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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 01:41:00 -
[211] - Quote
Kalante Schiffer wrote:So assaults get nerfed without giving gall and cal assaults a decent bonus? PC meta heavy spam with even more logis behind their @sses and scout spam. While assaults get pushed behind the curtain. Assault suits more like basic suits. There is nothing enticing about assaults suits.
None of their bonuses are something that helps them you know... assault! I am sorry but the reload and dispersion bonuses are not cutting the cheese for cal and gall assaults. Now they get nerfed. The assault class has no identity it doesn't know what they are.
No good bonuses, some of the weapons for each race do not even excel nor work properly with their own suits. Like, example the Rail rifle currently is being wielded by gall assaults such as myself because i know it is a much better option than to use an assault rifle. I have zero business to use a duvolle on my gall assault because it is just not worth it other than for fun. When it comes to PC in a competitive setting that is where everything changes. Play styles change, suits change, weapon's personality changes.
Why? why would i not use the gall's racial weapon in a competitive setting? because... it sucks. Simple as that. To use an AR on a gallente and shoot what it feels like a bb gun against a wall of tanked out proto heavies with infinite reps.The weapon even in CQC even though it is a CQC weapon it gets owned by the RR and CR. The racial bonus for it is just not good enough to help. Whilst my rail rifle in my gall assault it can get the job done against armor at close, medium, and long range so why should i bother to use a duvolle?
i could go on and on about the caldari and ammar but that is just my thoughts of how the assault class as right now they have no identity, we do not even got their racial bonuses right much less what their role in the battle field is. To me they are currently just there to fill the game with content and that's about it.
Because CCP never finished the puzzle. The whole picture includes weapons, the suits they're supposed to be used on, racial doctrines, and the synergy between them. So far CCP has treated weapons, and suits as separate things and no regard to racial doctrine or synergy.
But has anyone asked Rattati why certain suits use certain weapons even when they're not racially aligned? Like minmatar logis and assaults running gallente shotguns, and plasma cannons? Why aren't those weapons effective on their own racial suits?
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Booby Tuesdays
Bad Mother Thukkers
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 01:46:00 -
[212] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:True Adamance wrote:
It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault
No two factors affect survivability more than HP and Speed. Where both are low, we find underpowered units. Where both are high, we find overpowered units. Where one is low, and the other is high we find balanced units (all else held constant). It stands to reason that a tradeoff should exist between these two survivability factors. Out-of-the-box, a Logi has 200HP less than its Assault counterpart. This alone is sufficient reason, in my opinion, for them to be faster than Assaults.
People like to forget that to achieve Min Assault level HP on a Min Logi, I have to sacrifice every one of my slots to tank. Where as a Min Assault can have one extender, one energizer, damage mod, plate, kincat, and shield reg or dampener. I have equipment, but I'm slow and only have 30 more HP than a suit made for killing me, after sacrificing all my slots just to be able to take a punch.
Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
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Booby Tuesdays
Bad Mother Thukkers
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 01:52:00 -
[213] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
Having a look at the curve lets say I make an Amarr Assault with all ferros and no biotics modifier. What run speed at am I looking at. At the same time if I do the same with the Min Assault, with no penalties or buff modules what speed am I looking at?
According to a graph that we have to guess as to what the hard numbers are...
Min Assault new values - 6.9 sprint
Am Assault new values - 6.25 sprint
Factor in Biotics lvl 5...
Min Assault new values - 7.24 sprint
Am Assault new values - 6.56 sprint
Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 01:52:00 -
[214] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:True Adamance wrote:
It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault
No two factors affect survivability more than HP and Speed. Where both are low, we find underpowered units. Where both are high, we find overpowered units. Where one is low, and the other is high we find balanced units (all else held constant). It stands to reason that a tradeoff should exist between these two survivability factors. Out-of-the-box, a Logi has 200HP less than its Assault counterpart. This alone is sufficient reason, in my opinion, for them to be faster than Assaults.
Yet in eve, logis have more eHP and are far slower. Balanced yes?
Then why were the "killer bees" a problem? The had more hp than assaults and were slower, which exactly what they're going back to.
The difference between a logi in eve and a logi in dust is that logis in eve don't have anywhere near the offensive capabilities of assaults. Their dps is non existent.
In dust though lol, they have exactly the same dps as assaults.
An assault with an AR and a logi with an AR deal the same exact damage.
That's why we had problems with scouts being better assaults too months ago.
CCP doesn't want to give weapon damage bonuses to separate offensive roles from defensive or support roles. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 01:55:00 -
[215] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:
Then why were the "killer bees" a problem? The had more hp than assaults and were slower, which exactly what they're going back to.
Will a Logi built to slay truly have more HP than an Assault built to slay?
If so, how? Their base HP are separated by a 200HP spread.
Not to mention, fitting restrictions and recovery rates.
It'd be nice if we could get Cyrus to wire up protofits for test builds! 
Edit: The last thing I want to see is a return of Slayer Scouts or Slayer Logis. If this is even a remote possibility, I'd fully support implementing harsher plate penalties for one or both classes. I believe this can be done, as it's been done before with Scouts and armor-plate strafe penalty.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:00:00 -
[216] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:True Adamance wrote:
It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault
No two factors affect survivability more than HP and Speed. Where both are low, we find underpowered units. Where both are high, we find overpowered units. Where one is low, and the other is high we find balanced units (all else held constant). It stands to reason that a tradeoff should exist between these two survivability factors. Out-of-the-box, a Logi has 200HP less than its Assault counterpart. This alone is sufficient reason, in my opinion, for them to be faster than Assaults. People like to forget that to achieve Min Assault level HP on a Min Logi, I have to sacrifice every one of my slots to tank. Where as a Min Assault can have one extender, one energizer, damage mod, plate, kincat, and shield reg or dampener. I have equipment, but I'm slow and only have 30 more HP than a suit made for killing me, after sacrificing all my slots just to be able to take a punch.
Am I understanding correctly that if you fit your MN Logi to behave like a MN Assault, you end 30 more HP than a MN Assault without any modules equipped?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:08:00 -
[217] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Then by your statement, caldari as a race in dust is broken. They can not GTFO. They have neither the hp to tank effectively against armor or the speed/stamina/agility to outrun the amarr or minmatar, and soon perhaps the gallente.
If the caldari are to be at the mercy of tougher, more damaging, longer lasting, faster opponents, it seems they will spend the majority of their time defending themselves from attack rather than attacking. I would assume then, that caldari would have superior defensive capabilities. Yet most players would say this isn't the case.
If you are speaking of a heads up fire fight you must also include dps output and force projection. I mentioned neither of these within the context of my prior post because they are by role meant to be lessor from logi than assault so it was implicit that the logi would lose on those metrics, it was further the context of my post to generally compare values within races rather than between races by and large.
But if we wanted to play out the situation, having a cal assault vs a min assault both using ARs (so no racial skills applied), neither running damage mods (so no distortion of the damage profile applies), and both having the same HP values including mods, then yes presuming the min still held a higher level of mobility after consideration of it's fitted mods, but did so while meeting the HP value of the Cal, I would say the Cal is under-performing in that context.
However the situation you outline is not the one we find in the game, nor is it a direct application to the prior post I made because it introduces the added effects of things like ranged application of dps, and thus draws in the effects of things like optimal and falloff damage applications. Much like the ability of the scout to survive by moving quickly, use of a RR (let alone SR) allows survival via distance from the point of conflict while still doing damage to the hostile forces.
Support actions by contrast (aside from arguably scanning) cannot be done in that manner. You cannot rep someone from RR range, you cannot deploy foothold uplinks for dynamic map mobility from a shooters perch, you cannot apply ammo nanites to a squad mate at sniper range.
Where as the faction fit ck.0 wielding a RR certainly can kill an ak.0 or gk.0 outside of their racial weapons optimal range, which is not a very defense oriented action all things considered 
None of which is to say that armor vs shield balance, rifle balance, or racial balance are perfect, but they certainly do have conceptual trends to advise them clearly and those trends certainly do not conflict with the base method of an inverse relationship between raw HP and speed.
CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:09:00 -
[218] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Kalante Schiffer wrote:None of their bonuses are something that helps them you know... assault! I am sorry but the reload and dispersion bonuses are not cutting the cheese for cal and gall assaults. Now they get nerfed. The assault class has no identity it doesn't know what they are.
No good bonuses, some of the weapons for each race do not even excel nor work properly with their own suits. Like, example the Rail rifle currently is being wielded by gall assaults such as myself because i know it is a much better option than to use an assault rifle. I have zero business to use a duvolle on my gall assault because it is just not worth it other than for fun. When it comes to PC in a competitive setting that is where everything changes. Play styles change, suits change, weapon's personality changes.
Why? why would i not use the gall's racial weapon in a competitive setting? because... it sucks. Simple as that. To use an AR on a gallente and shoot what it feels like a bb gun against a wall of tanked out proto heavies with infinite reps.The weapon even in CQC even though it is a CQC weapon it gets owned by the RR and CR. The racial bonus for it is just not good enough to help. Whilst my rail rifle in my gall assault it can get the job done against armor at close, medium, and long range so why should i bother to use a duvolle?
i could go on and on about the caldari and ammar but that is just my thoughts of how the assault class as right now they have no identity, we do not even got their racial bonuses right much less what their role in the battle field is. To me they are currently just there to fill the game with content and that's about it. A rather vivid description of why the racial assault skills need to be revisited. Wouldn't hurt to have a clear vision on how light weapons, especially the rifle types, are supposed to work 'naked' compared with how they should work when optimized by synergy with their proper racial assault. +1 well said Yea but I'll point out that the situation was again an instance of expecting an anti shield weapon to perform competively against armor suits using anti armor weapons. Too much armor and not enough shield targets
Not at all opposed to the balance between armor and shields being looked at. Actually I tend to favor a review of it.
But that is outside the scope of this thread as it has no pertinence to the OP.
CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Booby Tuesdays
Bad Mother Thukkers
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:12:00 -
[219] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:True Adamance wrote:
It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault
No two factors affect survivability more than HP and Speed. Where both are low, we find underpowered units. Where both are high, we find overpowered units. Where one is low, and the other is high we find balanced units (all else held constant). It stands to reason that a tradeoff should exist between these two survivability factors. Out-of-the-box, a Logi has 200HP less than its Assault counterpart. This alone is sufficient reason, in my opinion, for them to be faster than Assaults. People like to forget that to achieve Min Assault level HP on a Min Logi, I have to sacrifice every one of my slots to tank. Where as a Min Assault can have one extender, one energizer, damage mod, plate, kincat, and shield reg or dampener. I have equipment, but I'm slow and only have 30 more HP than a suit made for killing me, after sacrificing all my slots just to be able to take a punch. Am I understanding correctly that if you fit your MN Logi to behave like a MN Assault, you end 30 more HP than a MN Assault without any modules equipped?
All modules fitted, all equipment fitted. Min Logi ends up with 21 more HP. Min Assault using 6 different modules, Min Logi using 2 (all shield and armor). The HP gap would be 0 if I didn't use a basic armor plate, and used another ferro or reactive plate.
Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
19
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:14:00 -
[220] - Quote
What's up on the curve with the Basic Medium and the Assault differences in speed? Aren't they functionally the same suit?
"Crush all who complain!"
- Arkena Wyrnspire
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:15:00 -
[221] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:True Adamance wrote:
It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault
No two factors affect survivability more than HP and Speed. Where both are low, we find underpowered units. Where both are high, we find overpowered units. Where one is low, and the other is high we find balanced units (all else held constant). It stands to reason that a tradeoff should exist between these two survivability factors. Out-of-the-box, a Logi has 200HP less than its Assault counterpart. This alone is sufficient reason, in my opinion, for them to be faster than Assaults. People like to forget that to achieve Min Assault level HP on a Min Logi, I have to sacrifice every one of my slots to tank. Where as a Min Assault can have one extender, one energizer, damage mod, plate, kincat, and shield reg or dampener. I have equipment, but I'm slow and only have 30 more HP than a suit made for killing me, after sacrificing all my slots just to be able to take a punch. Am I understanding correctly that if you fit your MN Logi to behave like a MN Assault, you end 30 more HP than a MN Assault without any modules equipped? All modules fitted, all equipment fitted. Min Logi ends up with 21 more HP. Min Assault using 6 different modules, Min Logi using 2 (all shield and armor). The HP gap would be 0 if I didn't use a basic armor plate, and used another ferro or reactive plate.
By different, you mean not-HP related?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:16:00 -
[222] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:
Then why were the "killer bees" a problem? The had more hp than assaults and were slower, which exactly what they're going back to.
Will a Logi built to slay truly have more HP than an Assault built to slay? If so, how? Their base HP are separated by a 200HP spread. Not to mention, fitting restrictions and recovery rates. It'd be nice if we could get Cyrus to wire up protofits for test builds!
Edit: The last thing I want to see is a return of Slayer Scouts or Slayer Logis. If this is even a remote possibility, I'd fully support implementing harsher plate penalties for one or both classes. I believe this can be done, as it's been done before with Scouts and armor-plate strafe penalty.
The cal logi has an extra low slot and pg mods have been moved to high slots. Stack armor then supplement with shield extenders for a bricked dual tank. So it may be possible to just brick it |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 02:21:00 -
[223] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:True Adamance wrote:
It appears that you still have no presented a reason why the logi needs to be 'faster' than the assault
No two factors affect survivability more than HP and Speed. Where both are low, we find underpowered units. Where both are high, we find overpowered units. Where one is low, and the other is high we find balanced units (all else held constant). It stands to reason that a tradeoff should exist between these two survivability factors. Out-of-the-box, a Logi has 200HP less than its Assault counterpart. This alone is sufficient reason, in my opinion, for them to be faster than Assaults. Yet in eve, logis have more eHP and are far slower. Balanced yes?
And far more ability to apply force projection to their support activities. If a dust logi could lock and rep targets at sniper ranges being slow would pose far less of an issue. Also EVE logi don't have any limiter (eWar aside) beyond range for their applications, there are no LoS considerations merely a question of range within the theater of engagement and a HUD that allows application of support without moving around find, face, etc the recipient (also better locking mechanics, and a battle environment in which generally speaking weapons must lock before they are fired).
DeathwindRising wrote:Then why were the "killer bees" a problem? The had more hp than assaults and were slower, which exactly what they're going back to.
The difference between a logi in eve and a logi in dust is that logis in eve don't have anywhere near the offensive capabilities of assaults. Their dps is non existent.
True, the other difference is that they have massively more powerful support actions. When was the last time a single dust logi, or a dust logi pair, could out rep the incoming damage of multiple simultaneous sources of incoming fire, so much so that "primary the logi" wasn't just a tactical choice but almost an outright necessity.
I've said before, and will happily reiterate here, that I will lay down all weapons in a heart beat, having no guns of any kind on the logi suit if it means the ability to apply shield and armor reps with EVE level magnitude and range.
DeathwindRising wrote:In dust though lol, they have exactly the same dps as assaults.
An assault with an AR and a logi with an AR deal the same exact damage.
That's why we had problems with scouts being better assaults too months ago.
CCP doesn't want to give weapon damage bonuses to separate offensive roles from defensive or support roles.
It's inaccurate to say they have the same damage profile as assaults, an Amarr logi with a scrambler rifle or LR cannot get as much sustained dps out of it as an Amarr assault despite the weapon itself having the same base stats.
Now I fully and readily grant that the racial skills tide to the assault could use a look and some polish as long standing consensus seems to be that they are lack luster (much as the logi and commando frames are) but as much as that mechanic needs a look and some love it doesn't change the validity of the speed to HP ratio.
CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:32:00 -
[224] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:
Then why were the "killer bees" a problem? The had more hp than assaults and were slower, which exactly what they're going back to.
Will a Logi built to slay truly have more HP than an Assault built to slay? If so, how? Their base HP are separated by a 200HP spread. Not to mention, fitting restrictions and recovery rates. It'd be nice if we could get Cyrus to wire up protofits for test builds!
Edit: The last thing I want to see is a return of Slayer Scouts or Slayer Logis. If this is even a remote possibility, I'd fully support implementing harsher plate penalties for one or both classes. I believe this can be done, as it's been done before with Scouts and armor-plate strafe penalty. The cal logi has an extra low slot and pg mods have been moved to high slots. Stack armor then supplement with shield extenders for a bricked dual tank. So it may be possible to just brick it
Understood. Ignoring speed for now, I'm getting:
Logi ck.0
HS: Cmp Shield (x4), Basic PG
LS: Cmp Ferro (x4)
PW: Pro Rail
GR: Basic Flux
EQ: Pro Hive, Empty, Empty
958 HP (515/443), 0 free CPU, 7 free PG
Assault ck.0
HS: Cmp Shield (x4), Cmp PG
LS: Cmp Ferro (x3)
PW: Pro Rail
SW: Adv Bolt
GR: Basic Flux
EQ: Pro Hive
1058 HP (617/441), 52 free CPU, 1 free PG
I completely agree that at the HP spread between these units is too close, especially if the Logi were to be made substantially faster than the Assault:
Logi - 5 m/s movement, 7.35 sprint
Assault - 4.6 m/s movement, 6.76 sprint
^ Assuming values from Page 1
Cross, Pokey, Booby?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:41:00 -
[225] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:
Then why were the "killer bees" a problem? The had more hp than assaults and were slower, which exactly what they're going back to.
Will a Logi built to slay truly have more HP than an Assault built to slay? If so, how? Their base HP are separated by a 200HP spread. Not to mention, fitting restrictions and recovery rates. It'd be nice if we could get Cyrus to wire up protofits for test builds!
Edit: The last thing I want to see is a return of Slayer Scouts or Slayer Logis. If this is even a remote possibility, I'd fully support implementing harsher plate penalties for one or both classes. I believe this can be done, as it's been done before with Scouts and armor-plate strafe penalty. The cal logi has an extra low slot and pg mods have been moved to high slots. Stack armor then supplement with shield extenders for a bricked dual tank. So it may be possible to just brick it Understood. Ignoring speed for now, I'm getting: Logi ck.0HS: Cmp Shield (x4), Basic PG LS: Cmp Ferro (x4) PW: Pro Rail GR: Basic Flux EQ: Pro Hive, Empty, Empty958 HP (515/443), 0 free CPU, 7 free PG Assault ck.0HS: Cmp Shield (x4), Cmp PG LS: Cmp Ferro (x3) PW: Pro Rail SW: Adv Bolt GR: Basic Flux EQ: Pro Hive1058 HP (617/441), 52 free CPU, 1 free PG
I completely agree that the HP spread between these units is too close, especially if the Logi is substantially faster than the Assault. Ideas, Cross?
This is part of why I advocate the Cal logi getting a 4th equipment slot and losing that extra Low Slot. It is also why despite my usual inclinations I would actually support a requirement that logi fill their equipment slots.
Between the two I think we'll see a different profile. (Note, compact hives play a bit of havoc with this but they likely need toned down anyway so assume for current fittings that only one compact hive can be used to fill an EQ slot when filling all required slots. To make it easy to use current proto fits just fill the three slots present, leave the one Low Power slot empty and make sure there is enough remaining fitting to accommodate a compact hive thus simulating that 4th equipment slot).
CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Golden Day
Corrosive Synergy
No Context
2
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:48:00 -
[226] - Quote
Shields....
Im just a glorified blueberry
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Booby Tuesdays
Bad Mother Thukkers
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:57:00 -
[227] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
By different, you mean not-HP related?
Correct. Advanced fit. All modules, weapons, and equipment filled.
Min Assault has 21 less HP than the tanked Logi.
The Assault has one proto shield extender, one proto damage mod, and an enhanced energizer in its highs.
The Assault has one proto kincat, one proto ferroscale plate, and either a proto regulator or a proto dampener.
It has an advanced weapon, a basic sidearm, an advanced grenade, and a compact nanohive.
The Logi has three proto shield extenders in its highs.
The Logi has two enhanced ferroscale, and one basic ferroscale in its lows.
It has an advanced weapon, a basic grenade, an advanced rep tool, a proto hive, and a proto link.
Assault has 645 HP
Logi has 666 HP
Assault has better regen for stamina and shields, 1.25 m/s better speed, better DPS, better dampening, and better survivability with the rep hives.
Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:58:00 -
[228] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
Logi ck.0
958 HP (515/443), 0 free CPU, 7 free PG
Assault ck.0
1058 HP (617/441), 52 free CPU, 1 free PG
I completely agree that the HP spread between these units is too close, especially if the Logi is substantially faster than the Assault.
Ideas, Cross? This is part of why I advocate the Cal logi getting a 4th equipment slot and losing that extra Low Slot. It is also why despite my usual inclinations I would actually support a requirement that logi fill their equipment slots. Between the two I think we'll see a different profile. (Note, compact hives play a bit of havoc with this but they likely need toned down anyway so assume for current fittings that only one compact hive can be used to fill an EQ slot when filling all required slots. To make it easy to use current proto fits just fill the three slots present, leave the one Low Power slot empty and make sure there is enough remaining fitting to accommodate a compact hive thus simulating that 4th equipment slot).
If we swap the CalLogi's extra Low Slot for one EQ we're still at 875 HP. That's ~20% less HP than the Assault, and the Logi will be ~9% faster (assuming speeds on Page 1). As a point of reference, scout base mobility is presently ~8% removed from Assault base mobility at a base HP spread of > 200%.
Still seems too close to me. Logis aren't my field though. What am I missing?
I may be misreading, but Rattati also mentions here normalizing fitting capacity to help the CalLogi.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Booby Tuesdays
Bad Mother Thukkers
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 03:03:00 -
[229] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
Understood. Ignoring speed for now, I'm getting:
Logi ck.0
HS: Cmp Shield (x4), Basic PG
LS: Cmp Ferro (x4)
PW: Pro Rail
GR: Basic Flux
EQ: Pro Hive, Empty, Empty
958 HP (515/443), 0 free CPU, 7 free PG
Assault ck.0
HS: Cmp Shield (x4), Cmp PG
LS: Cmp Ferro (x3)
PW: Pro Rail
SW: Adv Bolt
GR: Basic Flux
EQ: Pro Hive
1058 HP (617/441), 52 free CPU, 1 free PG
I completely agree that at the HP spread between these units is too close, especially if the Logi were to be made substantially faster than the Assault:
Logi - 5 m/s movement, 7.35 sprint
Assault - 4.6 m/s movement, 6.76 sprint
^ Assuming values from Page 1
Cross, Pokey, Booby?
Instances like this is why some of us Logis are advocating for equipment slots being forced to be fitted to obtain a valid fitting.
Remember, the Cal Logi was the only slayer logi, as it had the bonus to shield extender modules, and benefited from the most OP gun ever, the dreaded TAC AR.
Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
23
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Posted - 2015.05.28 03:05:00 -
[230] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:demens grimwulff wrote:On a second note... making sure all equipment slots are filled is almost useless, too...
Slayer logi with 3 or 4 compact nanohives? Make all equipment slots mandatory + increase CPU/PG fitting bonuses for logis + reduce CPU/PG for logis = plenty of CPU/PG for equipment but not much left for brick tanking and proto weaponry.
exactly
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 03:06:00 -
[231] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:
Remember, the Cal Logi was the only slayer logi, as it had the bonus to shield extender modules ...
At risk of derailment, I seem to recall running into packs of Nyain San running GalLogi immediately after the CalLogi was nerfed.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2015.05.28 03:12:00 -
[232] - Quote
alias lycan wrote:Cross Atu wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!!
Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster?
The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. As a CPM and thus community rep I feel it important to confirm, publicly and on the record that CCP Rattati is not a sufferer of melissophobia, unlike some poor unfortunates in our community. Rattati wasnt around long enough to remember. The real vets still have scars from the numerous stings. I believe rattati mentioned something about cal logis being punished for old sins. Well the sin was it was the only suit that could have 600 shielding with room to spare.
I've played longer than you, or a matter of fact anyone here. I was the first alpha tester and have played every build ever since 
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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hails8n
DEATH BY DESTRUCTION
243
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Posted - 2015.05.28 03:13:00 -
[233] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:demens grimwulff wrote:On a second note... making sure all equipment slots are filled is almost useless, too...
Slayer logi with 3 or 4 compact nanohives? Make all equipment slots mandatory + increase CPU/PG fitting bonuses for logis + reduce CPU/PG for logis = plenty of CPU/PG for equipment but not much left for brick tanking and proto weaponry. exactly
As long as my current logi fits remain viable. I dont stack armor plates, i stack reactives .
Petition to ban the trainyard map.
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2015.05.28 03:19:00 -
[234] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:So I guess for me I would say to all of the Assault players out there:
"Assuming this speed/hp ratio goes through, what sort of changes to Assaults would you want to see in order to make the tradeoff between Assault and Logistics worth it, and solidify the Assault as the better slayer suit?" Assuming eHP / Speed is implemented as described, spitballing ...
Caveat: Idea #1 assumes that other units are threatening to encroach upon Assault slayer territory. This potentiality is arguably unlikely; Idea #1 is presented as a contingency.
Idea #1) Wire all Assaults with a higher sprint multiplier than other frames (credit to Ripley Riley). Thinking short bursts of speed for moving from cover-to-cover or getting to the frontlines faster. This should be a "special property" unique to Assault frames. Regular Sprint Multiplier (current ---> future)Assault Frame: mCharProp.movementSprint.groundSpeedScale = 1.4GA/CA Assault Base Speed: 5 m/s ----> 4.6 m/s MN Assault Base Speed: 5.3 m/s ---> 4.8 m/s AM Assault Base Speed: 4.8 m/s ---> 4.3 m/s GA/CA Assault Sprint Speed: 7.35 m/s ---> 6.76 m/s MN Assault Sprint Speed: 7.79 m/s ---> 7.06 m/s AM Assault Sprint Speed: 7.06 m/s ---> 6.43 m/s Special Sprint Multiplier (proposed)Assault Frame: mCharProp.movementSprint.groundSpeedScale = 1.5GA/CA Assault Base Speed: 4.6 m/s MN Assault Base Speed: 4.8 m/s AM Assault Base Speed: 4.3 m/s GA/CA Assault Sprint Speed: 7.25 m/s MN Assault Sprint Speed: 7.56 m/s AM Assault Sprint Speed: 6.77 m/s If my maths are correct, the MN Assault with this "special sprint multiplier" will sprint at a slightly lower speed (7.56 m/s) than the AM Scout and the future MN Logi (7.72 m/s). Kindly note that only sprint speeds are affected by this proposed "special multiplier" and that base movement speeds (and other speeds derived from base movement) remain exactly as Rattati has outlined on Page 1.
Idea #2) Improve Gal and Cal Assault bonuses: * Gal Assault: Replace bonus to dispersion with bonus to rate-of-fire * Cal Assault: Replace bonus to reload with bonus to kick while aiming-down-sights
Disclaimer: Part-Time Assault
Making Assault sprint faster is a very smart idea. Maybe reducing Logi stamina as well.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Booby Tuesdays
Bad Mother Thukkers
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 03:23:00 -
[235] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:If we swap the CalLogi's extra Low Slot for one EQ, the above loadout weighs in at 875 HP. That's ~20% less HP than the similarly fit Assault, and the Logi will be ~9% faster (assuming speeds on Page 1). As a point of reference, scout base mobility is presently ~8% removed from that of Assault at a base HP spread in excess of 200%. To me, this tanky CalLogi's HP still seems too close a similarly fit CalAssault, even with one less low-slot. Logis aren't my field though. What am I missing? I may be misreading, but Rattati also mentions here normalizing fitting capacity to help the CalLogi.
Don't forget that there are no hard numbers as of yet. Just the mysterious graph. This entire thread was designed to point out flaws, as some have, and to make counter proposals.
I think the speed gap, based on the mystery graph, is too high. The Assaults should be faster than Basic, slightly slower than Logis.
Your base HP spread for Scouts is with no modules fitted, yes? If so, then the same can be said for Logis. They have a roughly 70% HP spread, and this is across the same sized suit (medium frame).
Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
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Booby Tuesdays
Bad Mother Thukkers
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Posted - 2015.05.28 03:30:00 -
[236] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
Making Assault sprint faster is a very smart idea. Maybe reducing Logi stamina as well.
That was why I asked originally. Logi's movement speed needs to be fast enough to keep up with a sprinting heavy at the minimum. Their sprint speed doesn't need to be faster than Assaults, but it needs to be closer.
The Logis already have less stamina, and a slower regen. Why nerf it more if we go with the Assaults still sprinting (slightly) faster than the Logis?
Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
19
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Posted - 2015.05.28 03:33:00 -
[237] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
Making Assault sprint faster is a very smart idea. Maybe reducing Logi stamina as well.
This I can get behind. Though you'd have to be careful so that it doesn't "bleed over", as Adipem puts it, into the scout role.
"Crush all who complain!"
- Arkena Wyrnspire
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
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Posted - 2015.05.28 03:35:00 -
[238] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:
Your base HP spread for Scouts is with no modules fitted, yes? If so, then the same can be said for Logis. They have a roughly 70% HP spread, and this is across the same sized suit (medium frame).
Not exactly. I was comparing the HP/Speed tradeoff (-20% / +9%) of the specific case outlined above (tanky assault ck.0 vs tanky logi ck.0) to the HP/Speed tradeoff of naked Scout to naked Assault (-215% / +9%). In both cases, the units are similarly fit. Moot point; Rattati answered the question.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 03:36:00 -
[239] - Quote
Going to echo Kalante's concerns about the Assaults.
The only Assaults that could even remotely pose a problem right now are Minmatar Assaults which have incredible versatility, excellent bonuses geared for slaying, and the mobility crossing into Scout territory. Amarr Assaults -maybe- a problem because they have a really good slayer bonus toward a very powerful weapon system (scramblers/assault scramblers).
This nerf is universal though and while it's great that it helps Logis, it's nerfing Assaults for the sake of 'progression' and 'making sense' with no real cause. I'd imagine someone (probably a CPM) sat behind the curtain and nudged this change along with the good intentions of making Logis and Commandos more viable but at the same time did one of the following:
a) Instituted a level of anti-assault bias in what can only be considered an unnecessary Assault nerf.
b) Figured that the hit to Assaults would be temporary and that we'd be okay with taking that hit until changes were made to re-balance us (even though we're still waiting for decent bonuses)
c) Simply overlooked it.
None of those are a good justification for why we shouldn't iron this out -now- and honestly, if your problem is the Minmatar Assault, hit the Minmatar Assault. Leave the Assaults at their current speed, buff the Logis, and then we get around to having more viable bonuses for Assaults -THEN- we can nerf them. At the moment it's wholly unnecessary and the only real reason to reduce their speed is to satiate a level of OCD in the EHP/Speed curve.
EDIT: Mandatory equipment fitting on Logi's is also a bad move because then you're just going to have people clamoring for Type-II Logi's that are more oriented for combat. They're doing that -already- so adding ammo to the argument isn't helping much. I'm all down for decreasing PG/CPU and decreasing fitting costs for equipment though.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2015.05.28 03:36:00 -
[240] - Quote
Leither Yiltron wrote:I think it's rapidly becoming clear that the debate on this topic is going to come down to whether it's possible within the proposed "speed vs eHP" trade off paradigm to make additional changes that result in balance.
The issue here is that we have these knobs to turn where suit balance is concerned:
- Fitting (PG/CPU)
- Role+Racial bonuses
- Speed and speed related statistics (the idea of messing with the sprint modifier is novel)
- Slot layout
- Base HP and other HP related statistics (EG repair rate and shield delay)
Of all these, speed and HP are probably the least discrete. What I mean by a "discrete" variable is that even the smallest change in that variable has a high potential to change balance. Slot layout, in particular, is extremely discrete just based on the evidence that the different suit classes provide.
By tying HP and speed together in a firm relationship, we lose a "knob" from the above list. We can still twist the twin HP-speed subsystem knob, but they can't really be twisted independently. The ensuing discussion has focused around the other knobs: Slot layout. suit bonuses, and combinations of those.
Here's my question that I don't really have the answer to because it's hard, but really needs to be considered: Is it possible to achieve a reasonable state of balance after adopting the HP-speed tie-together given the highly discrete nature of slot layouts and to a lesser extent suit bonuses? It's possible that the answer is no, which puts us in Kage's camp. In that case we can still tie speed and HP together in the proposed way, but tune that combined "knob" to a different position.
On a different note, I think it's important to note that speed doesn't affect survivability exclusively. Speed is also a substantial contributor to aggression potential. I think that's one of the reasons I'm a bit afraid of the "killer bees" returning. From an anecdotal perspective, I run ferroscale plates as opposed to regular ones. It's not that the speed necessarily just keeps me alive more than the HP bonus, it's that I can also choose to take fights and chase down fleeing opponents more readily.
In different skype chats yesterday, i was discussing this a lot.
The designs need to make sense, intuitively.
In order of priority, imagine a pyramid
Slot progression needs to make sense, within roles and between roles
PG/CPU capacity as they relate to slots and their layout
HP and Speed are inverse, that's just physics and again intuitive
These 3 principles form the foundation for Dropsuits. While they don't make sense, all the small things on top don't really matter. That's why I am not tackling role bonuses, because the foundation is cracked and not worth building on.
When all roles have the proper foundation, we can move forward with finetuning
1) I intend for Logis and Assault and Basics to share the same PG/CPU and possibly total number of slots. The way to balance it is to require logis to fit equipment, and give each role the specific fitting bonuses for the role.
1a) We did this for Sentinels and Assaults, and it worked very well by aligning them and normalizing based on Scouts, that were the best in class. Just by aligning slots and capacity/slot, with a dash of hp, they became viable. Now, after some time has passed, we can take the next step. Logis and Commandos are undeniably the least viable specialty roles, and Assault are very strong. If it means they need to take a kincat instead of a plate, then so be it. I have already taken into account
2) Now when they all have a normalized and sound progression, we can finally move to where I want to be. I want to stop messing around, and patching dropsuits. They need to be stable and a fixed point. I then want to balance with PG/CPU costs and power of Gear, and role bonuses. Is the Caldari Assault bad? Maybe, but then we figure out the tunable parameters we have instead of always messing around with the foundation. Shield regen, cost of regulators, fiting bonus to Rail tech, etc.
In short, talking about role bonuses now, is like putting a bandage on a broken leg.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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