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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 31 post(s)
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 892	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:28:00 - [1] - Quote In response to Tesfa: When thinking about slayer logis, don't forget assault's higher base hp (much more than back in slayer logi days), stamina and regen. Also don't forget that sidearms are both much better and much more important than they were in slayer logi days. I do think you have a point about slowing assaults down too much. Perhaps putting their speed below that of current logis is going a bit far in one go.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 894	Posted - 2015.05.27 14:49:00 - [2] - Quote The more I look at this, the more it seems a bit too much. I like idea in principle, but the assault suit speed nerf seems too much. Tone it down a bit and I think it would be fine. Whilst I admire and agree with the scientific approach, and it can often be very successful, the relationship between suit hp and speed has too many additional factors involved to come up with a very neat relationship curve. Bringing things closer to a logical relationship is good, but you can't adhere to it too strictly.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 894	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:43:00 - [3] - Quote I don't like the idea of increasing the logi equipment fitting bonus and reducing base cap. 25% is enough for a bonus. Any more and you are 1) being too draconian with fitting restrictions and 2) spoiling things for low sp characters, as you won't be able to fit a decent logi until you reach level 5. I just don't like it.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 895	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:18:00 - [4] - Quote Alternative assault bonus suggestions: Cal - reload plus spool reduction. Gal - increase the current dispersion reduction. To be honest, there's no reason why reducing assault speed can't balance the suit, it's just the speed probably shouldn't be reduced as much as proposed. Improving Cal and Gal assault bonuses is more about bringing racial balance to assaults.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 897	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:07:00 - [5] - Quote Speed is definately very important for a logi to perform the support role. So I totally disagree with all the "logi's don't need to be faster than their squad mates" people.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 903	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:36:00 - [6] - Quote TL/DR: No to changing sprint modifiers, instead give assaults a skill bonus to speed. I don't particularly like the idea of changing the sprint modifiers. Firstly, sprint speed is much more important, so the changes to the game will be minimal. More importantly, you would be adding an additional layer of complexity. I thought a major purpose for looking at dropsuit speeds was to inject some extra logic into things; make things more intuitive / easy to understand. Giving different suits different sprint modifiers is the opposite of simplifying things. Trying to both keep the proposed hp / speed curve, whilst simultaneously breaking it with sprint modifiers seems like cheating. Whose to say the hp/speed curve shouldn't be sprint speed vs hp? If I want to get from A to B I sprint. I don't know how you are going to get round the speed / hp problem. Every class has special abilities that make them worthwhile on the battlefield. Scouts have mobility and stealth (just about), logis have equipment support, commandos have dual light weapons, sentinels have heavy weapons and resistances, and Assault suit's special attribute is having both speed and hp. To fit the assault role you need to be both tough and fast. I would conclude from this that assault suits would naturally not fit on an hp - speed curve with other suits, they should be outliers by design / necessity. Currently, various suits trade hp or speed, along with regen, stamina, slots, bonuses, hitbox, and EWAR, for their other attributes. If you want a true hp / speed relationship, you would have to establish what all those trades are, the relative value of different attributes, and make a plot taking all these things into account. This doesn't really seem viable to me. How about I propose an alternative solution to the sprint modifiers? How about going with the proposed speed changes, keeping sprint modifiers equal between classes, and give assaults a bonus per level to movement speed (including sprint). This way you keep the intuitive curve, but you are also saying "look, assault's special ability is assaulting, which requires speed, here, have a bonus to it." This would give a much more easily understood way for assaults to break the hp/speed curve and maintain their special place on the battlefield: the slayers. You could then balance this bonus so that assaults are a bit slower than they are now, thus achieving improved overall balance. Downside is, not quite so good for newer players. To Aeon: Rattati posted dropsuit KDR showing assaults to have considerably better KDR than other suits. The market data shows that assault suit sales vastly outstrip other dropsuits. This all includes Gallente assaults. Just because Gal assaults have a slightly worse bonus compared to Amarr and Minmatar assaults, does not mean they should be exempt from assault balancing. Regarding balancing Min assaults specifically, I recommend either a) reducing stamina / stamina regen to make them more similar to other assaults. Or b) reducing hp to make them more like scouts, inline with the Minmatar tradition of having suits that blend with the lighter tier above them on the hp / speed curve.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 904	Posted - 2015.05.28 10:06:00 - [7] - Quote Another thought. A more accurate version of the brick fit plot would be to use 1/2 of slots as hp mods. Shields for Caldari and Minmatar, ferroscale for Amarr and Gallente light and medium, plate for Amarr and Gallente sentinels. This would give a more accurate picture of how things actually are in game.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 905	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:25:00 - [8] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: To Aeon: Rattati posted dropsuit KDR showing assaults to have considerably better KDR than other suits. The market data shows that assault suit sales vastly outstrip other dropsuits. This all includes Gallente assaults. Just because Gal assaults have a slightly worse bonus compared to Amarr and Minmatar assaults, does not mean they should be exempt from assault balancing. Regarding balancing Min assaults specifically, I recommend either a) reducing stamina / stamina regen to make them more similar to other assaults. Or b) reducing hp to make them more like scouts, inline with the Minmatar tradition of having suits that blend with the lighter tier above them on the hp / speed curve. Do you remember back in 1.7 where they buffed HAVs and then nerfed AV at the same time? Honest question. Nothing has ever been solved by buffing/nerfing at the same time. No, it's a bad idea to buff something and nerf it's counter. Assaults aren't a specific counter to logis so there isn't a problem.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 905	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:01:00 - [9] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I mean for real, it's like, yeah, Assaults are over-used and Logis/Commandos are under-used. Why is it 100% necessary to change all of them when a comparable buff to Logis/Commandos might just be all that's needed? What evidence do we have that supports that buffing Logis/Commandos and subsequently nerfing Assaults in the same pass -ISN'T- going to drastically shift the meta spectrum in a way that is unhealthy? We're going for this huge overarching change on the hopes and prayers that maybe it'll work with the added consequence of another six months dev time being spent toward balancing it all in the eventuality that it doesn't. Rather than the logical thing which would be to take it slow, do it in stages, and maybe find the balance on the way there. We're going -RIGHT BACK- to the Balance Pendulum where we make so many drastic changes that we overshoot our goal and have to dial it back and forth until it starts working. Which by that point we'd have come up with another "looks good on paper" proposal and go through the entire process again. The solution is clear and very simple: Buff the Logistics/Commandos. See how it works. If people start to transition from the Assaults to those classes than the nerf might not be entirely necessary. If it's doesn't, then we can -ABSOLUTELY- continue with the rest of the changes. I totally get what you are saying (although we've moved away from what you were originally saying about Gallente Assaults, that I was responding to). Which is why I asked Rattati not to implement the changes originally proposed as I thought they were too extreme. It doesn't look like you have much to worry about anyway, as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same, just nerf movement (kind of meaningless) and buff stamina. So barely a nerf at all. In principle though, all assault suits appear to be a little overpowered when compared with all other classes, not just logis and commandos. So buffing logis and commandos at the same time is irrelevant, as assaults will still be op when compared to sentinels and scouts.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 906	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:16:00 - [10] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: ... as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same . So the MN Assault will still sprint faster than the AM Scout? If we're sticking to the figures on Page 1, this overlap would not occur. MN Assault Base of 4.80 with a sprint multiplier of 1.5 yields sprint speed of 7.56 (less than AM Scout's 7.72). If not the figures on Page 1, what figures are we using? My understanding is we are going with figures on page 1, so yes, Min assaults would suffer a sprint speed reduction. I was thinking about assaults in general and forgot about this tweak. Specifically I was referring to Rattati's post stating that assault sprint speeds would remain the same as now, but I'm sure he meant apart from Min assaults, as he was referencing the page 1 proposal with the sprint modifier added.

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 908	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:23:00 - [11] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I'll take the movement speed over the sprint speed -ANY- day. Why am I not surprised. But I concede it's not a worthless stat, though I suspect the proposed reduction will have only moderate in game effect. Too slow and it's a problem, but this proposal is only a minor nerf. And may I just say, on the subject of incremental changes. I said a number of times, prior to the major assault buff, that adding a module slot at the same time as 100 base hp, was too much of a buff in one go. Seems I was right.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 908	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:29:00 - [12] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: ... as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same . So the MN Assault will still sprint faster than the AM Scout? If we're sticking to the figures on Page 1, this overlap would not occur. MN Assault Base of 4.80 with a sprint multiplier of 1.5 yields sprint speed of 7.56 (less than AM Scout's 7.72). If not the figures on Page 1, what figures are we using? My understanding is we are going with figures on page 1, so yes, Min assaults would suffer a sprint speed reduction. I was thinking about assaults in general and forgot about this tweak. Specifically I was referring to Rattati's post stating that assault sprint speeds would remain the same as now, but I'm sure he meant apart from Min assaults, as he was referencing the page 1 proposal with the sprint modifier added. Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x ^ This excerpt from his latest post has me confused as well; if I'm reading this correctly, it returns an altogether different set of numbers than those graphed on Page 1. And both of these number sets are different from the number set needed to maintain current sprint speeds at a 1.5 multiplier. :: tinkers with spreadsheet :: I was under the impression this just refers to the sprint modifier. This quote from Rattati: Medium (Logistics and Assault) Speed changes as in OP Sprint changes, Logis from 1.4 to 1.3 modifier, means they have the same sprint speed as they do now Assault from 1.4 to 1.5, means they retain current sprint I thought still stands, meaning sprint speeds won't change (except from Min assaults). I could be wrong. I haven't checked that page 1 assault speed x 1.5 = current sprint speed. Maybe the post you quoted changes things don't know.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 909	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:06:00 - [13] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: So it's a problem that I would prefer to have movement speed over sprint speed? Is that why you're mockingly posting rolley-eyed smileys? Prototype Gallente Assault (oh nooos he's talking about his playstyle, something he's familiar with instead of talking out of his ass about something he doesn't play) with x5 Complex Reactive Plates = 4.75m/s movement speed right now. After the nerf, that drops down to 4.37m/s That's right around the same movement speed as a Gallente Commando (which obviously is a pretty stark difference in mobility). interesting commando - assault comparison The eye roll was just because it was kind of funny that out of the two potential buffs, you much preferred the one you weren't getting. You do seem to have a slightly fatalistic outlook. Try to look on the bright side! It was a bit mean of me though, and I'm sure you are sincere, even though I disagree with you. By the way, I changed my assessment of the movement speed nerf from "meaningless" to a "minor nerf" and later "a nerf, but not a bad one" because I have taken on board what you are saying and you swayed my opinion a little. Interesting comparison with a Gallente Commando. I don't think things are as bad for assaults as you think though. The Commando will need to fit mostly regen to get reasonable armour regen. And whilst they have higher shields, the regen is worse, and they have a larger hitbox, and they have poorer stamina and stamina regen, and they have poorer EWAR stats. Mainly though I feel you are really undervaluing sprint speed. That said, reducing movement speed to near commando speeds is kind of slow, I'll give you that. Haven't checked the numbers, but I'll trust you. So I will further revise my assessment. Movements speed, other than sprint, will suffer a substantial nerf. I still don't think this will likely constitute a major nerf to the assault role overall, considering the fact that sprint speeds will be maintained. I still don't particularly like the idea of messing with sprint speed modifiers though.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 910	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:19:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: ... as the latest proposal from Rattati would leave assault sprint the same . So the MN Assault will still sprint faster than the AM Scout? If we're sticking to the figures on Page 1, this overlap would not occur. MN Assault Base of 4.80 with a sprint multiplier of 1.5 yields sprint speed of 7.56 (less than AM Scout's 7.72). If not the figures on Page 1, what figures are we using? My understanding is we are going with figures on page 1, so yes, Min assaults would suffer a sprint speed reduction. I was thinking about assaults in general and forgot about this tweak. Specifically I was referring to Rattati's post stating that assault sprint speeds would remain the same as now, but I'm sure he meant apart from Min assaults, as he was referencing the page 1 proposal with the sprint modifier added. Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x ^ This excerpt from his latest post has me confused as well; if I'm reading this correctly, it returns an altogether different set of numbers than those graphed on Page 1. And both of these number sets are different from the number set needed for Assaults to maintain current sprint speeds at a 1.5 multiplier. :: tinkers with spreadsheet :: Now I am home and practicing my guitar, wondering whether to brave Bloodborne again, or stay here and do more math. Don't spend too much time on the numbers until you have more data from me, I have taken things into account from here, and am pretty sure I will reduce assault speed much less, maybe 0.3 instead of 0.5 and also increase stamina and sprint modifier. It's all good guys, and I am trying to make a smart, robust and fair system out of the thing we have. Relax, enjoy the guitar, try not to rage playing Bloodborne. I'm just getting excited about all this! Thanks for taking our feedback into consideration.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 911	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:07:00 - [15] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: > Google Doc < This actually nerfs Logi sprint speed? Por que? As I understand it, it is a desired parameter to keep Assault sprint speed higher than Logi sprint speed. Let me see if I can tweak the sprint multiplier a 'bit ... Buff the proposed movement by .05 and put the multiplier at 1.4. Still slower sprint than Assault. You could even buff proposed Assault movement by .05 as well? How does it look now? How about reducing assault movement by 0.3 rather than 0.5, like Rattati said he was thinking of doing.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 911	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:21:00 - [16] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: So what's the bridge going to be between the Scout and the Assault after this? What if I want a suit that has mobility without as much of an EHP hit of a Scout and EHP without the mobility hit of the Assault? What am I supposed to run as the bridge point between the two..? Slayer-Logi? EDIT: Because if I have to, that's what I'm going to do. Stick kincats and cardiac regs on you assault, just like now. You'd have to live with lower strafe speed. What would be awesome, would be if Kincats also increase your movement speed, rather than just sprint speed.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 912	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:34:00 - [17] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: > Google Doc < How about reducing assault movement by 0.3 rather than 0.5, like Rattati said he was thinking of doing. Sheet added! Instances of overlap highlighted. The MN Assault is still a 'bit too fast ... ends up with higher sprint than present. Could dial back sprint from 1.5, but then GA/CA/AM Assault sprint speed would take a hit. Couple of issues. Why do all your sprint speeds have an extra 5% multiplier? I interpreted Rattati's latest comment to suggest +0.5 logi speed, - 3% assaults speed, not +/- 3%. Looking at the OP, Min assault speeds should be an equal amount higher than Amarr speeds are lower. So 4.9 rather than 5.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 912	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:40:00 - [18] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Why do all your sprint speeds have an extra 5% multiplier? I interpreted Rattati's latest comment to suggest +0.5 logi speed, - 0.3 assaults speed, not +/- 0.3. Looking at the OP, Min assault speeds should be an equal amount higher than Amarr speeds are lower. So 4.9 rather than 5. There's a 1% per level passive upgrade to sprint speed afford by the Biotics skill (or perhaps the KinCat skill ... it's been awhile don't recall offhand). I'll add a +0.5 Logi, -0.3 assault sheet. Ah! Forgot about that. Please add the Min assault speed difference correction from the OP as well
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 912	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:45:00 - [19] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Why do all your sprint speeds have an extra 5% multiplier? I interpreted Rattati's latest comment to suggest +0.5 logi speed, - 0.3 assaults speed, not +/- 0.3. Looking at the OP, Min assault speeds should be an equal amount higher than Amarr speeds are lower. So 4.9 rather than 5. There's a 1% per level passive upgrade to sprint speed afford by the Biotics skill (or perhaps the KinCat skill ... it's been awhile don't recall offhand). I'll add a +0.5 Logi, -0.3 assault sheet. I think I'm being an idiot! The OP has a logi speed buff of about 0.3 not 0.5. So you were right the first time. Sorry I doubted the spreadsheeting!
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 913	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:56:00 - [20] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Assault vs slayer logi You will have to replace that ferroscale plate on the logi for a cardiac regulator for a fair comparison. With the proposed changes you could fit a complex plate on the logi instead of a reactive and have similar movement speeds. The assault will still have more hp and stamina, and a sidearm. The logi will have lots of nice equipment. The assault will have much better sprint speed. I still think you'd be better off slaying in the assault.

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 917	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:14:00 - [21] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Why do all your sprint speeds have an extra 5% multiplier? I interpreted Rattati's latest comment to suggest +0.5 logi speed, - 0.3 assaults speed, not +/- 0.3. Looking at the OP, Min assault speeds should be an equal amount higher than Amarr speeds are lower. So 4.9 rather than 5. There's a 1% per level passive upgrade to sprint speed afford by the Biotics skill (or perhaps the KinCat skill ... it's been awhile don't recall offhand). I'll add a +0.5 Logi, -0.3 assault sheet. I think I'm being an idiot! The OP has a logi speed buff of about 0.3 not 0.5. So you were right the first time. Sorry I doubted the spreadsheeting! Added a sheet with Rattati's Graph values for easier side-by-side comparison. > Google Doc < Does it really matter if there's a bit of speed overlap? It's not an issue for me really, other factors should balance it. So, my understanding of where we are now, is the logi stats from the original graph, with a 1.3 sprint multiplier, and the assault stats from the +/- 0.3 tab, but with a Min assault base speed of 4.9.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 921	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:19:00 - [22] - Quote Pretty much all suit's primary role is killing, logis are the main exception. It's how they do it that differentiates them. I always felt that commandos slay by being slow, tough and powerful. Assaults slay by being fast. Scouts slay by being fast and stealthy, but weak defensively. So perhaps it would be best to get assaults into line with the speed / hp tradeoff, by reducing assault hp rather than speed, like Aeon suggests. Maybe even (shock/horror) a compromise between hp and speed nerfs? The trouble is, too little hp encourages brick tanking, as it makes hp mods proportionally more effective. Too little speed also encourages brick tanking, as it makes speed mods and regen less effective. The current state of assaults is great for varied module use. Should this be a problem, non-hp mods could be buffed. In response to concerns about nerfing assaults. It's not just that they are more common. That is ok and probably to be expected. It's that they are not only more common, but more effective too. I don't think theres much in it though. I'd hate to see them overnerfed.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 921	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:29:00 - [23] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Tweak Min Assault to 4.95 base and I think you have a bingo. Google Doc Tweaked! Looks pretty good. Personally, don't like that the MN Assault is a faster sprinter than the AM Scout, but your model looks good. Looks good. To doubters, Gallente assault movement speed would still be significantly quicker than a commando. Sprint speed would be the same as now, and plenty faster than a logi.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 923	Posted - 2015.05.29 10:35:00 - [24] - Quote Have you considered a small hp nerf plus a small speed nerf (smaller than proposed) as a compromise for getting assaults onto the hp/speed curve? Since there's lots of opposition to speed nerfs.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 926	Posted - 2015.05.29 16:55:00 - [25] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: CeeJ Mantis wrote: I think there is meret to giving assauots more sprint speed so that they can apply pressure more readily, but strafe speed is the main reason assaults have such a lead in kills/spawn over other suits. It is hard to strafe as a commando/sentinel because you simply aren't as fast. Super straify, 650eHP cal scouts also do this strategy, and high hp + speed means hard to kill suits. And whether or not hit detection is an issue, you do have people from all around the world with different quality internet connections playing together, and some people benefit from their lack of relative connection quality. Especially people who change position rapidly. Let us not forget that assaults suits have the highest kills/spawn, and their ubiquity on the battlefield is likely indicative of their performance. They have speed, and hp, so they can tank well, and twitch back and forth. There is a reason that this proposal was created in the first place. I urge any developers read this to not focus too much on feedback from players that want theor suits to be powerful, and try looking at the data. I urge the developers to not simply look at everything as bias because of the contradictory views that the forums have. 1) You either don't play the playstyle/specialization, and don't know what you're talking about 2) You do play the playstyle/specialization, and are bias There's no winning. It's not about wanting our suits to be powerful, we all want our suits be powerful, we just don't want to go -back- to not being viable. CeeJ is urging CCP to look at the data and not just people's opinions. Which strikes me as a very good idea.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 929	Posted - 2015.05.30 08:17:00 - [26] - Quote Thanks for the spreadsheets Adipem. Regarding "my" model, I wasn't stating what I personally think should happen, but what Rattati suggested he might do to tweak his original proposal, based on feedback. So really this an approximate Rattati's latest proposal. Though it wasn't formal, and was likely to change. Still, it's the latest word. Except I believe Min assault speeds are a little higher on the sheet than his design. If I was going to design a proposal, I'd go with this: Reduce Assault hp by 50 (half as much reduction as Aeon's tab). Reduce speed by about 0.3, which should get them onto the curve. Give assaults a bonus to movement speed, 1% per level. At level 5 this should give them speeds almost equal to what they have now. Increase logi and commando speeds as per Rattati's proposal. Speed and hp together is now the assault suit's defining speciality. They fit the curve, but are bonused to break it. Allowing them to be light weapon, frontal attack slayers, but unlike commandos, they rely on speed more than brute strength and high defence. Scouts will be faster, and logis will be almost as fast, but neither have the hp, fitting, or bonuses to beat assaults at frontal assault. Keep sprint and strafe multiplyers what they are now. Tweak stamina so it makes sense. Maybe tweak Min assault speed or hp a bit. The speed hp curve will be good. Assaults have a role defined by their bonus. Assaults as a whole will suffer a small nerf, which hopefully will balance them when compared to scouts and sentinels. (Though cloaks probably still need fixing for true balance).
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 929	Posted - 2015.05.30 10:08:00 - [27] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Why would you nerf assault speed and then bonus assault speed? Ratatti's suggestion was to fit assaults onto the curve, but buff their sprint modifier so they can still be fast. I don't like the idea of changing sprint modifiers as I think it's over complicated and not very transparent. Also, some people aren't happy with just having high sprint speed, they want high run speed aswell. So as an alternative I suggest giving assaults a speed bonus instead. Which would both be more transparent and maintain both good speed and sprint.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 934	Posted - 2015.06.01 09:42:00 - [28] - Quote There is another potential solution to nerfing assault speed/hp. Set the speed / hp curve (line) to run through current assault values and current sentinel value. Buff the hp / speed of other classes up to the line. Most likely resulting in buffing scout base hp, as hit detection doesn't like them being faster than they are now, and buffing commando movement, to stop them overlapping with sentinels. Now, this would obviously make scouts OP. So the next thing to do is normalise other stats and define gains and sacrifices, such as EWAR and slots. So, for example. Give all suits equal shield and armour regen, stamina, stamina regen, EWAR and module slots (maintaining variation between races). Now, trade scout mod slots for EWAR, stamina and the cloak / extra equipment slot. Trade logi sidearm and stamina for equipment. Keep assault and logi EWAR as it is now. Trade commando grenade, EWAR and mod slots for two light weapon slots. Trade sentinel EWAR, mod slots and stamina for heavy weapons. Keep current bonuses. Net result: All suits on hp / speed curve. Assaults stay the same. Scouts gain hp, loose regen. Commandos and logis gain speed and regen. Sentinels gain regen. Only potential issue I see, would be OP logis. Perhaps they could make another trade. Maybe regen.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 936	Posted - 2015.06.01 13:30:00 - [29] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Added Model: Varoth's 2nd Parameters: * Hold Assault and Heavy speed and hp constant. * Fit Logis, Scouts and Commandos to the curve. * Do not increase Scout speed. Note: Not sure whether or not you intended to alter slot count; please advise. Let me know if you'd like to see any other tweaks. My two cents: Ignoring all else, the first thing that comes to mind is that we're moving several units into what is likely wiggle's optimal bounds, the speed:hp ratio presently occupied by the MN Assault. Sigh, you have a point. Wiggle probably means the curve needs to be flatter. I'm thinking more and more, that back when Cal logis were FOTM in uprising 1.0, if CCP had just nerfed complex shield extenders instead of buffing armour etc, most of the balancing issues we've had to deal with would not have occurred.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 936	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:33:00 - [30] - Quote Defence is a function of hp multiplied by strafe speed and hitbox size. If you calculate ferro tanked hp, multiplied by strafe speed you get a approximation of each suit's overall defence. Unfortunately I don't have access to hitbox size, so we'll have to leave that out for now. What's interesting here is the the only suit with higher defence (ignoring hitbox) than the Min assault, is the Min sentinel. All other suits have lower defence. Taking hitbox into account would certainly push the sentinel below the assault.

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 937	Posted - 2015.06.01 18:18:00 - [31] - Quote I made my own spreadsheet! Dropsuit Defence This shows an approximation of dropsuit defence relative to the Gallente assault. The far right collumn has suits in order from least to most defensive. I have calculated typical Hp values by using 1/2 of total slots as shields or ferroscales, depending on tanking type. I have approximated hitbox size as 80% for scouts, 100% for mediums, and 120% for heavies. I have approximated sentinel overall damage resistance to be 10%. Defence has been calculated as being proportional to typical hp, resistance, strafe speed, and inversly proportional to hitbox size. It's actually not very insightful it turns out. Sentinels are the most defensive, and could be a lot more if tanked up with plates (looking at you Amarr sentinel). Next are assaults, who are quite a lot more defensive than commandos, logis and scout, who all trail behind. The gap between assaults and the rest (except sentinels), is quite revealing i suppose.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 954	Posted - 2015.06.06 22:25:00 - [32] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: What?!? Partial Logi buffing proposal has become an "OMGbutbutbutScouts" thread??? lol, saw this coming right around.... page 3. What the hell are you talking about? Try reading. Not to mention the fact that any balancing potentially effects all suits. Typical anti-scout bias rears it's ugly head again.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 955	Posted - 2015.06.07 01:39:00 - [33] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: What?!? Partial Logi buffing proposal has become an "OMGbutbutbutScouts" thread??? lol, saw this coming right around.... page 3. What the hell are you talking about? Try reading. Not to mention the fact that any balancing potentially effects all suits. Typical anti-scout bias rears it's ugly head again. LOL I'm not anti-scout or oblivious to balancing effects. I'm also just not oblivious (or silent) to how no matter what the topic once certain theorycrafrers become involved at the end of the day everything revolves around whats best for scouts. Learn to remember and comprehend. People were discussing how modifying strafe speeds for all suits would affect scouts. This was never proposed by Rattati and has nothing to do with buffing logis. Nobody is discussing how the proposed changes may affect scouts at all. You've just made that up in you head.

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