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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 25 post(s) |
Oswald Rehnquist
1380
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Posted - 2014.05.22 07:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:You're going to have to change more than one stat. You pretty much have to rework every scout. This isn't just about the gallente scout. It's about ALL scouts. You have to think about how this cloaking change will effect EVERY scout.
Do not balance around pubs and general laziness. Balance around a competitive environment where people will counter something. If every scout can be countered easily then no one will run e-war. Previously scouts were practically useless in PC because the tacnet system in this game is ridiculous.
A scanned scout is a dead scout. If every scout can be scanned there is no point in running scout because it has no role.
Entirely this, its going to require an entire rethinking of scouts, otherwise its just tolerating the fact that its gal scout or no scout, which I know is what you are not wanting to hear.
If a scout variant can't beat a scan, its not going to survive, auto detect installations are a perfect example of non functional scouts, and you could see those.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1380
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Posted - 2014.05.22 07:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:You're going to have to change more than one stat. You pretty much have to rework every scout. This isn't just about the gallente scout. It's about ALL scouts. You have to think about how this cloaking change will effect EVERY scout.
Do not balance around pubs and general laziness. Balance around a competitive environment where people will counter something. If every scout can be countered easily then no one will run e-war. Previously scouts were practically useless in PC because the tacnet system in this game is ridiculous.
A scanned scout is a dead scout. If every scout can be scanned there is no point in running scout because it has no role.
Entirely this, its going to require an entire rethinking of scouts, otherwise its just tolerating the fact that its gal scout or no scout, which I know is what you are not wanting to hear.
If a scout variant can't beat a scan, its not going to survive, auto detect installations are a perfect example of non functional scouts, and you could see those.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1381
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Posted - 2014.05.22 07:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus
2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus
The problem is that 1.8 really balanced each scout with each other, I mean the numbers were flawlessly reflected off of each other, but it was built like a house of cards, you pull one and it comes falling down.
Currently in supremacy is
1) Gal
2) Cal
3) Min/Ama
What this post is asking here is what scout do we want to be the op scout, the gal scout or the caldari scout? If you nerf the gallente, then its cal scout or go home. If you don't touch anything right now, its gal scout or go home.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1383
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Posted - 2014.05.22 07:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:1) Reduce the Gallente dampening bonus
2) Change the Gallente dampening bonus to a duration bonus
I kind of noticed that I didn't actually answer the question I presented.
The gallente keeps the caldari in check (renders it useless), the caldari keeps the other two in check.
If a decision is needed soon, and these are really our options and we are forced to decide between op gal scouts or op cal scouts, the game will be "healthier" if the op scout was the gal scout, and I say this as a cal scout user (who always loved the detector role).
If anything is going to be changed, then changing the caldari racial  would be the best way to do it. If you remove the caldari scout, the other two scouts would be able to breathe a little bit. Also it would render the ultility of the gallente dampener bonus to really only be used against gal logis, thus inadequately making the amarr scout's ability more useful for general purpose.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1388
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Posted - 2014.05.22 09:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Move the bonus to effect modules??? (caldari would follow suit as well making all scouts module based bonuses)
should fix both gal brick and superior stealth in the same go.
Not too bad, but it falls short, and I'll try to explain why.
Here is Haers scanning table, as you can see it was balanced along with many other factors included the gal logi.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArOdomK1wfBOdE1vUU1VLXdrN1prYVBwdkw4VlB2cmc&usp=sharing
I have my doubts you guys are going to really get the prevision/scanners v dampening game correct again with so few changes, especially when the goal is expediency more so than forethought. Not intended as an insult, but CCP had more resources the first time around. It is a rather complicated avenue, and you guys need to understand the current system, as I don't think you guys know how things were balanced previously.
1)
The gallante needs to beat our the caldari in the scanning game. The reason why this is important is because a 4 precision modded cal scout will never catch a gal scout, thus its a pointless build for this purpose. This pressures the cal scout to run with less precision mods.
2)
The cal scout is the counter to the other two scouts, who can't bypass his scans with his omniscience, but due to the decentives of the gal scout, the meta game then turns into running as few precision mods as possible. Enough to catch the other scouts but not too much to be wasted by getting toasted by a gal scout who you can't catch.
With module based bonuses there is no number of precision mod meta, its will always be stack as many as you can. In which case it will either be A) other scouts can't bypass it, effectively keeping the other scouts out of the game, or B) other scouts can bypass it and thus cal scouts are worthless.
And should these bonuses be cut too much to bring it to the middle, you also run the real danger of running towards an extremely boring middle, where no scout is really anything unique. I'm more inclined to maintain as much of the integrity of the well thought out system and just change the caldari racial.
TL/DR: As it stands its going to be cal or gal unless you break that cycle, and the balancing between them is not going to fit nicely if you plan on trying to recreate that cycle, which was what the entire scout v scout gameplay was based on.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1388
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Posted - 2014.05.22 09:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Now that I've been thoroughly convinced.
Re-evaluate the Scouts entirely. There needs to be more distinction between the Caldari Scout's role and the performance of the Active Scanner, it doesn't make sense for the two to have overlap and the entire reason the Active Scanner was nerfed was due to it's extreme power in the 'twirling' aspect.
Active Scanners should be good for Range, Caldari Scouts for Precision. A Caldari Scout should be a good counter to a Gallente Scout but it shouldn't step on the toes of the Gallente Logistics in terms of general use.
Hate to say it Rattati, but they're right; Scouts do need another overhaul. Caldari/Gallente are very powerful, the Minmatar Scout has the potential for it and the Amarr Scout is falling short.
Another aspect you off on, the gal scout is the counter to the cal scout, not the other way around, I elaborated on it on my response to IWS.
Which is why changing the cal racial is the best band aid out there right now.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1395
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Posted - 2014.05.22 10:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
I suppose but it being entirely passive at that range is why we're so pissed off at the Caldari Scout stepping on the toes of the Gallente Logistics O.o;
I don't think everyone is pissed off at cal scouts stepping on a toes of a class that disappeared once scanning required some skill due to a function that quite a few don't know about.
Your arguing a precision v precision meta, but the recent changes have zero to do with that. I think your more shocked with your revelation more so than what is being balanced here.
What is changing is the the precision vs dampening meta, which has the potential to throw one of two scouts as thy scout and nullifying the other 3 suits.
Going with a high precision and low range for the caldari scout, has us treading into extremely unfamiliar territory in regards to balance as we now open an entirely new front where the drop in range may not justify the amount of precision or where the amount of precision is too higher to be functional for the other scouts to function against.
Or is you are just talking about just a flat removal of of that bonus and nothing else, given the present data and the changes, suggesting an effective removal of a ghost slot from the caldari scout will somehow balance scouts is a little hard to comprehend considering that the current changes still favor the gal scout even without the scanning range.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1417
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Posted - 2014.05.23 00:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Just to throw it out there one last time for CCP, to keep it simple
You can't balance the gal dampening with the cal precision without the waves of opportunity provided by the cloak for the use of the other two scouts. The cloak dampening effect was thy only thing that allowed cal scouts to have their current racial. I'll tell you right now, its not possible to balance this without nullifying one or more variants of the scout.
By changing the cal racial to a non precision bonus, these will happen
1) Two scouts automatically become more viable, no longer needing to dampen so hard (since alpha is taking away their defense). Since they are not auto detected they can focus on their specialization (mins hacking, amars fitting)
2) The gal scouts utility drops since auto detection is not so prevalent, why have a high damp when the only thing that can possible catch you is a gal logi? It still has the range bonus, that can be debated if you want, but the result is that the gallente falls down with the other 2 scouts.
3) Last but not least, the cal scout utility is free to still make it relevant and on par with the scouts, what that could be is probably what my last response to this thread will be. After that point, its up to the powers that be to make a smart decision.
I will also say that the removal/reduction of dampening on cloaks gives you guys more work, but if this is happening then the cal precision has to go, and I don't say this with joy either, its just what is required for balancing given this direction and limited resources.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1418
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Posted - 2014.05.23 00:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Brokerib wrote:
Really good post. I only have one point of difference. Removing the need to the Gal to fit any dampening by reducing the effectiveness of the Cal leads to more plate stacking. So the Gal remains the prime scout, purely because it's bonuses are better than the Amarr, while both have the best slot layout in the current meta. That said, still seems like the best option I've seen so far.
This is absolutely true, I am aware of it and it is thy biggest weakness in the set up. Essentially its error towards keeping most of the smart set that that has already been established which slightly favors the gallente scout which is better than an absolute dominance by a single scout.
I'll still be looking in this thread for superior ideas to mine, which are desperately needed.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1421
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Posted - 2014.05.24 04:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
1) GA scout bonus from dampening to duration
2) Brick tanking should become more difficult with plate penalties and PG changes
3) Duration is shortened and has class progression
4) Dampening of cloaks is reduced and has class progression
5) Caldari passive scan range reduced
The highest possible dampening fit beats the highest possible scan fit
Considering that I thought the topic was dead, its good to hear that its still in the works even after this patch. If these are the changes, I'll provide something that works with this above.
Assuming that the underline is true (except for cal which is fine, less so for min), then I will say that I am relieved for the most part. And While I am still extremely caution about changing the system, there might be something in what you guys are doing, hopefully getting it to a good place on the next patch cycle.
Obviously this does not included the cal which is fine, but I don't think the Min scout fits in with that statement though (I'll need to do the math), in which case, the min scout is going to need something, though I'll touch upon them later.
Cal Scouts
Since you mentioned range and not precision changes, your going with a high precision low range aspect for balancing the Cal scout, should be interesting to say the least.
Cal scouts aren't going to put on damps (very rarely at any rate), in which case I'm assuming you want to encourage them to run range amplifiers instead of plates, which is why you are cutting their scanning range. To really encourage that though, I'd suggest dropping it down to 15 m at least. One complex amplifier gets you something like 22 m and another one gets you around 30 m. While one range amp will be common, two will be relatively rare, but are mainly there to reveal other scouts in a particular area, and less so for scanning wide ranges.
Min Scout
I'm pretty sure the min scout isn't fitting into this quite so nicely by not being able to dodge the scan, in which case I do think they need a buff. Particularly more utility. I'm not as well versed on what the min needs in particular, I know speed used to be an extremely important scout trait (it got nerfed). But in the Min Scouts case it would help getting to points faster and catching targets faster with the knife/gun. Again, not the expect on what is needed here, I just know something is needed.
Ama Scout
Will probably be the most interesting change wise, assuming its still getting the 3 regen from the gal scout, the Amarr scout will be the premier battle scout, using its slightly better fitting options to tank, but how will that stack to with the tanking mod nerf? Again will be interesting to see.
Gal Scouts
If the gal scout damp is changing to a duration bonus, that puts extreme dependence on the cloak which is getting nerfed. I'd might consider the gal scout getting its scan range bonus increased. Assuming the cal scout is meant for specific sweeps of scouts, the gal scout could be the wider beacon for the other suits once scouts v assaults get balanced.
My $.02 at any rate, if this is what is happening.
Congrats on keeping the dialog going
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