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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 25 post(s) |
IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1145
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Posted - 2014.05.22 21:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible.
To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks.
Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout.
The first thing that could be changed is the gal scouts range bonus. Why do they have it? It really doesn't correlate to the role of damping. If CCP could translate this damp bonus to your squad mates in the radius it would have a purpose, but I don't think thats something CCP can implement. This would provide a pretty good counter to the caldari.
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1147
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Posted - 2014.05.23 01:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:IgniteableAura wrote:First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible.
To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks.
Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout. I think between my post that would rebalance e-war and starfire's post about scout roles being reworked in addition to squad vision being scrapped we can fix the void left by the passive complex damp. But absolutely cloaks giving a passive complex dampener is dumb. Rebalance so the cloak is an equipment only.
Completely reworking the scout bonuses would likely incur a respec. Not something I think we need right now (not to mention would ruin the metrics they are likely trying to run with balance). Without respec you step on the toes of all the people who put SP into a role they wanted to play.
If cloak provides no damp bonus most scouts who run them won't use them (lets be real honest, cloaks are only fitted for their damp bonus or to abuse the delay problems)....making the role bonus for scouts useless.
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1151
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Posted - 2014.05.23 13:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
The-Errorist wrote:IgniteableAura wrote:First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible.
To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks.
Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout.
The first thing that could be changed is the gal scouts range bonus. Why do they have it? It really doesn't correlate to the role of damping. If CCP could translate this damp bonus to your squad mates in the radius it would have a purpose, but I don't think thats something CCP can implement. This would provide a pretty good counter to the caldari. Read post #86You only need 1 damp to hide from non-precision mod using Cal scouts and normal prototype scanners that aren't being used by the Gal logi, which also has a role bonus towards scanning (passive vs active), and 2 if it is being used by a Gal logi. If you want to be able to hide from a Gal logi using a prototype focused active scanner or a cal scout using 2 precison mods with only 2 damps on a scout that does not have a bonus towards dampening, you're just asking for too much. I also support removing shared passive scan. I would support having waves of opportunity from from cloak modules only if standard cloaks started off with a 0% dampening bonus and a higher percentage for adv and pro cloaks like Rattati suggested. This would alleviate the brick tanking scout w/ super low profile problem and still allow people to get a waves of dampening opportunity by using higher tier cloaks. Not every scout needs to be perfect hiders like the Gallente, they each should have their own roles other than dampening.
Again with people not understanding the game mechanics. No scout can avoid cal scans with 2 complex precision enhancers without at least 2 damps, PERIOD. UNLESS they use a cloak. Which then gives them a wave of opportunity to hide without completely compromising their fit for it.
Current numbers (rounded up because thats how game mechanics work):
Cal w/ 2cPE: 18dB
Gal w/ 1cPD: 18dB (scanned)
Cal/Amarr/Minnie w/ 2cPD: 18dB (scanned)
Any Cal scout running 2cPE is a squishy target <200 shields. EVEN more so if they are running range amps. They currently can't hide from other cal scout scans either. So cals have two counters. Another cal scout, OR a gal scout.
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1155
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Posted - 2014.05.23 21:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Spartan MK420 wrote:
The arrow over their head is brighter :P
Not like they can't equip more than just 1 active scanner, including the type. It's equipment slots, not high and lows like scouts need to use. Thus you don't lose your survivability (hp) to perform scans.
We have to equip multiple modules to make our passives worth a ****, otherwise any medium with a brain can counter our passives.
There are a ton of PROs for active scanners, on top of what spartan mentioned. There is a huge flexibility in them. Passive scans dont really showcase where enemies are located nearly as well and they don't show up on the overhead map for SLs trying to drop orbitals. Passive scans only show enemies for squad mates that are close enough for them to pop on their own radar while active scanners show up regardless of range.
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1155
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Posted - 2014.05.24 05:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Wowzer.
Ok the main reason gal is used 50% of the time is because of its low slots, innate repair and ability to remain off the radar.; all the while maintaining a large hp pool. It's basically able to have cake and eat it too. Other scouts really have to sacrafice a great deal to perform their roles well.
If you remove the current balance there won't be an ewar battle. Having a really powerful scan range out to a max of 30m is basically useless, 30m won't give you any notice of a threat before it's too late. You won't have cal scouts running anything but hp mods again. A small nerf sure, but anything less than about 40m provides no real benefit.
Honestly the proposed changes won't do a damn thing to change the fact gal scouts as the primary scout in PC. Their ability to remain hidden is not the sole reason they are used. Again gal scouts have a lot of PROs and the other scouts are just plain outclassed by it. Zatara hit it on the head when he said people run cal to force the other team to run damp gal scouts. That's a working system in my book.
As far as the various roles of the different scouts, not all scouts should be unscannable. I think it should remain a special role for gal scouts. If you want to remain hidden that's the scout you play, want to run and knife people use the Minnie. Want to provide over watch for your team run cal.
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1155
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Posted - 2014.05.24 05:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zatara, if it's that difficult to stay hidden they simply won't do it. They will instead fit plates. It homogenizes the battlefield when things get to difficult to counter.
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1156
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Posted - 2014.05.24 05:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Rattati read my post above yours. Basically states answers to your current changes.
Why should a scout sacrifice their ENTIRE fitting just to remain hidden from a single piece if equipment.
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1156
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Posted - 2014.05.24 05:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
But a gal logi only needs to fit a single piece of equipment that costs them very little.
Honestly, you won't get any gal scouts attempting to remain hidden. They will just brick tank instead.
4 slots(3 damps and an active pro cloak) to counter a single piece of equipment. It just sounds ridiculous. Seriously, no one will do it
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1158
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Posted - 2014.05.24 05:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Why not make it so scouts are only immune to active scanners when cloak is applied? Each cloak meta works on the same meta and below as the scanner. So pro cloak hides pro scans, adv cloak adv scans. You would get the same effect but at least it's tit for tat in terms of slots needed.
Cloak works independent of active scans, so if a gal scout wants to remain hidden from cal scout they need to sacrifice as much as cal scout did to notice them,
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1164
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Posted - 2014.05.24 14:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
I want to recap real quick. For a gal scout to hide from gal logi focused scans they need to be cloaked and have 3 low slots filled with damps.
The problem is, they only have 45 seconds of time to remain invisible. Once scanned it's too late(active scan mechanics keep you lit up on tac net even if your profile drops due to cloaks) This sort of nerf will not allow gal scouts to be invisible. Gal logi WILL spam focused tools to create a window of opportunity that won't allow gal scouts to remain hidden. Therefore no scout will ever remain hidden.
Caldari scout could never remain invisible, this is not new. Radar invisibility is not the problem with gal scouts.
Again i think it's better off to make it so cloaks hide you from active scans of the same meta level. Allow gal scouts to hide from focused scans. It's mathematically possible and likely going to take a lot of thought. That's the only appropriate way to balance.
Lastly, I'll say it again, four slots AND use of an active mod to defeat a single piece of equipment is not balanced. The sacrifice a must take to hide is not worth the cost to do so. Therefore it won't happen because it's not guaranteed to keep them off the radar(active module)
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1164
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Posted - 2014.05.24 15:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:IgniteableAura wrote:I want to recap real quick. For a gal scout to hide from gal logi focused scans they need to be cloaked and have 3 low slots filled with damps.
The problem is, they only have 45 seconds of time to remain invisible. Once scanned it's too late(active scan mechanics keep you lit up on tac net even if your profile drops due to cloaks) This sort of nerf will not allow gal scouts to be invisible. Gal logi WILL spam focused tools to create a window of opportunity that won't allow gal scouts to remain hidden. Therefore no scout will ever remain hidden.
Caldari scout could never remain invisible, this is not new. Radar invisibility is not the problem with gal scouts.
Again i think it's better off to make it so cloaks hide you from active scans of the same meta level. Allow gal scouts to hide from focused scans. It's mathematically possible and likely going to take a lot of thought. That's the only appropriate way to balance.
Lastly, I'll say it again, four slots AND use of an active mod to defeat a single piece of equipment is not balanced. The sacrifice a must take to hide is not worth the cost to do so. Therefore it won't happen because it's not guaranteed to keep them off the radar(active module) a gal with 3 damps will be under enough that the cloak bonus doesn't matter. The other scouts wil have 45 seconds to accomplish a goal and regroup. we agree on the 4 slots. Make it 3 slots max. As for the underline..I can't tell if you think this is currently? cause it's not. if you think this has been proposed? I haven't seen Ratatti sign off on a nerf that would make the gal need 3 YET.
CCP Rattati wrote:
A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB.
14dB means under the focused radar.
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1164
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Posted - 2014.05.24 15:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Brokerib wrote:IgniteableAura wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB.
14dB means under the focused radar. Apologies, sidebar. Wasn't there some discussion about whether these values ended up being round up by the system, as previously getting down to 17.8 profile would still be scanned by an 18dB scan? Is that still the case, and will 13.5 round up to 14, meaning that the Gal can't get below the scanner? Just curious, as to the best of my knowledge the exact working of the mechanism has never been confirmed by CCP, so most of our calcs are working on assumptions and field work, not the actual details.
Correct, dB values round up and ties go to the scanner. Focused scans at 15dB so after rounding you would need to be 14 or under, or 3 slots for damps new proposal.
Other suits would need 4 complex damps and cloak..
BlazeXYZ wrote:
Basically proves that gallente logi is the all mighty scanning machine beating the caldari scout. Is this what you call balance to the game.
Cal scouts can get to 15, but requires their entire fit, as opposed to a single piece of equipment.
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1164
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Posted - 2014.05.24 15:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Quick thought after doing some math under current proposal. 15% bonus to damps.
Three damps is all thats required for Gal to remain under gal focused scans. Pro cloak never changes any sort of meaningful change. (2 damps + cloak wont get you under) So therefore, gal likely won't ever utilize cloak for damps/stealh. The 10% bonus will only help nongal scouts remain hidden.
Haerr's table: https://googledrive.com/host/0B_YSJ6FRJlihcDhjZ3l0LVpVa3c/alpha.html
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1165
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Posted - 2014.05.24 15:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Actually current proposal is fine if the numbers are true. rather than Rattai's statement (3 damps + cloak). Gal scout only needs 3 damps to remain hidden, no cloak. Cloak has no bearing on any meaningful counters except at proto level against a gal logi focused scans with nongal scouts.
The proposal won't change gameplay much for true scouts. Other than the need to fit a damp instead of fit cloak. Making brick tanking less viable.
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1166
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Posted - 2014.05.24 16:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:IgniteableAura wrote:Actually current proposal is fine if the numbers are true. rather than Rattai's statement (3 damps + cloak). Gal scout only needs 3 damps to remain hidden, no cloak. Cloak has no bearing on any meaningful counters except at proto level against a gal logi focused scans with nongal scouts.
The proposal won't change gameplay much for true scouts. Other than the need to fit a damp instead of fit cloak. Making brick tanking less viable. Success!!!!!!!!!! Huzzah!
Well if the purpose is to make cloaking somewhat niche. Adv cloak provides no tangible benefit other than increased time over basic. Pro cloak is only useful to non-gal scouts for undetectable builds. Cloak will go into the pub only bin after hotfix.
PC meta will remain largely unchanged. Gal scouts currently need to fit 2 complex damps to remain hidden, so after hotfix they will need to fit three and won't have cloak to rely upon for its damp bonus allowing them to use those two equipment slots for something else.
RIP Cloak. Sad scouts have a role bonus to something that won't likely be used in competitive play.
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
1171
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Posted - 2014.05.26 05:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
1% bonus per level.....lol. Might as well not even have a bonus.
That's insignificant.
At max skills that's 1.5m extra.
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