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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5691
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Posted - 2014.05.22 07:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
Scout's role is low visibility in the decisive use of cloaking devices. The Gallente's specialization in that role, is by having the least likely chance of being scanned.
Removing the profile reduction on cloaks is a decent start if you're trying to encourage a sacrifice being made in defensive/offensive in favor of the ability to go un-scanned but by providing a broad-range nerf (removing profile reduction on cloaks) you're hitting all of the Scouts while the Gallente still remains in it's butter zone to some degree.
As far as a single stat change? Not much you can really do as the only changes you can make are contrary to what your trying to accomplish. Just bear in mind that if you want specialization in order to accomplish both cloaking and a low profile (personally I think it should be one or the other) you're going to have to encourage the other scouts to be effective at their own specializations to the point they're tasty alternatives.
That would mean buffing the other scouts in different areas, as opposed to just one stat. EDIT: Good luck accomplishing that with the Amarr Scout.
ANOTHER EDIT: What I'm trying to say here is that if the Gallente Scout is the only viable option -WITH- the profile reduction on cloaks... It's still going to be afterward, unless you make changes to the other scouts that don't apply to it.
Appia Vibbia wrote:Both would need to change. Gallente Logistics with Active Scanner and Caldari Scout with 4 complex precision enhancers needs to change. Neither should be able to get below 19dB
Wanted to quoted this because I disagree, to an extent. If a Caldari Scout is fitting that many precision enhancers, he's making a severe sacrifice in order to be able to find those targets - thereby, he's a specialist with a high risk/reward playstyle. Active Scanner probably shouldn't be so powerful giving it's broad range without making sacrifices though, so I'll give you that.
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5691
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Posted - 2014.05.22 07:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
Wanted to quoted this because I disagree, to an extent. If a Caldari Scout is fitting that many precision enhancers, he's making a severe sacrifice in order to be able to find those targets - thereby, he's a specialist with a high risk/reward playstyle.
It doesn't matter if you only have 200 shields if you can see every threat within 50-75 meters of you.
I don't see a problem with it. Easily killed and the information only applies to him (no shared TacNet). Deal with the problem if it's a problem 
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5691
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Posted - 2014.05.22 07:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Appia Vibbia wrote:Both would need to change. Gallente Logistics with Active Scanner and Caldari Scout with 4 complex precision enhancers needs to change. Neither should be able to get below 19dB Wanted to quoted this because I disagree, to an extent. If a Caldari Scout is fitting that many precision enhancers, he's making a severe sacrifice in order to be able to find those targets - thereby, he's a specialist with a high risk/reward playstyle. Active Scanner probably shouldn't be so powerful giving it's broad range without making sacrifices though, so I'll give you that. So you're saying Minmatar Scouts should not be able to avoid detection because they can't equally invest the same number of low slots, so they aren't making an equal sacrifice? Because currently that is how the system is working without the cloak. Base values and stacking penalties keep this from being a fair system giving the Caldari scout an advantage that's impossible to overcome.
As it should be, it's the Caldari Scout's specialization. Minmatar Scout isn't meant for bypassing that, it's meant for hacking and blading people in the face. Trying to make everything viable against a specialist who goes out of his way to be able to perform said specialization just devalues it and renders it effectively useless. Why would I want to fit so many precision enhancers knowing that the entire point of fitting them in the first place is arbitrary?
It's one thing if the Active Scanner is doing it because it applies to everyone in squad, but it's completely different if someone dons a tooth necklace and decides to go hunting with a Caldari Scout.
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5691
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 08:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:I don't see a problem with it. Easily killed and the information only applies to him (no shared TacNet). Deal with the problem if it's a problem The information applies to their entire squad and it's all dependent on the situation. In most cases I don't have too much trouble with Caldari scouts on their own since they're generally terrible(musthavwallh4x). The real problem ensues when he has 5 friends in his squad, usually all lol400armor200shieldsand9metersprintGallente scouts.
Video evidence or it didn't happen, just saying - information YOU personally see on your minimap -does not get shared on TacNet- and it is, I'd call foul because it completely circumvents the benefit of the Active Scanner.
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5691
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 08:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:I am confused as to why Aeon Amadi thinks information is not shared through TacNet or why people would not have voice communication.
Teamwork -should- be OP but the information is genuinely not shared through TacNet, and hasn't been since the specifically made changes to TacNet to make Active Scanners more viable. Voice communication shouldn't be a problem because, again, teamwork should be OP. If one guy has to sacrifice all of his defensive capability to be a mobile radar for his bros then I don't see it as a problem, maybe communicate with your sniper to put a bullet in his dome?
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5691
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 08:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:Would you like to log in right now, I'll gladly have you sit in a corner facing a wall as I use any of my 4 scouts to passively scan enemies for you to see.
Yeah. Lemme get my video equipment set up. I want to see this.
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5694
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Posted - 2014.05.22 08:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Now that I've been thoroughly convinced.
Re-evaluate the Scouts entirely. There needs to be more distinction between the Caldari Scout's role and the performance of the Active Scanner, it doesn't make sense for the two to have overlap and the entire reason the Active Scanner was nerfed was due to it's extreme power in the 'twirling' aspect.
Active Scanners should be good for Range, Caldari Scouts for Precision. A Caldari Scout should be a good counter to a Gallente Scout but it shouldn't step on the toes of the Gallente Logistics in terms of general use.
Hate to say it Rattati, but they're right; Scouts do need another overhaul. Caldari/Gallente are very powerful, the Minmatar Scout has the potential for it and the Amarr Scout is falling short.
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5695
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Posted - 2014.05.22 08:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Now that I've been thoroughly convinced.
Re-evaluate the Scouts entirely. There needs to be more distinction between the Caldari Scout's role and the performance of the Active Scanner, it doesn't make sense for the two to have overlap and the entire reason the Active Scanner was nerfed was due to it's extreme power in the 'twirling' aspect.
Active Scanners should be good for Range, Caldari Scouts for Precision. A Caldari Scout should be a good counter to a Gallente Scout but it shouldn't step on the toes of the Gallente Logistics in terms of general use.
Hate to say it Rattati, but they're right; Scouts do need another overhaul. Caldari/Gallente are very powerful, the Minmatar Scout has the potential for it and the Amarr Scout is falling short. Best 2 million ISK I ever wasted, right here.
Wouldn't have had to waste it if we were provided accurate information from the start. TacNet is probably a prime example of lack of information to the general player-base. Can't ask someone to provide feedback/balance input on something they're not well informed of.
Suffice to say, I'm a little pissed off that even after two years I still have to learn **** about this game.
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5697
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Posted - 2014.05.22 09:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
shaman oga wrote:Eliminate caldari and gallente scan range bonus.
Why those 2 scouts are so effective?
Because they can permascan you at almost 40 meters, that is the real advantage of these 2 scout suits.
Eliminate the bonus, so they need to fit a range amp, to see so far.
I always run at least 1 complex profile dampener on my gal scout, sometime 2 if i notice that a cal scout can scan me.
I usually don't tank HP, nerf dampening bonus would be the worst choice imo.
Buff active scanners instead.
Disagree. We're actually having a pretty long argument about this in Skype but I personally don't think Active Scanners should be some end-all thing against Scouts.
As I've said. Active Scanners, and by default the Gallente Logi, should be a general purpose squad-level method of information gathering. The Caldari Scout should be used for precision hunting of targets that dip below the range of the Active Scanners to create a Specialist vs Specialist niche in the game. Both are in the same field of play but with unique uses for both.
As far as the Focused Active Scanner, I personally think that it's a problem because it bleeds too much into the Caldari Scout's specialization. At Level 5 a Gallente Logi has an Active Scanner that has 15db precision, which is pretty hard for anything to overcome. I personally just think it's bad whenever a single piece of equipment is comparable a Lvl 5 Caldari Scout with four complex precision enhancers (14.91db)
I'd personally like to see the Caldari Scout's range reduced and there's a few ways to go about that: Remove the range bonus on the Cal/Gal Scout suits, change the base range, change the bonus of range amplifiers, etc. I personally prefer changes to Range Amplifiers because it's kind of stupid that a complex amplifier provides a 45% increase for only 33 CPU and 0 PG.
Precision Enhancers are also kind of cheap on the fitting costs but, like I said, range is the primary issue with the Caldari Scout, imo. Same with (some) Active Scanners. Range or Precision - one or the other. Too much overlap at the moment.
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5697
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 09:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Too many people to respond to.
Anyway, as in my edit I re-evaluated some of my perspectives and while I still think that Active Scanners should focus on Range and Caldari Scouts should focus on precision, there have been some interesting suggestions.
I don't think it's necessary to remove shared passive scan, but I do think that the Caldari Scout does have too much range for it's precision. It's a mobile radar that never goes away, which is a problem. A problem that could be easily tweaked by removing the range bonus on the Caldari Scout, but if you're going to do that you might as well remove it from the Gallente Scout because it contributes nothing to it's specialization of dipping under TacNet.
You could change the base range, but then you'd be singling the Caldari Scout out and giving the Gallente Scout even more range than it does. So, there's that.
EDIT: To elaborate more for CCP Rattati, I think the general concensus is that the Caldari Scout having the capabilities of such a low precision (as low as 15db) accompanied by a high range (50-75m) is completely usurping the use of Active Scanners and by default, Gallente Logistics. By removing the scan range bonus, you reduce the maximum range by 25% and force them to focus more on their precision abilities while not extremely limiting their range capabilities.
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5703
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Posted - 2014.05.22 09:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Too many people to respond to.
Anyway, as in my edit I re-evaluated some of my perspectives and while I still think that Active Scanners should focus on Range and Caldari Scouts should focus on precision, there have been some interesting suggestions.
I don't think it's necessary to remove shared passive scan, but I do think that the Caldari Scout does have too much range for it's precision. It's a mobile radar that never goes away, which is a problem. A problem that could be easily tweaked by removing the range bonus on the Caldari Scout, but if you're going to do that you might as well remove it from the Gallente Scout because it contributes nothing to it's specialization of dipping under TacNet.
You could change the base range, but then you'd be singling the Caldari Scout out and giving the Gallente Scout even more range than it does. So, there's that.
EDIT: To elaborate more for CCP Rattati, I think the general concensus is that the Caldari Scout having the capabilities of such a low precision (as low as 15db) accompanied by a high range (50-75m) is completely usurping the use of Active Scanners and by default, Gallente Logistics. By removing the scan range bonus, you reduce the maximum range by 25% and force them to focus more on their precision abilities while not extremely limiting their range capabilities. Although, the gallente scouts are the range masters ;) 4 low slots you know. Im running 150m scan diameter: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/565/2658
Part of the problem >_>;
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5704
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 09:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Spectral Clone wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Too many people to respond to.
Anyway, as in my edit I re-evaluated some of my perspectives and while I still think that Active Scanners should focus on Range and Caldari Scouts should focus on precision, there have been some interesting suggestions.
I don't think it's necessary to remove shared passive scan, but I do think that the Caldari Scout does have too much range for it's precision. It's a mobile radar that never goes away, which is a problem. A problem that could be easily tweaked by removing the range bonus on the Caldari Scout, but if you're going to do that you might as well remove it from the Gallente Scout because it contributes nothing to it's specialization of dipping under TacNet.
You could change the base range, but then you'd be singling the Caldari Scout out and giving the Gallente Scout even more range than it does. So, there's that.
EDIT: To elaborate more for CCP Rattati, I think the general concensus is that the Caldari Scout having the capabilities of such a low precision (as low as 15db) accompanied by a high range (50-75m) is completely usurping the use of Active Scanners and by default, Gallente Logistics. By removing the scan range bonus, you reduce the maximum range by 25% and force them to focus more on their precision abilities while not extremely limiting their range capabilities. Although, the gallente scouts are the range masters ;) 4 low slots you know. Im running 150m scan diameter: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/565/2658 Part of the problem >_>; No, its a scouting role that spots enemies, but dont kill as effectively as a slayer scout.
I suppose but it being entirely passive at that range is why we're so pissed off at the Caldari Scout stepping on the toes of the Gallente Logistics O.o;
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5704
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 12:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
I suppose but it being entirely passive at that range is why we're so pissed off at the Caldari Scout stepping on the toes of the Gallente Logistics O.o;
I don't think everyone is pissed off at cal scouts stepping on a toes of a class that disappeared once scanning required some skill due to a function that quite a few don't know about. Your arguing a precision v precision meta, but the recent changes have zero to do with that. I think your more shocked with your revelation more so than what is being balanced here. What is changing is the the precision vs dampening meta, which has the potential to throw one of two scouts as thy scout and nullifying the other 3 suits. Going with a high precision and low range for the caldari scout, has us treading into extremely unfamiliar territory in regards to balance as we now open an entirely new front where the drop in range may not justify the amount of precision or where the amount of precision is too higher to be functional for the other scouts to function against. Or is you are just talking about just a flat removal of of that bonus and nothing else, given the present data and the changes, suggesting an effective removal of a ghost slot from the caldari scout will somehow balance scouts is a little hard to comprehend considering that the current changes still favor the gal scout even without the scanning range.
Sure, it might be from the revelation - I won't lie. Although, when you're talking balance, it's a lot easier to balance something when it's role isn't contending with another role. The proposal was off-topic and wasn't meant to balance scouts, it was meant to give some separation between the capabilities of the Caldari Scout and the Gallente Logi. It was an extension of my previous comment in which I agreed with some of the other posters that you can't just change one stat and somehow achieve balance, it needs a more in-depth look.
Right now, the roles bleed into one another too much. You have Logis which are meant to support, with the Gallente Logi specializing in finding stuff using the Active Scanner. Then you have Scouts which are meant to not be found, with the Caldari Scout... specializing in finding stuff using it's passive scanning. To a lesser extent the Gallente Scout performs the same specialization by having a range bonus and more low slots to effectively turn it into a giant mobile radar on-top of being viable in it's own right by having the Scout's role bonus of cloaks -and- an inherent profile reduction.
And this isn't even covering the aspects of the other two scouts which fall short because they don't have such tactical viability in teamplay environments. Hacking is great and all but when you compare it to TacNet, it falls short. If they want the other scouts to be viable, they're going to have re-evaluate what their specialization is within the role.
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5736
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Posted - 2014.05.24 00:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:We are still open to simple suggestions. Most of what I read here is "do you even PC scout bro" and "you have to completely redesign the whole ewar/scout ethos". We are not going to do that.
We already changed the proposal to have a progression in dampening: STD/ADV/PRO 0%/2.5%/5.0%.
It seems to me that reducing the dampening bonus of the GA scout, or changing it to duration can level the scouts viability.
And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others split the 50%.
Cyrius Li Moody, as the most vocal opponent, and the rest of you as well :). Do you want to contribute and propose a simple change to the scouts, which was the purpose of this thread.
In this form with fake examples.
MM f.ex. run speed %
AM f.ex. ehp bonus %
CA is fine
GA f.ex. reduce dampening bonus % I spoke with hans and let him have the numbers to support this. Until you can get around to a proper e-war balancing act, which a few of us have been discussing at length on how to accomplish properly in the least amount of steps, please consider making the damp bonus on the cloak 10% at proto level, which would allow a min max min scout to get under all scans. Alternatively, if you ARE open to making SOME e-war changes I strongly suggest you look at the proposal by gimble and tech about changing the bonuses to gal and cal to be % based bonuses to modules.
Couldn't you accomplish pretty much the same thing by giving Minmatar Scouts an additional low slot?
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5740
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Posted - 2014.05.24 12:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:Zatara Rought wrote:jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:
Um its called nerf focus scanner by 5 sb or buff cal db
If I sacrifice all my lows for pro damps on a SCOUT, I should never be scanned, otherwise I want my respec for the unbalanced gal scout.
The whole point of scouts is to avoid scanning
Yet only gallente can do it which is unbalanced.
Oh golly, listen brosef. I disagree a cal scout should be unscannable when it only has 2 low slots. I just do. For the reasons stated. Currently all 4 can get under all scans if i'm correct. and after this patch you will be able to continue getting under focused scans if you sacrifice. There are people who abuse the cal scout If a scout has all lows filled you should be unscanable It's the whole damm point of the role. I am not sure I agree that the singular purpose of all scouts is to be unscannable. There is no need to keep arguing about that here.
Agree with this. If all scouts are unscannable then their specializations start to bleed into one another. Their role is focused around cloaking devices which is a 100% guarantee that you have the opportunity to at least be able to -reduce- (note that I did not say prevent) visual detection.
Role =/= Specialization. If one scout has the ability to be unscannable, that is their specialization. If they all do, then we're right back to the same problem of trying to figure out what each of these scouts is supposed to do better than the others.
As far as the rest of the thread:
/popcorn
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