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Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
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Posted - 2015.05.28 17:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Alright, I see a lot of Bullshit backwards logic in here and I'm about to set this straight because a lot of you guy's have your heads so buried in spreadsheets that you need a good slap across the face once in a while to wake you the hell up.
First off, speed is the absolute most essential component of gunplay in this game. It allows one to dodge bullets, find cover and out maneuver the enemy. I have yet to see a single good reason why it is that assault speed is being stripped down while everything around it is being buffed. The assault suit is popular because it most closely reflects the playstyle of many other FPS games and actually works now. It's a suit that requires versatility and durability. I see no reason not to buff the other suits, but double nerfing assault suits by taking their speed and buffing the suits closest to their performance parameters is mindbogglingly shortsighted.
Secondly, these changes put assault suits movement speed down to the speed of a commando (except for one that barely out paces them). So the only thing that the assault has over the commando now would be.... Hitbox and grenade slot? And slightly better regen stats? Commandos are slow because their abilities are hugely strong. Assault abilities suck by comparison, which is why they have small bonuses over them in stats with a decent amount more speed. With assaults getting a speed cut you are essential pushing people to be slayer scouts, bricked logis and speed tanked commandoes. All of which is to fill the void of the assault class you just obliterated. People will still want to play the exact same role, but they will need to pick a different suit for it. What is the point in that? Why would that be necessary? How does that benefit the game in the slightest?
Next, what's with this idea that these changes will 'fix the imbalance of suits'? I'm sorry, but this is totally failed logic. You want slayers to run a slayer suit. That's the assault suit. What you're saying is 'if we nerfs the slayer suit and buff the others, people will want to try other roles'. What you are doing however is forcing slayers to look into ways to adapt other suits to fill the void left by the nerfs on the slayer suit. People aren't going to change their preferred way of playing the game just because you nerf their suit. A slayer isn't going to say 'oh, you nerfs mah slayer suits, I mights justs plays a medic now'. He or she is simply going to look for the next best way to play the game the way they wish to play. Which means using other suits for the same role, which makes this argument utterly ridiculous. You are trying to change how people want to play, but all your doing is forcing people to go out of their way to find other ways to do it.
And as for this
Adipem Nothi wrote:
A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies.
That curve is not going to work right just because it makes a pretty pattern on a chart and there are a lot more factors involved with it that hp and speed. Logi suits definitely need a buff, hell I wouldn't have issues with them having close to the same health AND speed as assaults, but the reason they need to be CLOSE and not HIGHER is that they have the edge on scanning, equipment and hacking speeds. They are a more specialized role and aren't supposed to have the combat efficacy of an assault, however by having more speed and the assault having less you pretty much give them an even combat role. You force assaults to rely on bricking since they no longer have the speed to strafe effectively (without a kb/m anyway) and remove gungame almost entirely from their role. What is the point in that? The boat left and I wasn't on the ******* boat, can someone explain the logic of that to me please? You (Ratatti) complain about assaults brick tanking, then you force them into a situation where their only real option is to brick tank? Really? REALLY? And that makes sense to you? *nuclearfacepalm*
In short, speed > eHp and giving logi suits this much more speed than assaults gives them at least as much combat efficacy as the freshly nerfed assault suits while doing nothing to fix the power balance shift for scouts who's speed+hitbox+cloaks+scans+damps+double equipment+regen rates+etc+etc+etc will also be filling the power vacuum left behind by the slayer suit no longer doing it's job.
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Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
CeeJ Mantis wrote:Mini-rant here:
Nobody seems to like commandos, but givw the assault the commando's bonuses and weapon selection, and people seem all ln board.
2. This assault pity about how the class with the highest kills/spawn is going to be hit so hard by this small adjustment because their assault wont be the second fastest, and have more hp than a commando, hits similarly hard as a commando, and gets a bonus to weapon performance (cal is a notable exception), and has more slots than most suits in the game so you can make it do whatever you want is so hard. Seriously, the suit is not so bad if yoi are all using it, and performing well with it.
3. all this talk of compact nanohives on their new "slayer-logi" proposal fits, and nobody wants to fit a nanite injector?
In reverse order. The nanite injector is more pg/cpu, the slayer fit focuses on maximizing survivability and self sufficiency. They aren't the second fastest suit in the game when wearing enough eHp to outdo the commando eHp, and likewise don't top commando eHp when they are wearing little enough eHp to be the second fastest suit in the game. It's called versatility, and is (or was) what the suit was all about which is the reason for the slot layout as well. And as for your first point... I don't know whether to laugh or give you a deadeyed stare. Assault players want to be effective at their role, slaying. we don't want to steal the commandos abilities, we want to be effective at the role we picked up the suits for to begin with. If I wanted to be a medic, I'd be a logi. If I wanted to play point defense, I'd be a heavy. If I wanted to be a shock trooper I'd be a commando. If I wanted to be the stealthy hacker/assassin, I'd be a scout. I play assault because I enjoy running and gunning, and half of that playstyle is ******* RUNNING.
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Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:[Why do you need to nerf the assaults?
A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies. You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done. I donGÇÖt care about your speed curve, I care about the roles in this game and their interaction with each other. Gimping the assault just so it fits on your pretty graph is not a good enough reason to nerf it. Your question has been answered a dozen times; I'll try to answer it again ... differently. No two factors influence survivability by greater degree than Speed and HP. I think we can all agree on this point. A system which enforces a tradeoff between these two factors will be more balanced than a system which does not.
Except for hitbox. And dps, which granted is an offensive survivability state, but a survivability stat all the same. eHp isn't the only thing that makes an assault effective. It's mainly speed and dps with a moderate emphasis on eHp. What made scouts effective before? Speed, hitbox and scans. What made logis effective in the killerbee days? Speed, eHp and repping hives. What's the common denominator? Speed. Why? Because taking no damage is better than having more damage to take.
When assaults can no longer strafe effectively not only scouts but heavies will gain a distinct advantage over them as well as logis... Rattati wants this to be the last rebalance on suits for a while so I fear things will be left as is. Assaults will be a thing of the past, no matter how much people claim it won't be so. As soon as they are incapable of avoiding fire from scouts, logis, commandos and heavies they will change to other suits and that is not the goal.
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Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
In short, frustrated or not, having a cohesive game design that allows for fundamental balance to finally replace the back and forth we've dealt with for years trumps any particular current effects those changes have on you, me, or any specific sub-facet of the game.
0.02 ISK
Easy to say. Harder to live with. Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:-I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. How can anyone say this with the massive hit detection issues currently in game ?! Again. Mobility is king in CQC. All the EHP in the world won't matter if they can hit you but you can't hit them. Easy or hard it's is an objective reality and we either live with that or live with continued imbalance until the servers burn out. I have yet to see any evidence which indicates there is a viable long term third option.
The third option is obvious. Buff the other stuff and take the balance changes slow. Make your buffs, gather data and move on from there. It's hardly a massive operation to tweak a couple numbers later after gathering data.
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Baal Omniscient
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:Adipem Notthi wrote:
A Speed / HP curve cannot exist without tuning Assault HP or Assault Speed. If Assault HP potential were dramatically reduced, they'd have a far tougher time assaulting positions defended by Heavies.
You didn't answer my (main) question or address any of my points, in this post or the one before. Well done. I donGÇÖt care about your speed curve, I care about the roles in this game and their interaction with each other. Gimping the assault just so it fits on your pretty graph is not a good enough reason to nerf it. Your question has been answered a dozen times; I'll try to answer it again ... differently. No two factors influence survivability by greater degree than Speed and HP. I think we can all agree on this point. A system which enforces a tradeoff between these two factors will be more balanced than a system which does not. Except for hitbox. If hitbox size were a bigger survivability factor than speed or HP, then Scout and Light Frame kill/spawn efficiency would be at the top of the pile rather than the bottom. Right?
Except for when they were, right? Oh, right, because even main survivability sources rely on underlying stats as well.... Where's my head at? And the heavies don't have an issue with getting headshot constantly with that huge head hitbox, do they? So glad you chimed in.
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Baal Omniscient
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Buff the other stuff .... If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite. In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve.
But eHp isn't on the table, it's speed. I wouldn't mind assaults having LOGI health if their speed remained. I'll say it again: Not taking damage trumps having more damage to take.
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Baal Omniscient
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Buff the other stuff .... If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite. In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve. But eHp isn't on the table, it's speed. I wouldn't mind assaults having LOGI health if their speed remained. I'll say it again: Not taking damage trumps having more damage to take. Establishing a proper baseline inverse ratio between eHP and speed is the purpose and point. The method for doing it is currently talking about tweaks to speed not HP but the goal is the proper ratio.
But balance in what way? Combat efficacy? Role fulfillment? The thing is that certain suits are expected to be good a certain things. Having speed and eHp all perfectly lined up in a chart looks nice but does not take into account all facets involved.
That said, I understand that no reasonable approach can take everything into account. The variables are far too diverse and dependant on relatively unpredictable human behavior on top of it. However the power balance isn't fixed by changing things drastically because you have a pretty chart where the dots line up in a pleasing pattern, it's done by making small changes in the direction that you think will help while gathering data as you go.
I understand the idea behind this, but the assault at it's most bare is a run and gun class. When you take the run out of it, you are basically making another heavy suit with a smaller hitbox.
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Baal Omniscient
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Posted - 2015.05.28 20:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Buff the other stuff .... If Assaults were held constant and all else balanced around them, then we'd have to buff Scout HP potential or Speed. This isn't a popular idea, and it shouldn't be. Buffing Scout movement or sprint speed would very likely cause hit detection issues. Buffing Scout HP (or adding to its slot count) could bring about another round of 1.8 Assault Lite. In my opinion, balancing Scouts around High Mobility, High HP Assaults would cause more problems than it would solve. But eHp isn't on the table, it's speed. I wouldn't mind assaults having LOGI health if their speed remained. I'll say it again: Not taking damage trumps having more damage to take. Then go back to bricktanking a Scout suit, thats the playstyle you're describing (speed > all for slaying) so must be what you'd normally be doing. NEXT IN LINE!!
Um. Learn how to read maybe? I've been assault since Chromosome and Minmatar assault since 1.0. Your logic is invalid. As is your reading ability. Painfully obvious if you glance at the sig AND know how to read.
Speed and small hitbox on scouts on top of Ewar was ridiculous and I fought it every day. Now that they are scannable, their eHp plays a bigger role than it did before but good scouts still do very well for themselves.
TL;DR: Your arguments, all of them, are invalid.
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Baal Omniscient
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Posted - 2015.05.28 20:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
hails8n wrote:
The only fast assault is the min assault. It was always supposed to border between being a scout and an assault.Just like amarr scouts border between being a scout and an assault. I think the real problem was when alll minmatar suits got an hp buff, the min assault was balanced to me back then at least after the slot layout increase. I'd rather have its hp nerfed over speed, because speed is what min assaults are all about, but when an 800 hp suit is running at you at 9 meters per sec, whats the point of owning a scout then. So id be debating on an hp Nerf.
Beat me to it, so...... This ^
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Baal Omniscient
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Posted - 2015.05.28 20:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Archduke Ferd1nand wrote:Rattati, I beg of you: Adjust eHP instead of speed for assault if they don't fit on the curve. They've needed an HP nerf for a while. Don't screw with their mobility though. That would be like giving the scrambler rifle ridiculous kick or something to balance it, instead of just nerfing the damage a tiny bit.
HP is the problem here, and I can personally promise that. They have so many slots that they can use kincats, is my opinion. I'm in support of the change, but tbh, kincats don't do much. Slower suits especially: increasing a slow movement speed by a percentage is barely an increase; whoever at CCP is making these prefit-suits needs to realize that, and stop trying to put kincats on commandos. It raises their sprint speed by like, .3
I'm not in support of the change, but I agree with your point. if kincats gave a flat mps increase then I could possibly agree with that Ratatti's point, but the slower you make the suit, the less relevant kincats become.
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Baal Omniscient
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Posted - 2015.05.28 20:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:
Then go back to bricktanking a Scout suit, thats the playstyle you're describing (speed > all for slaying) so must be what you'd normally be doing.
NEXT IN LINE!!
Um. Learn how to read maybe? I've been assault since Chromosome and Minmatar assault since 1.0. Your logic is invalid. As is your reading ability. Painfully obvious if you glance at the sig AND know how to read. Speed and small hitbox on scouts on top of Ewar was ridiculous and I fought it every day. Now that they are scannable, their eHp plays a bigger role than it did before but good scouts still do very well for themselves. TL;DR: Your arguments, all of them, are invalid. You prefer speed over hp. Go get a Scout. ^Read THAT.
Your frothing at the mouth quirks are amusing, but don't really change anything from what has already been said. And I've got too much class to be trotting around in a skinsuit.
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Baal Omniscient
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Posted - 2015.05.28 21:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:hails8n wrote:
The only fast assault is the min assault. It was always supposed to border between being a scout and an assault.Just like amarr scouts border between being a scout and an assault. I think the real problem was when alll minmatar suits got an hp buff, the min assault was balanced to me back then at least after the slot layout increase. I'd rather have its hp nerfed over speed, because speed is what min assaults are all about, but when an 800 hp suit is running at you at 9 meters per sec, whats the point of owning a scout then. So id be debating on an hp Nerf.
Beat me to it, so...... This ^ Min Assault is the fastest assault but it isn't the only fast assault. Click back a few pages for a 900 HP, 9 m/s GalAssault loadout. If we deleted MInAssaults, these would be the next best high-speed, high-hp units.
High speed high hp suicide suits don't really matter when you are talking about survivability. Sure it can run 9m/sec for a bout few seconds, then wait twice as long to run again. If damaged at any point, waiting almost 12 seconds for shields to start coming back at measly 20 HP/sec is laughable. Not to mention that armour repair... Why even add plates if it takes you 3.5 MINUTES to get back? The only good thing about this suit is that if you manage your stamina properly, don't get scanned and manage to get close, your suit has a shotgun bonus. Beyond that though this is a suicide suit. Slayer suits are self sustaining and built around a playstyle the suit itself is made for and that suit is a blatant attempt at showing off certain stats possible while ignoring it's glaring failures. It's easily scanned, even passively, it's got not got nearly enough stamina or stamina recovery to accentuate it's speed (which is why the Minmatar suit works so well) and it has no means of properly healing it's health in a meaningful way.
So in short, your example is sorely lacking. You show it's possible to have a decent speed with ok eHp, but you also show at the same time how bad you are at fitting suits. And I don't mean that mockingly, I sincerely mean that it would take intentional effort to make a suit less survivable than this.
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Baal Omniscient
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Posted - 2015.05.28 22:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:
But balance in what way?
CCP Rattati wrote:The designs need to make sense, intuitively.
In order of priority, imagine a pyramid
Slot progression needs to make sense, within roles and between roles
PG/CPU capacity as they relate to slots and their layout
HP and Speed are inverse, that's just physics and again intuitive
These 3 principles form the foundation for Dropsuits. While they don't make sense, all the small things on top don't really matter. That's why I am not tackling role bonuses, because the foundation is cracked and not worth building on.
CCP Rattati wrote:
The rules of thumb as applied to the Medium class now:
Mobility (stamina pool and recovery)
CA/GA = normal
Amarr= 5% lower
Minmatar = 5% higher
Sprint
Basic = normal = 1.4x
Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x
Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x
eHP
Basic = normal
Logistics = lower
Assault = higher
Speed
Basic = normal
Logistics = higher
Assault = lower
Or if one wishes to be over focused on purely the logi assault contrast CCP Rattati wrote:
Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now.
But the simple goal is that things make sense game wide, one method for all roles and when it comes to survivability that everyone has enough of it to preform their roles rather than be "chum" for the "sharks" to feed off of without concern.
I'm not saying that there is nothing valid about this argument, in fact I have already stated that logi suits SHOULD have a speed boost. In fact I would have no issues with them having better tank and slightly less speed than assaults, or vise versa, but dropping assault speed isn't going to do anything apart from marginalizing the suit all over again. You can have a curve and not seperate them by so much. You can plop logi suits between assaults and scouts on your chart without sliding the assault down the scale. Strafe speed is a necessity for a combat oriented suit and you don't get much more combat oriented than what was always purported to be the 'jack of all trades' frontlines suit. I've seen the argument before from the other side of the fence, the 'balance everything around my suit' argument and that is not what I'm going for here. What I'm saying is that the gunplay mechanics in this game require strafing ability and the assault is where it needs to be in this area already. Sprint speed is an open topic, but for combat efficacy it's strafe speed needs to remain as it is or it will simply become a cover-to-cover fighter for everyone except kb/m users. This may not be an issue for Ratatti since he is one, but for the vast majority of players that I feel justified in assuming use ds3 input, this is a drastic change that makes a world of difference.
If logi suits need to have more maneuverability and less tank than assaults I can understand that. Swap stamina models with assaults and logi suits and plop them equal or above assault suits on your chart. Or put their walk speed below assaults and their sprint above. I can see the merit of having a baseline means of scaling speed and eHp, but I simply don't see how it is important to keep a speed teir looking pretty on a chart when the chart itself has no direct correlation to balanced gunplay for combat classes and there is no evidence to suggest that it has one.
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Baal Omniscient
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Posted - 2015.05.28 22:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:hails8n wrote:
The only fast assault is the min assault. It was always supposed to border between being a scout and an assault.Just like amarr scouts border between being a scout and an assault. I think the real problem was when alll minmatar suits got an hp buff, the min assault was balanced to me back then at least after the slot layout increase. I'd rather have its hp nerfed over speed, because speed is what min assaults are all about, but when an 800 hp suit is running at you at 9 meters per sec, whats the point of owning a scout then. So id be debating on an hp Nerf.
Beat me to it, so...... This ^ Min Assault is the fastest assault but it isn't the only fast assault. Click back a few pages for a 900 HP, 9 m/s GalAssault loadout. If we deleted MInAssaults, these would be the next best high-speed, high-hp units. High speed high hp suicide suits don't really matter when you are talking about survivability. Sure it can run 9m/sec for a bout few seconds, then wait twice as long to run again. If damaged at any point, waiting almost 12 seconds for shields to start coming back at measly 20 HP/sec is laughable. Not to mention that armour repair... Why even add plates if it takes you 3.5 MINUTES to get back? The only good thing about this suit is that if you manage your stamina properly, don't get scanned and manage to get close, your suit has a shotgun bonus. Beyond that though this is a suicide suit. Slayer suits are self sustaining and built around a playstyle the suit itself is made for and that suit is a blatant attempt at showing off certain stats possible while ignoring it's glaring failures. It's easily scanned, even passively, it's got not got nearly enough stamina or stamina recovery to accentuate it's speed (which is why the Minmatar suit works so well) and it has no means of properly healing it's health in a meaningful way. So in short, your example is sorely lacking. You show it's possible to have a decent speed with ok eHp, but you also show at the same time how bad you are at fitting suits. And I don't mean that mockingly, I sincerely mean that it would take intentional effort to make a suit less survivable than this. 9 m/s is decent speed? 900 HP is "ok" HP?
When you have no hp recovery options, , barely any stamina, pathetic stamina recovery, no ammo options and barely a medium range option on a shotty fit? Yes.
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Baal Omniscient
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Posted - 2015.05.28 22:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:"I'm going to switch to logi because it will be a better slayer." -random tryhard and Aeon Amadi wrote:-I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at. Translation: I am going to use whichever suit has the higher base movement speed because the hit detection evasion ability in DUST due to poor hit detection is a crutch I cannot live without! Why if all the plebians can actually HIT me consistently my precious KD rating might suffer badly! Here's a hint kids, Strafe breaking hit detection is very real. i demonstrated the technique to cross, did it to him in a minassault, a galassault, calassault and a galmando, and walked him through how to replicate it. He succeeded. I used it to rip the crap out of Cat Merc, who is arguably a lot better at gun game than I am. The strafe speed thing is a hit detection exploit, deliberate abuse of unintended behavior in game design to gain an unfair advantage. it is especially effective for people with high latency, allowing them to consistently flush the ability to hit them properly. I cannot use the strafe exploit because I use the M/KB, because the wiggle dance is DEPENDENT upon Aim Assist, which allows reticle magnetism to briefly attach to the target and grant you a precious second of firing time on target with each pass, if you time it and fire in bursts, you can literally appear as a gun-game god among the masses. M/KB players cannot enjoy aim assist, it is excluded from our control scheme. Therefore, people who wiggle are vastly more effective against so-called "mouse cheaters." But by all means, blame the controls, claim that strafing isn't broken when it can verifiably be proven broken. Any asshat who bothers to follow my helpful newbie guide will rapidly figure out how to do the exact same thing. So please, go on, keep telling everyone that juking back and forth like an epileptic is a measurement of skill. Keep sitting on that crutch of wierdly-behaving netcode and hit detection and say exploiting it takes skill. By all means. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Fixing hit detection and implementation of a system that takes weight into account when changing directions is an absolute must, but that doesn't excuse these changes. I would take the former over any changes that could possibly be made to the game, but pushing an entire class into brick tanking because some people do douchey stuff doesn't really fix anything, it just makes them do douchey stuff in other suits.
Alert me when there's an announcement about weight being added, I'll be all over it.
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Posted - 2015.05.28 23:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:
The chart itself AFAIK is for illustrative purposes, and I certainly cannot comment on it's details as I did not create it nor have I see specific numbers beyond what it present in the OP, but like I say it's not the chart or the specific numbers I'm invested in or advocating, my sole 'skin in the game' here is to support a rational method be foundationally applied to every role equally.
0.02 ISK
I can understand that, but from what I've seen over all of the balance changes since Replication (and you were there too) oversimplification of the process only creates more issues. You have speed running inversely to eHp in this chart. However sprint speed is also effected by stamina and stamina recovery and is a completely separate matter from walking, strafing and backpedaling speed. Further complicating the matter is the eHp stats. But you know all of this, I don't need to lecture you on the details as you know all of them as well as anybody. My point being that if this is to be a foundation on which to build upon, you have to build the whole foundation and not leave out the support structures or the whole thing will collapse. If the goal is to completely rework the way every suit functions based on this model, be it in big ways or small ways, you have to build the whole model before you hamhandedly start slapping suits into their position on the chart.
I'm saying 'you' a lot but I don't mean you specifically, I know that you aren't the one doing this. But I'm typing on my phone and my thoughts flow more freely in this format.
I hope that if by some miracle they take these thoughts seriously, they also don't fall into the trap of keeping things inverse. Just because one suit at one end has high regen for instance, the opposite end doesn't necessarily have to have the worst. And some things can peak in the middle of the chart and drop on the edges. It's a case by case situation depending on the specific role and a proper balance is more important than a nice visual.
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Posted - 2015.05.29 00:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I was wrong, I got distracted by shinies. Will post more of these as I find them here and there. Heimdallr69 wrote:Already have my slayer logi fit made, just waiting for that speed buff..you obviously didn't pay attention to the part where logis will be faster than assaults..who needs a sidearm? Now I can have links and scanners (Name Redacted) in Skype chat wrote:All I know is that every slayer playing in game for the past 48hours that I've been in squad with, is deciding what logi suit they are about to exploit the **** out of. (Name Redacted) in Skype chat wrote:I'll be able to go 30-0 as a logi again with no problems but thats not what you want to see out of logistics Yup, dat strafe speed seems to be the common factor here. The words "logis are faster than assaults" and "not wanting to lose strafe speeds" The evidence is mounting that the tryhards are all more concerned with loss of wiggle efficiency than they are about anything else! More evidence to come, and I'm sure it will be (not) shocking! I've never heard anyone saying "golly I sure am glad I could get from one hack point to another in this new codebreaker logi I'm building!" That should be the first clue that something is up. NOW I'm going to bed.
I've played this game for as long as almost anyone you'll find in these forums and I've never been able to do this wiggle dance everyone speaks of. I don't get it. I've logged in and sat in the red line trying to figure it out and have never (as far as I know) pulled it off. I'm not saying that you are mistaken, I trust your word on it, but I for one at least don't want to lose my strafe speed BECAUSE of the wiggle dancers. I already have enough trouble trying to hit them, smacking down my strafe speed is just making me an easier target for them. I know the difference between wiggle dancers and kb/m strafers and both are almost equally irritating, but the dancers take the cake. I don't see punishing people like me doing anything to stop them.
If I get internet some time before the changes are implemented I'll happily drop in so it can be explained to me, but once these changes are put in place I seriously doubt that I'll be playing. I have one playstyle that I enjoy and I shouldn't have to be a medic or a skinsuit wearer to play a role kind of close to it.
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Posted - 2015.05.29 03:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:True Adamance wrote:Heimdallr69 wrote:I ran scouts until mordu's then I ran nothing but assaults except the time I broke gal logi...call me a tryhard all you want I've been a loyal assault for like 2 years..yeah it's time for me to have some fun and break these suits...I've dealt with assaults being UP and I refuse to go through it again =ƒÿê You are a tryhard......but you have the gun game to back up your assertions....so pretty much anyone who claims you are a bad player has to remember that you ran Carthums on a Caldari Assault back when both really sucked. You remember that? =ƒÿâ
I remember that. I also remember ReFlex running a Carthum/shotty combo on a scout back in Codex when all three sucked. That dude was crazy good.
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Posted - 2015.05.30 11:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
Every single post telling rattati no has been the most thinly veiled cover for self interest from people who want their top fit to remain the top fit AT ALL COSTS
I would just like to state for the record that I've had no internet for nearly two months and even if I manage to get it back some time in the next few weeks I have very little interest in playing Dust again. My interest in this discussion is centered around fixing the game to the point where it's actually worth playing again.
And I am against the assault nerf.
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