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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 31 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 08:15:00 - [1] - Quote Dear players, as part of a Logi and Commando review, and my own rational hatred of irrational things, we will be aligning speeds across the board in an imminent hotfix. Consider this initiative only a part of the changes. I believe this will give Commandos and Logis a real buff, as they will be more mobile, even if stacking hitpoints, and will be a needed reduction in the Assault class overall, with the outliers of Minmatar Assault overwhelming moblity, and Amarr Assault hp stacked fits. A picture says more than a thousand words, so please take a look. I am also constructing the brick version of this chart to see how that pans out. My assumption is that Commandos will need at least an extra slot to be able to tank comparably o other Roles. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Anaheim Darko Corrosive Synergy No Context 649	Posted - 2015.05.27 08:30:00 - [2] - Quote Positive changes, thanks Rattatti. Might spec into commandos in the near future if they get faster and an extra slot! And great to see logis get extra mobility! Caldari Assault ck.0. Caldari Scout ck.0. Caldari Sentinel ck.0
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.27 08:45:00 - [3] - Quote While you're at it, mind fixing the Gallente speed being the same as Caldari? Gallente are supposed to be very fast for short bursts of speed (MWD eating capacitor). We could simulate that by giving Gallente similar speed to Minmatar, but very bad stamina. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 08:45:00 - [4] - Quote Yes, agreed that Commandos really need at least another slot. And loving the changes, looking forward to testing this out in game :) Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 08:51:00 - [5] - Quote Looks like you are going to make the minmatar commando just as quick as a caldari assault.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 08:55:00 - [6] - Quote Good changes and the beginnings of some real differentials between the logi and the Commando roles. The meta of the game at the moment is too geared to slayers at the moment and the logibro's in particular are taking a hit in their gameplay at the moment. I've been thinking my Galmando could do with an extra slot as well, either low for extra armour rep or high for extra agility. This is just the beginning of some love towards these two classes so post your thoughts here guys. CPM 1 member CEO of DUST University Vist dustcpm.com

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 08:57:00 - [7] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: While you're at it, mind fixing the Gallente speed being the same as Caldari? Gallente are supposed to be very fast for short bursts of speed (MWD eating capacitor). We could simulate that by giving Gallente similar sprint speed to Minmatar, but very bad stamina. Would help the Duvolle too, in the whole "get close and rekt" part. Which speeds aren't aligned? I didn't notice, they are always supposed to be the same as CA. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:04:00 - [8] - Quote Oh you know I love clean rational designs. Much like inversely related Range vs DPS , inversely related Speed vs HP makes a lot of sense and brings better continuity to the game. As for Commandos in particular, the addition of another slot and an increase to mobility is exactly what I wanted to see. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:06:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: While you're at it, mind fixing the Gallente speed being the same as Caldari? Gallente are supposed to be very fast for short bursts of speed (MWD eating capacitor). We could simulate that by giving Gallente similar sprint speed to Minmatar, but very bad stamina. Would help the Duvolle too, in the whole "get close and rekt" part. Which speeds aren't aligned? I didn't notice, they are always supposed to be the same as CA. No, I'm talking EVE. Gallente are second fastest after Minmatar, Caldari are slowest until Amarr plate up. Gallente use Micro Warp Drives to close the distance and apply massive shredding from their Blasters. (Ga Ass charging with a Duvolle or Shotgun) Micro Warp Drives eats capacitor like crazy, and as such has to be used in bursts, not always on. A simulation of that in DUST would be like giving Gallente same or better sprint speed than Minmatar, but nerfing the stamina so it can only be used in short bursts. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:15:00 - [10] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: A simulation of that in DUST would be like giving Gallente same or better sprint speed than Minmatar, but nerfing the stamina so it can only be used in short bursts. Logged on the Big Board "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:17:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: A simulation of that in DUST would be like giving Gallente same or better sprint speed than Minmatar, but nerfing the stamina so it can only be used in short bursts. Logged on the Big Board \o/ "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:22:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: A simulation of that in DUST would be like giving Gallente same or better sprint speed than Minmatar, but nerfing the stamina so it can only be used in short bursts. Logged on the Big Board I see what Cat's thinking... A cardiac reg is so much easier on the fitting than a kincat... ;) Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:23:00 - [13] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: A simulation of that in DUST would be like giving Gallente same or better sprint speed than Minmatar, but nerfing the stamina so it can only be used in short bursts. Logged on the Big Board \o/ Amarr meanwhile would just have stupid amounts of stamina while being slow. CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:25:00 - [14] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: A simulation of that in DUST would be like giving Gallente same or better sprint speed than Minmatar, but nerfing the stamina so it can only be used in short bursts. Logged on the Big Board I see what Cat's thinking... A cardiac reg is so much easier on the fitting than a kincat... ;) Yeah, no. I would still fit a Kin Cat to maximize my viable speed. The Duvolle feeds on speed, the faster you are, the more effective you can be with that thing. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:27:00 - [15] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: A simulation of that in DUST would be like giving Gallente same or better sprint speed than Minmatar, but nerfing the stamina so it can only be used in short bursts. Logged on the Big Board Jesus I think I just saw a flock of flying pigs... How long have we been asking for this lol? I guess we just make cat post stuff from now on when we need results
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 456	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:29:00 - [16] - Quote Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks... 8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply. Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV. Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance? How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo.
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:30:00 - [17] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks... 8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply. Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV. Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance? How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo. ...What? Did you notice the other part? Nerf stamina? I want Gallente to be what they are supposed to be, quick sprinters, terrible long distance runners. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:33:00 - [18] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks... 8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply. Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV. Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance? How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo. Don't rant and derail the official community feedback threads, and leave the anti-shield conspiracy tinfoilery at the door. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:35:00 - [19] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks... 8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply. Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV. Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance? How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo. I can't down vote this enough >< can I please get a bot to help with this? CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:35:00 - [20] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks... 8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply. Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV. Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance? How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo. Shut up. constructive discussion happening. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:39:00 - [21] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: lol Prime League champion SGL Sidearm champion Fanfest '14 All star champion
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:41:00 - [22] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks... 8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply. Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV. Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance? How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo. Hey to be honest, most my complaints with shields are being indirectly handled here. The minmatar assault mobility was an issue for me. But also it's dual tanking ability needs to be addressed. And then the ScR being addressed so I don't die when it looks at me from 0m - 100m away
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:47:00 - [23] - Quote Okay this may seem a bit ranty, but its just my observations, no dev bashing here. I'm all for across the board consistency. Here the assaults suits are getting a really big nerf. From what i can tell from the picture, logis get 0.25 m/s buff, the assault suits roughly 0.5 m/s speed nerf, commandos .35 roughly speed buff. The Min Assault will be as fast the current Min Logi. Caldari and Gallente as slow as the current Amarr logi. And that is really, really slow. The Amarr assaults are gettin the speed of current heavy suits. Oh wow. Thats a little too much Mr. Rattati. In a Foot race, post changes, guessing roughly of course. 1. Min scout 5.7 m/s 2. Gal Scout Caldari Scout 5.4 m/s 3. Amarr scout, Min Logi 5.25 m/s 4. Gal Logi, Caldari Logi, Min Basic 5 m/s 5. Min Assult 4.85 m/s 6. Amarr Logi, Gallente basic, Caldari Basic 4.75 m/s 7. Gallente Assult, Caldari Assault, Amarr Basic, Minmatar commando 4.6 m/s 8. Amarr assault, Caldari Commando, Gallente Commando, Min heavy basic 4.4 m/s 10. Minmatar Setinel 4.25 m/s 11. Amarr commando, caldari heavy, gallente heavy 4.2 m/s 12.Caldari setinel, gellente setinel 3.9 m/s 13. Amarr heavy 4.85 m/s 14. Amarr setinel 3.6 m/s With the planned tiericide, I confidently predict the return of the slayer Logi. Identical slots, more fitting space, and now faster than the assault suits. After all, the Min Logi will have a 4/4/4 slot layout at all tiers, and is getting the min assaut speed. Fit militia equipment to free up fitting space and the ADV min logi becomes the current Proto Min Assault. You can apply the same logic to the other assaults with dare i say it, lackluster bonuses. A cal logi with 5/3/3 slots or a slower caldari assault that can reload. Gal logi with extra fitting space or a slow gal assault that has less dispersion? And the Amarr assult....well might as well run a commando or heavy suit instead, more HP and more fire power, and identical if not faster speeds. I can't wait for the forums will begin to erupt about the min logi's s hit box detection, etc etc. Pretty much every thing they spull out of thier butts about the min assault witll be applied to the min Logi. Suggetion: Tighten up the assault speeds. Start the minmatar at 5.1 m.s, Gal calari at 4.9 and end with the Amarr at 4.6 m/s Slightly slower than thier respective racial logis, but certainly faster then comandos. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:54:00 - [24] - Quote Seems legit. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 457	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:59:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Doc DDD wrote: Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks... 8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply. Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV. Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance? How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo. Don't rant and derail the official community feedback threads, and leave the anti-shield conspiracy tinfoilery at the door. That was my feedback, caldari will be nerfed to be slower than gallente if gallentes speed is buffed. complex regulator gives you 100% more stamina and regen on a suit with 5 lows. Unless you are planning on giving it a quarter of its current stamina and regen there will be even more imbalance. Why doesn't caldari have a much higher movement speed as it is only using shields? If you are giving gallente higher native top speed why not give caldari higher movement speed similar to minmitar assault ( which dual tanks ). Similar to vehicles, Gunlogis are better a manoeuvring while gallente has higher top speed? Isn't that how balance works? There is no rant, just trying to paint a picture on how certain things are being perceived.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:01:00 - [26] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: That was my feedback, caldari will be nerfed to be slower than gallente if gallentes speed is buffed. complex regulator gives you 100% more stamina and regen on a suit with 5 lows. Unless you are planning on giving it a quarter of its current stamina and regen there will be even more imbalance. Why doesn't caldari have a much higher movement speed as it is only using shields? If you are giving gallente higher native top speed why not give caldari higher movement speed similar to minmitar assault ( which dual tanks ). Similar to vehicles, Gunlogis are better a manoeuvring while gallente has higher top speed? Isn't that how balance works? There is no rant, just trying to paint a picture on how certain things are being perceived. This doesn't resemble what you posted in the sligthest, it was an accusative rant, and there's no mistaking it. And quit trying to logic, you suck at it, a buff to gallente does not automatically mean caldari were nerfed. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 458	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:09:00 - [27] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Doc DDD wrote: That was my feedback, caldari will be nerfed to be slower than gallente if gallentes speed is buffed. complex regulator gives you 100% more stamina and regen on a suit with 5 lows. Unless you are planning on giving it a quarter of its current stamina and regen there will be even more imbalance. Why doesn't caldari have a much higher movement speed as it is only using shields? If you are giving gallente higher native top speed why not give caldari higher movement speed similar to minmitar assault ( which dual tanks ). Similar to vehicles, Gunlogis are better a manoeuvring while gallente has higher top speed? Isn't that how balance works? There is no rant, just trying to paint a picture on how certain things are being perceived. This doesn't resemble what you posted in the sligthest, it was an accusative rant, and there's no mistaking it. Thanks for piping up for no reason, why would it resemble what I wrote when I am writing another statement... First post was my feedback Second post was more feedback with disclaimer that first post was not rant but feedback on perception of armor buffs. If you have constructive criticism of Ratattis original post feel free to make a statement, otherwize I will just ignore the troll that is usually looking for AV buffs.
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 458	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:11:00 - [28] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Doc DDD wrote: That was my feedback, caldari will be nerfed to be slower than gallente if gallentes speed is buffed. complex regulator gives you 100% more stamina and regen on a suit with 5 lows. Unless you are planning on giving it a quarter of its current stamina and regen there will be even more imbalance. Why doesn't caldari have a much higher movement speed as it is only using shields? If you are giving gallente higher native top speed why not give caldari higher movement speed similar to minmitar assault ( which dual tanks ). Similar to vehicles, Gunlogis are better a manoeuvring while gallente has higher top speed? Isn't that how balance works? There is no rant, just trying to paint a picture on how certain things are being perceived. This doesn't resemble what you posted in the sligthest, it was an accusative rant, and there's no mistaking it. And quit trying to logic, you suck at it, a buff to gallente does not automatically mean caldari were nerfed. So if you buffed every suit in the game save the heavy suit, this would not be a heavy nerf? Go back to school
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:15:00 - [29] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: If you have constructive criticism of Ratattis original post feel free to make a statement, otherwize I will just ignore the troll that is usually looking for AV buffs. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Good Lord you're full of yourself. Have fun banging your head on the wall. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:17:00 - [30] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Doc DDD wrote: That was my feedback, caldari will be nerfed to be slower than gallente if gallentes speed is buffed. complex regulator gives you 100% more stamina and regen on a suit with 5 lows. Unless you are planning on giving it a quarter of its current stamina and regen there will be even more imbalance. Why doesn't caldari have a much higher movement speed as it is only using shields? If you are giving gallente higher native top speed why not give caldari higher movement speed similar to minmitar assault ( which dual tanks ). Similar to vehicles, Gunlogis are better a manoeuvring while gallente has higher top speed? Isn't that how balance works? There is no rant, just trying to paint a picture on how certain things are being perceived. This doesn't resemble what you posted in the sligthest, it was an accusative rant, and there's no mistaking it. And quit trying to logic, you suck at it, a buff to gallente does not automatically mean caldari were nerfed. So if you buffed every suit in the game save the heavy suit, this would not be a heavy nerf? Go back to school No, in fact it would not, a nerf is a reduction, unless the heavy suit was in fact reduced in some fashion, then it is not a nerf. Are you unfamiliar with meaning and cause/effect? WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 459	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:24:00 - [31] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Doc DDD wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Doc DDD wrote: That was my feedback, caldari will be nerfed to be slower than gallente if gallentes speed is buffed. complex regulator gives you 100% more stamina and regen on a suit with 5 lows. Unless you are planning on giving it a quarter of its current stamina and regen there will be even more imbalance. Why doesn't caldari have a much higher movement speed as it is only using shields? If you are giving gallente higher native top speed why not give caldari higher movement speed similar to minmitar assault ( which dual tanks ). Similar to vehicles, Gunlogis are better a manoeuvring while gallente has higher top speed? Isn't that how balance works? There is no rant, just trying to paint a picture on how certain things are being perceived. This doesn't resemble what you posted in the sligthest, it was an accusative rant, and there's no mistaking it. And quit trying to logic, you suck at it, a buff to gallente does not automatically mean caldari were nerfed. So if you buffed every suit in the game save the heavy suit, this would not be a heavy nerf? Go back to school No, in fact it would not, a nerf is a reduction, unless the heavy suit was in fact reduced in some fashion, then it is not a nerf. Are you unfamiliar with meaning and cause/effect? The effect would be the reduction in viability of the heavy suit comparatively to other suits, thus a nerf, Imagine all suits get triple the base ehp other than the heavy. Focus really hard and understand. This would be a heavy nerf. Go back to school I'm not interested in debating with someone that doesn't understand and won't stay on the OP's topic, troll away you will be taking to a wall.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 892	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:28:00 - [32] - Quote In response to Tesfa: When thinking about slayer logis, don't forget assault's higher base hp (much more than back in slayer logi days), stamina and regen. Also don't forget that sidearms are both much better and much more important than they were in slayer logi days. I do think you have a point about slowing assaults down too much. Perhaps putting their speed below that of current logis is going a bit far in one go.
Oswald Rehnquist 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:31:00 - [33] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Doc DDD wrote: Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks... 8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply. Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV. Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance? How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo. ...What? Did you notice the other part? Nerf stamina? I want Gallente to be what they are supposed to be, quick sprinters, terrible long distance runners. Would this then reduce gallente ehp due to their faster speed? Essentially I am wondering if stamina is or isn't included in this ratio. I like what is suggested if only to make suits more distinct, I'm just cautious as extraneous balancing factors than simple trading of stats, because synergy is extremely important in these matters, and not all of the bonuses trade of equally for each role. A fast walking speed is incredible powerful as you have the freedom to act as oppose to sprinting where you have to finish the act of sprinting, how that translates in Eve vs Dust may be slightly different. As another pointed out, what does a boat load of stamina for the slow amarr if min are the best sprinters and best at stamina regen, meaning they truly get more out of their stamina for jumps and running. Not that having boat loads of stamina is bad, but clearly there are diminishing returns for poorly synced stats. Also curious on what your thoughts on what should happen to the other suits as it pertains to ehp and speed. The caldari + shields are the biggest offenders here as high shield values don't exist in dust. It was originally shields= Low EHP+fast vs armor= High EHP+slow. This specific distinction was created back when amarr also had even slot layouts. So clearly we are looking to break that model. By buffing gallente speeds we then have a speed hierarchy closely related to eve with Min, gal, cal, ama in that order. Shield currently fit the min them with low ehp and fast but clearly doesn't fit the caldari them of slower shield tanks. Another kicker is that we have light armor (ferros, reactive) and heavy armor (plates), while we only have one shield module to share between the fastest suits (min) and the second slowest suits (cal). Essentially the armor vs shield conflict is very much a part of this normalization. Below 28 dB
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:31:00 - [34] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: The effect would be the reduction in viability of the heavy suit comparatively to other suits, thus a nerf, Imagine all suits get triple the base ehp other than the heavy. Focus really hard and understand. This would be a heavy nerf. Go back to school I'm not interested in debating with someone that doesn't understand and won't stay on the OP's topic, troll away you will be taking to a wall. you're touting your opinions as facts. again. You have a different philosophical bent and I disagree with your premise. I am allowed to disagree with you and am perfectly within my rights to not be dissuaded by flimsy logic. Either find a better premise, or shut up. Either way you telling me to go back to school is bluntly childish, and you're getting mad because I think you're wrong. Which, objectively, you are. So please, try using evidence to back your claims rather than blanket statements. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:34:00 - [35] - Quote if Gallente becomes the bat out of hell I would severely nerf their stamina regent severely in a manner most serious. CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:39:00 - [36] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: if Gallente becomes the bat out of hell I would severely nerf their stamina regent severely in a manner most serious. that was part of the original suggestion WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:41:00 - [37] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Okay this may seem a bit ranty, but its just my observations, no dev bashing here. I'm all for across the board consistency. Here the assaults suits are getting a really big nerf. From what i can tell from the picture, logis get 0.25 m/s buff, the assault suits roughly 0.5 m/s speed nerf, commandos .35 roughly speed buff. The Min Assault will be as fast the current Min Logi. Caldari and Gallente as slow as the current Amarr logi. And that is really, really slow. The Amarr assaults are gettin the speed of current heavy suits. Oh wow. Thats a little too much Mr. Rattati. In a Foot race, post changes, guessing roughly of course. 1. Min scout 5.7 m/s 2. Gal Scout Caldari Scout 5.4 m/s 3. Amarr scout, Min Logi 5.25 m/s 4. Gal Logi, Caldari Logi, Min Basic 5 m/s 5. Min Assult 4.85 m/s 6. Amarr Logi, Gallente basic, Caldari Basic 4.75 m/s 7. Gallente Assult, Caldari Assault, Amarr Basic, Minmatar commando 4.6 m/s 8. Amarr assault, Caldari Commando, Gallente Commando, Min heavy basic 4.4 m/s 10. Minmatar Setinel 4.25 m/s 11. Amarr commando, caldari heavy, gallente heavy 4.2 m/s 12.Caldari setinel, gellente setinel 3.9 m/s 13. Amarr heavy 4.85 m/s 14. Amarr setinel 3.6 m/s With the planned tiericide, I confidently predict the return of the slayer Logi. Identical slots, more fitting space, and now faster than the assault suits. After all, the Min Logi will have a 4/4/4 slot layout at all tiers, and is getting the min assaut speed. Fit militia equipment to free up fitting space and the ADV min logi becomes the current Proto Min Assault. You can apply the same logic to the other assaults with dare i say it, lackluster bonuses. A cal logi with 5/3/3 slots or a slower caldari assault that can reload. Gal logi with extra fitting space or a slow gal assault that has less dispersion? And the Amarr assult....well might as well run a commando or heavy suit instead, more HP and more fire power, and identical if not faster speeds. I can't wait for the forums will begin to erupt about the min logi's s hit box detection, etc etc. Pretty much every thing they spull out of thier butts about the min assault witll be applied to the min Logi. Suggetion: Tighten up the assault speeds. Start the minmatar at 5.1 m.s, Gal calari at 4.9 and end with the Amarr at 4.6 m/s Slightly slower than thier respective racial logis, but certainly faster then comandos. I appreciate the thought, but there is a reason I am trying to move away from "feelings" and more to math and facts. The design needs to make sense, and players trade speed for tank, that's why dropsuits need to fit on the curve. If you don't want less speed, then the only way is less tank, but we already buffed tank for a reason and I don't want to change that. Speed has never been normalized properly before, and it needs to be done on a stable foundation, i.e. the speed/ehp curve. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:41:00 - [38] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: if Gallente becomes the bat out of hell I would severely nerf their stamina regent severely in a manner most serious. that was part of the original suggestion not saying anything about the stamina pool i mean it could be a reasonable sized one just it take forever to come back. CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:42:00 - [39] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: if Gallente becomes the bat out of hell I would severely nerf their stamina regent severely in a manner most serious. that was part of the original suggestion not saying anything about the stamina pool i mean it could be a reasonable sized one just it take forever to come back. gallente already regen stamina ass-slow dude. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Kaughst Nyain San 825	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:48:00 - [40] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: A simulation of that in DUST would be like giving Gallente same or better sprint speed than Minmatar, but nerfing the stamina so it can only be used in short bursts. Logged on the Big Board \o/ Amarr meanwhile would just have stupid amounts of stamina while being slow. Haven't down the thread, but wouldn't it be logical at that point to make armor plates reduce stam. "Remember: no matter the circumstances, there will always be people willing to push you down a hole."

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:49:00 - [41] - Quote Kaughst wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: A simulation of that in DUST would be like giving Gallente same or better sprint speed than Minmatar, but nerfing the stamina so it can only be used in short bursts. Logged on the Big Board \o/ Amarr meanwhile would just have stupid amounts of stamina while being slow. Haven't down the thread, but wouldn't it be logical at that point to make armor plates reduce stam. only if you remove the speed penalty. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Oswald Rehnquist 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 11:01:00 - [42] - Quote Kaughst wrote: Haven't down the thread, but wouldn't it be logical at that point to make armor plates reduce stam. That would be backwards actually, if its a %, those with the least amount of stamina would be effected the least, while those with the most stamina would be effected the most. Breakin Stuff wrote: No, in fact it would not, a nerf is a reduction, unless the heavy suit was in fact reduced in some fashion, then it is not a nerf. Are you unfamiliar with meaning and cause/effect? I will probably regret responding here, but only because this irked me back in closed beta when discussing balance, no hostilities intended or taking of sides, just counteracting this one very specific line of thought. Everything is relative, when we say heavies have high ehp, its in comparison to everything else, its that they have high ehp compared to the other suits. What is 5000 if not just a number? Compare that to 100 or to 4000 and the relationships they share with the original number of 5000 changes dramatically. The concept of balance is understanding these relationships, and the overall modifying of relationships can either take on the form of modifying one item or modifying everything else. Nerf or buff labels are applied to the outlier or target of which the relationship changes were intended to impact. Below 28 dB
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.27 11:03:00 - [43] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Kaughst wrote: Haven't down the thread, but wouldn't it be logical at that point to make armor plates reduce stam. That would be backwards actually, if its a %, those with the least amount of stamina would be effected the least, while those with the most stamina would be effected the most. Breakin Stuff wrote: No, in fact it would not, a nerf is a reduction, unless the heavy suit was in fact reduced in some fashion, then it is not a nerf. Are you unfamiliar with meaning and cause/effect? I will probably regret responding here, but only because this irked me back in closed beta when discussing balance, no hostilities intended or taking of sides, just counteracting this one very specific line of thought. Everything is relative, when we say heavies have high ehp, its in comparison to everything else, its that they have high ehp compared to the other suits. What is 5000 if not just a number? Compare that to 100 or to 4000 and the relationships they share with the original number of 5000 changes dramatically. The concept of balance is understanding these relationships, and the overall modifying of relationships can either take on the form modifying one item or modifying everything else. Nerf or buff labels are applied to the outlier or target of which the relationship changes were intended to impact. that's rebalancing, not nerfing. Nerfing is a term used to indicate a deliberate reduction in efficacy. I am not wrong. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 11:26:00 - [44] - Quote Kaughst wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: A simulation of that in DUST would be like giving Gallente same or better sprint speed than Minmatar, but nerfing the stamina so it can only be used in short bursts. Logged on the Big Board \o/ Amarr meanwhile would just have stupid amounts of stamina while being slow. Haven't down the thread, but wouldn't it be logical at that point to make armor plates reduce stam. interesting.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 11:39:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I appreciate the thought, but there is a reason I am trying to move away from "feelings" and more to math and facts. The design needs to make sense, and players trade speed for tank, that's why dropsuits need to fit on the curve. If you don't want less speed, then the only way is less tank, but we already buffed tank for a reason and I don't want to change that. Speed has never been normalized properly before, and it needs to be done on a stable foundation, i.e. the speed/ehp curve. True, and i'm not knocking the logic of what your putting together. As I understand it, you want the fastest member of one class to be at the same speed as the slowest member of the next class, because each class has higher potential eHP. Fastest medium = slowest light suit Fastest heavy suit = Slowest medium suit. Overall its pretty decent with the exception of the Amarr Assault. A Assault has roughly 200 more ehp than the Amarr logi bout half a meter slower. GA and CA commandos with 200 more base eHP will be same speed as A. Assault. Min commando with roughly 170 more eHP will be faster than A.Assault. So instead of a smooth curve, theres a big dip for the A. Assaults and a spike for the commandos. I'm suggestion this can be smoothed out by slightly increasing the proposed speed changes for the assault class, and slight decrease for the commando changes. Not by much, just by 0.5 meter in either direction. The fastest heavy suits is the Min commando, and the Amarr assault being the slowest medium suit, thier speeds should be roughly the same. Then you have a smooth balanced curve of speed and eHP. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:00:00 - [46] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I appreciate the thought, but there is a reason I am trying to move away from "feelings" and more to math and facts. The design needs to make sense, and players trade speed for tank, that's why dropsuits need to fit on the curve. If you don't want less speed, then the only way is less tank, but we already buffed tank for a reason and I don't want to change that. Speed has never been normalized properly before, and it needs to be done on a stable foundation, i.e. the speed/ehp curve. True, and i'm not knocking the logic of what your putting together. As I understand it, you want the fastest member of one class to be at the same speed as the slowest member of the next class, because each class has higher potential eHP. Fastest medium = slowest light suit Fastest heavy suit = Slowest medium suit. Overall its pretty decent with the exception of the Amarr Assault. A Assault has roughly 200 more ehp than the Amarr logi bout half a meter slower. GA and CA commandos with 200 more base eHP will be same speed as A. Assault. Min commando with roughly 170 more eHP will be faster than A.Assault. So instead of a smooth curve, theres a big dip for the A. Assaults and a spike for the commandos. I'm suggestion this can be smoothed out by slightly increasing the proposed speed changes for the assault class, and slight decrease for the commando changes. Not by much, just by 0.5 meter in either direction. The fastest heavy suits is the Min commando, and the Amarr assault being the slowest medium suit, thier speeds should be roughly the same. Then you have a smooth balanced curve of speed and eHP. That's not necessary actually, it just works out that way because such a system is linear as well. Instead, the suits have been placed on the curve, so as to give that impression, and because it is intuitive, to a degree. But you can also place a dropsuit on the curve without it fitting on the "max X = min Y", and it will still be normalized. Also, you have to take the brick fit into account. If you do that, you actully see that commandos are still below a fictional line through the data set, and assault above, etc, indicating the strengths and weaknesses of each role. Of course you don't need to brick, so everyone should be able to find an acceptable niche for his/her playstyle. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:00:00 - [47] - Quote The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:03:00 - [48] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 370	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:06:00 - [49] - Quote So focusing solely on the topic at hand, I'd in general say this seems to be largely good. Putting suits on an inverse relationship of speed & EHP is interesting, and I've long been in favor of making all the suits faster (fighting is fun, walking to the fight not so much). That said though, Kev posted this: Kevall Longstride wrote: Good changes and the beginnings of some real differentials between the logi and the Commando roles. The meta of the game at the moment is too geared to slayers at the moment and the logibro's in particular are taking a hit in their gameplay at the moment. I've been thinking my Galmando could do with an extra slot as well, either low for extra armour rep or high for extra agility. This is just the beginning of some love towards these two classes so post your thoughts here guys. (Underline mine.) So with a request for general input out there, I'll offer what I have: So this is going to sound moronic, but honestly my thoughts on how to help Logis fulfill the Support role starts with buffing the Assaults ability to Slay. Way back in the day, Slayer-Logi was a huge problem. We asked "Why are Slayer players using the Logi?" We answered that question by nerfing the heck outta Logis' HP, speed and fitting. One thing we never asked though was "Why are Slayer players not using Assaults?" The core of the problem is that to a Slayer's eyes Logi and Assault suits are very similar. The extra equipment slots are nice, but that player mainly chooses based on ability to project DPS and tank/avoid damage. We've always had this underlying issue where Assaults don't do anything special. Scouts are fast, sneaky and can turn invisible. Logi's have a vast array of equipment and the buffs to make them sing. Sentinels are hyper tanky and are the only ones who can wield special fist-of-god weaponry. What do Assaults do? They kinda have a nice middle-ground on base stats. :\ Since Assaults only claim to fame is that stat middle-ground, it blocks our ability to fix other classes if the fix pushes them into the Assaults' stat territory. Support focused players have been clamoring for literal years now for the speed to keep up with their squad, and the eHP to sustain flak while trying to heal a teammate who's under fire. We haven't been able to give it to them because of a fear of returning to the days of the Slayer-Logi. Buffing Assault's ability to Slay gives us the freedom to buff the Logi's ability to support. There are a couple options available to us. Maybe grant the Assault unique buffs to being in a squad (the main slaying unit of any team), or perhaps add new combat-focused equipment or mods only Assaults can use. My suggestion though? Give Assaults the ability to carry two Light weapons. Yes, this encroaches massively on Commandos. I will address that later. Ignore the Commando thing for the moment, and look at what this will allow us to do. -Gives us the freedom to properly buff Logis without making them the preferred Slayer suit. -Makes Assault gameplay more interesting by enabling players to really think on the fly about what weapon to use in an ever changing battlefield. -Weapons' strong-against/weak-against shield/armor ratings will finally mean something because players can now adjust to their opponent's tank. -Let's Assault players have more compelling fitting choices. -The present Assault bonus to fitting cost for weaponry starts to make sense. -Gives our primary combat suit a presumed parity with other FPS game standards. -As has been pointed out elsewhere by others (in particular, our esteemed Pokey) this will finally make vehicles feel dangerous and satisfying. Presently vehicle players bring a million ISK, steel death-machine to bear; only to then be popped by one small infantry dude with the vehicle kryptonite. If we nerf the DPS of AV weapons while also increasing their battlefield saturation by letting Slayer characters carry them as backup, the end result is a vehicle will on average sustain the same DPS as before, but now is tanking half a squad. That feels bad-ass for the pilot/tanker while also not leaving the AV players utterly defenseless when enemy infantry shows up. Giving Assaults two Light weapons would ideally fix tons of problems with the game, while also letting us push Logis into the speed & eHP territory they need to really fulfill their role as in-the-trenches support. [Commandos below]
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:06:00 - [50] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I am not worried about killer bees. Famous last words. @Ripley_Riley "I NEED NO PILLS I'M A FUCKING GOAT!" - Cat Merc

Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 370	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:07:00 - [51] - Quote I mentioned before I would address Commandos, and I'll be honest, I don't have a solution that I'm confident is the right one. My short answer here is to encourage us to ask the dedicated Commando players what they want. That said though, I am in a position where I'm obliged to attempt an answer. Commandos have an interesting issue where a role was never defined for them and instead were built out of an interesting set of stats. A tool given to the players for them to invent uses for. If we look at how players have used the suit, I'd say two main Roles appear: "Area denial." "Powerful AV" If we back away from the perspective of Roles, and instead look at playstyles, we get this: "Feeling powerful and dangerous. If I look at someone, they die." "Independence / lone wolf / squad in a suit" So buffing any of those roles/playstyles will help push the Commando into it's own unique space. - Say, giving them innate ammo regeneration or just more carried ammo would help with Area Denial and Independence. - A straight buff to AV damage (which I know has been discussed before) would aid the Powerful AV role (especially in a world where AV is nerfed as mentioned above). - Substantially increasing scan range would help with target acquisition, and thus strengthen all four of the roles/styles. - Or maybe even the blatant buff of just giving 'em one more Light weapon for a total of 3.
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:11:00 - [52] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Coolio. Have you considered forcing all equipment slots to be filled to make a valid fit? Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:20:00 - [53] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Coolio. Have you considered forcing all equipment slots to be filled to make a valid fit? I have, but that will be a later part when I am balancing the same powercore for assaults and logistics. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:39:00 - [54] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: Giving Assaults two Light weapons would ideally fix tons of problems with the game, while also letting us push Logis into the speed & eHP territory they need to really fulfill their role as in-the-trenches support. [Commandos below] Instead of 2 light weapons, what if Assaults received half the damage bonus as Commandos? 1% to racial light weapons per level? Assaults will still be able to tank more than a Logi, even after the buffs go live. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:44:00 - [55] - Quote I'm also concerned about killer bees. What makes something viable for killing people? ehp, dps and speed. If Logis and Assaults are on the same ehp-speed ratio and can equip the same weapons, then they are - in absence of other factors and under the assumption of proper balancing - by definition equally effective at killing stuff. So whether Killer-Logis become a thing depends on those other factors mentioned above. If the bonus to being a Logi (unlimited nanohives, reps and needles for the whole squad!) is more useful than the bonus of being an Assault (+25% reload speed to railrifles? ) then people will start using Logis for their main killing work. I assume Rattati knows this. Two other topics: - Have you considered flattening the exchange-ratio of speed and ehp for racial suits (e.g. Min and Amarr)? In your "base"-graphs all Min suits are above the imaginary line and all Amarr suits are below it. This indicates a (minor) difference in utility (which is counteracted by the awesomeness of the ScR for the Assault and the awesomeness of the resistance bonus for the Sentinel, but leads to the lack of use of Amarr Scouts). - Many awesome things can be done with stamina, stamina regen, walking and sprinting speed. All of them helpful to improve gameplay and variety. Would you like to have a big discussion on these topics at some point? Really quick qualitative design without any interaction with ehp (for simplicity): Amarr: Walk slow, sprint slow, lots of stamina, regenerate slow Caldari: Walk fast, sprint slow, few stamina, regenerate slow Gallente: Walk slow, sprint fast, few stamina, regenerate fast Minmatar: Walk fast, sprint fast, lots of stamina, regenerate fast This breaks some Eve conventions, but each of these is associated with a distinct fighting style. There's a lot to be discussed here.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 620	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:45:00 - [56] - Quote The assault speed nerf is going to be annoying, you already can't put a plate on an Amarr assault if you expect to be able to jump the smallest barriers So, can we either increase base jump height or increase all suits speed whilst moving to this curve? Also, I'm not convinced that logis should follow the curve, they're not combat focused roles so why would they have an equal trade off of speed/ehp versus the combat focused assault? ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:45:00 - [57] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: [quote=Celus Ivara] Giving Assaults two Light weapons would ideally fix tons of problems with the game, while also letting us push Logis into the speed & eHP territory they need to really fulfill their role as in-the-trenches support. [Commandos below] Instead of 2 light weapons, what if Assaults received half the damage bonus as Commandos? 1% to racial light weapons per level? Or a good time to update GA and CA Assault bonuses? GA: Hipfire Dispersion ---> Rate of Fire CA: Reload Speed ---> Kick Reduction while ADS Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:50:00 - [58] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: That's not necessary actually, it just works out that way because such a system is linear as well. Instead, the suits have been placed on the curve, so as to give that impression, and because it is intuitive, to a degree. But you can also place a dropsuit on the curve without it fitting on the "max X = min Y", and it will still be normalized. Also, you have to take the brick fit into account. If you do that, you actully see that commandos are still below a fictional line through the data set, and assault above, etc, indicating the strengths and weaknesses of each role. Of course you don't need to brick, so everyone should be able to find an acceptable niche for his/her playstyle. The brick fit may come into play after you implement another slot on commandos. As of now, the heaviest possible bricked Cal commandos will be faster than any tier Amarr Assault with two plates on it because calmandos only have 1 low slot. A max bricked Minando will be faster than any Amarr Assault with 2 identical plates, because proto minandos have two low slots. Other wise any adv/standard minando will be faster than any tier Amarr suit with 2 plates. Proto Galmando with three low slots bricked may be on par via speed with an Amarr assault that dedicates 3 slots to eHP but have superior reps. ADV galmando will be faster than any amarr assault Unbricked amarr assaults will certainly be slower than max bricked adv/standard commandos, and most likeley be slower than two max bricked proto commandos. IMO its bit unbalanced, especially for a race thats supposed to stack HP. I can tell that i'm gettin a bit too back-and-forth with this. Delving into hypothertical situations a bit much. Feedback doesn't mean debating your work. Concerning assaults i got some faith in ya. It will just need a comparision with your brick tanked chart. See how fast each suit can move tanked, and then polish of any edges. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 370	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:55:00 - [59] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: Giving Assaults two Light weapons would ideally fix tons of problems with the game, while also letting us push Logis into the speed & eHP territory they need to really fulfill their role as in-the-trenches support. [Commandos below] Instead of 2 light weapons, what if Assaults received half the damage bonus as Commandos? 1% to racial light weapons per level? Assaults will still be able to tank more than a Logi, even after the buffs go live. As far as pushing Slayers away from Logis and into Assaults, that would help. Basically the inverse of the old solution of having Logis do less damage with their weapons (which feels unintuitive and people in general hated being hobbled like that). My lament though would be we wouldn't gain any of the other benefits of Assaults having 2 Lights.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 13:17:00 - [60] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: That's not necessary actually, it just works out that way because such a system is linear as well. Instead, the suits have been placed on the curve, so as to give that impression, and because it is intuitive, to a degree. But you can also place a dropsuit on the curve without it fitting on the "max X = min Y", and it will still be normalized. Also, you have to take the brick fit into account. If you do that, you actully see that commandos are still below a fictional line through the data set, and assault above, etc, indicating the strengths and weaknesses of each role. Of course you don't need to brick, so everyone should be able to find an acceptable niche for his/her playstyle. The brick fit may come into play after you implement another slot on commandos. As of now, the heaviest possible bricked Cal commandos will be faster than any tier Amarr Assault with two plates on it because calmandos only have 1 low slot. A max bricked Minando will be faster than any Amarr Assault with 2 identical plates, because proto minandos have two low slots. Other wise any adv/standard minando will be faster than any tier Amarr suit with 2 plates. Proto Galmando with three low slots bricked may be on par via speed with an Amarr assault that dedicates 3 slots to eHP but have superior reps. ADV galmando will be faster than any amarr assault Unbricked amarr assaults will certainly be slower than max bricked adv/standard commandos, and most likeley be slower than two max bricked proto commandos. IMO its bit unbalanced, especially for a race thats supposed to stack HP. I can tell that i'm gettin a bit too back-and-forth with this. Delving into hypothertical situations a bit much. Feedback doesn't mean debating your work. Concerning assaults i got some faith in ya. It will just need a comparision with your brick tanked chart. See how fast each suit can move tanked, and then polish of any edges. I already factored in the extra slot on the brick picture . I am actually thinking about asking protofits for assistance again, as that was amazing with the HAVs. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 13:20:00 - [61] - Quote Rattati, just saying, after Fanfest 2014 I said I wouldn't spend another dime on CCP again. Since you've got on board I've spent almost close to $100 if not more. Good show ol chap. Sgt Kirk's Gallente Propaganda Youtube Channel
Brush Master KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 13:30:00 - [62] - Quote logi speed increase, about dam time Dust Veteran. June 2012 - ? True Logi. Flying DS from the start. @dustreports
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 744	Posted - 2015.05.27 13:37:00 - [63] - Quote Well. This is interesting. Some thoughts: Slow speed will make the shotgun assault fits pretty much useless, this may or may not be a good thing depending on how you feel about shotgun assaults. Concern about killer bees activated. Heres what Im going to do if this change goes live: Delete my shotgun min assault fit. Create Min Logi fit: Add shotgun Add the exact same module layout (x4 adv extenders, x1 regulator, x1 damp, x2 kincat) Add core locus grenade Add remote explosive Add nanohive Add uplinks Add injector I lose my bolt pistol sidearm but now have better scanning, 4 times the equipment, and slightly less hp, I'd say its a wash. Also Im concerned that the amar logi will now be a much more attractive option for slaying than the Cal/Gal assaults. The Cal/Gal assaults have pretty **** poor weapon bonuses as is, so its not much of a sacrifice to drop those and get +2 equipment slots in return, and all you have to do to make up for most of the HP loss is lowball one or two equipment slots, in return you get (for example) a nanohive PLUS a crappy nanite injector and good uplinks + the amar logi uplink bonus. I am happy to see talk of an extra module slot for commandos though (please consider giving Cal Commando better base shield regen and all commandos a bit better native armor repair as well). Edit to add: amar assault may be too slow to be effective after scrambler rebalancing, but who knows
Sleepy Shadow Qualified Scrub 372	Posted - 2015.05.27 14:00:00 - [64] - Quote IGÇÖm having difficulties in understanding the point of this assault nerf. Assault is the main role in any FPS and people will use whichever suit that gives them their best chance at succeeding in that role. WeGÇÖve seen this several times already; slayer logis, slayer scouts and an overabundance of heavies. You cannot make people stick to a role specific suit if that suit is overshadowed by another one. Currently weGÇÖre experiencing a great number of Minmitar assaults and we all know the reason for that. The speed nerf on that graph is much too drastic. The current Amarr assault is already slow; IGÇÖm dreading to think what all other assaults will be after they are all slower than the current Amarr assault. Well except the Minmitar that will be barely faster than the current Amarr. I havenGÇÖt used basic plates outside pure BPO fits since the speed nerf and I donGÇÖt see a lot of people using them either. So this is not a real fix to brick tanking as people will continue to have the same HP as they had before, only now they are slow. For an assault, you have to sacrifice a low slot to gain speed and once you do that, youGÇÖre better off using the logi or the scout for your assaulting business. My Gallente assault has 5 low slots, my Amarr logi 4; why waste a low slot when I can just use my logi with two additional equipment slots? Because the Gallente assault has a great bonus to its racial weapons? Yeah, noGÇª I am not saying that logis donGÇÖt deserve a buff, they do, but they have no reason to be faster than their squad. You should have given them the same speed as their assault counterpart; there is no reason to nerf assaults. Not this drastically anyway. Speed is very important in this game and I fear this change will make assaults change to other suits. I already checked protofits and I can almost guarantee that I will do just that. =ƒÿ¦
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 14:29:00 - [65] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Coolio. Have you considered forcing all equipment slots to be filled to make a valid fit? I have, but that will be a later part when I am balancing the same powercore for assaults and logistics. The key to avoiding the issue is to make the fitting reduction bonus on the Logistics significantly higher and then reducing the overall resources. This way fitting equipment is very 'cheap' but refusal to fit equipment does not free up many resources to spend on additional defenses. Since you're going to be touching on resources anyways for Logistics with the change in slots, this is the prime opportunity to address this issue. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 5	Posted - 2015.05.27 14:33:00 - [66] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: While you're at it, mind fixing the Gallente speed being the same as Caldari? Gallente are supposed to be very fast for short bursts of speed (MWD eating capacitor). We could simulate that by giving Gallente similar sprint speed to Minmatar, but very bad stamina. Would help the Duvolle too, in the whole "get close and rekt" part. Which speeds aren't aligned? I didn't notice, they are always supposed to be the same as CA. No, I'm talking EVE. Gallente are second fastest after Minmatar, Caldari are slowest until Amarr plate up. Gallente use Micro Warp Drives to close the distance and apply massive shredding from their Blasters. (Ga Ass charging with a Duvolle or Shotgun) Micro Warp Drive eats capacitor like crazy, and as such has to be used in bursts, not always on. A simulation of that in DUST would be like giving Gallente same or better sprint speed than Minmatar, but nerfing the stamina so it can only be used in short bursts. The fact that it isn't like that could be contributing to the AR's underperformance, as the best suit to use the AR on is in fact the Minmatar Assault for its speed. But since it gets a bonus for CR's, it's a waste to put on an AR. So make the worst suit even worse? The only assault needing fixed was min, But instead all assaults get nerfed? Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3	Posted - 2015.05.27 14:35:00 - [67] - Quote When you talk about adjusting movement speeds in this game, I still think the long-term solution is to create a mass stat. Speed, strafe speed, sprint speed, stamina depletion rates and jump height would be derived from formulas based on mass (these values would be calculated in the fitting screen and cached so it's not affecting gameplay performance). You could add racial modifiers in these calculations as well to tweak balance. This more-closely models EVE's mechanics, and would give you the consistency in speed/HP that you're looking for. Putting plates on a scout suit will add a much higher mass (as a percent) than putting those same plates on a sentinel (as a percent). Best PvE idea ever!
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 894	Posted - 2015.05.27 14:49:00 - [68] - Quote The more I look at this, the more it seems a bit too much. I like idea in principle, but the assault suit speed nerf seems too much. Tone it down a bit and I think it would be fine. Whilst I admire and agree with the scientific approach, and it can often be very successful, the relationship between suit hp and speed has too many additional factors involved to come up with a very neat relationship curve. Bringing things closer to a logical relationship is good, but you can't adhere to it too strictly.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 14:55:00 - [69] - Quote As long as my Logistics doesn't become a better slayer than my Assault, that's all I'm concerned about. Though, looking at these changes... I'm starting to wonder. Here's my thoughts: Gallente Logi does have less EHP, sure, but with heightened mobility to what Assault speeds are now, and having better fitting/more slots... I'm tempted just to make up the difference by adding another plate with the PG/CPU I save from my equipment and just nyxxing an equipment to make up for it. This will result in similar performance both in terms of EHP and mobility to my Assault, trading the sidearm for more utility (equipment/slot count). The bonus that Assaults get to weapon fitting is negated by the fact that I don't have to fit a sidearm on my logi, the Gallente Assault bonus is largely a placebo anyhow. Won't really know until we get in game but I have a feeling that my Gal Logi will likely outright replace my Gal Assault. EDIT: IMO, mobility is king for Assaults. The only one that was really a problem was Minmatar Assaults because they were basically just 'heavy scouts' with incredible versatility in fitting. Reducing the speed on the others (Especially for the Gallente/Caldari) is going to have extreme effects on their performance and they're already sort of ailing in the larger scheme of things. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Red OfDust Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 144	Posted - 2015.05.27 15:40:00 - [70] - Quote So instead of nerfing the assault suits and buffing all the other, why dont just buff the other suits? Its true that the min assault needs a close look, but that speed nerf is just too high. I realy like to use suits beside of how they are supposed to be used; scout with rifle, shotgun assault, logi scout, full kin-kat heavy, hacking logi, etc. I prefer some suits than other because they are versatile and allow you to make that kind of combinations. If that kind of changes still happen, every creative suit is going to dissapear and the game is going to be boring because of the same fits. Sorry for bad english.

demens grimwulff Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 370	Posted - 2015.05.27 15:40:00 - [71] - Quote Oooook... I guess we will all be respec'ing logi then... My problem is this... I do NOT run dual tanked suits, but I am getting a nerf because some people do. Amarr assaults don't run dual tank either... typically they fill the high slots with damage mods and then stack reactive and armor reps... same with gallente. So then... I see this as a buff to the armor meta and a nerf to min and cal assaults. Honestly, though, Rattati, wouldn't you find it more "fair and leveling" to make the armor plates more synergistic in their effect? as of right now, each plate is treated as a separate entity and the decrease in total movement speed is not compounded. Someone can stack 3 reactives and will only miss 3% of their total run speed, which is laughable. Why don't you make it follow a curve? 1% for the first, 3% for the second, 7% for the third, etc? That would make much more sense, and it would allow the shield purists a bone to gnaw at... albeit, a bone with nothing left on it. Essentially, if we're discussing power consumption over time, 200 lbs requires twice the force as 100 lbs... 400 lbs takes four times the force (for all of those who missed high school physics, Force = mass * acceleration; and I understand a pound is a measurement of weight ant not mass...). So, considering the increasing taxation on energy requirements, a small, linearly stacking decrease isn't enough... it should follow a curve, and so that if you stack multiple plates of any type, you face the hidden curve. Armor tanking has been the meta since 1.06... it finally needs real alignment (not just the suits), and shields do need a buff, as they are, currently, to high risk in a game that promotes stacking eHP. Please note: grammar and spelling may be off due to posting onmy phone... As the archeology of our thought easily shows, man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing its end
Cody Sietz Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 15:50:00 - [72] - Quote Rise of Logi xD "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:04:00 - [73] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: That's not necessary actually, it just works out that way because such a system is linear as well. Instead, the suits have been placed on the curve, so as to give that impression, and because it is intuitive, to a degree. But you can also place a dropsuit on the curve without it fitting on the "max X = min Y", and it will still be normalized. Also, you have to take the brick fit into account. If you do that, you actully see that commandos are still below a fictional line through the data set, and assault above, etc, indicating the strengths and weaknesses of each role. Of course you don't need to brick, so everyone should be able to find an acceptable niche for his/her playstyle. This is VERY WELL SAID. Thank you Rattati. And at people who are freaking out over the idea of Gallente getting a speed up and stamina down: HE SAID HE WOULD PUT IT ON THE BIG BOARD. It just means he's going to save the idea for later analysis. Have you SEEN the big board?? It -literally- means nothing more than he think it's "neat" and worth a second look. It's stuff like this that makes Rattati go silent for weeks because these forums can't get a grip. I'm seriously disappointed. (But not surprised.) Know what cannot be known.
Sleepy Shadow Qualified Scrub 373	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:05:00 - [74] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Also Im concerned that the amar logi will now be a much more attractive option for slaying than the Cal/Gal assaults. The Cal/Gal assaults have pretty **** poor weapon bonuses as is, so its not much of a sacrifice to drop those and get +2 equipment slots in return, and all you have to do to make up for most of the HP loss is lowball one or two equipment slots, in return you get (for example) a nanohive PLUS a crappy nanite injector and good uplinks + the amar logi uplink bonus. Because I donGÇÖt brick tank my suits I donGÇÖt really lose anything by changing to the Amarr logi from my Gallente assault. I checked from protofits and I can have a neat Amarr logi with 230 shield, 510 armour (my Gal usually goes with 194/509), PRO AR/ADV SMG/Basic flux, PRO needle, PRO hive and remotes. By changing equipment I can have a better sidearm, grenade or HP if I wish, but to be honest, I have no need. The logi also has better scan range and hacking speed not to mention the additional WP IGÇÖll be having by reviving and booby trapping places. I feel so sorry for the Caldari assault though. Slow as feck but if you want speed you lose the ability to fit regulators and other useful modules. My Caldari assault runs two regulators and usually stamina or possibly a ferro in the lows. After this change, kincat is almost mandatory to be able to use it. Caldari is a distance fighter, real nice that an Amarr logi can close the distance before you turn : / I have no idea how Rattati thinks nerfing assault speed this drastically wonGÇÖt make people change to other suits. =ƒÿ¦
thehellisgoingon MONSTER SYNERGY 487	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:07:00 - [75] - Quote Nice. A buff to Logibro's everywhere. I don't mind. Time to dust off my templar logistics. Throw on a toxin smg with my 3 second links.
Kierkegaard Soren Eridani Light Horse Battalion 824	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:08:00 - [76] - Quote Thanks so much for the speed and slot buff for commandos. Loving it. Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing."
alias lycan Capital Acquisitions LLC 43	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:12:00 - [77] - Quote This is a pretty dangerous thing to do as long as logis and assaults have the same slot count. I think the cal logi actually has 1 more slot than the assault. People could just copy their assault fits and improve them with the extra cpu and pg plus have the speed.
demens grimwulff Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 370	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:17:00 - [78] - Quote alias lycan wrote: This is a pretty dangerous thing to do as long as logis and assaults have the same slot count. I think the cal logi actually has 1 more slot than the assault. People could just copy their assault fits and improve them with the extra cpu and pg plus have the speed. As an old school player, I remember when 90% of all deployed suits in any match were cal logi for this very reason. Out of that came the logi nerf AND the AR nerf... as they also only used the tac ar As the archeology of our thought easily shows, man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing its end
demens grimwulff Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 370	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:18:00 - [79] - Quote On a second note... making sure all equipment slots are filled is almost useless, too... Slayer logi with 3 or 4 compact nanohives? As the archeology of our thought easily shows, man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing its end
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:21:00 - [80] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: On a second note... making sure all equipment slots are filled is almost useless, too... Slayer logi with 3 or 4 compact nanohives? Make all equipment slots mandatory + increase CPU/PG fitting bonuses for logis + reduce CPU/PG for logis = plenty of CPU/PG for equipment but not much left for brick tanking and proto weaponry. @Ripley_Riley "I NEED NO PILLS I'M A FUCKING GOAT!" - Cat Merc

Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 745	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:21:00 - [81] - Quote Sleepy Shadow wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Also Im concerned that the amar logi will now be a much more attractive option for slaying than the Cal/Gal assaults. The Cal/Gal assaults have pretty ** poor weapon bonuses as is, so its not much of a sacrifice to drop those and get +2 equipment slots in return, and all you have to do to make up for most of the HP loss is lowball one or two equipment slots, in return you get (for example) a nanohive PLUS a crappy nanite injector and good uplinks + the amar logi uplink bonus. Because I donGÇÖt brick tank my suits I donGÇÖt really lose anything by changing to the Amarr logi from my Gallente assault. I checked from protofits and I can have a neat Amarr logi with 230 shield, 510 armour (my Gal usually goes with 194/509), PRO AR/ADV SMG/Basic flux, PRO needle, PRO hive and remotes. By changing equipment I can have a better sidearm, grenade or HP if I wish, but to be honest, I have no need. The logi also has better scan range and hacking speed not to mention the additional WP IGÇÖll be having by reviving and booby trapping places. I feel so sorry for the Caldari assault though. Slow as feck but if you want speed you lose the ability to fit regulators and other useful modules. My Caldari assault runs two regulators and usually stamina or possibly a ferro in the lows. After this change, kincat is almost mandatory to be able to use it. Caldari is a distance fighter, real nice that an Amarr logi can close the distance before you turn : / I have no idea how Rattati thinks nerfing assault speed this drastically wonGÇÖt make people change to other suits. Yeah pretty much this. Amarr Logi overlaps too much with Cal/Gal assault after these changes go into effect. Caldari assault is already crap as things are today, after this its just going to be a joke. All the assaults will be too slow to be fun. This entire hp vs. speed curve seems like a red herring as far as balance is concerned. It doesnt seem to take in to account the relative usefulness of each suit beyond raw speed and HP, thats why Ive said before and I say now that I dont think balancing on this speed v. hp curve is a useful or good idea. Now you will have Logis competing with scouts in terms of speed and competing with some of the assaults in term of slaying while still providing the same vast force multiplier as before this change due to the equipment they bring to the table. Meanwhile commandos are still ** and still occupy the second lowest speed tier, and assaults are being basically pigeonholed into high HP grinding front liners because speed builds will be worthless and regen builds will be unable to control terms of engagement vs. anything but a sentinel, so they too will be worthless. I appreciate the effort but I think this one might be a mistake, but we'll see how it pans out.
demens grimwulff Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 370	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:29:00 - [82] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: On a second note... making sure all equipment slots are filled is almost useless, too... Slayer logi with 3 or 4 compact nanohives? Make all equipment slots mandatory + increase CPU/PG fitting bonuses for logis + reduce CPU/PG for logis = plenty of CPU/PG for equipment but not much left for brick tanking and proto weaponry. Sounding good, to be honest. I would like to see that + the curved impact of stacking plates As the archeology of our thought easily shows, man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing its end
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 745	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:34:00 - [83] - Quote P.S. I dont see why we just dont add some damned stacking penalties to HP modules HP values. Why are they the special snowflake? Sure they have penalties but those penalties clearly arent enough of a deterrent.
demens grimwulff Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 370	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:39:00 - [84] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: P.S. I dont see why we just dont add some damned stacking penalties to HP modules HP values. Why are they the special snowflake? Sure they have penalties but those penalties clearly arent enough of a deterrent. I would agree, but I already put my own pet horse in the race (see wall of text on page 4) that I think would work without having to drastically lower all assault movement speeds. As the archeology of our thought easily shows, man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing its end
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:00:00 - [85] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: increase CPU/PG fitting bonuses for logis What would a suitable fitting bonus be in your opinion? I think there's a tough problem here: - Too low fitting bonus: Fit 4 Compact Nanohives and use the remaining fitting space to become a killing machine. Bumping up the fitting requirement for compact nanos doesn't help. Needles actually have lower fitting requirements (Yes, I need 4 STD needles! ). - Too high fitting bonus: Equipment becomes 'Logi only' much like the Scout's cloak. That means you need a Scout or a Logi if you want to carry nanohives or scanners. This will make people try to get their slayer-role done with those suits since you can't run a KDR over 5 without nanohives. And squadplay will make people want to carry sticks and scanners, even if they want to be a slayer 95% of the time. There may be a middleground between these two extremes, but as long as the Logi is somewhat combat effective and has the added utility of many equipment slots people will use that. The incentive to use an Assault suit must be very big to counteract the disadvantage of having less equipment. This is currently the case. If the suggestion in the OP goes through it won't (unless additional factors apply).
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 894	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:43:00 - [86] - Quote I don't like the idea of increasing the logi equipment fitting bonus and reducing base cap. 25% is enough for a bonus. Any more and you are 1) being too draconian with fitting restrictions and 2) spoiling things for low sp characters, as you won't be able to fit a decent logi until you reach level 5. I just don't like it.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:46:00 - [87] - Quote I don't have math, but I do have logic. You're ignoring a huge factor when just balancing speed vs HP in regards to. If the assaults' HP is countered by the lack of speed, and vice versa for the logistics', then the these factors are balanced against each other (no net advantage or disadvantage), and thus assaults and logistics are equal when comparing net speed/HP advantages and disadvantages. If that is the case, then the logistics comes out on top because with speed and HP being balanced with the assaults, that leaves logistics with a very large advantage with no counterbalance: the 3-4 equipment slots while assaults only have 1. If the speed and HP advantages and disadvantages of assaults and logistics cancel out against each other when the 2 suit types are compared with one another, and the logistics gets a ton more equipment slots, what does the assault have to balance against that? just a sidearm? It doesn't seem fair. Sure assaults get fitting bonuses to weapons to allow for fitting better weapons, but logis get fitting bonuses to equipment, and the savings from the equipment fitting bonus can be used to equip better weapons also. In life of this, I don't think assaults should get a speed nerf. Also, assaults are meant to be the frontline fighters that rush to objectives and clear areas. Reducing speed conflicts with their intended purpose, as it makes it harder for them to rush objectives. In short, I suggest keeping assault speeds intact. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:49:00 - [88] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: With the planned tiericide, I confidently predict the return of the slayer Logi. Identical slots, more fitting space, and now faster than the assault suits. After all, the Min Logi will have a 4/4/4 slot layout at all tiers, and is getting the min assaut speed. Fit militia equipment to free up fitting space and the ADV min logi becomes the current Proto Min Assault. You can apply the same logic to the other assaults with dare i say it, lackluster bonuses. A cal logi with 5/3/3 slots or a slower caldari assault that can reload. Gal logi with extra fitting space or a slow gal assault that has less dispersion? And the Amarr assult....well might as well run a commando or heavy suit instead, more HP and more fire power, and identical if not faster speeds. Include power cores which function in fit offerings based around role so skipping the use of equipment doesn't buy you much and/or include a requirement to fit equipment on the suits. I do agree however the the racial skills need looked at, but that's true not just of both medium frames but of the commandos and possibly even the scouts. All of that is relevant of course, but iterative balance requires that it not all be done at once so we can avoid the mad swings of the beta days. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. RUST415 3	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:55:00 - [89] - Quote Just when Assault suits were the preferred suits for slayers (how it should be, IMO), now this. I suppose we'll see how it plays out, but I agree with others who have predicted dual tanked Min Logi (or Gal Logi) will now become the FoTM slayer suit. On the bright side, at least it will allow me to spend those 9m SP I've been sitting on.... And I agree with Doc that the shield/armor imbalance needs to be addressed as it is the even larger elephant in the room.
Cody Sietz Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:55:00 - [90] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't have math, but I do have logic. You're ignoring a huge factor when just balancing speed vs HP in regards to. If the assaults' HP is countered by the lack of speed, and vice versa for the logistics', then the these factors are balanced against each other (no net advantage or disadvantage), and thus assaults and logistics are equal when comparing net speed/HP advantages and disadvantages. If that is the case, then the logistics comes out on top because with speed and HP being balanced with the assaults, that leaves logistics with a very large advantage with no counterbalance: the 3-4 equipment slots while assaults only have 1. If the speed and HP advantages and disadvantages of assaults and logistics cancel out against each other when the 2 suit types are compared with one another, and the logistics gets a ton more equipment slots, what does the assault have to balance against that? just a sidearm? It doesn't seem fair. Sure assaults get fitting bonuses to weapons to allow for fitting better weapons, but logis get fitting bonuses to equipment, and the savings from the equipment fitting bonus can be used to equip better weapons also. In life of this, I don't think assaults should get a speed nerf. Also, assaults are meant to be the frontline fighters that rush to objectives and clear areas. Reducing speed conflicts with their intended purpose, as it makes it harder for them to rush objectives. In short, I suggest keeping assault speeds intact. This. Seriously, who's complaining about Logis? They farm WP and are the only suit that can function in a role that doesn't require killing. Just because you can change something doesn't always mean you should. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire

Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 745	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:56:00 - [91] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't have math, but I do have logic. You're ignoring a huge factor when just balancing speed vs HP in regards to. If the assaults' HP is countered by the lack of speed, and vice versa for the logistics', then the these factors are balanced against each other (no net advantage or disadvantage), and thus assaults and logistics are equal when comparing net speed/HP advantages and disadvantages. If that is the case, then the logistics comes out on top because with speed and HP being balanced with the assaults, that leaves logistics with a very large advantage with no counterbalance: the 3-4 equipment slots while assaults only have 1. If the speed and HP advantages and disadvantages of assaults and logistics cancel out against each other when the 2 suit types are compared with one another, and the logistics gets a ton more equipment slots, what does the assault have to balance against that? just a sidearm? It doesn't seem fair. Sure assaults get fitting bonuses to weapons to allow for fitting better weapons, but logis get fitting bonuses to equipment, and the savings from the equipment fitting bonus can be used to equip better weapons also. In life of this, I don't think assaults should get a speed nerf. Also, assaults are meant to be the frontline fighters that rush to objectives and clear areas. Reducing speed conflicts with their intended purpose, as it makes it harder for them to rush objectives. In short, I suggest keeping assault speeds intact. This. Seriously, who's complaining about Logis? They farm WP and are the only suit that can function in a role that doesn't require killing. Just because you can change something doesn't always mean you should. Agreed, I dont understand why people are trying to get logis buffed, they are there as a team support role and they are absolutely great at it as is.
hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 229	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:03:00 - [92] - Quote The cal commando needs the 1 sec shield recharge delay the sentinel has, or an extra low to fit 2 shield regulators. The shield recharge on that suit is so slow. Petition to ban the trainyard map.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 749	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:06:00 - [93] - Quote hails8n wrote: The cal commando needs the 1 sec shield recharge delay the sentinel has, or an extra low to fit 2 shield regulators. The shield recharge on that suit is so slow. Im not sure these will make enough of a difference to make cal comm viable, but certainly they need a combination of lower recharge delay and another low slot (the magnitude of the delay buff is up for debate)
hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 229	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:15:00 - [94] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: That's not necessary actually, it just works out that way because such a system is linear as well. Instead, the suits have been placed on the curve, so as to give that impression, and because it is intuitive, to a degree. But you can also place a dropsuit on the curve without it fitting on the "max X = min Y", and it will still be normalized. Also, you have to take the brick fit into account. If you do that, you actully see that commandos are still below a fictional line through the data set, and assault above, etc, indicating the strengths and weaknesses of each role. Of course you don't need to brick, so everyone should be able to find an acceptable niche for his/her playstyle. The brick fit may come into play after you implement another slot on commandos. As of now, the heaviest possible bricked Cal commandos will be faster than any tier Amarr Assault with two plates on it because calmandos only have 1 low slot. A max bricked Minando will be faster than any Amarr Assault with 2 identical plates, because proto minandos have two low slots. Other wise any adv/standard minando will be faster than any tier Amarr suit with 2 plates. Proto Galmando with three low slots bricked may be on par via speed with an Amarr assault that dedicates 3 slots to eHP but have superior reps. ADV galmando will be faster than any amarr assault Unbricked amarr assaults will certainly be slower than max bricked adv/standard commandos, and most likeley be slower than two max bricked proto commandos. IMO its bit unbalanced, especially for a race thats supposed to stack HP. I can tell that i'm gettin a bit too back-and-forth with this. Delving into hypothertical situations a bit much. Feedback doesn't mean debating your work. Concerning assaults i got some faith in ya. It will just need a comparision with your brick tanked chart. See how fast each suit can move tanked, and then polish of any edges. I already factored in the extra slot on the brick picture . I am actually thinking about asking protofits for assistance again, as that was amazing with the HAVs. So where are the slots going? As the owner of 4 proto commandos, armor commandos need an extra high-slot for fitting damage mods, and shield commandos need lows to increase survivability. Cal commandos need a better shield recharge delay. Petition to ban the trainyard map.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:26:00 - [95] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. As a CPM and thus community rep I feel it important to confirm, publicly and on the record that CCP Rattati is not a sufferer of melissophobia, unlike some poor unfortunates in our community. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:35:00 - [96] - Quote Hey Rattati, I would like something clarified. Is this movement speeds only, or are sprint speeds affected too? "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:37:00 - [97] - Quote Brush Master wrote: logi speed increase, about dam time Is your secret middle name "Tycus" CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:41:00 - [98] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Hey Rattati, I would like something clarified. Is this movement speeds only, or are sprint speeds affected too? CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. He confirmed movement, strafe, and sprint when responding to my post. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:44:00 - [99] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Hey Rattati, I would like something clarified. Is this movement speeds only, or are sprint speeds affected too? CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. He confirmed movement, strafe, and sprint when responding to my post. I see. Thanks for letting me know. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:45:00 - [100] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Well. This is interesting. Some thoughts: Slow speed will make the shotgun assault fits pretty much useless, this may or may not be a good thing depending on how you feel about shotgun assaults. Concern about killer bees activated. Heres what Im going to do if this change goes live: Delete my shotgun min assault fit. Create Min Logi fit: Add shotgun Add the exact same module layout (x4 adv extenders, x1 regulator, x1 damp, x2 kincat) Add core locus grenade Add remote explosive Add nanohive Add uplinks Add injector I lose my bolt pistol sidearm but now have better scanning, 4 times the equipment, and slightly less hp, I'd say its a wash. You also have a higher per fit ISK cost Vesta Opalus wrote: Also Im concerned that the amar logi will now be a much more attractive option for slaying than the Cal/Gal assaults. The Cal/Gal assaults have pretty ** poor weapon bonuses as is, so its not much of a sacrifice to drop those and get +2 equipment slots in return, and all you have to do to make up for most of the HP loss is lowball one or two equipment slots, in return you get (for example) a nanohive PLUS a crappy nanite injector and good uplinks + the amar logi uplink bonus. I did a thread awhile back about the Cal/Gal bonuses. Unfortunately at the time no resolution was reached due to a number of factors but I do still think the situation with the assault racial skills needs to be address even before the advent of these new polish elements in the OP. Vesta Opalus wrote:** I am happy to see talk of an extra module slot for commandos though (please consider giving Cal Commando better base shield regen and all commandos a bit better native armor repair as well). Edit to add: amar assault may be too slow to be effective after scrambler rebalancing, but who knows Commando native armor regen was already added during the earlier pass, I'd be inclined to see where things stand after they get their slots and movement shifts before altering their baseline further but keeping an eye on them I absolutely agree with. Though the next step may be a look a their racial skills because rather like the assaults they need some polish regardless. 0.02 ISK CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:46:00 - [101] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't have math, but I do have logic. You're ignoring a huge factor when just balancing speed vs HP in regards to assaults and logistics. If the assaults' HP is countered by the lack of speed, and vice versa for the logistics, then the these factors are balanced against each other (no net advantage or disadvantage), and thus assaults and logistics are equal when comparing net speed/HP advantages and disadvantages. If that is the case, then the logistics comes out on top because with speed and HP being balanced with the assaults, that leaves logistics with a very large advantage with no counterbalance: the 3-4 equipment slots while assaults only have 1. If the speed and HP advantages and disadvantages of assaults and logistics cancel out against each other when the 2 suit types are compared with one another, and the logistics gets a ton more equipment slots, what does the assault have to balance against that? just a sidearm? It doesn't seem fair. Sure assaults get fitting bonuses to weapons to allow for fitting better weapons, but logis get fitting bonuses to equipment, and the savings from the equipment fitting bonus can be used to equip better weapons also. In light of this, I don't think assaults should get a speed nerf. Also, assaults are meant to be the frontline fighters that rush to objectives and clear areas. Reducing speed conflicts with their intended purpose, as it makes it harder for them to rush objectives. In short, I suggest keeping assault speeds intact. Are you forgetting that Logis have next to zero base HP? Nowhere has it been said that Logis are getting a HP buff. Their low HP is the balance to their new found speed. Just like Scouts. Min Assaults will still be able to sprint close to 9m/s with a couple KinCats, and still have much better tank than their Logi counterparts. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:48:00 - [102] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Coolio. Have you considered forcing all equipment slots to be filled to make a valid fit? I have, but that will be a later part when I am balancing the same powercore for assaults and logistics. The key to avoiding the issue is to make the fitting reduction bonus on the Logistics significantly higher and then reducing the overall resources. This way fitting equipment is very 'cheap' but refusal to fit equipment does not free up many resources to spend on additional defenses. Since you're going to be touching on resources anyways for Logistics with the change in slots, this is the prime opportunity to address this issue. If a further push is needed here the CPU/PG costs of equipment could also be scaled upwards to give wider margins. Additionally if equipment use has a higher opportunity cost it wouldn't be unreasonable to value the logistics ability to use it readily at a higher level in overall role balance. But all of that is likely another layer of changes after these are deployed with the degrees determined by what trends emerge in game. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:48:00 - [103] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Doc DDD wrote: Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks... 8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply. Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV. Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance? How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo. Don't rant and derail the official community feedback threads, and leave the anti-shield conspiracy tinfoilery at the door. It's true, shields are literally nerfed every single patch time and time again other than that one patch that buffed regulators. The buff the AScR has almost destroyed shield tanking all on it's own. A militia AScR can absolutely wreck a 600 shield cal assault to a point where you can call it OP. Shield damaging weapons should not be buffed in order for them to be viable at killing armor. This directly nerfs shields when you do that. "Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 751	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:50:00 - [104] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: You also have a higher per fit ISK cost While I understand that ISK is a limiting factor for some people, it isnt for me, I couldnt care less. Cross Atu wrote: I did a thread awhile back about the Cal/Gal bonuses. Unfortunately at the time no resolution was reached due to a number of factors but I do still think the situation with the assault racial skills needs to be address even before the advent of these new polish elements in the OP. Yeah they are pretty lackluster, particularly the Caldari bonus. If these changes do go through we might need the assault bonuses buffed significantly (except the amarr bonus, which is already insanely good... depending on how far the scrambler nerf goes). Cross Atu wrote: Commando native armor regen was already added during the earlier pass, I'd be inclined to see where things stand after they get their slots and movement shifts before altering their baseline further but keeping an eye on them I absolutely agree with. Though the next step may be a look a their racial skills because rather like the assaults they need some polish regardless. 0.02 ISK Kind of agree, I think aside from the extra slot only the cal commando definately needs a buff (to its shield recharge delays, even with 2 low slots its not going to be able to get reasonable regen, and if its required to use those for regulators to get reasonable regen, why bother even putting them there, just leave them out and roll the regulator effects into the base suit).
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:55:00 - [105] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't have math, but I do have logic. You're ignoring a huge factor when just balancing speed vs HP in regards to assaults and logistics. If the assaults' HP is countered by the lack of speed, and vice versa for the logistics, then the these factors are balanced against each other (no net advantage or disadvantage), and thus assaults and logistics are equal when comparing net speed/HP advantages and disadvantages. If that is the case, then the logistics comes out on top because with speed and HP being balanced with the assaults, that leaves logistics with a very large advantage with no counterbalance: the 3-4 equipment slots while assaults only have 1. If the speed and HP advantages and disadvantages of assaults and logistics cancel out against each other when the 2 suit types are compared with one another, and the logistics gets a ton more equipment slots, what does the assault have to balance against that? just a sidearm? It doesn't seem fair. Sure assaults get fitting bonuses to weapons to allow for fitting better weapons, but logis get fitting bonuses to equipment, and the savings from the equipment fitting bonus can be used to equip better weapons also. In light of this, I don't think assaults should get a speed nerf. Also, assaults are meant to be the frontline fighters that rush to objectives and clear areas. Reducing speed conflicts with their intended purpose, as it makes it harder for them to rush objectives. In short, I suggest keeping assault speeds intact. Are you forgetting that Logis have next to zero base HP? Nowhere has it been said that Logis are getting a HP buff. Their low HP is the balance to their new found speed. Just like Scouts. Min Assaults will still be able to sprint close to 9m/s with a couple KinCats, and still have much better tank than their Logi counterparts. You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff. My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count. Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them. There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:05:00 - [106] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff. My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count. Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them. There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing. While I understand the point you're making, I feel like many people are undervaluing the Assault Bonuses themselves. An Amarr Logistics will not be able to make use of Laser Weapons nearly as well as an Amarr Assault. So if we go under the assumption you made that the speed/hp ratio effectively cancels each other out, would that not place the suits at similar survivability, with the Assault being better at killing due to their Assault bonus, and then the Logistics better at supporting with more equipment and bonuses to support it? Part of this may stem back to the time old issue of Assaults vs Commandos, and partially to the fact that many weapons perform very well, even without Assault Bonuses. I wonder if we did something like put a +1% Racial Damage/lvl bonus on the Assault (5% total) and then reduce damage of light weapons by 5%? Or something to more clearly solidify an Assault's advantage in terms of killing over other suits. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
alias lycan Capital Acquisitions LLC 43	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:07:00 - [107] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. As a CPM and thus community rep I feel it important to confirm, publicly and on the record that CCP Rattati is not a sufferer of melissophobia, unlike some poor unfortunates in our community. Rattati wasnt around long enough to remember. The real vets still have scars from the numerous stings. I believe rattati mentioned something about cal logis being punished for old sins. Well the sin was it was the only suit that could have 600 shielding with room to spare.
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:08:00 - [108] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff. My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count. Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them. There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing. Yet when Logis were slower AND have much lower HP, that was balanced? I'm no slayer, but If I can manage close to a 2.0 kdr in the lowest kdr suit in the game, then the Assaults will be fine. You can throw biotics on both suits, yes, but the Logi is nerfing itself more than the Assault for doing so. That said, I think the amount of speed nerf on the Assaults is too much. The fastest Assault should line up with the middle two Logis. I think the reason Rattati put their speed lower than that is because of the Basic frames. Assaults should be at least as fast as Basic frames. By doing that, then the slowest Assault will be as fast as the fastest Commando. No Assault should be slower than a Commando, Amarr scum or not. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:10:00 - [109] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Though the next step may be a look a their [Commando] racial skills because rather like the assaults they need some polish regardless. What do you mean by "polish" in this case, Cross, and what specifically do you have in mind? I agree that CA and GA Assault bonuses need improvement, but I'm inclined to strongly disagree that Commando racial skills are lacking. Bonuses to damage and reload speed make the Minmando an exceptional Swarmer. The same can be said for the Calmando as a Sniper. What could possibly be of greater value to these units than +damage and +reload? 100% in favor adding increasing the Commando's slot count and fitting its mobility to the speed/eHP curve ... but I don't think that they're racial bonuses are lacking. What am I missing here? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Gabriel Ceja Ready to Play 103	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:14:00 - [110] - Quote Can you also look into the caldari commandos shield regen because it's too long of a delay for a caldari suit it would be awesome if you can give the same shield regen stats as its Sentinel counterpart or something close to that. "Throw on the flux capacitor." activates fuel injector "WOOOOOO!!!"

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:15:00 - [111] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff. My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count. Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them. There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing. While I understand the point you're making, I feel like many people are undervaluing the Assault Bonuses themselves. An Amarr Logistics will not be able to make use of Laser Weapons nearly as well as an Amarr Assault. So if we go under the assumption you made that the speed/hp ratio effectively cancels each other out, would that not place the suits at similar survivability, with the Assault being better at killing due to their Assault bonus, and then the Logistics better at supporting with more equipment and bonuses to support it? Part of this may stem back to the time old issue of Assaults vs Commandos, and partially to the fact that many weapons perform very well, even without Assault Bonuses. I wonder if we did something like put a +1% Racial Damage/lvl bonus on the Assault (5% total) and then reduce damage of light weapons by 5%? Or something to more clearly solidify an Assault's advantage in terms of killing over other suits. I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Commander Noctus Gallente Loyalist 227	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:16:00 - [112] - Quote This I like. A commando that can actually get around the battlefield without an LAV. And that potential Gallente burst is absolutely lovely. I'd like to see the Caldari get some kinda special little bonus themselves though...perhaps a shield tank/regen buff? Jump buff? Weapon buff? Discussion for another time. That being said, as I have asked for a Logi buff before, my worries are the same as those that have already been voiced: Slayer Logi's/Killer Bees. But I'm not terribly afraid since things now between the two medium frames are much different than before. 1) Logi's have less tank and slightly less potential for tank as Assaults.* 2) Logi's lack weapons' bonus (to their racial guns) and lack a sidearm (minus Amarr). Some argue that they're lackluster, but that doesn't mean they don't play a part in gunfights. 3) Their EWAR is slightly better at finding people, but not for hiding. Adding more Dampeners means they lose tank. *The only thing that is irksome is that Logi's will have a noticeable CPU/PG difference between them and Assaults, affecting the tank. But only time will tell. Until then, I'll be eagerly waiting to rush opponents with my crazy-fast, shotgun toting Galmando Gallente User since Jan. 28th, 2013. Touched on every Gallente role since.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:18:00 - [113] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff. My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count. Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them. There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing. Yet when Logis were slower AND have much lower HP, that was balanced? I'm no slayer, but If I can manage close to a 2.0 kdr in the lowest kdr suit in the game, then the Assaults will be fine. You can throw biotics on both suits, yes, but the Logi is nerfing itself more than the Assault for doing so. That said, I think the amount of speed nerf on the Assaults is too much. The fastest Assault should line up with the middle two Logis. I think the reason Rattati put their speed lower than that is because of the Basic frames. Assaults should be at least as fast as Basic frames. By doing that, then the slowest Assault will be as fast as the fastest Commando. No Assault should be slower than a Commando, Amarr scum or not. "Yet when Logis were slower AND have much lower HP, that was balanced?" I don't see the relevance, as I was not making that case. I don't know if it's clear or not, but I feel like I should say that i'm totally fine with a logistics speed buff, I just don't see why assaults need such a drastic speed nerf, if a nerf at all. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:19:00 - [114] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff. My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count. Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them. There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing. Yet when Logis were slower AND have much lower HP, that was balanced? I'm no slayer, but If I can manage close to a 2.0 kdr in the lowest kdr suit in the game, then the Assaults will be fine. You can throw biotics on both suits, yes, but the Logi is nerfing itself more than the Assault for doing so. That said, I think the amount of speed nerf on the Assaults is too much. The fastest Assault should line up with the middle two Logis. I think the reason Rattati put their speed lower than that is because of the Basic frames. Assaults should be at least as fast as Basic frames. By doing that, then the slowest Assault will be as fast as the fastest Commando. No Assault should be slower than a Commando, Amarr scum or not. Logistics suit carry a lot of equipment. IMO, equipment weighs more than an armor plate. "Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:20:00 - [115] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. And we totally get that. If you will check the 100+ pages between the Logi threads Cross started, you would know that the intention is not to make Logis more appealing than Assaults to slayers. That is why Cross and Pokey and many others are saying, nerf Logi CPU/PG, increase Equipment fitting cost, and give Logis a better fitting bonus to equipment. This will leave TryHard slayer logi fits gimp in comparison to a good Assault fit. Also reworking the 2 crappy Assault bonuses will go a long ways. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:20:00 - [116] - Quote In my opinion the Caldari commando should have the same shield delays and regen like the cal. sentinel. 30HP/s 4 sec non depleted and 1 sec depleted delay. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:22:00 - [117] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. See that's where it gets really tricky because you're then dealing with a qualitative analysis of relative worth between Assault Bonuses (and you're right only 2 are really worth it) and having more equipment. I personally feel that people seem to put more worth in the equipment than they should, mostly due to leftover fear from when Logistics were stupidly broken, but again that's just a personal assessment. I think what Rattati is really going for here is "How can we make all suits feel roughly equally survivable?" and I feel that's a good direction to go with it. And as you have stated, the tradeoff of speed vs defense makes the suits 'equal' which I also think is a good thing. At which point my main question is "How can we make the Assault Bonuses feel like they're a fair tradeoff from the Logistics equipment?" Sadly I fear the answer is probably "Well if only the Commandos and Assaults were combined into one suit....." but that gets really tricky because it would basically mean the removal of Commandos from the game, which would likely be a nightmare on many fronts. Plus I have some pretty strong personal bias in that I love my Commando Q_Q So I guess for me I would say to all of the Assault players out there: "Assuming this speed/hp ratio goes through, what sort of changes to Assaults would you want to see in order to make the tradeoff between Assault and Logistics worth it, and solidify the Assault as the better slayer suit?" "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:22:00 - [118] - Quote Commander Noctus wrote: This I like. A commando that can actually get around the battlefield without an LAV. And that potential Gallente burst is absolutely lovely. I'd like to see the Caldari get some kinda special little bonus themselves though...perhaps a shield tank/regen buff? Jump buff? Weapon buff? Discussion for another time. That being said, as I have asked for a Logi buff before, my worries are the same as those that have already been voiced: Slayer Logi's/Killer Bees. But I'm not terribly afraid since things now between the two medium frames are much different than before. 1) Logi's have less tank and slightly less potential for tank as Assaults.* 2) Logi's lack weapons' bonus (to their racial guns) and lack a sidearm (minus Amarr). Some argue that they're lackluster, but that doesn't mean they don't play a part in gunfights. 3) Their EWAR is slightly better at finding people, but not for hiding. Adding more Dampeners means they lose tank. *The only thing that is irksome is that Logi's will have a noticeable CPU/PG difference between them and Assaults, affecting the tank. But only time will tell. Until then, I'll be eagerly waiting to rush opponents with my crazy-fast, shotgun toting Galmando Logistics suit is a logistics suit. It is not an assault therefore it doesn't need Assault bonuses. It isn't a frontline fighter therefore it doesn't need HP. The only job of the logi is to logi. Anyway, since it's an assault suit, I assume that the spot of the lost equipment modules on the Assault, is one taken by a sidearm and the other 2-3 are taken up by kinetic mechanics to increase their speed. "Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:23:00 - [119] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. And we totally get that. If you will check the 100+ pages between the Logi threads Cross started, you would know that the intention is not to make Logis more appealing than Assaults to slayers. That is why Cross and Pokey and many others are saying, nerf Logi CPU/PG, increase Equipment fitting cost, and give Logis a better fitting bonus to equipment. This will leave TryHard slayer logi fits gimp in comparison to a good Assault fit. Also reworking the 2 crappy Assault bonuses will go a long ways. I meant to say "Its NOT really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis" I didn't edit the post fast enough. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:23:00 - [120] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: In my opinion the Caldari commando should have the same shield delays and regen like the cal. sentinel. 30HP/s 4 sec non depleted and 1 sec depleted delay. Could not agree with you more. "Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.

Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 830	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:30:00 - [121] - Quote Last time I checked there was a bug with the stacking penalties on plates. Currently each plate additional has less of a penalty...the opposite of what it should be. Penalties should be 3% +4%+5% instead of the same diminishing returns of the positive attributes 3%+2%+1% (like damage mods). CCP Rattati > Humble pie is the worst late night snack. >
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:30:00 - [122] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. See that's where it gets really tricky because you're then dealing with a qualitative analysis of relative worth between Assault Bonuses (and you're right only 2 are really worth it) and having more equipment. I personally feel that people seem to put more worth in the equipment than they should, mostly due to leftover fear from when Logistics were stupidly broken, but again that's just a personal assessment. I think what Rattati is really going for here is "How can we make all suits feel roughly equally survivable?" and I feel that's a good direction to go with it. And as you have stated, the tradeoff of speed vs defense makes the suits 'equal' which I also think is a good thing. At which point my main question is "How can we make the Assault Bonuses feel like they're a fair tradeoff from the Logistics equipment?" Sadly I fear the answer is probably "Well if only the Commandos and Assaults were combined into one suit....." but that gets really tricky because it would basically mean the removal of Commandos from the game, which would likely be a nightmare on many fronts. Plus I have some pretty strong personal bias in that I love my Commando Q_Q So I guess for me I would say to all of the Assault players out there: "Assuming this speed/hp ratio goes through, what sort of changes to Assaults would you want to see in order to make the tradeoff between Assault and Logistics worth it, and solidify the Assault as the better slayer suit?" I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the qualitative value. I do think the assaults' bonuses are canceled out by the logitics' bonuses, so I don't count it as a point for the worth of assaults vs logistics and their equipment. Anyway, I'm still not convinced the assaults need a speed nerf. I would be alright if it was something small, but the proposal is far too drastic, and undermines the assault's role of being a mobile frontline fighter that rushes objectives. Furthermore, I think the logis would be in a good place with the speed buff without having to nerf assaults. I meant to say "Its NOT really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis," but I didn't edit the post fast enough. Seems like you know what I meant, but felt I should clarify. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Dreis ShadowWeaver 0uter.Heaven 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:36:00 - [123] - Quote Wait, has this been deployed today? 'Imminent' often has different meanings when used by different CCP staff. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel My Minja Blog Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:43:00 - [124] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Okay this may seem a bit ranty, but its just my observations, no dev bashing here. I'm all for across the board consistency. Here the assaults suits are getting a really big nerf. From what i can tell from the picture, logis get 0.25 m/s buff, the assault suits roughly 0.5 m/s speed nerf, commandos .35 roughly speed buff. The Min Assault will be as fast the current Min Logi. Caldari and Gallente as slow as the current Amarr logi. And that is really, really slow. The Amarr assaults are gettin the speed of current heavy suits. Oh wow. Thats a little too much Mr. Rattati. In a Foot race, post changes, guessing roughly of course. 1. Min scout 5.7 m/s 2. Gal Scout Caldari Scout 5.4 m/s 3. Amarr scout, Min Logi 5.25 m/s 4. Gal Logi, Caldari Logi, Min Basic 5 m/s 5. Min Assult 4.85 m/s 6. Amarr Logi, Gallente basic, Caldari Basic 4.75 m/s 7. Gallente Assult, Caldari Assault, Amarr Basic, Minmatar commando 4.6 m/s 8. Amarr assault, Caldari Commando, Gallente Commando, Min heavy basic 4.4 m/s 10. Minmatar Setinel 4.25 m/s 11. Amarr commando, caldari heavy, gallente heavy 4.2 m/s 12.Caldari setinel, gellente setinel 3.9 m/s 13. Amarr heavy 4.85 m/s 14. Amarr setinel 3.6 m/s With the planned tiericide, I confidently predict the return of the slayer Logi. Identical slots, more fitting space, and now faster than the assault suits. After all, the Min Logi will have a 4/4/4 slot layout at all tiers, and is getting the min assaut speed. Fit militia equipment to free up fitting space and the ADV min logi becomes the current Proto Min Assault. You can apply the same logic to the other assaults with dare i say it, lackluster bonuses. A cal logi with 5/3/3 slots or a slower caldari assault that can reload. Gal logi with extra fitting space or a slow gal assault that has less dispersion? And the Amarr assult....well might as well run a commando or heavy suit instead, more HP and more fire power, and identical if not faster speeds. I can't wait for the forums will begin to erupt about the min logi's s hit box detection, etc etc. Pretty much every thing they spull out of thier butts about the min assault witll be applied to the min Logi. Suggetion: Tighten up the assault speeds. Start the minmatar at 5.1 m.s, Gal calari at 4.9 and end with the Amarr at 4.6 m/s Slightly slower than thier respective racial logis, but certainly faster then comandos. I appreciate the thought, but there is a reason I am trying to move away from "feelings" and more to math and facts. The design needs to make sense, and players trade speed for tank, that's why dropsuits need to fit on the curve. If you don't want less speed, then the only way is less tank, but we already buffed tank for a reason and I don't want to change that. Speed has never been normalized properly before, and it needs to be done on a stable foundation, i.e. the speed/ehp curve. You buffed armour tank and nerfed shield tank. Good luck with your game, at least with all these arselicking yes men you must have the cleanest anus in shanghai.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:52:00 - [125] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the qualitative value. I do think the assaults' bonuses are canceled out by the logitics' bonuses, so I don't count it as a point for the worth of assaults vs logistics and their equipment. Anyway, I'm still not convinced the assaults need a speed nerf. I would be alright if it was something small, but the proposal is far too drastic, and undermines the assault's role of being a mobile frontline fighter that rushes objectives. Furthermore, I think the logis would be in a good place with the speed buff without having to nerf assaults. I meant to say "Its NOT really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis," but I didn't edit the post fast enough. Seems like you know what I meant, but felt I should clarify. Sorry if I was unclear. I meant that if this proposal goes through, that the overall survivability of the suits would be the same. My question for you is, what would need to happen (assuming the speed chamges) to the Assault bonus so that you would feel assault and logistics are of equal worth (including bonuses and equipment) overall? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Dreis ShadowWeaver 0uter.Heaven 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:53:00 - [126] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Okay this may seem a bit ranty, but its just my observations, no dev bashing here. I'm all for across the board consistency. Here the assaults suits are getting a really big nerf. From what i can tell from the picture, logis get 0.25 m/s buff, the assault suits roughly 0.5 m/s speed nerf, commandos .35 roughly speed buff. The Min Assault will be as fast the current Min Logi. Caldari and Gallente as slow as the current Amarr logi. And that is really, really slow. The Amarr assaults are gettin the speed of current heavy suits. Oh wow. Thats a little too much Mr. Rattati. In a Foot race, post changes, guessing roughly of course. 1. Min scout 5.7 m/s 2. Gal Scout Caldari Scout 5.4 m/s 3. Amarr scout, Min Logi 5.25 m/s 4. Gal Logi, Caldari Logi, Min Basic 5 m/s 5. Min Assult 4.85 m/s 6. Amarr Logi, Gallente basic, Caldari Basic 4.75 m/s 7. Gallente Assult, Caldari Assault, Amarr Basic, Minmatar commando 4.6 m/s 8. Amarr assault, Caldari Commando, Gallente Commando, Min heavy basic 4.4 m/s 10. Minmatar Setinel 4.25 m/s 11. Amarr commando, caldari heavy, gallente heavy 4.2 m/s 12.Caldari setinel, gellente setinel 3.9 m/s 13. Amarr heavy 4.85 m/s 14. Amarr setinel 3.6 m/s With the planned tiericide, I confidently predict the return of the slayer Logi. Identical slots, more fitting space, and now faster than the assault suits. After all, the Min Logi will have a 4/4/4 slot layout at all tiers, and is getting the min assaut speed. Fit militia equipment to free up fitting space and the ADV min logi becomes the current Proto Min Assault. You can apply the same logic to the other assaults with dare i say it, lackluster bonuses. A cal logi with 5/3/3 slots or a slower caldari assault that can reload. Gal logi with extra fitting space or a slow gal assault that has less dispersion? And the Amarr assult....well might as well run a commando or heavy suit instead, more HP and more fire power, and identical if not faster speeds. I can't wait for the forums will begin to erupt about the min logi's s hit box detection, etc etc. Pretty much every thing they spull out of thier butts about the min assault witll be applied to the min Logi. Suggetion: Tighten up the assault speeds. Start the minmatar at 5.1 m.s, Gal calari at 4.9 and end with the Amarr at 4.6 m/s Slightly slower than thier respective racial logis, but certainly faster then comandos. I appreciate the thought, but there is a reason I am trying to move away from "feelings" and more to math and facts. The design needs to make sense, and players trade speed for tank, that's why dropsuits need to fit on the curve. If you don't want less speed, then the only way is less tank, but we already buffed tank for a reason and I don't want to change that. Speed has never been normalized properly before, and it needs to be done on a stable foundation, i.e. the speed/ehp curve. You buffed armour tank and nerfed shield tank. Good luck with your game, at least with all these arselicking yes men you must have the cleanest anus in shanghai. Ooooooooooooo, you gettin' bannnnnnnned! Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel My Minja Blog Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:57:00 - [127] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the qualitative value. I do think the assaults' bonuses are canceled out by the logitics' bonuses, so I don't count it as a point for the worth of assaults vs logistics and their equipment. Anyway, I'm still not convinced the assaults need a speed nerf. I would be alright if it was something small, but the proposal is far too drastic, and undermines the assault's role of being a mobile frontline fighter that rushes objectives. Furthermore, I think the logis would be in a good place with the speed buff without having to nerf assaults. I meant to say "Its NOT really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis," but I didn't edit the post fast enough. Seems like you know what I meant, but felt I should clarify. Sorry if I was unclear. I meant that if this proposal goes through, that the overall survivability of the suits would be the same. My question for you is, what would need to happen (assuming the speed chamges) to the Assault bonus so that you would feel assault and logistics are of equal worth (including bonuses and equipment) overall? Honestly don't know, and I don't think the bonuses should be a really massive thing for any suit, and I think it would be easier just to not nerf the assault speed. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Scheneighnay McBob Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary 7	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:05:00 - [128] - Quote Wouldn't it make more sense just to buff logi eHP and nerf assault eHP? Aloha snackbar
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:09:00 - [129] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: So I guess for me I would say to all of the Assault players out there: "Assuming this speed/hp ratio goes through, what sort of changes to Assaults would you want to see in order to make the tradeoff between Assault and Logistics worth it, and solidify the Assault as the better slayer suit?" Assuming eHP / Speed is implemented as described, spitballing ... 1) Wire all Assaults with a higher sprint multiplier than other frames (credit to Ripley Riley). Thinking short bursts of speed for moving from cover-to-cover or getting to the frontlines faster. This should be a "special property" unique to Assault frames. Regular Sprint Multiplier (current ---> future) Assault Frame: mCharProp.movementSprint.groundSpeedScale = 1.4 GA/CA Assault Base Speed: 5 m/s ----> 4.6 m/s MN Assault Base Speed: 5.3 m/s ---> 4.8 m/s AM Assault Base Speed: 4.8 m/s ---> 4.3 m/s GA/CA Assault Sprint Speed: 7.35 m/s ---> 6.76 m/s MN Assault Sprint Speed: 7.79 m/s ---> 7.06 m/s AM Assault Sprint Speed: 7.06 m/s ---> 6.43 m/s Special Sprint Multiplier (proposed) Assault Frame: mCharProp.movementSprint.groundSpeedScale = 1.5 GA/CA Assault Base Speed: 4.6 m/s MN Assault Base Speed: 4.8 m/s AM Assault Base Speed: 4.3 m/s GA/CA Assault Sprint Speed: 7.25 m/s MN Assault Sprint Speed: 7.56 m/s AM Assault Sprint Speed: 6.77 m/s If my maths are correct, the MN Assault with this "special sprint multiplier" will sprint at a slightly lower speed (7.56 m/s) than the AM Scout and the future MN Logi (7.72 m/s). Kindly note that only sprint speeds are affected by this proposed "special multiplier" and that base movement speeds (and other speeds derived from base movement) remain exactly as Rattati has outlined on Page 1. 2) Improve Gal and Cal Assault bonuses. Ideas: * Gal Assault: Replace bonus to dispersion with bonus to rate-of-fire * Cal Assault: Replace bonus to reload with bonus to kick while aiming-down-sights Disclaimer: Part-Time Assault Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:15:00 - [130] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Wouldn't it make more sense just to buff logi eHP and nerf assault eHP? If it fits the HP/speed curve, sure. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 895	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:18:00 - [131] - Quote Alternative assault bonus suggestions: Cal - reload plus spool reduction. Gal - increase the current dispersion reduction. To be honest, there's no reason why reducing assault speed can't balance the suit, it's just the speed probably shouldn't be reduced as much as proposed. Improving Cal and Gal assault bonuses is more about bringing racial balance to assaults.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:21:00 - [132] - Quote My biggest concer would be HP comperable Scouts and Logis being faster than the HP comperable Assault. I tried to make some judgement based upon the images but could not really do so. I don't want to go back to the days of slayer scouts or slayer logis. Is there any data you could give comparing speeds of HP equivalent roles? Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:27:00 - [133] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: My biggest concer would be HP comperable Scouts and Logis being faster than the HP comperable Assault. I tried to make some judgement based upon the images but could not really do so. I don't want to go back to the days of slayer scouts or slayer logis. Is there any data you could give comparing speeds of HP equivalent roles? Did you see the "Bricked" chart? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:32:00 - [134] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Doc DDD wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Doc DDD wrote: That was my feedback, caldari will be nerfed to be slower than gallente if gallentes speed is buffed. complex regulator gives you 100% more stamina and regen on a suit with 5 lows. Unless you are planning on giving it a quarter of its current stamina and regen there will be even more imbalance. Why doesn't caldari have a much higher movement speed as it is only using shields? If you are giving gallente higher native top speed why not give caldari higher movement speed similar to minmitar assault ( which dual tanks ). Similar to vehicles, Gunlogis are better a manoeuvring while gallente has higher top speed? Isn't that how balance works? There is no rant, just trying to paint a picture on how certain things are being perceived. This doesn't resemble what you posted in the sligthest, it was an accusative rant, and there's no mistaking it. And quit trying to logic, you suck at it, a buff to gallente does not automatically mean caldari were nerfed. So if you buffed every suit in the game save the heavy suit, this would not be a heavy nerf? Go back to school No, in fact it would not, a nerf is a reduction, unless the heavy suit was in fact reduced in some fashion, then it is not a nerf. Are you unfamiliar with meaning and cause/effect? Yea but buffing the performance of something to be better than something else may not be a nerf, it still leaves an imbalance. If we were to use eve as an example, it's true that caldari are the slowest, but they also excel in other areas such as high agility, the longest targeting ranges of any race, and also the ability to fit some of the highest eHP builds of any race often twice as much as any other. None of those traits are present here in dust. Caldari are slow, mostly blind in terms of passive scans, low agility, and suffer low power shields (shield eHP / shield regen ratio) when fielding a full traditional shield tank. Caldari counter speed with the ability to engage targets at long range. You can't do that when your passive scan are natively non viable. The issue with shields is that a full shield tank leaves you with less hp and zero regen at any range when caught without cover vs armor with more HP and often damage than shields can field in defense
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:34:00 - [135] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: While you're at it, mind fixing the Gallente speed being the same as Caldari? Gallente are supposed to be very fast for short bursts of speed (MWD eating capacitor). We could simulate that by giving Gallente similar sprint speed to Minmatar, but very bad stamina. Would help the Duvolle too, in the whole "get close and rekt" part. Which speeds aren't aligned? I didn't notice, they are always supposed to be the same as CA. he means that Gallente should have more speed but weaker stamina to get into combat with AR/shotgun quickly and wreck there.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:38:00 - [136] - Quote I don't agree with this ideal that speed and HP need to be inversely proportion especially if it takes precedence over the logical attributes of suit roles. As a Logi I don't need to be faster than Assaults. I don't want to out run the guys I am supporting. If anything I want to be as fast as them. As an assault I choose to fit my suit for speed so I can constantly be pressuring my opponents. Having less speed only serves to punish the lower end of the assault speed spectrum. The Amarr Assault was never fast in the first place, why is it being penalised again? "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
golpe 4 Eternal Beings 26	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:42:00 - [137] - Quote My poor caldari assault it cant take no more im just a scrub here, to u know, do things helpful like ummm commenting,complaining,and giving terrible advice thats it
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:42:00 - [138] - Quote Can we get a spreadsheet of these changes? Graphs are nice, but numbers are better. Also, aren't assault supposed to have speed to push objectives, whereas sentinels have low speed in order to be point defense? A speed reduction is okay, but WOW is that drastic. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
zzZaXxx Capital Acquisitions LLC 755	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:46:00 - [139] - Quote Assaults are gonna be a LOT slower. More speed for logis, commandos, and sentinals is good. Normalized progression is good I guess. More slots for commandos is a must. ...Yeah I'm okay with assaults being slower Hey if you're gonna change commandos please tweak some other things, such as improving the Calmando's shield recharge delay.
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. RUST415 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:51:00 - [140] - Quote I think it's rapidly becoming clear that the debate on this topic is going to come down to whether it's possible within the proposed "speed vs eHP" trade off paradigm to make additional changes that result in balance. The issue here is that we have these knobs to turn where suit balance is concerned: - Fitting (PG/CPU) - Role+Racial bonuses - Speed and speed related statistics (the idea of messing with the sprint modifier is novel) - Slot layout - Base HP and other HP related statistics (EG repair rate and shield delay) Of all these, speed and HP are probably the least discrete. What I mean by a "discrete" variable is that even the smallest change in that variable has a high potential to change balance. Slot layout, in particular, is extremely discrete just based on the evidence that the different suit classes provide. By tying HP and speed together in a firm relationship, we lose a "knob" from the above list. We can still twist the twin HP-speed subsystem knob, but they can't really be twisted independently. The ensuing discussion has focused around the other knobs: Slot layout. suit bonuses, and combinations of those. Here's my question that I don't really have the answer to because it's hard, but really needs to be considered: Is it possible to achieve a reasonable state of balance after adopting the HP-speed tie-together given the highly discrete nature of slot layouts and to a lesser extent suit bonuses? It's possible that the answer is no, which puts us in Kage's camp. In that case we can still tie speed and HP together in the proposed way, but tune that combined "knob" to a different position. On a different note, I think it's important to note that speed doesn't affect survivability exclusively. Speed is also a substantial contributor to aggression potential. I think that's one of the reasons I'm a bit afraid of the "killer bees" returning. From an anecdotal perspective, I run ferroscale plates as opposed to regular ones. It's not that the speed necessarily just keeps me alive more than the HP bonus, it's that I can also choose to take fights and chase down fleeing opponents more readily. Long term roadmap by Aeon Amadi Have a pony

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:54:00 - [141] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. See that's where it gets really tricky because you're then dealing with a qualitative analysis of relative worth between Assault Bonuses (and you're right only 2 are really worth it) and having more equipment. I personally feel that people seem to put more worth in the equipment than they should, mostly due to leftover fear from when Logistics were stupidly broken, but again that's just a personal assessment. I think what Rattati is really going for here is "How can we make all suits feel roughly equally survivable?" and I feel that's a good direction to go with it. And as you have stated, the tradeoff of speed vs defense makes the suits 'equal' which I also think is a good thing. At which point my main question is "How can we make the Assault Bonuses feel like they're a fair tradeoff from the Logistics equipment?" Sadly I fear the answer is probably "Well if only the Commandos and Assaults were combined into one suit....." but that gets really tricky because it would basically mean the removal of Commandos from the game, which would likely be a nightmare on many fronts. Plus I have some pretty strong personal bias in that I love my Commando Q_Q So I guess for me I would say to all of the Assault players out there: "Assuming this speed/hp ratio goes through, what sort of changes to Assaults would you want to see in order to make the tradeoff between Assault and Logistics worth it, and solidify the Assault as the better slayer suit?" I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the qualitative value. I do think the assaults' bonuses are canceled out by the logitics' bonuses, so I don't count it as a point for the worth of assaults vs logistics and their equipment. Anyway, I'm still not convinced the assaults need a speed nerf. I would be alright if it was something small, but the proposal is far too drastic, and undermines the assault's role of being a mobile frontline fighter that rushes objectives. Furthermore, I think the logis would be in a good place with the speed buff without having to nerf assaults. I meant to say "Its NOT really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis," but I didn't edit the post fast enough. Seems like you know what I meant, but felt I should clarify. This is what I mean. Assaults are as Kage put it "Mobile Frontline Fighters that rush objectives". This is their fundamental role. Ensuring that their are always players on the frontlines pushing for the objective. Speed nerfs directly and rather significantly hinder this role. Only one suit at this time to my knowledge is "bleeding over" into the Scout Class the others seem relatively balanced in terms of their movement speeds without modifying them via modules. Logistics I can understand want to have some bonuses but in being one I realise I don't need to be faster than an Assault to do my job well, if anything I want to roughly be the same speed as them as there is no point in out running the team I am supposed to be supporting, if I am with multiple forms of equipment then I am directly bleeding into the Scout Class. Were my Assault's Speed nerfed and the Logi buffed significantly I would just tank my Amarr Logi better and use that as an Assault suit for its speed and being able to carry equipment. If the speed values were standardised or the Logi buffed to Assault Speeds the suits would still in their current forms retain enough unique traits to merit the use of the Assault. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:56:00 - [142] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I don't agree with this ideal that speed and HP need to be inversely proportion especially if it takes precedence over the logical attributes of suit roles. As a Logi I don't need to be faster than Assaults. I don't want to out run the guys I am supporting. If anything I want to be as fast as them. As an assault I choose to fit my suit for speed so I can constantly be pressuring my opponents. Having less speed only serves to punish the lower end of the assault speed spectrum. The Amarr Assault was never fast in the first place, why is it being penalised again? Its about roles. Assaults shouldn't be faster than their lower HP counterparts because then it dimishes the point in playing those roles. With HP as it is, with EWAR and speed components as they are, Assaults are over performing. My Std Min Assault is way too fast and effective. Logis need to be a bit faster because they are squishy. They can alternate between sprinting and walking to catch up to sentinels while being able to recharge enough to be evasive if needs be. This makes loads of sense to me. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:07:00 - [143] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: True Adamance wrote: I don't agree with this ideal that speed and HP need to be inversely proportion especially if it takes precedence over the logical attributes of suit roles. As a Logi I don't need to be faster than Assaults. I don't want to out run the guys I am supporting. If anything I want to be as fast as them. As an assault I choose to fit my suit for speed so I can constantly be pressuring my opponents. Having less speed only serves to punish the lower end of the assault speed spectrum. The Amarr Assault was never fast in the first place, why is it being penalised again? Its about roles. Assaults shouldn't be faster than their lower HP counterparts because then it dimishes the point in playing those roles. With HP as it is, with EWAR and speed components as they are, Assaults are over performing. My Std Min Assault is way too fast and effective. Logis need to be a bit faster because they are squishy. They can alternate between sprinting and walking to catch up to sentinels while being able to recharge enough to be evasive if needs be. This makes loads of sense to me. In a conflict do your advance your supply lies faster than your main combat troops? Nope? I didn't think so. The value of the Logisitcs role is in its capacity to support the efforts of other suit not its own combat potential. You are force multiplying by establishing uplinks, nanohives, repairs, revives etc. You should be staying with your squad or the main body of your team to support them not running off to establish equipment is remote positions. That bleeds into the role of scouting. As such there is no need to be able to move faster than your front line combat troops. If we are talking about roles then we should do so logically. As a role the Logistics essentially fills the "Support/Healer" role. This typically is denoted by lesser health, a wide variety of support units, and certainly is NOT characterised by excessive speed more so than say the "DPS" role (AKA the Assault). "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Golden Day Corrosive Synergy No Context 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:09:00 - [144] - Quote I'm pissed off no motha flocking caldari shield buff?? Thank you,CCP Rattati you are the best at fixing shields... Im just a glorified blueberry
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:10:00 - [145] - Quote True Adamance wrote: In a conflict do your advance your supply lies faster than your main combat troops? Nope? I didn't think so. The value of the Logisitcs role is in its capacity to support the efforts of other suit not its own combat potential. You are force multiplying by establishing uplinks, nanohives, repairs, revives etc. You should be staying with your squad or the main body of your team to support them not running off to establish equipment is remote positions. That bleeds into the role of scouting. As such there is no need to be able to move faster than your front line combat troops. If we are talking about roles then we should do so logically. As a role the Logistics essentially fills the "Support/Healer" role. This typically is denoted by lesser health, a wide variety of support units, and certainly is NOT characterised by excessive speed more so than say the "DPS" role (AKA the Assault). This here. Assaults have speed because they are supposed to push objectives. Lower speed means they cannot push. Especially in light of the fact that logis are getting a buff, this is in effect a double nerf. I would suggest just buffing logi speed and seeing how that works. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:11:00 - [146] - Quote alias lycan wrote: This is a pretty dangerous thing to do as long as logis and assaults have the same slot count. I think the cal logi actually has 1 more slot than the assault. People could just copy their assault fits and improve them with the extra cpu and pg plus have the speed. Depends on your assault fitting I suppose but you have to apply the role bonus (fittings cost reduction to LW, sidearm and nade) as well. Also there isn't really "extra" cpu and pg it's a bit different but not just "more" so it's usefulness is going to be down to the specific fits not a blanket loss/gain. Cal for example Assault has more CPU Logi has more PG Same story with the Min medium frames though the margins are a bit tighter. So there won't be more cpu and pg, possibly one but not both, and the Am Logi aside no one can copy paste their assault fit to a logi unless they don't use a sidearm at all (which some may not, but sidearm utility is obviously something above zero so shouldn't be dismissed out of hand). You are right on the Cal logi slot layout, it needs to have that extra migrated to be an equipment rather than a utility slot that would put it in line with the assault in regards to utility slots and with the other logi in regards to equipment slots. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:13:00 - [147] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: Slayer logi with 3 or 4 compact nanohives? Compact hives likely need a bit of a touch up from where they are currently. The recent changes in fittings cost helped but initial impressions seem to indicate they need toned down further. If nothing else it could always be a "limit one" equipment mod, which isn't an ideal go to solution as the first option but would be far from the worst thing ever. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:15:00 - [148] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: On a second note... making sure all equipment slots are filled is almost useless, too... Slayer logi with 3 or 4 compact nanohives? Make all equipment slots mandatory + increase CPU/PG fitting bonuses for logis + reduce CPU/PG for logis = plenty of CPU/PG for equipment but not much left for brick tanking and proto weaponry. Been advocating some version of this for months now. Granted some of whether this is viable comes down to the numbers, but I support the general concept. Those logi currently running with full slots shouldn't have their fittings constrained further but taking steps to prevent "equipment free" fittings seems very worth while. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 233	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:17:00 - [149] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: Slayer logi with 3 or 4 compact nanohives? Compact hives likely need a bit of a touch up from where they are currently. The recent changes in fittings cost helped but initial impressions seem to indicate they need toned down further. If nothing else it could always be a "limit one" equipment mod, which isn't an ideal go to solution as the first option but would be far from the worst thing ever. Then we can get all proto hives buffed to 9 carried, like the patch notes said. Petition to ban the trainyard map.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:25:00 - [150] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: increase CPU/PG fitting bonuses for logis What would a suitable fitting bonus be in your opinion? I think there's a tough problem here: - Too low fitting bonus: Fit 4 Compact Nanohives and use the remaining fitting space to become a killing machine. Bumping up the fitting requirement for compact nanos doesn't help. Needles actually have lower fitting requirements (Yes, I need 4 STD needles! ). - Too high fitting bonus: Equipment becomes 'Logi only' much like the Scout's cloak. That means you need a Scout or a Logi if you want to carry nanohives or scanners. This will make people try to get their slayer-role done with those suits since you can't run a KDR over 5 without nanohives. And squadplay will make people want to carry sticks and scanners, even if they want to be a slayer 95% of the time. There may be a middleground between these two extremes, but as long as the Logi is somewhat combat effective and has the added utility of many equipment slots people will use that. The incentive to use an Assault suit must be very big to counteract the disadvantage of having less equipment. This is currently the case. If the suggestion in the OP goes through it won't (unless additional factors apply). If you check out the logi feedback thread there's been a fair bit of theory crafting and debate on this subject. Part of the answer is that any change to the role bonus needs to account for the the value loss of not just the raw fitting reduction but the potential value with full skills, and needs to derive it's applied numbers from the cost of equipment mods themselves (since it is a % reduction to what is fit, not a raw buff to pg/cpu values). The compact nano is an issue, no two ways about that, and should likely be toned down even without these changes but certainly with the changes something needs to be looked at as a way to address them. Increased fittings costs, reduced max carried, or a hard limit of one per fit are all options on the table as far as I'm concerned, perhaps even a combination of them. Another part of the solution is to make sure the assault racial bonuses are performing with proper utility, if it is not a meaningful loss of slayer value to abandon those racial buffs (as some posts in this thread seem to imply) then the skills themselves likely need polish. Finally I believe you are correct that too high a role bonus for logi could have an adverse effect, which is part of why a mildly increased cpu/pg cost for equipment is worth looking into. It provides more definition for the support role without taking equipment out of the hands of everyone and (if combined with a equipment slots requirement on logi suits) also makes the use of a logistics frame less trivial to attempt any "cut and paste" assault fitting. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:25:00 - [151] - Quote I mean something to consider... The old slayer logis were problematic because they had so much HP from bonuses. It stands to reason that Rattati wanted to avoid this issue by buffing speed instead of HP in order to bring up survivability while avoiding huge buffer like we used to have. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:27:00 - [152] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: On a second note... making sure all equipment slots are filled is almost useless, too... Slayer logi with 3 or 4 compact nanohives? Make all equipment slots mandatory + increase CPU/PG fitting bonuses for logis + reduce CPU/PG for logis = plenty of CPU/PG for equipment but not much left for brick tanking and proto weaponry. Been advocating some version of this for months now. Granted some of whether this is viable comes down to the numbers, but I support the general concept. Those logi currently running with full slots shouldn't have their fittings constrained further but taking steps to prevent "equipment free" fittings seems very worth while. Would this put undue strain on early career Logis? Thinking about Cloak and early career Scouts; they usually can't fit it until Level 4. And cloak isn't as instrumental to Scouting as EQ is to Logi'ing. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:28:00 - [153] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, as part of a Logi and Commando review, and my own rational hatred of irrational things, we will be aligning speeds across the board in an imminent hotfix. Consider this initiative only a part of the changes. I believe this will give Commandos and Logis a real buff, as they will be more mobile, even if stacking hitpoints, and will be a needed reduction in the Assault class overall, with the outliers of Minmatar Assault overwhelming moblity, and Amarr Assault hp stacked fits. A picture says more than a thousand words, so please take a look. I am also constructing the brick version of this chart to see how that pans out. My assumption is that Commandos will need at least an extra slot to be able to tank comparably o other Roles. I made a thing to look at various dropsuit stats and compare them to each other and between races. Google docs LINK I think it is safe to say that part of the Minmatars overwhelming mobility comes from their far superior Stamina Regen. Speaking of which and about the Logis and Commandos, perhaps it is time to take a look at: Stamina Stamina Regen Shield Recharge Rate Shield Recharge Delay Shield Depleted Recharge Delay As well as the racial perks and sacrifices of various stats, what do you think?
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:30:00 - [154] - Quote True Adamance wrote: One Eyed King wrote: True Adamance wrote: I don't agree with this ideal that speed and HP need to be inversely proportion especially if it takes precedence over the logical attributes of suit roles. As a Logi I don't need to be faster than Assaults. I don't want to out run the guys I am supporting. If anything I want to be as fast as them. As an assault I choose to fit my suit for speed so I can constantly be pressuring my opponents. Having less speed only serves to punish the lower end of the assault speed spectrum. The Amarr Assault was never fast in the first place, why is it being penalised again? Its about roles. Assaults shouldn't be faster than their lower HP counterparts because then it dimishes the point in playing those roles. With HP as it is, with EWAR and speed components as they are, Assaults are over performing. My Std Min Assault is way too fast and effective. Logis need to be a bit faster because they are squishy. They can alternate between sprinting and walking to catch up to sentinels while being able to recharge enough to be evasive if needs be. This makes loads of sense to me. In a conflict do your advance your supply lies faster than your main combat troops? Nope? I didn't think so. The value of the Logisitcs role is in its capacity to support the efforts of other suit not its own combat potential. You are force multiplying by establishing uplinks, nanohives, repairs, revives etc. You should be staying with your squad or the main body of your team to support them not running off to establish equipment is remote positions. That bleeds into the role of scouting. As such there is no need to be able to move faster than your front line combat troops. If we are talking about roles then we should do so logically. As a role the Logistics essentially fills the "Support/Healer" role. This typically is denoted by lesser health, a wide variety of support/heal abilities, and certainly is NOT characterised by excessive speed more so than say the "DPS" role (AKA the Assault). While I woild love for Scouts to be more involved in the role of laying EQ it is clear from the BW changes that that is a minor role for scouts at best. As a result that needs to be taken into consideration as well. And if you look at Assault speeds vs the other combat oriented roles of Sentinel and Commando, they are still faster. Not to mention they have all those fitting slots with which to fit KinCats and Cardiac Regs. My biggest concern as stated above somewhere is speed penalties to plates not being significant enough on Scouts and Logis. We don't need either to be better at slaying than Assaults. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:31:00 - [155] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Would this put undue strain on early career Logis? Thinking about Cloak and early career Scouts; they usually can't fit it until Level 4. And Cloak isn't as instrumental to Scouting as EQ is to Logi'ing. This is a really good point. I liked the ideas that were being bounced around where Fitting Bonuses come in at level 1, and do not increase as you progress. This could work for both the cloak and the logi fitting bonuses. Know what cannot be known.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:35:00 - [156] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I mean something to consider... The old slayer logis were problematic because they had so much HP from bonuses. It stands to reason that Rattati wanted to avoid this issue by buffing speed instead of HP in order to bring up survivability while avoiding huge buffer like we used to have. While I agree with that statement it seems illogical to have logistics players advancing faster than your assault units. I don't see a need to differentiate their speeds. Asssault dropsuits are primarily aggression and weapons focused while logistics are support and equipment focused. Logi players shouldn't want to be outrunning their team mates, on the other hand, assaults should want to be in the enemy teams face all the time. Why not instead buff Logistics speed up to that of Assaults so that they get what they want however do not drag down another class to do it. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:39:00 - [157] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: My biggest concern as stated above somewhere is speed penalties to plates not being significant enough on Scouts and Logis. We don't need either to be better at slaying than Assaults. Agreed. Sometime back (HF Delta?) Rattati implemented an armor-plate strafe penalty specifically targeting Scouts. If this is possible, then it stands to reason that greater/lesser penalties could be assigned by frame type. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:44:00 - [158] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: [ While I woild love for Scouts to be more involved in the role of laying EQ it is clear from the BW changes that that is a minor role for scouts at best. As a result that needs to be taken into consideration as well. And if you look at Assault speeds vs the other combat oriented roles of Sentinel and Commando, they are still faster. Not to mention they have all those fitting slots with which to fit KinCats and Cardiac Regs. My biggest concern as stated above somewhere is speed penalties to plates not being significant enough on Scouts and Logis. We don't need either to be better at slaying than Assaults. This to me suggests an issue with scouts and their EWAR capacity rather than assault needing to change the "fast and aggressive" combat role of Assaults. However you have yet to provide sound reason that I can accept for Logisitics "needing" to be faster than Assaults. You Logisitics are faster than Sentinels and Commandos thus will easily catch up to them in combat, no logi needs Scout like speed in case it results in role bleed, however the Logi could use the ability to keep apace with Assaults. Why not simply set that as the benchmark and see how it goes. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:46:00 - [159] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: One Eyed King wrote: My biggest concern as stated above somewhere is speed penalties to plates not being significant enough on Scouts and Logis. We don't need either to be better at slaying than Assaults. Agreed. Sometime back (HF Delta?) Rattati implemented an armor-plate strafe penalty specifically targeting Scouts. If this is possible, then it stands to reason that greater/lesser penalties could be assigned by frame type. LIkely the lighter the frame the uses the plate the harsher the penalty. EVE does something like this called "Mass Penalty". Amarr Ships weigh a lot. Min Ships weight less. Put a plate on an Amarr Ship and the speed penalties are lesser on the Amarr ship than the Minmatar ship. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:46:00 - [160] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I mean something to consider... The old slayer logis were problematic because they had so much HP from bonuses. It stands to reason that Rattati wanted to avoid this issue by buffing speed instead of HP in order to bring up survivability while avoiding huge buffer like we used to have. While I agree with that statement it seems illogical to have logistics players advancing faster than your assault units. I don't see a need to differentiate their speeds. Asssault dropsuits are primarily aggression and weapons focused while logistics are support and equipment focused. Logi players shouldn't want to be outrunning their team mates, on the other hand, assaults should want to be in the enemy teams face all the time. Why not instead buff Logistics speed up to that of Assaults so that they get what they want however do not drag down another class to do it. Well the idea is to have a HP to speed curve, so equal speed would mean Logis would have equal HP too, which I don't think people want. If not equal, then one needs to be superior one way or another. Logis would have either more HP and less speed, or more speed and less HP. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net

Scheneighnay McBob Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary 7	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:50:00 - [161] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Wouldn't it make more sense just to buff logi eHP and nerf assault eHP? If it fits the HP/speed curve, sure. That's what I mean: logis are too squishy for their role Aloha snackbar
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:51:00 - [162] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I mean something to consider... The old slayer logis were problematic because they had so much HP from bonuses. It stands to reason that Rattati wanted to avoid this issue by buffing speed instead of HP in order to bring up survivability while avoiding huge buffer like we used to have. While I agree with that statement it seems illogical to have logistics players advancing faster than your assault units. I don't see a need to differentiate their speeds. Asssault dropsuits are primarily aggression and weapons focused while logistics are support and equipment focused. Logi players shouldn't want to be outrunning their team mates, on the other hand, assaults should want to be in the enemy teams face all the time. Why not instead buff Logistics speed up to that of Assaults so that they get what they want however do not drag down another class to do it. Well the idea is to have a HP to speed curve, so equal speed would mean Logis would have equal HP too, which I don't think people want. If not equal, then one needs to be superior one way or another. Logis would have either more HP and less speed, or more speed and less HP. Or equivalent speed, less HP, and more equipment slots. The logistics class could use more speed to function in their role however this does not necessary mean they need more speed than frontline aggressive combat suits only and equivalent amount. You also do not need more HP to function in a support role. Better EWAR could serve the Logi well if they don't already have it, etc. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:53:00 - [163] - Quote Well personally I was more a fan of more HP, less speed, better stamina for logi vs assault. But that's just me "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:56:00 - [164] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Wouldn't it make more sense just to buff logi eHP and nerf assault eHP? If it fits the HP/speed curve, sure. That's what I mean: logis are too squishy for their role Placing equipment, staying out of lines of fire, and repairing other suits....requires large quantities of HP? I don't think so. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:57:00 - [165] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't have math, but I do have logic. You're ignoring a huge factor when just balancing speed vs HP in regards to assaults and logistics. If the assaults' HP is countered by the lack of speed, and vice versa for the logistics, then the these factors are balanced against each other (no net advantage or disadvantage), and thus assaults and logistics are equal when comparing net speed/HP advantages and disadvantages. If that is the case, then the logistics comes out on top because with speed and HP being balanced with the assaults, that leaves logistics with a very large advantage with no counterbalance: the 3-4 equipment slots while assaults only have 1. If the speed and HP advantages and disadvantages of assaults and logistics cancel out against each other when the 2 suit types are compared with one another, and the logistics gets a ton more equipment slots, what does the assault have to balance against that? just a sidearm? It doesn't seem fair. Sure assaults get fitting bonuses to weapons to allow for fitting better weapons, but logis get fitting bonuses to equipment, and the savings from the equipment fitting bonus can be used to equip better weapons also. In light of this, I don't think assaults should get a speed nerf. Also, assaults are meant to be the frontline fighters that rush to objectives and clear areas. Reducing speed conflicts with their intended purpose, as it makes it harder for them to rush objectives. In short, I suggest keeping assault speeds intact. Kage your logic has holes. You cite added mods fit but make no mention of the added cost to fit them (in either ISK or CPU/PG), if one additional sidearm is of lessor value to a slayer fit then 2-3 additional equipment slots that needs to be looked at certainly but treating those slots as if they fill for free is an oversight. You omit the effect of the assault racial bonuses (if they are too weak to be worth mentioning that is something which should be fixed not a flaw in the current proposal). The contention as presented is that if survivability (largely that balance between mobility and HP) is balanced then the assault has lessor value to the logi? That seems flawed, survival is required to perform any role on the battlefield and as such should be roughly balanced anything less denigrates the overall quality of the game but diminishing the functionally useful content present. From the reasoning you've presented above it sounds like the value of the assault racial buffs and the overall ease of fitting/utility of equipment for slayer fits needs to be looked at rather than discarding the use of a inverse balance between speed and HP game wide. How many equipment slots, in your estimation, is a sidearm worth to a slayer fit? And what specific pieces of equipment would a slayer fit run in those extra slots to get better slaying utility out of their fit than the use of a side arm. Those would be key areas to consider and address if a sidearm is truly of lessor value on balance for running as a killer. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:02:00 - [166] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff. My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count. Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them. There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing. While I understand the point you're making, I feel like many people are undervaluing the Assault Bonuses themselves. An Amarr Logistics will not be able to make use of Laser Weapons nearly as well as an Amarr Assault. So if we go under the assumption you made that the speed/hp ratio effectively cancels each other out, would that not place the suits at similar survivability, with the Assault being better at killing due to their Assault bonus, and then the Logistics better at supporting with more equipment and bonuses to support it? Part of this may stem back to the time old issue of Assaults vs Commandos, and partially to the fact that many weapons perform very well, even without Assault Bonuses. I wonder if we did something like put a +1% Racial Damage/lvl bonus on the Assault (5% total) and then reduce damage of light weapons by 5%? Or something to more clearly solidify an Assault's advantage in terms of killing over other suits. This seems like a reasonable line of thought to pursue. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:05:00 - [167] - Quote Perhaps instead of a speed to HP curve, its speed to mobility curve, where mobility is defined as a function of speed and stamina? You could then vary speed for logistics to maintain the proper mobility by throttling stamina as your independent variable? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 272	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:08:00 - [168] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I mean something to consider... The old slayer logis were problematic because they had so much HP from bonuses. It stands to reason that Rattati wanted to avoid this issue by buffing speed instead of HP in order to bring up survivability while avoiding huge buffer like we used to have. While I agree with that statement it seems illogical to have logistics players advancing faster than your assault units. I don't see a need to differentiate their speeds. Asssault dropsuits are primarily aggression and weapons focused while logistics are support and equipment focused. Logi players shouldn't want to be outrunning their team mates, on the other hand, assaults should want to be in the enemy teams face all the time. Why not instead buff Logistics speed up to that of Assaults so that they get what they want however do not drag down another class to do it. Well the idea is to have a HP to speed curve, so equal speed would mean Logis would have equal HP too, which I don't think people want. If not equal, then one needs to be superior one way or another. Logis would have either more HP and less speed, or more speed and less HP. Or equivalent speed, less HP, and more equipment slots. The logistics class could use more speed to function in their role however this does not necessary mean they need more speed than frontline aggressive combat suits only and equivalent amount. You also do not need more HP to function in a support role. Better EWAR could serve the Logi well if they don't already have it, etc. What you do need is actual bonuses related to support in that manner than. The Amarr Logi in particular (with its drop uplink bonus) has a bonus that requires it to run out ahead or flank from the side in order to properly place uplinks (without the assistance of Drop Ships, Drop Ship placed uplinks are much better...but that's combining roles)...the Bonuses need to be changed to better fit the support role (Drop Uplinks/Scanners seems like more of a Scout Suit thing IMO) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
Henchmen21 Planet Express LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:08:00 - [169] - Quote My two favorite roles. Amarr/Min Logi and Gal/Min Commando I got an answer to just about any situation. Acquisition is terrible, matchmaking is terrible, your game is still riddled with bugs, you should feel bad.
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. RUST415 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:11:00 - [170] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Perhaps instead of a speed to HP curve, its speed to mobility curve, where mobility is defined as a function of speed and stamina? You could then vary speed for logistics to maintain the proper mobility by throttling stamina as your independent variable? I'm reposting this because it ended up being the last post on page 7 and I think it got into that unfortunate position where the page count bumped before anyone saw it. I've suggested categorizing the different variables we have to turn into some (albeit obvious) distinctive categories. Leither from p7 wrote: I think it's rapidly becoming clear that the debate on this topic is going to come down to whether it's possible within the proposed "speed vs eHP" trade off paradigm to make additional changes that result in balance. The issue here is that we have these knobs to turn where suit balance is concerned: - Fitting (PG/CPU) - Role+Racial bonuses - Speed and speed related statistics (the idea of messing with the sprint modifier is novel) - Slot layout - Base HP and other HP related statistics (EG repair rate and shield delay) Of all these, speed and HP are probably the least discrete. What I mean by a "discrete" variable is that even the smallest change in that variable has a high potential to change balance. Slot layout, in particular, is extremely discrete just based on the evidence that the different suit classes provide. By tying HP and speed together in a firm relationship, we lose a "knob" from the above list. We can still twist the twin HP-speed subsystem knob, but they can't really be twisted independently. The ensuing discussion has focused around the other knobs: Slot layout. suit bonuses, and combinations of those. Here's my question that I don't really have the answer to because it's hard, but really needs to be considered: Is it possible to achieve a reasonable state of balance after adopting the HP-speed tie-together given the highly discrete nature of slot layouts and to a lesser extent suit bonuses? It's possible that the answer is no, which puts us in Kage's camp. In that case we can still tie speed and HP together in the proposed way, but tune that combined "knob" to a different position. On a different note, I think it's important to note that speed doesn't affect survivability exclusively. Speed is also a substantial contributor to aggression potential. I think that's one of the reasons I'm a bit afraid of the "killer bees" returning. From an anecdotal perspective, I run ferroscale plates as opposed to regular ones. It's not that the speed necessarily just keeps me alive more than the HP bonus, it's that I can also choose to take fights and chase down fleeing opponents more readily. Long term roadmap by Aeon Amadi Have a pony

Songs of Seraphim Negative-Feedback. 983	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:12:00 - [171] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I mean something to consider... The old slayer logis were problematic because they had so much HP from bonuses. It stands to reason that Rattati wanted to avoid this issue by buffing speed instead of HP in order to bring up survivability while avoiding huge buffer like we used to have. While I agree with that statement it seems illogical to have logistics players advancing faster than your assault units. I don't see a need to differentiate their speeds. Asssault dropsuits are primarily aggression and weapons focused while logistics are support and equipment focused. Logi players shouldn't want to be outrunning their team mates, on the other hand, assaults should want to be in the enemy teams face all the time. Why not instead buff Logistics speed up to that of Assaults so that they get what they want however do not drag down another class to do it. This. I read through all the comments and suggestions before I began posting, but I thought of this idea halfway through. It is better to have the medium suits in a linear fashion, whilst reducing the Minmatar Assault speed and buffing the speed of the Amarr Scout, Minmatar Logistics, and Amarr Logistics. Assaults are in a good place at the moment, and shouldn't get nerfed, I believe. Rather, the Logistics class should be in line with the Assault class while the Commando's receive their movement and speed buffs -- while the Caldari Commando should get a Shield Regen/Depleted buff. We want Logis to be mobile enough to move from place to place since they'll be reviving, repping, and supporting. Currently they're sluggish, but if they're matched with the movement and sprint speeds of the Assault, they should be in a viable place. The whole concept of the second graph where the suits are brick tanked are null. There may be outliers where some people actually do it, but its seldom -- or I just personally don't see it -- as there are just better things to do than stacking plates or extenders. Assaults (mostly) refrain from using vanilla plates to keep their speed. Reactives and Ferroscale are the way to go these days on all suits but Sentinels. In addition to keeping the Logistics and Assaults similar, with similar slot layouts, but differentiate between the roles: The Logi should have better eWar capabilities and better regen than the Assault counterpart. As well as a tad lower CPU/PG on the Logi but higher fitting capability on the suit itself. This way it would be an intermediate between Scout eWar and Assault offensive capabilities. I may be missing something since I'm getting ready to play a gig today, so I might update it a bit when the ideas return. Caldari Loyalist Join Caldari FW via Kirjuun Saaja
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:13:00 - [172] - Quote alias lycan wrote: Cross Atu wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. As a CPM and thus community rep I feel it important to confirm, publicly and on the record that CCP Rattati is not a sufferer of melissophobia, unlike some poor unfortunates in our community. Rattati wasnt around long enough to remember. The real vets still have scars from the numerous stings. I believe rattati mentioned something about cal logis being punished for old sins. Well the sin was it was the only suit that could have 600 shielding with room to spare. Yeah I remember the old "sins" and how all logi frames were punished for the sins of the Cal racial logi skill. The Cal skill was a bad idea, the following logi nerfs were a bad idea, and the melissophobia then and now remains a bad idea. Scrambler Rifle over performing? Don't nerf the Amarr Assault or Commando to fix it, because that doesn't. Double repped, double hardened armor HAV fits over performing? Don't nerf the base cassias of all HAVs to address an over powered synergy. Myofibs granting more jump than intended, don't nerf the Cal and Min frames slots to block stacked Myos, just address the Myos themselves. TAR killing LAVs at range? Nerfing the native armor regen and base HP of the Gal Assault isn't the proper fix. Cal Logi racial bonus brokenly OP? Should not have resulted in nerfing logistics frames, or even the Cal frame, the bonus should have been fixed. Same with the present day "Assaults have no reason to be run as slayer fits unless they're the best of class in both speed and HP within the medium line" then that right there is a problem. Just like it would be a problem if there was no reason to run a scout unless they had assault HP, or no reason to run a heavy unless they had assault movement speeds. There should be a reason why the assault is the assault that does not require it to have better movement and better HP. The trend of them being inverse is already present in many aspects of the game as we can all see from how the balance between light, medium, and heavy frames works, so if they are truly lacking without having this imbalanced stacking of both then other aspects of the class - like their racial bonuses - really need to be looked into. 0.02 ISK CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:16:00 - [173] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Well personally I was more a fan of more HP, less speed, better stamina for logi vs assault. But that's just me All I am saying is that I fundamentally disagree with the premise of the Speed vs HP curve. One one end of the spectrum you have your Fast, Low Hp Scouts, on the other your have the Commando and Sentinels Slow and with high HP values. In the middle I am convinced it would be better to have the standardised Medium Frames of the Assault and Logi with similar speeds one having more HP, the other having lower HP in exchange for 3x Equipment Slots and better EWAR. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:17:00 - [174] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Wouldn't it make more sense just to buff logi eHP and nerf assault eHP? If it fits the HP/speed curve, sure. That's what I mean: logis are too squishy for their role Placing equipment, staying out of lines of fire, and repairing other suits....requires large quantities of HP? I don't think so. When you are on the front lines, don't have a weapon out, and enemies know to shoot you first because you're slow and have little health? Logis aren't supposed to hide in the corner until it's safe to come out. Logis belong on the front lines, supporting their team under fire. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:21:00 - [175] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Though the next step may be a look a their [Commando] racial skills because rather like the assaults they need some polish regardless. What do you mean by "polish" in this case, Cross, and what specifically do you have in mind? I agree that CA and GA Assault bonuses need improvement, but I'm inclined to disagree that Commando racial skills are lacking. Bonuses to damage and reload speed make the Minmando an exceptional Swarmer. The same can be said for the Calmando as a Sniper. What could possibly be of greater value to these units than +damage and +reload? 100% in favor increasing the Commando's slot count and fitting its mobility to the speed/eHP curve ... but I don't see how their racial bonuses are lacking. What am I missing here? Currently there is an internal imbalance among the commandos, the Min being a leader and the Am generally considered to straggle. If I am completely frank the skills themselves might not need touched at all if we had a full slate of racial weapon offerings such that every racial commando had access to at least; 1. rifle 2. AV 3. zone control/area denial This would allow them to gain the proper degree of synergy between their two LW slot layout and their racial damage bonus. As it currently stands you can do a good job of that with the Min, running Swarm/CR, MD/CR, or even Swarm/MD but end up with the others having silly configurations such as the Cal APEX running Sniper/RR not useless but far from a general utility fit. Sans these weapon offerings the skills themselves may need a second look, what and how much is likely to remain up in the air until the effects of certain things (like the proposed changes to slots and speed) are known. I'd like to say "we should just add the weapons" but I do not know how likely that is to be within reach of the current resources we have available for use. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:21:00 - [176] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Well personally I was more a fan of more HP, less speed, better stamina for logi vs assault. But that's just me All I am saying is that I fundamentally disagree with the premise of the Speed vs HP curve. One one end of the spectrum you have your Fast, Low Hp Scouts, on the other your have the Commando and Sentinels Slow and with high HP values. In the middle I am convinced it would be better to have the standardised Medium Frames of the Assault and Logi with similar speeds one having more HP, the other having lower HP in exchange for 3x Equipment Slots and better EWAR. I have an idea. Let me collect my thoughts and put something together after work. I think it may be a good compromise for everyone. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:24:00 - [177] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. And we totally get that. If you will check the 100+ pages between the Logi threads Cross started, you would know that the intention is not to make Logis more appealing than Assaults to slayers. That is why Cross and Pokey and many others are saying, nerf Logi CPU/PG, increase Equipment fitting cost, and give Logis a better fitting bonus to equipment. This will leave TryHard slayer logi fits gimp in comparison to a good Assault fit. Also reworking the 2 crappy Assault bonuses will go a long ways. ^Yes, all of this. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:27:00 - [178] - Quote Songs of Seraphim wrote: In addition to keeping the Logistics and Assaults similar, with similar slot layouts, but differentiate between the roles: The Logi should have better eWar capabilities and better regen than the Assault counterpart. As well as a tad lower CPU/PG on the Logi but higher fitting capability on the suit itself. This way it would be an intermediate between Scout eWar and Assault offensive capabilities. I see what you are saying. On the most basic level I can...... I suggest that..... Logistics and Assaults have the same movement values. Assaults - + HP, + stamina regen, MAYBE + native regen. Logistics = - HP, +EWAR , + equipment slots. I think these to be fair trades for the differences that reinforce the two roles. One fast, agressive, weapons focused while the other is able to keep apace with frontline units, support, and equipment focused. Does that really seem so unfair? "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:30:00 - [179] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the qualitative value. I do think the assaults' bonuses are canceled out by the logitics' bonuses, so I don't count it as a point for the worth of assaults vs logistics and their equipment. Anyway, I'm still not convinced the assaults need a speed nerf. I would be alright if it was something small, but the proposal is far too drastic, and undermines the assault's role of being a mobile frontline fighter that rushes objectives. Furthermore, I think the logis would be in a good place with the speed buff without having to nerf assaults. I meant to say "Its NOT really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis," but I didn't edit the post fast enough. Seems like you know what I meant, but felt I should clarify. Sorry if I was unclear. I meant that if this proposal goes through, that the overall survivability of the suits would be the same. My question for you is, what would need to happen (assuming the speed chamges) to the Assault bonus so that you would feel assault and logistics are of equal worth (including bonuses and equipment) overall? Valid question and much more clearly put than mine. This is the post I should have made in response. Kage, please disregard my prior (I am leaving it for the sake of continuity), and redirect to this one as it focuses much more effectively on what I was attempting to get at. o7 CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:32:00 - [180] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. And we totally get that. If you will check the 100+ pages between the Logi threads Cross started, you would know that the intention is not to make Logis more appealing than Assaults to slayers. That is why Cross and Pokey and many others are saying, nerf Logi CPU/PG, increase Equipment fitting cost, and give Logis a better fitting bonus to equipment. This will leave TryHard slayer logi fits gimp in comparison to a good Assault fit. Also reworking the 2 crappy Assault bonuses will go a long ways. ^Yes, all of this. It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault to do this. Why can it not achieve the above while being buffed to the same speed? "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:36:00 - [181] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Alternative assault bonus suggestions: Cal - reload plus spool reduction. Gal - increase the current dispersion reduction. To be honest, there's no reason why reducing assault speed can't balance the suit, it's just the speed probably shouldn't be reduced as much as proposed. Improving Cal and Gal assault bonuses is more about bringing racial balance to assaults. Thanks for the input on the racial skills. Also, I'd like to take this moment to be utterly clear as I have (obviously) a fair amount of support for the concepts in the OP. I do want to say that I am not focused on specific numbers per se nor trying to argue for or against them, I am simply supporting the fundamental concept of the Speed to HP ratio. As such I am totally open to the idea of specific numbers being honed along the way so long as the fundamental practice remains intact. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 272	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:37:00 - [182] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. And we totally get that. If you will check the 100+ pages between the Logi threads Cross started, you would know that the intention is not to make Logis more appealing than Assaults to slayers. That is why Cross and Pokey and many others are saying, nerf Logi CPU/PG, increase Equipment fitting cost, and give Logis a better fitting bonus to equipment. This will leave TryHard slayer logi fits gimp in comparison to a good Assault fit. Also reworking the 2 crappy Assault bonuses will go a long ways. ^Yes, all of this. It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault to do this. Why can it not achieve the above while being buffed to the same speed? To Run up quickly to stab people with a Magic Nanite Needle to get them back in the fight, then fade back behind the advancing lines to shield them from fire because of their low HP. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:40:00 - [183] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: True Adamance wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. And we totally get that. If you will check the 100+ pages between the Logi threads Cross started, you would know that the intention is not to make Logis more appealing than Assaults to slayers. That is why Cross and Pokey and many others are saying, nerf Logi CPU/PG, increase Equipment fitting cost, and give Logis a better fitting bonus to equipment. This will leave TryHard slayer logi fits gimp in comparison to a good Assault fit. Also reworking the 2 crappy Assault bonuses will go a long ways. ^Yes, all of this. It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault to do this. Why can it not achieve the above while being buffed to the same speed? To Run up quickly to stab people with a Magic Nanite Needle to get them back in the fight, then fade back behind the advancing lines to shield them from fire because of their low HP. Have I ever let you down Thaddeus using the slowest logi in the game? That being said you could still do this more efficiently if your suit was AS FAST as an assault. (I run Needle on my Assault all the time BTW). "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 272	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:44:00 - [184] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: True Adamance wrote: Cross Atu wrote: [quote=Booby Tuesdays] ^Yes, all of this. It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault to do this. Why can it not achieve the above while being buffed to the same speed? To Run up quickly to stab people with a Magic Nanite Needle to get them back in the fight, then fade back behind the advancing lines to shield them from fire because of their low HP. Have I ever let you down Thaddeus? That being said you could still do this more efficiently if your suit was AS FAST as an assault. (I run Needle on my Assault all the time BTW). Do you need to be faster? Not really. The extra speed would be nice fulfill the support role and keep me alive while doing it XD. I can see your point that if the Logis get the same fitting slot layout and relative fitting power, while still gaining bonuses, I can see them getting the same Speed levels despite the HP despair. The Amarr Logi's Bonus in particular would benefit from a higher movement speed than assaults in order to be able to catch up after placing a good link a bit away from the battle so it won't be found...but that's more of an issue with an infiltrator's equipment on a medic suit Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 847	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:47:00 - [185] - Quote Are Cal Logis getting their 4th equipment slot at Proto? Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:55:00 - [186] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: The extra speed would be nice fulfill the support role and keep me alive while doing it XD. I can see your point that if the Logis get the same fitting slot layout and relative fitting power, while still gaining bonuses, I can see them getting the same Speed levels despite the HP despair. The Amarr Logi's Bonus in particular would benefit from a higher movement speed than assaults in order to be able to catch up after placing a good link a bit away from the battle so it won't be found...but that's more of an issue with an infiltrator's equipment on a medic suit And I am not saying they can't or shouldn't have it. Just asking why it requires the Assault suit role to take a hit and why the Logisitcs Class a supporting role needs speed that is above that of your frontline suits. I just don't understand why Logistics cannot achieve all of those other lofty goals that Cross talked about while having an equivalent speed value which is a direct speed buff to Logi while not fundamentally impacting on the Asssault Role. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:00:00 - [187] - Quote True Adamance wrote: One Eyed King wrote: True Adamance wrote: I don't agree with this ideal that speed and HP need to be inversely proportion especially if it takes precedence over the logical attributes of suit roles. As a Logi I don't need to be faster than Assaults. I don't want to out run the guys I am supporting. If anything I want to be as fast as them. As an assault I choose to fit my suit for speed so I can constantly be pressuring my opponents. Having less speed only serves to punish the lower end of the assault speed spectrum. The Amarr Assault was never fast in the first place, why is it being penalised again? Its about roles. Assaults shouldn't be faster than their lower HP counterparts because then it dimishes the point in playing those roles. With HP as it is, with EWAR and speed components as they are, Assaults are over performing. My Std Min Assault is way too fast and effective. Logis need to be a bit faster because they are squishy. They can alternate between sprinting and walking to catch up to sentinels while being able to recharge enough to be evasive if needs be. This makes loads of sense to me. In a conflict do your advance your supply lies faster than your main combat troops? Nope? I didn't think so. The value of the Logisitcs role is in its capacity to support the efforts of other suit not its own combat potential. You are force multiplying by establishing uplinks, nanohives, repairs, revives etc. You should be staying with your squad or the main body of your team to support them not running off to establish equipment is remote positions. That bleeds into the role of scouting. As such there is no need to be able to move faster than your front line combat troops. If we are talking about roles then we should do so logically. As a role the Logistics essentially fills the "Support/Healer" role. This typically is denoted by lesser health, a wide variety of support/heal abilities, and certainly is NOT characterised by excessive speed more so than say the "DPS" role (AKA the Assault). Speed and survivability are NOT combat potential, they are *everything* potential. If you cannot get to a place you cannot act within it no matter the role of the action intended, if you cannot survive you are not on the field to act at all no matter the role of the action intended. A suit with both less speed and less HP than it's near counterparts, or even worse a lower average combined speed+hp value on balance, is going to underperform and essentially be prey, or chum, for those suits with the higher values (or if those suits are completely non-aggressive it can be ignored by them). Currently the logistics and commando frames both suffer from this below average combined speed+hp status meaning in plain terms that they cannot fight or flee effectively, they are also hampered from proper tactical deployment or redeployment. Being fragile but agile is a reasonable opportunity cost, as is being sturdy and slow, but being sluggish and squishy? That's not opportunity cost or balance, that's just poor craftsmanship. As to applying "real world" doctrine to dusts lobby battles, a certain degree of adaptation is required as standard notions of supply lines et al clearly do not apply in the same ways. Besides which, the communications officer in a squad isn't told "you're support, so be less fit, less well armed, and don't bother to bring body armor" even if he's not supposed to be the first one in when breaching a hostile point. He is in fact part of a front line unit and functions as such, but all of that is as arbitrary as saying "because lore" things need to happen for balance within a given context and framework, but that has to be more than notional it has to be fitted to the actual framework the game and code as it stands. In this game the single lobby is the entire theater of engagement and supply is measured in seconds not weeks or months, it demands a different type of assessment. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 272	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:02:00 - [188] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: The extra speed would be nice fulfill the support role and keep me alive while doing it XD. I can see your point that if the Logis get the same fitting slot layout and relative fitting power, while still gaining bonuses, I can see them getting the same Speed levels despite the HP despair. The Amarr Logi's Bonus in particular would benefit from a higher movement speed than assaults in order to be able to catch up after placing a good link a bit away from the battle so it won't be found...but that's more of an issue with an infiltrator's equipment on a medic suit And I am not saying they can't or shouldn't have it. Just asking why it requires the Assault suit role to take a hit and why the Logisitcs Class a supporting role needs speed that is above that of your frontline suits. I just don't understand why Logistics cannot achieve all of those other lofty goals that Cross talked about while having an equivalent speed value which is a direct speed buff to Logi while not fundamentally impacting on the Asssault Role. In order to have a Standardized curve for HP vs Mobility (the two primary forms of survivability) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 897	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:07:00 - [189] - Quote Speed is definately very important for a logi to perform the support role. So I totally disagree with all the "logi's don't need to be faster than their squad mates" people.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:08:00 - [190] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: On a second note... making sure all equipment slots are filled is almost useless, too... Slayer logi with 3 or 4 compact nanohives? Make all equipment slots mandatory + increase CPU/PG fitting bonuses for logis + reduce CPU/PG for logis = plenty of CPU/PG for equipment but not much left for brick tanking and proto weaponry. Been advocating some version of this for months now. Granted some of whether this is viable comes down to the numbers, but I support the general concept. Those logi currently running with full slots shouldn't have their fittings constrained further but taking steps to prevent "equipment free" fittings seems very worth while. Would this put undue strain on early career Logis? Thinking about Cloak and early career Scouts; they usually can't fit it until Level 4. And Cloak isn't as instrumental to Scouting as EQ is to Logi'ing. It's a risk, some of it is down to numbers and some of it will require the use of lower meta gear rather than proto. One aspect to consider here is that in the current game state there is undue strain on early career Logis but that is due to being lackluster at living, having a high SP bar for the diverse bits of equipment, the rather spastic slot progression (leaving the early logi with few equipment slots to even try and perform their main role) and then still having the struggle to fit equipment as it's usually a squeeze even with full fittings skills and full proto skills so prior to that it's a real crunch. The change I mentioned does risk increasing that fittings burden but it gives some redress to others and the SP required to run a full support logi remains the same so even if the early days are still just as rough (though for different reasons) they would at least also come with a bit more of a light at the end of the tunnel. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:11:00 - [191] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Speed is definately very important for a logi to perform the support role. So I totally disagree with all the "logi's don't need to be faster than their squad mates" people. I think I have been phasing it incorrectly. What I should have been saying is "Why do assaults need to be slower than you in order for you to Logi properly?". E.G- The difference between the sprinting speed of the Amarr Assault and the Amarr Logi is 0.35 m/s. [Amarr Logi = 6.37 , Amarr Assault = 6.72 meters per second unmodified by skills]. Where is the harm of standardising their mobility values so that both move apace. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:19:00 - [192] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Speed is definately very important for a logi to perform the support role. So I totally disagree with all the "logi's don't need to be faster than their squad mates" people. I think I have been phasing it incorrectly. What I should have been saying is "Why do assaults need to be slower than you in order for you to Logi properly?". E.G- The difference between the sprinting speed of the Amarr Assault and the Amarr Logi is 0.35 m/s. [Amarr Logi = 6.37 , Amarr Assault = 6.72 meters per second unmodified by skills]. Where is the harm of standardising their mobility values so that both move apace. I don't see why the Logis can't be faster so they can live to fight another day, or at least get to cover (a pipe dream for current low HP, low speed Logis). Being faster also helps a Logi set up a nest that is waiting for the assault to take place from. The Assaults will still have more stamina, and better stamina regen. They will still have more HP, and be better suited for combat. They will still be able to run down a lone survivor Logi. The proposed "numbers" may be a tad too much, but I'm fairly certain the actual gap between Assaults and Logis is up for debate, hence this thread. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Dremel wp Shadow Company HQ Lokun Listamenn 66	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:23:00 - [193] - Quote Are the Amarr and Gallente commandos switching slot layouts according to racial matrix, as the sentinels were
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:28:00 - [194] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Wouldn't it make more sense just to buff logi eHP and nerf assault eHP? If it fits the HP/speed curve, sure. That's what I mean: logis are too squishy for their role Placing equipment, staying out of lines of fire, and repairing other suits....requires large quantities of HP? I don't think so. Staying out of the line of fire requires speed, and if that "line of fire" is defined by someone wielding a weapon, say an assault with a CR, AR, RR, or SCR, then that "line of fire" can advance on you, meaning your relative speed becomes very relevant indeed. Furthermore placing equipment (in a combat zone), staying out of the lines of fire (while saying directly in the thick of combat to rep and revive) et al most certainly do require some level of HP, what level of HP is directly proportional (inversely) to level of speed in many cases as you need enough speed to GTFO when under fire and enough HP to have sufficient time to employ your allotted amount of speed. Without the minimal levels of combined speed and HP needed to at least flee effectively then any role is in a very poor state indeed. (Sententials can't flee very well, but they still highlight this point as they have enough HP to tank incoming fire and kill the hostile forces, that however is clearly not what we want a support role to do so agility makes sense). CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:35:00 - [195] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: True Adamance wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Wouldn't it make more sense just to buff logi eHP and nerf assault eHP? If it fits the HP/speed curve, sure. That's what I mean: logis are too squishy for their role Placing equipment, staying out of lines of fire, and repairing other suits....requires large quantities of HP? I don't think so. Staying out of the line of fire requires speed, and if that "line of fire" is defined by someone wielding a weapon, say an assault with a CR, AR, RR, or SCR, then that "line of fire" can advance on you, meaning your relative speed becomes very relevant indeed. Furthermore placing equipment (in a combat zone), staying out of the lines of fire (while saying directly in the thick of combat to rep and revive) et al most certainly do require some level of HP, what level of HP is directly proportional (inversely) to level of speed in many cases as you need enough speed to GTFO when under fire and enough HP to have sufficient time to employ your allotted amount of speed. Without the minimal levels of combined speed and HP needed to at least flee effectively then any role is in a very poor state indeed. (Sententials can't flee very well, but they still highlight this point as they have enough HP to tank incoming fire and kill the hostile forces, that however is clearly not what we want a support role to do so agility makes sense). That initial statement is debatable. Rather than speed it requires positioning. Behind a crate, a wall, another player, etc. However that is not on topic. Perhaps I should just wait and see. I find there nothing to complain about while running Logistics over Assault. I accept I am playing the support healer role and that typically results in less HP than tank or DPS counterparts. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:38:00 - [196] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Perhaps I should just wait and see. I find there nothing to complain about while running Logistics over Assault. I accept I am playing the support healer role and that typically results in less HP than tank or DPS counterparts. Have you played any of the other Logis? Or are you speaking from the view of using the only actual combat focused Logi? Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:43:00 - [197] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Well personally I was more a fan of more HP, less speed, better stamina for logi vs assault. But that's just me All I am saying is that I fundamentally disagree with the premise of the Speed vs HP curve. One one end of the spectrum you have your Fast, Low Hp Scouts, on the other your have the Commando and Sentinels Slow and with high HP values. In the middle I am convinced it would be better to have the standardised Medium Frames of the Assault and Logi with similar speeds one having more HP, the other having lower HP in exchange for 3x Equipment Slots and better EWAR. The notion of exchanging survivability (i.e. removing it) in favor of "X other asset" (in this an extra couple equipment slots) is gravely and deeply flawed. If you are not alive you cannot do anything on the field. If there is a disparity in utility then the margins in utility need to be looked out for better balancing. If there is a disparity in survivability then the margins of survivability need to be looked at. The two are not interchangeable. When mobility, HP, et al are combined into eHP there should be (at least approximate) balance between all frames and roles. Once that on the field balance is established so that everyone has a properly balanced window of opportunity to perform their role then looking to the utility of that role, be it slaying, point defense, zones of control, av, resupply, etc. is the next step but no amount of utility value even become relevant if survivability is improperly balanced or insufficient. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:55:00 - [198] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: True Adamance wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Speed is definately very important for a logi to perform the support role. So I totally disagree with all the "logi's don't need to be faster than their squad mates" people. I think I have been phasing it incorrectly. What I should have been saying is "Why do assaults need to be slower than you in order for you to Logi properly?". E.G- The difference between the sprinting speed of the Amarr Assault and the Amarr Logi is 0.35 m/s. [Amarr Logi = 6.37 , Amarr Assault = 6.72 meters per second unmodified by skills]. Where is the harm of standardising their mobility values so that both move apace. I don't see why the Logis can't be faster so they can live to fight another day, or at least get to cover (a pipe dream for current low HP, low speed Logis). Being faster also helps a Logi set up a nest that is waiting for the assault to take place from. The Assaults will still have more stamina, and better stamina regen. They will still have more HP, and be better suited for combat. They will still be able to run down a lone survivor Logi. The proposed "numbers" may be a tad too much, but I'm fairly certain the actual gap between Assaults and Logis is up for debate, hence this thread. Again NOT SAYING I DON'T WANT LOGISTICS TO BE FASTER just not gain a significant speed boost at the cost of the Assault suit. Both have a claim to want speed, neither one is more deserving than the other. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:56:00 - [199] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: The extra speed would be nice fulfill the support role and keep me alive while doing it XD. I can see your point that if the Logis get the same fitting slot layout and relative fitting power, while still gaining bonuses, I can see them getting the same Speed levels despite the HP despair. The Amarr Logi's Bonus in particular would benefit from a higher movement speed than assaults in order to be able to catch up after placing a good link a bit away from the battle so it won't be found...but that's more of an issue with an infiltrator's equipment on a medic suit And I am not saying they can't or shouldn't have it. Just asking why it requires the Assault suit role to take a hit and why the Logisitcs Class a supporting role needs speed that is above that of your frontline suits. I just don't understand why Logistics cannot achieve all of those other lofty goals that Cross talked about while having an equivalent speed value which is a direct speed buff to Logi while not fundamentally impacting on the Asssault Role. This is, and should be, about more than one role, or even one frame size. This is a game wide assessment of value and reassertion of a currently present premises and trend. Mobility and HP have always had a general inverse relationship within Dust. The very nature of the frames plays to that as do, to a lessor extent, the stat spreads on the racial suits (Amarr high HP and slow, Min low HP and fast). This foundation has been obfuscated by issues with mod balance, fittings, and then further distorted by other alterations and tweaks along the way but it has been with us since closed beta. The proposal in question, fundamentally, simply reaffirms this basic foundation. There is a trade off between speed and raw HP. Ferro plates don't have more HP than standard plates. Shield extenders do not slow you down as much as standard plates do. Armor suits are generally slower than shield suits. Whatever one may say about the proper balance between these mods, or general tanking styles, the fundamental conceptual trend is clear and the OP is advocating adherence to that more fully within the comparative scope of all the roles, scouts on one end of the continuum light and fragile, sentinels on the other heavy and tanked. Assaults should not need to be the exception to this pervasive design rule, and if they cannot function properly without being the exception, then clearly more work needs to be done so that they are in a better place but the need for that work, no matter how grave, does not substantiate the notion that they should be an exemption from the fundamental concept prevalent throughout the rest of the game. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:59:00 - [200] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Speed is definately very important for a logi to perform the support role. So I totally disagree with all the "logi's don't need to be faster than their squad mates" people. I think I have been phasing it incorrectly. What I should have been saying is "Why do assaults need to be slower than you in order for you to Logi properly?". E.G- The difference between the sprinting speed of the Amarr Assault and the Amarr Logi is 0.35 m/s. [Amarr Logi = 6.37 , Amarr Assault = 6.72 meters per second unmodified by skills]. Where is the harm of standardizing their mobility values so that both move apace. If both also have the same base HP so that the proper Speed to HP ratio design of the game is affirmed then there is none. Though I personally lean towards a balance that is less homogenous so as to provide a bit more diversity in content within the game. But no, there is no balance implication/harm of maintaining equal survivability within the medium frames by giving them both identical speed and HP values. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

Eldest Dragon Lone--Wolves 498	Posted - 2015.05.28 00:06:00 - [201] - Quote I have this feeling im being forced into a slayer logi again. If the only upside to running an assault is sidearm and little bs bonus, then slayer logi here I come, if nothing else ccp buff the assault bonuses when logi/commando patch is released. Then I would probably stay in my assault suit.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 00:06:00 - [202] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Perhaps I should just wait and see. I find there nothing to complain about while running Logistics over Assault. I accept I am playing the support healer role and that typically results in less HP than tank or DPS counterparts. And in Dust less HP typically results in more mobility (or vice versa) as can be observed in how the frames relate to each other, the HP mods relate to each other, and the tanking types relate to each other. Net result, the OP. Where the dps type assault has more HP than it's - more mobile - support counterpart. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.28 00:07:00 - [203] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: True Adamance wrote: Perhaps I should just wait and see. I find there nothing to complain about while running Logistics over Assault. I accept I am playing the support healer role and that typically results in less HP than tank or DPS counterparts. Have you played any of the other Logis? Or are you speaking from the view of using the only actual combat focused Logi? The term combat focused logi is ridiculous. I don't active attack things using the Amarr Logi as if I were some Assault. Hell I fit for less total eHP than the other racial logis. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 775	Posted - 2015.05.28 00:22:00 - [204] - Quote very good. would like to point out all of the minmatar suits should have outstanding mobility to compensate for their low health. The PS2 Whiteboard Project https://docs.google.com/document/d/14yCg0oUUyqJUTCSzIRx4z_dhS1aXHbubI0Hb3H6x5Is/edit
Lynn Beck Delta Vanguard 6 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 00:24:00 - [205] - Quote I always thought the assault was supposed to be faster than the basic frame, because that's kinda its' job, to have a slightly higher HP to Speed ratio than say a Commando, which isn't designed to be the CQC super brawler that assaults are built to be. Commandos and logis get less HP per speed because they aren't the direct "in your face" combat role that Assaults and Heavies are, while Heavies are still super slow because they get the DPS and the HP. Making assaults slower would nudge them ever so closer to the Heavy area, but without the HP or DPS, so they'd be just straight up worse heavies. Logis getting the buff would make them the Assault of old, but with slightly less HP and more EQ so it would heavily encourage Slayer Logis. Commandos getting a slot buff i'm partial to, they were more or less fine as is, but with the way the Assault is getting nerfed, i'd almost certainly see a "heavy assault" becoming the new norm on the field, with Assaults being the wannabe scouts(who somehow don't even mind still being the 2nd slowest suit in the game) General John Ripper -BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse. This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation'
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 00:39:00 - [206] - Quote So assaults get nerfed without giving gall and cal assaults a decent bonus? PC meta heavy spam with even more logis behind their @sses and scout spam. While assaults get pushed behind the curtain. Assault suits more like basic suits. There is nothing enticing about assaults suits. None of their bonuses are something that helps them you know... assault! I am sorry but the reload and dispersion bonuses are not cutting the cheese for cal and gall assaults. Now they get nerfed. The assault class has no identity it doesn't know what they are. No good bonuses, some of the weapons for each race do not even excel nor work properly with their own suits. Like, example the Rail rifle currently is being wielded by gall assaults such as myself because i know it is a much better option than to use an assault rifle. I have zero business to use a duvolle on my gall assault because it is just not worth it other than for fun. When it comes to PC in a competitive setting that is where everything changes. Play styles change, suits change, weapon's personality changes. Why? why would i not use the gall's racial weapon in a competitive setting? because... it sucks. Simple as that. To use an AR on a gallente and shoot what it feels like a bb gun against a wall of tanked out proto heavies with infinite reps.The weapon even in CQC even though it is a CQC weapon it gets owned by the RR and CR. The racial bonus for it is just not good enough to help. Whilst my rail rifle in my gall assault it can get the job done against armor at close, medium, and long range so why should i bother to use a duvolle? i could go on and on about the caldari and ammar but that is just my thoughts of how the assault class as right now they have no identity, we do not even got their racial bonuses right much less what their role in the battle field is. To me they are currently just there to fill the game with content and that's about it. AE. C.B2013
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 00:52:00 - [207] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: None of their bonuses are something that helps them you know... assault! I am sorry but the reload and dispersion bonuses are not cutting the cheese for cal and gall assaults. Now they get nerfed. The assault class has no identity it doesn't know what they are. No good bonuses, some of the weapons for each race do not even excel nor work properly with their own suits. Like, example the Rail rifle currently is being wielded by gall assaults such as myself because i know it is a much better option than to use an assault rifle. I have zero business to use a duvolle on my gall assault because it is just not worth it other than for fun. When it comes to PC in a competitive setting that is where everything changes. Play styles change, suits change, weapon's personality changes. Why? why would i not use the gall's racial weapon in a competitive setting? because... it sucks. Simple as that. To use an AR on a gallente and shoot what it feels like a bb gun against a wall of tanked out proto heavies with infinite reps.The weapon even in CQC even though it is a CQC weapon it gets owned by the RR and CR. The racial bonus for it is just not good enough to help. Whilst my rail rifle in my gall assault it can get the job done against armor at close, medium, and long range so why should i bother to use a duvolle? i could go on and on about the caldari and ammar but that is just my thoughts of how the assault class as right now they have no identity, we do not even got their racial bonuses right much less what their role in the battle field is. To me they are currently just there to fill the game with content and that's about it. A rather vivid description of why the racial assault skills need to be revisited. Wouldn't hurt to have a clear vision on how light weapons, especially the rifle types, are supposed to work 'naked' compared with how they should work when optimized by synergy with their proper racial assault. +1 well said CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 01:19:00 - [208] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: True Adamance wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Wouldn't it make more sense just to buff logi eHP and nerf assault eHP? If it fits the HP/speed curve, sure. That's what I mean: logis are too squishy for their role Placing equipment, staying out of lines of fire, and repairing other suits....requires large quantities of HP? I don't think so. Staying out of the line of fire requires speed, and if that "line of fire" is defined by someone wielding a weapon, say an assault with a CR, AR, RR, or SCR, then that "line of fire" can advance on you, meaning your relative speed becomes very relevant indeed. Furthermore placing equipment (in a combat zone), staying out of the lines of fire (while saying directly in the thick of combat to rep and revive) et al most certainly do require some level of HP, what level of HP is directly proportional (inversely) to level of speed in many cases as you need enough speed to GTFO when under fire and enough HP to have sufficient time to employ your allotted amount of speed. Without the minimal levels of combined speed and HP needed to at least flee effectively then any role is in a very poor state indeed. (Sententials can't flee very well, but they still highlight this point as they have enough HP to tank incoming fire and kill the hostile forces, that however is clearly not what we want a support role to do so agility makes sense). Then by your statement, caldari as a race in dust is broken. They can not GTFO. They have neither the hp to tank effectively against armor or the speed/stamina/agility to outrun the amarr or minmatar, and soon perhaps the gallente. If the caldari are to be at the mercy of tougher, more damaging, longer lasting, faster opponents, it seems they will spend the majority of their time defending themselves from attack rather than attacking. I would assume then, that caldari would have superior defensive capabilities. Yet most players would say this isn't the case.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 01:29:00 - [209] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: None of their bonuses are something that helps them you know... assault! I am sorry but the reload and dispersion bonuses are not cutting the cheese for cal and gall assaults. Now they get nerfed. The assault class has no identity it doesn't know what they are. No good bonuses, some of the weapons for each race do not even excel nor work properly with their own suits. Like, example the Rail rifle currently is being wielded by gall assaults such as myself because i know it is a much better option than to use an assault rifle. I have zero business to use a duvolle on my gall assault because it is just not worth it other than for fun. When it comes to PC in a competitive setting that is where everything changes. Play styles change, suits change, weapon's personality changes. Why? why would i not use the gall's racial weapon in a competitive setting? because... it sucks. Simple as that. To use an AR on a gallente and shoot what it feels like a bb gun against a wall of tanked out proto heavies with infinite reps.The weapon even in CQC even though it is a CQC weapon it gets owned by the RR and CR. The racial bonus for it is just not good enough to help. Whilst my rail rifle in my gall assault it can get the job done against armor at close, medium, and long range so why should i bother to use a duvolle? i could go on and on about the caldari and ammar but that is just my thoughts of how the assault class as right now they have no identity, we do not even got their racial bonuses right much less what their role in the battle field is. To me they are currently just there to fill the game with content and that's about it. A rather vivid description of why the racial assault skills need to be revisited. Wouldn't hurt to have a clear vision on how light weapons, especially the rifle types, are supposed to work 'naked' compared with how they should work when optimized by synergy with their proper racial assault. +1 well said Yea but I'll point out that the situation was again an instance of expecting an anti shield weapon to perform competively against armor suits using anti armor weapons. Too much armor and not enough shield targets
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 01:34:00 - [210] - Quote True Adamance wrote: It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault No two factors affect survivability more than HP and Speed. Where both are low, we find underpowered units. Where both are high, we find overpowered units. Where one is low, and the other is high we find balanced units (all else held constant). It stands to reason that a tradeoff should exist between these two survivability factors. Out-of-the-box, a Logi has 200HP less than its Assault counterpart. This alone is sufficient reason, in my opinion, for them to be faster than Assaults. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 01:41:00 - [211] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: So assaults get nerfed without giving gall and cal assaults a decent bonus? PC meta heavy spam with even more logis behind their @sses and scout spam. While assaults get pushed behind the curtain. Assault suits more like basic suits. There is nothing enticing about assaults suits. None of their bonuses are something that helps them you know... assault! I am sorry but the reload and dispersion bonuses are not cutting the cheese for cal and gall assaults. Now they get nerfed. The assault class has no identity it doesn't know what they are. No good bonuses, some of the weapons for each race do not even excel nor work properly with their own suits. Like, example the Rail rifle currently is being wielded by gall assaults such as myself because i know it is a much better option than to use an assault rifle. I have zero business to use a duvolle on my gall assault because it is just not worth it other than for fun. When it comes to PC in a competitive setting that is where everything changes. Play styles change, suits change, weapon's personality changes. Why? why would i not use the gall's racial weapon in a competitive setting? because... it sucks. Simple as that. To use an AR on a gallente and shoot what it feels like a bb gun against a wall of tanked out proto heavies with infinite reps.The weapon even in CQC even though it is a CQC weapon it gets owned by the RR and CR. The racial bonus for it is just not good enough to help. Whilst my rail rifle in my gall assault it can get the job done against armor at close, medium, and long range so why should i bother to use a duvolle? i could go on and on about the caldari and ammar but that is just my thoughts of how the assault class as right now they have no identity, we do not even got their racial bonuses right much less what their role in the battle field is. To me they are currently just there to fill the game with content and that's about it. Because CCP never finished the puzzle. The whole picture includes weapons, the suits they're supposed to be used on, racial doctrines, and the synergy between them. So far CCP has treated weapons, and suits as separate things and no regard to racial doctrine or synergy. But has anyone asked Rattati why certain suits use certain weapons even when they're not racially aligned? Like minmatar logis and assaults running gallente shotguns, and plasma cannons? Why aren't those weapons effective on their own racial suits?
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 01:46:00 - [212] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault No two factors affect survivability more than HP and Speed. Where both are low, we find underpowered units. Where both are high, we find overpowered units. Where one is low, and the other is high we find balanced units (all else held constant). It stands to reason that a tradeoff should exist between these two survivability factors. Out-of-the-box, a Logi has 200HP less than its Assault counterpart. This alone is sufficient reason, in my opinion, for them to be faster than Assaults. People like to forget that to achieve Min Assault level HP on a Min Logi, I have to sacrifice every one of my slots to tank. Where as a Min Assault can have one extender, one energizer, damage mod, plate, kincat, and shield reg or dampener. I have equipment, but I'm slow and only have 30 more HP than a suit made for killing me, after sacrificing all my slots just to be able to take a punch. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 01:52:00 - [213] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Having a look at the curve lets say I make an Amarr Assault with all ferros and no biotics modifier. What run speed at am I looking at. At the same time if I do the same with the Min Assault, with no penalties or buff modules what speed am I looking at? According to a graph that we have to guess as to what the hard numbers are... Min Assault new values - 6.9 sprint Am Assault new values - 6.25 sprint Factor in Biotics lvl 5... Min Assault new values - 7.24 sprint Am Assault new values - 6.56 sprint Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 01:52:00 - [214] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault No two factors affect survivability more than HP and Speed. Where both are low, we find underpowered units. Where both are high, we find overpowered units. Where one is low, and the other is high we find balanced units (all else held constant). It stands to reason that a tradeoff should exist between these two survivability factors. Out-of-the-box, a Logi has 200HP less than its Assault counterpart. This alone is sufficient reason, in my opinion, for them to be faster than Assaults. Yet in eve, logis have more eHP and are far slower. Balanced yes? Then why were the "killer bees" a problem? The had more hp than assaults and were slower, which exactly what they're going back to. The difference between a logi in eve and a logi in dust is that logis in eve don't have anywhere near the offensive capabilities of assaults. Their dps is non existent. In dust though lol, they have exactly the same dps as assaults. An assault with an AR and a logi with an AR deal the same exact damage. That's why we had problems with scouts being better assaults too months ago. CCP doesn't want to give weapon damage bonuses to separate offensive roles from defensive or support roles.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 01:55:00 - [215] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Then why were the "killer bees" a problem? The had more hp than assaults and were slower, which exactly what they're going back to. Will a Logi built to slay truly have more HP than an Assault built to slay? If so, how? Their base HP are separated by a 200HP spread. Not to mention, fitting restrictions and recovery rates. It'd be nice if we could get Cyrus to wire up protofits for test builds! Edit: The last thing I want to see is a return of Slayer Scouts or Slayer Logis. If this is even a remote possibility, I'd fully support implementing harsher plate penalties for one or both classes. I believe this can be done, as it's been done before with Scouts and armor-plate strafe penalty. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:00:00 - [216] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault No two factors affect survivability more than HP and Speed. Where both are low, we find underpowered units. Where both are high, we find overpowered units. Where one is low, and the other is high we find balanced units (all else held constant). It stands to reason that a tradeoff should exist between these two survivability factors. Out-of-the-box, a Logi has 200HP less than its Assault counterpart. This alone is sufficient reason, in my opinion, for them to be faster than Assaults. People like to forget that to achieve Min Assault level HP on a Min Logi, I have to sacrifice every one of my slots to tank. Where as a Min Assault can have one extender, one energizer, damage mod, plate, kincat, and shield reg or dampener. I have equipment, but I'm slow and only have 30 more HP than a suit made for killing me, after sacrificing all my slots just to be able to take a punch. Am I understanding correctly that if you fit your MN Logi to behave like a MN Assault, you end 30 more HP than a MN Assault without any modules equipped? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:08:00 - [217] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Then by your statement, caldari as a race in dust is broken. They can not GTFO. They have neither the hp to tank effectively against armor or the speed/stamina/agility to outrun the amarr or minmatar, and soon perhaps the gallente. If the caldari are to be at the mercy of tougher, more damaging, longer lasting, faster opponents, it seems they will spend the majority of their time defending themselves from attack rather than attacking. I would assume then, that caldari would have superior defensive capabilities. Yet most players would say this isn't the case. If you are speaking of a heads up fire fight you must also include dps output and force projection. I mentioned neither of these within the context of my prior post because they are by role meant to be lessor from logi than assault so it was implicit that the logi would lose on those metrics, it was further the context of my post to generally compare values within races rather than between races by and large. But if we wanted to play out the situation, having a cal assault vs a min assault both using ARs (so no racial skills applied), neither running damage mods (so no distortion of the damage profile applies), and both having the same HP values including mods, then yes presuming the min still held a higher level of mobility after consideration of it's fitted mods, but did so while meeting the HP value of the Cal, I would say the Cal is under-performing in that context. However the situation you outline is not the one we find in the game, nor is it a direct application to the prior post I made because it introduces the added effects of things like ranged application of dps, and thus draws in the effects of things like optimal and falloff damage applications. Much like the ability of the scout to survive by moving quickly, use of a RR (let alone SR) allows survival via distance from the point of conflict while still doing damage to the hostile forces. Support actions by contrast (aside from arguably scanning) cannot be done in that manner. You cannot rep someone from RR range, you cannot deploy foothold uplinks for dynamic map mobility from a shooters perch, you cannot apply ammo nanites to a squad mate at sniper range. Where as the faction fit ck.0 wielding a RR certainly can kill an ak.0 or gk.0 outside of their racial weapons optimal range, which is not a very defense oriented action all things considered None of which is to say that armor vs shield balance, rifle balance, or racial balance are perfect, but they certainly do have conceptual trends to advise them clearly and those trends certainly do not conflict with the base method of an inverse relationship between raw HP and speed. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:09:00 - [218] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: None of their bonuses are something that helps them you know... assault! I am sorry but the reload and dispersion bonuses are not cutting the cheese for cal and gall assaults. Now they get nerfed. The assault class has no identity it doesn't know what they are. No good bonuses, some of the weapons for each race do not even excel nor work properly with their own suits. Like, example the Rail rifle currently is being wielded by gall assaults such as myself because i know it is a much better option than to use an assault rifle. I have zero business to use a duvolle on my gall assault because it is just not worth it other than for fun. When it comes to PC in a competitive setting that is where everything changes. Play styles change, suits change, weapon's personality changes. Why? why would i not use the gall's racial weapon in a competitive setting? because... it sucks. Simple as that. To use an AR on a gallente and shoot what it feels like a bb gun against a wall of tanked out proto heavies with infinite reps.The weapon even in CQC even though it is a CQC weapon it gets owned by the RR and CR. The racial bonus for it is just not good enough to help. Whilst my rail rifle in my gall assault it can get the job done against armor at close, medium, and long range so why should i bother to use a duvolle? i could go on and on about the caldari and ammar but that is just my thoughts of how the assault class as right now they have no identity, we do not even got their racial bonuses right much less what their role in the battle field is. To me they are currently just there to fill the game with content and that's about it. A rather vivid description of why the racial assault skills need to be revisited. Wouldn't hurt to have a clear vision on how light weapons, especially the rifle types, are supposed to work 'naked' compared with how they should work when optimized by synergy with their proper racial assault. +1 well said Yea but I'll point out that the situation was again an instance of expecting an anti shield weapon to perform competively against armor suits using anti armor weapons. Too much armor and not enough shield targets Not at all opposed to the balance between armor and shields being looked at. Actually I tend to favor a review of it. But that is outside the scope of this thread as it has no pertinence to the OP. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:12:00 - [219] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault No two factors affect survivability more than HP and Speed. Where both are low, we find underpowered units. Where both are high, we find overpowered units. Where one is low, and the other is high we find balanced units (all else held constant). It stands to reason that a tradeoff should exist between these two survivability factors. Out-of-the-box, a Logi has 200HP less than its Assault counterpart. This alone is sufficient reason, in my opinion, for them to be faster than Assaults. People like to forget that to achieve Min Assault level HP on a Min Logi, I have to sacrifice every one of my slots to tank. Where as a Min Assault can have one extender, one energizer, damage mod, plate, kincat, and shield reg or dampener. I have equipment, but I'm slow and only have 30 more HP than a suit made for killing me, after sacrificing all my slots just to be able to take a punch. Am I understanding correctly that if you fit your MN Logi to behave like a MN Assault, you end 30 more HP than a MN Assault without any modules equipped? All modules fitted, all equipment fitted. Min Logi ends up with 21 more HP. Min Assault using 6 different modules, Min Logi using 2 (all shield and armor). The HP gap would be 0 if I didn't use a basic armor plate, and used another ferro or reactive plate. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:14:00 - [220] - Quote What's up on the curve with the Basic Medium and the Assault differences in speed? Aren't they functionally the same suit? "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:15:00 - [221] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault No two factors affect survivability more than HP and Speed. Where both are low, we find underpowered units. Where both are high, we find overpowered units. Where one is low, and the other is high we find balanced units (all else held constant). It stands to reason that a tradeoff should exist between these two survivability factors. Out-of-the-box, a Logi has 200HP less than its Assault counterpart. This alone is sufficient reason, in my opinion, for them to be faster than Assaults. People like to forget that to achieve Min Assault level HP on a Min Logi, I have to sacrifice every one of my slots to tank. Where as a Min Assault can have one extender, one energizer, damage mod, plate, kincat, and shield reg or dampener. I have equipment, but I'm slow and only have 30 more HP than a suit made for killing me, after sacrificing all my slots just to be able to take a punch. Am I understanding correctly that if you fit your MN Logi to behave like a MN Assault, you end 30 more HP than a MN Assault without any modules equipped? All modules fitted, all equipment fitted. Min Logi ends up with 21 more HP. Min Assault using 6 different modules, Min Logi using 2 (all shield and armor). The HP gap would be 0 if I didn't use a basic armor plate, and used another ferro or reactive plate. By different, you mean not-HP related? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:16:00 - [222] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Then why were the "killer bees" a problem? The had more hp than assaults and were slower, which exactly what they're going back to. Will a Logi built to slay truly have more HP than an Assault built to slay? If so, how? Their base HP are separated by a 200HP spread. Not to mention, fitting restrictions and recovery rates. It'd be nice if we could get Cyrus to wire up protofits for test builds! Edit: The last thing I want to see is a return of Slayer Scouts or Slayer Logis. If this is even a remote possibility, I'd fully support implementing harsher plate penalties for one or both classes. I believe this can be done, as it's been done before with Scouts and armor-plate strafe penalty. The cal logi has an extra low slot and pg mods have been moved to high slots. Stack armor then supplement with shield extenders for a bricked dual tank. So it may be possible to just brick it
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:21:00 - [223] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault No two factors affect survivability more than HP and Speed. Where both are low, we find underpowered units. Where both are high, we find overpowered units. Where one is low, and the other is high we find balanced units (all else held constant). It stands to reason that a tradeoff should exist between these two survivability factors. Out-of-the-box, a Logi has 200HP less than its Assault counterpart. This alone is sufficient reason, in my opinion, for them to be faster than Assaults. Yet in eve, logis have more eHP and are far slower. Balanced yes? And far more ability to apply force projection to their support activities. If a dust logi could lock and rep targets at sniper ranges being slow would pose far less of an issue. Also EVE logi don't have any limiter (eWar aside) beyond range for their applications, there are no LoS considerations merely a question of range within the theater of engagement and a HUD that allows application of support without moving around find, face, etc the recipient (also better locking mechanics, and a battle environment in which generally speaking weapons must lock before they are fired). DeathwindRising wrote: Then why were the "killer bees" a problem? The had more hp than assaults and were slower, which exactly what they're going back to. The difference between a logi in eve and a logi in dust is that logis in eve don't have anywhere near the offensive capabilities of assaults. Their dps is non existent. True, the other difference is that they have massively more powerful support actions. When was the last time a single dust logi, or a dust logi pair, could out rep the incoming damage of multiple simultaneous sources of incoming fire, so much so that "primary the logi" wasn't just a tactical choice but almost an outright necessity. I've said before, and will happily reiterate here, that I will lay down all weapons in a heart beat, having no guns of any kind on the logi suit if it means the ability to apply shield and armor reps with EVE level magnitude and range. DeathwindRising wrote: In dust though lol, they have exactly the same dps as assaults. An assault with an AR and a logi with an AR deal the same exact damage. That's why we had problems with scouts being better assaults too months ago. CCP doesn't want to give weapon damage bonuses to separate offensive roles from defensive or support roles. It's inaccurate to say they have the same damage profile as assaults, an Amarr logi with a scrambler rifle or LR cannot get as much sustained dps out of it as an Amarr assault despite the weapon itself having the same base stats. Now I fully and readily grant that the racial skills tide to the assault could use a look and some polish as long standing consensus seems to be that they are lack luster (much as the logi and commando frames are) but as much as that mechanic needs a look and some love it doesn't change the validity of the speed to HP ratio. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:32:00 - [224] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Then why were the "killer bees" a problem? The had more hp than assaults and were slower, which exactly what they're going back to. Will a Logi built to slay truly have more HP than an Assault built to slay? If so, how? Their base HP are separated by a 200HP spread. Not to mention, fitting restrictions and recovery rates. It'd be nice if we could get Cyrus to wire up protofits for test builds! Edit: The last thing I want to see is a return of Slayer Scouts or Slayer Logis. If this is even a remote possibility, I'd fully support implementing harsher plate penalties for one or both classes. I believe this can be done, as it's been done before with Scouts and armor-plate strafe penalty. The cal logi has an extra low slot and pg mods have been moved to high slots. Stack armor then supplement with shield extenders for a bricked dual tank. So it may be possible to just brick it Understood. Ignoring speed for now, I'm getting: Logi ck.0 HS: Cmp Shield (x4), Basic PG LS: Cmp Ferro (x4) PW: Pro Rail GR: Basic Flux EQ: Pro Hive, Empty, Empty 958 HP (515/443), 0 free CPU, 7 free PG Assault ck.0 HS: Cmp Shield (x4), Cmp PG LS: Cmp Ferro (x3) PW: Pro Rail SW: Adv Bolt GR: Basic Flux EQ: Pro Hive 1058 HP (617/441), 52 free CPU, 1 free PG I completely agree that at the HP spread between these units is too close, especially if the Logi were to be made substantially faster than the Assault: Logi - 5 m/s movement, 7.35 sprint Assault - 4.6 m/s movement, 6.76 sprint ^ Assuming values from Page 1 Cross, Pokey, Booby? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:41:00 - [225] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Then why were the "killer bees" a problem? The had more hp than assaults and were slower, which exactly what they're going back to. Will a Logi built to slay truly have more HP than an Assault built to slay? If so, how? Their base HP are separated by a 200HP spread. Not to mention, fitting restrictions and recovery rates. It'd be nice if we could get Cyrus to wire up protofits for test builds! Edit: The last thing I want to see is a return of Slayer Scouts or Slayer Logis. If this is even a remote possibility, I'd fully support implementing harsher plate penalties for one or both classes. I believe this can be done, as it's been done before with Scouts and armor-plate strafe penalty. The cal logi has an extra low slot and pg mods have been moved to high slots. Stack armor then supplement with shield extenders for a bricked dual tank. So it may be possible to just brick it Understood. Ignoring speed for now, I'm getting: Logi ck.0 HS: Cmp Shield (x4), Basic PG LS: Cmp Ferro (x4) PW: Pro Rail GR: Basic Flux EQ: Pro Hive, Empty, Empty 958 HP (515/443), 0 free CPU, 7 free PG Assault ck.0 HS: Cmp Shield (x4), Cmp PG LS: Cmp Ferro (x3) PW: Pro Rail SW: Adv Bolt GR: Basic Flux EQ: Pro Hive 1058 HP (617/441), 52 free CPU, 1 free PG I completely agree that the HP spread between these units is too close, especially if the Logi is substantially faster than the Assault. Ideas, Cross? This is part of why I advocate the Cal logi getting a 4th equipment slot and losing that extra Low Slot. It is also why despite my usual inclinations I would actually support a requirement that logi fill their equipment slots. Between the two I think we'll see a different profile. (Note, compact hives play a bit of havoc with this but they likely need toned down anyway so assume for current fittings that only one compact hive can be used to fill an EQ slot when filling all required slots. To make it easy to use current proto fits just fill the three slots present, leave the one Low Power slot empty and make sure there is enough remaining fitting to accommodate a compact hive thus simulating that 4th equipment slot). CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Golden Day Corrosive Synergy No Context 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:48:00 - [226] - Quote Shields.... Im just a glorified blueberry
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:57:00 - [227] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: By different, you mean not-HP related? Correct. Advanced fit. All modules, weapons, and equipment filled. Min Assault has 21 less HP than the tanked Logi. The Assault has one proto shield extender, one proto damage mod, and an enhanced energizer in its highs. The Assault has one proto kincat, one proto ferroscale plate, and either a proto regulator or a proto dampener. It has an advanced weapon, a basic sidearm, an advanced grenade, and a compact nanohive. The Logi has three proto shield extenders in its highs. The Logi has two enhanced ferroscale, and one basic ferroscale in its lows. It has an advanced weapon, a basic grenade, an advanced rep tool, a proto hive, and a proto link. Assault has 645 HP Logi has 666 HP Assault has better regen for stamina and shields, 1.25 m/s better speed, better DPS, better dampening, and better survivability with the rep hives. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:58:00 - [228] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Logi ck.0 958 HP (515/443), 0 free CPU, 7 free PG Assault ck.0 1058 HP (617/441), 52 free CPU, 1 free PG I completely agree that the HP spread between these units is too close, especially if the Logi is substantially faster than the Assault. Ideas, Cross? This is part of why I advocate the Cal logi getting a 4th equipment slot and losing that extra Low Slot. It is also why despite my usual inclinations I would actually support a requirement that logi fill their equipment slots. Between the two I think we'll see a different profile. (Note, compact hives play a bit of havoc with this but they likely need toned down anyway so assume for current fittings that only one compact hive can be used to fill an EQ slot when filling all required slots. To make it easy to use current proto fits just fill the three slots present, leave the one Low Power slot empty and make sure there is enough remaining fitting to accommodate a compact hive thus simulating that 4th equipment slot). If we swap the CalLogi's extra Low Slot for one EQ we're still at 875 HP. That's ~20% less HP than the Assault, and the Logi will be ~9% faster (assuming speeds on Page 1). As a point of reference, scout base mobility is presently ~8% removed from Assault base mobility at a base HP spread of > 200%. Still seems too close to me. Logis aren't my field though. What am I missing? I may be misreading, but Rattati also mentions here normalizing fitting capacity to help the CalLogi. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:03:00 - [229] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Understood. Ignoring speed for now, I'm getting: Logi ck.0 HS: Cmp Shield (x4), Basic PG LS: Cmp Ferro (x4) PW: Pro Rail GR: Basic Flux EQ: Pro Hive, Empty, Empty 958 HP (515/443), 0 free CPU, 7 free PG Assault ck.0 HS: Cmp Shield (x4), Cmp PG LS: Cmp Ferro (x3) PW: Pro Rail SW: Adv Bolt GR: Basic Flux EQ: Pro Hive 1058 HP (617/441), 52 free CPU, 1 free PG I completely agree that at the HP spread between these units is too close, especially if the Logi were to be made substantially faster than the Assault: Logi - 5 m/s movement, 7.35 sprint Assault - 4.6 m/s movement, 6.76 sprint ^ Assuming values from Page 1 Cross, Pokey, Booby? Instances like this is why some of us Logis are advocating for equipment slots being forced to be fitted to obtain a valid fitting. Remember, the Cal Logi was the only slayer logi, as it had the bonus to shield extender modules, and benefited from the most OP gun ever, the dreaded TAC AR. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:05:00 - [230] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: On a second note... making sure all equipment slots are filled is almost useless, too... Slayer logi with 3 or 4 compact nanohives? Make all equipment slots mandatory + increase CPU/PG fitting bonuses for logis + reduce CPU/PG for logis = plenty of CPU/PG for equipment but not much left for brick tanking and proto weaponry. exactly "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:06:00 - [231] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Remember, the Cal Logi was the only slayer logi, as it had the bonus to shield extender modules ... At risk of derailment, I seem to recall running into packs of Nyain San running GalLogi immediately after the CalLogi was nerfed. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:12:00 - [232] - Quote alias lycan wrote: Cross Atu wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. As a CPM and thus community rep I feel it important to confirm, publicly and on the record that CCP Rattati is not a sufferer of melissophobia, unlike some poor unfortunates in our community. Rattati wasnt around long enough to remember. The real vets still have scars from the numerous stings. I believe rattati mentioned something about cal logis being punished for old sins. Well the sin was it was the only suit that could have 600 shielding with room to spare. I've played longer than you, or a matter of fact anyone here. I was the first alpha tester and have played every build ever since "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 243	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:13:00 - [233] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: On a second note... making sure all equipment slots are filled is almost useless, too... Slayer logi with 3 or 4 compact nanohives? Make all equipment slots mandatory + increase CPU/PG fitting bonuses for logis + reduce CPU/PG for logis = plenty of CPU/PG for equipment but not much left for brick tanking and proto weaponry. exactly As long as my current logi fits remain viable. I dont stack armor plates, i stack reactives . Petition to ban the trainyard map.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:19:00 - [234] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: So I guess for me I would say to all of the Assault players out there: "Assuming this speed/hp ratio goes through, what sort of changes to Assaults would you want to see in order to make the tradeoff between Assault and Logistics worth it, and solidify the Assault as the better slayer suit?" Assuming eHP / Speed is implemented as described, spitballing ... Caveat: Idea #1 assumes that other units are threatening to encroach upon Assault slayer territory. This potentiality is arguably unlikely; Idea #1 is presented as a contingency. Idea #1) Wire all Assaults with a higher sprint multiplier than other frames (credit to Ripley Riley). Thinking short bursts of speed for moving from cover-to-cover or getting to the frontlines faster. This should be a "special property" unique to Assault frames. Regular Sprint Multiplier (current ---> future) Assault Frame: mCharProp.movementSprint.groundSpeedScale = 1.4 GA/CA Assault Base Speed: 5 m/s ----> 4.6 m/s MN Assault Base Speed: 5.3 m/s ---> 4.8 m/s AM Assault Base Speed: 4.8 m/s ---> 4.3 m/s GA/CA Assault Sprint Speed: 7.35 m/s ---> 6.76 m/s MN Assault Sprint Speed: 7.79 m/s ---> 7.06 m/s AM Assault Sprint Speed: 7.06 m/s ---> 6.43 m/s Special Sprint Multiplier (proposed) Assault Frame: mCharProp.movementSprint.groundSpeedScale = 1.5 GA/CA Assault Base Speed: 4.6 m/s MN Assault Base Speed: 4.8 m/s AM Assault Base Speed: 4.3 m/s GA/CA Assault Sprint Speed: 7.25 m/s MN Assault Sprint Speed: 7.56 m/s AM Assault Sprint Speed: 6.77 m/s If my maths are correct, the MN Assault with this "special sprint multiplier" will sprint at a slightly lower speed (7.56 m/s) than the AM Scout and the future MN Logi (7.72 m/s). Kindly note that only sprint speeds are affected by this proposed "special multiplier" and that base movement speeds (and other speeds derived from base movement) remain exactly as Rattati has outlined on Page 1. Idea #2) Improve Gal and Cal Assault bonuses: * Gal Assault: Replace bonus to dispersion with bonus to rate-of-fire * Cal Assault: Replace bonus to reload with bonus to kick while aiming-down-sights Disclaimer: Part-Time Assault Making Assault sprint faster is a very smart idea. Maybe reducing Logi stamina as well. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:23:00 - [235] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: If we swap the CalLogi's extra Low Slot for one EQ, the above loadout weighs in at 875 HP. That's ~20% less HP than the similarly fit Assault, and the Logi will be ~9% faster (assuming speeds on Page 1). As a point of reference, scout base mobility is presently ~8% removed from that of Assault at a base HP spread in excess of 200%. To me, this tanky CalLogi's HP still seems too close a similarly fit CalAssault, even with one less low-slot. Logis aren't my field though. What am I missing? I may be misreading, but Rattati also mentions here normalizing fitting capacity to help the CalLogi. Don't forget that there are no hard numbers as of yet. Just the mysterious graph. This entire thread was designed to point out flaws, as some have, and to make counter proposals. I think the speed gap, based on the mystery graph, is too high. The Assaults should be faster than Basic, slightly slower than Logis. Your base HP spread for Scouts is with no modules fitted, yes? If so, then the same can be said for Logis. They have a roughly 70% HP spread, and this is across the same sized suit (medium frame). Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:30:00 - [236] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Making Assault sprint faster is a very smart idea. Maybe reducing Logi stamina as well. That was why I asked originally. Logi's movement speed needs to be fast enough to keep up with a sprinting heavy at the minimum. Their sprint speed doesn't need to be faster than Assaults, but it needs to be closer. The Logis already have less stamina, and a slower regen. Why nerf it more if we go with the Assaults still sprinting (slightly) faster than the Logis? Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:33:00 - [237] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Making Assault sprint faster is a very smart idea. Maybe reducing Logi stamina as well. This I can get behind. Though you'd have to be careful so that it doesn't "bleed over", as Adipem puts it, into the scout role. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:35:00 - [238] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Your base HP spread for Scouts is with no modules fitted, yes? If so, then the same can be said for Logis. They have a roughly 70% HP spread, and this is across the same sized suit (medium frame). Not exactly. I was comparing the HP/Speed tradeoff (-20% / +9%) of the specific case outlined above (tanky assault ck.0 vs tanky logi ck.0) to the HP/Speed tradeoff of naked Scout to naked Assault (-215% / +9%). In both cases, the units are similarly fit. Moot point; Rattati answered the question. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:36:00 - [239] - Quote Going to echo Kalante's concerns about the Assaults. The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory. Amarr Assaults -maybe- a problem because they have a really good slayer bonus toward a very powerful weapon system (scramblers/assault scramblers). This nerf is universal though and while it's great that it helps Logis, it's nerfing Assaults for the sake of 'progression' and 'making sense' with no real cause. I'd imagine someone (probably a CPM) sat behind the curtain and nudged this change along with the good intentions of making Logis and Commandos more viable but at the same time did one of the following: a) Instituted a level of anti-assault bias in what can only be considered an unnecessary Assault nerf. b) Figured that the hit to Assaults would be temporary and that we'd be okay with taking that hit until changes were made to re-balance us (even though we're still waiting for decent bonuses) c) Simply overlooked it. None of those are a good justification for why we shouldn't iron this out -now- and honestly, if your problem is the Minmatar Assault, hit the Minmatar Assault. Leave the Assaults at their current speed, buff the Logis, and then we get around to having more viable bonuses for Assaults -THEN- we can nerf them. At the moment it's wholly unnecessary and the only real reason to reduce their speed is to satiate a level of OCD in the EHP/Speed curve. EDIT: Mandatory equipment fitting on Logi's is also a bad move because then you're just going to have people clamoring for Type-II Logi's that are more oriented for combat. They're doing that -already- so adding ammo to the argument isn't helping much. I'm all down for decreasing PG/CPU and decreasing fitting costs for equipment though. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:36:00 - [240] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: I think it's rapidly becoming clear that the debate on this topic is going to come down to whether it's possible within the proposed "speed vs eHP" trade off paradigm to make additional changes that result in balance. The issue here is that we have these knobs to turn where suit balance is concerned: - Fitting (PG/CPU) - Role+Racial bonuses - Speed and speed related statistics (the idea of messing with the sprint modifier is novel) - Slot layout - Base HP and other HP related statistics (EG repair rate and shield delay) Of all these, speed and HP are probably the least discrete. What I mean by a "discrete" variable is that even the smallest change in that variable has a high potential to change balance. Slot layout, in particular, is extremely discrete just based on the evidence that the different suit classes provide. By tying HP and speed together in a firm relationship, we lose a "knob" from the above list. We can still twist the twin HP-speed subsystem knob, but they can't really be twisted independently. The ensuing discussion has focused around the other knobs: Slot layout. suit bonuses, and combinations of those. Here's my question that I don't really have the answer to because it's hard, but really needs to be considered: Is it possible to achieve a reasonable state of balance after adopting the HP-speed tie-together given the highly discrete nature of slot layouts and to a lesser extent suit bonuses? It's possible that the answer is no, which puts us in Kage's camp. In that case we can still tie speed and HP together in the proposed way, but tune that combined "knob" to a different position. On a different note, I think it's important to note that speed doesn't affect survivability exclusively. Speed is also a substantial contributor to aggression potential. I think that's one of the reasons I'm a bit afraid of the "killer bees" returning. From an anecdotal perspective, I run ferroscale plates as opposed to regular ones. It's not that the speed necessarily just keeps me alive more than the HP bonus, it's that I can also choose to take fights and chase down fleeing opponents more readily. In different skype chats yesterday, i was discussing this a lot. The designs need to make sense, intuitively. In order of priority, imagine a pyramid Slot progression needs to make sense, within roles and between roles PG/CPU capacity as they relate to slots and their layout HP and Speed are inverse, that's just physics and again intuitive These 3 principles form the foundation for Dropsuits. While they don't make sense, all the small things on top don't really matter. That's why I am not tackling role bonuses, because the foundation is cracked and not worth building on. When all roles have the proper foundation, we can move forward with finetuning 1) I intend for Logis and Assault and Basics to share the same PG/CPU and possibly total number of slots. The way to balance it is to require logis to fit equipment, and give each role the specific fitting bonuses for the role. 1a) We did this for Sentinels and Assaults, and it worked very well by aligning them and normalizing based on Scouts, that were the best in class. Just by aligning slots and capacity/slot, with a dash of hp, they became viable. Now, after some time has passed, we can take the next step. Logis and Commandos are undeniably the least viable specialty roles, and Assault are very strong. If it means they need to take a kincat instead of a plate, then so be it. I have already taken into account 2) Now when they all have a normalized and sound progression, we can finally move to where I want to be. I want to stop messing around, and patching dropsuits. They need to be stable and a fixed point. I then want to balance with PG/CPU costs and power of Gear, and role bonuses. Is the Caldari Assault bad? Maybe, but then we figure out the tunable parameters we have instead of always messing around with the foundation. Shield regen, cost of regulators, fiting bonus to Rail tech, etc. In short, talking about role bonuses now, is like putting a bandage on a broken leg. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:36:00 - [241] - Quote True Adamance wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Making Assault sprint faster is a very smart idea. Maybe reducing Logi stamina as well. This I can get behind. Though you'd have to be careful so that it doesn't "bleed over", as Adipem puts it, into the scout role. I believe a Sprint Multiplier change for Assaults from 1.4 to 1.5 would be safe, as the AM Scout's base sprint would be higher than the MN Assault's base sprint. All credit to Ripley Riley for this idea: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2773122#post2773122 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:38:00 - [242] - Quote True Adamance wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. See that's where it gets really tricky because you're then dealing with a qualitative analysis of relative worth between Assault Bonuses (and you're right only 2 are really worth it) and having more equipment. I personally feel that people seem to put more worth in the equipment than they should, mostly due to leftover fear from when Logistics were stupidly broken, but again that's just a personal assessment. I think what Rattati is really going for here is "How can we make all suits feel roughly equally survivable?" and I feel that's a good direction to go with it. And as you have stated, the tradeoff of speed vs defense makes the suits 'equal' which I also think is a good thing. At which point my main question is "How can we make the Assault Bonuses feel like they're a fair tradeoff from the Logistics equipment?" Sadly I fear the answer is probably "Well if only the Commandos and Assaults were combined into one suit....." but that gets really tricky because it would basically mean the removal of Commandos from the game, which would likely be a nightmare on many fronts. Plus I have some pretty strong personal bias in that I love my Commando Q_Q So I guess for me I would say to all of the Assault players out there: "Assuming this speed/hp ratio goes through, what sort of changes to Assaults would you want to see in order to make the tradeoff between Assault and Logistics worth it, and solidify the Assault as the better slayer suit?" I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the qualitative value. I do think the assaults' bonuses are canceled out by the logitics' bonuses, so I don't count it as a point for the worth of assaults vs logistics and their equipment. Anyway, I'm still not convinced the assaults need a speed nerf. I would be alright if it was something small, but the proposal is far too drastic, and undermines the assault's role of being a mobile frontline fighter that rushes objectives. Furthermore, I think the logis would be in a good place with the speed buff without having to nerf assaults. I meant to say "Its NOT really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis," but I didn't edit the post fast enough. Seems like you know what I meant, but felt I should clarify. This is what I mean. Assaults are as Kage put it "Mobile Frontline Fighters that rush objectives". This is their fundamental role. Ensuring that their are always players on the frontlines pushing for the objective. Speed nerfs directly and rather significantly hinder this role. Only one suit at this time to my knowledge is "bleeding over" into the Scout Class the others seem relatively balanced in terms of their movement speeds without modifying them via modules. Logistics I can understand want to have some bonuses but in being one I realise I don't need to be faster than an Assault to do my job well, if anything I want to roughly be the same speed as them as there is no point in out running the team I am supposed to be supporting, if I am with multiple forms of equipment then I am directly bleeding into the Scout Class. Were my Assault's Speed nerfed and the Logi buffed significantly I would just tank my Amarr Logi better and use that as an Assault suit for its speed and being able to carry equipment. If the speed values were standardised or the Logi buffed to Assault Speeds the suits would still in their current forms retain enough unique traits to merit the use of the Assault. Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:41:00 - [243] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Logi ck.0 HS: Cmp Shield (x4), Basic PG LS: Cmp Ferro (x4) PW: Pro Rail GR: Basic Flux EQ: Pro Hive, Empty, Empty 958 HP (515/443), 0 free CPU, 7 free PG Assault ck.0 HS: Cmp Shield (x4), Cmp PG LS: Cmp Ferro (x3) PW: Pro Rail SW: Adv Bolt GR: Basic Flux EQ: Pro Hive 1058 HP (617/441), 52 free CPU, 1 free PG I completely agree that the HP spread between these units is too close, especially if the Logi is substantially faster than the Assault. Ideas, Cross? This is part of why I advocate the Cal logi getting a 4th equipment slot and losing that extra Low Slot. It is also why despite my usual inclinations I would actually support a requirement that logi fill their equipment slots. Between the two I think we'll see a different profile. (Note, compact hives play a bit of havoc with this but they likely need toned down anyway so assume for current fittings that only one compact hive can be used to fill an EQ slot when filling all required slots. To make it easy to use current proto fits just fill the three slots present, leave the one Low Power slot empty and make sure there is enough remaining fitting to accommodate a compact hive thus simulating that 4th equipment slot). If we swap out the CalLogi's extra Low Slot for +1 EQ, the above loadout weighs in at 875 HP. That's ~20% less HP than the similarly fit Assault, and the Logi will be ~9% faster (assuming speeds on Page 1). As a point of reference, scout base mobility is presently ~8% removed from that of Assault at a base HP spread in excess of 200%. To me, this tanky CalLogi's HP (even at -1 Low) still seems too close to a similarly fit CalAssault. Logis aren't my field though. What am I missing? I may be misreading, but Rattati also mentions here normalizing fitting capacity to help the CalLogi. Check again, even without including the requirement to fit a 4th slot the logi fitting outlined above is invalid, and that is with proto fits assuming max skills. To fit the logi from above as outlined, assuming the proper change to 4th slot (and using only a compact hive in that slot) requires fitting only one basic ferro in the lows. Actual total HP when corrected for valid fit, including all skill buffs; 666 HP (515/151) or 292 below prior listed total. That's 392 HP below the values listed for the Assault. So that's ~37.05% lower than the assault. We also have to consider Stamina and Stamina regeneration as well, because the Min for all it's speed wouldn't be very mobile if not for it's comparative Sta totals. And the Cal scout, for example, has 25 more base Sta, and 10 more base regen. So that scout has the ~8% movement speed you mentioned, but it also has ~22.5% more Sta and ~33% more regen. Honestly I'm not sure applying a simple % Delta change is the most accurate way to approach this, but if it is then we shouldn't be comparing Scout to Assault, we should be establishing a use case baseline by comparing Scout to Sentinel then the values could be scaled within each race. But even that raises the question, if % shift is the thing to look at, is that % shift the same for each race? Should it be? Should it not be? How much % deviation between the races is acceptable? Then compare the two differing % shifts there. Also, these shifts are, if derived from fully fitted frames, including a question of slot values which - while certainly a valid consideration - adds another layer of complexity. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:42:00 - [244] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now. My likes. Have all of them. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:43:00 - [245] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Honestly I'm not sure applying a simple % Delta change is the most accurate way to approach this ... Agree 110% ... I was only using those values as a point-of-reference. An in-context, all-else-assumed-equal, potentially ill-thought point-of-reference. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:45:00 - [246] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: When all roles have the proper foundation, we can move forward with finetuning 1) I intend for Logis and Assault and Basics to share the same PG/CPU and possibly total number of slots. The way to balance it is to require logis to fit equipment, and give each role the specific fitting bonuses for the role. 1a) We did this for Sentinels and Assaults, and it worked very well by aligning them and normalizing based on Scouts, that were the best in class. Just by aligning slots and capacity/slot, with a dash of hp, they became viable. Now, after some time has passed, we can take the next step. Logis and Commandos are undeniably the least viable specialty roles, and Assault are very strong. If it means they need to take a kincat instead of a plate, then so be it. I have already taken into account 2) Now when they all have a normalized and sound progression, we can finally move to where I want to be. I want to stop messing around, and patching dropsuits. They need to be stable and a fixed point. I then want to balance with PG/CPU costs and power of Gear, and role bonuses. Is the Caldari Assault bad? Maybe, but then we figure out the tunable parameters we have instead of always messing around with the foundation. Shield regen, cost of regulators, fiting bonus to Rail tech, etc. In short, talking about role bonuses now, is like putting a bandage on a broken leg. Well sure but you're basically driving one more nail into my playstyle here and expecting me to just nod and go with it. What's worse is that it's because "assaults are strong" is applied to all assaults when there are very clear distinctions in which ones are good (Min/Amarr) and which ones are bad (Cal/Gal). I'm not concerned with what I'm getting in the future, I'm concerned with what I'm getting in exchange for having my mobility taken away at the time of this change's release. You're killing my mobility, which is crucial to the Gallente Assault's ability to CQC which is undeniably worse for the wear right now because no-one is using it's intended weaponry in competitive environments as it is. Sprint speed is cool and all but if I can't strafe then it's kinda pointless. There's no real point in being able to sprint to my target faster when I can just equip a Rail Rifle and negate the need to close distance entirely. How do you intend to make the CQC Role (Gallente Assault) viable or at least keep them on par with how they perform now after these changes are made? (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:47:00 - [247] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Going to echo Kalante's concerns about the Assaults. The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory. Amarr Assaults -maybe- a problem because they have a really good slayer bonus toward a very powerful weapon system (scramblers/assault scramblers). This nerf is universal though and while it's great that it helps Logis, it's nerfing Assaults for the sake of 'progression' and 'making sense' with no real cause. I'd imagine someone (probably a CPM) sat behind the curtain and nudged this change along with the good intentions of making Logis and Commandos more viable but at the same time did one of the following: a) Instituted a level of anti-assault bias in what can only be considered an unnecessary Assault nerf. b) Figured that the hit to Assaults would be temporary and that we'd be okay with taking that hit until changes were made to re-balance us (even though we're still waiting for decent bonuses) c) Simply overlooked it. None of those are a good justification for why we shouldn't iron this out -now- and honestly, if your problem is the Minmatar Assault, hit the Minmatar Assault. Leave the Assaults at their current speed, buff the Logis, and then we get around to having more viable bonuses for Assaults -THEN- we can nerf them. At the moment it's wholly unnecessary and the only real reason to reduce their speed is to satiate a level of OCD in the EHP/Speed curve. EDIT: Mandatory equipment fitting on Logi's is also a bad move because then you're just going to have people clamoring for Type-II Logi's that are more oriented for combat. They're doing that -already- so adding ammo to the argument isn't helping much. I'm all down for decreasing PG/CPU and decreasing fitting costs for equipment though. Bad tinfoil is bad, it's hard to overlook it Aeon "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:53:00 - [248] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Going to echo Kalante's concerns about the Assaults. The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory. Amarr Assaults -maybe- a problem because they have a really good slayer bonus toward a very powerful weapon system (scramblers/assault scramblers). This nerf is universal though and while it's great that it helps Logis, it's nerfing Assaults for the sake of 'progression' and 'making sense' with no real cause. I'd imagine someone (probably a CPM) sat behind the curtain and nudged this change along with the good intentions of making Logis and Commandos more viable but at the same time did one of the following: a) Instituted a level of anti-assault bias in what can only be considered an unnecessary Assault nerf. b) Figured that the hit to Assaults would be temporary and that we'd be okay with taking that hit until changes were made to re-balance us (even though we're still waiting for decent bonuses) c) Simply overlooked it. None of those are a good justification for why we shouldn't iron this out -now- and honestly, if your problem is the Minmatar Assault, hit the Minmatar Assault. Leave the Assaults at their current speed, buff the Logis, and then we get around to having more viable bonuses for Assaults -THEN- we can nerf them. At the moment it's wholly unnecessary and the only real reason to reduce their speed is to satiate a level of OCD in the EHP/Speed curve. EDIT: Mandatory equipment fitting on Logi's is also a bad move because then you're just going to have people clamoring for Type-II Logi's that are more oriented for combat. They're doing that -already- so adding ammo to the argument isn't helping much. I'm all down for decreasing PG/CPU and decreasing fitting costs for equipment though. Bad tinfoil is bad, it's hard to overlook it Aeon So then what's the reasoning behind the universal nerf? Serious question, I'm not tin-foiling here, because I can't see any other justifiable reason than 'because Minmatar too stronk' or 'because it looks better on paper'. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:55:00 - [249] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now. Indeed but with all due respect Lord Deathstare [your new Imperial nickname] their speed increase does not need to come at such a significant cost to the Assault role whose fundamental purpose is to provide a mobile frontline. Aeon Amadi wrote: 'because Minmatar too stronk' Catmerc has been rubbing off on you. "Maikelele is too stronk!" "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:56:00 - [250] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Indeed but they do not 'need' to be outrunning the primary frontline soldiers they are supporting. They 'can' however afford to be faster. What this guy said. Just make Logis and Assaults have the same speed without having to try and shoe-horn this EHP/Speed thing. Logis keep up with the rest of the pack, Assaults continue to do their job, everyone is happy. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!

Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:57:00 - [251] - Quote Okay Rattati, I think the big point of contention is not so much logis being equal or faster, but assaults losing speed when their primary purpose is rapid deployment and pushing objectives. And again, nerfing one while buffing the other leads to things like god-mode tanks from 1.7, when AV was nerfed and tanks were buffed. In short, I want the logi to be buffed, but not at the expense of the assault suit. If your dead-set on reducing their speed, perhaps look at reducing it very slightly, maybe on the order of 0.2-0.3 m/s. The current 0.5 m/s? (cant really tell on the graph) is harsh on its own, but couple that with a buff to logi/commando speed buffs? If you have one, I think a lot of us would really appreciate seing a proposal on a spreadsheet so we can make accurate opinions. If for instance you posted a spreadsheet showing assaults all losing 0.2 m/s instead of what I fear to be 0.5 m/s or more judging by the charts, my opinion on your initiative would drastically change. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:58:00 - [252] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: EDIT: Mandatory equipment fitting on Logi's is also a bad move because then you're just going to have people clamoring for Type-II Logi's that are more oriented for combat. They're doing that -already- so adding ammo to the argument isn't helping much. I'm all down for decreasing PG/CPU and decreasing fitting costs for equipment though. Would this not be an example of Tiericide? Is this not a good thing? Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:59:00 - [253] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Perhaps instead of a speed to HP curve, its speed to mobility curve, where mobility is defined as a function of speed and stamina? You could then vary speed for logistics to maintain the proper mobility by throttling stamina as your independent variable? Why not both! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:01:00 - [254] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which ... mobility crossing into Scout territory. http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/1192/11893 ^ 850HP at ~9 m/s sprint. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:03:00 - [255] - Quote Feeding of Pokeys idea of HP to mobility, we could have assaults and logos have the same walk speed, while logos gain more sprint speed and more stamina. So both can walk and fire at the same speed, but since the logo has less health than the assault, it gets more sprint speed in order to get out of dodge, and more stamina to be able to consistently outrun a chasing assault. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:11:00 - [256] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Feeding of Pokeys idea of HP to mobility, we could have assaults and logos have the same walk speed, while logos gain more sprint speed and more stamina. So both can walk and fire at the same speed, but since the logo has less health than the assault, it gets more sprint speed in order to get out of dodge, and more stamina to be able to consistently outrun a chasing assault. Logis walk faster, Assaults sprint faster. Logis also get faster sprint, but not as fast as Assaults. Logis have high stamina, but not as high as Assaults. Simple, Logis get a buff, Assaults get dialed in. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:13:00 - [257] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory. http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/1192/11893 ^ Roughly 850HP at almost 9 m/s sprint. It isn't as overt a case as the MN Assault, but this is definitely Assault HP moving at Scout Speeds. That fit is all over the place lmfao, did you make that just so you could say it was possible for a Gallente Assault to border Scout turf? That fit is just awful. First of all, having Shield Extenders on a Gallente Assault is just dumb no matter what. Sure, you get 340 Shield HP but it's going to take you 24 - 28.5 seconds to fully recover that amount, of which it's going to be stopped -every time you take a bullet and every time you twist your ankle wrong on a 2m fall. Precision Enhancer is about damn pointless when it's only good for finding anything besides Heavies at your limited 15m range. Plus, you have an Active Scanner, so the precision enhancer should be replaced. Armor repair rate is abyssmal and with the hybridized Ferroscale/Vanilla plate combo you're unnecessarily taking mobility loss when you could have just used Reactives. With that low of repair rate and the split-tank you'll likely spend more time recovering than actually fighting and the window for said recovery is so extensive that anyone who came along would put you in the dirt. Too much risk in that. And the Kin-Cats don't offer any benefit at all apart from your shotgun because sprinting has little to no application in combat outside of getting within Nova Knife/Shotgun range. Of which, there are much better suits/roles. EVEN IF you want to dispute what I've said here - it's not a competitive fit, because if it were, you'd see it being used more often. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:18:00 - [258] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory. http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/1192/11893 ^ Roughly 850HP at almost 9 m/s sprint. It isn't as overt a case as the MN Assault, but this is definitely Assault HP moving at Scout Speeds. That fit is all over the place lmfao, did you make that just so you could say it was possible for a Gallente Assault to border Scout turf? That fit is just awful. First of all, having Shield Extenders on a Gallente Assault is just dumb no matter what. Sure, you get 340 Shield HP but it's going to take you 24 - 28.5 seconds to fully recover that amount, of which it's going to be stopped -every time you take a bullet and every time you twist your ankle wrong on a 2m fall. Precision Enhancer is about damn pointless when it's only good for finding anything besides Heavies at your limited 15m range. Plus, you have an Active Scanner, so the precision enhancer should be replaced. Armor repair rate is abyssmal and with the hybridized Ferroscale/Vanilla plate combo you're unnecessarily taking mobility loss when you could have just used Reactives. With that low of repair rate and the split-tank you'll likely spend more time recovering than actually fighting and the window for said recovery is so extensive that anyone who came along would put you in the dirt. Too much risk in that. And the Kin-Cats don't offer any benefit at all apart from your shotgun because sprinting has little to no application in combat outside of getting within Nova Knife/Shotgun range. Of which, there are much better suits/roles. EVEN IF you want to dispute what I've said here - it's not a competitive fit, because if it were, you'd see it being used more often. I'll start taking your advice on shotgun loadouts the moment you kill me with a shotgun loadout :-) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 486	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:19:00 - [259] - Quote Well, looks like Commando is new FOTM... BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:22:00 - [260] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: You're doing it wrong I'll heed your counsel on shotgun loadouts the moment you kill me with a shotgun loadout :-) PS: You missed the point. Assaults other than Minmatar can cross into Scout mobility territory. Anyone can cross into Scout mobility turf if that's all you focus on. Doesn't mean it's going to be competitive or in any way viable. EDIT: In response to your post, no - they wouldn't. They'd just run Scout. Because if they wanted to run a Heavy-Scout, they would do so, but the mobility restrictions inherent to the suit prohibit that in a nasty way by forcing you to focus fitting. If it were as easy as you say, they'd already be doing it. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:23:00 - [261] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: [quote=Adipem Nothi] http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/1192/11893 You're doing it wrong I'll start taking your advice on shotgun loadouts the moment you kill me with a shotgun loadout :-) PS: You missed the point. Assaults other than Minmatar can cross into Scout mobility territory. Well that's a rather overly literal and silly statement to make, I certainly see your point though, when you are compromising the fittings effectiveness. I created a 3x Kinetic Catalyzer Ak.0 with Assault/Logi Speed just as I can created a scout with Commando tier HP values. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:23:00 - [262] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: You're doing it wrong I'll heed your counsel on shotgun loadouts the moment you kill me with a shotgun loadout :-) PS: You missed the point. Assaults other than Minmatar can cross into Scout mobility territory. Anyone can cross into Scout mobility turf if that's all you focus on. Doesn't mean it's going to be competitive or in any way viable. Does it work both ways? Can a Scout cross into Assault HP territory and maintain 9 m/s sprint? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:25:00 - [263] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: You're doing it wrong I'll heed your counsel on shotgun loadouts the moment you kill me with a shotgun loadout :-) PS: You missed the point. Assaults other than Minmatar can cross into Scout mobility territory. Anyone can cross into Scout mobility turf if that's all you focus on. Doesn't mean it's going to be competitive or in any way viable. Does it work both ways? Can a Scout cross into Assault HP territory and maintain 9 m/s sprint? Can an Assault get a Cloaking Device, two equipment slots, and inherent low profile without having to sacrifice a boatload of fitting to do it? EDIT: Stop being stupid and thinking that everyone wants to be a Scout. If we wanted to play Scout, we'd spec into Scouts. Your inability to let that **** go is borderline infuriating because of just how dumb your arguments are becoming to try and prove your misguided point. EDIT: Furthermore, using it as a means to prevent -AN ENTIRE CLASS OF DROPSUITS- from being viable and directly contradicting the people -that actually play those roles with dedication- is just going to show that you have nothing beneficial to offer here. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 486	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:28:00 - [264] - Quote I disapprove of this change...It really just leads to more brick tanking because it destroys speed tanking entirely...also, it removes all viable shotgunning suits, which really REALLY REALLY SUCKS. Scouts are horribly easy to kill, and can't get a kill off on a heavy because the heavy will kill the scout before the scout can kill the heavy. Assaults (MN) are great for shotgunning because of speed combined with enough shield/armor to survive the spray and pray of shooting someone initially. I really hope you rethink this change, or just nerf assault HP instead of speed. HP is the problem, not the speed. Please don't make an already clunky game even clunkier. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
alias lycan Capital Acquisitions LLC 44	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:28:00 - [265] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: alias lycan wrote: Cross Atu wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. As a CPM and thus community rep I feel it important to confirm, publicly and on the record that CCP Rattati is not a sufferer of melissophobia, unlike some poor unfortunates in our community. Rattati wasnt around long enough to remember. The real vets still have scars from the numerous stings. I believe rattati mentioned something about cal logis being punished for old sins. Well the sin was it was the only suit that could have 600 shielding with room to spare. Yeah I remember the old "sins" and how all logi frames were punished for the sins of the Cal racial logi skill. The Cal skill was a bad idea, the following logi nerfs were a bad idea, and the melissophobia then and now remains a bad idea. Scrambler Rifle over performing? Don't nerf the Amarr Assault or Commando to fix it, because that doesn't. Double repped, double hardened armor HAV fits over performing? Don't nerf the base cassias of all HAVs to address an over powered synergy. Myofibs granting more jump than intended, don't nerf the Cal and Min frames slots to block stacked Myos, just address the Myos themselves. TAR killing LAVs at range? Nerfing the native armor regen and base HP of the Gal Assault isn't the proper fix. Cal Logi racial bonus brokenly OP? Should not have resulted in nerfing logistics frames, or even the Cal frame, the bonus should have been fixed. Same with the present day "Assaults have no reason to be run as slayer fits unless they're the best of class in both speed and HP within the medium line" then that right there is a problem. Just like it would be a problem if there was no reason to run a scout unless they had assault HP, or no reason to run a heavy unless they had assault movement speeds. There should be a reason why the assault is the assault that does not require it to have better movement and better HP. The trend of them being inverse is already present in many aspects of the game as we can all see from how the balance between light, medium, and heavy frames works, so if they are truly lacking without having this imbalanced stacking of both then other aspects of the class - like their racial bonuses - really need to be looked into. 0.02 ISK The skill isnt what broke the suit. It had 9 mod slots plus a ton of cpu. The suit was already broken the skill just made it worse. This is why both the suit and the skill needed a change. For most of this games history logis always had 1 more mod slot than assaults. This combined with more fitting space made it an easy option for slay fits. Even after the nerf it was still entirely possible to run 1000 ehp suits when this was an absurd amount for any med frame. What we're looking at right now is something similar to the past. With the proposed change logis will have equal mod slots more speed more cpu/pg and the option to run extra equipment. Now how is that not more appealing? Im not saying logis dont need help but Ratatti needs to learn some history or its bound tp repeat itself
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:28:00 - [266] - Quote All I'm doing is challenging your claim, Aeon: Aeon Amadi wrote: The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory. This claim is false. If the MN Assault were magically removed from play, do you think all would be well and balanced? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 756	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:31:00 - [267] - Quote Commander Noctus wrote: This I like. A commando that can actually get around the battlefield without an LAV. And that potential Gallente burst is absolutely lovely. I'd like to see the Caldari get some kinda special little bonus themselves though...perhaps a shield tank/regen buff? Jump buff? Weapon buff? Discussion for another time. That being said, as I have asked for a Logi buff before, my worries are the same as those that have already been voiced: Slayer Logi's/Killer Bees. But I'm not terribly afraid since things now between the two medium frames are much different than before. 1) Logi's have less tank and slightly less potential for tank as Assaults.* 2) Logi's lack weapons' bonus (to their racial guns) and lack a sidearm (minus Amarr). Some argue that they're lackluster, but that doesn't mean they don't play a part in gunfights. 3) Their EWAR is slightly better at finding people, but not for hiding. Adding more Dampeners means they lose tank. *The only thing that is irksome is that Logi's will have a noticeable CPU/PG difference between them and Assaults, affecting the tank. But only time will tell. Until then, I'll be eagerly waiting to rush opponents with my crazy-fast, shotgun toting Galmando I can get ~277 shield and 477 armor for a total 754 hp (no I didnt check my math, its close enough!) on an advanced Amarr Logi, and thats with using good equipment with only lvl 3 amarr logi skill (lvl 5 would give me more pg/cpu to work with via equipment fittng cost bonus). It would be very easy with the speed buff to make a suit that outperformed the Gallente and Caldari assaults in every way except for a very marginal hp difference on the gallente assault. Even without the speed changes I already consider my advanced amarr logi fit better than equivalent level Gal/Cal fits (except for hp stacked Gal fit), after the buff its going to be 100% preferable. On the other side of the scale the min logi is going to be a terror in pubs with a shotgun/remotes/nanohives/injector/uplinks suit with a kincat or two. They cant get near the assault's raw health (I think it was ~100-150 lower, I forget exactly) with the same fit, but it goes significantly faster and is much more versatile due to the equipment. Im much less worried about the Cal Logi, since it just sucks butt, and the Gal Logi is probably not much of a problem either, but this logi buff is going to obsolete alot of roles that should be performed by assaults in favor of filling them with a logi.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:35:00 - [268] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Please dial down the crazy. All I'm doing is challenging your claim, Aeon: Aeon Amadi wrote: The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory. ^ I believe this claim to be false. If the MN Assault were magically removed from play, do you think all would be well and balanced? No, you're not. You're contradicting my claim by using terrible examples, shoddy results, and cherry picked data. You're not doing anything beneficial here except for trolling - per the norm - and trying to institute this superiority complex that somehow everyone is trying to infringe on what you do because #reasons, ignoring the fact that if they wanted to they would have already. What's worse is you're not doing it for any particular reason other than to simply -be contradictory- because there is absolutely nothing to gain from this argument besides your personal satisfaction that someone might buy into your -100000000/10 troll. In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed as a whole because the issue of the Minmatar Assault 'heavy scout' has only arisen recently after it received a buff whereas every other Assault hasn't seen changes since 1.7 and has yet to follow suite in what you would have us believe is an epidemic of players running around with 900 EHP dual-tanked suits and kin-cats to put them at 9m/s, yet in another thread go on to complain that brick tanking is a problem because armor plates are the most bought item. You can't decide which you want to go with because there is absolutely no validity to either claim: Either players are running speedy/high EHP dual-tank suits or they're running slow, brick-tanked armor suits. Pick one and stick with it less you look even more like a fool. EDIT: And don't you dare tell me to 'dial down the crazy' when you're deliberately trolling. You made your bed, now lay in it. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 487	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:37:00 - [269] - Quote Aeon: You're stupid to think that the Min assault is the best slayer assault. Most versatile, yes. Good slayer, yes. Best slayer? Absolutely not. Assault wise, Gallente is the best 1v1 suit, tied perhaps with Amarr. Caldari is great if there are no scrubler rifles on the field. People need to realize that the biggest problem in this game isn't players who can move fast because they don't give into the brick meta, but the brick meta itself which has created this irrational hatred towards fast moving suits. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 756	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:37:00 - [270] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now. Just remember that the ability to get out of danger can be easily retasked to be an ability to murder people quickly.


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:38:00 - [271] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Please dial down the crazy. All I'm doing is challenging your claim, Aeon: Aeon Amadi wrote: The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory. ^ I believe this claim to be false. If the MN Assault were magically removed from play, do you think all would be well and balanced? No, you're not. You're contradicting my claim by using terrible examples, shoddy results, and cherry picked data. You're not doing anything beneficial here except for trolling - per the norm - and trying to institute this superiority complex that somehow everyone is trying to infringe on what you do because #reasons, ignoring the fact that if they wanted to they would have already. What's worse is you're not doing it for any particular reason other than to simply -be contradictory- because there is absolutely nothing to gain from this argument besides your personal satisfaction that someone might buy into your -100000000/10 troll. In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed as a whole because the issue of the Minmatar Assault 'heavy scout' has only arisen recently after it received a buff whereas every other Assault hasn't seen changes since 1.7 and has yet to follow suite in what you would have us believe is an epidemic of players running around with 900 EHP dual-tanked suits and kin-cats to put them at 9m/s, yet in another thread go on to complain that brick tanking is a problem because armor plates are the most bought item. You can't decide which you want to go with because there is absolutely no validity to either claim: Either players are running speedy/high EHP dual-tank suits or they're running slow, brick-tanked armor suits. Pick one and stick with it less you look even more like a fool. I recommend some smooth jazz. All you are doing is picking fights with people with differing opinions. Honestly, all you have said is "don't nerf my Gal Assault", without taking any of the careful consideration and community work going into this. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:40:00 - [272] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 244	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:43:00 - [273] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Please dial down the crazy. All I'm doing is challenging your claim, Aeon: Aeon Amadi wrote: The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory. ^ I believe this claim to be false. If the MN Assault were magically removed from play, do you think all would be well and balanced? No, you're not. You're contradicting my claim by using terrible examples, shoddy results, and cherry picked data. You're not doing anything beneficial here except for trolling - per the norm - and trying to institute this superiority complex that somehow everyone is trying to infringe on what you do because #reasons, ignoring the fact that if they wanted to they would have already. What's worse is you're not doing it for any particular reason other than to simply -be contradictory- because there is absolutely nothing to gain from this argument besides your personal satisfaction that someone might buy into your -100000000/10 troll. In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed as a whole because the issue of the Minmatar Assault 'heavy scout' has only arisen recently after it received a buff whereas every other Assault hasn't seen changes since 1.7 and has yet to follow suite in what you would have us believe is an epidemic of players running around with 900 EHP dual-tanked suits and kin-cats to put them at 9m/s, yet in another thread go on to complain that brick tanking is a problem because armor plates are the most bought item. You can't decide which you want to go with because there is absolutely no validity to either claim: Either players are running speedy/high EHP dual-tank suits or they're running slow, brick-tanked armor suits. Pick one and stick with it less you look even more like a fool. I recommend some smooth jazz. All you are doing is picking fights with people with differing opinions. Honestly, all you have said is "don't nerf my Gal Assault", without taking any of the careful consideration and community work going into this. Dont worry Aeon's just got something up his butt. Petition to ban the trainyard map.
Dreis ShadowWeaver 0uter.Heaven 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:45:00 - [274] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: You're doing it wrong I'll heed your counsel on shotgun loadouts the moment you kill me with a shotgun loadout :-) PS: You missed the point. Assaults other than Minmatar can cross into Scout mobility territory. If MN Assault shotgunners were removed from the equation, slightly less fast GA Assault equivalents would step up to take their place. Funnily enough, PC is writhe with Min and Gal Assault Shotgunners at the moment. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel My Minja Blog Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:46:00 - [275] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Please dial down the crazy. All I'm doing is challenging your claim, Aeon: Aeon Amadi wrote: The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory. ^ I believe this claim to be false. If the MN Assault were magically removed from play, do you think all would be well and balanced? No, you're not. You're contradicting my claim by using terrible examples, shoddy results, and cherry picked data. You're not doing anything beneficial here except for trolling - per the norm - and trying to institute this superiority complex that somehow everyone is trying to infringe on what you do because #reasons, ignoring the fact that if they wanted to they would have already. What's worse is you're not doing it for any particular reason other than to simply -be contradictory- because there is absolutely nothing to gain from this argument besides your personal satisfaction that someone might buy into your -100000000/10 troll. In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed as a whole because the issue of the Minmatar Assault 'heavy scout' has only arisen recently after it received a buff whereas every other Assault hasn't seen changes since 1.7 and has yet to follow suite in what you would have us believe is an epidemic of players running around with 900 EHP dual-tanked suits and kin-cats to put them at 9m/s, yet in another thread go on to complain that brick tanking is a problem because armor plates are the most bought item. You can't decide which you want to go with because there is absolutely no validity to either claim: Either players are running speedy/high EHP dual-tank suits or they're running slow, brick-tanked armor suits. Pick one and stick with it less you look even more like a fool. I recommend some smooth jazz. All you are doing is picking fights with people with differing opinions. Honestly, all you have said is "don't nerf my Gal Assault", without taking any of the careful consideration and community work going into this. I still haven't gotten an answer to my questions that I asked you. And if I'm being asked to take into consideration the opinions of others when my own are being ignored, I'm done here. To which I'll just say go ahead and do what you're going to do (you're going to anyway). Adipem isn't providing a difference of opinion here, he's providing split-haired evidence toward a problem that doesn't exist as a justification for an unnecessary nerf that a large portion of this community have already told you is an unnecessary nerf that, to date, doesn't have any justifiable reasons besides "it makes sense" with no explanation as to -how- it makes sense other than that it looks good on paper. I'll ask it again: - Why is this nerf considered necessary? - What data is there to indicate that the assault speed nerf, in combination with a buff to Logistics/Commandos, is absolutely necessary instead of one or the other? - What do you intend to do about the role the Gallente Assault is supposed to play when you yourself have shown data that shows it is -NOT- being used in the way it was intended, competitively? I had a bonus question but I'll hold off on it to save myself the ban. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 487	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:46:00 - [276] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. GA assault is already superior to MN assault for everything but shotgunning... Now that I have proto Gal Assault, I use it on open sockets in PC instead of minmitar simply because of how huge of an advantage it gives you in 1v1 situations. MN assault is still my go to in closed sockets (city), but that is due to it being good for shotgunning. Also, Rattati, please don't buff the Gallente. They really don't need it. I have no idea why you would do that. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:48:00 - [277] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. 6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up. You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina. If you think the 6% extra speed is: A. Small B. The only thing giving Min advantages You're just plain wrong. I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 488	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:50:00 - [278] - Quote Rattati, I beg of you: Adjust eHP instead of speed for assault if they don't fit on the curve. They've needed an HP nerf for a while. Don't screw with their mobility though. That would be like giving the scrambler rifle ridiculous kick or something to balance it, instead of just nerfing the damage a tiny bit. HP is the problem here, and I can personally promise that. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:52:00 - [279] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. 6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up. You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina. If you think the 6% extra speed is: A. Small B. The only thing giving Min advantages You're just plain wrong. I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb. Probably for the best. All that will be read out of that is 'don't nerf the Gal Assault'. I love how easy it is for people who don't run the damn thing to say it's doing good and be taken seriously. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:52:00 - [280] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: HP is the problem here, and I can personally promise that. You see, before the HP buff scouts were being the problem. Do you really believe removing an HP buff that was given due to Assaults being underpowered won't swing the balance in the direction of scouts too hard? Considering we've seen what happens without that HP buff? "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*

Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 488	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:52:00 - [281] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. 6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up. You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina. If you think the 6% extra speed is: A. Small B. The only thing giving Min advantages You're just plain wrong. I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb. If 6% speed isn't the only thing giving minmitar assaults an "advantage" over Gallente, then what is? Is it the lower HP values? Perhaps the lower repair rates? Or could it be the inherent QQGALLENTEQQ that seems to have imbedded itself inside of every Gallente drop suit? BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:53:00 - [282] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Rattati, I beg of you: Adjust eHP instead of speed for assault if they don't fit on the curve. They've needed an HP nerf for a while. Don't screw with their mobility though. That would be like giving the scrambler rifle ridiculous kick or something to balance it, instead of just nerfing the damage a tiny bit. HP is the problem here, and I can personally promise that. They have so many slots that they can use kincats, is my opinion. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:53:00 - [283] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. 6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up. You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina. If you think the 6% extra speed is: A. Small B. The only thing giving Min advantages You're just plain wrong. I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb. 5.30 m/s - MN Assault base movement 5.00 m/s - GA Assault base movement Difference: 6% 9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats 9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats Difference: 6% (because maths) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 757	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:53:00 - [284] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. 6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up. You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina. If you think the 6% extra speed is: A. Small B. The only thing giving Min advantages You're just plain wrong. I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb. Probably for the best. All that will be read out of that is 'don't nerf the Gal Assault'. I love how easy it is for people who don't run the damn thing to say it's doing good and be taken seriously. Gal Assault is ok, but its outclassed by the Amarr Assault and the Min Assault (in different ways). Then again the real ***** of the litter is Caldari Assault. Pity them. Pity them right in the butt.
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 488	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:54:00 - [285] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. 6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up. You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina. If you think the 6% extra speed is: A. Small B. The only thing giving Min advantages You're just plain wrong. I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb. 9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats 9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats Difference: 5.99% (because maths) A % increase doesn't change the relative % increase regardless of the base you're starting with...LOLMATH. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 757	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:55:00 - [286] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. 6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up. You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina. If you think the 6% extra speed is: A. Small B. The only thing giving Min advantages You're just plain wrong. I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb. 9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats 9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats Difference: 5.99% (because maths) A % increase doesn't change the relative % increase regardless of the base you're starting with...LOLMATH. And someone said earlier that they dont need to know math. Hah! Plebians.
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:55:00 - [287] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. 6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up. You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina. If you think the 6% extra speed is: A. Small B. The only thing giving Min advantages You're just plain wrong. I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb. 9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats 9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats Difference: 5.99% (because maths) And what sort of HP/regen do you expect out of an Assault using two kin cats? Try one Kin Cat, more than that and you're not the most efficient Gal Assault. I'm speaking from experience. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 488	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:55:00 - [288] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Rattati, I beg of you: Adjust eHP instead of speed for assault if they don't fit on the curve. They've needed an HP nerf for a while. Don't screw with their mobility though. That would be like giving the scrambler rifle ridiculous kick or something to balance it, instead of just nerfing the damage a tiny bit. HP is the problem here, and I can personally promise that. They have so many slots that they can use kincats, is my opinion. I counter that by saying they having so many slots that they can use Armor Plates and Shield Extenders. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:56:00 - [289] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. 5.30 m/s - MN Assault base movement 5.00 m/s - GA Assault base movement Difference: 6% 9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats 9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats Difference: 6% (because maths) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:57:00 - [290] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. 6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up. You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina. If you think the 6% extra speed is: A. Small B. The only thing giving Min advantages You're just plain wrong. I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb. 9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats 9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats Difference: 5.99% (because maths) A % increase doesn't change the relative % increase regardless of the base you're starting with...LOLMATH. Huh... Whelp, that's why I shouldn't think 10 minutes after waking up. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*

Oswald Rehnquist 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:57:00 - [291] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: You're doing it wrong I'll heed your counsel on shotgun loadouts the moment you kill me with a shotgun loadout :-) PS: You missed the point. Assaults other than Minmatar can cross into Scout mobility territory. Anyone can cross into Scout mobility turf if that's all you focus on. Doesn't mean it's going to be competitive or in any way viable. Does it work both ways? Can a Scout cross into Assault HP territory and maintain 9 m/s sprint? Can an Assault get a Cloaking Device, two equipment slots, and inherent low profile without having to sacrifice a boatload of fitting to do it? Simple facts, Scouts take 1 or 2 damps pending on race to get below 21 db, assaults take 3, that is a difference of +1 or 2 cheap modules, medium frames also get an extra slot which makes filling in this role rather easy. The integrity of any scanning fidelity only really exists on the second ring, so range is about 15 for non cal scouts 22 for cal scouts. Logis get about 18.75 for that second ring. So its better than non caldari scouts in radius. You vastly overestimate the value in scout ewar, its been neutered, I don't understand how can look at the numbers and in good faith not realize that the gap isn't that large anymore. You also overestimate the value of cloaks, truly, they are not all that useful (and yes 1.8 was broken, which made my leave as a scout), I'd rather have them removed from the game as to not be used as cheap firewood for cheap justification for neutering the scout in every other stat. Also having a cloak bonus is literally thy most restricting role in the entire game, there is something to be said about flexibility in roles. The scout suffers from a severe lack of niche role. Below 28 dB
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:59:00 - [292] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cat Merc wrote: You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. 5.30 m/s - MN Assault base movement 5.00 m/s - GA Assault base movement Difference: 6% 9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats 9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats Difference: 6% (because maths) Yes, I was wrong there, I'm not the best thinker 10 minutes after waking up. Doesn't change how that's still 6% extra speed, which I don't know how much scouts value it but for an Assault that's quite the big advantage, and you can use that speed almost constantly due to stamina regen being off the charts. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:00:00 - [293] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: 5.30 m/s - MN Assault base movement 5.00 m/s - GA Assault base movement Difference: 6% 9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats 9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats Difference: 6% (because maths) I'll admit there's a problem when I can fit a Cloaking Device with comparative ease, get a low profile and low precision, as well as two equipment slots while maintaining the 900 EHP and 9m/s sprint speed. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 244	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:00:00 - [294] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Rattati, I beg of you: Adjust eHP instead of speed for assault if they don't fit on the curve. They've needed an HP nerf for a while. Don't screw with their mobility though. That would be like giving the scrambler rifle ridiculous kick or something to balance it, instead of just nerfing the damage a tiny bit. HP is the problem here, and I can personally promise that. They have so many slots that they can use kincats, is my opinion. I'd also take an hp Nerf over a speed Nerf. Really theres other ways to Nerf assault. Like how about nerfing core nades since thats all I see assaults using as main weapons in ambush. Petition to ban the trainyard map.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:02:00 - [295] - Quote And here's how much I over-estimate cloaking devices. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:02:00 - [296] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. 6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up. You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina. If you think the 6% extra speed is: A. Small B. The only thing giving Min advantages You're just plain wrong. I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb. If 6% speed isn't the only thing giving minmitar assaults an "advantage" over Gallente, then what is? Is it the lower HP values? Perhaps the lower repair rates? Or could it be the inherent QQGALLENTEQQ that seems to have imbedded itself inside of every Gallente drop suit? Or maybe it's how 6% strafe speed > The HP you get from half a complex extender? Because yes that's the HP difference between a Gal Ass and Min Ass. And there's no way to increase strafe speed? "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 488	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:03:00 - [297] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 5.30 m/s - MN Assault base movement 5.00 m/s - GA Assault base movement Difference: 6% 9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats 9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats Difference: 6% (because maths) I'll admit there's a problem when I can fit a Cloaking Device with comparative ease, get a low profile and low precision, as well as two equipment slots while maintaining the 900 EHP and 9m/s sprint speed. If you bring cloaks into an argument about why scouts are viable, your opinion is automatically null and voided. The cloak in its original iteration was something to be feared, but right now its more of a pain than an aid, especially against competent opponents. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:04:00 - [298] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: And here's how much I over-estimate cloaking devices. lel "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:06:00 - [299] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 5.30 m/s - MN Assault base movement 5.00 m/s - GA Assault base movement Difference: 6% 9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats 9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats Difference: 6% (because maths) I'll admit there's a problem when I can fit a Cloaking Device with comparative ease, get a low profile and low precision, as well as two equipment slots while maintaining the 900 EHP and 9m/s sprint speed. If you bring cloaks into an argument about why scouts are viable, your opinion is automatically null and voided. The cloak in its original iteration was something to be feared, but right now its more of a pain than an aid, especially against competent opponents. Than ** it. Nerf the Assaults, watch how well that works out for you guys (although I'm certain non-assaults will love it to death). I'm out. There's no reasoning with you people and I -STILL- have yet to get answers to my questions, so clearly I'm not being listened to around here and I refuse to be used as ***** comedic relief for you people. Ban me. Save me from having to finalize this Design-a-Skin challenge anyway. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:07:00 - [300] - Quote What we think we're all doing What we're actually doing "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*

Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 761	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:07:00 - [301] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: And here's how much I over-estimate cloaking devices. Aeon Amadi used cloak! its super effective! Cat Merc uses strafe! Its super effective! Critical Hit. Aeon Amadi has fainted.
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:09:00 - [302] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: And here's how much I over-estimate cloaking devices. Aeon Amadi used cloak! its super effective! Cat Merc uses strafe! Its super effective! Critical Hit. Aeon Amadi has fainted. Psssht, the Ion Pistol was totally the best part. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 761	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:09:00 - [303] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: What we think we're all doing What we're actually doing I like to think Im holding my own head in the knowledge as well, probably the best way to view open discussion imo (as long as no one is trolling)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:09:00 - [304] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Than **** it. Nerf the Assaults, watch how well that works out for you guys ... Aeon almost has a point. The vast majority of the playerbase are running Assault at the moment. If we nerf their favorite suits, we might lose some of them, even if it is warranted and even it brings about better balance. I'd suggest softening the blow by rolling out better "gank" racial bonuses for Gal Assault and Cal Assault alongside potential mobility changes. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 488	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:10:00 - [305] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. 6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up. You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina. If you think the 6% extra speed is: A. Small B. The only thing giving Min advantages You're just plain wrong. I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb. If 6% speed isn't the only thing giving minmitar assaults an "advantage" over Gallente, then what is? Is it the lower HP values? Perhaps the lower repair rates? Or could it be the inherent QQGALLENTEQQ that seems to have imbedded itself inside of every Gallente drop suit? Or maybe it's how 6% strafe speed > The HP you get from half a complex extender? Because yes that's the HP difference between a Gal Ass and Min Ass. And there's no way to increase strafe speed? 6% strafe speed is a fair amount, but at a certain point it doesn't matter. This is one of those instances. Strafing is more about technique than speed. Speed is useful to a certain point, but really it comes down to skill of your opponent at hitting you, and your skill at avoiding it. You could give people like Regnyum or myself or others a heavy suits, and we could out strafe most players. You could give a blueberry a minmitar assault with the strafe speed of speedy gonzales and he'd get killed just the same. Also, sorry if I am rather incoherent, it is currently 1:00 AM where I live. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:14:00 - [306] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: alias lycan wrote: Cross Atu wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. As a CPM and thus community rep I feel it important to confirm, publicly and on the record that CCP Rattati is not a sufferer of melissophobia, unlike some poor unfortunates in our community. Rattati wasnt around long enough to remember. The real vets still have scars from the numerous stings. I believe rattati mentioned something about cal logis being punished for old sins. Well the sin was it was the only suit that could have 600 shielding with room to spare. I've played longer than you, or a matter of fact anyone here. I was the first alpha tester and have played every build ever since Can I add you as a contact so I can see your stats?
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:15:00 - [307] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: 6% strafe speed is a fair amount, but at a certain point it doesn't matter. This is one of those instances. Strafing is more about technique than speed. Speed is useful to a certain point, but really it comes down to skill of your opponent at hitting you, and your skill at avoiding it. You could give people like Regnyum or myself or others a heavy suits, and we could out strafe most players. You could give a blueberry a minmitar assault with the strafe speed of speedy gonzales and he'd get killed just the same. Also, sorry if I am rather incoherent, it is currently 1:00 AM where I live. You're perfectly coherent, no need to worry about that And while it's true strafe speed is more about technique, you can't honestly say a heavy strafes just as well as a medium frame. The 6% extra strafe speed is enough to make the difference, and is certainly far more valuable than extra 30HP. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Oswald Rehnquist 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:15:00 - [308] - Quote Just for the record I'm neutral on the assault speed changes, if they keep their speed or not, I'm don't care, I was just pointing out the actually numerical differences between scout ewar vs medium ewar, which people often label as a massive scout strength without actually going into the numbers. The value of cloaks are subjective, ewar isn't, its numerically driven. Below 28 dB
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:16:00 - [309] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Can I add you as a contact so I can see your stats? His player name is a secret. If you find it, you get banned. Rattati said so himself :P "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 761	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:17:00 - [310] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Cat Merc wrote: You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. 5.30 m/s - MN Assault base movement 5.00 m/s - GA Assault base movement Difference: 6% 9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats 9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats Difference: 6% (because maths) Yes, I was wrong there, I'm not the best thinker 10 minutes after waking up. Doesn't change how that's still 6% extra speed, which I don't know how much scouts value it but for an Assault that's quite the big advantage, and you can use that speed almost constantly due to stamina regen being off the charts. The thrust of your original claim was correct, that the extra speed translates into even more extra speed after kincats are in place. You just made the claim in regards to relative % speed instead of relative absolute speed.

Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 488	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:17:00 - [311] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: 6% strafe speed is a fair amount, but at a certain point it doesn't matter. This is one of those instances. Strafing is more about technique than speed. Speed is useful to a certain point, but really it comes down to skill of your opponent at hitting you, and your skill at avoiding it. You could give people like Regnyum or myself or others a heavy suits, and we could out strafe most players. You could give a blueberry a minmitar assault with the strafe speed of speedy gonzales and he'd get killed just the same. Also, sorry if I am rather incoherent, it is currently 1:00 AM where I live. You're perfectly coherent, no need to worry about that And while it's true strafe speed is more about technique, you can't honestly say a heavy strafes just as well as a medium frame. The 6% extra strafe speed is enough to make the difference, and is certainly far more valuable than extra 30HP. Hitbox is the main reason for that, though the speed difference between heavy and medium is much greater than 6%, so that argument is also rather silly... Agreed, it is more valuable than 30 HP. However, Minmitar assault also has ****** regen, and needs to be toned down in HP anyways. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:17:00 - [312] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Cat Merc wrote: You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. 5.30 m/s - MN Assault base movement 5.00 m/s - GA Assault base movement Difference: 6% 9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats 9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats Difference: 6% (because maths) Yes, I was wrong there, I'm not the best thinker 10 minutes after waking up. Doesn't change how that's still 6% extra speed, which I don't know how much scouts value it but for an Assault that's quite the big advantage, and you can use that speed almost constantly due to stamina regen being off the charts. The thrust of your original claim was correct, that the extra speed translates into even more extra speed after kincats are in place. You just made the claim in regards to relative % speed instead of relative absolute speed. Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. As I said, not the best thinker so soon after waking up "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:25:00 - [313] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Just for the record I'm neutral on the assault speed changes Honestly that's my stance as well. While I don't think speed change is necessary or called for, I don't care enough to protest. I will let the meta play out and see what happens. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:31:00 - [314] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I'd suggest softening the blow by rolling out better "gank" racial bonuses for Gal Assault and Cal Assault alongside potential mobility changes. Edit: And/Or the 1.4 ---> 1.5 assault sprint multiplier (my two cents) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:32:00 - [315] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: True Adamance wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. See that's where it gets really tricky because you're then dealing with a qualitative analysis of relative worth between Assault Bonuses (and you're right only 2 are really worth it) and having more equipment. I personally feel that people seem to put more worth in the equipment than they should, mostly due to leftover fear from when Logistics were stupidly broken, but again that's just a personal assessment. I think what Rattati is really going for here is "How can we make all suits feel roughly equally survivable?" and I feel that's a good direction to go with it. And as you have stated, the tradeoff of speed vs defense makes the suits 'equal' which I also think is a good thing. At which point my main question is "How can we make the Assault Bonuses feel like they're a fair tradeoff from the Logistics equipment?" Sadly I fear the answer is probably "Well if only the Commandos and Assaults were combined into one suit....." but that gets really tricky because it would basically mean the removal of Commandos from the game, which would likely be a nightmare on many fronts. Plus I have some pretty strong personal bias in that I love my Commando Q_Q So I guess for me I would say to all of the Assault players out there: "Assuming this speed/hp ratio goes through, what sort of changes to Assaults would you want to see in order to make the tradeoff between Assault and Logistics worth it, and solidify the Assault as the better slayer suit?" I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the qualitative value. I do think the assaults' bonuses are canceled out by the logitics' bonuses, so I don't count it as a point for the worth of assaults vs logistics and their equipment. Anyway, I'm still not convinced the assaults need a speed nerf. I would be alright if it was something small, but the proposal is far too drastic, and undermines the assault's role of being a mobile frontline fighter that rushes objectives. Furthermore, I think the logis would be in a good place with the speed buff without having to nerf assaults. I meant to say "Its NOT really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis," but I didn't edit the post fast enough. Seems like you know what I meant, but felt I should clarify. This is what I mean. Assaults are as Kage put it "Mobile Frontline Fighters that rush objectives". This is their fundamental role. Ensuring that their are always players on the frontlines pushing for the objective. Speed nerfs directly and rather significantly hinder this role. Only one suit at this time to my knowledge is "bleeding over" into the Scout Class the others seem relatively balanced in terms of their movement speeds without modifying them via modules. Logistics I can understand want to have some bonuses but in being one I realise I don't need to be faster than an Assault to do my job well, if anything I want to roughly be the same speed as them as there is no point in out running the team I am supposed to be supporting, if I am with multiple forms of equipment then I am directly bleeding into the Scout Class. Were my Assault's Speed nerfed and the Logi buffed significantly I would just tank my Amarr Logi better and use that as an Assault suit for its speed and being able to carry equipment. If the speed values were standardised or the Logi buffed to Assault Speeds the suits would still in their current forms retain enough unique traits to merit the use of the Assault. Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now. Getting out of danger? That's an occupational hazard that's part of their job. But keeping up with other units? Just give logis boat loads of stamina so they can just sprint everywhere. What I hate seeing are logis walking the sentinel dogs around on leashes all damn match. Those dudes don't do anything else. They don't revive anyone, resupply anyone, they don't scan, they just farm WPs off heavies. I can't tell you how many times I've heard logis say they "need" a heavy. I always ask them, "for what?" Because I know all they want is to rep heavies and nothing else. Those logis are about as useful to me as redline snipers. I'm against making logi movement speed greater than sentinel sprint speed.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:49:00 - [316] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Can I add you as a contact so I can see your stats? His player name is a secret. If you find it, you get banned. Rattati said so himself :P His dev account stats or can he just post his stats in a thread somewhere? I want see how some who has played this game longer than us performs.
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:00:00 - [317] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Cat Merc wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Can I add you as a contact so I can see your stats? His player name is a secret. If you find it, you get banned. Rattati said so himself :P His dev account stats or can he just post his stats in a thread somewhere? I want see how some who has played this game longer than us performs. His dev account also has BPO officer gear :P "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:11:00 - [318] - Quote Latest update is; Medium (Logistics and Assault) Speed changes as in OP Sprint changes, Logis from 1.4 to 1.3 modifier, means they have the same sprint speed as they do now Assault from 1.4 to 1.5, means they retain current sprint Balance stamina pool and stamina regen to cover similar ground over time, sprinting/walking vs constantly running, nerf Min Assault coverage. Any shield regen is off the table for this round, must keep focus on mobility vs ehp. 8 H/L slots at all tiers 4 EQ (unless traded) 1 LW 1 G 0 Sidearm (unless traded) = 14 slots CPU for all factions STD/ADV/PRO 170/260/385 PG for all factions STD/ADV/PRO 30/45/67 Fitting bonus to EQ approx 10% per level All EQ must be fitted at all tiers Amarr retains sidearm for EQ slot Still don't know what to do with CA sidearm or EQ Commandos Same speed as proposed in OP 1 additional slot at H/L = 8 total 5 H/L 2 Light 1 EQ Layout to align with sentinel (AM most lows, CA most highs) same slots for all tiers 5% fitting bonus to LW to normalize PG/CPU against Sentinels CPU for all factions STD/ADV/PRO 140/200/285 PG for all factions STD/ADV/PRO 26/37/51 "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Songs of Seraphim Negative-Feedback. 992	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:14:00 - [319] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Latest update is; Medium (Logistics and Assault) Speed changes as in OP Sprint changes, Logis from 1.4 to 1.3 modifier, means they have the same sprint speed as they do now Assault from 1.4 to 1.5, means they retain current sprint Balance stamina pool and stamina regen to cover similar ground over time, sprinting/walking vs constantly running, nerf Min Assault coverage. Any shield regen is off the table for this round, must keep focus on mobility vs ehp. 8 H/L slots at all tiers 4 EQ (unless traded) 1 LW 1 G 0 Sidearm (unless traded) = 14 slots CPU for all factions STD/ADV/PRO 170/260/385 PG for all factions STD/ADV/PRO 30/45/67 Fitting bonus to EQ approx 10% per level All EQ must be fitted at all tiers Amarr retains sidearm for EQ slot Still don't know what to do with CA sidearm or EQ Commandos Same speed as proposed in OP 1 additional slot at H/L = 8 total Layout to align with sentinel (AM most lows, CA most highs) same slots for all tiers 5% fitting bonus to LW to normalize PG/CPU against Sentinels CPU for all factions STD/ADV/PRO 140/200/285 PG for all factions STD/ADV/PRO 26/37/51 I reiterate, lose the 4th low slot for a 4th equipment slot. And make CPU/PG adjustments for the Caldari/Amarr respectively. Caldari Loyalist Join Caldari FW via Kirjuun Saaja
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:18:00 - [320] - Quote Seems fair, though I would have liked to see how Logis played out if they retained the 1.4 modifier. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*

Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:22:00 - [321] - Quote wait, what? Same CPU and PG across the board for all races??? What? Am I reading that right? Sgt Kirk's Gallente Propaganda Youtube Channel

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:24:00 - [322] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: wait, what? Same CPU and PG across the board for all races??? What? Am I reading that right? If you look at the data, as I have, the differences are negligible. As explained in a previous post, I intend to balance through role bonuses and fitting costs. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:24:00 - [323] - Quote I was hoping logis would keep the proposed speeds, or at least be as fast as assaults. I guess these revisions are acceptable though. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:35:00 - [324] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I was hoping logis would keep the proposed speeds, or at least be as fast as assaults. I guess these revisions are acceptable though. uh they do, it's the sprint that will differentiate. Both will retain sprint speeds, normal movement will be reduced for assault and increased for logi. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 244	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:41:00 - [325] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I was hoping logis would keep the proposed speeds, or at least be as fast as assaults. I guess these revisions are acceptable though. uh they do, it's the sprint that will differentiate. Both will retain sprint speeds, normal movement will be reduced for assault and increased for logi. Why didn't you say this in the first place? Its just a Nerf to super strafing assaults. GG Petition to ban the trainyard map.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 621	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:00:00 - [326] - Quote Can we apply the same modifiers to the Assault jump height? I know i sound like a broken record, but I hate not being able to jump those goddamn short barriers! ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:21:00 - [327] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Can we apply the same modifiers to the Assault jump height? I know i sound like a broken record, but I hate not being able to jump those goddamn short barriers! Why can't you use myofibrils? They increase jump height
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:21:00 - [328] - Quote Just something I was playing around with, an alternative idea on quantifying Mobility vs HP. This is just a rough, conceptual project (because this is what sickness looks like) so by no means are the numbers anything you should focus on. More or less showing an idea for a methodology of design. I present two test case studies that net fairly similar results but do so by buffing different stats. I also understand that the Mobility Index is tricky to come up with since it attempts to assign a cumulative worth of various stats and their weight within that sum. Math and **. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s-Y9wlM7v8P6KT0xsjhkQqruUPDmJkuXWrTU2mswmMg/edit?usp=sharing Who knows, it may just be gibberish, haven't had much sleep lately and if this keeps up I'm going to start looking like Rattati. "That little st Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:27:00 - [329] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: wait, what? Same CPU and PG across the board for all races??? What? Am I reading that right? If you look at the data, as I have, the differences are negligible. As explained in a previous post, I intend to balance through role bonuses and fitting costs. Will you also balance the weapons and suit combos? For example. It had always annoyed me that gal logi or any suit using damage mods out damage and out range cal assault with a RR. My argument can be proven mathematically.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 622	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:31:00 - [330] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Can we apply the same modifiers to the Assault jump height? I know i sound like a broken record, but I hate not being able to jump those goddamn short barriers! Why can't you use myofibrils? They increase jump height I'm aware they exist, I'm saying the baseline is too low likewise you shouldn't need them on a heavy to jump a curb ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:37:00 - [331] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Can we apply the same modifiers to the Assault jump height? I know i sound like a broken record, but I hate not being able to jump those goddamn short barriers! Why can't you use myofibrils? They increase jump height I'm aware they exist, I'm saying the baseline is too low likewise you shouldn't need them on a heavy to jump a curb Because that baseline is tied to movement speed or something and isn't a separate value that can be adjusted. At least I thinks what I remember hearing. That's interesting because won't these new movement speeds affect everyone's jump heights? They will all become lower yes?
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 622	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:44:00 - [332] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Can we apply the same modifiers to the Assault jump height? I know i sound like a broken record, but I hate not being able to jump those goddamn short barriers! Why can't you use myofibrils? They increase jump height I'm aware they exist, I'm saying the baseline is too low likewise you shouldn't need them on a heavy to jump a curb Because that baseline is tied to movement speed or something and isn't a separate value that can be adjusted. At least I thinks what I remember hearing. That's interesting because won't these new movement speeds affect everyone's jump heights? They will all become lower yes? They are inter-related in the same way that walking and sprint speed are inter-related Since the assault is getting a boost to the sprint ratio, up to 1.5, from a 1.4 baseline, I am asking for the same to be applied to the jump height ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:52:00 - [333] - Quote I love how people think that smart logis will be advancing on enemy positions faster than assaults. If this bevomes a thing I will log on more frequently to farm easy kills. Smart logi players will be dropping into a conflict to resupply, revive and repair and drop back when it gets hot. They don't have the armament or EHP of assault suits and don't have the speed scouts use to rough up sentinels. Killer bees are going to pop up as the theorycrafters start thinking that the speed increase (which is somewhat low swap) will negate the need for extenders or pllates is hilarious. The only way they're going to get more EHP than an assault is via full plates, which would drop their speed back to assault level. Assaults use ferroscale and reactive for mobility. Kincats are about to become more important to assault players along with regulators. And a logi who decides to go killer bee will be fairly effective. Just not as effective as a fully skilled and kitted assault player. And god help them vs. AHMG sentinels. What happens to tanked logis and assaults when that thing gets a bead on them is nothing short of hilarity in action. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:53:00 - [334] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I was hoping logis would keep the proposed speeds, or at least be as fast as assaults. I guess these revisions are acceptable though. They do, it's the sprint that will differentiate. Both will retain sprint speeds, normal movement will be reduced for assault and increased for logi. This is an excellent method for differentiating the movement types. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 08:02:00 - [335] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Can we apply the same modifiers to the Assault jump height? I know i sound like a broken record, but I hate not being able to jump those goddamn short barriers! Why can't you use myofibrils? They increase jump height I'm aware they exist, I'm saying the baseline is too low likewise you shouldn't need them on a heavy to jump a curb Because that baseline is tied to movement speed or something and isn't a separate value that can be adjusted. At least I thinks what I remember hearing. That's interesting because won't these new movement speeds affect everyone's jump heights? They will all become lower yes? They are inter-related in the same way that walking and sprint speed are inter-related Since the assault is getting a boost to the sprint ratio, up to 1.5, from a 1.4 baseline, I am asking for the same to be applied to the jump height You will jump higher when sprinting, lower when walking with a higher sprint modifier, lower speed "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:30:00 - [336] - Quote Wow. I am still so very wow right now. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:31:00 - [337] - Quote Oh, damn, I just thought of something. A single myo stim gives me some pretty good mobility, definitely worth the slot for all the barriers I can jump over. But a lot of those are borderline jumps, as in I mess up by a few CM and I'm not getting over it. With this change my myo stim will become less effective, as I won't be able to jump over those kind of barriers now. Oh well. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:31:00 - [338] - Quote After digging around all day in stamina and regen, I can safely conclude that with regard to mobility, the Minmatar faction has, due to I believe a fundamental misconception, been double dipping in the speed jar. The comparisons were done on both "distance covered until stamina pool is fully recharged" and "average speed while covering a fixed distance". The intent with the design was to allow minmatar to travel approximately 5% faster, and Amarr approx 5% slower. Whereas, minmatar actually travels 10% faster and 15% faster than Amarr. Now, I don't want to punish them, but bring the rest up. For example, this means that Caldari Assault will now have 35 stam regen instead of 20, and Amarr 45, while Minmatar stays at 50. With the reduction of normal speed, and differentation through sprinting, I hope we have a really good model as a foundation for speed. The rules of thumb as applied to the Medium class now: Mobility (stamina pool and recovery) CA/GA = normal Amarr= 5% lower Minmatar = 5% higher Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x eHP Basic = normal Logistics = lower Assault = higher Speed Basic = normal Logistics = higher Assault = lower Shield Regen on hold While there is nothing gamebreaking about this increase, it will result in more fluidity across the spectrum and be a little more enjoyable. This will have a cascading effect, as for example Light Basics are very out of shape in regard to most of these things. The other basics are more in line. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:34:00 - [339] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Just something I was playing around with, an alternative idea on quantifying Mobility vs HP. This is just a rough, conceptual project (because this is what sickness looks like) so by no means are the numbers anything you should focus on. More or less showing an idea for a methodology of design. In short instead of comparing just movement speed and HP, you take a look at a composite of Movement Speed, Stamina, and Stamina recharge and then convert all 3 into a single value, and then compare it against HP. The advantage of this is, for example in the case of Logis and Assaults, you can give the Logistics more mobility but lower movement speed due to superior stamina, or vice versa. I present two test case studies that net fairly similar results but do so by buffing different stats. I also understand that the Mobility Index is tricky to come up with since it attempts to assign a cumulative worth of various stats and their weight within that sum. Math and ****. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s-Y9wlM7v8P6KT0xsjhkQqruUPDmJkuXWrTU2mswmMg/edit?usp=sharing Who knows, it may just be gibberish, haven't had much sleep lately and if this keeps up I'm going to start looking like Rattati. The way I chose was to calculate mobility as a "traverse" index, how long does it take to cross X meters, and how far can I get through one sprint and sprint recovery phase. I need to the same thing for shields and shield regen. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 903	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:36:00 - [340] - Quote TL/DR: No to changing sprint modifiers, instead give assaults a skill bonus to speed. I don't particularly like the idea of changing the sprint modifiers. Firstly, sprint speed is much more important, so the changes to the game will be minimal. More importantly, you would be adding an additional layer of complexity. I thought a major purpose for looking at dropsuit speeds was to inject some extra logic into things; make things more intuitive / easy to understand. Giving different suits different sprint modifiers is the opposite of simplifying things. Trying to both keep the proposed hp / speed curve, whilst simultaneously breaking it with sprint modifiers seems like cheating. Whose to say the hp/speed curve shouldn't be sprint speed vs hp? If I want to get from A to B I sprint. I don't know how you are going to get round the speed / hp problem. Every class has special abilities that make them worthwhile on the battlefield. Scouts have mobility and stealth (just about), logis have equipment support, commandos have dual light weapons, sentinels have heavy weapons and resistances, and Assault suit's special attribute is having both speed and hp. To fit the assault role you need to be both tough and fast. I would conclude from this that assault suits would naturally not fit on an hp - speed curve with other suits, they should be outliers by design / necessity. Currently, various suits trade hp or speed, along with regen, stamina, slots, bonuses, hitbox, and EWAR, for their other attributes. If you want a true hp / speed relationship, you would have to establish what all those trades are, the relative value of different attributes, and make a plot taking all these things into account. This doesn't really seem viable to me. How about I propose an alternative solution to the sprint modifiers? How about going with the proposed speed changes, keeping sprint modifiers equal between classes, and give assaults a bonus per level to movement speed (including sprint). This way you keep the intuitive curve, but you are also saying "look, assault's special ability is assaulting, which requires speed, here, have a bonus to it." This would give a much more easily understood way for assaults to break the hp/speed curve and maintain their special place on the battlefield: the slayers. You could then balance this bonus so that assaults are a bit slower than they are now, thus achieving improved overall balance. Downside is, not quite so good for newer players. To Aeon: Rattati posted dropsuit KDR showing assaults to have considerably better KDR than other suits. The market data shows that assault suit sales vastly outstrip other dropsuits. This all includes Gallente assaults. Just because Gal assaults have a slightly worse bonus compared to Amarr and Minmatar assaults, does not mean they should be exempt from assault balancing. Regarding balancing Min assaults specifically, I recommend either a) reducing stamina / stamina regen to make them more similar to other assaults. Or b) reducing hp to make them more like scouts, inline with the Minmatar tradition of having suits that blend with the lighter tier above them on the hp / speed curve.

Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:37:00 - [341] - Quote Now that's an interesting find. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:52:00 - [342] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Shield Regen on hold For shield regen, may I suggest lowering the recharger and energizer efficiency by 10% and setting the shield depleted recharge delay as the only time shields stop regenerating? The lower HP pool and absolutely destructive effect by shield breaker weapons will keep them in line, while lowering the capacity of the rail rifle and combat rifle from casually blowing through the shallower HP pools. The regen loss due to shield regen stopping from a stray shot can be crippling To a shield user. The only dropsuit that is shield dependent and viable in a firefight with scramblers or plasma in close is the calsent. I'm not saying that shields should be equal in a brawl, but right now they fold up like a wet sack under fire, and by and large it's hard for me to determine why. The balance between shields and armor is close, but without the sniper outliers they feel like they need something. Without more kill/spawn numbers from you on various weapon/suit combos I can only go on the oobservation that caldari shield fits feel squishy as hell, wheras the minmatar can get away with either armor fits with damage mods or a speed fit with a shield buffer or damage rack to tear up the battleground. Interested to hear your thoughts on this topic, honestly. I'm actually very interested in the numbers and if I am wrong. But my feel for the assaults and logis is they have much less use on the field than the calsent except as snipers. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:57:00 - [343] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Shield Regen on hold Interested to hear your thoughts on this topic, honestly. I'm actually very interested in the numbers and if I am wrong. But my feel for the assaults and logis is they have much less use on the field than the calsent except as snipers. Same, I'm very interested to know. I don't necessarily agree with Breakin's idea, but I would like to know more data before I make any sort of decision. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 904	Posted - 2015.05.28 10:06:00 - [344] - Quote Another thought. A more accurate version of the brick fit plot would be to use 1/2 of slots as hp mods. Shields for Caldari and Minmatar, ferroscale for Amarr and Gallente light and medium, plate for Amarr and Gallente sentinels. This would give a more accurate picture of how things actually are in game.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 10:13:00 - [345] - Quote I am very impressed with changes you have made. TL;DR from the last two pages. - Logis walk faster (every one who tried keeping up with a moving squad with rep tool will appreciate this). - Assaults sprint retained (keeping high mobilitiy and getting from one place to another). You walk slower, but have burst of energy for movement. - Assaults get an over all movement buff (sprint speed and stamina regen) instead of a straight minmatar nerf to keep with proper ratio. So the amarr assults will walk slower than commandos, but have a much higher burst of speed, more stamina, so they move better. - Logis must fill equipment slot (no brainer for any real logi) - Amarr logi keeps its sidearm - Commando buff (movement speed and a slot) For a hotfix, man this is some good stuff. I enjoy good tradeoff systems, and this is shaping up to reflect that. The only OCD request I have is update the OP or put the new adjustments in the last few pages in a new thread. This you'll avoid alot of QQ comments to come, continue a feedback discussion, rather than reactions to the first post. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 11:00:00 - [346] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: After digging around all day in stamina and regen, I can safely conclude that with regard to mobility, the Minmatar faction has, due to I believe a fundamental misconception, been double dipping in the speed jar. The comparisons were done on both "distance covered until stamina pool is fully recharged" and "average speed while covering a fixed distance". The intent with the design was to allow minmatar to travel approximately 5% faster, and Amarr approx 5% slower. Whereas, minmatar actually travels 10% faster and 15% faster than Amarr. Now, I don't want to punish them, but bring the rest up. For example, this means that Caldari Assault will now have 35 stam regen instead of 20, and Amarr 45, while Minmatar stays at 50. With the reduction of normal speed, and differentation through sprinting, I hope we have a really good model as a foundation for speed. The rules of thumb as applied to the Medium class now: Mobility (stamina pool and recovery) CA/GA = normal Amarr= 5% lower Minmatar = 5% higher Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x eHP Basic = normal Logistics = lower Assault = higher Speed Basic = normal Logistics = higher Assault = lower Shield Regen on hold While there is nothing gamebreaking about this increase, it will result in more fluidity across the spectrum and be a little more enjoyable. This will have a cascading effect, as for example Light Basics are very out of shape in regard to most of these things. The other basics are more in line. hallelujah!! **** the matari \o/
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars 412	Posted - 2015.05.28 11:04:00 - [347] - Quote Please consider not nerfing the speed of std/adv/pro medium basic frames. They are already inferior to assaults. They only have 1 or 2 defined viable roles that out do assaults. While Assault suits 'out do' there racial basic medium frame suits in every other way. Hope that's not confusing
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 11:08:00 - [348] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Shield Regen on hold For shield regen, may I suggest lowering the recharger and energizer efficiency by 10% and setting the shield depleted recharge delay as the only time shields stop regenerating? The lower HP pool and absolutely destructive effect by shield breaker weapons will keep them in line, while lowering the capacity of the rail rifle and combat rifle from casually blowing through the shallower HP pools. The regen loss due to shield regen stopping from a stray shot can be crippling To a shield user. The only dropsuit that is shield dependent and viable in a firefight with scramblers or plasma in close is the calsent. I'm not saying that shields should be equal in a brawl, but right now they fold up like a wet sack under fire, and by and large it's hard for me to determine why. The balance between shields and armor is close, but without the sniper outliers they feel like they need something. Without more kill/spawn numbers from you on various weapon/suit combos I can only go on the oobservation that caldari shield fits feel squishy as hell, wheras the minmatar can get away with either armor fits with damage mods or a speed fit with a shield buffer or damage rack to tear up the battleground. Interested to hear your thoughts on this topic, honestly. I'm actually very interested in the numbers and if I am wrong. But my feel for the assaults and logis is they have much less use on the field than the calsent except as snipers. i dont know man. ive fought caldari vs caldari through bad hit detection and lag... a 1v1 lasted almost 10 mins with both of going through almost 4 proto nanohives. if the shields always were recharging, it'd be near impossible to kill them as they wiggle and strafe. I honestly thought I wanted what youre asking for myself almost a year or two ago but not anymore. it'd be horrible. I'd rather the shield hp to regen ratio looked at. particularly so that shields always recharge to full within a given time frame, regardless of total shield capacity.
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H No Context 571	Posted - 2015.05.28 11:08:00 - [349] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which ... have mobility crossing into Scout territory. http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/1192/11893 ^ ~900HP at 9.18 m/s sprint. replace one of the kincats with card regs! the poor gallentean will run out of breath quite fast. Still scary though Click me
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.28 11:36:00 - [350] - Quote I actually use cardiacs on a lot of fits. The minmatar sentinel especially performs insanely well with cardiacs. their stamina may regen fast, but the ability to put a lot of distance between yourself and the jerk with the scram can mean the difference between life and death. Not everyone agrees with me. But the cardiac regulators are a mainstay for my fits That need to travel long distances Without dropping an LAV. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H No Context 571	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:06:00 - [351] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I actually use cardiacs on a lot of fits. The minmatar sentinel especially performs insanely well with cardiacs. their stamina may regen fast, but the ability to put a lot of distance between yourself and the jerk with the scram can mean the difference between life and death. Not everyone agrees with me. But the cardiac regulators are a mainstay for my fits That need to travel long distances Without dropping an LAV. Using two card regs on amarr suits besides heavies will get me to run for eternity~ Click me
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:13:00 - [352] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Making Assault sprint faster is a very smart idea. Maybe reducing Logi stamina as well. Going to thank Adipem Nothi for putting the numbers on paper. What he proposed was inline with my idea that assaults need to quickly rejoin the fight after dying (we do that a lot). Plus, moving from cover set to cover set requires high sprint speeds. Walk/strafe is 100% negotiable if we can still sprint like Usain Bolt. Reducing logi max stamina would help to further crystallize the assault role and hammer down anyone silly enough to start spouting ZOMG COMBAT LOGIZ! @Ripley_Riley "I NEED NO PILLS I'M A FUCKING GOAT!" - Cat Merc
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:17:00 - [353] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: To Aeon: Rattati posted dropsuit KDR showing assaults to have considerably better KDR than other suits. The market data shows that assault suit sales vastly outstrip other dropsuits. This all includes Gallente assaults. Just because Gal assaults have a slightly worse bonus compared to Amarr and Minmatar assaults, does not mean they should be exempt from assault balancing. Regarding balancing Min assaults specifically, I recommend either a) reducing stamina / stamina regen to make them more similar to other assaults. Or b) reducing hp to make them more like scouts, inline with the Minmatar tradition of having suits that blend with the lighter tier above them on the hp / speed curve. Do you remember back in 1.7 where they buffed HAVs and then nerfed AV at the same time? Honest question. Nothing has ever been solved by buffing/nerfing at the same time. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 905	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:25:00 - [354] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: To Aeon: Rattati posted dropsuit KDR showing assaults to have considerably better KDR than other suits. The market data shows that assault suit sales vastly outstrip other dropsuits. This all includes Gallente assaults. Just because Gal assaults have a slightly worse bonus compared to Amarr and Minmatar assaults, does not mean they should be exempt from assault balancing. Regarding balancing Min assaults specifically, I recommend either a) reducing stamina / stamina regen to make them more similar to other assaults. Or b) reducing hp to make them more like scouts, inline with the Minmatar tradition of having suits that blend with the lighter tier above them on the hp / speed curve. Do you remember back in 1.7 where they buffed HAVs and then nerfed AV at the same time? Honest question. Nothing has ever been solved by buffing/nerfing at the same time. No, it's a bad idea to buff something and nerf it's counter. Assaults aren't a specific counter to logis so there isn't a problem.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:30:00 - [355] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: To Aeon: Rattati posted dropsuit KDR showing assaults to have considerably better KDR than other suits. The market data shows that assault suit sales vastly outstrip other dropsuits. This all includes Gallente assaults. Just because Gal assaults have a slightly worse bonus compared to Amarr and Minmatar assaults, does not mean they should be exempt from assault balancing. Regarding balancing Min assaults specifically, I recommend either a) reducing stamina / stamina regen to make them more similar to other assaults. Or b) reducing hp to make them more like scouts, inline with the Minmatar tradition of having suits that blend with the lighter tier above them on the hp / speed curve. Do you remember back in 1.7 where they buffed HAVs and then nerfed AV at the same time? Honest question. Nothing has ever been solved by buffing/nerfing at the same time. No, it's a bad idea to buff something and nerf it's counter. Assaults aren't a specific counter to logis so there isn't a problem. Oh well in that case buff the -hell- out of my Assault Rifle because it's not a counter to the Rail Rifle at 70m. Just because it's not a direct counter doesn't mean that the two aren't going to interact in some way. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:33:00 - [356] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Where as the faction fit ck.0 wielding a RR certainly can kill an ak.0 or gk.0 outside of their racial weapons optimal range, which is not a very defense oriented action all things considered Four. Meter. Difference. Between ARR & ASCR/SCR. Amarr assaults beat the snot out of cal assaults more often than not. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Mobius Wyvern Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:35:00 - [357] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: To Aeon: Rattati posted dropsuit KDR showing assaults to have considerably better KDR than other suits. The market data shows that assault suit sales vastly outstrip other dropsuits. This all includes Gallente assaults. Just because Gal assaults have a slightly worse bonus compared to Amarr and Minmatar assaults, does not mean they should be exempt from assault balancing. Regarding balancing Min assaults specifically, I recommend either a) reducing stamina / stamina regen to make them more similar to other assaults. Or b) reducing hp to make them more like scouts, inline with the Minmatar tradition of having suits that blend with the lighter tier above them on the hp / speed curve. Do you remember back in 1.7 where they buffed HAVs and then nerfed AV at the same time? Honest question. Nothing has ever been solved by buffing/nerfing at the same time. No, it's a bad idea to buff something and nerf it's counter. Assaults aren't a specific counter to logis so there isn't a problem. Oh well in that case buff the -hell- out of my Assault Rifle because it's not a counter to the Rail Rifle at 70m. Just because it's not a direct counter doesn't mean that the two aren't going to interact in some way. Personally, I wish we could get a speed increase for Logistics to help them better keep up with the suits they're supporting without nerfing Assaults in the process. I liked Aeon's post about speed issues with suits left over from Old CCP, and I hope this in some way addresses those, but I'm not sold on the idea of slowing down an entire class without approaching it in a more gradual manner. In any case, hopefully if this results in unintended consequences it can be addressed quickly. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:39:00 - [358] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: TL/DR: No to changing sprint modifiers, instead give assaults a skill bonus to speed. Penalizes those with less SP since they won't have the assault dropsuit command skill as high. Let's please refrain from making Dust 514 harder on newberries than it already is. @Ripley_Riley "I NEED NO PILLS I'M A FUCKING GOAT!" - Cat Merc
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:40:00 - [359] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x I may be misunderstanding what you mean by "normal" above. The base movement figures on Page 1 do not appear to be +/- 10% ... is the new proposal as follows? Assault - 10% current base movement w/ sprint multiplier of 1.5 Logi +10% current base movement w/ sprint multiplier of 1.3 * I ask because ^ this would leave the MN Logi with faster base movement (5.50 m/s) than the current MN Assault (5.30) as well as the AM, GA and CA Scouts (5.25, 5.45, 5.45). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:42:00 - [360] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: To Aeon: Rattati posted dropsuit KDR showing assaults to have considerably better KDR than other suits. The market data shows that assault suit sales vastly outstrip other dropsuits. This all includes Gallente assaults. Just because Gal assaults have a slightly worse bonus compared to Amarr and Minmatar assaults, does not mean they should be exempt from assault balancing. Regarding balancing Min assaults specifically, I recommend either a) reducing stamina / stamina regen to make them more similar to other assaults. Or b) reducing hp to make them more like scouts, inline with the Minmatar tradition of having suits that blend with the lighter tier above them on the hp / speed curve. Do you remember back in 1.7 where they buffed HAVs and then nerfed AV at the same time? Honest question. Nothing has ever been solved by buffing/nerfing at the same time. No, it's a bad idea to buff something and nerf it's counter. Assaults aren't a specific counter to logis so there isn't a problem. Oh well in that case buff the -hell- out of my Assault Rifle because it's not a counter to the Rail Rifle at 70m. Just because it's not a direct counter doesn't mean that the two aren't going to interact in some way. Personally, I wish we could get a speed increase for Logistics to help them better keep up with the suits they're supporting without nerfing Assaults in the process. I liked Aeon's post about speed issues with suits left over from Old CCP, and I hope this in some way addresses those, but I'm not sold on the idea of slowing down an entire class without approaching it in a more gradual manner. In any case, hopefully if this results in unintended consequences it can be addressed quickly. I mean for real, it's like, yeah, Assaults are over-used and Logis/Commandos are under-used. Why is it 100% necessary to change all of them when a comparable buff to Logis/Commandos might just be all that's needed? What evidence do we have that supports that buffing Logis/Commandos and subsequently nerfing Assaults in the same pass -ISN'T- going to drastically shift the meta spectrum in a way that is unhealthy? We're going for this huge overarching change on the hopes and prayers that maybe it'll work with the added consequence of another six months dev time being spent toward balancing it all in the eventuality that it doesn't. Rather than the logical thing which would be to take it slow, do it in stages, and maybe find the balance on the way there. We're going -RIGHT BACK- to the Balance Pendulum where we make so many drastic changes that we overshoot our goal and have to dial it back and forth until it starts working. Which by that point we'd have come up with another "looks good on paper" proposal and go through the entire process again. The solution is clear and very simple: Buff the Logistics/Commandos. See how it works. If people start to transition from the Assaults to those classes than the nerf might not be entirely necessary. If it's doesn't, then we can -ABSOLUTELY- continue with the rest of the changes. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!

Mobius Wyvern Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:45:00 - [361] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I mean for real, it's like, yeah, Assaults are over-used and Logis/Commandos are under-used. Why is it 100% necessary to change all of them when a comparable buff to Logis/Commandos might just be all that's needed? What evidence do we have that supports that buffing Logis/Commandos and subsequently nerfing Assaults in the same pass -ISN'T- going to drastically shift the meta spectrum in a way that is unhealthy? We're going for this huge overarching change on the hopes and prayers that maybe it'll work with the added consequence of another six months dev time being spent toward balancing it all in the eventuality that it doesn't. Rather than the logical thing which would be to take it slow, do it in stages, and maybe find the balance on the way there. We're going -RIGHT BACK- to the Balance Pendulum where we make so many drastic changes that we overshoot our goal and have to dial it back and forth until it starts working. Which by that point we'd have come up with another "looks good on paper" proposal and go through the entire process again. The solution is clear and very simple: Buff the Logistics/Commandos. See how it works. If people start to transition from the Assaults to those classes than the nerf might not be entirely necessary. If it's doesn't, then we can -ABSOLUTELY- continue with the rest of the changes. Actually, in addition to this, is the fact that Assault suits are the primary role first specced into by new players being taken into account? Both Logistics and Commandos tend to be a secondary priority as far as speccing, which would put their numbers far lower than Assault by default. Given this is an FPS, most people tend to go for Slayer before they go for Support. That's being factored into the data being used to set up this change, right? Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:46:00 - [362] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Now that's an interesting find. That minmatar were double dipping on speed? Not really, that was something we knew way, way back when we were screaming at CCP to please un** the initial iteration of the amarr scout, where it got to a place dead last by considerable amounts compared to any other scout (and even the min assault). IIRC initial amscout vs minscout the amscout ended up getting to places ~20-40% slower if it was fit with anything remotely approaching a 'normal' fit. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:56:00 - [363] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The way I chose was to calculate mobility as a "traverse" index, how long does it take to cross X meters, and how far can I get through one sprint and sprint recovery phase. I need to the same thing for shields and shield regen. Actually pretty slick, I like that. +1 "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 905	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:01:00 - [364] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I mean for real, it's like, yeah, Assaults are over-used and Logis/Commandos are under-used. Why is it 100% necessary to change all of them when a comparable buff to Logis/Commandos might just be all that's needed? What evidence do we have that supports that buffing Logis/Commandos and subsequently nerfing Assaults in the same pass -ISN'T- going to drastically shift the meta spectrum in a way that is unhealthy? We're going for this huge overarching change on the hopes and prayers that maybe it'll work with the added consequence of another six months dev time being spent toward balancing it all in the eventuality that it doesn't. Rather than the logical thing which would be to take it slow, do it in stages, and maybe find the balance on the way there. We're going -RIGHT BACK- to the Balance Pendulum where we make so many drastic changes that we overshoot our goal and have to dial it back and forth until it starts working. Which by that point we'd have come up with another "looks good on paper" proposal and go through the entire process again. The solution is clear and very simple: Buff the Logistics/Commandos. See how it works. If people start to transition from the Assaults to those classes than the nerf might not be entirely necessary. If it's doesn't, then we can -ABSOLUTELY- continue with the rest of the changes. I totally get what you are saying (although we've moved away from what you were originally saying about Gallente Assaults, that I was responding to). Which is why I asked Rattati not to implement the changes originally proposed as I thought they were too extreme. It doesn't look like you have much to worry about anyway, as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same, just nerf movement (kind of meaningless) and buff stamina. So barely a nerf at all. In principle though, all assault suits appear to be a little overpowered when compared with all other classes, not just logis and commandos. So buffing logis and commandos at the same time is irrelevant, as assaults will still be op when compared to sentinels and scouts.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:05:00 - [365] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Just because it's not a direct counter doesn't mean that the two aren't going to interact in some way. If I'm understanding the latest iteration correctly, Assaults will have more HP than Logis, they'll sprint faster than Logis , and they have more room for high-end weaponry (and tank) than Logis. Are we seeing this the same way? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:07:00 - [366] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: ... as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same . So the MN Assault will still sprint faster than the AM Scout? I was hoping that 'bit of overlap would be corrected. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:16:00 - [367] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I mean for real, it's like, yeah, Assaults are over-used and Logis/Commandos are under-used. Why is it 100% necessary to change all of them when a comparable buff to Logis/Commandos might just be all that's needed? What evidence do we have that supports that buffing Logis/Commandos and subsequently nerfing Assaults in the same pass -ISN'T- going to drastically shift the meta spectrum in a way that is unhealthy? We're going for this huge overarching change on the hopes and prayers that maybe it'll work with the added consequence of another six months dev time being spent toward balancing it all in the eventuality that it doesn't. Rather than the logical thing which would be to take it slow, do it in stages, and maybe find the balance on the way there. We're going -RIGHT BACK- to the Balance Pendulum where we make so many drastic changes that we overshoot our goal and have to dial it back and forth until it starts working. Which by that point we'd have come up with another "looks good on paper" proposal and go through the entire process again. The solution is clear and very simple: Buff the Logistics/Commandos. See how it works. If people start to transition from the Assaults to those classes than the nerf might not be entirely necessary. If it's doesn't, then we can -ABSOLUTELY- continue with the rest of the changes. I totally get what you are saying (although we've moved away from what you were originally saying about Gallente Assaults, that I was responding to). Which is why I asked Rattati not to implement the changes originally proposed as I thought they were too extreme. It doesn't look like you have much to worry about anyway, as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same, just nerf movement (kind of meaningless) and buff stamina. So barely a nerf at all. In principle though, all assault suits appear to be a little overpowered when compared with all other classes, not just logis and commandos. So buffing logis and commandos at the same time is irrelevant, as assaults will still be op when compared to sentinels and scouts. I'll take the movement speed over the sprint speed -ANY- day. Movement speed is direct correlation to survivability in combat and if it weren't it wouldn't even be up for debate or that controversial of a change; we could even go to an extreme to prove that point by saying "Scouts should have the same movement speed as Logis" in this case and watch the cascade of hatred/rage come pouring out of the Barbershop. Sprint speed I can change. Stamina I can change. Movement speed? There's nothing I can do about it. It will only ever get worse as I start adding more armor. I don't care about getting into the fight faster - if I wanted to do that I'd run Scout or add some Kin-cats. I care about living long enough through the engagement to make use of everything else my fit is concerned with. It is not in any way meaningless. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 906	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:16:00 - [368] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: ... as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same . So the MN Assault will still sprint faster than the AM Scout? If we're sticking to the figures on Page 1, this overlap would not occur. MN Assault Base of 4.80 with a sprint multiplier of 1.5 yields sprint speed of 7.56 (less than AM Scout's 7.72). If not the figures on Page 1, what figures are we using? My understanding is we are going with figures on page 1, so yes, Min assaults would suffer a sprint speed reduction. I was thinking about assaults in general and forgot about this tweak. Specifically I was referring to Rattati's post stating that assault sprint speeds would remain the same as now, but I'm sure he meant apart from Min assaults, as he was referencing the page 1 proposal with the sprint modifier added.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 908	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:23:00 - [369] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I'll take the movement speed over the sprint speed -ANY- day. Why am I not surprised. But I concede it's not a worthless stat, though I suspect the proposed reduction will have only moderate in game effect. Too slow and it's a problem, but this proposal is only a minor nerf. And may I just say, on the subject of incremental changes. I said a number of times, prior to the major assault buff, that adding a module slot at the same time as 100 base hp, was too much of a buff in one go. Seems I was right.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:23:00 - [370] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: ... as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same . So the MN Assault will still sprint faster than the AM Scout? If we're sticking to the figures on Page 1, this overlap would not occur. MN Assault Base of 4.80 with a sprint multiplier of 1.5 yields sprint speed of 7.56 (less than AM Scout's 7.72). If not the figures on Page 1, what figures are we using? My understanding is we are going with figures on page 1, so yes, Min assaults would suffer a sprint speed reduction. I was thinking about assaults in general and forgot about this tweak. Specifically I was referring to Rattati's post stating that assault sprint speeds would remain the same as now, but I'm sure he meant apart from Min assaults, as he was referencing the page 1 proposal with the sprint modifier added. Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x ^ This excerpt from his latest post has me confused as well; if I'm reading this correctly, it returns an altogether different set of numbers than those graphed on Page 1. And both of these number sets are different from the number set needed for Assaults to maintain current sprint speeds at a 1.5 multiplier. :: tinkers with spreadsheet :: Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 908	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:29:00 - [371] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: ... as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same . So the MN Assault will still sprint faster than the AM Scout? If we're sticking to the figures on Page 1, this overlap would not occur. MN Assault Base of 4.80 with a sprint multiplier of 1.5 yields sprint speed of 7.56 (less than AM Scout's 7.72). If not the figures on Page 1, what figures are we using? My understanding is we are going with figures on page 1, so yes, Min assaults would suffer a sprint speed reduction. I was thinking about assaults in general and forgot about this tweak. Specifically I was referring to Rattati's post stating that assault sprint speeds would remain the same as now, but I'm sure he meant apart from Min assaults, as he was referencing the page 1 proposal with the sprint modifier added. Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x ^ This excerpt from his latest post has me confused as well; if I'm reading this correctly, it returns an altogether different set of numbers than those graphed on Page 1. And both of these number sets are different from the number set needed to maintain current sprint speeds at a 1.5 multiplier. :: tinkers with spreadsheet :: I was under the impression this just refers to the sprint modifier. This quote from Rattati: Medium (Logistics and Assault) Speed changes as in OP Sprint changes, Logis from 1.4 to 1.3 modifier, means they have the same sprint speed as they do now Assault from 1.4 to 1.5, means they retain current sprint I thought still stands, meaning sprint speeds won't change (except from Min assaults). I could be wrong. I haven't checked that page 1 assault speed x 1.5 = current sprint speed. Maybe the post you quoted changes things don't know.
VikingKong iBUN 0uter.Heaven 399	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:36:00 - [372] - Quote Name the Commando something else. A Commando should be a light frame with two light weapon slots, and should have more hp than a scout but less speed and EWAR capabilities. (like the old Black Eagle suits.) Whoever's idea it was to make Commando suits fat and slow clearly did absolute zero research on Commandos. I would like a Gallente SMG.
castba Rogue Instincts New Eden's Heros 917	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:38:00 - [373] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Would it be possible to lower the strafe speed multiplier by any chance? Having more tactical, use cover effectively instead of charge then wiggle wiggle fire fights would be great. "When everything is OP, nothing is" - CCP Ratatti
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:41:00 - [374] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I'll take the movement speed over the sprint speed -ANY- day. Why am I not surprised. But I concede it's not a worthless stat, though I suspect the proposed reduction will have only moderate in game effect. Too slow and it's a problem, but this proposal is only a minor nerf. And may I just say, on the subject of incremental changes. I said a number of times, prior to the major assault buff, that adding a module slot at the same time as 100 base hp, was too much of a buff in one go. Seems I was right. So it's a problem that I would prefer to have movement speed over sprint speed? Is that why you're mockingly posting rolley-eyed smileys? Excuse me while I accept the point that my opinion isn't worthwhile here. BS aside, if it's so much of a minor change then why would it be up for debate for Logistics players? Early you said it was meaningless, now you're saying it's not a worthless stat but it's a minor change - but if that's the case then it wouldn't be as controversial as it is. Because it's not. Let me speak from experience here: Prototype Gallente Assault (oh nooos he's talking about his playstyle, something he's familiar with instead of talking out of his ass about something he doesn't play) with x5 Complex Reactive Plates = 4.75m/s movement speed right now. After the nerf, that drops down to 4.37m/s That's right around the same movement speed as a Gallente Commando (which obviously is a pretty stark difference in mobility). Interestingly enough, what I get for that by comparison is: Gal Assault with x5 Complex Reactives: 193.75 shield 673.75 aarmor 867.5 EHP 19.5hp/s armor repair rate Gal Commando with absolutely nothing on it: 487.5 shields 656.25 armor 1143.75 EHP 4 hp/s So the trade-off for adding on a bunch of Reactive Plates is that I have the same mobility as a Commando (with faster sprint speed -I guess-), worse EHP, no second light weapon, and a grenade. Functionally? The Commando weighs in as the victor because he has more firepower, better bonuses, and higher EHP. The Assault gets... Well, higher sprint speed and a grenade. Do you see my issue now? The Assault has nothing that makes it unique, the bonuses are subpar, and now the mobility is going to be on par with Commandos in certain situations albeit with a lack of EHP and damage application. What role does the Assault serve? A bridge between Scouts and Commandos with none of the benefits of either...? Instead of trying to address that, we're noting the fact that they're being used because other roles aren't up to snuff and punishing them for that. We're not hallmarking on distinctive roles or unique applicability, we're just nerfing it because it's "whats in" right now. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:43:00 - [375] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: ... as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same . So the MN Assault will still sprint faster than the AM Scout? If we're sticking to the figures on Page 1, this overlap would not occur. MN Assault Base of 4.80 with a sprint multiplier of 1.5 yields sprint speed of 7.56 (less than AM Scout's 7.72). If not the figures on Page 1, what figures are we using? My understanding is we are going with figures on page 1, so yes, Min assaults would suffer a sprint speed reduction. I was thinking about assaults in general and forgot about this tweak. Specifically I was referring to Rattati's post stating that assault sprint speeds would remain the same as now, but I'm sure he meant apart from Min assaults, as he was referencing the page 1 proposal with the sprint modifier added. Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x ^ This excerpt from his latest post has me confused as well; if I'm reading this correctly, it returns an altogether different set of numbers than those graphed on Page 1. And both of these number sets are different from the number set needed to maintain current sprint speeds at a 1.5 multiplier. :: tinkers with spreadsheet :: I was under the impression this just refers to the sprint modifier. This quote from Rattati: Medium (Logistics and Assault) Speed changes as in OP Sprint changes, Logis from 1.4 to 1.3 modifier, means they have the same sprint speed as they do now Assault from 1.4 to 1.5, means they retain current sprint I thought still stands, meaning sprint speeds won't change (except from Min assaults). I could be wrong. I haven't checked that page 1 assault speed x 1.5 = current sprint speed. Maybe the post you quoted changes things don't know. Google Doc By my math, the first iteration (Page 1 Graph) has less potential for overlap issues than the following iterations. I understand that we're working more with concepts than hard numbers at this time ... Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Oswald Rehnquist 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:52:00 - [376] - Quote Good thing its super late/early otherwise my good senses would get the better of me. I'm actually having trouble trying to tie down your arguments. What and Why? Aeon Amadi wrote: I can't even wrap my head around the irony here - the argument (I assume as I still haven't gotten a direct answer) was that Assaults were too mobile and got too much EHP for this hypothetical EHP/Speed curve Yet, not three pages ago, we were arguing that an Assault can get 9m/s sprint speed with 900 EHP. So what's the -actual- problem? What are you guys trying to accomplish here besides making the shoe fit after you've hit the foot with the hammer? Again I'm indifferent, but I don't find it hard to understand or locate the what and why of the arguments, whether we agree with them or not is not important to fundamentally understand what others see as a problem. Others clearly believe that assaults have too much hp for their mobility, that is literally the basis of the concern, and it didn't' seem to be some unstated intention. Rat's suggestion is clearly some form of compromise as an attempt to allow assaults to keep pushing the frontal lines by being able to cover the same distance in the same time as they currently do while still fitting on his regression line of ehp and speed which is based on scout and sentinel anchor points. The scale Aeon Amadi wrote: "Scouts should have the same movement speed as Logis" in this case and watch the cascade of hatred/rage come pouring out of the Barbershop. Aeon Amadi wrote: I'll take the movement speed over the sprint speed -ANY- day. It might be possible that you miss the point of the curve. By reducing the scout speed to logi status, it then gains logi ehp potential. Also any introduction of new suits (not happening), would easily be placed on this spectrum based on knowing just one of the numbers on this stat. Also we can theoretically with a ehp speed scale reduce assault ehp potential and increase their base speed if you value speed more so than health, in which case its not the curve but the value in speed which is the source of conflict here. In short, I'm just trying to see what is really the core of your concerns, I can't tell if you actually don't know what they are trying to do, or its that you just value base walk speed more than ehp, or you think 2 things changing at once is terrible, or that assaults shouldn't have to follow the tic for tac exchange which all the other suits are being modified by. I don't have to defend the position because its not mine, but I'd say its rather hard to give a good reply when the list kind of goes all over the place rather than focusing on one concern at a time. Below 28 dB
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 909	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:06:00 - [377] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: So it's a problem that I would prefer to have movement speed over sprint speed? Is that why you're mockingly posting rolley-eyed smileys? Prototype Gallente Assault (oh nooos he's talking about his playstyle, something he's familiar with instead of talking out of his ass about something he doesn't play) with x5 Complex Reactive Plates = 4.75m/s movement speed right now. After the nerf, that drops down to 4.37m/s That's right around the same movement speed as a Gallente Commando (which obviously is a pretty stark difference in mobility). interesting commando - assault comparison The eye roll was just because it was kind of funny that out of the two potential buffs, you much preferred the one you weren't getting. You do seem to have a slightly fatalistic outlook. Try to look on the bright side! It was a bit mean of me though, and I'm sure you are sincere, even though I disagree with you. By the way, I changed my assessment of the movement speed nerf from "meaningless" to a "minor nerf" and later "a nerf, but not a bad one" because I have taken on board what you are saying and you swayed my opinion a little. Interesting comparison with a Gallente Commando. I don't think things are as bad for assaults as you think though. The Commando will need to fit mostly regen to get reasonable armour regen. And whilst they have higher shields, the regen is worse, and they have a larger hitbox, and they have poorer stamina and stamina regen, and they have poorer EWAR stats. Mainly though I feel you are really undervaluing sprint speed. That said, reducing movement speed to near commando speeds is kind of slow, I'll give you that. Haven't checked the numbers, but I'll trust you. So I will further revise my assessment. Movements speed, other than sprint, will suffer a substantial nerf. I still don't think this will likely constitute a major nerf to the assault role overall, considering the fact that sprint speeds will be maintained. I still don't particularly like the idea of messing with sprint speed modifiers though.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:12:00 - [378] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: ... as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same . So the MN Assault will still sprint faster than the AM Scout? If we're sticking to the figures on Page 1, this overlap would not occur. MN Assault Base of 4.80 with a sprint multiplier of 1.5 yields sprint speed of 7.56 (less than AM Scout's 7.72). If not the figures on Page 1, what figures are we using? My understanding is we are going with figures on page 1, so yes, Min assaults would suffer a sprint speed reduction. I was thinking about assaults in general and forgot about this tweak. Specifically I was referring to Rattati's post stating that assault sprint speeds would remain the same as now, but I'm sure he meant apart from Min assaults, as he was referencing the page 1 proposal with the sprint modifier added. Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x ^ This excerpt from his latest post has me confused as well; if I'm reading this correctly, it returns an altogether different set of numbers than those graphed on Page 1. And both of these number sets are different from the number set needed for Assaults to maintain current sprint speeds at a 1.5 multiplier. :: tinkers with spreadsheet :: Now I am home and practicing my guitar, wondering whether to brave Bloodborne again, or stay here and do more math. Don't spend too much time on the numbers until you have more data from me, I have taken things into account from here, and am pretty sure I will reduce assault speed much less, maybe 0.3 instead of 0.5 and also increase stamina and sprint modifier. It's all good guys, and I am trying to make a smart, robust and fair system out of the thing we have. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:15:00 - [379] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: :: tinkers with spreadsheet :: Don't spend too much time on the numbers until you have more data from me ... Understood. Here's what I have so far (just updated): Google Doc Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:17:00 - [380] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I'll take the movement speed over the sprint speed -ANY- day. Why am I not surprised. But I concede it's not a worthless stat, though I suspect the proposed reduction will have only moderate in game effect. Too slow and it's a problem, but this proposal is only a minor nerf. And may I just say, on the subject of incremental changes. I said a number of times, prior to the major assault buff, that adding a module slot at the same time as 100 base hp, was too much of a buff in one go. Seems I was right. So it's a problem that I would prefer to have movement speed over sprint speed? Is that why you're mockingly posting rolley-eyed smileys? Excuse me while I accept the point that my opinion isn't worthwhile here. BS aside, if it's so much of a minor change then why would it be up for debate for Logistics players? Early you said it was meaningless, now you're saying it's not a worthless stat but it's a minor change - but if that's the case then it wouldn't be as controversial as it is. Because it's not. Let me speak from experience here: Prototype Gallente Assault (oh nooos he's talking about his playstyle, something he's familiar with instead of talking out of his ass about something he doesn't play) with x5 Complex Reactive Plates = 4.75m/s movement speed right now. After the nerf, that drops down to 4.37m/s That's right around the same movement speed as a Gallente Commando (which obviously is a pretty stark difference in mobility). Interestingly enough, what I get for that by comparison is: Gal Assault with x5 Complex Reactives: 193.75 shield 673.75 aarmor 867.5 EHP 19.5hp/s armor repair rate Gal Commando with absolutely nothing on it: 487.5 shields 656.25 armor 1143.75 EHP 4 hp/s So the trade-off for adding on a bunch of Reactive Plates is that I have the same mobility as a Commando (with faster sprint speed -I guess-), worse EHP, no second light weapon, and a grenade. Functionally? The Commando weighs in as the victor because he has more firepower, better bonuses, and higher EHP. The Assault gets... Well, higher sprint speed and a grenade. Do you see my issue now? The Assault has nothing that makes it unique, the bonuses are subpar, and now the mobility is going to be on par with Commandos in certain situations albeit with a lack of EHP and damage application. What role does the Assault serve? A bridge between Scouts and Commandos with none of the benefits of either...? Instead of trying to address that, we're noting the fact that they're being used because other roles aren't up to snuff and punishing them for that. We're not hallmarking on distinctive roles or unique applicability, we're just nerfing it because it's "whats in" right now. I have decided not to read your posts in this thread anymore, and soon you will be banned, probably, for ranting, insinuating and tinfoiling. Even though I hate to do it, I will explain this once more. Players are always drawn to the best combination of HP and speed, this has been demonstrated often enough in DUST 514. Therefore, I am attempting to eliminate that "draw" by having a semi-fixed ratio of hp/speed so players can actually just choose what they want to play for the right reasons. Another insinuation of "Rattati just likes straight lines, there is no reason" and there will be consequences. Even on top of that, Assaults are the top meta right now for that reason. If I reduce Assault down to the curve and drag logis and commandos up to it, there is less risk of a nerf/buff chain reaction. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:18:00 - [381] - Quote Rattati ****** up... when he move PG mods to highs he unleashed some true BS. my cal assault has 634 shields and 639 armor i got another fit with 634 shields 3sec delay and runs at 9.18m/s wtf just happened?
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 910	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:19:00 - [382] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: ... as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same . So the MN Assault will still sprint faster than the AM Scout? If we're sticking to the figures on Page 1, this overlap would not occur. MN Assault Base of 4.80 with a sprint multiplier of 1.5 yields sprint speed of 7.56 (less than AM Scout's 7.72). If not the figures on Page 1, what figures are we using? My understanding is we are going with figures on page 1, so yes, Min assaults would suffer a sprint speed reduction. I was thinking about assaults in general and forgot about this tweak. Specifically I was referring to Rattati's post stating that assault sprint speeds would remain the same as now, but I'm sure he meant apart from Min assaults, as he was referencing the page 1 proposal with the sprint modifier added. Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x ^ This excerpt from his latest post has me confused as well; if I'm reading this correctly, it returns an altogether different set of numbers than those graphed on Page 1. And both of these number sets are different from the number set needed for Assaults to maintain current sprint speeds at a 1.5 multiplier. :: tinkers with spreadsheet :: Now I am home and practicing my guitar, wondering whether to brave Bloodborne again, or stay here and do more math. Don't spend too much time on the numbers until you have more data from me, I have taken things into account from here, and am pretty sure I will reduce assault speed much less, maybe 0.3 instead of 0.5 and also increase stamina and sprint modifier. It's all good guys, and I am trying to make a smart, robust and fair system out of the thing we have. Relax, enjoy the guitar, try not to rage playing Bloodborne. I'm just getting excited about all this! Thanks for taking our feedback into consideration.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:21:00 - [383] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Good thing its super late/early otherwise my good senses would get the better of me. I'm actually having trouble trying to tie down your arguments. What and Why? Aeon Amadi wrote: I can't even wrap my head around the irony here - the argument (I assume as I still haven't gotten a direct answer) was that Assaults were too mobile and got too much EHP for this hypothetical EHP/Speed curve Yet, not three pages ago, we were arguing that an Assault can get 9m/s sprint speed with 900 EHP. So what's the -actual- problem? What are you guys trying to accomplish here besides making the shoe fit after you've hit the foot with the hammer? Again I'm indifferent, but I don't find it hard to understand or locate the what and why of the arguments, whether we agree with them or not is not important to fundamentally understand what others see as a problem. Others clearly believe that assaults have too much hp for their mobility, that is literally the basis of the concern, and it didn't' seem to be some unstated intention. Rat's suggestion is clearly some form of compromise as an attempt to allow assaults to keep pushing the frontal lines by being able to cover the same distance in the same time as they currently do while still fitting on his regression line of ehp and speed which is based on scout and sentinel anchor points. The scale Aeon Amadi wrote: "Scouts should have the same movement speed as Logis" in this case and watch the cascade of hatred/rage come pouring out of the Barbershop. Aeon Amadi wrote: I'll take the movement speed over the sprint speed -ANY- day. It might be possible that you miss the point of the curve. By reducing the scout speed to logi status, it then gains logi ehp potential. Also any introduction of new suits (not happening), would easily be placed on this spectrum based on knowing just one of the numbers on this stat. Also we can theoretically with a ehp speed scale reduce assault ehp potential and increase their base speed if you value speed more so than health, in which case its not the curve but the value in speed which is the source of conflict here. In short, I'm just trying to see what is really the core of your concerns, I can't tell if not understanding the concerns of the other side, or its that you just value base walk speed more than ehp, or you think 2 things changing at once is terrible, or that assaults shouldn't have to follow the tic for tac exchange which all the other suits are being modified by because game mechanics don't work with a simple curve. I don't have to defend the position because its not mine, but I'd say its rather hard to give a good discussion when the list kind of goes all over the place rather than focusing on one concern at a time. edit: I have a feeling its the last underline/bold is the base of your concern, which is a good topic as there are many variables in the game besides speed and ehp. But then we should be discussing that, and not the other stuff. You said it better than I could. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:23:00 - [384] - Quote castba wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Would it be possible to lower the strafe speed multiplier by any chance? Having more tactical, use cover effectively instead of charge then wiggle wiggle fire fights would be great. Yes, but we actually just increased the strafe penalty on plates, but overall reduction of strafe can also been done, and contemplated by me often. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:26:00 - [385] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: castba wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Would it be possible to lower the strafe speed multiplier by any chance? Having more tactical, use cover effectively instead of charge then wiggle wiggle fire fights would be great. Yes, but we actually just increased the strafe penalty on plates, but overall reduction of strafe can also been done, and contemplated by me often. strafing at 60% base movement speed in chrome wasn't a feature too many people cried over. I still dunno why they upped it to 90 in 1.4 WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:31:00 - [386] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: castba wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Would it be possible to lower the strafe speed multiplier by any chance? Having more tactical, use cover effectively instead of charge then wiggle wiggle fire fights would be great. Yes, but we actually just increased the strafe penalty on plates, but overall reduction of strafe can also been done, and contemplated by me often. strafing at 60% base movement speed in chrome wasn't a feature too many people cried over. I still dunno why they upped it to 90 in 1.4 I would happily consider it again for the sake of other players, but I'm a MKB twitch fps player by heart and I think skill should be rewarded, and yes, good strafing while aiming is a difficult skill to master. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:42:00 - [387] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: castba wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Would it be possible to lower the strafe speed multiplier by any chance? Having more tactical, use cover effectively instead of charge then wiggle wiggle fire fights would be great. Yes, but we actually just increased the strafe penalty on plates, but overall reduction of strafe can also been done, and contemplated by me often. strafing at 60% base movement speed in chrome wasn't a feature too many people cried over. I still dunno why they upped it to 90 in 1.4 I would happily consider it again for the sake of other players, but I'm a MKB twitch fps player by heart and I think skill should be rewarded, and yes, good strafing while aiming is a difficult skill to master. I do nothing but Kb/m as well. My desire for reduction/inertia is from the observation that client side, hit detection doesn't handle it well, and the humand body cannot compensate and aim on an inertialess change of direction. However I'm actually holding out some hope that you hacking out most of the redundant models and mass adding the SKINs Will show us some better client/server communication and hit detection in match. So I'm not feeling quite as pushy. Your last FPS fix brought measurable results. I'm very morbidly curious to see if there's actually a functional client being crushed by database bloat and resource hogging. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:46:00 - [388] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: It might be possible that you miss the point of the curve. By reducing the scout speed to logi status, it then gains logi ehp potential. Also any introduction of new suits (not happening), would easily be placed on this spectrum based on knowing just one of the numbers on this stat. Also we can theoretically with a ehp speed scale reduce assault ehp potential and increase their base speed if you value speed more so than health, in which case its not the curve but the value in speed which is the source of conflict here. In short, I'm just trying to see what is really the core of your concerns, I can't tell if not understanding the concerns of the other side, or its that you just value base walk speed more than ehp, or you think 2 things changing at once is terrible, or that assaults shouldn't have to follow the tic for tac exchange which all the other suits are being modified by because game mechanics don't work with a simple curve. I don't have to defend the position because its not mine, but I'd say its rather hard to give a good discussion when the list kind of goes all over the place rather than focusing on one concern at a time. edit: I have a feeling its the last underline/bold is the base of your concern, which is a good topic as there are many variables in the game besides speed and ehp. But then we should be discussing that, and not the other stuff. My problem is that I had to repeatedly ask what the overall goal here was and I brought up points of contention that, I feel, weren't fully considered. It's not so much 'The core of my concerns' as all of it being concerning as a whole. - Yes, I value base walk speed more than EHP, because mobility is king in CQC. - Yes, I am concerned with making too many changes at once (because experience shows it -is- terrible) - I never once insinuated that Assaults shouldn't have to follow the tac-for-tac exchange. It is insanely hard to understand the concerns of the other side -when I can't get a clear and concise answer to my questions- and instead got arguments about how, in extreme situations, Assaults are capable of doing #stuff. This entire post was chalked up to tinfoil and was the start of my anger because I basically just typed all my views for nothing. The question (that I feel were not answered) I asked were: - How is the Gal Assault's role going to be made more viable so that it's intended design is being used competitively? - What is going to put the weaker Assaults on par with their current performance whereas the problem Assaults are justifiably brought down? - What unique role does the Assault play that justifies it's existence if other roles become more viable/overshadow it? What can the Assault do that no-one else can? - Why make these changes all at once instead of bringing up the Logis/Commandos -AND THEN- bringing the Assaults down? - What evidence do we have that supports that simultaneously buffing Logis/Commandos and nerfing Assaults in the same pass -ISN'T- going to drastically shift the meta spectrum in a way that is unhealthy? CCP Rattati wrote: I have decided not to read your posts in this thread anymore, and soon you will be banned, probably, for ranting, insinuating and tinfoiling. Even though I hate to do it, I will explain this once more. Players are always drawn to the best combination of HP and speed, this has been demonstrated often enough in DUST 514. Therefore, I am attempting to eliminate that "draw" by having a semi-fixed ratio of hp/speed so players can actually just choose what they want to play for the right reasons. Another insinuation of "Rattati just likes straight lines, there is no reason" and there will be consequences. Even on top of that, Assaults are the top meta right now for that reason. If I reduce Assault down to the curve and drag logis and commandos up to it, there is less risk of a nerf/buff chain reaction. If my concerns are ranting, and my lack of information is insinuating and tinfoiling, then there's nothing I can do to change the situation. If that's the only option, then ban me, dude, because I asked you a few questions and felt like you ignored them. Nothing infuriates me more than being ignored and it had to come to (yet again) my raging out to get the answers to the questions I originally asked. I dunno what to say here, but it's certainly not going to be that I'm sorry. Varoth Drac wrote: Interesting comparison with a Gallente Commando. I don't think things are as bad for assaults as you think though. The Commando will need to fit mostly regen to get reasonable armour regen. And whilst they have higher shields, the regen is worse, and they have a larger hitbox, and they have poorer stamina and stamina regen, and they have poorer EWAR stats. Mainly though I feel you are really undervaluing sprint speed. That said, reducing movement speed to near commando speeds is kind of slow, I'll give you that. Haven't checked the numbers, but I'll trust you. So I will further revise my assessment. Movements speed, other than sprint, will suffer a substantial nerf. I still don't think this will likely constitute a major nerf to the assault role overall, considering the fact that sprint speeds will be maintained. I still don't particularly like the idea of messing with sprint speed modifiers though. Thank you for being the only one in here that actually listened. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 192	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:54:00 - [389] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Just something I was playing around with, an alternative idea on quantifying Mobility vs HP. This is just a rough, conceptual project (because this is what sickness looks like) so by no means are the numbers anything you should focus on. More or less showing an idea for a methodology of design. In short instead of comparing just movement speed and HP, you take a look at a composite of Movement Speed, Stamina, and Stamina recharge and then convert all 3 into a single value, and then compare it against HP. The advantage of this is, for example in the case of Logis and Assaults, you can give the Logistics more mobility but lower movement speed due to superior stamina, or vice versa. I present two test case studies that net fairly similar results but do so by buffing different stats. I also understand that the Mobility Index is tricky to come up with since it attempts to assign a cumulative worth of various stats and their weight within that sum. Math and ****. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s-Y9wlM7v8P6KT0xsjhkQqruUPDmJkuXWrTU2mswmMg/edit?usp=sharing Who knows, it may just be gibberish, haven't had much sleep lately and if this keeps up I'm going to start looking like Rattati. The way I chose was to calculate mobility as a "traverse" index, how long does it take to cross X meters, and how far can I get through one sprint and sprint recovery phase. I need to the same thing for shields and shield regen. For commandos, I have looked extensively into this. Here are some stats (with max HP skills): Amarr: Shields: 250 (29.4% total HP) Delays: 7, 8 seconds Rate: 15HP/s Time to full recovery: 25 seconds Caldari Shields: 500 (61.6% total HP) Delays: 6, 8 seconds Rate: 20HP/s Time to full recovery: 33 seconds Gallente Shields: 312 (38.4% total HP) Delays: 7, 10 seconds Rate: 15HP/s Time to full recovery: 31 seconds Minmatar Shields: 412 (53.2% total HP) Delays: 6, 10 seconds Rate: 18HP/s Time to full recovery: 33 seconds Notes: Commandos have really bad base shield stats compared to assaults and/or sentinels, (I seriously considered putting a regulator on my galmando for quite some time). Especially Min/Cal as they they are so low that they aren't really worth augmenting with modules like rechargers and regulators. Hard to justify using your only low on a Caldari for a regulator when it saves you 2 seconds off of your recharge rate, and nearly 40% of your HP is armor. And some suits needing to wait 10 seconds for their shields to start to recharge is high considering that they are 38-53% of their total HP. It means commandos are out of the fight for a rather long time. With commandos getting another slot, it might be easier to make the justifications for these things, but I recommend the following improvements: Ammar/Gal/MIn Copy the shield stats for sentinels. They have the same rates (+2HP/s for min), but lower delay times. Sentinels also have similar ratios of shield hp/total HP, so they should be generally better, but not necessarily overpowered. I definitely notice the delay times on my galmando, especially since my armor regeneration is so high by comparison Caldari Copy the stats of the assault. This encourages fitting a proper shield tank rather than simply stacking 3 (or 4) damage mods, but the Cal sentinel's shield stats seem a bit much for a commando. Recent kills/spawn stats somewhat indicate that proper shield tanks are rather formidable. In addition, I recommend making a scout-like exception and rather than have a 4/1 slot layout, give them a 3/2. It limits damage mod stacking, and allows them to have more options like having a regulator and an armor repairer (38% of their HP is armor)/stamina/speed mod on their suits. Commandos are notably more fun when they feel less cumbersome. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Sleepy Shadow Qualified Scrub 385	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:09:00 - [390] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The vast majority of the playerbase are running Assault at the moment. If we nerf their favorite suits, we might lose some of them, even if it is warranted and even it brings about better balance. IGÇÖm really sorry but this doesnGÇÖt make any sense. GÇ£If we nerf the assaultGÇÖs favourite suitGÇ¥, which currently happens to be the assault suit, GÇ£we might lose some of themGÇ¥. IsnGÇÖt that quite clear indication that youGÇÖre doing it wrong? When assaults were using logis or scouts or heavies did we not ask GÇ£why are they not using the assault suitGÇ¥? And wasnGÇÖt the answer always GÇ£because they are bad in comparisonGÇ¥? When assaults were finally buffed we saw the great migration towards the assault suits. And this migration was perfect. What greater balance can there be than people using role specific suits to execute said roles? There are always tweaks that should be made but that doesnGÇÖt mean that an entire class should suffer. The vast majority of players are assaults and will continue to be assaults regardless of the changes done to suits. There are a lot of assaults because that is the prevailing role in any FPS and using the assault suit for this role should be encouraged. You will never see a situation where we have an equal amount of each role; it is not going to happen. People need to understand that trying to limit the number of assaults is futile. People will use a suit that gives them the best possible outcome in any given match even if that suit was not intended as frontline fighter suit. And you cannot blame people for doing so. I donGÇÖt feel that giving assault better sprint while logis have better strafe is going to cut it. Strafing is a large part of engagements and I have used my Amarr logi enough to know what a pain it is to strafe with those movement speeds. If my ability to be effective in combat with an assault suit is diminished I will move on to a different suit that does offer me combat effectiveness. The proposed changes are simply too drastic. And I must stress that I am not against a logi and commando buff but this doesnGÇÖt have to come at the expense of the assaults. By all means increase their speed, give commandos more slots but please, do not butcher the assaults like this. =ƒÿ¦

Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:12:00 - [391] - Quote Sleepy Shadow wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: The vast majority of the playerbase are running Assault at the moment. If we nerf their favorite suits, we might lose some of them, even if it is warranted and even it brings about better balance. IGÇÖm really sorry but this doesnGÇÖt make any sense. GÇ£If we nerf the assaultGÇÖs favourite suitGÇ¥, which currently happens to be the assault suit, GÇ£we might lose some of themGÇ¥. IsnGÇÖt that quite clear indication that youGÇÖre doing it wrong? When assaults were using logis or scouts or heavies did we not ask GÇ£why are they not using the assault suitGÇ¥? And wasnGÇÖt the answer always GÇ£because they are bad in comparisonGÇ¥? When assaults were finally buffed we saw the great migration towards the assault suits. And this migration was perfect. What greater balance can there be than people using role specific suits to execute said roles? There are always tweaks that should be made but that doesnGÇÖt mean that an entire class should suffer. The vast majority of players are assaults and will continue to be assaults regardless of the changes done to suits. There are a lot of assaults because that is the prevailing role in any FPS and using the assault suit for this role should be encouraged. You will never see a situation where we have an equal amount of each role; it is not going to happen. People need to understand that trying to limit the number of assaults is futile. People will use a suit that gives them the best possible outcome in any given match even if that suit was not intended as frontline fighter suit. And you cannot blame people for doing so. I donGÇÖt feel that giving assault better sprint while logis have better strafe is going to cut it. Strafing is a large part of engagements and I have used my Amarr logi enough to know what a pain it is to strafe with those movement speeds. If my ability to be effective in combat with an assault suit is diminished I will move on to a different suit that does offer me combat effectiveness. The proposed changes are simply too drastic. And I must stress that I am not against a logi and commando buff but this doesnGÇÖt have to come at the expense of the assaults. By all means increase their speed, give commandos more slots but please, do not butcher the assaults like this. ^ Guy pretty much nails it on the head. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:15:00 - [392] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Making Assault sprint faster is a very smart idea. Maybe reducing Logi stamina as well. I too like the idea of making Assault base speed slower than Logi, but giving them a higher sprint modifier. It will let them get to where the action is more quickly, but not strafe around quite so fast when in combat. Also, the Logi speed buff means they might be able to keep up with my Amarr Sentinel when I am running a Kin Cat. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:19:00 - [393] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: When you talk about adjusting movement speeds in this game, I still think the long-term solution is to create a mass stat. Speed, strafe speed, sprint speed, stamina depletion rates and jump height would be derived from formulas based on mass (these values would be calculated in the fitting screen and cached so it's not affecting gameplay performance). You could add racial modifiers in these calculations as well to tweak balance. This more-closely models EVE's mechanics, and would give you the consistency in speed/HP that you're looking for. Putting plates on a scout suit will add a much higher mass (as a percent) than putting those same plates on a sentinel (as a percent). First, if we really want to rationalize movement in this game, the post quoted above is the only rational approach. Don't try and reinvent physics with programming hacks and dozens of pages of dropsuit numerology. Second, we can see that once again we're butting heads with the fact that we never finished defining the Assault role and now it's come back to bite us in the ass. I'd suggest defining that role first and then implementing physics for dropsuits as the most productive way forward. PSN: RationalSpark
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:24:00 - [394] - Quote What are the odds (now that Assault QQ has died down) of buffing the Logi walk speeds a tad? Say .05 across the board? This would give them a small buff to sprint speed as well, with the new 1.4 modifier. They will still be slower than Assaults as well, but be able to get to cover a little easier too. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:25:00 - [395] - Quote Would make a hell of a lot more sense to just switch Logi/Assault HP values instead of their speed values. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:30:00 - [396] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Would make a hell of a lot more sense to just switch Logi/Assault HP values instead of their speed values. And that right there is how you truly get slayer logi's. Please just stop talking Aeon, I dont think you've said something smart or on point in a while. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:34:00 - [397] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Perhaps instead of a speed to HP curve, its speed to mobility curve, where mobility is defined as a function of speed and stamina? You could then vary speed for logistics to maintain the proper mobility by throttling stamina as your independent variable? Why not both! Stamina is why I prefer to run an Amarr Sentinel with 1 Kin Cat, rather than running a Caldari Sentinel. The Amarr may have a lower Base speed, but it is a distance runner (waddleller?) while the Caldari has to stop and catch its breath at every corner. Also the earlier suggestion of making the Gal Assault sprint fast, but have a low stamina makes a lot of sense since Plasma Weapons are short range. The Gal Assault would be able to close the distance with an enemy combatant quickly, but not be able to get from one objective to another quickly. I would suggest doing this with a sprint speed modifier rather than tweaking base speed, so that the Stamina acts as the counter/balance factor. Min - High Base Speed, High Sprint Speed, Average Stamina (Ninjas) Gal - Average Base Speed, High Sprint Speed, Low Stamina (Sprinters) Cal - Average Base Speed, Average Sprint Speed, Average Stamina Amarr - Low Base Speed, Low Sprint Speed, High Stamina (Distance Runners) Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:34:00 - [398] - Quote Sleepy Shadow wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: The vast majority of the playerbase are running Assault at the moment. If we nerf their favorite suits, we might lose some of them, even if it is warranted and even it brings about better balance. IGÇÖm really sorry but this doesnGÇÖt make any sense. It makes perfect sense to me. There are players who feel that imbalance can be justified. So long as imbalance is working in their favor, they are satisfied. When balance is thrust upon them, they get angry. This is most often observed with pilots (not all, but many). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:40:00 - [399] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Would make a hell of a lot more sense to just switch Logi/Assault HP values instead of their speed values. And that right there is how you truly get slayer logi's. Please just stop talking Aeon, I dont think you've said something smart or on point in a while. Okay, so, a Logi with the speed of an Assault and the durability of a Logi.... ... Is somehow less susceptible to being a Slayer Logi... ... than a Logi with the speed of a Logi and the durability of an Assault... So what you're saying is that, a Logi suit with lower EHP and faster movement (comparatively speaking) is less likely to be a slayer than a Logi with higher EHP and -slower- movement (comparatively speaking). When the whole argument is that the best combination of EHP and Speed = winrawr. Consider this for a second. Slayer--------Slayer--------Support--------Slayer--------Slayer Scout--------Assault--------Logi--------Mando--------Sentinel Two slayer roles that are built for speed, Logi in the center playing support, and two slayer roles built for EHP. That seems much more natural and fluid on the transition than... Slayer--------Support--------Slayer--------Slayer--------Slayer Scout----------Logi-----------Assault--------Mando--------Sentinel Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Avallo Kantor 822	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:41:00 - [400] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: castba wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Would it be possible to lower the strafe speed multiplier by any chance? Having more tactical, use cover effectively instead of charge then wiggle wiggle fire fights would be great. Yes, but we actually just increased the strafe penalty on plates, but overall reduction of strafe can also been done, and contemplated by me often. strafing at 60% base movement speed in chrome wasn't a feature too many people cried over. I still dunno why they upped it to 90 in 1.4 I would happily consider it again for the sake of other players, but I'm a MKB twitch fps player by heart and I think skill should be rewarded, and yes, good strafing while aiming is a difficult skill to master. Why not just decrease the strafing base move back down, but then allow a way to increase it back up, for example with red drugs? That way it is still viable to fit a strafing / speed tank, but doing so requires fitting commitment. This way, along with blue pills, there is a selection of speed tanking modules that can allow very nimble skill based fittings. (and of course, make sure they can't stack strafe speed over 100%, because that's just silly) "Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:44:00 - [401] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I have taken things into account from here, and am pretty sure I will reduce assault speed much less, maybe 0.3 instead of 0.5 and also increase stamina and sprint modifier. Put together a [possibly over-simplified] top-end progression: > Google Doc < * Fits the eHP / Speed curve * Incorporates Ripley's sprint multipliers * Minimizes impact on Assault Sprint Speed * Maintains a fixed, intra-class racial speed gap * Satisfies goal of increasing Logi base movement * Satisfies goal of decreasing Assault base movement * Stacks the progression as closely as possible without class overlap Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:50:00 - [402] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Still don't know what to do with CA sidearm or EQ I say give both "deployment" Logi a sidearm for one less Equipment slot. By Deployment I mean they have a bonus for either Uplinks or Hives, which are both deployables. This would give us both a Shield and an Armor Logi with a sidearm. It would also be nice if the Min and Gal Logi, could quick switch between their weapon and their first Equipment slot by tapping R2, since they don't have two weapons to switch between. Then they could put their Rep Tool/Scanner in that slot. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:51:00 - [403] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I have taken things into account from here, and am pretty sure I will reduce assault speed much less, maybe 0.3 instead of 0.5 and also increase stamina and sprint modifier. Put together a [possibly over-simplified] top-end progression: > Google Doc < * Fits the eHP / Speed curve * Incorporates Ripley's sprint multipliers * Minimizes impact on Assault Sprint Speed * Satisfies goal of increasing Logi base movement * Satisfies goal of decreasing Assault base movement * Stacks the progression as closely as possible without class overlap This actually nerfs Logi sprint speed? Por que? Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:55:00 - [404] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: > Google Doc < This actually nerfs Logi sprint speed? Por que? As I understand it, it is a desired parameter to keep Assault sprint speed higher than Logi sprint speed. Let me see if I can tweak the sprint multiplier a 'bit ... Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:58:00 - [405] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: > Google Doc < This actually nerfs Logi sprint speed? Por que? As I understand it, it is a desired parameter to keep Assault sprint speed higher than Logi sprint speed. Let me see if I can tweak the sprint multiplier a 'bit ... Buff the proposed movement by .05 and put the multiplier at 1.4. Still slower sprint than Assault. You could even buff proposed Assault movement by .05 as well? Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:01:00 - [406] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: > Google Doc < This actually nerfs Logi sprint speed? Por que? As I understand it, it is a desired parameter to keep Assault sprint speed higher than Logi sprint speed. Let me see if I can tweak the sprint multiplier a 'bit ... Buff the proposed movement by .05 and put the multiplier at 1.4. Still slower sprint than Assault. You could even buff proposed Assault movement by .05 as well? How does it look now? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 911	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:07:00 - [407] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: > Google Doc < This actually nerfs Logi sprint speed? Por que? As I understand it, it is a desired parameter to keep Assault sprint speed higher than Logi sprint speed. Let me see if I can tweak the sprint multiplier a 'bit ... Buff the proposed movement by .05 and put the multiplier at 1.4. Still slower sprint than Assault. You could even buff proposed Assault movement by .05 as well? How does it look now? How about reducing assault movement by 0.3 rather than 0.5, like Rattati said he was thinking of doing.
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:10:00 - [408] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: How about reducing assault movement by 0.3 rather than 0.5, like Rattati said he was thinking of doing. This, and buffing Logi up by .05, not down by .05? Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 492	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:11:00 - [409] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: HP is the problem here, and I can personally promise that. You see, before the HP buff scouts were being the problem. Do you really believe removing an HP buff that was given due to Assaults being underpowered won't swing the balance in the direction of scouts too hard? Considering we've seen what happens without that HP buff? ....One does not have to nerf the assaults back to uselessness to remove the 100% HP buff they were given...just reduce HP to a point, and then see what happens. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:12:00 - [410] - Quote So what's the bridge going to be between the Scout and the Assault after this? What if I want a suit that has mobility without as much of an EHP hit of a Scout and EHP without the mobility hit of the Assault? What am I supposed to run as the bridge point between the two..? Slayer-Logi? EDIT: Because if I have to, that's what I'm going to do. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)

Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 492	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:17:00 - [411] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: After digging around all day in stamina and regen, I can safely conclude that with regard to mobility, the Minmatar faction has, due to I believe a fundamental misconception, been double dipping in the speed jar. The comparisons were done on both "distance covered until stamina pool is fully recharged" and "average speed while covering a fixed distance". The intent with the design was to allow minmatar to travel approximately 5% faster, and Amarr approx 5% slower. Whereas, minmatar actually travels 10% faster and 15% faster than Amarr. Now, I don't want to punish them, but bring the rest up. For example, this means that Caldari Assault will now have 35 stam regen instead of 20, and Amarr 45, while Minmatar stays at 50. With the reduction of normal speed, and differentation through sprinting, I hope we have a really good model as a foundation for speed. The rules of thumb as applied to the Medium class now: Mobility (stamina pool and recovery) CA/GA = normal Amarr= 5% lower Minmatar = 5% higher Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x eHP Basic = normal Logistics = lower Assault = higher Speed Basic = normal Logistics = higher Assault = lower Shield Regen on hold While there is nothing gamebreaking about this increase, it will result in more fluidity across the spectrum and be a little more enjoyable. This will have a cascading effect, as for example Light Basics are very out of shape in regard to most of these things. The other basics are more in line. Nobody in this game likes the minmitar We have the worst regen, worst HP, and now our one advantage is getting close to nullified. This makes me very sad. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:17:00 - [412] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: > Google Doc < How about reducing assault movement by 0.3 rather than 0.5, like Rattati said he was thinking of doing. Sheet added! Instances of overlap highlighted. The MN Assault is still a 'bit too fast ... ends up with higher sprint than present. Could dial back sprint from 1.5, but then GA/CA/AM Assault sprint speed would take a hit. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:18:00 - [413] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: How about reducing assault movement by 0.3 rather than 0.5, like Rattati said he was thinking of doing. This, and buffing Logi up by .05, not down by .05? Wouldn't we still have instances of overlap? Please clarify ... Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 911	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:21:00 - [414] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: So what's the bridge going to be between the Scout and the Assault after this? What if I want a suit that has mobility without as much of an EHP hit of a Scout and EHP without the mobility hit of the Assault? What am I supposed to run as the bridge point between the two..? Slayer-Logi? EDIT: Because if I have to, that's what I'm going to do. Stick kincats and cardiac regs on you assault, just like now. You'd have to live with lower strafe speed. What would be awesome, would be if Kincats also increase your movement speed, rather than just sprint speed.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:24:00 - [415] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: So what's the bridge going to be between the Scout and the Assault after this? What if I want a suit that has mobility without as much of an EHP hit of a Scout and EHP without the mobility hit of the Assault? What am I supposed to run as the bridge point between the two..? Slayer-Logi? EDIT: Because if I have to, that's what I'm going to do. Stick kincats and cardiac regs on you assault, just like now. You'd have to live with lower strafe speed. What would be awesome, would be if Kincats also increase your movement speed, rather than just sprint speed. -I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:26:00 - [416] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. Wouldn't this require a slot count reduction? * Also, Assault base movement is only 5% to 8% removed from Scout base movement. Tough to build a speed / hp curve around such a tight spread. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:27:00 - [417] - Quote Very happy to hear Rattati is considering a smaller reduction in assault speed. MY primary concern was that assaults getting such a big nerf and logi/commandos getting a big buff would be about as effective as 1.7 was at balancing tanks. I think Rattati should even consider 0.2 m/s reduction and run metrics, but overall I wouldn't cry over 0.3 m/s reduction. As far as having all suits be the same, I am against that. If all weapons cost the same, it would be one thing, but why should Amarr Assault have the same CPU/PG as Minmatar Assault when the scrambler costs over twice the fitting that the combat rifle does? I think we need to perhaps make a baseline assault fitting and adjust the races from there. For example, let's say base assault fitting is X CPU and Y PG Amarr Assault would have -5% X and +10% Y Caldari Assault would have +10% X and -5% Y etc. This allows for different racial weapon fitting costs, different tanking/preferred module fitting costs, and keeps with the unique flavor of New Eden. Homogenizing fitting means homogenizing fits to all the the same. Or did I misinterpret the Ratman? Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Sleepy Shadow Qualified Scrub 385	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:33:00 - [418] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Sleepy Shadow wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: The vast majority of the playerbase are running Assault at the moment. If we nerf their favorite suits, we might lose some of them, even if it is warranted and even it brings about better balance. IGÇÖm really sorry but this doesnGÇÖt make any sense. It makes perfect sense to me. There are players who feel that imbalance can be justified. So long as imbalance is working in their favor, they are satisfied. When balance is thrust upon them, they get angry. This is most often observed with pilots (not all, but many). I have a feeling you didnGÇÖt really read my post but oh well. So tell me what, exactly, is imbalanced when assaults are using the assault suit? I donGÇÖt think any assault here has objected to a buff to logis and commandos, or scouts and heavies either for that matter. Logi should be as fast as the assault, it has no reason whatsoever to be faster, so why not just buff the logi? Why do you need to nerf the assaults? Why not try a logi buff and then tweak as necessary. You want assaults using the assault suit, you need to make it viable so that all other suits can shine in their respective fields. But by all means nerf the assault, I have enough suits to make my role viable. Good luck Aeon, I think youGÇÖre on your own. =ƒÿ¦
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 912	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:34:00 - [419] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: > Google Doc < How about reducing assault movement by 0.3 rather than 0.5, like Rattati said he was thinking of doing. Sheet added! Instances of overlap highlighted. The MN Assault is still a 'bit too fast ... ends up with higher sprint than present. Could dial back sprint from 1.5, but then GA/CA/AM Assault sprint speed would take a hit. Couple of issues. Why do all your sprint speeds have an extra 5% multiplier? I interpreted Rattati's latest comment to suggest +0.5 logi speed, - 3% assaults speed, not +/- 3%. Looking at the OP, Min assault speeds should be an equal amount higher than Amarr speeds are lower. So 4.9 rather than 5.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:36:00 - [420] - Quote Sleepy Shadow wrote: [Why do you need to nerf the assaults? A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:38:00 - [421] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Why do all your sprint speeds have an extra 5% multiplier? I interpreted Rattati's latest comment to suggest +0.5 logi speed, - 0.3 assaults speed, not +/- 0.3. Looking at the OP, Min assault speeds should be an equal amount higher than Amarr speeds are lower. So 4.9 rather than 5. There's a 1% per level passive upgrade to sprint speed afford by the Biotics skill (or perhaps the KinCat skill ... it's been awhile don't recall offhand). I'll add a +0.5 Logi, -0.3 assault sheet. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 912	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:40:00 - [422] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Why do all your sprint speeds have an extra 5% multiplier? I interpreted Rattati's latest comment to suggest +0.5 logi speed, - 0.3 assaults speed, not +/- 0.3. Looking at the OP, Min assault speeds should be an equal amount higher than Amarr speeds are lower. So 4.9 rather than 5. There's a 1% per level passive upgrade to sprint speed afford by the Biotics skill (or perhaps the KinCat skill ... it's been awhile don't recall offhand). I'll add a +0.5 Logi, -0.3 assault sheet. Ah! Forgot about that. Please add the Min assault speed difference correction from the OP as well
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:40:00 - [423] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: So what's the bridge going to be between the Scout and the Assault after this? What if I want a suit that has mobility without as much of an EHP hit of a Scout and EHP without the mobility hit of the Assault? What am I supposed to run as the bridge point between the two..? Slayer-Logi? EDIT: Because if I have to, that's what I'm going to do. Provided that logi uses all of it's (soon to be required) equipment slots, then yes I think that's where things will land based on the current proposed changes we're seeing. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:44:00 - [424] - Quote Gal Assault (current) x4 Complex Reactive Plates x1 Complex Cardiac Regulator x3 Myrofibril x1 Duvolle Assault Rifle x1 Boundless Breach SMG x1 Core Locus Grenade x1 CreoDron Active Scanner 194s 608a (802 EHP) 4.8m/s 16.5hp/s repair Gal Slayer Logi 2 x4 Complex Reactive Plates x1 Complex Ferroscale Plate x3 Myrofibril x1 Duvolle Assault Rifle x1 Core Locus Grenade x1 CreoDron Active Scanner x1 Wiyrkomi Triage Hive x1 K-2 Nanohive 112s (-82) 571a (-37) (683 EHP)(-119) 4.80m/s 17hp/s (+70hp/s) Same movement speed Slightly less base stamina (gonna miss my cardiac regulator but oh well) Similar EHP (I don't rely on shields anyhow) No sidearm Much more equipment/utility to use --> Heightened EWAR from Active Scanner --> Greater regen/repair from Triage hives --> Spare ammo from K-2 hives Thanks guys, I actually got what I wanted here :3 Can't wait for these changes, actually. I actually get a -LOT- of benefit out of the equipment here. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:44:00 - [425] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Why do all your sprint speeds have an extra 5% multiplier? I interpreted Rattati's latest comment to suggest +0.5 logi speed, - 0.3 assaults speed, not +/- 0.3. Looking at the OP, Min assault speeds should be an equal amount higher than Amarr speeds are lower. So 4.9 rather than 5. There's a 1% per level passive upgrade to sprint speed afford by the Biotics skill (or perhaps the KinCat skill ... it's been awhile don't recall offhand). I'll add a +0.5 Logi, -0.3 assault sheet. Ah! Forgot about that. Please add the Min assault speed difference correction from the OP as well At +0.5 Logi, the MN Logi pushes well into Scout movement territory. In my opinion, we need to be careful with high base movements ... this MN Logi would be a better at wiggle weaving than today's MN Assault. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 912	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:45:00 - [426] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Why do all your sprint speeds have an extra 5% multiplier? I interpreted Rattati's latest comment to suggest +0.5 logi speed, - 0.3 assaults speed, not +/- 0.3. Looking at the OP, Min assault speeds should be an equal amount higher than Amarr speeds are lower. So 4.9 rather than 5. There's a 1% per level passive upgrade to sprint speed afford by the Biotics skill (or perhaps the KinCat skill ... it's been awhile don't recall offhand). I'll add a +0.5 Logi, -0.3 assault sheet. I think I'm being an idiot! The OP has a logi speed buff of about 0.3 not 0.5. So you were right the first time. Sorry I doubted the spreadsheeting!
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 913	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:56:00 - [427] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Assault vs slayer logi You will have to replace that ferroscale plate on the logi for a cardiac regulator for a fair comparison. With the proposed changes you could fit a complex plate on the logi instead of a reactive and have similar movement speeds. The assault will still have more hp and stamina, and a sidearm. The logi will have lots of nice equipment. The assault will have much better sprint speed. I still think you'd be better off slaying in the assault.
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:00:00 - [428] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Why do all your sprint speeds have an extra 5% multiplier? I interpreted Rattati's latest comment to suggest +0.5 logi speed, - 0.3 assaults speed, not +/- 0.3. Looking at the OP, Min assault speeds should be an equal amount higher than Amarr speeds are lower. So 4.9 rather than 5. There's a 1% per level passive upgrade to sprint speed afford by the Biotics skill (or perhaps the KinCat skill ... it's been awhile don't recall offhand). I'll add a +0.5 Logi, -0.3 assault sheet. Ah! Forgot about that. Please add the Min assault speed difference correction from the OP as well At +0.5 Logi, the MN Logi pushes well into Scout movement territory. In my opinion, we need to be careful with high base movements ... this MN Logi would be better at wiggle weaving than today's MN Assault. Yes, but please don't forget that the Min Logi starts with less HP than the Amarr Scout. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:02:00 - [429] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Assault vs slayer logi You will have to replace that ferroscale plate on the logi for a cardiac regulator for a fair comparison. With the proposed changes you could fit a complex plate on the logi instead of a reactive and have similar movement speeds. The assault will still have more hp and stamina, and a sidearm. The logi will have lots of nice equipment. The assault will have much better sprint speed. I still think you'd be better off slaying in the assault. Lol, not really. Better EWAR is situational awareness, much better repair out of the Wiyrkomi Triage without having to worry about ammo/EWAR, better movement speed... Sprint is nice getting into the fight but it doesn't help you once you're having to shoot back. And if it really gets that bad I'll just switch out for a Kin-Cat. Because I can recover Sprint Speed, but I can't recover movement speed =P Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Sleepy Shadow Qualified Scrub 385	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:02:00 - [430] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Sleepy Shadow wrote: [Why do you need to nerf the assaults? A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies. You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done. I donGÇÖt care about your speed curve, I care about the roles in this game and their interaction with each other. Gimping the assault just so it fits on your pretty graph is not a good enough reason to nerf it. =ƒÿ¦

Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:04:00 - [431] - Quote Sleepy Shadow wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Sleepy Shadow wrote: [Why do you need to nerf the assaults? A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies. You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done. He's startlingly good at that, isn't he? Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:05:00 - [432] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Why do all your sprint speeds have an extra 5% multiplier? I interpreted Rattati's latest comment to suggest +0.5 logi speed, - 0.3 assaults speed, not +/- 0.3. Looking at the OP, Min assault speeds should be an equal amount higher than Amarr speeds are lower. So 4.9 rather than 5. There's a 1% per level passive upgrade to sprint speed afford by the Biotics skill (or perhaps the KinCat skill ... it's been awhile don't recall offhand). I'll add a +0.5 Logi, -0.3 assault sheet. I think I'm being an idiot! The OP has a logi speed buff of about 0.3 not 0.5. So you were right the first time. Sorry I doubted the spreadsheeting! Added a sheet with Rattati's Graph values for easier side-by-side comparison. > Google Doc < Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:05:00 - [433] - Quote I marvel at the now 20 pages of theorycraft hair-pulling over "slayer-logis" when the balancer is the cpu/pg reduction and eq fitting element that finally appears on page 17. I think Pokey mentions it on page 4 or 5, but still. Crisis Averted, people. SlayerLogis aren't coming back like you think, never were. Question about that set of figures that does finally appear on page 17, are those cpu/pg values proposed the final values? Pre-skills values? And 10% fitting on eq, that is also in addition to existing logi bonuses, correct? Are eq load costs going to be modified at all? Are those eq bonuses going to be flat or racially varied? I've kept up on the logistics/support thread and recognize much of this stemming from there so definitley see the progress but the last 20 pages is resteering us into overall wash territory at risk of nerfs. Theres obviously several irons in the fire at once here, what with this happening concurrently with the powercore proposal moving forward. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:07:00 - [434] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Why do all your sprint speeds have an extra 5% multiplier? I interpreted Rattati's latest comment to suggest +0.5 logi speed, - 0.3 assaults speed, not +/- 0.3. Looking at the OP, Min assault speeds should be an equal amount higher than Amarr speeds are lower. So 4.9 rather than 5. There's a 1% per level passive upgrade to sprint speed afford by the Biotics skill (or perhaps the KinCat skill ... it's been awhile don't recall offhand). I'll add a +0.5 Logi, -0.3 assault sheet. Ah! Forgot about that. Please add the Min assault speed difference correction from the OP as well At +0.5 Logi, the MN Logi pushes well into Scout movement territory. In my opinion, we need to be careful with high base movements ... this MN Logi would be better at wiggle weaving than today's MN Assault. Also, what does a straight swap of current movement speeds between Logis and Assaults, plus using the 1.55 mod for Assaults, and 1.4 for Logis? Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 917	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:14:00 - [435] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Why do all your sprint speeds have an extra 5% multiplier? I interpreted Rattati's latest comment to suggest +0.5 logi speed, - 0.3 assaults speed, not +/- 0.3. Looking at the OP, Min assault speeds should be an equal amount higher than Amarr speeds are lower. So 4.9 rather than 5. There's a 1% per level passive upgrade to sprint speed afford by the Biotics skill (or perhaps the KinCat skill ... it's been awhile don't recall offhand). I'll add a +0.5 Logi, -0.3 assault sheet. I think I'm being an idiot! The OP has a logi speed buff of about 0.3 not 0.5. So you were right the first time. Sorry I doubted the spreadsheeting! Added a sheet with Rattati's Graph values for easier side-by-side comparison. > Google Doc < Does it really matter if there's a bit of speed overlap? It's not an issue for me really, other factors should balance it. So, my understanding of where we are now, is the logi stats from the original graph, with a 1.3 sprint multiplier, and the assault stats from the +/- 0.3 tab, but with a Min assault base speed of 4.9.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:14:00 - [436] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Assault vs slayer logi You will have to replace that ferroscale plate on the logi for a cardiac regulator for a fair comparison. With the proposed changes you could fit a complex plate on the logi instead of a reactive and have similar movement speeds. The assault will still have more hp and stamina, and a sidearm. The logi will have lots of nice equipment. The assault will have much better sprint speed. I still think you'd be better off slaying in the assault. It's outside the scope of this proposal but the assault should also have meaningful racial bonuses to assaulting (i.e. to it's dps levels). The assault role is defined by it's slayer ability, that hinges on weapon slots, the logistics role hinges on it's support ability which is dependent on equipment slots. Both require utility slots to stay alive and functional. The frequent misconception is that there's an issue when the logi can survive in combat/get from place to place, as if that base utility hampers the assault role. It is not the logi being viable that is an issue, it is the assault having lack luster role definition/supporting mechanics. Give effective racial skills that provide the assault with lethality and they'll perform their role quite nicely, rather than relying on other roles/suits to be gimped just so they can function (as is currently the case). CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:17:00 - [437] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Also, what does a straight swap of current movement speeds between Logis and Assaults, plus using the 1.55 mod for Assaults, and 1.4 for Logis? Added. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Sleepy Shadow Qualified Scrub 385	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:20:00 - [438] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Sleepy Shadow wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Sleepy Shadow wrote: [Why do you need to nerf the assaults? A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies. You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done. He's startlingly good at that, isn't he? Almost freakishly soGÇª =ƒÿ¦
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:21:00 - [439] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: It's outside the scope of this proposal but the assault should also have meaningful racial bonuses to assaulting (i.e. to it's dps levels). What you mean like Commandos? EDIT: Yet again we run into an issue where Assaults have no describable role that isn't over-shadowed by something else and in an effort to fix something else we put them on the back burner, promising fixes and changes later on... Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:27:00 - [440] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: It's outside the scope of this proposal but the assault should also have meaningful racial bonuses to assaulting (i.e. to it's dps levels). What you mean like Commandos? Depends on what you mean by "like Commandos" specifically but yes, the Commando also has a role largely/currently defined by slayer ability. This is actually a long standing issue derived from earlier design choices because the precepts of those two roles overlap so heavily. That unfortunate "legacy quandary" aside, as a general method I'd say yes, assaults should have something like commandos in the sense of racial bonuses that give them better than standard dps output with their racial weapons. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

Cyrus Grevare WarRavens 470	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:30:00 - [441] - Quote Hi Folks, On the process of adding temporary items to protofits.com, basically the base dropsuits going through CCP Rattati's rebalancing efforts starting with logistics. Doing them one at a time for those interested and avid users of the site. Since some skills need changing I'm temporarily modifying the skills too (as in 10% PG/CPU reduction for eq. for logistics instead of 5%, etc) Regards www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:31:00 - [442] - Quote Alright, I see a lot of Bullshit backwards logic in here and I'm about to set this straight because a lot of you guy's have your heads so buried in spreadsheets that you need a good slap across the face once in a while to wake you the hell up. First off, speed is the absolute most essential component of gunplay in this game. It allows one to dodge bullets, find cover and out maneuver the enemy. I have yet to see a single good reason why it is that assault speed is being stripped down while everything around it is being buffed. The assault suit is popular because it most closely reflects the playstyle of many other FPS games and actually works now. It's a suit that requires versatility and durability. I see no reason not to buff the other suits, but double nerfing assault suits by taking their speed and buffing the suits closest to their performance parameters is mindbogglingly shortsighted. Secondly, these changes put assault suits movement speed down to the speed of a commando (except for one that barely out paces them). So the only thing that the assault has over the commando now would be.... Hitbox and grenade slot? And slightly better regen stats? Commandos are slow because their abilities are hugely strong. Assault abilities suck by comparison, which is why they have small bonuses over them in stats with a decent amount more speed. With assaults getting a speed cut you are essential pushing people to be slayer scouts, bricked logis and speed tanked commandoes. All of which is to fill the void of the assault class you just obliterated. People will still want to play the exact same role, but they will need to pick a different suit for it. What is the point in that? Why would that be necessary? How does that benefit the game in the slightest? Next, what's with this idea that these changes will 'fix the imbalance of suits'? I'm sorry, but this is totally failed logic. You want slayers to run a slayer suit. That's the assault suit. What you're saying is 'if we nerfs the slayer suit and buff the others, people will want to try other roles'. What you are doing however is forcing slayers to look into ways to adapt other suits to fill the void left by the nerfs on the slayer suit. People aren't going to change their preferred way of playing the game just because you nerf their suit. A slayer isn't going to say 'oh, you nerfs mah slayer suits, I mights justs plays a medic now'. He or she is simply going to look for the next best way to play the game the way they wish to play. Which means using other suits for the same role, which makes this argument utterly ridiculous. You are trying to change how people want to play, but all your doing is forcing people to go out of their way to find other ways to do it. And as for this Adipem Nothi wrote: A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies. That curve is not going to work right just because it makes a pretty pattern on a chart and there are a lot more factors involved with it that hp and speed. Logi suits definitely need a buff, hell I wouldn't have issues with them having close to the same health AND speed as assaults, but the reason they need to be CLOSE and not HIGHER is that they have the edge on scanning, equipment and hacking speeds. They are a more specialized role and aren't supposed to have the combat efficacy of an assault, however by having more speed and the assault having less you pretty much give them an even combat role. You force assaults to rely on bricking since they no longer have the speed to strafe effectively (without a kb/m anyway) and remove gungame almost entirely from their role. What is the point in that? The boat left and I wasn't on the ******* boat, can someone explain the logic of that to me please? You (Ratatti) complain about assaults brick tanking, then you force them into a situation where their only real option is to brick tank? Really? REALLY? And that makes sense to you? nuclearfacepalm In short, speed > eHp and giving logi suits this much more speed than assaults gives them at least as much combat efficacy as the freshly nerfed assault suits while doing nothing to fix the power balance shift for scouts who's speed+hitbox+cloaks+scans+damps+double equipment+regen rates+etc+etc+etc will also be filling the power vacuum left behind by the slayer suit no longer doing it's job. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:33:00 - [443] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: It's outside the scope of this proposal but the assault should also have meaningful racial bonuses to assaulting (i.e. to it's dps levels). What you mean like Commandos? Depends on what you mean by "like Commandos" specifically but yes, the Commando also has a role largely/currently defined by slayer ability. This is actually a long standing issue derived from earlier design choices because the precepts of those two roles overlap so heavily. That unfortunate "legacy quandary" aside, as a general method I'd say yes, assaults should have something like commandos in the sense of racial bonuses that give them better than standard dps output with their racial weapons. But as I said before, adding buffer to Assaults with the new movement speed penalties effectively just makes them Commandos with a sidearm and grenade instead of two light weapons. I think these guys are putting way too much faith on the Sprint Speed thing because it's not much of a change to differentiate Assaults from Commandos. What'll wind up happening is what has always happened: High Mobility suit to get to where we're going (Scout or Minmatar Assault) Switch to something better once we get there (Assault/Sentinel, or in this case, Commando/Sentinel) The only way you're ever going to differentiate those two slayer roles is by orienting them to different things, something the community isn't fond off because DPS oriented Assaults are viewed in a negative light and propositions to change up Commandos (higher magazine count/longer range/etc for suppression) have been shot down repeatedly. Having players decide "That one suit that's good at killing things" and "that other suit that's good at killing things but slower and a little more durable" doesn't give variety to the roles. We're still killing things, it's just how much frustration you're willing to put up with on either spectrum (lower EHP or lower mobility). Cross Atu wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: EDIT: Yet again we run into an issue where Assaults have no describable role that isn't over-shadowed by something else and in an effort to fix something else we put them on the back burner, promising fixes and changes later on... Lack of consistent conceptual vision has been an issue for Dust starting in the early days and is a continued bane no question. It is the manifold problems caused by that very thing that makes me so adamantly in support of all CCP Rattati's initiatives to apply consistent methods game wide, such as his work in the OP. Right now things are bad in a number of ways and far too much time is spent on the forums with players bickering amongst ourselves about "who is it going to be bad for, who's turn is it to have a viable role" I'm more than tired of that back and forth and the lack of balance it is predicated upon. As such I fully support Rattati in all efforts to apply solid consistent foundations, even when such applications have undesirable short term effects, because without a long term game wide method to provide context progress is unlikely and balance will remain fleeting and nebulous. And that's fine, I agree, I'm tired of the "whos turn is it" but I've been waiting for that balance for three years now. I'm frustrated, I'm tired, and I don't want to have to spend months on end (again) waiting to get out of the "who it's bad for" rut. It's all well and good that you fully support his efforts, I would love to as well but I'm the one who's going to have to handle up on the undesirable short term effects when I was -JUST NOW- starting to feel that my role was viable through Myros. Think about who's going to be taking the hits here. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:33:00 - [444] - Quote Cyrus Grevare wrote: Hi Folks, On the process of adding temporary items to protofits.com, basically the base dropsuits going through CCP Rattati's rebalancing efforts starting with logistics. Doing them one at a time for those interested and avid users of the site. Since some skills need changing I'm temporarily modifying the skills too (as in 10% PG/CPU reduction for eq. for logistics instead of 5%, etc) Regards ^This man, give him all your likes CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:34:00 - [445] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Also, what does a straight swap of current movement speeds between Logis and Assaults, plus using the 1.55 mod for Assaults, and 1.4 for Logis? Added. Interesting... The sweet spot may be 1.35 for Logis, and 1.5 for Assaults, keeping the movement speed swap. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 194	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:44:00 - [446] - Quote Mini-rant here: Nobody seems to like commandos, but givw the assault the commando's bonuses and weapon selection, and people seem all ln board. 2. This assault pity about how the class with the highest kills/spawn is going to be hit so hard by this small adjustment because their assault wont be the second fastest, and have more hp than a commando, hits similarly hard as a commando, and gets a bonus to weapon performance (cal is a notable exception), and has more slots than most suits in the game so you can make it do whatever you want is so hard. Seriously, the suit is not so bad if yoi are all using it, and performing well with it. 3. all this talk of compact nanohives on their new "slayer-logi" proposal fits, and nobody wants to fit a nanite injector? Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 475	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:50:00 - [447] - Quote a faster cal logi is still going to suck more than cal assault due to low shield regen and high delay.. 3 more equipment slots wont' make it any more of a slayer.. brick tank and stand on triage hives, might as well do the same with cal assault since it has much faster shield regen. faster min logi breaks hit detection.. another fotm, start skilling today. faster gal logi improves upon gal assault builds.. probably reason for buff, more fun for armor users, more triage hives, scans and nade spam. faster amar logi is good for getting those links down.. fine by me I really see no reason to buff logi speed.... there are much greater issues with the game that should be dealt with rather than how fast a logi runs and whether amar should lose it's sidearm. Caldari will still be worst logi regardless of changes.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:51:00 - [448] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Also, what does a straight swap of current movement speeds between Logis and Assaults, plus using the 1.55 mod for Assaults, and 1.4 for Logis? Added. Interesting... The sweet spot may be 1.35 for Logis, and 1.5 for Assaults, keeping the movement speed swap. Tweaked the sheet: Google Doc Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:52:00 - [449] - Quote Cyrus Grevare wrote: On the process of adding temporary items to protofits.com ... \o/ Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:59:00 - [450] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: {Forum says I have too many quotes, content cut to allow posting} Yep, as I sated prior there's an issue when it comes to the overlap between Commandos and Assault as far as their base precept and role. Frankly in an FPS there is a fundamental issue with any suit being "the slayer suit", you cannot have a single role be "the one that's good at killing" in a game that is largely based around killing. Just like you cannot have one role be "the one with good survival" (i.e. higher than average speed vs eHP ratio) in an fps style environment. When defining a foundational method we specifically cannot allow "who's taking the hits" to define the application of the method. The method - whatever that may be - must be considered and stand or fall on it's own merits. If it stands it must be applied, as stated, game wide. If any of these things fail to transpire we are once again reverted to the prior aimlessness of design that has plagued Dust for much (if not most) of his history starting in closed beta. If you, or anyone, has a problem with the method or sees flaws within the method then by all means please bring them forward. I don't care if it's this method that is being commented on or another, feedback on the subject is something I firmly support because good methods are important. What cannot be abided is allowing bias towards one role, play style, or any form of sub-group to distorted or redefine base level game wide methodology. To allow that is by definition to engender imbalance as the very context for balance ceases to be an actual game wide mechanic. I totally get that it's frustrating to be three years deep and still waiting for balance, I'm just as frustrated by that as anyone (maybe more than some because it drives my OCD crazy) but that is exactly why we need baseline methods and sooner rather than later regardless of the short term sting of ripping the bandaid off. Because without those foundations to build upon, we won't just be waiting for another three years to see balance in Dust, we'll be waiting all the way until the servers shut down no matter how long the game runs. In short, frustrated or not, having a cohesive game design that allows for fundamental balance to finally replace the back and forth we've dealt with for years trumps any particular current effects those changes have on you, me, or any specific sub-facet of the game. 0.02 ISK CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:59:00 - [451] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: -I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. How can anyone say this with the massive hit detection issues currently in game ?! Know what cannot be known.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:03:00 - [452] - Quote CeeJ Mantis wrote: Mini-rant here: Nobody seems to like commandos, but givw the assault the commando's bonuses and weapon selection, and people seem all ln board. 2. This assault pity about how the class with the highest kills/spawn is going to be hit so hard by this small adjustment because their assault wont be the second fastest, and have more hp than a commando, hits similarly hard as a commando, and gets a bonus to weapon performance (cal is a notable exception), and has more slots than most suits in the game so you can make it do whatever you want is so hard. Seriously, the suit is not so bad if yoi are all using it, and performing well with it. 3. all this talk of compact nanohives on their new "slayer-logi" proposal fits, and nobody wants to fit a nanite injector? In reverse order. The nanite injector is more pg/cpu, the slayer fit focuses on maximizing survivability and self sufficiency. They aren't the second fastest suit in the game when wearing enough eHp to outdo the commando eHp, and likewise don't top commando eHp when they are wearing little enough eHp to be the second fastest suit in the game. It's called versatility, and is (or was) what the suit was all about which is the reason for the slot layout as well. And as for your first point... I don't know whether to laugh or give you a deadeyed stare. Assault players want to be effective at their role, slaying. we don't want to steal the commandos abilities, we want to be effective at the role we picked up the suits for to begin with. If I wanted to be a medic, I'd be a logi. If I wanted to play point defense, I'd be a heavy. If I wanted to be a shock trooper I'd be a commando. If I wanted to be the stealthy hacker/assassin, I'd be a scout. I play assault because I enjoy running and gunning, and half of that playstyle is ******* RUNNING. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:03:00 - [453] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: In short, frustrated or not, having a cohesive game design that allows for fundamental balance to finally replace the back and forth we've dealt with for years trumps any particular current effects those changes have on you, me, or any specific sub-facet of the game. 0.02 ISK Easy to say. Harder to live with. Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: -I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. How can anyone say this with the massive hit detection issues currently in game ?! Again. Mobility is king in CQC. All the EHP in the world won't matter if they can hit you but you can't hit them. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:06:00 - [454] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Assault vs slayer logi You will have to replace that ferroscale plate on the logi for a cardiac regulator for a fair comparison. With the proposed changes you could fit a complex plate on the logi instead of a reactive and have similar movement speeds. The assault will still have more hp and stamina, and a sidearm. The logi will have lots of nice equipment. The assault will have much better sprint speed. I still think you'd be better off slaying in the assault. It's outside the scope of this proposal but the assault should also have meaningful racial bonuses to assaulting (i.e. to it's dps levels). The assault role is defined by it's slayer ability, that hinges on weapon slots, the logistics role hinges on it's support ability which is dependent on equipment slots. Both require utility slots to stay alive and functional. The frequent misconception is that there's an issue when the logi can survive in combat/get from place to place, as if that base utility hampers the assault role. It is not the logi being viable that is an issue, it is the assault having lack luster role definition/supporting mechanics. Give effective racial skills that provide the assault with lethality and they'll perform their role quite nicely, rather than relying on other roles/suits to be gimped just so they can function (as is currently the case). I am of the mind that logis need a buff, but assaults should not get a nerf. Now if Rattati says something like "We're nerfing assaults now, but we'll be buffing them further on through role bonuses, etc." I'd feel better. But Assaults were useless for ages (anyone remember when we had shield recharge on the Gallente Assault?) and in fact Rattati himself specifically gave them the extra health because he wanted slayers to migrate to the assault suit. Now that they have, they are getting a speed nerf? Buff the logi, leave assaults alone (ideal) or a smaller nerf like 0.2-0.3 m/s. Nerfing one thing while buffing the other led to 1.7 tanks, and I don't want to see that happen again. ESPECIALLY since Rattati said he wants this to be the last balance pass for a long while. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:14:00 - [455] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: A simulation of that in DUST would be like giving Gallente same or better sprint speed than Minmatar, but nerfing the stamina so it can only be used in short bursts. Logged on the Big Board Yeah I agree with cat merc. The gallente filosophy is close range get rekt brawlers in eve online. No ship has higher dps than gallente with short burts of incredible speed to close the distance. Minny in eve atr kiters. They tend to keep their distance and control the battle via speed.... Gallente need a much faster speed than minmitar but about 1/3 their stamina so even with a proto cardiac they will not reach minmatar stamina levels and would need 2. More or less with minny you need them to have less speed than gallente but more stamina meaning they can cover more distance than any race at a faster pace. Minnys are the 400 meter runners, gallente are 100meter sprinters and caldari are the 1,400 meter runners and amarr are the marathon runners (I HATE HOW SLOW MY ROKH, RAVEN AND GOLEM ARE[I LoVE MY GOLEM]). I think this gives you an idea of how to go with it. For easy digestion: Gallente = 100 meter sprint. Stamina constraint dont permit it to go further. Huge burts of speed but not maintainable Minmitar = 400 meter dash. Gets everywhere faster than any race due to sprint speed being second highest but stamina recharge being the highest of all. Caldari = 1,400 meter jog-ish. Stamina permits it to stay at pace with minmitar but ultimately is surpased by minmatar due to stamina recharge and max speed. May feel like its covering more distance but the stamina recharge of minmatar makes it dash more times than the caldari can run Amarr = Marathon runners. Goes from point to point without stopping but not particularly quickly Must be out paced by minny and caldari but not gallente which are sprinters. Has the most stamina. Plasma Cannon Advocate
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:15:00 - [456] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Also, what does a straight swap of current movement speeds between Logis and Assaults, plus using the 1.55 mod for Assaults, and 1.4 for Logis? Added. Interesting... The sweet spot may be 1.35 for Logis, and 1.5 for Assaults, keeping the movement speed swap. Tweaked the sheet: Google Doc Tweak Min Assault to 4.95 base and I think you have a bingo. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:19:00 - [457] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Also, what does a straight swap of current movement speeds between Logis and Assaults, plus using the 1.55 mod for Assaults, and 1.4 for Logis? Added. Interesting... The sweet spot may be 1.35 for Logis, and 1.5 for Assaults, keeping the movement speed swap. Tweaked the sheet: Google Doc Tweak Min Assault to 4.95 base and I think you have a bingo. Looks pretty good. Don't like that the MN Assault is faster than the AM Scout, but it is an improvement upon the present. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 921	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:19:00 - [458] - Quote Pretty much all suit's primary role is killing, logis are the main exception. It's how they do it that differentiates them. I always felt that commandos slay by being slow, tough and powerful. Assaults slay by being fast. Scouts slay by being fast and stealthy, but weak defensively. So perhaps it would be best to get assaults into line with the speed / hp tradeoff, by reducing assault hp rather than speed, like Aeon suggests. Maybe even (shock/horror) a compromise between hp and speed nerfs? The trouble is, too little hp encourages brick tanking, as it makes hp mods proportionally more effective. Too little speed also encourages brick tanking, as it makes speed mods and regen less effective. The current state of assaults is great for varied module use. Should this be a problem, non-hp mods could be buffed. In response to concerns about nerfing assaults. It's not just that they are more common. That is ok and probably to be expected. It's that they are not only more common, but more effective too. I don't think theres much in it though. I'd hate to see them overnerfed.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:22:00 - [459] - Quote Sleepy Shadow wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Sleepy Shadow wrote: [Why do you need to nerf the assaults? A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies. You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done. I donGÇÖt care about your speed curve, I care about the roles in this game and their interaction with each other. Gimping the assault just so it fits on your pretty graph is not a good enough reason to nerf it. Your question has been answered a dozen times in this thread alone. I'll try to answer it again ... differently. No two factors influence survivability by greater degree than Speed and HP. I think we can all agree on this point. A system which enforces a tradeoff between these two factors will be more balanced than a system which does not. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:22:00 - [460] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: -I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. And I liked my ADS ROF bonus as something that actually made a difference. Point being that we don't all get what we want, so I guess I'll tell you what most people get told: suck it up. Also, not everyone wants strafe speed to stay as is, there are white a lot that hate this stupid wiggling. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:28:00 - [461] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: -I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. And I liked my ADS ROF bonus as something that actually made a difference. Point being that we don't all get what we want, so I guess I'll tell you what most people get told: suck it up. Also, not everyone wants strafe speed to stay as is, there are white a lot that hate this stupid wiggling. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA CANNOT. LIKE. THIS. POST. ENOUGH. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 921	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:29:00 - [462] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Tweak Min Assault to 4.95 base and I think you have a bingo. Google Doc Tweaked! Looks pretty good. Personally, don't like that the MN Assault is a faster sprinter than the AM Scout, but your model looks good. Looks good. To doubters, Gallente assault movement speed would still be significantly quicker than a commando. Sprint speed would be the same as now, and plenty faster than a logi.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:34:00 - [463] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Tweak Min Assault to 4.95 base and I think you have a bingo. Google Doc Tweaked! Looks pretty good. Personally, don't like that the MN Assault is a faster sprinter than the AM Scout, but your model looks good. Looks good. To doubters, Gallente assault movement speed would still be significantly quicker than a commando. Sprint speed would be the same as now, and plenty faster than a logi. Changed name of model to "Booby's Model". Sprint speed would actually be slightly faster for all Assaults: MN - 7.80 (up from 7.79) GA - 7.40 (up from 7.35) CA - 7.40 (up from 7.35) AM - 7.09 (up from 7.06) @ Booby This is your model, but I think we should reduce MN Logi base movement from 5.30. 5.30 is the current MN Assault's base movement. Rattati's original model (Page 1) has it at 5.25 (tied with AM Scout). My two cents. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:50:00 - [464] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Sleepy Shadow wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Sleepy Shadow wrote: [Why do you need to nerf the assaults? A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies. You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done. I donGÇÖt care about your speed curve, I care about the roles in this game and their interaction with each other. Gimping the assault just so it fits on your pretty graph is not a good enough reason to nerf it. Your question has been answered a dozen times; I'll try to answer it again ... differently. No two factors influence survivability by greater degree than Speed and HP. I think we can all agree on this point. A system which enforces a tradeoff between these two factors will be more balanced than a system which does not. Except for hitbox. And dps, which granted is an offensive survivability state, but a survivability stat all the same. eHp isn't the only thing that makes an assault effective. It's mainly speed and dps with a moderate emphasis on eHp. What made scouts effective before? Speed, hitbox and scans. What made logis effective in the killerbee days? Speed, eHp and repping hives. What's the common denominator? Speed. Why? Because taking no damage is better than having more damage to take. When assaults can no longer strafe effectively not only scouts but heavies will gain a distinct advantage over them as well as logis... Rattati wants this to be the last rebalance on suits for a while so I fear things will be left as is. Assaults will be a thing of the past, no matter how much people claim it won't be so. As soon as they are incapable of avoiding fire from scouts, logis, commandos and heavies they will change to other suits and that is not the goal. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:54:00 - [465] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: In short, frustrated or not, having a cohesive game design that allows for fundamental balance to finally replace the back and forth we've dealt with for years trumps any particular current effects those changes have on you, me, or any specific sub-facet of the game. 0.02 ISK Easy to say. Harder to live with. Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: -I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. How can anyone say this with the massive hit detection issues currently in game ?! Again. Mobility is king in CQC. All the EHP in the world won't matter if they can hit you but you can't hit them. Easy or hard it's is an objective reality and we either live with that or live with continued imbalance until the servers burn out. I have yet to see any evidence which indicates there is a viable long term third option. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:55:00 - [466] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: ... SlayerLogis aren't coming back like you think, never were. Question about that set of figures that does finally appear on page 17, are those cpu/pg values proposed the final values? Pre-skills values? And 10% fitting on eq, that is also in addition to existing logi bonuses, correct? Are eq load costs going to be modified at all? Are those eq bonuses going to be flat or racially varied? I've kept up on the logistics/support thread and recognize much of this stemming from there so definitley see the progress but the last 20 pages is resteering us into overall wash territory at risk of nerfs. Give CalLogi the sidearm. Buff the speeds, and most of the rest of the base stats. Don't swap for other existing, end of the day logis are still combat gimped relative to ALL other combat frames by virtue of (even after buffs) still significantly lower hp, no weapon bonuses and fitting limits. If theres an issue with Assault bonuses and their utility handle that like it is- a separate issue . End point is EVERY other frame has received a healthy round of buffing to keep pace with the last year and a half of meta-shifts except Logis. We got armor regen returned, sort of, but otherwise we're still living the penalties of an unrepeatable era. We need some small buffing tweaks and thats it. Small. But we need buffing. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:58:00 - [467] - Quote Strongly believe 90% of the babble about "SlayerLogis" would have been avoided if the cpu/pg and eq fitting info was in the OP. People all worked up about nothing. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:01:00 - [468] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: -I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. How can anyone say this with the massive hit detection issues currently in game ?! Again. Mobility is king in CQC. All the EHP in the world won't matter if they can hit you but you can't hit them. That is EXACTLY my point. Know what cannot be known.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:03:00 - [469] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Sleepy Shadow wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Sleepy Shadow wrote: [Why do you need to nerf the assaults? A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies. You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done. I donGÇÖt care about your speed curve, I care about the roles in this game and their interaction with each other. Gimping the assault just so it fits on your pretty graph is not a good enough reason to nerf it. Your question has been answered a dozen times; I'll try to answer it again ... differently. No two factors influence survivability by greater degree than Speed and HP. I think we can all agree on this point. A system which enforces a tradeoff between these two factors will be more balanced than a system which does not. Except for hitbox. If hitbox size were a bigger survivability factor than speed or HP, then Scout and Light Frame kill/spawn efficiency would be at the top of the pile rather than the bottom. Right? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:05:00 - [470] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: In short, frustrated or not, having a cohesive game design that allows for fundamental balance to finally replace the back and forth we've dealt with for years trumps any particular current effects those changes have on you, me, or any specific sub-facet of the game. 0.02 ISK Easy to say. Harder to live with. Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: -I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. How can anyone say this with the massive hit detection issues currently in game ?! Again. Mobility is king in CQC. All the EHP in the world won't matter if they can hit you but you can't hit them. Easy or hard it's is an objective reality and we either live with that or live with continued imbalance until the servers burn out. I have yet to see any evidence which indicates there is a viable long term third option. The third option is obvious. Buff the other stuff and take the balance changes slow. Make your buffs, gather data and move on from there. It's hardly a massive operation to tweak a couple numbers later after gathering data. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.

Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:09:00 - [471] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Sleepy Shadow wrote: Adipem Notthi wrote: A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies. You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done. I donGÇÖt care about your speed curve, I care about the roles in this game and their interaction with each other. Gimping the assault just so it fits on your pretty graph is not a good enough reason to nerf it. Your question has been answered a dozen times; I'll try to answer it again ... differently. No two factors influence survivability by greater degree than Speed and HP. I think we can all agree on this point. A system which enforces a tradeoff between these two factors will be more balanced than a system which does not. Except for hitbox. If hitbox size were a bigger survivability factor than speed or HP, then Scout and Light Frame kill/spawn efficiency would be at the top of the pile rather than the bottom. Right? Except for when they were, right? Oh, right, because even main survivability sources rely on underlying stats as well.... Where's my head at? And the heavies don't have an issue with getting headshot constantly with that huge head hitbox, do they? So glad you chimed in. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:12:00 - [472] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Buff the other stuff .... If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite. In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:17:00 - [473] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If hitbox size were a bigger survivability factor than speed or HP, then Scout and Light Frame kill/spawn efficiency would be at the top of the pile rather than the bottom. Right? Except for when they were, right? Yes, before the High Speed / High HP Min Assault was FoTM High Speed / High HP Scouts were FoTM. Assault Lite shouldn't be allowed to happen again, and a system which appropriately enforces a tradeoff between Speed and HP will prevent it from happening again. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:19:00 - [474] - Quote The ***** balance work is done . Final buffset time and lets move to other issues already! **! Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:19:00 - [475] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Buff the other stuff .... If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite. In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve. But eHp isn't on the table, it's speed. I wouldn't mind assaults having LOGI health if their speed remained. I'll say it again: Not taking damage trumps having more damage to take. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:25:00 - [476] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Buff the other stuff .... If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite. In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve. But eHp isn't on the table, it's speed. I wouldn't mind assaults having LOGI health if their speed remained. I'll say it again: Not taking damage trumps having more damage to take. How well would Assaults will substantially less HP hold up against HMG Heavies? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 244	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:29:00 - [477] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If hitbox size were a bigger survivability factor than speed or HP, then Scout and Light Frame kill/spawn efficiency would be at the top of the pile rather than the bottom. Right? Except for when they were, right? Correct. Before the High Speed / High HP Min Assaults were FoTM, High Speed / High HP Scouts were FoTM. There's a pattern here. Assault Lite shouldn't be allowed to happen again, and a system which appropriately enforces a tradeoff between Speed and HP would prevent it from happening again. No one -- especially Scouts -- wants to see a return of Scout 514. Yeah, but thats what dust is about. Heavy snipers, fast assaults, fast heavies, tanked scouts. Petition to ban the trainyard map.
Songs of Seraphim Negative-Feedback. 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:33:00 - [478] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: ... SlayerLogis aren't coming back like you think, never were. Question about that set of figures that does finally appear on page 17, are those cpu/pg values proposed the final values? Pre-skills values? And 10% fitting on eq, that is also in addition to existing logi bonuses, correct? Are eq load costs going to be modified at all? Are those eq bonuses going to be flat or racially varied? I've kept up on the logistics/support thread and recognize much of this stemming from there so definitley see the progress but the last 20 pages is resteering us into overall wash territory at risk of nerfs. Give CalLogi the sidearm. Buff the speeds, and most of the rest of the base stats. Don't swap for other existing, end of the day logis are still combat gimped relative to ALL other combat frames by virtue of (even after buffs) still significantly lower hp, no weapon bonuses and fitting limits. If theres an issue with Assault bonuses and their utility handle that like it is- a separate issue . End point is EVERY other frame has received a healthy round of buffing to keep pace with the last year and a half of meta-shifts except Logis. We got armor regen returned, sort of, but otherwise we're still living the penalties of an unrepeatable era. We need some small buffing tweaks and thats it. Small. But we need buffing. Except actual Caldari Logistics would PREFER a FOURTH EQUIPMENT slot rather than the 4th low slot or sidearm. I have my Caldari Assault for the damn sidearm. -.- Again, I'm all for the buffing of Commando and Logistic roles, but not at the expense of the Assault role. Caldari Loyalist Join Caldari FW via Kirjuun Saaja
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:36:00 - [479] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: The third option is obvious. Buff the other stuff and take the balance changes slow. Make your buffs, gather data and move on from there. It's hardly a massive operation to tweak a couple numbers later after gathering data. That is literally not able to be an alternative to what I was talking about. Specific changes nerf or buff, to any given aspect can be part of a base method, or can happen absent a base method but in no case are they an alternative to a choice between having a base method or not. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:39:00 - [480] - Quote Looking at a lot of the discussion and what Rattati has posted so far I do think it's good to correlate Base HP to movement. I would say though that it is critically important to take into account HP, walk speed, sprint speed, stamina, and stamina regeneration in a complete picture and make sure that the way those stats are set the logistics suits and assault suits are best able to fulfill their roles. If walk speed correlates to strafe speed and that's the most important combat movement in people's mind then the assault should probably have the best walk speed. After that take HP to Movement curve and adjust the other stats (sprint speed modifier, stamina, stamina regeneration) so it falls in line. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:40:00 - [481] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Buff the other stuff .... If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite. In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve. But eHp isn't on the table, it's speed. I wouldn't mind assaults having LOGI health if their speed remained. I'll say it again: Not taking damage trumps having more damage to take. Establishing a proper baseline inverse ratio between eHP and speed is the purpose and point. The method for doing it is currently talking about tweaks to speed not HP but the goal is the proper ratio. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:41:00 - [482] - Quote hails8n wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If hitbox size were a bigger survivability factor than speed or HP, then Scout and Light Frame kill/spawn efficiency would be at the top of the pile rather than the bottom. Right? Except for when they were, right? Correct. Before the High Speed / High HP Min Assaults were FoTM, High Speed / High HP Scouts were FoTM. There's a pattern here. Assault Lite shouldn't be allowed to happen again, and a system which appropriately enforces a tradeoff between Speed and HP would prevent it from happening again. No one -- especially Scouts -- wants to see a return of Scout 514. Yeah, but thats what dust is about. Heavy snipers, fast assaults, fast heavies, tanked scouts. To the extent that they are not imbalanced, absolutely! The contention here is that Fast Assaults aren't balanced. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:50:00 - [483] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Buff the other stuff .... If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite. In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve. But eHp isn't on the table, it's speed. I wouldn't mind assaults having LOGI health if their speed remained. I'll say it again: Not taking damage trumps having more damage to take. Then go back to bricktanking a Scout suit, thats the playstyle you're describing (speed > all for slaying) so must be what you'd normally be doing. NEXT IN LINE!! Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Sleepy Shadow Qualified Scrub 387	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:50:00 - [484] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Buff the other stuff .... If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite. In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve. This whole curve is ridiculous when you do not take into account different roles and what they are supposed to be doing and how. You cannot balance suits this way. Why on earth would scouts need a speed or HP buff if assaults retain their speed? And no, because it fits on your pretty picture is not a reason. Scouts rely on not being seen and their speed as is, is sufficient to support this and so is their HP. If scouts are lacking in the EWAR department then buff that so that they can do their sneaky-stabby business and infiltrate the enemy side. Give them higher bandwidth while youGÇÖre at it. We can all agree that the Minmitar assault is overstepping its intended role into the scout territory and we can all agree that it needs fixing. But kicking all the assaults in the process is unnecessary. This whole graph and conversation is so absurd. =ƒÿ¦
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:53:00 - [485] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Buff the other stuff .... If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite. In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve. But eHp isn't on the table, it's speed. I wouldn't mind assaults having LOGI health if their speed remained. I'll say it again: Not taking damage trumps having more damage to take. Establishing a proper baseline inverse ratio between eHP and speed is the purpose and point. The method for doing it is currently talking about tweaks to speed not HP but the goal is the proper ratio. But balance in what way? Combat efficacy? Role fulfillment? The thing is that certain suits are expected to be good a certain things. Having speed and eHp all perfectly lined up in a chart looks nice but does not take into account all facets involved. That said, I understand that no reasonable approach can take everything into account. The variables are far too diverse and dependant on relatively unpredictable human behavior on top of it. However the power balance isn't fixed by changing things drastically because you have a pretty chart where the dots line up in a pleasing pattern, it's done by making small changes in the direction that you think will help while gathering data as you go. I understand the idea behind this, but the assault at it's most bare is a run and gun class. When you take the run out of it, you are basically making another heavy suit with a smaller hitbox. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:54:00 - [486] - Quote Songs of Seraphim wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: ... SlayerLogis aren't coming back like you think, never were. Question about that set of figures that does finally appear on page 17, are those cpu/pg values proposed the final values? Pre-skills values? And 10% fitting on eq, that is also in addition to existing logi bonuses, correct? Are eq load costs going to be modified at all? Are those eq bonuses going to be flat or racially varied? I've kept up on the logistics/support thread and recognize much of this stemming from there so definitley see the progress but the last 20 pages is resteering us into overall wash territory at risk of nerfs. Give CalLogi the sidearm. Buff the speeds, and most of the rest of the base stats. Don't swap for other existing, end of the day logis are still combat gimped relative to ALL other combat frames by virtue of (even after buffs) still significantly lower hp, no weapon bonuses and fitting limits. If theres an issue with Assault bonuses and their utility handle that like it is- a separate issue . End point is EVERY other frame has received a healthy round of buffing to keep pace with the last year and a half of meta-shifts except Logis. We got armor regen returned, sort of, but otherwise we're still living the penalties of an unrepeatable era. We need some small buffing tweaks and thats it. Small. But we need buffing. Except actual Caldari Logistics would PREFER a FOURTH EQUIPMENT slot rather than the 4th low slot or sidearm. I have my Caldari Assault for the damn sidearm. -.- Again, I'm all for the buffing of Commando and Logistic roles, but not at the expense of the Assault role. Thanks, I run CalLogi every day, have for a loong time now. NEXT IN LINE!!! Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:57:00 - [487] - Quote LOL @ everyone who fails at recognizing what graphs/dataplots are. Just so much fail in here.... Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 246	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:01:00 - [488] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: hails8n wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If hitbox size were a bigger survivability factor than speed or HP, then Scout and Light Frame kill/spawn efficiency would be at the top of the pile rather than the bottom. Right? Except for when they were, right? Correct. Before the High Speed / High HP Min Assaults were FoTM, High Speed / High HP Scouts were FoTM. There's a pattern here. Assault Lite shouldn't be allowed to happen again, and a system which appropriately enforces a tradeoff between Speed and HP would prevent it from happening again. No one -- especially Scouts -- wants to see a return of Scout 514. Yeah, but thats what dust is about. Heavy snipers, fast assaults, fast heavies, tanked scouts. To the extent that they are not imbalanced, absolutely! The contention here is that Fast Assaults aren't balanced. The only fast assault is the min assault. It was always supposed to border between being a scout and an assault.Just like amarr scouts border between being a scout and an assault. I think the real problem was when alll minmatar suits got an hp buff, the min assault was balanced to me back then at least after the slot layout increase. I'd rather have its hp nerfed over speed, because speed is what min assaults are all about, but when an 800 hp suit is running at you at 9 meters per sec, whats the point of owning a scout then. So id be debating on an hp Nerf. Petition to ban the trainyard map.
Songs of Seraphim Negative-Feedback. 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:04:00 - [489] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Songs of Seraphim wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: ... SlayerLogis aren't coming back like you think, never were. Question about that set of figures that does finally appear on page 17, are those cpu/pg values proposed the final values? Pre-skills values? And 10% fitting on eq, that is also in addition to existing logi bonuses, correct? Are eq load costs going to be modified at all? Are those eq bonuses going to be flat or racially varied? I've kept up on the logistics/support thread and recognize much of this stemming from there so definitley see the progress but the last 20 pages is resteering us into overall wash territory at risk of nerfs. Give CalLogi the sidearm. Buff the speeds, and most of the rest of the base stats. Don't swap for other existing, end of the day logis are still combat gimped relative to ALL other combat frames by virtue of (even after buffs) still significantly lower hp, no weapon bonuses and fitting limits. If theres an issue with Assault bonuses and their utility handle that like it is- a separate issue . End point is EVERY other frame has received a healthy round of buffing to keep pace with the last year and a half of meta-shifts except Logis. We got armor regen returned, sort of, but otherwise we're still living the penalties of an unrepeatable era. We need some small buffing tweaks and thats it. Small. But we need buffing. Except actual Caldari Logistics would PREFER a FOURTH EQUIPMENT slot rather than the 4th low slot or sidearm. I have my Caldari Assault for the damn sidearm. -.- Again, I'm all for the buffing of Commando and Logistic roles, but not at the expense of the Assault role. Thanks, I run CalLogi every day, have for a loong time now. NEXT IN LINE!!! Then you should see the need for that additional equipment slot, rather than a sidearm (which would most likely be a Bolt Pistol at that). Unless you're pushing your own agenda. And here I believed you'd be a tad more constructive. Oh well. Caldari Loyalist Join Caldari FW via Kirjuun Saaja
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:05:00 - [490] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Buff the other stuff .... If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite. In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve. But eHp isn't on the table, it's speed. I wouldn't mind assaults having LOGI health if their speed remained. I'll say it again: Not taking damage trumps having more damage to take. Then go back to bricktanking a Scout suit, thats the playstyle you're describing (speed > all for slaying) so must be what you'd normally be doing. NEXT IN LINE!! Um. Learn how to read maybe? I've been assault since Chromosome and Minmatar assault since 1.0. Your logic is invalid. As is your reading ability. Painfully obvious if you glance at the sig AND know how to read. Speed and small hitbox on scouts on top of Ewar was ridiculous and I fought it every day. Now that they are scannable, their eHp plays a bigger role than it did before but good scouts still do very well for themselves. TL;DR: Your arguments, all of them, are invalid. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:06:00 - [491] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Looking at a lot of the discussion and what Rattati has posted so far I do think it's good to correlate Base HP to movement. I would say though that it is critically important to take into account HP, walk speed, sprint speed, stamina, and stamina regeneration in a complete picture and make sure that the way those stats are set the logistics suits and assault suits are best able to fulfill their roles. If walk speed correlates to strafe speed and that's the most important combat movement in people's mind then the assault should probably have the best walk speed. After that take HP to Movement curve and adjust the other stats (sprint speed modifier, stamina, stamina regeneration) so it falls in line. Good idea. Maybe we're looking at mobility backwards. Sprint: Logi > Assault. Movement: Assaults > Logi. Will put together some numbers later today Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:08:00 - [492] - Quote hails8n wrote: The only fast assault is the min assault. It was always supposed to border between being a scout and an assault.Just like amarr scouts border between being a scout and an assault. I think the real problem was when alll minmatar suits got an hp buff, the min assault was balanced to me back then at least after the slot layout increase. I'd rather have its hp nerfed over speed, because speed is what min assaults are all about, but when an 800 hp suit is running at you at 9 meters per sec, whats the point of owning a scout then. So id be debating on an hp Nerf. Beat me to it, so...... This ^ Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Scheneighnay McBob Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary 7	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:11:00 - [493] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Rattati, I beg of you: Adjust eHP instead of speed for assault if they don't fit on the curve. They've needed an HP nerf for a while. Don't screw with their mobility though. That would be like giving the scrambler rifle ridiculous kick or something to balance it, instead of just nerfing the damage a tiny bit. HP is the problem here, and I can personally promise that. They have so many slots that they can use kincats, is my opinion. I'm in support of the change, but tbh, kincats don't do much. Slower suits especially: increasing a slow movement speed by a percentage is barely an increase; whoever at CCP is making these prefit-suits needs to realize that, and stop trying to put kincats on commandos. It raises their sprint speed by like, .3 Aloha snackbar
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:15:00 - [494] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: hails8n wrote: The only fast assault is the min assault. It was always supposed to border between being a scout and an assault.Just like amarr scouts border between being a scout and an assault. I think the real problem was when alll minmatar suits got an hp buff, the min assault was balanced to me back then at least after the slot layout increase. I'd rather have its hp nerfed over speed, because speed is what min assaults are all about, but when an 800 hp suit is running at you at 9 meters per sec, whats the point of owning a scout then. So id be debating on an hp Nerf. Beat me to it, so...... This ^ Min Assault is the fastest assault but it isn't the only fast assault. Click back a few pages for a 900 HP, 9 m/s GalAssault loadout. If we deleted MInAssaults, these would be the next best high-speed, high-hp units. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:18:00 - [495] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Rattati, I beg of you: Adjust eHP instead of speed for assault if they don't fit on the curve. They've needed an HP nerf for a while. Don't screw with their mobility though. That would be like giving the scrambler rifle ridiculous kick or something to balance it, instead of just nerfing the damage a tiny bit. HP is the problem here, and I can personally promise that. They have so many slots that they can use kincats, is my opinion. I'm in support of the change, but tbh, kincats don't do much. Slower suits especially: increasing a slow movement speed by a percentage is barely an increase; whoever at CCP is making these prefit-suits needs to realize that, and stop trying to put kincats on commandos. It raises their sprint speed by like, .3 I'm not in support of the change, but I agree with your point. if kincats gave a flat mps increase then I could possibly agree with that Ratatti's point, but the slower you make the suit, the less relevant kincats become. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:21:00 - [496] - Quote Songs of Seraphim wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Songs of Seraphim wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: ... SlayerLogis aren't coming back like you think, never were. Question about that set of figures that does finally appear on page 17, are those cpu/pg values proposed the final values? Pre-skills values? And 10% fitting on eq, that is also in addition to existing logi bonuses, correct? Are eq load costs going to be modified at all? Are those eq bonuses going to be flat or racially varied? I've kept up on the logistics/support thread and recognize much of this stemming from there so definitley see the progress but the last 20 pages is resteering us into overall wash territory at risk of nerfs. Give CalLogi the sidearm. Buff the speeds, and most of the rest of the base stats. Don't swap for other existing, end of the day logis are still combat gimped relative to ALL other combat frames by virtue of (even after buffs) still significantly lower hp, no weapon bonuses and fitting limits. If theres an issue with Assault bonuses and their utility handle that like it is- a separate issue . End point is EVERY other frame has received a healthy round of buffing to keep pace with the last year and a half of meta-shifts except Logis. We got armor regen returned, sort of, but otherwise we're still living the penalties of an unrepeatable era. We need some small buffing tweaks and thats it. Small. But we need buffing. Except actual Caldari Logistics would PREFER a FOURTH EQUIPMENT slot rather than the 4th low slot or sidearm. I have my Caldari Assault for the damn sidearm. -.- Again, I'm all for the buffing of Commando and Logistic roles, but not at the expense of the Assault role. Thanks, I run CalLogi every day, have for a loong time now. NEXT IN LINE!!! Then you should see the need for that additional equipment slot, rather than a sidearm (which would most likely be a Bolt Pistol at that). Unless you're pushing your own agenda. And here I believed you'd be a tad more constructive. Oh well. Nope, the bolt pistol and I aren't friends. Sidearm> extra hives or unbonused eq. for the Cal. Want my agenda? Go read the 80-90 page Logistics/Support thread. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:25:00 - [497] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Buff the other stuff .... If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite. In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve. But eHp isn't on the table, it's speed. I wouldn't mind assaults having LOGI health if their speed remained. I'll say it again: Not taking damage trumps having more damage to take. Then go back to bricktanking a Scout suit, thats the playstyle you're describing (speed > all for slaying) so must be what you'd normally be doing. NEXT IN LINE!! Um. Learn how to read maybe? I've been assault since Chromosome and Minmatar assault since 1.0. Your logic is invalid. As is your reading ability. Painfully obvious if you glance at the sig AND know how to read. Speed and small hitbox on scouts on top of Ewar was ridiculous and I fought it every day. Now that they are scannable, their eHp plays a bigger role than it did before but good scouts still do very well for themselves. TL;DR: Your arguments, all of them, are invalid. You prefer speed over hp. Go get a Scout. ^Read THAT. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:27:00 - [498] - Quote i guess is time to skill into the slayer gall logi. The only reason i did not use it is because it is slow but now that it will be faster i wont have any second thoughts and i get to fit scans. thank's AE. C.B2013
Songs of Seraphim Negative-Feedback. 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:30:00 - [499] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Nope, the bolt pistol and I aren't friends. Sidearm> extra hives or unbonused eq. for the Cal. Want my agenda? Go read the 80-90 page Logistics/Support thread. Sidearm isn't as beneficial to a support role than Uplinks or Scanners. Even without a bonus to the equipment, it's beneficial to have as a support role. Not even the Gallente Logi uses more than 2 of its own EQ. And I have been keeping up with Cross' thread up until page 74 or so. Please, please keep it constructive because I'm all but losing respect for you I gained in that thread. Caldari Loyalist Join Caldari FW via Kirjuun Saaja
hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 246	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:36:00 - [500] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: hails8n wrote: The only fast assault is the min assault. It was always supposed to border between being a scout and an assault.Just like amarr scouts border between being a scout and an assault. I think the real problem was when alll minmatar suits got an hp buff, the min assault was balanced to me back then at least after the slot layout increase. I'd rather have its hp nerfed over speed, because speed is what min assaults are all about, but when an 800 hp suit is running at you at 9 meters per sec, whats the point of owning a scout then. So id be debating on an hp Nerf. Beat me to it, so...... This ^ Min Assault is the fastest assault but it isn't the only fast assault. Click back a few pages for a 900 HP, 9 m/s GalAssault loadout. If we deleted MInAssaults, these would be the next best high-speed, high-hp units. I've played all assaults with stacked kincats. Min assault gets the highest speed to hp ratio, coupled with the best stamina regen. Petition to ban the trainyard map.

Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:37:00 - [501] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Then go back to bricktanking a Scout suit, thats the playstyle you're describing (speed > all for slaying) so must be what you'd normally be doing. NEXT IN LINE!! Um. Learn how to read maybe? I've been assault since Chromosome and Minmatar assault since 1.0. Your logic is invalid. As is your reading ability. Painfully obvious if you glance at the sig AND know how to read. Speed and small hitbox on scouts on top of Ewar was ridiculous and I fought it every day. Now that they are scannable, their eHp plays a bigger role than it did before but good scouts still do very well for themselves. TL;DR: Your arguments, all of them, are invalid. You prefer speed over hp. Go get a Scout. ^Read THAT. Your frothing at the mouth quirks are amusing, but don't really change anything from what has already been said. And I've got too much class to be trotting around in a skinsuit. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:39:00 - [502] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: You prefer speed over hp. Go get a Scout. ^Read THAT. NEXT PLEASE! Stopped using regular armour plates months ago. Speed > Armour "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:49:00 - [503] - Quote Songs of Seraphim wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Nope, the bolt pistol and I aren't friends. Sidearm> extra hives or unbonused eq. for the Cal. Want my agenda? Go read the 80-90 page Logistics/Support thread. Sidearm isn't as beneficial to a support role than Uplinks or Scanners. Even without a bonus to the equipment, it's beneficial to have as a support role. Not even the Gallente Logi uses more than 2 of its own EQ. And I have been keeping up with Cross' thread up until page 74 or so. Please, please keep it constructive because I'm all but losing respect for you I gained in that thread. Constructive for whom, exactly? The ***** crying about hypotheticals that won't materalise? Or the *** who insist Logis only play one way? Or the ***** crafting spreadsheets and graphs that undo the 74 pages you did read and the other 20 behind them so that, if for no other reason, they can sneak in their own new buffs along the way. The balance is done. After page 17 in here, when the rest of the idea was put forward, the critisism and undermining should have STOPPED. But instead theres just page after page of theorycrapted garbage. I'm in the support thread being constructive. I'm in here passing out all the STFU I can serve. NewsFlash: I run GalLogi every day too and guess what? Its entire slotset is scanners. Thatd be more than 2. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:52:00 - [504] - Quote NEXT. IN. LINE!!!! Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:52:00 - [505] - Quote True Adamance wrote: No a one uses speed reducing HP modules. Speed > Armour I suspect that usage rates will indicate otherwise. According to thang.dk, all forms of Armor are very popular at the moment and they have been for quite some time. Basic and Enhanced Plates always make the Top 10, and they usually outsell Reactive and Ferro. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H No Context 572	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:02:00 - [506] - Quote Hey guys, let's try and adapt to whatever comes first before we make a decision. We may find a work around for our desired suits. If it is truly a problem then CCP Raticate will surely come with spreadsheets as his sword and shield but for now, let's try and have fun. That's what a videogame is for right? Instead of imagining that we rip each other's guts why don't we try and have some fun? Click me
Songs of Seraphim Negative-Feedback. 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:05:00 - [507] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Songs of Seraphim wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Nope, the bolt pistol and I aren't friends. Sidearm> extra hives or unbonused eq. for the Cal. Want my agenda? Go read the 80-90 page Logistics/Support thread. Sidearm isn't as beneficial to a support role than Uplinks or Scanners. Even without a bonus to the equipment, it's beneficial to have as a support role. Not even the Gallente Logi uses more than 2 of its own EQ. And I have been keeping up with Cross' thread up until page 74 or so. Please, please keep it constructive because I'm all but losing respect for you I gained in that thread. Constructive for whom, exactly? The ***** crying about hypotheticals that won't materalise? Or the *** who insist Logis only play one way? Or the ***** crafting spreadsheets and graphs that undo the 74 pages you did read and the other 20 behind them so that, if for no other reason, they can sneak in their own new buffs along the way. The balance is done. After page 17 in here, when the rest of the idea was put forward, the critisism and undermining should have STOPPED. But instead theres just page after page of theorycrapted garbage. I'm in the support thread being constructive. I'm in here passing out all the STFU I can serve. NewsFlash: I run GalLogi every day too and guess what? Its entire slotset is scanners. Thatd be more than 2. And now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Caldari Loyalist Join Caldari FW via Kirjuun Saaja
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:06:00 - [508] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: hails8n wrote: The only fast assault is the min assault. It was always supposed to border between being a scout and an assault.Just like amarr scouts border between being a scout and an assault. I think the real problem was when alll minmatar suits got an hp buff, the min assault was balanced to me back then at least after the slot layout increase. I'd rather have its hp nerfed over speed, because speed is what min assaults are all about, but when an 800 hp suit is running at you at 9 meters per sec, whats the point of owning a scout then. So id be debating on an hp Nerf. Beat me to it, so...... This ^ Min Assault is the fastest assault but it isn't the only fast assault. Click back a few pages for a 900 HP, 9 m/s GalAssault loadout. If we deleted MInAssaults, these would be the next best high-speed, high-hp units. High speed high hp suicide suits don't really matter when you are talking about survivability. Sure it can run 9m/sec for a bout few seconds, then wait twice as long to run again. If damaged at any point, waiting almost 12 seconds for shields to start coming back at measly 20 HP/sec is laughable. Not to mention that armour repair... Why even add plates if it takes you 3.5 MINUTES to get back? The only good thing about this suit is that if you manage your stamina properly, don't get scanned and manage to get close, your suit has a shotgun bonus. Beyond that though this is a suicide suit. Slayer suits are self sustaining and built around a playstyle the suit itself is made for and that suit is a blatant attempt at showing off certain stats possible while ignoring it's glaring failures. It's easily scanned, even passively, it's got not got nearly enough stamina or stamina recovery to accentuate it's speed (which is why the Minmatar suit works so well) and it has no means of properly healing it's health in a meaningful way. So in short, your example is sorely lacking. You show it's possible to have a decent speed with ok eHp, but you also show at the same time how bad you are at fitting suits. And I don't mean that mockingly, I sincerely mean that it would take intentional effort to make a suit less survivable than this. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge No Context 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:17:00 - [509] - Quote I think ratitati needs to do what he had in mind with balancing speed vrs HP and everyone just needs to shut up and take it. It needs to be done and should have been done from the beginning. You guys are as bad as the U.S. Congress... You can't agree on anything, there's always someone crying for special consideration for his "party" and claiming the other guys getting the better deal, another guy derailing the topic with his unrelated concerns, another over complicating it trying to fix to many things at once, and then you have the endless pissing contests in the middle of a serious "discussion". We need a proper foundation, grounding principles with which to balance off of and without these we get inconsistencies such as the old amarr and gal sentinel slot counts. So many cried over it but it HAD to be done and we balanced around it. This is the same thing! Let's set our foundation and build from there, balancing bonus' if need be. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:19:00 - [510] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: hails8n wrote: The only fast assault is the min assault. It was always supposed to border between being a scout and an assault.Just like amarr scouts border between being a scout and an assault. I think the real problem was when alll minmatar suits got an hp buff, the min assault was balanced to me back then at least after the slot layout increase. I'd rather have its hp nerfed over speed, because speed is what min assaults are all about, but when an 800 hp suit is running at you at 9 meters per sec, whats the point of owning a scout then. So id be debating on an hp Nerf. Beat me to it, so...... This ^ Min Assault is the fastest assault but it isn't the only fast assault. Click back a few pages for a 900 HP, 9 m/s GalAssault loadout. If we deleted MInAssaults, these would be the next best high-speed, high-hp units. High speed high hp suicide suits don't really matter when you are talking about survivability. Sure it can run 9m/sec for a bout few seconds, then wait twice as long to run again. If damaged at any point, waiting almost 12 seconds for shields to start coming back at measly 20 HP/sec is laughable. Not to mention that armour repair... Why even add plates if it takes you 3.5 MINUTES to get back? The only good thing about this suit is that if you manage your stamina properly, don't get scanned and manage to get close, your suit has a shotgun bonus. Beyond that though this is a suicide suit. Slayer suits are self sustaining and built around a playstyle the suit itself is made for and that suit is a blatant attempt at showing off certain stats possible while ignoring it's glaring failures. It's easily scanned, even passively, it's got not got nearly enough stamina or stamina recovery to accentuate it's speed (which is why the Minmatar suit works so well) and it has no means of properly healing it's health in a meaningful way. So in short, your example is sorely lacking. You show it's possible to have a decent speed with ok eHp, but you also show at the same time how bad you are at fitting suits. And I don't mean that mockingly, I sincerely mean that it would take intentional effort to make a suit less survivable than this. 9 m/s is decent speed? 900 HP is "ok" HP? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:21:00 - [511] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: But balance in what way? CCP Rattati wrote: The designs need to make sense, intuitively. In order of priority, imagine a pyramid Slot progression needs to make sense, within roles and between roles PG/CPU capacity as they relate to slots and their layout HP and Speed are inverse, that's just physics and again intuitive These 3 principles form the foundation for Dropsuits. While they don't make sense, all the small things on top don't really matter. That's why I am not tackling role bonuses, because the foundation is cracked and not worth building on. CCP Rattati wrote: The rules of thumb as applied to the Medium class now: Mobility (stamina pool and recovery) CA/GA = normal Amarr= 5% lower Minmatar = 5% higher Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x eHP Basic = normal Logistics = lower Assault = higher Speed Basic = normal Logistics = higher Assault = lower Or if one wishes to be over focused on purely the logi assault contrast CCP Rattati wrote: Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now. But the simple goal is that things make sense game wide, one method for all roles and when it comes to survivability that everyone has enough of it to preform their roles rather than be "chum" for the "sharks" to feed off of without concern. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H No Context 572	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:34:00 - [512] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: hails8n wrote: The only fast assault is the min assault. It was always supposed to border between being a scout and an assault.Just like amarr scouts border between being a scout and an assault. I think the real problem was when alll minmatar suits got an hp buff, the min assault was balanced to me back then at least after the slot layout increase. I'd rather have its hp nerfed over speed, because speed is what min assaults are all about, but when an 800 hp suit is running at you at 9 meters per sec, whats the point of owning a scout then. So id be debating on an hp Nerf. Beat me to it, so...... This ^ Min Assault is the fastest assault but it isn't the only fast assault. Click back a few pages for a 900 HP, 9 m/s GalAssault loadout. If we deleted MInAssaults, these would be the next best high-speed, high-hp units. High speed high hp suicide suits don't really matter when you are talking about survivability. Sure it can run 9m/sec for a bout few seconds, then wait twice as long to run again. If damaged at any point, waiting almost 12 seconds for shields to start coming back at measly 20 HP/sec is laughable. Not to mention that armour repair... Why even add plates if it takes you 3.5 MINUTES to get back? The only good thing about this suit is that if you manage your stamina properly, don't get scanned and manage to get close, your suit has a shotgun bonus. Beyond that though this is a suicide suit. Slayer suits are self sustaining and built around a playstyle the suit itself is made for and that suit is a blatant attempt at showing off certain stats possible while ignoring it's glaring failures. It's easily scanned, even passively, it's got not got nearly enough stamina or stamina recovery to accentuate it's speed (which is why the Minmatar suit works so well) and it has no means of properly healing it's health in a meaningful way. So in short, your example is sorely lacking. You show it's possible to have a decent speed with ok eHp, but you also show at the same time how bad you are at fitting suits. And I don't mean that mockingly, I sincerely mean that it would take intentional effort to make a suit less survivable than this. 9 m/s is decent speed? 900 HP is "ok" HP? Well let's think about it this way, the min assault was BUILT to be fast, it also happens to be having highest stamina regen. While the Gal was built to be a lightweight armor tanker with low stamina pool compared to min. So you see for the Gal to be fast, you have to mod it to go fast while for the min being fast and having stamina advantage is a given. Long story short, the min is the only suit that can actually act almost like a sout UNMODDED. Don't kill me for saying something guys Click me
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:38:00 - [513] - Quote Songs of Seraphim wrote: And now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. No, its arguing for the sake of clearing the bobo ****** crowd out and getting this implementation back where it belongs: Being Implemented** . Not random. Not OP. Not at some insurmountable hypothetical cost OR profit to slayers. Don't get it twisted. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:40:00 - [514] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: ... SlayerLogis aren't coming back like you think, never were. Question about that set of figures that does finally appear on page 17, are those cpu/pg values proposed the final values? Pre-skills values? And 10% fitting on eq, that is also in addition to existing logi bonuses, correct? Are eq load costs going to be modified at all? Are those eq bonuses going to be flat or racially varied? I've kept up on the logistics/support thread and recognize much of this stemming from there so definitley see the progress but the last 20 pages is resteering us into overall wash territory at risk of nerfs. Give CalLogi the sidearm. Buff the speeds, and most of the rest of the base stats. Don't swap for other existing, end of the day logis are still combat gimped relative to ALL other combat frames by virtue of (even after buffs) still significantly lower hp, no weapon bonuses and fitting limits. If theres an issue with Assault bonuses and their utility handle that like it is- a separate issue . End point is EVERY other frame has received a healthy round of buffing to keep pace with the last year and a half of meta-shifts except Logis. We got armor regen returned, sort of, but otherwise we're still living the penalties of an unrepeatable era. We need some small buffing tweaks and thats it. Small. But we need buffing. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:55:00 - [515] - Quote CeeJ Mantis wrote: Mini-rant here: 1. Nobody seems to like commandos, but give the assault the commando's bonuses and weapon selection, and people seem all on board 2. This assault pity about how the class with the highest kills/spawn is going to be hit so hard by this small adjustment because their assault wont be the second fastest, and have more hp than a commando, hits similarly hard as a commando, and gets a bonus to weapon performance (cal is a notable exception), and has more slots than most suits in the game so you can make it do whatever you want is so hard. Seriously, the suit is not so bad if yoi are all using it, and performing well with it. 3. all this talk of compact nanohives on their new "slayer-logi" proposal fits, and nobody wants to fit a nanite injector? Compacts use the same fitting as srandard hives now. 3 nanohives on a fit, and noboy wants to fit an injector when you have 4 slots?! Does it need a buff? Can everyone carry a basic one for free? Can we use it to siphon health/ammo from our enemies? /Rant Aeon has gone on a 20 page rant because his crutch with 100 000 purchases every day is going to be altered slightly so it's not as strong as it currently is! If he's not arbitrarily the best because reasons things are bullshit and need to not change ever. I mean assaults are always supposed to be the best option for everything ever, and how dare the commando have a damage bonus and weapon versatility. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H No Context 573	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:58:00 - [516] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: CeeJ Mantis wrote: Mini-rant here: 1. Nobody seems to like commandos, but give the assault the commando's bonuses and weapon selection, and people seem all on board 2. This assault pity about how the class with the highest kills/spawn is going to be hit so hard by this small adjustment because their assault wont be the second fastest, and have more hp than a commando, hits similarly hard as a commando, and gets a bonus to weapon performance (cal is a notable exception), and has more slots than most suits in the game so you can make it do whatever you want is so hard. Seriously, the suit is not so bad if yoi are all using it, and performing well with it. 3. all this talk of compact nanohives on their new "slayer-logi" proposal fits, and nobody wants to fit a nanite injector? Compacts use the same fitting as srandard hives now. 3 nanohives on a fit, and noboy wants to fit an injector when you have 4 slots?! Does it need a buff? Can everyone carry a basic one for free? Can we use it to siphon health/ammo from our enemies? /Rant Aeon has gone on a 20 page rant because his crutch with 100 000 purchases every day is going to be altered slightly so it's not as strong as it currently is! If he's not arbitrarily the best because reasons things are bullshit and need to not change ever. I mean assaults are always supposed to be the best option for everything ever, and how dare the commando have a damage bonus and weapon versatility. ^ A valid point Click me
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 22:00:00 - [517] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: But balance in what way? CCP Rattati wrote: The designs need to make sense, intuitively. In order of priority, imagine a pyramid Slot progression needs to make sense, within roles and between roles PG/CPU capacity as they relate to slots and their layout HP and Speed are inverse, that's just physics and again intuitive These 3 principles form the foundation for Dropsuits. While they don't make sense, all the small things on top don't really matter. That's why I am not tackling role bonuses, because the foundation is cracked and not worth building on. CCP Rattati wrote: The rules of thumb as applied to the Medium class now: Mobility (stamina pool and recovery) CA/GA = normal Amarr= 5% lower Minmatar = 5% higher Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x eHP Basic = normal Logistics = lower Assault = higher Speed Basic = normal Logistics = higher Assault = lower Or if one wishes to be over focused on purely the logi assault contrast CCP Rattati wrote: Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now. But the simple goal is that things make sense game wide, one method for all roles and when it comes to survivability that everyone has enough of it to preform their roles rather than be "chum" for the "sharks" to feed off of without concern. I'm not saying that there is nothing valid about this argument, in fact I have already stated that logi suits SHOULD have a speed boost. In fact I would have no issues with them having better tank and slightly less speed than assaults, or vise versa, but dropping assault speed isn't going to do anything apart from marginalizing the suit all over again. You can have a curve and not seperate them by so much. You can plop logi suits between assaults and scouts on your chart without sliding the assault down the scale. Strafe speed is a necessity for a combat oriented suit and you don't get much more combat oriented than what was always purported to be the 'jack of all trades' frontlines suit. I've seen the argument before from the other side of the fence, the 'balance everything around my suit' argument and that is not what I'm going for here. What I'm saying is that the gunplay mechanics in this game require strafing ability and the assault is where it needs to be in this area already. Sprint speed is an open topic, but for combat efficacy it's strafe speed needs to remain as it is or it will simply become a cover-to-cover fighter for everyone except kb/m users. This may not be an issue for Ratatti since he is one, but for the vast majority of players that I feel justified in assuming use ds3 input, this is a drastic change that makes a world of difference. If logi suits need to have more maneuverability and less tank than assaults I can understand that. Swap stamina models with assaults and logi suits and plop them equal or above assault suits on your chart. Or put their walk speed below assaults and their sprint above. I can see the merit of having a baseline means of scaling speed and eHp, but I simply don't see how it is important to keep a speed teir looking pretty on a chart when the chart itself has no direct correlation to balanced gunplay for combat classes and there is no evidence to suggest that it has one. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 22:02:00 - [518] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: I think ratitati needs to do what he had in mind with balancing speed vrs HP and everyone just needs to shut up and take it. It needs to be done and should have been done from the beginning. You guys are as bad as the U.S. Congress... You can't agree on anything, there's always someone crying for special consideration for his "party" and claiming the other guys getting the better deal, another guy derailing the topic with his unrelated concerns, another over complicating it trying to fix to many things at once, and then you have the endless pissing contests in the middle of a serious "discussion". We need a proper foundation, grounding principles with which to balance off of and without these we get inconsistencies such as the old amarr and gal sentinel slot counts. So many cried over it but it HAD to be done and we balanced around it. This is the same thing! Let's set our foundation and build from there, balancing bonus' if need be. Just making sure those in the cheap seats get to hear it.... CPM 1 member CEO of DUST University Vist dustcpm.com
Oswald Rehnquist 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 22:04:00 - [519] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: My problem is that I had to repeatedly ask what the overall goal here was and I brought up points of contention that, I feel, weren't fully considered. The question (that I feel were not answered) I asked were: - How is the Gal Assault's role going to be made more viable so that it's intended design is being used competitively? - What is going to put the weaker Assaults on par with their current performance whereas the problem Assaults are justifiably brought down? - What unique role does the Assault play that justifies it's existence if other roles become more viable/overshadow it? What can the Assault do that no-one else can? - Why make these changes all at once instead of bringing up the Logis/Commandos -AND THEN- bringing the Assaults down? - What evidence do we have that supports that simultaneously buffing Logis/Commandos and nerfing Assaults in the same pass -ISN'T- going to drastically shift the meta spectrum in a way that is unhealthy?/quote] Thanks for linking to your other post. Sometimes stating core concerns painfully simple is needed otherwise it can get overshadowed, which I think your cpm comment gave room for others to shift away from your base concern, it took up about half of your post. I also think your response to me was more concise than your original post, which is why I responded to you in my last post to give you a better platform to express your thoughts unabated. The very simple question of intra balance and inter balance with assaults along with role are extremely reasonable questions. Obviously a lot of people value your opinion since everybody is responding to you (gets overwhelming though). I'd try to alter your arguments and presentation to hit very specific focal points. People wall up when they perceive hostility in an argument, even if it had a solid concern. Things like -If the speed/ehp regression line is the metric for killing power? Would that not diffuse killing power to every suit equally while other suits still have other unique attributes? -Should the game be more role / niche focused with extremes rather than focusing on absolute power to prevent overlap? -Base walking speed is more important that high ehp, then could not logis get the sprint modifier / ehp while assaults get the base speed since the ehp difference is still under the initial alpha damage? Stating one of these alone is a huge topic in and of itself, which is why it has to be very simply stated or else the conversation just slips to another facet without actually going in depth. Also, I actually agree with you that assaults should be the majority suit in the game, that it should fit the killing role the best, with the others having extremely power niches. I share a lot of your concerns because I recognize that a simple tic for tac is glossing over a lot without there being some synchronization. My post in 33, had a similar concern. I feel that the curve is just a base more than a balance, and that there will definitely be a need to deviate from the curve once it gets enacted. [quote=Aeon Amadi] -I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. Seems like a very reasonable and direct quote, shame it didn't get more attention. If the speed ehp curve is what is considered balanced. Then theoretically having assaults at a faster base speed and less ehp and logis having a lower base speed + sprinting would also be balance in the same breath as the proposed suggestion. If the logi role is disrupted by this then it shows that there are other compounding factors as stats should synchronize with logical role. Below 28 dB
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 22:09:00 - [520] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: hails8n wrote: The only fast assault is the min assault. It was always supposed to border between being a scout and an assault.Just like amarr scouts border between being a scout and an assault. I think the real problem was when alll minmatar suits got an hp buff, the min assault was balanced to me back then at least after the slot layout increase. I'd rather have its hp nerfed over speed, because speed is what min assaults are all about, but when an 800 hp suit is running at you at 9 meters per sec, whats the point of owning a scout then. So id be debating on an hp Nerf. Beat me to it, so...... This ^ Min Assault is the fastest assault but it isn't the only fast assault. Click back a few pages for a 900 HP, 9 m/s GalAssault loadout. If we deleted MInAssaults, these would be the next best high-speed, high-hp units. High speed high hp suicide suits don't really matter when you are talking about survivability. Sure it can run 9m/sec for a bout few seconds, then wait twice as long to run again. If damaged at any point, waiting almost 12 seconds for shields to start coming back at measly 20 HP/sec is laughable. Not to mention that armour repair... Why even add plates if it takes you 3.5 MINUTES to get back? The only good thing about this suit is that if you manage your stamina properly, don't get scanned and manage to get close, your suit has a shotgun bonus. Beyond that though this is a suicide suit. Slayer suits are self sustaining and built around a playstyle the suit itself is made for and that suit is a blatant attempt at showing off certain stats possible while ignoring it's glaring failures. It's easily scanned, even passively, it's got not got nearly enough stamina or stamina recovery to accentuate it's speed (which is why the Minmatar suit works so well) and it has no means of properly healing it's health in a meaningful way. So in short, your example is sorely lacking. You show it's possible to have a decent speed with ok eHp, but you also show at the same time how bad you are at fitting suits. And I don't mean that mockingly, I sincerely mean that it would take intentional effort to make a suit less survivable than this. 9 m/s is decent speed? 900 HP is "ok" HP? When you have no hp recovery options, , barely any stamina, pathetic stamina recovery, no ammo options and barely a medium range option on a shotty fit? Yes. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.28 22:17:00 - [521] - Quote CeeJ Mantis wrote: Mini-rant here: 2. This assault pity about how the class with the highest kills/spawn is going to be hit so hard by this small adjustment because their assault wont be the second fastest, and have more hp than a commando, hits similarly hard as a commando, and gets a bonus to weapon performance (cal is a notable exception), and has more slots than most suits in the game so you can make it do whatever you want is so hard. Seriously, the suit is not so bad if yoi are all using it, and performing well with it. To me its not about how effective the suit is but why an unintuitive and frankly in my mind illogical change is going to affect the Assault role. People like it because it is fast and aggressive without relegating them to Scout use. I want to remain a fast sustained DPS themed player. If I wanted heavy assault I would re-skill into Commando. I simply do not see the need to completely undermine this aspect of assault suits because another class needs a buff. Typical buff one while nerfing another balancing we've all seen in the past that rarely ever worked. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 5	Posted - 2015.05.28 22:17:00 - [522] - Quote I think you should reconsider the assault nerf, bring min to 5.10 and call it good..no need to nerf an entire class when only one race is the problem..you are nerfing assaults and buffing everything else, you are double nerfing assaults..fix min ass and keep the rest where they are and buff logi/mando speed..right now you're going down the path of completely removing assaults Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 22:19:00 - [523] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The designs need to make sense, intuitively. In order of priority, imagine a pyramid Slot progression needs to make sense, within roles and between roles PG/CPU capacity as they relate to slots and their layout HP and Speed are inverse, that's just physics and again intuitive These 3 principles form the foundation for Dropsuits. While they don't make sense, all the small things on top don't really matter. That's why I am not tackling role bonuses, because the foundation is cracked and not worth building on. CCP Rattati wrote: The rules of thumb as applied to the Medium class now: Mobility (stamina pool and recovery) CA/GA = normal Amarr= 5% lower Minmatar = 5% higher Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x eHP Basic = normal Logistics = lower Assault = higher Speed Basic = normal Logistics = higher Assault = lower CCP Rattati wrote: Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now. But the simple goal is that things make sense game wide, one method for all roles and when it comes to survivability that everyone has enough of it to preform their roles rather than be "chum" for the "sharks" to feed off of without concern. I'm not saying that there is nothing valid about this argument, in fact I have already stated that logi suits SHOULD have a speed boost. In fact I would have no issues with them having better tank and slightly less speed than assaults, or vise versa, but dropping assault speed isn't going to do anything apart from marginalizing the suit all over again. You can have a curve and not seperate them by so much. You can plop logi suits between assaults and scouts on your chart without sliding the assault down the scale. Strafe speed is a necessity for a combat oriented suit and you don't get much more combat oriented than what was always purported to be the 'jack of all trades' frontlines suit. I've seen the argument before from the other side of the fence, the 'balance everything around my suit' argument and that is not what I'm going for here. What I'm saying is that the gunplay mechanics in this game require strafing ability and the assault is where it needs to be in this area already. Sprint speed is an open topic, but for combat efficacy it's strafe speed needs to remain as it is or it will simply become a cover-to-cover fighter for everyone except kb/m users. This may not be an issue for Ratatti since he is one, but for the vast majority of players that I feel justified in assuming use ds3 input, this is a drastic change that makes a world of difference. If logi suits need to have more maneuverability and less tank than assaults I can understand that. Swap stamina models with assaults and logi suits and plop them equal or above assault suits on your chart. Or put their walk speed below assaults and their sprint above. I can see the merit of having a baseline means of scaling speed and eHp, but I simply don't see how it is important to keep a speed teir looking pretty on a chart when the chart itself has no direct correlation to balanced gunplay for combat classes and there is no evidence to suggest that it has one.[/quote] Just to be clear I'm not sold on, nor advocating, any specific numbers. While I do have my preferences on where logi fall within the intended ratio I'm not even advocating that. The main, perhaps only, thing I'm advocating is that the ratio be a thing so there is a universal foundation applied equitably to all roles. Even though I have my preferences any result that maintains a proper eHP vs speed ratio for all roles is one I'd find acceptable. I don't think this single change will bring the game fully into balance, but I do think having a sensible foundation like that to draw from is important and that any imbalances which are exposed in the light of it are things that likely already need to be addressed even if they are currently obfuscated by circumstance. The chart itself AFAIK is for illustrative purposes, and I certainly cannot comment on it's details as I did not create it nor have I see specific numbers beyond what it present in the OP, but like I say it's not the chart or the specific numbers I'm invested in or advocating, my sole 'skin in the game' here is to support a rational method be foundationally applied to every role equally. 0.02 ISK CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.28 22:25:00 - [524] - Quote "I'm going to switch to logi because it will be a better slayer." -random tryhard and Aeon Amadi wrote: -I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. Translation: I am going to use whichever suit has the higher base movement speed because the hit detection evasion ability in DUST due to poor hit detection is a crutch I cannot live without! Why if all the plebians can actually HIT me consistently my precious KD rating might suffer badly! Here's a hint kids, Strafe breaking hit detection is very real. i demonstrated the technique to cross, did it to him in a minassault, a galassault, calassault and a galmando, and walked him through how to replicate it. He succeeded. I used it to rip the crap out of Cat Merc, who is arguably a lot better at gun game than I am. The strafe speed thing is a hit detection exploit, deliberate abuse of unintended behavior in game design to gain an unfair advantage. it is especially effective for people with high latency, allowing them to consistently flush the ability to hit them properly. I cannot use the strafe exploit because I use the M/KB, because the wiggle dance is DEPENDENT upon Aim Assist, which allows reticle magnetism to briefly attach to the target and grant you a precious second of firing time on target with each pass, if you time it and fire in bursts, you can literally appear as a gun-game god among the masses. M/KB players cannot enjoy aim assist, it is excluded from our control scheme. Therefore, people who wiggle are vastly more effective against so-called "mouse cheaters." But by all means, blame the controls, claim that strafing isn't broken when it can verifiably be proven broken. Any asshat who bothers to follow my helpful newbie guide will rapidly figure out how to do the exact same thing. So please, go on, keep telling everyone that juking back and forth like an epileptic is a measurement of skill. Keep sitting on that crutch of weirdly-behaving netcode and hit detection and say exploiting it takes skill. By all means. Whatever helps you sleep at night. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H No Context 574	Posted - 2015.05.28 22:33:00 - [525] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: "I'm going to switch to logi because it will be a better slayer." -random tryhard and Aeon Amadi wrote: -I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. Translation: I am going to use whichever suit has the higher base movement speed because the hit detection evasion ability in DUST due to poor hit detection is a crutch I cannot live without! Why if all the plebians can actually HIT me consistently my precious KD rating might suffer badly! Here's a hint kids, Strafe breaking hit detection is very real. i demonstrated the technique to cross, did it to him in a minassault, a galassault, calassault and a galmando, and walked him through how to replicate it. He succeeded. I used it to rip the crap out of Cat Merc, who is arguably a lot better at gun game than I am. The strafe speed thing is a hit detection exploit, deliberate abuse of unintended behavior in game design to gain an unfair advantage. it is especially effective for people with high latency, allowing them to consistently flush the ability to hit them properly. I cannot use the strafe exploit because I use the M/KB, because the wiggle dance is DEPENDENT upon Aim Assist, which allows reticle magnetism to briefly attach to the target and grant you a precious second of firing time on target with each pass, if you time it and fire in bursts, you can literally appear as a gun-game god among the masses. M/KB players cannot enjoy aim assist, it is excluded from our control scheme. Therefore, people who wiggle are vastly more effective against so-called "mouse cheaters." But by all means, blame the controls, claim that strafing isn't broken when it can verifiably be proven broken. Any asshat who bothers to follow my helpful newbie guide will rapidly figure out how to do the exact same thing. So please, go on, keep telling everyone that juking back and forth like an epileptic is a measurement of skill. Keep sitting on that crutch of wierdly-behaving netcode and hit detection and say exploiting it takes skill. By all means. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Well when when wiggling is considered a "valid tactic" in a game there is something wrong. Try playing darts while skipping left and right as fast as you can Click me
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 22:37:00 - [526] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: "I'm going to switch to logi because it will be a better slayer." -random tryhard and Aeon Amadi wrote: -I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. Translation: I am going to use whichever suit has the higher base movement speed because the hit detection evasion ability in DUST due to poor hit detection is a crutch I cannot live without! Why if all the plebians can actually HIT me consistently my precious KD rating might suffer badly! Here's a hint kids, Strafe breaking hit detection is very real. i demonstrated the technique to cross, did it to him in a minassault, a galassault, calassault and a galmando, and walked him through how to replicate it. He succeeded. I used it to rip the crap out of Cat Merc, who is arguably a lot better at gun game than I am. The strafe speed thing is a hit detection exploit, deliberate abuse of unintended behavior in game design to gain an unfair advantage. it is especially effective for people with high latency, allowing them to consistently flush the ability to hit them properly. I cannot use the strafe exploit because I use the M/KB, because the wiggle dance is DEPENDENT upon Aim Assist, which allows reticle magnetism to briefly attach to the target and grant you a precious second of firing time on target with each pass, if you time it and fire in bursts, you can literally appear as a gun-game god among the masses. M/KB players cannot enjoy aim assist, it is excluded from our control scheme. Therefore, people who wiggle are vastly more effective against so-called "mouse cheaters." But by all means, blame the controls, claim that strafing isn't broken when it can verifiably be proven broken. Any asshat who bothers to follow my helpful newbie guide will rapidly figure out how to do the exact same thing. So please, go on, keep telling everyone that juking back and forth like an epileptic is a measurement of skill. Keep sitting on that crutch of wierdly-behaving netcode and hit detection and say exploiting it takes skill. By all means. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Fixing hit detection and implementation of a system that takes weight into account when changing directions is an absolute must, but that doesn't excuse these changes. I would take the former over any changes that could possibly be made to the game, but pushing an entire class into brick tanking because some people do douchey stuff doesn't really fix anything, it just makes them do douchey stuff in other suits. Alert me when there's an announcement about weight being added, I'll be all over it. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 22:58:00 - [527] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: "I'm going to switch to logi because it will be a better slayer." -random tryhard and Aeon Amadi wrote: -I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. Translation: I am going to use whichever suit has the higher base movement speed because the hit detection evasion ability in DUST due to poor hit detection is a crutch I cannot live without! Why if all the plebians can actually HIT me consistently my precious KD rating might suffer badly! Here's a hint kids, Strafe breaking hit detection is very real. i demonstrated the technique to cross, did it to him in a minassault, a galassault, calassault and a galmando, and walked him through how to replicate it. He succeeded. I used it to rip the crap out of Cat Merc, who is arguably a lot better at gun game than I am. The strafe speed thing is a hit detection exploit, deliberate abuse of unintended behavior in game design to gain an unfair advantage. it is especially effective for people with high latency, allowing them to consistently flush the ability to hit them properly. I cannot use the strafe exploit because I use the M/KB, because the wiggle dance is DEPENDENT upon Aim Assist, which allows reticle magnetism to briefly attach to the target and grant you a precious second of firing time on target with each pass, if you time it and fire in bursts, you can literally appear as a gun-game god among the masses. M/KB players cannot enjoy aim assist, it is excluded from our control scheme. Therefore, people who wiggle are vastly more effective against so-called "mouse cheaters." But by all means, blame the controls, claim that strafing isn't broken when it can verifiably be proven broken. Any asshat who bothers to follow my helpful newbie guide will rapidly figure out how to do the exact same thing. So please, go on, keep telling everyone that juking back and forth like an epileptic is a measurement of skill. Keep sitting on that crutch of wierdly-behaving netcode and hit detection and say exploiting it takes skill. By all means. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Fixing hit detection and implementation of a system that takes weight into account when changing directions is an absolute must, but that doesn't excuse these changes. I would take the former over any changes that could possibly be made to the game, but pushing an entire class into brick tanking because some people do douchey stuff doesn't really fix anything, it just makes them do douchey stuff in other suits. Alert me when there's an announcement about weight being added, I'll be all over it. I don't even remotely agree that the proposed rational method needs "excused" but I do whole heartedly agree that fixing hit detection, improving control input time (i.e. removing input lag), and adding an inertia/mass/weight mechanic such that being able to exploit the system like that is no longer possible. I fully advocate a universally applied speed vs HP method regardless, but even without such a method the listed fixes are sorely needed and having them would improve the game mightily. 0.02 ISK CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 23:05:00 - [528] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: The chart itself AFAIK is for illustrative purposes, and I certainly cannot comment on it's details as I did not create it nor have I see specific numbers beyond what it present in the OP, but like I say it's not the chart or the specific numbers I'm invested in or advocating, my sole 'skin in the game' here is to support a rational method be foundationally applied to every role equally. 0.02 ISK I can understand that, but from what I've seen over all of the balance changes since Replication (and you were there too) oversimplification of the process only creates more issues. You have speed running inversely to eHp in this chart. However sprint speed is also effected by stamina and stamina recovery and is a completely separate matter from walking, strafing and backpedaling speed. Further complicating the matter is the eHp stats. But you know all of this, I don't need to lecture you on the details as you know all of them as well as anybody. My point being that if this is to be a foundation on which to build upon, you have to build the whole foundation and not leave out the support structures or the whole thing will collapse. If the goal is to completely rework the way every suit functions based on this model, be it in big ways or small ways, you have to build the whole model before you hamhandedly start slapping suits into their position on the chart. I'm saying 'you' a lot but I don't mean you specifically, I know that you aren't the one doing this. But I'm typing on my phone and my thoughts flow more freely in this format. I hope that if by some miracle they take these thoughts seriously, they also don't fall into the trap of keeping things inverse. Just because one suit at one end has high regen for instance, the opposite end doesn't necessarily have to have the worst. And some things can peak in the middle of the chart and drop on the edges. It's a case by case situation depending on the specific role and a proper balance is more important than a nice visual. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.28 23:08:00 - [529] - Quote My work here is done, going to bed. Later nerds. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.28 23:55:00 - [530] - Quote I was wrong, I got distracted by shinies. Will post more of these as I find them here and there. Heimdallr69 wrote: Already have my slayer logi fit made, just waiting for that speed buff..you obviously didn't pay attention to the part where logis will be faster than assaults..who needs a sidearm? Now I can have links and scanners (Name Redacted) in Skype chat wrote: All I know is that every slayer playing in game for the past 48hours that I've been in squad with, is deciding what logi suit they are about to exploit the ** out of. (Name Redacted) in Skype chat wrote:** I'll be able to go 30-0 as a logi again with no problems but thats not what you want to see out of logistics Yup, dat strafe speed seems to be the common factor here. The words "logis are faster than assaults" and "not wanting to lose strafe speeds" The evidence is mounting that the tryhards are all more concerned with loss of wiggle efficiency than they are about anything else! More evidence to come, and I'm sure it will be (not) shocking! I've never heard anyone saying "golly I sure am glad I could get from one hack point to another in this new codebreaker logi I'm building!" That should be the first clue that something is up. NOW I'm going to bed. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 5	Posted - 2015.05.29 00:08:00 - [531] - Quote I ran scouts until mordu's then I ran nothing but assaults except the time I broke gal logi...call me a tryhard all you want I've been a loyal assault for like 2 years..yeah it's time for me to have some fun and break these suits...I've dealt with assaults being UP and I refuse to go through it again =ƒÿê Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.29 00:19:00 - [532] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I was wrong, I got distracted by shinies. Will post more of these as I find them here and there. Heimdallr69 wrote: Already have my slayer logi fit made, just waiting for that speed buff..you obviously didn't pay attention to the part where logis will be faster than assaults..who needs a sidearm? Now I can have links and scanners (Name Redacted) in Skype chat wrote: All I know is that every slayer playing in game for the past 48hours that I've been in squad with, is deciding what logi suit they are about to exploit the ** out of. (Name Redacted) in Skype chat wrote:** I'll be able to go 30-0 as a logi again with no problems but thats not what you want to see out of logistics Yup, dat strafe speed seems to be the common factor here. The words "logis are faster than assaults" and "not wanting to lose strafe speeds" The evidence is mounting that the tryhards are all more concerned with loss of wiggle efficiency than they are about anything else! More evidence to come, and I'm sure it will be (not) shocking! I've never heard anyone saying "golly I sure am glad I could get from one hack point to another in this new codebreaker logi I'm building!" That should be the first clue that something is up. NOW I'm going to bed. I've played this game for as long as almost anyone you'll find in these forums and I've never been able to do this wiggle dance everyone speaks of. I don't get it. I've logged in and sat in the red line trying to figure it out and have never (as far as I know) pulled it off. I'm not saying that you are mistaken, I trust your word on it, but I for one at least don't want to lose my strafe speed BECAUSE of the wiggle dancers. I already have enough trouble trying to hit them, smacking down my strafe speed is just making me an easier target for them. I know the difference between wiggle dancers and kb/m strafers and both are almost equally irritating, but the dancers take the cake. I don't see punishing people like me doing anything to stop them. If I get internet some time before the changes are implemented I'll happily drop in so it can be explained to me, but once these changes are put in place I seriously doubt that I'll be playing. I have one playstyle that I enjoy and I shouldn't have to be a medic or a skinsuit wearer to play a role kind of close to it. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.29 00:20:00 - [533] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: I ran scouts until mordu's then I ran nothing but assaults except the time I broke gal logi...call me a tryhard all you want I've been a loyal assault for like 2 years..yeah it's time for me to have some fun and break these suits...I've dealt with assaults being UP and I refuse to go through it again =ƒÿê Well said. Damn you insomnia WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 00:25:00 - [534] - Quote This assault speed nerf seems to be just here to appease the bad players. AE. PC 1.0.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 00:39:00 - [535] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: The ***** balance work is done . Final buffset time and lets move to other issues already! **! This. Again. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 00:41:00 - [536] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: This very thread seems to be just here to appease the bad players. FTFY Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 5	Posted - 2015.05.29 00:50:00 - [537] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: This assault speed nerf seems to be just here to appease the bad players. I don't understand where this came from? I don't recall anyone asking for a speed nerf other than the min ass...Yes the logi and mandos needed a speed buff but this is going too far..Reduce the min ass speed and keep the other assaults the same as now and then I'd welcome the logi/mando buff Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Imp Smash molon labe. RUST415 859	Posted - 2015.05.29 00:56:00 - [538] - Quote @Rattati I want to say first off I think it is great what you did for the HP/Speed ratio. I remember the first threads that came out about it and I remember you posting in them that you read them. Very happy to see proactivity. I have a question on how HP/Speed will work in relation to types of HP. Can you break down the difference in speed between the shield based suits and armor based suits? (in relation within their roles-- logis compared to logis. Assault compared to Assault) Or will there be a difference? Can we expect similar base movement speeds from Gal and Cal with Min adjusted up and Amarr adjusted down relatively speaking? Or will the suits all fall pretty much next to eachother?
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.29 01:13:00 - [539] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: I ran scouts until mordu's then I ran nothing but assaults except the time I broke gal logi...call me a tryhard all you want I've been a loyal assault for like 2 years..yeah it's time for me to have some fun and break these suits...I've dealt with assaults being UP and I refuse to go through it again =ƒÿê You are a tryhard......but you have the gun game to back up your assertions....so pretty much anyone who claims you are a bad player has to remember that you ran Carthums on a Caldari Assault back when both really sucked. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 5	Posted - 2015.05.29 01:38:00 - [540] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: I ran scouts until mordu's then I ran nothing but assaults except the time I broke gal logi...call me a tryhard all you want I've been a loyal assault for like 2 years..yeah it's time for me to have some fun and break these suits...I've dealt with assaults being UP and I refuse to go through it again =ƒÿê You are a tryhard......but you have the gun game to back up your assertions....so pretty much anyone who claims you are a bad player has to remember that you ran Carthums on a Caldari Assault back when both really sucked. You remember that? =ƒÿâ Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.29 01:41:00 - [541] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: I ran scouts until mordu's then I ran nothing but assaults except the time I broke gal logi...call me a tryhard all you want I've been a loyal assault for like 2 years..yeah it's time for me to have some fun and break these suits...I've dealt with assaults being UP and I refuse to go through it again =ƒÿê You are a tryhard......but you have the gun game to back up your assertions....so pretty much anyone who claims you are a bad player has to remember that you ran Carthums on a Caldari Assault back when both really sucked. You remember that? =ƒÿâ Of course. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 01:49:00 - [542] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: [...] I cannot use the strafe exploit because I use the M/KB, because the wiggle dance is DEPENDENT upon Aim Assist, which allows reticle magnetism to briefly attach to the target and grant you a precious second of firing time on target with each pass, if you time it and fire in bursts, you can literally appear as a gun-game god among the masses. M/KB players cannot enjoy aim assist, it is excluded from our control scheme. Therefore, people who wiggle are vastly more effective against so-called "mouse cheaters." [...] So glad someone finally put this to light. Hit detection issues are bad in a FPS shooter game. I cannot tell any of you just how frustrating it is to use mouse/keyboard in dust. The break-dance has to go. Know what cannot be known.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 02:56:00 - [543] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Looking at a lot of the discussion and what Rattati has posted so far I do think it's good to correlate Base HP to movement. I would say though that it is critically important to take into account HP, walk speed, sprint speed, stamina, and stamina regeneration in a complete picture and make sure that the way those stats are set the logistics suits and assault suits are best able to fulfill their roles. If walk speed correlates to strafe speed and that's the most important combat movement in people's mind then the assault should probably have the best walk speed. After that take HP to Movement curve and adjust the other stats (sprint speed modifier, stamina, stamina regeneration) so it falls in line. Good idea. Maybe we're looking at mobility backwards. Sprint: Logi > Assault. Movement: Assaults > Logi. Will put together some numbers later today Added Worksheet: Spero's Concept > Google Doc < In essence, an inversion of Ripley Riley's vision (Assaults sprinting from cover to cover or from spawn to frontline). Rather, Assaults maintain current movement speeds and a decreased sprint multiplier to better fit the conceptual Speed/HP tradeoff model. Logis maintain current movement speeds and an increased sprint multiplier to better fit the conceptual Speed/HP tradeoff model. Friendly Reminder: Figures prepared for spitballing purposes only. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 03:22:00 - [544] - Quote I was wondering... Why are we doing this? I mean why is high HP and high mobility/speed a problem? I know that it is currently but why is it mechanically an issue in the first place? I remember when we tried getting kincats moved to high slots and damage mod moved to low slots. This issue of high hp and speed came up. Is there's mechanically a reason why high speed and hp fits are a problem and not high hp and high damage fits? Is there or should there be a curve for damage vs hp?
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.29 03:40:00 - [545] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: I ran scouts until mordu's then I ran nothing but assaults except the time I broke gal logi...call me a tryhard all you want I've been a loyal assault for like 2 years..yeah it's time for me to have some fun and break these suits...I've dealt with assaults being UP and I refuse to go through it again =ƒÿê You are a tryhard......but you have the gun game to back up your assertions....so pretty much anyone who claims you are a bad player has to remember that you ran Carthums on a Caldari Assault back when both really sucked. You remember that? =ƒÿâ I remember that. I also remember ReFlex running a Carthum/shotty combo on a scout back in Codex when all three sucked. That dude was crazy good. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:03:00 - [546] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: In short, frustrated or not, having a cohesive game design that allows for fundamental balance to finally replace the back and forth we've dealt with for years trumps any particular current effects those changes have on you, me, or any specific sub-facet of the game. 0.02 ISK Easy to say. Harder to live with. Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: -I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. How can anyone say this with the massive hit detection issues currently in game ?! Again. Mobility is king in CQC. All the EHP in the world won't matter if they can hit you but you can't hit them. Easy or hard it is an objective reality and we either live with that or live with continued imbalance until the servers burn out. I have yet to see any evidence which indicates there is a viable long term third option. If you're looking, you'll notice that a lot of your main slayers (Heimdallr, Kalante to name two right off the top of my head) are already considering Slayer Logi's because of these changes because the benefits will outweigh the lack of a sidearm/slight EHP differential. I've already given an example as to why. If this is the intended design than I'm all for it but as it stands I'm already looking at the Gallente Logi as being more viable than my Gallente Assault for combat purposes. Even started training myself using a Gallente Assault with no sidearm today. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:14:00 - [547] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: The third option is obvious. Buff the other stuff and take the balance changes slow. Make your buffs, gather data and move on from there. It's hardly a massive operation to tweak a couple numbers later after gathering data. That is literally not able to be an alternative to what I was talking about. Specific changes nerf or buff, to any given aspect can be part of a base method, or can happen absent a base method but in no case are they an alternative to a choice between having a base method or not. I understand whole-heartedly where you're coming from and I agree that we need base methods and foundations, but here are the points of contention with that foundation that need to be seriously considered: Your high-end slayers are telling you that the speed is preferable to EHP and the speed nerf will cause them to go to Slayer Logis as a result. They've proposed the they'd be willing to take an EHP loss in exchange but that isn't being considered as an option.It gives this thread the feeling that it's less open for feedback and more for retrieving praise. That's not an insinuation or tin-foil, it's legitimately what it feels like to some of us because the counter-proposals/compromises aren't being considered or being discredited by other members of the community in favor of what this thread brings to the table. Base methods and foundations are great but the short-term effects are going to cause long-term consequences when everyone starts complaining about the justifiable meta shift and they start wanting Logi's punished for their slayer capability.The foundation is already causing theory-crafting toward messing with sprint-speed values to compensate but it's all abstract - we legitimately don't know what's going to happen and the more major changes we make the more we feel the need to compensate by making even more changes. It's causing a sort of cascade effect. Some of the community is asking for slow, methodical changes, and the answer is that it's not an option. That's unfair. It -is- an option, it's just an option that's not willing to be taken or considered because the benefits of the foundation arguably overshadow the cautious approach. Please reconsider. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:19:00 - [548] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Looking at a lot of the discussion and what Rattati has posted so far I do think it's good to correlate Base HP to movement. I would say though that it is critically important to take into account HP, walk speed, sprint speed, stamina, and stamina regeneration in a complete picture and make sure that the way those stats are set the logistics suits and assault suits are best able to fulfill their roles. If walk speed correlates to strafe speed and that's the most important combat movement in people's mind then the assault should probably have the best walk speed. After that take HP to Movement curve and adjust the other stats (sprint speed modifier, stamina, stamina regeneration) so it falls in line. Good idea. Maybe we're looking at mobility backwards. Sprint: Logi > Assault. Movement: Assaults > Logi. Will put together some numbers later today Added Worksheet: Spero's Concept > Google Doc < In essence, an inversion of Ripley Riley's vision (Assaults sprinting from cover to cover or from spawn to frontline). Rather, Assaults maintain current movement speeds and a decreased sprint multiplier. Logis maintain current movement speeds and an increased sprint multiplier. Friendly Reminder: Figures prepared for spitballing purposes only. .....? I said the exact same thing and you guys said that it was guarantee'd slayer Logis. Maybe I should just get Kain to speak for me from now on? Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:22:00 - [549] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: ... the cautious approach. Correct me where I'm wrong: Movement * Nerf MN Assault base movement speed. * Buff Logi base movement speed. * Buff Commando base movement speed. HP Potential * Nerf Assault base HP. * Buff Commando slot count. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:23:00 - [550] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Looking at a lot of the discussion and what Rattati has posted so far I do think it's good to correlate Base HP to movement. I would say though that it is critically important to take into account HP, walk speed, sprint speed, stamina, and stamina regeneration in a complete picture and make sure that the way those stats are set the logistics suits and assault suits are best able to fulfill their roles. If walk speed correlates to strafe speed and that's the most important combat movement in people's mind then the assault should probably have the best walk speed. After that take HP to Movement curve and adjust the other stats (sprint speed modifier, stamina, stamina regeneration) so it falls in line. Good idea. Maybe we're looking at mobility backwards. Sprint: Logi > Assault. Movement: Assaults > Logi. Will put together some numbers later today Added Worksheet: Spero's Concept > Google Doc < In essence, an inversion of Ripley Riley's vision (Assaults sprinting from cover to cover or from spawn to frontline). Rather, Assaults maintain current movement speeds and a decreased sprint multiplier. Logis maintain current movement speeds and an increased sprint multiplier. Friendly Reminder: Figures prepared for spitballing purposes only. .....? I said the exact same thing and you guys said that it was guarantee'd slayer Logis. Maybe I should just get Kain to speak for me from now on? Honestly, I only read a small percentage of what people write if they're throwing a fit. Usually the first line of each paragraph. If you recommended this, I missed it. What I mostly saw was "Nerf MN Assault, but don't touch my Gal Assault". Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:24:00 - [551] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Looking at a lot of the discussion and what Rattati has posted so far I do think it's good to correlate Base HP to movement. I would say though that it is critically important to take into account HP, walk speed, sprint speed, stamina, and stamina regeneration in a complete picture and make sure that the way those stats are set the logistics suits and assault suits are best able to fulfill their roles. If walk speed correlates to strafe speed and that's the most important combat movement in people's mind then the assault should probably have the best walk speed. After that take HP to Movement curve and adjust the other stats (sprint speed modifier, stamina, stamina regeneration) so it falls in line. Good idea. Maybe we're looking at mobility backwards. Sprint: Logi > Assault. Movement: Assaults > Logi. Will put together some numbers later today Added Worksheet: Spero's Concept > Google Doc < In essence, an inversion of Ripley Riley's vision (Assaults sprinting from cover to cover or from spawn to frontline). Rather, Assaults maintain current movement speeds and a decreased sprint multiplier. Logis maintain current movement speeds and an increased sprint multiplier. Friendly Reminder: Figures prepared for spitballing purposes only. .....? I said the exact same thing and you guys said that it was guarantee'd slayer Logis. Maybe I should just get Kain to speak for me from now on? Honestly, I only read a small percentage of what people write if they're throwing a fit. Usually the first line of each paragraph. If you recommended this, I missed it. What I mostly saw was "nerf MN Assault. Don't touch my Gal Assault". And you guys wonder why I'm argumentative and confrontational. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:28:00 - [552] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: And you guys wonder why I'm argumentative and confrontational. So it's our fault that you throw fits and get yourself ignored. Got it. But now that you're head is clear ... may I ask? Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: ... the cautious approach. Correct me where I'm wrong: Movement * Nerf MN Assault base movement speed. * Buff Logi base movement speed. * Buff Commando base movement speed. HP Potential * Nerf Assault base HP. * Buff Commando slot count. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:33:00 - [553] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: And you guys wonder why I'm argumentative and confrontational. So it's our fault that you throw fits and get yourself ignored. Got it. But now that your head is clear ... may I ask? Ask what? Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:34:00 - [554] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: And you guys wonder why I'm argumentative and confrontational. So it's our fault that you throw fits and get yourself ignored. Got it. But now that your head is clear ... may I ask? Ask what? In your response to Cross, you say "take the cautious approach" ... please elaborate. What do you have in mind? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:39:00 - [555] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: And you guys wonder why I'm argumentative and confrontational. So it's our fault that you throw fits and get yourself ignored. Got it. But now that your head is clear ... may I ask? Ask what? In your response to Cross, you say "take the cautious approach" ... please elaborate. What do you have in mind? Ah. That. Sorry, only read the first part of your post. I dunno, #stuffI'vealreadysaid. Like, buffing Commandos/Logis first and seeing how that works before nerfing Assaults. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:49:00 - [556] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I dunno Added "Not Aeon's Idea": > Google Doc < * Decrease Assault base HP by 25% * Decrease MN Assault base movement from 5.3 to 5.2 * Set Logi base movement / sprint = Assault base movement / sprint Spitballing, of course. What do you think? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:51:00 - [557] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: I mean why is high HP and high mobility/speed a problem? If this logic is used I want a proportionately similar increase to speed on my fatsuits. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.05.29 05:01:00 - [558] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Looking at a lot of the discussion and what Rattati has posted so far I do think it's good to correlate Base HP to movement. I would say though that it is critically important to take into account HP, walk speed, sprint speed, stamina, and stamina regeneration in a complete picture and make sure that the way those stats are set the logistics suits and assault suits are best able to fulfill their roles. If walk speed correlates to strafe speed and that's the most important combat movement in people's mind then the assault should probably have the best walk speed. After that take HP to Movement curve and adjust the other stats (sprint speed modifier, stamina, stamina regeneration) so it falls in line. Good idea. Maybe we're looking at mobility backwards. Sprint: Logi > Assault. Movement: Assaults > Logi. Will put together some numbers later today Added Worksheet: Spero's Concept > Google Doc < In essence, an inversion of Ripley Riley's vision (Assaults sprinting from cover to cover or from spawn to frontline). Rather, Assaults maintain current movement speeds and a decreased sprint multiplier. Logis maintain current movement speeds and an increased sprint multiplier. Friendly Reminder: Figures prepared for spitballing purposes only. I think this may be missing the full picture though. We need to look at this from the perspective of using stamina pool and stamina recovery as well. It could very well be that the assault could have higher stats when it comes to walk speed and sprint but pay for these stats in its stamina pool and regeneration. The effect could be an assault moves faster over say 50m but the logi moves faster over 100m. Just spit balling here. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.05.29 05:01:00 - [559] - Quote The consensus in this thread is that speed > ehp. That's not a theorycrafting delusion, it's a conclusion drawn from the considerable experience of many players. That little inequality above is a rock solid indication that the speed-ehp curve is not linear. What shape is it? What variables are we excluding? What is the shape of the scans-ehp curve, or the scans-ehp-speed surface? Which of our assumptions are shakey? Might as well start developing using a ouija board if we're gonna continue pulling relationships out of our collective ass. Uncovering the real relationships governing the dynamics of the game is a non-trivial job for a team of competent research scientists. Give it up now peeps. What can we do? Something far more bread-and-butter: Define the suit roles first and work forward from those role definitions. PSN: RationalSpark
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 05:21:00 - [560] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I dunno Added "Not Aeon's Idea": > Google Doc < * Decrease Assault base HP by 25% * Decrease MN Assault base movement from 5.3 to 5.2 * Set Logi base movement / sprint = Assault base movement / sprint Spitballing, of course. What do you think? Tweaked the Idea above to better fit the curve ... * Assault Base HP: -25% * MN Assault Base Movement: 5.30 ---> 5.00 (-5.7%) * GA Assault Base Movement: 5.00 ---> 4.85 (-3%) * CA Assault Base Movement: 5.00 ---> 4.85 (-3%) * AM Assault Base Movement: 4.80 ---> 4.70 (-2.1%) * MN Logi Base Movement: 5.00 ---> 5.20 (+4%) * GA Logi Base Movement: 4.70 ---> 5.00 (+6.4%) * CA Logi Base Movement: 4.70 ---> 5.00 (+6.4%) * AM Logi Base Movement: 4.55 ---> 4.80 (+5.5%) * No changes to Sprint Multipliers Assumptions Armor/Shield Regen: Assault > Logi > Scout Stamina Pool: Scout > Assault > Logi Stamina Regen: Scout > Assault > Logi Thoughts? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 05:25:00 - [561] - Quote Adipem, I have to commend you on all the work you're doing making these models for each argument. Thank you. Concerning the most recent edition, what about a bricked out version? 25% less HP on base stats is only so much. In the end if we still have break-dancing assaults that go from 800 to 700 eHP it will all be for nothing. Know what cannot be known.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 05:32:00 - [562] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Adipem, I have to commend you on all the work you're doing making these models for each argument. Thank you. Concerning the most recent edition, what about a bricked out version? 25% less HP on base stats is only so much. In the end if we still have break-dancing assaults that have 60 less eHP it will all be for nothing. Thanks! Looks like Cyrus is making some headway over at protofits. I think we'll be able to stress test these concepts more effectively (and meaningfully) once his sandbox is ready for us. Meanwhile, my goal is to outline very broad, basic frameworks to illustrate the various approaches proposed so far ... lots of fundamentally different opinions on "how to" :-) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 05:34:00 - [563] - Quote We're lucky to have people like him and yourself. That's about all I can say, really. Heading off for the night. Know what cannot be known.
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 5	Posted - 2015.05.29 06:10:00 - [564] - Quote Adi did you know gal logi reps at 5 and gal ass 4.5? Sorry I'm doped up atm (surgery) I didn't know that made a fit earlier can you confirm? Might be to doped up atm Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 06:14:00 - [565] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: And you guys wonder why I'm argumentative and confrontational. So it's our fault that you throw fits and get yourself ignored. Got it. But now that your head is clear ... may I ask? Ask what? In your response to Cross, you say "take the cautious approach" ... please elaborate. What do you have in mind? Ah. That. Sorry, only read the first part of your post. I dunno, #stuffI'vealreadysaid. Like, buffing Commandos/Logis first and seeing how that works before nerfing Assaults. As I've said every time it comes up the only "skin in the game" I have is that the ratio itself be maintained as a game wide foundation (or if a case is solidly built against it that the ratio be abandoned as a game wide thing when it comes to balancing roles, mods, races et al). I have no stake whatsoever in what those ratios are or which role falls where within them so long as the ratios are applied universally and equally. Without a universal and equal application of foundational vision (be it this method or another) that applies to all roles rather than cherry picks a few things, balance becomes either a bad zero sum game or a crapshoot and we stay in the same rut we've been in for years. To get more specific in reference to one of your prior posts, if speed, especially even a single metric of speed (be that strafe/move, sprint, or other) is enough to outweigh dps potential and raw HP then that to me screams that there is a large and fundamental problem. In the context of the ratio method, if speed really is this huge of a factor then the amount of eHP set to counter balance it needs to be scaled up accordingly until it is no longer meaningless and dismissible and *the same ratio - whatever that may be - needs to be applied to all roles*. Make heavies fly like hot air balloons, scouts sparkle like unicorns, assaults have 1k HP per 1m of sprint speed, and logi slower than commandos for all I care, so long as there is a solid and universally applied method so that we have a context to actually and finally get some balance build rather than just the latest iteration of "king of the hill" FotM chasing. Having one role/fit be "the thing" is bad balance it doesn't matter if that's the Cal Logi, the Amarr Sent, the Gal Scout, or the Min Assault. One role, or even worse one racial sub role, or still worse one fit type, being "the thing" is bad balance and always needs to die in fire. And without a consistent universal method it is harder to see that coming, takes longer to see it when it's present, and is an impediment to finding an effective solution that isn't just "nerf it into the ground" which is IMO never the ideal way to redress something being OP. If the major concern here is "don't touch any assault numbers except maybe the min assault" then sure fine, touch none of them and simply balance the stats on all the other suits around the assault baseline, doesn't bother me in the least, just maintain a consistent and even handed approach game wide, because failing to do that is quite simply failing the health and quality of the game. Lack of consistent vision is a large part of what got us into this mess as we've both pointed out more than once, we've had years of it, time to give up on half measures and special cases, we need a consistent method or we're not going to get out of the messes we've been dealing with. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 06:31:00 - [566] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I dunno Added "Not Aeon's Idea": > Google Doc < * Decrease Assault base HP by 25% * Decrease MN Assault base movement from 5.3 to 5.2 * Set Logi base movement / sprint = Assault base movement / sprint Spitballing, of course. What do you think? Tweaked the Idea above to better fit the curve ... * Assault Base HP: -25% * MN Assault Base Movement: 5.30 ---> 5.00 (-5.7%) * GA Assault Base Movement: 5.00 ---> 4.85 (-3%) * CA Assault Base Movement: 5.00 ---> 4.85 (-3%) * AM Assault Base Movement: 4.80 ---> 4.70 (-2.1%) * MN Logi Base Movement: 5.00 ---> 5.20 (+4%) * GA Logi Base Movement: 4.70 ---> 5.00 (+6.4%) * CA Logi Base Movement: 4.70 ---> 5.00 (+6.4%) * AM Logi Base Movement: 4.55 ---> 4.80 (+5.5%) * No changes to Sprint Multipliers Assumptions Armor/Shield Regen: Assault > Logi > Scout Stamina Pool: Scout > Assault > Logi Stamina Regen: Scout > Assault > Logi Thoughts? Maybe it's the migraine causing my brain to fail but having three roles using one consistent ratio/method to define them all (thus having balance) cannot yield those hierarchical results, can it? If we convert your assumptions section into a simple numeric comparison by rank value we get Armor/Shield Regen: 3 pts Assault > 2 pts Logi > 1pt Scout Stamina Pool: 3pts Scout > 2pts Assault > 1pt Logi Stamina Regen: 3pts Scout > 2pts Assault > 1pt Logi Net results: Scout 8pts > Assault 7pts > Logi 4pts That's not a consistently applied ratio with two out of the three listed roles doubling (or nearly doubling) the third role. No matter what role is in that third slot we're failing the method and thus failing balance. This situation gets even worse if there other roles added at or below the 4 pt threshold (or lower) or frankly just the more roles that are added at all because whether low or high added roles (which clearly do exist in the game) simply push the outliers further out be that UP or OP (or worst, cases of both). Is there some way in which I have misapplied the conceptual aspects here? CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.29 07:37:00 - [567] - Quote What I'm seeing is a lot of asspulls to justify not setting an in-game baseline standard that can be adjusted upward or downward as a whole. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 07:47:00 - [568] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: So it's our fault that you throw fits and get yourself ignored. Got it. But now that your head is clear ... may I ask? Ask what? In your response to Cross, you say "take the cautious approach" ... please elaborate. What do you have in mind? Ah. That. Sorry, only read the first part of your post. I dunno, #stuffI'vealreadysaid. Like, buffing Commandos/Logis first and seeing how that works before nerfing Assaults. As I've said every time it comes up the only "skin in the game" I have is that the ratio itself be maintained as a game wide foundation (or if a case is solidly built against it that the ratio be abandoned as a game wide thing when it comes to balancing roles, mods, races et al). I have no stake whatsoever in what those ratios are or which role falls where within them so long as the ratios are applied universally and equally. Without a universal and equal application of foundational vision (be it this method or another) that applies to all roles rather than cherry picks a few things, balance becomes either a bad zero sum game or a crapshoot and we stay in the same rut we've been in for years. To get more specific in reference to one of your prior posts, if speed, especially even a single metric of speed (be that strafe/move, sprint, or other) is enough to outweigh dps potential and raw HP then that to me screams that there is a large and fundamental problem. In the context of the ratio method, if speed really is this huge of a factor then the amount of eHP set to counter balance it needs to be scaled up accordingly until it is no longer meaningless and dismissible and *the same ratio - whatever that may be - needs to be applied to all roles. Make heavies fly like hot air balloons, scouts sparkle like unicorns, assaults have 1k HP per 1m of sprint speed, and logi slower than commandos for all I care, so long as there is a solid and universally applied method so that we have a context to actually and finally get some balance build rather than just the latest iteration of "king of the hill" FotM chasing. Having one role/fit be "the thing" is bad balance it doesn't matter if that's the Cal Logi, the Amarr Sent, the Gal Scout, or the Min Assault. One role, or even worse one racial sub role, or still worse one fit type, being "the thing" is bad balance and always needs to die in fire. And without a consistent universal method it is harder to see that coming, takes longer to see it when it's present, and is an impediment to finding an effective solution that isn't just "nerf it into the ground" which is IMO never the ideal way to redress something being OP. If the major concern here is "don't touch any assault numbers except maybe the min assault" then sure fine, touch none of them and simply balance the stats on all the other suits around the assault baseline, doesn't bother me in the least, just maintain a consistent and even handed approach game wide, because failing to do that is quite simply failing the health and quality of the game. Lack of consistent vision is a large part of what got us into this mess as we've both pointed out more than once, we've had years of it, time to give up on half measures and special cases, we need a consistent method or we're not going to get out of the messes we've been dealing with. You're hearing yourself right? The entire balancing act that exists, that is the product of all the balance/rebalance/nerf/buff of the last several years, which is pretty damn close to being done* is why I've been so adamant about NOT retooling slots or progression, NOT rewriting all the bonusing just enhancing it, NOT making anything but some basic stat buffs for so long. The game overall, until recent "fixes" pooched the matchmaking and connections, feels really good balance-wise, inter-frame combat-wise. Its so close but theres the continuous effort to keep rewriting things far more or beyond whats needed and in doing so constantly having to rewrite other things endlessly. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.29 08:02:00 - [569] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: The entire balancing act that exists, that is the product of all the balance/rebalance/nerf/buff of the last several years, which is pretty damn close to being done ElOperator I can respect most of your opinions, but the entire post you made, especially THIS is either the most naive, or the most DELIBERATELY self-serving post I have EVER seen you make. The balance isn't even close to done. Progression is only balanced if you think that new players are properly intended as stat padding gunfodder. We still have no true balance between shields and armor. It's close but nowhere near resolved. AV/V is COMPLETELY UNBALANCED. The suits do not have equal urutility within their class. The classes do not have equal utility with each other. The weapons are completely segregated by utility. If balance was even close to extant all of them would be used more or less equaly. And the balance you say is almost there is A revolving door of jacked up and screwed. What rattati proposes is to set a baseline, so it can actually be determined what the value ratio between speed and HP actually is. So long as the wiggle strafe is considered a viable tactic because it breaks hit detection, wedwe do not, and NEVER WILL be able to balance ANYTHING. Every single post telling rattati no has been the most thinly veiled cover for self interest from people who want their top fit to remain the top fit AT ALL COST. Welcome to the meta tree shaking again. Figure it out and try to help make progress because "this far and no farther" battle cries from people who enjoy a position of ability to at-will trash the majority of the playerbase through use of abundant resources and near unlimited ability to casually drop proto everything gets rapidly old and uninspiring. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2015.05.29 08:47:00 - [570] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Stuff You left out HP Pool and Movement Speed, and you are overvaluing Stamina Pool and Stamina Regen. (No module will give you +0.45 movement speed but 1 module will give +100% Stamina AND +100% Stamina Regen.) Besides if you are going to start comparing the value different suits stats you'll need a baseline and then assign a value to each attribute (module slot per benefit would be a decent enough start since the different modules already have an assign value by CCP), that way you can calculate the combined stats of a suit as a single value. (Though it will be incomplete since there isn't an assigned value for high/low to eq and/or weapon slot conversions.)

Edgar Reinhart Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 102	Posted - 2015.05.29 08:58:00 - [571] - Quote OK so coming late to this after everyone has already had enough of it. Also, as I'm sure I'm about to find out, don't really know what's going on and have no grasp of maths. Having said that if people are worried about the gap between Scouts , Assaults, Slayer-Logis etc where does this put the basic frames. (I know there is a strong feeling of get rid but.......) If they had a second EQ slot and cost less than the specialised suits (no bonus') could they be the suit to fit this role? It seems like that should be their place (If any) in all of this anyway???

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.29 09:45:00 - [572] - Quote When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. We can have dynamic strafe speeds as well, so assault can be slower than logi, sprint faster, and still have superior strafe speed. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.29 09:56:00 - [573] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. We can have dynamic strafe speeds as well, so assault can be slower than logi, sprint faster, and still have superior strafe speed. This is going to exacerbate the extant problem,sir. I respectfully request that you not actively provide avenues for people to exploit rhe hit detection in the game. This is first, last and all reasons in between why strafing is the most important consideration. Heimdallr69 copped to as much when I called them out on it. All of the others who are crying about the change have studiously ignored my commentary. I have repeatedly tried to bring this to light, as it is easy to use and provably effective. The fact that thos is the primary and most successful "tactic" it shows that strafe speed is a problem. Being rewarded for standing in the open and juking back and forth two meters rapidly is quite frankly nonsensical, especially when it is MOST effective within the optimal ranges of the most destructive CQC weapons in the game. This is how a calassault duels a heavy and doesn't take more than a quarter of their shields while utterly destroying his opponent at 20m versus a boundless HMG. This is not "skill" it is a mechanical failure on the part of either the client or the server. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.29 09:57:00 - [574] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. We can have dynamic strafe speeds as well, so assault can be slower than logi, sprint faster, and still have superior strafe speed. Please nerf wigglewiggle. Please nerf it hard I want to swim in a saline ocean of tears. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.29 10:20:00 - [575] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. We can have dynamic strafe speeds as well, so assault can be slower than logi, sprint faster, and still have superior strafe speed. This is going to exacerbate the extant problem, sir. I respectfully request that you not actively provide avenues for people to exploit the hit detection in the game. This is first, last and all reasons in between why strafing is the most important consideration. Heimdallr69 copped to as much when I called them out on it. All of the others who are crying about the change have studiously ignored my commentary. I have repeatedly tried to bring this to light, as it is easy to use and provably effective. The fact that this is the primary and most successful "tactic" it shows that strafe speed is a problem. Being rewarded for standing in the open and juking back and forth two meters rapidly is quite frankly nonsensical, especially when it is MOST effective within the optimal ranges of the most destructive CQC weapons in the game. This is how a calassault duels a heavy and doesn't take more than a quarter of their shields while utterly destroying his opponent at 20m versus a boundless HMG. This is not "skill" it is a mechanical failure on the part of either the client or the server. Nono, it just means, I have the means to always have assault and scouts have the highest strafe speed, regardless of walking/running speeds. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 923	Posted - 2015.05.29 10:35:00 - [576] - Quote Have you considered a small hp nerf plus a small speed nerf (smaller than proposed) as a compromise for getting assaults onto the hp/speed curve? Since there's lots of opposition to speed nerfs.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.05.29 10:38:00 - [577] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Nono, it just means, I have the means to always have assault and scouts have the highest strafe speed, regardless of walking/running speeds. Why do you think the Assault needs greater walking or strafe speed? As Breaking said standing in the open and wiggling around is not a viable strategy, nor should it ever be encouraged. Faster sprint speed is significantly more suitable for the Assault Class. Since Assaults need to be on the front lines as often as possible and Logistics simply cannot use their equipment while sprinting. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.29 10:46:00 - [578] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. We can have dynamic strafe speeds as well, so assault can be slower than logi, sprint faster, and still have superior strafe speed. This is going to exacerbate the extant problem, sir. I respectfully request that you not actively provide avenues for people to exploit the hit detection in the game. This is first, last and all reasons in between why strafing is the most important consideration. Heimdallr69 copped to as much when I called them out on it. All of the others who are crying about the change have studiously ignored my commentary. I have repeatedly tried to bring this to light, as it is easy to use and provably effective. The fact that this is the primary and most successful "tactic" it shows that strafe speed is a problem. Being rewarded for standing in the open and juking back and forth two meters rapidly is quite frankly nonsensical, especially when it is MOST effective within the optimal ranges of the most destructive CQC weapons in the game. This is how a calassault duels a heavy and doesn't take more than a quarter of their shields while utterly destroying his opponent at 20m versus a boundless HMG. This is not "skill" it is a mechanical failure on the part of either the client or the server. Nono, it just means, I have the means to always have assault and scouts have the highest strafe speed, regardless of walking/running speeds. Sorry if this is a hot button for me but the primary reason I don't play a lot is the frequency of which my gun does not put damage onto tsrgets. CCentered on my reticle or ADS sight. Makes the game more unplayable than the damn slideshow that happens when you get too close to a heavy lag player WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 10:52:00 - [579] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. We can have dynamic strafe speeds as well, so assault can be slower than logi, sprint faster, and still have superior strafe speed. This is going to exacerbate the extant problem, sir. I respectfully request that you not actively provide avenues for people to exploit the hit detection in the game. This is first, last and all reasons in between why strafing is the most important consideration. Heimdallr69 copped to as much when I called them out on it. All of the others who are crying about the change have studiously ignored my commentary. I have repeatedly tried to bring this to light, as it is easy to use and provably effective. The fact that this is the primary and most successful "tactic" it shows that strafe speed is a problem. Being rewarded for standing in the open and juking back and forth two meters rapidly is quite frankly nonsensical, especially when it is MOST effective within the optimal ranges of the most destructive CQC weapons in the game. This is how a calassault duels a heavy and doesn't take more than a quarter of their shields while utterly destroying his opponent at 20m versus a boundless HMG. This is not "skill" it is a mechanical failure on the part of either the client or the server. i killed two proto sentinels yesterday at 20m with an exile lmao. of course i had 639 armor and 4 complex damage mods... still though lmao. and then i tried a a 634 shield hp 9.18m/s sprint speed cal assault... the min assaults nearly crapped themselves when i started running circles around them and they couldnt outrun me. but the min assault is the worst offender of strafing because theyll use ACR... they have twice as much ammo as they need to kill anyone, which becomes an issue when poor hit detection waste most of your clip trying to kill them, the min dont suffer as much from it.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 10:59:00 - [580] - Quote True Adamance wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Nono, it just means, I have the means to always have assault and scouts have the highest strafe speed, regardless of walking/running speeds. Why do you think the Assault needs greater walking or strafe speed? As Breaking said standing in the open and wiggling around is not a viable strategy, nor should it ever be encouraged. Faster sprint speed is significantly more suitable for the Assault Class. Since Assaults need to be on the front lines as often as possible and Logistics simply cannot use their equipment while sprinting. quake and unreal tournament... only games i can think of where strafing was actively designed to be part of skilled combat. however im not sure if strafing is the problem as much as i think there are still mechanical and code issues that should be worked out. remember when we weapon damage kept getting increased before hit detection got improved two years ago? right after that TTK dropped through the floor and everyone said the game felt too "campy" after. sure we need to address the strafing issue, but i hope we havent stopped looking for the root cause of poor hit detection

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 11:19:00 - [581] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Nono, it just means, I have the means to always have assault and scouts have the highest strafe speed, regardless of walking/running speeds. Brekaing Stuff, True Adamance, i think you guys are reacting a little harsh to this post. As i understand it, not matter how fast or slow we have actual strafe and sprinting, relatively Scouts will always be the fasterst, followed by assaults, logis, commandos then setinels. I think theres a better way to tackle the wiggle wiggle dance beside down grading and downgrading movement. Like the MInsetinel, we've seen nomatter how slow the base speed of a suit is, it can be offset by stacking kin cats. e.g. Wide hipfire dispersion while moving, so you can still dance but lose almost all hope of landing hits. Something creative. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2015.05.29 11:21:00 - [582] - Quote No aim assist while hip firing? :-)
jade gamester Vengeance Unbound RUST415 314	Posted - 2015.05.29 11:35:00 - [583] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. We can have dynamic strafe speeds as well, so assault can be slower than logi, sprint faster, and still have superior strafe speed. why should strafe be thing in a fps.... I mean in real life you don't see guys going left and right like lunatics Will the real vu please stand up o7
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.29 11:35:00 - [584] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Nono, it just means, I have the means to always have assault and scouts have the highest strafe speed, regardless of walking/running speeds. Brekaing Stuff, True Adamance, i think you guys are reacting a little harsh to this post. As i understand it, not matter how fast or slow we have actual strafe and sprinting, relatively Scouts will always be the fasterst, followed by assaults, logis, commandos then setinels. I think theres a better way to tackle the wiggle wiggle dance beside down grading and downgrading movement. Like the MInsetinel, we've seen nomatter how slow the base speed of a suit is, it can be offset by stacking kin cats. e.g. Wide hipfire dispersion while moving, so you can still dance but lose almost all hope of landing hits. Something creative. There's literally nothing I am able to do about scouts who do anything other than run in straight lines. I don't bother doing anything other than wriying off whatever fit I'm in as soon as a scout hits 15m. it's not even worth commenting on or complaining about. Because it's not the scout causing the problem by himself WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 12:27:00 - [585] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: [quote=Tesfa Alem] Edit: and for the LAST TIME TESFA, Kincats DO NOT assist strafe speed. They add to sprinting speed ONLY. Strafing is a function of BASE MOVEMENT SPEED. It is a flat 90% of base movement speed. verbal abuse..... Joking aside not directly they dont. Indirectly, simply by not equiping plates and biotics to level 5 means you can wiggle wiggle alot better than than most players. Just an example, a cal scout with no plates and biotics level 5 has a 8% faster base speed than a identical cal scout with no biotics and a single basic plate ( 5% + plate penalty). A Speed tanked heavy suit has something like 13% more base movement speed than a heavy with two adv plates and armor rep, let alone the complex plated brick tanks. That difference could go as high as 20% if you compare two amarr heavies, one with no plates + bitoics to level 5 to three complex plates. Factor in the speed differences between classes and races, sprinting ability escpecially among keyboard and mouse users, and man does it add up. Your arent going to be able to outwiggle somebody who has less tank than you, and thier kincats speed boost mean they choose when to engage. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 13:16:00 - [586] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Stuff Is there some way in which I have misapplied the conceptual aspects here? Possibly, yes, but only it relates to your point system illustration. If each characteristic were equally weighted against the next, and all characteristics were being tallied for simultaneous evaluation, then an equal-point distribution system would make alot of sense. But all characteristics do not share a 1:1 relationship, the ability to enhance characterstics do not share a 1:1 relationship, and not all characteristics are being simultaneously evaluated. (Hope that makes sense ... if not, I can reword). Observation At the most fundamental level, the attributes which affect survivability by greatest degree are Base Movement and Base HP. Units which are able to simultaneously achieve high values of both become FoTM. It isn't just about mobility or MN Scouts would be FoTM; it isn't just about HP or AM Sentinels would be FoTM. Speed is indeed more heavily weighted than HP, but FoTM still requires high values of both. If a tradeoff model between HP and Speed existed, units would be less readily able to achieve high values of both. Opinion In my personal opinion, we should move forward with a tradeoff model between the primary attributes Base Movement and Base HP. As Rattati has suggested, doing so would give us a solid, rational foundation to work from. As needed, we can tweak whatever other secondary attributes are on the table (i.e. sprint multipliers, stamina stats, regen stats, etc) to safeguard against role bleed. We don't want another round of Logis or Scouts out-assaulting Assaults, so Assaults very well may end up with more "points" in secondary attributes than Logis and Scouts. In my opinion, this is absolutely OK. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 13:23:00 - [587] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Joking aside not directly they dont. Indirectly, simply by not equiping plates and biotics to level 5 means you can wiggle wiggle alot better than than most players. If your wiggling involves sprinting, then you have a point. But to the best of my knowledge, no passive skill or module increases base movement speed. And strafe speed is derived directly from base movement speed. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 13:34:00 - [588] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. I believe you're correct. Though it is worth pointing out that not all assaults are of like mind; as I understand it, Ripley Riley's thinking is the polar opposite of the thinking above. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H No Context 578	Posted - 2015.05.29 13:50:00 - [589] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. I believe you're correct. Though it is worth pointing out that not all assaults are of like mind; as I understand it, Ripley Riley's thinking is the polar opposite of the thinking above: Ripley Riley wrote: I would like to suggest my own twist on this logi movement increase + assault movement decrease... allow assaults to keep our sprint speeds. Assaults storm the point. That's our job: push the objective, fight, and subsequently die. We need that sprint speed to rush forward. Our walk/strafe can be nerfed if that absolutely has to be done, but leave sprint intact. Logis get a buff while the assault role's purpose is preserved. Now you see a difference between an assault who only wishes to pad their kdr and an assault who want to take objectives. Click me
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 14:10:00 - [590] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: As I've said every time it comes up the only "skin in the game" I have is that the ratio itself be maintained as a game wide foundation (or if a case is solidly built against it that the ratio be abandoned as a game wide thing when it comes to balancing roles, mods, races et al). I have no stake whatsoever in what those ratios are or which role falls where within them so long as the ratios are applied universally and equally. Without a universal and equal application of foundational vision (be it this method or another) that applies to all roles rather than cherry picks a few things, balance becomes either a bad zero sum game or a crapshoot and we stay in the same rut we've been in for years. -continued- [formatting is off because I wrote this in notepad] Took me a few reads to fully understand what you're saying but I think I've got a rudimentary understanding of it. You want balanced role, mods, races and if a case be made to go against a foundation or design that it be solidly, logically built as a justifiable reason to go against the base methods. Without an equal application of foundational vision that applies to everything, you feel that the balancing act becomes a shot in the dark at what works. I don't feel this is the case because we have done some pretty awesome stuff with balance without trying to have everything on a curve or having trade-offs, and trying to adhere to that may work logically and mathematically but a video game isn't all about logic or math, but sometimes how something -feels- You feel as though speed being enough to outweigh DPS potential and raw HP is a fundamental problem. I feel that this stems from different views on what Assaults actually are designed for, which is a consequence of it not having a pre-determined role. It's abstract and left to interpretation, but neither of our interpretations are necessarily wrong and they shouldn't be viewed as wrong. This has always been the case but it's not something we can fix. Hit detection issues are and have always been prevailant and yes, it's something we take advantage of -because- it is viable and is a fundamental part of speed tanking. There is an entire game skill dedicated to this, its nothing new, Regnyum has a video on strafing tactics and a lot of high-end slayers are known for their ability to strafe. Are you insinuating that we should work to ensure strafing is -NOT- a viable tactic as a whole? If so, I'm okay with that, but it needs to apply to everyone, not just Assaults. It needs to apply to Logis and Scouts as well. I feel as though your obsession with a base method and a foundation is blinding you to the needs and desires of your community. Yes, we understand hit detection is an issue. Yes, we understand that strafing is a problem. Yes, we know that without strafing, we're entirely reliant on EHP. We also understand that many in the community dislike this - but it is what part of the game's entire culture is founded on. As previously stated, if it is an issue, than it needs to be quashed across the entire spectrum, not just with Assaults. I understand and agree with your sentiment toward "The thing" but this isn't an effort to make Assaults "the thing" it's an effort to keep Assaults a viable playstyle that, without a unique and applicable role, has largely been associated with slayer-ship. Your community is asking to retain the things we value most with the role that we have carved the Assault into. The values that were designed to pull us from other roles into the Assault -because- we were using other roles for what we desired to do (and will continue to do so, even if that role is with the Logistics). It's not "don't touch any Assault numbers except the min assault", I'm not that obtuse, I'm saying that we want the Assaults to retain their functionality and the role that we basically had to make ourselves because they don't really have one that's unique to them. The proposal was to hit their speed. We said that wasn't in our favor because we need speed. The proposal shifted to changing sprint speed. We said that wasn't in our favor because movement/strafe speed is more valuable than sprint speed because we are combatants - we don't need help getting TO the battle, we need help surviving it in the first place. Now we are being told that our desire for that is a fundamental problem... What can we do to make a happy compromise, here? What way can we retain what we desire and need to adhere to our chosen specialization without moving/speccing into another suit while also going with the desire for a consistent method? Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)

thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 327	Posted - 2015.05.29 14:26:00 - [591] - Quote jade gamester wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. We can have dynamic strafe speeds as well, so assault can be slower than logi, sprint faster, and still have superior strafe speed. why should strafe be thing in a fps.... I mean in real life you don't see guys going left and right like lunatics We can't get in the prone, we don't have real air support, and we don't have artillery either. Thor's Emporium
Mr.Pepe Le Pew Art.of.Death 134	Posted - 2015.05.29 14:30:00 - [592] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. We can have dynamic strafe speeds as well, so assault can be slower than logi, sprint faster, and still have superior strafe speed. Rattati, The current sprint speed of any assault suit is not broken. Why fix something that is not broken? The moment you decrease sprint and increase strafing speed, you'll see DUST as the game where you have to shake and wiggle rather than look for cover. It's gonna look silly. Remember the cinderella scans? Well, this is gonna be dancing with the stars, DUST 514 edition. Put on some salsa music and go shake that a$$. Rather than focus on the sprint speeds of suits that have it's purpose for having said speed, why not just buff commando speeds? Start there... don't over reach, man. CEO / Art.of.Death
Mr.Pepe Le Pew Art.of.Death 134	Posted - 2015.05.29 14:58:00 - [593] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: As I've said every time it comes up the only "skin in the game" I have is that the ratio itself be maintained as a game wide foundation (or if a case is solidly built against it that the ratio be abandoned as a game wide thing when it comes to balancing roles, mods, races et al). I have no stake whatsoever in what those ratios are or which role falls where within them so long as the ratios are applied universally and equally. Without a universal and equal application of foundational vision (be it this method or another) that applies to all roles rather than cherry picks a few things, balance becomes either a bad zero sum game or a crapshoot and we stay in the same rut we've been in for years. -continued- [formatting is off because I wrote this in notepad] Took me a few reads to fully understand what you're saying but I think I've got a rudimentary understanding of it. You want balanced role, mods, races and if a case be made to go against a foundation or design that it be solidly, logically built as a justifiable reason to go against the base methods. Without an equal application of foundational vision that applies to everything, you feel that the balancing act becomes a shot in the dark at what works. I don't feel this is the case because we have done some pretty awesome stuff with balance without trying to have everything on a curve or having trade-offs, and trying to adhere to that may work logically and mathematically but a video game isn't all about logic or math, but sometimes how something -feels- You feel as though speed being enough to outweigh DPS potential and raw HP is a fundamental problem. I feel that this stems from different views on what Assaults actually are designed for, which is a consequence of it not having a pre-determined role. It's abstract and left to interpretation, but neither of our interpretations are necessarily wrong and they shouldn't be viewed as wrong. This has always been the case but it's not something we can fix. Hit detection issues are and have always been prevailant and yes, it's something we take advantage of -because- it is viable and is a fundamental part of speed tanking. There is an entire game skill dedicated to this, its nothing new, Regnyum has a video on strafing tactics and a lot of high-end slayers are known for their ability to strafe. Are you insinuating that we should work to ensure strafing is -NOT- a viable tactic as a whole? If so, I'm okay with that, but it needs to apply to everyone, not just Assaults. It needs to apply to Logis and Scouts as well. I feel as though your obsession with a base method and a foundation is blinding you to the needs and desires of your community. Yes, we understand hit detection is an issue. Yes, we understand that strafing is a problem. Yes, we know that without strafing, we're entirely reliant on EHP. We also understand that many in the community dislike this - but it is what part of the game's entire culture is founded on. As previously stated, if it is an issue, than it needs to be quashed across the entire spectrum, not just with Assaults. I understand and agree with your sentiment toward "The thing" but this isn't an effort to make Assaults "the thing" it's an effort to keep Assaults a viable playstyle that, without a unique and applicable role, has largely been associated with slayer-ship. Your community is asking to retain the things we value most with the role that we have carved the Assault into. The values that were designed to pull us from other roles into the Assault -because- we were using other roles for what we desired to do (and will continue to do so, even if that role is with the Logistics). It's not "don't touch any Assault numbers except the min assault", I'm not that obtuse, I'm saying that we want the Assaults to retain their functionality and the role that we basically had to make ourselves because they don't really have one that's unique to them. The proposal was to hit their speed. We said that wasn't in our favor because we need speed. The proposal shifted to changing sprint speed. We said that wasn't in our favor because movement/strafe speed is more valuable than sprint speed because we are combatants - we don't need help getting TO the battle, we need help surviving it in the first place. Now we are being told that our desire for that is a fundamental problem... What can we do to make a happy compromise, here? What way can we retain what we desire and need to adhere to our chosen specialization without moving/speccing into another suit while also going with the desire for a consistent method? I agree with your post. I don't think anyone thinks any sprint or strafe speed nerf/buff is necessary at ALL. Don't break something that works well. If CCP feels like making other roles relevant or balance the game, then, IMHO do the following: -buff HMG damage, keep range as is or nerf it if need be. The last nerf took sentinels out of the game. -buff commandos with an extra slot and a little more speed -nerf range of ScR -buff armor rep on gal scout -coding on hit detection needs to be resolved -take the meat-grinder map (the one with the two silos) out of the rotation, specially in FW Sprint speed has never been an issue in the game. Increasing strafe speed will break the game. CEO / Art.of.Death
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 5	Posted - 2015.05.29 15:42:00 - [594] - Quote As I have stated idgaf about the nerf or buff choose one or the other cuz both will make assaults obsolete...Contrary to popular belief I build my suits around reps/feros.. I don't break hit detection nor do I try to so don't put me in that boat...I'm telling you what will happen when you nerf something and buff everything else..it's the same as a double nerf...min ass is the only assault that broke hit detection and the only one needing a movement nerf. Though I have better things to do than this so when the time comes I'll show you what I meant since you wouldn't listen...now I've done my part I'm out (got to recover from my surgery) Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.05.29 15:51:00 - [595] - Quote Yep, this is why I stay away from numbers until I know exactly what all the factors are. There's a lot more to it than just what the stats tell us in game. Sighs, we will see what happens though. I've got my tank and my Commando ready just in case assaults bomb again, which I don't think they will. Sgt Kirk's Gallente Propaganda Youtube Channel
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 195	Posted - 2015.05.29 15:59:00 - [596] - Quote I think there is meret to giving assauots more sprint speed so that they can apply pressure more readily, but strafe speed is the main reason assaults have such a lead in kills/spawn over other suits. It is hard to strafe as a commando/sentinel because you simply aren't as fast. Super straify, 650eHP cal scouts also do this strategy, and high hp + speed means hard to kill suits. And whether or not hit detection is an issue, you do have people from all around the world with different quality internet connections playing together, and some people benefit from their lack of relative connection quality. Especially people who change position rapidly. Let us not forget that assaults suits have the highest kills/spawn, and their ubiquity on the battlefield is likely indicative of their performance. They have speed, and hp, so they can tank well, and twitch back and forth. There is a reason that this proposal was created in the first place. I urge any developers read this to not focus too much on feedback from players that want theor suits to be powerful, and try looking at the data. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 16:35:00 - [597] - Quote CeeJ Mantis wrote: I think there is meret to giving assauots more sprint speed so that they can apply pressure more readily, but strafe speed is the main reason assaults have such a lead in kills/spawn over other suits. It is hard to strafe as a commando/sentinel because you simply aren't as fast. Super straify, 650eHP cal scouts also do this strategy, and high hp + speed means hard to kill suits. And whether or not hit detection is an issue, you do have people from all around the world with different quality internet connections playing together, and some people benefit from their lack of relative connection quality. Especially people who change position rapidly. Let us not forget that assaults suits have the highest kills/spawn, and their ubiquity on the battlefield is likely indicative of their performance. They have speed, and hp, so they can tank well, and twitch back and forth. There is a reason that this proposal was created in the first place. I urge any developers read this to not focus too much on feedback from players that want theor suits to be powerful, and try looking at the data. I urge the developers to not simply look at everything as bias because of the contradictory views that the forums have. 1) You either don't play the playstyle/specialization, and don't know what you're talking about 2) You do play the playstyle/specialization, and are bias There's no winning. It's not about wanting our suits to be powerful, we all want our suits be powerful, we just don't want to go -back- to not being viable. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Michael Epic Horizons' Edge No Context 933	Posted - 2015.05.29 16:52:00 - [598] - Quote I just want the super strafing to go away. I hate it. Its ridiculous and it shouldn't be in this or any other game. Strafing IS a legit tactic and it is useful on the battlefield but the super strafers that can move in figure 8 patterns and blap you in .2 seconds is ridiculous. I'd like to see that mess go away...because HEY GUESS WHAT, in Uprising 1.6 and before, there was no such thing as super strafers and the game was a TON better. Yeah, it had its problems (that was a long time ago) but it was good. People were having fun. Then 1.7 came and until CCP Rattati took over, its gone downhill ever since. I stopped playing this game for 8 months. I'm back and have been back for awhile and want to stay because this is my favorite game but some of the crap that goes on in this game is ridiculous. Super strafing is one of those things. Michael Epic's "EPIC" Proposal to his girlfriend :D
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 926	Posted - 2015.05.29 16:55:00 - [599] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: CeeJ Mantis wrote: I think there is meret to giving assauots more sprint speed so that they can apply pressure more readily, but strafe speed is the main reason assaults have such a lead in kills/spawn over other suits. It is hard to strafe as a commando/sentinel because you simply aren't as fast. Super straify, 650eHP cal scouts also do this strategy, and high hp + speed means hard to kill suits. And whether or not hit detection is an issue, you do have people from all around the world with different quality internet connections playing together, and some people benefit from their lack of relative connection quality. Especially people who change position rapidly. Let us not forget that assaults suits have the highest kills/spawn, and their ubiquity on the battlefield is likely indicative of their performance. They have speed, and hp, so they can tank well, and twitch back and forth. There is a reason that this proposal was created in the first place. I urge any developers read this to not focus too much on feedback from players that want theor suits to be powerful, and try looking at the data. I urge the developers to not simply look at everything as bias because of the contradictory views that the forums have. 1) You either don't play the playstyle/specialization, and don't know what you're talking about 2) You do play the playstyle/specialization, and are bias There's no winning. It's not about wanting our suits to be powerful, we all want our suits be powerful, we just don't want to go -back- to not being viable. CeeJ is urging CCP to look at the data and not just people's opinions. Which strikes me as a very good idea.
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 497	Posted - 2015.05.29 17:20:00 - [600] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We can have dynamic strafe speeds as well, so assault can be slower than logi, sprint faster, and still have superior strafe speed. Sounds like thats how it should be right there BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 17:32:00 - [601] - Quote Haerr wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Stuff You left out HP Pool and Movement Speed, and you are overvaluing Stamina Pool and Stamina Regen. (No module will give you +0.45 movement speed but 1 module will give +100% Stamina AND +100% Stamina Regen.) Besides if you are going to start comparing the value different suits stats you'll need a baseline and then assign a value to each attribute (module slot per benefit would be a decent enough start since the different modules already have an assign value by CCP), that way you can calculate the combined stats of a suit as a single value. (Though it will be incomplete since there isn't an assigned value for high/low to eq and/or weapon slot conversions.) Not sure which post you're responding to here but if it was the one with the fittings I didn't work those up I just spot checked them on proto fits. If it was another you're going to have to point out which one so I have context for what you are talking about. I haven't, to my knowledge, applied a specific comparative value between HP,, walk speed, sprint speed, sta, sta regen, et al In fact I have specifically and repeatedly stated that I am not doing that very thing. I care about an equitable and universal ratio being established and have tried to respond to others within the contexts they present, but I don't claim to have the numbers for what every aspect of that ratio should be tuned to. Please elaborate on what you are replying to. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
golpe 4 Eternal Beings 28	Posted - 2015.05.29 18:14:00 - [602] - Quote ccp saw most people were assault so they nerf assault so assaults will pay for aurum to respec into logi im just a scrub here, to u know, do things helpful like ummm commenting,complaining,and giving terrible advice thats it
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 18:20:00 - [603] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: ... Armor/Shield Regen: 3 pts Assault > 2 pts Logi > 1pt Scout Stamina Pool: 3pts Scout > 2pts Assault > 1pt Logi Stamina Regen: 3pts Scout > 2pts Assault > 1pt Logi Net results: Scout 8pts > Assault 7pts > Logi 4pts Is there some way in which I have misapplied the conceptual aspects here? Possibly, yes, but only it relates to your point system illustration. If each characteristic were equally weighted against the next, and all characteristics were being tallied for simultaneous evaluation, then an equal-point distribution system would make alot of sense. But all characteristics do not share a 1:1 relationship, the ability to enhance characterstics do not share a 1:1 relationship, and not all characteristics are being simultaneously evaluated. (Hope that makes sense ... if not, I can reword). Observation At the most fundamental level, the attributes which affect survivability by greatest degree are Speed and HP. Units which are able to simultaneously achieve high values of both become FoTM. It isn't just about mobility or MN Scouts would be FoTM; it isn't just about HP or AM Sentinels would be FoTM. Speed is indeed more heavily weighted than HP, but FoTM still requires high values of both. If a tradeoff model between HP and Speed existed, units would be less readily able to simultaneously achieve both high speed and high HP. Opinion In my personal opinion, we should move forward with a tradeoff model between the primary attributes Base Movement and Base HP. As Rattati has suggested, doing so would give us a solid, rational foundation to work from. Having established that framework, we can then tweak whatever other attributes are on the table (i.e. sprint multipliers, stamina stats, regen stats, strafe stats, etc) to safeguard against role bleed. Sure they are not all 1:1 I completely agree, but you weren't providing numeric values for any of them and the implied context (due to the subject of the thread) is having a ratio which applies them in a functionally equal measure. I wasn't saying 1m sprint speed = 1 HP armor, I was saying "in a properly defined ratio of speed to HP as is proposed by the OP no one role should have the highest combined average rank in all input factors". I agree with the Observation section of your above quote and that is one of the key premise upon which my support for a ratio is predicated (another being that such a ratio concept already exists throughout the game in various forms but the lack of a universal method for it causes the balance value to be moderate to minimal depending on case). CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 18:23:00 - [604] - Quote I'm with you, Cross. Thanks for the clarification. o7 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 18:31:00 - [605] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: As I've said every time it comes up the only "skin in the game" I have is that the ratio itself be maintained as a game wide foundation (or if a case is solidly built against it that the ratio be abandoned as a game wide thing when it comes to balancing roles, mods, races et al). I have no stake whatsoever in what those ratios are or which role falls where within them so long as the ratios are applied universally and equally. Without a universal and equal application of foundational vision (be it this method or another) that applies to all roles rather than cherry picks a few things, balance becomes either a bad zero sum game or a crapshoot and we stay in the same rut we've been in for years. -continued- [formatting is off because I wrote this in notepad] Took me a few reads to fully understand what you're saying but I think I've got a rudimentary understanding of it. You want balanced role, mods, races and if a case be made to go against a foundation or design that it be solidly, logically built as a justifiable reason to go against the base methods. Without an equal application of foundational vision that applies to everything, you feel that the balancing act becomes a shot in the dark at what works. This is a fair outline of my general view yes. I don't feel this is the case because we have done some pretty awesome stuff with balance without trying to have everything on a curve or having trade-offs, and trying to adhere to that may work logically and mathematically but a video game isn't all about logic or math, but sometimes how something -feels- You feel as though speed being enough to outweigh DPS potential and raw HP is a fundamental problem. I feel that this stems from different views on what Assaults actually are designed for, which is a consequence of it not having a pre-determined role. It's abstract and left to interpretation, but neither of our interpretations are necessarily wrong and they shouldn't be viewed as wrong. Agreed, neither interpretation is necessarily wrong which is a firm highly of why a foundational method is needed and how without one we are shooting in the dark. Or perhaps more specifically said, we are all shooting at differing marks and treating them as if they are the same target. Either way it doesn't lend itself to solid stable work or well advised player choices in game (which in turn creates justifiable frustration when someone skills into a suit or weapon for a given play style only to have it altered in ways that make it no longer valid/useful for that playstyle). This has always been the case but it's not something we can fix. Hit detection issues are and have always been prevailant and yes, it's something we take advantage of -because- it is viable and is a fundamental part of speed tanking. It (the lack of a clear vision and method) very much IS something we can fix by there being a defined vision and method within which balance and role are framed. That is exactly the point of the OP (or at the bear minimum my support for it) and is at the hart of many prior problems with Dust development as I have been stated repeatedly since Closed Beta. Without a vision, without a context, everything is a deeply subjective mess of anecdotal hearsay. There is an entire game skill dedicated to this, its nothing new, Regnyum has a video on strafing tactics and a lot of high-end slayers are known for their ability to strafe. Are you insinuating that we should work to ensure strafing is -NOT- a viable tactic as a whole? If so, I'm okay with that, but it needs to apply to everyone, not just Assaults. It needs to apply to Logis and Scouts as well. My point is, and has always been, that any/all proposed changes be applied to ALL ROLES EQUALLY and that an focus on 1, or a small selection of roles is improper and should not happen I'm going to reply within the body of the quote above denoting my text with underline so that the forum doesn't block me from posting due to too many quotes. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 18:50:00 - [606] - Quote part 2, due to character limit Aeon wrote: I feel as though your obsession with a base method and a foundation is blinding you to the needs and desires of your community. Yes, we understand hit detection is an issue. Yes, we understand that strafing is a problem. Yes, we know that without strafing, we're entirely reliant on EHP. We also understand that many in the community dislike this - but it is what part of the game's entire culture is founded on. As previously stated, if it is an issue, than it needs to be quashed across the entire spectrum, not just with Assaults. I object to the hyperbolic use of "obsession" and find it inaccurate. Moving beyond that; There are a whole stack of "what if" questions which once again call to mind the sense of "shooting in the dark". I could delineate a list of what if's that are equally as plausible and also represent some segments of the player base. The most accurate response I can formulate to this is that at no time have I advocated the ratio be applied only to one role, in fact I have been advocating the exact opposite of that this entire time. This is not about assaults, logi, scouts, commandos, or sents, this is about a proper context applied to all of them that is and has always been the point. I understand and agree with your sentiment toward "The thing" but this isn't an effort to make Assaults "the thing" it's an effort to keep Assaults a viable playstyle that, without a unique and applicable role, has largely been associated with slayer-ship. Your community is asking to retain the things we value most with the role that we have carved the Assault into. The values that were designed to pull us from other roles into the Assault -because- we were using other roles for what we desired to do (and will continue to do so, even if that role is with the Logistics). If "the things that [you] value most" are superior levels of both eHP and speed simultaneously then I would have to say any role defined by that is not actually a role and still needs clearer definition. If the things most valued are not having a best in class combination of speed and eHP then at no point have I objected to those values being kept. And just so we're clear, since you talk about community representation, that must be the whole community all roles not one sub-segment which means that a method applied to all roles equally as I have been supporting the entire time is the only way for me to represent the community. Anything other than an even handed method applied to all becomes playing favorites and that is not good game health or community representation. It's not "don't touch any Assault numbers except the min assault", I'm not that obtuse, I'm saying that we want the Assaults to retain their functionality and the role that we basically had to make ourselves because they don't really have one that's unique to them. The proposal was to hit their speed. We said that wasn't in our favor because we need speed. The proposal shifted to changing sprint speed. We said that wasn't in our favor because movement/strafe speed is more valuable than sprint speed because we are combatants - we don't need help getting TO the battle, we need help surviving it in the first place. Now we are being told that our desire for that is a fundamental problem... What can we do to make a happy compromise, here? What way can we retain what we desire and need to adhere to our chosen specialization without moving/speccing into another suit while also going with the desire for a consistent method? The only proposal that I have been supporting (and remember these have been responses to me that you're making) is that there be a ratio equally applied to all roles. I have stated repeatedly that I am not advocating specific numbers and reiterated it yet again in the post you are responding to. I am in no way against assaults being functional, in fact I have actively promoted it on many occasions, but "functional" does not and cannot mean "superior". This is true for the Assault and it is true for every other role as well. There must be an even handed foundational method applied to all roles equally so that none are "the best" because be it definition you cannot have "the best role/race/fit" be a thing while also having balance. You've asked for a "compromise" which I am not sure how that applies in the contexts of my posts but by all means I'm happy to hear you out. Please list specifically what you want to keep and let's talk about if it has any conflicts with a fair and universally applied method. If it does not then there is no need for compromise as far as I'm concerned because I already don't oppose it in the least. What I do oppose is any role, no matter which, getting special treatment and advantage in something as basic as ability to be alive and act within the game. A role lacking that fundamental ability is not viable and a game with in-viable roles is not balanced, that sort of imbalance is what I do oppose. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 19:13:00 - [607] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: As I've said every time it comes up the only "skin in the game" I have is that the ratio itself be maintained as a game wide foundation (or if a case is solidly built against it that the ratio be abandoned as a game wide thing when it comes to balancing roles, mods, races et al). I have no stake whatsoever in what those ratios are or which role falls where within them so long as the ratios are applied universally and equally. Without a universal and equal application of foundational vision (be it this method or another) that applies to all roles rather than cherry picks a few things, balance becomes either a bad zero sum game or a crapshoot and we stay in the same rut we've been in for years. -continued- [formatting is off because I wrote this in notepad] Took me a few reads to fully understand what you're saying but I think I've got a rudimentary understanding of it. You want balanced role, mods, races and if a case be made to go against a foundation or design that it be solidly, logically built as a justifiable reason to go against the base methods. Without an equal application of foundational vision that applies to everything, you feel that the balancing act becomes a shot in the dark at what works. I don't feel this is the case because we have done some pretty awesome stuff with balance without trying to have everything on a curve or having trade-offs, and trying to adhere to that may work logically and mathematically but a video game isn't all about logic or math, but sometimes how something -feels- You feel as though speed being enough to outweigh DPS potential and raw HP is a fundamental problem. I feel that this stems from different views on what Assaults actually are designed for, which is a consequence of it not having a pre-determined role. It's abstract and left to interpretation, but neither of our interpretations are necessarily wrong and they shouldn't be viewed as wrong. This has always been the case but it's not something we can fix. Hit detection issues are and have always been prevailant and yes, it's something we take advantage of -because- it is viable and is a fundamental part of speed tanking. There is an entire game skill dedicated to this, its nothing new, Regnyum has a video on strafing tactics and a lot of high-end slayers are known for their ability to strafe. Are you insinuating that we should work to ensure strafing is -NOT- a viable tactic as a whole? If so, I'm okay with that, but it needs to apply to everyone, not just Assaults. It needs to apply to Logis and Scouts as well. I feel as though your obsession with a base method and a foundation is blinding you to the needs and desires of your community. Yes, we understand hit detection is an issue. Yes, we understand that strafing is a problem. Yes, we know that without strafing, we're entirely reliant on EHP. We also understand that many in the community dislike this - but it is what part of the game's entire culture is founded on. As previously stated, if it is an issue, than it needs to be quashed across the entire spectrum, not just with Assaults. I understand and agree with your sentiment toward "The thing" but this isn't an effort to make Assaults "the thing" it's an effort to keep Assaults a viable playstyle that, without a unique and applicable role, has largely been associated with slayer-ship. Your community is asking to retain the things we value most with the role that we have carved the Assault into. The values that were designed to pull us from other roles into the Assault -because- we were using other roles for what we desired to do (and will continue to do so, even if that role is with the Logistics). It's not "don't touch any Assault numbers except the min assault", I'm not that obtuse, I'm saying that we want the Assaults to retain their functionality and the role that we basically had to make ourselves because they don't really have one that's unique to them. The proposal was to hit their speed. We said that wasn't in our favor because we need speed. The proposal shifted to changing sprint speed. We said that wasn't in our favor because movement/strafe speed is more valuable than sprint speed because we are combatants - we don't need help getting TO the battle, we need help surviving it in the first place. Now we are being told that our desire for that is a fundamental problem... What can we do to make a happy compromise, here? What way can we retain what we desire and need to adhere to our chosen specialization without moving/speccing into another suit while also going with the desire for a consistent method? We desire to strafe, because it allows us to take advantage of flaw in hit detection and dodge bullets...
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:14:00 - [608] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: You've asked for a "compromise" which I am not sure how that applies in the contexts of my posts but by all means I'm happy to hear you out. Please list specifically what you want to keep and let's talk about if it has any conflicts with a fair and universally applied method. If it does not then there is no need for compromise as far as I'm concerned because I already don't oppose it in the least. What I do oppose is any role, no matter which, getting special treatment and advantage in something as basic as ability to be alive and act within the game. A role lacking that fundamental ability is not viable and a game with in-viable roles is not balanced, that sort of imbalance is what I do oppose. Then who do I need talk to that will be concerned with the issues I've brought up without it being related to this universally applied method? Because I find it unfair that we can't provide feedback in defense of our wants/needs unless it is directly related to this. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:24:00 - [609] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: You've asked for a "compromise" which I am not sure how that applies in the contexts of my posts but by all means I'm happy to hear you out. Please list specifically what you want to keep and let's talk about if it has any conflicts with a fair and universally applied method. If it does not then there is no need for compromise as far as I'm concerned because I already don't oppose it in the least. What I do oppose is any role, no matter which, getting special treatment and advantage in something as basic as ability to be alive and act within the game. A role lacking that fundamental ability is not viable and a game with in-viable roles is not balanced, that sort of imbalance is what I do oppose. Then who do I need talk to that will be concerned with the issues I've brought up without it being related to this universally applied method? Because I find it unfair that we can't provide feedback in defense of our wants/needs unless it is directly related to this. Probably because your wants/needs as stated are "we want the status quo" and it's an ass status quo. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:44:00 - [610] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: You've asked for a "compromise" which I am not sure how that applies in the contexts of my posts but by all means I'm happy to hear you out. Please list specifically what you want to keep and let's talk about if it has any conflicts with a fair and universally applied method. If it does not then there is no need for compromise as far as I'm concerned because I already don't oppose it in the least. What I do oppose is any role, no matter which, getting special treatment and advantage in something as basic as ability to be alive and act within the game. A role lacking that fundamental ability is not viable and a game with in-viable roles is not balanced, that sort of imbalance is what I do oppose. Then who do I need talk to that will be concerned with the issues I've brought up without it being related to this universally applied method? Because I find it unfair that we can't provide feedback in defense of our wants/needs unless it is directly related to this. I asked you to specifically list what you want in detail in that very post. And clearly this is CCP Rattati's thread. Both of the above being established facts I have no idea why you would not already be providing said detailed list of items. And please, when you do list these desired aspects put them in a list format yes? Paragraphs are great for the conversation we've been having thus far, but when it comes to recounting actual lists of items better to format them in lists then in blocks of text. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 22:41:00 - [611] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Probably because your wants/needs as stated are "we want the status quo" and it's an ass status quo. Unnecessary and, frankly, rude. Cross Atu wrote: I asked you to specifically list what you want in detail in that very post. And clearly this is CCP Rattati's thread. Both of the above being established facts I have no idea why you would not already be providing said detailed list of items. And please, when you do list these desired aspects put them in a list format yes? Paragraphs are great for the conversation we've been having thus far, but when it comes to recounting actual lists of items better to format them in lists then in blocks of text. Highlighting reasons why. Cross Atu wrote: You've asked for a "compromise" which I am not sure how that applies in the contexts of my posts but by all means I'm happy to hear you out. Please list specifically what you want to keep and let's talk about if it has any conflicts with a fair and universally applied method.If it does not then there is no need for compromise as far as I'm concerned because I already don't oppose it in the least. What I do oppose is any role, no matter which, getting special treatment and advantage in something as basic as ability to be alive and act within the game. A role lacking that fundamental ability is not viable and a game with in-viable roles is not balanced, that sort of imbalance is what I do oppose. Maybe I read it in the wrong light...? Cross Atu wrote: EDIT: Since it is CCP Rattati's thread here is an extra point of specific focus CCP Rattati wrote: Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now. Please take specific care to list if and or how your wants conflict with Rattati's quote above and if they do elaborate on why and how your listed wants should take precedence and in what way that provides better game wide balance/heath than does the scenario proposed by the quoted text. I still find a game wide focus to be the most relevant, but since you wish to focus more tightly the interaction between the medium frames as described by Rattati seems the proper point to do it. 1) Assault Role, or lack thereof. 2) Lack of a dedicated middle-ground slayer after these changes(situated above the 4.5m/s margin) 3) Why, again, we can't just bring Logi's up to par with Assaults and just hit Assault's EHP, keeping them both at the same speed. 4) Why is it considered okay for Scouts/Logis to have higher speed but not Assault, even after we proposed an EHP nerf? 1 - We don't have a role, there hasn't been much work toward giving us a role since Uprising 1.7, and there doesn't look to be on the near horizon. What do you want Assaults to do?What do you want us to do in the meantime, while we wait? Assaults were buffed for slayer capability, now they're too good at Slaying, but we feel that the proposed changes will impact that in such a way as that we will want to move to other suits to continue slaying. This is suboptimal. 2 - If Assaults are dropped in speed than there is a larger gap in the EHP/Speed ratio for dedicated slayers. Assaults, currently, offer the second highest movement speed and we've already proposed that an EHP nerf would be acceptable to balance that out. The gap between Scout speed and Assault speed, with these proposed changes, is a harsh negative that even without being implemented yet is causing some dedicated assault players to consider changing to Slayer Logis to retain their speed, even knowing that the EHP is lower (offering credence that we'd just as soon take the EHP hit to maintain our current speed).[/u] 3 - A healthier alternative would simply be to buff the Logis and Commandos as the proposal stats but to leave Assaults alone. We can't automatically assume that players -won't- move on from Assaults unless they are simultaneously nerfed. We can absolutely go with a baseline foundation on Frames with slight assymetry if it proves to be beneficial. We do not absolutely, positively have to do everything at once. [u]Let's at least -try it out- and if it doesn't work (players aren't migrating from Assault to Logi/Commando) then we CAN ABSOLUTELY hit their speed. I worry that the precedence of doing it now, at the same time as everything, will cause a return of the previous trend where they're simply never brought back up. 4 - If EHP/Speed ratio is the issue than why is it justifiable that Logis and Assaults switch Speed but not EHP? This boggles my mind. The goal is still being exacted on - Assaults lose EHP/Speed ratio whereas Logis gain it. And, again, it's not even 100% necessary for Logis to gain EHP in that case, we can simply nerf Assault EHP and see how it works. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.29 23:53:00 - [612] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Unnecessary and, frankly, rude. I find me charming too. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 275	Posted - 2015.05.30 00:42:00 - [613] - Quote Aeon, so, to be clear, you have no problem with the eHP vs Speed curve, you just have the problem with the Assaults getting lower speed (and would be willing the take an eHP nerf to fit into the curve), due to the similarity between Assaults and Commandos, and concerns about the logi's relative power is that correct? Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 857	Posted - 2015.05.30 00:47:00 - [614] - Quote This is related but takes a bit of a different spin on the whole Logi/Assault speed issue; give them the same base speed. Give Assaults better stamina but less sprint speed and Logis better sprint speed but lower stamina. An Assault needs to be able to run for extended periods of time, move around, and engage targets. Logis need to be able to sprint across openings (I.e. short distances) to get to a teammate who is downed/injured/ammoless to assist them. If base speed is standardized and we simply adjusted the sprint/stamina, it would fit in with the requirements of each role. With everything else going like Rattati suggested on the thread, would this be a valid compromise for people? The assaults with be able to run a bit farther but for short distances they will not be as fast as the logis and slower than the scouts. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:16:00 - [615] - Quote Added charts! > Google Doc < :: tinkers with spreadsheet :: Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:25:00 - [616] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Aeon, so, to be clear, you have no problem with the eHP vs Speed curve, you just have the problem with the Assaults getting lower speed (and would be willing the take an eHP nerf to fit into the curve), due to the similarity between Assaults and Commandos, and concerns about the logi's relative power is that correct? Yes. Exactly. Thokk Nightshade wrote: This is related but takes a bit of a different spin on the whole Logi/Assault speed issue; give them the same base speed. Give Assaults better stamina but less sprint speed and Logis better sprint speed but lower stamina. An Assault needs to be able to run for extended periods of time, move around, and engage targets. Logis need to be able to sprint across openings (I.e. short distances) to get to a teammate who is downed/injured/ammoless to assist them. If base speed is standardized and we simply adjusted the sprint/stamina, it would fit in with the requirements of each role. With everything else going like Rattati suggested on the thread, would this be a valid compromise for people? The assaults with be able to run a bit farther but for short distances they will not be as fast as the logis and slower than the scouts. This is optimal, in my eyes, as a start. I would prefer this instead of going for the Buff Logi/Commando + Nerf Assaults route because, as someone else said, that is technically a double nerf. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Cu' Chulainn Art.of.Death 26	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:26:00 - [617] - Quote Hey to be honest, most my complaints with shields are being indirectly handled here. The minmatar assault mobility was an issue for me. But also it's dual tanking ability needs to be addressed. And then the ScR being addressed so I don't die when it looks at me from 0m - 100m away[/quote] Min Assault is SPLIT between tanks NOT dual tanked. Speed is the best defense for us. Makes us susceptible to Sheild and Armor based weapons. We also have to use a balance of Energizer/Recharger + Regulator + Armor rep to compete against High damage weapons Like RR and ScrR. Min Assault was already nerfed once. Caldari w Overtank Sheilds and Complex Ferroscale plates...CBT rifle almost stands still against it. Flanking + Speed + dual regen is what I have. Don't listen to this Clown! THAT is a REP TOOL "Don't stand in front of the HEAVY" - Matt Pagliotti "Now Move out and Draw FIRE!!!" - REDRUM
Cu' Chulainn Art.of.Death 26	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:34:00 - [618] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Just curious why a soldier that carries a **** ton of equipment will be faster than his assault counterpart........I understand your graphs and can see the curve makes sense on paper....but I don't play DUST on PAPER!!! THAT is a REP TOOL "Don't stand in front of the HEAVY" - Matt Pagliotti "Now Move out and Draw FIRE!!!" - REDRUM
Cu' Chulainn Art.of.Death 26	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:36:00 - [619] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Doc DDD wrote: Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks... 8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply. Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV. Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance? How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo. Hey to be honest, most my complaints with shields are being indirectly handled here. The minmatar assault mobility was an issue for me. But also it's dual tanking ability needs to be addressed. And then the ScR being addressed so I don't die when it looks at me from 0m - 100m away Min Assault is SPLIT between tanks NOT dual tanked. Speed is the best defense for us. Makes us susceptible to Sheild and Armor based weapons. We also have to use a balance of Energizer/Recharger + Regulator + Armor rep to compete against High damage weapons Like RR and ScrR. Min Assault was already nerfed once. Caldari w Overtank Sheilds and Complex Ferroscale plates...CBT rifle almost stands still against it. Flanking + Speed + dual regen is what I have. Don't listen to this Clown! THAT is a REP TOOL "Don't stand in front of the HEAVY" - Matt Pagliotti "Now Move out and Draw FIRE!!!" - REDRUM
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 277	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:39:00 - [620] - Quote Cu' Chulainn wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Just curious why a soldier that carries a **** ton of equipment will be faster than his assault counterpart........I understand your graphs and can see the curve makes sense on paper....but I don't play DUST on PAPER!!! Specialized Servos/Exoskeleton takes the place of the targeting sensors/heat sinks of the assaults allowing it to move faster despite the heavier load? If your issue is to the how a soldier moves faster it's easy to technobabble with sufficiently advanced technology, especially for a universe with confirmed anti-grav/non-air-cushion hover tech, things like graviton reactors and tractor beams Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:50:00 - [621] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: 1) Assault Role, or lack thereof. 2) Lack of a dedicated middle-ground slayer after these changes(situated above the 4.5m/s margin) 3) Why, again, we can't just bring Logi's up to par with Assaults and just hit Assault's EHP, keeping them both at the same speed. 4) Why is it considered okay for Scouts/Logis to have higher speed but not Assault, even after we proposed an EHP nerf? 1 - We don't have a role, there hasn't been much work toward giving us a role since Uprising 1.7, and there doesn't look to be on the near horizon. What do you want Assaults to do? What do you want us to do in the meantime, while we wait? Assaults were buffed for slayer capability, now they're too good at Slaying, but we feel that the proposed changes will impact that in such a way as that we will want to move to other suits to continue slaying. This is suboptimal. 2 - If Assaults are dropped in speed than there is a larger gap in the EHP/Speed ratio for dedicated slayers. Assaults, currently, offer the second highest movement speed and we've already proposed that an EHP nerf would be acceptable to balance that out. The gap between Scout speed and Assault speed, with these proposed changes, is a harsh negative that even without being implemented yet is causing some dedicated assault players to consider changing to Slayer Logis to retain their speed, even knowing that the EHP is lower (offering credence that we'd just as soon take the EHP hit to maintain our current speed).[/u] 3 - A healthier alternative would simply be to buff the Logis and Commandos as the proposal stats but to leave Assaults alone. We can't automatically assume that players -won't- move on from Assaults unless they are simultaneously nerfed. We can absolutely go with a baseline foundation on Frames with slight assymetry if it proves to be beneficial. We do not absolutely, positively have to do everything at once. [u]Let's at least -try it out- and if it doesn't work (players aren't migrating from Assault to Logi/Commando) then we CAN ABSOLUTELY hit their speed. I worry that the precedence of doing it now, at the same time as everything, will cause a return of the previous trend where they're simply never brought back up (edit) in the eventuality that they're over-nerfed. 4 - If EHP/Speed ratio is the issue than why is it justifiable that Logis and Assaults switch Speed but not EHP? This boggles my mind. The goal is still being exacted on - Assaults lose EHP/Speed ratio whereas Logis gain it. And, again, it's not even 100% necessary for Logis to gain EHP in that case, we can simply nerf Assault EHP and see how it works. 1) Not certain what is defined as Assault Role in your eyes when it comes to mechancis. Will read on and presume it is covered by your other listed items. 2) I have at no point advocated specific numbers only that all roles exists within the same method equally. Given that I have specifically askewed any specific stats advocacy there is nothing in what I've supported that conflicts with assaults being above 4.5m/s so long as they and all other roles adhere to one method. 3) I have repeatedly stated that the particular numbers used, and even the relative places of each role on the curve, is something I am totally open about so long as every role adheres to the same method/ratio. If that means that all medium frames have identical speed and HP, that logi are faster with lower comparative ehp, or that assaults are faster with lower relative ehp, all of these satisfy the needs of a foundational method and any of these are acceptable to me as I have already stated more than once. 4) In my view it is okay for any role, Scout, Assault, Commando, Logi, Sent, to have any relative place on the speed to ehp curve relative to any other role so long as the same ratio method is applied to all of them. It seems most sensible for Sent to remain the slowest highest HP point on that curve, and Scouts the fastest speed lowest HP point on the other end simply for the sake of continuity. Further it seems most sensible that Commandos be faster than Sent, but slower than Assaults due to their presence as a heavy frame, but even this to me is open discussion. With regards to the Assault and Logi interactions specifically I see three possible methods; Make Assaults higher HP lower speed Make Logi higher HP lower speed Make both medium frames equal HP and speed matching one and other in all speed and HP stats. There are pros and cons to each of these but as I have stated prior any of them would uphold the foundational method and thus any of them are things I would support as acceptable. So long as the ratio is applied - equally and to all roles - then the specific numbers of how it is applied are secondary. My advocacy is, and has always been, employing a game wide balance method. No more, no less. 0.02 ISK ~ Cross CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:55:00 - [622] - Quote Thokk Nightshade wrote: This is related but takes a bit of a different spin on the whole Logi/Assault speed issue; give them the same base speed. Give Assaults better stamina but less sprint speed and Logis better sprint speed but lower stamina. An Assault needs to be able to run for extended periods of time, move around, and engage targets. Logis need to be able to sprint across openings (I.e. short distances) to get to a teammate who is downed/injured/ammoless to assist them. If base speed is standardized and we simply adjusted the sprint/stamina, it would fit in with the requirements of each role. With everything else going like Rattati suggested on the thread, would this be a valid compromise for people? The assaults with be able to run a bit farther but for short distances they will not be as fast as the logis and slower than the scouts. Added "Thokk's Model" ... started with a sprint multipliers of 1.3 for Assaults and 1.4 for Logis. This page is all yours, so let me know if you'd like to tweak any of the values. > Google Doc < Personal Opinion: Logis sprinting faster than Scouts is potentially problematic. (my two cents) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
RedBleach LeSanglant Molon Labe. RUST415 830	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:00:00 - [623] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Make Logi higher HP lower speed There are pros and cons to each of these but as I have stated prior any of them would uphold the foundational method and thus any of them are things I would support as acceptable. So long as the ratio is applied - equally and to all roles - then the specific numbers of how it is applied are secondary. My advocacy is, and has always been, employing a game wide balance method. No more, no less. 0.02 ISK ~ Cross MOOOAAAR HP - TANK LOGIS!!! Sounds like a blast, put me right next to my Amarr Sentinel brother. Logi's become slow logi stations and not a character that can follow the squad. Interesting... but I don't know how fun it would be until we tried it. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:01:00 - [624] - Quote Just want to chime in: I haven't actually looked at your numbers adipem, but I'd really be in favor of logi's having (comparatively) lower sprint speeds, in exchange for faster walk speeds. While using an active piece of equipment like a rep tool, logi's can have major issues trying to keep up with a sentinel they're repping if the sentinel decides to sprint at all. I also do think that assault walk speeds should be lowered, in exchange for (slightly) faster sprint speeds, as this helps address issues with wigglewiggle destroying hit detection. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Cu' Chulainn Art.of.Death 26	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:02:00 - [625] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Cu' Chulainn wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Just curious why a soldier that carries a **** ton of equipment will be faster than his assault counterpart........I understand your graphs and can see the curve makes sense on paper....but I don't play DUST on PAPER!!! Specialized Servos/Exoskeleton takes the place of the targeting sensors/heat sinks of the assaults allowing it to move faster despite the heavier load? If your issue is to the how a soldier moves faster it's easy to technobabble with sufficiently advanced technology, especially for a universe with confirmed anti-grav/non-air-cushion hover tech, things like graviton reactors and tractor beams Agreed however the CPU/PG of Logi suit would be severely affected by the drain of running 4x the equipment+BW+ stronger servo/exoskeleton to make said logi suit faster than the more simple design of the assault.... pompous techno-babbling unnecessary.... Whenever the assaults gain targeting sensors/heat sinks let me know....I also believe the logi fit has a better natural scan radius. All this takes power. Anyway this is a digression from the point and I didn't post this so you see your own colourful words in print... A simple designed assault suit SHOULD be faster and more tanked than a complexly designed logi suit...maybe not by as much as it is currently...My opinion... BTW have you ever driven an LAV in DUST???? I guess the anti-grav/non-air-cushion hover tech was left at home spawn!!!!! THAT is a REP TOOL "Don't stand in front of the HEAVY" - Matt Pagliotti "Now Move out and Draw FIRE!!!" - REDRUM
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:05:00 - [626] - Quote Thokk Nightshade wrote: This is related but takes a bit of a different spin on the whole Logi/Assault speed issue; give them the same base speed. Give Assaults better stamina but less sprint speed and Logis better sprint speed but lower stamina. An Assault needs to be able to run for extended periods of time, move around, and engage targets. Logis need to be able to sprint across openings (I.e. short distances) to get to a teammate who is downed/injured/ammoless to assist them. If base speed is standardized and we simply adjusted the sprint/stamina, it would fit in with the requirements of each role. With everything else going like Rattati suggested on the thread, would this be a valid compromise for people? The assaults with be able to run a bit farther but for short distances they will not be as fast as the logis and slower than the scouts. As long as eHP of both roles is also scaled in light of this method being employed it would satisfy the need for a game wide method and as such be a functional option IMO. 0.02 ISK CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:09:00 - [627] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Just want to chime in: I haven't actually looked at your numbers adipem, but I'd really be in favor of logi's having (comparatively) lower sprint speeds, in exchange for faster walk speeds. While using an active piece of equipment like a rep tool, logi's can have major issues trying to keep up with a sentinel they're repping if the sentinel decides to sprint at all. I also do think that assault walk speeds should be lowered, in exchange for (slightly) faster sprint speeds, as this helps address issues with wigglewiggle destroying hit detection. Sounds alot like Ripley's Model ... is that what you had in mind? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:12:00 - [628] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: So long as the ratio is applied - equally and to all roles - then the specific numbers of how it is applied are secondary. My advocacy is, and has always been, employing a game wide balance method. No more, no less. 0.02 ISK ~ Cross Yeah, I understand that. I understood that five posts ago, lol. That was never up for debate. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 280	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:13:00 - [629] - Quote Cu' Chulainn wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Cu' Chulainn wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Just curious why a soldier that carries a **** ton of equipment will be faster than his assault counterpart........I understand your graphs and can see the curve makes sense on paper....but I don't play DUST on PAPER!!! Specialized Servos/Exoskeleton takes the place of the targeting sensors/heat sinks of the assaults allowing it to move faster despite the heavier load? If your issue is to the how a soldier moves faster it's easy to technobabble with sufficiently advanced technology, especially for a universe with confirmed anti-grav/non-air-cushion hover tech, things like graviton reactors and tractor beams Agreed however the CPU/PG of Logi suit would be severely affected by the drain of running 4x the equipment+BW+ stronger servo/exoskeleton to make said logi suit faster than the more simple design of the assault.... pompous techno-babbling unnecessary.... Whenever the assaults gain targeting sensors/heat sinks let me know....I also believe the logi fit has a better natural scan radius. All this takes power. Anyway this is a digression from the point and I didn't post this so you see your own colourful words in print... A simple designed assault suit SHOULD be faster and more tanked than a complexly designed logi suit...maybe not by as much as it is currently...My opinion... BTW have you ever driven an LAV in DUST???? I guess the anti-grav/non-air-cushion hover tech was left at home spawn!!!!! The Assault Suits aren't any more simple than logistics...as for why...see Rattati's OP, a standard underlying game design principle relating HP and Speed that applies to all suits, not just logistics and assaults Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:14:00 - [630] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: So long as the ratio is applied - equally and to all roles - then the specific numbers of how it is applied are secondary. My advocacy is, and has always been, employing a game wide balance method. No more, no less. 0.02 ISK ~ Cross Yeah, I understand that. I understood that five posts ago, lol. That was never up for debate. This honestly surprises me because it answers literally every single concern from your list (at least with regards to me, the individual you have been directly conversing with). Having understood it five posts ago and it never being up for debate as you declare (and I agree, I don't think my stance ever really was up for debate, I've been very clear and consistent on it) I am at a loss as to why you were motivated to address me for those intervening posts on this subject and do so in a manner that seemed to imply I had at any point said something in conflict with your desired aspect and outcomes (as defined by yourself in your list prior). CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 280	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:15:00 - [631] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: So long as the ratio is applied - equally and to all roles - then the specific numbers of how it is applied are secondary. My advocacy is, and has always been, employing a game wide balance method. No more, no less. 0.02 ISK ~ Cross Yeah, I understand that. I understood that five posts ago, lol. That was never up for debate. This honestly surprises me because it answers literally ever single concern from your list (at least with regards to me, the individual you have been directly conversing with). Aeon's been arguing for the specifics of where the assaults should lay on the curve, not arguing that they shouldn't (at least not anymore) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:23:00 - [632] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: So long as the ratio is applied - equally and to all roles - then the specific numbers of how it is applied are secondary. My advocacy is, and has always been, employing a game wide balance method. No more, no less. 0.02 ISK ~ Cross Yeah, I understand that. I understood that five posts ago, lol. That was never up for debate. This honestly surprises me because it answers literally ever single concern from your list (at least with regards to me, the individual you have been directly conversing with). Aeon's been arguing for the specifics of where the assaults should lay on the curve, not arguing that they shouldn't (at least not anymore) Odd choice to argue it with me when I've been explicitly not holding an advocacy for where the specifics fall relative to each other. I suppose I did at one point state my personal inclination, but it was both tagged as such and contextualized with saying that I'd find any placement which adhered to the method acceptable. Seems odd to have taken it as far as asking me for a "compromise" (compromise what, and how, if our positions do not conflict and he understood that?) and implying that I am dismissive of the views and feedback which coincide with his (as seen below) Aeon Amadi wrote: Then who do I need talk to that will be concerned with the issues I've brought up without it being related to this universally applied method? Because I find it unfair that we can't provide feedback in defense of our wants/needs unless it is directly related to this. If his only advocacy is that a certain set of specifics be employed, and it has been understood that my stance does not exist for or against any set of specifics, only that all specifics be applied fairly to every role via one methodology. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 862	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:24:00 - [633] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Thokk Nightshade wrote: This is related but takes a bit of a different spin on the whole Logi/Assault speed issue; give them the same base speed. Give Assaults better stamina but less sprint speed and Logis better sprint speed but lower stamina. An Assault needs to be able to run for extended periods of time, move around, and engage targets. Logis need to be able to sprint across openings (I.e. short distances) to get to a teammate who is downed/injured/ammoless to assist them. If base speed is standardized and we simply adjusted the sprint/stamina, it would fit in with the requirements of each role. With everything else going like Rattati suggested on the thread, would this be a valid compromise for people? The assaults with be able to run a bit farther but for short distances they will not be as fast as the logis and slower than the scouts. Added "Thokk's Model" ... started with a sprint multipliers of 1.3 for Assaults and 1.4 for Logis. This page is all yours, so let me know if you'd like to tweak any of the values. > Google Doc < Personal Opinion: Logis sprinting faster than Scouts is potentially problematic. (my two cents) Naw, I think the base values look solid. If we want to tone it down just a touch so Logis CAN'T get into Scout territory unless the Scout is fully brick tanked, I'd be OK with that too. Your point is definitely valid. However, Scouts have sprint AND stamina so even if the Logi can match the slowest Scout, it will be for a much shorter duration. I am not a big math guy so if someone else wanted to peek at it and put up an opinion I wpuld be totally OK with that. However, as long as the sprint is offset by the stamina so Assaults can run FARTHER than Logis, and we can quell the screaming of the scouts, I think the correlation is a nice balance. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:25:00 - [634] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: If his only advocacy is that a certain set of specifics be employed, and it has been understood that my stance does not exist for or against any set of specifics, only that all specifics be applied fairly to every role via one methodology. You're a CPM representative - who else was I supposed to talk to..? That's why I asked you who I needed to speak to in that earlier post. I wanted to discuss specifics. EDIT: Like - I'm cool with this EHP/Speed curve BS, I am, I just want you to understand that. But I also want to be clear that I want to discuss specifics and if you're not going to advocate or discuss specifics I need to know who I can talk to that will. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:39:00 - [635] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: If his only advocacy is that a certain set of specifics be employed, and it has been understood that my stance does not exist for or against any set of specifics, only that all specifics be applied fairly to every role via one methodology. You're a CPM representative - who else was I supposed to talk to..? That's why I asked you who I needed to speak to in that earlier post. I wanted to discuss specifics. EDIT: Like - I'm cool with this EHP/Speed curve BS, I am, I just want you to understand that. But I also want to be clear that I want to discuss specifics and if you're not going to advocate or discuss specifics I need to know who I can talk to that will. I am not going to advocate specifics, I am going to discuss them (and have been). This being Rattati's thread he is reading and assessing the merits of the various specific stances, and since I view it as out side of the purview of a CPM to try and "sell" CCP on one feedback from one portion of the community vs another I see no place for me to have an official advocacy on the specific numbers of this subject. That being established, of course I'm happy to discuss the possible pros and cons of specific iterations of the method with you or anyone else. Perhaps it's the lingering migraine from yesterday effecting my clarity but until your statement above it was not clear to me that your objections or desire for discussion had nothing to do with the Speed/eHP curve and everything to do with where specific raw (not relative) numbers (assault speed yes?) are pegged. Having established that now, please by all means if there are any further or additional details you feel have not been clearly brought to light elaborate on them, I'm happy to continue to listen and discuss. Cheers, Cross CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:42:00 - [636] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: MOOOAAAR HP - TANK LOGIS!!! Sounds like a blast, put me right next to my Amarr Sentinel brother. Logi's become slow logi stations and not a character that can follow the squad. Interesting... but I don't know how fun it would be until we tried it. Added "Red's Model" ... current speeds maintained, a substantial increase to base HP would be required to fit Logis to the curve. This page is all yours, so let me know if you'd like to tweak any of the values. > Google Doc < Personal Opinion: A different approach, but it definitely fit the curve :-) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:50:00 - [637] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: MOOOAAAR HP - TANK LOGIS!!! Sounds like a blast, put me right next to my Amarr Sentinel brother. Logi's become slow logi stations and not a character that can follow the squad. Interesting... but I don't know how fun it would be until we tried it. Added "Red's Model" ... current speeds maintained, a substantial increase to base HP would be required to fit Logis to the curve. This page is all yours, so let me know if you'd like to tweak any of the values. > Google Doc < Personal Opinion: A different approach, but it definitely fit the curve :-) You've both just make Pokey extremely happy CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:51:00 - [638] - Quote Thokk Nightshade wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Added "Thokk's Model" ... this page is all yours, so let me know if you'd like to tweak any of the values. If we want to tone it down just a touch so Logis CAN'T get into Scout territory unless the Scout is fully brick tanked, I'd be OK with that too. Thokk's Model Tuned ... Logi Sprint Multiplier: 1.5 ---> 1.45 MN Logi Base Movement: 5.30 ---> 5.20 AM Logi Base Movement: 4.80 ---> 4.85 Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to tweak. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Mr.Pepe Le Pew Art.of.Death 137	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:52:00 - [639] - Quote CeeJ Mantis wrote: I think there is meret to giving assauots more sprint speed so that they can apply pressure more readily, but strafe speed is the main reason assaults have such a lead in kills/spawn over other suits. It is hard to strafe as a commando/sentinel because you simply aren't as fast. Super straify, 650eHP cal scouts also do this strategy, and high hp + speed means hard to kill suits. And whether or not hit detection is an issue, you do have people from all around the world with different quality internet connections playing together, and some people benefit from their lack of relative connection quality. Especially people who change position rapidly. Let us not forget that assaults suits have the highest kills/spawn, and their ubiquity on the battlefield is likely indicative of their performance. They have speed, and hp, so they can tank well, and twitch back and forth. There is a reason that this proposal was created in the first place. I urge any developers read this to not focus too much on feedback from players that want theor suits to be powerful, and try looking at the data. Ok...the data says Assaults have higher kills than other suits. I can agree to that. I also agree that buffing the strafe will make assaults OP as heck. So let us reason: Leave Assaults as they are now. If CCP wants to balance the game further, making other roles more relevant, then look and tweak THOSE SUITS. Don't break something that is already nice! Give Commandos a tiny bit faster sprint speed. Leave strafe alone...they're heavies. Give them their respective racial slot layout of the Sentinels. Logis are great right now. Useful and if need be...give them more pg or cpu or both, but leave the current stats as they are right now. Speed is fine. A logi's role is to support their squad/team. Usually, a SMART logi will hook up to the tit of a Sentinel or surround himself with plenty of MEAT around him so he needs not speed. He needs better passive scans? Speed is fine. Base movement if anything COULD be nerfed but not necessary on some suits. HMG'S need a damage buff and range nerf. It makes sense. Take it from a guy who is pro to in (gameplay: mediocre at worst, advanced at best, not elite) at: assault, scout, sentinel, commando, logi. PLEASE DONT BREAK THIS GAME CCP. CEO / Art.of.Death
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 03:08:00 - [640] - Quote Cu' Chulainn wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Doc DDD wrote: Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks... 8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply. Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV. Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance? How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo. Hey to be honest, most my complaints with shields are being indirectly handled here. The minmatar assault mobility was an issue for me. But also it's dual tanking ability needs to be addressed. And then the ScR being addressed so I don't die when it looks at me from 0m - 100m away Min Assault is SPLIT between tanks NOT dual tanked. Speed is the best defense for us. Makes us susceptible to Sheild and Armor based weapons. We also have to use a balance of Energizer/Recharger + Regulator + Armor rep to compete against High damage weapons Like RR and ScrR. Min Assault was already nerfed once. Caldari w Overtank Sheilds and Complex Ferroscale plates...CBT rifle almost stands still against it. Flanking + Speed + dual regen is what I have. Don't listen to this Clown! Let me be more specific for you in particular... My issue with minmatar assault is when they run their 400 shield and 400 armor fit.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 04:06:00 - [641] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: ... I'm cool with this EHP/Speed curve ... A dedicated middle-ground slayer after these changes (situated above the 4.5m/s margin) ... why, again, we can't just bring Logi's up to par with Assaults and just hit Assault's EHP, keeping them both at the same speed. Added "Aeon's Model?". Attempted to fit the curve as best I could using the parameters above. Decreased base HP by 20% and minimized impact on movement speed, keeping it above the 4.5 margin. This page is all yours, so let me know if you'd like to tweak any of the values. > Google Doc < Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 04:25:00 - [642] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: I've been one since mordu's through the ups and downs and now we are buffing other suits and nerfing assaults so I was thinking why not just remove assaults and combine them with mandos..scouts will have speed followed by logis mandos heavies...No more high ehp speed suits, I think this would add more diversity as people would then need to use scouts for speed and mandos for slaying..I was against this but now I believe it might be the best solution, scouts = low hp but fast, logis low hp speed at current assaults, mandos slower than logis but faster than heavies..thoughts? Added "Heim's Model". Bridged the gap by adding HP to Logis and increasing Commando speed. This page is all yours, so let me know if you'd like to tweak any of the values. > Google Doc < Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Scheneighnay McBob Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary 7	Posted - 2015.05.30 04:28:00 - [643] - Quote 1 thing I'm confused about: where will my skinweave logi go? It's technically a basic med frame (Name was changed to "'Skinweave' Militia Minmatar Medium Frame"), but it still has a logi slot layout, and logi stats to boot. I wanna make sure it doesn't get ****** in the deal by staying slow with low eHP. Aloha snackbar
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 929	Posted - 2015.05.30 08:17:00 - [644] - Quote Thanks for the spreadsheets Adipem. Regarding "my" model, I wasn't stating what I personally think should happen, but what Rattati suggested he might do to tweak his original proposal, based on feedback. So really this an approximate Rattati's latest proposal. Though it wasn't formal, and was likely to change. Still, it's the latest word. Except I believe Min assault speeds are a little higher on the sheet than his design. If I was going to design a proposal, I'd go with this: Reduce Assault hp by 50 (half as much reduction as Aeon's tab). Reduce speed by about 0.3, which should get them onto the curve. Give assaults a bonus to movement speed, 1% per level. At level 5 this should give them speeds almost equal to what they have now. Increase logi and commando speeds as per Rattati's proposal. Speed and hp together is now the assault suit's defining speciality. They fit the curve, but are bonused to break it. Allowing them to be light weapon, frontal attack slayers, but unlike commandos, they rely on speed more than brute strength and high defence. Scouts will be faster, and logis will be almost as fast, but neither have the hp, fitting, or bonuses to beat assaults at frontal assault. Keep sprint and strafe multiplyers what they are now. Tweak stamina so it makes sense. Maybe tweak Min assault speed or hp a bit. The speed hp curve will be good. Assaults have a role defined by their bonus. Assaults as a whole will suffer a small nerf, which hopefully will balance them when compared to scouts and sentinels. (Though cloaks probably still need fixing for true balance).
wireless network Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 08:24:00 - [645] - Quote Give logis same highs/lows and base HP/speed as assaults. Start with that small change. Tweak from there as necessary.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 09:49:00 - [646] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Thanks for the spreadsheets Adipem. Regarding "my" model, I wasn't stating what I personally think should happen, but what Rattati suggested he might do to tweak his original proposal, based on feedback. So really this an approximate Rattati's latest proposal. Though it wasn't formal, and was likely to change. Still, it's the latest word. Except I believe Min assault speeds are a little higher on the sheet than his design. If I was going to design a proposal, I'd go with this: Reduce Assault hp by 50 (half as much reduction as Aeon's tab). Or maybe only around 30? Reduce speed by about 0.3, which should get them onto the curve. Give assaults a bonus to movement speed, 1% per level. At level 5 this should give them speeds almost equal to what they have now. Increase logi and commando speeds as per Rattati's proposal. Speed and hp together is now the assault suit's defining speciality. They fit the curve, but are bonused to break it. Allowing them to be light weapon, frontal attack slayers, but unlike commandos, they rely on speed more than brute strength and high defence. Scouts will be faster, and logis will be almost as fast, but neither have the hp, fitting, or bonuses to beat assaults at frontal assault. Keep sprint and strafe multiplyers what they are now. Tweak stamina so it makes sense. Maybe tweak Min assault speed or hp a bit. The speed hp curve will be good. Assaults have a role defined by their bonus. Assaults as a whole will suffer a small nerf, which hopefully will balance them when compared to scouts and sentinels. (Though cloaks probably still need fixing for true balance). Why would you nerf assault speed and then bonus assault speed?
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 929	Posted - 2015.05.30 10:08:00 - [647] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Why would you nerf assault speed and then bonus assault speed? Ratatti's suggestion was to fit assaults onto the curve, but buff their sprint modifier so they can still be fast. I don't like the idea of changing sprint modifiers as I think it's over complicated and not very transparent. Also, some people aren't happy with just having high sprint speed, they want high run speed aswell. So as an alternative I suggest giving assaults a speed bonus instead. Which would both be more transparent and maintain both good speed and sprint.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 11:24:00 - [648] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Every single post telling rattati no has been the most thinly veiled cover for self interest from people who want their top fit to remain the top fit AT ALL COSTS I would just like to state for the record that I've had no internet for nearly two months and even if I manage to get it back some time in the next few weeks I have very little interest in playing Dust again. My interest in this discussion is centered around fixing the game to the point where it's actually worth playing again. And I am against the assault nerf. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 11:28:00 - [649] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Why would you nerf assault speed and then bonus assault speed? Ratatti's suggestion was to fit assaults onto the curve, but buff their sprint modifier so they can still be fast. I don't like the idea of changing sprint modifiers as I think it's over complicated and not very transparent. Also, some people aren't happy with just having high sprint speed, they want high run speed aswell. So as an alternative I suggest giving assaults a speed bonus instead. Which would both be more transparent and maintain both good speed and sprint. i'm finding trouble seeing how any of this will result in actual balance. there are currently 33 pages concerning the balance of only two characteristics. power (ability to deal damage) defense (hp and regen) speed (movement, sprint, strafe, stamina/regen) ewar (dropsuit profile, Precision, and range) support (equipment) (slot layout and fitting capacity serves only as a means to increase these characteristics) these five characteristics are present for each and every suit in the game yet here we are only concerned with balancing two of them? how do we achieve overall balance by neglecting the other characteristics? how does only adjusting speed and HP level of dropsuits and roles achieve overall balance? where our current goal to keep players from achieving both high HP and speed values at the same time, it should be the opposite. high hp and high speed fits should be possible and allowed, but it should be balanced by reducing the other attributes. If i gave you 5 points to divide up among those five characteristics we would have balance.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 11:56:00 - [650] - Quote Deathwind, I hate to break it to you, but those attributes do not translate to 1:1 equivalent value. At all. Right now HP and speed have the sharpest curve to survivability just as profile and scans did four months ago. The HP to speed is the hardest ratio to tweak to a balance. Once we have that baseline the other attributes can also be tweaked to fine-tune the suits to equality of utility. The ewar system needs an overhaul in entire and I'm imagining Rattati eyeballing a broadsword whenever the prospect of trying to fix THAT disaster crosses his mind. Smoothing the sharp, jagged edges of the HP/speed ratio gives a baseline and will show how much speed vs. HP matters. Then the curve can be expanded or contracted as needed to even out the values. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 12:03:00 - [651] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Thanks for the spreadsheets Adipem. Regarding "my" model, I wasn't stating what I personally think should happen, but what Rattati suggested he might do to tweak his original proposal, based on feedback. So really this an approximate Rattati's latest proposal. Though it wasn't formal, and was likely to change. Still, it's the latest word. Except I believe Min assault speeds are a little higher on the sheet than his design. Excellent point. Renamed that sheet from "Varoth's Model" to "Rattati's +/- 0.3 Model". Varoth Drac wrote: If I was going to design a proposal, I'd go with this: Reduce Assault hp by 50 (half as much reduction as Aeon's tab). Or maybe only around 30? Reduce speed by about 0.3, which should get them onto the curve. Give assaults a bonus to movement speed, 1% per level. At level 5 this should give them speeds almost equal to what they have now. Increase logi and commando speeds as per Rattati's proposal. Speed and hp together is now the assault suit's defining speciality. They fit the curve, but are bonused to break it. Allowing them to be light weapon, frontal attack slayers, but unlike commandos, they rely on speed more than brute strength and high defence. Scouts will be faster, and logis will be almost as fast, but neither have the hp, fitting, or bonuses to beat assaults at frontal assault. Keep sprint and strafe multiplyers what they are now. Tweak stamina so it makes sense. Maybe tweak Min assault speed or hp a bit. The speed hp curve will be good. Assaults have a role defined by their bonus. Assaults as a whole will suffer a small nerf, which hopefully will balance them when compared to scouts and sentinels. (Though cloaks probably still need fixing for true balance). Added "Varoth's Model" * Assault Base HP: -50 * MN Assault Movement: -0.35 + 5% * Other Assault Movement: -0.3 + 5% * Logi Movement: Set to Rattati Prototype * Commando Movement: Set to Rattati Prototype * Sprint Multipliers held constant (1.4) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 12:45:00 - [652] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Deathwind, I hate to break it to you, but those attributes do not translate to 1:1 equivalent value. At all. Right now HP and speed have the sharpest curve to suitability just as profile and scans did four months ago. The HP to speed is the hardest ratio to tweak to a balance. Once we have that baseline the other attributes can also be tweaked to fine-tune the suits to equality of utility. The ewar system needs an overhaul in entire and I'm imagining Rattati eyeballing a broadsword whenever the prospect of trying to fix THAT disaster crosses his mind. Smoothing the sharp, jagged edges of the HP/speed ratio gives a baseline and will show how much speed vs. HP matters. Then the curve can be expanded or contracted as needed to even out the values. theyre not meant to be thought of as 1:1 ratio. Im only talking about that overall balance is more than speed vs hp. for example the charts show BASE hp vs speed and then a bricked version. how does that include the manipulation of slot layouts? a combo of shield extenders and kincats now made possible since PG mods were moved to highs?
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 13:13:00 - [653] - Quote Rattati can you make a version of the Bricked chart using Ferro Scales instead? KUNG FURY - By Laser Unicorns
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 13:36:00 - [654] - Quote Haerr wrote: I would prefer it if the slowest race of the slowest role of a frame size is as quick as the fastest race of the fastest role of frame size: Numbers! ,,Baseline, Frame,Light,5.35, Frame,Medium,4.75, Frame,Heavy,4.15, ,,, Role,Fast,0.15, Role,Medium,0, Role,Slow,-0.15, ,,, Race,Fast,0.15, Race,Medium,0, Race,Slow,-0.15, ,,, Frame,Role,Race, Light,Fast,Fast,5.65 Light,Fast,Normal,5.5 Light,Fast,Slow,5.35 Light,Normal,Fast,5.5 Light,Normal,Normal,5.35 Light,Normal,Slow,5.2 Light,Slow,Fast,5.35 Light,Slow,Normal,5.2 Light,Slow,Slow,5.05 Medium,Fast,Fast,5.05 Medium,Fast,Normal,4.9 Medium,Fast,Slow,4.75 Medium,Normal,Fast,4.9 Medium,Normal,Normal,4.75 Medium,Normal,Slow,4.6 Medium,Slow,Fast,4.75 Medium,Slow,Normal,4.6 Medium,Slow,Slow,4.45 Heavy,Fast,Fast,4.45 Heavy,Fast,Normal,4.3 Heavy,Fast,Slow,4.15 Heavy,Normal,Fast,4.3 Heavy,Normal,Normal,4.15 Heavy,Normal,Slow,4 Heavy,Slow,Fast,4.15 Heavy,Slow,Normal,4 Heavy,Slow,Slow,3.85 Scout: 2 EQ (Light, Fast) Light Frame: 2 EQ (Light, Normal) Pilot: (Light, Slow) Assault: 1 EQ (Medium, Fast) Medium Frame: 2 EQ (Medium, Normal) Logistics: 4 EQ (Medium, Slow) Commando: 1 EQ (Heavy, Fast) Heavy Frame: 0 EQ (Heavy, Normal) Sentinel: 0 EQ (Heavy, Slow) I also think that changing the sprint/strafe/backwards modifiers for a few specific suits is a reallly bad idea. Added "Haerr's Model" * Basic Med and Basic Light staggered to the right of the progression, so this chart can be compared against those of like type. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
RedBleach LeSanglant Molon Labe. RUST415 836	Posted - 2015.05.30 13:48:00 - [655] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: MOOOAAAR HP - TANK LOGIS!!! Sounds like a blast, put me right next to my Amarr Sentinel brother. Logi's become slow logi stations and not a character that can follow the squad. Interesting... but I don't know how fun it would be until we tried it. Added "Red's Model" ... current speeds maintained, a substantial increase to base HP would be required to fit Logis to the curve. This page is all yours, so let me know if you'd like to tweak any of the values. > Google Doc < Personal Opinion: A different approach, but it definitely fit the curve :-) This made me laugh, Thanks Adipem. And wow would this change the game.... I mean it is a complete shift. :) The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 3	Posted - 2015.05.30 14:01:00 - [656] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Haerr wrote: I would prefer it if the slowest race of the slowest role of a frame size is as quick as the fastest race of the fastest role of frame size: Numbers! "Haerr's Model" * Basic Med and Basic Light staggered to the right of the progression (like type comparison). * Assumed increase to Logi HP, decrease to Assault HP. Please advise. Don't forget the Pilot suits! But yeah, HP for various roles made to fit the curve. KUNG FURY - By Laser Unicorns
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 3	Posted - 2015.05.30 14:08:00 - [657] - Quote I think that the Assaults strength (comparative strength towards Logis, Commandos, and Sentinels) comes more from the ability to dictate how and when an engagement happens through mobility and regen. While the other dropsuit roles have, more or less, clearly defined roles Assaults do not. How Stuff lines up atm. Scan Profile: Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel Total Base HP: Sentinel > Commando > Assault > Logistics > Scout Movement Speed: Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel Stamina: Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel Stamina Regen: Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel Shield Recharge Rate: Scout > Assault > Logistcs/Sentinel > Commando Shield Recharge Delay: Scout > Sentinel > Logistics > Assault/Commando Shield Depleted Recharge Delay: Scout > Sentinel > Logistics > Assault/Commando There is a clear problem with Shield Stats since they have yet to receive attention since Rattati took over the helm, they don't particularly line up in any way except for Commandos being universally boned. But with the attention that Speed vs HP and Logi & Commandos are getting atm it is bound to get at least some attention. My preferences: HP: Logistics > Medium Frames > Assaults Movement Speed: Assaults > Medium Frames > Logistics Stamina & Stamina Regen: Assaults > Medium Frames > Logistics HP Regen: Assaults > Medium Frames > Logistics EQ Slots: (4)Logistics > (2)Medium Frames > (1)Assaults So for me the defined roles of the Assaults are: mobility and regen (and enough HP to make use of them). Edit: I made a thing to look at various dropsuit stats and compare them to each other and between races. Google docs LINK KUNG FURY - By Laser Unicorns
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 15:50:00 - [658] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Speed and hp together is now the assault suit's defining speciality. They fit the curve, but are bonused to break it. This is the one specific thing that I am - as of now - completely opposed to. I do not care which role it is, but no role should be set up to break the curve or the curve itself ceases to hold the merits it now does. The Assault needs a stronger and clear role vision and it's own uniqueness, no question about that but no role can have the uniqueness of being the one that is the best in combined speed, HP, and dps. Even if that role is not possessing the highest raw numbers in any given area - presume that the "new" curve breaking assault cannot, even when fit, gain nearly scout mobility numbers, sentential HP numbers, or commando dps numbers - it still has balance breaking mechanical virtues. Speed, HP and dps are fundamental to the nature of an FPS having a single role be defined as the best mechanically, at holding their combined values is definitively imbalanced, just as have a single rifle with the best combined force projection, sustained dps, and alpha is an imbalanced design. Any, role, rifle, frame or fit being 'the best' is exactly what should not at any time be considered by development otherwise we get things like the old TAR, the double rep+double hardened maddy, the days of "scout 514", the old Cal Logi w/extender bonus, the old small missile turret that let people exceed 30 kills a match with ease and functionally no risk, etc. Saying something is meant to be a slayer suit (which the assault of course is meant to be) does not mean and can never mean that it is "the best suit" and any suit that has curve breaking HP+Speed teeters on if not out right becomes "the best" and that is before we even consider potential dps output which is certainly an asset relevant to the role of more than the Assault (it's not the only slayer in the game) and has an impact on the utility and survival of any role (if a role is meant to have less other features including it's survivability must counter balance that lack of being able to fight back and defend itself effectively). To be specialized is by definition to be highly skilled in a specific field. That is not equal to being above average in the combined value of all fields, that's not a specialization, that's an imbalance. We need one universal and equally applied game wide method, 'one role to rule them all' no matter which role that is. King of the hill roulette isn't good balance, we've had far too much of it in the course of Dusts history and it has to end not be codified as "okay" for one role to retain in perpetuity. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 15:53:00 - [659] - Quote wireless network wrote: Give logis same highs/lows and base HP/speed as assaults. Start with that small change. Tweak from there as necessary. I think a normalized medium frame line would still have to be tweak to properly fall within the curve as it relates to all other frames in the game, but as long as that's accounted for I see no reason to oppose that (actually this is one of the three methods I've mentioned a few times in this thread). It would uphold the curve which is the key element. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 16:07:00 - [660] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Why would you nerf assault speed and then bonus assault speed? Ratatti's suggestion was to fit assaults onto the curve, but buff their sprint modifier so they can still be fast. I don't like the idea of changing sprint modifiers as I think it's over complicated and not very transparent. Also, some people aren't happy with just having high sprint speed, they want high run speed aswell. So as an alternative I suggest giving assaults a speed bonus instead. Which would both be more transparent and maintain both good speed and sprint. i'm finding trouble seeing how any of this will result in actual balance. there are currently 33 pages concerning the balance of only two characteristics. power (ability to deal damage) defense (hp and regen) mobility (movement, sprint, strafe, stamina/regen) ewar (dropsuit profile, Precision, and range) support (equipment) (slot layout and fitting capacity serves only as a means to increase these characteristics) these five characteristics are present for each and every suit in the game yet here we are only concerned with balancing two of them? how do we achieve overall balance by neglecting the other characteristics? how does only adjusting speed and HP level of dropsuits and roles achieve overall balance? where our current goal to keep players from achieving both high HP and speed values at the same time, it should be the opposite. high hp and high speed fits should be possible and allowed, but it should be balanced by reducing the other attributes. If i gave you 5 points to divide up among those five characteristics we would have balance. The type of balance you describe cannot be applied without establishing ratios so that the effective value of each raw stat is on a 1:1 scale since clearly the raw numbers do not hold 1:1 value. 2 dB points is not equal to 2 points of stamina, 2 m/s move speed is not equal to 2 HP, etc. Until ratios are established we cannot define the actual content of those "5 points" you describe above and thus cannot divide them successfully. We need ratios to be able to move toward the type of balancing method you describe, which is AFAIK why the OP exists, because being able to move towards the more full fundamental balance you describe is desirable, but it requires a context which is currently lacking. Thus applying a framework that compares the relative values of things that have similar effects (of course no two stats will ever have the same effect or they'd just be one stat) in this case general survivability within matches, is called for. Baselines need to be established, for stats and for their modifiers (slot layouts and skills) but intermingling those two is a recipe for madness. It is find and good to say that all things should be considered, and you are quite right they should all be considered, but clearly considering them simultaneously without baseline frameworks in place is ineffective within a complex system like Dust, if it were effective we'd have had tighter balance a long time ago not a rotating FotM for years as things have been, especially not with the use and utility margins that have been recurrent. So, how do we achieve balance by balancing only two characteristics? We don't. Just like we don't achieve balance by trying to (in computer parlance) 'brute force' a solution by weighing everything at once without a frame work to assess what value or effective weight each factor holds. Thus we need to take an iterative approach, as the OP does, by defining frameworks. With those in place we can weigh all factors. Cheers, Cross CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 16:37:00 - [661] - Quote There's a hilarious level of irony in that the Assault came before the Commando and somehow is the one up for debate as to what role it plays. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 16:49:00 - [662] - Quote Haerr wrote: I think that the Assaults strength (comparative strength towards Logis, Commandos, and Sentinels) comes more from the ability to dictate how and when an engagement happens through mobility and regen. While the other dropsuit roles have, more or less, clearly defined roles Assaults do not. How Stuff lines up atm. Scan Profile: Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel Total Base HP: Sentinel > Commando > Assault > Logistics > Scout Movement Speed: Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel Stamina: Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel Stamina Regen: Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel Shield Recharge Rate: Scout > Assault > Logistcs/Sentinel > Commando Shield Recharge Delay: Scout > Sentinel > Logistics > Assault/Commando Shield Depleted Recharge Delay: Scout > Sentinel > Logistics > Assault/Commando There is a clear problem with Shield Stats since they have yet to receive attention since Rattati took over the helm, they don't particularly line up in any way except for Commandos being universally boned. But with the attention that Speed vs HP and Logi & Commandos are getting atm it is bound to get at least some attention. While acknowledging that applying a 1:1 ratio is not accurate, and that this is the very reason we need ratios like the Speed vs HP curve established looking at net hierarchy still holds some merit especially as we have some numbers on usage, and relative KDR (though I still say raw KDR is a bad stat for many reasons, it is one of our only established data points) so we can frame the effects somewhat. Here's the net ranking from the current hierarchy as you've outlined above. Scan Profile: Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel Total Base HP: Sentinel > Commando > Assault > Logistics > Scout Movement Speed: Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel Stamina: Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel Stamina Regen: Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel Sub-total a: Scout 21 > Assault 20 > Logistics 13 > Commando 12 > Sentinel 9 Breaking shield skills into their own bracket in light of your accurate assessment about them. Shield Recharge Rate: Scout > Assault > Logistcs/Sentinel > Commando Shield Recharge Delay: Scout > Sentinel > Logistics > Assault/Commando Shield Depleted Recharge Delay: Scout > Sentinel > Logistics > Assault/Commando Subtotal b: Scout 15 > Sentinel 10.5 > Logistics 8.5 > Assault 7 > Commando 4 Combined totals: Scout 36 > Assault 27 > Logistics 21.5 > Sentinel 19.5 > Commando 16 Now, assuming that the amount of each is fit within a proper ratio as the OP suggests and as has been generally supported we should be seeing final combined values that are essentially equal. When that point of balance is reached the uniqueness of the role in question would then be applied to enhance their value. Sentinels have their damage resistances which magnify the value of their HP but do not mitigate their speed drawback. Scouts gain advantages to infiltration and eWar (with a nod to the eWar system still needing some very code heavy work) thus enhancing the applicable value of their speed while not mitigating the short coming of their light HP totals. Logistics gain advantages to the use of equipment, which does nothing to alter the balance of their mid range Speed and HP values Assaults gain advantages to damage output, which does nothing to alter the balance of their mid range HP and Speed values Commandos gain advantages to damage output, which does nothing to alter the balance of their lower mobility higher HP values Clearly, there are things that need improved from base state in the list above. Scouts, Logi, Assaults, and Commandos could all use a look at their racial skills, for internal role balance and utility. Commandos and Assaults need some extra attention to provide them with uniqueness in light of how much the nature of their roles currently overlap. As noted eWar needs it's own work which directly impacts everyone (arguably more heavily scouts as infiltrators). The one thing that does not need work in the above theoretical game state is that speed and HP are now balanced between all roles, in part because none of the mid range roles - Commando, Assault, Logistics - gain any racial bonuses to Speed or HP. And the outlier roles, Sentinels and Scouts, do not receive any bonuses which mitigate their built in role limits (speed and HP respectively). It doesn't give us game wide balance on its own, but keeping the ratio clean and intact does at least allow one aspect of balance to be accounted for so that others can be more effectively tuned. The key to watch out for in all of this is not allowing any sub-aspect of Speed or eHP to become falsely valued at a 1:1 with another aspect just because they are both in the same category. Having high Sta and Sta Regen for example (or good shield delay, and depleted delay) aren't as valuable as base speed, sprint speed, or buffer HP. Because the secondary values like shield delay, are force multipliers on the base values like raw HP, so what they are multiplying matters a great deal. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Ghost Steps G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 16	Posted - 2015.05.30 17:01:00 - [663] - Quote Still no thoughts on the shield recharge delay on calmando or minmando?, i think ill come back later. Caldari scout bonus sucks but i like to honor my name.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 17:38:00 - [664] - Quote New Charts!!! * Added Scatter Plot for Speed / Max HP * Added Scatter Plot Speed / Max Ferro HP > Google Doc < :: tinkers w/spreadsheet :: Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 17:54:00 - [665] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Assaults gain advantages to damage output, which does nothing to alter the balance of their mid range HP and Speed values Sort of...? I mean, it's not directly damage and some would argue that some effects (reload speed, which the commando gets anyway and dispersion which some of us are convinced is just a placebo) have little or nothing to do with damage output. Moreover, we get opportunity for increased combat performance. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 18:20:00 - [666] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Why would you nerf assault speed and then bonus assault speed? Ratatti's suggestion was to fit assaults onto the curve, but buff their sprint modifier so they can still be fast. I don't like the idea of changing sprint modifiers as I think it's over complicated and not very transparent. Also, some people aren't happy with just having high sprint speed, they want high run speed aswell. So as an alternative I suggest giving assaults a speed bonus instead. Which would both be more transparent and maintain both good speed and sprint. i'm finding trouble seeing how any of this will result in actual balance. there are currently 33 pages concerning the balance of only two characteristics. power (ability to deal damage) defense (hp and regen) mobility (movement, sprint, strafe, stamina/regen) ewar (dropsuit profile, Precision, and range) support (equipment) (slot layout and fitting capacity serves only as a means to increase these characteristics) these five characteristics are present for each and every suit in the game yet here we are only concerned with balancing two of them? how do we achieve overall balance by neglecting the other characteristics? how does only adjusting speed and HP level of dropsuits and roles achieve overall balance? where our current goal to keep players from achieving both high HP and speed values at the same time, it should be the opposite. high hp and high speed fits should be possible and allowed, but it should be balanced by reducing the other attributes. If i gave you 5 points to divide up among those five characteristics we would have balance. The type of balance you describe cannot be applied without establishing ratios so that the effective value of each raw stat is on a 1:1 scale since clearly the raw numbers do not hold 1:1 value. 2 dB points is not equal to 2 points of stamina, 2 m/s move speed is not equal to 2 HP, etc. Until ratios are established we cannot define the actual content of those "5 points" you describe above and thus cannot divide them successfully. We need ratios to be able to move toward the type of balancing method you describe, which is AFAIK why the OP exists, because being able to move towards the more full fundamental balance you describe is desirable, but it requires a context which is currently lacking. Thus applying a framework that compares the relative values of things that have similar effects (of course no two stats will ever have the same effect or they'd just be one stat) in this case general survivability within matches, is called for. Baselines need to be established, for stats and for their modifiers (slot layouts and skills) but intermingling those two is a recipe for madness. It is find and good to say that all things should be considered, and you are quite right they should all be considered, but clearly considering them simultaneously without baseline frameworks in place is ineffective within a complex system like Dust, if it were effective we'd have had tighter balance a long time ago not a rotating FotM for years as things have been, especially not with the use and utility margins that have been recurrent. So, how do we achieve balance by balancing only two characteristics? We don't. Just like we don't achieve balance by trying to (in computer parlance) 'brute force' a solution by weighing everything at once without a frame work to assess what value or effective weight each factor holds. Thus we need to take an iterative approach, as the OP does, by defining frameworks. With those in place we can weigh all factors. Cheers, Cross Yes and that's what annoys me. We haven't even established a basic design for how things should interact with each other. I'm not a fan of designing five separate things first and then going back to see if they work and fit together. It's backwards. Like making puzzle pieces first and then printing the picture on the pieces after, instead of taking the overall picture and then breaking it up into separate pieces. Cooking a meal for example, usually starts with the recipe. You don't go and buy ingredients first without a recipe. That what were doing. Were taking the ingredients of the game and balancing them without a recipe for reference. I don't have high hopes for the end result using this method because we don't even know if wee are including all the necessary aspects that we will later want to balance together or how we even want them to interact with each other.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 18:20:00 - [667] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Assaults gain advantages to damage output, which does nothing to alter the balance of their mid range HP and Speed values Sort of...? I mean, it's not directly damage and some would argue that some effects (reload speed, which the commando gets anyway and dispersion which some of us are convinced is just a placebo) have little or nothing to do with damage output. Moreover, we get opportunity for increased combat performance. As noted in the post you are quoting, as well as many of my posts before it (including a CPM thread dedicated specifically to that very subject) the current Assault bonuses aren't performing as they should and need love. The post you are quoting is a theoretical game state with the Speed/HP ratio applied. As stated in the post it is not a representation of the current game state. Current Speed and HP values are not properly balance among roles, eWar is not currently functioning in an optimal state, shield vs armor could use a look, the conflicts/overlaps in role between Assault and Commandos would ideally be addressed, racial skills for the logistics, scout, and assault classes could all use improvement for internal role balance alone (and in some cases inter-role balance as well), etc. The post you are quoting is much more of a conceptual target (with nods to challenges faced in reaching those targets), what it is not is an assessment of how things currently stand. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 18:30:00 - [668] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Yes and that's what annoys me. We haven't even established a basic design for how things should interact with each other. I'm not a fan of designing five separate things first and then going back to see if they work and fit together. It's backwards. Like making puzzle pieces first and then printing the picture on the pieces after, instead of taking the overall picture and then breaking it up into separate pieces. Cooking a meal for example, usually starts with the recipe. You don't go and buy ingredients first without a recipe. That what were doing. Were taking the ingredients of the game and balancing them without a recipe for reference. I don't have high hopes for the end result using this method. I direct you to CCP Rattati's quote below CCP Rattati wrote: The designs need to make sense, intuitively. In order of priority, imagine a pyramid Slot progression needs to make sense, within roles and between roles PG/CPU capacity as they relate to slots and their layout HP and Speed are inverse, that's just physics and again intuitive These 3 principles form the foundation for Dropsuits. While they don't make sense, all the small things on top don't really matter. That's why I am not tackling role bonuses, because the foundation is cracked and not worth building on. This is not some haphazard thing being slapped together with on concept of how it will interact or ways in which it could fit together but even the best laid plans need iterative execution to see how the details play out. The recipe is as CCP Rattati outlines above Slot progression needs to make sense, within roles and between roles PG/CPU capacity as they relate to slots and their layout needs to be established in a game wide method HP and Speed need to have their naturally inverse relationship properly employed game wide within every role and context Establishing these things is the recipe, applying detail work is the "cooking" in this context. After all you certainly don't start masuring out amounts of things before you bother to check the labels for what those things are (or without knowing how they effect the flavor of the dish). PS ~ Total side note, but I actually do start cooking without a recipe all the time, for cooking it can be quite fun, but no dispute that it's poor practice for game design, that's why game wide methods like the OP need to happen. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Oswald Rehnquist 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 18:33:00 - [669] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Assaults gain advantages to damage output, which does nothing to alter the balance of their mid range HP and Speed values Sort of...? I mean, it's not directly damage and some would argue that some effects (reload speed, which the commando gets anyway and dispersion which some of us are convinced is just a placebo) have little or nothing to do with damage output. If assaults end up being faster speed lower ehp than logis, I think assault regen stats could be tweaked to match the faster play style, in that perhaps instead of nearly matching scouts in ewar, they can nearly match scouts the regen (I'm not saying it is or isn't balanced it was just an example)? Since its only ehp speed that is on the curve, the other stats are up for grabs are they not? I mean there is a lot to play around here. Obviously moderate ehp and regen has proven itself in the past. I can't really think of a simple synchronous unique value for a slower assault. So more of a silly idea on my part, but if the assaults end up being slower than logis, some aspects of the old crusader suits could be added to the assault suits. Doesn't necessarily have to be a racial, but just something on the suit boosts various stats like a fraction increase to various base stats of other assault suits. Could be a tiny fraction that increases the more assaults that are next to each other. Would make assaults very pack like, don't know if it'll be any good though but it would be unique. Essentially, I guess I'm saying that its only ehp speed thats getting paved, the other stats and or functions are still up for grabs. Below 28 dB
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 19:33:00 - [670] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Since its only ehp speed that is on the curve, the other stats are up for grabs are they not? I mean there is a lot to play around here. My thoughts exactly. Nail down the speed / HP model, then tune other stats as needed to ensure that roles remain distinct. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. RUST415 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 19:49:00 - [671] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Rattati, I beg of you: Adjust eHP instead of speed for assault if they don't fit on the curve. They've needed an HP nerf for a while. Don't screw with their mobility though. That would be like giving the scrambler rifle ridiculous kick or something to balance it, instead of just nerfing the damage a tiny bit. HP is the problem here, and I can personally promise that. They have so many slots that they can use kincats, is my opinion. This is an overly-specific discussion to engage in, but there are two comments to raise about kincats: (1) They only affect sprint speed, which is crucially different than non-sprint speed. Aeon points out that sprint speed doesn't increase strafing speeds (unfortunately an element of tanking), and this also affects mobility given the terrain issues the game experiences. (2) Low slots aren't equitably important across all racial variants for the obvious reasons. Saying "well slap a kincat on it and then you'll be good!" kinda implies that suits which can spare the low slot automatically fare better in your envisaged new design. That doesn't sound fantastic to me. Ultimately this reasoning ignores one of the cornerstones of the developing conversation. If assaults need to give up a slot to be "viable" in terms of speed, then assaults' utility vs logi's have to be evaluated with one less low slot attributed to assaults. Long term roadmap by Aeon Amadi Have a pony
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 20:24:00 - [672] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: If assaults need to give up a slot to be "viable" in terms of speed, then assaults' utility vs logi's have to be evaluated with one less low slot attributed to assaults. Not arguing against the merit of your concern, but any number of if/then's could be brought up here. Scouts need to run damps, so X. Heavies need to run plates, so Y. None of these arguments detract from Rattati's points on Page 1. Ultimately, if Logis (or Scouts, or Commandos) are out-assaulting Assaults, then other attributes can be tuned until said overlap is corrected. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. RUST415 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 20:36:00 - [673] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: If assaults need to give up a slot to be "viable" in terms of speed, then assaults' utility vs logi's have to be evaluated with one less low slot attributed to assaults. Not arguing against the merit of your concern, but any number of if/then's could be brought up here. Scouts need to run damps, so X. Heavies need to run plates, so Y. None of these arguments detract from Rattati's points on Page 1. Ultimately, if Logis (or Scouts, or Commandos) are out-assaulting Assaults, then other attributes can be tuned until said overlap is corrected. I did say it was an overly specific discussion . Chiefly the reason I bothered posting it at all is because I think it's important not to fall into reasoning which attempts to brush problems under the rug out of hand. Long term roadmap by Aeon Amadi Have a pony
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 20:55:00 - [674] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: The entire balancing act that exists, that is the product of all the balance/rebalance/nerf/buff of the last several years, which is pretty damn close to being done ElOperator I can respect most of your opinions, but the entire post you made, especially THIS is either the most naive, or the most DELIBERATELY self-serving post I have EVER seen you make. There's nothing naive about recognizing the progress thats been made, especially in the last 9-12 months, in actually balancing this game and getting it play smoothly (the current connections/latency fiasco notwithstanding). The "self-service" in my post is the point of the post . The statement I'm addressing has been a basis of my perspective and I'm saying so. Now, again. The balance isn't even close to done. I disagree. Its not currently perfect, and theres definitely work to be done BUT the work that has been done so far has in many ways been effective. What were countless variables have become constants. The danger now is in turning constants back into new variables endlessly and because of that the overall gameplay never actually stabilizing and becoming a reliable game to play. We all want people to come, play, enjoy and spend money. Spending money happens most and best when people know what theyre buying. Progression is only balanced if you think that new players are properly intended as stat padding gunfodder. Until new players can remain in areas void of the supertrystompsquads they ARE gunfodder. My understanding of the phenomena is that "This is New Eden". I personally make it a point to not run fullproto fits pubs, advocated for creation of The Academy and even in the recent "Portal Testing" sticky brought up the creation under Special Contracts some sort of non-stat training area. We still have no true balance between shields and armor. It's close but nowhere near resolved. But its close. AV/V is COMPLETELY UNBALANCED. Hm. Despite your capslock I'll take this as what it hopefully is, which is that AV/V is still having its kinks worked out. I don't pilot much, though I'm working on it, so have very little relative input from that perspective, but I do AV. So " COMPLETELY UNBALANCED" as an overall assessment I can't agree with though I won't disagree with it either. Like most orher things tho its definitely been worked on and is in a much better place than it has been before. Room to improve? Sure. The suits do not have equal utility within their class. Why would they? Based on the variety of stats and bonuses the suits are largely worthwhile in some aspects and less so in others, with fitting flexibility allowing for either deeper specialization or broader generalization from the base. The classes do not have equal utility with each other. Same as above, Why whould they? The class utility is the class utility, if you're looking for other utility there're other classes. Rock, Paper, Scissors. Pick one, and if you lose maybe pick something else. The weapons are completely segregated by utility. If balance was even close to extant all of them would be used more or less equaly. Again, Why would or even should all weapons be being used evenly? Any strategy game I've ever played, from chess to Command and Conquer to Axis and Allies theres never been any expectation that I would use or deploy assets evenly in a 1:1 fashion. My national military doesn't have or use strictly 1 machinegun: 1 ICBM. That we don't have only 16 weapons total with a limit of one type on the field at a time also begs the same question. And the balance you say is almost there is A revolving door of jacked up and screwed. Revolving door that just keeps spinning so long as work achieved becomes work scrapped in favor of work to be achieved that then becomes work scrapped in favor of ......... What rattati proposes is to set a baseline, so it can actually be determined what the value ratio between speed and HP actually is. So long as the wiggle strafe is considered a viable tactic because it breaks hit detection, wedwe do not, and NEVER WILL be able to balance ANYTHING. Wiggle strafe being viable because it breaks hit detection is a product of not yet finding a solution to the hit detection issue, not the other way around. And the more rewriting and deeper we go in redrawing stats without fixing hit detection the farther out of that hole we'll have to climb once a hit detection solution occurs. If hit detection (blue shielding) is unsolvable then sure, lets proceed. If its still able to be remedied then that should happen first else we're just trying to level a jenga tower while we bounce it on a trampoline. Every single post telling rattati no has been the most thinly veiled cover for self interest from people who want their top fit to remain the top fit AT ALL COST. This I take as a comment to the slayer/assault community since I primary as a logi and my logis are anything but top fit. And "top fit" in the sense I think you're stating it is far from any "goal" I have for my chosen class. Welcome to the meta tree shaking again. Figure it out and try to help make progress because "this far and no farther" battle cries from people who enjoy a position of ability to at-will trash the majority of the playerbase through use of abundant resources and near unlimited ability to casually drop proto everything gets rapidly old and uninspiring. And I guess Welcome to Persistent Role-Playing Universes, where you're big and bad until you round the corner and find someone bigger and badder than you. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 21:12:00 - [675] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: [quote=el OPERATOR] ... SlayerLogis aren't coming back like you think, never were. Question about that set of figures that does finally appear on page 17, are those cpu/pg values proposed the final values? Pre-skills values? And 10% fitting on eq, that is also in addition to existing logi bonuses, correct? Are eq load costs going to be modified at all? Are those eq bonuses going to be flat or racially varied? I've kept up on the logistics/support thread and recognize much of this stemming from there so definitley see the progress but the last 20 pages is resteering us into overall wash territory at risk of nerfs. 30 some odd pages now. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 22:16:00 - [676] - Quote Ghost Steps wrote: Still no thoughts on the shield recharge delay on calmando or minmando?, i think ill come back later. Additional slot creates opportunity for additional regen capability? Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 297	Posted - 2015.05.30 22:32:00 - [677] - Quote Please. Please. PLEASE. PLEASE! Calmando 3/2 at proto. Calsent at proto is 4/1, make the commando different, can be the logical argument. I use these suits religiously already, a 3/2 slot count would enable Calmando to command respect at last. Please. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.05.30 22:50:00 - [678] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. We can have dynamic strafe speeds as well, so assault can be slower than logi, sprint faster, and still have superior strafe speed. This is going to exacerbate the extant problem, sir. I respectfully request that you not actively provide avenues for people to exploit the hit detection in the game. This is first, last and all reasons in between why strafing is the most important consideration. Heimdallr69 copped to as much when I called them out on it. All of the others who are crying about the change have studiously ignored my commentary. I have repeatedly tried to bring this to light, as it is easy to use and provably effective. The fact that this is the primary and most successful "tactic" it shows that strafe speed is a problem. Being rewarded for standing in the open and juking back and forth two meters rapidly is quite frankly nonsensical, especially when it is MOST effective within the optimal ranges of the most destructive CQC weapons in the game. This is how a calassault duels a heavy and doesn't take more than a quarter of their shields while utterly destroying his opponent at 20m versus a boundless HMG. This is not "skill" it is a mechanical failure on the part of either the client or the server. Nono, it just means, I have the means to always have assault and scouts have the highest strafe speed, regardless of walking/running speeds. Wouldn't that eventually end up in situations where assaults strafe faster than they walk forward? Or do you mean things like nerf walk speed 10% and reduce the strafe speed multiplier by 10%? Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. RUST415 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 04:37:00 - [679] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. We can have dynamic strafe speeds as well, so assault can be slower than logi, sprint faster, and still have superior strafe speed. This is going to exacerbate the extant problem, sir. I respectfully request that you not actively provide avenues for people to exploit the hit detection in the game. This is first, last and all reasons in between why strafing is the most important consideration. Heimdallr69 copped to as much when I called them out on it. All of the others who are crying about the change have studiously ignored my commentary. I have repeatedly tried to bring this to light, as it is easy to use and provably effective. The fact that this is the primary and most successful "tactic" it shows that strafe speed is a problem. Being rewarded for standing in the open and juking back and forth two meters rapidly is quite frankly nonsensical, especially when it is MOST effective within the optimal ranges of the most destructive CQC weapons in the game. This is how a calassault duels a heavy and doesn't take more than a quarter of their shields while utterly destroying his opponent at 20m versus a boundless HMG. This is not "skill" it is a mechanical failure on the part of either the client or the server. It's a reality of how the game plays. Until something changes in that ecosystem it's silly to try to stuff our fingers in our ears and go "lalalala" about the consequences of the mechanics. Long term roadmap by Aeon Amadi Have a pony
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.31 10:02:00 - [680] - Quote >Google Doc< Each model now includes base movement and sprint charts for the following loadout scenarios: * Base HP (No Shields, No Plates) * Max Ferro HP (Max Shields, Max Ferro Plates) * Max HP (Max Shields, Max Complex Plates) Additionally, R-¦ values are now displayed for each speed/hp curve! Regression Summary Overall (Sum of R-¦) 93.4% - Rattati's Prototype (5.602) 93.3% - Aeon's? (5.6) 93.2% - Heim's (5.594) 93.2% - Adipem's (5.59) 92.3% - Red's (5.536) 91.5% - Haerr's (5.49) 91.4% - Varoth's (5.482) 87.8% - Ripley's (5.269) 87.2% - Booby's (5.229) 87.1% - Spero's (5.224) 86.3% - Thokk's (5.178) 84.5% - Rattati's +/- 0.3 (5.068) 76.4% - Current (4.582) Base HP (R-¦ Movement, R-¦ Sprint) 96.9% - Heim's (0.969,0.969) 96.3% - Red's (0.963,0.963) 95.1% - Adipem's (0.951,0.951) 94.7% - Varoth's (0.947,0.947) 93.7% - Aeon's? (0.937,0.937) 93.1% - Rattati's Prototype (0.931,0.931) 93% - Thokk's (0.93,0.93) 91.6% - Haerr's (0.916,0.916) 91.35% - Booby's (0.949,0.878) 90.65% - Ripley's (0.949,0.864) 90.1% - Spero's (0.851,0.951) 87.95% - Rattati's +/- 0.3 (0.95,0.809) 82.5% - Current (0.825,0.825) Max Ferro HP (R-¦ Movement, R-¦ Sprint) 95.3% - Rattati's Prototype (0.953,0.953) 95.1% - Aeon's? (0.951,0.951) 93.3% - Adipem's (0.933,0.933) 92.9% - Haerr's (0.929,0.929) 92.1% - Heim's (0.921,0.921) 90.7% - Varoth's (0.907,0.907) 90.2% - Red's (0.902,0.902) 87.6% - Ripley's (0.938,0.814) 86.7% - Spero's (0.802,0.932) 85.95% - Booby's (0.919,0.8) 83.85% - Rattati's +/- 0.3 (0.918,0.759) 83.2% - Thokk's (0.832,0.832) 74.2% - Current (0.742,0.742) Max HP (R-¦ Movement, R-¦ Sprint) 91.7% - Rattati's Prototype (0.917,0.917) 91.2% - Aeon's? (0.912,0.912) 91.1% - Adipem's (0.911,0.911) 90.7% - Heim's (0.907,0.907) 90.3% - Red's (0.903,0.903) 90% - Haerr's (0.9,0.9) 88.7% - Varoth's (0.887,0.887) 85.2% - Ripley's (0.913,0.791) 84.4% - Spero's (0.778,0.91) 84.15% - Booby's (0.898,0.785) 82.7% - Thokk's (0.827,0.827) 81.6% - Rattati's +/- 0.3 (0.898,0.734) 72.4% - Current (0.724,0.724) Note: Max Ferro and Max HP curves assumes each Commando receives +1 low slot. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.31 16:13:00 - [681] - Quote I'd like to say that I am fine with the proposed plan of nerfing assault base speed while keeping the sprint and strafe speeds he safe (as Rattati stated he wanted to do). I might hate it when its out, but I'm willing to at least give it a try. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.31 16:16:00 - [682] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: > Google Doc < Each model now includes base movement and sprint charts for the following loadout scenarios: * Base HP (No Shields, No Plates) * Max Ferro HP (Max Shields, Max Ferro Plates) * Max HP (Max Shields, Max Complex Plates) Additionally, R-¦ values are now displayed for each scenario's speed/hp curve! In essence, the closer the R-¦ value is to 1, the tighter the data fit the curve. R-¦ Rankings Base HP Ranking - Model Name (R-¦ Movement, R-¦ Sprint) 96.9% - Heim's (0.969,0.969) 96.3% - Red's (0.963,0.963) 95.1% - Adipem's (0.951,0.951) 94.7% - Varoth's (0.947,0.947) 93.7% - Aeon's? (0.937,0.937) 93.1% - Rattati's Prototype (0.931,0.931) 93% - Thokk's (0.93,0.93) 91.6% - Haerr's (0.916,0.916) 91.35% - Booby's (0.949,0.878) 90.65% - Ripley's (0.949,0.864) 90.1% - Spero's (0.851,0.951) 87.95% - Rattati's +/- 0.3 (0.95,0.809) 82.5% - Current (0.825,0.825) Max Ferro HP Ranking - Model Name (R-¦ Movement, R-¦ Sprint) 95.3% - Rattati's Prototype (0.953,0.953) 95.1% - Aeon's? (0.951,0.951) 93.3% - Adipem's (0.933,0.933) 92.9% - Haerr's (0.929,0.929) 92.1% - Heim's (0.921,0.921) 90.7% - Varoth's (0.907,0.907) 90.2% - Red's (0.902,0.902) 87.6% - Ripley's (0.938,0.814) 86.7% - Spero's (0.802,0.932) 85.95% - Booby's (0.919,0.8) 83.85% - Rattati's +/- 0.3 (0.918,0.759) 83.2% - Thokk's (0.832,0.832) 74.2% - Current (0.742,0.742) Max HP Ranking - Model Name (R-¦ Movement, R-¦ Sprint) 91.7% - Rattati's Prototype (0.917,0.917) 91.2% - Aeon's? (0.912,0.912) 91.1% - Adipem's (0.911,0.911) 90.7% - Heim's (0.907,0.907) 90.3% - Red's (0.903,0.903) 90% - Haerr's (0.9,0.9) 88.7% - Varoth's (0.887,0.887) 85.2% - Ripley's (0.913,0.791) 84.4% - Spero's (0.778,0.91) 84.15% - Booby's (0.898,0.785) 82.7% - Thokk's (0.827,0.827) 81.6% - Rattati's +/- 0.3 (0.898,0.734) 72.4% - Current (0.724,0.724) Overall Ranking Ranking - Model Name (Sum of R-¦) 93.4% - Rattati's Prototype (5.602) 93.3% - Aeon's? (5.6) 93.2% - Heim's (5.594) 93.2% - Adipem's (5.59) 92.3% - Red's (5.536) 91.5% - Haerr's (5.49) 91.4% - Varoth's (5.482) 87.8% - Ripley's (5.269) 87.2% - Booby's (5.229) 87.1% - Spero's (5.224) 86.3% - Thokk's (5.178) 84.5% - Rattati's +/- 0.3 (5.068) 76.4% - Current (4.582) * Ranking (%) = (R-¦ Movement + R-¦ Sprint) / Maximum (2) * Overall Ranking (%) = Sum of All R-¦ / Maximum (6) Note: Max Ferro and Max HP curves assumes Commandos receive +1 Low Slot. Caveat: Each model's Speed/HP curves are currently derived from that model's data. We've established that an inverse, exponential relationship should exist between Speed and HP, but we've yet to determine/define the optimal Speed/HP curve. In other words, we don't have an ideal curve to plot data against; the curves you see in the graphs and the R-¦ rankings above -- while fun for spitballing and comparison -- are not necessarily "correct" as they are not fit against the ideal. How hard would it be to break strafe speed out into its own category? A lot of the feedback I've encountered thus far seems to indicate that (quite possibly in light of the hit detection currently present) strafe is valued higher than broader forms of mobility. CCP Rattati has mentioned it can be tuned independently, and if it remains the overly potent compared to the others it may well need to be tuned independently of them (likely with a universal down trend on the game wide average if it's effects so deeply feed the ability to wiggle dance ones way into 'bullet time' like resistance to incoming fire). I would be very interested to see how the proposed methods stack up and/or are altered by their advocates if the assumption "no class will possess enough strafe speed to wiggle dance post changes" is added to the overall evaluation framework. Thanks for building and maintaining all these sheets o7 CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.31 16:29:00 - [683] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: 1. How hard would it be to break strafe speed out into its own category? 2. Thanks for building and maintaining all these sheets o7 1. Strafe Speed is a constant at 0.9 movement. If added to these graphs, strafe values for each scenario would appear directly below the movement values (mirroring them perfectly). To answer your question, not hard. But arguably not necessary, unless you have variable values in mind you'd like to see modeled. 2. NP! (I'm having a blast). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 5	Posted - 2015.05.31 16:32:00 - [684] - Quote Adipem you running for cpm? Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.31 16:37:00 - [685] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: 1. How hard would it be to break strafe speed out into its own category? 2. Thanks for building and maintaining all these sheets o7 1. Strafe Speed is a constant at 0.9 movement. If added to these graphs, strafe values for each scenario would appear directly below the movement values (mirroring them perfectly). To answer your question, not hard. But arguably not necessary, unless you have variable values in mind you'd like to see modeled. 2. NP! (I'm having a blast). My variable value that I'd like to see is low enough it cannot be employed to break hit detection sadly I'm not sure how I'd reach actual raw numbers for that. It does seem clear - or at the very least likely - that said values are sitting at too high a game wide average at present, but what the translation for that is (i.e. how far they'd need pulled back) I don't have the data to say. I am interested however what the authors of some of the proposals would see as needed to keep the conceptual fidelity of their ideas sound assuming a lower game wide strafe modifier, say back at Chrome levels of 0.6 (that was it wasn't it?) as that's something we've at least had in the game (granted in a notably different context on a number of fronts). Would love input on the subject of how an actionable modifier value could be reached, and of course from the various method authors about what - if any - changes they would like to see to their method should a strafe modifier shift be instituted game wide. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.31 16:51:00 - [686] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Adipem you running for cpm? No chance, Heim. Wife and I have our first kid on the way (due September). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.31 16:57:00 - [687] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Adipem you running for cpm? No chance, Heim. Wife and I have our first kid on the way (due September). Congrats, and I wish you the very best of fortune as you embark on your voyage into the lands of #WhatTheKittenIsSleepAnyway? CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 5	Posted - 2015.05.31 16:58:00 - [688] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Adipem you running for cpm? No chance, Heim. Wife and I have our first kid on the way (due September). Nicee, would have voted for you =ƒÿâ Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.31 18:16:00 - [689] - Quote someone photoshop a baby with a calscout helmet with NKs in a cradle and Call it the Nothi-spawn. NOW! WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 18:34:00 - [690] - Quote Variable across class strafe tuning for balance would probably have to be determined relative to weapon dispersion, dispersion that would be relative to distance between the weapon and the dancer. Thats a huge pit of calculation that would still probably never get worked out enough to work right. If strafe speeds are serparately tunable from other speeds, and point in tuning them is to not have them able to break detection then then maybe the best course would be to remove its direct correlation to the other suit speeds and just make it an equal value across all the frames. Movement, sprint, stam etc will all be different but strafing is all at the same speed and is fast enough to be used (regular side-strafing/circling should stay) but slow enough that it doesnt break detection (the wiggle dance disappears). If anything, the wiggle dance should get you killed faster since you're wiggling into dispersion spread. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR

Ghost Steps G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 18	Posted - 2015.05.31 18:59:00 - [691] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Ghost Steps wrote: Still no thoughts on the shield recharge delay on calmando or minmando?, i think ill come back later. doesnt Additional slot creates opportunity for additional regen capability? Not directly, particularly the calmando which (most likely) will get just 1 high additional high module that doesnt affect their regen speed directly but amount, healiing 20 (or 29 with a proto recharge module) isnt enough in my experience. Caldari scout bonus sucks but i like to honor my name.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.31 21:24:00 - [692] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I'd like to say that I am fine with the proposed plan of nerfing assault base speed while keeping the sprint and strafe speeds he safe (as Rattati stated he wanted to do). I might hate it when its out, but I'm willing to at least give it a try. I could be mistaken, but I don't believe that Rattati has proposed this as an option. All suits presently have a universal 1.4 sprint multiplier and a universal 0.9 strafe multiplier. If Assault base movement is decreased, both of these multipliers would have to be increased for Assaults to maintain their current strafe and sprint speeds. As I understand it, this is technically possible, but I don't believe that it has been proposed. What exactly would it accomplish? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.31 21:35:00 - [693] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Would love input on the subject of how an actionable modifier value could be reached, and of course from the various method authors about what - if any - changes they would like to see to their method should a strafe modifier shift be instituted game wide. My two cents: Best not to tweak too many mechanics at once. As I see it, a normalized speed/hp curve should be field tested and tuned (if necessary) prior to the introduction of other big changes. If we tweak too many mechanics at one time, the effects of those tweaks may compound which will make any necessary troubleshooting/tuning more difficult. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 00:36:00 - [694] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Would love input on the subject of how an actionable modifier value could be reached, and of course from the various method authors about what - if any - changes they would like to see to their method should a strafe modifier shift be instituted game wide. My two cents: Definitely up for tweaking mechanics, but it might be best to tweak one at a time. As I see it, a normalized speed/hp curve should be field tested and tuned (if necessary) prior to the introduction of other big changes. If we tweak too many mechanics at one time, the effects of those tweaks could compound, making troubleshooting and finetuning more difficult. Totally in support of iterative balance changes. That being said, presuming we could hone in on a raw number that falls below the "I can strafe enough to break hit detection" threshold, I would personally prioritize that and/or not class it as a balance change at all. It is in my view (which is open for discussion of course) not a balance change so much as a fix as it runs directly converse to players having continuing access to the ability to break basic mechanics of the game. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.01 01:31:00 - [695] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Would love input on the subject of how an actionable modifier value could be reached, and of course from the various method authors about what - if any - changes they would like to see to their method should a strafe modifier shift be instituted game wide. My two cents: Definitely up for tweaking mechanics, but it might be best to tweak one at a time. As I see it, a normalized speed/hp curve should be field tested and tuned (if necessary) prior to the introduction of other big changes. If we tweak too many mechanics at one time, the effects of those tweaks could compound, making troubleshooting and finetuning more difficult. Totally in support of iterative balance changes. That being said, presuming we could hone in on a raw number that falls below the "I can strafe enough to break hit detection" threshold, I would personally prioritize that and/or not class it as a balance change at all. It is in my view (which is open for discussion of course) not a balance change so much as a fix as it runs directly converse to players having continuing access to the ability to break basic mechanics of the game. I agree with your reasoning, but I still have a few reservations ... 1. If we rolled out two big changes to movement at once, and we didn't like what we ended up with, which change would we blame? 2. If I recall correctly, Aim Assist was introduced and calibrated against 0.9 strafe. There's a possibility that some (or all) weapons might be too good at aiming themselves against a strafe multiplier lower than 0.9. If we reduce the strafe multiplier, Aim Assist may require immediate recalibration, and AA Adhesion values may not be the same one weapon to the next. What seems like as a simple, one variable change (0.9 ---> 0.x) could turn into a multi-variable, protracted process. 3. Reducing strafe speed will negatively impact legitimate strafing. Reducing Assault movement will negatively impact legitimate strafing. Doing both at once could really negatively impact legitimate strafing. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 03:55:00 - [696] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Would love input on the subject of how an actionable modifier value could be reached, and of course from the various method authors about what - if any - changes they would like to see to their method should a strafe modifier shift be instituted game wide. My two cents: Definitely up for tweaking mechanics, but it might be best to tweak one at a time. As I see it, a normalized speed/hp curve should be field tested and tuned (if necessary) prior to the introduction of other big changes. If we tweak too many mechanics at one time, the effects of those tweaks could compound, making troubleshooting and finetuning more difficult. Totally in support of iterative balance changes. That being said, presuming we could hone in on a raw number that falls below the "I can strafe enough to break hit detection" threshold, I would personally prioritize that and/or not class it as a balance change at all. It is in my view (which is open for discussion of course) not a balance change so much as a fix as it runs directly converse to players having continuing access to the ability to break basic mechanics of the game. Completely agree with your reasoning, but I still have a few reservations ... 1. If we rolled out two big changes to movement at once, and we didn't like what we ended up with, which change would we blame? 2. If I recall correctly, Aim Assist was introduced and calibrated against 0.9 strafe. There's a possibility that some (or all) weapons might be too good at aiming themselves against a strafe multiplier lower than 0.9. If we reduce the strafe multiplier, Aim Assist may require immediate recalibration, and AA Adhesion values may not be the same one weapon to the next. What seems like as a simple, one variable change (0.9 ---> 0.x) could turn into a multi-variable, protracted process. 3. Reducing strafe speed will negatively impact legitimate strafing. Reducing Assault movement will negatively impact legitimate strafing. Doing both at once could really negatively impact legitimate strafing. My two cents, of course :-) I think you're spot on, and honestly in light of the above reasoning I would heavily lean towards doing the alteration to strafe not only first but post haste so that this conversation we are all having in the thread here could be advised by the effects of a changed strafe mechanic. After all, it should be much easier to hotfix in a changed modifier than debate, consider, and implement a proper game wide speed/hp ratio, no? Besides which, if we arrive at a solid ratio and then alter strafe, what does that do to our ratio? Where as if we alter strafe and then use that to advise a ratio, we won't be doing our work twice as it were. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.06.01 04:53:00 - [697] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Coolio. Have you considered forcing all equipment slots to be filled to make a valid fit? I have, but that will be a later part when I am balancing the same powercore for assaults and logistics. A much more elegant solution is: to make Logi Eq bonus a BIG fitting bonus. something like -50% or -75%. Also, at the same time nerf PG+CPU for logis. That would make it practical to fill those minimal cost Eq slots. A fixed role bonus, perhaps? KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 05:02:00 - [698] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Coolio. Have you considered forcing all equipment slots to be filled to make a valid fit? I have, but that will be a later part when I am balancing the same powercore for assaults and logistics. A much more elegant solution is: to make Logi Eq bonus a BIG fitting bonus. something like -50% or -75%. Also, at the same time nerf PG+CPU for logis. That would make it practical to fill those minimal cost Eq slots. A fixed role bonus, perhaps? I've suggested the same, one drawback with it is that to accomplish the goal even with the raised role bonus it nearly requires that the base CPU/PG cost of equipment be raised. Which could be fine as it would define the support role more clearly (somewhat like scouts with cloaks) but it is a much larger consideration in it's implication and not to be done too lightly. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.01 08:06:00 - [699] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Totally in support of iterative balance changes. That being said, presuming we could hone in on a raw number that falls below the "I can strafe enough to break hit detection" threshold, I would personally prioritize that and/or not class it as a balance change at all. It is in my view (which is open for discussion of course) not a balance change so much as a fix as it runs directly converse to players having continuing access to the ability to break basic mechanics of the game. Completely agree with your reasoning, but I still have a few reservations ... 1. If we rolled out two big changes to movement at once, and we didn't like what we ended up with, which change would we blame? 2. If I recall correctly, Aim Assist was introduced and calibrated against 0.9 strafe. There's a possibility that some (or all) weapons might be too good at aiming themselves against a strafe multiplier lower than 0.9. If we reduce the strafe multiplier, Aim Assist may require immediate recalibration, and AA Adhesion values may not be the same one weapon to the next. What seems like as a simple, one variable change (0.9 ---> 0.x) could turn into a multi-variable, protracted process. 3. Reducing strafe speed will negatively impact legitimate strafing. Reducing Assault movement will negatively impact legitimate strafing. Doing both at once could really negatively impact legitimate strafing. My two cents, of course :-) I think you're spot on, and honestly in light of the above reasoning I would heavily lean towards doing the alteration to strafe not only first but post haste so that this conversation we are all having in the thread here could be advised by the effects of a changed strafe mechanic. After all, it should be much easier to hotfix in a changed modifier than debate, consider, and implement a proper game wide speed/hp ratio, no? Besides which, if we arrive at a solid ratio and then alter strafe, what does that do to our ratio? Where as if we alter strafe and then use that to advise a ratio, we won't be doing our work twice as it were. I'd personally approach it the other way around. Let's take the case of the MN Assault, for example ... Say we start by reducing the strafe multiplier until the MN Assault is beyond wiggle range. Its movement speed to hitpoint ratio will remain unchanged. Its position in relation to the speed/hp curve will remain unchanged. If we later fit all suits to a speed/hp curve, MN Assault movement speed would very likely be reduced, even though its wiggling is no longer at issue. If, on the other had, we begin by fitting all suits to a speed/hp curve, MN Assault movement speed would very likely be reduced, and it would become less good at wiggling. If a strafe adjustment from 0.9 is still needed, it will likely be a lesser adjustment than the one needed in the previous scenario. TL;DR: If my thinking is correct, the speed/hp curve would not be shifted by tweaking the strafe multiplier. Further, we'd likely get away with a lesser adjustment to the strafe multiplier if we begin by first drawing the extremes in closer to the curve. (spitballing here ... hope this makes sense) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 934	Posted - 2015.06.01 09:42:00 - [700] - Quote There is another potential solution to nerfing assault speed/hp. Set the speed / hp curve (line) to run through current assault values and current sentinel value. Buff the hp / speed of other classes up to the line. Most likely resulting in buffing scout base hp, as hit detection doesn't like them being faster than they are now, and buffing commando movement, to stop them overlapping with sentinels. Now, this would obviously make scouts OP. So the next thing to do is normalise other stats and define gains and sacrifices, such as EWAR and slots. So, for example. Give all suits equal shield and armour regen, stamina, stamina regen, EWAR and module slots (maintaining variation between races). Now, trade scout mod slots for EWAR, stamina and the cloak / extra equipment slot. Trade logi sidearm and stamina for equipment. Keep assault and logi EWAR as it is now. Trade commando grenade, EWAR and mod slots for two light weapon slots. Trade sentinel EWAR, mod slots and stamina for heavy weapons. Keep current bonuses. Net result: All suits on hp / speed curve. Assaults stay the same. Scouts gain hp, loose regen. Commandos and logis gain speed and regen. Sentinels gain regen. Only potential issue I see, would be OP logis. Perhaps they could make another trade. Maybe regen.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.01 12:40:00 - [701] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: There is another potential solution to nerfing assault speed/hp. Set the speed / hp curve (line) to run through current assault values and current sentinel value. Buff the hp / speed of other classes up to the line. Most likely resulting in buffing scout base hp, as hit detection doesn't like them being faster than they are now, and buffing commando movement, to stop them overlapping with sentinels. Now, this would obviously make scouts OP. So the next thing to do is normalise other stats and define gains and sacrifices, such as EWAR and slots. So, for example. Give all suits equal shield and armour regen, stamina, stamina regen, EWAR and module slots (maintaining variation between races). Now, trade scout mod slots for EWAR, stamina and the cloak / extra equipment slot. Trade logi sidearm and stamina for equipment. Keep assault and logi EWAR as it is now. Trade commando grenade, EWAR and mod slots for two light weapon slots. Trade sentinel EWAR, mod slots and stamina for heavy weapons. Keep current bonuses. Net result: All suits on hp / speed curve. Assaults stay the same. Scouts gain hp, loose regen. Commandos and logis gain speed and regen. Sentinels gain regen. Only potential issue I see, would be OP logis. Perhaps they could make another trade. Maybe regen. Added Model: Varoth's 2nd Parameters: * Hold Assault and Heavy speed and hp constant. * Fit Logis, Scouts and Commandos to the curve. * Do not increase Scout speed. Note: Not sure whether or not you intended to alter slot count; please advise. Let me know if you'd like to see any other tweaks. My two cents: Ignoring all else, the first thing that comes to mind is that we're moving several units into what is likely wiggle's optimal bounds, the speed:hp ratio presently occupied by the MN Assault. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.01 12:47:00 - [702] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Would love input on the subject of how an actionable modifier value could be reached, and of course from the various method authors about what - if any - changes they would like to see to their method should a strafe modifier shift be instituted game wide. My two cents: Definitely up for tweaking mechanics, but it might be best to tweak one at a time. As I see it, a normalized speed/hp curve should be field tested and tuned (if necessary) prior to the introduction of other big changes. If we tweak too many mechanics at one time, the effects of those tweaks could compound, making troubleshooting and finetuning more difficult. Totally in support of iterative balance changes. That being said, presuming we could hone in on a raw number that falls below the "I can strafe enough to break hit detection" threshold, I would personally prioritize that and/or not class it as a balance change at all. It is in my view (which is open for discussion of course) not a balance change so much as a fix as it runs directly converse to players having continuing access to the ability to break basic mechanics of the game. Completely agree with your reasoning, but I still have a few reservations ... 1. If we rolled out two big changes to movement at once, and we didn't like what we ended up with, which change would we blame? 2. If I recall correctly, Aim Assist was introduced and calibrated against 0.9 strafe. There's a possibility that some (or all) weapons might be too good at aiming themselves against a strafe multiplier lower than 0.9. If we reduce the strafe multiplier, Aim Assist may require immediate recalibration, and AA Adhesion values may not be the same one weapon to the next. What seems like as a simple, one variable change (0.9 ---> 0.x) could turn into a multi-variable, protracted process. 3. Reducing strafe speed will negatively impact legitimate strafing. Reducing Assault movement will negatively impact legitimate strafing. Doing both at once could really negatively impact legitimate strafing. My two cents, of course :-) I think you're spot on, and honestly in light of the above reasoning I would heavily lean towards doing the alteration to strafe not only first but post haste so that this conversation we are all having in the thread here could be advised by the effects of a changed strafe mechanic. After all, it should be much easier to hotfix in a changed modifier than debate, consider, and implement a proper game wide speed/hp ratio, no? Besides which, if we arrive at a solid ratio and then alter strafe, what does that do to our ratio? Where as if we alter strafe and then use that to advise a ratio, we won't be doing our work twice as it were. Came up with a different perspective after giving this more thought last night. What if Max Survivability was not a function of Speed to HP, but was rather a more specific function of Strafe Speed to HP? Further, what if there were a "sweet spot" on the grid, a datapoint at and beyond which wiggle is optimized? Putting together another spreadsheet as we speak ... :: tinkering :: Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.01 13:00:00 - [703] - Quote Note: Fixed error in "Current Model". Incorrect State: In all models (including "Current Model"), Commando Max Ferro and Max HP plots assumed +1 Low Slot. Corrected State: In all models except "Current Model", Commando Max Ferro and Max HP plots assumed +1 Low Slot. "Current Model" is intended to exactly portray the present state of play. Results: Model "Current" - R-¦ Base Hitpoints / Speed - Unchanged Model "Current" - R-¦ Max HP w/Ferro / Speed - 0.742 ---> 0.667 Model "Current" - R-¦ Max HP / Speed - 0.724 ---> 0.586 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 936	Posted - 2015.06.01 13:30:00 - [704] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Added Model: Varoth's 2nd Parameters: * Hold Assault and Heavy speed and hp constant. * Fit Logis, Scouts and Commandos to the curve. * Do not increase Scout speed. Note: Not sure whether or not you intended to alter slot count; please advise. Let me know if you'd like to see any other tweaks. My two cents: Ignoring all else, the first thing that comes to mind is that we're moving several units into what is likely wiggle's optimal bounds, the speed:hp ratio presently occupied by the MN Assault. Sigh, you have a point. Wiggle probably means the curve needs to be flatter. I'm thinking more and more, that back when Cal logis were FOTM in uprising 1.0, if CCP had just nerfed complex shield extenders instead of buffing armour etc, most of the balancing issues we've had to deal with would not have occurred.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.01 15:34:00 - [705] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Completely agree with your reasoning, but I still have a few reservations ... 1. If we rolled out two big changes to movement at once, and we didn't like what we ended up with, which change would we blame? 2. If I recall correctly, Aim Assist was introduced and calibrated against 0.9 strafe. There's a possibility that some (or all) weapons might be too good at aiming themselves against a strafe multiplier lower than 0.9. If we reduce the strafe multiplier, Aim Assist may require immediate recalibration, and AA Adhesion values may not be the same one weapon to the next. What seems like as a simple, one variable change (0.9 ---> 0.x) could turn into a multi-variable, protracted process. 3. Reducing strafe speed will negatively impact legitimate strafing. Reducing Assault movement will negatively impact legitimate strafing. Doing both at once could really negatively impact legitimate strafing. My two cents, of course :-) I think you're spot on, and honestly in light of the above reasoning I would heavily lean towards doing the alteration to strafe not only first but post haste so that this conversation we are all having in the thread here could be advised by the effects of a changed strafe mechanic. After all, it should be much easier to hotfix in a changed modifier than debate, consider, and implement a proper game wide speed/hp ratio, no? Besides which, if we arrive at a solid ratio and then alter strafe, what does that do to our ratio? Where as if we alter strafe and then use that to advise a ratio, we won't be doing our work twice as it were. Came up with a different perspective after giving this more thought last night. What if Max Survivability was not a function of Speed to HP, but was rather a more specific function of Strafe Speed to HP? Further, what if there were a "sweet spot" on the grid, a point beyond which wiggle works best? Putting together another spreadsheet as we speak ... :: tinkering :: Assumption: There exists a wiggle "sweet spot" ... a ratio of Strafe Speed to HP beyond which returns optimal wiggle and/or strafe performance. * Units at or beyond this point tend to be hardest to hit * Units at or beyond this point are sufficiently durable to withstand getting hit * Units at or beyond this point make for the best slayer platforms * Units at or beyond this point have the potential to become OP/FoTM New Google Doc! Let's start by looking at past and present FoTM. Under "Current (0.9)" we find the MN Assault with base hitpoints of 500 and 4.77 m/s strafe speed. As this unit is presently the best wiggler and OP/FoTM, we can assume the wiggle "sweet spot" is located somewhere around it. To be safe, we'll pick the bounds of 500HP and 4.50 m/s strafe. If these bounds are correct, the chart on the right of "Current (0.9)" shows all units with the potential to be become great wigglers. There we find 8 units, including present OP/FoTM (today's Assaults), as well as past OP/FoTM (uparmored Scouts). Now let's look at "Rattati's Prototype (0.9)". We've effectively fit all units to a speed/hp curve. The chart on the right, however, still shows that we have 7 units in range of the wiggle "sweet spot". All else held constant, these units arguably have the potential to be become great wigglers. TL;DR: If these assumptions are true, you may be onto to something, Cross. If we rolled out a reduction to strafe speed first, we might avoid a slayer migration. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:22:00 - [706] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Came up with a different perspective after giving this more thought last night. What if Max Survivability was not a function of Speed to HP, but was rather a more specific function of Strafe Speed to HP? Further, what if there were a "sweet spot" on the grid, a point beyond which wiggle works best? Putting together another spreadsheet as we speak ... :: tinkering :: Very good observation. You are on to something. Know what cannot be known.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 936	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:33:00 - [707] - Quote Defence is a function of hp multiplied by strafe speed and hitbox size. If you calculate ferro tanked hp, multiplied by strafe speed you get a approximation of each suit's overall defence. Unfortunately I don't have access to hitbox size, so we'll have to leave that out for now. What's interesting here is the the only suit with higher defence (ignoring hitbox) than the Min assault, is the Min sentinel. All other suits have lower defence. Taking hitbox into account would certainly push the sentinel below the assault.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 937	Posted - 2015.06.01 18:18:00 - [708] - Quote I made my own spreadsheet! Dropsuit Defence This shows an approximation of dropsuit defence relative to the Gallente assault. The far right collumn has suits in order from least to most defensive. I have calculated typical Hp values by using 1/2 of total slots as shields or ferroscales, depending on tanking type. I have approximated hitbox size as 80% for scouts, 100% for mediums, and 120% for heavies. I have approximated sentinel overall damage resistance to be 10%. Defence has been calculated as being proportional to typical hp, resistance, strafe speed, and inversly proportional to hitbox size. It's actually not very insightful it turns out. Sentinels are the most defensive, and could be a lot more if tanked up with plates (looking at you Amarr sentinel). Next are assaults, who are quite a lot more defensive than commandos, logis and scout, who all trail behind. The gap between assaults and the rest (except sentinels), is quite revealing i suppose.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 20:01:00 - [709] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Totally in support of iterative balance changes. That being said, presuming we could hone in on a raw number that falls below the "I can strafe enough to break hit detection" threshold, I would personally prioritize that and/or not class it as a balance change at all. It is in my view (which is open for discussion of course) not a balance change so much as a fix as it runs directly converse to players having continuing access to the ability to break basic mechanics of the game. Completely agree with your reasoning, but I still have a few reservations ... 1. If we rolled out two big changes to movement at once, and we didn't like what we ended up with, which change would we blame? 2. If I recall correctly, Aim Assist was introduced and calibrated against 0.9 strafe. There's a possibility that some (or all) weapons might be too good at aiming themselves against a strafe multiplier lower than 0.9. If we reduce the strafe multiplier, Aim Assist may require immediate recalibration, and AA Adhesion values may not be the same one weapon to the next. What seems like as a simple, one variable change (0.9 ---> 0.x) could turn into a multi-variable, protracted process. 3. Reducing strafe speed will negatively impact legitimate strafing. Reducing Assault movement will negatively impact legitimate strafing. Doing both at once could really negatively impact legitimate strafing. My two cents, of course :-) I think you're spot on, and honestly in light of the above reasoning I would heavily lean towards doing the alteration to strafe not only first but post haste so that this conversation we are all having in the thread here could be advised by the effects of a changed strafe mechanic. After all, it should be much easier to hotfix in a changed modifier than debate, consider, and implement a proper game wide speed/hp ratio, no? Besides which, if we arrive at a solid ratio and then alter strafe, what does that do to our ratio? Where as if we alter strafe and then use that to advise a ratio, we won't be doing our work twice as it were. I'd personally approach it the other way around. Let's take the case of the MN Assault, for example ... Say we start by reducing the strafe multiplier until the MN Assault is beyond wiggle range. Its movement speed to hitpoint ratio will remain unchanged, its position on the speed/hp plot will remain unchanged, and its relative distance from speed/hp curve will remain unchanged. If we later fit all suits to a speed/hp curve, MN Assault movement speed would very likely be reduced, even though its wiggling is no longer at issue. If, on the other had, we begin by fitting all suits to a speed/hp curve, MN Assault movement speed would very likely be reduced, and it would become less good at wiggling. If a strafe adjustment from 0.9 is still needed, it will likely be a lesser adjustment than the one needed in the previous scenario. TL;DR: If my thinking is correct, we'd likely get away with a lesser adjustment to the strafe multiplier if we begin by first drawing the extremes in closer to the speed/hp curve. Approaching the problem from the other direction (in my estimation) runs greater risk of over correction. (spitballing here ... hope this makes sense) If we're going that route we wouldn't be adjusting based on the Min Assault we'd be taking the highest movement suit in the game and moving it's speed downward until it no longer was able to "use the wiggle" as it were. Altering the Min Assault doesn't actually change that one way or the other as the Min may be an outlier within the Assault role but it is not the fastest suit on offer in a game wide context. So we can look to the scout racial suits (they are still faster than the Min Assault at base, no?) and ask "can they move at strafe speeds that break hit detection?" if the answer is "yes" as last I knew it most certainly was, then the adjustment of strafe values downwards is needed regardless of the position of the Min Assault relative to other assaults or medium frames. I support the curve, but no suit should be able to wiggle it's way through damage which means that the highest strafe value in the game, regardless of what suit it is attached too or where that suit falls on the hp/speed curve, needs to be below the threshold of 'wiggle power'. And since the curve by it's very nature will have a suit or two that comprise it's far end speed values, those values must be blow our "no wiggle" number, regardless of the ratios established for the curve. So while yes, if we were to aim the wiggle reduction at the assault suits it would be ineffective and problematic, that wouldn't be the proper method as we need to focus "max wiggle" on the fastest suit(s) in the game and move downwards from there accordingly within the speed/hp curve. After all, no matter what speed to HP ratio is ultimately applied we don't want any suit with the ability to break the hit detection. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 21:02:00 - [710] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Came up with a different perspective after giving this more thought last night. What if Max Survivability was not a function of Speed to HP, but was rather a more specific function of Strafe Speed to HP? Further, what if there were a "sweet spot" on the grid, a point beyond which wiggle works best? Putting together another spreadsheet as we speak ... :: tinkering :: Interested to see what you come up with Personally I think the wiggle gives strafe too much potency relative to other attributes (both speed and HP) and needs to be pulled back to where it is no longer able to break hit detection for any role at any level. Avoiding fire via tactical movement such as use of cover, flanking, and removal of ones self from fire zones in response to danger, those are all great. The ability to stand in the open (or anywhere else) and not take damage as if one is living in a Bugs Bunny cartoon, that's not great (nor is it intended function AFAIK) and shouldn't be balanced around because it is likely to be removed as soon as method/means to do so is attained. If the Min Assault is potent not because of the ratio of speed to HP that it has, but rather because of the ratio of ability to strafe break hit detection while having enough tank to absorb stray shots that it has, then that's not something to balance around that's something to fix. After which actual speed to HP balance should be assessed. New Eden may be a future scifi world, but it is not the Matrix, and we may have "Neo" proto suits but that doesn't mean any suit should be able to dodge bullets the way he can CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 21:17:00 - [711] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Assumption: There exists a wiggle "sweet spot" ... a ratio of Strafe Speed to HP beyond which optimal wiggle and/or strafe performance is returned. * Units at or beyond this point tend to be hardest to hit * Units at or beyond this point are sufficiently durable to withstand getting hit * Units at or beyond this point make for the best slayer platforms * Units at or beyond this point have the potential to become OP/FoTM New Google Doc! Let's start by looking at past and present FoTM. Under "Current (0.9)" we find the MN Assault with base hitpoints of 500 and 4.77 m/s strafe speed. As this unit is presently the best wiggler and OP/FoTM, we can assume the wiggle "sweet spot" is located somewhere around it. For simplicity's sake, we'll pick the bounds of 500HP and 4.50 m/s strafe. If these bounds are correct, the chart on the right of "Current (0.9)" shows all units with the mechanical foundation needed to be become great wigglers. There we find 8 units, including today's overperformers (Assaults), as well as yesterday's overperformers (high-hitpoint Scouts). Now let's look at "Rattati's Prototype (0.9)". Here, we've effectively fit all units more tightly to a speed/hp curve, as described on Page 1 of this thread. The chart on the right, however, still shows that we have 7 units in range of the wiggle "sweet spot". All else held constant, these units arguably have the potential to be become great wigglers. TL;DR: You may be onto to something, Cross. If the above assumptions are true, and we rolled out a reduction to strafe speed first, we might avoid a slayer migration. We also might cure wiggle. Spitballing, of course. Caveat: There isn't necessarily a wiggle "sweet spot", though its as good a theory as any. If there is a wiggle "sweet spot", it isn't necessarily within the bounds described above. I arbitrarily set those bounds to 500 HP / 4.5 strafe to illustrate a point; if a sweet spot exists, these bounds are likely in the ballpark, but they aren't necessarily accurate. The sweet spot is an interesting notion, I hadn't drawn out considerations quite that far but that's very interesting. Thinking of wiggle as in essence an excessive level of speed tank where speed is used not to avoid situations where damage is applied to you, but rather is improperly used to avoid the damage itself, then obviously it is not a 100% universal so HP does hold an impact in light of the stray shots that could land, or the damage taken in moments before wiggle pattern movement is initiated. The other factor here then is DPS output, because you do not need as much HP to absorb stray shots when your required wiggle time is lower. Thus the higher the DPS output of the suit, and the force projection on that DPS the wider range of 'sweet spot' would apply because the required 'wiggle window' would be lower. I am far from the most proficient wiggler in the game but even I have been able to do things like wiggle my way through the fire of officer HMGs on Proto Sents - while in my STD Sent with MLT HMG - until I killed them with most of my health intact. To be clear this isn't me dropping in behind the guy and getting him down greatly before he can turn and draw a bead on me, that's valid tactical game play, I'm talking about a heads up gun battle where we're both facing each other and are the only two shooting and no cover is employed or nades thrown... oh, but he did have a logi repping him Things like that, those aren't skill sets, those aren't me being a talented player or him being unskilled, those are broken mechanics that need to be eradicated with extreme prejudice. Or at least, such is my view CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.06.02 01:54:00 - [712] - Quote A note of concern. There's too much bias toward hp tanking. Rattati mentions an additional slot for commandos. Why? Are slots only for extenders and plates? Why can't anything other than hp mods be viable or useful? If you're going to add a slot, what are all possible uses of slot and are any of them going to make it otherwise OP? If caldari commando gets an extra slot, will it be a high slot for hp and damage mods or a low slot for an additional shield regulator for increase regen ability or kincats and cardiac regulators for increased mobility. That's what an additional slot offers. Rattatis KDR data already shows the the cal commando as the most efficient suit in the game as a sniper platform. Would an additional high slot really be used for an hp mod or to further bolster it's already impressive sniping ability?
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.06.02 02:51:00 - [713] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: A note of concern. There's too much bias toward hp tanking. Rattati mentions an additional slot for commandos. Why? Are slots only for extenders and plates? Why can't anything other than hp mods be viable or useful? If you're going to add a slot, what are all possible uses of slot and are any of them going to make it otherwise OP? If caldari commando gets an extra slot, will it be a high slot for hp and damage mods or a low slot for an additional shield regulator for increase regen ability or kincats and cardiac regulators for increased mobility. That's what an additional slot offers. Rattatis KDR data already shows the the cal commando as the most efficient suit in the game as a sniper platform. Would an additional high slot really be used for an hp mod or to further bolster it's already impressive sniping ability? Well personally speaking, I want an additional high slot on my Gallente Commando so I could have a damage mod at STD levels. Also as for forced equipment, it's really not going to do much. People will simply stack on 4 Compact Nanohives and call it a day. It's a crude solution that won't bear the degree of intended results that people want. The only way to properly get the intended effect is through fitting reduction bonuses. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.06.02 03:14:00 - [714] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: A note of concern. There's too much bias toward hp tanking. Rattati mentions an additional slot for commandos. Why? Are slots only for extenders and plates? Why can't anything other than hp mods be viable or useful? If you're going to add a slot, what are all possible uses of slot and are any of them going to make it otherwise OP? If caldari commando gets an extra slot, will it be a high slot for hp and damage mods or a low slot for an additional shield regulator for increase regen ability or kincats and cardiac regulators for increased mobility. That's what an additional slot offers. Rattatis KDR data already shows the the cal commando as the most efficient suit in the game as a sniper platform. Would an additional high slot really be used for an hp mod or to further bolster it's already impressive sniping ability? Well personally speaking, I want an additional high slot on my Gallente Commando so I could have a damage mod at STD levels. Also as for forced equipment, it's really not going to do much. People will simply stack on 4 Compact Nanohives and call it a day. It's a crude solution that won't bear the degree of intended results that people want. The only way to properly get the intended effect is through fitting reduction bonuses. Two highs on gallente would be awesome and scary. I've always thought the gal commando should be a beast of a brawler and that extra damage mod would give a huge punch. Plus, right now cal assault can actaully match it's damage with Ar's by stacking 4 complex damage mods. Kinda dampens the unique feeling of being the best in plasma weapon damage if other race can do it too without bonuses
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.06.02 07:12:00 - [715] - Quote As a minmatar scout, and possibly that highest strafer in the game, I would gladly put my own strafe on the chopping block if it meant the end of the wiggle break-dance. Take it, end it, let the madness just stop. One day if we get better hit detection, inertia, framerate, or any combination of those, maybe we can bring strafe speeds back up. Until then, nothing is worth buggering up hit detection. Know what cannot be known.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.02 11:50:00 - [716] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: As a minmatar scout, and possibly that highest strafer in the game, I would gladly put my own strafe on the chopping block if it meant the end of the wiggle break-dance. Take it, end it, let the madness just stop. One day if we get better hit detection, inertia, framerate, or any combination of those, maybe we can bring strafe speeds back up. Until then, nothing is worth buggering up hit detection. Completely agree. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.02 12:58:00 - [717] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: As a minmatar scout, and possibly that highest strafer in the game, I would gladly put my own strafe on the chopping block if it meant the end of the wiggle break-dance. Take it, end it, let the madness just stop. One day if we get better hit detection, inertia, framerate, or any combination of those, maybe we can bring strafe speeds back up. Until then, nothing is worth buggering up hit detection. Completely agree. Though I'm not sold on a specific multiplier ... One more graph Google Doc: Strafe Speed Multipliers Plots strafe speeds at multipliers 0.9x (present) through 0.6x (chromosome). Includes two "baselines" for point of reference. The upper baseline is current MN Assault strafe speed; the lower baseline is current MN Sentinel strafe speed. A few observations ... * At a strafe multiplier of 0.85, tomorrow's MN Assault (4.51 m/s) would strafe at roughly the same speed as today's MN Logi (4.5 m/s). * At a strafe multiplier of 0.8, tomorrow's MN Assault (4.24 m/s) would strafe at roughly the same speed as today's GA/CA Logi (4.23 m/s). * At a strafe multiplier of 0.7, tomorrow's MN Assault (3.71 m/s) would strafe only slightly faster than today's MN Sentinel (3.65 m/s). * If we implemented Chromosome's sprint multiplier of 0.6, tomorrow's MN Assault (3.18 m/s)would strafe more slowly than today's AM Sentinel (3.29 m/s). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.06.02 14:08:00 - [718] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: As a minmatar scout, and possibly that highest strafer in the game, I would gladly put my own strafe on the chopping block if it meant the end of the wiggle break-dance. Take it, end it, let the madness just stop. One day if we get better hit detection, inertia, framerate, or any combination of those, maybe we can bring strafe speeds back up. Until then, nothing is worth buggering up hit detection. Completely agree. Though I'm not sold on a specific multiplier ... One more graph Google Doc: Strafe Speed Multipliers Plots strafe speeds at multipliers 0.9x (present) through 0.6x (chromosome). Includes two "baselines" for point of reference. The upper baseline is current MN Assault strafe speed; the lower baseline is current MN Sentinel strafe speed. A few observations ... * At a strafe multiplier of 0.85, tomorrow's MN Assault (4.51 m/s) would strafe at roughly the same speed as today's MN Logi (4.5 m/s). * At a strafe multiplier of 0.8, tomorrow's MN Assault (4.24 m/s) would strafe at roughly the same speed as today's GA/CA Logi (4.23 m/s). * At a strafe multiplier of 0.7, tomorrow's MN Assault (3.71 m/s) would strafe only slightly faster than today's MN Sentinel (3.65 m/s). * If we implemented Chromosome's sprint multiplier of 0.6, tomorrow's MN Assault (3.18 m/s) would strafe at lower speed than today's AM Sentinel (3.29 m/s). these are without plates yes? this is good as it lets get a feel for potential changes. excellent
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.02 14:18:00 - [719] - Quote deathwind wrote: these are without plates yes? excellent Correct. These are base values; speeds would be unchanged w/ferroscale. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.02 17:14:00 - [720] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: A note of concern. There's too much bias toward hp tanking. Rattati mentions an additional slot for commandos. Why? Are slots only for extenders and plates? Why can't anything other than hp mods be viable or useful? If you're going to add a slot, what are all possible uses of slot and are any of them going to make it otherwise OP? If caldari commando gets an extra slot, will it be a high slot for hp and damage mods or a low slot for an additional shield regulator for increase regen ability or kincats and cardiac regulators for increased mobility. That's what an additional slot offers. Rattatis KDR data already shows the the cal commando as the most efficient suit in the game as a sniper platform. Would an additional high slot really be used for an hp mod or to further bolster it's already impressive sniping ability? Well personally speaking, I want an additional high slot on my Gallente Commando so I could have a damage mod at STD levels. Also as for forced equipment, it's really not going to do much. People will simply stack on 4 Compact Nanohives and call it a day. It's a crude solution that won't bear the degree of intended results that people want. The only way to properly get the intended effect is through fitting reduction bonuses. Much as I advocate use of fitting bonuses (and I really, really, do) they don't have much "play" when we get down to raw numbers and using them to attain this goal nearly requires a retooling of equipment costs (CPU/PG specifically) upwards to make the total net CPU/PG output simultaneously A) Viable, when fitting a full rack of equipment, and B) strict enough, that it will provide the limiting factor sought. Based on the various numbers and spot checks I've done if one wants to allow for a proto logi to have proto equipment and proto H/L slots with only standard weapons and assuming the character in question has max skills in everything relevant (including the unlisted bonuses) we're looking at something in the vicinity of ~20% increase on CPU/PG costs for fitting any equipment (aside from the cloak which would be left untouched due to it's scout affinity). The necessary increase in fittings costs can't get much less than that or the value of the savings form the role bonus - even when double - isn't enough to counter more than a minimal shift in base stats (once we account for the compound loss from a lower amount gained via the basic non-role fittings skills). I included this concept in my initial proposal in my logistics feedback threat and was met with some resistance, both from players of the support role, and from players who wanted to play another role but provide their own support without a logistics member in their squads. Conceptually I find this possible shift to be useful for providing proper role definition to both medium frames by limiting the logistics potential to be run as a pure slayer without equipment and by limiting the ability of other frames to "self logi" without a higher opportunity cost, but that's not my call to make unilaterally. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.02 17:25:00 - [721] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: As a minmatar scout, and possibly that highest strafer in the game, I would gladly put my own strafe on the chopping block if it meant the end of the wiggle break-dance. Take it, end it, let the madness just stop. One day if we get better hit detection, inertia, framerate, or any combination of those, maybe we can bring strafe speeds back up. Until then, nothing is worth buggering up hit detection. Completely agree. ^all of this I have the Minmitar Scout, Logistics, Assault, Commando, and Sentinel all in my current fittings. This strafe reduction will hit my match to match play directly, and I still firmly support it. As Kaeru so aptly put it, let the madness just stop. (with the stated hope that someday down the line we can revisit things, better hit detection in hand, and perhaps rescale speeds at that time) 0.02 ISK CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.02 17:58:00 - [722] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: As a minmatar scout, and possibly that highest strafer in the game, I would gladly put my own strafe on the chopping block if it meant the end of the wiggle break-dance. Take it, end it, let the madness just stop. One day if we get better hit detection, inertia, framerate, or any combination of those, maybe we can bring strafe speeds back up. Until then, nothing is worth buggering up hit detection. Completely agree. Though I'm not sold on a specific multiplier ... One more graph Google Doc: Strafe Speed Multipliers Plots strafe speeds at multipliers 0.9x (present) through 0.6x (chromosome). Includes two "baselines" for point of reference. The upper baseline is current MN Assault strafe speed; the lower baseline is current MN Sentinel strafe speed. A few observations ... * At a strafe multiplier of 0.85, tomorrow's MN Assault (4.51 m/s) would strafe at roughly the same speed as today's MN Logi (4.5 m/s). * At a strafe multiplier of 0.8, tomorrow's MN Assault (4.24 m/s) would strafe at roughly the same speed as today's GA/CA Logi (4.23 m/s). * At a strafe multiplier of 0.7, tomorrow's MN Assault (3.71 m/s) would strafe only slightly faster than today's MN Sentinel (3.65 m/s). * If we implemented Chromosome's sprint multiplier of 0.6, tomorrow's MN Assault (3.18 m/s) would strafe at lower speed than today's AM Sentinel (3.29 m/s). Looking at the raw data, and taking the current Min Assault strafe of 4.77 as too high due to clearly being able to wiggle, and accounting for the Min Scout and it's higher move rate - as the stated goal is to not let any suit break hit detection via wiggle - we're looking at a reduction in modifier game wide down at least to 0.75 which brings the Min Scout to a strafe of ~4.24 that's 0.53 less strafe then the current Min Assault, but we must bear in mind that it is not only the Min Assault that is capable of the wiggle even if they are benefiting greatly from it due to the "sweet spot" effect, and further that in a game state where only 1-2 suits can wiggle they gain an even greater value from it than at present, it seems highly advisable that the opening range for reduction be a minimum of 0.7 with an awareness that it may need to go all the way to do 0.6 Your bullet points above, and their comparative speed values, combined with my own in game testing, I can say categorically that we need to go lower than 0.8 as the Minmitar Logi certainly can wiggle at 4.5 and we'll have to pull the Min Scout down below that range (the Min Logi suit I tested this on had 415 total HP including a basic plate thus lowering it's move below 'out of the box' value for the Min Logi, so I was doing this with a strafe of ~4.4 on a suit with 415 HP so when it comes to "sweet spot" values we want to make sure strafe for our fastest case falls below that. Also worth noting is that I was using an Exile AR and this was on my low SP alt, so far from Max skills or max DPS force projection, all of which obviously expand the bounds of the "sweet spot".) That being the case we may be best served to simply revert to 0.6 immediately and then assess from there if we have any room to tune upwards again without restoring "wiggle power" to one or more frames. 0.02 ISK EDIT: One additional point, that STD Sentinel fit that I mentioned earlier, the one I wiggle danced my way through fire in while killing the Proto Sent with the Officer HMG and the attached Logi? The fit I was in was a brick tanked Amarr STD Sentinel, so comparing that with the contextual values you provide on your bullet list underscores yet again how a 0.6 modifier is likely the way to go as a first step and then tune if/as needed from there. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 941	Posted - 2015.06.02 18:09:00 - [723] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: As a minmatar scout, and possibly that highest strafer in the game, I would gladly put my own strafe on the chopping block if it meant the end of the wiggle break-dance. Take it, end it, let the madness just stop. One day if we get better hit detection, inertia, framerate, or any combination of those, maybe we can bring strafe speeds back up. Until then, nothing is worth buggering up hit detection. I wouldn't mind either. Lost a 1vs1 duel with my HMG Sentinel against a Minmatar Assault @ HMG optimal range. Note: I loose a lot of 1vs1 since I am not the best FPS player, but in this fight the Assault were hardly moving (apart from shaking rapidly back and forth) and were totally out in the open. Unloaded full clip at optimal range... I died and he walked away with ~80% EHP left
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.02 19:15:00 - [724] - Quote Operating on gut feel here, but -33% at 0.6x seems too steep and too sudden a drop to me, Cross. Isn't 0.5x the unnaturally sluggish backpedal speed in merc quarters? If my understand is correct, this multiplier can be set via sever-side hotfix. Even if we ultimately ended up with a very low multiplier, wouldn't it be better to iterate in that direction and monitor effects, rather than jump straight all at once to what might be too much? Just to be safe? Please note that I'm no friend of wiggle; I've complained about it as much as anyone. I'm simply concerned about potential over correction and unintended consequence. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. RUST415 1	Posted - 2015.06.02 19:33:00 - [725] - Quote So here's a data crunch I did in an attempt to answer Pokey's question about creating a unified "mobility" statistic that is a composite of the individual core speed statistics: Speed, sprint speed, strafe speed, stamina pool, and stamina regen. I applied a modification of the process that the National Research Council used to derive their rankings of PhD programs in the United States. It is detailed fairly thoroughly here: http://phds.org/about/ranges . The short-and-sweet explanation is this: Methods (1) Data for each role+race combination in the game was collected in the categories of speed, sprint speed, strafe speed, stamina pool, and stamina regeneration (2) The data was normalized so that the average value of each of the above 5 statistics across the different suits is 0, and its standard deviation is 1. http://www.inside-r.org/r-doc/base/scale . This scaling procedure allows data which may be measured in different units to be compared on a direct, numerical scale in a more appropriate way. (3) 1000 simulated rankings were generated. To rank the suits, a weighting factor for each of the 5 suits was uniformly randomly selected. Essentially this step assigns importance to each of these categories randomly. Each suit gets a composite score which is the sum its statistics multiplied by the statistics' weighting factor. That is: Composite = stat_1 * weight_1 + stat_2 * weight_2 + ... + stat_5 * weight_5 And then the suits are ranked with the suit ranked number 1 having the highest composite score (coughMINSCOUTcough) (4) Since this process was repeated 1000 times, we get distributions of rankings that the suits received Here are the results: https://i.imgur.com/CqsWYL6.png Interpretation Since the weights for each category are randomly selected rather than based on some sort of expert analysis of which speed category is most important, the results don't necessarily convey which suit the population at large would evaluate as the "most mobile". These results do give a good baseline around which to indicate what those numbers could look like, however. They also show off potential "rank bleed" in each suit class. The bigger the range of rankings that a suit receives, the less certain its ranking can really be evaluated to a single number in the hierarchy. I don't want to bias interpretation too much further. What I will note is that stamina and stamina pool are perhaps "overweighted" insofar as I think that many people would not weight these stats as highly as a random weight would assign compared to the others. Additionally, it's notably just from the raw data that the MinMando + Min Sentinel break the stamina regen curve really drastically. Each of them have 40 stamina regen, with their closest neighbor in the heavy class at 20. To put it in perspective, the Amarr Scout also has 40 stamina regen. Long term roadmap by Aeon Amadi Have a pony
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.02 20:07:00 - [726] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: So here's a data crunch I did in an attempt to answer Pokey's question about creating a unified "mobility" statistic that is a composite of the individual core speed statistics: Speed, sprint speed, strafe speed, stamina pool, and stamina regen. I applied a modification of the process that the National Research Council used to derive their rankings of PhD programs in the United States. It is detailed fairly thoroughly here: http://phds.org/about/ranges . The short-and-sweet explanation is this: Methods (1) Data for each role+race combination in the game was collected in the categories of speed, sprint speed, strafe speed, stamina pool, and stamina regeneration (2) The data was normalized so that the average value of each of the above 5 statistics across the different suits is 0, and its standard deviation is 1. http://www.inside-r.org/r-doc/base/scale . This scaling procedure allows data which may be measured in different units to be compared on a direct, numerical scale in a more appropriate way. (3) 1000 simulated rankings were generated. To rank the suits, a weighting factor for each of the 5 suits was uniformly randomly selected. Essentially this step assigns importance to each of these categories randomly. Each suit gets a composite score which is the sum its statistics multiplied by the statistics' weighting factor. That is: Composite = stat_1 * weight_1 + stat_2 * weight_2 + ... + stat_5 * weight_5 And then the suits are ranked with the suit ranked number 1 having the highest composite score (coughMINSCOUTcough) (4) Since this process was repeated 1000 times, we get distributions of rankings that the suits received Here are the results: https://i.imgur.com/CqsWYL6.png Interpretation Since the weights for each category are randomly selected rather than based on some sort of expert analysis of which speed category is most important, the results don't necessarily convey which suit the population at large would evaluate as the "most mobile". These results do give a good baseline around which to indicate what those numbers could look like, however. They also show off potential "rank bleed" in each suit class. The bigger the range of rankings that a suit receives, the less certain its ranking can really be evaluated to a single number in the hierarchy. I don't want to bias interpretation too much further. What I will note is that stamina and stamina pool are perhaps "overweighted" insofar as I think that many people would not weight these stats as highly as a random weight would assign compared to the others. Additionally, it's notably just from the raw data that the MinMando + Min Sentinel break the stamina regen curve really drastically. Each of them have 40 stamina regen, with their closest neighbor in the heavy class at 20. To put it in perspective, the Amarr Scout also has 40 stamina regen. This is definitely interesting, but I don't understand what is being hypothesized or proposed, for that matter. If we were to assume that there is direct (or causal) relationship between mobility and viability, how might we explain the MinScout's efficiency ranking? Would we not expect it to be at the top of the pile rather than the bottom? Or am I thinking about this all wrong? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. RUST415 1	Posted - 2015.06.02 20:15:00 - [727] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: So here's a data crunch I did in an attempt to answer Pokey's question about creating a unified "mobility" statistic that is a composite of the individual core speed statistics: Speed, sprint speed, strafe speed, stamina pool, and stamina regen. I applied a modification of the process that the National Research Council used to derive their rankings of PhD programs in the United States. It is detailed fairly thoroughly here: http://phds.org/about/ranges . The short-and-sweet explanation is this: Methods (1) Data for each role+race combination in the game was collected in the categories of speed, sprint speed, strafe speed, stamina pool, and stamina regeneration (2) The data was normalized so that the average value of each of the above 5 statistics across the different suits is 0, and its standard deviation is 1. http://www.inside-r.org/r-doc/base/scale . This scaling procedure allows data which may be measured in different units to be compared on a direct, numerical scale in a more appropriate way. (3) 1000 simulated rankings were generated. To rank the suits, a weighting factor for each of the 5 suits was uniformly randomly selected. Essentially this step assigns importance to each of these categories randomly. Each suit gets a composite score which is the sum its statistics multiplied by the statistics' weighting factor. That is: Composite = stat_1 * weight_1 + stat_2 * weight_2 + ... + stat_5 * weight_5 And then the suits are ranked with the suit ranked number 1 having the highest composite score (coughMINSCOUTcough) (4) Since this process was repeated 1000 times, we get distributions of rankings that the suits received Here are the results: https://i.imgur.com/CqsWYL6.png Interpretation Since the weights for each category are randomly selected rather than based on some sort of expert analysis of which speed category is most important, the results don't necessarily convey which suit the population at large would evaluate as the "most mobile". These results do give a good baseline around which to indicate what those numbers could look like, however. They also show off potential "rank bleed" in each suit class. The bigger the range of rankings that a suit receives, the less certain its ranking can really be evaluated to a single number in the hierarchy. I don't want to bias interpretation too much further. What I will note is that stamina and stamina pool are perhaps "overweighted" insofar as I think that many people would not weight these stats as highly as a random weight would assign compared to the others. Additionally, it's notably just from the raw data that the MinMando + Min Sentinel break the stamina regen curve really drastically. Each of them have 40 stamina regen, with their closest neighbor in the heavy class at 20. To put it in perspective, the Amarr Scout also has 40 stamina regen. This is definitely interesting, but I don't understand what is being hypothesized or proposed. If we were to assume that there is direct (or causal) relationship between mobility and viability, how might we explain the MinScout's efficiency ranking? Would we not expect it to be at the top of the pile rather than the bottom? Or am I thinking about this all wrong? Rank 1 is the "best" score, rank 20 is the "worst". The Minmatar scout is consistently rated highly since it has very high statistics in all the categories mentioned. Long term roadmap by Aeon Amadi Have a pony
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.02 20:28:00 - [728] - Quote I could've told you the MinScout was highly mobile :-) But what is your point? Are you proposing we should make it less so for the sake of normalization? It may be an outlier on your mobility scale but it isn't exactly topping performance charts in game. Quite the opposite, in fact. In this case, normalization would likely do more harm than good balance-wise. Don't mean to detract; just trying to figure out the "why" behind this exercise ... Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. RUST415 1	Posted - 2015.06.02 20:42:00 - [729] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I could've told you the MinScout was highly mobile :-) But what is your point? Are you proposing we should make it less so for the sake of normalization? It may be an outlier on your mobility scale but it isn't exactly topping performance charts in game. Quite the opposite, in fact. Don't mean to detract; just trying to figure out the "why" behind this exercise ... The why is: I was interested, and wanted to open up some discussion of this particular method. Once we have firm numbers for the new proposal, I can rerun this and see what kind of rank bleed we experience. The sprint speed suggestions indicate that perhaps the assault roles will bleed more into the higher ranks to challenge logistics suits in the new system. In that sense if we see substantial rank bleed in the proposal, we kinda have to conclude that the proposal isn't tying "mobility" overall to eHP. Perhaps this is the more desirable outcome and we can see if realistically the assault suit can attain a similar mobility ranking to logistics suits while logistics suits maintain some of the survivability Rat so desperately wants to inject. For the record, the ranks just solely by running speed are: Suit,Rank C-Sc,2 Gal-Sc,2 Am-Sc,5 M-Sc,1 Gal-Ass,6 Am-Ass,9 Cal-Ass,6 M-Ass,4 Am-Log,12 Cal-Log,10 Gal-Log,10 M-Log, 6 Am-Sent,20 M-Com,13 Am-Com,17 Cal-Com,14 Gal-Com,14 Cal-Sent,17 Gal-Sent,17 M-Sent,14 Long term roadmap by Aeon Amadi Have a pony
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.02 21:25:00 - [730] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Operating on gut feel here, but -33% at 0.6x seems too steep and too sudden a drop to me, Cross. Isn't 0.5x the unnaturally sluggish backpedal speed in merc quarters? If my understand is correct, this multiplier can be set via server-side hotfix. Even if we ultimately ended up with a very low multiplier, wouldn't it be better to iterate in that direction and monitor effects, rather than jump straight to what might be too much? Just to be safe? Please note that I'm no friend of wiggle; I've complained about it as much as anyone. I'm simply concerned about potential over correction and unintended consequence. Another thought. Wiggle isn't necessarily off or on. Let's assume a unit is presently able to dodge 80% of an incoming bullet stream by wiggling at 0.9x strafe. What percent would that same unit be able to dodge at 0.8x strafe? Still 80%? 40%? 20%? I don't think we can say with certainty. In my mind, this is a good reason to iterate and measure effect. I'm all for iteration, I'd just rather start at a low value - thus being farther removed from breaking mechanics - and tune upwards if able than to tune downwards too little and wait awhile, then tune downwards too little again and wait, etc. The other asset of a firmer reduction right out of the gate is that if the value of speed is indeed heavily weighted primarily by the value of strafe speed then this would serve to illustrate that point so that we are not building a ratio for speed/hp in a distorted manner by including the value of wiggle in the curve of our ratio. If we value either aspect, speed or HP too highly due to an improper outlier - the ability of wiggle to increase the value of speed - we run the risk of undercutting entire racial paradigms possibly making the Min and Amarr both unbalanced game wide (whether OP or UP). We're both clearly seeking redress of the same problems, and we see a lot of the same factors (such as the ability to hotfix the strafe modifier) we just seem to be weighting our concerns a bit differently with regards to priority. One of mine being that if you take the step of making a firm change (no larger than the increase that was made a few builds back) you get a much more clear and stark perspective on how large a portion of the value of speed is composed of strafe speed. Where as if you take baby steps downward then the shift is rather predictably smaller and less illustrative of what weight strafe speed carries compared to other forms of speed. I believe you are correct in assessing that wiggle is not a purely binary state, i.e. that strafe will hold value in reducing damage even if it is not breaking hit detection (and further that hit detection issues when compounded by aim assist implications are like not a simple yes/no prospect in their implications). Considering that I further think you are correct that we cannot say with certainty what % change yields what game wide result. That is why I've resorted to simple spot checks with on the field testing. If my low SP alt (aprox 7mill SP most of it in logi related skills not combat skills) in a STD logi suit with MLT mods (including a plate) can still meaningfully use wiggle behavior to evade damage then that - to me - indicates it is possessing of too high wiggle ability and by extension too much strafe in the current context. My sentiments on the subject are underscored by the fact that I am far from the most proficient slayer, or wiggler, in the game and thus it's a given that even with the same mechanical stats there will be players who can leverage their value and effect further than I. So while I may not know what % damage is being evaded at each given level of strafe I can say that ~4.4 strafe speed seems to be functionally too high and take a simple step from there to say - if we are to have a curve then the fastest strafe speed needs to be below that 4.4 mark. My STD Quafe Minja for example runs at only 91 HP less than the logi suit in question filling all slots and using only STD mods. And strafes at 0.685 faster than the wiggle ready logi fit. On a scale which caps out slightly over 5 that 0.685 is substantial and even considering the tightening of the sweet spot based on the loss of that 91 HP we're still looking at a substantial reduction to pull it out of wiggle range and I just don't see shifting the current mod by down from 90% to 80% even being in the running when it comes to that. I am of course open, as always, to further discussion on the topic. o7 CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.06.03 03:03:00 - [731] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: Pretty Graphs Really fascinating stuff. You can tell that Stamina is pretty powerful in this model since the Amarr seem to have a higher ranking than Caldari and Gallente, but the Minmatar's sprint speed with good stamina is also significant as it clearly tends to outclass other races within the role. The fact that Minmatar have a good mix of speed and stamina is also interesting since their ranking is more spread out, particularly at the heavier suits but that could be due to the very high stamina regen. I'd be very curious to see these graphs again with various proposed changes. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 2	Posted - 2015.06.03 03:17:00 - [732] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: You will jump higher when sprinting, lower when walking with a higher sprint modifier, lower speed Nooo! don't do that. There is no logic behind the proposal. I don't want to have to sprint every time I want to jump over a little fence. "Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.03 03:48:00 - [733] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I am of course open, as always, to further discussion on the topic. o7 Came home to find a new icon on my laptop's taskbar: http://i.imgur.com/ujrfVPJ.png http://i.imgur.com/w5x3k7b.png http://i.imgur.com/rufzdqB.png These Devs decided to move forward with too big a change. No doubt they had good reasons, backed by good science and the very best intentions. But things didn't go as planned. Years later, they're still recovering. Bad analogies aside (for now), my gut feeling is that'd it'd be less risky to iterate downward. Gently. Right or wrong, folks are accustomed to things feeling a certain way. There are plenty of other points to consider and debate, but user experience and expectations are at the top of the list (in my opinion, of course), and surprise! doesn't make for a great user experience. If we ultimately end up at 0.6x, then so be it. But I personally believe the road would be less bumpy if we got there via 0.8x to 0.7x. But that's only my two cents, and -- as you know -- I trust your and Rattati's judgement on this and all else (excluding EWAR ). o7 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
RedBleach LeSanglant Molon Labe. RUST415 837	Posted - 2015.06.03 05:51:00 - [734] - Quote Kill the Wiggle. Normalize the movement curve. Break the eggs and make the omelet. Make the cut and tear out the cancer. Rip of the bandaid. Throw the baby out with the bath water.... child support is expensive. Just do it and be done with it. Then pay the devil's dues if it ever catches up to us. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Ghost Steps G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 19	Posted - 2015.06.03 22:09:00 - [735] - Quote In my opinion logis and assault should have the same base speed and stamina, they both are medium frames, sounds logical. Caldari scout bonus sucks but i like to honor my name.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.06.04 15:20:00 - [736] - Quote just in case anyone forgot where we have gone with this before... here was the discussion from the last HP penalty and speed balancing we did regarding issues with shield extender and armor plates back last november https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181612 - apparently extenders almost got a speed penalty because of the cal scout. Thats wouldve been a nerf to all shield tanking for every suit despite the imbalance between armor and shield tanking. (Rattati almost got himself crucified over it lol) - we knew that logistics speed vs assault speed didnt make sense (this was back in November 2014 mind you) - there was concern that reducing strafing speeds would somehow work against us when you include aim assist and bullet adhesion. basically, less skill involved with shooting - i thought this was funny : "If you'd fix strafe speed you wouldn't have to herf hit detection. RollRollRoll" - from post #75 by Rattati himself.... "Someone said, just make them all strafe slower, but that "is" punishing everyone for the sins of the few." (and here we are today, nerfing strafe speeds lol) - there was talk about gallente vs caldari speed. confusion over why they have similar speed when in EVE they do not. there was agreement that gallente should have higher sprint speed than caldari its 21 page thread but give a read to know the history of what been discussed before
Ghost Steps G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 19	Posted - 2015.06.04 16:46:00 - [737] - Quote If strafing is dealt with then whats gonna happen to scouts, thats their most used way survive. Caldari scout bonus sucks but i like to honor my name.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.06.04 20:04:00 - [738] - Quote Ghost Steps wrote: If strafing is dealt with then whats gonna happen to scouts, thats their most used way survive. besides what? jumping and cloaking and using damps or generally being faster than everything else?
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 3	Posted - 2015.06.05 05:20:00 - [739] - Quote Going back to the old strafe speeds, hmmm. Would not that, at least partially, undo the weapon balancing vs aim assist since the strafe speeds were increased? Not that it necessarily is a bad idea, but since people are already suggesting that movement speeds would be increased as soon as possible again would it not make more sense to avoid that yoyo if at all possible? There are a lot of players saying that having this "high" strafe speed (just what? movement is still so slow in Dust that it feels like wading through thigh high mud) is a problem. The question of just how much of the problem stems from the aiming mechanics (no not the band-aid aim assist) than anything else still remains, and if the plan is to increase movement again asap is it not a good idea to at least take a glance at all the variables before deciding which to tweak first? (Or is this just one more of those "it would take too many hours right now so we will try to fix it in a sub-optimal way instead" moments?) The discussion seems to have moved on from the aiming mechanics to movement merely because CCP refuses to address the aiming mechanics. (for what ever reason) If you are willing to consider undoing the movement vs weapon balance vs aim assist balancing, why not at least take at least a passing glance at the aiming mechanics before undoing the recent work on those issues? Jumping is Strafing UP
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 777	Posted - 2015.06.05 15:31:00 - [740] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Ghost Steps wrote: If strafing is dealt with then whats gonna happen to scouts, thats their most used way survive. besides what? jumping and cloaking and using damps or generally being faster than everything else? Not sure you understand: Its pretty much impossible (if you are using a rifle) to kill anything over 500 hp quick enough to prevent it from turning around and shooting back. Without strafing this means that scouts will lose frequently and automatically to anyone with ~400+ ehp depending on how good the scouts aim is and how fast the target's reaction is. Removing strafing is a nerf to any scout that isnt shotgunning/plasma cannoning, and scouts will need to be buffed to compensate.

Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.06.05 17:00:00 - [741] - Quote The marksman scout will certainly lose much viability as a slayer. However if that viability came from exploiting hit detection issues, then it simply was never meant to be. The best I can suggest is: Fight at your optimal range, and outside your target's. Focus on wounded targets. Open fire on targets already engaged with others, from the flank. The cloak, despite all of it's shortcomings, allows us to do one thing really well: Observe. Picking your battles is really important. If despite all of that, scout success slumps, Rattati will notice it and will work to improve it. This is a blessing, because fear of having too much slayer capability is what holds the scout back. We may yet see better cloaks, improved ewar or other bastardry that will be more fun. Know what cannot be known.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.06.05 17:50:00 - [742] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Ghost Steps wrote: If strafing is dealt with then whats gonna happen to scouts, thats their most used way survive. besides what? jumping and cloaking and using damps or generally being faster than everything else? Not sure you understand: Its pretty much impossible (if you are using a rifle) to kill anything over 500 hp quick enough to prevent it from turning around and shooting back. Without strafing this means that scouts will lose frequently and automatically to anyone with ~400+ ehp depending on how good the scouts aim is and how fast the target's reaction is. Removing strafing is a nerf to any scout that isnt shotgunning/plasma cannoning, and scouts will need to be buffed to compensate. i understand that scouts are meant to be fragile. I understand they are meant for moving quickly and stealthily. I understand that are excellent at picking off stragglers and wounded targets. I understand they are excellent at hacking. and I understand that they are absolutely not suited for direct combat. Stop complaining that scouts can't slay. Scouts have a role, it's your choice if you want to play outside of it
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.06.05 17:55:00 - [743] - Quote Here's a question, will shield regen (recharge + delays) be redone to follow a speed vs hp curve? I think that the slowest units should have the highest regen, as theyre slower at getting into cover or avoiding enemies.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 778	Posted - 2015.06.05 19:29:00 - [744] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: The marksman scout will certainly lose much viability as a slayer. However if that viability came from exploiting hit detection issues, then it simply was never meant to be. The best I can suggest is: Fight at your optimal range, and outside your target's. Focus on wounded targets. Open fire on targets already engaged with others, from the flank. The cloak, despite all of it's shortcomings, allows us to do one thing really well: Observe. Picking your battles is really important. If despite all of that, scout success slumps, Rattati will notice it and will work to improve it. This is a blessing, because fear of having too much slayer capability is what holds the scout back. We may yet see better cloaks, improved ewar or other bastardry that will be more fun. Scout success is slumping already due to the cloaking nerfs, its already well under what an assault or sentinel can get to, which is fine. But removing strafing will nerf them even more. They are supposed to be weak in direct combat, not helpless. P.S. observing with the cloak in direct line of sight is not a good idea, its generally better to use passive scans to observe if possible, since anyone decent is much more likely to take a fat dump on your head if you are just standing there looking at stuff, the longer you sit there the more likely it becomes. DeathwindRising wrote: and I understand that they are absolutely not suited for direct combat. Stop complaining that scouts can't slay. Scouts have a role, it's your choice if you want to play outside of it Again right now they arent suited for direct combat, they are in a good place right now. Nerfing them more is going to make them too weak. Im not complaining that scouts cant slay, but every suit outside of perhaps the logi needs to be able to meet a baseline slaying ability or they are quite literally useless. Removing strafing will cripple scouts without buffing them in some other way, whether that is by buffing their slaying or buffing their scanning or whatever is irrelevant to me.
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.06.05 20:19:00 - [745] - Quote You missed my point entirely. Vesta Opalus wrote: Scout success is slumping already due to the cloaking nerfs, its already well under what an assault or sentinel can get to, which is fine. Agreed. Quote: But removing strafing will nerf them even more. They are supposed to be weak in direct combat, not helpless. [...] The scout may or may not slump with strafe nerf. IF it does, though, you can be sure that Rattati will notice and take care of it. I will gladly take quality-of-life buffs later on, in exchange for combat viability in the form of cheating hit-detection now. Open your mind to the possibilities of what we could do with scouts if we don't have to worry about assaults migrating to them to slay. Know what cannot be known.
Ghost Steps G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 19	Posted - 2015.06.05 21:03:00 - [746] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: The marksman scout will certainly lose much viability as a slayer. However if that viability came from exploiting hit detection issues, then it simply was never meant to be. The best I can suggest is: Fight at your optimal range, and outside your target's. Focus on wounded targets. Open fire on targets already engaged with others, from the flank. The cloak, despite all of it's shortcomings, allows us to do one thing really well: Observe. Picking your battles is really important. If despite all of that, scout success slumps, Rattati will notice it and will work to improve it. This is a blessing, because fear of having too much slayer capability is what holds the scout back. We may yet see better cloaks, improved ewar or other bastardry that will be more fun. Yea, like scouts get WP from using mics or using ewar which from being squeashy they become WP gifts. On PC there is an almost cero chances of picking your battles cus they move on squad formations. Caldari scout bonus sucks but i like to honor my name.
Ghost Steps G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 19	Posted - 2015.06.05 21:08:00 - [747] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: You missed my point entirely. Vesta Opalus wrote: Scout success is slumping already due to the cloaking nerfs, its already well under what an assault or sentinel can get to, which is fine. Agreed. Quote: But removing strafing will nerf them even more. They are supposed to be weak in direct combat, not helpless. [...] The scout may or may not slump with strafe nerf. IF it does, though, you can be sure that Rattati will notice and take care of it. I will gladly take quality-of-life buffs later on, in exchange for combat viability in the form of cheating hit-detection now. Open your mind to the possibilities of what we could do with scouts if we don't have to worry about assaults migrating to them to slay. I apricieate what Rattati does with hotfixes but waiting a month and getting gimped from using scout (my favorite role) until there is a fix to the scout, which most of the time is not attained with the first fix. Caldari scout bonus sucks but i like to honor my name.
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.06.05 21:51:00 - [748] - Quote You want to keep something broken because a role, that can easily be redefined, currently depends on it to be viable? Your own signature states caldari scout bonus sucks. If you feel that way, this is the first of many steps towards changing that. Know what cannot be known.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.05 22:03:00 - [749] - Quote I agree with Kaeru. "It might hurt Scouts" is not a good reason to not fix wiggle. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 782	Posted - 2015.06.05 22:16:00 - [750] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: You missed my point entirely. Vesta Opalus wrote: Scout success is slumping already due to the cloaking nerfs, its already well under what an assault or sentinel can get to, which is fine. Agreed. Quote: But removing strafing will nerf them even more. They are supposed to be weak in direct combat, not helpless. [...] The scout may or may not slump with strafe nerf. IF it does, though, you can be sure that Rattati will notice and take care of it. I will gladly take quality-of-life buffs later on, in exchange for combat viability in the form of cheating hit-detection now. Open your mind to the possibilities of what we could do with scouts if we don't have to worry about assaults migrating to them to slay. I agree, Im just saying pre-emtively making their other roles stronger/more viable or giving them something to give them better remote hole poking ability would be a good and necessary change if strafing is removed.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.05 22:28:00 - [751] - Quote In my opinion, Scouts have needed work since December, so I'm not particularly concerned about upsetting class parity. Hard to predict the net effect of the proposed changes. Strafe Reduction would likely worsen performance, but a tighter speed/hp curve could help. Interested to see how all this shakes out. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Ghost Steps G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 20	Posted - 2015.06.06 17:59:00 - [752] - Quote Strafing is part of any FPS game where the TTK doesnt have tendecy to miliseconds, i learned the strafing technique from HALO for example and i found it really enjoyable, a variable that adds skill to player and not dependant to straight numbers which is important but shouldnt be decicive. Caldari scout bonus sucks but i like to honor my name.
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.06 21:20:00 - [753] - Quote What?!? Partial Logi buffing proposal has become an "OMGbutbutbutScouts" thread??? lol, saw this coming right around.... page 3. Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 954	Posted - 2015.06.06 22:25:00 - [754] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: What?!? Partial Logi buffing proposal has become an "OMGbutbutbutScouts" thread??? lol, saw this coming right around.... page 3. What the hell are you talking about? Try reading. Not to mention the fact that any balancing potentially effects all suits. Typical anti-scout bias rears it's ugly head again.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.06 22:50:00 - [755] - Quote Ghost Steps wrote: Strafing is part of any FPS game where the TTK doesnt have tendecy to miliseconds, i learned the strafing technique from HALO for example and i found it really enjoyable, a variable that adds skill to player and not dependant to straight numbers which is important but shouldnt be decicive. Agreed. I don't think the problem is with the concept of strafing in and of itself so much as the lack of inertia in Dust's mechanics. I can't understand why some people can't make the distinction and want strafing killed altogether. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.07 00:44:00 - [756] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: What?!? Partial Logi buffing proposal has become an "OMGbutbutbutScouts" thread??? lol, saw this coming right around.... page 3. What the hell are you talking about? Try reading. Not to mention the fact that any balancing potentially effects all suits. Typical anti-scout bias rears it's ugly head again. LOL I'm not anti-scout or oblivious to balancing effects. I'm also just not oblivious (or silent) to how no matter what the topic once certain theorycrafrers become involved at the end of the day everything revolves around whats best for scouts. Learn to remember and comprehend. Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 955	Posted - 2015.06.07 01:39:00 - [757] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: What?!? Partial Logi buffing proposal has become an "OMGbutbutbutScouts" thread??? lol, saw this coming right around.... page 3. What the hell are you talking about? Try reading. Not to mention the fact that any balancing potentially effects all suits. Typical anti-scout bias rears it's ugly head again. LOL I'm not anti-scout or oblivious to balancing effects. I'm also just not oblivious (or silent) to how no matter what the topic once certain theorycrafrers become involved at the end of the day everything revolves around whats best for scouts. Learn to remember and comprehend. People were discussing how modifying strafe speeds for all suits would affect scouts. This was never proposed by Rattati and has nothing to do with buffing logis. Nobody is discussing how the proposed changes may affect scouts at all. You've just made that up in you head.
Greiv Rabbah ROGUE RELICS 317	Posted - 2015.06.08 20:49:00 - [758] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Would make a hell of a lot more sense to just switch Logi/Assault HP values instead of their speed values. And that right there is how you truly get slayer logi's. Please just stop talking Aeon, I dont think you've said something smart or on point in a while. Okay, so, a Logi with the speed of an Assault and the durability of a Logi.... ... Is somehow less susceptible to being a Slayer Logi... ... than a Logi with the speed of a Logi and the durability of an Assault... So what you're saying is that, a Logi suit with lower EHP and faster movement (comparatively speaking) is less likely to be a slayer than a Logi with higher EHP and -slower- movement (comparatively speaking). When the whole argument is that the best combination of EHP and Speed = winrawr. Consider this for a second. Slayer--------Slayer--------Support--------Slayer--------Slayer Scout--------Assault--------Logi--------Mando--------Sentinel Two slayer roles that are built for speed, Logi in the center playing support, and two slayer roles built for EHP. That seems much more natural and fluid on the transition than... Slayer--------Support--------Slayer--------Slayer--------Slayer Scout----------Logi-----------Assault--------Mando--------Sentinel and scouts arent support how? because i would think that with absurdly low hp, high mobility, and bonuses to ewar that theyre almost strictly noncombat. especially since turn speeds have been normalized for more than a year and strafe speeds on scouts dont make up for that fact. which would make them more support oriented than logis. i mean... my kdr is terrible enough without me going around LOOKING to get shot at. minjas are still weak enough that a stray bullet from a gunfight happening 60m off tags me and i'm dead Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.06.08 21:52:00 - [759] - Quote Greiv Rabbah wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Would make a hell of a lot more sense to just switch Logi/Assault HP values instead of their speed values. And that right there is how you truly get slayer logi's. Please just stop talking Aeon, I dont think you've said something smart or on point in a while. Okay, so, a Logi with the speed of an Assault and the durability of a Logi.... ... Is somehow less susceptible to being a Slayer Logi... ... than a Logi with the speed of a Logi and the durability of an Assault... So what you're saying is that, a Logi suit with lower EHP and faster movement (comparatively speaking) is less likely to be a slayer than a Logi with higher EHP and -slower- movement (comparatively speaking). When the whole argument is that the best combination of EHP and Speed = winrawr. Consider this for a second. Slayer--------Slayer--------Support--------Slayer--------Slayer Scout--------Assault--------Logi--------Mando--------Sentinel Two slayer roles that are built for speed, Logi in the center playing support, and two slayer roles built for EHP. That seems much more natural and fluid on the transition than... Slayer--------Support--------Slayer--------Slayer--------Slayer Scout----------Logi-----------Assault--------Mando--------Sentinel and scouts arent support how? because i would think that with absurdly low hp, high mobility, and bonuses to ewar that theyre almost strictly noncombat. especially since turn speeds have been normalized for more than a year and strafe speeds on scouts dont make up for that fact. which would make them more support oriented than logis. i mean... my kdr is terrible enough without me going around LOOKING to get shot at. minjas are still weak enough that a stray bullet from a gunfight happening 60m off tags me and i'm dead So I guess Scouts being number 2 in kills in PC is just a fluke, right? Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
E-Rock Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 92	Posted - 2015.06.09 04:12:00 - [760] - Quote So, umm, I guess the red carpet is being rolled out for the return of slayer logis costarring with commandos? Ohh dear... Japanese players call "hate mail", "fan mail".pÇÇµùÑµ£¼F¬PsñºS+êsñ½ -Founder of CKC and UCKC -Ahrendee Inc. #bringbackthewarbarge

Fluffy Exterminatus Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 42	Posted - 2015.06.09 10:57:00 - [761] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks... 8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply. Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV. Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance? How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo. Good Afternoon Sir we are here to talk to you about the Gaylente Agenda and why it is so importent that caldari are never mentioned. CCP Rattati - Grand Dragon Wizard of the Gaylente Agenda Touched by his noodly appendage
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.10 20:57:00 - [762] - Quote Hoping this doesn't lose traction. Really looking forward to better balanced interplay between roles. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.11 09:05:00 - [763] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Hoping this doesn't lose traction. Really looking forward to better interplay between roles. And drones :-) Edit: For whatever my two cents are worth, I don't think we should have high HP units outrunning low HP units. This is, of course, just one guy's opinion, but I believe it to be a reasonable opinion. I'm curious to see where this goes, honestly WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
DR DEESE NUTS 124	Posted - 2015.06.13 01:43:00 - [764] - Quote If assaults can barely be better then logis as being a slayer then the logi should be only slightly better at being Logi then my assault. I demand a huge increase in pg and cpu so it's right below logi and and two extra equipment slots. If logi can be a halfassed slayer I should be able to be halfassed a logi if I can't then logi is overpowered since it has too much versatility. A hp/speed curve also makes no since because there a fuckton of other stats. Like REGEN so you can actually utilise the hp Also what matters the most is frame fuckin size. A little fly is harder to hit then a usain bolt running 30m/s. The USS m`dick
knight guard fury Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2015.06.14 19:33:00 - [765] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Here's a question, will shield regen (recharge + delays) be redone to follow a speed vs hp curve? I think that the slowest units should have the highest regen, as theyre slower at getting into cover or avoiding enemies. no and for a good reason. (also lore). would you rather be a caldari with a high regen but activates slower or a fast acting but lower regen? and its not like its going to kickstart itself while your in combat anyway and thats what rechargers and regulators are for as well. Minmatar are weak, fast and have high recovery rates. Caldari are somewhat slow, heavy shield tankers but you dont have to wait very long for your shields to kick in into recovery. Kin of the Vherokior tribe I'm a pure minmatar loyalist I discuss things based on EVE lore.


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"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.

"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.

"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.

"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.

Caldari Loyalist

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Caldari Loyalist

Caldari Loyalist

Caldari Loyalist

Caldari Loyalist

Caldari Loyalist

"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.