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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 31 post(s) |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12
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Posted - 2015.05.27 17:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't have math, but I do have logic. You're ignoring a huge factor when just balancing speed vs HP in regards to.
If the assaults' HP is countered by the lack of speed, and vice versa for the logistics', then the these factors are balanced against each other (no net advantage or disadvantage), and thus assaults and logistics are equal when comparing net speed/HP advantages and disadvantages.
If that is the case, then the logistics comes out on top because with speed and HP being balanced with the assaults, that leaves logistics with a very large advantage with no counterbalance: the 3-4 equipment slots while assaults only have 1.
If the speed and HP advantages and disadvantages of assaults and logistics cancel out against each other when the 2 suit types are compared with one another, and the logistics gets a ton more equipment slots, what does the assault have to balance against that? just a sidearm? It doesn't seem fair. Sure assaults get fitting bonuses to weapons to allow for fitting better weapons, but logis get fitting bonuses to equipment, and the savings from the equipment fitting bonus can be used to equip better weapons also.
In life of this, I don't think assaults should get a speed nerf. Also, assaults are meant to be the frontline fighters that rush to objectives and clear areas. Reducing speed conflicts with their intended purpose, as it makes it harder for them to rush objectives.
In short, I suggest keeping assault speeds intact.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12
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Posted - 2015.05.27 18:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I don't have math, but I do have logic. You're ignoring a huge factor when just balancing speed vs HP in regards to assaults and logistics.
If the assaults' HP is countered by the lack of speed, and vice versa for the logistics, then the these factors are balanced against each other (no net advantage or disadvantage), and thus assaults and logistics are equal when comparing net speed/HP advantages and disadvantages.
If that is the case, then the logistics comes out on top because with speed and HP being balanced with the assaults, that leaves logistics with a very large advantage with no counterbalance: the 3-4 equipment slots while assaults only have 1.
If the speed and HP advantages and disadvantages of assaults and logistics cancel out against each other when the 2 suit types are compared with one another, and the logistics gets a ton more equipment slots, what does the assault have to balance against that? just a sidearm? It doesn't seem fair. Sure assaults get fitting bonuses to weapons to allow for fitting better weapons, but logis get fitting bonuses to equipment, and the savings from the equipment fitting bonus can be used to equip better weapons also.
In light of this, I don't think assaults should get a speed nerf. Also, assaults are meant to be the frontline fighters that rush to objectives and clear areas. Reducing speed conflicts with their intended purpose, as it makes it harder for them to rush objectives.
In short, I suggest keeping assault speeds intact. Are you forgetting that Logis have next to zero base HP? Nowhere has it been said that Logis are getting a HP buff. Their low HP is the balance to their new found speed. Just like Scouts. Min Assaults will still be able to sprint close to 9m/s with a couple KinCats, and still have much better tank than their Logi counterparts. You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff.
My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count.
Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them.
There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12
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Posted - 2015.05.27 19:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff.
My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count.
Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them.
There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing.
While I understand the point you're making, I feel like many people are undervaluing the Assault Bonuses themselves. An Amarr Logistics will not be able to make use of Laser Weapons nearly as well as an Amarr Assault. So if we go under the assumption you made that the speed/hp ratio effectively cancels each other out, would that not place the suits at similar survivability, with the Assault being better at killing due to their Assault bonus, and then the Logistics better at supporting with more equipment and bonuses to support it? Part of this may stem back to the time old issue of Assaults vs Commandos, and partially to the fact that many weapons perform very well, even without Assault Bonuses. I wonder if we did something like put a +1% Racial Damage/lvl bonus on the Assault (5% total) and then reduce damage of light weapons by 5%? Or something to more clearly solidify an Assault's advantage in terms of killing over other suits. I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12
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Posted - 2015.05.27 19:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff.
My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count.
Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them.
There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing.
Yet when Logis were slower AND have much lower HP, that was balanced? I'm no slayer, but If I can manage close to a 2.0 kdr in the lowest kdr suit in the game, then the Assaults will be fine. You can throw biotics on both suits, yes, but the Logi is nerfing itself more than the Assault for doing so. That said, I think the amount of speed nerf on the Assaults is too much. The fastest Assault should line up with the middle two Logis. I think the reason Rattati put their speed lower than that is because of the Basic frames. Assaults should be at least as fast as Basic frames. By doing that, then the slowest Assault will be as fast as the fastest Commando. No Assault should be slower than a Commando, Amarr scum or not. "Yet when Logis were slower AND have much lower HP, that was balanced?" I don't see the relevance, as I was not making that case.
I don't know if it's clear or not, but I feel like I should say that i'm totally fine with a logistics speed buff, I just don't see why assaults need such a drastic speed nerf, if a nerf at all.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12
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Posted - 2015.05.27 19:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis.
And we totally get that. If you will check the 100+ pages between the Logi threads Cross started, you would know that the intention is not to make Logis more appealing than Assaults to slayers. That is why Cross and Pokey and many others are saying, nerf Logi CPU/PG, increase Equipment fitting cost, and give Logis a better fitting bonus to equipment. This will leave TryHard slayer logi fits gimp in comparison to a good Assault fit. Also reworking the 2 crappy Assault bonuses will go a long ways.
I meant to say "Its NOT really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis"
I didn't edit the post fast enough.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12
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Posted - 2015.05.27 19:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis.
See that's where it gets really tricky because you're then dealing with a qualitative analysis of relative worth between Assault Bonuses (and you're right only 2 are really worth it) and having more equipment. I personally feel that people seem to put more worth in the equipment than they should, mostly due to leftover fear from when Logistics were stupidly broken, but again that's just a personal assessment. I think what Rattati is really going for here is "How can we make all suits feel roughly equally survivable?" and I feel that's a good direction to go with it. And as you have stated, the tradeoff of speed vs defense makes the suits 'equal' which I also think is a good thing. At which point my main question is "How can we make the Assault Bonuses feel like they're a fair tradeoff from the Logistics equipment?" Sadly I fear the answer is probably "Well if only the Commandos and Assaults were combined into one suit....." but that gets really tricky because it would basically mean the removal of Commandos from the game, which would likely be a nightmare on many fronts. Plus I have some pretty strong personal bias in that I love my Commando Q_Q So I guess for me I would say to all of the Assault players out there: "Assuming this speed/hp ratio goes through, what sort of changes to Assaults would you want to see in order to make the tradeoff between Assault and Logistics worth it, and solidify the Assault as the better slayer suit?"
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the qualitative value. I do think the assaults' bonuses are canceled out by the logitics' bonuses, so I don't count it as a point for the worth of assaults vs logistics and their equipment.
Anyway, I'm still not convinced the assaults need a speed nerf. I would be alright if it was something small, but the proposal is far too drastic, and undermines the assault's role of being a mobile frontline fighter that rushes objectives. Furthermore, I think the logis would be in a good place with the speed buff without having to nerf assaults.
I meant to say "Its NOT really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis," but I didn't edit the post fast enough. Seems like you know what I meant, but felt I should clarify.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12
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Posted - 2015.05.27 19:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the qualitative value. I do think the assaults' bonuses are canceled out by the logitics' bonuses, so I don't count it as a point for the worth of assaults vs logistics and their equipment.
Anyway, I'm still not convinced the assaults need a speed nerf. I would be alright if it was something small, but the proposal is far too drastic, and undermines the assault's role of being a mobile frontline fighter that rushes objectives. Furthermore, I think the logis would be in a good place with the speed buff without having to nerf assaults.
I meant to say "Its NOT really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis," but I didn't edit the post fast enough. Seems like you know what I meant, but felt I should clarify.
Sorry if I was unclear. I meant that if this proposal goes through, that the overall survivability of the suits would be the same. My question for you is, what would need to happen (assuming the speed chamges) to the Assault bonus so that you would feel assault and logistics are of equal worth (including bonuses and equipment) overall? Honestly don't know, and I don't think the bonuses should be a really massive thing for any suit, and I think it would be easier just to not nerf the assault speed.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12
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Posted - 2015.05.28 06:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
I was hoping logis would keep the proposed speeds, or at least be as fast as assaults. I guess these revisions are acceptable though.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12
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Posted - 2015.05.31 16:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'd like to say that I am fine with the proposed plan of nerfing assault base speed while keeping the sprint and strafe speeds he safe (as Rattati stated he wanted to do). I might hate it when its out, but I'm willing to at least give it a try.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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