DUST Search - [Feedback] Gallente scouts

Brokerib wrote:

Correct, the maths is full of assumptions and shortcuts. The original example was put together as a hypothetical only and was intended to be indicitive, to answer a comment in the Barbershop about making all HP modules % based.
The 20% was arbritary and used to model in a way that mimics the current end total HP of a Gal heavy, and HP were applied without stacking penalty and against base HP only to simplify the calculations. I am in no way suggesting that this is the correct % or implementation.

The intent of my post (as opposed to the execution), was to demonstrate that while % based increase would stop scouts from being able to brick tank, it also removes the ability for scouts to tank in any reasonable way. Assault scouts are a valid playstyle, and removing a valid playstyle due to issues with the current implementation of modules is a poor choice at best.

Making all HP modules % based would make them unusable for light suits, particularly for ferro and reactive plates. If we were to go down the path of % HP modules, it would be a better choice to make a % based module for high base HP suits, with static modules to alow scouts limited, but useful, HP gain. This would have the additional benefit of pushing scouts towards using ferro/reactive plate, thus increasing fitting options while maintaining the playstyle option.

Coupled with this, the current medium base HP totals would mean that they would be similarly affected by the change, nerfing an already underperforming class.

Your argument that all other modules are % based is invalid, as it's based on the falicy that all modules should work by the same mechanism. There's no reasoning behind that, just an assumption. Weapons aren't % based, and HP modules should be balanced around incoming damage and not other modules.

Your suggestion is only workable if every suit and every HP module is re-worked, which is unlikely in the current environment.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 25 post(s)
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1074	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:25:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the only viable (PC) meta? Go! The problem with the gallente/caldari and amarr/minmatar scouts is really fundamental design of the suits and imbalances in slots. Scout suits (as all suits in this game) seem to have two design goals, a generalized role (class role) and a specialized role (racial role). These characteristics can broadly define the suits as ewar and stealth suits. The generalized role is outlined by base stats, slot layouts, and class-wide bonuses. In the case of scouts as a whole you have low base HP high base speed and stamina cloaks great precision/profiles/range (ewar) Then you have genralized racial base stat bonuses" amarr - higher HP/stamina and low speed caldari - shield recharge gallente - armor regen minmatar - insane stamina regen, great speed, inate hacking and low HP So from the get go, you already have a balance problem, not all of these racial characteristics are equal Next you have specialization bonuses amarr - stamina/regen (1 lackluster biotic bonus) caldari - precision and range (2 great ewar bonuses) gallente - dampening and range (2 great ewar bonuses) minmatar - damage and hacking (1 lackluster damage and 1 good ewar-ish) As you can see, not all of the specialization bonuses are well balanced either. 2 suits have double ewar bonuses, 1 suit has no ewar bonus, and another suit has an ok ewar bonus. Compound all of the above with the scout's ability to have very large HP pools (due to absolute values aon tanking mods) and competitive damage (due to weapons mostly being the same acros suits) and you have your problems outlined. The solution to the gallente scout is too blook at the class as a whole, not individually. If you clearly define the roles that you want the scout to have, and then procedd from there you can then finally balance them all against eachother. Fixing swarms
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1075	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:31:00 - [2] - Quote To follow up, what would I do? Change HP modules to percentage based with stacking penalties. (this means you can put more HP on a scout, but you will never be HP competitive with a heavier suit) Give each suit ONE ewar based bonus (remove the scan range from caldari/gallente and then give it to amarr) Give each suit ONE other bonus (i.e. something to excentuate their racial profiles) This may mean altering the base stats across entire suits in order to make the suits unique. Fixing swarms
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1084	Posted - 2014.05.23 03:09:00 - [3] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: To follow up, what would I do? Change HP modules to percentage based with stacking penalties. (this means you can put more HP on a scout, but you will never be HP competitive with a heavier suit) Give each suit ONE ewar based bonus (remove the scan range from caldari/gallente and then give it to amarr) Give each suit ONE other bonus (i.e. something to excentuate their racial profiles) This may mean altering the base stats across entire suits in order to make the suits unique. (as has been shown before, the stamina/regen bonus to the amarr scout suit is completely pointless witht he way regen and speed interact) If you're going to change HP modules to % based, it should only be to plate armor. Have done the maths previously. % based for everything will destroy medium suits. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2169782#post2169782 Changing plate to % reduces their usefulness to scouts, and leaving fero/reactive as a straight number makes them viable. Your math is full of assumptions and shortcuts. Explain why 20%? Explain why no stacking penalties? Would the non-stacking penalized modules multiply in a compounding way or be lumped together? Every other module in Dust suffers from decreasing return on investment, why should HP mods be any bit different? Even the speed penalties for the armor plates are percentage based!! The way it is now, the plates add a dispropotionatly large amount of HP (as a percentage gain) to smaller suits, allowing them to have all of the advatanges of the light suit but to circumvent the drawbacks (wet paper towels for HP). This flies in the face of any balancing attempts, and it also makes the base HP stat much less important (part of the reason why medium suits are so entirely compromised right now). All of that aside (including the maths, I can just throw more figures at you as well.) Is something that you have overlooked. Every other module in the entire game. Due to the percentage based modules, no other suit is really going to be even close to a scout in the scouts roles (scan radius, profile, precision, speed, stamina, stamina regen, shield recharge, and hitbox size). Sure a medium suit might be able to come close to the scout in ONE area, but not the other 7. The scout can become compettive with medium suits by fitting HP mods, while retaining ALL of those advantages above. This is the problem we must address. Scouts are already kings of 7 different base stats in a game largely dictated by percentile gains. The only base stat that it is truely lacking is easily made up for by module in which the scout (relatively) gains the most from. No, as long as the rest of the modules in the game only allow suits to be competitive (stat wise) with suits from their same class, HP should absolutely be no different. Fixing swarms
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1088	Posted - 2014.05.23 06:56:00 - [4] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Correct, the maths is full of assumptions and shortcuts. The original example was put together as a hypothetical only and was intended to be indicitive, to answer a comment in the Barbershop about making all HP modules % based. The 20% was arbritary and used to model in a way that mimics the current end total HP of a Gal heavy, and HP were applied without stacking penalty and against base HP only to simplify the calculations. I am in no way suggesting that this is the correct % or implementation. The intent of my post (as opposed to the execution), was to demonstrate that while % based increase would stop scouts from being able to brick tank, it also removes the ability for scouts to tank in any reasonable way. Assault scouts are a valid playstyle, and removing a valid playstyle due to issues with the current implementation of modules is a poor choice at best. Making all HP modules % based would make them unusable for light suits, particularly for ferro and reactive plates. If we were to go down the path of % HP modules, it would be a better choice to make a % based module for high base HP suits, with static modules to alow scouts limited, but useful, HP gain. This would have the additional benefit of pushing scouts towards using ferro/reactive plate, thus increasing fitting options while maintaining the playstyle option. Coupled with this, the current medium base HP totals would mean that they would be similarly affected by the change, nerfing an already underperforming class. Your argument that all other modules are % based is invalid, as it's based on the falicy that all modules should work by the same mechanism. There's no reasoning behind that, just an assumption. Weapons aren't % based, and HP modules should be balanced around incoming damage and not other modules. Your suggestion is only workable if every suit and every HP module is re-worked, which is unlikely in the current environment. No, my assertion that all other modules in this game are based upon a STANDARD design philosophy that only two types of modules break, shield HP and armor HP modules. It is further reinforced by the fact that CCP has knowlingly designed suits that certain modules are just downright useless on. Your assumption that the"assault scout" as a viable playstyle is 100% opinion and with numerous counter examples in CCP game design. For instance, on heavy suits(i.e. commandos and sentinels) damps, scan range and scan precision mods are next to useless because of the incredibly poor base stats of these suits. Actually, Scan range mods are more or less useless on all suits but the scouts. You also convieniently skip over the fact that the "assault scout" is hands down better than an assault is given the current meta. The "assault scout" can come within ~1-200 eHP while having greater scan radius, scan precision, profile dampening, movement speed, sprint speed, strafing speed, jumping ability, stamina pool, stamina regen, shield regen and an extra equipment slot. This suit is only competitive because of the ludicrous amount of relative HP a scout can get from set value armor plates. No, we do not need a jack of all trades, master of most suit (what the scout is now). We need a return to suits competing with eachother (stat wise) within their own class, as all of the rest of the suits do. Your argument stems from the belief that you would increase fitting options for one class of suit, you totally disregard the fact that having one suit class that is superior to another in nearly every facet destroys variety it doesn't increase it. You rally for less of a meta, not more of one. Scout suits should be just that... scout suits. Just like how logi suits should be logisuits and assault suits should be assault suits and so on. The great fitting system that we have allows a large variety of fits within each class, and yes to allow each class to perform (with lesser efficiency) roles it is not intended for. Absolute value HP modules directly contradict that. Base stats SHOULD matter. Fixing swarms
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1091	Posted - 2014.05.23 15:53:00 - [5] - Quote Brokerib wrote: stuff. I think you are misrepresenting my view on the issue, while underplaying how incredibly unbalancing having scouts with over 500 eHP is, and while totally ignoring the fact that scouts as they are now beat out all of the rest of the suits in nearly every base stat. You keep ignoring how scouts are incredibly good at numerous roles aside from the HP reliant one (assaulting) but yet claim that this role should be in their forte as well. I think you are also not undersanding why everyone hates the amarr scout, it is precisely because it is just an assault suit (actually it is better than the amarr assault with all but the scrambler/laser). Actually the amarr scout is better than both the amarr assault (sans laser weaponry) and the basic amarr logi (same number of equipment slots) precisely because of base stats and how HP modules currently work. It has zero use as a scout, all of the other scout suits just offer more. On top of all of this, you keep bringing up weapons like that is some type of coutner-example, it isn't. Weapons are to base HP as weapon damage modifiers are to HP modifiers, this is pretty cut and dry so I don't feel like we need to spend more time on this. Why were logis better (and still are) at assaulting than assault suits? Because of HP modules in their current state.... why are scouts better than logis and assaults at assaulting? Because of HP modules in their current state. Once you get over that 6-700 eHP barrier, ~100 eHP isn't as important versatility. What you are defending is having scout overshadowing medium suits as a whole. What I am advocating is pretty plain and simple.... that scouts should NEVER compete with assaults in the assaulting role given it's many other roles. I mean jesus man, look at eve.. do you really think a frigate comes anywhere near lose to a cruiser in raw HP values? To further clarify this... it is like having interceptor/ewar frigs being able to have comparible HP values to the heavy assault cruisers n eve. It makes absolutely no sense from any perspective. If you want a light assault class, then petition CCP to make one, stop trying to turn *scouts* into something that they should never have been. I mean with this way of thinking, why even have two types of suit per class? Why not just make one medium, one heavy and one light that can all overlap eachother so much as to completely rule out any reason for specialization. Take away these raw HP increasing modules and you get assault -> good at asaulting(slaying) and decent positioning not so good at logi/ewar/area denial logi -> good at providing team support and can be decent at ewar but not so good at slaying, positioning, or area denial sentinel -> great at area denial but not so good at ewar, positioning, logi scout -> great at positioning and ewar, not so goot at slaying and area denial TLDR: every suit needs to be bad at something..... Scouts should be bad at taking a punch. Abolute HP modules fly directly in the face of that. Fixing swarms