[quote=Celus Ivara]
Giving Assaults two Light weapons would ideally fix tons of problems with the game, while also letting us push Logis into the speed & eHP territory they need to really fulfill their role as in-the-trenches support.


[Commandos below]

Though the next step may be a look a their [Commando] racial skills because rather like the assaults they need some polish regardless.

So I guess for me I would say to all of the Assault players out there:

"Assuming this speed/hp ratio goes through, what sort of changes to Assaults would you want to see in order to make the tradeoff between Assault and Logistics worth it, and solidify the Assault as the better slayer suit?"

My biggest concer would be HP comperable Scouts and Logis being faster than the HP comperable Assault.

I tried to make some judgement based upon the images but could not really do so.

I don't want to go back to the days of slayer scouts or slayer logis. Is there any data you could give comparing speeds of HP equivalent roles?

Been advocating some version of this for months now. Granted some of whether this is viable comes down to the numbers, but I support the general concept. Those logi currently running with full slots shouldn't have their fittings constrained further but taking steps to prevent "equipment free" fittings seems very worth while.

My biggest concern as stated above somewhere is speed penalties to plates not being significant enough on Scouts and Logis. We don't need either to be better at slaying than Assaults.

It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault

Then why were the "killer bees" a problem? The had more hp than assaults and were slower, which exactly what they're going back to.

People like to forget that to achieve Min Assault level HP on a Min Logi, I have to sacrifice every one of my slots to tank. Where as a Min Assault can have one extender, one energizer, damage mod, plate, kincat, and shield reg or dampener. I have equipment, but I'm slow and only have 30 more HP than a suit made for killing me, after sacrificing all my slots just to be able to take a punch.

All modules fitted, all equipment fitted. Min Logi ends up with 21 more HP. Min Assault using 6 different modules, Min Logi using 2 (all shield and armor). The HP gap would be 0 if I didn't use a basic armor plate, and used another ferro or reactive plate.

The cal logi has an extra low slot and pg mods have been moved to high slots. Stack armor then supplement with shield extenders for a bricked dual tank. So it may be possible to just brick it

This is part of why I advocate the Cal logi getting a 4th equipment slot and losing that extra Low Slot. It is also why despite my usual inclinations I would actually support a requirement that logi fill their equipment slots.
Between the two I think we'll see a different profile. (Note, compact hives play a bit of havoc with this but they likely need toned down anyway so assume for current fittings that only one compact hive can be used to fill an EQ slot when filling all required slots. To make it easy to use current proto fits just fill the three slots present, leave the one Low Power slot empty and make sure there is enough remaining fitting to accommodate a compact hive thus simulating that 4th equipment slot).

Remember, the Cal Logi was the only slayer logi, as it had the bonus to shield extender modules ...

Your base HP spread for Scouts is with no modules fitted, yes? If so, then the same can be said for Logis. They have a roughly 70% HP spread, and this is across the same sized suit (medium frame).

This I can get behind. Though you'd have to be careful so that it doesn't "bleed over", as Adipem puts it, into the scout role.

Honestly I'm not sure applying a simple % Delta change is the most accurate way to approach this ...

The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which ... mobility crossing into Scout territory.

That fit is all over the place lmfao, did you make that just so you could say it was possible for a Gallente Assault to border Scout turf? That fit is just awful.

First of all, having Shield Extenders on a Gallente Assault is just dumb no matter what. Sure, you get 340 Shield HP but it's going to take you 24 - 28.5 seconds to fully recover that amount, of which it's going to be stopped -every time you take a bullet and every time you twist your ankle wrong on a 2m fall.

Precision Enhancer is about damn pointless when it's only good for finding anything besides Heavies at your limited 15m range. Plus, you have an Active Scanner, so the precision enhancer should be replaced.

Armor repair rate is abyssmal and with the hybridized Ferroscale/Vanilla plate combo you're unnecessarily taking mobility loss when you could have just used Reactives. With that low of repair rate and the split-tank you'll likely spend more time recovering than actually fighting and the window for said recovery is so extensive that anyone who came along would put you in the dirt. Too much risk in that.

And the Kin-Cats don't offer any benefit at all apart from your shotgun because sprinting has little to no application in combat outside of getting within Nova Knife/Shotgun range. Of which, there are much better suits/roles.

EVEN IF you want to dispute what I've said here - it's not a competitive fit, because if it were, you'd see it being used more often.

Anyone can cross into Scout mobility turf if that's all you focus on. Doesn't mean it's going to be competitive or in any way viable.

The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory.

your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed

6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up.
You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina.

If you think the 6% extra speed is:
A. Small
B. The only thing giving Min advantages

You're just plain wrong.



I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb.

You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math.

Than **** it. Nerf the Assaults, watch how well that works out for you guys ...

I'd suggest softening the blow by rolling out better "gank" racial bonuses for Gal Assault and Cal Assault alongside potential mobility changes.

Sprint
Basic = normal = 1.4x
Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x
Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x

Just because it's not a direct counter doesn't mean that the two aren't going to interact in some way.

... as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same .

My understanding is we are going with figures on page 1, so yes, Min assaults would suffer a sprint speed reduction. I was thinking about assaults in general and forgot about this tweak.

Specifically I was referring to Rattati's post stating that assault sprint speeds would remain the same as now, but I'm sure he meant apart from Min assaults, as he was referencing the page 1 proposal with the sprint modifier added.

I was under the impression this just refers to the sprint modifier.

This quote from Rattati:

Medium (Logistics and Assault)
Speed changes as in OP
Sprint changes,
Logis from 1.4 to 1.3 modifier, means they have the same sprint speed as they do now
Assault from 1.4 to 1.5, means they retain current sprint

I thought still stands, meaning sprint speeds won't change (except from Min assaults). I could be wrong. I haven't checked that page 1 assault speed x 1.5 = current sprint speed.

Maybe the post you quoted changes things don't know.

Don't spend too much time on the numbers until you have more data from me ...

IGÇÖm really sorry but this doesnGÇÖt make any sense.

I have taken things into account from here, and am pretty sure I will reduce assault speed much less, maybe 0.3 instead of 0.5 and also increase stamina and sprint modifier.

This actually nerfs Logi sprint speed? Por que?

Buff the proposed movement by .05 and put the multiplier at 1.4. Still slower sprint than Assault. You could even buff proposed Assault movement by .05 as well?

How about reducing assault movement by 0.3 rather than 0.5, like Rattati said he was thinking of doing.

This, and buffing Logi up by .05, not down by .05?

I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at.

[Why do you need to nerf the assaults?

Why do all your sprint speeds have an extra 5% multiplier?

I interpreted Rattati's latest comment to suggest +0.5 logi speed, - 0.3 assaults speed, not +/- 0.3.

Looking at the OP, Min assault speeds should be an equal amount higher than Amarr speeds are lower. So 4.9 rather than 5.

Ah! Forgot about that. Please add the Min assault speed difference correction from the OP as well

I think I'm being an idiot! The OP has a logi speed buff of about 0.3 not 0.5. So you were right the first time.

Sorry I doubted the spreadsheeting!

Also, what does a straight swap of current movement speeds between Logis and Assaults, plus using the 1.55 mod for Assaults, and 1.4 for Logis?

Interesting...

The sweet spot may be 1.35 for Logis, and 1.5 for Assaults, keeping the movement speed swap.

On the process of adding temporary items to protofits.com ...

Tweak Min Assault to 4.95 base and I think you have a bingo.

You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done.

I donGÇÖt care about your speed curve, I care about the roles in this game and their interaction with each other. Gimping the assault just so it fits on your pretty graph is not a good enough reason to nerf it.

Looks good.

To doubters, Gallente assault movement speed would still be significantly quicker than a commando. Sprint speed would be the same as now, and plenty faster than a logi.

Except for hitbox.

Buff the other stuff ....

Except for when they were, right?

But eHp isn't on the table, it's speed. I wouldn't mind assaults having LOGI health if their speed remained. I'll say it again: Not taking damage trumps having more damage to take.

Yeah, but thats what dust is about. Heavy snipers, fast assaults, fast heavies, tanked scouts.

Looking at a lot of the discussion and what Rattati has posted so far I do think it's good to correlate Base HP to movement.

I would say though that it is critically important to take into account HP, walk speed, sprint speed, stamina, and stamina regeneration in a complete picture and make sure that the way those stats are set the logistics suits and assault suits are best able to fulfill their roles.

If walk speed correlates to strafe speed and that's the most important combat movement in people's mind then the assault should probably have the best walk speed. After that take HP to Movement curve and adjust the other stats (sprint speed modifier, stamina, stamina regeneration) so it falls in line.

Beat me to it, so...... This ^

No a one uses speed reducing HP modules.

Speed > Armour

High speed high hp suicide suits don't really matter when you are talking about survivability. Sure it can run 9m/sec for a bout few seconds, then wait twice as long to run again. If damaged at any point, waiting almost 12 seconds for shields to start coming back at measly 20 HP/sec is laughable. Not to mention that armour repair... Why even add plates if it takes you 3.5 MINUTES to get back? The only good thing about this suit is that if you manage your stamina properly, don't get scanned and manage to get close, your suit has a shotgun bonus. Beyond that though this is a suicide suit. Slayer suits are self sustaining and built around a playstyle the suit itself is made for and that suit is a blatant attempt at showing off certain stats possible while ignoring it's glaring failures. It's easily scanned, even passively, it's got not got nearly enough stamina or stamina recovery to accentuate it's speed (which is why the Minmatar suit works so well) and it has no means of properly healing it's health in a meaningful way.

So in short, your example is sorely lacking. You show it's possible to have a decent speed with ok eHp, but you also show at the same time how bad you are at fitting suits. And I don't mean that mockingly, I sincerely mean that it would take intentional effort to make a suit less survivable than this.

Good idea. Maybe we're looking at mobility backwards.
Sprint: Logi > Assault. Movement: Assaults > Logi.

Will put together some numbers later today

... the cautious approach.

.....? I said the exact same thing and you guys said that it was guarantee'd slayer Logis.

Maybe I should just get Kain to speak for me from now on?

And you guys wonder why I'm argumentative and confrontational.

Correct me where I'm wrong:

Movement
* Nerf MN Assault base movement speed.
* Buff Logi base movement speed.
* Buff Commando base movement speed.

HP Potential
* Nerf Assault base HP.
* Buff Commando slot count.

Ask what?

I dunno

Added "Not Aeon's Idea":
> Google Doc <

* Decrease Assault base HP by 25%
* Decrease MN Assault base movement from 5.3 to 5.2
* Set Logi base movement / sprint = Assault base movement / sprint

Spitballing, of course. What do you think?

Adipem, I have to commend you on all the work you're doing making these models for each argument. Thank you.

Concerning the most recent edition, what about a bricked out version? 25% less HP on base stats is only so much. In the end if we still have break-dancing assaults that have 60 less eHP it will all be for nothing.

Is there some way in which I have misapplied the conceptual aspects here?

Joking aside not directly they dont. Indirectly, simply by not equiping plates and biotics to level 5 means you can wiggle wiggle alot better than than most players.

When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better.

This is related but takes a bit of a different spin on the whole Logi/Assault speed issue; give them the same base speed. Give Assaults better stamina but less sprint speed and Logis better sprint speed but lower stamina. An Assault needs to be able to run for extended periods of time, move around, and engage targets. Logis need to be able to sprint across openings (I.e. short distances) to get to a teammate who is downed/injured/ammoless to assist them. If base speed is standardized and we simply adjusted the sprint/stamina, it would fit in with the requirements of each role.

With everything else going like Rattati suggested on the thread, would this be a valid compromise for people? The assaults with be able to run a bit farther but for short distances they will not be as fast as the logis and slower than the scouts.

Just want to chime in: I haven't actually looked at your numbers adipem, but I'd really be in favor of logi's having (comparatively) lower sprint speeds, in exchange for faster walk speeds. While using an active piece of equipment like a rep tool, logi's can have major issues trying to keep up with a sentinel they're repping if the sentinel decides to sprint at all.

I also do think that assault walk speeds should be lowered, in exchange for (slightly) faster sprint speeds, as this helps address issues with wigglewiggle destroying hit detection.

MOOOAAAR HP - TANK LOGIS!!! Sounds like a blast, put me right next to my Amarr Sentinel brother. Logi's become slow logi stations and not a character that can follow the squad. Interesting... but I don't know how fun it would be until we tried it.

If we want to tone it down just a touch so Logis CAN'T get into Scout territory unless the Scout is fully brick tanked, I'd be OK with that too.

... I'm cool with this EHP/Speed curve

... A dedicated middle-ground slayer after these changes (situated above the 4.5m/s margin)

... why, again, we can't just bring Logi's up to par with Assaults and just hit Assault's EHP, keeping them both at the same speed.

I've been one since mordu's through the ups and downs and now we are buffing other suits and nerfing assaults so I was thinking why not just remove assaults and combine them with mandos..scouts will have speed followed by logis mandos heavies...No more high ehp speed suits, I think this would add more diversity as people would then need to use scouts for speed and mandos for slaying..I was against this but now I believe it might be the best solution, scouts = low hp but fast, logis low hp speed at current assaults, mandos slower than logis but faster than heavies..thoughts?

Thanks for the spreadsheets Adipem. Regarding "my" model, I wasn't stating what I personally think should happen, but what Rattati suggested he might do to tweak his original proposal, based on feedback. So really this an approximate Rattati's latest proposal. Though it wasn't formal, and was likely to change. Still, it's the latest word. Except I believe Min assault speeds are a little higher on the sheet than his design.

If I was going to design a proposal, I'd go with this:

Reduce Assault hp by 50 (half as much reduction as Aeon's tab). Or maybe only around 30? Reduce speed by about 0.3, which should get them onto the curve. Give assaults a bonus to movement speed, 1% per level. At level 5 this should give them speeds almost equal to what they have now. Increase logi and commando speeds as per Rattati's proposal.

Speed and hp together is now the assault suit's defining speciality. They fit the curve, but are bonused to break it. Allowing them to be light weapon, frontal attack slayers, but unlike commandos, they rely on speed more than brute strength and high defence. Scouts will be faster, and logis will be almost as fast, but neither have the hp, fitting, or bonuses to beat assaults at frontal assault.

Keep sprint and strafe multiplyers what they are now. Tweak stamina so it makes sense. Maybe tweak Min assault speed or hp a bit.

The speed hp curve will be good. Assaults have a role defined by their bonus. Assaults as a whole will suffer a small nerf, which hopefully will balance them when compared to scouts and sentinels. (Though cloaks probably still need fixing for true balance).

I would prefer it if the slowest race of the slowest role of a frame size is as quick as the fastest race of the fastest role of frame size:


Numbers!


,,Baseline,
Frame,Light,5.35,
Frame,Medium,4.75,
Frame,Heavy,4.15,
,,,
Role,Fast,0.15,
Role,Medium,0,
Role,Slow,-0.15,
,,,
Race,Fast,0.15,
Race,Medium,0,
Race,Slow,-0.15,
,,,
Frame,Role,Race,
Light,Fast,Fast,5.65
Light,Fast,Normal,5.5
Light,Fast,Slow,5.35
Light,Normal,Fast,5.5
Light,Normal,Normal,5.35
Light,Normal,Slow,5.2
Light,Slow,Fast,5.35
Light,Slow,Normal,5.2
Light,Slow,Slow,5.05
Medium,Fast,Fast,5.05
Medium,Fast,Normal,4.9
Medium,Fast,Slow,4.75
Medium,Normal,Fast,4.9
Medium,Normal,Normal,4.75
Medium,Normal,Slow,4.6
Medium,Slow,Fast,4.75
Medium,Slow,Normal,4.6
Medium,Slow,Slow,4.45
Heavy,Fast,Fast,4.45
Heavy,Fast,Normal,4.3
Heavy,Fast,Slow,4.15
Heavy,Normal,Fast,4.3
Heavy,Normal,Normal,4.15
Heavy,Normal,Slow,4
Heavy,Slow,Fast,4.15
Heavy,Slow,Normal,4
Heavy,Slow,Slow,3.85



Scout: 2 EQ (Light, Fast)
Light Frame: 2 EQ (Light, Normal)
Pilot: (Light, Slow)

Assault: 1 EQ (Medium, Fast)
Medium Frame: 2 EQ (Medium, Normal)
Logistics: 4 EQ (Medium, Slow)

Commando: 1 EQ (Heavy, Fast)
Heavy Frame: 0 EQ (Heavy, Normal)
Sentinel: 0 EQ (Heavy, Slow)

I also think that changing the sprint/strafe/backwards modifiers for a few specific suits is a reallly bad idea.

Since its only ehp speed that is on the curve, the other stats are up for grabs are they not? I mean there is a lot to play around here.

If assaults need to give up a slot to be "viable" in terms of speed, then assaults' utility vs logi's have to be evaluated with one less low slot attributed to assaults.

1. How hard would it be to break strafe speed out into its own category?
2. Thanks for building and maintaining all these sheets o7

Adipem you running for cpm?

I'd like to say that I am fine with the proposed plan of nerfing assault base speed while keeping the sprint and strafe speeds he safe (as Rattati stated he wanted to do). I might hate it when its out, but I'm willing to at least give it a try.

Would love input on the subject of how an actionable modifier value could be reached, and of course from the various method authors about what - if any - changes they would like to see to their method should a strafe modifier shift be instituted game wide.

Totally in support of iterative balance changes.

That being said, presuming we could hone in on a raw number that falls below the "I can strafe enough to break hit detection" threshold, I would personally prioritize that and/or not class it as a balance change at all. It is in my view (which is open for discussion of course) not a balance change so much as a fix as it runs directly converse to players having continuing access to the ability to break basic mechanics of the game.

I think you're spot on, and honestly in light of the above reasoning I would heavily lean towards doing the alteration to strafe not only first but post haste so that this conversation we are all having in the thread here could be advised by the effects of a changed strafe mechanic.

After all, it should be much easier to hotfix in a changed modifier than debate, consider, and implement a proper game wide speed/hp ratio, no? Besides which, if we arrive at a solid ratio and then alter strafe, what does that do to our ratio? Where as if we alter strafe and then use that to advise a ratio, we won't be doing our work twice as it were.

There is another potential solution to nerfing assault speed/hp.

Set the speed / hp curve (line) to run through current assault values and current sentinel value.

Buff the hp / speed of other classes up to the line. Most likely resulting in buffing scout base hp, as hit detection doesn't like them being faster than they are now, and buffing commando movement, to stop them overlapping with sentinels.

Now, this would obviously make scouts OP. So the next thing to do is normalise other stats and define gains and sacrifices, such as EWAR and slots.

So, for example. Give all suits equal shield and armour regen, stamina, stamina regen, EWAR and module slots (maintaining variation between races).

Now, trade scout mod slots for EWAR, stamina and the cloak / extra equipment slot.
Trade logi sidearm and stamina for equipment. Keep assault and logi EWAR as it is now.
Trade commando grenade, EWAR and mod slots for two light weapon slots.
Trade sentinel EWAR, mod slots and stamina for heavy weapons.

Keep current bonuses.

Net result:
All suits on hp / speed curve.
Assaults stay the same.
Scouts gain hp, loose regen.
Commandos and logis gain speed and regen.
Sentinels gain regen.

Only potential issue I see, would be OP logis. Perhaps they could make another trade. Maybe regen.

I think you're spot on, and honestly in light of the above reasoning I would heavily lean towards doing the alteration to strafe not only first but post haste so that this conversation we are all having in the thread here could be advised by the effects of a changed strafe mechanic.

After all, it should be much easier to hotfix in a changed modifier than debate, consider, and implement a proper game wide speed/hp ratio, no? Besides which, if we arrive at a solid ratio and then alter strafe, what does that do to our ratio? Where as if we alter strafe and then use that to advise a ratio, we won't be doing our work twice as it were.

Came up with a different perspective after giving this more thought last night. What if Max Survivability was not a function of Speed to HP, but was rather a more specific function of Strafe Speed to HP? Further, what if there were a "sweet spot" on the grid, a point beyond which wiggle works best?

Putting together another spreadsheet as we speak ...

:: tinkering ::

As a minmatar scout, and possibly that highest strafer in the game, I would gladly put my own strafe on the chopping block if it meant the end of the wiggle break-dance. Take it, end it, let the madness just stop.

One day if we get better hit detection, inertia, framerate, or any combination of those, maybe we can bring strafe speeds back up. Until then, nothing is worth buggering up hit detection.

As a minmatar scout, and possibly that highest strafer in the game, I would gladly put my own strafe on the chopping block if it meant the end of the wiggle break-dance. Take it, end it, let the madness just stop.

One day if we get better hit detection, inertia, framerate, or any combination of those, maybe we can bring strafe speeds back up. Until then, nothing is worth buggering up hit detection.

these are without plates yes?

excellent

So here's a data crunch I did in an attempt to answer Pokey's question about creating a unified "mobility" statistic that is a composite of the individual core speed statistics: Speed, sprint speed, strafe speed, stamina pool, and stamina regen. I applied a modification of the process that the National Research Council used to derive their rankings of PhD programs in the United States. It is detailed fairly thoroughly here: http://phds.org/about/ranges .

The short-and-sweet explanation is this:

Methods
(1) Data for each role+race combination in the game was collected in the categories of speed, sprint speed, strafe speed, stamina pool, and stamina regeneration

(2) The data was normalized so that the average value of each of the above 5 statistics across the different suits is 0, and its standard deviation is 1. http://www.inside-r.org/r-doc/base/scale . This scaling procedure allows data which may be measured in different units to be compared on a direct, numerical scale in a more appropriate way.

(3) 1000 simulated rankings were generated. To rank the suits, a weighting factor for each of the 5 suits was uniformly randomly selected. Essentially this step assigns importance to each of these categories randomly. Each suit gets a composite score which is the sum its statistics multiplied by the statistics' weighting factor. That is:

Composite = stat_1 * weight_1 + stat_2 * weight_2 + ... + stat_5 * weight_5

And then the suits are ranked with the suit ranked number 1 having the highest composite score (coughMINSCOUTcough)

(4) Since this process was repeated 1000 times, we get distributions of rankings that the suits received


Here are the results: https://i.imgur.com/CqsWYL6.png


Interpretation

Since the weights for each category are randomly selected rather than based on some sort of expert analysis of which speed category is most important, the results don't necessarily convey which suit the population at large would evaluate as the "most mobile". These results do give a good baseline around which to indicate what those numbers could look like, however. They also show off potential "rank bleed" in each suit class. The bigger the range of rankings that a suit receives, the less certain its ranking can really be evaluated to a single number in the hierarchy.

I don't want to bias interpretation too much further. What I will note is that stamina and stamina pool are perhaps "overweighted" insofar as I think that many people would not weight these stats as highly as a random weight would assign compared to the others. Additionally, it's notably just from the raw data that the MinMando + Min Sentinel break the stamina regen curve really drastically. Each of them have 40 stamina regen, with their closest neighbor in the heavy class at 20. To put it in perspective, the Amarr Scout also has 40 stamina regen.

I am of course open, as always, to further discussion on the topic. o7