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SlayerLogis aren't coming back like you think, never were.


Question about that set of figures that does finally appear on page 17, are those cpu/pg values proposed the final values? Pre-skills values? And 10% fitting on eq, that is also in addition to existing logi bonuses, correct? Are eq load costs going to be modified at all? Are those eq bonuses going to be flat or racially varied? I've kept up on the logistics/support thread and recognize much of this stemming from there so definitley see the progress but the last 20 pages is resteering us into overall wash territory at risk of nerfs.

But eHp isn't on the table, it's speed. I wouldn't mind assaults having LOGI health if their speed remained. I'll say it again: Not taking damage trumps having more damage to take.

Except actual Caldari Logistics would PREFER a FOURTH EQUIPMENT slot rather than the 4th low slot or sidearm.

I have my Caldari Assault for the damn sidearm. -.-


Again, I'm all for the buffing of Commando and Logistic roles, but not at the expense of the Assault role.

Then you should see the need for that additional equipment slot, rather than a sidearm (which would most likely be a Bolt Pistol at that).
Unless you're pushing your own agenda.

And here I believed you'd be a tad more constructive. Oh well.

Um. Learn how to read maybe? I've been assault since Chromosome and Minmatar assault since 1.0. Your logic is invalid. As is your reading ability. Painfully obvious if you glance at the sig AND know how to read.

Speed and small hitbox on scouts on top of Ewar was ridiculous and I fought it every day. Now that they are scannable, their eHp plays a bigger role than it did before but good scouts still do very well for themselves.

TL;DR: Your arguments, all of them, are invalid.

Sidearm isn't as beneficial to a support role than Uplinks or Scanners.
Even without a bonus to the equipment, it's beneficial to have as a support role.
Not even the Gallente Logi uses more than 2 of its own EQ.

And I have been keeping up with Cross' thread up until page 74 or so.

Please, please keep it constructive because I'm all but losing respect for you I gained in that thread.

And now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Give CalLogi the sidearm.

Buff the speeds, and most of the rest of the base stats.

Don't swap for other existing, end of the day logis are still combat gimped relative to ALL other combat frames by virtue of (even after buffs) still significantly lower hp, no weapon bonuses and fitting limits.

If theres an issue with Assault bonuses and their utility handle that like it is- a separate issue .

End point is EVERY other frame has received a healthy round of buffing to keep pace with the last year and a half of meta-shifts except Logis. We got armor regen returned, sort of, but otherwise we're still living the penalties of an unrepeatable era. We need some small buffing tweaks and thats it. Small. But we need buffing.

The ******* balance work is done .
Final buffset time and lets move to other issues already! ****!

This very thread seems to be just here to appease the bad players.

As I've said every time it comes up the only "skin in the game" I have is that the ratio itself be maintained as a game wide foundation (or if a case is solidly built against it that the ratio be abandoned as a game wide thing when it comes to balancing roles, mods, races et al).

I have no stake whatsoever in what those ratios are or which role falls where within them so long as the ratios are applied universally and equally. Without a universal and equal application of foundational vision (be it this method or another) that applies to all roles rather than cherry picks a few things, balance becomes either a bad zero sum game or a crapshoot and we stay in the same rut we've been in for years.

To get more specific in reference to one of your prior posts, if speed, especially even a single metric of speed (be that strafe/move, sprint, or other) is enough to outweigh dps potential and raw HP then that to me screams that there is a large and fundamental problem. In the context of the ratio method, if speed really is this huge of a factor then the amount of eHP set to counter balance it needs to be scaled up accordingly until it is no longer meaningless and dismissible and the same ratio - whatever that may be - needs to be applied to all roles.

Make heavies fly like hot air balloons, scouts sparkle like unicorns, assaults have 1k HP per 1m of sprint speed, and logi slower than commandos for all I care, so long as there is a solid and universally applied method so that we have a context to actually and finally get some balance build rather than just the latest iteration of "king of the hill" FotM chasing.
Having one role/fit be "the thing" is bad balance it doesn't matter if that's the Cal Logi, the Amarr Sent, the Gal Scout, or the Min Assault. One role, or even worse one racial sub role, or still worse one fit type, being "the thing" is bad balance and always needs to die in fire. And without a consistent universal method it is harder to see that coming, takes longer to see it when it's present, and is an impediment to finding an effective solution that isn't just "nerf it into the ground" which is IMO never the ideal way to redress something being OP.

If the major concern here is "don't touch any assault numbers except maybe the min assault" then sure fine, touch none of them and simply balance the stats on all the other suits around the assault baseline, doesn't bother me in the least, just maintain a consistent and even handed approach game wide, because failing to do that is quite simply failing the health and quality of the game. Lack of consistent vision is a large part of what got us into this mess as we've both pointed out more than once, we've had years of it, time to give up on half measures and special cases, we need a consistent method or we're not going to get out of the messes we've been dealing with.

ElOperator I can respect most of your opinions, but the entire post you made, especially THIS is either the most naive, or the most DELIBERATELY self-serving post I have EVER seen you make.

There's nothing naive about recognizing the progress thats been made, especially in the last 9-12 months, in actually balancing this game and getting it play smoothly (the current connections/latency fiasco notwithstanding). The "self-service" in my post is the point of the post . The statement I'm addressing has been a basis of my perspective and I'm saying so. Now, again.


The balance isn't even close to done.

I disagree. Its not currently perfect, and theres definitely work to be done BUT the work that has been done so far has in many ways been effective. What were countless variables have become constants. The danger now is in turning constants back into new variables endlessly and because of that the overall gameplay never actually stabilizing and becoming a reliable game to play. We all want people to come, play, enjoy and spend money. Spending money happens most and best when people know what theyre buying.

Progression is only balanced if you think that new players are properly intended as stat padding gunfodder.

Until new players can remain in areas void of the supertrystompsquads they ARE gunfodder. My understanding of the phenomena is that "This is New Eden". I personally make it a point to not run fullproto fits pubs, advocated for creation of The Academy and even in the recent "Portal Testing" sticky brought up the creation under Special Contracts some sort of non-stat training area.

We still have no true balance between shields and armor. It's close but nowhere near resolved.

But its close.

AV/V is COMPLETELY UNBALANCED.

Hm. Despite your capslock I'll take this as what it hopefully is, which is that AV/V is still having its kinks worked out. I don't pilot much, though I'm working on it, so have very little relative input from that perspective, but I do AV. So " COMPLETELY UNBALANCED" as an overall assessment I can't agree with though I won't disagree with it either. Like most orher things tho its definitely been worked on and is in a much better place than it has been before. Room to improve? Sure.

The suits do not have equal utility within their class.

Why would they? Based on the variety of stats and bonuses the suits are largely worthwhile in some aspects and less so in others, with fitting flexibility allowing for either deeper specialization or broader generalization from the base.

The classes do not have equal utility with each other.

Same as above, Why whould they? The class utility is the class utility, if you're looking for other utility there're other classes.

Rock, Paper, Scissors. Pick one, and if you lose maybe pick something else.


The weapons are completely segregated by utility. If balance was even close to extant all of them would be used more or less equaly.

Again, Why would or even should all weapons be being used evenly? Any strategy game I've ever played, from chess to Command and Conquer to Axis and Allies theres never been any expectation that I would use or deploy assets evenly in a 1:1 fashion. My national military doesn't have or use strictly 1 machinegun: 1 ICBM. That we don't have only 16 weapons total with a limit of one type on the field at a time also begs the same question.

And the balance you say is almost there is A revolving door of jacked up and screwed.

Revolving door that just keeps spinning so long as work achieved becomes work scrapped in favor of work to be achieved that then becomes work scrapped in favor of .........

What rattati proposes is to set a baseline, so it can actually be determined what the value ratio between speed and HP actually is.

So long as the wiggle strafe is considered a viable tactic because it breaks hit detection, wedwe do not, and NEVER WILL be able to balance ANYTHING.

Wiggle strafe being viable because it breaks hit detection is a product of not yet finding a solution to the hit detection issue, not the other way around. And the more rewriting and deeper we go in redrawing stats without fixing hit detection the farther out of that hole we'll have to climb once a hit detection solution occurs. If hit detection (blue shielding) is unsolvable then sure, lets proceed. If its still able to be remedied then that should happen first else we're just trying to level a jenga tower while we bounce it on a trampoline.

Every single post telling rattati no has been the most thinly veiled cover for self interest from people who want their top fit to remain the top fit AT ALL COST.

This I take as a comment to the slayer/assault community since I primary as a logi and my logis are anything but top fit. And "top fit" in the sense I think you're stating it is far from any "goal" I have for my chosen class.

Welcome to the meta tree shaking again. Figure it out and try to help make progress because "this far and no farther" battle cries from people who enjoy a position of ability to at-will trash the majority of the playerbase through use of abundant resources and near unlimited ability to casually drop proto everything gets rapidly old and uninspiring.

Still no thoughts on the shield recharge delay on calmando or minmando?, i think ill come back later.

What the hell are you talking about? Try reading. Not to mention the fact that any balancing potentially effects all suits.

Typical anti-scout bias rears it's ugly head again.