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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 25 post(s) |
Starfire Revo
Inner.Hell
268
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Posted - 2014.05.22 12:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Please elaborate
The ability for scouts to passively scan wide areas for their squad means that they're essentially a walking, permanent wall hack for 5 other people. After the cloak change, the Gal scout will be able to see everything above 23.79db within 75m while being undetected himself (if he builds for it). The Cal scout will see everything above 14.91 for the same radius, which creates a barrier that most scouts can't enter unless they get torn to shreds by the 5 other people.
If you want Cal scouts to remain as the hunters of other scouts, then they should have to hunt down enemies themselves. So aside from removing the shared passive vision, I'd suggest the following changes (based loosely on Jebus' suggestions).
Cal scout: short range precision scout hunter
25% precision
25% reduction to nova knife charge time (nova knives are a cal weapon)
Gal scout: ghost
25% dampening
25% cloak regen
Min scout: hack and run
25% hacking speed (Min scouts get a higher base stat for this anyway, no need to buff it more)
25% bonus to biotics (with their high base melee damage and speed, this opens up a lot of options)
Ama scout: squad scan support, scans most suits except scouts
25% bonus to ferroscale and reactive plates (I've heard changing movement penalties is hard to make work, so this makes more sense)
25% scan range (gives Amarr their own E-war role and makes sense considering their weapon choices hit out to similar ranges)
Also, I'd like to note that while balancing around PC makes some sense considering it's the only full team vs full team mode right now, it has the issues of a limited map pool and limited playerbase. If they're serious about balance changes, I'd rather see full team FW enabled and have them take those figures into consideration too. FW is open to far more people and uses maps outside just the limited large socket selection.
I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb
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Starfire Revo
Inner.Hell
273
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Master Smurf wrote:Loving all of this but Amarr has 4 lows so your range bonus would give them the same issue we want to eliminate - maybe make that a bonus to range extenders - my 2cents
They don't get a damp bonus and only have 2 high slots. If you take out passive squad vision, then you can't be undetectable with high hp and range. A scout suit with a long range is a powerful thing, but suits being powerful are fine so long as they're kept in check.
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Can we change the biotic bonus a bit?
0.7m/s extra sprint speed is similar to what a third kin cat gives you, so it's close to having an extra module for free. Also with the Min scout's 130 base melee damage, it does 237->397->550 with +10% mods. Min scouts are crazy fast already, giving them even more speed for free seems like it could lead to balance issues.
I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb
I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
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Starfire Revo
Inner.Hell
273
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:@ Scouts
Gal will remain PC viable, though they'll likely become less common.
Cal will remain PC viable, due primarily to shared squad sight.
Why aren't we discussing how to make the other Scouts PC viable?
Why are we discussing additional nerfs?
Because there's more to this than just simply buffing the 2 underused Scout suits. If there's problems with underlying game mechanics that are causing balance issues, then those should be looked into.
Do we really want Cal scouts to be viable in PC only because of their shared squad vision? Does that lead to interesting gameplay for everyone involved? Are Gal scouts viable because they're the only ones who can be immune to Cal scouts without a huge amount of sacrifice? Do we really want to balance the game around bringing a scout purely for the squad vision benefits?
As someone who plays multiple different scout roles and both heavy roles, I'd rather see scouts be more active on the battlefield. I don't want my primary role to involve sitting in a corner while my squad does all the work. If they have to remove squad vision and give us other stuff to do instead, I'd be fine with that.
I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb
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Starfire Revo
Inner.Hell
275
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Posted - 2014.05.22 17:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:1) Nova Knife charge time bonus isn't useful. The NK damage bonus is useful, and it is the only the reason why mercs skilled into the Minmatar Scout. I understand Knives are Caldari by design, but we should really try our best to stop sh!tting on Minmatar Scouts.
Do you really want the Min scout's role to revolve entirely around the use of another race's weapon? The other changes I proposed would give them more breathing room when up against other scouts and biotics gives them options to build on their strengths (speed and melee damage).
Quote:2) eWar-focused Recon Scouts are highly specialized and fairly tough to keep alive. The Recon Scout's maximum passives are well within range of hostile CRs and RRs; at ~250HP getting spotted means getting insta-gibbed. Recon Scouts pickup and expose one another; no one dampens when trying to optimize scan range. The Recon Scout is too squishy to takedown targets from range and is too squishy to survive protracted CQC engagements (i.e. Sentinel assassination). The only point to running a Recon Scout is to try to benefit one's squadmates; remove shared squad sight and there will be no point to this specialist.
The question is, do pure recon scouts benefit the strategy of how the game gets played? The Cal scout's ability to nullify other scouts by simply existing is causing balance issues.
I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb
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Starfire Revo
Inner.Hell
275
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Posted - 2014.05.22 18:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:1) What I really want is irrelevant. If this is your angle, it makes more sense to recast Nova Knives as Minmatar technology. The biotic bonuses you've proposed would no doubt be well received; but they are knifers by training and tactics, let them keep their knives. Don't take my word for it; Mr Musturd and Cyrius Li-Moody are both Minmatar Scouts are are both your in your corp.
2) Recon Scouts are not causing balance issues. They are easily countered. They are easily killed. And once the dampening bonus is removed from cloak, GalLogi's will pick up them up with near minimal effort. As for "Benefit the strategy of how the game gets played?" I have no idea what that means.
Biotic bonuses make the knife bonus somewhat irrelevant as Min scouts get increased based melee damage anyway. Having bonuses to 2 different melee styles on a single suit is a bit pointless, especially when one of those bonuses is to another race's weapon. There's a debate to be had about which role the Min scout could benefit from more, I'm just going with the racial style ones.
Even with the cloak change, a single complex damp will still get you under gal/amarr scouts and 1c+1e will get you under everything else except gal logi focused scanners and cal scouts. You sacrifice range, but you're still spotting people for your squad in that situation. I'll rephrase my question that I asked: Does this make for interesting and engaging gameplay? Does squad view add more strategy to the game than it removes? Does it positively or negatively impact the game's balance?
I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb
I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
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Starfire Revo
Inner.Hell
276
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Posted - 2014.05.22 19:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:The only way they'll make dampening less important is if they nerf the hell out of the tacnet. Meaning no more chevron wallhacks. No more showing what direction you're facing.
Getting scanned is the worst thing that can happen to you. Good players know how to use and abuse the tacnet system because it is OP as hell.
What would your thoughts be on these changes if they removed passive shared squad vision?
I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb
I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
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Starfire Revo
Inner.Hell
276
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Posted - 2014.05.22 19:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
I decided to see what a range bonus Amarr would play like, so I tried out a range+LR build on an advanced Gal scout with no damps. Worked out pretty well. I was able to detect people as they came into my optimal range and used my mobility to stay out of their's. I could see myself running this with some form of scanner (or a squad mate with a scanner) and winning longer ranged engagements.
Would be interested to see how it would play for real.
I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb
I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
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Starfire Revo
Inner.Hell
281
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Posted - 2014.05.23 14:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Out of curiosity, I've been playing around with changing the gal/cal bonuses to a +25% bonus to modules. I'm not saying this is the correct path for CCP to go down, but thought it was interesting.
Gal Dampening
31.5 - 0 mods
21.656 - 1 complex
15.768 - 2 complex
12.959 - 3 complex
On it's own, this changes the Gal Scout so that it can no longer be immune to itself without damps. Going 4x armour mods is far less viable using this model and in order to beat the Cal numbers below, gal scouts would need 2 complex damps. They would also need 3 damps (or 2 damps and a 10% bonused cloak) to beat a focused scanner and current day Cal numbers.
Cal Precision
36 - 0 mods
27 - 1 complex
21.13 - 2 complex
18 - 3 complex
16.747 - 4 complex
This makes the Cal weaker against regular scouts and the fourth mod doesn't really do anything. It has a 2 precision beats 1 damp and 3 precision beats 2 damps meta. Also forces the above Gal scout numbers to use 2 damps to avoid Cal scouts.
Again, this is just me adding some numbers to the discussion, not saying it should be changed this way.
I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb
I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
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Starfire Revo
Inner.Hell
284
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Posted - 2014.05.24 01:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others split the 50%.
I'd like to note that the reason the Gal scouts are this popular is because the Cal scout is so strong in combination with squad vision. Unless you nerf the Gal scout into the ground, it will continue to be as popular as it is because it's the only dropsuit that can get under Cal vision while keeping a decent chunk of health. If you don't change Cal and squad vision while nerfing Gal scouts, all other scouts will be replaced by other roles.
The only way I can see making this "balanced" without changing some core gameplay would be to scrap the Gal/Cal bonuses and give them something else entirely. It's possible that you make it work with changing the Gal scout to a module based bonus so that he needs to use 2 mods (or 1 mod with an active cloak) to get under triple unbonused mod Cals. As it stands now though, serious changes need to happen to make not only scouts balanced, but other frames too. Not sure what you'd give Cal instead in this circumstance.
I dunno though, e-war is messy.
I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb
I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
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Starfire Revo
Inner.Hell
284
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Posted - 2014.05.24 01:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium?
Minmatar are great up close assassins. Their high base melee and movement speed would be amazing if they could capitalize on it more. They also bring great utility in the form of their better base hacking speed, which is further improved by their hacking bonus.
I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb
I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
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Starfire Revo
Inner.Hell
284
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Posted - 2014.05.24 01:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Starfire Revo wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium? Minmatar are great up close assassins. Their high base melee and movement speed would be amazing if they could capitalize on it more. They also bring great utility in the form of their better base hacking speed, which is further improved by their hacking bonus. It's so hard for the Min to use these bonuses. If they Melee tank, they lose the ability to have health, which is vital in CQC. Speed tanking costs you your dampening, and it is INSANE on PG costs. 2x Speed costs 30 PG, which is more than 1/3 of our total PG off of two slots.
Hence my earlier suggestion to change knives to Biotics, you could get the melee damage you need while getting an extender and a plate.
This all relies on squad vision being removed or Cal scouts losing their precision bonus though.
I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb
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Starfire Revo
Inner.Hell
284
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Posted - 2014.05.24 02:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:5) Caldari passive scan range reduced
If this isn't a precision change, then only suits with 3x proto damps and a 10% cloak will be viable. I'm curious as to whether other scouts will be viable after these changes.
I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb
I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
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Starfire Revo
Inner.Hell
288
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Posted - 2014.05.24 19:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Yes I think we are done here. Thanks for the awesome feedback, I hope we can all be happy with this discussion and how it sets the bar for future dev-community interaction.
0:46 to 0:49
I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb
I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
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