This I can get behind. Though you'd have to be careful so that it doesn't "bleed over", as Adipem puts it, into the scout role.

This is what I mean.

Assaults are as Kage put it "Mobile Frontline Fighters that rush objectives". This is their fundamental role. Ensuring that their are always players on the frontlines pushing for the objective. Speed nerfs directly and rather significantly hinder this role. Only one suit at this time to my knowledge is "bleeding over" into the Scout Class the others seem relatively balanced in terms of their movement speeds without modifying them via modules.

Logistics I can understand want to have some bonuses but in being one I realise I don't need to be faster than an Assault to do my job well, if anything I want to roughly be the same speed as them as there is no point in out running the team I am supposed to be supporting, if I am with multiple forms of equipment then I am directly bleeding into the Scout Class.

Were my Assault's Speed nerfed and the Logi buffed significantly I would just tank my Amarr Logi better and use that as an Assault suit for its speed and being able to carry equipment. If the speed values were standardised or the Logi buffed to Assault Speeds the suits would still in their current forms retain enough unique traits to merit the use of the Assault.

If we swap out the CalLogi's extra Low Slot for +1 EQ, the above loadout weighs in at 875 HP. That's ~20% less HP than the similarly fit Assault, and the Logi will be ~9% faster (assuming speeds on Page 1). As a point of reference, scout base mobility is presently ~8% removed from that of Assault at a base HP spread in excess of 200%.

To me, this tanky CalLogi's HP (even at -1 Low) still seems too close to a similarly fit CalAssault.
Logis aren't my field though. What am I missing?

I may be misreading, but Rattati also mentions here normalizing fitting capacity to help the CalLogi.

Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now.

Honestly I'm not sure applying a simple % Delta change is the most accurate way to approach this ...

When all roles have the proper foundation, we can move forward with finetuning

1) I intend for Logis and Assault and Basics to share the same PG/CPU and possibly total number of slots. The way to balance it is to require logis to fit equipment, and give each role the specific fitting bonuses for the role.
1a) We did this for Sentinels and Assaults, and it worked very well by aligning them and normalizing based on Scouts, that were the best in class. Just by aligning slots and capacity/slot, with a dash of hp, they became viable. Now, after some time has passed, we can take the next step. Logis and Commandos are undeniably the least viable specialty roles, and Assault are very strong. If it means they need to take a kincat instead of a plate, then so be it. I have already taken into account

2) Now when they all have a normalized and sound progression, we can finally move to where I want to be. I want to stop messing around, and patching dropsuits. They need to be stable and a fixed point. I then want to balance with PG/CPU costs and power of Gear, and role bonuses. Is the Caldari Assault bad? Maybe, but then we figure out the tunable parameters we have instead of always messing around with the foundation. Shield regen, cost of regulators, fiting bonus to Rail tech, etc.

In short, talking about role bonuses now, is like putting a bandage on a broken leg.

Going to echo Kalante's concerns about the Assaults.

The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory. Amarr Assaults -maybe- a problem because they have a really good slayer bonus toward a very powerful weapon system (scramblers/assault scramblers).

This nerf is universal though and while it's great that it helps Logis, it's nerfing Assaults for the sake of 'progression' and 'making sense' with no real cause. I'd imagine someone (probably a CPM) sat behind the curtain and nudged this change along with the good intentions of making Logis and Commandos more viable but at the same time did one of the following:

a) Instituted a level of anti-assault bias in what can only be considered an unnecessary Assault nerf.
b) Figured that the hit to Assaults would be temporary and that we'd be okay with taking that hit until changes were made to re-balance us (even though we're still waiting for decent bonuses)
c) Simply overlooked it.

None of those are a good justification for why we shouldn't iron this out -now- and honestly, if your problem is the Minmatar Assault, hit the Minmatar Assault. Leave the Assaults at their current speed, buff the Logis, and then we get around to having more viable bonuses for Assaults -THEN- we can nerf them. At the moment it's wholly unnecessary and the only real reason to reduce their speed is to satiate a level of OCD in the EHP/Speed curve.

EDIT: Mandatory equipment fitting on Logi's is also a bad move because then you're just going to have people clamoring for Type-II Logi's that are more oriented for combat. They're doing that -already- so adding ammo to the argument isn't helping much. I'm all down for decreasing PG/CPU and decreasing fitting costs for equipment though.

Bad tinfoil is bad, it's hard to overlook it Aeon

Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now.

'because Minmatar too stronk'

Indeed but they do not 'need' to be outrunning the primary frontline soldiers they are supporting. They 'can' however afford to be faster.

EDIT: Mandatory equipment fitting on Logi's is also a bad move because then you're just going to have people clamoring for Type-II Logi's that are more oriented for combat. They're doing that -already- so adding ammo to the argument isn't helping much. I'm all down for decreasing PG/CPU and decreasing fitting costs for equipment though.

Perhaps instead of a speed to HP curve, its speed to mobility curve, where mobility is defined as a function of speed and stamina? You could then vary speed for logistics to maintain the proper mobility by throttling stamina as your independent variable?

The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which ... mobility crossing into Scout territory.

Feeding of Pokeys idea of HP to mobility, we could have assaults and logos have the same walk speed, while logos gain more sprint speed and more stamina.

So both can walk and fire at the same speed, but since the logo has less health than the assault, it gets more sprint speed in order to get out of dodge, and more stamina to be able to consistently outrun a chasing assault.

http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/1192/11893

^ Roughly 850HP at almost 9 m/s sprint. It isn't as overt a case as the MN Assault, but this is definitely Assault HP moving at Scout Speeds.

That fit is all over the place lmfao, did you make that just so you could say it was possible for a Gallente Assault to border Scout turf? That fit is just awful.

First of all, having Shield Extenders on a Gallente Assault is just dumb no matter what. Sure, you get 340 Shield HP but it's going to take you 24 - 28.5 seconds to fully recover that amount, of which it's going to be stopped -every time you take a bullet and every time you twist your ankle wrong on a 2m fall.

Precision Enhancer is about damn pointless when it's only good for finding anything besides Heavies at your limited 15m range. Plus, you have an Active Scanner, so the precision enhancer should be replaced.

Armor repair rate is abyssmal and with the hybridized Ferroscale/Vanilla plate combo you're unnecessarily taking mobility loss when you could have just used Reactives. With that low of repair rate and the split-tank you'll likely spend more time recovering than actually fighting and the window for said recovery is so extensive that anyone who came along would put you in the dirt. Too much risk in that.

And the Kin-Cats don't offer any benefit at all apart from your shotgun because sprinting has little to no application in combat outside of getting within Nova Knife/Shotgun range. Of which, there are much better suits/roles.

EVEN IF you want to dispute what I've said here - it's not a competitive fit, because if it were, you'd see it being used more often.

I'll heed your counsel on shotgun loadouts the moment you kill me with a shotgun loadout :-)

PS: You missed the point. Assaults other than Minmatar can cross into Scout mobility territory.

I'll start taking your advice on shotgun loadouts the moment you kill me with a shotgun loadout :-)

PS: You missed the point. Assaults other than Minmatar can cross into Scout mobility territory.

Anyone can cross into Scout mobility turf if that's all you focus on. Doesn't mean it's going to be competitive or in any way viable.

Does it work both ways? Can a Scout cross into Assault HP territory and maintain 9 m/s sprint?

Yeah I remember the old "sins" and how all logi frames were punished for the sins of the Cal racial logi skill.
The Cal skill was a bad idea, the following logi nerfs were a bad idea, and the melissophobia then and now remains a bad idea.

Scrambler Rifle over performing? Don't nerf the Amarr Assault or Commando to fix it, because that doesn't.
Double repped, double hardened armor HAV fits over performing? Don't nerf the base cassias of all HAVs to address an over powered synergy.
Myofibs granting more jump than intended, don't nerf the Cal and Min frames slots to block stacked Myos, just address the Myos themselves.
TAR killing LAVs at range? Nerfing the native armor regen and base HP of the Gal Assault isn't the proper fix.

Cal Logi racial bonus brokenly OP? Should not have resulted in nerfing logistics frames, or even the Cal frame, the bonus should have been fixed.

Same with the present day "Assaults have no reason to be run as slayer fits unless they're the best of class in both speed and HP within the medium line" then that right there is a problem. Just like it would be a problem if there was no reason to run a scout unless they had assault HP, or no reason to run a heavy unless they had assault movement speeds.
There should be a reason why the assault is the assault that does not require it to have better movement and better HP. The trend of them being inverse is already present in many aspects of the game as we can all see from how the balance between light, medium, and heavy frames works, so if they are truly lacking without having this imbalanced stacking of both then other aspects of the class - like their racial bonuses - really need to be looked into.

0.02 ISK

The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory.

This I like. A commando that can actually get around the battlefield without an LAV. And that potential Gallente burst is absolutely lovely. I'd like to see the Caldari get some kinda special little bonus themselves though...perhaps a shield tank/regen buff? Jump buff? Weapon buff? Discussion for another time.

That being said, as I have asked for a Logi buff before, my worries are the same as those that have already been voiced: Slayer Logi's/Killer Bees. But I'm not terribly afraid since things now between the two medium frames are much different than before.

1) Logi's have less tank and slightly less potential for tank as Assaults.*
2) Logi's lack weapons' bonus (to their racial guns) and lack a sidearm (minus Amarr). Some argue that they're lackluster, but that doesn't mean they don't play a part in gunfights.
3) Their EWAR is slightly better at finding people, but not for hiding. Adding more Dampeners means they lose tank.

*The only thing that is irksome is that Logi's will have a noticeable CPU/PG difference between them and Assaults, affecting the tank.

But only time will tell. Until then, I'll be eagerly waiting to rush opponents with my crazy-fast, shotgun toting Galmando

Please dial down the crazy. All I'm doing is challenging your claim, Aeon:



^ I believe this claim to be false. If the MN Assault were magically removed from play, do you think all would be well and balanced?

Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now.