DUST Search - [Feedback] Gallente scouts

The-Errorist wrote:

Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:

A scanned scout is a dead scout. If every scout can be scanned there is no point in running scout because it has no role.

That is really not true; scouts aren't as squishy as they were before 1.8 and non Gallente and Amarr scouts have usefull scouty roles such as hacking, scan precision, knife damage, and scan radius.

RedPencil wrote:

Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote:

yeah there is nothing wrong with 2 of the scouts and the other 2 are garbage you dont raise the 2 garbage ones by turning the other 2 into garbage. especially now that clocks will not be giving a damping bonus, thats going to make the proto gal scout users super fukin op

True, Amarr scout is a joke but not Min cout. I'm not sure if you ever run Min or Amarr scout. Min need 2 damp to stay under pro to Active scan but still see by Cal, with their 2(3 at pro to) low slots limit them to chose to be low profile or a speed hack. I think the idea that you have to choose wisely how to fit is a basic balance.
Try to give an proper explanation not to limit down Gal and Cal scout please.

IgniteableAura wrote:

First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible.

To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks.

Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout.

The first thing that could be changed is the gal scouts range bonus. Why do they have it? It really doesn't correlate to the role of damping. If CCP could translate this damp bonus to your squad mates in the radius it would have a purpose, but I don't think thats something CCP can implement. This would provide a pretty good counter to the caldari.

Read post #86
You only need 1 damp to hide from non-precision mod using Cal scouts and normal prototype scanners that aren't being used by the Gal logi, which also has a role bonus towards scanning (passive vs active), and 2 if it is being used by a Gal logi. If you want to be able to hide from a Gal logi using a prototype focused active scanner or a cal scout using 2 precison mods with only 2 damps on a scout that does not have a bonus towards dampening, you're just asking for too much.

I also support removing shared passive scan. I would support having waves of opportunity from from cloak modules only if standard cloaks started off with a 0% dampening bonus and a higher percentage for adv and pro cloaks like Rattati suggested. This would alleviate the brick tanking scout w/ super low profile problem and still allow people to get a waves of dampening opportunity by using higher tier cloaks. Not every scout needs to be perfect hiders like the Gallente, they each should have their own roles other than dampening.

There was another point brought up about how the Gal logi's bonus shouldn't overlap with Cal scout's bonus. The thing is, there are two types of scanning and they get a bonus to one and each has their own pros and cons.

Passive scanning
Always on with no cooldown
Targets stay scanned as long as they stay in your scan radius
360 degree scans
Short range
Doesn't inform enemies of the scan attempt
Doesn't take up an equipment slot
No PG/CPU cost
Can still move/interact normally

Active scanning
There's cooldown
Targets stay scanned for at least 10s after
low degree scans
Longer range
Inform enemies of the scan attempt and whether or not it was successful
Take up an equipment slot
Costs PG/CPU to fit
Can't do anything else besides walk while scanning


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 25 post(s)
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 639	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:22:00 - [1] - Quote m621 zma wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: A medium suit with 2 complex damps has just over 26dB scan profile, not the 12.5 you claim (-10% from skills and 2x-25% from damps does not even equal -60%, let alone -75% that you claim, its around -43% after you account for stacking penalties You do know he's talking about 1.7 not 1.8? Do you know the difference between Theory and Practice? If so, it helps to get your Theory correct in the first place. In 1.7 you received 25% dampening for Lvl 5 Profile dampening http://dust514.wikia.com/wiki/Skill:Profile_Dampening And whilst your math (apart from that) 'may' be correct? In practice, when you were actually playing the game (not just whacking off over some spreadsheets) it didn't work like that. in 1.7 2 complex dampeners on a medium suit beat ALL active scanners. All but the focused. I also ran 2 complex dampeners on a subset of my suits and never got scanned in a Pub match. Only pulled them out if a Proto scanner came out. The focused just wasn't used in Pub matches in 1.7. YouTube
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 641	Posted - 2014.05.22 22:11:00 - [2] - Quote So far, the biggest real fear I see from scouts losing the Cloak Dampening bonus is due to the range and precision of the Cal Scout. I don't count anyone talking about the Gal Logi because it's a none factor now. Complain if they unnerf scanners. That fear of the Cal Scout is real because the suit is already OP vs cloaked scouts, or at least a true balance. I know because I run it, and I run it because it's the ONLY scout counter. It's funny watching scouts stand still thinking I can't see them when they have a big red arrow over their head. Removing the dampening bonus is a good thing, but it's true that it will only make the Cal scout better. I'll probably be able to drop 1, maybe 2 enhancers and add some shields! My suggestion. Remove the Passive Shared Scan. If you want to share recon data with your squad, get an Active Scanner and paint the dots you see. This should calm all the fear each of you scouts have about losing the extra free complex non-stacking-penalty dampener you've been enjoying. Remove the Range bonus from Cal and Gal and give it to Amarr. Amarr needs a better bonus, and range makes since for them. On a personal note, the main reason I want to see this Dampener remove is one reason and one reason only. Firing SG while cloaked. A medium frame cannot passively scan a lvl 5 cloaked scout currently, no matter what the skill or how many precision enhancers. Firing a OHK weapon from cloak gives you no time to react. If they had to decloak before firing, even if it was only a .5 second delay, I would have time to react and I would see them because a Medium farme with full skills CAN passively scan an uncloaked lvl 5 scout. I got killed one to many times while hacking an objective in my MinLogi suit that is meant for hacking before I switched to full on Cal Scout for the sole purpose of hunting and killing cloaked scouts. It's sad when I have 5 suits at proto, consider myself a Logi first, but run Cal Scout 99% of the time to counter this ****. I feel for you scouts that I see running by me that get waisted in a few SCR shots, but blame your Cloaked SG Scouts for making me the monster I am. YouTube
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 641	Posted - 2014.05.22 22:36:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: the problem with this thought is that after this change everyone should just run gal scout, why run a hack fit min scout when you'll get picked up before you CAN hack? why run a cal when the gal will scan for the same range with a bit less precision but who cares the cal scout will get detected where the gal is invisible and wouldn't pick up the gal scouts everyone swapped to anyway to counter the cal. This is the logical step. The only way you're getting picked up though is if someone is using a precision stacked Calscout. I find it interesting how that's apparently a given in all of these theoretical scenarios. It may be theoritacal, but if I'm in the game it's inevitable, and every day there are more and more of me as players realize how nice it is once every few games to say "whoh, that scout got under my passive." I don't really like running the Cal Scout. I have to run it because I don't do FOTM, I counter it. YouTube
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 649	Posted - 2014.05.23 17:14:00 - [4] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: A scanned scout is a dead scout. If every scout can be scanned there is no point in running scout because it has no role. That is really not true; scouts aren't as squishy as they were before 1.8 and non Gallente and Amarr scouts have usefull scouty roles such as hacking, scan precision, knife damage, and scan radius. RedPencil wrote: Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: yeah there is nothing wrong with 2 of the scouts and the other 2 are garbage you dont raise the 2 garbage ones by turning the other 2 into garbage. especially now that clocks will not be giving a damping bonus, thats going to make the proto gal scout users super fukin op True, Amarr scout is a joke but not Min cout. I'm not sure if you ever run Min or Amarr scout. Min need 2 damp to stay under pro to Active scan but still see by Cal, with their 2(3 at pro to) low slots limit them to chose to be low profile or a speed hack. I think the idea that you have to choose wisely how to fit is a basic balance. Try to give an proper explanation not to limit down Gal and Cal scout please. IgniteableAura wrote: First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible. To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks. Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout. The first thing that could be changed is the gal scouts range bonus. Why do they have it? It really doesn't correlate to the role of damping. If CCP could translate this damp bonus to your squad mates in the radius it would have a purpose, but I don't think thats something CCP can implement. This would provide a pretty good counter to the caldari. Read post #86 You only need 1 damp to hide from non-precision mod using Cal scouts and normal prototype scanners that aren't being used by the Gal logi, which also has a role bonus towards scanning (passive vs active), and 2 if it is being used by a Gal logi. If you want to be able to hide from a Gal logi using a prototype focused active scanner or a cal scout using 2 precison mods with only 2 damps on a scout that does not have a bonus towards dampening, you're just asking for too much. I also support removing shared passive scan. I would support having waves of opportunity from from cloak modules only if standard cloaks started off with a 0% dampening bonus and a higher percentage for adv and pro cloaks like Rattati suggested. This would alleviate the brick tanking scout w/ super low profile problem and still allow people to get a waves of dampening opportunity by using higher tier cloaks. Not every scout needs to be perfect hiders like the Gallente, they each should have their own roles other than dampening. There was another point brought up about how the Gal logi's bonus shouldn't overlap with Cal scout's bonus. The thing is, there are two types of scanning and they get a bonus to one and each has their own pros and cons. Passive scanning Always on with no cooldown Targets stay scanned as long as they stay in your scan radius 360 degree scans Short range Doesn't inform enemies of the scan attempt Doesn't take up an equipment slot No PG/CPU cost Can still move/interact normally Active scanning There's cooldown Targets stay scanned for at least 10s after low degree scans Longer range Inform enemies of the scan attempt and whether or not it was successful Take up an equipment slot Costs PG/CPU to fit Can't do anything else besides walk while scanning Where are the "PROs" of active scanners again? I see distance, that's not plural. YouTube