Logged on the Big Board

Go figure, Rattati quick to buff armor suits when one person asks...

8 threads on boards regarding caldari shields being garbage and not a single reply.

Make sure Caldari has absolutely no choice but to sit behind a rock in the redline, both infantry and HAV.

Why not give madrugars a built in nitro booster because 'EVE' and who cares about balance?

How about remove all the stacking penalties from caldari shields, drastically increase damage threshold, and make the suits run faster, you know, since they need to run back to the redline as soon as they are spotted now that gallente have been green lit for turbo.

Haven't down the thread, but wouldn't it be logical at that point to make armor plates reduce stam.

No, in fact it would not, a nerf is a reduction, unless the heavy suit was in fact reduced in some fashion, then it is not a nerf.

Are you unfamiliar with meaning and cause/effect?

Staying out of the line of fire requires speed, and if that "line of fire" is defined by someone wielding a weapon, say an assault with a CR, AR, RR, or SCR, then that "line of fire" can advance on you, meaning your relative speed becomes very relevant indeed. Furthermore placing equipment (in a combat zone), staying out of the lines of fire (while saying directly in the thick of combat to rep and revive) et al most certainly do require some level of HP, what level of HP is directly proportional (inversely) to level of speed in many cases as you need enough speed to GTFO when under fire and enough HP to have sufficient time to employ your allotted amount of speed.

Without the minimal levels of combined speed and HP needed to at least flee effectively then any role is in a very poor state indeed. (Sententials can't flee very well, but they still highlight this point as they have enough HP to tank incoming fire and kill the hostile forces, that however is clearly not what we want a support role to do so agility makes sense).

A rather vivid description of why the racial assault skills need to be revisited. Wouldn't hurt to have a clear vision on how light weapons, especially the rifle types, are supposed to work 'naked' compared with how they should work when optimized by synergy with their proper racial assault.

+1 well said

So assaults get nerfed without giving gall and cal assaults a decent bonus? PC meta heavy spam with even more logis behind their @sses and scout spam. While assaults get pushed behind the curtain. Assault suits more like basic suits. There is nothing enticing about assaults suits.

None of their bonuses are something that helps them you know... assault! I am sorry but the reload and dispersion bonuses are not cutting the cheese for cal and gall assaults. Now they get nerfed. The assault class has no identity it doesn't know what they are.

No good bonuses, some of the weapons for each race do not even excel nor work properly with their own suits. Like, example the Rail rifle currently is being wielded by gall assaults such as myself because i know it is a much better option than to use an assault rifle. I have zero business to use a duvolle on my gall assault because it is just not worth it other than for fun. When it comes to PC in a competitive setting that is where everything changes. Play styles change, suits change, weapon's personality changes.

Why? why would i not use the gall's racial weapon in a competitive setting? because... it sucks. Simple as that. To use an AR on a gallente and shoot what it feels like a bb gun against a wall of tanked out proto heavies with infinite reps.The weapon even in CQC even though it is a CQC weapon it gets owned by the RR and CR. The racial bonus for it is just not good enough to help. Whilst my rail rifle in my gall assault it can get the job done against armor at close, medium, and long range so why should i bother to use a duvolle?

i could go on and on about the caldari and ammar but that is just my thoughts of how the assault class as right now they have no identity, we do not even got their racial bonuses right much less what their role in the battle field is. To me they are currently just there to fill the game with content and that's about it.

No two factors affect survivability more than HP and Speed. Where both are low, we find underpowered units. Where both are high, we find overpowered units. Where one is low, and the other is high we find balanced units (all else held constant). It stands to reason that a tradeoff should exist between these two survivability factors.

Out-of-the-box, a Logi has 200HP less than its Assault counterpart. This alone is sufficient reason, in my opinion, for them to be faster than Assaults.

Will a Logi built to slay truly have more HP than an Assault built to slay?
If so, how? Their base HP are separated by a 200HP spread.

Not to mention, fitting restrictions and recovery rates.

It'd be nice if we could get Cyrus to wire up protofits for test builds!

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Edit: The last thing I want to see is a return of Slayer Scouts or Slayer Logis. If this is even a remote possibility, I'd fully support implementing harsher plate penalties for one or both classes. I believe this can be done, as it's been done before with Scouts and armor-plate strafe penalty.

I've played longer than you, or a matter of fact anyone here. I was the first alpha tester and have played every build ever since

Logis need to be able to get out of danger, and follow their friends even if the logi is brick tanked for the occasion. A non tanked Logi can barely keep up with a brick assault right now.

His player name is a secret.
If you find it, you get banned.

Rattati said so himself :P

Can we apply the same modifiers to the Assault jump height?

I know i sound like a broken record, but I hate not being able to jump those goddamn short barriers!

If you look at the data, as I have, the differences are negligible. As explained in a previous post, I intend to balance through role bonuses and fitting costs.

I'm aware they exist, I'm saying the baseline is too low

likewise you shouldn't need them on a heavy to jump a curb

After digging around all day in stamina and regen, I can safely conclude that with regard to mobility, the Minmatar faction has, due to I believe a fundamental misconception, been double dipping in the speed jar.

The comparisons were done on both "distance covered until stamina pool is fully recharged" and "average speed while covering a fixed distance".

The intent with the design was to allow minmatar to travel approximately 5% faster, and Amarr approx 5% slower. Whereas, minmatar actually travels 10% faster and 15% faster than Amarr.

Now, I don't want to punish them, but bring the rest up.

For example, this means that Caldari Assault will now have 35 stam regen instead of 20, and Amarr 45, while Minmatar stays at 50.

With the reduction of normal speed, and differentation through sprinting, I hope we have a really good model as a foundation for speed.

The rules of thumb as applied to the Medium class now:

Mobility (stamina pool and recovery)
CA/GA = normal
Amarr= 5% lower
Minmatar = 5% higher

Sprint
Basic = normal = 1.4x
Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x
Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x

eHP
Basic = normal
Logistics = lower
Assault = higher

Speed
Basic = normal
Logistics = higher
Assault = lower

Shield Regen
on hold


While there is nothing gamebreaking about this increase, it will result in more fluidity across the spectrum and be a little more enjoyable.

This will have a cascading effect, as for example Light Basics are very out of shape in regard to most of these things. The other basics are more in line.

For shield regen, may I suggest lowering the recharger and energizer efficiency by 10% and setting the shield depleted recharge delay as the only time shields stop regenerating?

The lower HP pool and absolutely destructive effect by shield breaker weapons will keep them in line, while lowering the capacity of the rail rifle and combat rifle from casually blowing through the shallower HP pools.

The regen loss due to shield regen stopping from a stray shot can be crippling To a shield user. The only dropsuit that is shield dependent and viable in a firefight with scramblers or plasma in close is the calsent.

I'm not saying that shields should be equal in a brawl, but right now they fold up like a wet sack under fire, and by and large it's hard for me to determine why. The balance between shields and armor is close, but without the sniper outliers they feel like they need something.

Without more kill/spawn numbers from you on various weapon/suit combos I can only go on the oobservation that caldari shield fits feel squishy as hell, wheras the minmatar can get away with either armor fits with damage mods or a speed fit with a shield buffer or damage rack to tear up the battleground.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this topic, honestly. I'm actually very interested in the numbers and if I am wrong. But my feel for the assaults and logis is they have much less use on the field than the calsent except as snipers.

This is going to exacerbate the extant problem, sir.

I respectfully request that you not actively provide avenues for people to exploit the hit detection in the game.

This is first, last and all reasons in between why strafing is the most important consideration. Heimdallr69 copped to as much when I called them out on it. All of the others who are crying about the change have studiously ignored my commentary.

I have repeatedly tried to bring this to light, as it is easy to use and provably effective. The fact that this is the primary and most successful "tactic" it shows that strafe speed is a problem.

Being rewarded for standing in the open and juking back and forth two meters rapidly is quite frankly nonsensical, especially when it is MOST effective within the optimal ranges of the most destructive CQC weapons in the game.

This is how a calassault duels a heavy and doesn't take more than a quarter of their shields while utterly destroying his opponent at 20m versus a boundless HMG. This is not "skill" it is a mechanical failure on the part of either the client or the server.

Why do you think the Assault needs greater walking or strafe speed? As Breaking said standing in the open and wiggling around is not a viable strategy, nor should it ever be encouraged.

Faster sprint speed is significantly more suitable for the Assault Class. Since Assaults need to be on the front lines as often as possible and Logistics simply cannot use their equipment while sprinting.

[formatting is off because I wrote this in notepad] Took me a few reads to fully understand what you're saying but I think I've got a rudimentary understanding
of it.

You want balanced role, mods, races and if a case be made to go against a foundation or design that it
be solidly, logically built as a justifiable reason to go against the base methods. Without an equal application
of foundational vision that applies to everything, you feel that the balancing act becomes a shot in the dark
at what works.

I don't feel this is the case because we have done some pretty awesome stuff with balance without trying to
have everything on a curve or having trade-offs, and trying to adhere to that may work logically and
mathematically but a video game isn't all about logic or math, but sometimes how something -feels-

You feel as though speed being enough to outweigh DPS potential and raw HP is a fundamental problem. I feel that
this stems from different views on what Assaults actually are designed for, which is a consequence of it not
having a pre-determined role. It's abstract and left to interpretation, but neither of our interpretations are
necessarily wrong and they shouldn't be viewed as wrong.

This has always been the case but it's not something we can fix. Hit detection issues are and have always been
prevailant and yes, it's something we take advantage of -because- it is viable and is a fundamental part of speed
tanking.

There is an entire game skill dedicated to this, its
nothing new, Regnyum has a video on strafing tactics and a lot of high-end slayers are known for their ability
to strafe. Are you insinuating that we should work to ensure strafing is -NOT- a viable tactic as a whole?
If so, I'm okay with that, but it needs to apply to everyone, not just Assaults. It needs to apply to Logis and
Scouts as well.

I feel as though your obsession with a base method and a foundation is blinding you to the needs and desires
of your community. Yes, we understand hit detection is an issue. Yes, we understand that strafing is a problem.
Yes, we know that without strafing, we're entirely reliant on EHP. We also understand that many in the community
dislike this - but it is what part of the game's entire culture is founded on. As previously stated, if it is
an issue, than it needs to be quashed across the entire spectrum, not just with Assaults.

I understand and agree with your sentiment toward "The thing" but this isn't an effort to make Assaults "the thing"
it's an effort to keep Assaults a viable playstyle that, without a unique and applicable role, has largely
been associated with slayer-ship. Your community is asking to retain the things we value most with the role
that we have carved the Assault into. The values that were designed to pull us from other roles into the Assault
-because- we were using other roles for what we desired to do (and will continue to do so, even if that role is
with the Logistics).

It's not "don't touch any Assault numbers except the min assault", I'm not that obtuse, I'm saying that we
want the Assaults to retain their functionality and the role that we basically had to make ourselves because
they don't really have one that's unique to them. The proposal was to hit their speed. We said that wasn't
in our favor because we need speed. The proposal shifted to changing sprint speed. We said that wasn't
in our favor because movement/strafe speed is more valuable than sprint speed because we are combatants -
we don't need help getting TO the battle, we need help surviving it in the first place. Now we are being told
that our desire for that is a fundamental problem...

What can we do to make a happy compromise, here? What way can we retain what we desire and need to adhere to our
chosen specialization without moving/speccing into another suit while also going with the desire for a consistent
method?

Min Assault is SPLIT between tanks NOT dual tanked. Speed is the best defense for us. Makes us susceptible to Sheild and Armor based weapons. We also have to use a balance of Energizer/Recharger + Regulator + Armor rep to compete against High damage weapons Like RR and ScrR. Min Assault was already nerfed once. Caldari w Overtank Sheilds and Complex Ferroscale plates...CBT rifle almost stands still against it. Flanking + Speed + dual regen is what I have. Don't listen to this Clown!

Thanks for the spreadsheets Adipem. Regarding "my" model, I wasn't stating what I personally think should happen, but what Rattati suggested he might do to tweak his original proposal, based on feedback. So really this an approximate Rattati's latest proposal. Though it wasn't formal, and was likely to change. Still, it's the latest word. Except I believe Min assault speeds are a little higher on the sheet than his design.

If I was going to design a proposal, I'd go with this:

Reduce Assault hp by 50 (half as much reduction as Aeon's tab). Or maybe only around 30?

Reduce speed by about 0.3, which should get them onto the curve.

Give assaults a bonus to movement speed, 1% per level. At level 5 this should give them speeds almost equal to what they have now.

Increase logi and commando speeds as per Rattati's proposal.

Speed and hp together is now the assault suit's defining speciality. They fit the curve, but are bonused to break it. Allowing them to be light weapon, frontal attack slayers, but unlike commandos, they rely on speed more than brute strength and high defence. Scouts will be faster, and logis will be almost as fast, but neither have the hp, fitting, or bonuses to beat assaults at frontal assault.

Keep sprint and strafe multiplyers what they are now. Tweak stamina so it makes sense. Maybe tweak Min assault speed or hp a bit.

The speed hp curve will be good. Assaults have a role defined by their bonus. Assaults as a whole will suffer a small nerf, which hopefully will balance them when compared to scouts and sentinels. (Though cloaks probably still need fixing for true balance).

Ratatti's suggestion was to fit assaults onto the curve, but buff their sprint modifier so they can still be fast.

I don't like the idea of changing sprint modifiers as I think it's over complicated and not very transparent. Also, some people aren't happy with just having high sprint speed, they want high run speed aswell. So as an alternative I suggest giving assaults a speed bonus instead. Which would both be more transparent and maintain both good speed and sprint.

Deathwind, I hate to break it to you, but those attributes do not translate to 1:1 equivalent value.

At all.

Right now HP and speed have the sharpest curve to suitability just as profile and scans did four months ago.


The HP to speed is the hardest ratio to tweak to a balance. Once we have that baseline the other attributes can also be tweaked to fine-tune the suits to equality of utility.

The ewar system needs an overhaul in entire and I'm imagining Rattati eyeballing a broadsword whenever the prospect of trying to fix THAT disaster crosses his mind.

Smoothing the sharp, jagged edges of the HP/speed ratio gives a baseline and will show how much speed vs. HP matters. Then the curve can be expanded or contracted as needed to even out the values.

The type of balance you describe cannot be applied without establishing ratios so that the effective value of each raw stat is on a 1:1 scale since clearly the raw numbers do not hold 1:1 value.
2 dB points is not equal to 2 points of stamina, 2 m/s move speed is not equal to 2 HP, etc.
Until ratios are established we cannot define the actual content of those "5 points" you describe above and thus cannot divide them successfully.

We need ratios to be able to move toward the type of balancing method you describe, which is AFAIK why the OP exists, because being able to move towards the more full fundamental balance you describe is desirable, but it requires a context which is currently lacking. Thus applying a framework that compares the relative values of things that have similar effects (of course no two stats will ever have the same effect or they'd just be one stat) in this case general survivability within matches, is called for.

Baselines need to be established, for stats and for their modifiers (slot layouts and skills) but intermingling those two is a recipe for madness. It is find and good to say that all things should be considered, and you are quite right they should all be considered, but clearly considering them simultaneously without baseline frameworks in place is ineffective within a complex system like Dust, if it were effective we'd have had tighter balance a long time ago not a rotating FotM for years as things have been, especially not with the use and utility margins that have been recurrent.

So, how do we achieve balance by balancing only two characteristics? We don't. Just like we don't achieve balance by trying to (in computer parlance) 'brute force' a solution by weighing everything at once without a frame work to assess what value or effective weight each factor holds. Thus we need to take an iterative approach, as the OP does, by defining frameworks. With those in place we can weigh all factors.

Cheers,
Cross

Well personally speaking, I want an additional high slot on my Gallente Commando so I could have a damage mod at STD levels.

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Also as for forced equipment, it's really not going to do much. People will simply stack on 4 Compact Nanohives and call it a day. It's a crude solution that won't bear the degree of intended results that people want. The only way to properly get the intended effect is through fitting reduction bonuses.

Completely agree. Though I'm not sold on a specific multiplier ...

One more graph
Google Doc: Strafe Speed Multipliers

Plots strafe speeds at multipliers 0.9x (present) through 0.6x (chromosome). Includes two "baselines" for point of reference. The upper baseline is current MN Assault strafe speed; the lower baseline is current MN Sentinel strafe speed. A few observations ...

* At a strafe multiplier of 0.85, tomorrow's MN Assault (4.51 m/s) would strafe at roughly the same speed as today's MN Logi (4.5 m/s).

* At a strafe multiplier of 0.8, tomorrow's MN Assault (4.24 m/s) would strafe at roughly the same speed as today's GA/CA Logi (4.23 m/s).

* At a strafe multiplier of 0.7, tomorrow's MN Assault (3.71 m/s) would strafe only slightly faster than today's MN Sentinel (3.65 m/s).

* If we implemented Chromosome's sprint multiplier of 0.6, tomorrow's MN Assault (3.18 m/s) would strafe at lower speed than today's AM Sentinel (3.29 m/s).

If strafing is dealt with then whats gonna happen to scouts, thats their most used way survive.

Not sure you understand: Its pretty much impossible (if you are using a rifle) to kill anything over 500 hp quick enough to prevent it from turning around and shooting back. Without strafing this means that scouts will lose frequently and automatically to anyone with ~400+ ehp depending on how good the scouts aim is and how fast the target's reaction is. Removing strafing is a nerf to any scout that isnt shotgunning/plasma cannoning, and scouts will need to be buffed to compensate.