knife bonus somewhat irrelevant as Min scouts get increased based melee damage anyway. Having bonuses to 2 different melee styles on a single suit is a bit pointless, especially when one of those bonuses is to another race's weapon. There's a debate to be had about which role the Min scout could benefit from more, I'm just going with the racial style ones. Even with the cloak change, a single complex damp will still get you under gal/amarr scouts and 1c+1e will get you under everything else except gal logi focused scanners and cal scouts. You sacrifice range, but you're still spotting people for your squad in that situation. I'll rephrase my question that I asked: Does this make for interesting and engaging gameplay? Does squad view add more strategy to the game than it removes? Does it positively or negatively impact the game's balance? I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com

RedPencil DUST University Ivy League 4	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:20:00 - [151] - Quote Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: so u want to swap the gal and cal role bonuses but that willl not change the fact that the other 2 suits are still garbage and without decent role bonuses, which dosnt warent a change to the 2 scouts that actually work correctly and are useful. the minmatar needs to get a sidearm damage bonus and a bonus to explosives and the amar needs something like laser damage bonus and maby cloak duration. the speed hacking needs to be put back on all logi suits and there u go probemfixed I propose my idea so that we can have an augment to find a better solution. Right now, Gal and Cal bonus are too strong. It over shine other 2 scout and Gal logo who suppose to be the best scanner. Considering a swap bonus, it will limit down Gal and Cal to be selective when fitting. Gal with 2 high slots limit them not to over shine Gal logi and if they will have to trade of there speed or tank with damp to stay low profile. On other ways, Cal with 2 low slots could fit only 2 complex damp. It strong but not over proto active scan. it will be useful for scan with stack up scan on high slot. For Min, I just gonna copy and paste what I said earlier. Min need 2 damp to stay under pro to Active scan but still see by Cal, with their 2(3 at pro to) low slots limit them to chose to be low profile or a speed hack. I think the idea that you have to choose wisely how to fit is a basic balance. Like you said, Amarr scout is a joke and their bonus is garbage. The bonus give them run faster and longer but still out run by other. Sad but true, i want to ask CCP Why Amarr have speed bonus? it suppose to be Min so it will match with hack bonus and complete the role of speed hack like you defined. Why Min have Nova knife bonus? It is Cal weapon. If Cal have damp bonus, it would match with knifing skill. Why Cal bonus beat down Gal logi? with active scan who support to be master in scan. Why Gal is a master ninja who is no one can scan? It totally broke active scans logic.
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 639	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:22:00 - [152] - Quote m621 zma wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: A medium suit with 2 complex damps has just over 26dB scan profile, not the 12.5 you claim (-10% from skills and 2x-25% from damps does not even equal -60%, let alone -75% that you claim, its around -43% after you account for stacking penalties You do know he's talking about 1.7 not 1.8? Do you know the difference between Theory and Practice? If so, it helps to get your Theory correct in the first place. In 1.7 you received 25% dampening for Lvl 5 Profile dampening http://dust514.wikia.com/wiki/Skill:Profile_Dampening And whilst your math (apart from that) 'may' be correct? In practice, when you were actually playing the game (not just whacking off over some spreadsheets) it didn't work like that. in 1.7 2 complex dampeners on a medium suit beat ALL active scanners. All but the focused. I also ran 2 complex dampeners on a subset of my suits and never got scanned in a Pub match. Only pulled them out if a Proto scanner came out. The focused just wasn't used in Pub matches in 1.7. YouTube
headbust Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 16	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:25:00 - [153] - Quote RedPencil wrote: headbust wrote: RedPencil wrote: Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: what is the problem with gal scouts compared to the others? i see nothing wrong with any of the scouts except the minmatar and amar, minmatar get a bonusto a weapon thas caldari and the hacking bonus gimped logi suits, & the amar scout is useless bonus wise. just because 2 of the suits are junk dosnt mean that the most used model need to be changed, id say the 2 least used models need to be reworked. DONT MESS WITH THE GAL SCOUT ITS THE ONLY COUNTER TO THE CAL Gal and Cal e-war bonus are over shine Min and Amarr. Gal suit stat and layout give them too much advantage. Try to swap Gal and Cal e-war bonus and see. 2 low slots will limit Cal not too over damp, and 2 high slots will limit Gal not to over shine Gal logi. this is the exact opposite there role y would u do that its not needed as said before quit nerfing and help the other 2 scouts by giving them a skill worth 2 cents Please give me a explanation how can those opposite their role? The change Gal with scan bonus in line with Gal logo and Cal with damp bonus will match with nova knife. I assume that you are enjoy the advantage of Gal so much and don't want to change it. I think along those 4 scout Min scout is the most balance. Their bonus is useful and slot layout is flexible enough to select what do they want to do. E-war bonus with their slot layout give them too strong and over shine Amarr and Min. i run both gal and cal scout and i know how to counter each one and the gal scout has been known as the infiltrator since day one i dont care about the logi take the logi crap to another post this is a scout post u are suggesting the cal SCOUT and the gal SCOUT completely change roles this is wat i see as dumb i have another thread that explains how to fix the dampened brick scout so simply if u would look at another forum all u have to do is give armor modules a profile penalty a scout = once you turn your back on me you'll never be able to look back
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2517	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:25:00 - [154] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the *only viable (PC) meta*? Go! I'm going to stress this again. There is a huge inseparable difference between new players and vets that can only be overcome with SP accumulation. PC, competitive play, max stats are all one in the same here. Many of the suggestions here cater to players under 25 million SP or players that had generalized SP distributions. If you want to ask about the PC meta, you have to ask the questions to the people that have been playing it. If someone says you should make an adjustment to some numbers then ask them for the math along with it. -I've left it out of my posts so I'll include it all in this one. We've got 5 opinions in this thread: Punitive action on scouts, flawed ideas that lead to pushing towards a single scout suit, irrelevant changes to put the game in a player's personal vision, and ideas that simply break the game, and keep the status quo because the balance is too sensitive to make a single change . (I really wish I could add a table on the forums) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d_CKdTWACDt9pS8kAFXT9NIqFem8O4KOfI_aL6vU_o0/edit?usp=sharing You can look at the numbers there. If you're completely adamant about removing the dampening bonus from Cloak Fields then Caldari Scan bonus needs to change to 3% per level to efficacy of Precision Enhancers to keep it close to balanced. This would mean Gallente profile dampening bonus and Minmatar hacking bonus also be changed to affect modules instead of being innate. While at the same time you MUST fix Active Scanners. Their Precision is far too low and their cool down is too high. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 890	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:31:00 - [155] - Quote Starfire Revo wrote: Biotic bonuses make the knife bonus somewhat irrelevant as Min scouts get increased based melee damage anyway. Having bonuses to 2 different melee styles on a single suit is a bit pointless, especially when one of those bonuses is to another race's weapon. There's a debate to be had about which role the Min scout could benefit from more, I'm just going with the racial style ones. Even with the cloak change, a single complex damp will still get you under gal/amarr scouts and 1c+1e will get you under everything else except gal logi focused scanners and cal scouts. You sacrifice range, but you're still spotting people for your squad in that situation. I'll rephrase my question that I asked: Does this make for interesting and engaging gameplay? Does squad view add more strategy to the game than it removes? Does it positively or negatively impact the game's balance? We've entered into the realm of theorycraft. Here, I have no expertise. You win. Scouts may need tweaking here and there, but for the most part they are not broken. There are things in Dust which are plainly broken. I propose we focus our efforts and resources on prioritizing those things. Rather than waxing and waning on dreams utopian. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5412	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:38:00 - [156] - Quote Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: explain to me how the gal scout is better, i dont understand. the cal scout is just as good as the gal. its the min and amar that suk The Gallente is the true infiltrator which make's it the best at the "scout" role that has existed in Dust for a long time. The Gallente are the best at close quarters, at flanking, at ninja hacking, at dropping uplinks, at solo point defense, etc etc. They're the best for nearly everything because they are ghosts. They only have to give up 2 slots (a damp and a cloak) as opposed to 3 slots (2 damps and cloak) to become ghosts. Caldari is at a close second because it forces Gallente and other scouts to lose a low slot for a damp to continue scouting. This is a fact that CCP should consider. A precision tanked Caldari is the norm in a competitive environment because THAT is the best counter to someone attempting to infiltrate Arguably the BEST feature of a scout that should never be taken away from ANY of them is their ability to avoid detection. That's why you run a scout. To get behind enemy lines and hit them from where they least expect it. If a scout fails to avoid detection they are a worthless on the battlefield because they cannot fulfill their role as a stealth unit. A scout who is constantly getting scanned via passive or active is better off in an entirely different suit or simply ehp tanking and playing the role of an assault because that's all they'll be good for. Removing the ability for every scout to easily avoid detection is like removing a sentinel's ability to easily tank ehp. Honestly it seems to me like they're not even sure how their game is currently played and why. I don't mean that to be rude. It just seems like they're out of touch with their own mechanics and player base. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 890	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:44:00 - [157] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The Gallente is the true infiltrator which makes it the best at the "scout" role that has existed in Dust for a long time. The Gallente are the best at close quarters, at flanking, at ninja hacking, at dropping uplinks, at solo point defense, etc etc. They're the best for nearly everything because they are ghosts. They only have to give up 2 slots (a damp and a cloak) as opposed to 3 slots (2 damps and cloak) to become ghosts. Caldari is at a close second because it forces Gallente and other scouts to lose a low slot for a damp to continue scouting. This is a fact that CCP should consider. A precision tanked Caldari is the norm in a competitive environment because THAT is the best counter to someone attempting to infiltrate Arguably the BEST feature of a scout that should never be taken away from ANY of them is their ability to avoid detection. That's why you run a scout. To get behind enemy lines and hit them from where they least expect it. If a scout fails to avoid detection they are a worthless asset on the battlefield because they cannot fulfill their role as a stealth unit. A scout who is constantly getting scanned via passive or active is better off in an entirely different suit or simply ehp tanking and playing the role of an assault because that's all they'll be good for. Removing the ability for every scout to easily avoid detection is like removing a sentinel's ability to easily tank ehp. Honestly it seems to me like they're not even sure how their game is currently played and why. I don't mean that to be rude. It just seems like they're out of touch with their own mechanics and player base. For the sake of Dust, everyone please read this. +1 Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
headbust Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:45:00 - [158] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: explain to me how the gal scout is better, i dont understand. the cal scout is just as good as the gal. its the min and amar that suk The Gallente is the true infiltrator which makes it the best at the "scout" role that has existed in Dust for a long time. The Gallente are the best at close quarters, at flanking, at ninja hacking, at dropping uplinks, at solo point defense, etc etc. They're the best for nearly everything because they are ghosts. They only have to give up 2 slots (a damp and a cloak) as opposed to 3 slots (2 damps and cloak) to become ghosts. Caldari is at a close second because it forces Gallente and other scouts to lose a low slot for a damp to continue scouting. This is a fact that CCP should consider. A precision tanked Caldari is the norm in a competitive environment because THAT is the best counter to someone attempting to infiltrate Arguably the BEST feature of a scout that should never be taken away from ANY of them is their ability to avoid detection. That's why you run a scout. To get behind enemy lines and hit them from where they least expect it. If a scout fails to avoid detection they are a worthless asset on the battlefield because they cannot fulfill their role as a stealth unit. A scout who is constantly getting scanned via passive or active is better off in an entirely different suit or simply ehp tanking and playing the role of an assault because that's all they'll be good for. Removing the ability for every scout to easily avoid detection is like removing a sentinel's ability to easily tank ehp. Honestly it seems to me like they're not even sure how their game is currently played and why. I don't mean that to be rude. It just seems like they're out of touch with their own mechanics and player base. excactly ccp do you play your game with the pub or on your own closed circuit a scout = once you turn your back on me you'll never be able to look back
shoot last Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:48:00 - [159] - Quote How about changing profile damps to high slots and precision enhanc. to low slots. Keep the cloak damp, and the skills as are now. Gal will not be able to duel tank if they want to hide and can only use max of two modules to damp. If they want to see others they have to give up armor and use precision enhancers. Cal will have to give up shields to be hidden and if they want to see most everything they have to give up armor and range. Min would be able to achieve good profile damp and have some precision or speed. Amarr would be able to have good precision and okay damp. Im sure there are flaws but, could be tried to see what happens.
RedPencil DUST University Ivy League 4	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:50:00 - [160] - Quote headbust wrote: RedPencil wrote: headbust wrote: RedPencil wrote: Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: what is the problem with gal scouts compared to the others? i see nothing wrong with any of the scouts except the minmatar and amar, minmatar get a bonusto a weapon thas caldari and the hacking bonus gimped logi suits, & the amar scout is useless bonus wise. just because 2 of the suits are junk dosnt mean that the most used model need to be changed, id say the 2 least used models need to be reworked. DONT MESS WITH THE GAL SCOUT ITS THE ONLY COUNTER TO THE CAL Gal and Cal e-war bonus are over shine Min and Amarr. Gal suit stat and layout give them too much advantage. Try to swap Gal and Cal e-war bonus and see. 2 low slots will limit Cal not too over damp, and 2 high slots will limit Gal not to over shine Gal logi. this is the exact opposite there role y would u do that its not needed as said before quit nerfing and help the other 2 scouts by giving them a skill worth 2 cents Please give me a explanation how can those opposite their role? The change Gal with scan bonus in line with Gal logo and Cal with damp bonus will match with nova knife. I assume that you are enjoy the advantage of Gal so much and don't want to change it. I think along those 4 scout Min scout is the most balance. Their bonus is useful and slot layout is flexible enough to select what do they want to do. E-war bonus with their slot layout give them too strong and over shine Amarr and Min. i run both gal and cal scout and i know how to counter each one and the gal scout has been known as the infiltrator since day one i dont care about the logi take the logi crap to another post this is a scout post u are suggesting the cal SCOUT and the gal SCOUT completely change roles this is wat i see as dumb i have another thread that explains how to fix the dampened brick scout so simply if u would look at another forum all u have to do is give armor modules a profile penalty Call other people dumb but ignore the big picture is even dumber. They skill bonus are tie down together. BTW, this is Gal scout fix. if you talk about brick scout, go back to ur thread.

RedPencil DUST University Ivy League 4	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:57:00 - [161] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: explain to me how the gal scout is better, i dont understand. the cal scout is just as good as the gal. its the min and amar that suk The Gallente is the true infiltrator which makes it the best at the "scout" role that has existed in Dust for a long time. The Gallente are the best at close quarters, at flanking, at ninja hacking, at dropping uplinks, at solo point defense, etc etc. They're the best for nearly everything because they are ghosts. They only have to give up 2 slots (a damp and a cloak) as opposed to 3 slots (2 damps and cloak) to become ghosts. Caldari is at a close second because it forces Gallente and other scouts to lose a low slot for a damp to continue scouting. This is a fact that CCP should consider. A precision tanked Caldari is the norm in a competitive environment because THAT is the best counter to someone attempting to infiltrate Arguably the BEST feature of a scout that should never be taken away from ANY of them is their ability to avoid detection. That's why you run a scout. To get behind enemy lines and hit them from where they least expect it. If a scout fails to avoid detection they are a worthless asset on the battlefield because they cannot fulfill their role as a stealth unit. A scout who is constantly getting scanned via passive or active is better off in an entirely different suit or simply ehp tanking and playing the role of an assault because that's all they'll be good for. Removing the ability for every scout to easily avoid detection is like removing a sentinel's ability to easily tank ehp. Honestly it seems to me like they're not even sure how their game is currently played and why. I don't mean that to be rude. It just seems like they're out of touch with their own mechanics and player base. Moody, I don't c u update ur youtube lately, what's wrong? Also can you give me a feedback about the idea that swap Cal and Gal e-war bonus?
headbust Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 21	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:58:00 - [162] - Quote this will fix the gal scout DUH AND THE BRICK SCOUT IS THE GAL SCOUT GOSH I NEVER CALLED U DUMB i said the switching of roles is dumb a scout = once you turn your back on me you'll never be able to look back
pseudosnipre Fatal Absolution 757	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:59:00 - [163] - Quote Is dampening the ONLY good thing about the scout suit? I hate that all my competitive 1.8 fits HAVE to have a cloak. Stop being so shortsighted. CCP can still change backend data on the fly, so get creative. All the scouts are too alike to make them interesting. And seriously, increase the penalty to armor plate stacking on scouts already. My 120lb scout should not be sprinting under 120lbs of armor plates. Gallente is the only racial that shouldnt have to stack dampeners to stay off tacnet. Get over it. In fact, remove the range bonus and make it an armor rep bonus, like 2hp/s per level. Now, with that said... Caldari scouts shouldnt have to stack range and precision mods to see enemies at 50m. Give them a better racial bonus for each, but let them light up tacnet like a christmas tree. After all, they should accel at long distance weapons but suffer at close range. Besides, they already stack shields. Oh, and change caldari scout (only) sniper zoom to outline targets through walls. Minmatar are supposed to be speed assassins, so give them better mobility (+.15m/s per lvl) and sprint (+.5m/s per lvl) stats and nerf their ability to tank...let them be NK glass cannons with crazy hack speed. Yes I'm talking crazy stuff, like 15m/s with kincats stacked...even if you have to goober it up by making it a duration skill. Eliminate the (increased scout) armor stacking penalty for amarr and let them keep their stamina bonuses. Plus 10% gold thread content to their suit or something. Better yet, give them a heat buildup bonus to scr and lsr. I'm tired of this lame tuning approach, make the game exciting and dynamic already. I want a reason to skill other scout suits. Today is the sort of day where the sun only comes up to humiliate you. BitterVet the turkey says GOML GOML GOML
RedPencil DUST University Ivy League 4	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:01:00 - [164] - Quote headbust wrote: this will fix the gal scout DUH AND THE BRICK SCOUT IS THE GAL SCOUT GOSH I NEVER CALLED U DUMB i said the switching of roles is dumb as my apology. Could you tell me why swap those bonus is dumb?
pseudosnipre Fatal Absolution 757	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:03:00 - [165] - Quote If you keep scouts damped, please: Increase armor stacking penalty on light frames significantly. And Cause shield extenders to increase profile significantly. Today is the sort of day where the sun only comes up to humiliate you. BitterVet the turkey says GOML GOML GOML
RedPencil DUST University Ivy League 4	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:13:00 - [166] - Quote pseudosnipre wrote: Is dampening the ONLY good thing about the scout suit? I hate that all my competitive 1.8 fits HAVE to have a cloak. Stop being so shortsighted. CCP can still change backend data on the fly, so get creative. All the scouts are too alike to make them interesting. And seriously, increase the penalty to armor plate stacking on scouts already. My 120lb scout should not be sprinting under 120lbs of armor plates. Gallente is the only racial that shouldnt have to stack dampeners to stay off tacnet. Get over it. In fact, remove the range bonus and make it an armor rep bonus, like 2hp/s per level. Now, with that said... Caldari scouts shouldnt have to stack range and precision mods to see enemies at 50m. Give them a better racial bonus for each, but let them light up tacnet like a christmas tree. After all, they should accel at long distance weapons but suffer at close range. Besides, they already stack shields. Oh, and change caldari scout (only) sniper zoom to outline targets through walls. Minmatar are supposed to be speed assassins, so give them better mobility (+.15m/s per lvl) and sprint (+.5m/s per lvl) stats and nerf their ability to tank...let them be NK glass cannons with crazy hack speed. Yes I'm talking crazy stuff, like 15m/s with kincats stacked...even if you have to goober it up by making it a duration skill. Eliminate the (increased scout) armor stacking penalty for amarr and let them keep their stamina bonuses. Plus 10% gold thread content to their suit or something. Better yet, give them a heat buildup bonus to scr and lsr. I'm tired of this lame tuning approach, make the game exciting and dynamic already. I want a reason to skill other scout suits. Agree, if not swap Gal and Cal bonus. What about. Cal 5% scan per lv 5% damage knife per lv (it Cal weapon anyway) Gal -5% damp per lv 1+ armor regen per lv Min 5% hack per lv 5% speed per lv Ama 5% scan range per lv -5% plate stack pen per lv
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 529	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:17:00 - [167] - Quote Personally I think balancing for planetary conquest is a terrible idea. If 0.5% of the community have a terrible time so that the rest can enjoy the game then I'm all for it. That said, Scouts worked well before there was additional dampening on cloaks and they actually used to have much worse stats than they do now. They'll still rock even if you have to equip a dampener to avoid prototype scanners. Remember that active scanners got a huge nerf and are totally useless against cloaked scouts right now. You'll manage being scanned for 5 seconds once a minute.
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5416	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:17:00 - [168] - Quote The only way they'll make dampening less important is if they nerf the hell out of the tacnet. Meaning no more chevron wallhacks. No more showing what direction you're facing. Getting scanned is the worst thing that can happen to you. Good players know how to use and abuse the tacnet system because it is OP as hell. Getting scanned is a death sentence. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Starfire Revo Inner.Hell 276	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:22:00 - [169] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The only way they'll make dampening less important is if they nerf the hell out of the tacnet. Meaning no more chevron wallhacks. No more showing what direction you're facing. Getting scanned is the worst thing that can happen to you. Good players know how to use and abuse the tacnet system because it is OP as hell. What would your thoughts be on these changes if they removed passive shared squad vision? I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1074	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:25:00 - [170] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the only viable (PC) meta? Go! The problem with the gallente/caldari and amarr/minmatar scouts is really fundamental design of the suits and imbalances in slots. Scout suits (as all suits in this game) seem to have two design goals, a generalized role (class role) and a specialized role (racial role). These characteristics can broadly define the suits as ewar and stealth suits. The generalized role is outlined by base stats, slot layouts, and class-wide bonuses. In the case of scouts as a whole you have low base HP high base speed and stamina cloaks great precision/profiles/range (ewar) Then you have genralized racial base stat bonuses" amarr - higher HP/stamina and low speed caldari - shield recharge gallente - armor regen minmatar - insane stamina regen, great speed, inate hacking and low HP So from the get go, you already have a balance problem, not all of these racial characteristics are equal Next you have specialization bonuses amarr - stamina/regen (1 lackluster biotic bonus) caldari - precision and range (2 great ewar bonuses) gallente - dampening and range (2 great ewar bonuses) minmatar - damage and hacking (1 lackluster damage and 1 good ewar-ish) As you can see, not all of the specialization bonuses are well balanced either. 2 suits have double ewar bonuses, 1 suit has no ewar bonus, and another suit has an ok ewar bonus. Compound all of the above with the scout's ability to have very large HP pools (due to absolute values aon tanking mods) and competitive damage (due to weapons mostly being the same acros suits) and you have your problems outlined. The solution to the gallente scout is too blook at the class as a whole, not individually. If you clearly define the roles that you want the scout to have, and then procedd from there you can then finally balance them all against eachother. Fixing swarms

Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 634	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:26:00 - [171] - Quote RedPencil wrote: Call other people dumb but ignore the big picture is even dumber. They skill bonus are tie down together. BTW, this is Gal scout fix. if you talk about brick scout, go back to ur thread. go back to what thread fool, we are trying to keep you idiots from ruining the caldari and gallente scouts and at the same time trying to find useful bonuses to the min and amar suits. we have already suggested a fix to brick tanked scouts by changing armor plates to make them add to the scan profile of the suit. the cal and gal scouts are fine how they currently are its a non issue, the issue is that minmatar and amar scouts suk
Ghost Kaisar The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 4838	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:28:00 - [172] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Starfire Revo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 1) Nova Knife charge time bonus isn't useful. The NK damage bonus is useful, and it is the only the reason why mercs skilled into the Minmatar Scout. I understand Knives are Caldari by design, but we should really try our best to stop sh!tting on Minmatar Scouts. Do you really want the Min scout's role to revolve entirely around the use of another race's weapon? The other changes I proposed would give them more breathing room when up against other scouts and biotics gives them options to build on their strengths (speed and melee damage). Quote: 2) eWar-focused Recon Scouts are highly specialized and fairly tough to keep alive. The Recon Scout's maximum passives are well within range of hostile CRs and RRs; at ~250HP getting spotted means getting insta-gibbed. Recon Scouts pickup and expose one another; no one dampens when trying to optimize scan range. The Recon Scout is too squishy to takedown targets from range and is too squishy to survive protracted CQC engagements (i.e. Sentinel assassination). The only point to running a Recon Scout is to try to benefit one's squadmates; remove shared squad sight and there will be no point to this specialist. The question is, do pure recon scouts benefit the strategy of how the game gets played? The Cal scout's ability to nullify other scouts by simply existing is causing balance issues. 1) What I really want is irrelevant. If this is your angle, it makes more sense to recast Nova Knives as Minmatar technology. The biotic bonuses you've proposed would no doubt be well received; but our current Minja Community are knifers by training and tactics; let them keep their knives. Mr Musturd and Cyrius Li-Moody (veteran Minmatar Scouts) are both in your corp. You should hit them up for input before sh!tting on them. 2) Recon Scouts are not causing balance issues. They are easily countered. They are extremely vulnerable. They are easily killed. And once the dampening bonus is removed from cloak, GalLogi's will pick up them up with near minimal effort. As for "benefit the strategy of how the game gets played?" I have no idea what that means. * I agree that CalScouts are at distinct advantage over Minmatar Scouts (and only Minmatar Scouts). * I agree that Hotfix Alpha will reinforce this CalScout advantage over MinScout. * Breaking everything to resolve one issue makes no sense; buff the MinScout, solve the problem. Exactly. Cal and Gal scouts will be in an excellent place after this hotfix. Their roles will be solidified. However, the Amarr and Min HAVE to be brought up to par. How this is done is what is being discussed. We know that something has to be done, but what? Personally, I think they need bonuses that reinforce their role. So one must ask, what are their roles? Minmatar Scout CQC Scout, Hacker, and Assassin. Everything about these words screams creating chaos. So how do we use bonuses to reinforce this? Hacking is already done, and done well. Min Scout hacks are great in PC, as you can easily counter hack with someone watching your back. It also allows you to "ninja hack" if you manage to find an objective with a single guardian. As for assassination. Hear me out, but I want to get RID of the knife bonus. Knives shouldn't need a bonus to be deadly. I honestly think that the base damage should be raised by 25%. Make them deadly for all. Dump the bonus. Nobody should have to sink huge SP into Knives just so that they can actually hurt people. They're freaking knives, if you get within the 2m it takes to hit them, they should deal insane damage. CQC. Speed and Melee are what scream "CQC" to me. The ability to rush in, and quickly knock down targets point blank. I would like to propose a 25% increase to base melee damage along with a increase in base sprint speed by 2% per level. This makes the Min scout have a 9.1 m/s base sprint after Biotic V and Scout V. With a Single Speed mod, you can make this guy sprint at 10.2 m/s. This makes the min scout the fastest scout, hands down, although you will be using low slots to do this. Melee damage will increase to 150 after this bonus, making it on par with Heavy melee. With a single Mybo, this is pushed up to 263. Now, in order to use these bonuses in conjunction, you will have to use those high and low slots. Melee only really shines after 400 melee, as you can 2 shot most med frames, and one shot most light frames. So, the ideal build would be something like this: 1x Complex Shield 2x Complex Mybo Weapon Sidearm Grenade Cloak for dodging pesky med frames 1x Complex Speed 1x Complex Hack 1x Complex Damp or whatever you want. The suit has really low eHP, but excels at point blank combat. It has 433 melee damage, and sprints at 10.2 m/s. It also hacks at a factor of 2.15, letting it hack objectives in less than 5 seconds. eHP is 198 shields and 87 armor. This is what I believe that the Min Scout will need to stay competitive (for me). It will have a role and will excel in it, and that role will have viable use in PC. It will be excellent at rapidly eliminating wounded med frames or quickly killing logis that rep heavies. They will also be viable rapid response for letters being hacked, able to quickly sprint up and melee the person to death. They can counter hack afterwards if needed. Headed to Destiny, to Hell with CCP PSN: EVL_Elgost105 RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1075	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:31:00 - [173] - Quote To follow up, what would I do? Change HP modules to percentage based with stacking penalties. (this means you can put more HP on a scout, but you will never be HP competitive with a heavier suit) Give each suit ONE ewar based bonus (remove the scan range from caldari/gallente and then give it to amarr) Give each suit ONE other bonus (i.e. something to excentuate their racial profiles) This may mean altering the base stats across entire suits in order to make the suits unique. Fixing swarms
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 367	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:34:00 - [174] - Quote well....after smoking a bowl: all suits get the 5% range amplification thingy mabobber Cal +5% precision Gall +5% dampening Amar +5% Encypting Min +5% hacking Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 465	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:37:00 - [175] - Quote How about giving no suit scan range. You say you are recon - put on the modules instead of having it passive and get into situations to highlight targets. "Shine bright like a diamond"
THUNDERGROOVE The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 794	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:40:00 - [176] - Quote RedPencil wrote: -5% plate stack pen per lv 25% is nothing on what will be already small numbers. I've said it before, there is no bonus you can give the Amarr scout to make it better than Gallente. TDBS Fight heavy spam with plasma cannons!
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 634	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:42:00 - [177] - Quote i think that the min speed hacking bonus is unnecessary and needs to be a logi thing for all logi frames like before 1.8 its wrong that only one race has a faster hacking ability over all of the others. minmatar scouts also have a bonus to a weapon that is not their racial equipment, also stupid, the min scot need something like sidearm damage bonus and explosives bonus afterall the smg and flaylock are prety good guns and naturally the remote explosives are a minmatar item
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 367	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:47:00 - [178] - Quote pretty sure that getting close to the enemy and reporting their position, is recon. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5424	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:48:00 - [179] - Quote Starfire Revo wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The only way they'll make dampening less important is if they nerf the hell out of the tacnet. Meaning no more chevron wallhacks. No more showing what direction you're facing. Getting scanned is the worst thing that can happen to you. Good players know how to use and abuse the tacnet system because it is OP as hell. What would your thoughts be on these changes if they removed passive shared squad vision? Honestly after much much playing I'd rather no scout get the nova knife bonus. It's not a universally effective bonus. It's awesome but outside of pubmatches you can't knife people. Knifing skilled players is ridiculously hard even for people who run them all the time. They're unreliable (hit detection / narrow FOV) and too easily countered (back pedaling and bunny hopping counters knives and breaks hit detection). Though the bonus is fun you're still bringing a knife to a gunfight. That's just my opinion though. I love the knife bonus but the knives themselves are simply just "fun" and not practical in their current form. I'd like to see a minor tweak to myrofibrils so running one is more worth it if this was the case. Not sure what the math would work out to if Minnies got a bonus to hand to hand. ~400 ehp is about the minimum amount of a health a scout should have in my opinion. Anything less than 300 shields plus the 80 armor on a proto suit just makes it an expensive casket because you'll just get instapopped by everything otherwise. There needs to be a happy medium of both fun and practical. As for the amarr suit really that's usefulness comes down to how useful reactive and ferro's are after their tweaks. You are right about PC being a very narrow pool of players but it is the only mode we have a team deploy on. Full team modes where people are more likely to coordinate and play tactically are where they should be gathering relevant data. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 249	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:52:00 - [180] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: They should remove the squad sharing passive scans (as was the idea in the first place) I need to follow up on this internally This was removed in 1.4 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=104023&find=unread Uprising 1.4 Patch Notes wrote: HUD * Added squad leader icon for player tags * Added RDV drop off location icon for HUD * Shared passive scanner vision for squads disabled (results of active scanners are still shared with squads) * Team member chevrons now only visible when they are in line of sight. Squad chevrons remain visible and will still stick to the edge of the screen * HP bars and name tag visible only for what you are aiming/firing at * Hit indication from allied sources when friendly fire is disabled * Updated name tags displayed while in the War Barge I have not seen any post, blog, twitter feed etc that this should still be enabled, or even reactivated for scouts alone. I there are, please link it. Otherwise I consider it a bug.

Starfire Revo Inner.Hell 276	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:53:00 - [181] - Quote I decided to see what a range bonus Amarr would play like, so I tried out a range+LR build on an advanced Gal scout with no damps. Worked out pretty well. I was able to detect people as they came into my optimal range and used my mobility to stay out of their's. I could see myself running this with some form of scanner (or a squad mate with a scanner) and winning longer ranged engagements. Would be interested to see how it would play for real. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5432	Posted - 2014.05.22 20:04:00 - [182] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: They should remove the squad sharing passive scans (as was the idea in the first place) I need to follow up on this internally This was removed in 1.4 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=104023&find=unread Uprising 1.4 Patch Notes wrote: HUD * Added squad leader icon for player tags * Added RDV drop off location icon for HUD * Shared passive scanner vision for squads disabled (results of active scanners are still shared with squads) * Team member chevrons now only visible when they are in line of sight. Squad chevrons remain visible and will still stick to the edge of the screen * HP bars and name tag visible only for what you are aiming/firing at * Hit indication from allied sources when friendly fire is disabled * Updated name tags displayed while in the War Barge I have not seen any post, blog, twitter feed etc that this should still be enabled, or even reactivated for scouts alone. I there are, please link it. Otherwise I consider it a bug. Pretty sure they logged this wrong. Shared line of sight was the only thing that was nerfed in that patch not passive scans. Everyone currently shares passives, not just scouts. Scouts just have the best passive scans so they're the most noticeable. I play with logi's who e-war tank and you can see their passives just as good as a scout's. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 368	Posted - 2014.05.22 20:09:00 - [183] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: well....after smoking a bowl: all suits get the 5% range amplification thingy mabobber Cal +5% precision Gall +5% dampening Amar +5% Encrypting (ability to hack an owned objective, installation, supply depot, cru, and make it take longer for other roles to get a hack off, would need a new module introduced though.) Min +5% hacking Edit: after smoking more: Have the racial skills on gall/cal scouts (precision and dampening) apply to modules instead of base stats. Let the encrypting/hacking bonus effect the amar/min base suit stats . Passive scans are shared to your squad. Active scans are shared team-wide. and possibly lower matari base suit scan profile a bit? sneaked some changes in Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
BLOOD Ruler The Lionheart Coalition 257	Posted - 2014.05.22 20:31:00 - [184] - Quote AN amarr scout should have no penalty for armor movement and the ability to scan enemies from farther.Also keep the stamina bonus,as an amarr scout I need stamina. All eyes on me till you drop dead in your Blood mmmm yummy
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3088	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:08:00 - [185] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I think it's only a bad idea IF they choose not to pair it with the end of squad vision. Make scanners the only way to relay location to squadmates. While this will bring the caldari down to the ama/min plebs, the issue still stands that its gallente over the rest by leaps and bounds. Also these changes are going to actually increase the amount of slayer fits since ewar is now a non competitive game, more ehp buffing will be taking its place, which is a 180 from what this change is suppose to do. No doubt the gal bonus needs nerfed and most likely the base profile of scouts needs buffed. The bonuses of gal and cal should not be so incredibly strong as to warrant 2 modules worth of difference, max 1. The bonus's need to be 1 module difference, not 2, speaking of the cal and gal scout bonuses at the high end e-war. I suggest that lowering profile and nerfing the bonus's would perform this simply. Perhaps I'm just REALLY tired, but that seems to make sense to me. Here's even more tired thoughts just for fun and to get something you can flame me for: Minmatar scouts should take 2 complex damps to get under all but a cal scout with 3 complex precision or a dude using a regular focused scanner (2 complex 1 enhanced), and require 3 complex to get under a cal scout using 4 complex precision. Gal logi using focused scanners should be able to pick it up for the 5 second duration assuming you are in the radius and range. Amarr should be the same except 4 complex should get you under a gal logi using a focused. Gallente should be the same except require one less damp. Cal should be limited by their 2 low slots and thus would only be immune to all but a regular focused, gal focused, and other cal scouts. No real thoughts on balancing medium's using precisions except a 1 to 1 ratio vs other mediums. I also refrained from commenting on scouts precision outside of cal scout, which is why this may all be flawed. Who knows i'm tired. Night. I absolutely think a dude specced into gal logi for the scan bonus and using a piece of equipment that only lights you up for 5 seconds should be the end all be all at counterplay to dampening. and that it should take an arm and a leg for scouts to get under a 4 precision cal scout, and give you pause when considering if it's worth it to get under a gal logi trying to pick you up with a focused. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3088	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:12:00 - [186] - Quote BLOOD Ruler wrote: AN amarr scout should have no penalty for armor movement and the ability to scan enemies from farther.Also keep the stamina bonus,as an amarr scout I need stamina. nah if you're gonna go that way give the no armor penalty to the gallente and make amar's the damp bonus. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 370	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:15:00 - [187] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: [quote=Zatara Rought] I absolutely think a dude specced into gal logi for the scan bonus and using a piece of equipment that only lights you up for 5 seconds should be the end all be all at counterplay to dampening. and that it should take an arm and a leg for scouts to get under a 4 precision cal scout, and give you pause when considering if it's worth it to get under a gal logi trying to pick you up with a focused. true, but a gall logi, hiding in a corner with 4 scanners=20 seconds of scanning Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Ghost Kaisar The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 4849	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:19:00 - [188] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: [quote=Zatara Rought] I absolutely think a dude specced into gal logi for the scan bonus and using a piece of equipment that only lights you up for 5 seconds should be the end all be all at counterplay to dampening. and that it should take an arm and a leg for scouts to get under a 4 precision cal scout, and give you pause when considering if it's worth it to get under a gal logi trying to pick you up with a focused. true, but a gall logi, hiding in a corner with 4 scanners=20 seconds of scanning Sacrificing a gun on the field and a ton of equipment to do so. Headed to Destiny, to Hell with CCP PSN: EVL_Elgost105 RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 790	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:20:00 - [189] - Quote minmatar scout=assasin gal scout= stealth. cal scout= passive scanner. amarr scout=oh my god my eyes!!! my eyes!!!! they burn!!!!!!(quick! get that suit out of there and get this guy a doctor!) thats how ugly it is.maybe uglier.. dust 514 shall be eternal. pve for dust 514. oh look. FF somehow made dust better!.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 370	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:26:00 - [190] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: [quote=Zatara Rought] I absolutely think a dude specced into gal logi for the scan bonus and using a piece of equipment that only lights you up for 5 seconds should be the end all be all at counterplay to dampening. and that it should take an arm and a leg for scouts to get under a 4 precision cal scout, and give you pause when considering if it's worth it to get under a gal logi trying to pick you up with a focused. true, but a gall logi, hiding in a corner with 4 scanners=20 seconds of scanning Sacrificing a gun on the field and a ton of equipment to do so. reeks of failure. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3089	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:36:00 - [191] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: [quote=Zatara Rought] I absolutely think a dude specced into gal logi for the scan bonus and using a piece of equipment that only lights you up for 5 seconds should be the end all be all at counterplay to dampening. and that it should take an arm and a leg for scouts to get under a 4 precision cal scout, and give you pause when considering if it's worth it to get under a gal logi trying to pick you up with a focused. true, but a gall logi, hiding in a corner with 4 scanners=20 seconds of scanning yeah in a limited radius and range, and contributes nothing else. still has cooldown as well. and in the end the amar and gal scout would be able to get under it, at extreme cost. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1145	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:39:00 - [192] - Quote First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible. To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks. Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout. The first thing that could be changed is the gal scouts range bonus. Why do they have it? It really doesn't correlate to the role of damping. If CCP could translate this damp bonus to your squad mates in the radius it would have a purpose, but I don't think thats something CCP can implement. This would provide a pretty good counter to the caldari. Youtube
Haerr Legio DXIV 673	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:39:00 - [193] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: Haerr wrote: I've got not idea of whether or not I am a ***** **** since it got filtered, if you wouldn't mind posting it in a way that I can read it I could get back to you on that one. Have you ever seen the player with the name 'Rucking Fetard'? lol I have! Damn that actually made me laugh so I ain't even mad. I have Plasma Cannon Proficiency V**, no jk.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10878	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:47:00 - [194] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: With the proposed changes, here's what it would take to prevent being scanned by a someone with Gallente logi Lv5 using prototype scanners and what it would take for Cal scouts to scan at different dB. [Prototype active scanner]: 21 dB Amarr: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Caldari: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Gallente: 1 basic profile dampener Minmatar: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener [Lv5 Cal scout w/ 2 complex precision enhancers]: 17.85 dB Amarr: 2 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener Minmatar: 2 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener [Prototype focused active scanner] 15dB Amarr: 3 complex profile dampeners & 1 enhanced profile dampener Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 enhanced profile dampener Minmatar: Impossible [Lv5 Cal scout w/ 4 complex precision enhancers]: 14.91 dB Amarr: 4 complex profile dampeners Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 enhanced profile dampener Minmatar: Impossible Gal logis and Cal scouts specialize in scanning and low precision which counters dampening Gal scouts specialize in low profiles which counters precision I think is fine; if other scouts that don't get a bonus to dampening were able to hide from those with a role bonus to precision, by only using one low slot dampening module, it would make those with precision bonuses not that competitive. Also the other scouts have other roles too (except for Amarr). I too think its fine, go through with the changes Rattati. Not every scout needs to be perfect hiders like the Gallente, they each have their own roles. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3091	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:47:00 - [195] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible. To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks. Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout. I think between my post that would rebalance e-war and starfire's post about scout roles being reworked in addition to squad vision being scrapped we can fix the void left by the passive complex damp. But absolutely cloaks giving a passive complex dampener is dumb. Rebalance so the cloak is an equipment only. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
pseudosnipre Fatal Absolution 762	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:56:00 - [196] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: RedPencil wrote: -5% plate stack pen per lv 25% is nothing on what will be already small numbers. I've said it before, there is no bonus you can give the Amarr scout to make it better than Gallente. You lack creativity: +20% jump height and distance per level Or -40% armor plate penalty per level (thats correct, at level 3 and above plates make you FASTER) Take that bad attitude to GD with you when you go. Today is the sort of day where the sun only comes up to humiliate you. BitterVet the turkey says GOML GOML GOML
WhataguyTTU 0uter.Heaven 296	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:57:00 - [197] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The only way they'll make dampening less important is if they nerf the hell out of the tacnet. Meaning no more chevron wallhacks. No more showing what direction you're facing. Getting scanned is the worst thing that can happen to you. Good players know how to use and abuse the tacnet system because it is OP as hell. Getting scanned is a death sentence. I agree it is unnecessary to have the power of seeing enemy direction and through walls. I'd be happy with it just being a red dot as it was before, but CCP "can't" prevent seeing chevrons through walls (atleast I dont think they can). I believe this is something that scanners should be capable of. Dropping scan radius is definitely a great idea as well and range amps mods would be further used, but this doesn't stop it from being used as a slayer still. However all scouts should have potential to not be scanned. I'm trying to see scouts getting fixed while bringing assault suits back into the game. It all comes down to 2 factors why people pick scouts other than assualt, speed and eHP. (equipment is negligible as scouts always pack a cloak nowadays). Gallente scouts still have it too easy to become invisible with Alpha hotfix currently. Can still tank close to 700eHP at the loss of a kin cat, now the real test is to see how bad the armor changes will weigh scouts down. Untill then, you can't really know how effective brick tanking will be. From how effective scans and passives are against anything not a scout, I feel like the idea of plates/extenders increasing profile is a most excellent idea. It will keep scouts from tanking too much eHP at the risk of becoming a tac-net target. (I haven't calculated numbers) Regardless it would give people a reason to move away from scout if it was very tough to achieve over 350-400eHP while being invisible. Amaar scouts still need some love and added scan profile with plates/extenders doesn't help them. Amaar still needs racial abilities reworked, I personally would like them to be the brick tank of scouts, so something along the lines of how they don't get slowed by plates/extenders and have increase bonus from them. Also long as there is a hacking bonus on Min, it is still a nice asset to bring along to PCs. However, it's almost better currently to run a Gal scout with damps and code breakers to speed hack points (This should not a better way). It would be nice for teams to be afraid of a min scout going anywhere next to a point, that said, they should have an increase in hack speed bonus. This still gives them a chance to become some what invisible with double damps. Well work is about to get out and its time to go home. Please other feedback posters **** on my ideas so I can better see the holes in my logic.
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 104	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:59:00 - [198] - Quote As Moody says, avoiding scans is essential to being a scout. There is no point playing as a scout if you are scanned. Lets consider Minmatar scouts. In order to avoid Caldari scouts with 1 precision mod, scouts with 2 precision mods and Gallente logis using a proto scanner (not a focused one), you will need two profile dampeners. By the way, whilst scanner cooldowns and scanning area was nerfed in 1.8, precision was not. In fact with the Gallente logi bonus, precision was significantly buffed. A Gallente logi can scan you with a flux scanner with a 90 degree arc at 200m and then scan you with a quantum scanner, flagging you for a significant proportion of their cooldown. In 1.7 you needed 1 dampener to avoid proto scans. The lack of 360 spin scans and longer cooldowns does mean being scanned is a bit less likely than in 1.7 if you don't damp. So either you live with being scanned, or you double damp. At least you probably won't be perma scanned, but I think it would be a significant obstacle to scouting. In a competitive environment, a proto min scout would then have 1 free low slot. If you go with your bonus and try to speed hack you will need a codebreaker. I struggle to do this well with 2 codebreakers, so I think it would be difficult with 1, but probably not impossible. If you choose to go for standard scouting tactics, i.e., flanking, non-speed hacking, equipment destruction and assassination, you will have only 1 free low slot. Without a range amplifier your passive scan range will be less than an unmodded Cal or Gal scout. Without a Kinetic Catalyser it is difficult to capitalize on your suit's speed advantage. The way things are at the moment, Caldari and Gallente scouts are superior to Minmatar. Nova knives are fun but not a serious, competitive weapon. Speed hacking is useful in PC but is a very difficult play-style. Much harder than you might imagine, though it is fun, in a masochistic way. The change to cloak dampening will buff Gallente scouts as it means there are more scans that they can avoid that other scouts can't. It also helps Caldari scouts as it will be easier for them to scan things. Minmatar scouts will be further marginalized. Possible solutions for min scouts (do all this together): Hope that Gallente logi scanning won't be a massive problem, live with being scanned by other scouts, fit precision mods to counter other scouts, give up on dampening. OR Increase the effectiveness of dampening mods Change Gallente and Caldari bonuses so they require fitting the respective modules to get the bonus. Normalise all scout's passive scan range. I see no reason why Gal and Cal scouts get longer scan ranges than the others. Buff nova knife damage by 25% and remove the Min bonus, it is stupid. I don't know about Amarr scouts so I haven't commented. Though I think adding a bonus to cloak duration would be a good idea.
BLOOD Ruler The Lionheart Coalition 261	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:59:00 - [199] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: BLOOD Ruler wrote: AN amarr scout should have no penalty for armor movement and the ability to scan enemies from farther.Also keep the stamina bonus,as an amarr scout I need stamina. nah if you're gonna go that way give the no armor penalty to the gallente and make amar's the damp bonus. I am ok with that,but keep the stamina bonus. All eyes on me till you drop dead in your Blood mmmm yummy
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 641	Posted - 2014.05.22 22:11:00 - [200] - Quote So far, the biggest real fear I see from scouts losing the Cloak Dampening bonus is due to the range and precision of the Cal Scout. I don't count anyone talking about the Gal Logi because it's a none factor now. Complain if they unnerf scanners. That fear of the Cal Scout is real because the suit is already OP vs cloaked scouts, or at least a true balance. I know because I run it, and I run it because it's the ONLY scout counter. It's funny watching scouts stand still thinking I can't see them when they have a big red arrow over their head. Removing the dampening bonus is a good thing, but it's true that it will only make the Cal scout better. I'll probably be able to drop 1, maybe 2 enhancers and add some shields! My suggestion. Remove the Passive Shared Scan. If you want to share recon data with your squad, get an Active Scanner and paint the dots you see. This should calm all the fear each of you scouts have about losing the extra free complex non-stacking-penalty dampener you've been enjoying. Remove the Range bonus from Cal and Gal and give it to Amarr. Amarr needs a better bonus, and range makes since for them. On a personal note, the main reason I want to see this Dampener remove is one reason and one reason only. Firing SG while cloaked. A medium frame cannot passively scan a lvl 5 cloaked scout currently, no matter what the skill or how many precision enhancers. Firing a OHK weapon from cloak gives you no time to react. If they had to decloak before firing, even if it was only a .5 second delay, I would have time to react and I would see them because a Medium farme with full skills CAN passively scan an uncloaked lvl 5 scout. I got killed one to many times while hacking an objective in my MinLogi suit that is meant for hacking before I switched to full on Cal Scout for the sole purpose of hunting and killing cloaked scouts. It's sad when I have 5 suits at proto, consider myself a Logi first, but run Cal Scout 99% of the time to counter this ****. I feel for you scouts that I see running by me that get waisted in a few SCR shots, but blame your Cloaked SG Scouts for making me the monster I am. YouTube

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2119	Posted - 2014.05.22 22:11:00 - [201] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Remind me again what the Gal logistics bonus is for, if not for scanning scouts down? ^This In the present state of things a max proto Gal Logi running a Proto Active scanner cannot pick up many scouts (I say "many" because I've found no way to test all of the fits that work or don't in this context but when running logi scans frequently fail to pick up even uncloaked scouts which I can see with the naked eye. This effect is so common in fact that aside from testing and the very occasional depot swap I've given up on running my Gal fit/active scanners due to their negligible effect). When balancing profile and scans Active scans should always be more effective at picking things up than Passive scans since active require unlocking gear in a skill which gives no bonus other than use of that gear and further because Active scans are not 360 degrees nor perpetual. I don't know if it qualifies as a change to a single stat or not but making Active scans the only shared scan on TacNet would go a long way to keeping the Cal passives viable without a nerf while making Actives capable of having a role and allowing some latitude to retool the overall levels of damp scouts possess while not simply lighting them all up on NacNet. Scouts need to be able to be stealthy and not broadcast to the whole team, but they shouldn't be guaranteed to be unscanable or require "eyes only" detection as that distorts the meta. Currently in most PC battles there's very little medium frame presence and the question of scans/profile et al is at the heart of why (it even has some effect pushing vehicle use still further to the fore as it's harder for an unseen scout to OHK a HAV than a dropsuit) 0.02 ISK Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3093	Posted - 2014.05.22 22:14:00 - [202] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The-Errorist wrote: With the proposed changes, here's what it would take to prevent being scanned by a someone with Gallente logi Lv5 using prototype scanners and what it would take for Cal scouts to scan at different dB. [Prototype active scanner]: 21 dB Amarr: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Caldari: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Gallente: 1 basic profile dampener Minmatar: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener [Lv5 Cal scout w/ 2 complex precision enhancers]: 17.85 dB Amarr: 2 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener Minmatar: 2 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener [Prototype focused active scanner] 15dB Amarr: 3 complex profile dampeners & 1 enhanced profile dampener Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 enhanced profile dampener Minmatar: Impossible [Lv5 Cal scout w/ 4 complex precision enhancers]: 14.91 dB Amarr: 4 complex profile dampeners Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 enhanced profile dampener Minmatar: Impossible Gal logis and Cal scouts specialize in scanning and low precision which counters dampening Gal scouts specialize in low profiles which counters precision I think is fine; if other scouts that don't get a bonus to dampening were able to hide from those with a role bonus to precision, by only using one low slot dampening module, it would make those with precision bonuses not that competitive. Also the other scouts have other roles too (except for Amarr). I too think its fine, go through with the changes Rattati. Not every scout needs to be perfect hiders like the Gallente, they each have their own roles. the problem with this thought is that after this change everyone should just run gal scout, why run a hack fit min scout when you'll get picked up before you CAN hack? why run a cal when the gal will scan for the same range with a bit less precision but who cares the cal scout will get detected where the gal is invisible and wouldn't pick up the gal scouts everyone swapped to anyway to counter the cal. This is the logical step. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13646	Posted - 2014.05.22 22:16:00 - [203] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: the problem with this thought is that after this change everyone should just run gal scout, why run a hack fit min scout when you'll get picked up before you CAN hack? why run a cal when the gal will scan for the same range with a bit less precision but who cares the cal scout will get detected where the gal is invisible and wouldn't pick up the gal scouts everyone swapped to anyway to counter the cal. This is the logical step. The only way you're getting picked up though is if someone is using a precision stacked Calscout. I find it interesting how that's apparently a given in all of these theoretical scenarios. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1170	Posted - 2014.05.22 22:21:00 - [204] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: To follow up, what would I do? Change HP modules to percentage based with stacking penalties. (this means you can put more HP on a scout, but you will never be HP competitive with a heavier suit) Give each suit ONE ewar based bonus (remove the scan range from caldari/gallente and then give it to amarr) Give each suit ONE other bonus (i.e. something to excentuate their racial profiles) This may mean altering the base stats across entire suits in order to make the suits unique. (as has been shown before, the stamina/regen bonus to the amarr scout suit is completely pointless witht he way regen and speed interact) If you're going to change HP modules to % based, it should only be to plate armor. Have done the maths previously. % based for everything will destroy medium suits. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2169782#post2169782 Changing plate to % reduces their usefulness to scouts, and leaving fero/reactive as a straight number makes them viable. Knowledge is power
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2119	Posted - 2014.05.22 22:24:00 - [205] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: the problem with this thought is that after this change everyone should just run gal scout, why run a hack fit min scout when you'll get picked up before you CAN hack? why run a cal when the gal will scan for the same range with a bit less precision but who cares the cal scout will get detected where the gal is invisible and wouldn't pick up the gal scouts everyone swapped to anyway to counter the cal. This is the logical step. The only way you're getting picked up though is if someone is using a precision stacked Calscout. I find it interesting how that's apparently a given in all of these theoretical scenarios. Agreed, interesting and in my view very flawed. The passive scans of a Cal scout should not be the final word in scanning, at least when it comes to what show up on TacNet for squad/team mates. I use the general guideline "when X is the only counter to X" then there's a problem. When the stealth of scouts can only be countered by the scanning of scouts, then there's a problem and the meta will remain distorted. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ same can be said for the elimination of an ADS or HAV, if things are at a point where the only or frankly even most, viable way to deal with a specific fit is to run that fit then balance needs a polish but this comment is only for illustrative purposes here please no one use it as a way to drag this thread off-topic. Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3094	Posted - 2014.05.22 22:28:00 - [206] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: the problem with this thought is that after this change everyone should just run gal scout, why run a hack fit min scout when you'll get picked up before you CAN hack? why run a cal when the gal will scan for the same range with a bit less precision but who cares the cal scout will get detected where the gal is invisible and wouldn't pick up the gal scouts everyone swapped to anyway to counter the cal. This is the logical step. The only way you're getting picked up though is if someone is using a precision stacked Calscout. I find it interesting how that's apparently a given in all of these theoretical scenarios. Welcome to PC. Why risk playing on a suit when you know the enemy will have a cal scout anyway. You can anticipate and adapt, or find yourself being mowed down by heavies stacking kin kats rushing you, seemingly aware of your every move. This isn't a hypothetical. This is current PC meta. Each side brings cal scouts just to keep the enemy team honest and gal scouts do everything. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 641	Posted - 2014.05.22 22:36:00 - [207] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: the problem with this thought is that after this change everyone should just run gal scout, why run a hack fit min scout when you'll get picked up before you CAN hack? why run a cal when the gal will scan for the same range with a bit less precision but who cares the cal scout will get detected where the gal is invisible and wouldn't pick up the gal scouts everyone swapped to anyway to counter the cal. This is the logical step. The only way you're getting picked up though is if someone is using a precision stacked Calscout. I find it interesting how that's apparently a given in all of these theoretical scenarios. It may be theoritacal, but if I'm in the game it's inevitable, and every day there are more and more of me as players realize how nice it is once every few games to say "whoh, that scout got under my passive." I don't really like running the Cal Scout. I have to run it because I don't do FOTM, I counter it. YouTube
Tallen Ellecon 1972	Posted - 2014.05.22 23:12:00 - [208] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus No, boost active scanner duration, they're almost useless against scouts. Blehh..
dwater 59	Posted - 2014.05.22 23:20:00 - [209] - Quote Tallen Ellecon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus No, boost active scanner duration, they're almost useless against scouts. WTF, are you stupid? Boosting active scan duration fixes nothing, most especially gal scouts being broken
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 371	Posted - 2014.05.22 23:58:00 - [210] - Quote dwater wrote: Tallen Ellecon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus No, boost active scanner duration, they're almost useless against scouts. WTF, are you stupid? Boosting active scan duration fixes nothing, most especially gal scouts being broken gall scouts aren't broken, armor plates and min/amar scouts are. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.

Oswald Rehnquist 1417	Posted - 2014.05.23 00:06:00 - [211] - Quote Just to throw it out there one last time for CCP, to keep it simple You can't balance the gal dampening with the cal precision without the waves of opportunity provided by the cloak for the use of the other two scouts. The cloak dampening effect was thy only thing that allowed cal scouts to have their current racial. I'll tell you right now, its not possible to balance this without nullifying one or more variants of the scout. By changing the cal racial to a non precision bonus, these will happen 1) Two scouts automatically become more viable, no longer needing to dampen so hard (since alpha is taking away their defense). Since they are not auto detected they can focus on their specialization (mins hacking, amars fitting) 2) The gal scouts utility drops since auto detection is not so prevalent, why have a high damp when the only thing that can possible catch you is a gal logi? It still has the range bonus, that can be debated if you want, but the result is that the gallente falls down with the other 2 scouts. 3) Last but not least, the cal scout utility is free to still make it relevant and on par with the scouts, what that could be is probably what my last response to this thread will be. After that point, its up to the powers that be to make a smart decision. I will also say that the removal/reduction of dampening on cloaks gives you guys more work, but if this is happening then the cal precision has to go, and I don't say this with joy either, its just what is required for balancing given this direction and limited resources. Below 28 dB
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1173	Posted - 2014.05.23 00:27:00 - [212] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Just to throw it out there one last time for CCP, to keep it simple You can't balance the gal dampening with the cal precision without the waves of opportunity provided by the cloak for the use of the other two scouts. The cloak dampening effect was thy only thing that allowed cal scouts to have their current racial. I'll tell you right now, its not possible to balance this without nullifying one or more variants of the scout. By changing the cal racial to a non precision bonus, these will happen 1) Two scouts automatically become more viable, no longer needing to dampen so hard (since alpha is taking away their defense). Since they are not auto detected they can focus on their specialization (mins hacking, amars fitting) 2) The gal scouts utility drops since auto detection is not so prevalent, why have a high damp when the only thing that can possible catch you is a gal logi? It still has the range bonus, that can be debated if you want, but the result is that the gallente falls down with the other 2 scouts. 3) Last but not least, the cal scout utility is free to still make it relevant and on par with the scouts, also its changing one sinlge variable rather than another roll of the dice with a lot of changes in racial bonuses. What the cal scout racial could be is probably what my last response to this thread will be. After that point, its up to the powers that be to make a smart decision. I will also say that the removal/reduction of dampening on cloaks gives you guys more work, but if this is happening then the cal precision has to go, and I don't say this with joy either, its just what is required for balancing given this direction and limited resources. Really good post. I only have one point of difference. Removing the need to the Gal to fit any dampening by reducing the effectiveness of the Cal leads to more plate stacking. So the Gal remains the prime scout, purely because it's bonuses are better than the Amarr, while both have the best slot layout in the current meta. That said, still seems like the best option I've seen so far. Knowledge is power
JP Acuna Pendejitos Zero-Day 165	Posted - 2014.05.23 00:34:00 - [213] - Quote I have an idea, please read: What if we changed both Gallente and Caldari bonuses to this: -Gallente: additional 5% to the first profile dampener's efficacy per level (example: a lvl5 Gallente scout with 1 basic profile dampener would get 40% profile reduction instead of 15%... It is THE SAME as now, but this way a Gallente scout would only get his bonus as long as he fits a dampener. Brick tanking FIXED). This must only apply to the first module though for obvious reasons. -Caldari: +5% to the first precision enhancer's efficacy per level. Same as above. This one seems needed to me in order to be balanced with the Gal bonus. Both keep their current bonus to scan radius per level.
Oswald Rehnquist 1418	Posted - 2014.05.23 00:36:00 - [214] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Really good post. I only have one point of difference. Removing the need to the Gal to fit any dampening by reducing the effectiveness of the Cal leads to more plate stacking. So the Gal remains the prime scout, purely because it's bonuses are better than the Amarr, while both have the best slot layout in the current meta. That said, still seems like the best option I've seen so far. This is absolutely true, I am aware of it and it is thy biggest weakness in the set up. Essentially its error towards keeping most of the smart set that that has already been established which slightly favors the gallente scout which is better than an absolute dominance by a single scout. I'll still be looking in this thread for superior ideas to mine, which are desperately needed. Below 28 dB
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 392	Posted - 2014.05.23 00:40:00 - [215] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: shaman oga wrote: Eliminate caldari and gallente scan range bonus. This would alleviate the problem a fair bit. Please elaborate Others have made the point better than me, but a large part of the precision-vs-damps problem is spillover onto AK and MK due to ultra damped gal scouts vs ultra-scan cal scouts, leaving them as second-class citizens. Eliminating the range bonus on gal/cal scouts reduces the range at which the other two scouts get caught in the crossfire, or at the least forcing them to devote yet more slots to get the current functionality. A problem with removing the cal scouts range is that it would strongly reduce the benefit of the the cal scouts precision bonus. The power of one bonus is very tightly coupled to the other. I'm not saying don't touch it, just be aware that if one is removed the other becomes much less powerful.
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2543	Posted - 2014.05.23 00:42:00 - [216] - Quote As long as being undetected is the realm of just the Gallente Scout, it is what the meta is going to push towards. Being electronically unseen is the greatest personal tactical advantage. If there is some Gal Logi with scanner or Cal Scout with low dB precision and they are next to someone they enhance the people around them by giving them a tactical advantage. If there is with a dampened suit with someone next to them that is un-dampened, they lose that tactical advantage because now the other team is putting its attention to where you are. It's a repeat of what happened before. As people accumulate SP and comprehension of the game they become aware of the target number in which they need to get below in order to play the game. nearly all the medium suits started gearing towards 2 complex profile dampeners because that was what you needed to stop the scan-spam. Nothing has changed except the need for Gallente Scout because it's now the only viable option to dampen with. Wallhacks are the norm. Fighting to remove Cloak Field dampening bonus and fighting to keep Active Scanners and Caldari Scouts' Scanning prowess is fine and all, but realize that you are taking away one of few actual tactical aspects of the game. Information on where the enemy is being taken as a right that all players should get to know. These suggestions only push the game into becoming HP/DPS focus because it is a given that you are always detected. It only pushes it further in further towards Scouts and Sentinels, which is already the theme (of a good team). Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1147	Posted - 2014.05.23 01:17:00 - [217] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible. To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks. Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout. I think between my post that would rebalance e-war and starfire's post about scout roles being reworked in addition to squad vision being scrapped we can fix the void left by the passive complex damp. But absolutely cloaks giving a passive complex dampener is dumb. Rebalance so the cloak is an equipment only. Completely reworking the scout bonuses would likely incur a respec. Not something I think we need right now (not to mention would ruin the metrics they are likely trying to run with balance). Without respec you step on the toes of all the people who put SP into a role they wanted to play. If cloak provides no damp bonus most scouts who run them won't use them (lets be real honest, cloaks are only fitted for their damp bonus or to abuse the delay problems)....making the role bonus for scouts useless. Youtube
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3096	Posted - 2014.05.23 01:53:00 - [218] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: As long as being undetected is the realm of just the Gallente Scout, it is what the meta is going to push towards. Being electronically unseen is the greatest personal tactical advantage. If there is some Gal Logi with scanner or Cal Scout with low dB precision and they are next to someone they enhance the people around them by giving them a tactical advantage. If there is with a dampened suit with someone next to them that is un-dampened, they lose that tactical advantage because now the other team is putting its attention to where you are. It's a repeat of what happened before. As people accumulate SP and comprehension of the game they become aware of the target number in which they need to get below in order to play the game. nearly all the medium suits started gearing towards 2 complex profile dampeners because that was what you needed to stop the scan-spam. Nothing has changed except the need for Gallente Scout because it's now the only viable option to dampen with. Wallhacks are the norm. Fighting to remove Cloak Field dampening bonus and fighting to keep Active Scanners and Caldari Scouts' Scanning prowess is fine and all, but realize that you are taking away one of few actual tactical aspects of the game. Information on where the enemy is being taken as a right that all players should get to know. These suggestions only push the game into becoming HP/DPS focus because it is a given that you are always detected. It only pushes it further in further towards Scouts and Sentinels, which is already the theme (of a good team). 1.) It's not only in the realm of the Gal scout. It's just stupid easy. 2.) If they take off squad shared vision from passive scans then active scanners occupy a place on the battlefield, without them passive regin surpreme. 3.) In PC, when 2 damps got you below all but focused, people ran it DESPITE being able to be focused scanned. You make an excellent point but for the other side of the argument. They were unscannable by everything except focused, and it was fine. Gal scouts could get under focused, but at great cost. The amarr can do today what the gal could do then, no one does because the cloak bonus and the gal bonus amounts to a gal needing only need 1 enhanced with the broken cloak to get under everything. Everyone agrees we should rework cal scout bonus and make active scanners viable. 5 seconds does not a wallhack make. And if you want to get under the end all be all of scanning (which the ACTIVE scanner gal logi focused should be, NOT cal scout + 4 precision) then spec amarr or gal and sacrifice to do it. Equips giving module bonuses is dumb and should never have been done in the first place. Sadly CCP let the idea take grip that this is OK and so people want to balance with it. So we need to dislodge that idea and let it die. Balance it another way, not through a passive module on a piece of equipment. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3124	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:00:00 - [219] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Completely reworking the scout bonuses would likely incur a respec. Not something I think we need right now (not to mention would ruin the metrics they are likely trying to run with balance). Without respec you step on the toes of all the people who put SP into a role they wanted to play. If cloak provides no damp bonus most scouts who run them won't use them (lets be real honest, cloaks are only fitted for their damp bonus or to abuse the delay problems)....making the role bonus for scouts useless. I can see SOME merit to removing shared passive scans, but that won't change anything in the long run. It will only force those in the cal scout position to better communicate. 1.) If a respec is needed do it. I personally don't think it'll need a respec (see the cal assault and cal logi bonus being changed). 2.) Cloaks being fitted only for damp bonus and and abuse of delay? Perhaps, but people will learn to use the cloak as a cloak not an equipment piece that affords you a complex module in the process. 3.) Getting rid of passive shared vision will absolutely change a ton of things in the long run. Trying to describe an enemy location is vastly different than your team mates seeing a red dot. Completely disagree with this one. The meta evolution from when we didn't have active scanners to shortly after when we did was HUGE. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2547	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:22:00 - [220] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: 5 seconds does not a wallhack make. And if you want to get under the end all be all of scanning (which the ACTIVE scanner gal logi focused should be, NOT cal scout + 4 precision) then spec amarr or gal and sacrifice to do it. Do you even remember 1.7? You had 2-3 people running the modules whenever you saw known scouts in play, 4 complex precision dampeners wasn't a drastic sacrifice, it was impossible to achieve. Weapons were 9-15% stronger with even more damage coming from damage mods. That was never viable to even bother trying to overcome and as soon as it was know someone was using a focused scouts were abandoned. You're just going to reintroduce the scanner spam if there is still one way to overcome dampening. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia

Tesfa Alem ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 127	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:24:00 - [221] - Quote Sorry but why nerf the gallente scout at all? Why not fix the ewar modules, so that medium suits who scarifices HPwhile remaining highly visible should be able to pick up scouts? Plus the problem isnt that scouts are invisible to ewar but that they are able to shoot while cloaked. Leave the gallente suit alone.Put a delay timer on decloaking so that you cannot fire a weapon until you are fully visible. Improve the ewar so that a medium suit so that equiping complex ewar modules have a fighting chance to pick up an uncloaked ADV scout. You should worry more about the amarr suit. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3161	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:38:00 - [222] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: 5 seconds does not a wallhack make. And if you want to get under the end all be all of scanning (which the ACTIVE scanner gal logi focused should be, NOT cal scout + 4 precision) then spec amarr or gal and sacrifice to do it. Do you even remember 1.7? You had 2-3 people running the modules whenever you saw known scouts in play, 4 complex precision dampeners wasn't a drastic sacrifice, it was impossible to achieve. Weapons were 9-15% stronger with even more damage coming from damage mods. That was never viable to even bother trying to overcome and as soon as it was know someone was using a focused scouts were abandoned. You're just going to reintroduce the scanner spam if there is still one way to overcome dampening. running what modules to do what? Running double damps to get under all but focused? Yes! Was awesome. And when I got focus scanned I didn't cry. Should have taken me more modules as I was a logi. 4 complex precision dampeners? Gonna need to clarify. But yeah, plenty of shotgun scouts ran around in PC matches without a single plate and still did work. Plenty of people ran quad damps when the situation called for it, or they chose to. As soon as focused was used scouts were definitely not abandoned, rofl. Much as i didn't abandon my double damps when i got focused scanned. That's simply untrue. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5458	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:41:00 - [223] - Quote Speaking of scanners. They should set a turn cap because I still see people 360 scanning. I see that k2dert or whatever his name is doing these insanely fast 360 spins when he scans. Kind of ridiculous. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3161	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:48:00 - [224] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Speaking of scanners. They should set a turn cap because I still see people 360 scanning. I see that k2dert or whatever his name is doing these insanely fast 360 spins when he scans. Kind of ridiculous. Indeed. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 772	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:51:00 - [225] - Quote There are a lot of you who are complaining about the removal of the cloak dampening bonus. Concerns over having to use profile dampeners and getting picked up by Caldari scouts or Gallente logistics. The whole point of removing the cloak profile bonus is to force you to choose what you want to be good at. If you still want to be stealthy, you can do that, but now you have to use up slots. If you want to brick tank, you can still do that, but you'll be easier to find. You can't have it all because balance. But you'll be picked up by Caldari scouts and Gallente logistics you say. To this I reply balance again. These are counters to stealth. If they invested more and sacrificed more in fitting than you to find you, then tough, they're going to find you. Edit: Sorry wrong thread... No, this isn't awkward at all... Medium frame EHP is not medium
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1084	Posted - 2014.05.23 03:09:00 - [226] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: To follow up, what would I do? Change HP modules to percentage based with stacking penalties. (this means you can put more HP on a scout, but you will never be HP competitive with a heavier suit) Give each suit ONE ewar based bonus (remove the scan range from caldari/gallente and then give it to amarr) Give each suit ONE other bonus (i.e. something to excentuate their racial profiles) This may mean altering the base stats across entire suits in order to make the suits unique. (as has been shown before, the stamina/regen bonus to the amarr scout suit is completely pointless witht he way regen and speed interact) If you're going to change HP modules to % based, it should only be to plate armor. Have done the maths previously. % based for everything will destroy medium suits. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2169782#post2169782 Changing plate to % reduces their usefulness to scouts, and leaving fero/reactive as a straight number makes them viable. Your math is full of assumptions and shortcuts. Explain why 20%? Explain why no stacking penalties? Would the non-stacking penalized modules multiply in a compounding way or be lumped together? Every other module in Dust suffers from decreasing return on investment, why should HP mods be any bit different? Even the speed penalties for the armor plates are percentage based!! The way it is now, the plates add a dispropotionatly large amount of HP (as a percentage gain) to smaller suits, allowing them to have all of the advatanges of the light suit but to circumvent the drawbacks (wet paper towels for HP). This flies in the face of any balancing attempts, and it also makes the base HP stat much less important (part of the reason why medium suits are so entirely compromised right now). All of that aside (including the maths, I can just throw more figures at you as well.) Is something that you have overlooked. Every other module in the entire game. Due to the percentage based modules, no other suit is really going to be even close to a scout in the scouts roles (scan radius, profile, precision, speed, stamina, stamina regen, shield recharge, and hitbox size). Sure a medium suit might be able to come close to the scout in ONE area, but not the other 7. The scout can become compettive with medium suits by fitting HP mods, while retaining ALL of those advantages above. This is the problem we must address. Scouts are already kings of 7 different base stats in a game largely dictated by percentile gains. The only base stat that it is truely lacking is easily made up for by module in which the scout (relatively) gains the most from. No, as long as the rest of the modules in the game only allow suits to be competitive (stat wise) with suits from their same class, HP should absolutely be no different. Fixing swarms
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 211	Posted - 2014.05.23 03:55:00 - [227] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the only viable (PC) meta? Go! Remove passive armour repair. Duct tape 2.0 > Have WD-40; will travel.
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1178	Posted - 2014.05.23 04:18:00 - [228] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Brokerib wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: To follow up, what would I do? Change HP modules to percentage based with stacking penalties. (this means you can put more HP on a scout, but you will never be HP competitive with a heavier suit) Give each suit ONE ewar based bonus (remove the scan range from caldari/gallente and then give it to amarr) Give each suit ONE other bonus (i.e. something to excentuate their racial profiles) This may mean altering the base stats across entire suits in order to make the suits unique. (as has been shown before, the stamina/regen bonus to the amarr scout suit is completely pointless witht he way regen and speed interact) If you're going to change HP modules to % based, it should only be to plate armor. Have done the maths previously. % based for everything will destroy medium suits. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2169782#post2169782 Changing plate to % reduces their usefulness to scouts, and leaving fero/reactive as a straight number makes them viable. Your math is full of assumptions and shortcuts. Explain why 20%? Explain why no stacking penalties? Would the non-stacking penalized modules multiply in a compounding way or be lumped together? Every other module in Dust suffers from decreasing return on investment, why should HP mods be any bit different? Even the speed penalties for the armor plates are percentage based!! The way it is now, the plates add a dispropotionatly large amount of HP (as a percentage gain) to smaller suits, allowing them to have all of the advatanges of the light suit but to circumvent the drawbacks (wet paper towels for HP). This flies in the face of any balancing attempts, and it also makes the base HP stat much less important (part of the reason why medium suits are so entirely compromised right now). All of that aside (including the maths, I can just throw more figures at you as well.) Is something that you have overlooked. Every other module in the entire game. Due to the percentage based modules, no other suit is really going to be even close to a scout in the scouts roles (scan radius, profile, precision, speed, stamina, stamina regen, shield recharge, and hitbox size). Sure a medium suit might be able to come close to the scout in ONE area, but not the other 7. The scout can become compettive with medium suits by fitting HP mods, while retaining ALL of those advantages above. This is the problem we must address. Scouts are already kings of 7 different base stats in a game largely dictated by percentile gains. The only base stat that it is truely lacking is easily made up for by module in which the scout (relatively) gains the most from. No, as long as the rest of the modules in the game only allow suits to be competitive (stat wise) with suits from their same class, HP should absolutely be no different. Correct, the maths is full of assumptions and shortcuts. The original example was put together as a hypothetical only and was intended to be indicitive, to answer a comment in the Barbershop about making all HP modules % based. The 20% was arbritary and used to model in a way that mimics the current end total HP of a Gal heavy, and HP were applied without stacking penalty and against base HP only to simplify the calculations. I am in no way suggesting that this is the correct % or implementation. The intent of my post (as opposed to the execution), was to demonstrate that while % based increase would stop scouts from being able to brick tank, it also removes the ability for scouts to tank in any reasonable way. Assault scouts are a valid playstyle, and removing a valid playstyle due to issues with the current implementation of modules is a poor choice at best. Making all HP modules % based would make them unusable for light suits, particularly for ferro and reactive plates. If we were to go down the path of % HP modules, it would be a better choice to make a % based module for high base HP suits, with static modules to alow scouts limited, but useful, HP gain. This would have the additional benefit of pushing scouts towards using ferro/reactive plate, thus increasing fitting options while maintaining the playstyle option. Coupled with this, the current medium base HP totals would mean that they would be similarly affected by the change, nerfing an already underperforming class. Your argument that all other modules are % based is invalid, as it's based on the falicy that all modules should work by the same mechanism. There's no reasoning behind that, just an assumption. Weapons aren't % based, and HP modules should be balanced around incoming damage and not other modules. Your suggestion is only workable if every suit and every HP module is re-worked, which is unlikely in the current environment. Knowledge is power
Balamob Sver true blood Dirt Nap Squad. 30	Posted - 2014.05.23 04:28:00 - [229] - Quote After reading a lotof post, i came up with the fact that if u want all scout to be competitive, all need a dampener bonus. So all with 25% dampening bonus which seems logical cus the role ask 4 it or even better, keep the profile reduction bonus on cloaks and remove the gal dampening from it for something else. Conclusion, the scouts need that prifile reduction to fulfill their role (more importantly vs active scanners), but this profile reduction should be equal between all scouts. Being a Templar is a vow for life.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1442	Posted - 2014.05.23 04:47:00 - [230] - Quote Either: A) Reduce all the scouts PG (except the minmatar which is boned by its low CPU/PG currently) or B) remove a low slot from the Gal scout which would make fully dampening a major blow to the scouts tank. Fun > Realism

XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws Proficiency V. 1359	Posted - 2014.05.23 04:49:00 - [231] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus This would be very detrimental to gamepley. The viability of the gallente scout doesnt come from the ability to remain unseen; it's the tanking ability that makes it meta worthy. The only scout that can counter a caldari is gallente and vice versa but; with the proposed change to cloaks, this will no longer be the case. The minny and amarr , with the right modules, will be able to pick up the gallente scout once the cloak bonus is done away with. The problem with gallente and most other scouts is the equipment slots. They have two equipment slots in which they choose cloak and something else which is, IMHO, not right. All scouts should only have 1 equipment slot and choose if they want to use RE or cloaks.... Summary The problem with gallente scout is bricktanking and having the cloak on. It has nothing to do with the bonus which will be very necessary once the you eliminate the cloaks dampening effect. This will make it so that no scout is safe from caldari scouts no matter their skill level. Rethink this... Bricktanking is the problem not the dampening bonus. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1179	Posted - 2014.05.23 05:31:00 - [232] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus This would be very detrimental to gamepley. The viability of the gallente scout doesnt come from the ability to remain unseen; it's the tanking ability that makes it meta worthy. The only scout that can counter a caldari is gallente and vice versa but; with the proposed change to cloaks, this will no longer be the case. The minny and amarr , with the right modules, will be able to pick up the gallente scout once the cloak bonus is done away with. The problem with gallente and most other scouts is the equipment slots. They have two equipment slots in which they choose cloak and something else which is, IMHO, not right. All scouts should only have 1 equipment slot and choose if they want to use RE or cloaks.... Summary The problem with gallente scout is bricktanking and having the cloak on. It has nothing to do with the bonus which will be very necessary once the you eliminate the cloaks dampening effect. This will make it so that no scout is safe from caldari scouts no matter their skill level. Rethink this... Bricktanking is the problem not the dampening bonus. Agree that bricktanking is the problem. But bricktanking isn't a scout problem, it's a module problem. If it's just about bricktanking, then adjust the modules, and leave the cloak and scouts as they are. Knowledge is power
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 376	Posted - 2014.05.23 05:38:00 - [233] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Speaking of scanners. They should set a turn cap because I still see people 360 scanning. I see that k2dert or whatever his name is doing these insanely fast 360 spins when he scans. Kind of ridiculous. agreed, you can still kind of abuse the spin scans, but not as easily as before. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13660	Posted - 2014.05.23 05:57:00 - [234] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The only way you're getting picked up though is if someone is using a precision stacked Calscout. I find it interesting how that's apparently a given in all of these theoretical scenarios. Welcome to PC. Why risk playing on a suit when you know the enemy will have a cal scout anyway. You can anticipate and adapt, or find yourself being mowed down by heavies stacking kin kats rushing you, seemingly aware of your every move. This isn't a hypothetical. This is current PC meta. Each side brings cal scouts just to keep the enemy team honest and gal scouts do everything. The next logical meta evolution is the same evolution that happened when logi's started stacking damps. it's beginning to be where scouts are simply used to achieve the logi's job in all things BUT repping. Yeah, sure, that's the current meta. But how has the meta developed? It's because those Calscouts that can scan everything exist. The Gallente scout is the only counter to that. As a result, the Galscout is the most prevalent non-scanning scout simply because it's the only one that can survive those conditions. If you remove the dampening bonus from the Galscout, what becomes the dominant scout meta in PC? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3165	Posted - 2014.05.23 06:34:00 - [235] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Yeah, sure, that's the current meta. But how has the meta developed? It's because those Calscouts that can scan everything exist. The Gallente scout is the only counter to that. As a result, the Galscout is the most prevalent non-scanning scout simply because it's the only one that can survive those conditions. If you remove the dampening bonus from the Galscout, what becomes the dominant scout meta in PC? Then the gal will need to run 2 damps to get under the cal scout. Did you not read my proposal? CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1088	Posted - 2014.05.23 06:56:00 - [236] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Correct, the maths is full of assumptions and shortcuts. The original example was put together as a hypothetical only and was intended to be indicitive, to answer a comment in the Barbershop about making all HP modules % based. The 20% was arbritary and used to model in a way that mimics the current end total HP of a Gal heavy, and HP were applied without stacking penalty and against base HP only to simplify the calculations. I am in no way suggesting that this is the correct % or implementation. The intent of my post (as opposed to the execution), was to demonstrate that while % based increase would stop scouts from being able to brick tank, it also removes the ability for scouts to tank in any reasonable way. Assault scouts are a valid playstyle, and removing a valid playstyle due to issues with the current implementation of modules is a poor choice at best. Making all HP modules % based would make them unusable for light suits, particularly for ferro and reactive plates. If we were to go down the path of % HP modules, it would be a better choice to make a % based module for high base HP suits, with static modules to alow scouts limited, but useful, HP gain. This would have the additional benefit of pushing scouts towards using ferro/reactive plate, thus increasing fitting options while maintaining the playstyle option. Coupled with this, the current medium base HP totals would mean that they would be similarly affected by the change, nerfing an already underperforming class. Your argument that all other modules are % based is invalid, as it's based on the falicy that all modules should work by the same mechanism. There's no reasoning behind that, just an assumption. Weapons aren't % based, and HP modules should be balanced around incoming damage and not other modules. Your suggestion is only workable if every suit and every HP module is re-worked, which is unlikely in the current environment. No, my assertion that all other modules in this game are based upon a STANDARD design philosophy that only two types of modules break, shield HP and armor HP modules. It is further reinforced by the fact that CCP has knowlingly designed suits that certain modules are just downright useless on. Your assumption that the"assault scout" as a viable playstyle is 100% opinion and with numerous counter examples in CCP game design. For instance, on heavy suits(i.e. commandos and sentinels) damps, scan range and scan precision mods are next to useless because of the incredibly poor base stats of these suits. Actually, Scan range mods are more or less useless on all suits but the scouts. You also convieniently skip over the fact that the "assault scout" is hands down better than an assault is given the current meta. The "assault scout" can come within ~1-200 eHP while having greater scan radius, scan precision, profile dampening, movement speed, sprint speed, strafing speed, jumping ability, stamina pool, stamina regen, shield regen and an extra equipment slot. This suit is only competitive because of the ludicrous amount of relative HP a scout can get from set value armor plates. No, we do not need a jack of all trades, master of most suit (what the scout is now). We need a return to suits competing with eachother (stat wise) within their own class, as all of the rest of the suits do. Your argument stems from the belief that you would increase fitting options for one class of suit, you totally disregard the fact that having one suit class that is superior to another in nearly every facet destroys variety it doesn't increase it. You rally for less of a meta, not more of one. Scout suits should be just that... scout suits. Just like how logi suits should be logisuits and assault suits should be assault suits and so on. The great fitting system that we have allows a large variety of fits within each class, and yes to allow each class to perform (with lesser efficiency) roles it is not intended for. Absolute value HP modules directly contradict that. Base stats SHOULD matter. Fixing swarms
The-Errorist Sver true blood 714	Posted - 2014.05.23 06:57:00 - [237] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: A scanned scout is a dead scout. If every scout can be scanned there is no point in running scout because it has no role. That is really not true; scouts aren't as squishy as they were before 1.8 and non Gallente and Amarr scouts have usefull scouty roles such as hacking, scan precision, knife damage, and scan radius. RedPencil wrote: Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: yeah there is nothing wrong with 2 of the scouts and the other 2 are garbage you dont raise the 2 garbage ones by turning the other 2 into garbage. especially now that clocks will not be giving a damping bonus, thats going to make the proto gal scout users super fukin op True, Amarr scout is a joke but not Min cout. I'm not sure if you ever run Min or Amarr scout. Min need 2 damp to stay under pro to Active scan but still see by Cal, with their 2(3 at pro to) low slots limit them to chose to be low profile or a speed hack. I think the idea that you have to choose wisely how to fit is a basic balance. Try to give an proper explanation not to limit down Gal and Cal scout please. IgniteableAura wrote: First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible. To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks. Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout. The first thing that could be changed is the gal scouts range bonus. Why do they have it? It really doesn't correlate to the role of damping. If CCP could translate this damp bonus to your squad mates in the radius it would have a purpose, but I don't think thats something CCP can implement. This would provide a pretty good counter to the caldari. Read post #86 You only need 1 damp to hide from non-precision mod using Cal scouts and normal prototype scanners that aren't being used by the Gal logi, which also has a role bonus towards scanning (passive vs active), and 2 if it is being used by a Gal logi. If you want to be able to hide from a Gal logi using a prototype focused active scanner or a cal scout using 2 precison mods with only 2 damps on a scout that does not have a bonus towards dampening, you're just asking for too much. I also support removing shared passive scan. I would support having waves of opportunity from from cloak modules only if standard cloaks started off with a 0% dampening bonus and a higher percentage for adv and pro cloaks like Rattati suggested. This would alleviate the brick tanking scout w/ super low profile problem and still allow people to get a waves of dampening opportunity by using higher tier cloaks. Not every scout needs to be perfect hiders like the Gallente, they each should have their own roles other than dampening. There was another point brought up about how the Gal logi's bonus shouldn't overlap with Cal scout's bonus. The thing is, there are two types of scanning and they get a bonus to one and each has their own pros and cons. Passive scanning Always on with no cooldown Targets stay scanned as long as they stay in your scan radius 360 degree scans Short range Doesn't inform enemies of the scan attempt Doesn't take up an equipment slot No PG/CPU cost Can still move/interact normally Active scanning There's cooldown Targets stay scanned for at least 10s after low degree scans Longer range Inform enemies of the scan attempt and whether or not it was successful Take up an equipment slot Costs PG/CPU to fit Can't do anything else besides walk while scanning MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
The-Errorist Sver true blood 715	Posted - 2014.05.23 07:08:00 - [238] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: well if matari ewar bonus is hacking, then maybe the amar can set up a "firewall" by "hacking an already hacked objective" Thus increasing the amount of time needed to hack for all other roles, except for the matari, which would be normal hacking speed? Encrypting 5% per lvl :p This would be a great bonus if it also had a bonus to scrambler pistol damage. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
The-Errorist Sver true blood 715	Posted - 2014.05.23 07:12:00 - [239] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: The-Errorist wrote: it is impossible to hide from a Gal logi using a focused scan with only a medium frame. And that is how it should be. If you read the full post, it would be very clear that I never said or implied that you should be able to hide from a Gal logi using a focused scan with only a medium frame. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 253	Posted - 2014.05.23 07:33:00 - [240] - Quote I do agree that "waves of opportunity" is something worth preserving, if possible. What if they introduce a new cloak type: tactical cloak? I.e - Standard cloak will be as today, but with the dampening bonus removed (quite long duration and cool down) - Tactical cloak have dampening bonus, but drastically reduced duration (like 15-20 seconds) and slightly reduced cool down effect. This will give the scouts a choice between long duration of "visible" invisibility, or short durations of "total" invisibility.

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3167	Posted - 2014.05.23 07:40:00 - [241] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Inform enemies of the scan attempt and whether or not it was successful Last time I checked I thought they changed it so that active scans no longer give you a margin of error. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1180	Posted - 2014.05.23 09:17:00 - [242] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Brokerib wrote: Assault scouts are a valid playstyle... ...current medium base HP totals would mean that they would be similarly affected by the change, nerfing an already underperforming class. Weapons aren't % based, and HP modules should be balanced around incoming damage and not other modules. No, my assertion that all other modules in this game are based upon a STANDARD design philosophy that only two types of modules break, shield HP and armor HP modules. It is further reinforced by the fact that CCP has knowlingly designed suits that certain modules are just downright useless on. Your assumption that the"assault scout" as a viable playstyle is 100% opinion and with numerous counter examples in CCP game design. For instance, on heavy suits(i.e. commandos and sentinels) damps, scan range and scan precision mods are next to useless because of the incredibly poor base stats of these suits. Actually, Scan range mods are more or less useless on all suits but the scouts. You also convieniently skip over the fact that the "assault scout" is hands down better than an assault is given the current meta. The "assault scout" can come within ~1-200 eHP while having greater scan radius, scan precision, profile dampening, movement speed, sprint speed, strafing speed, jumping ability, stamina pool, stamina regen, shield regen and an extra equipment slot. This suit is only competitive because of the ludicrous amount of relative HP a scout can get from set value armor plates. No, we do not need a jack of all trades, master of most suit (what the scout is now). We need a return to suits competing with eachother (stat wise) within their own class, as all of the rest of the suits do. Your argument stems from the belief that you would increase fitting options for one class of suit, you totally disregard the fact that having one suit class that is superior to another in nearly every facet destroys variety it doesn't increase it. You rally for less of a meta, not more of one. Scout suits should be just that... scout suits. Just like how logi suits should be logisuits and assault suits should be assault suits and so on. The great fitting system that we have allows a large variety of fits within each class, and yes to allow each class to perform (with lesser efficiency) roles it is not intended for. Absolute value HP modules directly contradict that. Base stats SHOULD matter. EDIT: Or are you arguing that there should be a "Scout sentinel" role? Yes, base stats should matter. I don't believe that my posts in any way indicated otherwise. I just don't beleive that suits should be wholy beholden to them. The crux of my arguement is that we shouldn't break the scout, but that we should instead fix the systemic issues that have caused the abuse of the frame, while maintaining class versatility and playstyles. I've left the pertinent sections of my post above. I acknowledge Assaults are broken. The need to be fixed to be viable in the the 1.8 scout/heavy world. This, along with the nature of armor plate, the broken implementaiton of cloaks and the Gal bonus and slot configuration, is why Gal scouts are being abused currently. I don't see any complaints that Minmatar or Amarr scouts are OP or being abused. Which is interesting when you consider that the Amarr has the same slot layout with more base health, and only lacks the EWAR bonus. You state suit modules are all % based with the exception of HP modules, this is correct as far as it goes. But it is also a moot point, as HP modules are designed to counter weapon modules, that are static. There is no inconsistency in design philosophy. I agree that range amps are useless on heavies and assaults, and to a lesser degree presicision mods. This is an artefact of the limited scan radius that all suits up until 1.7/1.8 suffered from. Dampeners, however, are not. A single complex and single basic will get a heavy under an advanced scanner. Similarly, I see heavies using biotic modules to enhance their speed. Assaults have been able to do the same quite sucessfully prior to 1.8. Under the design philosophy you're arguing, none of this should be possible, because it 'breaks the mould'. This is a rough visual representation on what I would like to see. We currently have this: Sc ____XXXXXX_____ Logi ____XXXXX_____ Ass _____XXX______ Com ______XX____ Sen ________XXX___ Where scouts are able to compete at too many levels due to the way suit modules are setup, Logi's are still over powered compared to Assaults, and Commando's are limited in their versatility. The changes you're advocating make the meta begin to look like this, assuing assaults are fixed and not further marginalised: Sc ____XX___________ Logi _____XX_________ Ass _______ XX______ Com _________XX____ Sen ___________XX__ Where every suit has a defined role that makes it difficult for them to cross over. In this situation there is no reason to play outside your 'role', which reduces diversity. And what I'm talking about looks something like this: Sc ____XXXX__________ Logi ____XXXX________ Ass ______XXXX_______ Com _______XXXX_____ Sen _________XXXX___ Where you have freedom in fitting so you can compete with other suits in their own speciality, but if they choose to fit to highlight their strengths, then they will be more effective in that role. To answer your other point, Assault scout isn't an opinion, it's an existing playstyle. The Amarr is as a light assault suit. It loses out to every other scout in every other area, except when used as an assault frame. I hear from a lot of people that scout suits should be scouts only. And by that, they mean exactly their definition of a scout. I disagree. A number of playstyles can be supported for each suit type, and enhances the game when possible. Hopefully that clarifies my position. Knowledge is power
Arkenia Wyrnspire Nos Nothi 235	Posted - 2014.05.23 10:07:00 - [243] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Yeah, sure, that's the current meta. But how has the meta developed? It's because those Calscouts that can scan everything exist. The Gallente scout is the only counter to that. As a result, the Galscout is the most prevalent non-scanning scout simply because it's the only one that can survive those conditions. If you remove the dampening bonus from the Galscout, what becomes the dominant scout meta in PC? Then the gal will need to run 2 damps to get under the cal scout. Did you not read my proposal? No. It will need four damps. Might be Arkena Wyrnspire.
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 106	Posted - 2014.05.23 10:16:00 - [244] - Quote Please don't get rid of shared passive scans CCP. I love this feature, it isn't OP. There are better solutions to problems.
mr musturd 0uter.Heaven 427	Posted - 2014.05.23 10:45:00 - [245] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Starfire Revo wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The only way they'll make dampening less important is if they nerf the hell out of the tacnet. Meaning no more chevron wallhacks. No more showing what direction you're facing. Getting scanned is the worst thing that can happen to you. Good players know how to use and abuse the tacnet system because it is OP as hell. What would your thoughts be on these changes if they removed passive shared squad vision? Honestly after much much playing I'd rather no scout get the nova knife bonus. It's not a universally effective bonus. It's awesome but outside of pubmatches you can't knife people. Knifing skilled players is ridiculously hard even for people who run them all the time. They're unreliable (hit detection / narrow FOV) and too easily countered (back pedaling and bunny hopping counters knives and breaks hit detection). Though the bonus is fun you're still bringing a knife to a gunfight. That's just my opinion though. I love the knife bonus but the knives themselves are simply just "fun" and not practical in their current form. I'd like to see a minor tweak to myrofibrils so running one is more worth it if this was the case. Not sure what the math would work out to if Minnies got a bonus to hand to hand. ~400 ehp is about the minimum amount of a health a scout should have in my opinion. Anything less than 300 shields plus the 80 armor on a proto suit just makes it an expensive casket because you'll just get instapopped by everything otherwise. There needs to be a happy medium of both fun and practical. As for the amarr suit really that's usefulness comes down to how useful reactive and ferro's are after their tweaks. You are right about PC being a very narrow pool of players but it is the only mode we have a team deploy on. Full team modes where people are more likely to coordinate and play tactically are where they should be gathering relevant data. edit: just read oswald's earlier post about moving bonuses to the modules and totally agree with it. moody love ya bro but the reason knives cant be used in competitive gameplay is due to the minmitar scout having having a major problem avoiding cal scouts in PC to avoid them you lose your main advantage when knifing "speed" you fill all your lows with complex damps to avoid 1 race. If the suit was up to par and able to keep speed and damp you better believe id be knifing in every PC. That high alpha damage from the knife is the best way to stop a hacker or put down a heavy, if the suit itself didnt suck i believe there would be more knives in PC
DozersMouse XIII Inner.Hell 816	Posted - 2014.05.23 11:21:00 - [246] - Quote make scouts only have 1 equipment slot don't harm the hamsters
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1151	Posted - 2014.05.23 13:17:00 - [247] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible. To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks. Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout. The first thing that could be changed is the gal scouts range bonus. Why do they have it? It really doesn't correlate to the role of damping. If CCP could translate this damp bonus to your squad mates in the radius it would have a purpose, but I don't think thats something CCP can implement. This would provide a pretty good counter to the caldari. Read post #86 You only need 1 damp to hide from non-precision mod using Cal scouts and normal prototype scanners that aren't being used by the Gal logi, which also has a role bonus towards scanning (passive vs active), and 2 if it is being used by a Gal logi. If you want to be able to hide from a Gal logi using a prototype focused active scanner or a cal scout using 2 precison mods with only 2 damps on a scout that does not have a bonus towards dampening, you're just asking for too much. I also support removing shared passive scan. I would support having waves of opportunity from from cloak modules only if standard cloaks started off with a 0% dampening bonus and a higher percentage for adv and pro cloaks like Rattati suggested. This would alleviate the brick tanking scout w/ super low profile problem and still allow people to get a waves of dampening opportunity by using higher tier cloaks. Not every scout needs to be perfect hiders like the Gallente, they each should have their own roles other than dampening. Again with people not understanding the game mechanics. No scout can avoid cal scans with 2 complex precision enhancers without at least 2 damps, PERIOD. UNLESS they use a cloak. Which then gives them a wave of opportunity to hide without completely compromising their fit for it. Current numbers (rounded up because thats how game mechanics work): Cal w/ 2cPE: 18dB Gal w/ 1cPD: 18dB (scanned) Cal/Amarr/Minnie w/ 2cPD: 18dB (scanned) Any Cal scout running 2cPE is a squishy target <200 shields. EVEN more so if they are running range amps. They currently can't hide from other cal scout scans either. So cals have two counters. Another cal scout, OR a gal scout. Youtube
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 1075	Posted - 2014.05.23 14:00:00 - [248] - Quote There should be separate starting Db levels on MLT/BSC/SCOUT as to reward SP investment Rather than the current BS of a MLT Gal light out tanks my Pro Minmatar Scout, while having equal Db level MLT Light - tough crap, recieves basic scanning (unless has bouns from profile damp skill) BSC Light - Just enough to dodge basic scans, Adv will hunt you EZ Scout - Avoids Adv scanning gathered they have at least L3 Profile Dampening Proto Scouts - It is full on stupid that only one scout can viably dampen ... This needs to be changed I have seen a bonus to make Gal cloak duration longer this would be a good trade-off if all scouts could effectively dampen... It will keep Gallente as the master of stealth scouting, while not making 3 suits invalid A scanned scout is a dead scout, don't be fooled by the FoTm abusers If you adjust the Db ratings then the removal of dampening bonus from cloak is a good thing, IF you do it right.... but All four scouts need to dampen effectively, not just one 'D1CK by name' 'D1CK by nature'
Starfire Revo Inner.Hell 281	Posted - 2014.05.23 14:34:00 - [249] - Quote Out of curiosity, I've been playing around with changing the gal/cal bonuses to a +25% bonus to modules. I'm not saying this is the correct path for CCP to go down, but thought it was interesting. Gal Dampening 31.5 - 0 mods 21.656 - 1 complex 15.768 - 2 complex 12.959 - 3 complex On it's own, this changes the Gal Scout so that it can no longer be immune to itself without damps. Going 4x armour mods is far less viable using this model and in order to beat the Cal numbers below, gal scouts would need 2 complex damps. They would also need 3 damps (or 2 damps and a 10% bonused cloak) to beat a focused scanner and current day Cal numbers. Cal Precision 36 - 0 mods 27 - 1 complex 21.13 - 2 complex 18 - 3 complex 16.747 - 4 complex This makes the Cal weaker against regular scouts and the fourth mod doesn't really do anything. It has a 2 precision beats 1 damp and 3 precision beats 2 damps meta. Also forces the above Gal scout numbers to use 2 damps to avoid Cal scouts. Again, this is just me adding some numbers to the discussion, not saying it should be changed this way. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1091	Posted - 2014.05.23 15:53:00 - [250] - Quote Brokerib wrote: stuff. I think you are misrepresenting my view on the issue, while underplaying how incredibly unbalancing having scouts with over 500 eHP is, and while totally ignoring the fact that scouts as they are now beat out all of the rest of the suits in nearly every base stat. You keep ignoring how scouts are incredibly good at numerous roles aside from the HP reliant one (assaulting) but yet claim that this role should be in their forte as well. I think you are also not undersanding why everyone hates the amarr scout, it is precisely because it is just an assault suit (actually it is better than the amarr assault with all but the scrambler/laser). Actually the amarr scout is better than both the amarr assault (sans laser weaponry) and the basic amarr logi (same number of equipment slots) precisely because of base stats and how HP modules currently work. It has zero use as a scout, all of the other scout suits just offer more. On top of all of this, you keep bringing up weapons like that is some type of coutner-example, it isn't. Weapons are to base HP as weapon damage modifiers are to HP modifiers, this is pretty cut and dry so I don't feel like we need to spend more time on this. Why were logis better (and still are) at assaulting than assault suits? Because of HP modules in their current state.... why are scouts better than logis and assaults at assaulting? Because of HP modules in their current state. Once you get over that 6-700 eHP barrier, ~100 eHP isn't as important versatility. What you are defending is having scout overshadowing medium suits as a whole. What I am advocating is pretty plain and simple.... that scouts should NEVER compete with assaults in the assaulting role given it's many other roles. I mean jesus man, look at eve.. do you really think a frigate comes anywhere near lose to a cruiser in raw HP values? To further clarify this... it is like having interceptor/ewar frigs being able to have comparible HP values to the heavy assault cruisers n eve. It makes absolutely no sense from any perspective. If you want a light assault class, then petition CCP to make one, stop trying to turn *scouts* into something that they should never have been. I mean with this way of thinking, why even have two types of suit per class? Why not just make one medium, one heavy and one light that can all overlap eachother so much as to completely rule out any reason for specialization. Take away these raw HP increasing modules and you get assault -> good at asaulting(slaying) and decent positioning not so good at logi/ewar/area denial logi -> good at providing team support and can be decent at ewar but not so good at slaying, positioning, or area denial sentinel -> great at area denial but not so good at ewar, positioning, logi scout -> great at positioning and ewar, not so goot at slaying and area denial TLDR: every suit needs to be bad at something..... Scouts should be bad at taking a punch. Abolute HP modules fly directly in the face of that. Fixing swarms

ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 649	Posted - 2014.05.23 17:14:00 - [251] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: A scanned scout is a dead scout. If every scout can be scanned there is no point in running scout because it has no role. That is really not true; scouts aren't as squishy as they were before 1.8 and non Gallente and Amarr scouts have usefull scouty roles such as hacking, scan precision, knife damage, and scan radius. RedPencil wrote: Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: yeah there is nothing wrong with 2 of the scouts and the other 2 are garbage you dont raise the 2 garbage ones by turning the other 2 into garbage. especially now that clocks will not be giving a damping bonus, thats going to make the proto gal scout users super fukin op True, Amarr scout is a joke but not Min cout. I'm not sure if you ever run Min or Amarr scout. Min need 2 damp to stay under pro to Active scan but still see by Cal, with their 2(3 at pro to) low slots limit them to chose to be low profile or a speed hack. I think the idea that you have to choose wisely how to fit is a basic balance. Try to give an proper explanation not to limit down Gal and Cal scout please. IgniteableAura wrote: First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible. To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks. Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout. The first thing that could be changed is the gal scouts range bonus. Why do they have it? It really doesn't correlate to the role of damping. If CCP could translate this damp bonus to your squad mates in the radius it would have a purpose, but I don't think thats something CCP can implement. This would provide a pretty good counter to the caldari. Read post #86 You only need 1 damp to hide from non-precision mod using Cal scouts and normal prototype scanners that aren't being used by the Gal logi, which also has a role bonus towards scanning (passive vs active), and 2 if it is being used by a Gal logi. If you want to be able to hide from a Gal logi using a prototype focused active scanner or a cal scout using 2 precison mods with only 2 damps on a scout that does not have a bonus towards dampening, you're just asking for too much. I also support removing shared passive scan. I would support having waves of opportunity from from cloak modules only if standard cloaks started off with a 0% dampening bonus and a higher percentage for adv and pro cloaks like Rattati suggested. This would alleviate the brick tanking scout w/ super low profile problem and still allow people to get a waves of dampening opportunity by using higher tier cloaks. Not every scout needs to be perfect hiders like the Gallente, they each should have their own roles other than dampening. There was another point brought up about how the Gal logi's bonus shouldn't overlap with Cal scout's bonus. The thing is, there are two types of scanning and they get a bonus to one and each has their own pros and cons. Passive scanning Always on with no cooldown Targets stay scanned as long as they stay in your scan radius 360 degree scans Short range Doesn't inform enemies of the scan attempt Doesn't take up an equipment slot No PG/CPU cost Can still move/interact normally Active scanning There's cooldown Targets stay scanned for at least 10s after low degree scans Longer range Inform enemies of the scan attempt and whether or not it was successful Take up an equipment slot Costs PG/CPU to fit Can't do anything else besides walk while scanning Where are the "PROs" of active scanners again? I see distance, that's not plural. YouTube
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 383	Posted - 2014.05.23 17:55:00 - [252] - Quote The arrow over their head is brighter :P Not like they can't equip more than just 1 active scanner, including the type. It's equipment slots, not high and lows like scouts need to use. Thus you don't lose your survivability (hp) to perform scans. We have to equip multiple modules to make our passives worth a **, otherwise any medium with a brain can counter our passives. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.**
DozersMouse XIII Inner.Hell 820	Posted - 2014.05.23 19:40:00 - [253] - Quote i'm glad you are holding off scout changes for a later date tbh there is a crapload more that needs to be discussed on the issues I for 1 am torn on the proposed 25% cloak dampening being revoked this puts 3 scouts in harms way and that's not good for business don't harm the hamsters
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1155	Posted - 2014.05.23 21:01:00 - [254] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: The arrow over their head is brighter :P Not like they can't equip more than just 1 active scanner, including the type. It's equipment slots, not high and lows like scouts need to use. Thus you don't lose your survivability (hp) to perform scans. We have to equip multiple modules to make our passives worth a ****, otherwise any medium with a brain can counter our passives. There are a ton of PROs for active scanners, on top of what spartan mentioned. There is a huge flexibility in them. Passive scans dont really showcase where enemies are located nearly as well and they don't show up on the overhead map for SLs trying to drop orbitals. Passive scans only show enemies for squad mates that are close enough for them to pop on their own radar while active scanners show up regardless of range. Youtube
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 800	Posted - 2014.05.23 21:07:00 - [255] - Quote how is a scanned scout a dead scout?. i was trapped in a tiny little bunker with a pillar in the center of it with a mlt shotgun fit mlt gal scout and such. and survived the rail tank and some what hesitant heavies. who dared to enter. dust 514 shall be eternal. pve for dust 514. oh look. FF somehow made dust better!.
Engineer Ramos The Phoenix Federation Caps and Mercs 0	Posted - 2014.05.23 22:42:00 - [256] - Quote My 2isk. As someone who has used proto cal and gal scout I believe they should change the gal scout dampening bonus to a cloak duration bonus. This both levels the playing ground for other scouts while preserving the lore of gallente dampening and staying invisible longer. A gallente should still be able to remain off the cal scouts tacnet but at a price. You can't possibly agree with having a proto cal scout sacrificing 4 high slots (a specialist in your terms) to be beaten by 2 mere low slots which my dren scout can achieve. If you want to beat 15 db, you should sacrifice 4 slots. Takes a specialist to beat a specialist.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1583	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:15:00 - [257] - Quote We are still open to simple suggestions. Most of what I read here is "do you even PC scout bro" and "you have to completely redesign the whole ewar/scout ethos". We are not going to do that. We already changed the proposal to have a progression in dampening: STD/ADV/PRO 0%/2.5%/5.0%. It seems to me that reducing the dampening bonus of the GA scout, or changing it to duration can level the scouts viability. And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others split the 50%. Cyrius Li Moody, as the most vocal opponent, and the rest of you as well :). Do you want to contribute and propose a simple change to the scouts, which was the purpose of this thread. In this form with fake examples. MM f.ex. run speed % AM f.ex. ehp bonus % CA is fine GA f.ex. reduce dampening bonus % "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1724	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:20:00 - [258] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We are still open to simple suggestions. Most of what I read here is "do you even PC scout bro" and "you have to completely redesign the whole ewar/scout ethos". We are not going to do that. We already changed the proposal to have a progression in dampening: STD/ADV/PRO 0%/2.5%/5.0%. It seems to me that reducing the dampening bonus of the GA scout, or changing it to duration can level the scouts viability. And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others are around 15% each. . Cyrius Li Moody, as the most vocal opponent, and the rest of you as well :). Do you want to contribute and propose a simple change to the scouts, which was the purpose of this thread. In this form with fake examples. MM r.ex.r un speed % AM f.ex. ehp bonus % CA is fine GA f.ex. reduce dampening bonus % I just want to plead, please, do not chnage the galscout bonus to something that requires the cloak. Perhaps to efficiency of Profile damps? Or, instead of putting down the Gal, bring the others up? (Also, the Assaults need a pass, else it'll stay skewed) I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3179	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:22:00 - [259] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We are still open to simple suggestions. Most of what I read here is "do you even PC scout bro" and "you have to completely redesign the whole ewar/scout ethos". We are not going to do that. We already changed the proposal to have a progression in dampening: STD/ADV/PRO 0%/2.5%/5.0%. It seems to me that reducing the dampening bonus of the GA scout, or changing it to duration can level the scouts viability. And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others split the 50%. Cyrius Li Moody, as the most vocal opponent, and the rest of you as well :). Do you want to contribute and propose a simple change to the scouts, which was the purpose of this thread. In this form with fake examples. MM f.ex. run speed % AM f.ex. ehp bonus % CA is fine GA f.ex. reduce dampening bonus % I spoke with hans and let him have the numbers to support this. Until you can get around to a proper e-war balancing act, which a few of us have been discussing at length on how to accomplish properly in the least amount of steps, please consider making the damp bonus on the cloak 10% at proto level, which would allow a min max min scout to get under all scans. Alternatively, if you ARE open to making SOME e-war changes I strongly suggest you look at the proposal by gimble and tech about changing the bonuses to gal and cal to be % based bonuses to modules. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3179	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:24:00 - [260] - Quote Spademan wrote: I just want to plead, please, do not chnage the galscout bonus to something that requires the cloak. Perhaps to efficiency of Profile damps? Or, instead of putting down the Gal, bring the others up? (Also, the Assaults need a pass, else it'll stay skewed) PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS (as in change the gal scout bonus to something requiring the cloak) Why? Because the point of balancing this should be that the cloak is viable WITHOUT being unscannable. Which is why Appia and I and others have been working all day on some fantastic ideas we'll be proposing soon about how to do this. I hate the fact the cloak is only useful in conjunction WITH being unscannable. Make them work independently and together. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

Balamob SVER True Blood Dirt Nap Squad. 30	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:31:00 - [261] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We are still open to simple suggestions. Most of what I read here is "do you even PC scout bro" and "you have to completely redesign the whole ewar/scout ethos". We are not going to do that. We already changed the proposal to have a progression in dampening: STD/ADV/PRO 0%/2.5%/5.0%. It seems to me that reducing the dampening bonus of the GA scout, or changing it to duration can level the scouts viability. And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others split the 50%. Cyrius Li Moody, as the most vocal opponent, and the rest of you as well :). Do you want to contribute and propose a simple change to the scouts, which was the purpose of this thread. In this form with fake examples. MM f.ex. run speed % AM f.ex. ehp bonus % CA is fine GA f.ex. reduce dampening bonus % I have a question.... what do u think a scout should do in order to deal with proto gal logi scanners? (no troll) As i mentioned b4 by numbers, they can detect any scout with 21dB or higher with any proto scanner (not even mentioning flux proto scanner which would detect 15.75), their dB using adv cloak in order to keep me alive and a proto dampener + the passive from dampeners lvl 5 would be 12.875 less dB which is 22.025. Dont know if that will be enough, dont know the exact mechanics of dB in motion or standin still. Being a Templar is a vow for life.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5736	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:33:00 - [262] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We are still open to simple suggestions. Most of what I read here is "do you even PC scout bro" and "you have to completely redesign the whole ewar/scout ethos". We are not going to do that. We already changed the proposal to have a progression in dampening: STD/ADV/PRO 0%/2.5%/5.0%. It seems to me that reducing the dampening bonus of the GA scout, or changing it to duration can level the scouts viability. And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others split the 50%. Cyrius Li Moody, as the most vocal opponent, and the rest of you as well :). Do you want to contribute and propose a simple change to the scouts, which was the purpose of this thread. In this form with fake examples. MM f.ex. run speed % AM f.ex. ehp bonus % CA is fine GA f.ex. reduce dampening bonus % I spoke with hans and let him have the numbers to support this. Until you can get around to a proper e-war balancing act, which a few of us have been discussing at length on how to accomplish properly in the least amount of steps, please consider making the damp bonus on the cloak 10% at proto level, which would allow a min max min scout to get under all scans. Alternatively, if you ARE open to making SOME e-war changes I strongly suggest you look at the proposal by gimble and tech about changing the bonuses to gal and cal to be % based bonuses to modules. Couldn't you accomplish pretty much the same thing by giving Minmatar Scouts an additional low slot? Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2566	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:37:00 - [263] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We are still open to simple suggestions. Most of what I read here is "do you even PC scout bro" and "you have to completely redesign the whole ewar/scout ethos". We are not going to do that. We already changed the proposal to have a progression in dampening: STD/ADV/PRO 0%/2.5%/5.0%. It seems to me that reducing the dampening bonus of the GA scout, or changing it to duration can level the scouts viability. And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others split the 50%. Cyrius Li Moody, as the most vocal opponent, and the rest of you as well :). Do you want to contribute and propose a simple change to the scouts, which was the purpose of this thread. In this form with fake examples. MM f.ex. run speed % AM f.ex. ehp bonus % CA is fine GA f.ex. reduce dampening bonus % Take away Gallente bonus to dampening. Make it a Scout skill instead. Take away Caldari bonus to Range to equal the two suits out. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5516	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:39:00 - [264] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We are still open to simple suggestions. Most of what I read here is "do you even PC scout bro" and "you have to completely redesign the whole ewar/scout ethos". We are not going to do that. We already changed the proposal to have a progression in dampening: STD/ADV/PRO 0%/2.5%/5.0%. It seems to me that reducing the dampening bonus of the GA scout, or changing it to duration can level the scouts viability. And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others split the 50%. Cyrius Li Moody, as the most vocal opponent, and the rest of you as well :). Do you want to contribute and propose a simple change to the scouts, which was the purpose of this thread. In this form with fake examples. MM f.ex. run speed % AM f.ex. ehp bonus % CA is fine GA f.ex. reduce dampening bonus % My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1724	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:44:00 - [265] - Quote Oh, Idea: What if the Cloak brought your profile down to a set level? The way the Active scanner sans at a set level. This could bring in options for variants too. In the same way the focused(I think) has a more powerful but shorter lived scan, there could be a cloak variant with a powerful but short lived dampening effect. And a quantum (I think that's the one) lasts longer. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1584	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:48:00 - [266] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: The-Errorist wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible. To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks. Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout. The first thing that could be changed is the gal scouts range bonus. Why do they have it? It really doesn't correlate to the role of damping. If CCP could translate this damp bonus to your squad mates in the radius it would have a purpose, but I don't think thats something CCP can implement. This would provide a pretty good counter to the caldari. Read post #86 You only need 1 damp to hide from non-precision mod using Cal scouts and normal prototype scanners that aren't being used by the Gal logi, which also has a role bonus towards scanning (passive vs active), and 2 if it is being used by a Gal logi. If you want to be able to hide from a Gal logi using a prototype focused active scanner or a cal scout using 2 precison mods with only 2 damps on a scout that does not have a bonus towards dampening, you're just asking for too much. I also support removing shared passive scan. I would support having waves of opportunity from from cloak modules only if standard cloaks started off with a 0% dampening bonus and a higher percentage for adv and pro cloaks like Rattati suggested. This would alleviate the brick tanking scout w/ super low profile problem and still allow people to get a waves of dampening opportunity by using higher tier cloaks. Not every scout needs to be perfect hiders like the Gallente, they each should have their own roles other than dampening. Again with people not understanding the game mechanics. No scout can avoid cal scans with 2 complex precision enhancers without at least 2 damps, PERIOD. UNLESS they use a cloak. Which then gives them a wave of opportunity to hide without completely compromising their fit for it. Current numbers (rounded up because thats how game mechanics work): Cal w/ 2cPE: 18dB Gal w/ 1cPD: 18dB (scanned) ---------> Activate cloak (not scanned) Cal/Amarr/Minnie w/ 2cPD: 18dB (scanned) ------------> Activate cloak (not scanned) Any Cal scout running 2cPE is a squishy target ~300 shields. EVEN more so if they are running range amps (<400hp). They currently can't hide from other cal scout scans either. So cals have three counters. Another cal scout, OR a gal scout or proto logi scanner. Lastly, a scanned scout is a dead scout. As soon as I am getting scanned frequently I switch roles to a heavy or Gal scout. The current scanning system is the most elegantly balanced system we have in the game and it works in its current form. You have counters and counters of counters and final counters and waves of opportunity. No other system in the game give you this sort of balance. Since it is so elegantly balanced, why are gallente scouts predominant [no troll]. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5516	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:52:00 - [267] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Since it is so elegantly balanced, why are gallente scouts predominant [no troll]. Because you can fit 2 damps and maintain 500+ hp. You can have 200 shields plus 300 plus armor. It can be the tankiest and still maintain it's role as a scout. There's no reason not to put two shield extenders in your highs and no reason not to fill the rest of your unused low slots with tank. It also has an innate armor regen. Armor also has insanely low fitting costs so while you equip all of this you can also equip the best weapons, a good cloak, and an RE or an uplink while also maintaining good mobility. Every other scout has to make sacrifices while the gallente does not. It is a combination of many things as to why the gallente is king. Not just a single issue. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2567	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:14:00 - [268] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You can barely fit an adv cloak at proto level as it is with two damps. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. Yep Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 881	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:17:00 - [269] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: The-Errorist wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible. To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks. Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout. The first thing that could be changed is the gal scouts range bonus. Why do they have it? It really doesn't correlate to the role of damping. If CCP could translate this damp bonus to your squad mates in the radius it would have a purpose, but I don't think thats something CCP can implement. This would provide a pretty good counter to the caldari. Read post #86 You only need 1 damp to hide from non-precision mod using Cal scouts and normal prototype scanners that aren't being used by the Gal logi, which also has a role bonus towards scanning (passive vs active), and 2 if it is being used by a Gal logi. If you want to be able to hide from a Gal logi using a prototype focused active scanner or a cal scout using 2 precison mods with only 2 damps on a scout that does not have a bonus towards dampening, you're just asking for too much. I also support removing shared passive scan. I would support having waves of opportunity from from cloak modules only if standard cloaks started off with a 0% dampening bonus and a higher percentage for adv and pro cloaks like Rattati suggested. This would alleviate the brick tanking scout w/ super low profile problem and still allow people to get a waves of dampening opportunity by using higher tier cloaks. Not every scout needs to be perfect hiders like the Gallente, they each should have their own roles other than dampening. Again with people not understanding the game mechanics. No scout can avoid cal scans with 2 complex precision enhancers without at least 2 damps, PERIOD. UNLESS they use a cloak. Which then gives them a wave of opportunity to hide without completely compromising their fit for it. Current numbers (rounded up because thats how game mechanics work): Cal w/ 2cPE: 18dB Gal w/ 1cPD: 18dB (scanned) ---------> Activate cloak (not scanned) Cal/Amarr/Minnie w/ 2cPD: 18dB (scanned) ------------> Activate cloak (not scanned) Any Cal scout running 2cPE is a squishy target ~300 shields. EVEN more so if they are running range amps (<400hp). They currently can't hide from other cal scout scans either. So cals have three counters. Another cal scout, OR a gal scout or proto logi scanner. Lastly, a scanned scout is a dead scout. As soon as I am getting scanned frequently I switch roles to a heavy or Gal scout. The current scanning system is the most elegantly balanced system we have in the game and it works in its current form. You have counters and counters of counters and final counters and waves of opportunity. No other system in the game give you this sort of balance. Since it is so elegantly balanced, why are gallente scouts predominant [no troll]. I would actually say it's because the majority of the modules are low slots, that is why I went gal scout. CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.
Starfire Revo Inner.Hell 284	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:19:00 - [270] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others split the 50%. I'd like to note that the reason the Gal scouts are this popular is because the Cal scout is so strong in combination with squad vision. Unless you nerf the Gal scout into the ground, it will continue to be as popular as it is because it's the only dropsuit that can get under Cal vision while keeping a decent chunk of health. If you don't change Cal and squad vision while nerfing Gal scouts, all other scouts will be replaced by other roles. The only way I can see making this "balanced" without changing some core gameplay would be to scrap the Gal/Cal bonuses and give them something else entirely. It's possible that you make it work with changing the Gal scout to a module based bonus so that he needs to use 2 mods (or 1 mod with an active cloak) to get under triple unbonused mod Cals. As it stands now though, serious changes need to happen to make not only scouts balanced, but other frames too. Not sure what you'd give Cal instead in this circumstance. I dunno though, e-war is messy. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com

Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 881	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:20:00 - [271] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We are still open to simple suggestions. Most of what I read here is "do you even PC scout bro" and "you have to completely redesign the whole ewar/scout ethos". We are not going to do that. We already changed the proposal to have a progression in dampening: STD/ADV/PRO 0%/2.5%/5.0%. It seems to me that reducing the dampening bonus of the GA scout, or changing it to duration can level the scouts viability. And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others split the 50%. Cyrius Li Moody, as the most vocal opponent, and the rest of you as well :). Do you want to contribute and propose a simple change to the scouts, which was the purpose of this thread. In this form with fake examples. MM f.ex. run speed % AM f.ex. ehp bonus % CA is fine GA f.ex. reduce dampening bonus % My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You can barely fit an adv cloak at proto level as it is with two damps. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. Please listen to this CCP. You have to be really careful what you do here. Some of the ideas your putting forward are really going to cause the cal scout to dominate. Also please consider the fact that one cal scout in a squad allows everyone in that squad to see a scout. CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2567	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:21:00 - [272] - Quote MM 5% per level to Nova Knife Damage and Codebreakers efficacy AM Increase base Stamina/Stamina Regeneration. Add relevant, debatable scout skills CA 3% per level to efficacy of Precision Enhancers GA 3% per level to efficacy of Range Amplifiers Scout -15% CPU/PG per level to cloak. 5% per level to efficacy of Profile Dampeners Change Duvolle Focused Active Scanner to 5 second duration, 15 second cooldown, 24 dB Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1586	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:27:00 - [273] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You can barely fit an adv cloak at proto level as it is with two damps. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. Yep So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 969	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:28:00 - [274] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We are still open to simple suggestions. Most of what I read here is "do you even PC scout bro" and "you have to completely redesign the whole ewar/scout ethos". We are not going to do that. We already changed the proposal to have a progression in dampening: STD/ADV/PRO 0%/2.5%/5.0%. It seems to me that reducing the dampening bonus of the GA scout, or changing it to duration can level the scouts viability. And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others split the 50%. Cyrius Li Moody, as the most vocal opponent, and the rest of you as well :). Do you want to contribute and propose a simple change to the scouts, which was the purpose of this thread. In this form with fake examples. MM f.ex. run speed % AM f.ex. ehp bonus % CA is fine GA f.ex. reduce dampening bonus % Take away Gallente bonus to dampening. Make it a Scout skill instead. Take away Caldari bonus to Range to equal the two suits out. MM Nova Knife and Hacking AM Stamina and stealth uplink deployment CA Precision Bonus GA Range Bonus Scout -15% CPU/PG per level to cloak. -5% to profile Looks really good, Appia. The only thing I'd change is AM as stealth ULS are likely not possible. Scout - Cloak + Damp MM - NK + Hack AM - Biotics CA - Precision GA - Range @ Rattati Most of those GalScouts are mercs waiting for better Assaults. The number will drop when we get a new slayer suit. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Llast 326 An Arkhos 3211	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:29:00 - [275] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: MM 5% per level to Nova Knife Damage and Codebreakers efficacy AM Increase base Stamina/Stamina Regeneration. Add relevant, debatable scout skills CA 3% per level to efficacy of Precision Enhancers GA 3% per level to efficacy of Range Amplifiers Scout -15% CPU/PG per level to cloak. 5% per level to efficacy of Profile Dampeners Change Duvolle Focused Active Scanner to 5 second duration, 15 second cooldown, 24 dB Do you have a Mathpia chart on this You have my interest in thisGÇª but you know my math skillsGÇª KRRROOOOOOM
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3180	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:30:00 - [276] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You can barely fit an adv cloak at proto level as it is with two damps. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. Yep So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium? NONONONONONONONONONONONO Giving all scouts EZ mode unscannable is stupid and broken You need to take the middle road and not fanatics who honestly wouldn't complain if all scouts just came unscannable and cloaks remained 90 seconds and all slots are available to use for other things. This is absolutely ludicrous. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3180	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:32:00 - [277] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I think it's only a bad idea IF they choose not to pair it with the end of squad vision. Make scanners the only way to relay location to squadmates. While this will bring the caldari down to the ama/min plebs, the issue still stands that its gallente over the rest by leaps and bounds. Also these changes are going to actually increase the amount of slayer fits since ewar is now a non competitive game, more ehp buffing will be taking its place, which is a 180 from what this change is suppose to do. No doubt the gal bonus needs nerfed and most likely the base profile of scouts needs buffed. The bonuses of gal and cal should not be so incredibly strong as to warrant 2 modules worth of difference, max 1. The bonus's need to be 1 module difference, not 2, speaking of the cal and gal scout bonuses at the high end e-war. I suggest that lowering profile and nerfing the bonus's would perform this simply. Perhaps I'm just REALLY tired, but that seems to make sense to me. Here's even more tired thoughts just for fun and to get something you can flame me for: Minmatar scouts should take 2 complex damps to get under all but a cal scout with 3 complex precision or a dude using a regular focused scanner (2 complex 1 enhanced), and require 3 complex to get under a cal scout using 4 complex precision. Gal logi using focused scanners should be able to pick it up for the 5 second duration assuming you are in the radius and range. Amarr should be the same except 4 complex should get you under a gal logi using a focused. Gallente should be the same except require one less damp. Cal should be limited by their 2 low slots and thus would only be immune to all but a regular focused, gal focused, and other cal scouts. No real thoughts on balancing medium's using precisions except a 1 to 1 ratio vs other mediums. I also refrained from commenting on scouts precision outside of cal scout, which is why this may all be flawed. Who knows i'm tired. Night. I absolutely think a dude specced into gal logi for the scan bonus and using a piece of equipment that only lights you up for 5 seconds should be the end all be all at counterplay to dampening. and that it should take an arm and a leg for scouts to get under a 4 precision cal scout, and give you pause when considering if it's worth it to get under a gal logi trying to pick you up with a focused. This aside from making min scouts unscannable with 3 complex damps is the way to go. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Ghost Kaisar The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 4866	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:32:00 - [278] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You can barely fit an adv cloak at proto level as it is with two damps. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. Yep So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium? NONONONONONONONONONONONO Giving all scouts EZ mode unscannable is stupid and broken You need to take the middle road and not fanatics who honestly wouldn't complain if all scouts just came unscannable and cloaks remained 90 seconds and all slots are available to use for other things. This is absolutely ludicrous. Too Clutch Yo. I agree with Zatara though. We don't want broken scouts. We want balanced. Headed to Destiny, To Hell with CCP PSN: EVL_Elgost105 RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
Patrick57 Fatal Absolution 7583	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:32:00 - [279] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: NONONONONONONONONONONONO Giving all scouts EZ mode unscannable is stupid and broken You need to take the middle road and not fanatics who honestly wouldn't complain if all scouts just came unscannable and cloaks remained 90 seconds and all slots are available to use for other things. This is absolutely ludicrous. Scouts are not allowed to be too clutch. New [self proclaimed] CEO of Fatal Absolution 31+ mil SP Scout/Heavy/Logi/ADS pilot for hire (free) in PC
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1635	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:33:00 - [280] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You can barely fit an adv cloak at proto level as it is with two damps. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. Yep So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium? These changes allow minmatar to do what they do best, knife, speed tank, hack without them being able to go so overboard that they become a new problem. "I've made a huge mistake." -G.O.B. Bluth

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3180	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:37:00 - [281] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You can barely fit an adv cloak at proto level as it is with two damps. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. PLEASE FFS get on comms with me. The idea that the end all be all of being undetected is 2 complex damps is just STUPID easy and makes active scanners a joke, in addition to making all assaults that can't be unscannable AND logi's not worth it in competitive play outside of min for the rep and maybe Amarr AFTER they find a way for the bonus to still apply after death. Because if it's so easy to be completely unscannable everyone will do it and the other roles are obsolete in comparison. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Starfire Revo Inner.Hell 284	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:40:00 - [282] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium? Minmatar are great up close assassins. Their high base melee and movement speed would be amazing if they could capitalize on it more. They also bring great utility in the form of their better base hacking speed, which is further improved by their hacking bonus. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2569	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:42:00 - [283] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: MM 5% per level to Nova Knife Damage and Codebreakers efficacy AM Increase base Stamina/Stamina Regeneration. Add relevant, debatable scout skills CA 3% per level to efficacy of Precision Enhancers GA 3% per level to efficacy of Range Amplifiers Scout -15% CPU/PG per level to cloak. 5% per level to efficacy of Profile Dampeners Change Duvolle Focused Active Scanner to 5 second duration, 15 second cooldown, 24 dB Do you have a Mathpia chart on this You have my interest in thisGÇª but you know my math skillsGÇª yes and no. I'm mostly just throwing ideas out. they're more me being facetious than serious. Which is just the level I want to humor myself. But I do have the number chart for those Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1588	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:43:00 - [284] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You can barely fit an adv cloak at proto level as it is with two damps. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. Yep So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium? These changes allow minmatar to do what they do best, knife, speed tank, hack without them being able to go so overboard that they become a new problem. They must have a role in the current equilibrium right? Without any changes. PC is almost exclusively GA and CA scouts. How does that compute? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Ghost Kaisar The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 4866	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:44:00 - [285] - Quote Starfire Revo wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium? Minmatar are great up close assassins. Their high base melee and movement speed would be amazing if they could capitalize on it more. They also bring great utility in the form of their better base hacking speed, which is further improved by their hacking bonus. It's so hard for the Min to use these bonuses. If they Melee tank, they lose the ability to have health, which is vital in CQC. Speed tanking costs you your dampening, and it is INSANE on PG costs. 2x Speed costs 30 PG, which is more than 1/3 of our total PG off of two slots. Headed to Destiny, To Hell with CCP PSN: EVL_Elgost105 RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
Derrith Erador The Last of DusT. 1907	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:44:00 - [286] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You can barely fit an adv cloak at proto level as it is with two damps. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. Yep So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium? NONONONONONONONONONONONO Giving all scouts EZ mode unscannable is stupid and broken You need to take the middle road and not fanatics who honestly wouldn't complain if all scouts just came unscannable and cloaks remained 90 seconds and all slots are available to use for other things. This is absolutely ludicrous. Making scouts ez mode is very unclutch, don't be doin' it CCP!! Seriously, though, that shouldn't happen, ever. Betty White, the worlds hottest grandma.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 1075	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:47:00 - [287] - Quote - From a Scouts view In my opinion the fact the the Gallente scout is the only viable PC scout is a major blow to the other 3 Balancing this is essential as all scouts should perform a stealth role not just Gallente.... That's what they are there for, cloaking and being undetected.... Slaying quietly, picking off lone infantry A rough theory on Scout Db ratings - Right Here!! One other CCP overlook is HP totals on Light Suit.... 500 HP Should be max tank on a Light suit Anymore defeats the purpose of it being a Light suit, and let's it be a medium which should not happen There is a list of ways CCP can fix this, all I care about is seeing more than one scout be a PC option 'D1CK by name' 'D1CK by nature'
Orion Sanjeet The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 84	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:47:00 - [288] - Quote Words cannot describe how much I am against scouts being made even harder to kill. I'm here to drop links and rep bitches, and I'm just about outta links.
Grimmiers 565	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:48:00 - [289] - Quote Scouts might have been easier to balance if there were more factors that affected your db. Things like sprinting and shooting should increase your db temporarily which would make playing a sneaky scout harder, but more rewarding than it currently is. You could give the amarr and minmatar their own added benefits to make them harder to find in a battle situation. The minmatar would have less db while sprinting and the amarr would have less db shooting. This would offset the caldari and the gallente being purely focused on scanning and profile. The db increase when using sidearms would be much less than using light weapons so stealthy scouts would avoid using shotguns and combat rifles if they want to stay hidden. Also if you're thinking about weapon attachments in legion, silencers would be very useful for keeping a low db with this mechanic.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3181	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:50:00 - [290] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: They must have a role in the current equilibrium right? Without any changes. PC is almost exclusively GA and CA scouts. How does that compute? Because cal are used to keep the other team using gal. The problem is cal are used because passive scans are OP vs active scans thus everyone uses cal scout to pick up everyone except anyone that's unscannable. they use gal cause 3 amror reps, more speedy than amarr, and it only takes 1 damp + cloak meaning all the rest can be used. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

Starfire Revo Inner.Hell 284	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:53:00 - [291] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Starfire Revo wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium? Minmatar are great up close assassins. Their high base melee and movement speed would be amazing if they could capitalize on it more. They also bring great utility in the form of their better base hacking speed, which is further improved by their hacking bonus. It's so hard for the Min to use these bonuses. If they Melee tank, they lose the ability to have health, which is vital in CQC. Speed tanking costs you your dampening, and it is INSANE on PG costs. 2x Speed costs 30 PG, which is more than 1/3 of our total PG off of two slots. Hence my earlier suggestion to change knives to Biotics, you could get the melee damage you need while getting an extender and a plate. This all relies on squad vision being removed or Cal scouts losing their precision bonus though. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3181	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:57:00 - [292] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Llast 326 wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: MM 5% per level to Nova Knife Damage and Codebreakers efficacy AM Increase base Stamina/Stamina Regeneration. Add relevant, debatable scout skills CA 3% per level to efficacy of Precision Enhancers GA 3% per level to efficacy of Range Amplifiers Scout -15% CPU/PG per level to cloak. 5% per level to efficacy of Profile Dampeners Change Duvolle Focused Active Scanner to 5 second duration, 15 second cooldown, 24 dB Do you have a Mathpia chart on this You have my interest in thisGÇª but you know my math skillsGÇª yes and no. I'm mostly just throwing ideas out. they're more me being facetious than serious. Which is just the level I want to humor myself. But I do have the number chart for those I REALLY hope this is mostly facetiousness because believing you and moody want to make scout even more OP by making all of them unscannable at 3 damps is so mind blowing I almost had a brain aneurism mixed with an attack of apoplexy. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1588	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:58:00 - [293] - Quote Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening beats the highest possible by GA logis "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2570	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:06:00 - [294] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: One Eyed King wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You can barely fit an adv cloak at proto level as it is with two damps. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. Yep So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium? These changes allow minmatar to do what they do best, knife, speed tank, hack without them being able to go so overboard that they become a new problem. They must have a role in the current equilibrium right? Without any changes. PC is almost exclusively GA and CA scouts. How does that compute? They really don't. The Minmatar has the flavor role of playing with Nova Knives. Without that bonus the weapon really isn;t any good. And the Nova Knives also gravitate to the fastest suit to be most effective. But to use the Alpha-damage weapons, such as Nova Knives, you need to have the element of surprise. Hacking bonus is great and all, but it loses out if the speed hacker can't stay undetected. People loved the Min-Logi for the bonus but you needed to go in with a team to make use of its effectiveness. If the Minmatar Scout can be detected by any scanners and still does not have 1 low slot free for a Codebreaker module than the Gallente Scout will out-preform the suit in that role of Scout-Hacker with 2 dampeners and 2 codebreakers vs 3 dampeners and skill bonus. So as it stands in the 0/2/5 concept of dampening on cloaks... the numbers are too low to be meaningful. Instead of providing the game with some balance you took away a role from another suit. To have any meaningful role on the battlefield the Minmatar Scout needs to overcome Cal-Scout or Gal-Logi Focues Scanner so they can approach an objective undetected. To have a finesse role they need to keep their dampening below detection until they make the first strike with Nova Knives. As it stands, using the Cloak Field as an Active Dampener has the trade-off of moving undetected (Electronically, as you're an obvious blue, glowing outline and not invisible visually at all). But to make an aggressive action you need to lose that dampening bonus and become noticeable. * the problem here is the decloak is too fast* It'd be nice to see if the dampening bonus was increased to 10% because then the Minmatar Scout could dedicate all three low slots to profile dampening and avoid scans... but as I said, it then loses out on the ability to be a scout hacker if it has to choose between the approach to the console vs speed of hacking the console. Too many of the Scout-dependent items are Low-Slot items. As an EVE vet I know they wanted to maintain a parallel of slot designation but when it's precision enhancers up high and range amps, dampeners, codebreakers, kincats, and CardRegs in the low slot the Gallente will be the best choice because it has the advantage of stealth over the amarr and equal number of low slots. The best, most honest solution I have, is move Codebreakers to the high-slot and reduce dampening bonus from 25% at each level to 10% at each level. The Amarr on the other hand is a whole different can of worms. They have nothing Scout-like about them that sperates them from other scouts. I've said I find them to be the best all-round suit but they don't have a specialization and that's something that needs to be added. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2570	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:08:00 - [295] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk FFS, no. do not make a bonus of any scout effect cloaks other than the racial one of fitting reduction Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3181	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:10:00 - [296] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit The highest possible dampening fit should take a metric **** ton of fitting to get under a gal logi focused and the focused needs to be the end all be all of scanning because it's active and involves other factors, not passive 360 stupid scans. All you REALLY need to do is put a bandaid on this until you can revisit the entire e-war situation. The way to do that is by keeping min scouts unscannable by making the proto cloak have 10% damp until later when you can COMPLETELY rid the cloak of a module bonus. Appia ran the math and it works. Then you don't need to rid the gal scout of it's bonus, maybe just kill it's range bonus in addition to killing the cal range bonus. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Starfire Revo Inner.Hell 284	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:11:00 - [297] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced If this isn't a precision change, then only suits with 3x proto damps and a 10% cloak will be viable. I'm curious as to whether other scouts will be viable after these changes. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1589	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:12:00 - [298] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk FFS, no. do not make a bonus of any scout effect cloaks other than the racial one of fitting reduction Do you really think this sort of debate impresses anyone? Tsk, tsk. So reducing/removing the GA dampening bonus is a viable way. Good to know. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1589	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:14:00 - [299] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit The highest possible dampening fit should take a metric **** ton of fitting to get under a gal logi focused and the focused needs to be the end all be all of scanning because it's active and involves other factors, not passive 360 stupid scans. All you REALLY need to do is put a bandaid on this until you can revisit the entire e-war situation. The way to do that is by keeping min scouts unscannable by making the proto cloak have 10% damp until later when you can COMPLETELY rid the cloak of a module bonus. Appia ran the math and it works. Then you don't need to rid the gal scout of it's bonus, maybe just kill it's range bonus in addition to killing the cal range bonus. Sounds reasonable enough. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:17:00 - [300] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit Ok what your saying is that change the dampening bonus to duration for gallente. What. Few days before since of the release of this so called hot fix alpha through statistics gallente scout was OP. NOW the caldari scout is OP. I mean with scan range reduced a Caldari Scout could scan every fricken dropsuit in the game, including a gallente logi with 4 different proto scans(Nyain San) Just equip one complex range amplifier and there is no problem. What's reality in the days to come, look behind you, a shotgun to your face by a caldari scout. Why? Cause he scanned you first your dead. In my opinion the minmatar scout would be the worst option for a scout. Rethink this, because one affects all. Blaze

Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2571	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:21:00 - [301] - Quote I'd like now to give CCP Rattati the epitaph of Slayer-Logi Savior The Duvole Focused Active Scanner has a fitting cost of 38 CPU and 18 PG... Oh wait. Sorry. -25% for Logistics. 29CPU and 14PG The Ishukone Cloak Field, to which all cloak fields are is active dampeners with some visual flare, costs 83 CPU and and 18 PG on a level 5 Scout. Yep. That single equipment slot that has a very difficult time fitting in a suit clearly needs to be the be-all end-all of precision. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3181	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:23:00 - [302] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit Down the Road: Quote: LATER you need to give the min a base hack bonus of 1.25 so that while undetected it's still a super fast hacker and isn't outclassed by the gal when it attempts to fill it's role due to the gal being 2 modules worth of difference better when attempting to be undetectable. e-war needs to be balanced around all scouts being feasibly damped to a point like this: it doesn't tell you how to get there, just tells you what the end product need to be: Minmatar scouts should take 2 complex damps to get under all but a cal scout with 3 complex precision or a dude using a regular focused scanner (2 complex 1 enhanced), and require 3 complex to get under a cal scout using 4 complex precision. Gal logi using focused scanners should be able to pick it up for the 5 second duration assuming you are in the radius and range. Amarr should be the same except 4 complex should get you under a gal logi using a focused. Gallente should be the same except require one less damp. Cal should be limited by their 2 low slots and thus would only be immune to all but a regular focused, gal focused, and other cal scouts. No real thoughts on balancing medium's using precisions except a 1 to 1 ratio vs other mediums. I also refrained from commenting on scouts precision outside of cal scout, which is why this may all be flawed. Who knows i'm tired. Night. I absolutely think a dude specced into gal logi for the scan bonus and using a piece of equipment that only lights you up for 5 seconds should be the end all be all at counterplay to dampening. and that it should take an arm and a leg for scouts to get under a 4 precision cal scout, and give you pause when considering if it's worth it to get under a gal logi trying to pick you up with a focused. Only change i haven't put back in here is the idea that appia and i agreed on about min/maxing min being able to use 3 complex damps to get under a gal focused. I just has on the fence about making min not completely unscannable my gal logi focused that way it doesn't get caught in the trap of having to compete with being the best hacker while being undetectable and just let it be the best hacker period while being mostly unscannable in the endgame. thus 3 damps by amarr and 3 damps (but perhaps a basic instead of the complex) by a gal are required to get under the min/maxing of a gal logi focused scanner. If you don't take an arm and a leg to get this massive advantage, then everyone will do it. ALSO, later on if we could have a discussion about how to UNCHAIN the premise that cloaking needs dampening it'd be even better and the idea Appia came up with about cloaking making your direction on chevron disappear when cloaked is absolutely brilliant and worth considering. She just comes off like an idiot when she types I promise, but when she has a conduit who can put up with her unique personality she has a REALLY potent capacity to contribute. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2574	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:34:00 - [303] - Quote The Amarr Assault is down a slot The Caldari and Gallente Assaults have bonuses that are ill-fitting and limiting to just racial weapons The Minmatar Assault still has the odd layout and is still CPU/PG starved. And there is too much overlap between the role of an Assault and the role of Commando. The Base HP between Light and Medium is not that great after multiple HP modules are added to both suits simultaneously in equal numbers. The Gallente Scout is overly attractive because it has the highest base repair rate, much like the Logi was the most desirable frame before because it has a repair rate of 5hp/s. 1hp/s gives it flavor. 3hp/sec gives it utility. Why, oh why, would people flock to scouts when Assault suits look so desirable. You pointed out that Cirius Li-Moody was vocal about the changes. And for some reason you think an inconsequential 2 and 5% bonus on cloaks is a compromise. Now you come around and say, "Gallente looks OP. They should be nerfed as well" Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1600	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:53:00 - [304] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: The Amarr Assault is down a slot The Caldari and Gallente Assaults have bonuses that are ill-fitting and limiting to just racial weapons The Minmatar Assault still has the odd layout and is still CPU/PG starved. And there is too much overlap between the role of an Assault and the role of Commando. The Base HP between Light and Medium is not that great after multiple HP modules are added to both suits simultaneously in equal numbers. The Gallente Scout is overly attractive because it has the highest base repair rate, much like the Logi was the most desirable frame before because it has a repair rate of 5hp/s. 1hp/s gives it flavor. 3hp/sec gives it utility. Why, oh why, would people flock to scouts when Assault suits look so desirable. You pointed out that Cirius Li-Moody was vocal about the changes. And for some reason you think an inconsequential 2 and 5% bonus on cloaks is a compromise. Now you come around and say, "Gallente looks OP. They should be nerfed as well" We always knew it was OP, mentioned in several threads. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1192	Posted - 2014.05.24 03:32:00 - [305] - Quote My 2c, as a bandaid fix. Reduce the Gal dampening bonus to 2% a level. Reduce the Cal precision bonus to 2% a level. Remove the scan radius bonus from the Gal and Cal. Gift the Amarr with the scan radius bonus, 5% a level. Leave Minmatar as is, until a full balance pass can be made. With the changes to cloak, plates, and limitations on the Gal dampening, they will be more visable, and will have to give up lows to be truely passively invisible to other scouts. Cal precision is reduced so is not all encompasing, and removal of the range bonus means that they only have a limited radius in which they are able to scan. They can still stack precision, but only over a limited range, as they lack the lows to stack range amps without being glass. Amarr gets a meaningful bonus that plays to their strenghts (light assault) as they will be able to view all medium and heavy suits, but are unable to stack precision to find scouts. Min is ok at the moment, as their balanced slot layout allows them to chose either passive invisibility or vision. Knowledge is power
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 66	Posted - 2014.05.24 03:32:00 - [306] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: The Amarr Assault is down a slot The Caldari and Gallente Assaults have bonuses that are ill-fitting and limiting to just racial weapons The Minmatar Assault still has the odd layout and is still CPU/PG starved. And there is too much overlap between the role of an Assault and the role of Commando. The Base HP between Light and Medium is not that great after multiple HP modules are added to both suits simultaneously in equal numbers. The Gallente Scout is overly attractive because it has the highest base repair rate, much like the Logi was the most desirable frame before because it has a repair rate of 5hp/s. 1hp/s gives it flavor. 3hp/sec gives it utility. Why, oh why, would people flock to scouts when Assault suits look so desirable. You pointed out that Cirius Li-Moody was vocal about the changes. And for some reason you think an inconsequential 2 and 5% bonus on cloaks is a compromise. Now you come around and say, "Gallente looks OP. They should be nerfed as well" the 2 and 5% bonus will allow amarr and gallente SPECIALIZED in dampening/cloak to beat all scans when using 4x complex dampeners. balanced vs a proto gal logi SPECIALZED in active scanners and cal scout SPECIALIZED in precision using 4x complex precision. Now on to the removal/trade of gallente dampening bonus. Can I (LOL) have a 2% hybrid-plasma weapon range bonus so I can make my TAC-AR competitive vs the range of the rail rifle/combat rifle/scrambler rifle since i'm going to be dead in .5 sec once I start shooting in the AR range. sarcastic but real example of what I would want.
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 66	Posted - 2014.05.24 04:13:00 - [307] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. If by noone you mean NOONE (scout, logi, assault, etc) then. YES YES YES. Making cpu/pg extenders useful/needed farther balancing everything armor tanked. I think i'm starting to see how shield tanking is going to work itself out from the other tweaks. my ar is looking better and better too. Guess its time to start leveling AR optimization that was useless before. Like the way the SPECIALIZATION is being rewarded even though at great costs.
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2584	Posted - 2014.05.24 04:17:00 - [308] - Quote 24CPU, 14PG, 1 EQ slot vs 215CPU, 19 PG, 1 EQ slot and 4 Low slots. yep. Gallente Logistics are SPECIALIZE, with capitalization even. 1 low cost active modules can only be avoided by 4 low slots costing 33 CPU each and an active equipment slot that takes 87 CPU and 18 PG. Totally comparable. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 974	Posted - 2014.05.24 04:25:00 - [309] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit Suggestion: Lvl(5) Scout+ 2 Cmp damps + proto cloak (on) = unscannable Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3185	Posted - 2014.05.24 04:28:00 - [310] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit Suggestion: Lvl(5) Scout+ 2 Cmp damps + proto cloak (on) = unscannable Completely disagree and by doing this you make Scouts OP. This negates counterplay and allows them to accomplish 2 much with 2 little. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 66	Posted - 2014.05.24 04:29:00 - [311] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: 24CPU, 14PG, 1 EQ slot vs 215CPU, 19 PG, 1 EQ slot and 4 Low slots. yep. Gallente Logistics are SPECIALIZE, with capitalization even. 1 low cost active modules can only be avoided by 4 low slots costing 33 CPU each and an active equipment slot that takes 87 CPU and 18 PG. Totally comparable. short scan in one direction with hefty delay vs full tac-net invisability. yeah sounds balanced to me being fully tac-net invisible should come at a greater cost because there is no counter. now if your going to argue logi with 4 scanners to produce a 360 short scan with hefty delays. and even if that don't make you happy then Xx-VxF-xX wrote: [quote=CCP Rattati] Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3185	Posted - 2014.05.24 04:30:00 - [312] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: 24CPU, 14PG, 1 EQ slot vs 215CPU, 19 PG, 1 EQ slot and 4 Low slots. yep. Gallente Logistics are SPECIALIZE, with capitalization even. 1 low cost active modules can only be avoided by 4 low slots costing 33 CPU each and an active equipment slot that takes 87 CPU and 18 PG. Totally comparable. So yeah let's swap to the other side of the pendulum where all scouts are now OP and not just the gal. facepalm CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Oswald Rehnquist 1421	Posted - 2014.05.24 04:38:00 - [313] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit Considering that I thought the topic was dead, its good to hear that its still in the works even after this patch. If these are the changes, I'll provide something that works with this above. Assuming that the underline is true (except for cal which is fine, less so for min), then I will say that I am relieved for the most part. And While I am still extremely caution about changing the system, there might be something in what you guys are doing, hopefully getting it to a good place on the next patch cycle. Obviously this does not included the cal which is fine, but I don't think the Min scout fits in with that statement though (I'll need to do the math), in which case, the min scout is going to need something, though I'll touch upon them later. Cal Scouts Since you mentioned range and not precision changes, your going with a high precision low range aspect for balancing the Cal scout, should be interesting to say the least. Cal scouts aren't going to put on damps (very rarely at any rate), in which case I'm assuming you want to encourage them to run range amplifiers instead of plates, which is why you are cutting their scanning range. To really encourage that though, I'd suggest dropping it down to 15 m at least. One complex amplifier gets you something like 22 m and another one gets you around 30 m. While one range amp will be common, two will be relatively rare, but are mainly there to reveal other scouts in a particular area, and less so for scanning wide ranges. Min Scout I'm pretty sure the min scout isn't fitting into this quite so nicely by not being able to dodge the scan, in which case I do think they need a buff. Particularly more utility. I'm not as well versed on what the min needs in particular, I know speed used to be an extremely important scout trait (it got nerfed). But in the Min Scouts case it would help getting to points faster and catching targets faster with the knife/gun. Again, not the expect on what is needed here, I just know something is needed. Ama Scout Will probably be the most interesting change wise, assuming its still getting the 3 regen from the gal scout, the Amarr scout will be the premier battle scout, using its slightly better fitting options to tank, but how will that stack to with the tanking mod nerf? Again will be interesting to see. Gal Scouts If the gal scout damp is changing to a duration bonus, that puts extreme dependence on the cloak which is getting nerfed. I'd might consider the gal scout getting its scan range bonus increased. Assuming the cal scout is meant for specific sweeps of scouts, the gal scout could be the wider beacon for the other suits once scouts v assaults get balanced. My $.02 at any rate, if this is what is happening. Congrats on keeping the dialog going Below 28 dB
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 974	Posted - 2014.05.24 04:39:00 - [314] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit Suggestion: Lvl(5) Scout+ 2 Cmp damps + proto cloak (on) = unscannable Completely disagree and by doing this you make Scouts OP. This negates counterplay and allows them to accomplish 2 much with 2 little. Exceptions: CalScout w/ 4 cmp precision GalLogi w/ focused AS Response: Bullish, Zatara. Build for me a single OP Scout with 2 lows dedicated to Damps. Note that cloak cycles quickly, so this beast of yours will be vulnerable to scan more often than not. Go. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 387	Posted - 2014.05.24 04:47:00 - [315] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We are still open to simple suggestions. Most of what I read here is "do you even PC scout bro" and "you have to completely redesign the whole ewar/scout ethos". We are not going to do that. We already changed the proposal to have a progression in dampening: STD/ADV/PRO 0%/2.5%/5.0%. It seems to me that reducing the dampening bonus of the GA scout, or changing it to duration can level the scouts viability. And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others split the 50%. Cyrius Li Moody, as the most vocal opponent, and the rest of you as well :). Do you want to contribute and propose a simple change to the scouts, which was the purpose of this thread. In this form with fake examples. MM f.ex. run speed % AM f.ex. ehp bonus % CA is fine GA f.ex. reduce dampening bonus % Take away Gallente bonus to dampening. Make it a Scout skill instead. Take away Caldari bonus to Range to equal the two suits out. MM Nova Knife and Hacking AM Stamina and stealth uplink deployment CA Precision Bonus GA Range Bonus Scout -15% CPU/PG per level to cloak. -5% to profile Looks really good, Appia. The only thing I'd change is AM as stealth ULS are likely not possible. Scout - Cloak + Damp MM - NK + Hack AM - Biotics CA - Precision GA - Range * 2 Cmp damp + cloaked = unscannable @ Rattati Most of those GalScouts are mercs waiting for better Assaults. The number will drop when we get a new slayer suit. ^^^^this. give the assaults an actual slaying bonus Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 387	Posted - 2014.05.24 04:58:00 - [316] - Quote hell just giving them the same slot count as logi's would be a good start. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1155	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:11:00 - [317] - Quote Wowzer. Ok the main reason gal is used 50% of the time is because of its low slots, innate repair and ability to remain off the radar.; all the while maintaining a large hp pool. It's basically able to have cake and eat it too. Other scouts really have to sacrafice a great deal to perform their roles well. If you remove the current balance there won't be an ewar battle. Having a really powerful scan range out to a max of 30m is basically useless, 30m won't give you any notice of a threat before it's too late. You won't have cal scouts running anything but hp mods again. A small nerf sure, but anything less than about 40m provides no real benefit. Honestly the proposed changes won't do a damn thing to change the fact gal scouts as the primary scout in PC. Their ability to remain hidden is not the sole reason they are used. Again gal scouts have a lot of PROs and the other scouts are just plain outclassed by it. Zatara hit it on the head when he said people run cal to force the other team to run damp gal scouts. That's a working system in my book. As far as the various roles of the different scouts, not all scouts should be unscannable. I think it should remain a special role for gal scouts. If you want to remain hidden that's the scout you play, want to run and knife people use the Minnie. Want to provide over watch for your team run cal. Youtube
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3185	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:14:00 - [318] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit Suggestion: Lvl(5) Scout+ 2 Cmp damps + proto cloak (on) = unscannable Completely disagree and by doing this you make Scouts OP. This negates counterplay and allows them to accomplish 2 much with 2 little. Exceptions: CalScout w/ 4 cmp precision GalLogi w/ focused AS Response: Bullish, Zatara. Build for me a single OP Scout with 2 lows dedicated to Damps. Note that cloak cycles quickly, so this beast of yours will be vulnerable to scan more often than not. Go. see that makes a huge diff. If you balance so a gal scout needs a 2 complex and 1 basic and min/amarr need 3 complex to get under the gal logi focused. THEN it's gonna be way better for all, active scanner will be useful, and we all win. But you NEED to make it an arm and a leg, scouts should give pause to the idea of choosing the diff between being highly unscannable getting below a cal, and ultimately giving a ton of pause before choosing to fit 3 damps to negate the end all be all gal logi 5 second scan. Balancing for the min maxing is a prerequisite, and those exceptions give me hope you understand that. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1155	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:23:00 - [319] - Quote Zatara, if it's that difficult to stay hidden they simply won't do it. They will instead fit plates. It homogenizes the battlefield when things get to difficult to counter. Youtube

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1615	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:26:00 - [320] - Quote Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. Here is the premise 1) I want to encourage stealth players to go to proto cloak 2) GA scout will be the only scout that is completely unscannable 3) Not let GA scouts be the only stealth scouts and use cloaks So, I have been told, I can verify when I am back at work, that if we change the cloak to be at 10% dampening instead of 5% at PRO, at least 3 stealth scouts are viable with cloak, GA, CA and MM. I think that's fine, I don't think everyone should be equally good at everthing. Amarr will get a look soon. Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terrible close to 16. Since I want the only thing to beat the 100% dedicated scout scanner to be a 100% dedicated stealth scout. A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. That means we can reduce the GA Scout bonus to 15% to 25% and still stay under the CA scout at 15.3 or 16dB. Thereby forcing the dedicate GA scout to sacrifice a low in most cases, so that he can't spend it on armor. For the coup de grace, we can reduce the range of the CA passive scan a little bit because it's unnecessarily good. Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


THUNDERGROOVE The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 815	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:26:00 - [321] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Zatara, if it's that difficult to stay hidden they simply won't do it. They will instead fit plates. It homogenizes the battlefield when things get to difficult to counter. I have to agree here. Currently I will not fit damps. The sacrafice in HP/Speed/scan range/Recoverability is too high for Amarr. Why be invisible if I only have 212 armor, no reps, no range and no CPU? TDBS Fight heavy spam with plasma cannons!
THUNDERGROOVE The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 815	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:29:00 - [322] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: --snip-- Hi, your proposals sounds fine, but you have to understand two slots isn't much for a suit that gets two free low slot modules worth of bonuses/innate suit properties. This "sacrafice" is what the other scouts already have to do with their low slots if they want to avoid scans of any kind and be self sufficient. TDBS Fight heavy spam with plasma cannons!
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 387	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:29:00 - [323] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. Here is the premise 1) I want to encourage stealth players to go to proto cloak 2) GA scout will be the only scout that is completely unscannable 3) Not let GA scouts be the only stealth scouts and use cloaks So, I have been told, I can verify when I am back at work, that if we change the cloak to be at 10% dampening instead of 5% at PRO, at least 3 stealth scouts are viable with cloak, GA, CA and MM. I think that's fine, I don't think everyone should be equally good at everthing. Amarr will get a look soon. Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terrible close to 16. Since I want the only thing to beat the 100% dedicated scout scanner to be a 100% dedicated stealth scout. A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. That means we can reduce the GA Scout bonus to 15% to 25% and still stay under the CA scout at 15.3 or 16dB. Thereby forcing the dedicate GA scout to sacrifice a low in most cases, so that he can't spend it on armor. For the coup de grace, we can reduce the range of the CA passive scan a little bit because it's unnecessarily good. Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. +1 Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1618	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:30:00 - [324] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: --snip-- Hi, your proposals sounds fine, but you have to understand two slots isn't much for a suit that gets two free low slot modules worth of bonuses/innate suit properties. This "sacrafice" is what the other scouts already have to do with their low slots. I am fine if we reduce the two free slots to one, at least to begin with. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1156	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:32:00 - [325] - Quote Rattati read my post above yours. Basically states answers to your current changes. Why should a scout sacrifice their ENTIRE fitting just to remain hidden from a single piece if equipment. Youtube
THUNDERGROOVE The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 815	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:36:00 - [326] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Amarr gets a meaningful bonus that plays to their strenghts (light assault) as they will be able to view all medium and heavy suits, but are unable to stack precision to find scouts. This is completely untrue. The Amarr can passive scan Min/Amarr/Cal cloaked and undamped currently with one advanced precision enhancer. The suit would be nice as an EWAR suit but it doesn't have the CPU. TDBS Fight heavy spam with plasma cannons!
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3186	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:36:00 - [327] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Zatara, if it's that difficult to stay hidden they simply won't do it. They will instead fit plates. It homogenizes the battlefield when things get to difficult to counter. a slot is a slot is a slot, doesn't matter if it takes a complex or a basic. Three slots and a piece of equipment is too much. Dedicating 4 slots and 4x the PG/CPU to beat a single equipment is too much, No it'll force people to sepcialize fits. SO on the extreme end those who have a phobia will choose to fit it so it can't be scanned. Those who want to be be mostly unscannable except to specialist like the quad cal and gal focused can do that and have more fitting space. And those who only want to be minimum or no cloaked will do this. But you need to choose, and not get your cake and eat it as well. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1618	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:37:00 - [328] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Rattati read my post above yours. Basically states answers to your current changes. Why should a scout sacrifice their ENTIRE fitting just to remain hidden from a single piece if equipment. To not have his cake and eat it too. The CA scout decided to specialize and sacrifice their whole fit to find scouts. The GA scout decided to specialize and sacrifice their whole fit to escape all scanning. Not to mention, it is not his entire fitting, there is a high and a low slot available if I am not mistaken. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

THUNDERGROOVE The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 815	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:40:00 - [329] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I am fine if we reduce the two free slots to one, at least to begin with. So removing the innate 3 hp/s? TDBS Fight heavy spam with plasma cannons!
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1156	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:41:00 - [330] - Quote But a gal logi only needs to fit a single piece of equipment that costs them very little. Honestly, you won't get any gal scouts attempting to remain hidden. They will just brick tank instead. 4 slots(3 damps and an active pro cloak) to counter a single piece of equipment. It just sounds ridiculous. Seriously, no one will do it Youtube

Garth Mandra The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 392	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:48:00 - [331] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. Here is the premise 1) I want to encourage stealth players to go to proto cloak 2) GA scout will be the only scout that is completely unscannable 3) Not let GA scouts be the only stealth scouts and use cloaks So, I have been told, I can verify when I am back at work, that if we change the cloak to be at 10% dampening instead of 5% at PRO, at least 3 stealth scouts are viable with cloak, GA, CA and MM. I think that's fine, I don't think everyone should be equally good at everthing. Amarr will get a look soon. Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terribly close to 16. Since I want the only thing to beat the 100% dedicated scout scanner to be a 100% dedicated stealth scout. A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. That means we can reduce the GA Scout bonus to 15% from 25% and still stay under the CA scout at 15.3 or 16dB. Thereby forcing the dedicate GA scout to sacrifice a low in most cases, so that he can't spend it on armor. For the coup de grace, we can reduce the range of the CA passive scan a little bit because it's unnecessarily good. Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. Sounds reasonable to me. From what I can see the base case for scouts is TACNET invisibility. An unfitted scout cannot see another unfitted scout. So it seems reasonable to give the Gal the edge over the Cal for the same amount of effort. Not to mention the fact that passive scans are shared (which is good for squad play and synergy IMO). I want to see battles where scouts go "Ooh I didn't see him coming I better spawn with more precision. Ah there he is!" followed by the opponent going "Damn! He spotted me. Time for more damps."

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1619	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:52:00 - [332] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I am fine if we reduce the two free slots to one, at least to begin with. So removing the innate 3 hp/s? or reducing it. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:55:00 - [333] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I am fine if we reduce the two free slots to one, at least to begin with. So removing the innate 3 hp/s? or reducing it. Anything less than 3 is completely useless See gallente sentinel. Closed beta vet.
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1158	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:58:00 - [334] - Quote Why not make it so scouts are only immune to active scanners when cloak is applied? Each cloak meta works on the same meta and below as the scanner. So pro cloak hides pro scans, adv cloak adv scans. You would get the same effect but at least it's tit for tat in terms of slots needed. Cloak works independent of active scans, so if a gal scout wants to remain hidden from cal scout they need to sacrifice as much as cal scout did to notice them, Youtube
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3186	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:04:00 - [335] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. Here is the premise 1) I want to encourage stealth players to go to proto cloak 2) GA scout will be the only scout that is completely unscannable 3) Not let GA scouts be the only stealth scouts and use cloaks So, I have been told, I can verify when I am back at work, that if we change the cloak to be at 10% dampening instead of 5% at PRO, at least 3 stealth scouts are viable with cloak, GA, CA and MM. I think that's fine, I don't think everyone should be equally good at everthing. Amarr will get a look soon. Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terribly close to 16. Since I want the only thing to beat the 100% dedicated scout scanner to be a 100% dedicated stealth scout. A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. That means we can reduce the GA Scout bonus to 15% from 25% and still stay under the CA scout at 15.3 or 16dB. Thereby forcing the dedicate GA scout to sacrifice a low in most cases, so that he can't spend it on armor. For the coup de grace, we can reduce the range of the CA passive scan a little bit because it's unnecessarily good. Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. I dunno if it's just cause it's late here but I think there's a slight bit of tension in the statements. Namely, according to the math i was given, cause i'm lazy, Cal quad precision is like 14.91 I think, sadly it's BETTER than the active gal logi focused, which it shouldn't be. But that's not the part in tension that's just a potential flaw on someones maths. The tension is between the statements of wanting only the gal to be able to beat min maxed scans and the 10% proto damp buff. I suggested the 10% to proto as a bandaid until you could fix e-war because it allows min and amarr to get under all scans. See the tension? I'm tired if there's not any and apologize. Holy mother of god I love you and logic has been dropped on this thread. Make sure to remove it from the gal as well, they both get the range buff. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Feedeesex Venezuela CORP ELITE Caps and Mercs 80	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:04:00 - [336] - Quote The scouts are OP by the cloak, remove the cloak and escout will be before 1.8 were scouts. sorry 4 my english im from Argentina.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3186	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:05:00 - [337] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: Sounds reasonable to me. From what I can see the base case for scouts is TACNET invisibility. An unfitted scout cannot see another unfitted scout. So it seems reasonable to give the Gal the edge over the Cal for the same amount of effort. Not to mention the fact that passive scans are shared (which is good for squad play and synergy IMO). I want to see battles where scouts go "Ooh I didn't see him coming I better spawn with more precision. Ah there he is!" followed by the opponent going "Damn! He spotted me. Time for more damps." This guy gets counter play. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3186	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:08:00 - [338] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: But a gal logi only needs to fit a single piece of equipment that costs them very little. Honestly, you won't get any gal scouts attempting to remain hidden. They will just brick tank instead. 4 slots(3 damps and an active pro cloak) to counter a single piece of equipment. It just sounds ridiculous. Seriously, no one will do it If the difference is getting a hack off or clearing those links on the perimeter without alerting anyone, they most definitely will. Those who choose to, will. But it will be a choice, and not an afterthought. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:10:00 - [339] - Quote Sacrificing all your slots for one equipment is ******** and un balanced Closed beta vet.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1619	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:15:00 - [340] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. CCP Rattati - snip Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. I dunno if it's just cause it's late here but I think there's a slight bit of tension in the statements. -snip- I am sorry, I honestly can not understand what you are trying to say. On that note but not towards you specifically, I would frankly prefer that all emotion would just be removed as much as possible out of the feedback threads and just have a logical conversation. Otherwise this won't work as intended. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1619	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:17:00 - [341] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. Here is the premise 1) I want to encourage stealth players to go to proto cloak 2) GA scout will be the only scout that is completely unscannable 3) Not let GA scouts be the only stealth scouts and use cloaks So, I have been told, I can verify when I am back at work, that if we change the cloak to be at 10% dampening instead of 5% at PRO, at least 3 stealth scouts are viable with cloak, GA, CA and MM. I think that's fine, I don't think everyone should be equally good at everthing. Amarr will get a look soon. Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terribly close to 16. Since I want the only thing to beat the 100% dedicated scout scanner to be a 100% dedicated stealth scout. A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. That means we can reduce the GA Scout bonus to 15% from 25% and still stay under the CA scout at 15.3 or 16dB. Thereby forcing the dedicate GA scout to sacrifice a low in most cases, so that he can't spend it on armor. For the coup de grace, we can reduce the range of the CA passive scan a little bit because it's unnecessarily good. Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. I dunno if it's just cause it's late here but I think there's a slight bit of tension in the statements. Namely, according to the math i was given, cause i'm lazy, Cal quad precision is like 14.91 I think, sadly it's equal to the active gal logi focused, which it shouldn't be. But that's not the part in tension that's just a potential flaw on someones maths. The tension is between the statements of wanting only the gal to be able to beat min maxed scans and the 10% proto damp buff. I suggested the 10% to proto as a bandaid until you could fix e-war because it allows min and amarr to get under all scans. See the tension? I'm tired if there's not any and apologize. Make sure to remove it from the gal as well, they both get the range buff. Holy mother of god I love you and logic has been dropped on this thread. Did you factor in stacking penalty on the CA precision quad stack? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:19:00 - [342] - Quote Heres a idea Every scout thats fills thier lows should be unscan able Otherwise remove cal min and amar from scouts as the point of a scout is to be invisible to scanning Im serious Closed beta vet.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:19:00 - [343] - Quote Rattati here's the scanning table created. It's got flaws as far as what is takes to get below scans because it doesn't factor in the rounding up portion. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvYSJ6FRJlihdHRWMFFxUDVPbzZPVTdjZmNwR2loYXc#gid=0 CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 67	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:19:00 - [344] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. Here is the premise 1) I want to encourage stealth players to go to proto cloak 2) GA scout will be the only scout that is completely unscannable 3) Not let GA scouts be the only stealth scouts and use cloaks So, I have been told, I can verify when I am back at work, that if we change the cloak to be at 10% dampening instead of 5% at PRO, at least 3 stealth scouts are viable with cloak, GA, CA and MM. I think that's fine, I don't think everyone should be equally good at everthing. Amarr will get a look soon. Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terribly close to 16. Since I want the only thing to beat the 100% dedicated scout scanner to be a 100% dedicated stealth scout. A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. That means we can reduce the GA Scout bonus to 15% from 25% and still stay under the CA scout at 15.3 or 16dB. Thereby forcing the dedicate GA scout to sacrifice a low in most cases, so that he can't spend it on armor. For the coup de grace, we can reduce the range of the CA passive scan a little bit because it's unnecessarily good. Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. Might have a problem with what you want to achieve due to stacking penalties and amar having 4 lows. If my math/spreadsheet and rounding is right. cal scout with 4x complex precision is 14.91 = 15 an amarr with 4x complex dampeners would be at 14.73 = 15 profile without a cloak bonus so if you only want only 1 scout to be 100% undetectable you would have to remove the dampening to cloak. a gallente with 4x complex dampeners would then need -.5% racial dampening bonus per level for 14.36 = 14 or 15 if rounded up. if rounded up the gallente would need -1% racial dampening bonus per level for a even 14 profile. if your only looking to force gallente into using 4 slots 3x complex 1 basic then it gets really tricky stacking a basic dampener on top of 3 others dampeners will not work as the stacking penalty is greater than the % forcing a enhanced dampener on the 3 not possible because then the racial bonus has to be changed and still only 3x complex is required. stacking penalties are a going to cause problems.
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:22:00 - [345] - Quote Or just make scouts that sacrifice 2 or 3 low slots for complex damps un scanable I mean it's a scout no point in having scouts scanable Otherwise I want a respec to get a gallente scout. Closed beta vet.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:23:00 - [346] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. CCP Rattati - snip Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. I dunno if it's just cause it's late here but I think there's a slight bit of tension in the statements. -snip- I am sorry, I honestly can not understand what you are trying to say. On that note but not towards you specifically, I would frankly prefer that all emotion would just be removed as much as possible out of the feedback threads and just have a logical conversation. Otherwise this won't work as intended. No no I have emotion, but all positive and giddy. rofl. What i am saying by the statements seem to have tension is that your premise says "I want to make gal the only one truly unscannable" the problem is the move from 5% to 10% conflicts with this premise in that it allows min and amarr min/maxing to get under all scans as well. Which is what i advocate for until you can properly revisit e-war in a more comprehensive manner. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:25:00 - [347] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. CCP Rattati - snip Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. I dunno if it's just cause it's late here but I think there's a slight bit of tension in the statements. -snip- I am sorry, I honestly can not understand what you are trying to say. On that note but not towards you specifically, I would frankly prefer that all emotion would just be removed as much as possible out of the feedback threads and just have a logical conversation. Otherwise this won't work as intended. No no I have emotion, but all positive and giddy. rofl. What i am saying by the statements seem to have tension is that your premise says "I want to make gal the only one truly unscannable" the problem is the move from 5% to 10% conflicts with this premise in that it allows min and amarr min/maxing to get under all scans as well. Which is what i advocate for until you can properly revisit e-war in a more comprehensive manner. Good Every scout if they fill all lows should be unscanabke It's only balanced to thier role. Closed beta vet.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:27:00 - [348] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Sacrificing all your slots for one equipment is ******** and un balanced considering it's 5 seconds and has an enormous cooldown and can only hit a limited range and radius, I disagree. If you want to be immune to a maxed out end all be all scanner from 1 suit in the game...then you will have to sacrifice. Otherwise...put on 2 damps to get under the rest and deal with the 5 second scans from that 1 suit. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:28:00 - [349] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Good Every scout if they fill all lows should be unscanabke It's only balanced to thier role. Except cal. In my estimation they could not be truly unscannable and I love that. They are the master scanners but gave up the ability to be truly unscannable in the process. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1622	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:29:00 - [350] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. CCP Rattati - snip Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. I dunno if it's just cause it's late here but I think there's a slight bit of tension in the statements. -snip- I am sorry, I honestly can not understand what you are trying to say. On that note but not towards you specifically, I would frankly prefer that all emotion would just be removed as much as possible out of the feedback threads and just have a logical conversation. Otherwise this won't work as intended. No no I have emotion, but all positive and giddy. rofl. And i'm often terrible at explaining things so let me try this again. What i am saying by the statements seem to have tension is that your premise says: "I want to make gal the only one truly unscannable." the problem is the move from 5% to 10% conflicts with this premise in that it allows min and amarr min/maxing to get under all scans as well. Which is what i advocate for until you can properly revisit e-war in a more comprehensive manner. ok, I should have worded the first premise "at least one scout is unscannable", not "just one" "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:30:00 - [351] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Sacrificing all your slots for one equipment is ****** and un balanced considering it's 5 seconds and has an enormous cooldown and can only hit a limited range and radius, I disagree. If you want to be immune to a maxed out end all be all scanner from 1 suit in the game...then you will have to sacrifice. Otherwise...put on 2 damps to get under the rest and deal with the 5 second scans from that 1 suit. 6 mil sp vs 6 mil sp Broken scanner wins Overpowered They can fill all thier equipment slots and abuse it I only have two slots, both with complex damps, a maxed out scout should be un scan able by everything Wallhax is what makes this game ****** when it's un avoidable. Closed beta vet.
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:32:00 - [352] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Good Every scout if they fill all lows should be unscanabke It's only balanced to thier role. Except cal. In my estimation they could not be truly unscannable and I love that. They are the master scanners but gave up the ability to be truly unscannable in the process. Plus balancing for you to be Uber unscannable with only 2 lows would be difficult. Um its called nerf focus scanner by 5 sb or buff cal db If I sacrifice all my lows for pro damps on a SCOUT, I should never be scanned, otherwise I want my respec for the unbalanced gal scout. The whole point of scouts is to avoid scanning Yet only gallente can do it which is unbalanced. Closed beta vet.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:34:00 - [353] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Sacrificing all your slots for one equipment is ****** and un balanced considering it's 5 seconds and has an enormous cooldown and can only hit a limited range and radius, I disagree. If you want to be immune to a maxed out end all be all scanner from 1 suit in the game...then you will have to sacrifice. Otherwise...put on 2 damps to get under the rest and deal with the 5 second scans from that 1 suit. 6 mil sp vs 6 mil sp Broken scanner wins Overpowered They can fill all thier equipment slots and abuse it I only have two slots, both with complex damps, a maxed out scout should be un scan able by everything Wallhax is what makes this game ****** when it's un avoidable. And all three aside from the cal WILL be able to choose to be unscannable, but at a cost my friend. In 1.7 meta the focused was a tiny bit too strong but it was really close to the right place. Just because a scout was picked up for 5 seconds is not the end of the world. And if they don't want 2 be picked up even by that, then they can choose to make a large sacrifice to get under it. And that if they manage to pick you up with the damn things limited range and radius in the first place. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:35:00 - [354] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Sacrificing all your slots for one equipment is ****** and un balanced considering it's 5 seconds and has an enormous cooldown and can only hit a limited range and radius, I disagree. If you want to be immune to a maxed out end all be all scanner from 1 suit in the game...then you will have to sacrifice. Otherwise...put on 2 damps to get under the rest and deal with the 5 second scans from that 1 suit. 6 mil sp vs 6 mil sp Broken scanner wins Overpowered They can fill all thier equipment slots and abuse it I only have two slots, both with complex damps, a maxed out scout should be un scan able by everything Wallhax is what makes this game ****** when it's un avoidable. And all three aside from the cal WILL be able to choose to be unscannable, but at a cost my friend. In 1.7 meta the focused was a tiny bit too strong but it was really close to the right place. Just because a scout was picked up for 5 seconds is not the end of the world. And if they don't want 2 be picked up even by that, then they can choose to make a large sacrifice to get under it. And that if they manage to pick you up with the damn things limited range and radius in the first place. Every scout should be abke to be unscanable if they use nothing but damps, it's only balanced And I can be picked up by cal scouts But I want a respec if the unbalanced gal scout is only un scanable. Closed beta vet.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:36:00 - [355] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Um its called nerf focus scanner by 5 sb or buff cal db If I sacrifice all my lows for pro damps on a SCOUT, I should never be scanned, otherwise I want my respec for the unbalanced gal scout. The whole point of scouts is to avoid scanning Yet only gallente can do it which is unbalanced. Oh golly, listen brosef. I disagree a cal scout should be unscannable when it only has 2 low slots. I just do. For the reasons stated. Currently all 4 can get under all scans if i'm correct. and after this patch you will be able to continue getting under focused scans if you sacrifice. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:37:00 - [356] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: ok, I should have worded the first premise "at least one scout is unscannable", not "just one" Yeah yeah. Dunno if my maths is wrong, you can check it all out when you get a sec, but suffice it to say the theory is perfect. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:37:00 - [357] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Um its called nerf focus scanner by 5 sb or buff cal db If I sacrifice all my lows for pro damps on a SCOUT, I should never be scanned, otherwise I want my respec for the unbalanced gal scout. The whole point of scouts is to avoid scanning Yet only gallente can do it which is unbalanced. Oh golly, listen brosef. I disagree a cal scout should be unscannable when it only has 2 low slots. I just do. For the reasons stated. Currently all 4 can get under all scans if i'm correct. and after this patch you will be able to continue getting under focused scans if you sacrifice. There are people who abuse the cal scout If a scout has all lows filled you should be unscanable It's the whole damm point of the role. I only specced scout because I couldn't be scanned and I coukd use stealth But now ccp wants to butcher scouts Buff damps by 5 or 8% maybe? Closed beta vet.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:38:00 - [358] - Quote Which is what we're saying will happen...are you drunk? O_O Aside from cal scout (which sacrificed the ability to be COMPLETELY unscannable) all the rest will be able to avoid every scan. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1624	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:39:00 - [359] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Um its called nerf focus scanner by 5 sb or buff cal db If I sacrifice all my lows for pro damps on a SCOUT, I should never be scanned, otherwise I want my respec for the unbalanced gal scout. The whole point of scouts is to avoid scanning Yet only gallente can do it which is unbalanced. Oh golly, listen brosef. I disagree a cal scout should be unscannable when it only has 2 low slots. I just do. For the reasons stated. Currently all 4 can get under all scans if i'm correct. and after this patch you will be able to continue getting under focused scans if you sacrifice. There are people who abuse the cal scout If a scout has all lows filled you should be unscanable It's the whole damm point of the role. I am not sure I agree that the singular purpose of all scouts is to be unscannable. There is no need to keep arguing about that here. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:41:00 - [360] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Which is what we're saying will happen...are you drunk? O_O Aside from cal scout (which sacrificed the ability to be COMPLETELY unscannable) all the rest will be able to avoid every scan. I want my cal SCOUT unscanable As if no then im biomassing Only having 1 role is booring My cal SCOUT Will be an underpowered SCOUT, so it's not a scout but a scanner that can never be used for stealth because ccp wants to make useless for a SCOUT. Inb4 gal scout spam. Closed beta vet.

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:42:00 - [361] - Quote Rattati, if there is one thing I can ask you to add in hotix alpha, could you entertain the idea of giving the min scout a base hack speed of 1.25? (this is not the hack bonus) It currently has a 1.1 according to the sheet released in the devblog back in March. Somehow the min logi in comparison has a 1.2 hack speed base. It really needs to have a 1.25 base hack speed if you could to give it an edge when it's trying to min max stealth, or the gal scout and min scout will compete, I think it's worth giving it a defined role. Just my opinion. Does that make sense? CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:44:00 - [362] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Which is what we're saying will happen...are you drunk? O_O Aside from cal scout (which sacrificed the ability to be COMPLETELY unscannable) all the rest will be able to avoid every scan. I want my cal SCOUT unscanable As if no then im biomassing Only having 1 role is booring My cal SCOUT Will be an underpowered SCOUT, so it's not a scout but a scanner that can never be used for stealth because ccp wants to make useless for a SCOUT. Inb4 gal scout spam. Another thing How is making 3 scouts that can have low db via precision enhancers not scan able but the cal gets screwed and will only be used to scan? I seriously want a respec so I can get a gallente scout, so im not a gimped scout A scanned scout is a dead scout. Closed beta vet.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1591	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:45:00 - [363] - Quote I'm wondering why the Gal scouts have a passive scan range bonus. Cal it makes sense because they're the designated scanners. Removing this could possibly reduce they're efficacy as slayers. Also what IWS said in #40.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 388	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:46:00 - [364] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I am fine if we reduce the two free slots to one, at least to begin with. So removing the innate 3 hp/s? or reducing it. -2 Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 388	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:49:00 - [365] - Quote put the nerf hammer down before someone gets hurt Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:50:00 - [366] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: put the nerf mjinor down before someone gets hurt Fixed. Closed beta vet.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1627	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:51:00 - [367] - Quote To recap and please don't derail this Cloak Dampening 0-5-10 STD-ADV-PRO MM, AM, GA are unscannable if PRO cloaked with additional dampeners. what does the GA scout dampening bonus of 25% need to be reduced by so GA scouts still have an advantage as the best stealth suit, without being OP? Take into account that the 3 hp/s is also making it very OP and that may be reduced and/or eliminated as well. Please only answer that question for the time being. Thanks "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

THUNDERGROOVE The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 817	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:53:00 - [368] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: I want my cal SCOUT unscanable As if no then im biomassing Only having 1 role is booring My cal SCOUT Will be an underpowered SCOUT, so it's not a scout but a scanner that can never be used for stealth because ccp wants to make useless for a SCOUT. Inb4 gal scout spam. You don't understand do you? If you went into the Caldari scout thinking you'd be unscannable then that's your fault. If you really think every single scout should be able to be unscannable then go do us a favor and go biomass. Let me just put this TheD1CK wrote: Many valid points here, I don't care for buff threads... I'm not claiming Amarr in general are whiners Thats all four races, and players in general wanting EZ mode... the forums tend to be waves of HEY!!CCP!!BUFF ME!!!! The biggest part of giving feedback is not being biased.Zatara, Moody and a fair amount of other players who play DUST at a competitive level want everything to be useable in competitive environment. You have no idea how much of a drag it is to play PC every day. Against the same 3-4 corps. All using the same 3-4 suits. If everything was usable in a competitive environment we wouldn't see this. We'd have variety and along with that much more fun. This is why so many people loved 1.8 despite the many broken things that came along with it. We saw so much more variety on the field. So please, when you think about giving feedback in the future, forget about every single thing you're specced into it helps a lot. TDBS Fight heavy spam with plasma cannons!
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:54:00 - [369] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: To recap and please don't derail this Cloak Dampening 0-5-10 STD-ADV-PRO MM, AM, GA are unscannable if PRO cloaked with additional dampeners. what does the GA scout dampening bonus of 25% need to be reduced by so GA scouts still have an advantage as the best stealth suit, without being OP? Take into account that the 3 hp/s is also making it very OP and that may be reduced and/or eliminated as well. Please only answer that question for the time being. Thanks Max of 20%, reduce by 5% or 8% Cal maybe needs less precision as it scans too good atm Btw, a maxed out scout should be unscanable, I can't stress this enough, gallente should get stealth easier but the point of scouts is to avoid scanning A scanned scout is a dead scout Cal is a dead scout. Cal shouldn't be the only scout that can't avoid scans. Btw those numbers look good. Closed beta vet.
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 67	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:00:00 - [370] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: ok, I should have worded the first premise "at least one scout is unscannable", not "just one" Then you need to remove the gallente dampening bonus and give the cloak the bonus. only way to make the cloak needed and it will make the gallente and amarr 100% undetectable from all tac-net. -10 dampening on the cloak with 3x complex 1x enhanced 14.14 = 14 or rounded up 15. if rounded up -11 dampening on the cloak with 3x complex 1x enhanced 13.99 = 14 need to know how rounding works because only 3x complex at -11 = 14.11 forcing 4x complex only needs dampeing bonus of -5 on cloak for even 14

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3191	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:01:00 - [371] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: To recap and please don't derail this Cloak Dampening 0-5-10 STD-ADV-PRO MM, AM, GA are unscannable if PRO cloaked with additional dampeners. what does the GA scout dampening bonus of 25% need to be reduced by so GA scouts still have an advantage as the best stealth suit, without being OP? Take into account that the 3 hp/s is also making it very OP and that may be reduced and/or eliminated as well. Please only answer that question for the time being. Thanks in the meantime? nothing. MAYBE 5% For the moment until a proper rebalance to e-war occurs I am fine if gal only require 2 damps while the rest take 3 in addition to a reduction to the innate repair. In the future rebalancing so that the cal bonus get you to say...16db with quad (this assumes my assumptions based off that scanning table were correct) and the gal logi focused was say..stayed 15. Then allow the gal to get to 16 db with 2 complex damps, but only 2 complex not 1 complex 1 enhanced. and then allow the gal to require 2 complex and perhaps an enhanced or something...but 3 slots and a ton of pause...in order to get under 14 db and thus beat the focused. the #'s for slots were the ones I care about..the db ** was arbitrary. Maybe nerf the cal bonus as well by a limited amount so that passive end all be all specialists get 16 db and not 15? or would that ** everything up? thoughts? CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:01:00 - [372] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: I want my cal SCOUT unscanable As if no then im biomassing Only having 1 role is booring My cal SCOUT Will be an underpowered SCOUT, so it's not a scout but a scanner that can never be used for stealth because ccp wants to make useless for a SCOUT. Inb4 gal scout spam. You don't understand do you? If you went into the Caldari scout thinking you'd be unscannable then that's your fault. If you really think every single scout should be able to be unscannable then go do us a favor and go biomass. Let me just put this TheD1CK wrote: Many valid points here, I don't care for buff threads... I'm not claiming Amarr in general are whiners Thats all four races, and players in general wanting EZ mode... the forums tend to be waves of HEY!!CCP!!BUFF ME!!!! The biggest part of giving feedback is not being biased.Zatara, Moody and a fair amount of other players who play DUST at a competitive level want everything to be useable in competitive environment. You have no idea how much of a drag it is to play PC every day. Against the same 3-4 corps. All using the same 3-4 suits. If everything was usable in a competitive environment we wouldn't see this. We'd have variety and along with that much more fun. This is why so many people loved 1.8 despite the many broken things that came along with it. We saw so much more variety on the field. So please, when you think about giving feedback in the future, forget about every single thing you're specced into it helps a lot. Um hes cal should be unscanable when maxed with all damps The whole point of specing scout is to avoid scans Otherwise I want my respec so I can bet the overpowered scout since scouts are meant to be scanned. Unless you dump millions more sp Closed beta vet.
THUNDERGROOVE The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 820	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:11:00 - [373] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Um yes cal should be unscanable when maxed with all damps The whole point of specing scout is to avoid scans Otherwise I want my respec so I can bet the overpowered scout since scouts are meant to be scanned. Unless you dump millions more sp Sigh A scout isn't necessarily about never being seen and if you're seen by a scout than so be it, you likely see him. I'm done replying to you as you completely skipped over any meaningful part of my post in order to find the one thing you can form the slightest opinion about. TDBS Fight heavy spam with plasma cannons!
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3194	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:12:00 - [374] - Quote Thunder just give up. I promise you it's gonna go nowhere that ends up productive my friend. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:12:00 - [375] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Um yes cal should be unscanable when maxed with all damps The whole point of specing scout is to avoid scans Otherwise I want my respec so I can bet the overpowered scout since scouts are meant to be scanned. Unless you dump millions more sp Sigh A scout isn't necessarily about never being seen and if you're seen by a scout than so be it, you likely see him. I'm done replying to you as you completely skipped over any meaningful part of my post in order to find the one thing you can form the slightest opinion about. Everybody wants to butcher every scout but gallente Which is my problem And wow you are stupid I was replying to your post about me. Closed beta vet.
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 67	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:17:00 - [376] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: To recap and please don't derail this Cloak Dampening 0-5-10 STD-ADV-PRO MM, AM, GA are unscannable if PRO cloaked with additional dampeners. what does the GA scout dampening bonus of 25% need to be reduced by so GA scouts still have an advantage as the best stealth suit, without being OP? Take into account that the 3 hp/s is also making it very OP and that may be reduced and/or eliminated as well. Please only answer that question for the time being. Thanks assuming the 3x complex dampeners and -10 on the pro cloak = 14.27 rounds down. reduce the gallente to 15% forcing 2x complex dampeners.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 388	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:19:00 - [377] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Um yes cal should be unscanable when maxed with all damps The whole point of specing scout is to avoid scans Otherwise I want my respec so I can bet the overpowered scout since scouts are meant to be scanned. Unless you dump millions more sp Sigh A scout isn't necessarily about never being seen and if you're seen by a scout than so be it, you likely see him. I'm done replying to you as you completely skipped over any meaningful part of my post in order to find the one thing you can form the slightest opinion about. Everybody wants to butcher every scout but gallente Which is my problem And wow you are stupid I was replying to your post about me. pretty sure this thread was explicitly made to butcher the gall scout. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:27:00 - [378] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Um yes cal should be unscanable when maxed with all damps The whole point of specing scout is to avoid scans Otherwise I want my respec so I can bet the overpowered scout since scouts are meant to be scanned. Unless you dump millions more sp Sigh A scout isn't necessarily about never being seen and if you're seen by a scout than so be it, you likely see him. I'm done replying to you as you completely skipped over any meaningful part of my post in order to find the one thing you can form the slightest opinion about. Everybody wants to butcher every scout but gallente Which is my problem And wow you are stupid I was replying to your post about me. pretty sure this thread was explicitly made to butcher the gall scout. It wasn't It was made to tweak the gal and screw everyone elses 3 mil sp over. Closed beta vet.
Lady MDK Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 94	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:27:00 - [379] - Quote To be quite frank this is what comes of having different races 'scouts' filling different roles and having completely different bonuses. You in effect create different ROLES within what is supposedly the same class. So rather than having a skill tree that goes : light -> scout (but having each race having a different specialty) What you should effectively have is one that instead of just a scout role is have scout (sig reduction or scanning bonus), computer specialist (hacking speed), infiltrator (cloak), assassin (knives) and have 4 different tier 2 light suits for each race. Instead you have tried to shove all of these roles into one class of suit and created a disparity amoungst the races scout suits. Just my opinion feel free to dissagree. Anyone getting annoyed by reading of the above post should consider the following. I don't care so neither should you :)
George Moros Balkan Express Squad 400	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:32:00 - [380] - Quote Just to give my 2 cents about the whole scanning vs dampening debate... IMHO the problem with current detection mechanics in general (meaning, not just relating to scouts) is that the detection system works like an on/off switch without any "gray" areas. The whole scanning vs dampening meta resolves to "how low my profile has to be in order to remain undetectable to this-and-that?" As a result of this, the balance between profile and precision will always have issues. Either you will have a meta with perma-"you have been scanned" for everyone, or noone will bother with scanners because they know that a significant portion of enemies will be unaffected by them. This pretty much sums up the difference in meta pre and post 1.8. What needs to be done (and I know that it can't be done by simply tweaking a few numbers - the whole system has to be reworked), is to introduce the "gray" area for detection. A gal scout with very low profile simply cannot expect to win every "profile vs detection duel" no matter how low his profile is. In the same manner, a cal scout or a gal logi cannot expect to detect anyone no matter how good his detection is. I suppose there are a number of ways to implement this, so I'll try to propose one possible method... For passive scanning: current mechanics works by simply checking whether your scan precision beats your enemy's scan profile while he's inside your scan radius. If it is, you see his marker on your "radar". What could be done is to introduce another variable into the formula - his relative distance to you dynamically increases his scan profile. Since the whole detection mechanic resolves around how much noise someone makes (scan related numbers represent decibels), this even makes perfect sense reality-check-wise. If your enemy is just inside your scan radius he should be less visible (heardable?) than if he's standing just behind you. In other words, your enemy's marker should be made more and more transparent (or in any other way harder to detect) if your scan precision beats his scan profile by just a tiny amount. As he moves closer, the difference between your scan precision vs his profile increases, making him more and more visible on your radar. This way, even a heavy could potentially see a scout on his radar, if the scout is standing just behind him. For active scanning: by using similar math as in the example above, the difference in the amount your scan detection beats your enemy's profile determines his visibility duration. If you win by just a tiny amount, you'll see him just for a split second, if you win big, you see him for longer duration. So, by making scanning mechanics work as just proposed, you'd (hopefully) get the following: - Your scan profile/precision rating becomes a relevant stat no matter what dropsuit you use. Of course, it still remains more relevant to dropsuits relying on stealth than to those which do not. With this mechanic, even a heavy profits from having a lower scan profile or precision - it does help his survivability, although not as much as having more EHP - just as it should. - Your scan profile/precision rating has utility at any level. It's not just "I gotta have profile lower that X, and I'm cool". Having a profile smaller or greater than X becomes cool too - it depends on player's playstlye/preference/requirements rather than some fixed value to determine which value of X is cool, and which is not. - Most importantly - you get the mechanics with which it's much easier to create a balanced EWAR meta. Pulvereus ergo queritor.

ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 751	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:47:00 - [381] - Quote CCP please remember some of us DO NOT BRICK TANK out Gallente scout. I love to run FULL EWAR! highs - 2 complex precision enhancers, lows - 2 to 3 passive scan range enhancers, with either damps or speed mods. Yes I can gather tons of intel, and with the cloak I can sneek into enemy positions - however my suit has like 180 armour n a almost non-exsistant level of shields. Its a paper tiger. I do not consider it OP as it dies often and gets caught out easily. However if I play smart, if I play cautiously, it can be devastating to unsuspecting victims with the shotgun. I am also under the impression that specifically the Amarr scout and Minmatar scout are not in the best positions at the minute. I am not sure what the answer would be.
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 751	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:57:00 - [382] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Since it is so elegantly balanced, why are gallente scouts predominant [no troll]. Because you can fit 2 damps and maintain 500+ hp. You can have 200 shields plus 300 plus armor. It can be the tankiest and still maintain it's role as a scout. There's no reason not to put two shield extenders in your highs and no reason not to fill the rest of your unused low slots with tank. It also has an innate armor regen. Armor also has insanely low fitting costs so while you equip all of this you can also equip the best weapons, a good cloak, and an RE or an uplink while also maintaining good mobility. Every other scout has to make sacrifices while the gallente does not. It is a combination of many things as to why the gallente is king. Not just a single issue. This I have to agree with. But I feel sad because I run full ewar with 0 tank mods or damage mods. I do hope I can continue the EWAR role in DUST. Its very eve and I love it. Fast - minimal tank - high ewar capability. The Gallente does not scarifice enough if he wants that massively increased tank. It should have to pick ewar, tank , or a balance of the two, not "Well I still have great ewar and I can get good tank if I slap armour plates here, shields there..." The innate reps also seems to help I feel. Amarr scout - unsure the changes needed but I read a lot that it needs a little help. Caldari scout - I dont have this but really would like to try it, people say its pretty good. Minmatar scout - really needs more speed at least, others like Moody know better than I in this case.
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 751	Posted - 2014.05.24 08:09:00 - [383] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: To recap and please don't derail this Cloak Dampening 0-5-10 STD-ADV-PRO MM, AM, GA are unscannable if PRO cloaked with additional dampeners. what does the GA scout dampening bonus of 25% need to be reduced by so GA scouts still have an advantage as the best stealth suit, without being OP? Take into account that the 3 hp/s is also making it very OP and that may be reduced and/or eliminated as well. Please only answer that question for the time being. Thanks Rattati, thankyou so much for the feedback in this thread. I for one, really really appreciate the TIME you are putting in. Some of us remain focused and calm. People get a little 'heated' because this is a subject close to a lot of scout players hearts.... (Hey you made a game that does this :p) Damn sorry for the triple post :(
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 782	Posted - 2014.05.24 08:13:00 - [384] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: I want my cal SCOUT unscanable As if no then im biomassing Only having 1 role is booring My cal SCOUT Will be an underpowered SCOUT, so it's not a scout but a scanner that can never be used for stealth because ccp wants to make useless for a SCOUT. Inb4 gal scout spam. Please do the anti-thesis of whatever he just said. I really want to see em biomass over something so silly. Threatening CCP that you'll biomass if you don't get your way, LOL! Silliness aside, should all scouts have the capacity to be immune from all forms of detection? Is it good for balance? Keep in mind that scouts are not ninjas, they're "a soldier or other person sent out ahead of a main force so as to gather information about the enemy's position, strength, or movements." There might be a good reasoning for doing it, but I haven't seen it yet. Please direct me to a good supporting argument if you know of one. Currently scouts have the best base stats for detection and evading detection. Perhaps we should change the base stats so that we have 2 scouts good at evading scans and the other 2 scouts good at detection? Just a brain fart. I would also like to take the time to remind CCP Rattati that balance and making people happy are two separate things. Keep up the good work, I'm loving the interaction between players and DEVs. Medium frame EHP is not medium
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 08:21:00 - [385] - Quote medomai grey wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: I want my cal SCOUT unscanable As if no then im biomassing Only having 1 role is booring My cal SCOUT Will be an underpowered SCOUT, so it's not a scout but a scanner that can never be used for stealth because ccp wants to make useless for a SCOUT. Inb4 gal scout spam. Please do the anti-thesis of whatever he just said. I really want to see em biomass over something so silly. Threatening CCP that you'll biomass if you don't get your way, LOL! Silliness aside, should all scouts have the capacity to be immune from all forms of detection? Is it good for balance? Keep in mind that scouts are not ninjas, they're "a soldier or other person sent out ahead of a main force so as to gather information about the enemy's position, strength, or movements." There might be a good reasoning for doing it, but I haven't seen it yet. Please direct me to a good supporting argument if you know of one. Currently scouts have the best base stats for detection and evading detection. Perhaps we should change the base stats so that we have 2 scouts good at evading scans and the other 2 scouts good at detection? Just a brain fart. I would also like to take the time to remind CCP Rattati that balance and making people happy are two separate things. Keep up the good work, I'm loving the interaction between players and DEVs. It's balanced because of lower hp when brick tanking is fix And this game needs less gay wallhax. Closed beta vet.
Izlare Lenix Arrogance. Dark Taboo 594	Posted - 2014.05.24 08:46:00 - [386] - Quote This is another terrible CCP idea. The removal of the cloak dampening will shift the meta to more gal logis with multiple pro focused scanners, especially in PC. This will force the phasing out of min, cal and amarr scouts since the gal will be the only one to get under focused scanners now. More slayers will go to gal scout or sentinel with hmg and some commandos. Heavies will be everywhere, sitting on armor hives with logi reps forcing more players into heavies especially since assaults suck azz and so will three out of four scout suits. Gun control is not about guns...it's about control. The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3196	Posted - 2014.05.24 08:55:00 - [387] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: This is another terrible CCP idea. The removal of the cloak dampening will shift the meta to more gal logis with multiple pro focused scanners, especially in PC. This will force the phasing out of min, cal and amarr scouts since the gal will be the only one to get under focused scanners now. More slayers will go to gal scout or sentinel with hmg and some commandos. Heavies will be everywhere, sitting on armor hives with logi reps forcing more players into heavies especially since assaults suck azz and so will three out of four scout suits. YOu must have missed this. WIth his proposed changes all but the cal scout will be able to choose to be unscannable. The active scanners are NEVER used in PC...meanwhile in 1.7 they WERE used to find everyone dampening except gal scouts with a lot of damps. The focused was a bit 2 OP but was much closer to balance then as opposed to now. Make it a choice and not an afterthought Even as a gal logi who could get under all scans BUT the focused I didn't abandon my damp suit just because someone could scan me for 5 seconds. I could have...but I didn't because being unscannable by all else except 5 seconds was fine for my playstyle. Again, make it a choice. Not an afterthought. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Izlare Lenix Arrogance. Dark Taboo 594	Posted - 2014.05.24 09:16:00 - [388] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: This is another terrible CCP idea. The removal of the cloak dampening will shift the meta to more gal logis with multiple pro focused scanners, especially in PC. This will force the phasing out of min, cal and amarr scouts since the gal will be the only one to get under focused scanners now. More slayers will go to gal scout or sentinel with hmg and some commandos. Heavies will be everywhere, sitting on armor hives with logi reps forcing more players into heavies especially since assaults suck azz and so will three out of four scout suits. YOu must have missed this. WIth his proposed changes all but the cal scout will be able to choose to be unscannable. The active scanners are NEVER used in PC...meanwhile in 1.7 they WERE used to find everyone dampening except gal scouts with a lot of damps. The focused was a bit 2 OP but was much closer to balance then as opposed to now. Make it a choice and not an afterthought Even as a gal logi who could get under all scans BUT the focused I didn't abandon my damp suit just because someone could scan me for 5 seconds. I could have...but I didn't because being unscannable by all else except 5 seconds was fine for my playstyle. Again, make it a choice. Not an afterthought. First, an amarr scout with 4 complex damps can not get under a gal logi with pro focused. Amarr scout with 4 complex damps is 14.7 db, pro focused is 15db, which means Amarr scout will be scanned and min and cal have no chance to avoid it. Second, gal logi recieves bonus to duration so it's longer than five seconds. Also players stack multiple scanners on a logi suit so they can scan even longer and multiple directions. Third, since damping an amarr, cal and min scout will be almost pointless and cloak time is being cut in half more scout players will brick tank which means any suit with a pro active scanner will pick these brick tanked scouts up. Scanning will become more prevalent, "you have been scanned" will be burned into all our tvs again and more players will switch to gal scouts or heavies. Gun control is not about guns...it's about control. The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3197	Posted - 2014.05.24 09:27:00 - [389] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: First, an amarr scout with 4 complex damps can not get under a gal logi with pro focused. Amarr scout with 4 complex damps is 14.7 db, pro focused is 15db, which means Amarr scout will be scanned and min and cal have no chance to avoid it. Second, gal logi recieves bonus to duration so it's longer than five seconds. Also players stack multiple scanners on a logi suit so they can scan even longer and multiple directions. Third, since damping an amarr, cal and min scout will be almost pointless and cloak time is being cut in half more scout players will brick tank which means any suit with a pro active scanner will pick these brick tanked scouts up. Scanning will become more prevalent, "you have been scanned" will be burned into all our tvs again and more players will switch to gal scouts or heavies. No it can currently get under with a cloak and 2 damps I think and next build based off his changes with be able to get under with 4 damps and the proposed 10% bonus to proto cloaks. Sure he can spam 4 focused on you, so what? He contributes scans 25 seconds out of the minute? and each scan can miss with the tiny radius? and the 3 scouts can still beat it? Come now man and we can reason together. In 1.7 PC you could scan all except gal with what 4 damps? DId we stop wearing double damped logi's? Nope. Why? 5 seconds. Did I run 4 focused? Nope, still needed to do my logi duty, so i had 1 focused 1 duvolle and maybe one other person on the team used one for HP. I might just run focused if I was a gal logi and let the cal be the passive scans until everyone forms a consensus that active scanning should be the only squad shared scans..but other than that yeah i think i've explained this a little more. Hopefully it all makes sense to you brochacho. o7 CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Izlare Lenix Arrogance. Dark Taboo 597	Posted - 2014.05.24 09:45:00 - [390] - Quote I still think more players will go gal scout. Caldari can't scan gal scouts and with only two lows they will be limited on dampining. This will fade their usefulness to squad scanner only. Min and amarr scouts will still suck so a lot of theses scouts will cross to gal or heavy. This will further reduce usefulness of cal scout cause they still can't scan gal scouts and gal Scouts with two pre enhancers can scan all heavies and all mediums that don't have three complex damps out two 37 meters. Either way the battlefield will be litered with heavies and their logi pets and gal scouts. Assaults will still suck and amarr, min and cal scouts will have limited usefulness. Gun control is not about guns...it's about control. The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.

Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1730	Posted - 2014.05.24 09:47:00 - [391] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. Here is the premise 1) I want to encourage stealth players to go to proto cloak 2) GA scout will be the only scout that is completely unscannable 3) Not let GA scouts be the only stealth scouts and use cloaks Seeing as it got buried, I link it again here. 1) This will most certainly encourage higher tier cloaks to be used. 2) Gallente will be the only one passively undetectable, just like Cal are the best passive scanners, but not active scannrs. 3) Any scout can equip and use it, but for limited times. Numbers can be changed, such as times being 20, 30 and 40 I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3198	Posted - 2014.05.24 09:58:00 - [392] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: I still think more players will go gal scout. Caldari can't scan gal scouts and with only two lows they will be limited on dampining. This will fade their usefulness to squad scanner only. Min and amarr scouts will still suck so a lot of theses scouts will cross to gal or heavy. This will further reduce usefulness of cal scout cause they still can't scan gal scouts and gal Scouts with two pre enhancers can scan all heavies and all mediums that don't have three complex damps out two 37 meters. Either way the battlefield will be litered with heavies and their logi pets and gal scouts. Assaults will still suck and amarr, min and cal scouts will have limited usefulness. I disagree, BUT I will say I have a handy thread that advocates making min scout have a 1.25 hack speed innate instead of a 1.1 hack speed which is dumb because it doesn't give it a huge edge when the gal and min are trying to go hardcore dampened ninja hacker. THIS I hope, will. Amarr needs love and will get some. If you could help brainstorm that'd be awesome. Cal scouts already couldn't scan gal scouts with 1 damp and a cloak on. If the changes make it so they need 2 damps GOOD. They'll actually be more useful because it'll keep those pesky gal's on their toes. In the long run perhaps maybe swap the gal logi bonus from duration of scan to radius or cooldown. But absolutely this will help make gal logi focused WORTH USING. Atm they are simply useless. :( CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 1079	Posted - 2014.05.24 10:08:00 - [393] - Quote - Gallente and Amarr being the only dampened options is lame, that gives no dampening ability to shield tankers.. Amarr Scout with 3 complex damps Minmatar Scout with 3 complex damps Both of those should be on par with Gallente with 2 complex damps... the Cal loses out Due to 2 low slots not being enough, and is the passive scanner of scouts - To propose leaving the Minmatar ineffectively dampening, is wrong.. It's an assassin suit focused on melee and we're expected to do that while being scanned ???? Also.. A Full proto Amarr/Minmatar with 3 damps each, both come off with little over 400hp Which is perfectly balanced in terms of HP values of a cloaked scout......
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3198	Posted - 2014.05.24 10:12:00 - [394] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: - Gallente and Amarr being the only dampened options is lame, that gives no dampening ability to shield tankers.. Amarr Scout with 3 complex damps Minmatar Scout with 3 complex damps Both of those should be on par with Gallente with 2 complex damps... the Cal loses out Due to 2 low slots not being enough, and is the passive scanner of scouts - To propose leaving the Minmatar ineffectively dampening, is wrong.. It's an assassin suit focused on melee and we're expected to do that while being scanned ???? Also.. A Full proto Amarr/Minmatar with 3 damps each, both come off with little over 400hp Which is perfectly balanced in terms of HP values of a cloaked scout...... WTF...people still in here when we already established the pmemise of min being able to go full undetectable. -_-;; CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1521	Posted - 2014.05.24 10:17:00 - [395] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: TheD1CK wrote: - Gallente and Amarr being the only dampened options is lame, that gives no dampening ability to shield tankers.. Amarr Scout with 3 complex damps Minmatar Scout with 3 complex damps Both of those should be on par with Gallente with 2 complex damps... the Cal loses out Due to 2 low slots not being enough, and is the passive scanner of scouts - To propose leaving the Minmatar ineffectively dampening, is wrong.. It's an assassin suit focused on melee and we're expected to do that while being scanned ???? Also.. A Full proto Amarr/Minmatar with 3 damps each, both come off with little over 400hp Which is perfectly balanced in terms of HP values of a cloaked scout...... WTF...people still in here when we already established the pmemise of min being able to go full undetectable. -_-;; It's a maxed out scout, after all. Closed beta vet.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13698	Posted - 2014.05.24 10:58:00 - [396] - Quote The 3 HP/s on the Galscout is a nice flavour thing but it's not really necessary or effective. The scan range bonus seems unnecessary if the Galscout is to be the 'stealth' scout rather than the scanning scout. It might alleviate concerns about the Galscout being able to scan and be unscannable if the scan range bonus were to go. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 978	Posted - 2014.05.24 11:24:00 - [397] - Quote @ Zatara Beating scans isn't "have cake and eat it too" for a 250hp Scout; it is simply survival. A scanned Scout is a dead Scout (unless he's hp tanked). @ Rattati The problem is a 600+ hp Scout beating scans. The proposed nerf-package is overkill. It will not permit stealth units enough free space to perform useful function. No room for Biotics, Scans, Hacks. Suggestion: Lvl(5) Scout + 2 cmp damps + proto cloak (on) = unscannable Exceptions: CalScout w/4 cmp precision; max GalLogi w/duvolle focused Reasoning: Solves the problem without creating new problems. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 720	Posted - 2014.05.24 11:26:00 - [398] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: Stuff More stuff First, an amarr scout with 4 complex damps can not get under a gal logi with pro focused. Amarr scout with 4 complex damps is 14.7 db, pro focused is 15db, which means Amarr scout will be scanned and min and cal have no chance to avoid it. ... Even more stuff It looks like you don't understand what they numbers mean. If you're profile is lower than the scan precision, you aren't scanned; if your profile is 14.7 db and the scanner has a precision of 15, you wont be scanned. Also you missed this: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. Here is the premise 1) I want to encourage stealth players to go to proto cloak 2) GA scout will be the only scout that is completely unscannable 3) Not let GA scouts be the only stealth scouts and use cloaks So, I have been told, I can verify when I am back at work, that if we change the cloak to be at 10% dampening instead of 5% at PRO, at least 3 stealth scouts are viable with cloak, GA, CA and MM. I think that's fine, I don't think everyone should be equally good at everthing. Amarr will get a look soon. Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terribly close to 16. Since I want the only thing to beat the 100% dedicated scout scanner to be a 100% dedicated stealth scout. A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. That means we can reduce the GA Scout bonus to 15% from 25% and still stay under the CA scout at 15.3 or 16dB. Thereby forcing the dedicate GA scout to sacrifice a low in most cases, so that he can't spend it on armor. For the coup de grace, we can reduce the range of the CA passive scan a little bit because it's unnecessarily good. Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. Anyway, I really like the way this is going, but one thing that needs to be done is make fitting a prototype focused active scanner harder, since a scout has to make lots of sacrifices to hide from it, so should the person trying to use it. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3208	Posted - 2014.05.24 11:30:00 - [399] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Zatara Beating scans isn't "have cake and eat it too" for a 250hp Scout; it is simply survival. A scanned Scout is a dead Scout (unless he's hp tanked). @ Rattati The problem is a 600+ hp Scout beating scans. The proposed nerf-package is overkill. It will not permit stealth units enough free space to perform useful function. No room for Biotics, Scans, Hacks. Suggestion: Lvl(5) Scout + 2 cmp damps + proto cloak (on) = unscannable Exceptions: CalScout w/4 cmp precision; max GalLogi w/duvolle focused Reasoning: Solves the problem without creating new problems. Problem is you're not seeing I agree with you. Min and amarr should be able to get under all scans except your 2 cases without a 3rd damp. all scouts should need that 3rd damp if they want to get under gal focused or quad cal rest of the time i'm fine if they can get under the rest with 2 complex. What you need to understand is that in the long run: Cloaks need to not give module bonuses. Cloaks should be viable and useful even when you are scannable. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1522	Posted - 2014.05.24 11:35:00 - [400] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Zatara Beating scans isn't "have cake and eat it too" for a 250hp Scout; it is simply survival. A scanned Scout is a dead Scout (unless he's hp tanked). @ Rattati The problem is a 600+ hp Scout beating scans. The proposed nerf-package is overkill. It will not permit stealth units enough free space to perform useful function. No room for Biotics, Scans, Hacks. Suggestion: Lvl(5) Scout + 2 cmp damps + proto cloak (on) = unscannable Exceptions: CalScout w/4 cmp precision; max GalLogi w/duvolle focused Reasoning: Solves the problem without creating new problems. I only use 1 enhancer most the timr So I'd be invisible I guess Closed beta vet.

Izlare Lenix Arrogance. Dark Taboo 600	Posted - 2014.05.24 11:46:00 - [401] - Quote If your going to reduce the cal scout passive range bonus can you remove it completely from the gal scout. Why does a scout dedicated to dampening even have a scanning bonus? Gun control is not about guns...it's about control. The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3208	Posted - 2014.05.24 11:57:00 - [402] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: If your going to reduce the cal scout passive range bonus can you remove it completely from the gal scout. Why does a scout dedicated to dampening even have a scanning bonus? 100% agree CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 985	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:05:00 - [403] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: If your going to reduce the cal scout passive range bonus can you remove it completely from the gal scout. Why does a scout dedicated to dampening even have a scanning bonus? Nerf after unnecessary nerf. Removing range bonuses will make LS range extenders useless. They aren't worth using without the bonus. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 720	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:06:00 - [404] - Quote Lady MDK wrote: To be quite frank this is what comes of having different races 'scouts' filling different roles and having completely different bonuses. You in effect create different ROLES within what is supposedly the same class. So rather than having a skill tree that goes : light -> scout (but having each race having a different specialty) What you should effectively have is one that instead of just a scout role is have scout (sig reduction or scanning bonus), computer specialist (hacking speed), infiltrator (cloak), assassin (knives) and have 4 different tier 2 light suits for each race. In fact you should probablyhave less than 4 as some of these roles cross over each other and are therefore less rounded. Instead you have tried to shove all of these roles into one class of suit and created a disparity amoungst the races scout suits. Just my opinion feel free to dissagree. All the scouts are scouts because they all have a bonus to use optical camouflage that can also reduce scan profile, so one can be harder detect from visually and or scanners. In addition to that, the Gal & Cal scouts have a bonus towards scanning which is information gathering which is something a scout does. The Min scout has a bonus to hacking which is also something that a generally falls into something a scout would do (you never heard of people sending in scouts to sneak in and mess things up for the enemy?): go in fast and mess up by hack enemy's tactical points which can be just hacking turret installations, CRUs, null cannons, or even killing someone to steal their vehicle by hacking it. Even the Am scouts not so useful bonus is scouty, being able to run for extended periods of time or having good stamina are vaguely scouty traits. Even though not all of them clearly fit the definition of a scout without any gray areas, just changing how the skill tree works or even the name of the specialization would require a lot of work like localization, testing if the skills properly apply to the new roles, adding skill books, and making sure those other roles also get a bonus to fitting a cloak module. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3208	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:08:00 - [405] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: If your going to reduce the cal scout passive range bonus can you remove it completely from the gal scout. Why does a scout dedicated to dampening even have a scanning bonus? Nerf after unnecessary nerf. Removing range bonuses will make LS range extenders useless. They aren't worth using without the bonus. Rofl...how do you figure? Please tell me also LS? CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 391	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:20:00 - [406] - Quote makes sense that a cal scout could have high end precision at close ranges (referring to the cal range amp bonus thingy possibly being reduced) and a gall has low precision over a longer range. but a gall scout with 2 prec enhancers should have issues finding a dual dampened/cloaked cal scout as well. Same goes with the cal scout with 4 prec enhancers, having a problem finding a gal scout with 4 dampening/cloak But the amar/min with 3 prec enhancers, should be able to detect the cal scout, and the cal scout find them as well. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 391	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:21:00 - [407] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: makes sense that a cal scout could have high end precision at close ranges (referring to the cal range amp bonus thingy possibly being reduced) and a gall has low precision over a longer range. but a gall scout with 2 prec enhancers should have issues finding a dual dampened/cloaked cal scout as well. Same goes with the cal scout with 4 prec enhancers, having a problem finding a gal scout with 4 dampening/cloak But the amar/min with 3 prec enhancers, should be able to detect the cal scout, and the cal scout find them as well. ignore me, just passing by Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5740	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:23:00 - [408] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Um its called nerf focus scanner by 5 sb or buff cal db If I sacrifice all my lows for pro damps on a SCOUT, I should never be scanned, otherwise I want my respec for the unbalanced gal scout. The whole point of scouts is to avoid scanning Yet only gallente can do it which is unbalanced. Oh golly, listen brosef. I disagree a cal scout should be unscannable when it only has 2 low slots. I just do. For the reasons stated. Currently all 4 can get under all scans if i'm correct. and after this patch you will be able to continue getting under focused scans if you sacrifice. There are people who abuse the cal scout If a scout has all lows filled you should be unscanable It's the whole damm point of the role. I am not sure I agree that the singular purpose of all scouts is to be unscannable. There is no need to keep arguing about that here. Agree with this. If all scouts are unscannable then their specializations start to bleed into one another. Their role is focused around cloaking devices which is a 100% guarantee that you have the opportunity to at least be able to -reduce- (note that I did not say prevent) visual detection. Role =/= Specialization. If one scout has the ability to be unscannable, that is their specialization. If they all do, then we're right back to the same problem of trying to figure out what each of these scouts is supposed to do better than the others. As far as the rest of the thread: /popcorn Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 721	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:24:00 - [409] - Quote Since Gallente scouts are mostly about not being detected, would it be a good idea to remove its scan radius bonus and add a cloak duration bonus, so it has a bonus towards dampening and duration of cloak? This would also not make the gal scout have a bonus that's too similar to the Cal scout. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 474	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:25:00 - [410] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: makes sense that a cal scout could have high end precision at close ranges (referring to the cal range amp bonus thingy possibly being reduced) and a gall has low precision over a longer range. but a gall scout with 2 prec enhancers should have issues finding a dual dampened/cloaked cal scout as well. Same goes with the cal scout with 4 prec enhancers, having a problem finding a gal scout with 4 dampening/cloak But the amar/min with 3 prec enhancers, should be able to detect the cal scout, and the cal scout find them as well. This swayed me. Also if the changes are made that they have to use damps and armor regen (if they want) then they cant use range extenders as well - tradeoffs have to be made which is good. "Shine bright like a diamond"

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3208	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:25:00 - [411] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: makes sense that a cal scout could have high end precision at close ranges (referring to the cal range amp bonus thingy possibly being reduced) and a gall has low precision over a longer range. but a gall scout with 2 prec enhancers should have issues finding a dual dampened/cloaked cal scout as well. Same goes with the cal scout with 4 prec enhancers, having a problem finding a gal scout with 4 dampening/cloak But the amar/min with 3 prec enhancers, should be able to detect the cal scout, and the cal scout find them as well. If you had to choose between a bonus that makes you uniquely adept at not being scanned by the gal or being adept at scanning longe range as opposed to a shorter more focused precision cal which would you choose? Both is not an answer. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3208	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:27:00 - [412] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Since Gallente scouts are mostly about not being detected, would it be a good idea to remove its scan radius bonus and add a cloak duration bonus, so it has a bonus towards dampening and duration of cloak? To me that makes more sense. Honestly, even right now 60 seconds on the advanced begs you to have campy play. I wanna see 45 seconds at proto in action before they implement something like that. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 392	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:30:00 - [413] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: makes sense that a cal scout could have high end precision at close ranges (referring to the cal range amp bonus thingy possibly being reduced) and a gall has low precision over a longer range. but a gall scout with 2 prec enhancers should have issues finding a dual dampened/cloaked cal scout as well. Same goes with the cal scout with 4 prec enhancers, having a problem finding a gal scout with 4 dampening/cloak But the amar/min with 3 prec enhancers, should be able to detect the cal scout, and the cal scout find them as well. If you had to choose between a bonus that makes you uniquely adept at not being scanned by the gal or being adept at scanning longe range as opposed to a shorter more focused precision cal which would you choose? Both is not an answer. that's not ignoring me :( cloaks and runs away Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3210	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:34:00 - [414] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: that's not ignoring me :( cloaks and runs away /me pulls out gal logi focused CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 392	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:35:00 - [415] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: that's not ignoring me :( cloaks and runs away /me pulls out gal logi focused doh (homer simpson voice) Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3210	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:37:00 - [416] - Quote all of you quickly! support my thread! <3 Help Min scouts be awesome! https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2177186#post2177186 CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 721	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:42:00 - [417] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Since Gallente scouts are mostly about not being detected, would it be a good idea to remove its scan radius bonus and add a cloak duration bonus, so it has a bonus towards dampening and duration of cloak? To me that makes more sense. Honestly, even right now 60 seconds on the advanced begs you to have campy play. I wanna see 45 seconds at proto in action before they implement something like that. On the hotfix alpha spreadsheet, the proposed cloak duration is 15/30/45 STD-ADV-PRO. If those were the final numbers, would you like what I'm suggesting? MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 392	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:43:00 - [418] - Quote What if I told you, that the only reason I skilled into the gk.0 scout is because that I thought the racial bonus' would apply to my dren scout? :p Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 721	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:55:00 - [419] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: What if I told you, that the only reason I skilled into the gk.0 scout is because that I thought the racial bonus' would apply to my dren scout? :p I would think that you wanted to make a high ISK efficient fitting. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 213	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:55:00 - [420] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: To recap and please don't derail this Cloak Dampening 0-5-10 STD-ADV-PRO MM, AM, GA are unscannable if PRO cloaked with additional dampeners. what does the GA scout dampening bonus of 25% need to be reduced by so GA scouts still have an advantage as the best stealth suit, without being OP? Take into account that the 3 hp/s is also making it very OP and that may be reduced and/or eliminated as well. Please only answer that question for the time being. Thanks Cloak should provide invisibility only. Tier invisible time for each level. If people want dampening, they should have to fit a dampener. (Also, reduce/remove Gal inate armour repair or reduce/remove their inate shield regen.) Duct tape 2.0 > Have WD-40; will travel.

Haerr Legio DXIV 703	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:59:00 - [421] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: snip Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terribly close to 16. snip Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. Did you change the bonus to the Caldari Scout? Taking stacking penalty into account makes a Caldari Scout with 4 complex precision enhancers end up close to 14.91 Zatara Rought wrote: snip It's got flaws as far as what is takes to get below scans because it doesn't factor in the rounding up portion. snip Rounding up portion? Please explain. New Table: Link at the bottom of the post. Gallente Scout 15% Profile Dampening bonus (Used to be 25%) Columns are: N = No Cloak Field S = Standard Cloak Field (0% Dampening Bonus, used to be 25%) A = Advanced Cloak Field (5% Dampening Bonus, used to be 25%) P = Prototype Cloak Field (10% Dampening Bonus, used to be 25%) Pale Green = 0 Complex Profile Dampeners Green = 1 Complex Profile Dampeners Cyan = 2 Complex Profile Dampeners Blue = 3 Complex Profile Dampeners Purple = 4 Complex Profile Dampeners Pink = 5 Complex Profile Dampeners Table: LINK I have Plasma Cannon Proficiency V, no jk.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3215	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:59:00 - [422] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Since Gallente scouts are mostly about not being detected, would it be a good idea to remove its scan radius bonus and add a cloak duration bonus, so it has a bonus towards dampening and duration of cloak? To me that makes more sense. Honestly, even right now 60 seconds on the advanced begs you to have campy play. I wanna see 45 seconds at proto in action before they implement something like that. On the hotfix alpha spreadsheet, the proposed cloak duration is 15/30/45 STD-ADV-PRO. If those were the final numbers, would you like what I'm suggesting? Like i said it'll just depend on seeing how campy people end up being with the proposed changes. 1 minute with 30 seconds regen still means you can have a LONG time to camp. I wonder if we could ever play with the idea of how the longer your duration the longer the regen in the sense than it was dynamic. Instead of hey if you have a proto cloak and it's 60 duration 30 sec recharge....instead if you cloak for 20 seconds or less recharge is 10 seconds for that 20. But if you use it for 20-40 secs it has a 30 seconds recharge for that 40 seconds you used and if you use it for more than 40 secs...say 56 seconds...then you have to wait 56 seconds for it to recharge. Just a thought the numbers were arbitrary but you get the idea...incentivize a non campy playstyle for using the cloak. PC is 2 fast for that kind of campy attitude it engenders. Does that make sense? TBH 3 days before he released these number I had been overkilling perhaps and suggesting to Appia and others the idea of proto cloaks only lasting 30 seconds. Because that's the length of your average engagement from scan to close distance to engage to conclusion IMO. Sustained firefights are mostly a thing of the past and passive scans + shared vision making it not worth it to be an assault or commando or logi aside from min for repping unless you're playing a point amongst a bunch of people, preferably heavies. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 988	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:06:00 - [423] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: If your going to reduce the cal scout passive range bonus can you remove it completely from the gal scout. Why does a scout dedicated to dampening even have a scanning bonus? Nerf after unnecessary nerf. Removing range bonuses will make LS range extenders useless. They aren't worth using without the bonus. Rofl...how do you figure? Please tell me also LS? Low Slot Check the math w/out bonus. Compare to range of any fine rifle. Why nerf the CalScout? It isn't the problem. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3215	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:11:00 - [424] - Quote Haerr wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: snip Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terribly close to 16. snip Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. Did you change the bonus to the Caldari Scout? Taking stacking penalty into account makes a Caldari Scout with 4 complex precision enhancers end up close to 14.91 Zatara Rought wrote: snip It's got flaws as far as what is takes to get below scans because it doesn't factor in the rounding up portion. snip Rounding up portion? Please explain. New Table: Link at the bottom of the post. Gallente Scout 15% Profile Dampening bonus (Used to be 25%) Columns are: N = No Cloak Field S = Standard Cloak Field (0% Dampening Bonus, used to be 25%) A = Advanced Cloak Field (5% Dampening Bonus, used to be 25%) P = Prototype Cloak Field (10% Dampening Bonus, used to be 25%) Pale Green = 0 Complex Profile Dampeners Green = 1 Complex Profile Dampeners Cyan = 2 Complex Profile Dampeners Blue = 3 Complex Profile Dampeners Purple = 4 Complex Profile Dampeners Pink = 5 Complex Profile Dampeners Table: LINK HEY! <3 SOmeone asked me a question. SO. On this here scanning table for example it lists 4 complex damps on a non gal scout that is non cloaked under the section for quadprecision cal. Whats the purpose of telling me 4 complex damps? that that 14.73 you have listed rounds up to 15 and thus is scanned by a cal quad and gal focused. make sense? CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 722	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:12:00 - [425] - Quote CCP Rattati, are you still considering removing shared vision from passive scans? MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 988	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:14:00 - [426] - Quote Also, what's your angle Zatara? You're parlaying an isolated OP item (bricked GalScout) into a nerf package for all Scouts. Next, we'll buff Assaults. Then Scouts will be wholly non competitive. Again. Why? Frack your ploys, Zatara. You've crossed my line. Accept my resignation from the corp. - Shotty GoBang (an actual scout) Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13700	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:17:00 - [427] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Also, what's your angle Zatara? You're parlaying an isolated OP item (bricked GalScout) into a nerf package for all Scouts. Next, we'll buff Assaults. Then Scouts will be wholly non competitive. Again. Why? Nerf package for all scouts? Are you referring to the cloak duration or something else? If it's the cloak duration, it really is unnecessarily long. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3215	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:18:00 - [428] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: If your going to reduce the cal scout passive range bonus can you remove it completely from the gal scout. Why does a scout dedicated to dampening even have a scanning bonus? Nerf after unnecessary nerf. Removing range bonuses will make LS range extenders useless. They aren't worth using without the bonus. Rofl...how do you figure? Please tell me also LS? Low Slot Check the math w/out bonus. Compare to range of any fine rifle. Why nerf the CalScout? It isn't the problem. The cal scout needs a nerf so that the passive end all be all isn't as good as the active end all be all. the gal focused needs to be slightly better because of it's drawbacks IMO. I think you're overstating it when you assert that w/o the bonus it's worthless. rofl you get 30 meters with the passive skill. a 45% bonus to that is skill going to be huge. The range bonus from that skill is far and away better than the 6 or so meters you get from the cal's bonus. and losing it DEFINITELY does not mean the cal can't scan well...30 meters is really good compared to the what...22.5 you get with max skills on a medium? theoretically let's say the bonus range is 7 meters and a proto range was not 45 but 50(!!!!)% increase. you get 3.5 meters more with the cal bonus. Personally i'm fine if the CAL keep it as they will hopefully pick others up before being picked up IF ANYTHING that's what it is...a tiny buff to see scouts if you both were scannable before he does...but the gal def shouldn't have it IMHO. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Haerr Legio DXIV 703	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:21:00 - [429] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Haerr wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: snip Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terribly close to 16. snip Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. Did you change the bonus to the Caldari Scout? Taking stacking penalty into account makes a Caldari Scout with 4 complex precision enhancers end up close to 14.91 Zatara Rought wrote: snip It's got flaws as far as what is takes to get below scans because it doesn't factor in the rounding up portion. snip Rounding up portion? Please explain. New Table: Link at the bottom of the post. Gallente Scout 15% Profile Dampening bonus (Used to be 25%) Columns are: N = No Cloak Field S = Standard Cloak Field (0% Dampening Bonus, used to be 25%) A = Advanced Cloak Field (5% Dampening Bonus, used to be 25%) P = Prototype Cloak Field (10% Dampening Bonus, used to be 25%) Pale Green = 0 Complex Profile Dampeners Green = 1 Complex Profile Dampeners Cyan = 2 Complex Profile Dampeners Blue = 3 Complex Profile Dampeners Purple = 4 Complex Profile Dampeners Pink = 5 Complex Profile Dampeners Table: LINK HEY! <3 SOmeone asked me a question. SO. On this here scanning table for example it lists 4 complex damps on a non gal scout that is non cloaked under the section for quadprecision cal. Whats the purpose of telling me 4 complex damps? that that 14.73 you have listed rounds up to 15 and thus is scanned by a cal quad and gal focused. make sense? Hmm... If you have a Caldari Scout can we jump on Dust and try it out? You can find me in #Legio or Scouts United I have Plasma Cannon Proficiency V, no jk.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 722	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:22:00 - [430] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Also, what's your angle Zatara? You're parlaying an isolated OP item (bricked GalScout) into a nerf package for all Scouts. Next, we'll buff Assaults. Then Scouts will be wholly non competitive. Again. Why? Nerf package for all scouts? Are you referring to the cloak duration or something else? If it's the cloak duration, it really is unnecessarily long. I think the nerf he's referring to the reduced dampening bonus from cloaks and by competitive I think he means HP tanking ability while being completely unscannable. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3219	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:22:00 - [431] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Also, what's your angle Zatara? You're parlaying an isolated OP item (bricked GalScout) into a nerf package for all Scouts. Next, we'll buff Assaults. Then Scouts will be wholly non competitive. Again. Why? Frack your ploys, Zatara. You've crossed my line. Accept my resignation from the corp. - Shotty GoBang (an actual scout) Hmm...skepticism of my motives, eh? If that's the way you perceived my intentions my friend...then I failed...and you weren't paying attention. I see no evidence of a ploy...merely rational...logical conclusions. That you even agree with! <3 Perhaps we should talk on comms about this. If you're mind is made so arbitrarily then I think you're not the man I heard the other day. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3219	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:24:00 - [432] - Quote Haerr wrote: Hmm... If you have a Caldari Scout can we jump on Dust and try it out? You can find me in #Legio or Scouts United Alas my friend I've been up all night watching this thread like a hawk and now i'm quite sleepy. But i'm def down to try it out soon. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Haerr Legio DXIV 703	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:29:00 - [433] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Haerr wrote: Hmm... If you have a Caldari Scout can we jump on Dust and try it out? You can find me in #Legio or Scouts United Alas my friend I've been up all night watching this thread like a hawk and now i'm quite sleepy. But i'm def down to try it out soon. Sounds good! :) I have Plasma Cannon Proficiency V, no jk.
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 150	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:36:00 - [434] - Quote I feel changing the gal and caldari scouts suits bonuses to module efficacy bonuses for scan range and profile reduction are a good idea for all scouts. It would mean that armor bricked tanked scouts would be sacrificing more to have more health in firefights. They would have much less profile dampening and scan range without dampening and/or scan precision/range enhancer modules. It would be easier for the assaults suits we have today to scan those armor tanked scouts and evade those armor scouts passive scan sometimes. It would add value to dampening mods and ewar mods for scouts while the value of armor mods may stay the same because scouts would be at an even larger disadvantage in ewar than ever before if they completely filled the slots with armor mods. (it would make light assaults(armor tanked scouts) and scouts (ewar scouts) seem even more different and unique as well).
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2654	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:37:00 - [435] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: shaman oga wrote: Eliminate caldari and gallente scan range bonus. Why those 2 scouts are so effective? Because they can permascan you at almost 40 meters, that is the real advantage of these 2 scout suits. Eliminate the bonus, so they need to fit a range amp, to see so far. I always run at least 1 complex profile dampener on my gal scout, sometime 2 if i notice that a cal scout can scan me. I usually don't tank HP, nerf dampening bonus would be the worst choice imo. Buff active scanners instead. Disagree. We're actually having a pretty long argument about this in Skype but I personally don't think Active Scanners should be some end-all thing against Scouts. As I've said. Active Scanners, and by default the Gallente Logi, should be a general purpose squad-level method of information gathering. The Caldari Scout should be used for precision hunting of targets that dip below the range of the Active Scanners to create a Specialist vs Specialist niche in the game. Both are in the same field of play but with unique uses for both. As far as the Focused Active Scanner, I personally think that it's a problem because it bleeds too much into the Caldari Scout's specialization. At Level 5 a Gallente Logi has an Active Scanner that has 15db precision, which is pretty hard for anything to overcome. I personally just think it's bad whenever a single piece of equipment is comparable a Lvl 5 Caldari Scout with four complex precision enhancers (14.91db) I'd personally like to see the Caldari Scout's range reduced and there's a few ways to go about that: Remove the range bonus on the Cal/Gal Scout suits, change the base range, change the bonus of range amplifiers, etc. EDIT: Re-evaluated my argument with different perspective provided. Hitting the range amplifiers would negatively affect other playstyles, so it's not my opinion the best way to handle the situation is to kill the range bonus on the Caldari Scout because it's too powerful and the Gallente Scout because it contributes absolutely nothing to it's specialization of dipping beneath TacNet. That single piece of equipment took level 5 to get to, and level 5 in the suit to use effectively. Active Scanners are fine as is. Well, except that the snapshots seem broken with their angles. I have to do a slight twirl to get that angle going.
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2654	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:39:00 - [436] - Quote WeapondigitX V7 wrote: I feel changing the gal and caldari scouts suits bonuses to module efficacy bonuses for scan range and profile reduction are a good idea for all scouts. It would mean that armor bricked tanked scouts would be sacrificing more to have more health in firefights. They would have much less profile dampening and scan range without dampening and/or scan precision/range enhancer modules. It would be easier for the assaults suits we have today to scan those armor tanked scouts and evade those armor scouts passive scan sometimes. It would add value to dampening mods and ewar mods for scouts while the value of armor mods may stay the same because scouts would be at an even larger disadvantage in ewar than ever before if they completely filled the slots with armor mods. (it would make light assaults(armor tanked scouts) and scouts (ewar scouts) seem even more different and unique as well). That would require a change to the Minmatar so that they ate forced to equip code breakers and side arm damage mods, same with the Amarr and cardiac regs.
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 150	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:49:00 - [437] - Quote Joel II X wrote: WeapondigitX V7 wrote: I feel changing the gal and caldari scouts suits bonuses to module efficacy bonuses for scan range and profile reduction are a good idea for all scouts. It would mean that armor bricked tanked scouts would be sacrificing more to have more health in firefights. They would have much less profile dampening and scan range without dampening and/or scan precision/range enhancer modules. It would be easier for the assaults suits we have today to scan those armor tanked scouts and evade those armor scouts passive scan sometimes. It would add value to dampening mods and ewar mods for scouts while the value of armor mods may stay the same because scouts would be at an even larger disadvantage in ewar than ever before if they completely filled the slots with armor mods. (it would make light assaults(armor tanked scouts) and scouts (ewar scouts) seem even more different and unique as well). That would require a change to the Minmatar so that they ate forced to equip code breakers and side arm damage mods, same with the Amarr and cardiac regs. It may force them to use those mods if they want to specialize in that role. The idea is to stop brick tanked scouts stepping on the toes of ewar or hacking scouts.
BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4	Posted - 2014.05.24 14:04:00 - [438] - Quote When will Hotfix Alpha being released Blaze
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 394	Posted - 2014.05.24 14:08:00 - [439] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: When will Hotfix Alpha being released Well considering that they haven't even figured out what they're going to do 100% yet, I would assume soonTM Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1164	Posted - 2014.05.24 14:44:00 - [440] - Quote I want to recap real quick. For a gal scout to hide from gal logi focused scans they need to be cloaked and have 3 low slots filled with damps. The problem is, they only have 45 seconds of time to remain invisible. Once scanned it's too late(active scan mechanics keep you lit up on tac net even if your profile drops due to cloaks) This sort of nerf will not allow gal scouts to be invisible. Gal logi WILL spam focused tools to create a window of opportunity that won't allow gal scouts to remain hidden. Therefore no scout will ever remain hidden. Caldari scout could never remain invisible, this is not new. Radar invisibility is not the problem with gal scouts. Again i think it's better off to make it so cloaks hide you from active scans of the same meta level. Allow gal scouts to hide from focused scans. It's mathematically possible and likely going to take a lot of thought. That's the only appropriate way to balance. Lastly, I'll say it again, four slots AND use of an active mod to defeat a single piece of equipment is not balanced. The sacrifice a must take to hide is not worth the cost to do so. Therefore it won't happen because it's not guaranteed to keep them off the radar(active module) Youtube

Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2615	Posted - 2014.05.24 14:49:00 - [441] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: To recap and please don't derail this Cloak Dampening 0-5-10 STD-ADV-PRO MM, AM, GA are unscannable if PRO cloaked with additional dampeners. what does the GA scout dampening bonus of 25% need to be reduced by so GA scouts still have an advantage as the best stealth suit, without being OP? Take into account that the 3 hp/s is also making it very OP and that may be reduced and/or eliminated as well. Please only answer that question for the time being. Thanks It needs to take 2 Dampeners on a Gallente Scout to have both utility and stealth advantage without being Overpowered. While I'd like to see he Gallente Scout's passive repair rate reduced to 1hp/s (istead of removed) 1hp/s gives the suit flavor and by being a lower value than any repair modules it does not give it enough power to be considered a free slot. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3224	Posted - 2014.05.24 14:57:00 - [442] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: I want to recap real quick. For a gal scout to hide from gal logi focused scans they need to be cloaked and have 3 low slots filled with damps. The problem is, they only have 45 seconds of time to remain invisible. Once scanned it's too late(active scan mechanics keep you lit up on tac net even if your profile drops due to cloaks) This sort of nerf will not allow gal scouts to be invisible. Gal logi WILL spam focused tools to create a window of opportunity that won't allow gal scouts to remain hidden. Therefore no scout will ever remain hidden. Caldari scout could never remain invisible, this is not new. Radar invisibility is not the problem with gal scouts. Again i think it's better off to make it so cloaks hide you from active scans of the same meta level. Allow gal scouts to hide from focused scans. It's mathematically possible and likely going to take a lot of thought. That's the only appropriate way to balance. Lastly, I'll say it again, four slots AND use of an active mod to defeat a single piece of equipment is not balanced. The sacrifice a must take to hide is not worth the cost to do so. Therefore it won't happen because it's not guaranteed to keep them off the radar(active module) a gal with 3 damps will be under enough that the cloak bonus doesn't matter. The other scouts wil have 45 seconds to accomplish a goal and regroup. we agree on the 4 slots. Make it 3 slots max. As for the underline..I can't tell if you think this is currently? cause it's not. if you think this has been proposed? I haven't seen Ratatti sign off on a nerf that would make the gal need 3 YET. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4	Posted - 2014.05.24 14:58:00 - [443] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: I want to recap real quick. For a gal scout to hide from gal logi focused scans they need to be cloaked and have 3 low slots filled with damps. The problem is, they only have 45 seconds of time to remain invisible. Once scanned it's too late(active scan mechanics keep you lit up on tac net even if your profile drops due to cloaks) This sort of nerf will not allow gal scouts to be invisible. Gal logi WILL spam focused tools to create a window of opportunity that won't allow gal scouts to remain hidden. Therefore no scout will ever remain hidden. Caldari scout could never remain invisible, this is not new. Radar invisibility is not the problem with gal scouts. Again i think it's better off to make it so cloaks hide you from active scans of the same meta level. Allow gal scouts to hide from focused scans. It's mathematically possible and likely going to take a lot of thought. That's the only appropriate way to balance. Lastly, I'll say it again, four slots AND use of an active mod to defeat a single piece of equipment is not balanced. The sacrifice a must take to hide is not worth the cost to do so. Therefore it won't happen because it's not guaranteed to keep them off the radar(active module) Problem solved by reducing the bonus for the gallente logi so that it would only scan any suits other than the scouts. I mean scouts suppose to be stealthy and invisible from radar. Only scouts can destroy other scouts through their ability to detect other scouts This a balanced approach. Spamming 4 focused scans is just outrageous. They could literally see every single dropsuit and even gallente scouts. I mean who is actaully going to sacrifice all their low slots for dampening. The only way to solve this is to use a a proto scout. I hardly even touch proto suits becuase it's 200,000 a suit. Proto stompers in pub matches is a great issue in this game. Now with this approach I can't even compete with proto people by just using my advance suit. Blaze
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1164	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:13:00 - [444] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: I want to recap real quick. For a gal scout to hide from gal logi focused scans they need to be cloaked and have 3 low slots filled with damps. The problem is, they only have 45 seconds of time to remain invisible. Once scanned it's too late(active scan mechanics keep you lit up on tac net even if your profile drops due to cloaks) This sort of nerf will not allow gal scouts to be invisible. Gal logi WILL spam focused tools to create a window of opportunity that won't allow gal scouts to remain hidden. Therefore no scout will ever remain hidden. Caldari scout could never remain invisible, this is not new. Radar invisibility is not the problem with gal scouts. Again i think it's better off to make it so cloaks hide you from active scans of the same meta level. Allow gal scouts to hide from focused scans. It's mathematically possible and likely going to take a lot of thought. That's the only appropriate way to balance. Lastly, I'll say it again, four slots AND use of an active mod to defeat a single piece of equipment is not balanced. The sacrifice a must take to hide is not worth the cost to do so. Therefore it won't happen because it's not guaranteed to keep them off the radar(active module) a gal with 3 damps will be under enough that the cloak bonus doesn't matter. The other scouts wil have 45 seconds to accomplish a goal and regroup. we agree on the 4 slots. Make it 3 slots max. As for the underline..I can't tell if you think this is currently? cause it's not. if you think this has been proposed? I haven't seen Ratatti sign off on a nerf that would make the gal need 3 YET. CCP Rattati wrote: A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. 14dB means under the focused radar. Youtube
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1195	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:20:00 - [445] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. 14dB means under the focused radar. Apologies, sidebar. Wasn't there some discussion about whether these values ended up being round up by the system, as previously getting down to 17.8 profile would still be scanned by an 18dB scan? Is that still the case, and will 13.5 round up to 14, meaning that the Gal can't get below the scanner? Just curious, as to the best of my knowledge the exact working of the mechanism has never been confirmed by CCP, so most of our calcs are working on assumptions and field work, not the actual details. Knowledge is power
BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:21:00 - [446] - Quote 14dB means under the focused radar.[/quote] Basically proves that gallente logi is the all mighty scanning machine beating the caldari scout. Is this what you call balance to the game. Blaze
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1164	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:25:00 - [447] - Quote Brokerib wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. 14dB means under the focused radar. Apologies, sidebar. Wasn't there some discussion about whether these values ended up being round up by the system, as previously getting down to 17.8 profile would still be scanned by an 18dB scan? Is that still the case, and will 13.5 round up to 14, meaning that the Gal can't get below the scanner? Just curious, as to the best of my knowledge the exact working of the mechanism has never been confirmed by CCP, so most of our calcs are working on assumptions and field work, not the actual details. Correct, dB values round up and ties go to the scanner. Focused scans at 15dB so after rounding you would need to be 14 or under, or 3 slots for damps new proposal. Other suits would need 4 complex damps and cloak.. BlazeXYZ wrote: Basically proves that gallente logi is the all mighty scanning machine beating the caldari scout. Is this what you call balance to the game. Cal scouts can get to 15, but requires their entire fit, as opposed to a single piece of equipment. Youtube
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3224	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:27:00 - [448] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: Basically proves that gallente logi is the all mighty scanning machine beating the caldari scout. Is this what you call balance to the game. facepalm The cal gets 14.91 DB (rounded to 15) the gal focused it 15db CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3224	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:31:00 - [449] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: I want to recap real quick. For a gal scout to hide from gal logi focused scans they need to be cloaked and have 3 low slots filled with damps. The problem is, they only have 45 seconds of time to remain invisible. Once scanned it's too late(active scan mechanics keep you lit up on tac net even if your profile drops due to cloaks) This sort of nerf will not allow gal scouts to be invisible. Gal logi WILL spam focused tools to create a window of opportunity that won't allow gal scouts to remain hidden. Therefore no scout will ever remain hidden. Caldari scout could never remain invisible, this is not new. Radar invisibility is not the problem with gal scouts. Again i think it's better off to make it so cloaks hide you from active scans of the same meta level. Allow gal scouts to hide from focused scans. It's mathematically possible and likely going to take a lot of thought. That's the only appropriate way to balance. Lastly, I'll say it again, four slots AND use of an active mod to defeat a single piece of equipment is not balanced. The sacrifice a must take to hide is not worth the cost to do so. Therefore it won't happen because it's not guaranteed to keep them off the radar(active module) a gal with 3 damps will be under enough that the cloak bonus doesn't matter. The other scouts wil have 45 seconds to accomplish a goal and regroup. we agree on the 4 slots. Make it 3 slots max. As for the underline..I can't tell if you think this is currently? cause it's not. if you think this has been proposed? I haven't seen Ratatti sign off on a nerf that would make the gal need 3 YET. CCP Rattati wrote: A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. 14dB means under the focused radar. Look at the scanning table. 2 complex damps for a gal scout leaves it at 14 db. no 3rd slot. BUT I think in the long run it SHOULD need a 3rd slot to get under the exceptions shotty mentioned. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1164	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:31:00 - [450] - Quote Quick thought after doing some math under current proposal. 15% bonus to damps. Three damps is all thats required for Gal to remain under gal focused scans. Pro cloak never changes any sort of meaningful change. (2 damps + cloak wont get you under) So therefore, gal likely won't ever utilize cloak for damps/stealh. The 10% bonus will only help nongal scouts remain hidden. Haerr's table: https://googledrive.com/host/0B_YSJ6FRJlihcDhjZ3l0LVpVa3c/alpha.html Youtube

BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 5	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:33:00 - [451] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: BlazeXYZ wrote: Basically proves that gallente logi is the all mighty scanning machine beating the caldari scout. Is this what you call balance to the game. facepalm The cal gets 14.91 DB (rounded to 15) the gal focused it 15db Who would sacrifice their whole effing high slot just for precision enhancers. A piece of one equipment doesn't need that much of a sacrifice. Gallente logi still wins. Blaze
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3224	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:34:00 - [452] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Cal scouts can get to 15, but requires their entire fit, as opposed to a single piece of equipment. Okay, so you have four slots or a 360 perma wallhack with 37 meters of range without adding range mods. or that niche specialization that allows that piece of equipment to POTENTIALLY scan a scout for 6.25 seconds You lose out on duration, at least 300 degrees of coverage, and cannot paint targets reliably. with 4 equips (to the 4 slots on the cal 360 perma wallhack) you only get 25 seconds of a minute along with all the other downsides. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3224	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:38:00 - [453] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: BlazeXYZ wrote: Basically proves that gallente logi is the all mighty scanning machine beating the caldari scout. Is this what you call balance to the game. facepalm The cal gets 14.91 DB (rounded to 15) the gal focused it 15db Who would sacrifice their whole effing high slot just for precision enhancers. A piece of one equipment doesn't need that much of a sacrifice. Gallente logi still wins. it's called min maxing. I do it every PC to make sure I have the best chance of picking up anyone entering the city. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13708	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:41:00 - [454] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: Who would sacrifice their whole effing high slot just for precision enhancers. A piece of one equipment doesn't need that much of a sacrifice. Gallente logi still wins. A lot of people in the competitive environment equip full racks of precision enhancers all the time. I'm not really sure why the Gallogi is even considered relevant in an EWAR discussion. The focused active scanner is so generally bad compared to an always on 360 Calscout scan that it's stupid to use one. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1165	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:50:00 - [455] - Quote Actually current proposal is fine if the numbers are true. rather than Rattai's statement (3 damps + cloak). Gal scout only needs 3 damps to remain hidden, no cloak. Cloak has no bearing on any meaningful counters except at proto level against a gal logi focused scans with nongal scouts. The proposal won't change gameplay much for true scouts. Other than the need to fit a damp instead of fit cloak. Making brick tanking less viable. Youtube
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3225	Posted - 2014.05.24 16:03:00 - [456] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Actually current proposal is fine if the numbers are true. rather than Rattai's statement (3 damps + cloak). Gal scout only needs 3 damps to remain hidden, no cloak. Cloak has no bearing on any meaningful counters except at proto level against a gal logi focused scans with nongal scouts. The proposal won't change gameplay much for true scouts. Other than the need to fit a damp instead of fit cloak. Making brick tanking less viable. Success!!!!!!!!!! Huzzah! CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1696	Posted - 2014.05.24 16:21:00 - [457] - Quote Yes I think we are done here. Thanks for the awesome feedback, I hope we can all be happy with this discussion and how it sets the bar for future dev-community interaction. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

SHANN da MAN D3LTA FORC3 C0VEN 244	Posted - 2014.05.24 16:39:00 - [458] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: To recap and please don't derail this Cloak Dampening 0-5-10 STD-ADV-PRO MM, AM, GA are unscannable if PRO cloaked with additional dampeners. what does the GA scout dampening bonus of 25% need to be reduced by so GA scouts still have an advantage as the best stealth suit, without being OP? Take into account that the 3 hp/s is also making it very OP and that may be reduced and/or eliminated as well. Please only answer that question for the time being. Thanks Change GA Scout Dampening Bonus from 25% to 10%-15%. Also change GA Innate Armor Repair from: 3hp/sec for GA Light/Scout 2hp/sec for GA Medium/Assault/Logi 1hp/sec for GA Heavy/Commando/Sentinel to: 1hp/sec for GA Light/Scout 2hp/sec for GA Medium/Assault/Logi 3hp/sec for GA Heavy/Commando/Sentinel (edit) oh crap! I'm too late ... Rattatti closed the discussion 18 min ago ... nothing to see here ... move along
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1166	Posted - 2014.05.24 16:55:00 - [459] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Actually current proposal is fine if the numbers are true. rather than Rattai's statement (3 damps + cloak). Gal scout only needs 3 damps to remain hidden, no cloak. Cloak has no bearing on any meaningful counters except at proto level against a gal logi focused scans with nongal scouts. The proposal won't change gameplay much for true scouts. Other than the need to fit a damp instead of fit cloak. Making brick tanking less viable. Success!!!!!!!!!! Huzzah! Well if the purpose is to make cloaking somewhat niche. Adv cloak provides no tangible benefit other than increased time over basic. Pro cloak is only useful to non-gal scouts for undetectable builds. Cloak will go into the pub only bin after hotfix. PC meta will remain largely unchanged. Gal scouts currently need to fit 2 complex damps to remain hidden, so after hotfix they will need to fit three and won't have cloak to rely upon for its damp bonus allowing them to use those two equipment slots for something else. RIP Cloak. Sad scouts have a role bonus to something that won't likely be used in competitive play. Youtube
Mountain Doody Brave Bunnies Brave Collective 42	Posted - 2014.05.24 17:00:00 - [460] - Quote please fix stats including cpu/pg and slot layout on Black Eagle scout suits

Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 883	Posted - 2014.05.24 17:02:00 - [461] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Rattati read my post above yours. Basically states answers to your current changes. Why should a scout sacrifice their ENTIRE fitting just to remain hidden from a single piece if equipment. To not have his cake and eat it too. The CA scout decided to specialize and sacrifice their whole fit to find scouts. The GA scout decided to specialize and sacrifice their whole fit to escape all scanning. Not to mention, it is not his entire fitting, there is a high and a low slot available if I am not mistaken. Rattati please consider the fact that one cal scout in a squad of six can sacrifice his fitting to scan and negate an entire team unless they dampen. Squad vision gives the cal scout a huge bonus that you seem to be ignoring. CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 754	Posted - 2014.05.24 18:38:00 - [462] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Yes I think we are done here. Thanks for the awesome feedback, I hope we can all be happy with this discussion and how it sets the bar for future dev-community interaction. Was something changed ftom the original proposal? How about a TL:DR then? Because, that's why.
Haerr Legio DXIV 709	Posted - 2014.05.24 19:25:00 - [463] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Yes I think we are done here. Thanks for the awesome feedback, I hope we can all be happy with this discussion and how it sets the bar for future dev-community interaction. Was something changed ftom the original proposal? How about a TL:DR then? Pretty please this. +1 I have Plasma Cannon Proficiency V, no jk.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2131	Posted - 2014.05.24 19:33:00 - [464] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: BlazeXYZ wrote: Who would sacrifice their whole effing high slot just for precision enhancers. A piece of one equipment doesn't need that much of a sacrifice. Gallente logi still wins. A lot of people in the competitive environment equip full racks of precision enhancers all the time. I'm not really sure why the Gallogi is even considered relevant in an EWAR discussion. The focused active scanner is so generally bad compared to an always on 360 Calscout scan that it's stupid to use one. Beat me to the punch Arkena, and did so in a more succinct way that I'd have managed. +1 Cross EDIT: Also this Haerr wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Yes I think we are done here. Thanks for the awesome feedback, I hope we can all be happy with this discussion and how it sets the bar for future dev-community interaction. Was something changed ftom the original proposal? How about a TL:DR then? Pretty please this. +1 Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Starfire Revo Inner.Hell 288	Posted - 2014.05.24 19:43:00 - [465] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Yes I think we are done here. Thanks for the awesome feedback, I hope we can all be happy with this discussion and how it sets the bar for future dev-community interaction. 0:46 to 0:49 I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1639	Posted - 2014.05.24 20:05:00 - [466] - Quote I am glad we reached a compromise that seemed to address all sides of the issue. Now if we can just add the dinosaurs... "I've made a huge mistake." -G.O.B. Bluth
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 100	Posted - 2014.05.24 20:28:00 - [467] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I am glad we reached a compromise that seemed to address all sides of the issue. Now if we can just add the dinosaurs... In case you were wondering, this character is a Gal Scout. GûéGûäGûà /Gûî /Gûî /Gûî Gûî GûêGûêGûàGûâGûé IGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê] GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñn++
crazy space 1 GunFall Mobilization 2562	Posted - 2014.05.24 21:42:00 - [468] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Yes I think we are done here. Thanks for the awesome feedback, I hope we can all be happy with this discussion and how it sets the bar for future dev-community interaction. Was something changed ftom the original proposal? How about a TL:DR then? They didn't change anything and won't listen to our feedback
Al the destroyer NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 140	Posted - 2014.05.24 21:42:00 - [469] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Yes I think we are done here. Thanks for the awesome feedback, I hope we can all be happy with this discussion and how it sets the bar for future dev-community interaction. You are to be commended sir! You have set the bar high thank you Still playing having more fun than ever cuz IDGAF.
crazy space GunFall Mobilization 2562	Posted - 2014.05.24 21:42:00 - [470] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Yes I think we are done here. Thanks for the awesome feedback, I hope we can all be happy with this discussion and how it sets the bar for future dev-community interaction. Was something changed ftom the original proposal? How about a TL:DR then? They didn't change anything and won't listen to our feedback

Tamori Orn Nos Nothi 34	Posted - 2014.05.24 22:19:00 - [471] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. Here is the premise 1) I want to encourage stealth players to go to proto cloak 2) GA scout will be the only scout that is completely unscannable 3) Not let GA scouts be the only stealth scouts and use cloaks So, I have been told, I can verify when I am back at work, that if we change the cloak to be at 10% dampening instead of 5% at PRO, at least 3 stealth scouts are viable with cloak, GA, CA and MM. I think that's fine, I don't think everyone should be equally good at everthing. Amarr will get a look soon. Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terribly close to 16. Since I want the only thing to beat the 100% dedicated scout scanner to be a 100% dedicated stealth scout. A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. That means we can reduce the GA Scout bonus to 15% from 25% and still stay under the CA scout at 15.3 or 16dB. Thereby forcing the dedicate GA scout to sacrifice a low in most cases, so that he can't spend it on armor. For the coup de grace, we can reduce the range of the CA passive scan a little bit because it's unnecessarily good. Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. This looks promising, and I (and many others I am sure) appreciate you listening to feedback and iterating on this. For those of us who have been scouts since the beginning, we want to not be FOTM anymore, but have spent enough time buried in near obscurity prior to that. I have to do the math on fitting the proto cloak, as to date that it is the only reason I haven't skilled into it. The scaling of the damp bonus makes sense, but it may be worthwhile to consider making it good enough for AM and MM scouts unscannable with the cloak as it is -temporary-. If I am reading your post right, the GA is only unscannable by the best scanners while cloaked (so temporarily) now. If I get a chance I'll run some numbers to have a more complete proposal. Makes sense to make the damp the ultimate winner due to shared property of scans... and for the damp-win ability to be cloak based because it is temporary. It gives a good back and forth feel for 1) Upping the e-war strength of fits based on opponents e-war strength (escalation) and 2) Serious cloakers coming in and out of TACnet for prepared scanning squads. Again, thank you for the iteration and community involvement with this process. I am the "Great King" of the Semites. I am King of Kish, Lagash, Umma, Uruk, overlord of Sumer, Elam, Mari, and Yarmuti
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 722	Posted - 2014.05.24 23:24:00 - [472] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Yes I think we are done here. Thanks for the awesome feedback, I hope we can all be happy with this discussion and how it sets the bar for future dev-community interaction. What about the responses to your last question and the related issues raised? For example, making it harder to fit a prototype focused scanner? If a scout has to make lots of sacrifices to hide from it, why shouldn't the person using that scanner need to make sacrifices too? Another related and seemingly unnoticed/unreplied suggestion (to you) was to remove the scan radius bonus and replace that with a cloak duration bonus, so that it has 2 bonuses for hiding (dampening & cloak duration) instead of only having a duration bonus like you suggested earlier. This would make the Gal scout not a bonus that's too similar to the Cal scout too. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3251	Posted - 2014.05.25 00:35:00 - [473] - Quote Arkena and some other dismissed the cloak duration suggestion early on. Just to let you know. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1732	Posted - 2014.05.25 00:40:00 - [474] - Quote In summary Overall we generally agree that 1)GA scout could fit too much because of his native dampening 2)GA scout also got a free repair module on top of that 3)GA passive scan bonus doesnt necessarily make sense for role 4)CA scouts passive scan (fondly known as wallhacking) a tad too much 5)Cloak gameplay with dampening is a key factor in fun ewar 6)The need to specialize is enforced in a big way with power graduation 7)To not force equipment selection by having built in scout bonuses for the cloak specifically (such as duration for GA) Cloak keeps dampening, and at better rates than we originally proposed, 0-5-10 instead of 0-2.5-5 GA scout damp bonus to 3% per level instead of 5% for a maximum bonus of 15% Reducing CA passive scan to 3% for 5% Reducing GA passive scan to 1% from 5% (I would think this gets changed to something more fitting later) Reducing GA regen to 1/hp from 3/hp *Duration changes stay the same as original proposal with the same recharge ratio as the old cloak Updated Hotfix Alpha Numbers No changes to shared group scans No changes to Gallogi FS, it is a very narrow scan with a limited steatlh counter by another role than CA scouts. I want to see how that plays out. No changes so bonuses affect modules fitted (a much bigger change) I have updated the google docs accordingly "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3252	Posted - 2014.05.25 00:46:00 - [475] - Quote Awesome. Can't wait to see how it plays out. And I think we all hope for a further look at rebalancing the e-war scene further in the future. <3 CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 215	Posted - 2014.05.25 01:00:00 - [476] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: In summary Overall we generally agree that 1)GA scout could fit too much because of his native dampening 2)GA scout also got a free repair module on top of that 3)GA passive scan bonus doesnt necessarily make sense for role 4)CA scouts passive scan (fondly known as wallhacking) a tad too much 5)Cloak gameplay with dampening is a key factor in fun ewar 6)The need to specialize is enforced in a big way with power graduation 7)To not force equipment selection by having built in scout bonuses for the cloak specifically (such as duration for GA) Cloak keeps dampening, and at better rates than we originally proposed, 0-5-10 instead of 0-2.5-5 GA scout damp bonus to 3% per level instead of 5% for a maximum bonus of 15% Reducing CA passive scan to 3% from 5% Reducing GA passive scan to 1% from 5% (I would think this gets changed to something more fitting later) Reducing GA regen to 1/hp from 3/hp *Duration changes stay the same as original proposal with the same recharge ratio as the old cloak Updated Hotfix Alpha Numbers No changes to shared group scans No changes to Gallogi FS, it is a very narrow scan with a limited steatlh counter by another role than CA scouts. I want to see how that plays out. No changes so bonuses affect modules fitted (a much bigger change) I have updated the google docs accordingly Awesome. Now, when does this hotfix go live? :-) Duct tape 2.0 - Have WD-40; will travel.
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1526	Posted - 2014.05.25 01:04:00 - [477] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: In summary Overall we generally agree that 1)GA scout could fit too much because of his native dampening 2)GA scout also got a free repair module on top of that 3)GA passive scan bonus doesnt necessarily make sense for role 4)CA scouts passive scan (fondly known as wallhacking) a tad too much 5)Cloak gameplay with dampening is a key factor in fun ewar 6)The need to specialize is enforced in a big way with power graduation 7)To not force equipment selection by having built in scout bonuses for the cloak specifically (such as duration for GA) Cloak keeps dampening, and at better rates than we originally proposed, 0-5-10 instead of 0-2.5-5 GA scout damp bonus to 3% per level instead of 5% for a maximum bonus of 15% Reducing CA passive scan to 3% from 5% Reducing GA passive scan to 1% from 5% (I would think this gets changed to something more fitting later) Reducing GA regen to 1/hp from 3/hp *Duration changes stay the same as original proposal with the same recharge ratio as the old cloak Updated Hotfix Alpha Numbers No changes to shared group scans No changes to Gallogi FS, it is a very narrow scan with a limited steatlh counter by another role than CA scouts. I want to see how that plays out. No changes so bonuses affect modules fitted (a much bigger change) I have updated the google docs accordingly Ryi 1 rep is un noticible. Closed beta vet.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2376	Posted - 2014.05.25 03:10:00 - [478] - Quote just could use some updated cloak cycle time info. Also, it looks like you are working late/super early on a weekend. While we appreciate your effort for your job, we also appreciate you as a human being and hope you are taking appropriate resting time. We are happy that you like to make our game better. But hopefully, healthy and happy devs probably make better design decisions, so enjoy your off time well when you get it!
BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 6	Posted - 2014.05.25 03:13:00 - [479] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: In summary Overall we generally agree that 1)GA scout could fit too much because of his native dampening 2)GA scout also got a free repair module on top of that 3)GA passive scan bonus doesnt necessarily make sense for role 4)CA scouts passive scan (fondly known as wallhacking) a tad too much 5)Cloak gameplay with dampening is a key factor in fun ewar 6)The need to specialize is enforced in a big way with power graduation 7)To not force equipment selection by having built in scout bonuses for the cloak specifically (such as duration for GA) Cloak keeps dampening, and at better rates than we originally proposed, 0-5-10 instead of 0-2.5-5 GA scout damp bonus to 3% per level instead of 5% for a maximum bonus of 15% Reducing CA passive scan to 3% from 5% Reducing GA passive scan to 1% from 5% (I would think this gets changed to something more fitting later) Reducing GA regen to 1/hp from 3/hp *Duration changes stay the same as original proposal with the same recharge ratio as the old cloak Updated Hotfix Alpha Numbers No changes to shared group scans No changes to Gallogi FS, it is a very narrow scan with a limited steatlh counter by another role than CA scouts. I want to see how that plays out. No changes so bonuses affect modules fitted (a much bigger change) I have updated the google docs accordingly So with all these changes are you guys giving back all our sp from the things your changing so that we could specialize in what we decide to put sp on. And also when is the release. Blaze
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3258	Posted - 2014.05.25 03:18:00 - [480] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: So with all these changes are you guys giving back all our sp from the things your changing so that we could specialize in what we decide to put sp on. And also when is the release. Lol i hope not. Bonuses in the past for cal assault and cal logi were changed and tweaked and no respec. No respecs for hotfix alpha IMO CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

DozersMouse XIII Inner.Hell 824	Posted - 2014.05.25 03:27:00 - [481] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: In summary Overall we generally agree that 1)GA scout could fit too much because of his native dampening 2)GA scout also got a free repair module on top of that 3)GA passive scan bonus doesnt necessarily make sense for role 4)CA scouts passive scan (fondly known as wallhacking) a tad too much 5)Cloak gameplay with dampening is a key factor in fun ewar 6)The need to specialize is enforced in a big way with power graduation 7)To not force equipment selection by having built in scout bonuses for the cloak specifically (such as duration for GA) Cloak keeps dampening, and at better rates than we originally proposed, 0-5-10 instead of 0-2.5-5 GA scout damp bonus to 3% per level instead of 5% for a maximum bonus of 15% Reducing CA passive scan to 3% from 5% Reducing GA passive scan to 1% from 5% (I would think this gets changed to something more fitting later) Reducing GA regen to 1/hp from 3/hp Duration changes stay the same as original proposal with the same recharge ratio as the old cloak Updated Hotfix Alpha Numbers No changes to shared group scans No changes to Gallogi FS, it is a very narrow scan with a limited steatlh counter by another role than CA scouts. I want to see how that plays out. No changes so bonuses affect modules fitted (a much bigger change) I have updated the google docs accordingly CCP Rattati you are doing an awesome ****** job! I love what i'm seeing here. don't harm the hamsters
BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 6	Posted - 2014.05.25 03:29:00 - [482] - Quote I still don't get the idea of reducing the passive scans for gal scout. I honestly don't think its an issue and that only the dampening bonus is an issue that makes the scout OP. Do you guys think the passive scans on the gallente scout is OP. If not why change it. Blaze
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3258	Posted - 2014.05.25 03:34:00 - [483] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: I still don't get the idea of reducing the passive scans for gal scout. I honestly don't think its an issue and that only the dampening bonus is an issue that makes the scout OP. Do you guys think the passive scans on the gallente scout is OP. If not why change it. I mean...I dont think it's a major factor...but here's a question. How does it fit in with what the gal's specialty is? What is the gal's specialty role? In what way does the gal scout deserve that bonus? CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 6	Posted - 2014.05.25 03:43:00 - [484] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: BlazeXYZ wrote: I still don't get the idea of reducing the passive scans for gal scout. I honestly don't think its an issue and that only the dampening bonus is an issue that makes the scout OP. Do you guys think the passive scans on the gallente scout is OP. If not why change it. I mean...I dont think it's a major factor...but here's a question. How does it fit in with what the gal's specialty is? What is the gal's specialty role? In what way does the gal scout deserve that bonus? I agree with the role and the speciality of a gallente scout. What I really mean is that in this approach caldari scout looks more appealing to skill into. I prefer keeping the passive scan bonus to 5 or reduce to 3 and keep it same with the caldari. Blaze
Zaria Min Deir Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 681	Posted - 2014.05.25 04:04:00 - [485] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cloak keeps dampening, and at better rates than we originally proposed, 0-5-10 instead of 0-2.5-5 GA scout damp bonus to 3% per level instead of 5% for a maximum bonus of 15% Reducing CA passive scan to 3% from 5% Reducing GA passive scan to 1% from 5% (I would think this gets changed to something more fitting later) Reducing GA regen to 1/hp from 3/hp Duration changes stay the same as original proposal with the same recharge ratio as the old cloak Ok, here's my issue. I'm going to ignore the fact that all of these conversations are distilling the scout role (particularly the gal scout role) into something that inherently MUST use the cloak, so all must be balanced around the cloak. I could go into detail exactly what I think of that and the cloak, but I am trying to be civil here ;) However. 3 hp/s regen is too much? really? for the scout suit of the race that you guys, when designing and implementing your long awaited suit rebalance and update (very, very long awaited. you certainly had time to work on it) decided should have those inbuilt reps as per the lore. Fine. 3 hp/s is too much for a scout, apparently because "it's a free adv rep module". Then, for the love of all that is holy, explain to me why the Cal scout needs its insanely high shield regen? That, btw, is also a free module, one would have to use proto energizer on a Cal assault to reach even comparable shield regen. Have you* considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
DozersMouse XIII Inner.Hell 824	Posted - 2014.05.25 04:24:00 - [486] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Cloak keeps dampening, and at better rates than we originally proposed, 0-5-10 instead of 0-2.5-5 GA scout damp bonus to 3% per level instead of 5% for a maximum bonus of 15% Reducing CA passive scan to 3% from 5% Reducing GA passive scan to 1% from 5% (I would think this gets changed to something more fitting later) Reducing GA regen to 1/hp from 3/hp *Duration changes stay the same as original proposal with the same recharge ratio as the old cloak Ok, here's my issue. I'm going to ignore the fact that all of these conversations are distilling the scout role (particularly the gal scout role) into something that inherently MUST use the cloak, so all must be balanced around the cloak. I could go into detail exactly what I think of that and the cloak, but I am trying to be civil here ;) However. 3 hp/s regen is too much? really? for the scout suit of the race that you guys, when designing and implementing your long awaited suit rebalance and update (very, very long awaited. you certainly had time to work on it) decided should have those inbuilt reps as per the lore. Fine. 3 hp/s is too much for a scout, apparently because "it's a free adv rep module". Then, for the love of all that is holy, explain to me why the Cal scout needs its insanely high shield regen? That, btw, is also a free module, one would have to use proto energizer on a Cal assault to reach even comparable shield regen. makes a great point don't harm the hamsters
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion Zero-Day 229	Posted - 2014.05.25 04:25:00 - [487] - Quote While I love most of the changes, I have to say you are hitting to hard and to fast with the nerf hammer on the Gal, yes the Galente do need to be toned down, but I do not feel that the Galente should get hammered this much in all the fields that they have bonuses in, this to me feels like overkill. I would rather it be half of the proposed this time, and if it is still being that bad figure out what is going on and adjust accordingly.
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1205	Posted - 2014.05.25 04:31:00 - [488] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: In summary Overall we generally agree that 1)GA scout could fit too much because of his native dampening 2)GA scout also got a free repair module on top of that 3)GA passive scan bonus doesnt necessarily make sense for role 4)CA scouts passive scan (fondly known as wallhacking) a tad too much 5)Cloak gameplay with dampening is a key factor in fun ewar 6)The need to specialize is enforced in a big way with power graduation 7)To not force equipment selection by having built in scout bonuses for the cloak specifically (such as duration for GA) Cloak keeps dampening, and at better rates than we originally proposed, 0-5-10 instead of 0-2.5-5 GA scout damp bonus to 3% per level instead of 5% for a maximum bonus of 15% Reducing CA passive scan to 3% from 5% Reducing GA passive scan to 1% from 5% (I would think this gets changed to something more fitting later) Reducing GA regen to 1/hp from 3/hp *Duration changes stay the same as original proposal with the same recharge ratio as the old cloak Updated Hotfix Alpha Numbers No changes to shared group scans No changes to Gallogi FS, it is a very narrow scan with a limited steatlh counter by another role than CA scouts. I want to see how that plays out. No changes so bonuses affect modules fitted (a much bigger change) I have updated the google docs accordingly Thanks for the discussion on balancing Scouts CCP Rattati. Hopefully the Alpha patch will go some way towards reducing the abuse of the Scout frame. But it's only half of the equation. For a complete solution, even if only as a temporary fix, the Assault frames need a buff to make them competitive. I know you've only just gotten off the Scout train, but some suggestions below. [suggestion] Assault suit changes/medium balance Knowledge is power
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 883	Posted - 2014.05.25 04:36:00 - [489] - Quote I hate having the suit you skill into get changed so much. Wish I was cal scout now like the majority of PC scouts I see. CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3262	Posted - 2014.05.25 04:37:00 - [490] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: I hate having the suit you skill into get changed so much. Wish I was cal scout now like the majority of PC scouts I see. Rofl, didn't you see? 50% of scout use if gal. Being unscannable with only 1 low slot > all. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3130	Posted - 2014.05.25 05:09:00 - [491] - Quote Even with the new numbers caldari scouts cant see a galente scout (both not using modules). And even then galente gets the upper hand cause damps>precision enhancers. Then you add the +10% damp effect of a proto cloak on it and we are circle jerking.
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 883	Posted - 2014.05.25 06:37:00 - [492] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Ares 514 wrote: I hate having the suit you skill into get changed so much. Wish I was cal scout now like the majority of PC scouts I see. Rofl, didn't you see? 50% of scout use if gal. Being unscannable with only 1 low slot > all. I have faced 10+ cal scout in a PC battle, never seen that with gal scout. CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 884	Posted - 2014.05.25 06:39:00 - [493] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Even with the new numbers caldari scouts cant see a galente scout (both not using modules). And even then galente gets the upper hand cause damps>precision enhancers. Then you add the +10% damp effect of a proto cloak on it and we are circle jerking. Let me say this one last time. That one cal scout will **** over the fitting of every scout on the other team that approaches the cal scouts squad. Squad vision breaks any semblance of balance because his five buddies don't need any precision while any gal scout will be severely hampered when fighting his squad. CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3265	Posted - 2014.05.25 07:02:00 - [494] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Ares 514 wrote: I hate having the suit you skill into get changed so much. Wish I was cal scout now like the majority of PC scouts I see. Rofl, didn't you see? 50% of scout use if gal. Being unscannable with only 1 low slot > all. I have faced 10+ cal scout in a PC battle, never seen that with gal scout. Cool beans, doesn't change the data homie. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
DozersMouse XIII Inner.Hell 827	Posted - 2014.05.25 07:07:00 - [495] - Quote completely take the scan range bonus away from the gal scout and give it to the amarr scout don't harm the hamsters
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1531	Posted - 2014.05.25 07:08:00 - [496] - Quote Cal scout isn't as good as gal scout zatara. Closed beta vet.
Orion Sanjeet The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 84	Posted - 2014.05.25 08:13:00 - [497] - Quote Give an e-hp reduction for each dampener used. I am fine with the invisibility however to require an entire clip from a mass driver to kill one scout is to much (I have been using a mass driver since it has a 4 round clip, I do NOT miss). Also this isn't a second stat. FIX BEING ABLE TO SHOOT FROM CLOAK!!!! 2 seconds (minimum) after switching from cloak for any equipment or weapons to be able to be used. Also, you get to choose 2, preferably one that the gal scout gets to keep. 1) Omnipresent (Highest non-vehicle top speed) 2) Omnipotent (Can kill a heavy in 3 shots and can roughly 3/4 the armor of one) 3) Omniscient (Can see all and be seen by none) Because the gal scout is currently all three. I'm here to drop links and rep bitches, and I'm just about outta links.
Orion Sanjeet The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 84	Posted - 2014.05.25 08:14:00 - [498] - Quote Also 15 seconds (minimum) between the deactivation of cloak and reactivation of it. I'm here to drop links and rep bitches, and I'm just about outta links.
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 760	Posted - 2014.05.25 08:15:00 - [499] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: In summary Overall we generally agree that 1)GA scout could fit too much because of his native dampening 2)GA scout also got a free repair module on top of that 3)GA passive scan bonus doesnt necessarily make sense for role 4)CA scouts passive scan (fondly known as wallhacking) a tad too much 5)Cloak gameplay with dampening is a key factor in fun ewar 6)The need to specialize is enforced in a big way with power graduation 7)To not force equipment selection by having built in scout bonuses for the cloak specifically (such as duration for GA) Cloak keeps dampening, and at better rates than we originally proposed, 0-5-10 instead of 0-2.5-5 GA scout damp bonus to 3% per level instead of 5% for a maximum bonus of 15% Reducing CA passive scan to 3% from 5% Reducing GA passive scan to 1% from 5% (I would think this gets changed to something more fitting later) Reducing GA regen to 1/hp from 3/hp *Duration changes stay the same as original proposal with the same recharge ratio as the old cloak Updated Hotfix Alpha Numbers No changes to shared group scans No changes to Gallogi FS, it is a very narrow scan with a limited steatlh counter by another role than CA scouts. I want to see how that plays out. No changes so bonuses affect modules fitted (a much bigger change) I have updated the google docs accordingly While I appreciate you taking time to work out balance here, You have just gutted my role with the Gallente scout. The dampening level might be ok, will have to see as I have not worked it out. However changing the rep to 1hp/sec seems a little harsh. On top of that the passive scan to 1% per level - are you joking me!? Thats way too low. So much for my 3-4x passive scan range fits.... what the hell am I meant to do now... brick tank like everyone else? great...... Why does the Gallente scout now get a worse passive range than the Caldari? I always thought it was passive scan range (On the Gallente with 3 or 4 x low slots) VS Caldaris better scan resolution (Lower dB pickup) Damn I'm not happy about that CCP :(
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 762	Posted - 2014.05.25 08:20:00 - [500] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: I hate having the suit you skill into get changed so much. Wish I was cal scout now like the majority of PC scouts I see. I'm just annoyed because my role of long range passive scan is now dead on my Gallente scout. What options are left? Brick tanking? Dampening...? Great. I think the passive scan range on the Gall scout is now going to be similar if not lower than it was before the 1.8 changes.....

Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect 1260	Posted - 2014.05.25 08:41:00 - [501] - Quote Utterly brutal quintuple nerf on the gal scout (profile, scan, regen, armour, cloak). When is this happening? I name that day Corridor Camping Day, as it seems that i'll be trapped in my sentinel from that date forward.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15186	Posted - 2014.05.25 09:14:00 - [502] - Quote I am going to say this now and most of you are not going to like it. The idea of a mechanic invulnerability through ingame things should not or ever been a thing. The game of absolutions is not eve themed for the universe enough to warrant such gimmicks. While you can point to the cloak being this way in eve; you have to remember this is a long time problem along with local in null that has turned into a deadlocked feature planning on resolution. Just because you got 0.001+ over another players counter number shouldn't account for this slight margin of error; this is the whole reason why sharpshooter was removed in the first place and weapon falloff was brought in. Scanners and Detection should follow a similar route to eve's lock system. Greater the differences in scan vs stealth the longer it takes for one to appear on that target's radar; this will ultimately require a rebranding work on acceptable detection rates at various sizes/roles as well as sensor falloff strength for those sizes/roles as well as detection speeds expected. A heavy could be blind as a bat but if a scout stays behind him for a minute he may just get noticed. Throw damps on and you will not get seen as quickly as someone who is in the nude. Perform an action and mayhaps increase the rate of detection (firing your gun/ activating your ability) While this type of idea is likely impossible for dust 514. Don't expect the thinking of absolutions to survive into Legion. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1531	Posted - 2014.05.25 09:19:00 - [503] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I am going to say this now and most of you are not going to like it. The idea of a mechanic invulnerability through ingame things should not or ever been a thing. The game of absolutions is not eve themed for the universe enough to warrant such gimmicks. While you can point to the cloak being this way in eve; you have to remember this is a long time problem along with local in null that has turned into a deadlocked feature planning on resolution. Just because you got 0.001+ over another players counter number shouldn't account for this slight margin of error; this is the whole reason why sharpshooter was removed in the first place and weapon falloff was brought in. Scanners and Detection should follow a similar route to eve's lock system. Greater the differences in scan vs stealth the longer it takes for one to appear on that target's radar; this will ultimately require a rebranding work on acceptable detection rates at various sizes/roles as well as sensor falloff strength for those sizes/roles as well as detection speeds expected. A heavy could be blind as a bat but if a scout stays behind him for a minute he may just get noticed. Throw damps on and you will not get seen as quickly as someone who is in the nude. Perform an action and mayhaps increase the rate of detection (firing your gun/ activating your ability) While this type of idea is likely impossible for dust 514. Don't expect the thinking of absolutions to survive into Legion. Heres the thing There needs to be a way to completely avoid wall hacks, it's juat a ******** mechanic for bad players or abusers There needs to be a way for scouts to avoid the op wall hacks, again, wall hacks are plain stupid. Closed beta vet.
Haerr Legio DXIV 717	Posted - 2014.05.25 09:20:00 - [504] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: snipthis is the whole reason why sharpshooter was removed in the first place and weapon falloff was brought in. Speaking of the sharpshooter skills, are there any plans on balancing them between the rifles? Iron Wolf Saber wrote: snipDon't expect the thinking of absolutions to survive into Legion. Good.+1 I have Plasma Cannon Proficiency V, no jk.
Zaria Min Deir Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 686	Posted - 2014.05.25 10:19:00 - [505] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Give an e-hp reduction for each dampener used. I am fine with the invisibility however to require an entire clip from a mass driver to kill one scout is to much (I have been using a mass driver since it has a 4 round clip, I do NOT miss). Also this isn't a second stat. FIX BEING ABLE TO SHOOT FROM CLOAK!!!! 2 seconds (minimum) after switching from cloak for any equipment or weapons to be able to be used. Also, you get to choose 2, preferably one that the gal scout gets to keep. 1) Omnipresent (Highest non-vehicle top speed) 2) Omnipotent (Can kill a heavy in 3 shots and can roughly 3/4 the armor of one) 3) Omniscient (Can see all and be seen by none) Because the gal scout is currently all three. How on earth does it take a full clip from a mass driver to kill a scout (if you're not missing at all)? Please explain. Also. 1) I guess the Gal scout CAN be speed tanked to be the fastest suit... at which point it will have no armour or damps in the lows. 2) That's the shotgun, not the suit. Also, with that much armour on a gal scout you have relatively slow speed and no other utilities (like damps) in the lows. 3) Can see all (ish) if high slots are used up by precision enhancers (nothing wrong with that) but that combined with dampeners to be completely under the radar does not amount to very high HP and speed, though some of either, sure. I just don't see how you think that the gal scout can be 2 of these extremes at once, let alone all 3... Wait, do you even Gal scout, bro? ;) (BTW, don't anyone start on me how the gal scout should make those sacrifices and shouldn't be able to do all of that at once, I certainly don't think it should either, my point is it isn't all of those things at once now either) And, further again, the shotgun =/= the gal scout, the cloak =/= the gal scout. A suit should not be balanced solely around the assumption of one weapon or one equipment that might be used on it. But, yes, being able to shoot from cloak and then, even better, being able to instantly recloak is utter bullshit. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
m621 zma Seraphim Initiative.. 125	Posted - 2014.05.25 10:53:00 - [506] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: But, yes, being able to shoot from cloak and then, even better, being able to instantly recloak is utter bullshit. Get Gud scrub
m621 zma Seraphim Initiative.. 128	Posted - 2014.05.25 10:59:00 - [507] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Don't expect the thinking of absolutions to survive into Legion. sigh absolutes but you're right, we won't be forgiving you at any point in time.
Zaria Min Deir Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 693	Posted - 2014.05.25 11:00:00 - [508] - Quote m621 zma wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: But, yes, being able to shoot from cloak and then, even better, being able to instantly recloak is utter bullshit. Get Gud scrub How's the murder taxi business going nowadays, darling, I haven't been run over by you in what feels like months PS. Miss you <3 Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
m621 zma Seraphim Initiative.. 128	Posted - 2014.05.25 11:02:00 - [509] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: m621 zma wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: But, yes, being able to shoot from cloak and then, even better, being able to instantly recloak is utter bullshit. Get Gud scrub How's the murder taxi business going nowadays, darling, I haven't been run over by you in what feels like months Yeah, CCP need to fix thatGÇª oh waitGÇª
Dalmont Legrand 427	Posted - 2014.05.25 11:31:00 - [510] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: You're going to have to change more than one stat. You pretty much have to rework every scout. This isn't just about the gallente scout. It's about ALL scouts. You have to think about how this cloaking change will effect EVERY scout. Do not balance around pubs and general laziness. Balance around a competitive environment where people will counter something. If every scout can be countered easily then no one will run e-war. Previously scouts were practically useless in PC because the tacnet system in this game is ridiculous. A scanned scout is a dead scout. If every scout can be scanned there is no point in running scout because it has no role. But then there will be battles of scouts only imagine that, map is empty but all points are being re hacked every minute. XD The best is yet to come CPM1 Candidate

ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 765	Posted - 2014.05.25 11:39:00 - [511] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Orion Sanjeet wrote: Give an e-hp reduction for each dampener used. I am fine with the invisibility however to require an entire clip from a mass driver to kill one scout is to much (I have been using a mass driver since it has a 4 round clip, I do NOT miss). Also this isn't a second stat. FIX BEING ABLE TO SHOOT FROM CLOAK!!!! 2 seconds (minimum) after switching from cloak for any equipment or weapons to be able to be used. Also, you get to choose 2, preferably one that the gal scout gets to keep. 1) Omnipresent (Highest non-vehicle top speed) 2) Omnipotent (Can kill a heavy in 3 shots and can roughly 3/4 the armor of one) 3) Omniscient (Can see all and be seen by none) Because the gal scout is currently all three. How on earth does it take a full clip from a mass driver to kill a scout (if you're not missing at all)? Please explain. Also. 1) I guess the Gal scout CAN be speed tanked to be the fastest suit... at which point it will have no armour or damps in the lows. 2) That's the shotgun, not the suit. Also, with that much armour on a gal scout you have relatively slow speed and no other utilities (like damps) in the lows. 3) Can see all (ish) if high slots are used up by precision enhancers (nothing wrong with that) but that combined with dampeners to be completely under the radar does not amount to very high HP and speed, though some of either, sure. I just don't see how you think that the gal scout can be 2 of these extremes at once, let alone all 3... Wait, do you even Gal scout, bro? ;) (BTW, don't anyone start on me how the gal scout should make those sacrifices and shouldn't be able to do all of that at once, I certainly don't think it should either, my point is it isn't all of those things at once now either) And, further again, the shotgun =/= the gal scout, the cloak =/= the gal scout. A suit should not be balanced solely around the assumption of one weapon or one equipment that might be used on it. But, yes, being able to shoot from cloak and then, even better, being able to instantly recloak is utter bullshit. This - I'm fed up of my roles being nerfed into the ground because of what a few do with items I use. CCP need to keep every role a suit has in mind. The longer this goes on the more pigeonholed the roles are starting to feel. Granted the shooting from cloak is too fast and I understand tweaks need to be made but damn what is going to be left for the Gallente scout!? 1st - way back when in Beta I tanked, I unlocked that lovely Surya then shortly after it was removed - my tanks got nerfed, so I tried out the Tac AR before it was 'the thing' and that got nerfed. I kept using my Caldari assault / logi (Before it was considered op) then they got nerfed. I switched over to scouting and thought - this could NEVER be nerfed in the state its in! [How wrong was I] I ran Minmatar and Gallente scouts, then we got another dropsuit respec recently so I decided to just stick with the Gallente scout as the Minmatar scout looked weak and lacking and it was a toss up for me between Caldari scout or Gallente. I thought I would stick with what I know. Now after all that my passive scan fit is being nerfed by default! CCP is even talking about working on Sentinel stats, I hope to god they dont nerf my shield fit forge gun Caldari sentinel as well cuz this really is taking the **** now lol. How unlucky can one guy get in this game?
Flyingconejo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1030	Posted - 2014.05.25 13:44:00 - [512] - Quote About the Gal scouts: Auto repair nerf: The Auto-Repair for the Gallente Scout was too powerful,.Like the old Logi suits, it gave the Gal scout a free slot. This change was completely warranted. Scan Range bonus nerf: The passive scanning of the current scout suits is too powerful, so I agree that it had to be balanced somehow. The scan range nerf to the Gallente scout could have been lower, but it needed one. The Gal Scout is the stealth specialist, not the detection specialist. *Dampening bonus nerf: In regard to the E-war between scouts, and with the changes made to the Cal scout, it might seem that E-war will be more balanced. Balanced between scouts. The problem comes when you consider the other big side of E-war, the active scanners. The Duvolle Focused Active Scanner, to be precise. -Caldari and Minmatar Scout can't evade it at all. Amarr has to use its 4 low slots, and Gallente has to use 3. So half the scouts are unable to evade it at all, and the rest have to compromise their fittings completely to do it. -On the other hand, a Gallente Logi will be able to permascan the entire enemy team just using equipment slots, which don't compromise his suit fitting at all. This is Dust. If something can be abused to permascan the enemy team, it will be used. If you don't believe me, just take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFKg_0D3Rm0&t=16m20s Nerf the Duvolle Focused Active Scanner so Minmatar and Caldari Scouts have a chance to evade it if they sacrifice all their low slots, and with the rest of the changes, E-war will be balanced. Otherwise, just be ready for another season of permascan 514.
Zaria Min Deir Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 699	Posted - 2014.05.25 14:18:00 - [513] - Quote Flyingconejo wrote: About the Gal scouts: Auto repair nerf: The Auto-Repair for the Gallente Scout was too powerful,.Like the old Logi suits, it gave the Gal scout a free slot. This change was completely warranted. So, where's the nerf to the Caldari scout's shield regen rate, it is ridiculouly high and gives them a free slot by saving them from using a recharger/energizer. Flyingconejo wrote:* Scan Range bonus nerf: The passive scanning of the current scout suits is too powerful, so I agree that it had to be balanced somehow. The scan range nerf to the Gallente scout may be too big (1%? lol), but it needed one. The Gal Scout is the stealth specialist, not the detection specialist. You're right, the Caldari is the detection specialist, thus the bonus to scan precision... However, the Gallente scout's scan range is an integral part of being able to take advantage of that stealthiness. Being able to detect most* enemies at a reasonable range helps in avoiding visual detection. And having a blind spot to other dampened scouts is the trade off. Flyingconejo wrote: Dampening bonus nerf: In regard to the E-war between scouts, and with the changes made to the Cal scout, it might seem that E-war will be more balanced. Balanced between scouts. The problem comes when you consider the other big side of E-war, the active scanners. The Duvolle Focused Active Scanner, to be precise. I don't really agree that the small change to the Caldari scout's scan range balances out all the nerfs to the Gallente scout here. Making Caldari scout the most viable scout isn't balance either. Now, my question is, why would ALL scouts need to be able to evade something as niche and low utility as the Duvolle Focused scanner? Hey, Gallente is supposed to be the stealth specialist, right? ;) The scan radius is small, the visibility duration pathetic, and the cooldown absolutely ridiculous. If some Gal Logi wants to use up equipment slots to use it to very briefly detect scouts that would escape other scans... Well, I honestly find it difficult to see a problem with that. Have you* considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Flyingconejo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1031	Posted - 2014.05.25 15:24:00 - [514] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: So, where's the nerf to the Caldari scout's shield regen rate, it is ridiculouly high and gives them a free slot by saving them from using a recharger/energizer. That would go in the Caldari Scout thread, surely? Just to be in the clear, I have been a Gallente Scout since 1.5. I'm not happy about the nerfs, but it was easy to see them coming. Maybe I'm not so worried about these changes because, even with the nerfs, the Gal scout will still be better than it was prior to 1.8. Yes, the Caldari scout regen is great, and it's one of the reasons that it makes it such a good combat scout. But I think the trend for CCP is to increase the regen of shield based suits, as seen in the Caldari Scout and Heavy. So probably the assault and logi will get a regen buff SoonTM. On the other hand, Caldari Scouts are only good as combat/scan suits. They lack the flexibility of the Gallente suits to be good dampened/speed/stealth hacker suits. It has to be mentioned that the Gallente Scout also has a great shield regen itself. If you nerf the shield regen of the Caldari suit, you would have to nerf the Gallente regen as well. No thanks. Zaria Min Deir wrote: You're right, the Caldari is the detection specialist, thus the bonus to scan precision... However, the Gallente scout's scan range is an integral part of being able to take advantage of that stealthiness. Being able to detect most enemies at a reasonable range helps in avoiding visual detection. And having a blind spot to other dampened scouts is the trade off. Yes, it helps in avoid visual detection. To the point of making it really easy. Passive scanning, and scanning in general, is just too easy in this game. Even after the nerf, I will still have a 31.5m (201.51.05) passive scan range (at max skills), which is almost the same to the range we had prior to 1.8. It was more than enough then, it will be more than enough now. Zaria Min Deir wrote: Flyingconejo wrote: Dampening bonus nerf: In regard to the E-war between scouts, and with the changes made to the Cal scout, it might seem that E-war will be more balanced. Balanced between scouts. The problem comes when you consider the other big side of E-war, the active scanners. The Duvolle Focused Active Scanner, to be precise. I don't really agree that the small change to the Caldari scout's scan range balances out all the nerfs to the Gallente scout here. Making Caldari scout the most viable scout isn't balance either. I quote myself just to make sure you notice that when I said scouts were balanced after these changes, I was talking only about E-war. To avoid detection, the Gallente scout needs to match in dampeners the number of enhancers that a Caldari scout has fit. That's balance. Zaria Min Deir wrote:* Now, my question is, why would ALL scouts need to be able to evade something as niche and low utility as the Duvolle Focused scanner? Hey, Gallente is supposed to be the stealth specialist, right? ;) The scan radius is small, the visibility duration pathetic, and the cooldown absolutely ridiculous. If some Gal Logi wants to use up equipment slots to use it to very briefly detect scouts that would escape other scans... Well, I honestly find it difficult to see a problem with that. I admit being biased here in that I hate all manners of scanning (passive and active), since they simplify the game too much in my opinion. I prefer a game where no one can scan anyone over a game where everyone is 24/7 scanned, but I have resigned myself to be in the minority on that. I only mention this so you understand that's the reason I choose Gallente Scout way back. The Gallente scout IS the stealth specialist, and it should be easier for it to avoid detection than for the rest of the scouts. However, avoiding detection is part of the job description of all scouts and I think it should be possible for all of them, even if they have to sacrifice all their low slots to do it. I would accept the Caldari Scout being unable to avoid a focused scanner, since it has great scanning abilities itself. Also, all the drawbacks you mentioned about the focused scanner can be softened greatly if you cycle through 3-4 of them. It only takes one guy, and the other team is permascanned for an entire squad. So yes, for me this is the only nerf to the Gal Scout that I don't support, since it goes entirely against the spirit of the suit, which is being the best at avoiding detection. tl;dr The Gallente scout will still be a great suit, still much better than it was prior to 1.8. More modules, great shield regen (30hp), 1hp armor regen for free that you can combine with reactive plates (cheaper now) or reppers, more slots, more equipment. The only thing that is worse than before, and that should not have been nerfed at all is the dampening bonus. The problem was the cloak dampening bonus, and that one has been solved already. Lowering the suit bonus as well is overnerfing. PD: Gallente scout user since 1.5. Less than a lot of people, but still more than most. Will continue to use it. PPD: Caldari scout is also OP, by the way. But that's for another thread. PPPD: I almost don't play anymore, so do what you want.
Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect 1263	Posted - 2014.05.25 15:32:00 - [515] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Flyingconejo wrote: About the Gal scouts: Auto repair nerf: The Auto-Repair for the Gallente Scout was too powerful,.Like the old Logi suits, it gave the Gal scout a free slot. This change was completely warranted. So, where's the nerf to the Caldari scout's shield regen rate, it is ridiculouly high and gives them a free slot by saving them from using a recharger/energizer. Flyingconejo wrote:* Scan Range bonus nerf: The passive scanning of the current scout suits is too powerful, so I agree that it had to be balanced somehow. The scan range nerf to the Gallente scout may be too big (1%? lol), but it needed one. The Gal Scout is the stealth specialist, not the detection specialist. You're right, the Caldari is the detection specialist, thus the bonus to scan precision... However, the Gallente scout's scan range is an integral part of being able to take advantage of that stealthiness. Being able to detect most* enemies at a reasonable range helps in avoiding visual detection. And having a blind spot to other dampened scouts is the trade off. Flyingconejo wrote: *Dampening bonus nerf: In regard to the E-war between scouts, and with the changes made to the Cal scout, it might seem that E-war will be more balanced. Balanced between scouts. The problem comes when you consider the other big side of E-war, the active scanners. The Duvolle Focused Active Scanner, to be precise. I don't really agree that the small change to the Caldari scout's scan range balances out all the nerfs to the Gallente scout here. Making Caldari scout the most viable scout isn't balance either. Now, my question is, why would ALL scouts need to be able to evade something as niche and low utility as the Duvolle Focused scanner? Hey, Gallente is supposed to be the stealth specialist, right? ;) The scan radius is small, the visibility duration pathetic, and the cooldown absolutely ridiculous. If some Gal Logi wants to use up equipment slots to use it to very briefly detect scouts that would escape other scans... Well, I honestly find it difficult to see a problem with that. This post is full of win. I will add: 1. Gallente not being passive scan specialist is ok i guess, whats not ok is it being a nothing specialist. 1% radius bonus per level is laughable - you get 45% bonus with one module ffs. Even the 3% dampening is pretty poor given you get 25% from a module. Seems ccp's solution to the amarr scout issue is to make another scout that has no purpose. Gud job guiz . 2. Active scanner functionality is so pathetic compared to passive that it shouldnt really be in this discussion. You would have to carry four duvolle focused scanners and have them out almost constantly, making you highly vulnerable, to even get close to caldari scout scan coverage. Not to mention your suit is then severely compromised in other respects and costs around 250k isk.
Flyingconejo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1033	Posted - 2014.05.25 15:40:00 - [516] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: This post is full of win. I will add: 1. Gallente not being passive scan specialist is ok i guess, whats not ok is it being a nothing specialist. 1% radius bonus per level is laughable - you get 45% bonus with one module ffs. Even the 3% dampening is pretty poor given you get 25% from a module. Seems ccp's solution to the amarr scout issue is to make another scout that has no purpose. Gud job guiz . We are saying the same thing. I agree with you. Ryme Intrinseca wrote: 2. Active scanner functionality is so pathetic compared to passive that it shouldnt really be in this discussion. You would have to carry four duvolle focused scanners and have them out almost constantly, making you highly vulnerable, to even get close to caldari scout scan coverage. Not to mention your suit is then severely compromised in other respects and costs around 250k isk. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFKg_0D3Rm0&t=16m20s And cost does not matter in PC. But that's ok. I will just run my 3 dampeners suit and get on with it.
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 885	Posted - 2014.05.25 16:07:00 - [517] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I am going to say this now and most of you are not going to like it. The idea of a mechanic invulnerability through ingame things should not or ever been a thing. The game of absolutions is not eve themed for the universe enough to warrant such gimmicks. While you can point to the cloak being this way in eve; you have to remember this is a long time problem along with local in null that has turned into a deadlocked feature planning on resolution. Just because you got 0.001+ over another players counter number shouldn't account for this slight margin of error; this is the whole reason why sharpshooter was removed in the first place and weapon falloff was brought in. Scanners and Detection should follow a similar route to eve's lock system. Greater the differences in scan vs stealth the longer it takes for one to appear on that target's radar; this will ultimately require a rebranding work on acceptable detection rates at various sizes/roles as well as sensor falloff strength for those sizes/roles as well as detection speeds expected. A heavy could be blind as a bat but if a scout stays behind him for a minute he may just get noticed. Throw damps on and you will not get seen as quickly as someone who is in the nude. Perform an action and mayhaps increase the rate of detection (firing your gun/ activating your ability) While this type of idea is likely impossible for dust 514. Don't expect the thinking of absolutions to survive into Legion. Who cares about legion?! CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.
Sleepy Shadow L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 176	Posted - 2014.05.25 16:38:00 - [518] - Quote Can we change all the Gallente suits and armour repair modules please? Stop the silly Gallente and Caldari mirroring thing you have going on, it doesnGÇÖt make any sense. You need to mirror Gallente and Amarr, one tanks repair and the other plates. Armour repair modules need to be moved to high slots and the slot layout of all Gallente suits changed as well as the Amarr: Gallente assault slots 5/2, Amarr assault slots 2/5 Gallente scout 4/2, Amarr scout 2/4 Gallente heavy 4/1, Amarr heavy 1/4 But, with these changes, the Amarr should not have higher HP than the other suits. The changes would promote GallenteGÇÖs use as repair king, it would stop brick tanking and make the Amarr scout a little better in comparison. Now, give back Gals their range and regen. CCPGÇÖs proposed nerfs are ridiculous. I have never proto stomped but now that DUST 514 is dead I can do it without remorse!! 263 million ISK to go.
Tamori Orn Nos Nothi 36	Posted - 2014.05.25 17:01:00 - [519] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Ares 514 wrote: I hate having the suit you skill into get changed so much. Wish I was cal scout now like the majority of PC scouts I see. Rofl, didn't you see? 50% of scout use if gal. Being unscannable with only 1 low slot > all. 50% Gal scouts, but you never actually see them. They stay under the radar! (ba-dum-tish) I'll show myself out. I am the "Great King" of the Semites. I am King of Kish, Lagash, Umma, Uruk, overlord of Sumer, Elam, Mari, and Yarmuti
DozersMouse XIII Inner.Hell 830	Posted - 2014.05.25 17:37:00 - [520] - Quote regen should stay at 3 for the gal scout scan radius bonus should be removed from the gal and moved to the amarr scout with the gal's dampening bonus being reduced so should the cal's precision (4 % per level or 3 % since passives are staying) I love what you guys are doing here but trimming every aspect of the gal is NOT the way to balance I really think the cal scout needs a reduced number on the precision bonus don't harm the hamsters

Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 305	Posted - 2014.05.25 18:12:00 - [521] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the only viable (PC) meta? Go! I want to be inform when my Gallente Scout is being detected by passive scan.
Tweaksz Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 106	Posted - 2014.05.25 18:51:00 - [522] - Quote CCP Rattati for the love of all that is the Galscout please do not reduce the armor reps, if you are going to ***** slap all other aspects of the Galscout at least give us our survivabilty. Pill Popping Madness!
Vordred Knight Dark Pheonix Armada 189	Posted - 2014.05.25 18:52:00 - [523] - Quote This is what ccp does lol Markdown:
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15195	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:03:00 - [524] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I am going to say this now and most of you are not going to like it. The idea of a mechanic invulnerability through ingame things should not or ever been a thing. The game of absolutions is not eve themed for the universe enough to warrant such gimmicks. While you can point to the cloak being this way in eve; you have to remember this is a long time problem along with local in null that has turned into a deadlocked feature planning on resolution. Just because you got 0.001+ over another players counter number shouldn't account for this slight margin of error; this is the whole reason why sharpshooter was removed in the first place and weapon falloff was brought in. Scanners and Detection should follow a similar route to eve's lock system. Greater the differences in scan vs stealth the longer it takes for one to appear on that target's radar; this will ultimately require a rebranding work on acceptable detection rates at various sizes/roles as well as sensor falloff strength for those sizes/roles as well as detection speeds expected. A heavy could be blind as a bat but if a scout stays behind him for a minute he may just get noticed. Throw damps on and you will not get seen as quickly as someone who is in the nude. Perform an action and mayhaps increase the rate of detection (firing your gun/ activating your ability) While this type of idea is likely impossible for dust 514. Don't expect the thinking of absolutions to survive into Legion. Heres the thing There needs to be a way to completely avoid wall hacks, it's juat a ******** mechanic for bad players or abusers There needs to be a way for scouts to avoid the op wall hacks, again, wall hacks are plain stupid. Those are not excuses for the need of a game of absolution; thats a poor mechanic that needs refinement. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
thecoolest guy Ancient Exiles. General Tso's Alliance 28	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:06:00 - [525] - Quote Seriously, you're swinging the nerf hammer pretty hard at Gal Scouts. What happened to your policy of not nerfing more than one thing at a time and making minor tweaks to see how it goes? You're slamming Gal Scouts with: Scan range decrease from 5% - 1% per level. (Why even give it at all?) Dampening per level from 5% to 3% And regen from 3hp to 1hp on top of that cloak dampening changes. Pick 3 of the 4 - but adjust as you go. You're adjusting too much at once.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3281	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:07:00 - [526] - Quote Someone say Absolution?! :D CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Flyingconejo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1034	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:53:00 - [527] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Someone say Absolution?! :D IWS said that you guys will have no place in Legion. I don't know what you did, but CCP must be pretty pissed about it.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3282	Posted - 2014.05.25 20:09:00 - [528] - Quote Flyingconejo wrote: IWS said that you guys will have no place in Legion. I don't know what you did, but CCP must be pretty pissed about it. D: CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Flyingconejo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1034	Posted - 2014.05.25 20:17:00 - [529] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Flyingconejo wrote: IWS said that you guys will have no place in Legion. I don't know what you did, but CCP must be pretty pissed about it. D: It probably was those questions you asked at fanfest. Sorry bro.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15196	Posted - 2014.05.25 21:14:00 - [530] - Quote I just simply do not believe in having stats and numbers equating to immunity; if there is any sort of immunity to be gained it should be from player skills and player skills alone. If you want to be undetected it should be sourced from player skills not because you shoved on a harry potter cloak and some sneakers on. It should be because you poked the other guys eyes out; threw sand in their face and darted around like a wild illusioned shadow. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1019	Posted - 2014.05.25 22:03:00 - [531] - Quote thecoolest guy wrote: Seriously, you're swinging the nerf hammer pretty hard at Gal Scouts. What happened to your policy of not nerfing more than one thing at a time and making minor tweaks to see how it goes? You're slamming Gal Scouts with: Scan range decrease from 5% - 1% per level. (Why even give it at all?) Dampening per level from 5% to 3% And regen from 3hp to 1hp on top of that cloak dampening changes. Pick 3 of the 4 - but adjust as you go. You're adjusting too much at once. Compounded nerfs are dangerous, but this could've been a lot worse. Rattati did well. Scouts should be fine, Gal included. Unless I'm missing something. o7 Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Grimmiers 566	Posted - 2014.05.25 22:38:00 - [532] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I just simply do not believe in having stats and numbers equating to immunity; if there is any sort of immunity to be gained it should be from player skills and player skills alone. If you want to be undetected it should be sourced from player skills not because you shoved on a harry potter cloak and some sneakers on. It should be because you poked the other guys eyes out; threw sand in their face and darted around like a wild illusioned shadow. I had a post where shooting your gun and sprinting would increase your profile. I mean what if all suits had closer base profiles, but based on your frame and type of weapon you're using your profile would vary.
Jaceon Pale-eye DUST University Ivy League 30	Posted - 2014.05.25 22:41:00 - [533] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I just simply do not believe in having stats and numbers equating to immunity; if there is any sort of immunity to be gained it should be from player skills and player skills alone. If you want to be undetected it should be sourced from player skills not because you shoved on a harry potter cloak and some sneakers on. It should be because you poked the other guys eyes out; threw sand in their face and darted around like a wild illusioned shadow. In a game featuring cloned mercs hermetically sealed into suits that operate entirely via electronic sensor systems.... you sound like a moron right now. How the **** did you get voted into a white tag? I'm with you on the idea of some kind of sensor strength/falloff, some mechanism for attenuation. You know. Your previous post. But this little sperg I quoted? No. Just no. I just went 3/1 with 2 obj hacks and half a dozen CRU hacks with a badic damp on a standard minja suit. No cloak. 2 of those kills with basic knives. I'm practicing for the cloak nerf. If I have not even the efficacy of damps to blind the enemy, scouting as a role is entirely over. Nerf the cloak damp bonus into the ground and add the decloak->attack delay. We can handle that. Adjust the plates. Gal scouts will figure out how to survive. Leave the Galscout otherwise alone. Half of the stuff being discussed for nerf isn't even part of an existing issue here except for the people who find themselves unable to surmount the ewar advantage inherent to a class of suits intended to handle the bulk of the ewar load. Even the whinging about tacnet, squads sharing passive scans and "wallhacks" are silly. We're not playing CS:Source. We're playing space mercs with space guns and space sensors. It's 2014 and first world police forces have thermal scanners that wall hack criminal hideouts for their swat teams. CCP's games take place some 34,000 years into the future in a galaxy on the other side ofa wormhole. I can be picked up on scan through an alloyed tritanium wall laced through with mexallon rebar. THAT'S AWESOME!! Love the sci-fi edge. Stop whining because your 2,000 hp heavy can't see me stalking it or find a friend to protect you from me. The trade off is if you DO see me, your standard HMG instakills me. That's fair even though I can't kill your heavy in one hit. Medium suits also have an advantage if I lose the element of surprise, which happens as soon as I attack. That's fair too.
IRON PATRIOT 1 Proficiency V. 148	Posted - 2014.05.25 23:18:00 - [534] - Quote My opinion is removing the dampening bonus from cloak field will definitely make the gal scout the go to scout for stealth. On the other hand the only scout that I see suffering from the cloak nerf would be the amaar. Right now the gal and the amaar share the same amount of slots, but the gal will only need to sacrifice 1 low and the amaar 2 in order to be undetectable. This takes away from the amaar scout's total ehp. With the armor plates nerf coming the amaar scout will not only be sacrificing ehp but speed as well just to be effectively damped. The best thing about being a scout is being fast and stealthy and the amaar scout will only have the benefit of being 1. With that being said the min and cal scout can still compete if the nerf does come. With two damps on a cal scout you still have over 450 shields and sprint 8 m/s that's great for a scout. The min with two damps will have over 340 shields with one low slot still accessible to stack a amor plate and still run faster than the base 8 m/s for a scout. With that being said the nerf to the cloaks dampening bonus is bad for the amaar scout and all the other scouts will still remain competitive with the gal scout being king of stealth.
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 480	Posted - 2014.05.25 23:33:00 - [535] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: thecoolest guy wrote: Seriously, you're swinging the nerf hammer pretty hard at Gal Scouts. What happened to your policy of not nerfing more than one thing at a time and making minor tweaks to see how it goes? You're slamming Gal Scouts with: Scan range decrease from 5% - 1% per level. (Why even give it at all?) Dampening per level from 5% to 3% And regen from 3hp to 1hp on top of that cloak dampening changes. Pick 3 of the 4 - but adjust as you go. You're adjusting too much at once. Compounded nerfs have a consistent history of breaking things, but this one might work. It could've been a lot worse. In the end, Rattati did well. Scouts should be fine, Gal included. Unless, of course, I'm missing something. Shotty please continue to lead them. Gallente users were just too comfortable with what they had. If they played on the other side they would would see these arent as drastic as they think. Gallente will still be able to be unscannable, will have the second best range and still have some regen where no other suit has any. Gal can be most damped or fastest sprinter or have the most scan range. They also have the ability to use their low slots to hack well, cover much distance at speed or armor tank with better regen than any other scout. The Gal scout will most likely still be the best all-round scout, just not head and shoulders above. "Shine bright like a diamond"
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1210	Posted - 2014.05.26 00:14:00 - [536] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I just simply do not believe in having stats and numbers equating to immunity; if there is any sort of immunity to be gained it should be from player skills and player skills alone. If you want to be undetected it should be sourced from player skills not because you shoved on a harry potter cloak and some sneakers on. It should be because you poked the other guys eyes out; threw sand in their face and darted around like a wild illusioned shadow. It doesn't really matter what you believe, we're playing a game that is based on stats and numbers. As such, regardless of my skill, I can be detected even while at distance and concealed and there's no options for what ever the hell it was you wrote there. Quote: If you want to detect players it should be sourced form player skill, not because you shoved on a magical scanning wand and waved it in the air. It should be because you keep your head on a stick, watch your back, and check the points. Invalid arguement is invalid. Knowledge is power
JP Acuna Pendejitos Zero-Day 167	Posted - 2014.05.26 01:42:00 - [537] - Quote Completely ruined the Gallente scout scan radius. Now we could say the dampening skill is balanced, but you had to nerf it too?!! without nerfing Caldari scout precision skill. Terrible idea, this is not looking good.
JP Acuna Pendejitos Zero-Day 167	Posted - 2014.05.26 01:56:00 - [538] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Gallente will still be able to be unscannable, will have the second best range and still have some regen where no other suit has any. Gal can be most damped or fastest sprinter or have the most scan range. They also have the ability to use their low slots to hack well, cover much distance at speed or armor tank with better regen than any other scout. The Gal scout will most likely still be the best all-round scout, just not head and shoulders above. Then the Gallente logistics can be the best all-round medium suit, because it can have better precision than the Gal-scout, it can run faster speed-tanked, can be dampened in crazy ways, hack the fastest, tank over 800 armor, best reps, best scan radius, best stamina, etc... ...But it can only have ONE of those things at once and it will be a terrible suit. A sensible scout won't wear any of the fits you suggest for competitive play. Trying to be the "fastest" in a Gal-scout is at least naive. It is versatile, yes, but won't be the "best" or have the "most" at any of those things except for dampening, in an effective and serious fitting, that is.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 405	Posted - 2014.05.26 03:40:00 - [539] - Quote why the hell would you nerf the scan radius of the gall scout below the cal? we're suppose to be their polor counter, just makes sense. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 405	Posted - 2014.05.26 03:46:00 - [540] - Quote cal scout should scan more precise, gall scout should scan further as of now my ewar fit will be 2 complex dampeners 2 complex range amps and 1 complex ferro plate.....sounds useless with having to waste an extra slot for range amps. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.

Samuel Zelik D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 200	Posted - 2014.05.26 04:01:00 - [541] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: *Reducing GA regen to 1/hp from 3/hp Please reconsider this change. It throws off the whole 3-2-1 reps thing with Gallente suits and seems like over-nerf. If you're going to change the scan radius bonus to be abysmal, switch the bonus to passive reps to compensate for the reduction, please. I was going to use that Installation... Flashlights: Good because yes.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 819	Posted - 2014.05.26 05:37:00 - [542] - Quote Samuel Zelik wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: *Reducing GA regen to 1/hp from 3/hp Please reconsider this change. It throws off the whole 3-2-1 reps thing with Gallente suits and seems like over-nerf. If you're going to change the scan radius bonus to be abysmal, switch the bonus to passive reps to compensate for the reduction, please. So, make it 1-2-3 instead. Dust/Eve transfers
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 819	Posted - 2014.05.26 05:38:00 - [543] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: why the hell would you nerf the scan radius of the gall scout below the cal? we're suppose to be their polor counter, just makes sense. Gal has more low slots and racial weapons with lower range. Deal with it. Dust/Eve transfers
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1171	Posted - 2014.05.26 05:46:00 - [544] - Quote 1% bonus per level.....lol. Might as well not even have a bonus. That's insignificant. At max skills that's 1.5m extra. Youtube
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2139	Posted - 2014.05.26 06:15:00 - [545] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: In summary Overall we generally agree that 1)GA scout could fit too much because of his native dampening 2)GA scout also got a free repair module on top of that 3)GA passive scan bonus doesnt necessarily make sense for role 4)CA scouts passive scan (fondly known as wallhacking) a tad too much 5)Cloak gameplay with dampening is a key factor in fun ewar 6)The need to specialize is enforced in a big way with power graduation 7)To not force equipment selection by having built in scout bonuses for the cloak specifically (such as duration for GA) Cloak keeps dampening, and at better rates than we originally proposed, 0-5-10 instead of 0-2.5-5 GA scout damp bonus to 3% per level instead of 5% for a maximum bonus of 15% Reducing CA passive scan to 3% from 5% Reducing GA passive scan to 1% from 5% (I would think this gets changed to something more fitting later) Reducing GA regen to 1/hp from 3/hp *Duration changes stay the same as original proposal with the same recharge ratio as the old cloak Updated Hotfix Alpha Numbers No changes to shared group scans No changes to Gallogi FS, it is a very narrow scan with a limited steatlh counter by another role than CA scouts. I want to see how that plays out. No changes so bonuses affect modules fitted (a much bigger change) I have updated the google docs accordingly Thanks for the summery, the iterative approach to balance and the intent to take the time to see how changes effect things. I'm interested to see how this effects the meta. 0.02 ISK Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 406	Posted - 2014.05.26 07:56:00 - [546] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Ok... Lets start off by saying this. -The codebreaker modules need to be changed to high slot modules. (gives you more of a reason to be a racial min) -The caldari prec change is fine, but the gallantes range extension should be equal to it. 3% per lvl. - The gallante self rep at 3 is fine, with cal reps at 50 p/s, if you nerf one, you should nerf the other. -The gallante base precision should be lowered (to compensate for keeping the range amp bonus, and to help cal scouts out) -The gal scout should need 2 complex dampeners/cloak to evade a cal scout, and like wise for a cal with 2 dampeners/cloak to evade a gall scout with 2 complex precision mods -The ar needs a 4-5% buff, cbr -2% -The amar assault needs it last slot applied. -The proto cloak should be active at least 60s. Theres no way to hack an objective, let alone even run across the fields to get there with the current times. CCP please reevaluate your proposed changes, and think it through a bit more. I believe my ideas may be of use :( Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 406	Posted - 2014.05.26 08:00:00 - [547] - Quote Ok... Lets start off by saying this. -The codebreaker modules need to be changed to high slot modules. (gives you more of a reason to be a racial min) -The caldari prec at 5% preferably, but 3 would be fine, the gallantes range amps should be equal to it or higher. Perferably 5% per lvl for the gallante range amps. And the cal scouts should be 3% per lvl for range amps. - The gallante self rep at 3 is fine, with cal reps at 50 p/s, if you nerf one, you should nerf the other. -The gallante base precision should be nerfed to a higher number (to compensate for keeping the range amp bonus, and to help cal scouts out. -The gal scout should need 2 complex dampeners/cloak to evade a cal scout with 4 complex precision mods, and like wise for a cal with 2 dampeners/cloak to evade a gall scout with 2 complex precision mods. The minmatar should have it's base dampening reduced so that it can hide from a cal scout with 3 precision mods. (assuming the matari scout has 3 dampeners and cloak activated) - The amar scout should have a 5% scan radius, and the ability to pick up a matari scout with 2 or 3 dampeners and cloak(not sure which one would work out the best without doing the math). (assuming the amar scout has their high slots completely filled with prec mods.) So maybe give the base precision of the amar scout a slight buff so that they can catch it (since they don't have the prec perks). But that it can't catch the gallante with 2 damps/cloaks, or cal scout with 2 damps/cloak. -The ar needs a 4-5% buff, cbr -2% -The amar assault needs it last slot applied. -The proto cloak should be active at least 60s. Theres no way to hack an objective, let alone even run across the fields to get there with the current times. CCP please reevaluate your proposed changes, and think it through a bit more. I believe my overal ideas may be of use, just too lazy to crunch numbers, :( Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
nickmunson Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 17	Posted - 2014.05.26 11:20:00 - [548] - Quote How about this ccp, first NO ONE has complained about dampened gallente scouts for the past year, i know ive played it for that long. so instead of listening to all the damn crybabies, you think what did you screw up to make it this bad. One either go tier system like you mention on cloaks and give dampened bonus, leave the cloaks alone cause its the only defense mim and cal scouts really get . go back to the way scans originally were, cause no one complained about not seeing my triple dampened scout on scans ever. and instead of stressing bs fixes, how about major crap like LAG and hit detection. cal scouts while cloaked and uncloaking break the hit detection vs shotguns, shows hit markers yet none or minimal damage is done. and this happens alot for shotguns, im nailing a guy he takes no damage and he one shots me, cause one the hit detection vs him as well as the server is more on his side so the hit detection for him hitting me is great. stabilize your game before you start changing attributes with in it. stop listening to all the damn cry babies and think o wait gal scouts have ALWAYS had the same dampened bonus, so why would we touch it when it was never an issue till now. and the only reason its an issue is you screwed with the equiptment so a logi has to have all 4 logi suits to be effective instead of just one suit, so a player who has worked soo god damn hard to get all his equiptment proto to be useful to his squad in every way is rendered useless except for his specific role. why should a scout or heavy or assault be able to good with every weapon yet a logi whos put 19 mil sp into core upgrades is garbage except for uplinks, scans or reps, fix your active scans the way they were with the 360 spin and watch how many people stop crying. tired of people qqing so damn much about scouts when NOTHING has changed about the gal scout in a year besides and extra high and extra equiptment. and if the cloak is the damn issue just remove the thing, the player base is obviously not ready for it. as well as it creates to many gliches with in. but definitly fix the hit detection, cause a good heavy doesnt fear scouts. he melts them. and your talking about screwing with the one thing gal has that makes them i viable role for stealth and sabotage. or you can continue to mess up the game make people crank numbers spec into crap and change it and make them regret like time after time youve done and then say they are stuck with it and no sp refund even though we just screwed your suit up . ill be damned if you mess with the one and only suit ive ever spect into fully and tried becoming the best at day after day. tired of your crap ccp. and how about fix payouts since people are supposively dieing more to cloak scouts they cant afford to run the equiptment they've worked so hard to freaken earn. specially the logis, adv still cost over 100k and they have no defense for e warefare except for gal logi. remove gal logi bonus, give it the old amar logi bonus to repair module effiency , and let everyone have the same old scans that made them happy. forces gal scouts to run triple damp, boom problem solved. let it be abused, just means they dont have ammo, or links or re. like is this really that hard to figure out ? also you screw with my gal scout that ive had since open beta i want a damn refund of isk,sp, and aur, cause ive enjoyed the role as a primary douche bag in game sabotaging tanks, equiptment (es[ecially uplinks) , stop giving assualt suits besides the ammar assault garbage bonuses, fyi that craps op , especially if you have the templar bps. give cal assault a rate of fire increas with rr, and gal increas rr with ar, and mim..... yeah unless u screw with their combat rifles they are fine with having extended clips. you touch my gal scout expect another biomass. its all ive ever played. love me or hate me. you kill me i hunt you.
Protected Void 0uter.Heaven Academy 305	Posted - 2014.05.26 12:10:00 - [549] - Quote What the hell. Really. I stay off the forums for a few days, and apparently I've lost my chance to state my opinion about a four-way nerf to the suit I use 98% of the time. Well, I'm gonna state it anyway. So there. I'm fine with the cloak nerf. I'm fine with the armor regen nerf in addition to the cloak nerf. It's starting to hurt when you add the dampening nerf, but I can see reasonable arguments being made for equipping another dampener. When you add the scan range nerf on top of that, though, it gets a bit silly. 1 stinking percent per level? At level 5, that makes for a whopping 1 meter increase over the base scan range. Throw a complex range extender on, and the total range increase you get from that suit bonus is 1,45 meters. Woohoo. You might as well just remove the whole bonus. It's useless anyway. If it's removed, at least I get to complain like the Amarr scouts have been doing over their single specialization bonus. Seriously, it's like giving a waiter a 10 cent tip. It's an insult - it would be far better not tipping at all.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 406	Posted - 2014.05.26 13:18:00 - [550] - Quote do not touch the gall range amp, nerf my scan precision instead !:( Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.

Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 885	Posted - 2014.05.26 16:45:00 - [551] - Quote I tried to stop the madness. I failed. So, the way I see the stats now it will rarely make sense to run any kind of 'balanced' scout fitting that I have loved and enjoyed for months. I usually only run with one Complex Shield Extender and one armour module (of some kind based on suit), the rest is all misc modules that should be on a scout. Given the changes that you are planning I only see one viable option left and that's to say screw every module except tank. So good work on wrecking my fit and making me tank it up, something I thought you wanted to discourage. FYI, I would try speed tanking but with the amazing stun lock effect you guys designed it's just not viable. CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 407	Posted - 2014.05.26 16:51:00 - [552] - Quote Way to completely break a fit that was fine for 2 years, that no one complained of it's bonus' being op. And now you're just giving into a waterfall of tears from slayers who don't even understand the concept of the scout role. They're just mad because the suit that was intended to counter them, actually does, now they want to nerf it. And will come up with any excuse that they can to see it through. These are the same people who logi slayed. 5 armor plates, 3 dmg mods for the logi, 4 armor plates 2 dmg mods, see a trend? Congratz ccp. Pat yourself one the back, you just pulled the plug off of the life support system for any hope of having balanced roles. You should build on top of your foundation, not a hump of sand fotm that people just chose because of it's bugged hit detection, and scans. The cal scout should have less range amp bonus than the gallante, period. That is if you want the prec/amp to be balanced between the two. Precise scans, shorter range Duller scans, longer range de de de while we're at it, can we fix the values of the dmg mods from select aurum packs to 5% instead of the original 10%? Ktnxbye Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 69	Posted - 2014.05.26 17:31:00 - [553] - Quote Protected Void wrote: What the hell. Really. I stay off the forums for a few days, and apparently I've lost my chance to state my opinion about a four-way nerf to the suit I use 98% of the time. Well, I'm gonna state it anyway. So there. I'm fine with the cloak nerf. I'm fine with the armor regen nerf in addition to the cloak nerf. It's starting to hurt when you add the dampening nerf, but I can see reasonable arguments being made for equipping another dampener. When you add the scan range nerf on top of that, though, it gets a bit silly. 1 stinking percent per level? At level 5, that makes for a whopping 1 meter increase over the base scan range. Throw a complex range extender on, and the total range increase you get from that suit bonus is 1,45 meters. Woohoo. You might as well just remove the whole bonus. It's useless anyway. If it's removed, at least I get to complain like the Amarr scouts have been doing over their single specialization bonus. Seriously, it's like giving a waiter a 10 cent tip. It's an insult - it would be far better not tipping at all. Yeah, the range nerf is the ONLY one I don't really agree with at the moment but due to gallente slot layout we can achieve greater range than the other 3 scouts but at a cost. Not that we can get our precision low enough to detect anything that tries to avoid it but it sure helps for vehicle spam (when is that going to be fixed?). I think minmatar speed/hacking needs buffed and/or gallente speed/hacking reduced. yeah i'm asking for more gallente nerfs and I run gallente 99% of the time I just want minmatar to have there perks. I don't care if they remove the amarr religious nut job scum.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 407	Posted - 2014.05.26 17:36:00 - [554] - Quote Xx-VxF-xX wrote: Protected Void wrote: What the hell. Really. I stay off the forums for a few days, and apparently I've lost my chance to state my opinion about a four-way nerf to the suit I use 98% of the time. Well, I'm gonna state it anyway. So there. I'm fine with the cloak nerf. I'm fine with the armor regen nerf in addition to the cloak nerf. It's starting to hurt when you add the dampening nerf, but I can see reasonable arguments being made for equipping another dampener. When you add the scan range nerf on top of that, though, it gets a bit silly. 1 stinking percent per level? At level 5, that makes for a whopping 1 meter increase over the base scan range. Throw a complex range extender on, and the total range increase you get from that suit bonus is 1,45 meters. Woohoo. You might as well just remove the whole bonus. It's useless anyway. If it's removed, at least I get to complain like the Amarr scouts have been doing over their single specialization bonus. Seriously, it's like giving a waiter a 10 cent tip. It's an insult - it would be far better not tipping at all. Yeah, the range nerf is the ONLY one I don't really agree with at the moment but due to gallente slot layout we can achieve greater range than the other 3 scouts but at a cost. Not that we can get our precision low enough to detect anything that tries to avoid it but it sure helps for vehicle spam (when is that going to be fixed?). I think minmatar speed/hacking needs buffed and/or gallente speed/hacking reduced. yeah i'm asking for more gallente nerfs and I run gallente 99% of the time I just want minmatar to have there perks. I don't care if they remove the amarr religious nut job scum. if hacking mods were in high slots, the matari would hack circles around the gallante, while still being dual/triple dampened (matari) Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 408	Posted - 2014.05.26 17:50:00 - [555] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Xx-VxF-xX wrote: Protected Void wrote: What the hell. Really. I stay off the forums for a few days, and apparently I've lost my chance to state my opinion about a four-way nerf to the suit I use 98% of the time. Well, I'm gonna state it anyway. So there. I'm fine with the cloak nerf. I'm fine with the armor regen nerf in addition to the cloak nerf. It's starting to hurt when you add the dampening nerf, but I can see reasonable arguments being made for equipping another dampener. When you add the scan range nerf on top of that, though, it gets a bit silly. 1 stinking percent per level? At level 5, that makes for a whopping 1 meter increase over the base scan range. Throw a complex range extender on, and the total range increase you get from that suit bonus is 1,45 meters. Woohoo. You might as well just remove the whole bonus. It's useless anyway. If it's removed, at least I get to complain like the Amarr scouts have been doing over their single specialization bonus. Seriously, it's like giving a waiter a 10 cent tip. It's an insult - it would be far better not tipping at all. Yeah, the range nerf is the ONLY one I don't really agree with at the moment but due to gallente slot layout we can achieve greater range than the other 3 scouts but at a cost. Not that we can get our precision low enough to detect anything that tries to avoid it but it sure helps for vehicle spam (when is that going to be fixed?). I think minmatar speed/hacking needs buffed and/or gallente speed/hacking reduced. yeah i'm asking for more gallente nerfs and I run gallente 99% of the time I just want minmatar to have there perks. I don't care if they remove the amarr religious nut job scum. if hacking mods were in high slots, the matari would hack circles around the gallante, while still being dual/triple dampened (matari) only problem is the cal scout with 4 codebreakers :p Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 70	Posted - 2014.05.26 18:01:00 - [556] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Xx-VxF-xX wrote: Protected Void wrote: What the hell. Really. I stay off the forums for a few days, and apparently I've lost my chance to state my opinion about a four-way nerf to the suit I use 98% of the time. Well, I'm gonna state it anyway. So there. I'm fine with the cloak nerf. I'm fine with the armor regen nerf in addition to the cloak nerf. It's starting to hurt when you add the dampening nerf, but I can see reasonable arguments being made for equipping another dampener. When you add the scan range nerf on top of that, though, it gets a bit silly. 1 stinking percent per level? At level 5, that makes for a whopping 1 meter increase over the base scan range. Throw a complex range extender on, and the total range increase you get from that suit bonus is 1,45 meters. Woohoo. You might as well just remove the whole bonus. It's useless anyway. If it's removed, at least I get to complain like the Amarr scouts have been doing over their single specialization bonus. Seriously, it's like giving a waiter a 10 cent tip. It's an insult - it would be far better not tipping at all. Yeah, the range nerf is the ONLY one I don't really agree with at the moment but due to gallente slot layout we can achieve greater range than the other 3 scouts but at a cost. Not that we can get our precision low enough to detect anything that tries to avoid it but it sure helps for vehicle spam (when is that going to be fixed?). I think minmatar speed/hacking needs buffed and/or gallente speed/hacking reduced. yeah i'm asking for more gallente nerfs and I run gallente 99% of the time I just want minmatar to have there perks. I don't care if they remove the amarr religious nut job scum. if hacking mods were in high slots, the matari would hack circles around the gallante, while still being dual/triple dampened (matari) +1 That would for sure be a much better option for the hacking. gallente should still not ever be able to come close to a speed stacked minmatar run/sprint speed IMO. the gallente slot layout just leaves so many options with there bonuses.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 408	Posted - 2014.05.26 18:09:00 - [557] - Quote Xx-VxF-xX wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: Xx-VxF-xX wrote: Protected Void wrote: What the hell. Really. I stay off the forums for a few days, and apparently I've lost my chance to state my opinion about a four-way nerf to the suit I use 98% of the time. Well, I'm gonna state it anyway. So there. I'm fine with the cloak nerf. I'm fine with the armor regen nerf in addition to the cloak nerf. It's starting to hurt when you add the dampening nerf, but I can see reasonable arguments being made for equipping another dampener. When you add the scan range nerf on top of that, though, it gets a bit silly. 1 stinking percent per level? At level 5, that makes for a whopping 1 meter increase over the base scan range. Throw a complex range extender on, and the total range increase you get from that suit bonus is 1,45 meters. Woohoo. You might as well just remove the whole bonus. It's useless anyway. If it's removed, at least I get to complain like the Amarr scouts have been doing over their single specialization bonus. Seriously, it's like giving a waiter a 10 cent tip. It's an insult - it would be far better not tipping at all. Yeah, the range nerf is the ONLY one I don't really agree with at the moment but due to gallente slot layout we can achieve greater range than the other 3 scouts but at a cost. Not that we can get our precision low enough to detect anything that tries to avoid it but it sure helps for vehicle spam (when is that going to be fixed?). I think minmatar speed/hacking needs buffed and/or gallente speed/hacking reduced. yeah i'm asking for more gallente nerfs and I run gallente 99% of the time I just want minmatar to have there perks. I don't care if they remove the amarr religious nut job scum. if hacking mods were in high slots, the matari would hack circles around the gallante, while still being dual/triple dampened (matari) +1 That would for sure be a much better option for the hacking. gallente should still not ever be able to come close to a speed stacked minmatar run/sprint speed IMO. the gallente slot layout just leaves so many options with there bonuses. the problem is all variations of ew modules but 1 are all low slots, and 2 of the new scouts are shields. Bonus for the gall scout has been fine for over a year. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 71	Posted - 2014.05.26 18:10:00 - [558] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: Xx-VxF-xX wrote: Protected Void wrote: What the hell. Really. I stay off the forums for a few days, and apparently I've lost my chance to state my opinion about a four-way nerf to the suit I use 98% of the time. Well, I'm gonna state it anyway. So there. I'm fine with the cloak nerf. I'm fine with the armor regen nerf in addition to the cloak nerf. It's starting to hurt when you add the dampening nerf, but I can see reasonable arguments being made for equipping another dampener. When you add the scan range nerf on top of that, though, it gets a bit silly. 1 stinking percent per level? At level 5, that makes for a whopping 1 meter increase over the base scan range. Throw a complex range extender on, and the total range increase you get from that suit bonus is 1,45 meters. Woohoo. You might as well just remove the whole bonus. It's useless anyway. If it's removed, at least I get to complain like the Amarr scouts have been doing over their single specialization bonus. Seriously, it's like giving a waiter a 10 cent tip. It's an insult - it would be far better not tipping at all. Yeah, the range nerf is the ONLY one I don't really agree with at the moment but due to gallente slot layout we can achieve greater range than the other 3 scouts but at a cost. Not that we can get our precision low enough to detect anything that tries to avoid it but it sure helps for vehicle spam (when is that going to be fixed?). I think minmatar speed/hacking needs buffed and/or gallente speed/hacking reduced. yeah i'm asking for more gallente nerfs and I run gallente 99% of the time I just want minmatar to have there perks. I don't care if they remove the amarr religious nut job scum. if hacking mods were in high slots, the matari would hack circles around the gallante, while still being dual/triple dampened (matari) only problem is the cal scout with 4 codebreakers :p a blind detectable cal hacker vs a blind undetectable minmatar hacker? so the minmatar would still need a slight buff to hacking and it hoses the Amarr (good lol)
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 409	Posted - 2014.05.26 18:11:00 - [559] - Quote put kin kats, and codebreakers in high slots, rest in low? :\ i dunno :p i just spam options. (puts bowl down) Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 71	Posted - 2014.05.26 18:15:00 - [560] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: put kin kats, and codebreakers in high slots, rest in low? :\ i dunno :p i just spam options. (puts bowl down) Yeah, I think I broke my spreadsheet changing so many options trying different ideas. (puff puff pass)

Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 409	Posted - 2014.05.26 18:18:00 - [561] - Quote Xx-VxF-xX wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: put kin kats, and codebreakers in high slots, rest in low? :\ i dunno :p i just spam options. (puts bowl down) Yeah, I think I broke my spreadsheet changing so many options trying different ideas. (puff puff pass) It happens when you deal with cough Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 409	Posted - 2014.05.26 18:20:00 - [562] - Quote i edited to throw in a few possibilities/examples Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 886	Posted - 2014.05.26 18:28:00 - [563] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: put kin kats, and codebreakers in high slots, rest in low? :\ i dunno :p i just spam options. (puts bowl down) that would allow (matari to be faster, or hack quicker) that would allow (amar to be fast, and have room for stamina, good for uplink running?) would let gal scout have limited speed, and able to dampen/range amp would let cal scout go all prec. happen and dampen, or even super speedy scout with low stanima lolol If they move modules around from highs to lows then they'd need some kind of respec since it would completely change how many would have skilled into. Personally i went gal scout because kin cats were lows. I do agree some modules need to be moved around and more made to balance everything, but that's for them to sort out in Legion, so I don't really care. CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 409	Posted - 2014.05.26 18:31:00 - [564] - Quote well they're going to screw us anyways and not give us a respec. nothing to lose. lol Lost my dignity along time ago. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 886	Posted - 2014.05.26 18:36:00 - [565] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: well they're going to screw us anyways and not give us a respec. nothing to lose. lol Lost my dignity along time ago. Train into the cal scout and join the new master race! :) Edit: sarcasm / no plans to do this, also this is the new master race of SCOUTS... lets not do anything about those crazy heavies this build right guys? CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 410	Posted - 2014.05.26 18:44:00 - [566] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: well they're going to screw us anyways and not give us a respec. nothing to lose. lol Lost my dignity along time ago. Train into the cal scout and join the new master race! :) Edit: sarcasm / no plans to do this, also this is the new master race of SCOUTS... lets not do anything about those crazy heavies this build right guys? apply your knowledge to my thread sensai Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1678	Posted - 2014.05.26 22:18:00 - [567] - Quote What happened to 'one step at a time'? Start with the cloak-to-firing nerf, couple with a reduction to 25/45/90 Dampening can be dropped, i agree with this. However it completely negates the use of Min Scout, who used to require 2 damps + cloak to be invisible, now it needs 3. This nerf leaves minscout no capability to speed tank, instead requiring 3 damps. I propose, for starters, we drop DB reduction to 15/20/25% between tiers. This makes basic a usable entry tier, while Prototype is specialized(not to mention the fact that non-Gal scouts need to sacrifice very little) General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 75	Posted - 2014.05.26 22:30:00 - [568] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: What happened to 'one step at a time'? Start with the cloak-to-firing nerf, couple with a reduction to 25/45/90 Dampening can be dropped, i agree with this. However it completely negates the use of Min Scout, who used to require 2 damps + cloak to be invisible, now it needs 3. This nerf leaves minscout no capability to speed tank, instead requiring 3 damps. I propose, for starters, we drop DB reduction to 15/20/25% between tiers. This makes basic a usable entry tier, while Prototype is specialized(not to mention the fact that non-Gal scouts need to sacrifice very little) Based on other peoples facts 3x complex dampeners and a proto cloak still wont make minmatar invisible. Most say 14.27 is rounded up to 15 So only Gallente and Amarr will have the possibility to be fully invisible. Everyone wants to be the Queen even though one Pawn can be the difference in winning and losing.
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 3	Posted - 2014.05.27 00:13:00 - [569] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: They should remove the squad sharing passive scans (as was the idea in the first place) I need to follow up on this internally please do, because in effect it's a wall hack. The good use of comms, after all dust has the best VOIP ever, would create balance and authenticity would be enhanced. The demand for " thinking " scouts would sky rocket, because verbal/informational comms would be needed. It would appreciably make demands on the leadeship abilities of the squad leader. active scans should be left on tacnet, unless the "CLAW BACK" of technology overhead could be used for things like vehicle sounds in sound scape, or making vehicles appear on tacnet. etc.
Text Grant Death Firm. Canis Eliminatus Operatives 383	Posted - 2014.05.27 01:55:00 - [570] - Quote Give it a penalty for cloaking, and leave the dampening. Activation penalty 10 seconds from duration.

MocHolliday Ancient Exiles. General Tso's Alliance 34	Posted - 2014.05.27 20:02:00 - [571] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: The best option I see, which will be wildly unpopular is not to merely remove the dampening bonus of the cloak but to add a dampening penalty to the cloak. This only makes sense as a 160 cpu device should show up on scans. More importantly it forces people to make a choice between being seen on radar or being seen by the eye, being able to be able to be invisible to both is just too powerful an advantage and it requires no tactical decision making about which one to use when. It doesn't break the balance of scouts further and it does make other suits and fittings more viable. Two, balance should absolutely be made around pub matches, not PC. PC players can adapt and change strategies as a team, pub players can't. There is no good reason, other than some elitist attitude that the 5% of the players that do PC should have more sway than the 95% who don't. Catering to the PC players has been fundamental to the collapse of Dust. One can not fix stupid. 50% of public players in FW or pubs are terrible. They get less then 500 WP in a game. You can not measure balance with terrible player game play because they are not "playing"...they are taking up space. In PC you see how every suit and module works with players who are the best. If it is OP, PC finds out first. A mean tank can kill every noob in a pub...because they are not good and have not the SP to kill it? So if we balance to pubs we should remove tanks? Increase forge and swarms?....NO. That is why you balance against the best.
Vordred Knight Dark Pheonix Armada 190	Posted - 2014.05.27 23:59:00 - [572] - Quote someone please tell me there going to buff armor reps Markdown:
knight guard fury Brave Blueberries Inc 1042	Posted - 2014.05.28 02:17:00 - [573] - Quote why not just reduce the cloak damp to 15-10% In Rust We Trust Vherokior Warrior My Honor is for the Republic
knight guard fury Brave Blueberries Inc 1043	Posted - 2014.05.28 02:19:00 - [574] - Quote why not just make the cloak 10-5% damp instead of completely removing it. In Rust We Trust Vherokior Warrior My Honor is for the Republic
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1227	Posted - 2014.05.28 02:27:00 - [575] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: why not just make the cloak 10-5% damp instead of completely removing it. It hasn't been removed completely. It will now be 0% at standard, 5% at advanced, and 10% at proto. Knowledge is power
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1079	Posted - 2014.05.28 02:39:00 - [576] - Quote A kink in the plans? Don't know about you guys, but I had assumed Spin Scanning was fixed. A GalLogi scanning 300 degrees every so often might make for problem. I'm not saying that we should change anything. Only pointing out a potential issue. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1897	Posted - 2014.05.28 04:03:00 - [577] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: A kink in the plans? Don't know about you guys, but I had assumed Spin Scanning was fixed. A GalLogi scanning 300 degrees every so often might make for problem. I'm not saying that we should change anything. Only pointing out a potential issue. I have asked an engineer to take a look, I will keep you posted. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2456	Posted - 2014.05.28 04:07:00 - [578] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the only viable (PC) meta? Go! Make it to where like it was before only taking 2 damps to hide from any scans. But force it to have on said 2 damps to do so. So make it as its bonus (a bonus to damps). click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3301	Posted - 2014.05.28 04:11:00 - [579] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: A kink in the plans? Don't know about you guys, but I had assumed Spin Scanning was fixed. A GalLogi scanning 300 degrees every so often might make for problem. I'm not saying that we should change anything. Only pointing out a potential issue. I have asked an engineer to take a look, I will keep you posted. Now that was fast. At every turn you seem to be right on top of it. <3 CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Haerr Legio DXIV 745	Posted - 2014.05.28 06:01:00 - [580] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: A kink in the plans? Don't know about you guys, but I had assumed Spin Scanning was fixed. A GalLogi scanning 300 degrees every so often might make for problem. I'm not saying that we should change anything. Only pointing out a potential issue. I have asked an engineer to take a look, I will keep you posted. Confirming that this is super easy if your mouse have a dpi switch. It would be better if you switched the scanners to have a duration of 1 sec and long scan time instead. And make it have the same mechanics as a cloak - have to hold it out to benefit from it. You could also slow down aiming while you scan with an active scanner. I have Plasma Cannon Proficiency V, no jk.

Haerr Legio DXIV 745	Posted - 2014.05.28 06:14:00 - [581] - Quote The case for having STD-ADV-PRO cloak fields at 0-7.5-15. Reason for STD 0 - No dampening bonus from cloak means you have to give up low slots to gain max benefit. Reason for ADV 7.5 - A slight dampening bonus means that a higher cpu/pg investment is slightly rewarded. Reason for PRO 15 - It will allow Amarr & Minmatar Scouts that give up half of their module slots and uses the most cpu/pg intensive cloak to remain hidden. It allows Gallente the choice between using either half their module slots or 2/6 modules & the most cpu/pg expensive cloak field to remain hidden. The scanners still win by: A) Detecting the scanee B) Forcing the scanee to make huge sacrifices in order to remain hidden. On B): This is probably still severe enough for Scouts to warrant dropping their fits/suits (because they are not competitive) and either going light assault or switching suits. I have Plasma Cannon Proficiency V, no jk.
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 81	Posted - 2014.05.28 07:08:00 - [582] - Quote Haerr wrote: The case for having STD-ADV-PRO cloak fields at 0-7.5-15. Reason for STD 0 - No dampening bonus from cloak means you have to give up low slots to gain max benefit. Reason for ADV 7.5 - A slight dampening bonus means that a higher cpu/pg investment is slightly rewarded. Reason for PRO 15 - It will allow Amarr & Minmatar Scouts that give up half of their module slots and uses the most cpu/pg intensive cloak to remain hidden. It allows Gallente the choice between using either half their module slots or 2/6 modules & the most cpu/pg expensive cloak field to remain hidden. The scanners still win by: A) Detecting the scanee B) Forcing the scanee to make huge sacrifices in order to remain hidden. On B): This is probably still severe enough for Scouts to warrant dropping their fits/suits (because they are not competitive) and either going light assault or switching suits. That is what I originally though we was going to end up with until looking at your GREAT scanning table and KNOWING you have done alot of testing on the subject. I posted that this would assume 14.27 would have to round down in order for MM to be unscannable before seeing your scanning table. CCP Rattati wrote: To recap and please don't derail this Cloak Dampening 0-5-10 STD-ADV-PRO MM, AM, GA are unscannable if PRO cloaked with additional dampeners. what does the GA scout dampening bonus of 25% need to be reduced by so GA scouts still have an advantage as the best stealth suit, without being OP? Take into account that the 3 hp/s is also making it very OP and that may be reduced and/or eliminated as well. Please only answer that question for the time being. Thanks
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 466	Posted - 2014.05.28 11:12:00 - [583] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the only viable (PC) meta? Go! Keep the dampening on cloaks to the extent that a gall with full skills, and proto cloak can be undetectable using only 2 dampeners. And leave the range amp bonus as is. Then.....the 1 change? Remove the 2nd equipment slot from gall scout only. Mind blown Support Balancing scouts
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 466	Posted - 2014.05.28 11:27:00 - [584] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Remind me again what the Gal logistics bonus is for, if not for scanning scouts down? scanning 3 types of scouts and dampened mediums. Support Balancing scouts
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1095	Posted - 2014.05.28 12:19:00 - [585] - Quote Haerr wrote: Confirming that this is super easy if your mouse have a dpi switch. It would be better if you switched the scanners to have a duration of 1 sec and long scan time instead. And make it have the same mechanics as a cloak - have to hold it out to benefit from it. You could also slow down aiming while you scan with an active scanner. Thanks, Haerr. I was thinking the exact opposite ... If current scan duration is 0.3 seconds, I'd suggest reducing it to say 0.03 seconds. Such that "snapshot" = snapshot =/= "try to spin faster" That said, I freely differ to you and your German advisers :-) Do you think these mechanisms are accessible server-side? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Haerr Legio DXIV 747	Posted - 2014.05.28 12:43:00 - [586] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Haerr wrote: Confirming that this is super easy if your mouse have a dpi switch. It would be better if you switched the scanners to have a duration of 1 sec and long scan time instead. And make it have the same mechanics as a cloak - have to hold it out to benefit from it. You could also slow down aiming while you scan with an active scanner. Thanks, Haerr. I was thinking the exact opposite ... If current scan duration is 0.3 seconds, I'd suggest reducing it to say 0.03 seconds. Such that "snapshot" = snapshot =/= "try to spin faster" That said, I freely differ to you and your German advisers :-) Do you think these mechanisms are accessible server-side? I meant to say that the scanner should only light up things while you are scanning at them instead of painting them. Though your suggestion would work well, especially if you combine it with slowing down aiming so you can't spin around. Probably. :-) Edit1: @Xx-VxF-xX I wouldn't mind losing the scan range and the armour rep as long as I can keep some semblance of the dampeners. I have Plasma Cannon Proficiency V, no jk.
TRULY ELITE WarRavens Final Resolution. 16	Posted - 2014.05.28 21:38:00 - [587] - Quote I for one am not worried about my cal scout with dampening. On my advanced suit I use an adv dampener which is 20% from 35 which approximately brings me down to 25Db, in pub matches how many times do you see people running proto scanners? Even with an organised squad if they were to use one it is likely that only one person will use it so on skirmish that's not much of a problem. One person with a proto scanner can't cover the whole map. On domination however this still shouldn't be a problem because scouts are meant to flank not hit head on. This becomes apparent when running caldari because shields are made for hit and run tactics which is why I also run a basic cloak not only to back this up, but to prepare for the changes in hotfix alpha and to get new strategies and tactics ready. Also the standard cloak now and the advanced cloak after alpha, the after alpha cloak has an advantage due to the fact it has a 5 second less recharge time. Just my thoughts. Some things will need to be in place to help Minmatar and Amarr scouts in PC though to make them viable.
Shadowdrake Drakus RBAAlliance 2	Posted - 2014.05.29 16:40:00 - [588] - Quote Make cloaks increase your profile and make the penalty progressively lower the better tear (ex: +20% standard, +10% advanced, +5% proto). Seriously part of an electronics profile is all the equipment you run generate a lot of noise that can be detected by specialized instruments, I never understood why cloaks lowered your profile when they should be stupidly noisy in trying to make people invisible. That or create two types of cloaking modules, one that is noisy and makes your profile bigger but can move at normal speed, and one that acts as a dampener but you lose 50% movement speed. Then you can change Gallente bonuses to a reduction of the penalty by 10% per level for either type of cloaking or affect the dampener modules. Also probably change Caldari bonuses to apply to the precision mods.
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 781	Posted - 2014.05.29 17:20:00 - [589] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: 1% bonus per level.....lol. Might as well not even have a bonus. That's insignificant. At max skills that's 1.5m extra. Its almost like we have gone full circle and we are back to a TOTAL LACK OF BALANCE again. Just as I thought CCP were starting to 'get it'.... I guess you really cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1154	Posted - 2014.05.29 18:09:00 - [590] - Quote TRULY ELITE wrote: I for one am not worried about my cal scout with dampening. On my advanced suit I use an adv dampener which is 20% from 35 which approximately brings me down to 25Db, in pub matches how many times do you see people running proto scanners? Even with an organised squad if they were to use one it is likely that only one person will use it so on skirmish that's not much of a problem. One person with a proto scanner can't cover the whole map. On domination however this still shouldn't be a problem because scouts are meant to flank not hit head on. This becomes apparent when running caldari because shields are made for hit and run tactics which is why I also run a basic cloak not only to back this up, but to prepare for the changes in hotfix alpha and to get new strategies and tactics ready. Also the standard cloak now and the advanced cloak after alpha, the after alpha cloak has an advantage due to the fact it has a 5 second less recharge time. Just my thoughts. Some things will need to be in place to help Minmatar and Amarr scouts in PC though to make them viable. Just wait 'til those Focused Scanners pick up everything. People spam what works. Even so, you will have a valid point if spin-scanning gets fixed. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 450	Posted - 2014.05.30 07:28:00 - [591] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: why the hell would you nerf the scan radius of the gall scout below the cal? we're suppose to be their polor counter, just makes sense. Gal has more low slots and racial weapons with lower range. Deal with it. And cal has more high slots, and higher dmg weapons with longer range. Don't see your point at all, oh...there isn't one. Support Balancing scouts
Sequal Rise Les Desanusseurs 25	Posted - 2014.05.30 08:32:00 - [592] - Quote I disagree with you when you say that caldari has higher damage weapons. Dps are pretty much the same on gal/cal weapons. Moreover, caldari must sacrifice their HP(shield) in order to have damage mods while gallente can have both at the same time!
voidfaction Void of Faction 243	Posted - 2014.05.30 08:39:00 - [593] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: why the hell would you nerf the scan radius of the gall scout below the cal? we're suppose to be their polor counter, just makes sense. Gal has more low slots and racial weapons with lower range. Deal with it. And cal has more high slots, and higher dmg weapons with longer range. Don't see your point at all, oh...there isn't one. The gal can use the same weapons as the cal so that means nothing Gal is polar counter vs Cal in dampening vs precision Gal with 2x complex range is 64m Cal with 2x complex range is 70m Not a big difference Gal with 4x complex range is 90m Cal is stuck at 70m Gal is range king Gal with 2x complex dampeners and proto cloak is 14 Cal with 2x complex dampeners and proto cloak is 17 Gal is profile king Gal can have 64m range and 14 profile with proto cloak at the same time Cal will need 1x enhanced dampener with proto cloak to hide form Gal with 2x complex precision Cal will need 1x complex and 1x basic dampener with proto cloak to hide from anyone with a proto focused scanner The polar balance (neither can scan each other) Gal will have 70m range, 14 profile, and 24 precision = sees less at great range but invisible to all Cal will have 50m range, 23 profile, and 15 precision = sees more at shorter range but not invisible to all Gal range bonus needs removed completely. not that it will make much of a difference. I have been Gal scout since open beta. Will be Gal scout when they shut the servers down.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 453	Posted - 2014.05.30 22:35:00 - [594] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: why the hell would you nerf the scan radius of the gall scout below the cal? we're suppose to be their polor counter, just makes sense. Gal has more low slots and racial weapons with lower range. Deal with it. And cal has more high slots, and higher dmg weapons with longer range. Don't see your point at all, oh...there isn't one. The gal can use the same weapons as the cal so that means nothing Gal is polar counter vs Cal in dampening vs precision Gal with 2x complex range is 64m Cal with 2x complex range is 70m Not a big difference Gal with 4x complex range is 90m Cal is stuck at 70m Gal is range king Gal with 2x complex dampeners and proto cloak is 14 Cal with 2x complex dampeners and proto cloak is 17 Gal is profile king Gal can have 64m range and 14 profile with proto cloak at the same time Cal will need 1x enhanced dampener with proto cloak to hide form Gal with 2x complex precision Cal will need 1x complex and 1x basic dampener with proto cloak to hide from anyone with a proto focused scanner The polar balance (neither can scan each other) [edit] (unless gal is using proto focused scanner) Gal will have 64m range, 14 profile, and 24 precision = sees less at greater range and invisible to all Cal will have 50m range, 21 profile, and 15 precision = sees more at shorter range but not invisible to all Gal range bonus needs removed completely. not that it will make much of a difference. I have been Gal scout since open beta. Will be Gal scout when they shut the servers down. I still agree that the cal should have small range precise scans, and the gall long range dull scans since they are "polar" counters to one another. It's not like a gall scout, with 2 precision mods, can pick up a cal scout with 2 dampeners/cloak.? Support Balancing scouts
voidfaction Void of Faction 246	Posted - 2014.05.30 22:46:00 - [595] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: voidfaction wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: why the hell would you nerf the scan radius of the gall scout below the cal? we're suppose to be their polor counter, just makes sense. Gal has more low slots and racial weapons with lower range. Deal with it. And cal has more high slots, and higher dmg weapons with longer range. Don't see your point at all, oh...there isn't one. The gal can use the same weapons as the cal so that means nothing Gal is polar counter vs Cal in dampening vs precision Gal with 2x complex range is 64m Cal with 2x complex range is 70m Not a big difference Gal with 4x complex range is 90m Cal is stuck at 70m Gal is range king Gal with 2x complex dampeners and proto cloak is 14 Cal with 2x complex dampeners and proto cloak is 17 Gal is profile king Gal can have 64m range and 14 profile with proto cloak at the same time Cal will need 1x enhanced dampener with proto cloak to hide form Gal with 2x complex precision Cal will need 1x complex and 1x basic dampener with proto cloak to hide from anyone with a proto focused scanner The polar balance (neither can scan each other) [edit] (unless gal is using proto focused scanner) Gal will have 64m range, 14 profile, and 24 precision = sees less at greater range and invisible to all Cal will have 50m range, 21 profile, and 15 precision = sees more at shorter range but not invisible to all Gal range bonus needs removed completely. not that it will make much of a difference. I have been Gal scout since open beta. Will be Gal scout when they shut the servers down. I still agree that the cal should have small range precise scans, and the gall long range dull scans since they are "polar" counters to one another. It's not like a gall scout, with 2 precision mods, can pick up a cal scout with 2 dampeners/cloak.? Thats just it. the cal is low/mid range precise scan gal is mid/long range with mid scan.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 453	Posted - 2014.05.30 23:17:00 - [596] - Quote The gall shouldn't be able to detect cal scouts, or the other scout suits, if they are properly dampened, that's probably where a hunk of the scout imbalance comes from.. The rest could be blamed on **** assault suits. The range amp on cal could be 3, gall 5, with cal having the the best precision, and gallante being able to pick up undampened scouts/assaults etc.. =/ Support Balancing scouts
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 453	Posted - 2014.05.31 02:31:00 - [597] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: and gallante being able to pick up undampened scouts/assaults etc.. =/ That's if they use 2 precision mods...they should pick up scouts with 1 dampener, and find medium suits/heavies without dampeners (if they have no precision mods) Support Balancing scouts
Argetlam Thorson Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 51	Posted - 2014.05.31 05:10:00 - [598] - Quote I will start out by saying that I admittedly didn't read all thirty pages of this thread before posting, so I don't know if these have been proposed or not. I have been going Min Scout the past few days (previously never really getting into a scout role), so I don't have weeks of experience, but I've learned a few things and had some ideas. What if you didn't remove the dampening bonus from the cloaks, but when the cloak was active it nerfed your passive scans? This would hopefully turn the cloak from a spammed tactic into something strategically used. If you were cloaked up, you could hide on a point, run around, kill, etc....but then you open yourself up to being shotgunned/knifed in the back by a dampened suit. As for the brick and shield tanked scouts, what if (shield extenders hp hopefully being buffed first) shield extenders also lowered your precision of scanning and armor plates increased your suits profile? (Not my idea, but I liked it.) This would make the fittings more strategy based, as you could either fit for tank/slaying or E-war. I feel that adding penalties such as these to spammed/ 'OP' modules and suits would be better than a straight up numbers nerf. It would mean you could easily still use the suit for slaying OR E-War. This would theoretically help bring the scouts out more into their specializations as opposed to invisible light assault suits, like they are now in PC. Then I believe Amarr would have the slayer scouts, Caldari-the passive scans, Gallente-the unseen ninja, and Minmatar-the ninja hacker. This would mean that you wouldn't have a ridiculous amount of scouts playing what assault would be, because they would be able to fill only one role at a time as opposed to the two we have now. As a final note, I feel like a Proto GalLogi using the best scanner available (Focused, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.) should be able to detect a dampened Gal Scout, because the scanner is an active, not a passive, module. Using this module is not an automatic thing, and it opens you up to attack because your hands are full of scanner.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 453	Posted - 2014.05.31 05:49:00 - [599] - Quote Argetlam Thorson wrote: I What if you didn't remove the dampening bonus from the cloaks, but when the cloak was active it nerfed your passive scans? This would hopefully turn the cloak from a spammed tactic into something strategically used. If you were cloaked up, you could hide on a point, run around, kill, etc....but then you open yourself up to being shotgunned/knifed in the back by a dampened suit. . +1 to this part Support Balancing scouts
Slen Kaleth BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 119	Posted - 2014.06.01 03:19:00 - [600] - Quote Why not change the scout's skills to affect mods that provide the desired bonus instead of a direct suit boost.

HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 149	Posted - 2014.06.01 03:34:00 - [601] - Quote Everything needs one counter measure. Make the focused scanner scan to 14 db. On a proto galante logi. Paper rock scissors <---- caldari logi personally Lonewolf till I die
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1270	Posted - 2014.06.01 23:58:00 - [602] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Everything needs one counter measure. Make the focused scanner scan to 14 db. On a proto galante logi. Paper rock scissors <---- caldari logi personally So what's the counter measure for a proto gal logi runnning 4 focused scanners? Knowledge is power
Slen Kaleth BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 119	Posted - 2014.06.02 02:45:00 - [603] - Quote Brokerib wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Everything needs one counter measure. Make the focused scanner scan to 14 db. On a proto galante logi. Paper rock scissors <---- caldari logi personally So what's the counter measure for a proto gal logi runnning 4 focused scanners? BPO shotgun to the back of the head?
Scheneighnay McBob T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan 5130	Posted - 2014.06.02 02:58:00 - [604] - Quote Remove the built-in reps. They've allowed the gallente scouts to bypass fitting musts that other scouts couldn't, therefore essentially giving them an additional lowslot. péñpâ¦pé+pâìpââpâêpü«tÄïµºÿpüïpéÅpüäpüä
Valko Maddog The Awesome Gang 6	Posted - 2014.06.02 03:18:00 - [605] - Quote Brokerib wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Everything needs one counter measure. Make the focused scanner scan to 14 db. On a proto galante logi. Paper rock scissors <---- caldari logi personally So what's the counter measure for a proto gal logi runnning 4 focused scanners? Everything from assault to scout can kill him and with the hot fix it will be either armored and slow or normal speed but less HP. A scout 1 vs 1 kills gal logi because of the speed. A focused scanner costs 30K x 4 = 120K only the scanners. The scan duration is 7.5 sec only Recharge is 40sec. There are also other roles in the game than scouts. Kill the gal logi with an assault. Also gal logi bonus is the least rewarding. And don't forget that in this game there are not only scouts. A logi alone is dead. Even a heavy alone is dead. Why a scout alone should be OP???
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 165	Posted - 2014.06.02 05:31:00 - [606] - Quote Brokerib wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Everything needs one counter measure. Make the focused scanner scan to 14 db. On a proto galante logi. Paper rock scissors <---- caldari logi personally So what's the counter measure for a proto gal logi runnning 4 focused scanners? Waiting for Cool down ... 7.5 sec scan with proto bonus 30 sec total 40 sec cool down. Ten secs he's blind. Running 4 scanners will leave him with almost no pg left, weak as a kitten = dead logi If they had more time then they could scan nonstop that would suck. Oh and just the suit and scanners are 176k Lonewolf till I die
emtbraincase Savage Bullet 177	Posted - 2014.06.02 14:31:00 - [607] - Quote My $0.02 would be to make plates slow down a suit more when stacked on lighter fittings (meaning real-world implications to encumbrance). A scout with 3-4 plates should actually move slower than a heavy with those same 3-4 plates because it is less encumbered by that weight. Think of it this way, if you weigh 145 lbs vs someone at 215 lbs, and someone else hands each of you a 250 lbs sack, the 145 lbs person would possibly not even be able to move, let alone quickly, while the 215 lbs individual may move slower but likely can move closer to their norm. Most people aren't having problems with what is being discussed, it is the fact that they can do it with 700 hp of armor while retaining their speed. If you make them slower, then their major benefit is removed and all you had to do was what makes sense from a physics standpoint. I doubt that many people would be as upset by the undetectable scout if all they had to do was sneeze toward it to put it down. I definitely think the problem is too many people use the minimap instead of their eyes.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 962	Posted - 2014.06.02 14:58:00 - [608] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Gal range bonus needs removed completely. not that it will make much of a difference. I have been Gal scout since open beta. Will be Gal scout when they shut the servers down. I agree i have never been a big fan of the scan range bonus on the Gal scout. For two reasons 1) the cal scout already has this bonus and I don't see any reasoning in giving two scouts the same racial bonus. 2) it does not work that well with the second bonus. If you look at that cal scout both bonuses make perfect sense in creating a unique role as both strengthen each other. That's pretty cool. Now the gal scout can equip two prec enhancers to make some use of the scanrange but for me this bonus does not fit to a role and makes little sense in combination with the profile dampening. I really have problems in finding the role CCP intended for the gal scout. There are of curse combinations that would make a great role: Dampening + NK or SG or sidearm damage bonus = stealthy assassin Dampening + Hacking bonus = the true hacker unseen and fast Dampening + Scanrange = ???
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 461	Posted - 2014.06.02 15:32:00 - [609] - Quote still say just remove the 2nd equipment slot if they want to run uplinks, they have to sacrifice the cloak. Removes alot of options for the gall scout, but still leaves doors open. Support Balancing scouts
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 897	Posted - 2014.06.02 16:01:00 - [610] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: still say just remove the 2nd equipment slot if they want to run uplinks, they have to sacrifice the cloak. Removes alot of options for the gall scout, but still leaves doors open. Shut your dirty mouth! :) CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.

Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 897	Posted - 2014.06.02 16:02:00 - [611] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: voidfaction wrote: Gal range bonus needs removed completely. not that it will make much of a difference. I have been Gal scout since open beta. Will be Gal scout when they shut the servers down. I agree i have never been a big fan of the scan range bonus on the Gal scout. For two reasons 1) the cal scout already has this bonus and I don't see any reasoning in giving two scouts the same racial bonus. 2) it does not work that well with the second bonus. If you look at that cal scout both bonuses make perfect sense in creating a unique role as both strengthen each other. That's pretty cool. Now the gal scout can equip two prec enhancers to make some use of the scanrange but for me this bonus does not fit to a role and makes little sense in combination with the profile dampening. I really have problems in finding the role CCP intended for the gal scout. There are of curse combinations that would make a great role: Dampening + NK or SG or sidearm damage bonus = stealthy assassin Dampening + Hacking bonus = the true hacker unseen and fast Dampening + Scanrange = ??? Obviously you're a cal scout. The cal scout racial bonus is OP with squad vision. Remove the bonus or remove squad vision. CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 963	Posted - 2014.06.02 17:30:00 - [612] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: voidfaction wrote: Gal range bonus needs removed completely. not that it will make much of a difference. I have been Gal scout since open beta. Will be Gal scout when they shut the servers down. I agree i have never been a big fan of the scan range bonus on the Gal scout. For two reasons 1) the cal scout already has this bonus and I don't see any reasoning in giving two scouts the same racial bonus. 2) it does not work that well with the second bonus. If you look at that cal scout both bonuses make perfect sense in creating a unique role as both strengthen each other. That's pretty cool. Now the gal scout can equip two prec enhancers to make some use of the scanrange but for me this bonus does not fit to a role and makes little sense in combination with the profile dampening. I really have problems in finding the role CCP intended for the gal scout. There are of curse combinations that would make a great role: Dampening + NK or SG or sidearm damage bonus = stealthy assassin Dampening + Hacking bonus = the true hacker unseen and fast Dampening + Scanrange = ??? Obviously you're a cal scout. The cal scout racial bonus is OP with squad vision. Remove the bonus or remove squad vision. WTF how in hell did you come to this conclusion?? I am running gal scout since closed Beta more or less exclusively
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 897	Posted - 2014.06.02 17:38:00 - [613] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Ares 514 wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: voidfaction wrote: Gal range bonus needs removed completely. not that it will make much of a difference. I have been Gal scout since open beta. Will be Gal scout when they shut the servers down. I agree i have never been a big fan of the scan range bonus on the Gal scout. For two reasons 1) the cal scout already has this bonus and I don't see any reasoning in giving two scouts the same racial bonus. 2) it does not work that well with the second bonus. If you look at that cal scout both bonuses make perfect sense in creating a unique role as both strengthen each other. That's pretty cool. Now the gal scout can equip two prec enhancers to make some use of the scanrange but for me this bonus does not fit to a role and makes little sense in combination with the profile dampening. I really have problems in finding the role CCP intended for the gal scout. There are of curse combinations that would make a great role: Dampening + NK or SG or sidearm damage bonus = stealthy assassin Dampening + Hacking bonus = the true hacker unseen and fast Dampening + Scanrange = ??? Obviously you're a cal scout. The cal scout racial bonus is OP with squad vision. Remove the bonus or remove squad vision. WTF how in hell did you come to this conclusion?? I am running gal scout since closed Beta more or less exclusively Well then you have a crush on the cal scout. The gal scout is about stealth and the SG in my opinion. The better range was to help you find targets to sneak up on. Of course everyone has their own views. Still any opinion on the cal scout racial bonus being to OP as I mentioned above? CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.
Argetlam Thorson Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 51	Posted - 2014.06.02 17:59:00 - [614] - Quote emtbraincase wrote: My $0.02 would be to make plates slow down a suit more when stacked on lighter fittings (meaning real-world implications to encumbrance). A scout with 3-4 plates should actually move slower than a heavy with those same 3-4 plates because it is less encumbered by that weight. Think of it this way, if you weigh 145 lbs vs someone at 215 lbs, and someone else hands each of you a 250 lbs sack, the 145 lbs person would possibly not even be able to move, let alone quickly, while the 215 lbs individual may move slower but likely can move closer to their norm. Most people aren't having problems with what is being discussed, it is the fact that they can do it with 700 hp of armor while retaining their speed. If you make them slower, then their major benefit is removed and all you had to do was what makes sense from a physics standpoint. I doubt that many people would be as upset by the undetectable scout if all they had to do was sneeze toward it to put it down. I definitely think the problem is too many people use the minimap instead of their eyes. Or maybe make classes of plates-light, medium, and heavy (militia - pro of all). For example, a light proto plate only gives you 60 hp extra but has no movement penalty on heavy and very low on scout. On the other end of the spectrum proto heavy plate gives you 180 hp extra (per plate) but a 7% penalty to heavies and 10% to scouts. This would give more variation on speed vs ehp while balancing them on the scout, since a near undetectable Gal Scout running 1k EHP runs at the speed of a heavy, while scouts who want to speed tank could still add a light plate or two. This would mean a Gal Heavy stacking plates would be almost a god sticking on a single point, but in open terrain would be a sitting...er, waddling duck. I know the light plate is pretty much what Ferroscale is, but if you changed it to weight class plates, each weight class of plate could have a movement penalty to each weight class suit.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 965	Posted - 2014.06.02 23:40:00 - [615] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: Ares 514 wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: voidfaction wrote: Gal range bonus needs removed completely. not that it will make much of a difference. I have been Gal scout since open beta. Will be Gal scout when they shut the servers down. I agree i have never been a big fan of the scan range bonus on the Gal scout. For two reasons 1) the cal scout already has this bonus and I don't see any reasoning in giving two scouts the same racial bonus. 2) it does not work that well with the second bonus. If you look at that cal scout both bonuses make perfect sense in creating a unique role as both strengthen each other. That's pretty cool. Now the gal scout can equip two prec enhancers to make some use of the scanrange but for me this bonus does not fit to a role and makes little sense in combination with the profile dampening. I really have problems in finding the role CCP intended for the gal scout. There are of curse combinations that would make a great role: Dampening + NK or SG or sidearm damage bonus = stealthy assassin Dampening + Hacking bonus = the true hacker unseen and fast Dampening + Scanrange = ??? Obviously you're a cal scout. The cal scout racial bonus is OP with squad vision. Remove the bonus or remove squad vision. WTF how in hell did you come to this conclusion?? I am running gal scout since closed Beta more or less exclusively Well then you have a crush on the cal scout. The gal scout is about stealth and the SG in my opinion. The better range was to help you find targets to sneak up on. Of course everyone has their own views. Still any opinion on the cal scout racial bonus being to OP as I mentioned above? To be honest I hate the cal scout as this suit seems extremely glitchi...the squad vision thing must be a bug (that CCP will probably never fix) As I said by the fact both cal scouts bonusses strenghten each other that makes them soo powerful. My statement regarding the scanrange on the gal scout was really just related to the missing role. The role you mentioned can be performed way better by the cal scout (especially after the gal scout nerf). So basically I want a different (unnerfed bonus that fits to a role).
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 965	Posted - 2014.06.02 23:47:00 - [616] - Quote Argetlam Thorson wrote: emtbraincase wrote: My $0.02 would be to make plates slow down a suit more when stacked on lighter fittings (meaning real-world implications to encumbrance). A scout with 3-4 plates should actually move slower than a heavy with those same 3-4 plates because it is less encumbered by that weight. Think of it this way, if you weigh 145 lbs vs someone at 215 lbs, and someone else hands each of you a 250 lbs sack, the 145 lbs person would possibly not even be able to move, let alone quickly, while the 215 lbs individual may move slower but likely can move closer to their norm. Most people aren't having problems with what is being discussed, it is the fact that they can do it with 700 hp of armor while retaining their speed. If you make them slower, then their major benefit is removed and all you had to do was what makes sense from a physics standpoint. I doubt that many people would be as upset by the undetectable scout if all they had to do was sneeze toward it to put it down. I definitely think the problem is too many people use the minimap instead of their eyes. Or maybe make classes of plates-light, medium, and heavy (militia - pro of all). For example, a light proto plate only gives you 60 hp extra but has no movement penalty on heavy and very low on scout. On the other end of the spectrum proto heavy plate gives you 180 hp extra (per plate) but a 7% penalty to heavies and 10% to scouts. This would give more variation on speed vs ehp while balancing them on the scout, since a near undetectable Gal Scout running 1k EHP runs at the speed of a heavy, while scouts who want to speed tank could still add a light plate or two. This would mean a Gal Heavy stacking plates would be almost a god sticking on a single point, but in open terrain would be a sitting...er, waddling duck. I know the light plate is pretty much what Ferroscale is, but if you changed it to weight class plates, each weight class of plate could have a movement penalty to each weight class suit. A heavy plated scout already is slow, very slow...but I am not against light medium and heavy plates I made supported this suggestion already elsewhere. my suggestion would be: be light plates (like the current reactive ones without movement penalty) medium plates like ferroscales small penalty for light suits an no for med/heavy frames Heavy plates like std plates big penalty on scouts moderate on med/heavy frames
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1270	Posted - 2014.06.02 23:49:00 - [617] - Quote Argetlam Thorson wrote: emtbraincase wrote: My $0.02 would be to make plates slow down a suit more when stacked on lighter fittings (meaning real-world implications to encumbrance). A scout with 3-4 plates should actually move slower than a heavy with those same 3-4 plates because it is less encumbered by that weight. Think of it this way, if you weigh 145 lbs vs someone at 215 lbs, and someone else hands each of you a 250 lbs sack, the 145 lbs person would possibly not even be able to move, let alone quickly, while the 215 lbs individual may move slower but likely can move closer to their norm. Most people aren't having problems with what is being discussed, it is the fact that they can do it with 700 hp of armor while retaining their speed. If you make them slower, then their major benefit is removed and all you had to do was what makes sense from a physics standpoint. I doubt that many people would be as upset by the undetectable scout if all they had to do was sneeze toward it to put it down. I definitely think the problem is too many people use the minimap instead of their eyes. Or maybe make classes of plates-light, medium, and heavy (militia - pro of all). For example, a light proto plate only gives you 60 hp extra but has no movement penalty on heavy and very low on scout. On the other end of the spectrum proto heavy plate gives you 180 hp extra (per plate) but a 7% penalty to heavies and 10% to scouts. This would give more variation on speed vs ehp while balancing them on the scout, since a near undetectable Gal Scout running 1k EHP runs at the speed of a heavy, while scouts who want to speed tank could still add a light plate or two. This would mean a Gal Heavy stacking plates would be almost a god sticking on a single point, but in open terrain would be a sitting...er, waddling duck. I know the light plate is pretty much what Ferroscale is, but if you changed it to weight class plates, each weight class of plate could have a movement penalty to each weight class suit. This already exists. Ferroscale plate. The problem is that, until the Alpha changes drop, plate armor gives more HP, costs less to fit, and has a nominal impact on speed. There is literally no reason to run 'light plate'. The planned Alpha changes should go some way to addressing this, but I would have preffered the % reduction in speed to be increased for plate armor, to 4%/6%/8%. Knowledge is power
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 461	Posted - 2014.06.03 01:48:00 - [618] - Quote or perhaps make movement accelerate the use rate of the cloaking duration Support Balancing scouts
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 461	Posted - 2014.06.03 02:08:00 - [619] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: Ares 514 wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: voidfaction wrote: Gal range bonus needs removed completely. not that it will make much of a difference. I have been Gal scout since open beta. Will be Gal scout when they shut the servers down. I agree i have never been a big fan of the scan range bonus on the Gal scout. For two reasons 1) the cal scout already has this bonus and I don't see any reasoning in giving two scouts the same racial bonus. 2) it does not work that well with the second bonus. If you look at that cal scout both bonuses make perfect sense in creating a unique role as both strengthen each other. That's pretty cool. Now the gal scout can equip two prec enhancers to make some use of the scanrange but for me this bonus does not fit to a role and makes little sense in combination with the profile dampening. I really have problems in finding the role CCP intended for the gal scout. There are of curse combinations that would make a great role: Dampening + NK or SG or sidearm damage bonus = stealthy assassin Dampening + Hacking bonus = the true hacker unseen and fast Dampening + Scanrange = ??? Obviously you're a cal scout. The cal scout racial bonus is OP with squad vision. Remove the bonus or remove squad vision. WTF how in hell did you come to this conclusion?? I am running gal scout since closed Beta more or less exclusively Well then you have a crush on the cal scout. The gal scout is about stealth and the SG in my opinion. The better range was to help you find targets to sneak up on. Of course everyone has their own views. Still any opinion on the cal scout racial bonus being to OP as I mentioned above? This is the main problem I have with the hotfix. Removing gall range bonus is stupid, and should be rethought carefully. Support Balancing scouts
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1271	Posted - 2014.06.03 02:11:00 - [620] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: or perhaps make movement accelerate the use rate of the cloaking duration You know what else might have worked? The original implementaiton that was planned. If CCP had retained the ability to fire from cloak, with the associated drain on cloaks when firing, shot gun scouts would be naked after killing one player for at (minimum) 15sec while waiting for their cloak to charge back to half charge. We could have had 'waves of oportunity' and instead we a got broken implementation due to an pre-nerf forced by the community. Knowledge is power

Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 899	Posted - 2014.06.03 06:55:00 - [621] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: or perhaps make movement accelerate the use rate of the cloaking duration You know what else might have worked? The original implementaiton that was planned. If CCP had retained the ability to fire from cloak, with the associated drain on cloaks when firing, shot gun scouts would be naked after killing one player for at (minimum) 15sec while waiting for their cloak to charge back to half charge. We could have had 'waves of oportunity' and instead we a got broken implementation due to an pre-nerf forced by the community. Interesting point. CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 899	Posted - 2014.06.03 06:57:00 - [622] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Ares 514 wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: Ares 514 wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: ..... I agree i have never been a big fan of the scan range bonus on the Gal scout. For two reasons 1) the cal scout already has this bonus and I don't see any reasoning in giving two scouts the same racial bonus. 2) it does not work that well with the second bonus. If you look at that cal scout both bonuses make perfect sense in creating a unique role as both strengthen each other. That's pretty cool. Now the gal scout can equip two prec enhancers to make some use of the scanrange but for me this bonus does not fit to a role and makes little sense in combination with the profile dampening. I really have problems in finding the role CCP intended for the gal scout. There are of curse combinations that would make a great role: Dampening + NK or SG or sidearm damage bonus = stealthy assassin Dampening + Hacking bonus = the true hacker unseen and fast Dampening + Scanrange = ??? Obviously you're a cal scout. The cal scout racial bonus is OP with squad vision. Remove the bonus or remove squad vision. WTF how in hell did you come to this conclusion?? I am running gal scout since closed Beta more or less exclusively Well then you have a crush on the cal scout. The gal scout is about stealth and the SG in my opinion. The better range was to help you find targets to sneak up on. Of course everyone has their own views. Still any opinion on the cal scout racial bonus being to OP as I mentioned above? To be honest I hate the cal scout as this suit seems extremely glitchi...the squad vision thing must be a bug (that CCP will probably never fix) As I said by the fact both cal scouts bonusses strenghten each other that makes them soo powerful. My statement regarding the scanrange on the gal scout was really just related to the missing role. The role you mentioned can be performed way better by the cal scout (especially after the gal scout nerf). So basically I want a different (unnerfed bonus that fits to a role). Agree something is messed with the cal scout hit detection. After the nerf I agree the cal scout probably makes a better SG user. I wanted to have the fast gal scout SG fit but with the stun lock effect I have found this unusable. CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time.
superjoe360x D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 347	Posted - 2014.06.03 07:03:00 - [623] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: still say just remove the 2nd equipment slot if they want to run uplinks, they have to sacrifice the cloak. Removes alot of options for the gall scout, but still leaves doors open. This is what I say needs to be done to balance scouts. No more cloaked RE guys. No more cloaked uplinkers. It forces you to use a gun with the cloak. Commander, Director of DL and Leader of The SS Elite Squad *FIGHT THE POWER
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 899	Posted - 2014.06.03 07:05:00 - [624] - Quote superjoe360x wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: still say just remove the 2nd equipment slot if they want to run uplinks, they have to sacrifice the cloak. Removes alot of options for the gall scout, but still leaves doors open. This is what I say needs to be done to balance scouts. No more cloaked RE guys. No more cloaked uplinkers. It forces you to use a gun with the cloak. Check out my new sig :) Overlord of Broman.
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 899	Posted - 2014.06.03 07:05:00 - [625] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: superjoe360x wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: still say just remove the 2nd equipment slot if they want to run uplinks, they have to sacrifice the cloak. Removes alot of options for the gall scout, but still leaves doors open. This is what I say needs to be done to balance scouts. No more cloaked RE guys. No more cloaked uplinkers. It forces you to use a gun with the cloak. Check out my new sig :) Oh, and shut your dirty mouth!:) Overlord of Broman.
Argetlam Thorson Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 52	Posted - 2014.06.03 07:32:00 - [626] - Quote superjoe360x wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: still say just remove the 2nd equipment slot if they want to run uplinks, they have to sacrifice the cloak. Removes alot of options for the gall scout, but still leaves doors open. This is what I say needs to be done to balance scouts. No more cloaked RE guys. No more cloaked uplinkers. It forces you to use a gun with the cloak. Actually, running as a heavy, I probably would have agreed that scouts have no need for two equip slots, but running as a Min Scout, I have changed my mind. Yeah, suicide killers suck (looking at you nickmunson), but the two slots allow me to really use my Min Scout. Cloak up, run to a point, hack it, drop RE, run away. I shouldn't be able/encouraged to actively defend a point, but that RE helps me ensure that my hack goes through. The suicide scouts aren't a big thing I've encountered, but I have a hard enough time making hacks go through with my Min Scout that if I didn't have RE's I don't know what I would do for WP since blueberries don't hack or defend objectives....I guess I could fit my scout suit for assault, but it shouldn't preform that role as well as the hacking ninja it is supposed to be.
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1275	Posted - 2014.06.03 08:05:00 - [627] - Quote superjoe360x wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: still say just remove the 2nd equipment slot if they want to run uplinks, they have to sacrifice the cloak. Removes alot of options for the gall scout, but still leaves doors open. This is what I say needs to be done to balance scouts. No more cloaked RE guys. No more cloaked uplinkers. It forces you to use a gun with the cloak. Thus balancing the cloaked brick tanked shotgun scout once and for all! Oh...wait... Knowledge is power
emtbraincase Savage Bullet 177	Posted - 2014.06.03 16:01:00 - [628] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: A heavy plated scout already is slow, very slow...but I am not against light medium and heavy plates I made supported this suggestion already elsewhere. my suggestion would be: be light plates (like the current reactive ones without movement penalty) medium plates like ferroscales small penalty for light suits an no for med/heavy frames Heavy plates like std plates big penalty on scouts moderate on med/heavy frames I have one, and you are incorrect, sir. 3 complex plates and a complex kincat has the Galscout moving at almost the exact same speed, the same jumping, but has about 400HP more armor than before (which is more or it than most of my fits), and yet can still put RE and lvl 1 cloak. P.S> you just agreed with what I originally said, but I did it by ignoring types of plates (no new client-side patches, so no change in their existance) and instead focusing on how a suit reacts to those plates already in place (which I hope doesn't require client-side patch). So I thank you for that, but you are wrong about an armor tanked Galscout being slow already, and please reconsider the option I put forth again with these factors included.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 461	Posted - 2014.06.04 02:14:00 - [629] - Quote Brokerib wrote: superjoe360x wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: still say just remove the 2nd equipment slot if they want to run uplinks, they have to sacrifice the cloak. Removes alot of options for the gall scout, but still leaves doors open. This is what I say needs to be done to balance scouts. No more cloaked RE guys. No more cloaked uplinkers. It forces you to use a gun with the cloak. Thus balancing the cloaked brick tanked shotgun scout once and for all! Oh...wait... Changing cloaking properties and such isn't going to stop people from tanking armor, it just hurts the ones who play the role correctly more than anything else. Fix the assault suits before nerfing everything else into the ground. Support Balancing scouts
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1335	Posted - 2014.06.04 02:31:00 - [630] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Fix the assault suits before nerfing everything else into the ground. That's exactly what I said, but I think its too late to change course. If we must risk being broken, then so be it. Scouts have been through worse for longer. The end-game is balance. Rattati may break us, but he won't leave us broken. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2517	Posted - 2014.06.04 02:33:00 - [631] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Brokerib wrote: superjoe360x wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: still say just remove the 2nd equipment slot if they want to run uplinks, they have to sacrifice the cloak. Removes alot of options for the gall scout, but still leaves doors open. This is what I say needs to be done to balance scouts. No more cloaked RE guys. No more cloaked uplinkers. It forces you to use a gun with the cloak. Thus balancing the cloaked brick tanked shotgun scout once and for all! Oh...wait... Changing cloaking properties and such isn't going to stop people from tanking armor, it just hurts the ones who play the role correctly more than anything else. Fix the assault suits before nerfing everything else into the ground. That was the point of his post........... Anyways, you're right, nerfing cloaking and in general stealth gameplay isn't going to fix Gal scouts. They are supposed to be ghosts after all, so nerfing that just further pushes Gal scouts into tanking up, which is counter productive............ click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 899	Posted - 2014.06.04 06:50:00 - [632] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: Brokerib wrote: superjoe360x wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: still say just remove the 2nd equipment slot if they want to run uplinks, they have to sacrifice the cloak. Removes alot of options for the gall scout, but still leaves doors open. This is what I say needs to be done to balance scouts. No more cloaked RE guys. No more cloaked uplinkers. It forces you to use a gun with the cloak. Thus balancing the cloaked brick tanked shotgun scout once and for all! Oh...wait... Changing cloaking properties and such isn't going to stop people from tanking armor, it just hurts the ones who play the role correctly more than anything else. Fix the assault suits before nerfing everything else into the ground. That was the point of his post........... Anyways, you're right, nerfing cloaking and in general stealth gameplay isn't going to fix Gal scouts. They are supposed to be ghosts after all, so nerfing that just further pushes Gal scouts into tanking up, which is counter productive............ Exactly. The only viable fit I see now is tanking. I'll miss my old suits but they're all broken with these changes to dampening and my racial bonus changes. I expect the majority of scouts will be forced to this, especially in PC where 1 cal scout fucks your side. Overlord of Broman
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 966	Posted - 2014.06.04 10:13:00 - [633] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: Exactly. The only viable fit I see now is tanking. I'll miss my old suits but they're all broken with these changes to dampening and my racial bonus changes. I expect the majority of scouts will be forced to this, especially in PC where 1 cal scout fucks your side. I guess most will simply switch to the cal scout wich is indeed a great suit and way better than the gal scout (if you know what you are doing)... It saddens me that CCP hit the gal scout sooo hard. I could get behind the dampening nerf (even though I believe a buff to precision enhancers to the level of profile dampeners would be way better) but the scan range reducion to 1% is just ridiculous. Instead of nerfing this bonus to the ground CCP should simply exchange this bonus with something else...but I guess this won't happen ;( CCP really seems to hate gallente stuff...worst weapons, and now two suits that are not really worth speccing into...sad really sad.
BL4CKST4R Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 2834	Posted - 2014.06.04 11:33:00 - [634] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Ares 514 wrote: Exactly. The only viable fit I see now is tanking. I'll miss my old suits but they're all broken with these changes to dampening and my racial bonus changes. I expect the majority of scouts will be forced to this, especially in PC where 1 cal scout fucks your side. I guess most will simply switch to the cal scout wich is indeed a great suit and way better than the gal scout (if you know what you are doing)... It saddens me that CCP hit the gal scout sooo hard. I could get behind the dampening nerf (even though I believe a buff to precision enhancers to the level of profile dampeners would be way better) but the scan range reducion to 1% is just ridiculous. Instead of nerfing this bonus to the ground CCP should simply exchange this bonus with something else...but I guess this won't happen ;( CCP really seems to hate gallente stuff...worst weapons, and now two suits that are not really worth speccing into...sad really sad. I have specced into everything that is Gallente except the only thing that works... the heavy suit. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious


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