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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 31 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 08:15:00 - [1] - Quote Dear players, as part of a Logi and Commando review, and my own rational hatred of irrational things, we will be aligning speeds across the board in an imminent hotfix. Consider this initiative only a part of the changes. I believe this will give Commandos and Logis a real buff, as they will be more mobile, even if stacking hitpoints, and will be a needed reduction in the Assault class overall, with the outliers of Minmatar Assault overwhelming moblity, and Amarr Assault hp stacked fits. A picture says more than a thousand words, so please take a look. I am also constructing the brick version of this chart to see how that pans out. My assumption is that Commandos will need at least an extra slot to be able to tank comparably o other Roles. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 08:57:00 - [2] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: While you're at it, mind fixing the Gallente speed being the same as Caldari? Gallente are supposed to be very fast for short bursts of speed (MWD eating capacitor). We could simulate that by giving Gallente similar sprint speed to Minmatar, but very bad stamina. Would help the Duvolle too, in the whole "get close and rekt" part. Which speeds aren't aligned? I didn't notice, they are always supposed to be the same as CA. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:15:00 - [3] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: A simulation of that in DUST would be like giving Gallente same or better sprint speed than Minmatar, but nerfing the stamina so it can only be used in short bursts. Logged on the Big Board "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:33:00 - [4] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks... 8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply. Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV. Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance? How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo. Don't rant and derail the official community feedback threads, and leave the anti-shield conspiracy tinfoilery at the door. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:41:00 - [5] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Okay this may seem a bit ranty, but its just my observations, no dev bashing here. I'm all for across the board consistency. Here the assaults suits are getting a really big nerf. From what i can tell from the picture, logis get 0.25 m/s buff, the assault suits roughly 0.5 m/s speed nerf, commandos .35 roughly speed buff. The Min Assault will be as fast the current Min Logi. Caldari and Gallente as slow as the current Amarr logi. And that is really, really slow. The Amarr assaults are gettin the speed of current heavy suits. Oh wow. Thats a little too much Mr. Rattati. In a Foot race, post changes, guessing roughly of course. 1. Min scout 5.7 m/s 2. Gal Scout Caldari Scout 5.4 m/s 3. Amarr scout, Min Logi 5.25 m/s 4. Gal Logi, Caldari Logi, Min Basic 5 m/s 5. Min Assult 4.85 m/s 6. Amarr Logi, Gallente basic, Caldari Basic 4.75 m/s 7. Gallente Assult, Caldari Assault, Amarr Basic, Minmatar commando 4.6 m/s 8. Amarr assault, Caldari Commando, Gallente Commando, Min heavy basic 4.4 m/s 10. Minmatar Setinel 4.25 m/s 11. Amarr commando, caldari heavy, gallente heavy 4.2 m/s 12.Caldari setinel, gellente setinel 3.9 m/s 13. Amarr heavy 4.85 m/s 14. Amarr setinel 3.6 m/s With the planned tiericide, I confidently predict the return of the slayer Logi. Identical slots, more fitting space, and now faster than the assault suits. After all, the Min Logi will have a 4/4/4 slot layout at all tiers, and is getting the min assaut speed. Fit militia equipment to free up fitting space and the ADV min logi becomes the current Proto Min Assault. You can apply the same logic to the other assaults with dare i say it, lackluster bonuses. A cal logi with 5/3/3 slots or a slower caldari assault that can reload. Gal logi with extra fitting space or a slow gal assault that has less dispersion? And the Amarr assult....well might as well run a commando or heavy suit instead, more HP and more fire power, and identical if not faster speeds. I can't wait for the forums will begin to erupt about the min logi's s hit box detection, etc etc. Pretty much every thing they spull out of thier butts about the min assault witll be applied to the min Logi. Suggetion: Tighten up the assault speeds. Start the minmatar at 5.1 m.s, Gal calari at 4.9 and end with the Amarr at 4.6 m/s Slightly slower than thier respective racial logis, but certainly faster then comandos. I appreciate the thought, but there is a reason I am trying to move away from "feelings" and more to math and facts. The design needs to make sense, and players trade speed for tank, that's why dropsuits need to fit on the curve. If you don't want less speed, then the only way is less tank, but we already buffed tank for a reason and I don't want to change that. Speed has never been normalized properly before, and it needs to be done on a stable foundation, i.e. the speed/ehp curve. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:00:00 - [6] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I appreciate the thought, but there is a reason I am trying to move away from "feelings" and more to math and facts. The design needs to make sense, and players trade speed for tank, that's why dropsuits need to fit on the curve. If you don't want less speed, then the only way is less tank, but we already buffed tank for a reason and I don't want to change that. Speed has never been normalized properly before, and it needs to be done on a stable foundation, i.e. the speed/ehp curve. True, and i'm not knocking the logic of what your putting together. As I understand it, you want the fastest member of one class to be at the same speed as the slowest member of the next class, because each class has higher potential eHP. Fastest medium = slowest light suit Fastest heavy suit = Slowest medium suit. Overall its pretty decent with the exception of the Amarr Assault. A Assault has roughly 200 more ehp than the Amarr logi bout half a meter slower. GA and CA commandos with 200 more base eHP will be same speed as A. Assault. Min commando with roughly 170 more eHP will be faster than A.Assault. So instead of a smooth curve, theres a big dip for the A. Assaults and a spike for the commandos. I'm suggestion this can be smoothed out by slightly increasing the proposed speed changes for the assault class, and slight decrease for the commando changes. Not by much, just by 0.5 meter in either direction. The fastest heavy suits is the Min commando, and the Amarr assault being the slowest medium suit, thier speeds should be roughly the same. Then you have a smooth balanced curve of speed and eHP. That's not necessary actually, it just works out that way because such a system is linear as well. Instead, the suits have been placed on the curve, so as to give that impression, and because it is intuitive, to a degree. But you can also place a dropsuit on the curve without it fitting on the "max X = min Y", and it will still be normalized. Also, you have to take the brick fit into account. If you do that, you actully see that commandos are still below a fictional line through the data set, and assault above, etc, indicating the strengths and weaknesses of each role. Of course you don't need to brick, so everyone should be able to find an acceptable niche for his/her playstyle. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:03:00 - [7] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:20:00 - [8] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Coolio. Have you considered forcing all equipment slots to be filled to make a valid fit? I have, but that will be a later part when I am balancing the same powercore for assaults and logistics. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 13:17:00 - [9] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: That's not necessary actually, it just works out that way because such a system is linear as well. Instead, the suits have been placed on the curve, so as to give that impression, and because it is intuitive, to a degree. But you can also place a dropsuit on the curve without it fitting on the "max X = min Y", and it will still be normalized. Also, you have to take the brick fit into account. If you do that, you actully see that commandos are still below a fictional line through the data set, and assault above, etc, indicating the strengths and weaknesses of each role. Of course you don't need to brick, so everyone should be able to find an acceptable niche for his/her playstyle. The brick fit may come into play after you implement another slot on commandos. As of now, the heaviest possible bricked Cal commandos will be faster than any tier Amarr Assault with two plates on it because calmandos only have 1 low slot. A max bricked Minando will be faster than any Amarr Assault with 2 identical plates, because proto minandos have two low slots. Other wise any adv/standard minando will be faster than any tier Amarr suit with 2 plates. Proto Galmando with three low slots bricked may be on par via speed with an Amarr assault that dedicates 3 slots to eHP but have superior reps. ADV galmando will be faster than any amarr assault Unbricked amarr assaults will certainly be slower than max bricked adv/standard commandos, and most likeley be slower than two max bricked proto commandos. IMO its bit unbalanced, especially for a race thats supposed to stack HP. I can tell that i'm gettin a bit too back-and-forth with this. Delving into hypothertical situations a bit much. Feedback doesn't mean debating your work. Concerning assaults i got some faith in ya. It will just need a comparision with your brick tanked chart. See how fast each suit can move tanked, and then polish of any edges. I already factored in the extra slot on the brick picture . I am actually thinking about asking protofits for assistance again, as that was amazing with the HAVs. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:05:00 - [10] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: On a second note... making sure all equipment slots are filled is almost useless, too... Slayer logi with 3 or 4 compact nanohives? Make all equipment slots mandatory + increase CPU/PG fitting bonuses for logis + reduce CPU/PG for logis = plenty of CPU/PG for equipment but not much left for brick tanking and proto weaponry. exactly "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:12:00 - [11] - Quote alias lycan wrote: Cross Atu wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!! Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster? The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. As a CPM and thus community rep I feel it important to confirm, publicly and on the record that CCP Rattati is not a sufferer of melissophobia, unlike some poor unfortunates in our community. Rattati wasnt around long enough to remember. The real vets still have scars from the numerous stings. I believe rattati mentioned something about cal logis being punished for old sins. Well the sin was it was the only suit that could have 600 shielding with room to spare. I've played longer than you, or a matter of fact anyone here. I was the first alpha tester and have played every build ever since "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:19:00 - [12] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: So I guess for me I would say to all of the Assault players out there: "Assuming this speed/hp ratio goes through, what sort of changes to Assaults would you want to see in order to make the tradeoff between Assault and Logistics worth it, and solidify the Assault as the better slayer suit?" Assuming eHP / Speed is implemented as described, spitballing ... Caveat: Idea #1 assumes that other units are threatening to encroach upon Assault slayer territory. This potentiality is arguably unlikely; Idea #1 is presented as a contingency. Idea #1) Wire all Assaults with a higher sprint multiplier than other frames (credit to Ripley Riley). Thinking short bursts of speed for moving from cover-to-cover or getting to the frontlines faster. This should be a "special property" unique to Assault frames. Regular Sprint Multiplier (current ---> future) Assault Frame: mCharProp.movementSprint.groundSpeedScale = 1.4 GA/CA Assault Base Speed: 5 m/s ----> 4.6 m/s MN Assault Base Speed: 5.3 m/s ---> 4.8 m/s AM Assault Base Speed: 4.8 m/s ---> 4.3 m/s GA/CA Assault Sprint Speed: 7.35 m/s ---> 6.76 m/s MN Assault Sprint Speed: 7.79 m/s ---> 7.06 m/s AM Assault Sprint Speed: 7.06 m/s ---> 6.43 m/s Special Sprint Multiplier (proposed) Assault Frame: mCharProp.movementSprint.groundSpeedScale = 1.5 GA/CA Assault Base Speed: 4.6 m/s MN Assault Base Speed: 4.8 m/s AM Assault Base Speed: 4.3 m/s GA/CA Assault Sprint Speed: 7.25 m/s MN Assault Sprint Speed: 7.56 m/s AM Assault Sprint Speed: 6.77 m/s If my maths are correct, the MN Assault with this "special sprint multiplier" will sprint at a slightly lower speed (7.56 m/s) than the AM Scout and the future MN Logi (7.72 m/s). Kindly note that only sprint speeds are affected by this proposed "special multiplier" and that base movement speeds (and other speeds derived from base movement) remain exactly as Rattati has outlined on Page 1. Idea #2) Improve Gal and Cal Assault bonuses: * Gal Assault: Replace bonus to dispersion with bonus to rate-of-fire * Cal Assault: Replace bonus to reload with bonus to kick while aiming-down-sights Disclaimer: Part-Time Assault Making Assault sprint faster is a very smart idea. Maybe reducing Logi stamina as well. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:36:00 - [13] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: I think it's rapidly becoming clear that the debate on this topic is going to come down to whether it's possible within the proposed "speed vs eHP" trade off paradigm to make additional changes that result in balance. The issue here is that we have these knobs to turn where suit balance is concerned: - Fitting (PG/CPU) - Role+Racial bonuses - Speed and speed related statistics (the idea of messing with the sprint modifier is novel) - Slot layout - Base HP and other HP related statistics (EG repair rate and shield delay) Of all these, speed and HP are probably the least discrete. What I mean by a "discrete" variable is that even the smallest change in that variable has a high potential to change balance. Slot layout, in particular, is extremely discrete just based on the evidence that the different suit classes provide. By tying HP and speed together in a firm relationship, we lose a "knob" from the above list. We can still twist the twin HP-speed subsystem knob, but they can't really be twisted independently. The ensuing discussion has focused around the other knobs: Slot layout. suit bonuses, and combinations of those. Here's my question that I don't really have the answer to because it's hard, but really needs to be considered: Is it possible to achieve a reasonable state of balance after adopting the HP-speed tie-together given the highly discrete nature of slot layouts and to a lesser extent suit bonuses? It's possible that the answer is no, which puts us in Kage's camp. In that case we can still tie speed and HP together in the proposed way, but tune that combined "knob" to a different position. On a different note, I think it's important to note that speed doesn't affect survivability exclusively. Speed is also a substantial contributor to aggression potential. I think that's one of the reasons I'm a bit afraid of the "killer bees" returning. From an anecdotal perspective, I run ferroscale plates as opposed to regular ones. It's not that the speed necessarily just keeps me alive more than the HP bonus, it's that I can also choose to take fights and chase down fleeing opponents more readily. In different skype chats yesterday, i was discussing this a lot. The designs need to make sense, intuitively. In order of priority, imagine a pyramid Slot progression needs to make sense, within roles and between roles PG/CPU capacity as they relate to slots and their layout HP and Speed are inverse, that's just physics and again intuitive These 3 principles form the foundation for Dropsuits. While they don't make sense, all the small things on top don't really matter. That's why I am not tackling role bonuses, because the foundation is cracked and not worth building on. When all roles have the proper foundation, we can move forward with finetuning 1) I intend for Logis and Assault and Basics to share the same PG/CPU and possibly total number of slots. The way to balance it is to require logis to fit equipment, and give each role the specific fitting bonuses for the role. 1a) We did this for Sentinels and Assaults, and it worked very well by aligning them and normalizing based on Scouts, that were the best in class. Just by aligning slots and capacity/slot, with a dash of hp, they became viable. Now, after some time has passed, we can take the next step. Logis and Commandos are undeniably the least viable specialty roles, and Assault are very strong. If it means they need to take a kincat instead of a plate, then so be it. I have already taken into account 2) Now when they all have a normalized and sound progression, we can finally move to where I want to be. I want to stop messing around, and patching dropsuits. They need to be stable and a fixed point. I then want to balance with PG/CPU costs and power of Gear, and role bonuses. Is the Caldari Assault bad? Maybe, but then we figure out the tunable parameters we have instead of always messing around with the foundation. Shield regen, cost of regulators, fiting bonus to Rail tech, etc. In short, talking about role bonuses now, is like putting a bandage on a broken leg. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:38:00 - [14] - Quote True Adamance wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis. See that's where it gets really tricky because you're then dealing with a qualitative analysis of relative worth between Assault Bonuses (and you're right only 2 are really worth it) and having more equipment. I personally feel that people seem to put more worth in the equipment than they should, mostly due to leftover fear from when Logistics were stupidly broken, but again that's just a personal assessment. I think what Rattati is really going for here is "How can we make all suits feel roughly equally survivable?" and I feel that's a good direction to go with it. And as you have stated, the tradeoff of speed vs defense makes the suits 'equal' which I also think is a good thing. At which point my main question is "How can we make the Assault Bonuses feel like they're a fair tradeoff from the Logistics equipment?" Sadly I fear the answer is probably "Well if only the Commandos and Assaults were combined into one suit....." but that gets really tricky because it would basically mean the removal of Commandos from the game, which would likely be a nightmare on many fronts. Plus I have some pretty strong personal bias in that I love my Commando Q_Q So I guess for me I would say to all of the Assault players out there: "Assuming this speed/hp ratio goes through, what sort of changes to Assaults would you want to see in order to make the tradeoff between Assault and Logistics worth it, and solidify the Assault as the better slayer suit?" I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the qualitative value. I do think the assaults' bonuses are canceled out by the logitics' bonuses, so I don't count it as a point for the worth of assaults vs logistics and their equipment. Anyway, I'm still not convinced the assaults need a speed nerf. I would be alright if it was something small, but the proposal is far too drastic, and undermines the assault's role of being a mobile frontline fighter that rushes objectives. Furthermore, I think the logis would be in a good place with the speed buff without having to nerf assaults. I meant to say "Its NOT really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis," but I didn't edit the post fast enough. Seems like you know what I meant, but felt I should clarify. This is what I mean. Assaults are as Kage put it "Mobile Frontline Fighters that rush objectives". This is their fundamental role. Ensuring that their are always players on the frontlines pushing for the objective. Speed nerfs directly and rather significantly hinder this role. Only one suit at this time to my knowledge is "bleeding over" into the Scout Class the others seem relatively balanced in terms of their movement speeds without modifying them via modules. Logistics I can understand want to have some bonuses but in being one I realise I don't need to be faster than an Assault to do my job well, if anything I want to roughly be the same speed as them as there is no point in out running the team I am supposed to be supporting, if I am with multiple forms of equipment then I am directly bleeding into the Scout Class. Were my Assault's Speed nerfed and the Logi buffed significantly I would just tank my Amarr Logi better and use that as an Assault suit for its speed and being able to carry equipment. If the speed values were standardised or the Logi buffed to Assault Speeds the suits would still in their current forms retain enough unique traits to merit the use of the Assault. Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:47:00 - [15] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Going to echo Kalante's concerns about the Assaults. The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory. Amarr Assaults -maybe- a problem because they have a really good slayer bonus toward a very powerful weapon system (scramblers/assault scramblers). This nerf is universal though and while it's great that it helps Logis, it's nerfing Assaults for the sake of 'progression' and 'making sense' with no real cause. I'd imagine someone (probably a CPM) sat behind the curtain and nudged this change along with the good intentions of making Logis and Commandos more viable but at the same time did one of the following: a) Instituted a level of anti-assault bias in what can only be considered an unnecessary Assault nerf. b) Figured that the hit to Assaults would be temporary and that we'd be okay with taking that hit until changes were made to re-balance us (even though we're still waiting for decent bonuses) c) Simply overlooked it. None of those are a good justification for why we shouldn't iron this out -now- and honestly, if your problem is the Minmatar Assault, hit the Minmatar Assault. Leave the Assaults at their current speed, buff the Logis, and then we get around to having more viable bonuses for Assaults -THEN- we can nerf them. At the moment it's wholly unnecessary and the only real reason to reduce their speed is to satiate a level of OCD in the EHP/Speed curve. EDIT: Mandatory equipment fitting on Logi's is also a bad move because then you're just going to have people clamoring for Type-II Logi's that are more oriented for combat. They're doing that -already- so adding ammo to the argument isn't helping much. I'm all down for decreasing PG/CPU and decreasing fitting costs for equipment though. Bad tinfoil is bad, it's hard to overlook it Aeon "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:59:00 - [16] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Perhaps instead of a speed to HP curve, its speed to mobility curve, where mobility is defined as a function of speed and stamina? You could then vary speed for logistics to maintain the proper mobility by throttling stamina as your independent variable? Why not both! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:38:00 - [17] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Please dial down the crazy. All I'm doing is challenging your claim, Aeon: Aeon Amadi wrote: The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory. ^ I believe this claim to be false. If the MN Assault were magically removed from play, do you think all would be well and balanced? No, you're not. You're contradicting my claim by using terrible examples, shoddy results, and cherry picked data. You're not doing anything beneficial here except for trolling - per the norm - and trying to institute this superiority complex that somehow everyone is trying to infringe on what you do because #reasons, ignoring the fact that if they wanted to they would have already. What's worse is you're not doing it for any particular reason other than to simply -be contradictory- because there is absolutely nothing to gain from this argument besides your personal satisfaction that someone might buy into your -100000000/10 troll. In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed as a whole because the issue of the Minmatar Assault 'heavy scout' has only arisen recently after it received a buff whereas every other Assault hasn't seen changes since 1.7 and has yet to follow suite in what you would have us believe is an epidemic of players running around with 900 EHP dual-tanked suits and kin-cats to put them at 9m/s, yet in another thread go on to complain that brick tanking is a problem because armor plates are the most bought item. You can't decide which you want to go with because there is absolutely no validity to either claim: Either players are running speedy/high EHP dual-tank suits or they're running slow, brick-tanked armor suits. Pick one and stick with it less you look even more like a fool. I recommend some smooth jazz. All you are doing is picking fights with people with differing opinions. Honestly, all you have said is "don't nerf my Gal Assault", without taking any of the careful consideration and community work going into this. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:53:00 - [18] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Rattati, I beg of you: Adjust eHP instead of speed for assault if they don't fit on the curve. They've needed an HP nerf for a while. Don't screw with their mobility though. That would be like giving the scrambler rifle ridiculous kick or something to balance it, instead of just nerfing the damage a tiny bit. HP is the problem here, and I can personally promise that. They have so many slots that they can use kincats, is my opinion. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:11:00 - [19] - Quote Latest update is; Medium (Logistics and Assault) Speed changes as in OP Sprint changes, Logis from 1.4 to 1.3 modifier, means they have the same sprint speed as they do now Assault from 1.4 to 1.5, means they retain current sprint Balance stamina pool and stamina regen to cover similar ground over time, sprinting/walking vs constantly running, nerf Min Assault coverage. Any shield regen is off the table for this round, must keep focus on mobility vs ehp. 8 H/L slots at all tiers 4 EQ (unless traded) 1 LW 1 G 0 Sidearm (unless traded) = 14 slots CPU for all factions STD/ADV/PRO 170/260/385 PG for all factions STD/ADV/PRO 30/45/67 Fitting bonus to EQ approx 10% per level All EQ must be fitted at all tiers Amarr retains sidearm for EQ slot Still don't know what to do with CA sidearm or EQ Commandos Same speed as proposed in OP 1 additional slot at H/L = 8 total 5 H/L 2 Light 1 EQ Layout to align with sentinel (AM most lows, CA most highs) same slots for all tiers 5% fitting bonus to LW to normalize PG/CPU against Sentinels CPU for all factions STD/ADV/PRO 140/200/285 PG for all factions STD/ADV/PRO 26/37/51 "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:24:00 - [20] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: wait, what? Same CPU and PG across the board for all races??? What? Am I reading that right? If you look at the data, as I have, the differences are negligible. As explained in a previous post, I intend to balance through role bonuses and fitting costs. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:35:00 - [21] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I was hoping logis would keep the proposed speeds, or at least be as fast as assaults. I guess these revisions are acceptable though. uh they do, it's the sprint that will differentiate. Both will retain sprint speeds, normal movement will be reduced for assault and increased for logi. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 08:02:00 - [22] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Can we apply the same modifiers to the Assault jump height? I know i sound like a broken record, but I hate not being able to jump those goddamn short barriers! Why can't you use myofibrils? They increase jump height I'm aware they exist, I'm saying the baseline is too low likewise you shouldn't need them on a heavy to jump a curb Because that baseline is tied to movement speed or something and isn't a separate value that can be adjusted. At least I thinks what I remember hearing. That's interesting because won't these new movement speeds affect everyone's jump heights? They will all become lower yes? They are inter-related in the same way that walking and sprint speed are inter-related Since the assault is getting a boost to the sprint ratio, up to 1.5, from a 1.4 baseline, I am asking for the same to be applied to the jump height You will jump higher when sprinting, lower when walking with a higher sprint modifier, lower speed "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:31:00 - [23] - Quote After digging around all day in stamina and regen, I can safely conclude that with regard to mobility, the Minmatar faction has, due to I believe a fundamental misconception, been double dipping in the speed jar. The comparisons were done on both "distance covered until stamina pool is fully recharged" and "average speed while covering a fixed distance". The intent with the design was to allow minmatar to travel approximately 5% faster, and Amarr approx 5% slower. Whereas, minmatar actually travels 10% faster and 15% faster than Amarr. Now, I don't want to punish them, but bring the rest up. For example, this means that Caldari Assault will now have 35 stam regen instead of 20, and Amarr 45, while Minmatar stays at 50. With the reduction of normal speed, and differentation through sprinting, I hope we have a really good model as a foundation for speed. The rules of thumb as applied to the Medium class now: Mobility (stamina pool and recovery) CA/GA = normal Amarr= 5% lower Minmatar = 5% higher Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x eHP Basic = normal Logistics = lower Assault = higher Speed Basic = normal Logistics = higher Assault = lower Shield Regen on hold While there is nothing gamebreaking about this increase, it will result in more fluidity across the spectrum and be a little more enjoyable. This will have a cascading effect, as for example Light Basics are very out of shape in regard to most of these things. The other basics are more in line. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:34:00 - [24] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Just something I was playing around with, an alternative idea on quantifying Mobility vs HP. This is just a rough, conceptual project (because this is what sickness looks like) so by no means are the numbers anything you should focus on. More or less showing an idea for a methodology of design. In short instead of comparing just movement speed and HP, you take a look at a composite of Movement Speed, Stamina, and Stamina recharge and then convert all 3 into a single value, and then compare it against HP. The advantage of this is, for example in the case of Logis and Assaults, you can give the Logistics more mobility but lower movement speed due to superior stamina, or vice versa. I present two test case studies that net fairly similar results but do so by buffing different stats. I also understand that the Mobility Index is tricky to come up with since it attempts to assign a cumulative worth of various stats and their weight within that sum. Math and ****. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s-Y9wlM7v8P6KT0xsjhkQqruUPDmJkuXWrTU2mswmMg/edit?usp=sharing Who knows, it may just be gibberish, haven't had much sleep lately and if this keeps up I'm going to start looking like Rattati. The way I chose was to calculate mobility as a "traverse" index, how long does it take to cross X meters, and how far can I get through one sprint and sprint recovery phase. I need to the same thing for shields and shield regen. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:12:00 - [25] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: ... as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same . So the MN Assault will still sprint faster than the AM Scout? If we're sticking to the figures on Page 1, this overlap would not occur. MN Assault Base of 4.80 with a sprint multiplier of 1.5 yields sprint speed of 7.56 (less than AM Scout's 7.72). If not the figures on Page 1, what figures are we using? My understanding is we are going with figures on page 1, so yes, Min assaults would suffer a sprint speed reduction. I was thinking about assaults in general and forgot about this tweak. Specifically I was referring to Rattati's post stating that assault sprint speeds would remain the same as now, but I'm sure he meant apart from Min assaults, as he was referencing the page 1 proposal with the sprint modifier added. Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x ^ This excerpt from his latest post has me confused as well; if I'm reading this correctly, it returns an altogether different set of numbers than those graphed on Page 1. And both of these number sets are different from the number set needed for Assaults to maintain current sprint speeds at a 1.5 multiplier. :: tinkers with spreadsheet :: Now I am home and practicing my guitar, wondering whether to brave Bloodborne again, or stay here and do more math. Don't spend too much time on the numbers until you have more data from me, I have taken things into account from here, and am pretty sure I will reduce assault speed much less, maybe 0.3 instead of 0.5 and also increase stamina and sprint modifier. It's all good guys, and I am trying to make a smart, robust and fair system out of the thing we have. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:17:00 - [26] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I'll take the movement speed over the sprint speed -ANY- day. Why am I not surprised. But I concede it's not a worthless stat, though I suspect the proposed reduction will have only moderate in game effect. Too slow and it's a problem, but this proposal is only a minor nerf. And may I just say, on the subject of incremental changes. I said a number of times, prior to the major assault buff, that adding a module slot at the same time as 100 base hp, was too much of a buff in one go. Seems I was right. So it's a problem that I would prefer to have movement speed over sprint speed? Is that why you're mockingly posting rolley-eyed smileys? Excuse me while I accept the point that my opinion isn't worthwhile here. BS aside, if it's so much of a minor change then why would it be up for debate for Logistics players? Early you said it was meaningless, now you're saying it's not a worthless stat but it's a minor change - but if that's the case then it wouldn't be as controversial as it is. Because it's not. Let me speak from experience here: Prototype Gallente Assault (oh nooos he's talking about his playstyle, something he's familiar with instead of talking out of his ass about something he doesn't play) with x5 Complex Reactive Plates = 4.75m/s movement speed right now. After the nerf, that drops down to 4.37m/s That's right around the same movement speed as a Gallente Commando (which obviously is a pretty stark difference in mobility). Interestingly enough, what I get for that by comparison is: Gal Assault with x5 Complex Reactives: 193.75 shield 673.75 aarmor 867.5 EHP 19.5hp/s armor repair rate Gal Commando with absolutely nothing on it: 487.5 shields 656.25 armor 1143.75 EHP 4 hp/s So the trade-off for adding on a bunch of Reactive Plates is that I have the same mobility as a Commando (with faster sprint speed -I guess-), worse EHP, no second light weapon, and a grenade. Functionally? The Commando weighs in as the victor because he has more firepower, better bonuses, and higher EHP. The Assault gets... Well, higher sprint speed and a grenade. Do you see my issue now? The Assault has nothing that makes it unique, the bonuses are subpar, and now the mobility is going to be on par with Commandos in certain situations albeit with a lack of EHP and damage application. What role does the Assault serve? A bridge between Scouts and Commandos with none of the benefits of either...? Instead of trying to address that, we're noting the fact that they're being used because other roles aren't up to snuff and punishing them for that. We're not hallmarking on distinctive roles or unique applicability, we're just nerfing it because it's "whats in" right now. I have decided not to read your posts in this thread anymore, and soon you will be banned, probably, for ranting, insinuating and tinfoiling. Even though I hate to do it, I will explain this once more. Players are always drawn to the best combination of HP and speed, this has been demonstrated often enough in DUST 514. Therefore, I am attempting to eliminate that "draw" by having a semi-fixed ratio of hp/speed so players can actually just choose what they want to play for the right reasons. Another insinuation of "Rattati just likes straight lines, there is no reason" and there will be consequences. Even on top of that, Assaults are the top meta right now for that reason. If I reduce Assault down to the curve and drag logis and commandos up to it, there is less risk of a nerf/buff chain reaction. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:21:00 - [27] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Good thing its super late/early otherwise my good senses would get the better of me. I'm actually having trouble trying to tie down your arguments. What and Why? Aeon Amadi wrote: I can't even wrap my head around the irony here - the argument (I assume as I still haven't gotten a direct answer) was that Assaults were too mobile and got too much EHP for this hypothetical EHP/Speed curve Yet, not three pages ago, we were arguing that an Assault can get 9m/s sprint speed with 900 EHP. So what's the -actual- problem? What are you guys trying to accomplish here besides making the shoe fit after you've hit the foot with the hammer? Again I'm indifferent, but I don't find it hard to understand or locate the what and why of the arguments, whether we agree with them or not is not important to fundamentally understand what others see as a problem. Others clearly believe that assaults have too much hp for their mobility, that is literally the basis of the concern, and it didn't' seem to be some unstated intention. Rat's suggestion is clearly some form of compromise as an attempt to allow assaults to keep pushing the frontal lines by being able to cover the same distance in the same time as they currently do while still fitting on his regression line of ehp and speed which is based on scout and sentinel anchor points. The scale Aeon Amadi wrote: "Scouts should have the same movement speed as Logis" in this case and watch the cascade of hatred/rage come pouring out of the Barbershop. Aeon Amadi wrote: I'll take the movement speed over the sprint speed -ANY- day. It might be possible that you miss the point of the curve. By reducing the scout speed to logi status, it then gains logi ehp potential. Also any introduction of new suits (not happening), would easily be placed on this spectrum based on knowing just one of the numbers on this stat. Also we can theoretically with a ehp speed scale reduce assault ehp potential and increase their base speed if you value speed more so than health, in which case its not the curve but the value in speed which is the source of conflict here. In short, I'm just trying to see what is really the core of your concerns, I can't tell if not understanding the concerns of the other side, or its that you just value base walk speed more than ehp, or you think 2 things changing at once is terrible, or that assaults shouldn't have to follow the tic for tac exchange which all the other suits are being modified by because game mechanics don't work with a simple curve. I don't have to defend the position because its not mine, but I'd say its rather hard to give a good discussion when the list kind of goes all over the place rather than focusing on one concern at a time. edit: I have a feeling its the last underline/bold is the base of your concern, which is a good topic as there are many variables in the game besides speed and ehp. But then we should be discussing that, and not the other stuff. You said it better than I could. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:23:00 - [28] - Quote castba wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Would it be possible to lower the strafe speed multiplier by any chance? Having more tactical, use cover effectively instead of charge then wiggle wiggle fire fights would be great. Yes, but we actually just increased the strafe penalty on plates, but overall reduction of strafe can also been done, and contemplated by me often. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:31:00 - [29] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: castba wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Would it be possible to lower the strafe speed multiplier by any chance? Having more tactical, use cover effectively instead of charge then wiggle wiggle fire fights would be great. Yes, but we actually just increased the strafe penalty on plates, but overall reduction of strafe can also been done, and contemplated by me often. strafing at 60% base movement speed in chrome wasn't a feature too many people cried over. I still dunno why they upped it to 90 in 1.4 I would happily consider it again for the sake of other players, but I'm a MKB twitch fps player by heart and I think skill should be rewarded, and yes, good strafing while aiming is a difficult skill to master. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.29 09:45:00 - [30] - Quote When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. We can have dynamic strafe speeds as well, so assault can be slower than logi, sprint faster, and still have superior strafe speed. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.29 10:20:00 - [31] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: When assault is worrying about it's speed, let's be honest. Is it about the run-strafe speed. Because I see assault players saying "I will trade run for sprint any day of the week" even though fast sprinting should get you in and out of combat situations and be better. We can have dynamic strafe speeds as well, so assault can be slower than logi, sprint faster, and still have superior strafe speed. This is going to exacerbate the extant problem, sir. I respectfully request that you not actively provide avenues for people to exploit the hit detection in the game. This is first, last and all reasons in between why strafing is the most important consideration. Heimdallr69 copped to as much when I called them out on it. All of the others who are crying about the change have studiously ignored my commentary. I have repeatedly tried to bring this to light, as it is easy to use and provably effective. The fact that this is the primary and most successful "tactic" it shows that strafe speed is a problem. Being rewarded for standing in the open and juking back and forth two meters rapidly is quite frankly nonsensical, especially when it is MOST effective within the optimal ranges of the most destructive CQC weapons in the game. This is how a calassault duels a heavy and doesn't take more than a quarter of their shields while utterly destroying his opponent at 20m versus a boundless HMG. This is not "skill" it is a mechanical failure on the part of either the client or the server. Nono, it just means, I have the means to always have assault and scouts have the highest strafe speed, regardless of walking/running speeds. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

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