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Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 745	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:56:00 - [91] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't have math, but I do have logic. You're ignoring a huge factor when just balancing speed vs HP in regards to. If the assaults' HP is countered by the lack of speed, and vice versa for the logistics', then the these factors are balanced against each other (no net advantage or disadvantage), and thus assaults and logistics are equal when comparing net speed/HP advantages and disadvantages. If that is the case, then the logistics comes out on top because with speed and HP being balanced with the assaults, that leaves logistics with a very large advantage with no counterbalance: the 3-4 equipment slots while assaults only have 1. If the speed and HP advantages and disadvantages of assaults and logistics cancel out against each other when the 2 suit types are compared with one another, and the logistics gets a ton more equipment slots, what does the assault have to balance against that? just a sidearm? It doesn't seem fair. Sure assaults get fitting bonuses to weapons to allow for fitting better weapons, but logis get fitting bonuses to equipment, and the savings from the equipment fitting bonus can be used to equip better weapons also. In life of this, I don't think assaults should get a speed nerf. Also, assaults are meant to be the frontline fighters that rush to objectives and clear areas. Reducing speed conflicts with their intended purpose, as it makes it harder for them to rush objectives. In short, I suggest keeping assault speeds intact. This. Seriously, who's complaining about Logis? They farm WP and are the only suit that can function in a role that doesn't require killing. Just because you can change something doesn't always mean you should. Agreed, I dont understand why people are trying to get logis buffed, they are there as a team support role and they are absolutely great at it as is.
hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 229	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:03:00 - [92] - Quote The cal commando needs the 1 sec shield recharge delay the sentinel has, or an extra low to fit 2 shield regulators. The shield recharge on that suit is so slow. Petition to ban the trainyard map.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 749	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:06:00 - [93] - Quote hails8n wrote: The cal commando needs the 1 sec shield recharge delay the sentinel has, or an extra low to fit 2 shield regulators. The shield recharge on that suit is so slow. Im not sure these will make enough of a difference to make cal comm viable, but certainly they need a combination of lower recharge delay and another low slot (the magnitude of the delay buff is up for debate)
hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 229	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:15:00 - [94] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: That's not necessary actually, it just works out that way because such a system is linear as well. Instead, the suits have been placed on the curve, so as to give that impression, and because it is intuitive, to a degree. But you can also place a dropsuit on the curve without it fitting on the "max X = min Y", and it will still be normalized. Also, you have to take the brick fit into account. If you do that, you actully see that commandos are still below a fictional line through the data set, and assault above, etc, indicating the strengths and weaknesses of each role. Of course you don't need to brick, so everyone should be able to find an acceptable niche for his/her playstyle. The brick fit may come into play after you implement another slot on commandos. As of now, the heaviest possible bricked Cal commandos will be faster than any tier Amarr Assault with two plates on it because calmandos only have 1 low slot. A max bricked Minando will be faster than any Amarr Assault with 2 identical plates, because proto minandos have two low slots. Other wise any adv/standard minando will be faster than any tier Amarr suit with 2 plates. Proto Galmando with three low slots bricked may be on par via speed with an Amarr assault that dedicates 3 slots to eHP but have superior reps. ADV galmando will be faster than any amarr assault Unbricked amarr assaults will certainly be slower than max bricked adv/standard commandos, and most likeley be slower than two max bricked proto commandos. IMO its bit unbalanced, especially for a race thats supposed to stack HP. I can tell that i'm gettin a bit too back-and-forth with this. Delving into hypothertical situations a bit much. Feedback doesn't mean debating your work. Concerning assaults i got some faith in ya. It will just need a comparision with your brick tanked chart. See how fast each suit can move tanked, and then polish of any edges. I already factored in the extra slot on the brick picture . I am actually thinking about asking protofits for assistance again, as that was amazing with the HAVs. So where are the slots going? As the owner of 4 proto commandos, armor commandos need an extra high-slot for fitting damage mods, and shield commandos need lows to increase survivability. Cal commandos need a better shield recharge delay. Petition to ban the trainyard map.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:26:00 - [95] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. As a CPM and thus community rep I feel it important to confirm, publicly and on the record that CCP Rattati is not a sufferer of melissophobia, unlike some poor unfortunates in our community. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:35:00 - [96] - Quote Hey Rattati, I would like something clarified. Is this movement speeds only, or are sprint speeds affected too? "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:37:00 - [97] - Quote Brush Master wrote: logi speed increase, about dam time Is your secret middle name "Tycus" CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:41:00 - [98] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Hey Rattati, I would like something clarified. Is this movement speeds only, or are sprint speeds affected too? CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. He confirmed movement, strafe, and sprint when responding to my post. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:44:00 - [99] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Hey Rattati, I would like something clarified. Is this movement speeds only, or are sprint speeds affected too? CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. He confirmed movement, strafe, and sprint when responding to my post. I see. Thanks for letting me know. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:45:00 - [100] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Well. This is interesting. Some thoughts: Slow speed will make the shotgun assault fits pretty much useless, this may or may not be a good thing depending on how you feel about shotgun assaults. Concern about killer bees activated. Heres what Im going to do if this change goes live: Delete my shotgun min assault fit. Create Min Logi fit: Add shotgun Add the exact same module layout (x4 adv extenders, x1 regulator, x1 damp, x2 kincat) Add core locus grenade Add remote explosive Add nanohive Add uplinks Add injector I lose my bolt pistol sidearm but now have better scanning, 4 times the equipment, and slightly less hp, I'd say its a wash. You also have a higher per fit ISK cost Vesta Opalus wrote: Also Im concerned that the amar logi will now be a much more attractive option for slaying than the Cal/Gal assaults. The Cal/Gal assaults have pretty ** poor weapon bonuses as is, so its not much of a sacrifice to drop those and get +2 equipment slots in return, and all you have to do to make up for most of the HP loss is lowball one or two equipment slots, in return you get (for example) a nanohive PLUS a crappy nanite injector and good uplinks + the amar logi uplink bonus. I did a thread awhile back about the Cal/Gal bonuses. Unfortunately at the time no resolution was reached due to a number of factors but I do still think the situation with the assault racial skills needs to be address even before the advent of these new polish elements in the OP. Vesta Opalus wrote:** I am happy to see talk of an extra module slot for commandos though (please consider giving Cal Commando better base shield regen and all commandos a bit better native armor repair as well). Edit to add: amar assault may be too slow to be effective after scrambler rebalancing, but who knows Commando native armor regen was already added during the earlier pass, I'd be inclined to see where things stand after they get their slots and movement shifts before altering their baseline further but keeping an eye on them I absolutely agree with. Though the next step may be a look a their racial skills because rather like the assaults they need some polish regardless. 0.02 ISK CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:46:00 - [101] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't have math, but I do have logic. You're ignoring a huge factor when just balancing speed vs HP in regards to assaults and logistics. If the assaults' HP is countered by the lack of speed, and vice versa for the logistics, then the these factors are balanced against each other (no net advantage or disadvantage), and thus assaults and logistics are equal when comparing net speed/HP advantages and disadvantages. If that is the case, then the logistics comes out on top because with speed and HP being balanced with the assaults, that leaves logistics with a very large advantage with no counterbalance: the 3-4 equipment slots while assaults only have 1. If the speed and HP advantages and disadvantages of assaults and logistics cancel out against each other when the 2 suit types are compared with one another, and the logistics gets a ton more equipment slots, what does the assault have to balance against that? just a sidearm? It doesn't seem fair. Sure assaults get fitting bonuses to weapons to allow for fitting better weapons, but logis get fitting bonuses to equipment, and the savings from the equipment fitting bonus can be used to equip better weapons also. In light of this, I don't think assaults should get a speed nerf. Also, assaults are meant to be the frontline fighters that rush to objectives and clear areas. Reducing speed conflicts with their intended purpose, as it makes it harder for them to rush objectives. In short, I suggest keeping assault speeds intact. Are you forgetting that Logis have next to zero base HP? Nowhere has it been said that Logis are getting a HP buff. Their low HP is the balance to their new found speed. Just like Scouts. Min Assaults will still be able to sprint close to 9m/s with a couple KinCats, and still have much better tank than their Logi counterparts. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:48:00 - [102] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Coolio. Have you considered forcing all equipment slots to be filled to make a valid fit? I have, but that will be a later part when I am balancing the same powercore for assaults and logistics. The key to avoiding the issue is to make the fitting reduction bonus on the Logistics significantly higher and then reducing the overall resources. This way fitting equipment is very 'cheap' but refusal to fit equipment does not free up many resources to spend on additional defenses. Since you're going to be touching on resources anyways for Logistics with the change in slots, this is the prime opportunity to address this issue. If a further push is needed here the CPU/PG costs of equipment could also be scaled upwards to give wider margins. Additionally if equipment use has a higher opportunity cost it wouldn't be unreasonable to value the logistics ability to use it readily at a higher level in overall role balance. But all of that is likely another layer of changes after these are deployed with the degrees determined by what trends emerge in game. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:48:00 - [103] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Doc DDD wrote: Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks... 8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply. Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV. Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance? How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo. Don't rant and derail the official community feedback threads, and leave the anti-shield conspiracy tinfoilery at the door. It's true, shields are literally nerfed every single patch time and time again other than that one patch that buffed regulators. The buff the AScR has almost destroyed shield tanking all on it's own. A militia AScR can absolutely wreck a 600 shield cal assault to a point where you can call it OP. Shield damaging weapons should not be buffed in order for them to be viable at killing armor. This directly nerfs shields when you do that. "Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 751	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:50:00 - [104] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: You also have a higher per fit ISK cost While I understand that ISK is a limiting factor for some people, it isnt for me, I couldnt care less. Cross Atu wrote: I did a thread awhile back about the Cal/Gal bonuses. Unfortunately at the time no resolution was reached due to a number of factors but I do still think the situation with the assault racial skills needs to be address even before the advent of these new polish elements in the OP. Yeah they are pretty lackluster, particularly the Caldari bonus. If these changes do go through we might need the assault bonuses buffed significantly (except the amarr bonus, which is already insanely good... depending on how far the scrambler nerf goes). Cross Atu wrote: Commando native armor regen was already added during the earlier pass, I'd be inclined to see where things stand after they get their slots and movement shifts before altering their baseline further but keeping an eye on them I absolutely agree with. Though the next step may be a look a their racial skills because rather like the assaults they need some polish regardless. 0.02 ISK Kind of agree, I think aside from the extra slot only the cal commando definately needs a buff (to its shield recharge delays, even with 2 low slots its not going to be able to get reasonable regen, and if its required to use those for regulators to get reasonable regen, why bother even putting them there, just leave them out and roll the regulator effects into the base suit).
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:55:00 - [105] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't have math, but I do have logic. You're ignoring a huge factor when just balancing speed vs HP in regards to assaults and logistics. If the assaults' HP is countered by the lack of speed, and vice versa for the logistics, then the these factors are balanced against each other (no net advantage or disadvantage), and thus assaults and logistics are equal when comparing net speed/HP advantages and disadvantages. If that is the case, then the logistics comes out on top because with speed and HP being balanced with the assaults, that leaves logistics with a very large advantage with no counterbalance: the 3-4 equipment slots while assaults only have 1. If the speed and HP advantages and disadvantages of assaults and logistics cancel out against each other when the 2 suit types are compared with one another, and the logistics gets a ton more equipment slots, what does the assault have to balance against that? just a sidearm? It doesn't seem fair. Sure assaults get fitting bonuses to weapons to allow for fitting better weapons, but logis get fitting bonuses to equipment, and the savings from the equipment fitting bonus can be used to equip better weapons also. In light of this, I don't think assaults should get a speed nerf. Also, assaults are meant to be the frontline fighters that rush to objectives and clear areas. Reducing speed conflicts with their intended purpose, as it makes it harder for them to rush objectives. In short, I suggest keeping assault speeds intact. Are you forgetting that Logis have next to zero base HP? Nowhere has it been said that Logis are getting a HP buff. Their low HP is the balance to their new found speed. Just like Scouts. Min Assaults will still be able to sprint close to 9m/s with a couple KinCats, and still have much better tank than their Logi counterparts. You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff. My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count. Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them. There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:05:00 - [106] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff. My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count. Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them. There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing. While I understand the point you're making, I feel like many people are undervaluing the Assault Bonuses themselves. An Amarr Logistics will not be able to make use of Laser Weapons nearly as well as an Amarr Assault. So if we go under the assumption you made that the speed/hp ratio effectively cancels each other out, would that not place the suits at similar survivability, with the Assault being better at killing due to their Assault bonus, and then the Logistics better at supporting with more equipment and bonuses to support it? Part of this may stem back to the time old issue of Assaults vs Commandos, and partially to the fact that many weapons perform very well, even without Assault Bonuses. I wonder if we did something like put a +1% Racial Damage/lvl bonus on the Assault (5% total) and then reduce damage of light weapons by 5%? Or something to more clearly solidify an Assault's advantage in terms of killing over other suits. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
alias lycan Capital Acquisitions LLC 43	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:07:00 - [107] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. As a CPM and thus community rep I feel it important to confirm, publicly and on the record that CCP Rattati is not a sufferer of melissophobia, unlike some poor unfortunates in our community. Rattati wasnt around long enough to remember. The real vets still have scars from the numerous stings. I believe rattati mentioned something about cal logis being punished for old sins. Well the sin was it was the only suit that could have 600 shielding with room to spare.
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:08:00 - [108] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff. My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count. Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them. There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing. Yet when Logis were slower AND have much lower HP, that was balanced? I'm no slayer, but If I can manage close to a 2.0 kdr in the lowest kdr suit in the game, then the Assaults will be fine. You can throw biotics on both suits, yes, but the Logi is nerfing itself more than the Assault for doing so. That said, I think the amount of speed nerf on the Assaults is too much. The fastest Assault should line up with the middle two Logis. I think the reason Rattati put their speed lower than that is because of the Basic frames. Assaults should be at least as fast as Basic frames. By doing that, then the slowest Assault will be as fast as the fastest Commando. No Assault should be slower than a Commando, Amarr scum or not. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:10:00 - [109] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Though the next step may be a look a their [Commando] racial skills because rather like the assaults they need some polish regardless. What do you mean by "polish" in this case, Cross, and what specifically do you have in mind? I agree that CA and GA Assault bonuses need improvement, but I'm inclined to strongly disagree that Commando racial skills are lacking. Bonuses to damage and reload speed make the Minmando an exceptional Swarmer. The same can be said for the Calmando as a Sniper. What could possibly be of greater value to these units than +damage and +reload? 100% in favor adding increasing the Commando's slot count and fitting its mobility to the speed/eHP curve ... but I don't think that they're racial bonuses are lacking. What am I missing here? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Gabriel Ceja Ready to Play 103	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:14:00 - [110] - Quote Can you also look into the caldari commandos shield regen because it's too long of a delay for a caldari suit it would be awesome if you can give the same shield regen stats as its Sentinel counterpart or something close to that. "Throw on the flux capacitor." activates fuel injector "WOOOOOO!!!"

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:15:00 - [111] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff. My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count. Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them. There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing. While I understand the point you're making, I feel like many people are undervaluing the Assault Bonuses themselves. An Amarr Logistics will not be able to make use of Laser Weapons nearly as well as an Amarr Assault. So if we go under the assumption you made that the speed/hp ratio effectively cancels each other out, would that not place the suits at similar survivability, with the Assault being better at killing due to their Assault bonus, and then the Logistics better at supporting with more equipment and bonuses to support it? Part of this may stem back to the time old issue of Assaults vs Commandos, and partially to the fact that many weapons perform very well, even without Assault Bonuses. I wonder if we did something like put a +1% Racial Damage/lvl bonus on the Assault (5% total) and then reduce damage of light weapons by 5%? Or something to more clearly solidify an Assault's advantage in terms of killing over other suits. I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Commander Noctus Gallente Loyalist 227	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:16:00 - [112] - Quote This I like. A commando that can actually get around the battlefield without an LAV. And that potential Gallente burst is absolutely lovely. I'd like to see the Caldari get some kinda special little bonus themselves though...perhaps a shield tank/regen buff? Jump buff? Weapon buff? Discussion for another time. That being said, as I have asked for a Logi buff before, my worries are the same as those that have already been voiced: Slayer Logi's/Killer Bees. But I'm not terribly afraid since things now between the two medium frames are much different than before. 1) Logi's have less tank and slightly less potential for tank as Assaults.* 2) Logi's lack weapons' bonus (to their racial guns) and lack a sidearm (minus Amarr). Some argue that they're lackluster, but that doesn't mean they don't play a part in gunfights. 3) Their EWAR is slightly better at finding people, but not for hiding. Adding more Dampeners means they lose tank. *The only thing that is irksome is that Logi's will have a noticeable CPU/PG difference between them and Assaults, affecting the tank. But only time will tell. Until then, I'll be eagerly waiting to rush opponents with my crazy-fast, shotgun toting Galmando Gallente User since Jan. 28th, 2013. Touched on every Gallente role since.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:18:00 - [113] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff. My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count. Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them. There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing. Yet when Logis were slower AND have much lower HP, that was balanced? I'm no slayer, but If I can manage close to a 2.0 kdr in the lowest kdr suit in the game, then the Assaults will be fine. You can throw biotics on both suits, yes, but the Logi is nerfing itself more than the Assault for doing so. That said, I think the amount of speed nerf on the Assaults is too much. The fastest Assault should line up with the middle two Logis. I think the reason Rattati put their speed lower than that is because of the Basic frames. Assaults should be at least as fast as Basic frames. By doing that, then the slowest Assault will be as fast as the fastest Commando. No Assault should be slower than a Commando, Amarr scum or not. "Yet when Logis were slower AND have much lower HP, that was balanced?" I don't see the relevance, as I was not making that case. I don't know if it's clear or not, but I feel like I should say that i'm totally fine with a logistics speed buff, I just don't see why assaults need such a drastic speed nerf, if a nerf at all. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:19:00 - [114] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff. My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count. Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them. There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing. Yet when Logis were slower AND have much lower HP, that was balanced? I'm no slayer, but If I can manage close to a 2.0 kdr in the lowest kdr suit in the game, then the Assaults will be fine. You can throw biotics on both suits, yes, but the Logi is nerfing itself more than the Assault for doing so. That said, I think the amount of speed nerf on the Assaults is too much. The fastest Assault should line up with the middle two Logis. I think the reason Rattati put their speed lower than that is because of the Basic frames. Assaults should be at least as fast as Basic frames. By doing that, then the slowest Assault will be as fast as the fastest Commando. No Assault should be slower than a Commando, Amarr scum or not. Logistics suit carry a lot of equipment. IMO, equipment weighs more than an armor plate. "Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:20:00 - [115] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. And we totally get that. If you will check the 100+ pages between the Logi threads Cross started, you would know that the intention is not to make Logis more appealing than Assaults to slayers. That is why Cross and Pokey and many others are saying, nerf Logi CPU/PG, increase Equipment fitting cost, and give Logis a better fitting bonus to equipment. This will leave TryHard slayer logi fits gimp in comparison to a good Assault fit. Also reworking the 2 crappy Assault bonuses will go a long ways. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:20:00 - [116] - Quote In my opinion the Caldari commando should have the same shield delays and regen like the cal. sentinel. 30HP/s 4 sec non depleted and 1 sec depleted delay. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:22:00 - [117] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. See that's where it gets really tricky because you're then dealing with a qualitative analysis of relative worth between Assault Bonuses (and you're right only 2 are really worth it) and having more equipment. I personally feel that people seem to put more worth in the equipment than they should, mostly due to leftover fear from when Logistics were stupidly broken, but again that's just a personal assessment. I think what Rattati is really going for here is "How can we make all suits feel roughly equally survivable?" and I feel that's a good direction to go with it. And as you have stated, the tradeoff of speed vs defense makes the suits 'equal' which I also think is a good thing. At which point my main question is "How can we make the Assault Bonuses feel like they're a fair tradeoff from the Logistics equipment?" Sadly I fear the answer is probably "Well if only the Commandos and Assaults were combined into one suit....." but that gets really tricky because it would basically mean the removal of Commandos from the game, which would likely be a nightmare on many fronts. Plus I have some pretty strong personal bias in that I love my Commando Q_Q So I guess for me I would say to all of the Assault players out there: "Assuming this speed/hp ratio goes through, what sort of changes to Assaults would you want to see in order to make the tradeoff between Assault and Logistics worth it, and solidify the Assault as the better slayer suit?" "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:22:00 - [118] - Quote Commander Noctus wrote: This I like. A commando that can actually get around the battlefield without an LAV. And that potential Gallente burst is absolutely lovely. I'd like to see the Caldari get some kinda special little bonus themselves though...perhaps a shield tank/regen buff? Jump buff? Weapon buff? Discussion for another time. That being said, as I have asked for a Logi buff before, my worries are the same as those that have already been voiced: Slayer Logi's/Killer Bees. But I'm not terribly afraid since things now between the two medium frames are much different than before. 1) Logi's have less tank and slightly less potential for tank as Assaults.* 2) Logi's lack weapons' bonus (to their racial guns) and lack a sidearm (minus Amarr). Some argue that they're lackluster, but that doesn't mean they don't play a part in gunfights. 3) Their EWAR is slightly better at finding people, but not for hiding. Adding more Dampeners means they lose tank. *The only thing that is irksome is that Logi's will have a noticeable CPU/PG difference between them and Assaults, affecting the tank. But only time will tell. Until then, I'll be eagerly waiting to rush opponents with my crazy-fast, shotgun toting Galmando Logistics suit is a logistics suit. It is not an assault therefore it doesn't need Assault bonuses. It isn't a frontline fighter therefore it doesn't need HP. The only job of the logi is to logi. Anyway, since it's an assault suit, I assume that the spot of the lost equipment modules on the Assault, is one taken by a sidearm and the other 2-3 are taken up by kinetic mechanics to increase their speed. "Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:23:00 - [119] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. And we totally get that. If you will check the 100+ pages between the Logi threads Cross started, you would know that the intention is not to make Logis more appealing than Assaults to slayers. That is why Cross and Pokey and many others are saying, nerf Logi CPU/PG, increase Equipment fitting cost, and give Logis a better fitting bonus to equipment. This will leave TryHard slayer logi fits gimp in comparison to a good Assault fit. Also reworking the 2 crappy Assault bonuses will go a long ways. I meant to say "Its NOT really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis" I didn't edit the post fast enough. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:23:00 - [120] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: In my opinion the Caldari commando should have the same shield delays and regen like the cal. sentinel. 30HP/s 4 sec non depleted and 1 sec depleted delay. Could not agree with you more. "Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.



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"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.

"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.

"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.

"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.