You remember that? =ƒÿâ

[...]
I cannot use the strafe exploit because I use the M/KB, because the wiggle dance is DEPENDENT upon Aim Assist, which allows reticle magnetism to briefly attach to the target and grant you a precious second of firing time on target with each pass, if you time it and fire in bursts, you can literally appear as a gun-game god among the masses.

M/KB players cannot enjoy aim assist, it is excluded from our control scheme. Therefore, people who wiggle are vastly more effective against so-called "mouse cheaters."

[...]

Good idea. Maybe we're looking at mobility backwards.
Sprint: Logi > Assault. Movement: Assaults > Logi.

Will put together some numbers later today

You remember that? =ƒÿâ

Easy or hard it is an objective reality and we either live with that or live with continued imbalance until the servers burn out.
I have yet to see any evidence which indicates there is a viable long term third option.

That is literally not able to be an alternative to what I was talking about.
Specific changes nerf or buff, to any given aspect can be part of a base method, or can happen absent a base method but in no case are they an alternative to a choice between having a base method or not.

Added Worksheet: Spero's Concept

> Google Doc <

In essence, an inversion of Ripley Riley's vision (Assaults sprinting from cover to cover or from spawn to frontline). Rather, Assaults maintain current movement speeds and a decreased sprint multiplier. Logis maintain current movement speeds and an increased sprint multiplier.

Friendly Reminder: Figures prepared for spitballing purposes only.

... the cautious approach.

.....? I said the exact same thing and you guys said that it was guarantee'd slayer Logis.

Maybe I should just get Kain to speak for me from now on?

Honestly, I only read a small percentage of what people write if they're throwing a fit. Usually the first line of each paragraph. If you recommended this, I missed it. What I mostly saw was "nerf MN Assault. Don't touch my Gal Assault".

And you guys wonder why I'm argumentative and confrontational.

Correct me where I'm wrong:

Movement
* Nerf MN Assault base movement speed.
* Buff Logi base movement speed.
* Buff Commando base movement speed.

HP Potential
* Nerf Assault base HP.
* Buff Commando slot count.

So it's our fault that you throw fits and get yourself ignored. Got it.

But now that your head is clear ... may I ask?

Ask what?

In your response to Cross, you say "take the cautious approach" ... please elaborate. What do you have in mind?

I dunno

I mean why is high HP and high mobility/speed a problem?

Added Worksheet: Spero's Concept

> Google Doc <

In essence, an inversion of Ripley Riley's vision (Assaults sprinting from cover to cover or from spawn to frontline). Rather, Assaults maintain current movement speeds and a decreased sprint multiplier. Logis maintain current movement speeds and an increased sprint multiplier.

Friendly Reminder: Figures prepared for spitballing purposes only.

Added "Not Aeon's Idea":
> Google Doc <

* Decrease Assault base HP by 25%
* Decrease MN Assault base movement from 5.3 to 5.2
* Set Logi base movement / sprint = Assault base movement / sprint

Spitballing, of course. What do you think?

Adipem, I have to commend you on all the work you're doing making these models for each argument. Thank you.

Concerning the most recent edition, what about a bricked out version? 25% less HP on base stats is only so much. In the end if we still have break-dancing assaults that have 60 less eHP it will all be for nothing.

Ah. That. Sorry, only read the first part of your post.

I dunno, #stuffI'vealreadysaid. Like, buffing Commandos/Logis first and seeing how that works before nerfing Assaults.

Tweaked the Idea above to better fit the curve ...

* Assault Base HP: -25%
* MN Assault Base Movement: 5.30 ---> 5.00 (-5.7%)
* GA Assault Base Movement: 5.00 ---> 4.85 (-3%)
* CA Assault Base Movement: 5.00 ---> 4.85 (-3%)
* AM Assault Base Movement: 4.80 ---> 4.70 (-2.1%)
* MN Logi Base Movement: 5.00 ---> 5.20 (+4%)
* GA Logi Base Movement: 4.70 ---> 5.00 (+6.4%)
* CA Logi Base Movement: 4.70 ---> 5.00 (+6.4%)
* AM Logi Base Movement: 4.55 ---> 4.80 (+5.5%)
* No changes to Sprint Multipliers

Assumptions
Armor/Shield Regen: Assault > Logi > Scout
Stamina Pool: Scout > Assault > Logi
Stamina Regen: Scout > Assault > Logi

Thoughts?

As I've said every time it comes up the only "skin in the game" I have is that the ratio itself be maintained as a game wide foundation (or if a case is solidly built against it that the ratio be abandoned as a game wide thing when it comes to balancing roles, mods, races et al).

I have no stake whatsoever in what those ratios are or which role falls where within them so long as the ratios are applied universally and equally. Without a universal and equal application of foundational vision (be it this method or another) that applies to all roles rather than cherry picks a few things, balance becomes either a bad zero sum game or a crapshoot and we stay in the same rut we've been in for years.

To get more specific in reference to one of your prior posts, if speed, especially even a single metric of speed (be that strafe/move, sprint, or other) is enough to outweigh dps potential and raw HP then that to me screams that there is a large and fundamental problem. In the context of the ratio method, if speed really is this huge of a factor then the amount of eHP set to counter balance it needs to be scaled up accordingly until it is no longer meaningless and dismissible and the same ratio - whatever that may be - needs to be applied to all roles.

Make heavies fly like hot air balloons, scouts sparkle like unicorns, assaults have 1k HP per 1m of sprint speed, and logi slower than commandos for all I care, so long as there is a solid and universally applied method so that we have a context to actually and finally get some balance build rather than just the latest iteration of "king of the hill" FotM chasing.
Having one role/fit be "the thing" is bad balance it doesn't matter if that's the Cal Logi, the Amarr Sent, the Gal Scout, or the Min Assault. One role, or even worse one racial sub role, or still worse one fit type, being "the thing" is bad balance and always needs to die in fire. And without a consistent universal method it is harder to see that coming, takes longer to see it when it's present, and is an impediment to finding an effective solution that isn't just "nerf it into the ground" which is IMO never the ideal way to redress something being OP.

If the major concern here is "don't touch any assault numbers except maybe the min assault" then sure fine, touch none of them and simply balance the stats on all the other suits around the assault baseline, doesn't bother me in the least, just maintain a consistent and even handed approach game wide, because failing to do that is quite simply failing the health and quality of the game. Lack of consistent vision is a large part of what got us into this mess as we've both pointed out more than once, we've had years of it, time to give up on half measures and special cases, we need a consistent method or we're not going to get out of the messes we've been dealing with.

The entire balancing act that exists, that is the product of all the balance/rebalance/nerf/buff of the last several years, which is pretty damn close to being done

Stuff