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Happy Violentime wrote:

Haerr wrote:

Happy Violentime wrote:

Haerr wrote:

Anyone of these (alone without any other modifications) is a horrible idea which puts us right back into 1.7 where scouts were being perma scanned (bar a gal scout with 4 dampeners).]

You WHAT!!!???

In 1.7 you could run a medium suit with 2 complex damps and avoid proto scanners - If a scout was perma-scanned in 1.7 it had 0 damps on the suit.

I'm guessing you never played against Nyain San (or others... I was running a GalLogi with Focused Scanners when we were up against a lot of Scouts) Blink

Besides I remember Appia sharing a GalLogi fit with 3 enhancers that could pick up those silly 2x dampened medium suits. Funny how the GalLogi of old was a better scout than scouts was.

Scanning table for 1.7: LINK

*Sigh* I'm guessing you don't like being told you are wrong? Well..... you're wrong.

That table is trash, in reality 2 complex damps + the passive dampening skill brought a medium suit under 15db - I'd actually suggest that CCP math was way out and that 2 complex damps + the passive from the skill gave you a 75% reduction to profile - giving a medium suit with 2 complex damps a 12.5DB profile.

But what the **** do I know? I only ran a Medium suit with 2 complex damps for all of 1.7 and never got scanned, ever. So obviously I'm talking ****. So **** off you ******* ********.

MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 25 post(s)
The-Errorist Sver true blood 705	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:16:00 - [1] - Quote With the proposed changes, here's what it would take to prevent being scanned by a someone with Gallente logi Lv5 using prototype scanners and what it would take for Cal scouts to scan at different dB. [Prototype active scanner]: 21 dB Amarr: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Caldari: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Gallente: 1 basic profile dampener Minmatar: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener [Lv5 Cal scout w/ 2 complex precision enhancers]: 17.85 dB Amarr: 2 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener Minmatar: 2 complex profile dampener & 1 basic profile dampener [Prototype focused active scanner] 15dB Amarr: 3 complex profile dampeners & 1 enhanced profile dampener Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 enhanced profile dampener Minmatar: Impossible [Lv5 Cal scout w/ 4 complex precision enhancers]: 14.91 dB Amarr: 4 complex profile dampeners Caldari: Impossible Gallente: 1 complex profile dampener & 1 enhanced profile dampener Minmatar: Impossible Gal logis and Cal scouts specialize in scanning and low precision which counters dampening Gal scouts specialize in low profiles which counters precision I think is fine; if other scouts that don't get a bonus to dampening were able to hide from those with a role bonus to precision, by only using one low slot dampening module, it would make those with precision bonuses not that competitive. Also the other scouts have other roles too (except for Amarr). MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
The-Errorist Sver true blood 706	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:52:00 - [2] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: Haerr wrote: Happy Violentime wrote: Haerr wrote: Anyone of these (alone without any other modifications) is a horrible idea which puts us right back into 1.7 where scouts were being perma scanned (bar a gal scout with 4 dampeners).] You WHAT!!!??? In 1.7 you could run a medium suit with 2 complex damps and avoid proto scanners - If a scout was perma-scanned in 1.7 it had 0 damps on the suit. I'm guessing you never played against Nyain San (or others... I was running a GalLogi with Focused Scanners when we were up against a lot of Scouts) Besides I remember Appia sharing a GalLogi fit with 3 enhancers that could pick up those silly 2x dampened medium suits. Funny how the GalLogi of old was a better scout than scouts was. Scanning table for 1.7: LINK Sigh I'm guessing you don't like being told you are wrong? Well..... you're wrong. That table is trash, in reality 2 complex damps + the passive dampening skill brought a medium suit under 15db - I'd actually suggest that CCP math was way out and that 2 complex damps + the passive from the skill gave you a 75% reduction to profile - giving a medium suit with 2 complex damps a 12.5DB profile. But what the ** do I know? I only ran a Medium suit with 2 complex damps for all of 1.7 and never got scanned, ever. So obviously I'm talking . So off you *** ****. Sure, before 1.8 you could get by with just 2 complex dampeners in PC on a medium frame and only be scanned by the focused variant, but that time has passed. It is not possible to hide from a prototype active scanner with just a medium frame against a Lv5 Gal logi with that same fit; It takes 4 complex dampeners and 1 basic dampener to hide from a Gal logi with a proto scanner and it is impossible to hide from a Gal logi using a focused scan with only a medium frame**. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
The-Errorist Sver true blood 708	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:13:00 - [3] - Quote RedPencil wrote: CCP Rattati announce to remove the dampening effect of the cloak the Hotfix Alpha. I think that make Min scout with lower tier have no ground to stand. It will force Min scout to fit 2 damp at least to stay compete with other, and the low tier has only 2 slots. So we have to drop code breaker. I think this nerf will drive people to select gal scout even more to bypass that. So you want to be able to hide from a prototype active scanner in the hands of a suit with a role bonus towards precision, by only using 1 module? MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
The-Errorist Sver true blood 714	Posted - 2014.05.23 06:57:00 - [4] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: A scanned scout is a dead scout. If every scout can be scanned there is no point in running scout because it has no role. That is really not true; scouts aren't as squishy as they were before 1.8 and non Gallente and Amarr scouts have usefull scouty roles such as hacking, scan precision, knife damage, and scan radius. RedPencil wrote: Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: yeah there is nothing wrong with 2 of the scouts and the other 2 are garbage you dont raise the 2 garbage ones by turning the other 2 into garbage. especially now that clocks will not be giving a damping bonus, thats going to make the proto gal scout users super fukin op True, Amarr scout is a joke but not Min cout. I'm not sure if you ever run Min or Amarr scout. Min need 2 damp to stay under pro to Active scan but still see by Cal, with their 2(3 at pro to) low slots limit them to chose to be low profile or a speed hack. I think the idea that you have to choose wisely how to fit is a basic balance. Try to give an proper explanation not to limit down Gal and Cal scout please. IgniteableAura wrote: First off, the number of people that lack the knowledge of game mechanics should stop suggesting advice. Not understanding how mods work, what their overall effect is to balance and overall terrible discussion is terrible. To get back on topic of removing the damp bonus of cloaks. Its a terrible idea, and its been said why its a terrible idea multiple times in this thread, so I am not going to rehash it, mostly because it breaks the only DECENT balance we have in this game. Without the cloak bonus I wouldn't even fit a cloak. Its the only way to remain hidden from cal scouts if you are not a gal scout. The first thing that could be changed is the gal scouts range bonus. Why do they have it? It really doesn't correlate to the role of damping. If CCP could translate this damp bonus to your squad mates in the radius it would have a purpose, but I don't think thats something CCP can implement. This would provide a pretty good counter to the caldari. Read post #86 You only need 1 damp to hide from non-precision mod using Cal scouts and normal prototype scanners that aren't being used by the Gal logi, which also has a role bonus towards scanning (passive vs active), and 2 if it is being used by a Gal logi. If you want to be able to hide from a Gal logi using a prototype focused active scanner or a cal scout using 2 precison mods with only 2 damps on a scout that does not have a bonus towards dampening, you're just asking for too much. I also support removing shared passive scan. I would support having waves of opportunity from from cloak modules only if standard cloaks started off with a 0% dampening bonus and a higher percentage for adv and pro cloaks like Rattati suggested. This would alleviate the brick tanking scout w/ super low profile problem and still allow people to get a waves of dampening opportunity by using higher tier cloaks. Not every scout needs to be perfect hiders like the Gallente, they each should have their own roles other than dampening. There was another point brought up about how the Gal logi's bonus shouldn't overlap with Cal scout's bonus. The thing is, there are two types of scanning and they get a bonus to one and each has their own pros and cons. Passive scanning Always on with no cooldown Targets stay scanned as long as they stay in your scan radius 360 degree scans Short range Doesn't inform enemies of the scan attempt Doesn't take up an equipment slot No PG/CPU cost Can still move/interact normally Active scanning There's cooldown Targets stay scanned for at least 10s after low degree scans Longer range Inform enemies of the scan attempt and whether or not it was successful Take up an equipment slot Costs PG/CPU to fit Can't do anything else besides walk while scanning MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
The-Errorist Sver true blood 715	Posted - 2014.05.23 07:08:00 - [5] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: well if matari ewar bonus is hacking, then maybe the amar can set up a "firewall" by "hacking an already hacked objective" Thus increasing the amount of time needed to hack for all other roles, except for the matari, which would be normal hacking speed? Encrypting 5% per lvl :p This would be a great bonus if it also had a bonus to scrambler pistol damage. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
The-Errorist Sver true blood 715	Posted - 2014.05.23 07:12:00 - [6] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: The-Errorist wrote: it is impossible to hide from a Gal logi using a focused scan with only a medium frame. And that is how it should be. If you read the full post, it would be very clear that I never said or implied that you should be able to hide from a Gal logi using a focused scan with only a medium frame. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 720	Posted - 2014.05.24 11:26:00 - [7] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: Stuff More stuff First, an amarr scout with 4 complex damps can not get under a gal logi with pro focused. Amarr scout with 4 complex damps is 14.7 db, pro focused is 15db, which means Amarr scout will be scanned and min and cal have no chance to avoid it. ... Even more stuff It looks like you don't understand what they numbers mean. If you're profile is lower than the scan precision, you aren't scanned; if your profile is 14.7 db and the scanner has a precision of 15, you wont be scanned. Also you missed this: CCP Rattati wrote: Ok, scouts, please come back to me on this problem, exactly as I word it. Here is the premise 1) I want to encourage stealth players to go to proto cloak 2) GA scout will be the only scout that is completely unscannable 3) Not let GA scouts be the only stealth scouts and use cloaks So, I have been told, I can verify when I am back at work, that if we change the cloak to be at 10% dampening instead of 5% at PRO, at least 3 stealth scouts are viable with cloak, GA, CA and MM. I think that's fine, I don't think everyone should be equally good at everthing. Amarr will get a look soon. Max scan precision from CA scout is 17 (if my math is correct), terribly close to 16. Since I want the only thing to beat the 100% dedicated scout scanner to be a 100% dedicated stealth scout. A triple complex dampened, GA scout with a cloak at the new 10% level is at 13.5 or 14 dB. That means we can reduce the GA Scout bonus to 15% from 25% and still stay under the CA scout at 15.3 or 16dB. Thereby forcing the dedicate GA scout to sacrifice a low in most cases, so that he can't spend it on armor. For the coup de grace, we can reduce the range of the CA passive scan a little bit because it's unnecessarily good. Please respond to this in a civil manner, we are actively trying to listen and adapt our proposals based on your feedback. Anyway, I really like the way this is going, but one thing that needs to be done is make fitting a prototype focused active scanner harder, since a scout has to make lots of sacrifices to hide from it, so should the person trying to use it. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 720	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:06:00 - [8] - Quote Lady MDK wrote: To be quite frank this is what comes of having different races 'scouts' filling different roles and having completely different bonuses. You in effect create different ROLES within what is supposedly the same class. So rather than having a skill tree that goes : light -> scout (but having each race having a different specialty) What you should effectively have is one that instead of just a scout role is have scout (sig reduction or scanning bonus), computer specialist (hacking speed), infiltrator (cloak), assassin (knives) and have 4 different tier 2 light suits for each race. In fact you should probablyhave less than 4 as some of these roles cross over each other and are therefore less rounded. Instead you have tried to shove all of these roles into one class of suit and created a disparity amoungst the races scout suits. Just my opinion feel free to dissagree. All the scouts are scouts because they all have a bonus to use optical camouflage that can also reduce scan profile, so one can be harder detect from visually and or scanners. In addition to that, the Gal & Cal scouts have a bonus towards scanning which is information gathering which is something a scout does. The Min scout has a bonus to hacking which is also something that a generally falls into something a scout would do (you never heard of people sending in scouts to sneak in and mess things up for the enemy?): go in fast and mess up by hack enemy's tactical points which can be just hacking turret installations, CRUs, null cannons, or even killing someone to steal their vehicle by hacking it. Even the Am scouts not so useful bonus is scouty, being able to run for extended periods of time or having good stamina are vaguely scouty traits. Even though not all of them clearly fit the definition of a scout without any gray areas, just changing how the skill tree works or even the name of the specialization would require a lot of work like localization, testing if the skills properly apply to the new roles, adding skill books, and making sure those other roles also get a bonus to fitting a cloak module. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 721	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:24:00 - [9] - Quote Since Gallente scouts are mostly about not being detected, would it be a good idea to remove its scan radius bonus and add a cloak duration bonus, so it has a bonus towards dampening and duration of cloak? This would also not make the gal scout have a bonus that's too similar to the Cal scout. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 721	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:42:00 - [10] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Since Gallente scouts are mostly about not being detected, would it be a good idea to remove its scan radius bonus and add a cloak duration bonus, so it has a bonus towards dampening and duration of cloak? To me that makes more sense. Honestly, even right now 60 seconds on the advanced begs you to have campy play. I wanna see 45 seconds at proto in action before they implement something like that. On the hotfix alpha spreadsheet, the proposed cloak duration is 15/30/45 STD-ADV-PRO. If those were the final numbers, would you like what I'm suggesting? MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).

The-Errorist SVER True Blood 721	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:55:00 - [11] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: What if I told you, that the only reason I skilled into the gk.0 scout is because that I thought the racial bonus' would apply to my dren scout? :p I would think that you wanted to make a high ISK efficient fitting. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 722	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:12:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati, are you still considering removing shared vision from passive scans? MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 722	Posted - 2014.05.24 13:22:00 - [13] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Also, what's your angle Zatara? You're parlaying an isolated OP item (bricked GalScout) into a nerf package for all Scouts. Next, we'll buff Assaults. Then Scouts will be wholly non competitive. Again. Why? Nerf package for all scouts? Are you referring to the cloak duration or something else? If it's the cloak duration, it really is unnecessarily long. I think the nerf he's referring to the reduced dampening bonus from cloaks and by competitive I think he means HP tanking ability while being completely unscannable. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 722	Posted - 2014.05.24 23:24:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Yes I think we are done here. Thanks for the awesome feedback, I hope we can all be happy with this discussion and how it sets the bar for future dev-community interaction. What about the responses to your last question and the related issues raised? For example, making it harder to fit a prototype focused scanner? If a scout has to make lots of sacrifices to hide from it, why shouldn't the person using that scanner need to make sacrifices too? Another related and seemingly unnoticed/unreplied suggestion (to you) was to remove the scan radius bonus and replace that with a cloak duration bonus, so that it has 2 bonuses for hiding (dampening & cloak duration) instead of only having a duration bonus like you suggested earlier. This would make the Gal scout not a bonus that's too similar to the Cal scout too. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.