I mean for real, it's like, yeah, Assaults are over-used and Logis/Commandos are under-used. Why is it 100% necessary to change all of them when a comparable buff to Logis/Commandos might just be all that's needed?

What evidence do we have that supports that buffing Logis/Commandos and subsequently nerfing Assaults in the same pass -ISN'T- going to drastically shift the meta spectrum in a way that is unhealthy?

We're going for this huge overarching change on the hopes and prayers that maybe it'll work with the added consequence of another six months dev time being spent toward balancing it all in the eventuality that it doesn't. Rather than the logical thing which would be to take it slow, do it in stages, and maybe find the balance on the way there. We're going -RIGHT BACK- to the Balance Pendulum where we make so many drastic changes that we overshoot our goal and have to dial it back and forth until it starts working.

Which by that point we'd have come up with another "looks good on paper" proposal and go through the entire process again.

The solution is clear and very simple: Buff the Logistics/Commandos. See how it works. If people start to transition from the Assaults to those classes than the nerf might not be entirely necessary. If it's doesn't, then we can -ABSOLUTELY- continue with the rest of the changes.

Now that's an interesting find.

The way I chose was to calculate mobility as a "traverse" index, how long does it take to cross X meters, and how far can I get through one sprint and sprint recovery phase.

I need to the same thing for shields and shield regen.

I mean for real, it's like, yeah, Assaults are over-used and Logis/Commandos are under-used. Why is it 100% necessary to change all of them when a comparable buff to Logis/Commandos might just be all that's needed?

What evidence do we have that supports that buffing Logis/Commandos and subsequently nerfing Assaults in the same pass -ISN'T- going to drastically shift the meta spectrum in a way that is unhealthy?

We're going for this huge overarching change on the hopes and prayers that maybe it'll work with the added consequence of another six months dev time being spent toward balancing it all in the eventuality that it doesn't. Rather than the logical thing which would be to take it slow, do it in stages, and maybe find the balance on the way there. We're going -RIGHT BACK- to the Balance Pendulum where we make so many drastic changes that we overshoot our goal and have to dial it back and forth until it starts working.

Which by that point we'd have come up with another "looks good on paper" proposal and go through the entire process again.

The solution is clear and very simple: Buff the Logistics/Commandos. See how it works. If people start to transition from the Assaults to those classes than the nerf might not be entirely necessary. If it's doesn't, then we can -ABSOLUTELY- continue with the rest of the changes.

Just because it's not a direct counter doesn't mean that the two aren't going to interact in some way.

... as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same .

I totally get what you are saying (although we've moved away from what you were originally saying about Gallente Assaults, that I was responding to). Which is why I asked Rattati not to implement the changes originally proposed as I thought they were too extreme.

It doesn't look like you have much to worry about anyway, as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same, just nerf movement (kind of meaningless) and buff stamina. So barely a nerf at all.

In principle though, all assault suits appear to be a little overpowered when compared with all other classes, not just logis and commandos. So buffing logis and commandos at the same time is irrelevant, as assaults will still be op when compared to sentinels and scouts.

So the MN Assault will still sprint faster than the AM Scout?

If we're sticking to the figures on Page 1, this overlap would not occur. MN Assault Base of 4.80 with a sprint multiplier of 1.5 yields sprint speed of 7.56 (less than AM Scout's 7.72).

If not the figures on Page 1, what figures are we using?

I'll take the movement speed over the sprint speed -ANY- day.

My understanding is we are going with figures on page 1, so yes, Min assaults would suffer a sprint speed reduction. I was thinking about assaults in general and forgot about this tweak.

Specifically I was referring to Rattati's post stating that assault sprint speeds would remain the same as now, but I'm sure he meant apart from Min assaults, as he was referencing the page 1 proposal with the sprint modifier added.

Sprint
Basic = normal = 1.4x
Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x
Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x

^ This excerpt from his latest post has me confused as well; if I'm reading this correctly, it returns an altogether different set of numbers than those graphed on Page 1. And both of these number sets are different from the number set needed to maintain current sprint speeds at a 1.5 multiplier.

:: tinkers with spreadsheet ::

sprint and strafe speeds are just multipliers off of movement speed, so all go up.

Why am I not surprised.

But I concede it's not a worthless stat, though I suspect the proposed reduction will have only moderate in game effect. Too slow and it's a problem, but this proposal is only a minor nerf.

And may I just say, on the subject of incremental changes. I said a number of times, prior to the major assault buff, that adding a module slot at the same time as 100 base hp, was too much of a buff in one go. Seems I was right.

I was under the impression this just refers to the sprint modifier.

This quote from Rattati:

Medium (Logistics and Assault)
Speed changes as in OP
Sprint changes,
Logis from 1.4 to 1.3 modifier, means they have the same sprint speed as they do now
Assault from 1.4 to 1.5, means they retain current sprint

I thought still stands, meaning sprint speeds won't change (except from Min assaults). I could be wrong. I haven't checked that page 1 assault speed x 1.5 = current sprint speed.

Maybe the post you quoted changes things don't know.

I can't even wrap my head around the irony here - the argument (I assume as I still haven't gotten a direct answer) was that Assaults were too mobile and got too much EHP for this hypothetical EHP/Speed curve

Yet, not three pages ago, we were arguing that an Assault can get 9m/s sprint speed with 900 EHP.

So what's the -actual- problem? What are you guys trying to accomplish here besides making the shoe fit after you've hit the foot with the hammer?

"Scouts should have the same movement speed as Logis" in this case and watch the cascade of hatred/rage come pouring out of the Barbershop.

I'll take the movement speed over the sprint speed -ANY- day.

So it's a problem that I would prefer to have movement speed over sprint speed? Is that why you're mockingly posting rolley-eyed smileys?

Prototype Gallente Assault (oh nooos he's talking about his playstyle, something he's familiar with instead of talking out of his ass about something he doesn't play) with x5 Complex Reactive Plates = 4.75m/s movement speed right now. After the nerf, that drops down to 4.37m/s

That's right around the same movement speed as a Gallente Commando (which obviously is a pretty stark difference in mobility).
*interesting commando - assault comparison*

Sprint
Basic = normal = 1.4x
Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x
Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x

^ This excerpt from his latest post has me confused as well; if I'm reading this correctly, it returns an altogether different set of numbers than those graphed on Page 1. And both of these number sets are different from the number set needed for Assaults to maintain current sprint speeds at a 1.5 multiplier.

:: tinkers with spreadsheet ::

Don't spend too much time on the numbers until you have more data from me ...

So it's a problem that I would prefer to have movement speed over sprint speed? Is that why you're mockingly posting rolley-eyed smileys?

Excuse me while I accept the point that my opinion isn't worthwhile here.

BS aside, if it's so much of a minor change then why would it be up for debate for Logistics players? Early you said it was meaningless, now you're saying it's not a worthless stat but it's a minor change - but if that's the case then it wouldn't be as controversial as it is. Because it's not. Let me speak from experience here:

Prototype Gallente Assault (oh nooos he's talking about his playstyle, something he's familiar with instead of talking out of his ass about something he doesn't play) with x5 Complex Reactive Plates = 4.75m/s movement speed right now. After the nerf, that drops down to 4.37m/s

That's right around the same movement speed as a Gallente Commando (which obviously is a pretty stark difference in mobility). Interestingly enough, what I get for that by comparison is:

Gal Assault with x5 Complex Reactives:
193.75 shield
673.75 aarmor
867.5 EHP
19.5hp/s armor repair rate

Gal Commando with absolutely nothing on it:
487.5 shields
656.25 armor
1143.75 EHP
4 hp/s

So the trade-off for adding on a bunch of Reactive Plates is that I have the same mobility as a Commando (with faster sprint speed -I guess-), worse EHP, no second light weapon, and a grenade. Functionally? The Commando weighs in as the victor because he has more firepower, better bonuses, and higher EHP. The Assault gets... Well, higher sprint speed and a grenade.

Do you see my issue now? The Assault has nothing that makes it unique, the bonuses are subpar, and now the mobility is going to be on par with Commandos in certain situations albeit with a lack of EHP and damage application. What role does the Assault serve? A bridge between Scouts and Commandos with none of the benefits of either...? Instead of trying to address that, we're noting the fact that they're being used because other roles aren't up to snuff and punishing them for that. We're not hallmarking on distinctive roles or unique applicability, we're just nerfing it because it's "whats in" right now.

Now I am home and practicing my guitar, wondering whether to brave Bloodborne again, or stay here and do more math.

Don't spend too much time on the numbers until you have more data from me, I have taken things into account from here, and am pretty sure I will reduce assault speed much less, maybe 0.3 instead of 0.5 and also increase stamina and sprint modifier. It's all good guys, and I am trying to make a smart, robust and fair system out of the thing we have.

Good thing its super late/early otherwise my good senses would get the better of me. I'm actually having trouble trying to tie down your arguments.

What and Why?



Again I'm indifferent, but I don't find it hard to understand or locate the what and why of the arguments, whether we agree with them or not is not important to fundamentally understand what others see as a problem. Others clearly believe that assaults have too much hp for their mobility, that is literally the basis of the concern, and it didn't' seem to be some unstated intention.

Rat's suggestion is clearly some form of compromise as an attempt to allow assaults to keep pushing the frontal lines by being able to cover the same distance in the same time as they currently do while still fitting on his regression line of ehp and speed which is based on scout and sentinel anchor points.

The scale





It might be possible that you miss the point of the curve. By reducing the scout speed to logi status, it then gains logi ehp potential. Also any introduction of new suits (not happening), would easily be placed on this spectrum based on knowing just one of the numbers on this stat. Also we can theoretically with a ehp speed scale reduce assault ehp potential and increase their base speed if you value speed more so than health, in which case its not the curve but the value in speed which is the source of conflict here.


In short, I'm just trying to see what is really the core of your concerns, I can't tell if not understanding the concerns of the other side, or its that you just value base walk speed more than ehp, or you think 2 things changing at once is terrible, or that assaults shouldn't have to follow the tic for tac exchange which all the other suits are being modified by because game mechanics don't work with a simple curve. I don't have to defend the position because its not mine, but I'd say its rather hard to give a good discussion when the list kind of goes all over the place rather than focusing on one concern at a time.

edit:

I have a feeling its the last underline/bold is the base of your concern, which is a good topic as there are many variables in the game besides speed and ehp. But then we should be discussing that, and not the other stuff.

Would it be possible to lower the strafe speed multiplier by any chance?
Having more tactical, use cover effectively instead of charge then wiggle wiggle fire fights would be great.

Yes, but we actually just increased the strafe penalty on plates, but overall reduction of strafe can also been done, and contemplated by me often.

strafing at 60% base movement speed in chrome wasn't a feature too many people cried over. I still dunno why they upped it to 90 in 1.4

I would happily consider it again for the sake of other players, but I'm a MKB twitch fps player by heart and I think skill should be rewarded, and yes, good strafing while aiming is a difficult skill to master.

It might be possible that you miss the point of the curve. By reducing the scout speed to logi status, it then gains logi ehp potential. Also any introduction of new suits (not happening), would easily be placed on this spectrum based on knowing just one of the numbers on this stat. Also we can theoretically with a ehp speed scale reduce assault ehp potential and increase their base speed if you value speed more so than health, in which case its not the curve but the value in speed which is the source of conflict here.


In short, I'm just trying to see what is really the core of your concerns, I can't tell if not understanding the concerns of the other side, or its that you just value base walk speed more than ehp, or you think 2 things changing at once is terrible, or that assaults shouldn't have to follow the tic for tac exchange which all the other suits are being modified by because game mechanics don't work with a simple curve. I don't have to defend the position because its not mine, but I'd say its rather hard to give a good discussion when the list kind of goes all over the place rather than focusing on one concern at a time.

edit:

I have a feeling its the last underline/bold is the base of your concern, which is a good topic as there are many variables in the game besides speed and ehp. But then we should be discussing that, and not the other stuff.

I have decided not to read your posts in this thread anymore, and soon you will be banned, probably, for ranting, insinuating and tinfoiling.

Even though I hate to do it, I will explain this once more. Players are always drawn to the best combination of HP and speed, this has been demonstrated often enough in DUST 514. Therefore, I am attempting to eliminate that "draw" by having a semi-fixed ratio of hp/speed so players can actually just choose what they want to play for the right reasons. Another insinuation of "Rattati just likes straight lines, there is no reason" and there will be consequences. Even on top of that, Assaults are the top meta right now for that reason. If I reduce Assault down to the curve and drag logis and commandos up to it, there is less risk of a nerf/buff chain reaction.

Interesting comparison with a Gallente Commando. I don't think things are as bad for assaults as you think though. The Commando will need to fit mostly regen to get reasonable armour regen. And whilst they have higher shields, the regen is worse, and they have a larger hitbox, and they have poorer stamina and stamina regen, and they have poorer EWAR stats. Mainly though I feel you are really undervaluing sprint speed.

That said, reducing movement speed to near commando speeds is kind of slow, I'll give you that. Haven't checked the numbers, but I'll trust you. So I will further revise my assessment. Movements speed, other than sprint, will suffer a substantial nerf. I still don't think this will likely constitute a major nerf to the assault role overall, considering the fact that sprint speeds will be maintained.

I still don't particularly like the idea of messing with sprint speed modifiers though.

The way I chose was to calculate mobility as a "traverse" index, how long does it take to cross X meters, and how far can I get through one sprint and sprint recovery phase.

I need to the same thing for shields and shield regen.

The vast majority of the playerbase are running Assault at the moment. If we nerf their favorite suits, we might lose some of them, even if it is warranted and even it brings about better balance.