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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 17:59:00 -
[451] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:-I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at.
How can anyone say this with the massive hit detection issues currently in game ?!
Know what cannot be known.
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Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
2
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:03:00 -
[452] - Quote
CeeJ Mantis wrote:Mini-rant here:
Nobody seems to like commandos, but givw the assault the commando's bonuses and weapon selection, and people seem all ln board.
2. This assault pity about how the class with the highest kills/spawn is going to be hit so hard by this small adjustment because their assault wont be the second fastest, and have more hp than a commando, hits similarly hard as a commando, and gets a bonus to weapon performance (cal is a notable exception), and has more slots than most suits in the game so you can make it do whatever you want is so hard. Seriously, the suit is not so bad if yoi are all using it, and performing well with it.
3. all this talk of compact nanohives on their new "slayer-logi" proposal fits, and nobody wants to fit a nanite injector?
In reverse order. The nanite injector is more pg/cpu, the slayer fit focuses on maximizing survivability and self sufficiency. They aren't the second fastest suit in the game when wearing enough eHp to outdo the commando eHp, and likewise don't top commando eHp when they are wearing little enough eHp to be the second fastest suit in the game. It's called versatility, and is (or was) what the suit was all about which is the reason for the slot layout as well. And as for your first point... I don't know whether to laugh or give you a deadeyed stare. Assault players want to be effective at their role, slaying. we don't want to steal the commandos abilities, we want to be effective at the role we picked up the suits for to begin with. If I wanted to be a medic, I'd be a logi. If I wanted to play point defense, I'd be a heavy. If I wanted to be a shock trooper I'd be a commando. If I wanted to be the stealthy hacker/assassin, I'd be a scout. I play assault because I enjoy running and gunning, and half of that playstyle is ******* RUNNING.
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:03:00 -
[453] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:
In short, frustrated or not, having a cohesive game design that allows for fundamental balance to finally replace the back and forth we've dealt with for years trumps any particular current effects those changes have on you, me, or any specific sub-facet of the game.
0.02 ISK
Easy to say. Harder to live with.
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:-I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. How can anyone say this with the massive hit detection issues currently in game ?!
Again. Mobility is king in CQC. All the EHP in the world won't matter if they can hit you but you can't hit them.
Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:06:00 -
[454] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Assault vs slayer logi You will have to replace that ferroscale plate on the logi for a cardiac regulator for a fair comparison. With the proposed changes you could fit a complex plate on the logi instead of a reactive and have similar movement speeds. The assault will still have more hp and stamina, and a sidearm. The logi will have lots of nice equipment. The assault will have much better sprint speed. I still think you'd be better off slaying in the assault. It's outside the scope of this proposal but the assault should also have meaningful racial bonuses to assaulting (i.e. to it's dps levels). The assault role is defined by it's slayer ability, that hinges on weapon slots, the logistics role hinges on it's support ability which is dependent on equipment slots. Both require utility slots to stay alive and functional. The frequent misconception is that there's an issue when the logi can survive in combat/get from place to place, as if that base utility hampers the assault role. It is not the logi being viable that is an issue, it is the assault having lack luster role definition/supporting mechanics. Give effective racial skills that provide the assault with lethality and they'll perform their role quite nicely, rather than relying on other roles/suits to be gimped just so they can function (as is currently the case).
I am of the mind that logis need a buff, but assaults should not get a nerf. Now if Rattati says something like "We're nerfing assaults now, but we'll be buffing them further on through role bonuses, etc." I'd feel better. But Assaults were useless for ages (anyone remember when we had shield recharge on the Gallente Assault?) and in fact Rattati himself specifically gave them the extra health because he wanted slayers to migrate to the assault suit. Now that they have, they are getting a speed nerf?
Buff the logi, leave assaults alone (ideal) or a smaller nerf like 0.2-0.3 m/s. Nerfing one thing while buffing the other led to 1.7 tanks, and I don't want to see that happen again. ESPECIALLY since Rattati said he wants this to be the last balance pass for a long while.
Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:14:00 -
[455] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Cat Merc wrote:A simulation of that in DUST would be like giving Gallente same or better sprint speed than Minmatar, but nerfing the stamina so it can only be used in short bursts. Logged on the Big Board
Yeah I agree with cat merc. The gallente filosophy is close range get rekt brawlers in eve online. No ship has higher dps than gallente with short burts of incredible speed to close the distance. Minny in eve atr kiters. They tend to keep their distance and control the battle via speed....
Gallente need a much faster speed than minmitar but about 1/3 their stamina so even with a proto cardiac they will not reach minmatar stamina levels and would need 2.
More or less with minny you need them to have less speed than gallente but more stamina meaning they can cover more distance than any race at a faster pace. Minnys are the 400 meter runners, gallente are 100meter sprinters and caldari are the 1,400 meter runners and amarr are the marathon runners (I HATE HOW SLOW MY ROKH, RAVEN AND GOLEM ARE[I LoVE MY GOLEM]). I think this gives you an idea of how to go with it.
For easy digestion:
- Gallente = 100 meter sprint. Stamina constraint dont permit it to go further. Huge burts of speed but not maintainable
- Minmitar = 400 meter dash. Gets everywhere faster than any race due to sprint speed being second highest but stamina recharge being the highest of all.
- Caldari = 1,400 meter jog-ish. Stamina permits it to stay at pace with minmitar but ultimately is surpased by minmatar due to stamina recharge and max speed. May feel like its covering more distance but the stamina recharge of minmatar makes it dash more times than the caldari can run
- Amarr = Marathon runners. Goes from point to point without stopping but not particularly quickly Must be out paced by minny and caldari but not gallente which are sprinters. Has the most stamina.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
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Booby Tuesdays
Bad Mother Thukkers
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:15:00 -
[456] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:
Also, what does a straight swap of current movement speeds between Logis and Assaults, plus using the 1.55 mod for Assaults, and 1.4 for Logis?
Added. Interesting... The sweet spot may be 1.35 for Logis, and 1.5 for Assaults, keeping the movement speed swap. Tweaked the sheet: Google Doc
Tweak Min Assault to 4.95 base and I think you have a bingo. 
Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:19:00 -
[457] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:
Also, what does a straight swap of current movement speeds between Logis and Assaults, plus using the 1.55 mod for Assaults, and 1.4 for Logis?
Added. Interesting... The sweet spot may be 1.35 for Logis, and 1.5 for Assaults, keeping the movement speed swap. Tweaked the sheet: Google Doc Tweak Min Assault to 4.95 base and I think you have a bingo.
Looks pretty good. Don't like that the MN Assault is faster than the AM Scout, but it is an improvement upon the present.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
921
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:19:00 -
[458] - Quote
Pretty much all suit's primary role is killing, logis are the main exception. It's how they do it that differentiates them.
I always felt that commandos slay by being slow, tough and powerful.
Assaults slay by being fast.
Scouts slay by being fast and stealthy, but weak defensively.
So perhaps it would be best to get assaults into line with the speed / hp tradeoff, by reducing assault hp rather than speed, like Aeon suggests.
Maybe even (shock/horror) a compromise between hp and speed nerfs?
The trouble is, too little hp encourages brick tanking, as it makes hp mods proportionally more effective. Too little speed also encourages brick tanking, as it makes speed mods and regen less effective. The current state of assaults is great for varied module use. Should this be a problem, non-hp mods could be buffed.
In response to concerns about nerfing assaults. It's not just that they are more common. That is ok and probably to be expected. It's that they are not only more common, but more effective too. I don't think theres much in it though. I'd hate to see them overnerfed. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:22:00 -
[459] - Quote
Sleepy Shadow wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:[Why do you need to nerf the assaults?
A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies. You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done. I donGÇÖt care about your speed curve, I care about the roles in this game and their interaction with each other. Gimping the assault just so it fits on your pretty graph is not a good enough reason to nerf it.
Your question has been answered a dozen times in this thread alone. I'll try to answer it again ... differently.
No two factors influence survivability by greater degree than Speed and HP. I think we can all agree on this point. A system which enforces a tradeoff between these two factors will be more balanced than a system which does not.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:22:00 -
[460] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:-I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at.
And I liked my ADS ROF bonus as something that actually made a difference. Point being that we don't all get what we want, so I guess I'll tell you what most people get told: suck it up.
Also, not everyone wants strafe speed to stay as is, there are white a lot that hate this stupid wiggling.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:28:00 -
[461] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:-I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. And I liked my ADS ROF bonus as something that actually made a difference. Point being that we don't all get what we want, so I guess I'll tell you what most people get told: suck it up. Also, not everyone wants strafe speed to stay as is, there are white a lot that hate this stupid wiggling.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
CANNOT.
LIKE.
THIS.
POST.
ENOUGH.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
921
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:29:00 -
[462] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:Tweak Min Assault to 4.95 base and I think you have a bingo. Google Doc Tweaked! Looks pretty good. Personally, don't like that the MN Assault is a faster sprinter than the AM Scout, but your model looks good.
Looks good.
To doubters, Gallente assault movement speed would still be significantly quicker than a commando. Sprint speed would be the same as now, and plenty faster than a logi. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:34:00 -
[463] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:Tweak Min Assault to 4.95 base and I think you have a bingo. Google Doc Tweaked! Looks pretty good. Personally, don't like that the MN Assault is a faster sprinter than the AM Scout, but your model looks good. Looks good. To doubters, Gallente assault movement speed would still be significantly quicker than a commando. Sprint speed would be the same as now, and plenty faster than a logi.
Changed name of model to "Booby's Model". Sprint speed would actually be slightly faster for all Assaults:
MN - 7.80 (up from 7.79)
GA - 7.40 (up from 7.35)
CA - 7.40 (up from 7.35)
AM - 7.09 (up from 7.06)
@ Booby
This is your model, but I think we should reduce MN Logi base movement from 5.30. 5.30 is the current MN Assault's base movement. Rattati's original model (Page 1) has it at 5.25 (tied with AM Scout). My two cents.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
2
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:50:00 -
[464] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:[Why do you need to nerf the assaults?
A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies. You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done. I donGÇÖt care about your speed curve, I care about the roles in this game and their interaction with each other. Gimping the assault just so it fits on your pretty graph is not a good enough reason to nerf it. Your question has been answered a dozen times; I'll try to answer it again ... differently. No two factors influence survivability by greater degree than Speed and HP. I think we can all agree on this point. A system which enforces a tradeoff between these two factors will be more balanced than a system which does not.
Except for hitbox. And dps, which granted is an offensive survivability state, but a survivability stat all the same. eHp isn't the only thing that makes an assault effective. It's mainly speed and dps with a moderate emphasis on eHp. What made scouts effective before? Speed, hitbox and scans. What made logis effective in the killerbee days? Speed, eHp and repping hives. What's the common denominator? Speed. Why? Because taking no damage is better than having more damage to take.
When assaults can no longer strafe effectively not only scouts but heavies will gain a distinct advantage over them as well as logis... Rattati wants this to be the last rebalance on suits for a while so I fear things will be left as is. Assaults will be a thing of the past, no matter how much people claim it won't be so. As soon as they are incapable of avoiding fire from scouts, logis, commandos and heavies they will change to other suits and that is not the goal.
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
I GÖú Puppies
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:54:00 -
[465] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
In short, frustrated or not, having a cohesive game design that allows for fundamental balance to finally replace the back and forth we've dealt with for years trumps any particular current effects those changes have on you, me, or any specific sub-facet of the game.
0.02 ISK
Easy to say. Harder to live with. Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:-I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. How can anyone say this with the massive hit detection issues currently in game ?! Again. Mobility is king in CQC. All the EHP in the world won't matter if they can hit you but you can't hit them.
Easy or hard it's is an objective reality and we either live with that or live with continued imbalance until the servers burn out.
I have yet to see any evidence which indicates there is a viable long term third option.
CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:55:00 -
[466] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:
...
SlayerLogis aren't coming back like you think, never were.
Question about that set of figures that does finally appear on page 17, are those cpu/pg values proposed the final values? Pre-skills values? And 10% fitting on eq, that is also in addition to existing logi bonuses, correct? Are eq load costs going to be modified at all? Are those eq bonuses going to be flat or racially varied? I've kept up on the logistics/support thread and recognize much of this stemming from there so definitley see the progress but the last 20 pages is resteering us into overall wash territory at risk of nerfs.
Give CalLogi the sidearm.
Buff the speeds, and most of the rest of the base stats.
Don't swap for other existing, end of the day logis are still combat gimped relative to ALL other combat frames by virtue of (even after buffs) still significantly lower hp, no weapon bonuses and fitting limits.
If theres an issue with Assault bonuses and their utility handle that like it is- a separate issue .
End point is EVERY other frame has received a healthy round of buffing to keep pace with the last year and a half of meta-shifts except Logis. We got armor regen returned, sort of, but otherwise we're still living the penalties of an unrepeatable era. We need some small buffing tweaks and thats it. Small. But we need buffing.
Open-Beta Vet.
Egbinger Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:58:00 -
[467] - Quote
Strongly believe 90% of the babble about "SlayerLogis" would have been avoided if the cpu/pg and eq fitting info was in the OP. People all worked up about nothing.
Open-Beta Vet.
Egbinger Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:01:00 -
[468] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:-I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. How can anyone say this with the massive hit detection issues currently in game ?! Again. Mobility is king in CQC. All the EHP in the world won't matter if they can hit you but you can't hit them.
That is EXACTLY my point.
Know what cannot be known.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:03:00 -
[469] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:[Why do you need to nerf the assaults?
A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies. You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done. I donGÇÖt care about your speed curve, I care about the roles in this game and their interaction with each other. Gimping the assault just so it fits on your pretty graph is not a good enough reason to nerf it. Your question has been answered a dozen times; I'll try to answer it again ... differently. No two factors influence survivability by greater degree than Speed and HP. I think we can all agree on this point. A system which enforces a tradeoff between these two factors will be more balanced than a system which does not. Except for hitbox.
If hitbox size were a bigger survivability factor than speed or HP, then Scout and Light Frame kill/spawn efficiency would be at the top of the pile rather than the bottom. Right?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
2
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:05:00 -
[470] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
In short, frustrated or not, having a cohesive game design that allows for fundamental balance to finally replace the back and forth we've dealt with for years trumps any particular current effects those changes have on you, me, or any specific sub-facet of the game.
0.02 ISK
Easy to say. Harder to live with. Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:-I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. How can anyone say this with the massive hit detection issues currently in game ?! Again. Mobility is king in CQC. All the EHP in the world won't matter if they can hit you but you can't hit them. Easy or hard it's is an objective reality and we either live with that or live with continued imbalance until the servers burn out. I have yet to see any evidence which indicates there is a viable long term third option.
The third option is obvious. Buff the other stuff and take the balance changes slow. Make your buffs, gather data and move on from there. It's hardly a massive operation to tweak a couple numbers later after gathering data.
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
I GÖú Puppies
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
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Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
2
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:09:00 -
[471] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:Adipem Notthi wrote:
A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies.
You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done. I donGÇÖt care about your speed curve, I care about the roles in this game and their interaction with each other. Gimping the assault just so it fits on your pretty graph is not a good enough reason to nerf it. Your question has been answered a dozen times; I'll try to answer it again ... differently. No two factors influence survivability by greater degree than Speed and HP. I think we can all agree on this point. A system which enforces a tradeoff between these two factors will be more balanced than a system which does not. Except for hitbox. If hitbox size were a bigger survivability factor than speed or HP, then Scout and Light Frame kill/spawn efficiency would be at the top of the pile rather than the bottom. Right?
Except for when they were, right? Oh, right, because even main survivability sources rely on underlying stats as well.... Where's my head at? And the heavies don't have an issue with getting headshot constantly with that huge head hitbox, do they? So glad you chimed in.
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
I GÖú Puppies
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:12:00 -
[472] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:Buff the other stuff ....
If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite.
In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:17:00 -
[473] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
If hitbox size were a bigger survivability factor than speed or HP, then Scout and Light Frame kill/spawn efficiency would be at the top of the pile rather than the bottom. Right?
Except for when they were, right?
Yes, before the High Speed / High HP Min Assault was FoTM High Speed / High HP Scouts were FoTM. Assault Lite shouldn't be allowed to happen again, and a system which appropriately enforces a tradeoff between Speed and HP will prevent it from happening again.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:19:00 -
[474] - Quote
The ******* balance work is done .
Final buffset time and lets move to other issues already! ****!
Open-Beta Vet.
Egbinger Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
2
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:19:00 -
[475] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Buff the other stuff .... If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite. In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve.
But eHp isn't on the table, it's speed. I wouldn't mind assaults having LOGI health if their speed remained. I'll say it again: Not taking damage trumps having more damage to take.
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
I GÖú Puppies
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:25:00 -
[476] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Buff the other stuff .... If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite. In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve. But eHp isn't on the table, it's speed. I wouldn't mind assaults having LOGI health if their speed remained. I'll say it again: Not taking damage trumps having more damage to take.
How well would Assaults will substantially less HP hold up against HMG Heavies?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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hails8n
DEATH BY DESTRUCTION
244
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:29:00 -
[477] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
If hitbox size were a bigger survivability factor than speed or HP, then Scout and Light Frame kill/spawn efficiency would be at the top of the pile rather than the bottom. Right?
Except for when they were, right? Correct. Before the High Speed / High HP Min Assaults were FoTM, High Speed / High HP Scouts were FoTM. There's a pattern here. Assault Lite shouldn't be allowed to happen again, and a system which appropriately enforces a tradeoff between Speed and HP would prevent it from happening again. No one -- especially Scouts -- wants to see a return of Scout 514.
Yeah, but thats what dust is about. Heavy snipers, fast assaults, fast heavies, tanked scouts.
Petition to ban the trainyard map.
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Songs of Seraphim
Negative-Feedback.
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:33:00 -
[478] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:
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SlayerLogis aren't coming back like you think, never were.
Question about that set of figures that does finally appear on page 17, are those cpu/pg values proposed the final values? Pre-skills values? And 10% fitting on eq, that is also in addition to existing logi bonuses, correct? Are eq load costs going to be modified at all? Are those eq bonuses going to be flat or racially varied? I've kept up on the logistics/support thread and recognize much of this stemming from there so definitley see the progress but the last 20 pages is resteering us into overall wash territory at risk of nerfs.
Give CalLogi the sidearm. Buff the speeds, and most of the rest of the base stats. Don't swap for other existing, end of the day logis are still combat gimped relative to ALL other combat frames by virtue of (even after buffs) still significantly lower hp, no weapon bonuses and fitting limits. If theres an issue with Assault bonuses and their utility handle that like it is- a separate issue . End point is EVERY other frame has received a healthy round of buffing to keep pace with the last year and a half of meta-shifts except Logis. We got armor regen returned, sort of, but otherwise we're still living the penalties of an unrepeatable era. We need some small buffing tweaks and thats it. Small. But we need buffing.
Except actual Caldari Logistics would PREFER a FOURTH EQUIPMENT slot rather than the 4th low slot or sidearm.
I have my Caldari Assault for the damn sidearm. -.-
Again, I'm all for the buffing of Commando and Logistic roles, but not at the expense of the Assault role.
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:36:00 -
[479] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:
The third option is obvious. Buff the other stuff and take the balance changes slow. Make your buffs, gather data and move on from there. It's hardly a massive operation to tweak a couple numbers later after gathering data.
That is literally not able to be an alternative to what I was talking about.
Specific changes nerf or buff, to any given aspect can be part of a base method, or can happen absent a base method but in no case are they an alternative to a choice between having a base method or not.
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Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:39:00 -
[480] - Quote
Looking at a lot of the discussion and what Rattati has posted so far I do think it's good to correlate Base HP to movement.
I would say though that it is critically important to take into account HP, walk speed, sprint speed, stamina, and stamina regeneration in a complete picture and make sure that the way those stats are set the logistics suits and assault suits are best able to fulfill their roles.
If walk speed correlates to strafe speed and that's the most important combat movement in people's mind then the assault should probably have the best walk speed. After that take HP to Movement curve and adjust the other stats (sprint speed modifier, stamina, stamina regeneration) so it falls in line.
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