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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 25 post(s)
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3088	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:08:00 - [1] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I think it's only a bad idea IF they choose not to pair it with the end of squad vision. Make scanners the only way to relay location to squadmates. While this will bring the caldari down to the ama/min plebs, the issue still stands that its gallente over the rest by leaps and bounds. Also these changes are going to actually increase the amount of slayer fits since ewar is now a non competitive game, more ehp buffing will be taking its place, which is a 180 from what this change is suppose to do. No doubt the gal bonus needs nerfed and most likely the base profile of scouts needs buffed. The bonuses of gal and cal should not be so incredibly strong as to warrant 2 modules worth of difference, max 1. The bonus's need to be 1 module difference, not 2, speaking of the cal and gal scout bonuses at the high end e-war. I suggest that lowering profile and nerfing the bonus's would perform this simply. Perhaps I'm just REALLY tired, but that seems to make sense to me. Here's even more tired thoughts just for fun and to get something you can flame me for: Minmatar scouts should take 2 complex damps to get under all but a cal scout with 3 complex precision or a dude using a regular focused scanner (2 complex 1 enhanced), and require 3 complex to get under a cal scout using 4 complex precision. Gal logi using focused scanners should be able to pick it up for the 5 second duration assuming you are in the radius and range. Amarr should be the same except 4 complex should get you under a gal logi using a focused. Gallente should be the same except require one less damp. Cal should be limited by their 2 low slots and thus would only be immune to all but a regular focused, gal focused, and other cal scouts. No real thoughts on balancing medium's using precisions except a 1 to 1 ratio vs other mediums. I also refrained from commenting on scouts precision outside of cal scout, which is why this may all be flawed. Who knows i'm tired. Night. I absolutely think a dude specced into gal logi for the scan bonus and using a piece of equipment that only lights you up for 5 seconds should be the end all be all at counterplay to dampening. and that it should take an arm and a leg for scouts to get under a 4 precision cal scout, and give you pause when considering if it's worth it to get under a gal logi trying to pick you up with a focused. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3088	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:12:00 - [2] - Quote BLOOD Ruler wrote: AN amarr scout should have no penalty for armor movement and the ability to scan enemies from farther.Also keep the stamina bonus,as an amarr scout I need stamina. nah if you're gonna go that way give the no armor penalty to the gallente and make amar's the damp bonus. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3089	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:36:00 - [3] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: [quote=Zatara Rought] I absolutely think a dude specced into gal logi for the scan bonus and using a piece of equipment that only lights you up for 5 seconds should be the end all be all at counterplay to dampening. and that it should take an arm and a leg for scouts to get under a 4 precision cal scout, and give you pause when considering if it's worth it to get under a gal logi trying to pick you up with a focused. true, but a gall logi, hiding in a corner with 4 scanners=20 seconds of scanning yeah in a limited radius and range, and contributes nothing else. still has cooldown as well. and in the end the amar and gal scout would be able to get under it, at extreme cost. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3091	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:47:00 - [4] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible. To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks. Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout. I think between my post that would rebalance e-war and starfire's post about scout roles being reworked in addition to squad vision being scrapped we can fix the void left by the passive complex damp. But absolutely cloaks giving a passive complex dampener is dumb. Rebalance so the cloak is an equipment only. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3093	Posted - 2014.05.22 22:14:00 - [5] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The-Errorist wrote: With the proposed changes, here's what it would take to prevent being scanned by a someone with Gallente logi Lv5 using prototype scanners and what it would take for Cal scouts to scan at different dB. [Prototype active scanner]: 21 dB Amarr: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Caldari: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Gallente: 1 basic profile dampener Minmatar: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener [Lv5 Cal scout w/ 2 complex precision enhancers]: 17.85 dB Amarr: 2 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener Minmatar: 2 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener [Prototype focused active scanner] 15dB Amarr: 3 complex profile dampeners & 1 enhanced profile dampener Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 enhanced profile dampener Minmatar: Impossible [Lv5 Cal scout w/ 4 complex precision enhancers]: 14.91 dB Amarr: 4 complex profile dampeners Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 enhanced profile dampener Minmatar: Impossible Gal logis and Cal scouts specialize in scanning and low precision which counters dampening Gal scouts specialize in low profiles which counters precision I think is fine; if other scouts that don't get a bonus to dampening were able to hide from those with a role bonus to precision, by only using one low slot dampening module, it would make those with precision bonuses not that competitive. Also the other scouts have other roles too (except for Amarr). I too think its fine, go through with the changes Rattati. Not every scout needs to be perfect hiders like the Gallente, they each have their own roles. the problem with this thought is that after this change everyone should just run gal scout, why run a hack fit min scout when you'll get picked up before you CAN hack? why run a cal when the gal will scan for the same range with a bit less precision but who cares the cal scout will get detected where the gal is invisible and wouldn't pick up the gal scouts everyone swapped to anyway to counter the cal. This is the logical step. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3094	Posted - 2014.05.22 22:28:00 - [6] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: the problem with this thought is that after this change everyone should just run gal scout, why run a hack fit min scout when you'll get picked up before you CAN hack? why run a cal when the gal will scan for the same range with a bit less precision but who cares the cal scout will get detected where the gal is invisible and wouldn't pick up the gal scouts everyone swapped to anyway to counter the cal. This is the logical step. The only way you're getting picked up though is if someone is using a precision stacked Calscout. I find it interesting how that's apparently a given in all of these theoretical scenarios. Welcome to PC. Why risk playing on a suit when you know the enemy will have a cal scout anyway. You can anticipate and adapt, or find yourself being mowed down by heavies stacking kin kats rushing you, seemingly aware of your every move. This isn't a hypothetical. This is current PC meta. Each side brings cal scouts just to keep the enemy team honest and gal scouts do everything. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3096	Posted - 2014.05.23 01:53:00 - [7] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: As long as being undetected is the realm of just the Gallente Scout, it is what the meta is going to push towards. Being electronically unseen is the greatest personal tactical advantage. If there is some Gal Logi with scanner or Cal Scout with low dB precision and they are next to someone they enhance the people around them by giving them a tactical advantage. If there is with a dampened suit with someone next to them that is un-dampened, they lose that tactical advantage because now the other team is putting its attention to where you are. It's a repeat of what happened before. As people accumulate SP and comprehension of the game they become aware of the target number in which they need to get below in order to play the game. nearly all the medium suits started gearing towards 2 complex profile dampeners because that was what you needed to stop the scan-spam. Nothing has changed except the need for Gallente Scout because it's now the only viable option to dampen with. Wallhacks are the norm. Fighting to remove Cloak Field dampening bonus and fighting to keep Active Scanners and Caldari Scouts' Scanning prowess is fine and all, but realize that you are taking away one of few actual tactical aspects of the game. Information on where the enemy is being taken as a right that all players should get to know. These suggestions only push the game into becoming HP/DPS focus because it is a given that you are always detected. It only pushes it further in further towards Scouts and Sentinels, which is already the theme (of a good team). 1.) It's not only in the realm of the Gal scout. It's just stupid easy. 2.) If they take off squad shared vision from passive scans then active scanners occupy a place on the battlefield, without them passive regin surpreme. 3.) In PC, when 2 damps got you below all but focused, people ran it DESPITE being able to be focused scanned. You make an excellent point but for the other side of the argument. They were unscannable by everything except focused, and it was fine. Gal scouts could get under focused, but at great cost. The amarr can do today what the gal could do then, no one does because the cloak bonus and the gal bonus amounts to a gal needing only need 1 enhanced with the broken cloak to get under everything. Everyone agrees we should rework cal scout bonus and make active scanners viable. 5 seconds does not a wallhack make. And if you want to get under the end all be all of scanning (which the ACTIVE scanner gal logi focused should be, NOT cal scout + 4 precision) then spec amarr or gal and sacrifice to do it. Equips giving module bonuses is dumb and should never have been done in the first place. Sadly CCP let the idea take grip that this is OK and so people want to balance with it. So we need to dislodge that idea and let it die. Balance it another way, not through a passive module on a piece of equipment. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3124	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:00:00 - [8] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Completely reworking the scout bonuses would likely incur a respec. Not something I think we need right now (not to mention would ruin the metrics they are likely trying to run with balance). Without respec you step on the toes of all the people who put SP into a role they wanted to play. If cloak provides no damp bonus most scouts who run them won't use them (lets be real honest, cloaks are only fitted for their damp bonus or to abuse the delay problems)....making the role bonus for scouts useless. I can see SOME merit to removing shared passive scans, but that won't change anything in the long run. It will only force those in the cal scout position to better communicate. 1.) If a respec is needed do it. I personally don't think it'll need a respec (see the cal assault and cal logi bonus being changed). 2.) Cloaks being fitted only for damp bonus and and abuse of delay? Perhaps, but people will learn to use the cloak as a cloak not an equipment piece that affords you a complex module in the process. 3.) Getting rid of passive shared vision will absolutely change a ton of things in the long run. Trying to describe an enemy location is vastly different than your team mates seeing a red dot. Completely disagree with this one. The meta evolution from when we didn't have active scanners to shortly after when we did was HUGE. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3161	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:38:00 - [9] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: 5 seconds does not a wallhack make. And if you want to get under the end all be all of scanning (which the ACTIVE scanner gal logi focused should be, NOT cal scout + 4 precision) then spec amarr or gal and sacrifice to do it. Do you even remember 1.7? You had 2-3 people running the modules whenever you saw known scouts in play, 4 complex precision dampeners wasn't a drastic sacrifice, it was impossible to achieve. Weapons were 9-15% stronger with even more damage coming from damage mods. That was never viable to even bother trying to overcome and as soon as it was know someone was using a focused scouts were abandoned. You're just going to reintroduce the scanner spam if there is still one way to overcome dampening. running what modules to do what? Running double damps to get under all but focused? Yes! Was awesome. And when I got focus scanned I didn't cry. Should have taken me more modules as I was a logi. 4 complex precision dampeners? Gonna need to clarify. But yeah, plenty of shotgun scouts ran around in PC matches without a single plate and still did work. Plenty of people ran quad damps when the situation called for it, or they chose to. As soon as focused was used scouts were definitely not abandoned, rofl. Much as i didn't abandon my double damps when i got focused scanned. That's simply untrue. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3161	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:48:00 - [10] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Speaking of scanners. They should set a turn cap because I still see people 360 scanning. I see that k2dert or whatever his name is doing these insanely fast 360 spins when he scans. Kind of ridiculous. Indeed. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3165	Posted - 2014.05.23 06:34:00 - [11] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Yeah, sure, that's the current meta. But how has the meta developed? It's because those Calscouts that can scan everything exist. The Gallente scout is the only counter to that. As a result, the Galscout is the most prevalent non-scanning scout simply because it's the only one that can survive those conditions. If you remove the dampening bonus from the Galscout, what becomes the dominant scout meta in PC? Then the gal will need to run 2 damps to get under the cal scout. Did you not read my proposal? CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3167	Posted - 2014.05.23 07:40:00 - [12] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Inform enemies of the scan attempt and whether or not it was successful Last time I checked I thought they changed it so that active scans no longer give you a margin of error. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3179	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:22:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We are still open to simple suggestions. Most of what I read here is "do you even PC scout bro" and "you have to completely redesign the whole ewar/scout ethos". We are not going to do that. We already changed the proposal to have a progression in dampening: STD/ADV/PRO 0%/2.5%/5.0%. It seems to me that reducing the dampening bonus of the GA scout, or changing it to duration can level the scouts viability. And I want to remind you that scout use is more than 50% Gallente, meaning the others split the 50%. Cyrius Li Moody, as the most vocal opponent, and the rest of you as well :). Do you want to contribute and propose a simple change to the scouts, which was the purpose of this thread. In this form with fake examples. MM f.ex. run speed % AM f.ex. ehp bonus % CA is fine GA f.ex. reduce dampening bonus % I spoke with hans and let him have the numbers to support this. Until you can get around to a proper e-war balancing act, which a few of us have been discussing at length on how to accomplish properly in the least amount of steps, please consider making the damp bonus on the cloak 10% at proto level, which would allow a min max min scout to get under all scans. Alternatively, if you ARE open to making SOME e-war changes I strongly suggest you look at the proposal by gimble and tech about changing the bonuses to gal and cal to be % based bonuses to modules. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3179	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:24:00 - [14] - Quote Spademan wrote: I just want to plead, please, do not chnage the galscout bonus to something that requires the cloak. Perhaps to efficiency of Profile damps? Or, instead of putting down the Gal, bring the others up? (Also, the Assaults need a pass, else it'll stay skewed) PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS (as in change the gal scout bonus to something requiring the cloak) Why? Because the point of balancing this should be that the cloak is viable WITHOUT being unscannable. Which is why Appia and I and others have been working all day on some fantastic ideas we'll be proposing soon about how to do this. I hate the fact the cloak is only useful in conjunction WITH being unscannable. Make them work independently and together. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3180	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:30:00 - [15] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You can barely fit an adv cloak at proto level as it is with two damps. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. Yep So what roles do Minmatar and Amarr have in this perfect scout/ewar/ PC equilibrium? NONONONONONONONONONONONO Giving all scouts EZ mode unscannable is stupid and broken You need to take the middle road and not fanatics who honestly wouldn't complain if all scouts just came unscannable and cloaks remained 90 seconds and all slots are available to use for other things. This is absolutely ludicrous. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3180	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:32:00 - [16] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I think it's only a bad idea IF they choose not to pair it with the end of squad vision. Make scanners the only way to relay location to squadmates. While this will bring the caldari down to the ama/min plebs, the issue still stands that its gallente over the rest by leaps and bounds. Also these changes are going to actually increase the amount of slayer fits since ewar is now a non competitive game, more ehp buffing will be taking its place, which is a 180 from what this change is suppose to do. No doubt the gal bonus needs nerfed and most likely the base profile of scouts needs buffed. The bonuses of gal and cal should not be so incredibly strong as to warrant 2 modules worth of difference, max 1. The bonus's need to be 1 module difference, not 2, speaking of the cal and gal scout bonuses at the high end e-war. I suggest that lowering profile and nerfing the bonus's would perform this simply. Perhaps I'm just REALLY tired, but that seems to make sense to me. Here's even more tired thoughts just for fun and to get something you can flame me for: Minmatar scouts should take 2 complex damps to get under all but a cal scout with 3 complex precision or a dude using a regular focused scanner (2 complex 1 enhanced), and require 3 complex to get under a cal scout using 4 complex precision. Gal logi using focused scanners should be able to pick it up for the 5 second duration assuming you are in the radius and range. Amarr should be the same except 4 complex should get you under a gal logi using a focused. Gallente should be the same except require one less damp. Cal should be limited by their 2 low slots and thus would only be immune to all but a regular focused, gal focused, and other cal scouts. No real thoughts on balancing medium's using precisions except a 1 to 1 ratio vs other mediums. I also refrained from commenting on scouts precision outside of cal scout, which is why this may all be flawed. Who knows i'm tired. Night. I absolutely think a dude specced into gal logi for the scan bonus and using a piece of equipment that only lights you up for 5 seconds should be the end all be all at counterplay to dampening. and that it should take an arm and a leg for scouts to get under a 4 precision cal scout, and give you pause when considering if it's worth it to get under a gal logi trying to pick you up with a focused. This aside from making min scouts unscannable with 3 complex damps is the way to go. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3180	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:37:00 - [17] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: My problem is by changing this one thing you have change so many other things. There's no magic bullet for this. It seems like you're making this far more complicated than it should be because "this is the way it's going to be." I really don't understand this mindset. However-- The most simple way: You'll need to change all scout suits base precisions so that with a max of 2 complex damps (caldari only has 2 lows) and a proto cloak active every scout can get under a gal focus scanner. You'll have to adjust the Gal's bonus for this accordingly so it doesn't get too low when it scales with all it's skills applied. As for the Gal and Cal, move their bonuses to modules but have them at the same effectiveness as they do now so players have to equip them to use the bonuses. Also you'll need to buff the Minmatar's PG because you are not going to fit a proto cloak on that thing. You can barely fit an adv cloak at proto level as it is with two damps. You guys are making this way too hard on yourselves. There are a lot of things you're going to need to rebalance and a lot of numbers to crunch. I definitely feel as if you guys are taking the wrong approach to fix this problem and are going to cause more by taking this route. PLEASE FFS get on comms with me. The idea that the end all be all of being undetected is 2 complex damps is just STUPID easy and makes active scanners a joke, in addition to making all assaults that can't be unscannable AND logi's not worth it in competitive play outside of min for the rep and maybe Amarr AFTER they find a way for the bonus to still apply after death. Because if it's so easy to be completely unscannable everyone will do it and the other roles are obsolete in comparison. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3181	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:50:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: They must have a role in the current equilibrium right? Without any changes. PC is almost exclusively GA and CA scouts. How does that compute? Because cal are used to keep the other team using gal. The problem is cal are used because passive scans are OP vs active scans thus everyone uses cal scout to pick up everyone except anyone that's unscannable. they use gal cause 3 amror reps, more speedy than amarr, and it only takes 1 damp + cloak meaning all the rest can be used. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3181	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:57:00 - [19] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Llast 326 wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: MM 5% per level to Nova Knife Damage and Codebreakers efficacy AM Increase base Stamina/Stamina Regeneration. Add relevant, debatable scout skills CA 3% per level to efficacy of Precision Enhancers GA 3% per level to efficacy of Range Amplifiers Scout -15% CPU/PG per level to cloak. 5% per level to efficacy of Profile Dampeners Change Duvolle Focused Active Scanner to 5 second duration, 15 second cooldown, 24 dB Do you have a Mathpia chart on this You have my interest in thisGÇª but you know my math skillsGÇª yes and no. I'm mostly just throwing ideas out. they're more me being facetious than serious. Which is just the level I want to humor myself. But I do have the number chart for those I REALLY hope this is mostly facetiousness because believing you and moody want to make scout even more OP by making all of them unscannable at 3 damps is so mind blowing I almost had a brain aneurism mixed with an attack of apoplexy. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3181	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:10:00 - [20] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit The highest possible dampening fit should take a metric **** ton of fitting to get under a gal logi focused and the focused needs to be the end all be all of scanning because it's active and involves other factors, not passive 360 stupid scans. All you REALLY need to do is put a bandaid on this until you can revisit the entire e-war situation. The way to do that is by keeping min scouts unscannable by making the proto cloak have 10% damp until later when you can COMPLETELY rid the cloak of a module bonus. Appia ran the math and it works. Then you don't need to rid the gal scout of it's bonus, maybe just kill it's range bonus in addition to killing the cal range bonus. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3181	Posted - 2014.05.24 02:23:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit Down the Road: Quote: LATER you need to give the min a base hack bonus of 1.25 so that while undetected it's still a super fast hacker and isn't outclassed by the gal when it attempts to fill it's role due to the gal being 2 modules worth of difference better when attempting to be undetectable. e-war needs to be balanced around all scouts being feasibly damped to a point like this: it doesn't tell you how to get there, just tells you what the end product need to be: Minmatar scouts should take 2 complex damps to get under all but a cal scout with 3 complex precision or a dude using a regular focused scanner (2 complex 1 enhanced), and require 3 complex to get under a cal scout using 4 complex precision. Gal logi using focused scanners should be able to pick it up for the 5 second duration assuming you are in the radius and range. Amarr should be the same except 4 complex should get you under a gal logi using a focused. Gallente should be the same except require one less damp. Cal should be limited by their 2 low slots and thus would only be immune to all but a regular focused, gal focused, and other cal scouts. No real thoughts on balancing medium's using precisions except a 1 to 1 ratio vs other mediums. I also refrained from commenting on scouts precision outside of cal scout, which is why this may all be flawed. Who knows i'm tired. Night. I absolutely think a dude specced into gal logi for the scan bonus and using a piece of equipment that only lights you up for 5 seconds should be the end all be all at counterplay to dampening. and that it should take an arm and a leg for scouts to get under a 4 precision cal scout, and give you pause when considering if it's worth it to get under a gal logi trying to pick you up with a focused. Only change i haven't put back in here is the idea that appia and i agreed on about min/maxing min being able to use 3 complex damps to get under a gal focused. I just has on the fence about making min not completely unscannable my gal logi focused that way it doesn't get caught in the trap of having to compete with being the best hacker while being undetectable and just let it be the best hacker period while being mostly unscannable in the endgame. thus 3 damps by amarr and 3 damps (but perhaps a basic instead of the complex) by a gal are required to get under the min/maxing of a gal logi focused scanner. If you don't take an arm and a leg to get this massive advantage, then everyone will do it. ALSO, later on if we could have a discussion about how to UNCHAIN the premise that cloaking needs dampening it'd be even better and the idea Appia came up with about cloaking making your direction on chevron disappear when cloaked is absolutely brilliant and worth considering. She just comes off like an idiot when she types I promise, but when she has a conduit who can put up with her unique personality she has a REALLY potent capacity to contribute. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3185	Posted - 2014.05.24 04:28:00 - [22] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit Suggestion: Lvl(5) Scout+ 2 Cmp damps + proto cloak (on) = unscannable Completely disagree and by doing this you make Scouts OP. This negates counterplay and allows them to accomplish 2 much with 2 little. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3185	Posted - 2014.05.24 04:30:00 - [23] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: 24CPU, 14PG, 1 EQ slot vs 215CPU, 19 PG, 1 EQ slot and 4 Low slots. yep. Gallente Logistics are SPECIALIZE, with capitalization even. 1 low cost active modules can only be avoided by 4 low slots costing 33 CPU each and an active equipment slot that takes 87 CPU and 18 PG. Totally comparable. So yeah let's swap to the other side of the pendulum where all scouts are now OP and not just the gal. facepalm CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3185	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:14:00 - [24] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok let me then put this out there, for Hotfix Alpha, not the end of time 1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration 2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes 3) Duration is shortened and has class progression 4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression 5) Caldari passive scan range reduced Later fixes intend to normalize PG/CPU so noone can fit anything he wants. The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit Suggestion: Lvl(5) Scout+ 2 Cmp damps + proto cloak (on) = unscannable Completely disagree and by doing this you make Scouts OP. This negates counterplay and allows them to accomplish 2 much with 2 little. Exceptions: CalScout w/ 4 cmp precision GalLogi w/ focused AS Response: Bullish, Zatara. Build for me a single OP Scout with 2 lows dedicated to Damps. Note that cloak cycles quickly, so this beast of yours will be vulnerable to scan more often than not. Go. see that makes a huge diff. If you balance so a gal scout needs a 2 complex and 1 basic and min/amarr need 3 complex to get under the gal logi focused. THEN it's gonna be way better for all, active scanner will be useful, and we all win. But you NEED to make it an arm and a leg, scouts should give pause to the idea of choosing the diff between being highly unscannable getting below a cal, and ultimately giving a ton of pause before choosing to fit 3 damps to negate the end all be all gal logi 5 second scan. Balancing for the min maxing is a prerequisite, and those exceptions give me hope you understand that. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3186	Posted - 2014.05.24 05:36:00 - [25] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Zatara, if it's that difficult to stay hidden they simply won't do it. They will instead fit plates. It homogenizes the battlefield when things get to difficult to counter. a slot is a slot is a slot, doesn't matter if it takes a complex or a basic. Three slots and a piece of equipment is too much. Dedicating 4 slots and 4x the PG/CPU to beat a single equipment is too much, No it'll force people to sepcialize fits. SO on the extreme end those who have a phobia will choose to fit it so it can't be scanned. Those who want to be be mostly unscannable except to specialist like the quad cal and gal focused can do that and have more fitting space. And those who only want to be minimum or no cloaked will do this. But you need to choose, and not get your cake and eat it as well. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3186	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:04:00 - [26] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. Here is the premise 1) I want to encourage stealth players to go to proto cloak 2) GA scout will be the only scout that is completely unscannable 3) Not let GA scouts be the only stealth scouts and use cloaks So, I have been told, I can verify when I am back at work, that if we change the cloak to be at 10% dampening instead of 5% at PRO, at least 3 stealth scouts are viable with cloak, GA, CA and MM. I think that's fine, I don't think everyone should be equally good at everthing. Amarr will get a look soon. Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terribly close to 16. Since I want the only thing to beat the 100% dedicated scout scanner to be a 100% dedicated stealth scout. A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. That means we can reduce the GA Scout bonus to 15% from 25% and still stay under the CA scout at 15.3 or 16dB. Thereby forcing the dedicate GA scout to sacrifice a low in most cases, so that he can't spend it on armor. For the coup de grace, we can reduce the range of the CA passive scan a little bit because it's unnecessarily good. Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. I dunno if it's just cause it's late here but I think there's a slight bit of tension in the statements. Namely, according to the math i was given, cause i'm lazy, Cal quad precision is like 14.91 I think, sadly it's BETTER than the active gal logi focused, which it shouldn't be. But that's not the part in tension that's just a potential flaw on someones maths. The tension is between the statements of wanting only the gal to be able to beat min maxed scans and the 10% proto damp buff. I suggested the 10% to proto as a bandaid until you could fix e-war because it allows min and amarr to get under all scans. See the tension? I'm tired if there's not any and apologize. Holy mother of god I love you and logic has been dropped on this thread. Make sure to remove it from the gal as well, they both get the range buff. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3186	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:05:00 - [27] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: Sounds reasonable to me. From what I can see the base case for scouts is TACNET invisibility. An unfitted scout cannot see another unfitted scout. So it seems reasonable to give the Gal the edge over the Cal for the same amount of effort. Not to mention the fact that passive scans are shared (which is good for squad play and synergy IMO). I want to see battles where scouts go "Ooh I didn't see him coming I better spawn with more precision. Ah there he is!" followed by the opponent going "Damn! He spotted me. Time for more damps." This guy gets counter play. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3186	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:08:00 - [28] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: But a gal logi only needs to fit a single piece of equipment that costs them very little. Honestly, you won't get any gal scouts attempting to remain hidden. They will just brick tank instead. 4 slots(3 damps and an active pro cloak) to counter a single piece of equipment. It just sounds ridiculous. Seriously, no one will do it If the difference is getting a hack off or clearing those links on the perimeter without alerting anyone, they most definitely will. Those who choose to, will. But it will be a choice, and not an afterthought. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:19:00 - [29] - Quote Rattati here's the scanning table created. It's got flaws as far as what is takes to get below scans because it doesn't factor in the rounding up portion. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvYSJ6FRJlihdHRWMFFxUDVPbzZPVTdjZmNwR2loYXc#gid=0 CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:23:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. CCP Rattati - snip Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. I dunno if it's just cause it's late here but I think there's a slight bit of tension in the statements. -snip- I am sorry, I honestly can not understand what you are trying to say. On that note but not towards you specifically, I would frankly prefer that all emotion would just be removed as much as possible out of the feedback threads and just have a logical conversation. Otherwise this won't work as intended. No no I have emotion, but all positive and giddy. rofl. What i am saying by the statements seem to have tension is that your premise says "I want to make gal the only one truly unscannable" the problem is the move from 5% to 10% conflicts with this premise in that it allows min and amarr min/maxing to get under all scans as well. Which is what i advocate for until you can properly revisit e-war in a more comprehensive manner. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:27:00 - [31] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Sacrificing all your slots for one equipment is ******** and un balanced considering it's 5 seconds and has an enormous cooldown and can only hit a limited range and radius, I disagree. If you want to be immune to a maxed out end all be all scanner from 1 suit in the game...then you will have to sacrifice. Otherwise...put on 2 damps to get under the rest and deal with the 5 second scans from that 1 suit. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:28:00 - [32] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Good Every scout if they fill all lows should be unscanabke It's only balanced to thier role. Except cal. In my estimation they could not be truly unscannable and I love that. They are the master scanners but gave up the ability to be truly unscannable in the process. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:34:00 - [33] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Sacrificing all your slots for one equipment is ****** and un balanced considering it's 5 seconds and has an enormous cooldown and can only hit a limited range and radius, I disagree. If you want to be immune to a maxed out end all be all scanner from 1 suit in the game...then you will have to sacrifice. Otherwise...put on 2 damps to get under the rest and deal with the 5 second scans from that 1 suit. 6 mil sp vs 6 mil sp Broken scanner wins Overpowered They can fill all thier equipment slots and abuse it I only have two slots, both with complex damps, a maxed out scout should be un scan able by everything Wallhax is what makes this game ****** when it's un avoidable. And all three aside from the cal WILL be able to choose to be unscannable, but at a cost my friend. In 1.7 meta the focused was a tiny bit too strong but it was really close to the right place. Just because a scout was picked up for 5 seconds is not the end of the world. And if they don't want 2 be picked up even by that, then they can choose to make a large sacrifice to get under it. And that if they manage to pick you up with the damn things limited range and radius in the first place. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:36:00 - [34] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Um its called nerf focus scanner by 5 sb or buff cal db If I sacrifice all my lows for pro damps on a SCOUT, I should never be scanned, otherwise I want my respec for the unbalanced gal scout. The whole point of scouts is to avoid scanning Yet only gallente can do it which is unbalanced. Oh golly, listen brosef. I disagree a cal scout should be unscannable when it only has 2 low slots. I just do. For the reasons stated. Currently all 4 can get under all scans if i'm correct. and after this patch you will be able to continue getting under focused scans if you sacrifice. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:37:00 - [35] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: ok, I should have worded the first premise "at least one scout is unscannable", not "just one" Yeah yeah. Dunno if my maths is wrong, you can check it all out when you get a sec, but suffice it to say the theory is perfect. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:38:00 - [36] - Quote Which is what we're saying will happen...are you drunk? O_O Aside from cal scout (which sacrificed the ability to be COMPLETELY unscannable) all the rest will be able to avoid every scan. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3187	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:42:00 - [37] - Quote Rattati, if there is one thing I can ask you to add in hotix alpha, could you entertain the idea of giving the min scout a base hack speed of 1.25? (this is not the hack bonus) It currently has a 1.1 according to the sheet released in the devblog back in March. Somehow the min logi in comparison has a 1.2 hack speed base. It really needs to have a 1.25 base hack speed if you could to give it an edge when it's trying to min max stealth, or the gal scout and min scout will compete, I think it's worth giving it a defined role. Just my opinion. Does that make sense? CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3191	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:01:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: To recap and please don't derail this Cloak Dampening 0-5-10 STD-ADV-PRO MM, AM, GA are unscannable if PRO cloaked with additional dampeners. what does the GA scout dampening bonus of 25% need to be reduced by so GA scouts still have an advantage as the best stealth suit, without being OP? Take into account that the 3 hp/s is also making it very OP and that may be reduced and/or eliminated as well. Please only answer that question for the time being. Thanks in the meantime? nothing. MAYBE 5% For the moment until a proper rebalance to e-war occurs I am fine if gal only require 2 damps while the rest take 3 in addition to a reduction to the innate repair. In the future rebalancing so that the cal bonus get you to say...16db with quad (this assumes my assumptions based off that scanning table were correct) and the gal logi focused was say..stayed 15. Then allow the gal to get to 16 db with 2 complex damps, but only 2 complex not 1 complex 1 enhanced. and then allow the gal to require 2 complex and perhaps an enhanced or something...but 3 slots and a ton of pause...in order to get under 14 db and thus beat the focused. the #'s for slots were the ones I care about..the db ** was arbitrary. Maybe nerf the cal bonus as well by a limited amount so that passive end all be all specialists get 16 db and not 15? or would that ** everything up? thoughts? CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3194	Posted - 2014.05.24 07:12:00 - [39] - Quote Thunder just give up. I promise you it's gonna go nowhere that ends up productive my friend. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3196	Posted - 2014.05.24 08:55:00 - [40] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: This is another terrible CCP idea. The removal of the cloak dampening will shift the meta to more gal logis with multiple pro focused scanners, especially in PC. This will force the phasing out of min, cal and amarr scouts since the gal will be the only one to get under focused scanners now. More slayers will go to gal scout or sentinel with hmg and some commandos. Heavies will be everywhere, sitting on armor hives with logi reps forcing more players into heavies especially since assaults suck azz and so will three out of four scout suits. YOu must have missed this. WIth his proposed changes all but the cal scout will be able to choose to be unscannable. The active scanners are NEVER used in PC...meanwhile in 1.7 they WERE used to find everyone dampening except gal scouts with a lot of damps. The focused was a bit 2 OP but was much closer to balance then as opposed to now. Make it a choice and not an afterthought Even as a gal logi who could get under all scans BUT the focused I didn't abandon my damp suit just because someone could scan me for 5 seconds. I could have...but I didn't because being unscannable by all else except 5 seconds was fine for my playstyle. Again, make it a choice. Not an afterthought. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3197	Posted - 2014.05.24 09:27:00 - [41] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: First, an amarr scout with 4 complex damps can not get under a gal logi with pro focused. Amarr scout with 4 complex damps is 14.7 db, pro focused is 15db, which means Amarr scout will be scanned and min and cal have no chance to avoid it. Second, gal logi recieves bonus to duration so it's longer than five seconds. Also players stack multiple scanners on a logi suit so they can scan even longer and multiple directions. Third, since damping an amarr, cal and min scout will be almost pointless and cloak time is being cut in half more scout players will brick tank which means any suit with a pro active scanner will pick these brick tanked scouts up. Scanning will become more prevalent, "you have been scanned" will be burned into all our tvs again and more players will switch to gal scouts or heavies. No it can currently get under with a cloak and 2 damps I think and next build based off his changes with be able to get under with 4 damps and the proposed 10% bonus to proto cloaks. Sure he can spam 4 focused on you, so what? He contributes scans 25 seconds out of the minute? and each scan can miss with the tiny radius? and the 3 scouts can still beat it? Come now man and we can reason together. In 1.7 PC you could scan all except gal with what 4 damps? DId we stop wearing double damped logi's? Nope. Why? 5 seconds. Did I run 4 focused? Nope, still needed to do my logi duty, so i had 1 focused 1 duvolle and maybe one other person on the team used one for HP. I might just run focused if I was a gal logi and let the cal be the passive scans until everyone forms a consensus that active scanning should be the only squad shared scans..but other than that yeah i think i've explained this a little more. Hopefully it all makes sense to you brochacho. o7 CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3198	Posted - 2014.05.24 09:58:00 - [42] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: I still think more players will go gal scout. Caldari can't scan gal scouts and with only two lows they will be limited on dampining. This will fade their usefulness to squad scanner only. Min and amarr scouts will still suck so a lot of theses scouts will cross to gal or heavy. This will further reduce usefulness of cal scout cause they still can't scan gal scouts and gal Scouts with two pre enhancers can scan all heavies and all mediums that don't have three complex damps out two 37 meters. Either way the battlefield will be litered with heavies and their logi pets and gal scouts. Assaults will still suck and amarr, min and cal scouts will have limited usefulness. I disagree, BUT I will say I have a handy thread that advocates making min scout have a 1.25 hack speed innate instead of a 1.1 hack speed which is dumb because it doesn't give it a huge edge when the gal and min are trying to go hardcore dampened ninja hacker. THIS I hope, will. Amarr needs love and will get some. If you could help brainstorm that'd be awesome. Cal scouts already couldn't scan gal scouts with 1 damp and a cloak on. If the changes make it so they need 2 damps GOOD. They'll actually be more useful because it'll keep those pesky gal's on their toes. In the long run perhaps maybe swap the gal logi bonus from duration of scan to radius or cooldown. But absolutely this will help make gal logi focused WORTH USING. Atm they are simply useless. :( CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3198	Posted - 2014.05.24 10:12:00 - [43] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: - Gallente and Amarr being the only dampened options is lame, that gives no dampening ability to shield tankers.. Amarr Scout with 3 complex damps Minmatar Scout with 3 complex damps Both of those should be on par with Gallente with 2 complex damps... the Cal loses out Due to 2 low slots not being enough, and is the passive scanner of scouts - To propose leaving the Minmatar ineffectively dampening, is wrong.. It's an assassin suit focused on melee and we're expected to do that while being scanned ???? Also.. A Full proto Amarr/Minmatar with 3 damps each, both come off with little over 400hp Which is perfectly balanced in terms of HP values of a cloaked scout...... WTF...people still in here when we already established the pmemise of min being able to go full undetectable. -_-;; CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3208	Posted - 2014.05.24 11:30:00 - [44] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Zatara Beating scans isn't "have cake and eat it too" for a 250hp Scout; it is simply survival. A scanned Scout is a dead Scout (unless he's hp tanked). @ Rattati The problem is a 600+ hp Scout beating scans. The proposed nerf-package is overkill. It will not permit stealth units enough free space to perform useful function. No room for Biotics, Scans, Hacks. Suggestion: Lvl(5) Scout + 2 cmp damps + proto cloak (on) = unscannable Exceptions: CalScout w/4 cmp precision; max GalLogi w/duvolle focused Reasoning: Solves the problem without creating new problems. Problem is you're not seeing I agree with you. Min and amarr should be able to get under all scans except your 2 cases without a 3rd damp. all scouts should need that 3rd damp if they want to get under gal focused or quad cal rest of the time i'm fine if they can get under the rest with 2 complex. What you need to understand is that in the long run: Cloaks need to not give module bonuses. Cloaks should be viable and useful even when you are scannable. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3208	Posted - 2014.05.24 11:57:00 - [45] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: If your going to reduce the cal scout passive range bonus can you remove it completely from the gal scout. Why does a scout dedicated to dampening even have a scanning bonus? 100% agree CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3208	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:08:00 - [46] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: If your going to reduce the cal scout passive range bonus can you remove it completely from the gal scout. Why does a scout dedicated to dampening even have a scanning bonus? Nerf after unnecessary nerf. Removing range bonuses will make LS range extenders useless. They aren't worth using without the bonus. Rofl...how do you figure? Please tell me also LS? CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3208	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:25:00 - [47] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: makes sense that a cal scout could have high end precision at close ranges (referring to the cal range amp bonus thingy possibly being reduced) and a gall has low precision over a longer range. but a gall scout with 2 prec enhancers should have issues finding a dual dampened/cloaked cal scout as well. Same goes with the cal scout with 4 prec enhancers, having a problem finding a gal scout with 4 dampening/cloak But the amar/min with 3 prec enhancers, should be able to detect the cal scout, and the cal scout find them as well. If you had to choose between a bonus that makes you uniquely adept at not being scanned by the gal or being adept at scanning longe range as opposed to a shorter more focused precision cal which would you choose? Both is not an answer. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3208	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:27:00 - [48] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Since Gallente scouts are mostly about not being detected, would it be a good idea to remove its scan radius bonus and add a cloak duration bonus, so it has a bonus towards dampening and duration of cloak? To me that makes more sense. Honestly, even right now 60 seconds on the advanced begs you to have campy play. I wanna see 45 seconds at proto in action before they implement something like that. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3210	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:34:00 - [49] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: that's not ignoring me :( cloaks and runs away /me pulls out gal logi focused CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3210	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:37:00 - [50] - Quote all of you quickly! support my thread! <3 Help Min scouts be awesome! https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2177186#post2177186 CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3215	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:59:00 - [51] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Since Gallente scouts are mostly about not being detected, would it be a good idea to remove its scan radius bonus and add a cloak duration bonus, so it has a bonus towards dampening and duration of cloak? To me that makes more sense. Honestly, even right now 60 seconds on the advanced begs you to have campy play. I wanna see 45 seconds at proto in action before they implement something like that. On the hotfix alpha spreadsheet, the proposed cloak duration is 15/30/45 STD-ADV-PRO. If those were the final numbers, would you like what I'm suggesting? Like i said it'll just depend on seeing how campy people end up being with the proposed changes. 1 minute with 30 seconds regen still means you can have a LONG time to camp. I wonder if we could ever play with the idea of how the longer your duration the longer the regen in the sense than it was dynamic. Instead of hey if you have a proto cloak and it's 60 duration 30 sec recharge....instead if you cloak for 20 seconds or less recharge is 10 seconds for that 20. But if you use it for 20-40 secs it has a 30 seconds recharge for that 40 seconds you used and if you use it for more than 40 secs...say 56 seconds...then you have to wait 56 seconds for it to recharge. Just a thought the numbers were arbitrary but you get the idea...incentivize a non campy playstyle for using the cloak. PC is 2 fast for that kind of campy attitude it engenders. Does that make sense? TBH 3 days before he released these number I had been overkilling perhaps and suggesting to Appia and others the idea of proto cloaks only lasting 30 seconds. Because that's the length of your average engagement from scan to close distance to engage to conclusion IMO. Sustained firefights are mostly a thing of the past and passive scans + shared vision making it not worth it to be an assault or commando or logi aside from min for repping unless you're playing a point amongst a bunch of people, preferably heavies. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3215	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:11:00 - [52] - Quote Haerr wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: snip Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terribly close to 16. snip Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. Did you change the bonus to the Caldari Scout? Taking stacking penalty into account makes a Caldari Scout with 4 complex precision enhancers end up close to 14.91 Zatara Rought wrote: snip It's got flaws as far as what is takes to get below scans because it doesn't factor in the rounding up portion. snip Rounding up portion? Please explain. New Table: Link at the bottom of the post. Gallente Scout 15% Profile Dampening bonus (Used to be 25%) Columns are: N = No Cloak Field S = Standard Cloak Field (0% Dampening Bonus, used to be 25%) A = Advanced Cloak Field (5% Dampening Bonus, used to be 25%) P = Prototype Cloak Field (10% Dampening Bonus, used to be 25%) Pale Green = 0 Complex Profile Dampeners Green = 1 Complex Profile Dampeners Cyan = 2 Complex Profile Dampeners Blue = 3 Complex Profile Dampeners Purple = 4 Complex Profile Dampeners Pink = 5 Complex Profile Dampeners Table: LINK HEY! <3 SOmeone asked me a question. SO. On this here scanning table for example it lists 4 complex damps on a non gal scout that is non cloaked under the section for quadprecision cal. Whats the purpose of telling me 4 complex damps? that that 14.73 you have listed rounds up to 15 and thus is scanned by a cal quad and gal focused. make sense? CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3215	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:18:00 - [53] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: If your going to reduce the cal scout passive range bonus can you remove it completely from the gal scout. Why does a scout dedicated to dampening even have a scanning bonus? Nerf after unnecessary nerf. Removing range bonuses will make LS range extenders useless. They aren't worth using without the bonus. Rofl...how do you figure? Please tell me also LS? Low Slot Check the math w/out bonus. Compare to range of any fine rifle. Why nerf the CalScout? It isn't the problem. The cal scout needs a nerf so that the passive end all be all isn't as good as the active end all be all. the gal focused needs to be slightly better because of it's drawbacks IMO. I think you're overstating it when you assert that w/o the bonus it's worthless. rofl you get 30 meters with the passive skill. a 45% bonus to that is skill going to be huge. The range bonus from that skill is far and away better than the 6 or so meters you get from the cal's bonus. and losing it DEFINITELY does not mean the cal can't scan well...30 meters is really good compared to the what...22.5 you get with max skills on a medium? theoretically let's say the bonus range is 7 meters and a proto range was not 45 but 50(!!!!)% increase. you get 3.5 meters more with the cal bonus. Personally i'm fine if the CAL keep it as they will hopefully pick others up before being picked up IF ANYTHING that's what it is...a tiny buff to see scouts if you both were scannable before he does...but the gal def shouldn't have it IMHO. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3219	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:22:00 - [54] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Also, what's your angle Zatara? You're parlaying an isolated OP item (bricked GalScout) into a nerf package for all Scouts. Next, we'll buff Assaults. Then Scouts will be wholly non competitive. Again. Why? Frack your ploys, Zatara. You've crossed my line. Accept my resignation from the corp. - Shotty GoBang (an actual scout) Hmm...skepticism of my motives, eh? If that's the way you perceived my intentions my friend...then I failed...and you weren't paying attention. I see no evidence of a ploy...merely rational...logical conclusions. That you even agree with! <3 Perhaps we should talk on comms about this. If you're mind is made so arbitrarily then I think you're not the man I heard the other day. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3219	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:24:00 - [55] - Quote Haerr wrote: Hmm... If you have a Caldari Scout can we jump on Dust and try it out? You can find me in #Legio or Scouts United Alas my friend I've been up all night watching this thread like a hawk and now i'm quite sleepy. But i'm def down to try it out soon. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3224	Posted - 2014.05.24 14:57:00 - [56] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: I want to recap real quick. For a gal scout to hide from gal logi focused scans they need to be cloaked and have 3 low slots filled with damps. The problem is, they only have 45 seconds of time to remain invisible. Once scanned it's too late(active scan mechanics keep you lit up on tac net even if your profile drops due to cloaks) This sort of nerf will not allow gal scouts to be invisible. Gal logi WILL spam focused tools to create a window of opportunity that won't allow gal scouts to remain hidden. Therefore no scout will ever remain hidden. Caldari scout could never remain invisible, this is not new. Radar invisibility is not the problem with gal scouts. Again i think it's better off to make it so cloaks hide you from active scans of the same meta level. Allow gal scouts to hide from focused scans. It's mathematically possible and likely going to take a lot of thought. That's the only appropriate way to balance. Lastly, I'll say it again, four slots AND use of an active mod to defeat a single piece of equipment is not balanced. The sacrifice a must take to hide is not worth the cost to do so. Therefore it won't happen because it's not guaranteed to keep them off the radar(active module) a gal with 3 damps will be under enough that the cloak bonus doesn't matter. The other scouts wil have 45 seconds to accomplish a goal and regroup. we agree on the 4 slots. Make it 3 slots max. As for the underline..I can't tell if you think this is currently? cause it's not. if you think this has been proposed? I haven't seen Ratatti sign off on a nerf that would make the gal need 3 YET. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3224	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:27:00 - [57] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: Basically proves that gallente logi is the all mighty scanning machine beating the caldari scout. Is this what you call balance to the game. facepalm The cal gets 14.91 DB (rounded to 15) the gal focused it 15db CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3224	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:31:00 - [58] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: I want to recap real quick. For a gal scout to hide from gal logi focused scans they need to be cloaked and have 3 low slots filled with damps. The problem is, they only have 45 seconds of time to remain invisible. Once scanned it's too late(active scan mechanics keep you lit up on tac net even if your profile drops due to cloaks) This sort of nerf will not allow gal scouts to be invisible. Gal logi WILL spam focused tools to create a window of opportunity that won't allow gal scouts to remain hidden. Therefore no scout will ever remain hidden. Caldari scout could never remain invisible, this is not new. Radar invisibility is not the problem with gal scouts. Again i think it's better off to make it so cloaks hide you from active scans of the same meta level. Allow gal scouts to hide from focused scans. It's mathematically possible and likely going to take a lot of thought. That's the only appropriate way to balance. Lastly, I'll say it again, four slots AND use of an active mod to defeat a single piece of equipment is not balanced. The sacrifice a must take to hide is not worth the cost to do so. Therefore it won't happen because it's not guaranteed to keep them off the radar(active module) a gal with 3 damps will be under enough that the cloak bonus doesn't matter. The other scouts wil have 45 seconds to accomplish a goal and regroup. we agree on the 4 slots. Make it 3 slots max. As for the underline..I can't tell if you think this is currently? cause it's not. if you think this has been proposed? I haven't seen Ratatti sign off on a nerf that would make the gal need 3 YET. CCP Rattati wrote: A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. 14dB means under the focused radar. Look at the scanning table. 2 complex damps for a gal scout leaves it at 14 db. no 3rd slot. BUT I think in the long run it SHOULD need a 3rd slot to get under the exceptions shotty mentioned. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3224	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:34:00 - [59] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Cal scouts can get to 15, but requires their entire fit, as opposed to a single piece of equipment. Okay, so you have four slots or a 360 perma wallhack with 37 meters of range without adding range mods. or that niche specialization that allows that piece of equipment to POTENTIALLY scan a scout for 6.25 seconds You lose out on duration, at least 300 degrees of coverage, and cannot paint targets reliably. with 4 equips (to the 4 slots on the cal 360 perma wallhack) you only get 25 seconds of a minute along with all the other downsides. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3224	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:38:00 - [60] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: BlazeXYZ wrote: Basically proves that gallente logi is the all mighty scanning machine beating the caldari scout. Is this what you call balance to the game. facepalm The cal gets 14.91 DB (rounded to 15) the gal focused it 15db Who would sacrifice their whole effing high slot just for precision enhancers. A piece of one equipment doesn't need that much of a sacrifice. Gallente logi still wins. it's called min maxing. I do it every PC to make sure I have the best chance of picking up anyone entering the city. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3225	Posted - 2014.05.24 16:03:00 - [61] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Actually current proposal is fine if the numbers are true. rather than Rattai's statement (3 damps + cloak). Gal scout only needs 3 damps to remain hidden, no cloak. Cloak has no bearing on any meaningful counters except at proto level against a gal logi focused scans with nongal scouts. The proposal won't change gameplay much for true scouts. Other than the need to fit a damp instead of fit cloak. Making brick tanking less viable. Success!!!!!!!!!! Huzzah! CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3251	Posted - 2014.05.25 00:35:00 - [62] - Quote Arkena and some other dismissed the cloak duration suggestion early on. Just to let you know. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3252	Posted - 2014.05.25 00:46:00 - [63] - Quote Awesome. Can't wait to see how it plays out. And I think we all hope for a further look at rebalancing the e-war scene further in the future. <3 CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3258	Posted - 2014.05.25 03:18:00 - [64] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: So with all these changes are you guys giving back all our sp from the things your changing so that we could specialize in what we decide to put sp on. And also when is the release. Lol i hope not. Bonuses in the past for cal assault and cal logi were changed and tweaked and no respec. No respecs for hotfix alpha IMO CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3258	Posted - 2014.05.25 03:34:00 - [65] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: I still don't get the idea of reducing the passive scans for gal scout. I honestly don't think its an issue and that only the dampening bonus is an issue that makes the scout OP. Do you guys think the passive scans on the gallente scout is OP. If not why change it. I mean...I dont think it's a major factor...but here's a question. How does it fit in with what the gal's specialty is? What is the gal's specialty role? In what way does the gal scout deserve that bonus? CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3262	Posted - 2014.05.25 04:37:00 - [66] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: I hate having the suit you skill into get changed so much. Wish I was cal scout now like the majority of PC scouts I see. Rofl, didn't you see? 50% of scout use if gal. Being unscannable with only 1 low slot > all. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3265	Posted - 2014.05.25 07:02:00 - [67] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Ares 514 wrote: I hate having the suit you skill into get changed so much. Wish I was cal scout now like the majority of PC scouts I see. Rofl, didn't you see? 50% of scout use if gal. Being unscannable with only 1 low slot > all. I have faced 10+ cal scout in a PC battle, never seen that with gal scout. Cool beans, doesn't change the data homie. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3281	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:07:00 - [68] - Quote Someone say Absolution?! :D CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3282	Posted - 2014.05.25 20:09:00 - [69] - Quote Flyingconejo wrote: IWS said that you guys will have no place in Legion. I don't know what you did, but CCP must be pretty pissed about it. D: CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3301	Posted - 2014.05.28 04:11:00 - [70] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: A kink in the plans? Don't know about you guys, but I had assumed Spin Scanning was fixed. A GalLogi scanning 300 degrees every so often might make for problem. I'm not saying that we should change anything. Only pointing out a potential issue. I have asked an engineer to take a look, I will keep you posted. Now that was fast. At every turn you seem to be right on top of it. <3 CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

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