But balance in what way?

The designs need to make sense, intuitively.

In order of priority, imagine a pyramid
Slot progression needs to make sense, within roles and between roles
PG/CPU capacity as they relate to slots and their layout
HP and Speed are inverse, that's just physics and again intuitive


These 3 principles form the foundation for Dropsuits. While they don't make sense, all the small things on top don't really matter. That's why I am not tackling role bonuses, because the foundation is cracked and not worth building on.

The rules of thumb as applied to the Medium class now:

Mobility (stamina pool and recovery)
CA/GA = normal
Amarr= 5% lower
Minmatar = 5% higher

Sprint
Basic = normal = 1.4x
Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x
Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x

eHP
Basic = normal
Logistics = lower
Assault = higher

Speed
Basic = normal
Logistics = higher
Assault = lower

Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now.

9 m/s is decent speed?
900 HP is "ok" HP?

And now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Give CalLogi the sidearm.

Buff the speeds, and most of the rest of the base stats.

Don't swap for other existing, end of the day logis are still combat gimped relative to ALL other combat frames by virtue of (even after buffs) still significantly lower hp, no weapon bonuses and fitting limits.

If theres an issue with Assault bonuses and their utility handle that like it is- a separate issue .

End point is EVERY other frame has received a healthy round of buffing to keep pace with the last year and a half of meta-shifts except Logis. We got armor regen returned, sort of, but otherwise we're still living the penalties of an unrepeatable era. We need some small buffing tweaks and thats it. Small. But we need buffing.

Mini-rant here:
1. Nobody seems to like commandos, but give the assault the commando's bonuses and weapon selection, and people seem all on board
2. This assault pity about how the class with the highest kills/spawn is going to be hit so hard by this small adjustment because their assault wont be the second fastest, and have more hp than a commando, hits similarly hard as a commando, and gets a bonus to weapon performance (cal is a notable exception), and has more slots than most suits in the game so you can make it do whatever you want is so hard. Seriously, the suit is not so bad if yoi are all using it, and performing well with it.
3. all this talk of compact nanohives on their new "slayer-logi" proposal fits, and nobody wants to fit a nanite injector? Compacts use the same fitting as srandard hives now. 3 nanohives on a fit, and noboy wants to fit an injector when you have 4 slots?! Does it need a buff? Can everyone carry a basic one for free? Can we use it to siphon health/ammo from our enemies?
/Rant

Aeon has gone on a 20 page rant because his crutch with 100 000 purchases every day is going to be altered slightly so it's not as strong as it currently is! If he's not arbitrarily the best because reasons things are bullshit and need to not change ever. I mean assaults are always supposed to be the best option for everything ever, and how dare the commando have a damage bonus and weapon versatility.

Or if one wishes to be over focused on purely the logi assault contrast


But the simple goal is that things make sense game wide, one method for all roles and when it comes to survivability that everyone has enough of it to preform their roles rather than be "chum" for the "sharks" to feed off of without concern.

I think ratitati needs to do what he had in mind with balancing speed vrs HP and everyone just needs to shut up and take it. It needs to be done and should have been done from the beginning.

You guys are as bad as the U.S. Congress... You can't agree on anything, there's always someone crying for special consideration for his "party" and claiming the other guys getting the better deal, another guy derailing the topic with his unrelated concerns, another over complicating it trying to fix to many things at once, and then you have the endless pissing contests in the middle of a serious "discussion".

We need a proper foundation, grounding principles with which to balance off of and without these we get inconsistencies such as the old amarr and gal sentinel slot counts. So many cried over it but it HAD to be done and we balanced around it. This is the same thing!

Let's set our foundation and build from there, balancing bonus' if need be.

My problem is that I had to repeatedly ask what the overall goal here was and I brought up points of contention that, I feel, weren't fully considered.

The question (that I feel were not answered) I asked were:
- How is the Gal Assault's role going to be made more viable so that it's intended design is being used competitively?
- What is going to put the weaker Assaults on par with their current performance whereas the problem Assaults are justifiably brought down?
- What unique role does the Assault play that justifies it's existence if other roles become more viable/overshadow it? What can the Assault do that no-one else can?
- Why make these changes all at once instead of bringing up the Logis/Commandos -AND THEN- bringing the Assaults down?
- What evidence do we have that supports that simultaneously buffing Logis/Commandos and nerfing Assaults in the same pass -ISN'T- going to drastically shift the meta spectrum in a way that is unhealthy?/quote]

Thanks for linking to your other post. Sometimes stating core concerns painfully simple is needed otherwise it can get overshadowed, which I think your cpm comment gave room for others to shift away from your base concern, it took up about half of your post. I also think your response to me was more concise than your original post, which is why I responded to you in my last post to give you a better platform to express your thoughts unabated. The very simple question of intra balance and inter balance with assaults along with role are extremely reasonable questions.

Obviously a lot of people value your opinion since everybody is responding to you (gets overwhelming though). I'd try to alter your arguments and presentation to hit very specific focal points. People wall up when they perceive hostility in an argument, even if it had a solid concern.

Things like

-If the speed/ehp regression line is the metric for killing power? Would that not diffuse killing power to every suit equally while other suits still have other unique attributes?

-Should the game be more role / niche focused with extremes rather than focusing on absolute power to prevent overlap?

-Base walking speed is more important that high ehp, then could not logis get the sprint modifier / ehp while assaults get the base speed since the ehp difference is still under the initial alpha damage?

Stating one of these alone is a huge topic in and of itself, which is why it has to be very simply stated or else the conversation just slips to another facet without actually going in depth. Also, I actually agree with you that assaults should be the majority suit in the game, that it should fit the killing role the best, with the others having extremely power niches.

I share a lot of your concerns because I recognize that a simple tic for tac is glossing over a lot without there being some synchronization. My post in 33, had a similar concern.

I feel that the curve is just a base more than a balance, and that there will definitely be a need to deviate from the curve once it gets enacted.

[quote=Aeon Amadi]
-I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at.

9 m/s is decent speed?
900 HP is "ok" HP?

Mini-rant here:

2. This assault pity about how the class with the highest kills/spawn is going to be hit so hard by this small adjustment because their assault wont be the second fastest, and have more hp than a commando, hits similarly hard as a commando, and gets a bonus to weapon performance (cal is a notable exception), and has more slots than most suits in the game so you can make it do whatever you want is so hard. Seriously, the suit is not so bad if yoi are all using it, and performing well with it.

But the simple goal is that things make sense game wide, one method for all roles and when it comes to survivability that everyone has enough of it to preform their roles rather than be "chum" for the "sharks" to feed off of without concern.

-I don't want to live with lower strafe speed-. That's the entire premise here. I'll take an EHP hit but I like the movement speed where it's at.

"I'm going to switch to logi because it will be a better slayer." -random tryhard

and



Translation:

I am going to use whichever suit has the higher base movement speed because the hit detection evasion ability in DUST due to poor hit detection is a crutch I cannot live without! Why if all the plebians can actually HIT me consistently my precious KD rating might suffer badly!



Here's a hint kids, Strafe breaking hit detection is very real. i demonstrated the technique to cross, did it to him in a minassault, a galassault, calassault and a galmando, and walked him through how to replicate it. He succeeded. I used it to rip the crap out of Cat Merc, who is arguably a lot better at gun game than I am.

The strafe speed thing is a hit detection exploit, deliberate abuse of unintended behavior in game design to gain an unfair advantage. it is especially effective for people with high latency, allowing them to consistently flush the ability to hit them properly.

I cannot use the strafe exploit because I use the M/KB, because the wiggle dance is DEPENDENT upon Aim Assist, which allows reticle magnetism to briefly attach to the target and grant you a precious second of firing time on target with each pass, if you time it and fire in bursts, you can literally appear as a gun-game god among the masses.

M/KB players cannot enjoy aim assist, it is excluded from our control scheme. Therefore, people who wiggle are vastly more effective against so-called "mouse cheaters."

But by all means, blame the controls, claim that strafing isn't broken when it can verifiably be proven broken. Any asshat who bothers to follow my helpful newbie guide will rapidly figure out how to do the exact same thing.

So please, go on, keep telling everyone that juking back and forth like an epileptic is a measurement of skill. Keep sitting on that crutch of wierdly-behaving netcode and hit detection and say exploiting it takes skill. By all means.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

"I'm going to switch to logi because it will be a better slayer." -random tryhard

and



Translation:

I am going to use whichever suit has the higher base movement speed because the hit detection evasion ability in DUST due to poor hit detection is a crutch I cannot live without! Why if all the plebians can actually HIT me consistently my precious KD rating might suffer badly!



Here's a hint kids, Strafe breaking hit detection is very real. i demonstrated the technique to cross, did it to him in a minassault, a galassault, calassault and a galmando, and walked him through how to replicate it. He succeeded. I used it to rip the crap out of Cat Merc, who is arguably a lot better at gun game than I am.

The strafe speed thing is a hit detection exploit, deliberate abuse of unintended behavior in game design to gain an unfair advantage. it is especially effective for people with high latency, allowing them to consistently flush the ability to hit them properly.

I cannot use the strafe exploit because I use the M/KB, because the wiggle dance is DEPENDENT upon Aim Assist, which allows reticle magnetism to briefly attach to the target and grant you a precious second of firing time on target with each pass, if you time it and fire in bursts, you can literally appear as a gun-game god among the masses.

M/KB players cannot enjoy aim assist, it is excluded from our control scheme. Therefore, people who wiggle are vastly more effective against so-called "mouse cheaters."

But by all means, blame the controls, claim that strafing isn't broken when it can verifiably be proven broken. Any asshat who bothers to follow my helpful newbie guide will rapidly figure out how to do the exact same thing.

So please, go on, keep telling everyone that juking back and forth like an epileptic is a measurement of skill. Keep sitting on that crutch of wierdly-behaving netcode and hit detection and say exploiting it takes skill. By all means.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Fixing hit detection and implementation of a system that takes weight into account when changing directions is an absolute must, but that doesn't excuse these changes. I would take the former over any changes that could possibly be made to the game, but pushing an entire class into brick tanking because some people do douchey stuff doesn't really fix anything, it just makes them do douchey stuff in other suits.

Alert me when there's an announcement about weight being added, I'll be all over it.

The chart itself AFAIK is for illustrative purposes, and I certainly cannot comment on it's details as I did not create it nor have I see specific numbers beyond what it present in the OP, but like I say it's not the chart or the specific numbers I'm invested in or advocating, my sole 'skin in the game' here is to support a rational method be foundationally applied to every role equally.

0.02 ISK

Already have my slayer logi fit made, just waiting for that speed buff..you obviously didn't pay attention to the part where logis will be faster than assaults..who needs a sidearm? Now I can have links and scanners

All I know is that every slayer playing in game for the past 48hours that I've been in squad with, is deciding what logi suit they are about to exploit the **** out of.

I'll be able to go 30-0 as a logi again with no problems but thats not what you want to see out of logistics

I was wrong, I got distracted by shinies. Will post more of these as I find them here and there.









Yup, dat strafe speed seems to be the common factor here.

The words "logis are faster than assaults" and "not wanting to lose strafe speeds"

The evidence is mounting that the tryhards are all more concerned with loss of wiggle efficiency than they are about anything else!

More evidence to come, and I'm sure it will be (not) shocking!

I've never heard anyone saying "golly I sure am glad I could get from one hack point to another in this new codebreaker logi I'm building!"

That should be the first clue that something is up.

NOW I'm going to bed.

I ran scouts until mordu's then I ran nothing but assaults except the time I broke gal logi...call me a tryhard all you want I've been a loyal assault for like 2 years..yeah it's time for me to have some fun and break these suits...I've dealt with assaults being UP and I refuse to go through it again =ƒÿê

The ******* balance work is done .
Final buffset time and lets move to other issues already! ****!

This very thread seems to be just here to appease the bad players.

This assault speed nerf seems to be just here to appease the bad players.

I ran scouts until mordu's then I ran nothing but assaults except the time I broke gal logi...call me a tryhard all you want I've been a loyal assault for like 2 years..yeah it's time for me to have some fun and break these suits...I've dealt with assaults being UP and I refuse to go through it again =ƒÿê

You are a tryhard......but you have the gun game to back up your assertions....so pretty much anyone who claims you are a bad player has to remember that you ran Carthums on a Caldari Assault back when both really sucked.