When all roles have the proper foundation, we can move forward with finetuning

1) I intend for Logis and Assault and Basics to share the same PG/CPU and possibly total number of slots. The way to balance it is to require logis to fit equipment, and give each role the specific fitting bonuses for the role.
1a) We did this for Sentinels and Assaults, and it worked very well by aligning them and normalizing based on Scouts, that were the best in class. Just by aligning slots and capacity/slot, with a dash of hp, they became viable. Now, after some time has passed, we can take the next step. Logis and Commandos are undeniably the least viable specialty roles, and Assault are very strong. If it means they need to take a kincat instead of a plate, then so be it. I have already taken into account

2) Now when they all have a normalized and sound progression, we can finally move to where I want to be. I want to stop messing around, and patching dropsuits. They need to be stable and a fixed point. I then want to balance with PG/CPU costs and power of Gear, and role bonuses. Is the Caldari Assault bad? Maybe, but then we figure out the tunable parameters we have instead of always messing around with the foundation. Shield regen, cost of regulators, fiting bonus to Rail tech, etc.

In short, talking about role bonuses now, is like putting a bandage on a broken leg.

Bad tinfoil is bad, it's hard to overlook it Aeon

Indeed but they do not 'need' to be outrunning the primary frontline soldiers they are supporting. They 'can' however afford to be faster.

http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/1192/11893

^ Roughly 850HP at almost 9 m/s sprint. It isn't as overt a case as the MN Assault, but this is definitely Assault HP moving at Scout Speeds.

I'll heed your counsel on shotgun loadouts the moment you kill me with a shotgun loadout :-)

PS: You missed the point. Assaults other than Minmatar can cross into Scout mobility territory.

Does it work both ways? Can a Scout cross into Assault HP territory and maintain 9 m/s sprint?

Please dial down the crazy. All I'm doing is challenging your claim, Aeon:



^ I believe this claim to be false. If the MN Assault were magically removed from play, do you think all would be well and balanced?

I recommend some smooth jazz. All you are doing is picking fights with people with differing opinions. Honestly, all you have said is "don't nerf my Gal Assault", without taking any of the careful consideration and community work going into this.

6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up.
You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina.

If you think the 6% extra speed is:
A. Small
B. The only thing giving Min advantages

You're just plain wrong.



I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb.

5.30 m/s - MN Assault base movement
5.00 m/s - GA Assault base movement
Difference: 6%

9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats
9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats
Difference: 6%

(because maths)

If you bring cloaks into an argument about why scouts are viable, your opinion is automatically null and voided.

The cloak in its original iteration was something to be feared, but right now its more of a pain than an aid, especially against competent opponents.

To Aeon: Rattati posted dropsuit KDR showing assaults to have considerably better KDR than other suits. The market data shows that assault suit sales vastly outstrip other dropsuits. This all includes Gallente assaults. Just because Gal assaults have a slightly worse bonus compared to Amarr and Minmatar assaults, does not mean they should be exempt from assault balancing.

Regarding balancing Min assaults specifically, I recommend either a) reducing stamina / stamina regen to make them more similar to other assaults. Or b) reducing hp to make them more like scouts, inline with the Minmatar tradition of having suits that blend with the lighter tier above them on the hp / speed curve.

No, it's a bad idea to buff something and nerf it's counter. Assaults aren't a specific counter to logis so there isn't a problem.

Personally, I wish we could get a speed increase for Logistics to help them better keep up with the suits they're supporting without nerfing Assaults in the process.

I liked Aeon's post about speed issues with suits left over from Old CCP, and I hope this in some way addresses those, but I'm not sold on the idea of slowing down an entire class without approaching it in a more gradual manner.

In any case, hopefully if this results in unintended consequences it can be addressed quickly.

I totally get what you are saying (although we've moved away from what you were originally saying about Gallente Assaults, that I was responding to). Which is why I asked Rattati not to implement the changes originally proposed as I thought they were too extreme.

It doesn't look like you have much to worry about anyway, as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same, just nerf movement (kind of meaningless) and buff stamina. So barely a nerf at all.

In principle though, all assault suits appear to be a little overpowered when compared with all other classes, not just logis and commandos. So buffing logis and commandos at the same time is irrelevant, as assaults will still be op when compared to sentinels and scouts.

Why am I not surprised.

But I concede it's not a worthless stat, though I suspect the proposed reduction will have only moderate in game effect. Too slow and it's a problem, but this proposal is only a minor nerf.

And may I just say, on the subject of incremental changes. I said a number of times, prior to the major assault buff, that adding a module slot at the same time as 100 base hp, was too much of a buff in one go. Seems I was right.

It might be possible that you miss the point of the curve. By reducing the scout speed to logi status, it then gains logi ehp potential. Also any introduction of new suits (not happening), would easily be placed on this spectrum based on knowing just one of the numbers on this stat. Also we can theoretically with a ehp speed scale reduce assault ehp potential and increase their base speed if you value speed more so than health, in which case its not the curve but the value in speed which is the source of conflict here.


In short, I'm just trying to see what is really the core of your concerns, I can't tell if not understanding the concerns of the other side, or its that you just value base walk speed more than ehp, or you think 2 things changing at once is terrible, or that assaults shouldn't have to follow the tic for tac exchange which all the other suits are being modified by because game mechanics don't work with a simple curve. I don't have to defend the position because its not mine, but I'd say its rather hard to give a good discussion when the list kind of goes all over the place rather than focusing on one concern at a time.

edit:

I have a feeling its the last underline/bold is the base of your concern, which is a good topic as there are many variables in the game besides speed and ehp. But then we should be discussing that, and not the other stuff.

I have decided not to read your posts in this thread anymore, and soon you will be banned, probably, for ranting, insinuating and tinfoiling.

Even though I hate to do it, I will explain this once more. Players are always drawn to the best combination of HP and speed, this has been demonstrated often enough in DUST 514. Therefore, I am attempting to eliminate that "draw" by having a semi-fixed ratio of hp/speed so players can actually just choose what they want to play for the right reasons. Another insinuation of "Rattati just likes straight lines, there is no reason" and there will be consequences. Even on top of that, Assaults are the top meta right now for that reason. If I reduce Assault down to the curve and drag logis and commandos up to it, there is less risk of a nerf/buff chain reaction.

Interesting comparison with a Gallente Commando. I don't think things are as bad for assaults as you think though. The Commando will need to fit mostly regen to get reasonable armour regen. And whilst they have higher shields, the regen is worse, and they have a larger hitbox, and they have poorer stamina and stamina regen, and they have poorer EWAR stats. Mainly though I feel you are really undervaluing sprint speed.

That said, reducing movement speed to near commando speeds is kind of slow, I'll give you that. Haven't checked the numbers, but I'll trust you. So I will further revise my assessment. Movements speed, other than sprint, will suffer a substantial nerf. I still don't think this will likely constitute a major nerf to the assault role overall, considering the fact that sprint speeds will be maintained.

I still don't particularly like the idea of messing with sprint speed modifiers though.

IGÇÖm really sorry but this doesnGÇÖt make any sense. GÇ£If we nerf the assaultGÇÖs favourite suitGÇ¥, which currently happens to be the assault suit, GÇ£we might lose some of themGÇ¥. IsnGÇÖt that quite clear indication that youGÇÖre doing it wrong? When assaults were using logis or scouts or heavies did we not ask GÇ£why are they not using the assault suitGÇ¥? And wasnGÇÖt the answer always GÇ£because they are bad in comparisonGÇ¥?

When assaults were finally buffed we saw the great migration towards the assault suits. And this migration was perfect. What greater balance can there be than people using role specific suits to execute said roles? There are always tweaks that should be made but that doesnGÇÖt mean that an entire class should suffer.

The vast majority of players are assaults and will continue to be assaults regardless of the changes done to suits. There are a lot of assaults because that is the prevailing role in any FPS and using the assault suit for this role should be encouraged. You will never see a situation where we have an equal amount of each role; it is not going to happen. People need to understand that trying to limit the number of assaults is futile. People will use a suit that gives them the best possible outcome in any given match even if that suit was not intended as frontline fighter suit. And you cannot blame people for doing so.

I donGÇÖt feel that giving assault better sprint while logis have better strafe is going to cut it. Strafing is a large part of engagements and I have used my Amarr logi enough to know what a pain it is to strafe with those movement speeds. If my ability to be effective in combat with an assault suit is diminished I will move on to a different suit that does offer me combat effectiveness. The proposed changes are simply too drastic. And I must stress that I am not against a logi and commando buff but this doesnGÇÖt have to come at the expense of the assaults. By all means increase their speed, give commandos more slots but please, do not butcher the assaults like this.

And that right there is how you truly get slayer logi's. Please just stop talking Aeon, I dont think you've said something smart or on point in a while.

Stick kincats and cardiac regs on you assault, just like now. You'd have to live with lower strafe speed.

What would be awesome, would be if Kincats also increase your movement speed, rather than just sprint speed.

You will have to replace that ferroscale plate on the logi for a cardiac regulator for a fair comparison.

With the proposed changes you could fit a complex plate on the logi instead of a reactive and have similar movement speeds.

The assault will still have more hp and stamina, and a sidearm.

The logi will have lots of nice equipment.

The assault will have much better sprint speed.

I still think you'd be better off slaying in the assault.

You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done.

It's outside the scope of this proposal but the assault should also have meaningful racial bonuses to assaulting (i.e. to it's dps levels).

Depends on what you mean by "like Commandos" specifically but yes, the Commando also has a role largely/currently defined by slayer ability. This is actually a long standing issue derived from earlier design choices because the precepts of those two roles overlap so heavily.

That unfortunate "legacy quandary" aside, as a general method I'd say yes, assaults should have something like commandos in the sense of racial bonuses that give them better than standard dps output with their racial weapons.

Lack of consistent conceptual vision has been an issue for Dust starting in the early days and is a continued bane no question.
It is the manifold problems caused by that very thing that makes me so adamantly in support of all CCP Rattati's initiatives to apply consistent methods game wide, such as his work in the OP.

Right now things are bad in a number of ways and far too much time is spent on the forums with players bickering amongst ourselves about "who is it going to be bad for, who's turn is it to have a viable role" I'm more than tired of that back and forth and the lack of balance it is predicated upon. As such I fully support Rattati in all efforts to apply solid consistent foundations, even when such applications have undesirable short term effects, because without a long term game wide method to provide context progress is unlikely and balance will remain fleeting and nebulous.

In short, frustrated or not, having a cohesive game design that allows for fundamental balance to finally replace the back and forth we've dealt with for years trumps any particular current effects those changes have on you, me, or any specific sub-facet of the game.

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How can anyone say this with the massive hit detection issues currently in game ?!

Easy or hard it is an objective reality and we either live with that or live with continued imbalance until the servers burn out.
I have yet to see any evidence which indicates there is a viable long term third option.

That is literally not able to be an alternative to what I was talking about.
Specific changes nerf or buff, to any given aspect can be part of a base method, or can happen absent a base method but in no case are they an alternative to a choice between having a base method or not.

Added Worksheet: Spero's Concept

> Google Doc <

In essence, an inversion of Ripley Riley's vision (Assaults sprinting from cover to cover or from spawn to frontline). Rather, Assaults maintain current movement speeds and a decreased sprint multiplier. Logis maintain current movement speeds and an increased sprint multiplier.

Friendly Reminder: Figures prepared for spitballing purposes only.

Honestly, I only read a small percentage of what people write if they're throwing a fit. Usually the first line of each paragraph. If you recommended this, I missed it. What I mostly saw was "nerf MN Assault. Don't touch my Gal Assault".

So it's our fault that you throw fits and get yourself ignored. Got it.

But now that your head is clear ... may I ask?

In your response to Cross, you say "take the cautious approach" ... please elaborate. What do you have in mind?

As I've said every time it comes up the only "skin in the game" I have is that the ratio itself be maintained as a game wide foundation (or if a case is solidly built against it that the ratio be abandoned as a game wide thing when it comes to balancing roles, mods, races et al).

I have no stake whatsoever in what those ratios are or which role falls where within them so long as the ratios are applied universally and equally. Without a universal and equal application of foundational vision (be it this method or another) that applies to all roles rather than cherry picks a few things, balance becomes either a bad zero sum game or a crapshoot and we stay in the same rut we've been in for years.

-continued-

I think there is meret to giving assauots more sprint speed so that they can apply pressure more readily, but strafe speed is the main reason assaults have such a lead in kills/spawn over other suits. It is hard to strafe as a commando/sentinel because you simply aren't as fast. Super straify, 650eHP cal scouts also do this strategy, and high hp + speed means hard to kill suits. And whether or not hit detection is an issue, you do have people from all around the world with different quality internet connections playing together, and some people benefit from their lack of relative connection quality. Especially people who change position rapidly.

Let us not forget that assaults suits have the highest kills/spawn, and their ubiquity on the battlefield is likely indicative of their performance. They have speed, and hp, so they can tank well, and twitch back and forth. There is a reason that this proposal was created in the first place. I urge any developers read this to not focus too much on feedback from players that want theor suits to be powerful, and try looking at the data.

You've asked for a "compromise" which I am not sure how that applies in the contexts of my posts but by all means I'm happy to hear you out. Please list specifically what you want to keep and let's talk about if it has any conflicts with a fair and universally applied method. If it does not then there is no need for compromise as far as I'm concerned because I already don't oppose it in the least. What I do oppose is any role, no matter which, getting special treatment and advantage in something as basic as ability to be alive and act within the game. A role lacking that fundamental ability is not viable and a game with in-viable roles is not balanced, that sort of imbalance is what I do oppose.

Probably because your wants/needs as stated are "we want the status quo"

and it's an ass status quo.

I asked you to specifically list what you want in detail in that very post.
And clearly this is CCP Rattati's thread.

Both of the above being established facts I have no idea why you would not already be providing said detailed list of items.

And please, when you do list these desired aspects put them in a list format yes?
Paragraphs are great for the conversation we've been having thus far, but when it comes to recounting actual lists of items better to format them in lists then in blocks of text.

You've asked for a "compromise" which I am not sure how that applies in the contexts of my posts but by all means I'm happy to hear you out. Please list specifically what you want to keep and let's talk about if it has any conflicts with a fair and universally applied method.If it does not then there is no need for compromise as far as I'm concerned because I already don't oppose it in the least. What I do oppose is any role, no matter which, getting special treatment and advantage in something as basic as ability to be alive and act within the game. A role lacking that fundamental ability is not viable and a game with in-viable roles is not balanced, that sort of imbalance is what I do oppose.

EDIT: Since it is CCP Rattati's thread here is an extra point of specific focus


Please take specific care to list if and or how your wants conflict with Rattati's quote above and if they do elaborate on why and how your listed wants should take precedence and in what way that provides better game wide balance/heath than does the scenario proposed by the quoted text. I still find a game wide focus to be the most relevant, but since you wish to focus more tightly the interaction between the medium frames as described by Rattati seems the proper point to do it.

Aeon, so, to be clear, you have no problem with the eHP vs Speed curve, you just have the problem with the Assaults getting lower speed (and would be willing the take an eHP nerf to fit into the curve), due to the similarity between Assaults and Commandos, and concerns about the logi's relative power is that correct?

This is related but takes a bit of a different spin on the whole Logi/Assault speed issue; give them the same base speed. Give Assaults better stamina but less sprint speed and Logis better sprint speed but lower stamina. An Assault needs to be able to run for extended periods of time, move around, and engage targets. Logis need to be able to sprint across openings (I.e. short distances) to get to a teammate who is downed/injured/ammoless to assist them. If base speed is standardized and we simply adjusted the sprint/stamina, it would fit in with the requirements of each role.

With everything else going like Rattati suggested on the thread, would this be a valid compromise for people? The assaults with be able to run a bit farther but for short distances they will not be as fast as the logis and slower than the scouts.

So long as the ratio is applied - equally and to all roles - then the specific numbers of how it is applied are secondary. My advocacy is, and has always been, employing a game wide balance method. No more, no less.

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~ Cross

If his only advocacy is that a certain set of specifics be employed, and it has been understood that my stance does not exist for or against any set of specifics, only that all specifics be applied fairly to every role via one methodology.