DUST Search - Sticky:[Feedback] eHP and Speed

All Channels

Feedback/Requests

Sticky:[Feedback] eHP and Speed

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 31 post(s)
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 744	Posted - 2015.05.27 13:37:00 - [1] - Quote Well. This is interesting. Some thoughts: Slow speed will make the shotgun assault fits pretty much useless, this may or may not be a good thing depending on how you feel about shotgun assaults. Concern about killer bees activated. Heres what Im going to do if this change goes live: Delete my shotgun min assault fit. Create Min Logi fit: Add shotgun Add the exact same module layout (x4 adv extenders, x1 regulator, x1 damp, x2 kincat) Add core locus grenade Add remote explosive Add nanohive Add uplinks Add injector I lose my bolt pistol sidearm but now have better scanning, 4 times the equipment, and slightly less hp, I'd say its a wash. Also Im concerned that the amar logi will now be a much more attractive option for slaying than the Cal/Gal assaults. The Cal/Gal assaults have pretty **** poor weapon bonuses as is, so its not much of a sacrifice to drop those and get +2 equipment slots in return, and all you have to do to make up for most of the HP loss is lowball one or two equipment slots, in return you get (for example) a nanohive PLUS a crappy nanite injector and good uplinks + the amar logi uplink bonus. I am happy to see talk of an extra module slot for commandos though (please consider giving Cal Commando better base shield regen and all commandos a bit better native armor repair as well). Edit to add: amar assault may be too slow to be effective after scrambler rebalancing, but who knows
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 745	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:21:00 - [2] - Quote Sleepy Shadow wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Also Im concerned that the amar logi will now be a much more attractive option for slaying than the Cal/Gal assaults. The Cal/Gal assaults have pretty ** poor weapon bonuses as is, so its not much of a sacrifice to drop those and get +2 equipment slots in return, and all you have to do to make up for most of the HP loss is lowball one or two equipment slots, in return you get (for example) a nanohive PLUS a crappy nanite injector and good uplinks + the amar logi uplink bonus. Because I donGÇÖt brick tank my suits I donGÇÖt really lose anything by changing to the Amarr logi from my Gallente assault. I checked from protofits and I can have a neat Amarr logi with 230 shield, 510 armour (my Gal usually goes with 194/509), PRO AR/ADV SMG/Basic flux, PRO needle, PRO hive and remotes. By changing equipment I can have a better sidearm, grenade or HP if I wish, but to be honest, I have no need. The logi also has better scan range and hacking speed not to mention the additional WP IGÇÖll be having by reviving and booby trapping places. I feel so sorry for the Caldari assault though. Slow as feck but if you want speed you lose the ability to fit regulators and other useful modules. My Caldari assault runs two regulators and usually stamina or possibly a ferro in the lows. After this change, kincat is almost mandatory to be able to use it. Caldari is a distance fighter, real nice that an Amarr logi can close the distance before you turn : / I have no idea how Rattati thinks nerfing assault speed this drastically wonGÇÖt make people change to other suits. Yeah pretty much this. Amarr Logi overlaps too much with Cal/Gal assault after these changes go into effect. Caldari assault is already crap as things are today, after this its just going to be a joke. All the assaults will be too slow to be fun. This entire hp vs. speed curve seems like a red herring as far as balance is concerned. It doesnt seem to take in to account the relative usefulness of each suit beyond raw speed and HP, thats why Ive said before and I say now that I dont think balancing on this speed v. hp curve is a useful or good idea. Now you will have Logis competing with scouts in terms of speed and competing with some of the assaults in term of slaying while still providing the same vast force multiplier as before this change due to the equipment they bring to the table. Meanwhile commandos are still ** and still occupy the second lowest speed tier, and assaults are being basically pigeonholed into high HP grinding front liners because speed builds will be worthless and regen builds will be unable to control terms of engagement vs. anything but a sentinel, so they too will be worthless. I appreciate the effort but I think this one might be a mistake, but we'll see how it pans out.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 745	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:34:00 - [3] - Quote P.S. I dont see why we just dont add some damned stacking penalties to HP modules HP values. Why are they the special snowflake? Sure they have penalties but those penalties clearly arent enough of a deterrent.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 745	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:56:00 - [4] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't have math, but I do have logic. You're ignoring a huge factor when just balancing speed vs HP in regards to. If the assaults' HP is countered by the lack of speed, and vice versa for the logistics', then the these factors are balanced against each other (no net advantage or disadvantage), and thus assaults and logistics are equal when comparing net speed/HP advantages and disadvantages. If that is the case, then the logistics comes out on top because with speed and HP being balanced with the assaults, that leaves logistics with a very large advantage with no counterbalance: the 3-4 equipment slots while assaults only have 1. If the speed and HP advantages and disadvantages of assaults and logistics cancel out against each other when the 2 suit types are compared with one another, and the logistics gets a ton more equipment slots, what does the assault have to balance against that? just a sidearm? It doesn't seem fair. Sure assaults get fitting bonuses to weapons to allow for fitting better weapons, but logis get fitting bonuses to equipment, and the savings from the equipment fitting bonus can be used to equip better weapons also. In life of this, I don't think assaults should get a speed nerf. Also, assaults are meant to be the frontline fighters that rush to objectives and clear areas. Reducing speed conflicts with their intended purpose, as it makes it harder for them to rush objectives. In short, I suggest keeping assault speeds intact. This. Seriously, who's complaining about Logis? They farm WP and are the only suit that can function in a role that doesn't require killing. Just because you can change something doesn't always mean you should. Agreed, I dont understand why people are trying to get logis buffed, they are there as a team support role and they are absolutely great at it as is.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 749	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:06:00 - [5] - Quote hails8n wrote: The cal commando needs the 1 sec shield recharge delay the sentinel has, or an extra low to fit 2 shield regulators. The shield recharge on that suit is so slow. Im not sure these will make enough of a difference to make cal comm viable, but certainly they need a combination of lower recharge delay and another low slot (the magnitude of the delay buff is up for debate)
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 751	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:50:00 - [6] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: You also have a higher per fit ISK cost While I understand that ISK is a limiting factor for some people, it isnt for me, I couldnt care less. Cross Atu wrote: I did a thread awhile back about the Cal/Gal bonuses. Unfortunately at the time no resolution was reached due to a number of factors but I do still think the situation with the assault racial skills needs to be address even before the advent of these new polish elements in the OP. Yeah they are pretty lackluster, particularly the Caldari bonus. If these changes do go through we might need the assault bonuses buffed significantly (except the amarr bonus, which is already insanely good... depending on how far the scrambler nerf goes). Cross Atu wrote: Commando native armor regen was already added during the earlier pass, I'd be inclined to see where things stand after they get their slots and movement shifts before altering their baseline further but keeping an eye on them I absolutely agree with. Though the next step may be a look a their racial skills because rather like the assaults they need some polish regardless. 0.02 ISK Kind of agree, I think aside from the extra slot only the cal commando definately needs a buff (to its shield recharge delays, even with 2 low slots its not going to be able to get reasonable regen, and if its required to use those for regulators to get reasonable regen, why bother even putting them there, just leave them out and roll the regulator effects into the base suit).
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 756	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:31:00 - [7] - Quote Commander Noctus wrote: This I like. A commando that can actually get around the battlefield without an LAV. And that potential Gallente burst is absolutely lovely. I'd like to see the Caldari get some kinda special little bonus themselves though...perhaps a shield tank/regen buff? Jump buff? Weapon buff? Discussion for another time. That being said, as I have asked for a Logi buff before, my worries are the same as those that have already been voiced: Slayer Logi's/Killer Bees. But I'm not terribly afraid since things now between the two medium frames are much different than before. 1) Logi's have less tank and slightly less potential for tank as Assaults.* 2) Logi's lack weapons' bonus (to their racial guns) and lack a sidearm (minus Amarr). Some argue that they're lackluster, but that doesn't mean they don't play a part in gunfights. 3) Their EWAR is slightly better at finding people, but not for hiding. Adding more Dampeners means they lose tank. *The only thing that is irksome is that Logi's will have a noticeable CPU/PG difference between them and Assaults, affecting the tank. But only time will tell. Until then, I'll be eagerly waiting to rush opponents with my crazy-fast, shotgun toting Galmando I can get ~277 shield and 477 armor for a total 754 hp (no I didnt check my math, its close enough!) on an advanced Amarr Logi, and thats with using good equipment with only lvl 3 amarr logi skill (lvl 5 would give me more pg/cpu to work with via equipment fittng cost bonus). It would be very easy with the speed buff to make a suit that outperformed the Gallente and Caldari assaults in every way except for a very marginal hp difference on the gallente assault. Even without the speed changes I already consider my advanced amarr logi fit better than equivalent level Gal/Cal fits (except for hp stacked Gal fit), after the buff its going to be 100% preferable. On the other side of the scale the min logi is going to be a terror in pubs with a shotgun/remotes/nanohives/injector/uplinks suit with a kincat or two. They cant get near the assault's raw health (I think it was ~100-150 lower, I forget exactly) with the same fit, but it goes significantly faster and is much more versatile due to the equipment. Im much less worried about the Cal Logi, since it just sucks butt, and the Gal Logi is probably not much of a problem either, but this logi buff is going to obsolete alot of roles that should be performed by assaults in favor of filling them with a logi.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 756	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:37:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now. Just remember that the ability to get out of danger can be easily retasked to be an ability to murder people quickly.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 757	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:53:00 - [9] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. 6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up. You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina. If you think the 6% extra speed is: A. Small B. The only thing giving Min advantages You're just plain wrong. I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb. Probably for the best. All that will be read out of that is 'don't nerf the Gal Assault'. I love how easy it is for people who don't run the damn thing to say it's doing good and be taken seriously. Gal Assault is ok, but its outclassed by the Amarr Assault and the Min Assault (in different ways). Then again the real ***** of the litter is Caldari Assault. Pity them. Pity them right in the butt.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 757	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:55:00 - [10] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: In either case, your argument has -absolutely nothing to do- with Assault speed GA Assaults are 6% slower than MN Assaults. They're only slightly slower than your "problem child" unit. Remove the problem child MN Assault, and I believe that GA Assault will take its place. 6% speed, infinitely better stamina (larger pool AND extremely fast regen), hidden 5% hacking modifier, they all add up. You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. And one can use that speed better than the other because stamina. If you think the 6% extra speed is: A. Small B. The only thing giving Min advantages You're just plain wrong. I'm not going to enter this argument beyond this, but this is just dumb. 9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats 9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats Difference: 5.99% (because maths) A % increase doesn't change the relative % increase regardless of the base you're starting with...LOLMATH. And someone said earlier that they dont need to know math. Hah! Plebians.

Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 761	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:07:00 - [11] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: And here's how much I over-estimate cloaking devices. Aeon Amadi used cloak! its super effective! Cat Merc uses strafe! Its super effective! Critical Hit. Aeon Amadi has fainted.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 761	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:09:00 - [12] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: What we think we're all doing What we're actually doing I like to think Im holding my own head in the knowledge as well, probably the best way to view open discussion imo (as long as no one is trolling)
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 761	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:17:00 - [13] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Cat Merc wrote: You also forget that the 6% difference grows when both put a kin cat on due to math. 5.30 m/s - MN Assault base movement 5.00 m/s - GA Assault base movement Difference: 6% 9.73 m/s - MN Assault + 2 KinCats 9.18 m/s - GA Assault + 2 KinCats Difference: 6% (because maths) Yes, I was wrong there, I'm not the best thinker 10 minutes after waking up. Doesn't change how that's still 6% extra speed, which I don't know how much scouts value it but for an Assault that's quite the big advantage, and you can use that speed almost constantly due to stamina regen being off the charts. The thrust of your original claim was correct, that the extra speed translates into even more extra speed after kincats are in place. You just made the claim in regards to relative % speed instead of relative absolute speed.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 777	Posted - 2015.06.05 15:31:00 - [14] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Ghost Steps wrote: If strafing is dealt with then whats gonna happen to scouts, thats their most used way survive. besides what? jumping and cloaking and using damps or generally being faster than everything else? Not sure you understand: Its pretty much impossible (if you are using a rifle) to kill anything over 500 hp quick enough to prevent it from turning around and shooting back. Without strafing this means that scouts will lose frequently and automatically to anyone with ~400+ ehp depending on how good the scouts aim is and how fast the target's reaction is. Removing strafing is a nerf to any scout that isnt shotgunning/plasma cannoning, and scouts will need to be buffed to compensate.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 778	Posted - 2015.06.05 19:29:00 - [15] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: The marksman scout will certainly lose much viability as a slayer. However if that viability came from exploiting hit detection issues, then it simply was never meant to be. The best I can suggest is: Fight at your optimal range, and outside your target's. Focus on wounded targets. Open fire on targets already engaged with others, from the flank. The cloak, despite all of it's shortcomings, allows us to do one thing really well: Observe. Picking your battles is really important. If despite all of that, scout success slumps, Rattati will notice it and will work to improve it. This is a blessing, because fear of having too much slayer capability is what holds the scout back. We may yet see better cloaks, improved ewar or other bastardry that will be more fun. Scout success is slumping already due to the cloaking nerfs, its already well under what an assault or sentinel can get to, which is fine. But removing strafing will nerf them even more. They are supposed to be weak in direct combat, not helpless. P.S. observing with the cloak in direct line of sight is not a good idea, its generally better to use passive scans to observe if possible, since anyone decent is much more likely to take a fat dump on your head if you are just standing there looking at stuff, the longer you sit there the more likely it becomes. DeathwindRising wrote: and I understand that they are absolutely not suited for direct combat. Stop complaining that scouts can't slay. Scouts have a role, it's your choice if you want to play outside of it Again right now they arent suited for direct combat, they are in a good place right now. Nerfing them more is going to make them too weak. Im not complaining that scouts cant slay, but every suit outside of perhaps the logi needs to be able to meet a baseline slaying ability or they are quite literally useless. Removing strafing will cripple scouts without buffing them in some other way, whether that is by buffing their slaying or buffing their scanning or whatever is irrelevant to me.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 782	Posted - 2015.06.05 22:16:00 - [16] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: You missed my point entirely. Vesta Opalus wrote: Scout success is slumping already due to the cloaking nerfs, its already well under what an assault or sentinel can get to, which is fine. Agreed. Quote: But removing strafing will nerf them even more. They are supposed to be weak in direct combat, not helpless. [...] The scout may or may not slump with strafe nerf. IF it does, though, you can be sure that Rattati will notice and take care of it. I will gladly take quality-of-life buffs later on, in exchange for combat viability in the form of cheating hit-detection now. Open your mind to the possibilities of what we could do with scouts if we don't have to worry about assaults migrating to them to slay. I agree, Im just saying pre-emtively making their other roles stronger/more viable or giving them something to give them better remote hole poking ability would be a good and necessary change if strafing is removed.