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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 31 post(s) |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
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Posted - 2015.05.27 09:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Oh you know I love clean rational designs.
Much like inversely related Range vs DPS , inversely related Speed vs HP makes a lot of sense and brings better continuity to the game.
As for Commandos in particular, the addition of another slot and an increase to mobility is exactly what I wanted to see.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 14:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:The Min Logi getting its first ever buff? Logi suits and Commando suits, my two primary play styles, are getting a buff? I never thought I would see the day!!!
Is the Logi speed buff for movement speed only, or sprint speed as well? Will Logis move faster, but Assaults sprint faster?
The Slayer Logi QQ is expected, but you are seriously nerfing yourself by trying to make a Logi perform an Assaults role... I am not worried about killer bees. sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up. Coolio.  Have you considered forcing all equipment slots to be filled to make a valid fit? I have, but that will be a later part when I am balancing the same powercore for assaults and logistics.
The key to avoiding the issue is to make the fitting reduction bonus on the Logistics significantly higher and then reducing the overall resources. This way fitting equipment is very 'cheap' but refusal to fit equipment does not free up many resources to spend on additional defenses.
Since you're going to be touching on resources anyways for Logistics with the change in slots, this is the prime opportunity to address this issue.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 19:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
You don't understand my post. I never claimed that logis would get an HP buff.
My point is that the HP disadvantage will be completely cancelled out with higher speed, just like the assaults HP will be cancelled out with the speed nerf. With speed and HP advantages and disadvantages cancelling out, that leaves the logis on top because of the significantly higher equipment count.
Mentioning KinKats is irrelevant considering both assaults and logistics can equally fit them.
There is no need to nerf the speed of assaults as Rattati is planning to do because assaults as a whole (not talking about an individual basis) they are balanced right now, and a nerf will only serve to make them underpowered. Nerfing things that are balanced can never be a good thing.
While I understand the point you're making, I feel like many people are undervaluing the Assault Bonuses themselves.
An Amarr Logistics will not be able to make use of Laser Weapons nearly as well as an Amarr Assault. So if we go under the assumption you made that the speed/hp ratio effectively cancels each other out, would that not place the suits at similar survivability, with the Assault being better at killing due to their Assault bonus, and then the Logistics better at supporting with more equipment and bonuses to support it?
Part of this may stem back to the time old issue of Assaults vs Commandos, and partially to the fact that many weapons perform very well, even without Assault Bonuses. I wonder if we did something like put a +1% Racial Damage/lvl bonus on the Assault (5% total) and then reduce damage of light weapons by 5%? Or something to more clearly solidify an Assault's advantage in terms of killing over other suits.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 19:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
I get your point, but even if all of the racial assault bonuses actually made a difference (only 2 really do), that still doesn't trump the multitude of equipment slots. Its really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis.
See that's where it gets really tricky because you're then dealing with a qualitative analysis of relative worth between Assault Bonuses (and you're right only 2 are really worth it) and having more equipment. I personally feel that people seem to put more worth in the equipment than they should, mostly due to leftover fear from when Logistics were stupidly broken, but again that's just a personal assessment.
I think what Rattati is really going for here is "How can we make all suits feel roughly equally survivable?" and I feel that's a good direction to go with it. And as you have stated, the tradeoff of speed vs defense makes the suits 'equal' which I also think is a good thing. At which point my main question is "How can we make the Assault Bonuses feel like they're a fair tradeoff from the Logistics equipment?"
Sadly I fear the answer is probably "Well if only the Commandos and Assaults were combined into one suit....." but that gets really tricky because it would basically mean the removal of Commandos from the game, which would likely be a nightmare on many fronts. Plus I have some pretty strong personal bias in that I love my Commando Q_Q
So I guess for me I would say to all of the Assault players out there:
"Assuming this speed/hp ratio goes through, what sort of changes to Assaults would you want to see in order to make the tradeoff between Assault and Logistics worth it, and solidify the Assault as the better slayer suit?"
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 19:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the qualitative value. I do think the assaults' bonuses are canceled out by the logitics' bonuses, so I don't count it as a point for the worth of assaults vs logistics and their equipment.
Anyway, I'm still not convinced the assaults need a speed nerf. I would be alright if it was something small, but the proposal is far too drastic, and undermines the assault's role of being a mobile frontline fighter that rushes objectives. Furthermore, I think the logis would be in a good place with the speed buff without having to nerf assaults.
I meant to say "Its NOT really about fearing logis being better at slaying, but about logis just simply being better than assaults in a general sense because of disadvantages vs benefits being in favor of the logis," but I didn't edit the post fast enough. Seems like you know what I meant, but felt I should clarify.
Sorry if I was unclear. I meant that if this proposal goes through, that the overall survivability of the suits would be the same.
My question for you is, what would need to happen (assuming the speed chamges) to the Assault bonus so that you would feel assault and logistics are of equal worth (including bonuses and equipment) overall?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 20:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Wouldn't it make more sense just to buff logi eHP and nerf assault eHP?
If it fits the HP/speed curve, sure.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 21:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
I mean something to consider... The old slayer logis were problematic because they had so much HP from bonuses. It stands to reason that Rattati wanted to avoid this issue by buffing speed instead of HP in order to bring up survivability while avoiding huge buffer like we used to have.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
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Posted - 2015.05.27 21:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:I mean something to consider... The old slayer logis were problematic because they had so much HP from bonuses. It stands to reason that Rattati wanted to avoid this issue by buffing speed instead of HP in order to bring up survivability while avoiding huge buffer like we used to have.
While I agree with that statement it seems illogical to have logistics players advancing faster than your assault units. I don't see a need to differentiate their speeds. Asssault dropsuits are primarily aggression and weapons focused while logistics are support and equipment focused. Logi players shouldn't want to be outrunning their team mates, on the other hand, assaults should want to be in the enemy teams face all the time. Why not instead buff Logistics speed up to that of Assaults so that they get what they want however do not drag down another class to do it.
Well the idea is to have a HP to speed curve, so equal speed would mean Logis would have equal HP too, which I don't think people want.
If not equal, then one needs to be superior one way or another. Logis would have either more HP and less speed, or more speed and less HP.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 21:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Well personally I was more a fan of more HP, less speed, better stamina for logi vs assault. But that's just me
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 22:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Perhaps instead of a speed to HP curve, its speed to mobility curve, where mobility is defined as a function of speed and stamina? You could then vary speed for logistics to maintain the proper mobility by throttling stamina as your independent variable?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 22:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well personally I was more a fan of more HP, less speed, better stamina for logi vs assault. But that's just me All I am saying is that I fundamentally disagree with the premise of the Speed vs HP curve. One one end of the spectrum you have your Fast, Low Hp Scouts, on the other your have the Commando and Sentinels Slow and with high HP values. In the middle I am convinced it would be better to have the standardised Medium Frames of the Assault and Logi with similar speeds one having more HP, the other having lower HP in exchange for 3x Equipment Slots and better EWAR.
I have an idea. Let me collect my thoughts and put something together after work. I think it may be a good compromise for everyone.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 07:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Just something I was playing around with, an alternative idea on quantifying Mobility vs HP.
This is just a rough, conceptual project (because this is what sickness looks like) so by no means are the numbers anything you should focus on. More or less showing an idea for a methodology of design.
I present two test case studies that net fairly similar results but do so by buffing different stats. I also understand that the Mobility Index is tricky to come up with since it attempts to assign a cumulative worth of various stats and their weight within that sum. Math and ****.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s-Y9wlM7v8P6KT0xsjhkQqruUPDmJkuXWrTU2mswmMg/edit?usp=sharing
Who knows, it may just be gibberish, haven't had much sleep lately and if this keeps up I'm going to start looking like Rattati.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 12:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
The way I chose was to calculate mobility as a "traverse" index, how long does it take to cross X meters, and how far can I get through one sprint and sprint recovery phase.
I need to the same thing for shields and shield regen.
Actually pretty slick, I like that. +1
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 02:51:00 -
[14] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:A note of concern. There's too much bias toward hp tanking. Rattati mentions an additional slot for commandos. Why?
Are slots only for extenders and plates? Why can't anything other than hp mods be viable or useful? If you're going to add a slot, what are all possible uses of slot and are any of them going to make it otherwise OP?
If caldari commando gets an extra slot, will it be a high slot for hp and damage mods or a low slot for an additional shield regulator for increase regen ability or kincats and cardiac regulators for increased mobility. That's what an additional slot offers.
Rattatis KDR data already shows the the cal commando as the most efficient suit in the game as a sniper platform. Would an additional high slot really be used for an hp mod or to further bolster it's already impressive sniping ability?
Well personally speaking, I want an additional high slot on my Gallente Commando so I could have a damage mod at STD levels.
Also as for forced equipment, it's really not going to do much. People will simply stack on 4 Compact Nanohives and call it a day. It's a crude solution that won't bear the degree of intended results that people want. The only way to properly get the intended effect is through fitting reduction bonuses.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2015.06.03 03:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Leither Yiltron wrote:Pretty Graphs
Really fascinating stuff. You can tell that Stamina is pretty powerful in this model since the Amarr seem to have a higher ranking than Caldari and Gallente, but the Minmatar's sprint speed with good stamina is also significant as it clearly tends to outclass other races within the role.
The fact that Minmatar have a good mix of speed and stamina is also interesting since their ranking is more spread out, particularly at the heavier suits but that could be due to the very high stamina regen.
I'd be very curious to see these graphs again with various proposed changes.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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