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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 25 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1379	Posted - 2014.05.22 06:56:00 - [1] - Quote We want to stick to the dampening removal on cloaks. How, and you only have one stat to change, do we do that while not making Gallente scout the only viable (PC) meta? Go! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1382	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:05:00 - [2] - Quote 1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus 2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1401	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:43:00 - [3] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: shaman oga wrote: Eliminate caldari and gallente scan range bonus. This would alleviate the problem a fair bit. Please elaborate "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1401	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:44:00 - [4] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: They should remove the squad sharing passive scans (as was the idea in the first place) I need to follow up on this internally "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1401	Posted - 2014.05.22 09:46:00 - [5] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: Reduce the dampening bonus on cloaks and make them progress with tier. Something like 10% for standard, 15% for advanced and 20% for proto. This seems like a reasonable suggestion, but maybe still sticking with 0%, 5%, 10% with a zero baseline. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1583	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:15:00 - [6] - Quote We are still open to simple suggestions. Most of what I read here is "do you even PC scout bro" and "you have to completely redesign the whole ewar/scout ethos". We are not going to do that. We already changed the proposal to have a progression in dampening: STD/ADV/PRO 0%/2.5%/5.0%. It seems to me that reducing the dampening bonus of the GA scout, or changing it to duration can level the scouts viability. And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others split the 50%. Cyrius Li Moody, as the most vocal opponent, and the rest of you as well :). Do you want to contribute and propose a simple change to the scouts, which was the purpose of this thread. In this form with fake examples. MM f.ex. run speed % AM f.ex. ehp bonus % CA is fine GA f.ex. reduce dampening bonus % "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1584	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:48:00 - [7] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: The-Errorist wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible. To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks. Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout. The first thing that could be changed is the gal scouts range bonus. Why do they have it? It really doesn't correlate to the role of damping. If CCP could translate this damp bonus to your squad mates in the radius it would have a purpose, but I don't think thats something CCP can implement. This would provide a pretty good counter to the caldari. Read post #86 You only need 1 damp to hide from non-precision mod using Cal scouts and normal prototype scanners that aren't being used by the Gal logi, which also has a role bonus towards scanning (passive vs active), and 2 if it is being used by a Gal logi. If you want to be able to hide from a Gal logi using a prototype focused active scanner or a cal scout using 2 precison mods with only 2 damps on a scout that does not have a bonus towards dampening, you're just asking for too much. I also support removing shared passive scan. I would support having waves of opportunity from from cloak modules only if standard cloaks started off with a 0% dampening bonus and a higher percentage for adv and pro cloaks like Rattati suggested. This would alleviate the brick tanking scout w/ super low profile problem and still allow people to get a waves of dampening opportunity by using higher tier cloaks. Not every scout needs to be perfect hiders like the Gallente, they each should have their own roles other than dampening. Again with people not understanding the game mechanics. No scout can avoid cal scans with 2 complex precision enhancers without at least 2 damps, PERIOD. UNLESS they use a cloak. Which then gives them a wave of opportunity to hide without completely compromising their fit for it. Current numbers (rounded up because thats how game mechanics work): Cal w/ 2cPE: 18dB Gal w/ 1cPD: 18dB (scanned) ---------> Activate cloak (not scanned) Cal/Amarr/Minnie w/ 2cPD: 18dB (scanned) ------------> Activate cloak (not scanned) Any Cal scout running 2cPE is a squishy target ~300 shields. EVEN more so if they are running range amps (<400hp). They currently can't hide from other cal scout scans either. So cals have three counters. Another cal scout, OR a gal scout or proto logi scanner. Lastly, a scanned scout is a dead scout. As soon as I am getting scanned frequently I switch roles to a heavy or Gal scout. The current scanning system is the most elegantly balanced system we have in the game and it works in its current form. You have counters and counters of counters and final counters and waves of opportunity. No other system in the game give you this sort of balance. Since it is so elegantly balanced, why are gallente scouts predominant [no troll]. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1586	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:27:00 - [8] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You can barely fit an adv cloak at proto level as it is with two damps. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. Yep So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1588	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:43:00 - [9] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You can barely fit an adv cloak at proto level as it is with two damps. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. Yep So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium? These changes allow minmatar to do what they do best, knife, speed tank, hack without them being able to go so overboard that they become a new problem. They must have a role in the current equilibrium right? Without any changes. PC is almost exclusively GA and CA scouts. How does that compute? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1588	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:58:00 - [10] - Quote Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening beats the highest possible by GA logis "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1589	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:12:00 - [11] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk FFS, no. do not make a bonus of any scout effect cloaks other than the racial one of fitting reduction Do you really think this sort of debate impresses anyone? Tsk, tsk. So reducing/removing the GA dampening bonus is a viable way. Good to know. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1589	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:14:00 - [12] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit The highest possible dampening fit should take a metric **** ton of fitting to get under a gal logi focused and the focused needs to be the end all be all of scanning because it's active and involves other factors, not passive 360 stupid scans. All you REALLY need to do is put a bandaid on this until you can revisit the entire e-war situation. The way to do that is by keeping min scouts unscannable by making the proto cloak have 10% damp until later when you can COMPLETELY rid the cloak of a module bonus. Appia ran the math and it works. Then you don't need to rid the gal scout of it's bonus, maybe just kill it's range bonus in addition to killing the cal range bonus. Sounds reasonable enough. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1600	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:53:00 - [13] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: The Amarr Assault is down a slot The Caldari and Gallente Assaults have bonuses that are ill-fitting and limiting to just racial weapons The Minmatar Assault still has the odd layout and is still CPU/PG starved. And there is too much overlap between the role of an Assault and the role of Commando. The Base HP between Light and Medium is not that great after multiple HP modules are added to both suits simultaneously in equal numbers. The Gallente Scout is overly attractive because it has the highest base repair rate, much like the Logi was the most desirable frame before because it has a repair rate of 5hp/s. 1hp/s gives it flavor. 3hp/sec gives it utility. Why, oh why, would people flock to scouts when Assault suits look so desirable. You pointed out that Cirius Li-Moody was vocal about the changes. And for some reason you think an inconsequential 2 and 5% bonus on cloaks is a compromise. Now you come around and say, "Gallente looks OP. They should be nerfed as well" We always knew it was OP, mentioned in several threads. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1615	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:26:00 - [14] - Quote Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. Here is the premise 1) I want to encourage stealth players to go to proto cloak 2) GA scout will be the only scout that is completely unscannable 3) Not let GA scouts be the only stealth scouts and use cloaks So, I have been told, I can verify when I am back at work, that if we change the cloak to be at 10% dampening instead of 5% at PRO, at least 3 stealth scouts are viable with cloak, GA, CA and MM. I think that's fine, I don't think everyone should be equally good at everthing. Amarr will get a look soon. Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terrible close to 16. Since I want the only thing to beat the 100% dedicated scout scanner to be a 100% dedicated stealth scout. A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. That means we can reduce the GA Scout bonus to 15% to 25% and still stay under the CA scout at 15.3 or 16dB. Thereby forcing the dedicate GA scout to sacrifice a low in most cases, so that he can't spend it on armor. For the coup de grace, we can reduce the range of the CA passive scan a little bit because it's unnecessarily good. Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1618	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:30:00 - [15] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: --snip-- Hi, your proposals sounds fine, but you have to understand two slots isn't much for a suit that gets two free low slot modules worth of bonuses/innate suit properties. This "sacrafice" is what the other scouts already have to do with their low slots. I am fine if we reduce the two free slots to one, at least to begin with. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1618	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:37:00 - [16] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Rattati read my post above yours. Basically states answers to your current changes. Why should a scout sacrifice their ENTIRE fitting just to remain hidden from a single piece if equipment. To not have his cake and eat it too. The CA scout decided to specialize and sacrifice their whole fit to find scouts. The GA scout decided to specialize and sacrifice their whole fit to escape all scanning. Not to mention, it is not his entire fitting, there is a high and a low slot available if I am not mistaken. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1619	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:52:00 - [17] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I am fine if we reduce the two free slots to one, at least to begin with. So removing the innate 3 hp/s? or reducing it. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1619	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:15:00 - [18] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. CCP Rattati - snip Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. I dunno if it's just cause it's late here but I think there's a slight bit of tension in the statements. -snip- I am sorry, I honestly can not understand what you are trying to say. On that note but not towards you specifically, I would frankly prefer that all emotion would just be removed as much as possible out of the feedback threads and just have a logical conversation. Otherwise this won't work as intended. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1619	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:17:00 - [19] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. Here is the premise 1) I want to encourage stealth players to go to proto cloak 2) GA scout will be the only scout that is completely unscannable 3) Not let GA scouts be the only stealth scouts and use cloaks So, I have been told, I can verify when I am back at work, that if we change the cloak to be at 10% dampening instead of 5% at PRO, at least 3 stealth scouts are viable with cloak, GA, CA and MM. I think that's fine, I don't think everyone should be equally good at everthing. Amarr will get a look soon. Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terribly close to 16. Since I want the only thing to beat the 100% dedicated scout scanner to be a 100% dedicated stealth scout. A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. That means we can reduce the GA Scout bonus to 15% from 25% and still stay under the CA scout at 15.3 or 16dB. Thereby forcing the dedicate GA scout to sacrifice a low in most cases, so that he can't spend it on armor. For the coup de grace, we can reduce the range of the CA passive scan a little bit because it's unnecessarily good. Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. I dunno if it's just cause it's late here but I think there's a slight bit of tension in the statements. Namely, according to the math i was given, cause i'm lazy, Cal quad precision is like 14.91 I think, sadly it's equal to the active gal logi focused, which it shouldn't be. But that's not the part in tension that's just a potential flaw on someones maths. The tension is between the statements of wanting only the gal to be able to beat min maxed scans and the 10% proto damp buff. I suggested the 10% to proto as a bandaid until you could fix e-war because it allows min and amarr to get under all scans. See the tension? I'm tired if there's not any and apologize. Make sure to remove it from the gal as well, they both get the range buff. Holy mother of god I love you and logic has been dropped on this thread. Did you factor in stacking penalty on the CA precision quad stack? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1622	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:29:00 - [20] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. CCP Rattati - snip Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. I dunno if it's just cause it's late here but I think there's a slight bit of tension in the statements. -snip- I am sorry, I honestly can not understand what you are trying to say. On that note but not towards you specifically, I would frankly prefer that all emotion would just be removed as much as possible out of the feedback threads and just have a logical conversation. Otherwise this won't work as intended. No no I have emotion, but all positive and giddy. rofl. And i'm often terrible at explaining things so let me try this again. What i am saying by the statements seem to have tension is that your premise says: "I want to make gal the only one truly unscannable." the problem is the move from 5% to 10% conflicts with this premise in that it allows min and amarr min/maxing to get under all scans as well. Which is what i advocate for until you can properly revisit e-war in a more comprehensive manner. ok, I should have worded the first premise "at least one scout is unscannable", not "just one" "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1624	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:39:00 - [21] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Um its called nerf focus scanner by 5 sb or buff cal db If I sacrifice all my lows for pro damps on a SCOUT, I should never be scanned, otherwise I want my respec for the unbalanced gal scout. The whole point of scouts is to avoid scanning Yet only gallente can do it which is unbalanced. Oh golly, listen brosef. I disagree a cal scout should be unscannable when it only has 2 low slots. I just do. For the reasons stated. Currently all 4 can get under all scans if i'm correct. and after this patch you will be able to continue getting under focused scans if you sacrifice. There are people who abuse the cal scout If a scout has all lows filled you should be unscanable It's the whole damm point of the role. I am not sure I agree that the singular purpose of all scouts is to be unscannable. There is no need to keep arguing about that here. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1627	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:51:00 - [22] - Quote To recap and please don't derail this Cloak Dampening 0-5-10 STD-ADV-PRO MM, AM, GA are unscannable if PRO cloaked with additional dampeners. what does the GA scout dampening bonus of 25% need to be reduced by so GA scouts still have an advantage as the best stealth suit, without being OP? Take into account that the 3 hp/s is also making it very OP and that may be reduced and/or eliminated as well. Please only answer that question for the time being. Thanks "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1696	Posted - 2014.05.24 16:21:00 - [23] - Quote Yes I think we are done here. Thanks for the awesome feedback, I hope we can all be happy with this discussion and how it sets the bar for future dev-community interaction. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1732	Posted - 2014.05.25 00:40:00 - [24] - Quote In summary Overall we generally agree that 1)GA scout could fit too much because of his native dampening 2)GA scout also got a free repair module on top of that 3)GA passive scan bonus doesnt necessarily make sense for role 4)CA scouts passive scan (fondly known as wallhacking) a tad too much 5)Cloak gameplay with dampening is a key factor in fun ewar 6)The need to specialize is enforced in a big way with power graduation 7)To not force equipment selection by having built in scout bonuses for the cloak specifically (such as duration for GA) Cloak keeps dampening, and at better rates than we originally proposed, 0-5-10 instead of 0-2.5-5 GA scout damp bonus to 3% per level instead of 5% for a maximum bonus of 15% Reducing CA passive scan to 3% for 5% Reducing GA passive scan to 1% from 5% (I would think this gets changed to something more fitting later) Reducing GA regen to 1/hp from 3/hp *Duration changes stay the same as original proposal with the same recharge ratio as the old cloak Updated Hotfix Alpha Numbers No changes to shared group scans No changes to Gallogi FS, it is a very narrow scan with a limited steatlh counter by another role than CA scouts. I want to see how that plays out. No changes so bonuses affect modules fitted (a much bigger change) I have updated the google docs accordingly "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1897	Posted - 2014.05.28 04:03:00 - [25] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: A kink in the plans? Don't know about you guys, but I had assumed Spin Scanning was fixed. A GalLogi scanning 300 degrees every so often might make for problem. I'm not saying that we should change anything. Only pointing out a potential issue. I have asked an engineer to take a look, I will keep you posted. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"